Blount-Ayala

[Peter A. Kincaid]

At 10:28 PM 31/01/2005, you wrote:

""Peter A. Kincaid"" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
I don't know how Mr. Richardson can be so pretentious here.
Who is at fault? It is as if you are implying that you regret
using him as a source as he in the end made you look bad.
The onus is on you, as a writer, to verify your sources.

I am not personally acquainted with any of the so called regular
posters here. However, one quickly forms an impression about
them based on their posts. While Peter Stewart, like some others,
can mud sling in an unbecoming way, he does have interesting
and useful posts. You on the other hand, have quickly given
me the impression that you are the group's "leech." You keep
pushing your books but are constantly trying to mine other
peoples findings. How can you have the audacity to complain
about someone who once filled your wishes. I am sorry but
there is no way that I could not be highly critical about your last
post.

I'm afraid you are quite right, Peter.

Is there by any chance a becoming way that I could learn to sling mud? I'm
always eager to improve.

Peter Stewart

It is all in the presentation. If this were a mud wrestling contest
between the some of "the" girls on Baywatch, the entertainment
value would be much more appreciated.

Best wishes!

Peter

[Gjest]

I noticed Leo that you had added some info on these people in May 2004. You cite as a source the website of David Baud.

I have another source for you.
"Francois Hotman: A Revolutionary's Ordeal", by Donald R Kelley 1973.

In his book, Mr Kelley adds these tidbits.
1) Lambert Hotman ~1445- 24 Dec 1514 was buried in the "Church of the Innocents" in Paris.
2) Lambert Hotman was born in Silesia.
3) Evidently Paula of Marle was a heiress bringing with her the seigneurie of Villers St Paul.
4) The child of Pierre Hotman and Paula de Marle was the famous author, jurist and revolutionary Franois Hotman b 23 Aug 1524 in Paris and died 12 Feb 1590 in Basle, Switzerland
5) Franois' daughter Suzanne Hotman married as her second husband and as his second wife to Antoine d'Ailleboust "Conseiller au bailliage d'Auxois et conseiller ordinaire au conseil du prince de Conde"
6) Antoine and Suzanne's child was Louis D'Ailleboust (1612-60), 3rd Governor of New France (Quebec) "sieur de Coulonges et Argentenay"

I think that line deserves a mention Not only an immigrant line but ALSO a governor !
Thanks.
Will Johnson

[starbuck95]

And kindly spare us all more of your convulsive attempts at wit &
brevity. This has never >>once worked for you yet.

They seem to have nettled you to some extent, and that's good enuff for
me ...!

[Tony Hoskins]

"starbuck95" <[email protected]> 02/01/05 09:18AM
Maybe Kelsey wouldn't mind posting a list of the Scottish immigrants

not in RD600 (although that sounds like a lot o work).

Such a compendium including some of the numerous Scottish RDs, so
noticeably missing to date, would be of great benefit. Though, indeed,
what a lot of work! But a project so worth undertaking.





Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404

707/545-0831, ext. 562

[Frank Bullen]

Another reason - specifically in response to your reference to biographers - is the number of biographers who fail properly to research their material, perpetuating the errors of those other biographers on whom they apparently rely.

Here's a simple example. How many writers on the Tudors state that Geoffrey Boleyn was an apprentice mercer? I don't know how many, but I've come across a fair number. Yet, all it took was a telephone call to The Mercers' Company in London for me to elicit the information that Geoffrey Boleyn was admitted to The Mercer's Company (and here I quote the then Curator and Deputy Archivist , ".... by redemption, (i.e., by invitation, as opposed to by apprenticeship or by patrimony, 1429)" That is a dirtect extract from the Mercers' Company's own original records dating back to the early 14th century.

Lists like this are often used by people who take the trouble to verify their facts before putting them on paper.

Regards

Frank

[Peter Stewart]

"starbuck95" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

And kindly spare us all more of your convulsive attempts at wit &
brevity. This has never >>once worked for you yet.

They seem to have nettled you to some extent, and that's good enuff for
me ...!

It always "nettles" me to see people posing, and imposing on others, here -
although you are exagggerating the discomfort that you can cause.

Your pose as a fool is very convincing, but it's clear enough that you have
some brains when you choose to use them.

Your pose as a wit is getting you nowhere, except further into delusion.
Spencer Hines imagines that he "nettles" me with sneers about my mental
health, as does Richardson with silly remarks about underwear and rabid
dogs.

Making a rejoinder on SGM doesn't affect my equanimity as much as you think.
The comedy of your errors and oafishness is more than enough recompense.

Peter Stewart

[D. Spencer Hines]

Hilarious!

Pogue Stewart "The Nettled" is off on another amusing rant.

Adelante!

D. Spencer Hines

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Vires et Honor

"Peter Stewart" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
|
| "starbuck95" <[email protected]> wrote in message
| news:[email protected]...

| >>>And kindly spare us all more of your convulsive attempts at wit &
| > brevity. This has never >>once worked for you yet.
| >
| > They seem to have nettled you to some extent, and that's good enuff
for
| > me ...!
|
| It always "nettles" me to see people posing, and imposing on others,
here -
| although you are exagggerating [sic] the discomfort that you can
cause.
|
| Your pose as a fool is very convincing, but it's clear enough that you
have
| some brains when you choose to use them.
|
| Your pose as a wit is getting you nowhere, except further into
delusion.
| Spencer Hines imagines that he "nettles" me with sneers about my
mental
| health, as does Richardson with silly remarks about underwear and
rabid
| dogs.
|
| Making a rejoinder on SGM doesn't affect my equanimity as much as you
think.
| The comedy of your errors and oafishness is more than enough
recompense.
|
| Peter Stewart

[starbuck95]

Your pose as a fool is very convincing, but it's clear enough that
you have

some brains when you choose to use them.

Well ... thanks.

[D. Spencer Hines]

It's now time for another little lecture from Pogue Stewart as to how
Australians appreciate Mark Twain far more than do Americans.

Hilarious!

Pogue Stewart = Top Banana Of SGM.

D. Spencer Hines

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Vires et Honor

[Peter Stewart]

Spencer Hines wrote:

It's now time for another little lecture from Pogue Stewart ­as to
how Australians appreciate Mark Twain far more than do
Americans­.

Can't even get your tenses right, Spencer? I was explicitly writing
about appreciation of Twain in his own lifetime, not in the present.
And the subject has moved on.

Sadly, you are not even a competent practitioner of the Douglas
Richardson method of trying vainly to deflect attention from your
errors with misdirected nonsense.

As I wrote, John Brandon shows intelligence - and personability for
that matter - when he chooses.
Spencer on the other hand....

Peter Stewart

[Peter Stewart]

I wrote:

John Brandon shows intelligence - and personabil­ity for that
matter - when he chooses.

On second thoughts, maybe the word should be "personableness" - I trust
it was understood, either way.

Peter Stewart

[Gjest]

In a message dated 2/1/2005 8:59:09 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

I officially and unequivocally state that I neither intended or meant
to insult Chris Phillips in any way whatsoever. Mea culpa, mea culpa,
mea maxima culpa.

You are very talented and yet there is no need for self-flagellation on this
list. Just post something useful like an extract out of CP or SP or something
and let's get on with it.
Will Johnson

[Gjest]

Sibeud de Brenieu, co sgr de la Motte Galaure + before 1566,
Ecuyer ordinairede La Reine - Juge de La Terre d'ay, 1543
x pc Fontainebleau 21/5/1539
Marguerite de Suffolk, daghter of Richard de La Paole , + Pavia.
Dame d'Honneur de La Reine de Navarre. + between 1594-1600, last will 1599.
(The Brenieu family were allowed to quarterthe Suffolk arms after this
marriage)
Present at the marriage : The Queen of France, The Cardinal François de
Tournon, The Marquis de Saluces - the last was noted on the marrige document as
being a 'cousin de l'épouse'.

they had ;
1) Jacues de Brenieu x N de Taillefer, from whom Jeanne de Brenieu x Joseph
EYGHEM DE MONTAIGNE, nephew of Michel
2) Pierre de Brenieu, chev, + Bataille de St Denis
3) Claude de Brenieu, + Bataille d'Ivry
4) Leonore de Brenieu suffolk x 1564 Jean II de Secondat, sgr de
Montesquieu, from whom posterity
5) Marguerite de BRENIEU SUFFOLK x Claude d'ORGEOISE de MONTFERRIER
(descendance Sarrasin, Trembley, de Loriol.....)
6) N de Bregnieu-Suffolk x Catherine de La Bone

There is a historical rumour that Richard de La Pole, whilst staying with
the TOIGNEL d'ESPENCE family, had an affair and eventually married a daughter of
the family - this rumour has been circulating the French genealogical
community for about 400years.....

regards
Peter de Loriol

[Douglas Richardson royala]

Dear Peter ~

Thank you for your excellent response. When you have a moment, perhaps
you could post your source for this information.

Do you know the whereabouts of the alleged marriage contact of Sibeud
de Brenieu and Marguerite de la Pole? I have found no reference to
such a contract in English sources. I'm sure Mr. Williams if living
would be delighted to hear about this document. Mr. Williams is the
author of the article on Richard de la Pole which appeared in
Ricardian, 7 (1985-87): 18-25. He found no record that Richard
de la Pole left surviving posterity.

The Suffolk arms borne by the de la Pole family are very distinctive.
They would be de la Pole quartered with Wingfield. You can find them
on the seal of Richard de la Pole's grandfather, William de la Pole,
Duke of Suffolk, which seal is pictured in the book, Historical Notices
of the Parishes of Swyncombe & Ewelme (1858), by Napier. The de la
Pole family would also have the right to quarter the arms of Chaucer.
Do you have any record which proves the Brenieu family actually
quartered any of these arms?

A description of another seal of William de la Pole, Duke of Suffolk,
is found in Birch, Catalogue of Seals in the British Museum 2 (1892):
158:

"Obverse. The Earl, armed cap-à-pie, with hauberk, surcoat with open
sleeves, helmet, [sword], and shield of arms slung over the right
shoulder, riding on the right on a caparisoned horse with plume on
head. The armorial bearings of the shield and caparisons are as
described below for the reverse. Background replenished with sprigs of
foliage and flowers; Reverse. On an ornamental tree of conventional
foliage, and with a central flower, a shield of arms: quarterly, 1, 4,
a fess between three leopards' heads [DE LA POLE], 2, 3, a chief, and
over all a lion rampant queue fourchée [CHAUCER]. Supporters, two
wild boars collared)." END OF QUOTE

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

[Tim Powys-Lybbe]

In message of 2 Feb, "Douglas Richardson [email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:

The Suffolk arms borne by the de la Pole family are very distinctive.
They would be de la Pole quartered with Wingfield. You can find them
on the seal of Richard de la Pole's grandfather, William de la Pole,
Duke of Suffolk, which seal is pictured in the book, Historical Notices
of the Parishes of Swyncombe & Ewelme (1858), by Napier. The de la
Pole family would also have the right to quarter the arms of Chaucer.

Without causing a laugh, may I give some serious information about
quartering and a person's own arms?

A person may have their own arms. These are a single coat. That coat
may indeed consist of quarters. If the personal arms consists of
quarters it is said to be impartible, that is it cannot be taken apart.

Quarters otherwise represent the people of whom one is a representative
from marrying their heiress daughters. These quarters are inherited by
the descendants such that a person may have scores of these quarters.
The person may then use these quarters in what is called an achievement,
which is a slightly disciplined display of as many quarters as one
wishes. These inherited quarters may be used or not as the person
wishes. The use of the quarters does not affect the personal arms at
all, they remain as they were (though they can be changed).

From what little I have gleaned it seems that the medieval practice was
to display principally the inherited quarters that represented land
that was still owned or governed by the family. So the use of quarters
meant that the person held (feudally held) wider estates than those
originally granted to their family.

