Recently I have been looking further into the poetry and connections of
Sancha de Ayala¹s troubadour ancestor, Pero Gomes Barroso.
A while back Chico & I worked out one line from Chico's favorite,
Abunazar Lovesendes, to Sancha de Ayala, via Pero Gomes Barroso's wife;
it was posted here over a year ago (I've added paragraph-level citations
to the _Livro de Linhagens do conde don Pedro_ (Lisboa, 1980), or to the
Livro Velho or Livro de Deao (Lisboa, 1980); or to the genealogies in
Mattoso¹s AEM article "A nobreza rural portuense...", reprinted in _A
nobreza medieval portuguesa_, (Lisboa, 1981)):
1. Abunazar Lovesendes = Unisco Godinhes [Mattoso VI.A]
2. [Fromarico] 'Cide' Abunazar = NN [Mattoso VI.A.4.e; II.e.]
3. Toderedo Fromariques 'Cid' = Faregia Forjaz, d. of Froia [Froila,
Fruela] Osoredes [Mattoso II.E]
4. Ausenda [Adosinda] Todereis = Nuno Soares 'Velho', of the Baião
[Mattoso II.F; LL 42.A.3]
5. Gontinha = Paio Godins 'de Azevedo' [Mattoso II.F.4, LL 52.A.2]
6. Mendo Pais Bofinho = Sancha Pais (d. of Paio Curvo). [LL 52.A.3]
7. Hermigio (Ermildo) Mendes de Azevedo = Elvira Viegas (dau. of an Egas
Moniz?) [this generation skipped in LL; corrected by Chico earlier]
8. Pedro Hermiges de Azevedo (= Velasquita Rodrigues, who was not mother
of 9) [LL 52.A.4]
9. Fernan Pires de Azevedo = NN [no wife assigned in LV, 52.A.4, or
30.AJ.4]
10. Chamoa Fernandez de Azevedo = Pero Gomes Barroso [LL 30.A.3, AJ.4]
11. Fernan Perez Barroso = Mencia Garcia de Sotomayor
12. Sancha Fernandez Barroso = Pero Lopez de Ayala
13. Fernan Perez de Ayala = Elvira Alvarez de Ceballos
14. Ines de Ayala = Diego Gomez
15. Sancha de Ayala
Well, I was poking around in the Livros de Linhagens and found another
one, which doesn't seem to have been posted at that time. It is one
generation shorter, and has only one difficult point.
1. Abunazar Lovesendes = Unisco Godinhes [Mattoso VI.A]
2. Trastemiro Abunazar = Dordia Suares [Mattoso VI.B]
3. Gonçalo Trastemires = Unisco Sisnandes [Mattoso VI.C]
4. Gotinha = Egas Gomez de Sousa [Mattoso VI.C.3; LL 22.A.7; 22.D.7]
5. Mem Viegas de Sousa = Elvira Fernandez [LL 22.D.8]
6. Chamoa Mendez = Gomez Mendez Guedano [LL 22.D.8; 30.A.1]
7. Egas Gomez = Urraca Vasquez d¹Ambia [LL 30.A.2]
8. Gomez Viegas de Basto [LL 30.A.3]
9. Pero Gomes Barroso = Chamoa Fernandez de Azevedo [LL 30.A.3, AJ.4]
10. Fernan Perez Barroso = Mencia Garcia de Sotomayor
11. Sancha Fernandez Barroso = Pero Lopez de Ayala
12. Fernan Perez de Ayala = Elvira Alvarez de Ceballos
13. Ines de Ayala = Diego Gomez
14. Sancha de Ayala
The one uncertainty is that the wife of Egas Gomes de Sousa is placed in
three different generations of the Trastemiro Abunazar (Maia) family by
the three early Livros de linhagens. The LL repeats confidently that she
was daughter of the great Goncalo Mendez, 'o Lidador', but this is
chronologically impossible. Mattoso places her, following the earlier
Livro de Deao, three generations earlier, as daughter of Goncalo
Trastemires (great-grandfather of the Lidador). But the livros all agree
she was from this kindred.
There are some interesting tidbits lurking here. Elvira Fernandez (gen.
