[originally posted to Gen-Med - reposted on SGM due to gateway failure]
CP 8:524, in the biography of John Marny [or Marney], 2nd Baron Marny,
says that his 2nd wife was Bridget, widow of William Findern of Little
Horkesley, Essex, and dau. of Sir William Waldegrave by Margery
Wentworth. The newly published RPA, apparently based on visitation
pedigrees, on page 741 splits this Bridget into two daughters of Sir
William: Mary the wife of John, Baron Marney, and Bridget the wife of
Sir John [not William] Findern.
It appears from footnotes in CP that Bridget's will does refer to her
two husbands. Accordingly, I wonder if there is any evidence other
than the visitation pedigrees (primary sources, maybe?) for RPA's
conclusion that there were two daughters here rather than one with two
marriages.
Marney/Waldegrave - a CP correction from RPA?
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Cristopher Nash
Re: Marney/Waldegrave - a CP correction from RPA?
"John Higgins" <jthiggins@sbcglobal.net> wrote --
I haven't looked at the RPA passage but unless there's some ambiguity
there that you haven't mentioned, it looks probably to be unreliable.
While of the 2 wills of Sir William Waldegrave (26 Jan 1524 & 6 July
1525, proved 6 Mar 1527) as a codicil but revoking all previous
wills) only the first refers to 'my daughter Lady Marny' - without a
given name - the will of wife Margery (7 Mar 1539, proved 6 May 1540)
refers to her daughter 'Lady Marny' (mentioned 4 times) twice as
'Bridgett'. In none of these 3 lengthy and detailed documents is
there any mention of a Mary or of any Findern. (Other daughters
Jane, Ann(e), Dorothy/Dorothe, Elizabeth, Julian and Margery are
mentioned.) This doesn't of itself seem to me to rule out the
possibility that Bridget may have previously married a Findern or
indeed that a Mary da. of Sir William and Margery (Wentworth)
Waldegrave may at some time have been married to a John Marn(e)y, but
at least in the period 1524-39 the former seems impossible and the
latter probably unlikely. [Documents cited as transcribed in G C
Clopton, The Ancs & Descs of William Clopton of York Co, VA (1984).]
There is the interesting feature that only Margery's will refers
daughter Margery and speaks of her unusually as "Margary Waldegrave
daughter of Sir William Waldegrave, Knt.'; I'm not certain why, but
you're welcome top play with the idea - though unsupported by any
other evidence I've seen - that Sir William may have had an earlier
wife or consort, yielding also a da. Mary. If you like I can look
into my Marney data for more help.
Cheers,
Cris
--
CP 8:524, in the biography of John Marny [or Marney], 2nd Baron
Marny, says that his 2nd wife was Bridget, widow of William Findern
of Little Horkesley, Essex, and dau. of Sir William Waldegrave by
Margery Wentworth. The newly published RPA, apparently based on
visitation pedigrees, on page 741 splits this Bridget into two
daughters of Sir William: Mary the wife of John, Baron Marney, and
Bridget the wife of Sir John [not William] Findern.
It appears from footnotes in CP that Bridget's will does refer to
her two husbands. Accordingly, I wonder if there is any evidence
other than the visitation pedigrees (primary sources, maybe?) for
RPA's conclusion that there were two daughters here rather than one
with two marriages.
I haven't looked at the RPA passage but unless there's some ambiguity
there that you haven't mentioned, it looks probably to be unreliable.
While of the 2 wills of Sir William Waldegrave (26 Jan 1524 & 6 July
1525, proved 6 Mar 1527) as a codicil but revoking all previous
wills) only the first refers to 'my daughter Lady Marny' - without a
given name - the will of wife Margery (7 Mar 1539, proved 6 May 1540)
refers to her daughter 'Lady Marny' (mentioned 4 times) twice as
'Bridgett'. In none of these 3 lengthy and detailed documents is
there any mention of a Mary or of any Findern. (Other daughters
Jane, Ann(e), Dorothy/Dorothe, Elizabeth, Julian and Margery are
mentioned.) This doesn't of itself seem to me to rule out the
possibility that Bridget may have previously married a Findern or
indeed that a Mary da. of Sir William and Margery (Wentworth)
Waldegrave may at some time have been married to a John Marn(e)y, but
at least in the period 1524-39 the former seems impossible and the
latter probably unlikely. [Documents cited as transcribed in G C
Clopton, The Ancs & Descs of William Clopton of York Co, VA (1984).]
There is the interesting feature that only Margery's will refers
daughter Margery and speaks of her unusually as "Margary Waldegrave
daughter of Sir William Waldegrave, Knt.'; I'm not certain why, but
you're welcome top play with the idea - though unsupported by any
other evidence I've seen - that Sir William may have had an earlier
wife or consort, yielding also a da. Mary. If you like I can look
into my Marney data for more help.