The rather wearying point that I am making is that the "arms borne by
the de la Pole family" almost certainly were NOT a quartering with the
Wingfield, or even the Chaucer, family. The arms born by these de la
Poles would have been, precisely, those of the de la Poles. Though the
arms displayed by these de la Poles might well have included the odd
quartering. Such use of quarterings is also to be seen on the Great
Seal of Richard Neville, earl of both Warwick and Salisbury, now in the
British Museum.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe [email protected]
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

[Gjest]

The shield on the tomb of Sir Anthony Browne (father of the 1st Viscount
Montague) had a de la Pole quartering which I have deduced to be from the
following:

WALTER DE LA POLE, (-1433/4) Knt of Trumpington, Camps ?1st cuz of Wm Er of
Suffolk
m
Elizabeth de Bradeston (c1374-1428/9) d&h
and left
Margaret de la Pole d&h
m
THOMAS INGALTHORPE of Borough Green, Camps
and left
EDMUND INGALTHORPE; Sir
m
Joan Tiotoft ch of her br John Tibetot/Tiptoft Er WORCESTER
and left
Isabel/Elizabeth Ingalthorpe d&ch (-1476); (m2 1472 Sir William Norreys)
m1
JOHN NEVILL Mq MONTAGUE (-1471)
and left
Lucy Nevil ch to her br (m1 Sir THOMAS FITZWILLIAM)
m2
ANTHONY BROWNE; Sir c1438-1506
and left
ANTHONY BROWNE; Sir 1500-1548 father of 1st Viscount Montague


This message is written purely for interest sake, I am not taking a view as
to the survival of the de la Pole line

Adrian


Tim wrote;

In message of 2 Feb, "Douglas Richardson [email protected]"
[email protected]> wrote:

The Suffolk arms borne by the de la Pole family are very distinctive.
They would be de la Pole quartered with Wingfield. You can find them
on the seal of Richard de la Pole's grandfather, William de la Pole,
Duke of Suffolk, which seal is pictured in the book, Historical Notices
of the Parishes of Swyncombe &Ewelme (1858), by Napier. The de la
Pole family would also have the right to quarter the arms of Chaucer.

Without causing a laugh, may I give some serious information about
quartering and a person's own arms?

A person may have their own arms. These are a single coat. That coat
may indeed consist of quarters. If the personal arms consists of
quarters it is said to be impartible, that is it cannot be taken apart.

Quarters otherwise represent the people of whom one is a representative
from marrying their heiress daughters. These quarters are inherited by
the descendants such that a person may have scores of these quarters.
The person may then use these quarters in what is called an achievement,
which is a slightly disciplined display of as many quarters as one
wishes. These inherited quarters may be used or not as the person
wishes. The use of the quarters does not affect the personal arms at
all, they remain as they were (though they can be changed).

From what little I have gleaned it seems that the medieval practice was
to display principally the inherited quarters that represented land
that was still owned or governed by the family. So the use of quarters
meant that the person held (feudally held) wider estates than those
originally granted to their family.

The rather wearying point that I am making is that the "arms borne by
the de la Pole family" almost certainly were NOT a quartering with the
Wingfield, or even the Chaucer, family. The arms born by these de la
Poles would have been, precisely, those of the de la Poles. Though the
arms displayed by these de la Poles might well have included the odd
quartering. Such use of quarterings is also to be seen on the Great
Seal of Richard Neville, earl of both Warwick and Salisbury, now in the
British Museum.

[Tim Powys-Lybbe]

In message of 3 Feb, [email protected] wrote:

The shield on the tomb of Sir Anthony Browne (father of the 1st Viscount
Montague) had a de la Pole quartering which I have deduced to be from the
following:

WALTER DE LA POLE, (-1433/4) Knt of Trumpington, Camps ?1st cuz of Wm Er of
Suffolk
m
Elizabeth de Bradeston (c1374-1428/9) d&h
and left
Margaret de la Pole d&h
m
THOMAS INGALTHORPE of Borough Green, Camps
and left
EDMUND INGALTHORPE; Sir
m
Joan Tiotoft ch of her br John Tibetot/Tiptoft Er WORCESTER
and left
Isabel/Elizabeth Ingalthorpe d&ch (-1476); (m2 1472 Sir William Norreys)
m1
JOHN NEVILL Mq MONTAGUE (-1471)
and left
Lucy Nevil ch to her br (m1 Sir THOMAS FITZWILLIAM)
m2
ANTHONY BROWNE; Sir c1438-1506
and left
ANTHONY BROWNE; Sir 1500-1548 father of 1st Viscount Montague

This plus a load more Browne quarterings are given in John Maclean's
book "Memoirs of the Family of Poyntz". This particular branch of the
Poyntzes in the late 1600s claimed 395 quarterings including 72 from the
Brownes. However some of the genealogy is bad and some of the arms
claimed were of people who lived before arms were invented.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe [email protected]
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

[Matthew Rockefeller]

Not sure why I'm responding to this, but oh well. I jokingly had an
idea to start a religious clothing line, which I said instead of having
"juicy" written in certain places would have "Jesus Saves" and the
like. Seriously though the world would be a better place if instead of
asking if I look fat in these jeans, they asked is my soul right with
God. We watch generations growing up knowing the names of porn stars
for whom they clap, but don't know the name of Pope or just who the
Dali Lama is.

Sigh!

[Matthew Rockefeller]

Exactly Paul. My point was that in Persia at the time surnames were not
used. It only later in the 1900s became an issue of what surname to
use, under Reza Shah if I'm not mistaken.

[Matthew Rockefeller]

We have secure dates for Mar Zutra I [441 - 456], too late to be the
grandfather of Bahram V who would have been born around 380 or 390. The
exilarch from ca 370 to 400 was Nathan II. Mar Zutra was the son of
Nathan (d 413) the son of Exilarch Kahana I.

Matthew

[Matthew Rockefeller]

Will, since you and that other guy asked, here is my father's ancestry
from my last reigning ancestor.

Mozaffar ed-din Shah, Emperor of Persia [1896 - 1907], Governor-General
of Azerbaijan [1861 - 1896] and Kurdistan [1894 - 1895] (1853 - 1907),
descended from the Qajar and Safawi dynasties in the male-line
married
Nur ed-Dowleh

Prince Abul Fath Salar ed-Dowleh, rival Emperor of Persia,
Governor-General of Kurdistan [1905 - 1907], Khorasan [1904 - 1905],
and Arabistan [1901 - 1904], Governor of Luristan [1900 - 1904],
Burujud [1901 - 1904], Zanjan [1899 - 1900] and Kermanshah [1897 -
1899] (1881 - 1961), rebelled against his brother in 1907 and claimed
the throne and was exiled 1908; in 1911 he was proclaimed emperor and
he gathered an army in Kurdistan numbering in the thousands and marched
to place himself on the throne, but was, after many battles, finally
defeated by the Bakhtiari tribe and surrendered in 1913 and went to
exile in Switzerland; he tried to restore the Qajar dynasty and
rebelled in 1926 from Khuzistan against the Pahlavi Emperor, Reza Shah,
only to end up fleeing into exile once again, settling in Haifa, Israel
and then Alexandria, Egypt where he died some years later
married
Qamar, daughter of Ghulam Reza Khan, Governor of Posht-e Kuh

Prince Mahdi Ali, appointed heir apparent by his father, until his
death (1902 - 1947)
married
Maryam, daughter of Muhammad Reza, Governor of Kushan

Princess Qamar, heiress of her father (1921 - 1989)
married
Shua'u'llah, came to bring the Baha'i Faith to America with the
great Dr. Kheiralla "Second Columbus, Conqueror of America";
granted the style of highness by Salar ed-Dowleh; son of Mohammad Ali,
son of Baha'u'llah, of descent from the kings of
Mazandaran/Tabaristan, whom descended from the Exilarchs

Reza Ali (1939 - 1978), lived in a chateau in France; originally
granted the style of highness by his great-grandfather; appointed heir
apparent by both his great-grandfather Salar de-Dowleh and his father
Shua'u'llah
married
Margaret Rockefeller, daughter of Avery Rockefeller, son of Percy
Rockefeller, son of William Rockefeller

David Avery Rockefeller (1961 - 1990), raised mostly in France, given
his mother's surname of Rockefeller

Matthew

[Gjest]

Thanks for your reply, Tim

I hadn't seen that the quarterings were included John Maclean's book.
However the pedigree I give was based on my own research.

Adrian


In a message dated 03/02/2005 08:44:39 GMT Standard Time, [email protected]
writes:

The shield on the tomb of Sir Anthony Browne (father of the 1st Viscount
Montague) had a de la Pole quartering which I have deduced to be from the
following:

WALTER DE LA POLE, (-1433/4) Knt of Trumpington, Camps ?1st cuz of Wm Er of

Suffolk
m
Elizabeth de Bradeston (c1374-1428/9) d&h
and left
Margaret de la Pole d&h
m
THOMAS INGALTHORPE of Borough Green, Camps
and left
EDMUND INGALTHORPE; Sir
m
Joan Tiotoft ch of her br John Tibetot/Tiptoft Er WORCESTER
and left
Isabel/Elizabeth Ingalthorpe d&ch (-1476); (m2 1472 Sir William Norreys)
m1
JOHN NEVILL Mq MONTAGUE (-1471)
and left
Lucy Nevil ch to her br (m1 Sir THOMAS FITZWILLIAM)
m2
ANTHONY BROWNE; Sir c1438-1506
and left
ANTHONY BROWNE; Sir 1500-1548 father of 1st Viscount Montague

Tim replied

This plus a load more Browne quarterings are given in John Maclean's
book "Memoirs of the Family of Poyntz". This particular branch of the
Poyntzes in the late 1600s claimed 395 quarterings including 72 from the
Brownes. However some of the genealogy is bad and some of the arms
claimed were of people who lived before arms were invented.

[Gjest]

"Princess Qamar, heiress of her father (1921 - 1989)
married Shua'u'llah, came to bring the Baha'i Faith to America with the great Dr. Kheiralla "Second Columbus, Conqueror of America"; granted the style of highness by Salar ed-Dowleh; son of Mohammad Ali, son of Baha'u'llah, of descent from the kings of Mazandaran/Tabaristan, whom descended from the Exilarchs"

Without commenting on the rest of this paragraph I just have one question. Can you provide sources which show the ancestors of Baha u'llah ? This is the first time I've ever seen any indication that his ancestry was important.
Thanks
Will Johnson

[Gjest]

Douglas,
re the marriage at Fontainebleau in 1539 between Sibeud de Brenieu and
Marguerite de Suffolk/Suffok/Suffor/Suffort

Gabriel de Saluces, Marquis de Saluces, is fourth son of Louis II de Saluces
and Marguerite de Foix-Candale. He had been given an education suited for a
younger son and was to be ordained despite being made Bishop elect of Are sur
Adour on 9/3/1530, but the vagaries of politics meant that he became 'de
jure' Head of his house. He married Marie d'Annebaut on 10/12/1544.
Why is he at the marriage contract? And why is he specifically termed as
'parent' of the young bride?One must look at his ancestry. His mother and
Richard de La Pole are 2nd cousins, His mother Marguerite is daughter of Jean de
Foix, comte de Castillon and Earl of Kendall by right of his wife, Margaret
Kerderston de la Pole (I am descended from this couple from another descent).
Margaret Kerderston de la Pole is daughter of Sir Thomas Kerderston and
Elizabeth de la Pole - she , in turn is sister of William Ist duke of Suffolk and
husband of Alice Chaucer - (cf Suffolk's niece: The identity of Margaret, the
wife of Jean de Foix, Earl of Kendal, Captal de Buch, by Charles M Hansen in
Genealogist Magazine (1988, No 10, pp374-377).

My mistake was to give the wrong name! Richard de la Pole went into exile in
Lorraine when Louis XII married Mary of England. He stayed with the Baudoche
family ( not the Toignel d'Espence as previously stated...that was all from
memory!) and had a dalliance with one of the daughters (cf La chronique de
Philippe de Vigneules et la memoire de Metz, Caen, Paradigme, 1993, p.90-91- ).
It is strongly suspected, though not proven that his daughter was from this
dalliance. Ironically I descend from this Baudoche family also. He fled to
Toul and was given asylum by the Cardinal Jean de Lorraine Bishop of Toul.
There was a bungled attempt to have him assassinated,there, by Henry VIII.

One of the main sources for the Brenieu genealogy is Rivoire de La Batie -
Armorial du Dauphiné, 1867, Lafitte Reprints 1996 pp106-107.
Also the Dossiers Bleus -Fonds Suffolk - Bibliothèque Mazarine , Paris.
Fonds Montravel - biblothèque de Lyon (Marriage contract Brenieu-suffolk)

regards,
Peter (de loriol)

[Gjest]

Well I guess no more work needs to be done. This website says it all

http://www.uhj.net/genealogy.htm

Frankly I never would have expected Krishna and Moses to be so closely related. Would you?

I find it also interesting how Shahriyar appears no less than six times in the descent from Bostanai (for heaven's sake) to Baha U'llah.

And of course, with no sources.
Will Johnson

[Douglas Richardson royala]

Dear Peter ~

Thanks much for posting the information below regarding the 1539
marriage of Sibeud de Brenieu and Marguerite de la Pole. You are
entirely correct. Gabriel de Suluces would have been a distant cousin
to Marguerite de la Pole through his Kerdeston-de la Pole ancestry.
When you have a moment, perhaps you could post a brief abstract of the
marriage contract of Sibeud de Brenieu and Marguerite de la Pole.
Also, could you explain how you came by this information? This is a
very important discovery.

