Sapcotts/Sapcote - some additional lines for RPA

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Michael Andrews-Reading

Sapcotts/Sapcote - some additional lines for RPA

Legg inn av Michael Andrews-Reading » 16 des 2004 23:52:33

The new RPA, on p. 275 sub Dinham, mentions Sir John Dinham of
Hartland (d. 1457/8) and lists among his children Elizabeth who was
mar. 3 times. RPA does not identify Elizabeth's progeny, but I
believe that Plantagenet descents can be tentatively traced from
Elizabeth, at least via her 2nd marriage to Sir John Sapcote, to a few
other individuals variously labeled Sapcote, Sapcott, or Sapcotts in
RPA and thus provide further Plantagenet descents for various colonial
immigrants. These lines are presently based on visitation pedigrees
and could benefit from more research, but they may be a starting point
for those who are interested.

Elizabeth Dinham; m. (2) Sir John Sapcote of Elton, Huntingdonshire
Sir Richard Sapcote of Elton; m. (1) Anne Vaux of Harrowden [RPA p.
562]
Thomas Sapcote of Burley, Rutlandshire; m. Jane Francis [or
Fraunceys]
Anne Sapcote; m. Anthony Brokesby of Leicestershire [RPA p. 157]

William Sapcote [brother of Thomas]; m. Anne Semark [or St. Mark]
Sir Guy Sapcote; m. Margaret Wolston
Anne Sapcote; m. (1) Sir John Broughton of Toddington [RPA p. 237 -
no colonial descents]
m. (2) Sir Richard Jerningham
m. (3) John Russell, 1st Earl of Bedford [RPA
p. 618]

These are presently based on admittedly secondary sources: Maddison's
Lincolnshire Pedigrees [HSP v. 52], the 1618/9 visitation of Rutland
[HSP v. 3], and the 1613 visitation of Huntingdonshire [pub. by the
Camden Society].

Interesting - I hadn't tied in Sapcotes in this fashion before.

However, I have doubts on the second part of the descent, to Ann, the
wife of the 1st Earl of Bedford.

Elizabeth Dinham's first marriage was to Fulk Bourchier, who I believe
died in 1479. She therefore died not marry Sir John Sapcote until
1479 at the earliest. The above states that their grandson, William
son of Sir Richard Sapcote, was in turn grandfather of Anne, Countess
of Bedford. But John Russell, 1st Earl of Bedford, was born circa
1486 (see, for instance, DNB), dying in 1555. Can his wife's
great-grandfather (in the fully paternal line, at that) have been born
after 1479? I wonder whether Anne's father, Sir Guy Sapcote, fits in
somewhere else - admittedly it's some years since I last looked at his
background.

Best wishes

Michael

John Higgins

Re: Sapcotts/Sapcote - some additional lines for RPA

Legg inn av John Higgins » 17 des 2004 02:11:01

Hmmmm.... I agree with you that the dates suggest that there's something
wrong with the Sapcotts pedigree in the visitation of Huntingdonshire which
gives the supposed ancestry of Anne Sapcote, wife of the the 1st Earl of
Bedford. But, based on notes in CP, I suspect that the problem is in the
parentage of her grandfather William rather her father Guy.

CP 2:75 note "e", sub Bedford, says the parents of Sir Guy Sapcote were Sir
William Sapcote and (in her 1st mar.) Anne Semark (who m. (2) Sir David
Phelip and d. as his [Sir David's] widow 1 Aug 1510). Anne Semark had
inherited the manor of Chenies in 1494, and the Russells acquired this
property via her granddaughter Anne Sapcote.

CP 5:509-10, sub Fitzwarin, says that Elizabeth Dinham mar. (2) before 7 Dec
1480 Sir John Sapcote, whose will was proved 28 May 1501, at which time his
son and heir Richard was aged 18 years and more. This gives a birth date of
ca. 1482 for Richard, while his wife Anne Vaux must have been born no
earlier than 1484/5 (her parents were mar. ca. 26 Feb 1483/4).

Anne Sapcote, Countess of Bedford, may have been younger than her husband
(said by CP to be b. ca. 1485), but probably not by much if any, since she
was mar. twice before marrying John Russell. So this puts her birthdate (at
best) only slightly after those of her purported great-grandparents Richard
and Anne - not very likely!! If one accepts the relationship of Sir William
and Sir Guy as laid out by CP, then Sir William is chronologically probably
a generation earlier than Sir John - but this is just a guess.

The problems in these dates would suggest a similar problem in the placement
of Sir William's purported brother Thomas, the father of Anne who mar.
Anthony Brokesby. Anthony is said to have been b. 1486. Assuming a similar
date for Anne, she clearly could not have been the granddaughter of Richard
Sapcote and Anne Vaux as the visitation pedigree indicates. In addition,
the dates would suggest that her father Thomas was in the generation of Sir
Guy rather than Sir William - but again just a guess.

So cancel these supposed additional lines, at least for now....yet another
object lesson in the pitfalls of relying on visitation pedigrees. [I did
say that these lines were tentative!!]


----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Andrews-Reading" <mjcar@btinternet.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2004 2:52 PM
Subject: Sapcotts/Sapcote - some additional lines for RPA


The new RPA, on p. 275 sub Dinham, mentions Sir John Dinham of
Hartland (d. 1457/8) and lists among his children Elizabeth who was
mar. 3 times. RPA does not identify Elizabeth's progeny, but I
believe that Plantagenet descents can be tentatively traced from
Elizabeth, at least via her 2nd marriage to Sir John Sapcote, to a few
other individuals variously labeled Sapcote, Sapcott, or Sapcotts in
RPA and thus provide further Plantagenet descents for various colonial
immigrants. These lines are presently based on visitation pedigrees
and could benefit from more research, but they may be a starting point
for those who are interested.

Elizabeth Dinham; m. (2) Sir John Sapcote of Elton, Huntingdonshire
Sir Richard Sapcote of Elton; m. (1) Anne Vaux of Harrowden [RPA p.
562]
Thomas Sapcote of Burley, Rutlandshire; m. Jane Francis [or
Fraunceys]
Anne Sapcote; m. Anthony Brokesby of Leicestershire [RPA p. 157]

William Sapcote [brother of Thomas]; m. Anne Semark [or St. Mark]
Sir Guy Sapcote; m. Margaret Wolston
Anne Sapcote; m. (1) Sir John Broughton of Toddington [RPA p. 237 -
no colonial descents]
m. (2) Sir Richard Jerningham
m. (3) John Russell, 1st Earl of Bedford [RPA
p. 618]

These are presently based on admittedly secondary sources: Maddison's
Lincolnshire Pedigrees [HSP v. 52], the 1618/9 visitation of Rutland
[HSP v. 3], and the 1613 visitation of Huntingdonshire [pub. by the
Camden Society].

Interesting - I hadn't tied in Sapcotes in this fashion before.

However, I have doubts on the second part of the descent, to Ann, the
wife of the 1st Earl of Bedford.

Elizabeth Dinham's first marriage was to Fulk Bourchier, who I believe
died in 1479. She therefore died not marry Sir John Sapcote until
1479 at the earliest. The above states that their grandson, William
son of Sir Richard Sapcote, was in turn grandfather of Anne, Countess
of Bedford. But John Russell, 1st Earl of Bedford, was born circa
1486 (see, for instance, DNB), dying in 1555. Can his wife's
great-grandfather (in the fully paternal line, at that) have been born
after 1479? I wonder whether Anne's father, Sir Guy Sapcote, fits in
somewhere else - admittedly it's some years since I last looked at his
background.

Best wishes

Michael

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