5) is daughter of a Fernando Alfonso de Toledo, "who was a Moor, and the
king dom Alfonso [sc. Alfonso VI?] made him Christian because he was an
honored man and of great company; and was his godfather; and married him
to Urraca Gonzalez, dau. of Gonzalo Viegas de Marnel" [LL 22.D.8;
43.B.3]. The Marnel are found in part IX of Mattoso's article.
The maternal grandfather of Egas Gomes de Sousa (gen. 4) is said to be
one Munio Fernandez de Toro, "who was illegitimate son of king Fernando,
father of the Emperor" [i.e. Fernando el Magno, father of Alfonso VI]
[LL 22.A.6]. I haven't looked into this, but assume it's bogus.
I'm sorry the people listed above lack any identifying dates or
attestations. I'm putting together a Sancha ahnentafel which has as
much as I can glean on each person, in some cases filling out a
chronology and at least a couple of verifiable details. Hopefully a
draft will make the rounds sometime this winter.
Nat Taylor
a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/
Abunazar to Sancha de Ayala: another line
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Nathaniel Taylor
Re: Abunazar to Sancha de Ayala: another line
In article
<nathanieltaylor-0040E2.02023113122004@news1.east.earthlink.net>,
Nathaniel Taylor <nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net> wrote:
Oops. I meant to point out that this one is through Pero Gomes himself,
not his wife. It therefore bypasses the problem where Rodriguez
Marquina seems to imply that his wife was not from the same Azevedo line.
Nat Taylor
a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/
<nathanieltaylor-0040E2.02023113122004@news1.east.earthlink.net>,
Nathaniel Taylor <nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net> wrote:
Recently I have been looking further into the poetry and connections of
Sancha de Ayala¹s troubadour ancestor, Pero Gomes Barroso.
A while back Chico & I worked out one line from Chico's favorite,
Abunazar Lovesendes, to Sancha de Ayala, via Pero Gomes Barroso's wife...
Well, I was poking around in the Livros de Linhagens and found another
one...
Oops. I meant to point out that this one is through Pero Gomes himself,
not his wife. It therefore bypasses the problem where Rodriguez
Marquina seems to imply that his wife was not from the same Azevedo line.
Nat Taylor
a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/
-
Francisco Antonio Doria
Re: Abunazar to Sancha de Ayala: another line
I've been more of a lurker of late due to personal
problems, but I'm printing this out and will offer
some comments, if any.
I'm also posting it to the Portugal-Gen list.
fa
--- Nathaniel Taylor <nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net>
wrote:
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
problems, but I'm printing this out and will offer
some comments, if any.
I'm also posting it to the Portugal-Gen list.
fa
--- Nathaniel Taylor <nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net>
wrote:
Recently I have been looking further into the poetry
and connections of
Sancha de Ayala¹s troubadour ancestor, Pero Gomes
Barroso.
A while back Chico & I worked out one line from
Chico's favorite,
Abunazar Lovesendes, to Sancha de Ayala, via Pero
Gomes Barroso's wife;
it was posted here over a year ago (I've added
paragraph-level citations
to the _Livro de Linhagens do conde don Pedro_
(Lisboa, 1980), or to the
Livro Velho or Livro de Deao (Lisboa, 1980); or to
the genealogies in
Mattoso¹s AEM article "A nobreza rural
portuense...", reprinted in _A
nobreza medieval portuguesa_, (Lisboa, 1981)):
1. Abunazar Lovesendes = Unisco Godinhes [Mattoso
VI.A]
2. [Fromarico] 'Cide' Abunazar = NN [Mattoso
VI.A.4.e; II.e.]