I was most intrigued to hear that you descend from the Kerdeston and de
la Pole families yourself. Wonderful! When I have time next week,
I'll post information which will provide you some new ancestry for the
Kerdeston family. The new ancestry connects you to Roger le Bigod,
the Magna Carta baron.

Once again, thank you for sharing this information with all of us. You
set an example of collegiality for all of us. You're a gentleman and a
scholar to be sure.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

[email protected] wrote:

Douglas,
re the marriage at Fontainebleau in 1539 between Sibeud de Brenieu
and
Marguerite de Suffolk/Suffok/Suffor/Suffort

Gabriel de Saluces, Marquis de Saluces, is fourth son of Louis II de
Saluces
and Marguerite de Foix-Candale. He had been given an education suited
for a
younger son and was to be ordained despite being made Bishop elect of
Are sur
Adour on 9/3/1530, but the vagaries of politics meant that he became
'de
jure' Head of his house. He married Marie d'Annebaut on 10/12/1544.
Why is he at the marriage contract? And why is he specifically termed
as
'parent' of the young bride?One must look at his ancestry. His mother
and
Richard de La Pole are 2nd cousins, His mother Marguerite is
daughter of Jean de
Foix, comte de Castillon and Earl of Kendall by right of his wife,
Margaret
Kerderston de la Pole (I am descended from this couple from another
descent).
Margaret Kerderston de la Pole is daughter of Sir Thomas Kerderston
and
Elizabeth de la Pole - she , in turn is sister of William Ist duke
of Suffolk and
husband of Alice Chaucer - (cf Suffolk's niece: The identity of
Margaret, the
wife of Jean de Foix, Earl of Kendal, Captal de Buch, by Charles M
Hansen in
Genealogist Magazine (1988, No 10, pp374-377).

My mistake was to give the wrong name! Richard de la Pole went into
exile in
Lorraine when Louis XII married Mary of England. He stayed with the
Baudoche
family ( not the Toignel d'Espence as previously stated...that was
all from
memory!) and had a dalliance with one of the daughters (cf La
chronique de
Philippe de Vigneules et la memoire de Metz, Caen, Paradigme, 1993,
p.90-91- ).
It is strongly suspected, though not proven that his daughter was
from this
dalliance. Ironically I descend from this Baudoche family also. He
fled to
Toul and was given asylum by the Cardinal Jean de Lorraine Bishop of
Toul.
There was a bungled attempt to have him assassinated,there, by Henry
VIII.

One of the main sources for the Brenieu genealogy is Rivoire de La
Batie -
Armorial du Dauphiné, 1867, Lafitte Reprints 1996 pp106-107.
Also the Dossiers Bleus -Fonds Suffolk - Bibliothèque Mazarine ,
Paris.
Fonds Montravel - biblothèque de Lyon (Marriage contract
Brenieu-suffolk)

regards,
Peter (de loriol)

[Douglas Richardson royala]

Dear Peter ~

In your posts this last week on this newsgroup, I see you have referred
to the husband of Marguerite de la Pole as Sibeud de Brenieu. However,
I note in an earlier post you made to another newsgroup back in 2001,
you referred to Marguerite's husband as Sibeud de Tivoley. Which
surname is correct? Brenieu or Tivoley? Or are both surnames correct?
What is he called in their marriage contract?

Also, I find references elsewhere to this same person online in other
genealogical databases as Gibaud de Brenieu, and as Sibuet de Brenieu.
Are Sibeud, Gibaud, and Sibuet different forms of the same given name?

Amicalement, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

COPY OF EARLIER POST BY PETER DE LORIOL:

"3. Sibeud de Tivoley, sgr de Brenieu, Co sgr de la Motte Galaure, +
avt 1566, Ecuyer Ordinaire de La Reine - Juge de La terre d'Ay en 1543
-
s'établit a La Motte de Galaure.
x pc Fontainebleau 21/5/1539 ( present; La Reine de France, Le Cardinal
François de Tournon et le Marquis de Saluces, ce dernier 'cousin de
l'épouse')
Marguerite de LA POLE SUFFOLK, fille de Richard de La Pole
Suffolk, tué a la bataille de Pavie - dame d'honneur de La Reine de
Navarre." END OF QUOTE.

[Gjest]

In a message dated 2/3/2005 10:29:54 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

Not to be outdone, in California we just executed a retarded man. Next
it will be a contest to kill younger and younger children. To quote a
local right-winger: if they weren't guilty of *something*, they
wouldn't have been arrested.



What did the retarded man do? I must assume, since you do not say and I
don't know the case, that he killed someone or there would have been a lesser
sentence. Is the person he killed any less dead because his slayer was
retarded? No? Did the fact that he was retarded have anything to do with the
reason he killed? If a five year old child kills someone is there person only
slightly slain? I think not. Did the retarded avail himself of all of the
possible delays in his execution? Or did his attorneys?

Sure, it is horrible to execute a retarded person. It is horrible to
execute anyone, retarded or completely sane. Never the less it is sometime
required that unpleasant actions be taken to protect the general public. Is it not
possible that the retarded person you are so concerned about would escaped
incarceration at some future time, assuming that he was given life rather than
the death penalty, and slain more people? I bet the jurors in his trial had
that to consider as well as his retardation.

I have herein made my point clear and I will not engage in further
discussion of this off topic subject on this site. If you feel you must I will be
glad to try to boost up your courage so that you will be able to continue to
exist in a cruel world that exists in the world today. Just reply to my email
addy and I will see what I can do for you.


Gordon Hale
Grand Prairie, Texas

[email protected]_ (mailto:[email protected])

[Matthew Rockefeller]

I can't take credit for what is on that site, and I'm not endorsing it,
there are mistakes on the site. The Baha'i Faith has divided into many
branches and some support the House of Justice in Haifa, Israel, others
Leland, and recently I've come across a group that is without
organzation that awaits a descendant of Baha'u'llah to organize them.
Those are just three of the many groups. There are still some Unitarian
Baha'is as well, who support my ancestor Muhammad Ali, who Baha'u'llah
specifically appointed as successor after his brother, since Abdul Baha
had no sons, but he appointed his own maternal grandson, Shoghi
Effendi, instead.

Onto to the specific genealogy, Shahriyar is a name, not one person.
It's no different than the name Louis appearing in the Capetian
pedigree. The individuals in that pedigree you are referring to are
well documented kings of Mazandaran/Tabaristan, and I have wives for
most of them, as well as dates. All this information will eventually be
on my House of David website. Baha'u'llah was also descended from the
Ismaili Imams, the Prophet Muhamamd (pbuh), Lao Tzu the founder of
Taoism, Genghis Khan, Tibetian kings, Indian emperors, and Seljuq
Sultans, among others. That dynasty of Mazandaran kings came to an end
on April 17, 1349 when King Hassan was overthrown by his wife's
nephews, sons of his brother-in-law.

Matthew

[email protected] wrote:

Well I guess no more work needs to be done. This website says it all

http://www.uhj.net/genealogy.htm

Frankly I never would have expected Krishna and Moses to be so
closely related. Would you?

I find it also interesting how Shahriyar appears no less than six
times in the descent from Bostanai (for heaven's sake) to Baha U'llah.

And of course, with no sources.
Will Johnson

[Matthew Rockefeller]

lostcoo... you got another right-winger right here. He's prepared for
you to toughen in up and take it like a man. Forget compassion, human
decency, and logic, who needs that when we've got Dubya, Mein Fuhrer,
our battle-priest. Those who don't suck it up, carry their guns,
support large corporations, and support our invasions of foreign
countries need to get out of this country, and take them protesters
with them. It's not like this country was founded on religious freedom
and tolerance or anything. These traitors need to leave.

Jack Mehoffer

[Gjest]

You ask what the retarded man did because the victim is just as dead
regardless of the killer's retardation - I ask if the victim will
return to life because his killer has now been killed. It doesn't
matter what kind of window dressing you give it, murder is murder.

[Gjest]

"The individuals in that pedigree you are referring to are
well documented kings of Mazandaran/Tabaristan, and I have wives for
most of them, as well as dates. "

Since they are "well-documented" you will have no problem giving us a source. That is all I ask, just one, single, reliable, source. And this requirement does not include vague hand-waving references to Mommaerts, David Hughes, or "ancient Armenian sources". How about it Matthew? One source?
Will Johnson

[Family Historian]

Ach, Mein Gott in himmel.

Ed Crabtree (Missouri)
[email protected]
Outgoing emails scanned by McAfee VirusScan

[norenxaq]

Lao Tzu the founder of
Taoism, Genghis Khan, Tibetian kings, Indian emperors, and Seljuq
Sultans, among others. That dynasty of Mazandaran kings came to an end
on April 17, 1349 when King Hassan was overthrown by his wife's
nephews, sons of his brother-in-law.

Matthew

Hello:

if you are refering to the Tang Dynasty being Lao Tzu's descendants, this
was probably an origin story based on the clan name being the same (Li).
This I consider a coincidence that was taken advantage of by certain
Taoists and Tang officials. Sharing a clan name does not necessarily
connote comon ancestry

[Scott R. C. Anderson]

On Tuesday, February 1, 2005 4:13 PM MST, Kelsey Williams <[email protected]> wrote:

In response to the various people who asked (on- & off-newsgroup) about
my claim of ca. 100 Scottish immigrants not included in Roberts, here
is my working list of Scots descended from the Stewart dynasty who
immigrated to the western hemisphere prior to 1800 and who are known to
have, or may have, left descendants (note that the Scots in Browning's
_Americans of Royal Descent_ are not yet included as I've only examined
Browning's work recently and still haven't had time to vet the lines
for accuracy; if people are interested I can post summaries of those
lines later). Most of the descents listed below are relatively firm
although a few are conjectures or simply place-holders until I find the
time to examine a line more thoroughly. Please feel free to make
comments, additions and corrections.

Cranston, John (c.1626-1680) RI Robert III MCS5, 51; RD600, 114

You'll have to look very carefully at this one. Some people have tried to make John Cranston the great-grandson of James Cranstoun, Son of William 1st Lord Cranstoun, and Elizabeth Stewart, daughter of Francis Stewart, Earl of Bothwell (the grandson of King James V of Scotland), but it's pretty impossible to make the time line work. This is discussed in an article entitled "The Ancestry of Governors John and Samuel Cranston of Rhode Island", in the January 1925 issue of the "The New England Historical and Genealogical Register", pp. 57-66. The article makes a strong case that John Cranston's great grandparents were, in fact, James Cranston of Bool (Bold) and his first wife, Jane Dewar. His second wife was an Isobelle Stewart, but she is not the ancestor of the Rhode Island Cranstons.

But as someone once indicated to me, there was extensive intermarriage amongst the Scottish royals, so there could well be some other line of descent.

S R C A
cott obert ranston nderson
[email protected]
Admin, {C{offield,ollosky,ranston,ummins},OHGuerns,USAGen}[email protected]
USGenWeb Coordinator, http://www.usgennet.org/usa/oh/county/guernsey/

[Gjest]

The name is Sibuet/Sibeut/Sibued/Cibeud - as you are probably aware standard
spelling didn't really take place until the 19th Century, so your guess is
as good as mine - it really depended on who wrote it down and how good their
ear was for intonations and accents!

The family's name was de THIVOLEY/ TIVOLEY, of minor Dauphiné Noblesse. It
inherited quite a substantial Seigneurie from the Sgrs de La Gorce, Brenieu
/Bregnieu, and began to take on the name of the sgrie as their patronymic - they
are sometimes shown as N de Thivoley sgr de Brenieu or N de Brenieu.

regards
peter

[Peter Stewart]

<[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...

In a message dated 2/3/2005 10:29:54 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

Not to be outdone, in California we just executed a retarded man. Next
it will be a contest to kill younger and younger children. To quote a
local right-winger: if they weren't guilty of *something*, they
wouldn't have been arrested.

What did the retarded man do? I must assume, since you do not say and I
don't know the case, that he killed someone or there would have been a
lesser
sentence. Is the person he killed any less dead because his slayer was
retarded? No? Did the fact that he was retarded have anything to do
with the
reason he killed? If a five year old child kills someone is there person
only
slightly slain? I think not. Did the retarded avail himself of all of
the
possible delays in his execution? Or did his attorneys?

Sure, it is horrible to execute a retarded person. It is horrible to
execute anyone, retarded or completely sane. Never the less it is
sometime
required that unpleasant actions be taken to protect the general public.
Is it not
possible that the retarded person you are so concerned about would
escaped
incarceration at some future time, assuming that he was given life rather
than
the death penalty, and slain more people? I bet the jurors in his trial
had
that to consider as well as his retardation.

