When did these Irish people live?

Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper

Svar
Leo van de Pas

When did these Irish people live?

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 12 des 2004 21:41:02

Connor O'Brien, 3rd Earl of Thomond was married to Una O'Brien and I would like to know when her parents were born and died. Father is in CP XII/1 705.

Kelsey Williams kindly provided me with descriptions from "The Annals of the Four Masters" from which we obtain that Una was a daughter of Turlough Mac-I-Brien Ara and of More, daughter of Donough O'Carroll, Prince of Ely O'Carroll.

The only date we have is that Una's father died in February 1601. "There was no other lord of a territory in Ireland so old as he on the night he died." Would anyone know when Turlough and his wife were born?

With many thanks.
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

Matthew Harley

Re: When did these Irish people live?

Legg inn av Matthew Harley » 12 des 2004 22:46:32

Leo van de Pas wrote:
Connor O'Brien, 3rd Earl of Thomond was married to Una O'Brien and I would like to know when her parents were born and died. Father is in CP XII/1 705.

Kelsey Williams kindly provided me with descriptions from "The Annals of the Four Masters" from which we obtain that Una was a daughter of Turlough Mac-I-Brien Ara and of More, daughter of Donough O'Carroll, Prince of Ely O'Carroll.

The only date we have is that Una's father died in February 1601. "There was no other lord of a territory in Ireland so old as he on the night he died." Would anyone know when Turlough and his wife were born?

Does this help?

http://www.mostyn.com/Genealogy/Patrick ... HTM#P11513

According to this site he seems to have been the son of:

46052 Mortogh Casch O'BRIEN-ARA. AKA: Muircheartach,
Murtough.

Mother not known/mentioned.

Matt Harley

John Higgins

Re: When did these Irish people live?

Legg inn av John Higgins » 13 des 2004 00:01:01

FWIW, there is a chart pedigree (with limited information) of the O'Briens
of Ara (and other branches of the O'Briens) in "History of the O'Briens:
from Brian Boroimhe AD 1000 to AD 1945", by Hon. Donough O'Brien (pub.
1949). It shows the following information for that branch:

Turloch Mac Brien Ara (d. 1601), m. Mor, dau. of Donough O'Carroll of Ely
(son of John O'Carroll of Muirratagh)

son of Mortogh Casch O'Brien

son of Donald Mor O'Brien (d. 1508)

son of Teige O'Brien (d. 1474)

son of Turlogh O'Brien (d. 1399), m. Honora, a dau. of the family of Barry
"Oge" of Buttevant

son of Murrough na Raithnidh O'Brien (d. 1383), m. More O'Kennedy of Ormonde

son of Brian O'Brien of Ara (d. 1350), m. dau. of Henry Burke

son of Donald O'Brien, m. Margaret, dau. of Turlogh Duff MacMahon

son of Brian Ruahd O'Brien, King of Thomond (d. 1272 or 1277) [said to be
brother of the ancestor of the Earls of Thomond and Barons Inchiquin]

[eight more intervening generations before Brian Boroimhe, aka Brian Boru]

I have no idea how correct this is, but I'd guess that it accurately states
the "traditional" pedigree for the family, likely based on "The Four
Masters". The author makes the claim that the current O'Brien baronets
(covered in BP) are descended from the O'Briens of Ara [or Arragh], but BP
doesn't show this descent for that family.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Matthew Harley" <harley@eircom.net>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 12, 2004 1:46 PM
Subject: Re: When did these Irish people live?


Leo van de Pas wrote:

Connor O'Brien, 3rd Earl of Thomond was married to Una O'Brien and I
would like to know when her parents were born and died. Father is in CP

XII/1 705.
Kelsey Williams kindly provided me with descriptions from "The Annals of
the Four Masters" from which we obtain that Una was a daughter of Turlough

Mac-I-Brien Ara and of More, daughter of Donough O'Carroll, Prince of Ely
O'Carroll.
The only date we have is that Una's father died in February 1601. "There
was no other lord of a territory in Ireland so old as he on the night he

died." Would anyone know when Turlough and his wife were born?

11513
According to this site he seems to have been the son of:

46052 Mortogh Casch O'BRIEN-ARA. AKA: Muircheartach,
Murtough.

Mother not known/mentioned.

Matt Harley

Kelsey Williams

Re: When did these Irish people live?

Legg inn av Kelsey Williams » 13 des 2004 02:57:53

Hello,

Thanks for posting this pedigree. I suspect you are right concerning
its provenance. I've posted relevant extracts from the AFM and some
comments below:


"John Higgins" wrote:
FWIW, there is a chart pedigree (with limited information) of the
O'Briens
of Ara (and other branches of the O'Briens) in "History of the
O'Briens:
from Brian Boroimhe AD 1000 to AD 1945", by Hon. Donough O'Brien
(pub.
1949). It shows the following information for that branch:

Turloch Mac Brien Ara (d. 1601), m. Mor, dau. of Donough O'Carroll of
Ely
(son of John O'Carroll of Muirratagh)

