King David and Esau & Red Hair

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Matthew Rockefeller

King David and Esau & Red Hair

Legg inn av Matthew Rockefeller » 18 nov 2004 00:39:21

Let's start with Esau.

From Genesis 25:25 we read in JPS (Jewish Publication Society's
English translation of the Tanakh/Jewish Bible) "And the first came
forth ruddy all over like a hairy mantle, and they called his name
Esau." The word ruddy is a translation of the Hebrew word Admoni,
which means red in reference to hair.
In NKJV (New King James Version) we have "And the first came out red.
He was like a hairy garment all over; so they called his name Esau"

For David we have in 1 Samuel 16:12 in JPS "He sent, and brought him
in. Now he was ruddy, and withal of beautiful eyes, and goodly to look
upon. And HaShem said, 'Arise, anoint him; for this is he'"
In the NKJV we read "So he sent and brought him in. Now he was ruddy,
with bright eyes, and good-looking. And the LORD said, "Arise, anoint
him; for this is the one!"

We also have 1 Samuel 17:42 in JPS "And when the Philistine looked
about, and saw David, he disdained him; for he was but a youth, and
ruddy, and withal of a fair countenance."
In the NKJV we read "And when the Philistine looked about and saw
David, he disdained him; for he was only a youth, ruddy and
good-looking."

For those familiar with the story of my ancestor Exilarch Bostanai,
there are probably a couple people, the Persian king had a dream that
he was cutting off the branchs of a tree and before he chopped the
last branch a red-haired man said he was going to destroy his kingdom
if he didn't stop chopping away at the tree. A Jew interpreted the
dream to mean that King David, the red-haired man, was threatening to
destroy the Persian kingdom if he didn't stop killing the Davidic
princes, so he protected the then unborn Bostanai and his mother until
he was born and then heaped blessings upon him after his birth.

Also, in reference to the fact that 5% of Americans have red hair,
this I already knew. The fact is that that 5% isn't made up of pure
Chinese or African people, it's made up of Irish and Scottish folk, as
well as other European, Russian, and Middle Easterners/Western Asians.
America is mixing pot of culture and ethnicity, so it's not fair to
use all Americans in this survey in such a way. Obviously if you
polled only the Irish in Boston the number would be much higher and
much lower if you polled in say Miami. There is no American ethnicity,
such as when one says "I'm Italian".

I have always loved red hair, inspite of not having it. Personally I
have very light skin, burn easily in the sun, and really dark brown
hair, which when I was younger was a lighter brown. I also have
blue-green eyes, which when I was younger were almost sea blue, but
funny enough they seemed to have changed as well, just as my mother's
did. I often read and hear of people with blond hair sometimes losing
it to a darker color when getting older. I'm Jewish on the side of my
biological father, whom I never had the chance to meet. My grandfather
lived in Israel for a time.

Matthew

Terry

Re: King David and Esau & Red Hair

Legg inn av Terry » 18 nov 2004 01:51:01

----- Original Message -----
From: "Matthew Rockefeller" <matthew_rockefeller@yahoo.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2004 4:39 PM
Subject: King David and Esau & Red Hair


Snip

This has absolutly nothing to do with red hair but I think it is
interesting, when my wife was pregnant with my first son her hair changed
from brown to black and my son was born with and still has black hair, I
have one blond and three brown haird children in addition to him.
Terry


I have always loved red hair, inspite of not having it. Personally I
have very light skin, burn easily in the sun, and really dark brown
hair, which when I was younger was a lighter brown. I also have
blue-green eyes, which when I was younger were almost sea blue, but
funny enough they seemed to have changed as well, just as my mother's
did. I often read and hear of people with blond hair sometimes losing
it to a darker color when getting older. I'm Jewish on the side of my
biological father, whom I never had the chance to meet. My grandfather
lived in Israel for a time.

Matthew



Nathaniel Taylor

Re: King David and Esau & Red Hair

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 18 nov 2004 04:06:15

In article <1623fca6.0411171539.6de9a020@posting.google.com>,
matthew_rockefeller@yahoo.com (Matthew Rockefeller) wrote:

For those familiar with the story of my ancestor Exilarch Bostanai...

Just out of curiosity, since you mention it, can you tell us how you
trace your descent from the Exilarch Bostanai? I hope it is not via the
Zuckerman thesis.