Perhaps Gordon will relax his rule of silence from this point to tell us his
view on these questions:

Given the moral justification of an eye for an eye, what should the state do
in the case of a lesser crime that nevertheless may destroy a life or
several lives? What about the rape of a minor, by a retarded person or any
other - should a state employee be assigned to rape the convicted criminal?
or his wife perhaps? or his young daughter? Are the original rape victim and
her family & friends any less traumatised by his later suffering of the
like? Would the state not become perverted and corrupted by the practice of
inflicting such a punishment? If you consider murder so much worse than
child rape that it calls for a different order of retribution, why not also
consider the functions of a state rapist equally less invidious than those
of an executioner?

Isn't the responsibility of the state discharged by confining the culprit &
preventing any repetition of his crime? How many convicted murderers do you
know of who escaped and offended again? How does this number compare to the
tally of men & women who were executed but are known or thought to have been
innocent?

What has the convictee's availing himself of delays got to do with his
culpability? Shouldn't the fullness of process be the first thing that the
governor ought to be satisfied about before deciding on any other grounds to
let an execution proceed?

Peter Stewart

[Markus Welschhoff]

Hello Inger!

Eberstein is the same like Everstein. The name comes from the castle Everstein near Holzminden at the Weser. For more information about the genealogy, use "Schwennicke, Europäische Stammtafeln, XVII, p. 82 - 85".

Bye, Markus.
__________________________________________________________
Mit WEB.DE FreePhone mit hoechster Qualitaet ab 0 Ct./Min.
weltweit telefonieren! http://freephone.web.de/?mc=021201

[Kelsey Williams]

"Scott R. C. Anderson" wrote:

On Tuesday, February 1, 2005 4:13 PM MST, Kelsey Williams
[email protected]> wrote:

In response to the various people who asked (on- & off-newsgroup)
about
my claim of ca. 100 Scottish immigrants not included in Roberts,
here
is my working list of Scots descended from the Stewart dynasty who
immigrated to the western hemisphere prior to 1800 and who are
known to
have, or may have, left descendants (note that the Scots in
Browning's
_Americans of Royal Descent_ are not yet included as I've only
examined
Browning's work recently and still haven't had time to vet the
lines
for accuracy; if people are interested I can post summaries of
those
lines later). Most of the descents listed below are relatively
firm
although a few are conjectures or simply place-holders until I find
the
time to examine a line more thoroughly. Please feel free to make
comments, additions and corrections.

Cranston, John (c.1626-1680) RI Robert III MCS5, 51; RD600, 114

You'll have to look very carefully at this one. Some people have
tried to make John Cranston the great-grandson of James Cranstoun, Son

of William 1st Lord Cranstoun, and Elizabeth Stewart, daughter of
Francis Stewart, Earl of Bothwell (the grandson of King James V of
Scotland), but it's pretty impossible to make the time line work. This
is discussed in an article entitled "The Ancestry of Governors John and
Samuel Cranston of Rhode Island", in the January 1925 issue of the "The
New England Historical and Genealogical Register", pp. 57-66. The
article makes a strong case that John Cranston's great grandparents
were, in fact, James Cranston of Bool (Bold) and his first wife, Jane
Dewar. His second wife was an Isobelle Stewart, but she is not the
ancestor of the Rhode Island Cranstons.

But as someone once indicated to me, there was extensive
intermarriage amongst the Scottish royals, so there could well be some

other line of descent.

S R C A
cott obert ranston nderson
[email protected]
Admin,
{C{offield,ollosky,ranston,ummins},OHGuerns,USAGen}[email protected]
USGenWeb Coordinator, http://www.usgennet.org/usa/oh/county/guernsey/

Hello,

Both MCS5 and RD600 follow the NEHGR article so presumably they provide
an accurate representation of Cranston's ancestry. I will, however, be
forewarned concerning the erroneous line you mention. Thanks!

Sincerely,
Kelsey J. Williams

[Gjest]

In a message dated 2/3/2005 11:30:18 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

Wasn't Governor Schwarzenegger arrested once, or were his offenses of
drug abuse merely self-confessed?

I'm sorry if he is proving to be as deficient in the qualities of
clemency & mercy as he was in honesty as a sportsman, and as some of
his gubernatorial counterparts in all respects.

Peter Stewart






Why don't you folks set yourselves up a RADICAL LIBERAL/ANTI-BUSH/etc. site
and stay the hell off this one with your obnoxious, false statements and
rumors.

Gordon Hale
Grand Prairie, Texas

[Gjest]

In a message dated 2/4/2005 12:29:54 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

Jack Mehoffer



Perhaps you have been practicing this too often and it has softened your
brain, assuming that you did ever have one. Most wild eyed liberals do not.

Gordon Hale
Grand Prairie, Texas

[Gjest]

In a message dated 2/4/2005 12:29:59 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

I ask if the victim will
return to life because his killer has now been killed.



No he won't return to life. I am surprised that you asked this question.
Do you REALLY believe in reincarnation?

The important idea is that the executed person, sane, insane, retarded, or
wild eyed liberal, will not commit any further murders. Can you possibly
understand why that is a good thing?

Gordon Hale
Grand Prairie, Texas

[Sally Laine]

Eberstein & Everstein were two different families. Ludwig I was an Everstein
died 1284 married Sophie of Gleichen died before 1267 daughter of Ludwig II
of Gleichen.

Try http://www.genealogie-mittelalter.de and gen-med's archives for this family

Sally

----- Original Message -----
From: "Markus Welschhoff" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, February 04, 2005 9:03 AM
Subject: Re: Eberstein - which of them?

Hello Inger!

Eberstein is the same like Everstein. The name comes from the castle
Everstein near Holzminden at the Weser. For more information about the

genealogy, use "Schwennicke, Europäische Stammtafeln, XVII, p. 82 - 85".

Bye, Markus.
__________________________________________________________
Mit WEB.DE FreePhone mit hoechster Qualitaet ab 0 Ct./Min.
weltweit telefonieren! http://freephone.web.de/?mc=021201

[Tony Hoskins]

Why don't you folks set yourselves up a RADICAL
LIBERAL/ANTI-BUSH/etc. site

and stay the hell off this one with your obnoxious, false statements
and
rumors.

DITTO !!!! Time to seek "intervention", folks. Seriously. You (and you
know who you are) are out of control. Your constant irrational,
inaccurate, inappropriate irruptions are clearly something needing work;
in certain cases, I fear, intensive therapy. Just ask the question: "WHY
are you compelled to spew all this to a *medieval genealogy* forum?
Many, many of us daily contemplate pulling the plug on this group,
*solely* because of the bizarre, hatred-of-the-right that keeps oozing
to the surface. This would go for any political/ideological views (if
anything but the left was ever doing this). Take it *elsewhere*,
PLEASE!!

Thanks.

[Ginny Wagner]

We are not amused.

[Gjest]

Friday, 4 February, 2005


Dear Kelsey, Don, et al.,

Many thanks (Kelsey) for your posting re: the many Scots GARDs who gang aft aglee in most compilations of emigrants (to the Americas, typically) of royal descent. Thanks also to Don for posting the list on your website.

I am querying re: one particular individual on your list (Cuninghame, Alexander (fl. 1762), emigrant to Virginia), specifically if this may link to another. I am aware of an Alexander Cuninghame (or Cunyngham), a grandson of Rev. Alexander Cunyngham (a great-uncle of Daniel Roberdeau, already in your list) who emigrated to Virginia (specifically Blandford, or Petersburg) during this timeframe. Is this the same individual as you have in your list?

I have a considerable amount of information concerning the ancestry of Daniel Roberdeau and his Virginia cousin, Alexander Cunyngham (Cuninghame) which is not in RD600, or otherwise published elsewhere to date. There are several royal/noble lines (none later than Robert III to date) beyond the Livingston of Kilsyth line given by GBR.

Please let me know if these details are of interest.

Cheers,

John

[Peter Stewart]

<[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...

In a message dated 2/3/2005 11:30:18 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

Wasn't Governor Schwarzenegger arrested once, or were his offenses of
drug abuse merely self-confessed?

I'm sorry if he is proving to be as deficient in the qualities of
clemency & mercy as he was in honesty as a sportsman, and as some of
his gubernatorial counterparts in all respects.

Peter Stewart

Why don't you folks set yourselves up a RADICAL LIBERAL/ANTI-BUSH/etc.
site
and stay the hell off this one with your obnoxious, false statements and
rumors.

I'm sorry to see you ranting, Gordon - my reamrks did not come from anything
like a "Radical Liberal/Anti-Bush" position. Opposition to capital
punishment is a perfectly sound Republican position, unless the party has
suddenly decided that the state should enlarge its hold over the lives of
citizens at the expense of individual rights.

As for "obnoxious, false statements and rumours" - Schwarzenegger cheated by
taking steroids as a body-builder, on his own admission. That is dishonesty
and drug abuse, by any Republican standard known to Texas. Not false, and
the obnoxiousness was down to him. Admiring him now doesn't change his past.
Even murderers can change.

Peter Stewart

[Peter Stewart]

""Tony Hoskins"" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:s2033de6.020@CENTRAL_SVR2...

Why don't you folks set yourselves up a RADICAL
LIBERAL/ANTI-BUSH/etc. site
and stay the hell off this one with your obnoxious, false statements
and
rumors.

DITTO !!!! Time to seek "intervention", folks. Seriously. You (and you
know who you are) are out of control. Your constant irrational,
inaccurate, inappropriate irruptions are clearly something needing work;
in certain cases, I fear, intensive therapy. Just ask the question: "WHY
are you compelled to spew all this to a *medieval genealogy* forum?
Many, many of us daily contemplate pulling the plug on this group,
*solely* because of the bizarre, hatred-of-the-right that keeps oozing
to the surface. This would go for any political/ideological views (if
anything but the left was ever doing this). Take it *elsewhere*,
PLEASE!!

Thanks.

But it's alright when you do it yourself? Or do we have to pull up your own
OT posts (this last being yet another) and then perhaps go through another
series of paroxysms while you deny the obvious in the manner of Spencer
Hines?

Any group of people who exchange views for long enough ON any subject are
bound to stray from it too. It's the nature of the beast. Why you should
pursue a subject of human interest, such as medieval genealogy, without
accommodating your temper to human foibles that you share, is a mystery.

Peter Stewart

[Gjest]

If s/he is kept in prison without parole, the same end will be
achieved. Execution would only add another murder to the heap,
something that you seem not to want. Containment is always better than
annihilation. The need for a level head and careful consideration is
why we (USA) are (supposedly) a nation based on law rather than
knee-jerk reaction. Of course I would want to personally kill someone
who killed or seriously damaged one of my loved ones. Slowly and with
my own hands. That is why I would be an inappropriate judge or juror in
the case. If rehabilitation is not likely or desirable because of the
severity of the crime or the mental condition of the criminal, the only
moral alternative is permanent containment.

[Gjest]

I forgot to mention two things in regard to your reply to my statement:
first, I am not wild-eyed, only wide-eyed. Second, I am farther to the
left than the average American liberal and would prefer not to be
associated with that cowardly lot.

[Gjest]

In Hoskins' rant, note the mispellings, the inability to make any
argument other than simple name-calling and exclamation points, the
accusations about "false statements" without being able to say exactly
what is false (since it is not) and - most importantly - his inability
to refrain from reading OT posts that he already knows will state a
viewpoint other than his own. Typical right winger on all counts.

[Paul K Davis]

Thanks for the "secure dates". I was relying on "The Book of Destiny:
Toledot Charlap", by Arthur F Menton, 1996 [call # CS71C474 at the Stanford
library]. It gives approx. 414 for the death of Mar Zutra, and also
indicates uncertainty whether his father was Nathan II or Abba, but it
gives his exilarchate apparently exactly as 401 to 409. I don't have the
book in front of me, so I can't check what his sources were till I have
time to go back to the libary.

What would your source be?

Thanks.

-- PKD [Paul K Davis, [email protected]]

[Original Message]
From: Matthew Rockefeller <[email protected]
To: <[email protected]
Date: 2/3/2005 12:59:21 AM
Subject: Re: Soshandukht and the Sasanians

We have secure dates for Mar Zutra I [441 - 456], too late to be the
grandfather of Bahram V who would have been born around 380 or 390. The
exilarch from ca 370 to 400 was Nathan II. Mar Zutra was the son of
Nathan (d 413) the son of Exilarch Kahana I.