Cheers,
Cris
--
-
John Higgins
Re: Marney/Waldegrave - a CP correction from RPA?
Thanks for posting this interesting information on the wills of Sir William
Waldegrave and his wife Margery, which appear to clearly show that their
daughter Bridget was the wife of John, Lord Marny and that there was no
daughter Mary as indicated in RPA.
You metnion that the dates of the wills of Sir William and his wife make it
clear that, at least during the period of 1524-1539, Bridget could not have
been married to a Findern. In fact, CP 8:524 says her Findern marriage was
much earlier, since her 1st husband William Findern d. [vp] 1 Sept 1508.
The first wife of John, Lord Marny d. 6 Aug 1517, and his (and Bridget's)
2nd marriage was presumably some time after that, and thus likely well
before the 1524 reference to it in Sir William's will. So the wills don't
contradict the two-marriage scenario for Bridget stated in CP..
So, barring any other evidence that may be buried in RPA's citations, it
seems that RPA is in error in relying on visitation pedigrees to conclude
that there were two daughters here, rather than one with two marriages as CP
says.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cristopher Nash" <c@windsong.u-net.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, December 10, 2004 3:14 PM
Subject: Re: Marney/Waldegrave - a CP correction from RPA?
Waldegrave and his wife Margery, which appear to clearly show that their
daughter Bridget was the wife of John, Lord Marny and that there was no
daughter Mary as indicated in RPA.
You metnion that the dates of the wills of Sir William and his wife make it
clear that, at least during the period of 1524-1539, Bridget could not have
been married to a Findern. In fact, CP 8:524 says her Findern marriage was
much earlier, since her 1st husband William Findern d. [vp] 1 Sept 1508.
The first wife of John, Lord Marny d. 6 Aug 1517, and his (and Bridget's)
2nd marriage was presumably some time after that, and thus likely well
before the 1524 reference to it in Sir William's will. So the wills don't
contradict the two-marriage scenario for Bridget stated in CP..
So, barring any other evidence that may be buried in RPA's citations, it
seems that RPA is in error in relying on visitation pedigrees to conclude
that there were two daughters here, rather than one with two marriages as CP
says.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cristopher Nash" <c@windsong.u-net.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, December 10, 2004 3:14 PM
Subject: Re: Marney/Waldegrave - a CP correction from RPA?
"John Higgins" <jthiggins@sbcglobal.net> wrote --
CP 8:524, in the biography of John Marny [or Marney], 2nd Baron
Marny, says that his 2nd wife was Bridget, widow of William Findern
of Little Horkesley, Essex, and dau. of Sir William Waldegrave by
Margery Wentworth. The newly published RPA, apparently based on
visitation pedigrees, on page 741 splits this Bridget into two
daughters of Sir William: Mary the wife of John, Baron Marney, and
Bridget the wife of Sir John [not William] Findern.
It appears from footnotes in CP that Bridget's will does refer to
her two husbands. Accordingly, I wonder if there is any evidence
other than the visitation pedigrees (primary sources, maybe?) for
RPA's conclusion that there were two daughters here rather than one
with two marriages.
I haven't looked at the RPA passage but unless there's some ambiguity
there that you haven't mentioned, it looks probably to be unreliable.
While of the 2 wills of Sir William Waldegrave (26 Jan 1524 & 6 July
1525, proved 6 Mar 1527) as a codicil but revoking all previous
wills) only the first refers to 'my daughter Lady Marny' - without a
given name - the will of wife Margery (7 Mar 1539, proved 6 May 1540)
refers to her daughter 'Lady Marny' (mentioned 4 times) twice as
'Bridgett'. In none of these 3 lengthy and detailed documents is
there any mention of a Mary or of any Findern. (Other daughters
Jane, Ann(e), Dorothy/Dorothe, Elizabeth, Julian and Margery are
mentioned.) This doesn't of itself seem to me to rule out the
possibility that Bridget may have previously married a Findern or
indeed that a Mary da. of Sir William and Margery (Wentworth)
Waldegrave may at some time have been married to a John Marn(e)y, but
at least in the period 1524-39 the former seems impossible and the
latter probably unlikely. [Documents cited as transcribed in G C
Clopton, The Ancs & Descs of William Clopton of York Co, VA (1984).]
There is the interesting feature that only Margery's will refers
daughter Margery and speaks of her unusually as "Margary Waldegrave
daughter of Sir William Waldegrave, Knt.'; I'm not certain why, but
you're welcome top play with the idea - though unsupported by any
other evidence I've seen - that Sir William may have had an earlier
wife or consort, yielding also a da. Mary. If you like I can look
into my Marney data for more help.
Cheers,
Cris
--