Nat Taylor

a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/

marshall kirk

Re: King David and Esau & Red Hair

Legg inn av marshall kirk » 18 nov 2004 17:22:52

matthew_rockefeller@yahoo.com (Matthew Rockefeller) wrote in message news:<1623fca6.0411171539.6de9a020@posting.google.com>...
[snippage]

'America is [a] mixing pot of culture and ethnicity ... There is no
American ethnicity, such as when one says "I'm Italian".'

Without addressing your thesis in general or in detail, I'll point out
that "I'm Italian" conveys no more genetic ethnicity than "I'm
American." The Italian peninsula, already ethnically mixed in the
first millennium BCE, became under the late Republic and the Empire an
incredible melting pot of populations, slave and free, drawn from all
over the Mediterranean basin, as well as from Gaul, the Rhineland, and
the British isles. Just to get started, you have the pre-Empire
population -- itself hardly indigenous -- of the peninsula itself,
Greeks of several different stripes, Egyptians (themselves mixed), a
good many Jews, Celts, and Teutons, and after Septimus Severus many
groups from North Africa and Syria. A professional ethnologist could
go on from here at great length. This melting pot, already one of the
most molten in history, was roiled still further by the Ostrogothic
and Lombard hegemonies, and by the Justinianic *reconquista* and
subsequent Byzantine rule, petering out in the Exarchate of Ravenna (I
think), but having injected yet another flood of ethnicities *via* the
soldiery and administrative officers.----Within Italy itself, there's
a great range of ethnic mixtures -- I've seen swarthy Sicilians with
straight black hair and northern Italians with fair skin and pale
blond, curly hair.

Matthew Rockefeller

Re: King David and Esau & Red Hair

Legg inn av Matthew Rockefeller » 18 nov 2004 21:31:49

Nathaniel Taylor <nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<nathanieltaylor-9E3DF3.22054717112004@news1.east.earthlink.net>...
In article <1623fca6.0411171539.6de9a020@posting.google.com>,
matthew_rockefeller@yahoo.com (Matthew Rockefeller) wrote:

For those familiar with the story of my ancestor Exilarch Bostanai...

Just out of curiosity, since you mention it, can you tell us how you
trace your descent from the Exilarch Bostanai? I hope it is not via the
Zuckerman thesis.

Nat Taylor

a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/

Good question, I would be a descendant through the Zuckerman thesis as
well, but I do question certain identifications in his thesis. For
one, Natronai and Makhir were completely different people. Makhir was
the son of Exilarch Zakkai Yehuda. David Hughes lists other Makhirs,
but these Makhirs didn't exist, they are just other parentages
attributed to Makhir by uninformed sources. I also have a problem with
the identification of William of Gellone with Ambassador Isaac,
because I don't think the evidence is there.

Besides all of this, I am a descendant of the Maharal of Prague's
older brother Sinai. The Maharal is a Jewish hero who had a well
established Gaonic and Davidic yichus/lineage. The Gaons were like the
exilarchs, and were descended from them, as they performed
governmental duties as well as religous ones. He descended directly
from the marriage of Gaon Hai and his wife Asmouna, who was a
descendant of Bostanai and his Jewish wife Adoa, daughter of Gaon
Hisdai. For more on Hai you can read about him here
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view. ... 3&letter=H

Matthew

Nathaniel Taylor

David descent: the Maharal of Prague (was red hair, etc.)

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 19 nov 2004 03:27:42

In article <1623fca6.0411181231.2d283d62@posting.google.com>,
matthew_rockefeller@yahoo.com (Matthew Rockefeller) wrote:

Nathaniel Taylor <nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:<nathanieltaylor-9E3DF3.22054717112004@news1.east.earthlink.net>...
In article <1623fca6.0411171539.6de9a020@posting.google.com>,
matthew_rockefeller@yahoo.com (Matthew Rockefeller) wrote:

For those familiar with the story of my ancestor Exilarch Bostanai...

Just out of curiosity, since you mention it, can you tell us how you
trace your descent from the Exilarch Bostanai? I hope it is not via the
Zuckerman thesis.

Good question, I would be a descendant through the Zuckerman thesis as
well, but I do question certain identifications in his thesis.

Good. I published a discussion, focusing purely on the problems with
the Christian / Jewish identity (rather than on Zuckerman's placement of
Makhir, which I understand is also flawed) a few years ago.

Besides all of this, I am a descendant of the Maharal of Prague's
older brother Sinai. The Maharal is a Jewish hero who had a well
established Gaonic and Davidic yichus/lineage.