Matthew

[Gjest]

Le Bateman wrote : "I cannot help but notice there are discrepancy in my 1st Edition of PA, for example he shows Richard Fitz Allen as the 3rd Earl of Arundel. If Richard Fitz Allen was the 3rd Earl of Aurendel, how can he be heir to the 8th Earl. Would that make Richard the 9th Earl instead of the 3rd Earl? Anyone want to clear this up for me? Who was the 1st through 7th Earl of Arundel? "
Here are my notes on this person, as you can see, various genealogists have called him both 3rd and 10th of Arundel as well as 9th of Surrey.Will Johnson
Richard FitzAlan (II), 10th or 3rd Earl of Arundel and 9th Earl of Surrey, Justiciar of North Wales, one of the Regents of England in 1355, b. 1313 (he came of age in 1334), d. 24 Jan. 1375/6 at Arundel, and buried at Lewes, near his wife. He was restored to his fathers honours and estates in 1330-31 (4 Edw. III). On 30 June 1347, on the death without legitimate issue of his maternal uncle, John, Earl of Surrey and Sussex, he succeeded to the estates of the Warenne family. He m. (1) (marriage annulled 4 Dec. 1344) Isabel le Despenser, by whom he had issue. The Complete Peerage castigates this noble for his cynical treatment of this wife, in order whom to discard, he pursuaded the obsequious Pope Clement VI to bastardize his issue by her. His second wife was a first cousin to his first, and a papal dispensation was granted (retroactively, as it would seem) on 4 March 1344/5. In his interesting will, the earl requests burial “near to the tomb of Eleanor de Lancaster, my wife!
; and I desire that my tomb be no higher than hers; that no men at arms, horses, hearse, or other pomp, be used at my funeral, but only five torches ... as was about the corpse of my wife, be allowed.â€

[Tony Hoskins]

[email protected]> 02/04/05 06:49PM
In Hoskins' rant, note the mispellings, the inability to make any

argument other than simple name-calling and exclamation points, the
accusations about "false statements" without being able to say exactly
what is false (since it is not) and - most importantly - his inability
to refrain from reading OT posts that he already knows will state a
viewpoint other than his own. Typical right winger on all counts.

----


Dear Ms. Edwards:

"note the mispellings"

Indeed. They are duly noted. Clever of you to illustrate my egregious
mistakes by your own. Many thanks.

I would enjoy chatting with you about these and other matters not
germane to GEN-MED, but not on GEN-MED (a novel concept). You can talk
to me about ranting, spelling, logic, and anything else it is so obvious
your pedagogic gifts could illumine for me. Please drop me a line or two
"just between us".

Indeed, I certainly am that of which you so aptly and tellingly accused
me: a "simple name caller" and "typical right winger". You are right to
call me these names. I must learn to exercise your notable restraint in
this area. See, I have so much to learn.

Yours, cut to the quick, but hopeful for enlightenment,

Tony Hoskins

[Tony Hoskins]

Jee, yur smaart. Glad u r stil reedin out thur.

[email protected]> 02/04/05 06:49PM
In Hoskins' rant, note the mispellings, the inability to make any

argument other than simple name-calling and exclamation points, the
accusations about "false statements" without being able to say exactly
what is false (since it is not) and - most importantly - his inability
to refrain from reading OT posts that he already knows will state a
viewpoint other than his own. Typical right winger on all counts.

[Ginny Wagner]

This is just a test, since I have strangely received no gen-med e-mails for
many hours, to see if I'm still subscribed.

[Todd A. Farmerie]

[Sorry for possible duplication, my server was acting flakey, so
I am repeating it just in case.]

Patricia Junkin wrote:

Todd,
I have not received messages for two days and would like to
ask if there is
a problem with the list? I know someone posted that "aol "
messages were
bouncing and given the recent verbal match wondered if list
shut down.
Thanks for your answer,

Don is in duty now, so I am sending this on to him.

Todd





--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.5 - Release Date: 2/3/2005

[Williams Family]

Hello,

My apologies for not replying earlier (my e-mail was temporarily
down over the weekend). So far as I can tell the two Alexanders are
different men. The one on my list was a tobacco factor in Virginia
after 1762 and was the third son of Alexander Cuninghame, a merchant in
Kilmarnock, who owned half of the estate of Bridgehouse and was the
natural son of George, son of Adam Cunningham of Little Bridgehouse (d.
1677) who is alleged to have been a cadet of the Cunninghams of
Caprington (all of this from Burke's Landed Gentry [1939 Ed.], p. 538,
sub Cuninghame of Duchrae late of Lainshaw). I'd be very interested in
any information you might have on the other Alexander.

Sincerely,
Kelsey J. Williams

[email protected] wrote:

Friday, 4 February, 2005


Dear Kelsey, Don, et al.,

Many thanks (Kelsey) for your posting re: the many Scots GARDs who gang aft aglee in most compilations of emigrants (to the Americas, typically) of royal descent. Thanks also to Don for posting the list on your website.

I am querying re: one particular individual on your list (Cuninghame, Alexander (fl. 1762), emigrant to Virginia), specifically if this may link to another. I am aware of an Alexander Cuninghame (or Cunyngham), a grandson of Rev. Alexander Cunyngham (a great-uncle of Daniel Roberdeau, already in your list) who emigrated to Virginia (specifically Blandford, or Petersburg) during this timeframe. Is this the same individual as you have in your list?

I have a considerable amount of information concerning the ancestry of Daniel Roberdeau and his Virginia cousin, Alexander Cunyngham (Cuninghame) which is not in RD600, or otherwise published elsewhere to date. There are several royal/noble lines (none later than Robert III to date) beyond the Livingston of Kilsyth line given by GBR.

Please let me know if these details are of interest.

Cheers,

John

[D. Spencer Hines]

Good Analogy...

Nicely Put.

DSH

"Paul J. Adam" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

| They used to charge real money to go taunt the lunatics at Bethem.
| Now, thanks to the Interweb, we can get even better entertainment
| for free.

[Gjest]

In a message dated 09/02/2005 18:56:39 GMT Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

Have you been able to trace any relationship to Nathan Hale, Yale 1773,
The Patriot?



I am very interested in this person as in the 70s and 80s I knew a very
charming Mr Hale and his much younger wife (he 70s her 40s) and their child on
the Island of Hydra where we had a holiday home, ( I used to babysit for the
child, when they went to parties). He was, at the time, director of the
Metropolitan in NY. I spent many holidays at his house and his friend's flat, a John
Bradlee, in Upper East Side, Manhattan. He had some quite amazing family
heirlooms of the American Revolution as so he told me he was a descendant of
Nathan Hale. I remember introducing him to Ved Mehta and Ted Morgan.
Somewhat OT , I know but I'd be interested to know what happened to his
boy-child!
regards
Peter ( de Loriol)

[D. Spencer Hines]

Very interesting.

Nathan Hale was executed in what is now part of New York City, very near
Grand Central Station and the Yale Club -- on 22 September 1776, of
course.

There is a historical plaque on Vanderbilt Avenue, beside Grand Central
Station.

But what makes you think he had legitimate descendants?

He died at 21 and was never married as far as I know.

Ved Mehta and Ted Morgan [Sanche Armand Gabriel de Gramont] -- both VERY
interesting people.

Ted Morgan is related to John Negroponte, presently our Ambassador to
Iraq and previously at the United Nations?

D. Spencer Hines

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Vires et Honor

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

| In a message dated 09/02/2005 18:56:39 GMT Standard Time,
| [email protected] writes:
|
| Have you been able to trace any relationship to Nathan Hale, Yale
1773,
| The Patriot?
|
| I am very interested in this person as in the 70s and 80s I knew a
very
| charming Mr Hale and his much younger wife (he 70s her 40s) and their
child on
| the Island of Hydra where we had a holiday home, ( I used to babysit
for the
| child, when they went to parties). He was, at the time, director of
the
| Metropolitan in NY. I spent many holidays at his house and his
friend's flat, a John
| Bradlee, in Upper East Side, Manhattan. He had some quite amazing
family
| heirlooms of the American Revolution as so he told me he was a
descendant of
| Nathan Hale. I remember introducing him to Ved Mehta and Ted Morgan.
| Somewhat OT , I know but I'd be interested to know what happened to
his
| boy-child!
| regards
| Peter ( de Loriol)

[Gjest]

In a message dated 2/9/2005 1:56:39 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

Have you been able to trace any relationship to Nathan Hale, Yale 1773,
The Patriot?

DSH

<[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...

| Gordon Hale
| Grand Prairie, Texas





I could not determine is a previous attempt at responding to this message
was completed so I am repeating it here.




In a message dated 2/9/2005 1:56:39 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

Have you been able to trace any relationship to Nathan Hale, Yale 1773,
The Patriot?

DSH




Nope, we are a different bunch. Our family name at that time was usually in
Georgia or Virginia and was usually spelled Hailes. My great grandfather
was elected sheriff of Greene County, Georgia in 1868. That was during
reconstruction and to be elected to any office you had to be in league with the
carpetbaggers and recently freed slaves. I have a listing from a book of a
clipping of the Greene county newspaper of that time which reads:

THE ELECTION

The late election has ceased to be a matter of any interest to our
readers but for the information of those who live in other sections, we give
below the names of the gentlemen who have declared to their fellow-men, that they
heartily welcome political and socialy equality; who declare to the world
that they and their families are no better than the kinky headed African. The
county officers elect are as follows:

! R. L. McWorter, Abram Colby...............Representatives.
R. C. Hailes..........................................Sheriff.
D. A. Newsom......................................Ordinary.
C. J. Caldwell.......................................Clerk Superior Court.

John Mitchell........................................Tax
Receiver.
G. H. Thompson...................................Tax Collector.
Hugh McWhorter..................................Treasurer.
L. C. Broome........................................Surveyor.

The R. C. Hailes was my great grandfather and the rest of the family, to
distance themselves from him, changed the spelling to Hale. This was true even
of his own son, my grandfather.
Reed C. Hailes had enlisted in the Confederate Army in 1861, along with my
grandfather, and stayed in only about two months before he purchased a
substitute. My grandfather stayed in and was at Appomatox.

I am NOT ashamed of Reed C. Hailes actions. I think that he was survivor
and realized the war was lost and tried to make the best he could for himself
and his section.


Gordon Hale
Grand Prairie, Texas

[D. Spencer Hines]

Thank you.

Understood...

Yes, we have no right to condemn our ancestors -- we did not walk in
their shoes.

Several of my relatives fought in the C.S.A.

Two Great-Granduncles were killed -- I have a photograph of them, with
their sidearms -- one was killed in battle and one by a bushwacker after
the War was "officially" over.

Captain Thomas Henry Hines, C.S.A., is better known, as he rode with
Morgan and was probably Morgan's best scout and spy.

I also have ancestors who fought for the Union.

Was R. C. Hailes, or his family, from the North originally? -- You
mention carpetbaggers.

Had I been born in Virginia, Kentucky, Tennessee or in fact anywhere
else in the South in 1839, or thereabouts, as were my Great-Granduncles,
I have little doubt I would have been a Jacksonian Democrat -- which
means a Republican today -- given how far the present Democrat Party has
fled from its Jeffersonian-Jacksonian roots.

D. Spencer Hines

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Vires et Honor

<[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...

| In a message dated 2/9/2005 1:56:39 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
| [email protected] writes:
|
| Have you been able to trace any relationship to Nathan Hale, Yale
1773,
| The Patriot?
|
| DSH
|
| <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
|
| | Gordon Hale
| | Grand Prairie, Texas
|
| I could not determine is a previous attempt at responding to this
message
| was completed so I am repeating it here.
|
| In a message dated 2/9/2005 1:56:39 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
| [email protected] writes:
|
| Have you been able to trace any relationship to Nathan Hale, Yale
1773,
| The Patriot?
|
| DSH
|
| Nope, we are a different bunch. Our family name at that time was
usually in
| Georgia or Virginia and was usually spelled Hailes. My great
grandfather
| was elected sheriff of Greene County, Georgia in 1868. That was
during
| reconstruction and to be elected to any office you had to be in
league with the
| carpetbaggers and recently freed slaves. I have a listing from a
book of a
| clipping of the Greene county newspaper of that time which reads:
|
| THE ELECTION
|
| The late election has ceased to be a matter of any interest to
our
| readers but for the information of those who live in other sections,
we give
| below the names of the gentlemen who have declared to their
fellow-men, that they
| heartily welcome political and socialy equality; who declare to the
world
| that they and their families are no better than the kinky headed
African. The
| county officers elect are as follows:
|
| ! R. L. McWorter, Abram
Colby...............Representatives.
| R. C. Hailes..........................................Sheriff.
| D. A. Newsom......................................Ordinary.
| C. J. Caldwell.......................................Clerk Superior
Court.
|
| John
Mitchell........................................Tax
| Receiver.
| G. H. Thompson...................................Tax Collector.
| Hugh McWhorter..................................Treasurer.
| L. C. Broome........................................Surveyor.
|
| The R. C. Hailes was my great grandfather and the rest of the family,
to
| distance themselves from him, changed the spelling to Hale. This was
true even
| of his own son, my grandfather.
| Reed C. Hailes had enlisted in the Confederate Army in 1861, along
with my
| grandfather, and stayed in only about two months before he purchased a
| substitute. My grandfather stayed in and was at Appomatox.
|
| I am NOT ashamed of Reed C. Hailes actions. I think that he was
survivor
| and realized the war was lost and tried to make the best he could for
himself
| and his section.
|
|
| Gordon Hale
| Grand Prairie, Texas

[Gjest]

In a message dated 2/9/2005 3:36:51 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

Was R. C. Hailes, or his family, from the North originally? -- You
mention carpetbaggers.