3. Toderedo Fromariques 'Cid' = Faregia Forjaz, d.
of Froia [Froila,
Fruela] Osoredes [Mattoso II.E]
4. Ausenda [Adosinda] Todereis = Nuno Soares
'Velho', of the Baião
[Mattoso II.F; LL 42.A.3]
5. Gontinha = Paio Godins 'de Azevedo' [Mattoso
II.F.4, LL 52.A.2]
6. Mendo Pais Bofinho = Sancha Pais (d. of Paio
Curvo). [LL 52.A.3]
7. Hermigio (Ermildo) Mendes de Azevedo = Elvira
Viegas (dau. of an Egas
Moniz?) [this generation skipped in LL; corrected by
Chico earlier]
8. Pedro Hermiges de Azevedo (= Velasquita
Rodrigues, who was not mother
of 9) [LL 52.A.4]
9. Fernan Pires de Azevedo = NN [no wife assigned
in LV, 52.A.4, or
30.AJ.4]
10. Chamoa Fernandez de Azevedo = Pero Gomes Barroso
[LL 30.A.3, AJ.4]
11. Fernan Perez Barroso = Mencia Garcia de
Sotomayor
12. Sancha Fernandez Barroso = Pero Lopez de Ayala
13. Fernan Perez de Ayala = Elvira Alvarez de
Ceballos
14. Ines de Ayala = Diego Gomez
15. Sancha de Ayala
Well, I was poking around in the Livros de Linhagens
and found another
one, which doesn't seem to have been posted at that
time. It is one
generation shorter, and has only one difficult
point.
1. Abunazar Lovesendes = Unisco Godinhes [Mattoso
VI.A]
2. Trastemiro Abunazar = Dordia Suares [Mattoso
VI.B]
3. Gonçalo Trastemires = Unisco Sisnandes [Mattoso
VI.C]
4. Gotinha = Egas Gomez de Sousa [Mattoso VI.C.3; LL
22.A.7; 22.D.7]
5. Mem Viegas de Sousa = Elvira Fernandez [LL
22.D.8]
6. Chamoa Mendez = Gomez Mendez Guedano [LL 22.D.8;
30.A.1]
7. Egas Gomez = Urraca Vasquez d¹Ambia [LL 30.A.2]
8. Gomez Viegas de Basto [LL 30.A.3]
9. Pero Gomes Barroso = Chamoa Fernandez de Azevedo
[LL 30.A.3, AJ.4]
10. Fernan Perez Barroso = Mencia Garcia de
Sotomayor
11. Sancha Fernandez Barroso = Pero Lopez de Ayala
12. Fernan Perez de Ayala = Elvira Alvarez de
Ceballos
13. Ines de Ayala = Diego Gomez
14. Sancha de Ayala
The one uncertainty is that the wife of Egas Gomes
de Sousa is placed in
three different generations of the Trastemiro
Abunazar (Maia) family by
the three early Livros de linhagens. The LL repeats
confidently that she
was daughter of the great Goncalo Mendez, 'o
Lidador', but this is
chronologically impossible. Mattoso places her,
following the earlier
Livro de Deao, three generations earlier, as
daughter of Goncalo
Trastemires (great-grandfather of the Lidador). But
the livros all agree
she was from this kindred.
There are some interesting tidbits lurking here.
Elvira Fernandez (gen.
5) is daughter of a Fernando Alfonso de Toledo, "who
was a Moor, and the
king dom Alfonso [sc. Alfonso VI?] made him
Christian because he was an
honored man and of great company; and was his
godfather; and married him
to Urraca Gonzalez, dau. of Gonzalo Viegas de
Marnel" [LL 22.D.8;
43.B.3]. The Marnel are found in part IX of
Mattoso's article.
The maternal grandfather of Egas Gomes de Sousa
(gen. 4) is said to be
one Munio Fernandez de Toro, "who was illegitimate
son of king Fernando,
father of the Emperor" [i.e. Fernando el Magno,
father of Alfonso VI]
[LL 22.A.6]. I haven't looked into this, but assume
it's bogus.
I'm sorry the people listed above lack any
identifying dates or
attestations. I'm putting together a Sancha
ahnentafel which has as
much as I can glean on each person, in some cases
filling out a
chronology and at least a couple of verifiable
details. Hopefully a
draft will make the rounds sometime this winter.
Nat Taylor
a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
-
Todd A. Farmerie
Re: Abunazar to Sancha de Ayala: another line
Nathaniel Taylor wrote:
When this line was posted and discussed before (e.g. back in Feb.
on '98), another potential problem was raised - that the Livros
give Gomes Mendes Guedao but one wife, and hence the maternity of
Egas Gomes would not be in question, but Mattoso appears to have
found a second, opening up the possibility that Egas Gomes was
not son of Chamoa Mendes de Sousa. No resolution was ever
reached (and I haven't looked at it since, so I don't recall the
exact details).