This is very interesting. I have no expertise in other Davidic descent
claims of modern Jewish groups. Can you cite a scholarly discussion of
the sources or tradition of the particular genealogical claims to
Davidic / Gaonic lineage of the Maharal, accessible in a European
language (hopefully other than Czech)? Is there an extant pedigree with
names for every generation, or just the traditional assertion of a
descent? And does the Maharal's immediate family have a large
acknowledged contemporary descendancy? Is there a published
genealogical compilation of his descendants?

Nat Taylor

a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/

marshall kirk

Re: David descent: the Maharal of Prague (was red hair, etc.

Legg inn av marshall kirk » 19 nov 2004 16:17:58

Nathaniel Taylor <nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<nathanieltaylor-4EF3F4.21270718112004@news1.east.earthlink.net>...

[snippiness on my part]

Besides all of this, I am a descendant of the Maharal of Prague's
older brother Sinai. The Maharal is a Jewish hero who had a well
established Gaonic and Davidic yichus/lineage.

This is very interesting. I have no expertise in other Davidic descent
claims of modern Jewish groups. Can you cite a scholarly discussion of
the sources or tradition of the particular genealogical claims to
Davidic / Gaonic lineage of the Maharal, accessible in a European
language (hopefully other than Czech)? Is there an extant pedigree with
names for every generation, or just the traditional assertion of a
descent? And does the Maharal's immediate family have a large
acknowledged contemporary descendancy? Is there a published
genealogical compilation of his descendants?

Dave Kelley has been collecting claims of Davidic descent, and
purported Davidic pedigrees, for a long, long time. I think it would
be fair to say that he has seen no pedigree that appears truly valid,
but that while some are apparently just concoctions, others seem
plausible save that a swatch of ten or more generations has dropped
out. You may take that for what it's worth.

A gentleman of my acquaintance has been collecting DNA samples from
people all over the world with his own rare surname and others that
seem, historically, to represent branches of the same stock. These
people come from widely sundered lineages, but share a tradition of
Davidic descent. Testing of their y DNA showed that about 2/3 of them
shared a pattern of markers (unfortunately, not so many as would be
used now -- things keep changing quite swiftly in the world of
'genetic genealogy') that distinguished them from most other Jews.
Again, FWIW ...

Of course, we're talking here about lineages say 90 generations long.
If one were to posit for the sake of argument that the probability of
validity for each and every filiation is 99.9% (and this is almost
certainly much too high), the probability that the lineage is sound
from beginning to end is only 91.4%.
Positing a standard filiational validity of 99% (probably still too
high), the likelihood that the whole lineage is sound would fall to
only 40.5%. (But check my arithmetic, please.)----One possible
mitigating factor is that false paternities might tend to derive from
other males in the same lineage.

Matthew Rockefeller

Re: David descent: the Maharal of Prague (was red hair, etc.

Legg inn av Matthew Rockefeller » 20 nov 2004 05:20:23

Apparently the possibly anti-semite Mr Kelly has yet to examine the
pedigrees of the Maharal or the pedigree of the Dayan family, whose
families both have continuously mentioned lineages from the exilarchs.
In both genealogies there are no ten generation gaps. The oldest
ancestor of mine whose grave has been located, who died in 1439,
mentions his descent from the Gaons and King David, and his lineage
was known.

Matthew



Dave Kelley has been collecting claims of Davidic descent, and
purported Davidic pedigrees, for a long, long time. I think it would
be fair to say that he has seen no pedigree that appears truly valid,
but that while some are apparently just concoctions, others seem
plausible save that a swatch of ten or more generations has dropped
out. You may take that for what it's worth.

A gentleman of my acquaintance has been collecting DNA samples from
people all over the world with his own rare surname and others that
seem, historically, to represent branches of the same stock. These
people come from widely sundered lineages, but share a tradition of
Davidic descent. Testing of their y DNA showed that about 2/3 of them
shared a pattern of markers (unfortunately, not so many as would be
used now -- things keep changing quite swiftly in the world of
'genetic genealogy') that distinguished them from most other Jews.
Again, FWIW ...

Of course, we're talking here about lineages say 90 generations long.
If one were to posit for the sake of argument that the probability of
validity for each and every filiation is 99.9% (and this is almost
certainly much too high), the probability that the lineage is sound
from beginning to end is only 91.4%.
Positing a standard filiational validity of 99% (probably still too
high), the likelihood that the whole lineage is sound would fall to
only 40.5%. (But check my arithmetic, please.)----One possible
mitigating factor is that false paternities might tend to derive from
other males in the same lineage.