No, the Hailes came originally into Virginia from Lenham, Kent - to Georgia
and my father came to Texas in the early years of the 20th Century.


So far as I am aware there were no Hailes north of Virginia who are
ancestral to me.

I mention carpetbaggers because that is who was in political control in
Georgia at that time. If I remember correctly Georgia was still under
Reconstruction government until a disputed presidential election (can't recall which
one) when an agreement was reached between the Republicans and Democrats that
even though it appeared the Democrats had won they would allow the Republicans
to hold the office if the Republicans would agree to remove all of the
Reconstructions governments in the South.

Dern ya, you have piqued my interst. Now I must go find out what election
that was.


Gordon Hale
Grand Prairie, Texas

Gordon Hale
Grand Prairie, Texas

[D. Spencer Hines]

Yes, I understood that. You are correct.

Tilden, the Democrat, from New York, and a Yale graduate, won the
so-called "popular vote" but lost out on the Electoral Vote due to some
shenanigans dealing with Florida. <g>

1876 -- Hayes vs. Tilden.

Chief Justice Rehnquist has written a marvelous book about it.

DSH

<[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...

| In a message dated 2/9/2005 3:36:51 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
| [email protected] writes:
|
| Was R. C. Hailes, or his family, from the North originally? -- You
| mention carpetbaggers.

| No, the Hailes came originally into Virginia from Lenham, Kent - to
Georgia
| and my father came to Texas in the early years of the 20th Century.
|
|
| So far as I am aware there were no Hailes north of Virginia who are
| ancestral to me.
|
| I mention carpetbaggers because that is who was in political control
in
| Georgia at that time. If I remember correctly Georgia was still under
| Reconstruction government until a disputed presidential election
(can't recall which
| one) when an agreement was reached between the Republicans and
Democrats that
| even though it appeared the Democrats had won they would allow the
Republicans
| to hold the office if the Republicans would agree to remove all of
the
| Reconstructions governments in the South.
|
| Dern ya, you have piqued my interst. Now I must go find out what
election
| that was.
|
|
| Gordon Hale
| Grand Prairie, Texas
|
| Gordon Hale
| Grand Prairie, Texas

[charlotte Smith]

STARBUCK: i would like the information on Robert
Maverick that you have. I am descended from mary Gye.
Also in Vo 7 you mention Thomas Dowrish. He belongs
to this family to0..Anything interesting about him.
thanks charlotte Smith

[D. Spencer Hines]

Followup To My Last:

The Rehnquist book is:

_Centennial Crisis: The Disputed Election of 1876_

A classic, fair-minded and brilliant read.

DSH

"D. Spencer Hines" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:...

| Yes, I understood that. You are correct.
|
| Tilden, the Democrat, from New York, and a Yale graduate, won the
| so-called "popular vote" but lost out on the Electoral Vote due to
some
| shenanigans dealing with Florida. <g>
|
| 1876 -- Hayes vs. Tilden.
|
| Chief Justice Rehnquist has written a marvelous book about it.
|
| DSH
|
| <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
|
| | In a message dated 2/9/2005 3:36:51 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
| | [email protected] writes:
| |
| | Was R. C. Hailes, or his family, from the North originally? -- You
| | mention carpetbaggers.
|
| | No, the Hailes came originally into Virginia from Lenham, Kent - to
| Georgia
| | and my father came to Texas in the early years of the 20th Century.
| |
| |
| | So far as I am aware there were no Hailes north of Virginia who are
| | ancestral to me.
| |
| | I mention carpetbaggers because that is who was in political control
| in
| | Georgia at that time. If I remember correctly Georgia was still
under
| | Reconstruction government until a disputed presidential election
| (can't recall which
| | one) when an agreement was reached between the Republicans and
| Democrats that
| | even though it appeared the Democrats had won they would allow the
| Republicans
| | to hold the office if the Republicans would agree to remove all of
| the
| | Reconstructions governments in the South.
| |
| | Dern ya, you have piqued my interst. Now I must go find out what
| election
| | that was.
| |
| |
| | Gordon Hale
| | Grand Prairie, Texas

[Richard]

According to the Victoria County History of Wiltshire, Westbury hundred,
Westbury, p. 157, col. 1, John ADLAM, clothier, of Westbury, d. 1545. By his
wife, Marjorie NN, he had issue at least Edith (d. 1577), wife of John
LAMBE, d.v.p. ca 1546 (who was the lord of the manor of [East] Coulston,
Wilts.), and Alice, wife of Robert COGSWELL (bur. 1581, Westbury). So far,
this accords with what was just posted, and seems to derive from the same
secondary source.

The former couple, the LAMBEs, had, among others, John LAMBE (bur. 17 March
1614/5), lord of the manor of Coulston, Wilts.,in succession to his paternal
grandfather, Aldhelm LAMBE (husband of Ruth BUTTON, dau. of William BUTTON
of Alton Priors). This John LAMBE married, so far as I have been able to
glean, Cicely, daughter of Robert BROWNE/BROWN/BROUNE, Esq., of Walcot,
Northants., and had issue, not known to be in birth order, a) Sir John LAMBE
(d. 1659 aetat suae 80), b) Jane LAMBE, who married her kinsman (how?),
William BUTTON, of Alton Priors (and had issue Sir William BUTTON) and c)
Praxeda LAMBE, who married Thomas ERNLE (1574/5-1639), eldest son and heir
of Thomas ERNLE, founder of the Brembridge in Dilton, Westbury line of the
ERNLE family, from whom I descend. A younger sibling of this Thomas ERNLE
(d. 1639), namely, Richard ERNLE (1584-ca 1651), gent., of Dilton, Wilts.
(PCC will proved 1651) married Elizabeth COGSWELL (bur. 1661), daughter of
Edward COGSWELL, clothier, of Westbury, by his wife Alice NN, and
paternally, granddaughter of the latter couple (of the previous paragraph),
i.e. Robert COGSWELL and Alice ADLAM. Thus I am kin to all their COGSWELL
descendants.

It follows that I too would be interested to learn more about the Wiltshire
ADLAMs and allied families.

BTW, it may be of interest to listers (particularly North American ones)
that the ERNLE, LAMBE, BUTTON and ADLAM families are ancestral to John
PHILLIPS alias MAJOR, gent., a Quaker convert who settled in Duck Creek
hundred, Kent county, Pennsylvania colony in 1715 (following his Quaker
brother-in-law Benjamin SHURMER to America). While John had no descendants
(his only child, unnamed, was apparently born but not baptised in Purton,
Wilts. in 1700 according to the parish register), it is likely that the
Quaker HOLLIDAY family of Duck Creek descend from one or more of his nephews
who were taken there by him too. He was charged with their care by his
father and his late brother-in-law John HOLLIDAY. They were two of the sons
of his sister Ciss (1672/3-1757) by her first husband John HOLLIDAY, of
Purton. The widow Ciss HOLLIDAY nee PHILLIPS alias MAJOR, remarried to my
ancestor William LARGE, yeoman, of Purton, Wilts. (1679-1747), and had a
numerous posterity of whom I am one.

Via their ERNLE line of descent, any descendants* of these Quaker colonists
in America would appear have a descent from the DARELL family of Littlecote,
Wilts., viz.:

Praeposita (my great-great-great-great-great-great grandmother)

1.Ciss PHILLIPS alias MAJOR (1672/3-1757)(Arch. Wilts. Intestacy bond,
1757), m (1) John HOLLIDAY (d. 1700), m. (2) 1703, William LARGE (1679-1747)

Parents
2. Robert PHILLIPS alias MAJOR (PCC will, 1707) 3. Cisalia ERNLE,
gentlewoman, of Purton, m. by licence 17 August 1672, Malmesbury Abbey,
Wilts.

Grandparents
6. Thomas ERNLE (1614-1694), gent., of Braydon, Purton, Wilts. (Arch.
Wilts., will pr 1695) 7. Jane NN (d. ante 1694)

Great-Grandparents
12. Thomas ERNLE, gent., of Coulston, Cricklade St Sampson, and Whiteparish,
Wilts., (b. 1574/5 acc. IPM father, sub 24 infra; bur. 1639, Whiteparish)
13. Praxeda LAMBE

Great-Great-Grandparents
24. Thomas ERNLE., gent., of Bremeridge/Brembridge manor, Dilton, Wilts. d.
11 Aug. 1595 IPM, Bur. 1595, Westbury parish church (PCC will 1595) 25.
Bridget (b. 1 Jan. 1610/11, Westbury), daughter of Richard FRANKLIN, of ?

Great-Great-Great-Grandparents
48. John ERNLE, Esq., of Bourton manor, Bishops Cannings, Wilts., d. 1 Feb.
1571/2 (PCC will) 49. Mary HYDE, of Denchworth, Berks.
50. John LAMBE, lord of the manor of Coulston, Wilts.; bur. 17 March 1614/5
(PCC will) 51. Cicely BROWNE

Great-Great-Great-Great Grandparents
96. John ERNLE, Esq., of Bourton manor, Bishops Cannings, d. 1556 97. Lucy
COOKE, daughter of Thomas COOKE, merchant, of Salisbury, Wilts.
98. William HYDE, Esq., of Denchworth, Berks., d. 1551 99. Margery CATER, d.
1562 100. John LAMBE, d.v.p. ca 1546 101. Edith ADLAM (d. 1577), later wife
of John Westwell 102. Robert BROWNE (Brown/Broun/Broune), Esq., of
Walcot(t), Northants.
103. NN

Great-Great-Great-Great-Great Grandparents 192. John ERNLE, The Elder, of
Fosbury and Bishops Cannings, Wilts. (elder brother of Sir John ERNLE(Y),
Chief Justice of the Common Pleas, 1519-20) d.?
193. Anne DARELL, daughter of Constantine DARELL, of Littlecote, Ramsbury,
Wilts., by Joan COLLINGBOURNE, relict of a Mr Holte, and daughter of Robert
COLLINGBOURNE, of Collingbourne Kingston, Wilts.
194. Thomas COOKE, merchant, of Salisbury (PCC will) 195. NN 196. Oliver
HYDE, Esq., of Denchworth, Berks., d. 1516 197. Anne LOVINGCOTT 198. John
CATER, Esq., of Letcombe Regis, Berks.
199. Margaret AUDLET, daughter of John AUDLET, Esq., of Woburn, Beds.
200. Aldhelm LAMBE d. post 1546
201. Ruth BUTTON, daughter of William BUTTON, Esq., of Alton Priors,
Overton, Wilts., and Anne or Agnes CATER (? of the same family as 99,
possibly a sister of 99) 202. John ADLAM, clothier, of Westbury, Wilts.
203. Marjorie NN

I would, of course, be most grateful for any additions to or corrections of
the foregoing. I would also welcome pointers to any relevant reference works
or source material that listers may know of.

As far as I have been able to determine (and that without all the desired
corroboration), the only likely gateway ancestor leading to known early
mediaeval (and earlier) ancestry is Anne DARELL (number 193 above), wife of
John ERNLE.

Thank you.

Richard

*=see my post on Sir John ERNLE, Chief Justice of the Common Pleas
1519-1520, which deals with the Pennsylvania/Delaware colonist John PHILLIPS
and his nephews.

-----Original Message-----
From: Gordon Kirkemo [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: February 8, 2005 1:44 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Ancestry of Thomas de London, lord of Kidwelly?

John,

I, too, have a Cogswell descent. I did note the reference to Robert
Cogswell and Alice in MichaelAnne's posting. Is anything more known about
the Adlam line?

And thank you MichaelAnne for posting that information.

Gordon Kirkemo

-----Original Message-----
From: John Brandon [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 12:24 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Ancestry of Thomas de London, lord of Kidwelly?

In 1545 the manor, with its capital messuage, and the lands leased
with it to John Whatley, Leigh Common, and all appurtenances were conveyed

to John Adlam, clothier, of Westbury, who also received other rents due to
the priory from lands in Westbury. (Footnote 10) John died seised of the
manor in the same year leaving as his heirs his daughters Edith, wife of
John Lambe, and Alice, wife of Robert Cogswell. (Footnote 11) Edith married
secondly John Westwell, who, after Edith's death in 1577, held the manor
for life. (Footnote 12) It then passed to John Lambe, Edith's son by her
first marriage.
(Footnote 13) John Lambe died in 1615 holding half the manor and was
succeeded by his son, John. (Footnote 14) This John sold his half of the
manor to Sir James Ley (cr. Earl of Marlborough 1626) in 1615.
(Footnote 15) The other half, which passed on the death of Alice Cogswell in
1606 to her grandson, Roger, (Footnote 16) had been sold by him to Sir James
Ley in 1611. (Footnote 17) Ley thus acquired the entire manor of Leigh
Priors, which thenceforth followed the same descent as the capital manor.