Hmmm. Interesting qualifications for baptism.
Certainly the chronology is troublesome - the above places
Fernando Alfonso an honored man and of great company (and hence
presumably not a juvenile) as a contemporary of Alfonso VI and in
generation 4, above, while Fernando I would be in gen. 1.
taf
Well, I was poking around in the Livros de Linhagens and found another
one, which doesn't seem to have been posted at that time. It is one
generation shorter, and has only one difficult point.
1. Abunazar Lovesendes = Unisco Godinhes [Mattoso VI.A]
2. Trastemiro Abunazar = Dordia Suares [Mattoso VI.B]
3. Gonçalo Trastemires = Unisco Sisnandes [Mattoso VI.C]
4. Gotinha = Egas Gomez de Sousa [Mattoso VI.C.3; LL 22.A.7; 22.D.7]
5. Mem Viegas de Sousa = Elvira Fernandez [LL 22.D.8]
6. Chamoa Mendez = Gomez Mendez Guedano [LL 22.D.8; 30.A.1]
7. Egas Gomez = Urraca Vasquez d¹Ambia [LL 30.A.2]
8. Gomez Viegas de Basto [LL 30.A.3]
9. Pero Gomes Barroso = Chamoa Fernandez de Azevedo [LL 30.A.3, AJ.4]
10. Fernan Perez Barroso = Mencia Garcia de Sotomayor
11. Sancha Fernandez Barroso = Pero Lopez de Ayala
12. Fernan Perez de Ayala = Elvira Alvarez de Ceballos
13. Ines de Ayala = Diego Gomez
14. Sancha de Ayala
The one uncertainty is that the wife of Egas Gomes de Sousa is placed in
three different generations of the Trastemiro Abunazar (Maia) family by
the three early Livros de linhagens.
When this line was posted and discussed before (e.g. back in Feb.
on '98), another potential problem was raised - that the Livros
give Gomes Mendes Guedao but one wife, and hence the maternity of
Egas Gomes would not be in question, but Mattoso appears to have
found a second, opening up the possibility that Egas Gomes was
not son of Chamoa Mendes de Sousa. No resolution was ever
reached (and I haven't looked at it since, so I don't recall the
exact details).
There are some interesting tidbits lurking here. Elvira Fernandez (gen.
5) is daughter of a Fernando Alfonso de Toledo, "who was a Moor, and the
king dom Alfonso [sc. Alfonso VI?] made him Christian because he was an
honored man and of great company;
Hmmm. Interesting qualifications for baptism.
The maternal grandfather of Egas Gomes de Sousa (gen. 4) is said to be
one Munio Fernandez de Toro, "who was illegitimate son of king Fernando,
father of the Emperor" [i.e. Fernando el Magno, father of Alfonso VI]
[LL 22.A.6]. I haven't looked into this, but assume it's bogus.
Certainly the chronology is troublesome - the above places
Fernando Alfonso an honored man and of great company (and hence
presumably not a juvenile) as a contemporary of Alfonso VI and in
generation 4, above, while Fernando I would be in gen. 1.
taf
-
Nathaniel Taylor
Re: Abunazar to Sancha de Ayala: another line
In article <41BD6089.5070009@interfold.com>,
"Todd A. Farmerie" <farmerie@interfold.com> wrote:
I thought about this: could be Alfonso the Battler of Aragon, or Alfonso
VII or VIII of Castile (Toledo was held by an unbroken succession of
Alfonsos through the mid 12th century. I have a denarius of an Alfonso
from Toledo, and the same dies were used by all the Alfonsos).
Nat Taylor
a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/
"Todd A. Farmerie" <farmerie@interfold.com> wrote:
The maternal grandfather of Egas Gomes de Sousa (gen. 4) is said to be
one Munio Fernandez de Toro, "who was illegitimate son of king Fernando,
father of the Emperor" [i.e. Fernando el Magno, father of Alfonso VI]
[LL 22.A.6]. I haven't looked into this, but assume it's bogus.
Certainly the chronology is troublesome - the above places
Fernando Alfonso an honored man and of great company (and hence
presumably not a juvenile) as a contemporary of Alfonso VI and in
generation 4, above, while Fernando I would be in gen. 1.