Matthew Rockefeller

Re: David descent: the Maharal of Prague (was red hair, etc.

Legg inn av Matthew Rockefeller » 20 nov 2004 06:31:54

Good. I published a discussion, focusing purely on the problems with
the Christian / Jewish identity (rather than on Zuckerman's placement of
Makhir, which I understand is also flawed) a few years ago.

Yes, I've read that article. I will probably be linking to it on my
future Davidic Dynasty site, whenever it is completed, probably not
for some time. I suppose I have been given the role of genealogical
head of house since the death of grand/great uncle who had no
children. A Jewish prince named Bob living in Richmond, imagine that.
Although, he was faithful Conservative Jew who sang in the choir.

As a few people know I am also writing a book on Irish clan chiefs,
which I've been neglecting as of late, because of other interests.

Besides all of this, I am a descendant of the Maharal of Prague's
older brother Sinai. The Maharal is a Jewish hero who had a well
established Gaonic and Davidic yichus/lineage.

This is very interesting. I have no expertise in other Davidic descent
claims of modern Jewish groups. Can you cite a scholarly discussion of
the sources or tradition of the particular genealogical claims to
Davidic / Gaonic lineage of the Maharal, accessible in a European
language (hopefully other than Czech)? Is there an extant pedigree with
names for every generation, or just the traditional assertion of a
descent? And does the Maharal's immediate family have a large
acknowledged contemporary descendancy? Is there a published
genealogical compilation of his descendants?

Where should I begin? His immediate family and indeed his ancestors at
that were recognized in their generations as Davidic princes, which I
also mentioned in another post I just made. The pedigree is extant,
with every generation, going back to David. The Hassidic Rebbes are
descendants of Maharal of Prague, but the more recent ones in the
female-line. I have no knowledge of male-line descendants of the
Maharal, just female-line, but it is certainly possible that they
still exist, they are just untraced by the sources I've seen.

For those who don't know about the Maharal see this site
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view. ... h=Bezaleel
Stangely enough it mentions Sinai and Samson as younger brothers of
the Maharal, but I know at least Sinai was an older brother and
possibly Samson. The Maharal's and Samson's birth dates are in
dispute, which is the reason we don't know whether or not Samson was
younger or older. The Maharal was really a prominent figure in his day
and was given a private conference with the Emperor.

Sinai is also an ancestor of Senator John Kerry. I will try to get
that lineage posted for the group.

Scholarly discussion, hmmm, there is Parents are the Crown of the
Children by Aryeh Lifshitz 1927 and republished in 1965, but that is
in Hebrew, it discusses the descent from the Maharal's family from
Gaon Hai. Also, a distant cousin of mine wrote a book on the family,
but it was privately published, and it's by far the closest
examination of the information. I am hoping to display some of the
information from that book on my future site. We also have The Glory
of the House of David by Rabbi Moshe Yair Weinstock published in 1968,
which lists the ancestors of the Maharal's family with dates and what
not. There are many older sources which mention the fact that the
Maharal is a descendant of Hai, but don't give the full lineage.

I have a chart of some of the descendants of the Maharal, including
the Rebbes, that I can send to you if you wish.

Matthew

Don Stone

Re: David descent: the Maharal of Prague (was red hair, etc.

Legg inn av Don Stone » 20 nov 2004 18:13:17

Matthew Rockefeller wrote:
Apparently the possibly anti-semite Mr Kelly has yet to examine the
pedigrees of the Maharal or the pedigree of the Dayan family, whose
families both have continuously mentioned lineages from the exilarchs.
In both genealogies there are no ten generation gaps. The oldest
ancestor of mine whose grave has been located, who died in 1439,
mentions his descent from the Gaons and King David, and his lineage
was known.

Matthew

Prof. Kelley (certainly not an anti-semite) is familiar with the pedigrees
of the Maharal and the Dayan family. Most recently, he was given a copy of
the 2004 reprint (by the Haktav Institute, Jerusalem) of _Yashir Moshe: A
Commentary on the Song of Songs_ by Rabbi Moshe Dayan. This reprint gives
an English translation of the genealogical section, which supplies the
descent of the author from King David. I know that Prof. Kelley has a few
minor corrections to the Common/Christian Era portion of the pedigree as
given here; I'm not sure of his present thoughts on the early post-Biblical
portion of this pedigree.