*This is very off-topic for this thread, but I couldn't let pass
MichaelAnne's quote from the VCH Wilts. concerning the manor of Leigh Priors
in Westbury, as it is of interest to descendants the New England Cogswell
family (this includes Nat Taylor and me--any probably others).

The Adlams were a fairly wealthy family of clothiers from Westbury.
Doug, your account of the Baynard family of Wiltshire in RPA mentions a
daughter who married an "Ambrose Adlaine" (if I'm remembering correctly).
"Ambrose Adlam" may actually be the correct name.

[12-stringer]

<[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...

I mention carpetbaggers because that is who was in political control in
Georgia at that time. If I remember correctly Georgia was still under
Reconstruction government until a disputed presidential election (can't
recall which
one) when an agreement was reached between the Republicans and Democrats
that
even though it appeared the Democrats had won they would allow the
Republicans
to hold the office if the Republicans would agree to remove all of the
Reconstructions governments in the South.

Dern ya, you have piqued my interst. Now I must go find out what
election
that was.


Gordon Hale
Grand Prairie, Texas

Hayes-Tilden, 1876.

[Gjest]

Adrianchanning wrote : "At his death, Yatton passed to his great nephew Roger Seymour, ancestor of the Dukes of
Somerset."

Adrian can you discuss this lineage from Peter to Roger and eventually to the Dukes of Somerset ?

I was examining part of this using Leo's site http://www.genealogics.org and found that Somerset appears to have descended

evidently prior to 1547 it was in the king's hand
When Edward VI acceeded, his "handler" took the title
Edward Seymour, 1st Duke of Somerset 1547-52 beheaded

This Seymour, Great-grandson became
William Seymour, 2nd Duke of Somerset 1660
holding the title only four weeks.

It then passed to his grandson William the son of his son Henry who had died in 1654. So we then get
William Seymour (1652-71), 3rd Duke of Somerset

It appears the title next went to William 2nd's next son John Seymour who became 4th Duke of Somerset and died in 1675

I found it interesting to see a jump of a hundred years between the 1st and 2nd Dukes. A little more digging uncovered an interloper.

The beautiful Robert Carr who struck the fancy of King James so much that he made him Earl of Somerset in 1613 which post I'm presuming he held until between 1616 (inquiry started) and 1622 (released from prison).

So it appears there's some discrepancy in the numbering or we have a later creation starting in 1660, prior to which the title was perhaps in the hand of the king.

Will Johnson

[Matthew Rockefeller]

Now, Will, you're asking me to document a lineage, which I didn't even
compile. Next you'll be asking me to document George Washington for
you, because you question his existence. Get it straight in your head,
I'm not bending over backwards to prove something to you. I post here
to help people who want to learn, and to learn myself on occassion. My
purpose for posting here is not teaching you everything I know. Last
time I checked you weren't the Chief Herald of anything, or am I
mistaken?

Also, just because something isn't published, with rave reviews, in a
book by an author you worship, doesn't mean something isn't accurate. A
lot of useful information can be found in privately published books and
yes, even websites on occassion. I also have hand written genealogies
of Baha'u'llah's family tree, but they mainly include relatives and not
the descent fully from David, which comes from, yes, published books,
so you'll be happy.

I am however putting together a PDF file containg my lineage from King
David, through Baha'u'llah, which will include a bibliography that
might be of interest to you. If you wish, I can send you the PDF file
when I get it finished. It should just be a week or so hopefully, if I
get time to work on it. Although, I am going to be busy this weekend. I
have a little research I want to do on the wives of a few generations,
mainly of their father's full names and exact titles, as to make the
tree more complete. I'm sure I'll be adding to it in time as I learn
more about the said in-laws. I just found another link to the Tang
dynasty a couple days ago, which I will be including as well. I will
also be including biographical information for many generations of
Davidic princes, especially the kings of Mazandaran. I would like to
include a picture of myself with my replica sword of the davidic
dynasty, as described by the tradition of sephardic jews in spain, but
it hasn't been delivered yet, so I doubt that it will be on my first
PDF file, but probably on my future website.

As I have stated in a couple private emails to others, I believe I am
the last male-line descendant of Baha'u'llah. There is only one child
on two of the compiled genealogies that I'm not positive of the gender,
but I believe, do the positioning after the older sister, must have
been a girl, but unfortunately the child's name was not listed, but
perhaps this means that the child died as an infant. To any who may be
curious as well, I understand that there are descendants of one of
Baha'u'llah's brothers living in Israel, and they, his brothers, have
documented descendants to this day as well.

Matthew

[Gjest]

That's an awful lot of hand waving when all I asked for was one source. So do you have a source for any part of your line? If so what is it?

By the way I do. This isn't idle conversation. I have been researching your line of Rockefellers in order to prove or disprove your statements. Just so you know. Now you spring on us this idea that you're also a descendent of the incarnation of God. Which I find pretty ... interesting.
Will

[Matthew Rockefeller]

Yes, that's the line I was refering to. Lao Tzu's real name was Li Erh
and the Tang dynasty derived their traditional descent from him, but
yes that might have been later grandization of their lineage, since
we've got a whole lot of generations of nearly unknown individuals I'm
assuming. I've actually not seen the entire descent line from Li Erh,
and have been searching for it in fact. Mommaerts simply states that
the Tang dynasty was descended from Lao Tzu. I should also clearly
state that Baha'u'llah never claimed descent from Lao Tzu.

[Matthew Rockefeller]

It's my royal inclination to hand wave and say continue. Sorry, that
was a personal joke, after recently rewatching The Man in the Iron
Mask. One source from my bibliography on the rulers of Mazandaran and
Ruyan, we can do that.

Ibn Isfandiyar, Muhammad b. al-Hasan. Ta'rikh-i Tabaristan (1216).
Trans. Edward G. Browne, An Abridged Translation of the History of
Tabaristan (London: E.J. Brill, 1905)

By the way Tabaristan and Mazandaran are just different names for the
same place in Persia.

If you're seriously interested, then that's great, but it seems to me
like you're always out to disprove every single word I say, which
naturally offends me.

On another note, I am questioning the nature of the DNA testing that I
previously had mentioned about the descendants of Makhir Thierry, as I
still have not learned the nature of testing done. I have spoken with a
DNA researcher, who is "in the know" with the DNA testing done by the
Davidic Dynasty organization in Israel. He had explained to me how
different Davidic families were proven to be relations, just as the
cohens were proven to be relations, and discussed it in detail, some of
which was above my head, not studying genetics myself. But I do not
think any claimed descendants of Makhir have been proven to be related
to the Dayans or Aghsans in the male-line.

I would be interested on hearing any information you have found on the
Roquefeuils. I have a PDF file you might be interested in on the family
that I can send you if you wish, but I must warn it's in French, but
you can probably still figure out the genealogical charts even if you
don't speak French. If you can read French, then better yet.

Matthew

[Gjest]

"If you're seriously interested, then that's great, but it seems to me like you're always out to disprove every single word I say, which naturally offends me."

Yes I would be interested in your file showing your descent from William Avery Rockefeller 1810-1906 and from Baha U'llah. I would not be interested in anything prior to 1800.
Thanks
Will

[norenxaq]

Matthew Rockefeller wrote:

Yes, that's the line I was refering to. Lao Tzu's real name was Li Erh
and the Tang dynasty derived their traditional descent from him, but
yes that might have been later grandization of their lineage, since
we've got a whole lot of generations of nearly unknown individuals I'm
assuming. I've actually not seen the entire descent line from Li Erh,
and have been searching for it in fact. Mommaerts simply states that
the Tang dynasty was descended from Lao Tzu. I should also clearly
state that Baha'u'llah never claimed descent from Lao Tzu.

Ssu-ma Ch'ien does give a descent of Lao Tzu to his time (c. 100 BC),
albeit with a gap. I also have a chart showing Tang ancestors back to the
Han dynasty, but it has gaps as well. Nor do the people at the top of the
Tang chart and the bottom of Ssu-ma Ch'ien's list co-incide

[Paul K Davis]

As part of my occasional routine verification of things I read, I checked
on the Rockefeller line in question, and found appropriate entries in the
census indices at Ancestry.com to which I subscribe. For example, Avery
Rockefeller, the claimed great grandfather of Matthew, is listed in the
1930 census as 25 years old and born in CT. He is also in the Social
Security Death Index, born 11 Sep 1902 and died May 1986, last residence
Greenwich, Fairfield county, CT.

I would conclude that Matthew is a rather young guy (at least by my
standards, I'm 58).

-- PKD [Paul K Davis, [email protected]]

[Original Message]
From: <[email protected]
To: <[email protected]
Date: 2/9/2005 4:22:37 PM
Subject: Re: The descent of Baha'u'llah

That's an awful lot of hand waving when all I asked for was one source.
So do you have a source for any part of your line? If so what is it?

By the way I do. This isn't idle conversation. I have been researching
your line of Rockefellers in order to prove or disprove your statements.

Just so you know. Now you spring on us this idea that you're also a
descendent of the incarnation of God. Which I find pretty ... interesting.
> Will

[Gjest]

In a message dated 2/9/2005 8:58:59 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

As part of my occasional routine verification of things I read, I checked
on the Rockefeller line in question, and found appropriate entries in the
census indices at Ancestry.com to which I subscribe. For example, Avery
Rockefeller, the claimed great grandfather of Matthew, is listed in the
1930 census as 25 years old and born in CT. He is also in the Social
Security Death Index, born 11 Sep 1902 and died May 1986, last residence
Greenwich, Fairfield county, CT.

I agree that Avery Rockefeller was a real person. In fact I've found
verification of the line from Avery back to 1800. Of course going from Avery to
Matthew is the tricky part then isn't it? And we haven't even touched on the
ascent to Baha U'llah through his son Muhammad who was dispossessed and made
anathema by his brother.
Will

[Gjest]

In a message dated 2/9/2005 9:40:04 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

I agree that Avery Rockefeller was a real person. In fact I've found
verification of the line from Avery back to 1800. Of course going from
Avery to
Matthew is the tricky part then isn't it? And we haven't even touched on
the
ascent to Baha U'llah through his son Muhammad who was dispossessed and made

anathema by his brother.
Will

Let me add for those unfamiliar with who Baha U'llah is, he claimed to be a
new messiah, incarnation, or whatever word you choose. The Baha'i faith
believes that Jesus, Muhammed, Buddha, Zoroaster, Abraham and Krishna were all
incarnations of the One God to each of their own peoples and times.
Baha U'llah then was the most recent one of these. Upon his death there
was a power struggle of sorts between his sons and Muhammad was the one on the
out. At any rate you can read the continuing struggle between historians and
the "faithful" about these people here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bab
Will Johnson

[Renia]

Paul K Davis wrote:

As part of my occasional routine verification of things I read, I checked
on the Rockefeller line in question, and found appropriate entries in the
census indices at Ancestry.com to which I subscribe. For example, Avery
Rockefeller, the claimed great grandfather of Matthew, is listed in the
1930 census as 25 years old and born in CT. He is also in the Social
Security Death Index, born 11 Sep 1902 and died May 1986, last residence
Greenwich, Fairfield county, CT.

I would conclude that Matthew is a rather young guy (at least by my
standards, I'm 58).

Born 1985, it would appear. Very young.

Renia

[starbuck95]

Thus I am kin to all their COGSWELL descendants.

You might be interested in some of the "illustrious" descendants of the
New England Cogswells: Princess Diana and her children; American
Presidents John Adams, John Quincy Adams, and Calvin Coolidge; authors
Ralph Waldo Emerson, Nathaniel Hawthorne, Robert Frost, Tennessee
Williams, and Thomas Pynchon (I think they are the American family with
the largest number of great writers among their descendants).

[Mark]

An interesting post on the Churchill Museum thread from Mr R:

Winston was a curious man, and defintely quite the leader. I love
reading his quotes. As he once said, "History will be kind to me for I
intend to write it." One of my favorite quotes is "Men stumble over the
truth from time to time, but most pick themselves up and hurry off as
if nothing happened." Amen to that.

God save the Queen!

Matthew

Mmm. "History will be kind to me for I intend to write it."