AFM1601.10 Mac-I-Brien Ara, namely, Turlough, the son of Murtough,son
of Donnell,son of Teige,died in the month of February.There was no
other lord of a territory in Ireland so old as he on the night he died.
He was an active, warlike man, who had led his followers in safety from
every terrritory into which he had gone,and seldom had any troop who
had entered his territory returned from him scathless; a man who had
defended the rugged and hilly district which he had possessed until his
death. He was interred in his own fortified residence of
Baile-an-chaislen.

son of Mortogh Casch O'Brien

son of Donald Mor O'Brien (d. 1508)

AFM1508.23 Donnell (i.e. Mac-I-Brian-Ara), the son of Teige, son of
Turlough, son of Murrough-na-Raithnighe, a distinguished captain, who
was kind to friends, and fierce to enemies, died, having spent nearly
one hundred years in nobleness and illustrious deeds.

son of Teige O'Brien (d. 1474)

AFM1474.14 Teige O'Brien, Lord of Ara, died.

son of Turlogh O'Brien (d. 1399), m. Honora, a dau. of the family of
Barry
"Oge" of Buttevant

AFM1399.5 Turlough, the son of Murrough (i.e. Murrough Raithnighe)
O'Brien, died.

It seems possible that the _History of the O'Briens_ is basing this
pedigree on MS. H.1.7 in Trinity College, Dublin, which gives a
pedigree of this family. It was also used by O'Hart who gives almost
exactly the same account except without dates. O'Hart records (p. 171
of the "Limited American Edition" of _Irish Pedigrees_) that
Toirdhealbhach married "Honoria, dau. of De Barry Oge, of Buttevant."

son of Murrough na Raithnidh O'Brien (d. 1383), m. More O'Kennedy of
Ormonde


AFM1383.9 Murrough na-Raithnighe O'Brien, More, the daughter of
Murrough O'Madden, and wife of Mac William of Clanrickard (Richard);
and Joanna, the daughter of the Earl of Ormond, and wife of Teige
O'Carroll, Lord of Ely, died of it the plague.

O'Hart, p. 171: "Mor, dau. of O'Kennedy, of Ormond."

son of Brian O'Brien of Ara (d. 1350), m. dau. of Henry Burke

AFM1350.5 Brian, the son of Donnell, son of Brian Roe O'Brien, was
treacherously slain by the sons of Lorcan Mac Lorcan. Of him was said:

1. Pity the only son of Donnell of the meeting;
Pity the heir of Brian Borumha;
Pity his going as was not expected;
Pity the Clann-Keogh should triumph over him.

AFM1350.6 Turlough Oge O'Brien killed sixteen of the Clann-Keogh in
revenge of this evil deed, and despoiled them, besides, of their lands
and cattle.

O'Hart, p. 171: "dau. of Henry de Burgo."

son of Donald O'Brien, m. Margaret, dau. of Turlogh Duff MacMahon

O'Hart, p. 171: "Margaret, dau. of Turlogh Dubh MacMahon, of
Clondarala."

son of Brian Ruahd O'Brien, King of Thomond (d. 1272 or 1277) [said
to be
brother of the ancestor of the Earls of Thomond and Barons Inchiquin]

AFM1277.2

Brian Roe O'Brien, Lord of Thomond, was treacherously taken by the son
of the Earl of Clare, and afterwards drawn between horses, and this
after both had entered into gossipred with each other, and taken vows
by bells and relics to retain mutual friendship.

[eight more intervening generations before Brian Boroimhe, aka Brian
Boru]

I have no idea how correct this is, but I'd guess that it accurately
states
the "traditional" pedigree for the family, likely based on "The Four
Masters". The author makes the claim that the current O'Brien
baronets
(covered in BP) are descended from the O'Briens of Ara [or Arragh],
but BP
doesn't show this descent for that family.

The earlier part of this pedigree, down to Toirdhealbhach Mac Ui
Bhriain Aradh (+1399) is confirmed by the _New History of Ireland_,
Vol. IX, p. 152 (chart pedigree of the O'Briens of Thomond) which also
states that Brian Ruad (+1277) was a younger son of Conchobar na
Siudaine, King of Thomond, and thus descended from Brian Boruma.

Sincerely,
Kelsey J. Williams

----- Original Message -----
From: "Matthew Harley" <harley@eircom.net
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Sunday, December 12, 2004 1:46 PM
Subject: Re: When did these Irish people live?


Leo van de Pas wrote:

Connor O'Brien, 3rd Earl of Thomond was married to Una O'Brien
and I
would like to know when her parents were born and died. Father is in
CP
XII/1 705.

Kelsey Williams kindly provided me with descriptions from "The
Annals of
the Four Masters" from which we obtain that Una was a daughter of
Turlough
Mac-I-Brien Ara and of More, daughter of Donough O'Carroll, Prince of
Ely
O'Carroll.

The only date we have is that Una's father died in February 1601.
"There
was no other lord of a territory in Ireland so old as he on the night
he
died." Would anyone know when Turlough and his wife were born?

Does this help?



http://www.mostyn.com/Genealogy/Patrick ... _006.HTM#P
11513

According to this site he seems to have been the son of:

46052 Mortogh Casch O'BRIEN-ARA. AKA: Muircheartach,
Murtough.

Mother not known/mentioned.

Matt Harley

Svar

Gå tilbake til «soc.genealogy.medieval»