-- Don Stone

Matthew Rockefeller

Re: David descent: the Maharal of Prague (was red hair, etc.

Legg inn av Matthew Rockefeller » 21 nov 2004 09:29:33

Prof. Kelley (certainly not an anti-semite) is familiar with the pedigrees
of the Maharal and the Dayan family. Most recently, he was given a copy of
the 2004 reprint (by the Haktav Institute, Jerusalem) of _Yashir Moshe: A
Commentary on the Song of Songs_ by Rabbi Moshe Dayan. This reprint gives
an English translation of the genealogical section, which supplies the
descent of the author from King David. I know that Prof. Kelley has a few
minor corrections to the Common/Christian Era portion of the pedigree as
given here; I'm not sure of his present thoughts on the early post-Biblical
portion of this pedigree.

-- Don Stone

I was reading through it fast and it seemed as though the man I called
Mr Kelly was setting out just to prove that there were no descents
from King David any way possible. I was clearly mistaken. For some
reason I read it Kelly and not Kelley, not even thinking of Professor
Kelley, some of whose articles I have read. I didn't mean to call the
Professor an anti-semite, which he is obviously not. Although, if he
is questioning the Dayan, Maharal, and Charlap pedigrees then I do
question his research ability on Jewish genealogy. Descent from King
David and descent from the Cohens were not taken lightly. They were
viewed as essential to the future promise of the restoration of
Israel. Just like the lost Berdugo yichus (descendants of Bostanai) we
have testimonies from the Rabbis who verified the genealogy generation
after generation and would add the next generation to the pedigree. In
the same fashion were the Dayan, many of whose original old genealogy
documents are still extant, and the Maharal/Loew pedigrees recorded.
The Dayans from Exilarch Bostanai and the later exilarchs, and the
Maharal from Nasi Pinkhas, Hereditary Head of the Sanhedrin in
Tiberias and author, who was regarded as the Davidic heir of his
generation, and his Gaonic descendants.

Matthew

Matthew Rockefeller

Re: King David and Esau & Red Hair

Legg inn av Matthew Rockefeller » 22 nov 2004 00:49:20

I just realized when rereading this that I made a mistake. I don't
know what I was thinking when writing this, and I'm surprised someone
didn't correct me on this. I meant to say that my biological
"grandfather" was Jewish, not my father. My mother was adopted and
it's her biological father, who died before I was born, who was
Jewish. The second line was right, he was also the same person who
lived in Israel for a time.

Matthew

I have always loved red hair, inspite of not having it. Personally I
have very light skin, burn easily in the sun, and really dark brown
hair, which when I was younger was a lighter brown. I also have
blue-green eyes, which when I was younger were almost sea blue, but
funny enough they seemed to have changed as well, just as my mother's
did. I often read and hear of people with blond hair sometimes losing
it to a darker color when getting older. I'm Jewish on the side of my
biological father, whom I never had the chance to meet. My grandfather
lived in Israel for a time.

Matthew

Nathaniel Taylor

Re: Davidic descent: the Maharal of Prague (was...)

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 22 nov 2004 02:50:03

In article <1623fca6.0411192131.586a51@posting.google.com>,
matthew_rockefeller@yahoo.com (Matthew Rockefeller) wrote:

Besides all of this, I am a descendant of the Maharal of Prague's
older brother Sinai. The Maharal is a Jewish hero who had a well
established Gaonic and Davidic yichus/lineage.

This is very interesting. I have no expertise in other Davidic descent
claims of modern Jewish groups. Can you cite a scholarly discussion of
the sources or tradition of the particular genealogical claims to
Davidic / Gaonic lineage of the Maharal, accessible in a European
language (hopefully other than Czech)? Is there an extant pedigree with
names for every generation, or just the traditional assertion of a
descent? And does the Maharal's immediate family have a large
acknowledged contemporary descendancy? Is there a published
genealogical compilation of his descendants?

Where should I begin? His immediate family and indeed his ancestors at
that were recognized in their generations as Davidic princes, which I
also mentioned in another post I just made. The pedigree is extant,
with every generation, going back to David...

Sinai is also an ancestor of Senator John Kerry. I will try to get
that lineage posted for the group.

I think many would be interested in seeing a discussion of this
particular descendancy connection; thank you!

Scholarly discussion, hmmm, there is Parents are the Crown of the
Children by Aryeh Lifshitz 1927 and republished in 1965, but that is
in Hebrew, it discusses the descent from the Maharal's family from
Gaon Hai.