I thought about this: could be Alfonso the Battler of Aragon, or Alfonso
VII or VIII of Castile (Toledo was held by an unbroken succession of
Alfonsos through the mid 12th century. I have a denarius of an Alfonso
from Toledo, and the same dies were used by all the Alfonsos).
Nat Taylor
a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/
-
Nathaniel Taylor
Re: Abunazar to Sancha de Ayala: another line
In article <41BD6089.5070009@interfold.com>,
"Todd A. Farmerie" <farmerie@interfold.com> wrote:
Thanks; I should have added to this: Mattoso [Nobreza rural portuense,
I.D.4] cites the Livro de Deao for this other wife (Mayor Pais). The
Livro de Deao focuse on this lineage, and does assign Gomes Mendes
Guedao both her and the Sousa wife in different places. But it assigns
them each distinct children, and unequivocally makes Egas Gomes son of
the Sousa wife in each place they are mentioned, which also makes sense
onomastically (her maternal grandfather was an Egas Gomes). See LD
2.A.1; 6.T.5, etc.
This, of course, with a grain of salt: so many of these people have
little independent attestation outside the livros.
Nat Taylor
a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/
"Todd A. Farmerie" <farmerie@interfold.com> wrote:
When this line was posted and discussed before (e.g. back in Feb.
on '98), another potential problem was raised - that the Livros
give Gomes Mendes Guedao but one wife, and hence the maternity of
Egas Gomes would not be in question, but Mattoso appears to have
found a second, opening up the possibility that Egas Gomes was
not son of Chamoa Mendes de Sousa. No resolution was ever
reached (and I haven't looked at it since, so I don't recall the
exact details).
Thanks; I should have added to this: Mattoso [Nobreza rural portuense,
I.D.4] cites the Livro de Deao for this other wife (Mayor Pais). The
Livro de Deao focuse on this lineage, and does assign Gomes Mendes
Guedao both her and the Sousa wife in different places. But it assigns
them each distinct children, and unequivocally makes Egas Gomes son of
the Sousa wife in each place they are mentioned, which also makes sense
onomastically (her maternal grandfather was an Egas Gomes). See LD
2.A.1; 6.T.5, etc.
This, of course, with a grain of salt: so many of these people have
little independent attestation outside the livros.
Nat Taylor
a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/
-
Nathaniel Taylor
Re: Abunazar to Sancha de Ayala: another line
In article
<nathanieltaylor-AFD6BB.08224313122004@news1.east.earthlink.net>,
Nathaniel Taylor <nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net> wrote:
Oh! I now find this exact same line, posted by you on 5 Feb 1998. Oh,
well...
There is also your post of 1 May 2002, quoting a passage in another
Mattoso work (Ricos-homens...) on Gomes Mendes Guedao. I don't see a
problem with this marriage: again, the livros all assign maternity of
Egas Gomes to the Sousa wife of Gomes Mendes Guedao. Mattoso
(_Ricos-homens_) doesn't offer any chronology or documentation that
impugns it.
Nat Taylor
a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/
<nathanieltaylor-AFD6BB.08224313122004@news1.east.earthlink.net>,
Nathaniel Taylor <nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net> wrote:
In article <41BD6089.5070009@interfold.com>,
"Todd A. Farmerie" <farmerie@interfold.com> wrote:
When this line was posted and discussed before (e.g. back in Feb.
on '98), another potential problem was raised - that the Livros
give Gomes Mendes Guedao but one wife, and hence the maternity of
Egas Gomes would not be in question, but Mattoso appears to have
found a second, opening up the possibility that Egas Gomes was
not son of Chamoa Mendes de Sousa. No resolution was ever
reached (and I haven't looked at it since, so I don't recall the
exact details).
Oh! I now find this exact same line, posted by you on 5 Feb 1998. Oh,
well...
There is also your post of 1 May 2002, quoting a passage in another
Mattoso work (Ricos-homens...) on Gomes Mendes Guedao. I don't see a
problem with this marriage: again, the livros all assign maternity of
Egas Gomes to the Sousa wife of Gomes Mendes Guedao. Mattoso
(_Ricos-homens_) doesn't offer any chronology or documentation that
impugns it.
Nat Taylor
a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/