We also have The Glory
of the House of David by Rabbi Moshe Yair Weinstock published in 1968,
which lists the ancestors of the Maharal's family with dates and what
not.

There are many older sources which mention the fact that the
Maharal is a descendant of Hai, but don't give the full lineage.


Thanks. As I said, Iam a novice when it comes to this material. I see
an interesting article on the question of David ancestry by David
Ensiedler which also mentions these texts (and others) and puts them in
a general context, at:

http://www.jewishgen.org/Rabbinic/journal/kdavid.htm

It also cites sources giving a full ancestry for the Maharal from David,
as you say above. I would like to see a more critical discussion of
these sources, but Einsiedler's article is a good start.

Also, a distant cousin of mine wrote a book on the family,
but it was privately published, and it's by far the closest
examination of the information. I am hoping to display some of the
information from that book on my future site.

Could you identify this book?

In another post you discuss David Kelley's work, which was mentioned by
Marshall Kirk and Don Stone. I noted you seemed to question his ability:

if he is questioning the Dayan, Maharal, and Charlap pedigrees
then I do question his research ability on Jewish genealogy

I think that you may have misinterpreted either Marshall's or Don's
comments to take such a dismissive view of Prof. Kelley's work. I think
it is fair to say that he 'questions' the pedigrees in that he wants to
subject them to critical analysis (and has indeed done so in some
cases)--not that he has any foregone conclusion that they are false. I
also think (though I am not sure) that Marshall may have misspoken in
saying that Kelley finds all the commonly discussed Davidic descents to
be flawed by irrecoverable gaps.

At any rate, I share Professor Kelley's belief that these traditions of
descent, and surviving early pedigrees of varying date, deserve more
notice in the non-Hebrew-speaking genealogical community, especially as
comparative material for those interested in general questions of
pre-modern genealogy and genealogical reckoning, not to mention DFAs
specifically. I also believe (as Professor Kelley does) that some or
all of the core set of documented Davidic descents to Rabbinic families
are just as likely (if not more likely) to be true as not, though I
would eschew one insinuation of David Einsiedler that any assertion of
Davidic ancestry by an early-modern rabbi is necessarily to be believed
simply because of an expectation of integrity in such an informant.
Einsiedler writes (referring to one particular tradition):

"Judging from my study of the rabbis of many ages and places, they were
of high moral fiber and integrity, and I am certain that the tradition
of Rashi's descent is a true retelling of historical facts. Lack of
proof is not proof of lack." [end of first page of article at URL cited
above]

True, and appropriate weight should certainly be given to the context of
such assertions and the status of the informant; but no source can be
exempt from critical analysis just because of the status of its author.
As is now the currency with discussions of non-Jewish DFAs (as in the
work of Settipani & others), it is necessary to examine the nature and
extent of each piece of evidence systematically in the same sort of
light--citing & quoting textual passages in early pedigrees with
discussion of manuscript provenance and/or textual tradition,
exploration of possible motives for forgery or deliberate misstatement,
etc. I expect that this is about to happen in this field (especially if
some of Professor Kelley's work is published), and look forward to
seeing it.

Nat Taylor

a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/

Matthew Rockefeller

William of Gellone - Maharal of Prague

Legg inn av Matthew Rockefeller » 22 nov 2004 21:49:53

Before I start, on topic with the thread I just got some great news,
or should I say conformation. I have got word that Jewish scholar
Athol Bloomer, who has done tremendous research for over 25 years on
Makhir and William of Gellone, with the help of eastern Jewish
records, has long confirmed the connection. William is not to be
identified with Isaac, who was his cousin. William's Jewish name was
Nathan Kalonymus. Furthermore, DNA research has now shown a connection
between the ancestors of the Rockefellers and the Dayans, who are both
descendants of Bostanai according to Athol's research. The
Rockefellers, along with the Rocafuls of Spain, being descendants of
the Roquefeuils of France who descend from the d'Anduze family who
descended from Bernard of Septimania, whose Jewish name was Meshullam,
and the early generations in question are all confirmed by Athol's
research and accepted by the Davidic Dynasty in Jerusalem. I will
probably being taking some time off from my other research and digging
into this further.

Now to answer the questions.

I think many would be interested in seeing a discussion of this
particular descendancy connection; thank you!

I don't have the lineage from Kerry to Sinai yet, just a reference to
the fact of the descent. I'll see what I can do.

Scholarly discussion, hmmm, there is Parents are the Crown of the
Children by Aryeh Lifshitz 1927 and republished in 1965, but that is
in Hebrew, it discusses the descent from the Maharal's family from
Gaon Hai.

We also have The Glory
of the House of David by Rabbi Moshe Yair Weinstock published in 1968,
which lists the ancestors of the Maharal's family with dates and what
not.

There are many older sources which mention the fact that the
Maharal is a descendant of Hai, but don't give the full lineage.


Thanks. As I said, Iam a novice when it comes to this material. I see
an interesting article on the question of David ancestry by David
Ensiedler which also mentions these texts (and others) and puts them in
a general context, at:

http://www.jewishgen.org/Rabbinic/journal/kdavid.htm

It also cites sources giving a full ancestry for the Maharal from David,
as you say above. I would like to see a more critical discussion of
these sources, but Einsiedler's article is a good start.

Also, a distant cousin of mine wrote a book on the family,
but it was privately published, and it's by far the closest
examination of the information. I am hoping to display some of the
information from that book on my future site.

Could you identify this book?

The Eskeles Genealogy by Zeev Eshkolot. The Eskeles family was that of
my grandfather. They were prominent bankers at one time, but
eventually had to be bailed out by the Rothschilds. One branch was
ennobled as barons, but that branch ended in daughters who married
noblemen of non-Jewish ancestry. The Eskeles Palais is now a Jewish
Museum in Vienna.

Matthew

Todd A. Farmerie

Re: William of Gellone - Maharal of Prague

Legg inn av Todd A. Farmerie » 23 nov 2004 00:24:21

Matthew Rockefeller wrote:
I have got word that Jewish scholar
Athol Bloomer, who has done tremendous research for over 25 years on
Makhir and William of Gellone, with the help of eastern Jewish
records, has long confirmed the connection. William is not to be
identified with Isaac, who was his cousin. William's Jewish name was
Nathan Kalonymus.

With all due respect and all that, I will not believe this until I see
actual evidence that they were the same. Not just speculation, wild
guesses, or anything else that has appeared to date. No "Makhir is the
same as a seemingly different count named Magnar, and Magnar held sway
in the same place as William who was also a count so they are all the
same person" crap. I will want some document that actually makes this
equation of William and Nathan, or such a wealth of evidence as to make
it incontrovertable. There are simply too many people on both sides of
the religious divide who really, really _want_ this to be true. There
is virtually nothing about William, except for late and inaccurate
troubadour traditions to suggest that he was any different than the rest
of the Carolingian noble class, and too many loons have latched onto
selfserving and misleading scholarship regarding him for me to accept
hearsay confirmation without hard facts.

taf

Nathaniel Taylor

Re: William of Gellone - Maharal of Prague

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 23 nov 2004 05:17:01

In article <1623fca6.0411221249.74789115@posting.google.com>,
matthew_rockefeller@yahoo.com (Matthew Rockefeller) wrote:

Before I start, on topic with the thread I just got some great news,
or should I say conformation. I have got word that Jewish scholar
Athol Bloomer, who has done tremendous research for over 25 years on
Makhir and William of Gellone, with the help of eastern Jewish
records, has long confirmed the connection. William is not to be
identified with Isaac, who was his cousin. William's Jewish name was
Nathan Kalonymus. Furthermore, DNA research has now shown a connection
between the ancestors of the Rockefellers and the Dayans, who are both
descendants of Bostanai according to Athol's research. The
Rockefellers, along with the Rocafuls of Spain, being descendants of
the Roquefeuils of France who descend from the d'Anduze family who
descended from Bernard of Septimania, whose Jewish name was Meshullam,
and the early generations in question are all confirmed by Athol's
research and accepted by the Davidic Dynasty in Jerusalem. I will
probably being taking some time off from my other research and digging
into this further.

Thank you for your responses on the other points. I now see a note in
William Addams Reitwiesner's ahnentafel of Kerry which refers to a press
item about the possible descent from the early Prague family.

About this 'great news': I look forward to seeing proof that William of
Gellone is to be identified with a Jewish leader with a particular name.
However, I share Todd's skepticism, since the sources that prove this
were not known to Zuckerman or to, say, Aryeh Grabois. As for the
Occitan side, I would be interested to see proof that the Roquefeuil
d'Anduze descend in the male line from Bernard of Septimania. Can you
offer a precis of the proof of this assertion? Can this assertion be
found, for example, in the work of Claudie Amado (who alleges, on
onomastic grounds, that there were likely many male-line Guilhemide
branches throughout Languedoc)?

Nat Taylor

a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/

Don Stone

Re: David descent: the Maharal of Prague (was red hair, etc.

Legg inn av Don Stone » 06 des 2004 07:15:24

Don Stone wrote:

Prof. Kelley ... was
given a copy of the 2004 reprint (by the Haktav Institute, Jerusalem) of
_Yashir Moshe: A Commentary on the Song of Songs_ by Rabbi Moshe Dayan.
This reprint gives an English translation of the genealogical section,
which supplies the descent of the author from King David. I know that
Prof. Kelley has a few minor corrections to the Common/Christian Era
portion of the pedigree as given here; I'm not sure of his present
thoughts on the early post-Biblical portion of this pedigree.

I talked to Prof. Kelley recently, and he said that he believes there are
gaps in all the pedigrees which attempt to connect medieval or modern people
to King David of Israel. There is a gap for some of the time period prior
to around 200 C.E., for example.

-- Don Stone

Don McArthur

Roquefeuil, was re RE: William of Gellone - Maharal of Pragu

Legg inn av Don McArthur » 03 jan 2005 00:31:01

I very much doubt that any DNA [Y Chromosome?] test on the de Roquefeuil
would reveal anything of the sort. The male line breaks in 1383 with
Catherine heiress of Roquefeuil. If the Rockerfellers are connected, it
would no doubt be after then.

According to ES XIV, T. 35 the end of the Anduze line is Almeradus &
Blitgarde in the early to mid 10th C.

Regards,

Don McArthur.

-----Original Message-----
From: Matthew Rockefeller [mailto:matthew_rockefeller@yahoo.com]
Sent: 22 November 2004 10:50
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: William of Gellone - Maharal of Prague


Before I start, on topic with the thread I just got some great news,
or should I say conformation. I have got word that Jewish scholar
Athol Bloomer, who has done tremendous research for over 25 years on
Makhir and William of Gellone, with the help of eastern Jewish
records, has long confirmed the connection. William is not to be
identified with Isaac, who was his cousin. William's Jewish name was
Nathan Kalonymus. Furthermore, DNA research has now shown a connection
between the ancestors of the Rockefellers and the Dayans, who are both
descendants of Bostanai according to Athol's research. The
Rockefellers, along with the Rocafuls of Spain, being descendants of
the Roquefeuils of France who descend from the d'Anduze family who
descended from Bernard of Septimania, whose Jewish name was Meshullam,
and the early generations in question are all confirmed by Athol's
research and accepted by the Davidic Dynasty in Jerusalem. I will
probably being taking some time off from my other research and digging
into this further.

Now to answer the questions.

I think many would be interested in seeing a discussion of this
particular descendancy connection; thank you!

I don't have the lineage from Kerry to Sinai yet, just a reference to
the fact of the descent. I'll see what I can do.

Scholarly discussion, hmmm, there is Parents are the Crown of the
Children by Aryeh Lifshitz 1927 and republished in 1965, but that is
in Hebrew, it discusses the descent from the Maharal's family from
Gaon Hai.

We also have The Glory
of the House of David by Rabbi Moshe Yair Weinstock published in 1968,
which lists the ancestors of the Maharal's family with dates and what
not.

There are many older sources which mention the fact that the
Maharal is a descendant of Hai, but don't give the full lineage.


Thanks. As I said, Iam a novice when it comes to this material. I see
an interesting article on the question of David ancestry by David
Ensiedler which also mentions these texts (and others) and puts them in
a general context, at:

http://www.jewishgen.org/Rabbinic/journal/kdavid.htm

It also cites sources giving a full ancestry for the Maharal from David,
as you say above. I would like to see a more critical discussion of
these sources, but Einsiedler's article is a good start.

Also, a distant cousin of mine wrote a book on the family,
but it was privately published, and it's by far the closest
examination of the information. I am hoping to display some of the
information from that book on my future site.

Could you identify this book?

The Eskeles Genealogy by Zeev Eshkolot. The Eskeles family was that of
my grandfather. They were prominent bankers at one time, but
eventually had to be bailed out by the Rothschilds. One branch was
ennobled as barons, but that branch ended in daughters who married
noblemen of non-Jewish ancestry. The Eskeles Palais is now a Jewish
Museum in Vienna.

Matthew

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