[Gjest]

In reply to Louise Staley, I have an unverified and mostly unsourced
Blanchminster line, which might be worth examining, as follows:-

1. Sir Ranulph Blanchminster, living 1265
+Lucy, d and h of Peter Toret
2. Sir Reginald Blanchminster
+unknown
3. Sir Ranulph Blanchminster (d. 1348: his Will is preserved)
+ Alice ?
4. Alice Blanchminster (?sole d and h)
+ Sir Richard Hiwis
5. Emma Hiwis (?sole d and h)
+ Sir John Coleshull
6. Sir John Coleshull II (1391-1418: there is an IPM
for him)
+ Anna ?
7. Joan Coleshull (d. 20 Dec 1497: there is an IPM)
+ (1) Sir Renfrey Arundel of Lanhearne, d.1434
8. Renfrey Arundel
8. John Arundel, Bishop of Coventry and
(1502) Exeter
8. Elizabeth
+ (1) William Whittington of Pauntley
d. 1470
+ (2) Nicholas Brome of Baddesley
Clinton (in 1473)
+ (2) John Nanfan

A document dated 13 Sept 1421, evidencing Joan Coleshull's first marriage to
Renfrey Arundel, is in the Cornwall Record Office at reference AR/19/21.
The marriage settlement of Nicholas Brome and Elizabeth Whittington nee
Arundel, dated 20 Dec 1473, is in the Shakespeare's Birthplace Record Office at
DR/3/264. Their daughter Constance married Edward Ferrers, son and heir of Sir
Henry Ferrers, before March 1498.

There is a promising file in the Cornwall Record office "Notes and papers on
history of the Blanchminster family and estates" - reference P216/25/334, said
to go back to the 13th century. The estates appear to have included the
lordship of the Isles of Scilly (held in chief by an annual rent of puffins!),
which descended to the Coleshulls, and also a castle at Stratton near Bude, where
Sir Ralph endowed an aisle for the church by his Will.
MM

[starbuck95]

Page 42 of the 1623 Wiltshire Visitation shows that "Johanna filia
Ansell Lambe" married Hugo Jones. Their son, "Francis Jones de Penrose
in com. Cornubiae" also married a Lambe: "Elizab. filia Joh'is Lambe
de Colston in com. Wilts militis."

http://www.uk-genealogy.org.uk/england/ ... s/p46.html

[Gjest]

The people of Britain, and they must remain the people, i.e populus, Hoi
Poloi.....loved the attraction of Princess Diana, after all she could never be
called 'pretty'. Grace Kelly was pretty, as is Michelle Pfeiffer, Nicole
Kidman, Halle Berry....
Are the people to determine who marries who in Public life? They don't like
Mrs Blair because she has 'ideas above her station', and she's got a mouth big
enough to fit a tank. They don't like Princess michael of Kent because she's
a German and also happens to be somewhat more intelligent as well as being
rather attractive and voluble. They don't like anyhting that stinks of
different. Or is it?
Does this really matter to a Medieval genealogist? Will a Medieval
Genealogist bow to the 'petty' mores of the populus?
Prince Charles is typical of the old-moneyed and well-connected classes. He
comes from a dysfunctional family, has intellect but little intelligence and
some 'intriguing' ideas.
Can we leave this news alone as it seems to be the only 'gossip' around as
there seems to be little news?

regards
Peter de loriol

[starbuck95]

Also --

http://www.uk-genealogy.org.uk/england/ ... s/p43.html

[Gjest]

Dear Newsgroup,
I think this marriage is way overdue. Charles fell
in love with Camilla Shand before She married Andrew Parker - Bowles and ages
before He ever met Lady Diana Spencer. He wanted to marry her , but Prince
Philip and therefore Her Majesty didn`t think her good enough and their marriage
was forbidden. Then Charles and his parents agreed that Diana would make a
good Queen and He married her. She gave him two heirs, got sick of his still
being lovesick for Camilla and commenced having too public affair. The Hub bub of
the marriage was followed by that of separation, and finally divorce. The
Queen declared that Diana should no longer be considered HRH nor Princess of
Wales, but a vocal section of the People raised an even greater hubbub concerning
that pronouncement and I almost think that She resinded her decree. As far as a
morganatic marriage is concerned, I don`t believe this would be one as
Camilla is being raised in rank to either HRH Princess or HRH Princess Consort,
(After King Charles III or George VII, whichever His Majesty will prefer, ascends
the throne) which while not Queen is still, equality being what it is now
between the sexes, as good as or superior to HRH Prince Philip`s style.
Sincerely,

James W Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA

[Gjest]

Following up on my listing of the holder of Somerset from 1500 to 1660, I was searching the A2A catalog to try to see what happened to Somerset in the huge gap between Edward Seymour beheaded in 1552 and his great-grandson William Seymour "2nd" [as found] Duke Somerset created in 1660.

Robert Carr, one of the favorites of the King (on account of his good looks) was created Earl of Somerset in 1613. That same year he married Frances Howard who had just divorced Robert Devereux, 3rd Earl of Essex for that very reason.

Robert and his wife were accussed of adultery, witchcraft, perjury, and the murder of Sir Thomas Overbury by poisoning while he was a prisoner of the tower.

So much for background. Now http://www.wikipedia.org says the inquiry into this started in 1616 and that both Robert and his wife Frances were released in 1622. So I was expecting to see that he was no longer "Duke of Somerset" after that period.

And yet:

1) TITLE DEEDS, SETTLEMENTS, WILLS AND MANORIAL DOCUMENTS
SUSSEX: SERIES I
WISTON
Manors of Wiston, Charlton, Buddington and Buncton; six messuages, ten cottages, windmill, watermill, four dovehouses, ten gardens, ten orchards, 1,500a. land, 300a. meadow, 780a. pasture, 60a. wood, 300a. heath and broom, 60s. worth of rent, free warren and view of frankpledge.

FILE - Assignment of fee farm rent; (a) Robert [6th] Earl of Somerset and Sir Thomas Sherley, jnr.; (b) Sir Thomas Bennett, kt., citizen and alderman of London; (c) Nicholas Harman and Thomas Catchmay of London, esquires. - ref. WISTON/3642 - date: 2 Feb 1621/2

2) FILE - Release from (a) Robert [6th] Earl of Somerset, to (b) Lionel [1st] Earl of Middlesex - ref. WISTON/3646 - date: 26 Nov 1626

3) FINCH HATTON (KIRBY)
Catalogue Ref. FH
Creator(s): Finch-Hatton family of Kirby, Northamptonshire
THE FINCH-HATTON MANUSCRIPTS
FILE [no title] - ref. FH2820 - date: 6 Chas I 1629/30]
[from Scope and Content] Several answer of Robert Earl of Somerset

4) The Russell Collection
Catalogue Ref. R
Creator(s): Trustees of the Bedford Settled Estates
Correspondence of the Russell family and the Bedford Estate
RUSSELL ESTATE CORRESPONDENCE
Correspondence TO THE 4TH EARL
FILE - Letter from Earl of Somerset, Buckingham House. - ref. R3/10/2 - date: 17 Feb 1636
[from Scope and Content] Reads- The Earl of Somerset promiseth to the Duchess of Buckingham and my Lord Chamberlain to give the Earl of Bedford, for the match between his son and the Lady Anne Carr (Earl's daughter) £5,000, and to assure his land in Scotland for performance; certain conditions attached. Signed: R. Somerset.


5) House of Lords
Catalogue Ref. HL
Creator(s): House of Lords
Records of the Parliament Office, House of Lords
House of Lords: Parliament Office: Journal Office
[Access Conditions] All records are open.
House of Lords: Journal Office: Main Papers - ref. HL/PO/JO/10
House of Lords: Journal Office: Main Papers 1509-1700
FILE - Main Papers - ref. HL/PO/JO/10/1/61 - date: 11 Jun 1641 - 16 Jun 1641
[from Scope and Content] 12 June 1641 -- Petition of William Hobson, clerk, that a pretended protection granted by the Earl of Somerset to Mr Thyn, who is not in any way a servant or retainer of the Earl, may be discharged.
[from Scope and Content] 1 The answer of the Earl of Somerset.

So it appears that Robert Carr was Earl until at least 1641.

On a sidenote, his daughter Anne DID marry the Duke of Bedford's heirs evidently:

6) ILLUSTRATIONS Catalogue Ref. Z 49
Prints purchased from Hockliffes, Bedford (and one photo.)
FILE - Anne, Countess of Bedford. - ref. Z 49/201 - date: 1615-1684
[from Scope and Content] (Anne was the daughter of the Earl of Somerset, born when her mother was a prisoner in the Tower of London


Comments appreciated.
Will Johnson

[John Parsons]

Comments interspersed below....

From: "John Steele Gordon" <[email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: CHARLES & CAMILLA - ITS OFFICIAL
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 14:16:34 -0500

[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
Just been announced - Camilla will NOT be queen but will be known as
Princess Consort when Charles inherits the throne.

I seem to recall that at the height of the Mrs. Simpson crisis, Edward VIII
suggested a morganatic marriage. Walter Monckton then put the instant
kibosh
on that idea as follows:

1) There is no precedent in English law for a morganatic marriage.

2) Therefore an act of Parliament would be required.

3) Acts of Parliament require "whereas clauses" (I forget the legal term),
stating the purpose of the legislation.

4) Therefore the act would have to read, "Whereas the wife of the King is
automatically queen; and whereas the woman the King wishes to marry is not
fit to be queen; therefore be it enacted . . . ."

To the best of my recollection, the morganatic scheme was hatched in Fleet
Street and was then passed over lunch to Wallis Simpson by the son of one of
the press barons (was it Esmond Harmsworth?). She had no idea what a
morganatic marriage is, he explained it to her ("something to do with the
Habsburgs," she recalled for her memoirs) & agreed to pass the idea on to
the king. He was skeptical but discussed it with Walter Monckton, who
responded with the arguments JSG lists above ("so that she may carry in
solitary splendor the brand of unfitness to be the king's wife...."). In
fact, it was Stanley Baldwin and the Cabinet who put the kibosh on a
morganatic marriage after the governments of the Dominions were consulted
and unanimously rejected any possibility of the king marrying Mrs Simspon
and retaining the throne.

So, my question: The Queen has undoubted power to determine by royal
warrant
the "style" of Camilla once she marries Charles--denying her HRH if she
chose, just as Mrs. Simpson was denied it. Indeed, Diana, after the
divorce,
was no longer HRH herself.

True. Bear in mind, however, that Wallis Simpson was not denied the
attribute of HRH by Royal Warrant; it was rather the letters patent creating
the dukedom of Windsor for the former Edward VIII that specified that
neither his wife nor his children (if any) would be HRHs.

The Queen, by royal warrant, gave to Philip the style and title of a prince
of the United Kingdom in 1957, because men, of course, acquire no dignity
by
right of marriage. But is not the wife of the Prince of Wales automatically
Princess of Wales, just as Mrs. Simpson automatically became Duchess of
Windsor upon her marriage to Edward? And, therefore, once Charles accedes
to
the throne, won't she automatically be Queen?

Correct. In fact several of the duke of Windsor's biographers have pointed
out that when his brothers the dukes of York and Gloucester had married, it
was explicitly stated by the Palace that the brides would assume royal rank,
"in keeping with the settled principle that the wife takes the husband's
status." There is considerable debate as to whether George VI acted
constitutionally in denying Wallis the HRH, although these arguments are
based on letters patent of Queen Victoria, still in force in 1936, providing
that the Sovereign's children, the wives of the Sovereign's sons and the
children of the Sovereign's sons are HRH.

Is legislation being contemplated to handle this awkward legal reality (in
which case the whereas clauses should make for interesting reading), or is
it just going to be a conspiracy not to call Camilla what, in legal fact,
she will become: Princess of Wales and, eventually, Queen?

For all we have yet seen, the conspiracy scenario seems a logical
conclusion. We might note here that French law has never recognized
morganatic marriages either, but Louis XIV and his son, the Grand Dauphin,
had private second marriages and those wives simply stayed in the background
and never claimed the title of queen or dauphine. Voluntary assumption of a
status lesser than her husband's seems to be what has been agreed upon in
the present case. After all, her relationship with him, while certainly
widely known, has hardly been of an official nature heretofore; why should
that change with their marriage? She may well feel comfortable taking a
lower step on the dais.

To put it another way: is anybody likely to step up and try to FORCE Millie
to call herself princess of Wales or queen if she doesn't feel like
accepting those dignities?


Regards

John P.

[Louise Staley]

Dear Michael,

Thanks for posting this. I also have that line, plus a bit more, which
I've reproduced below. I have sources of varying quality for all of this,
the Arundell and later generations are well attested.

It appears Alice Blancminster, who married Sir Richard Hewis may have had
a sister, Cecilia, who married Thomas Neville of Fencotes. This is based
on a later law suit over Stratton and various other Blancminster lands in
1486.

From the IPM of Joan Houghton 13 Henry VII
"In trinity term 1 Hen.VII [1486] a fine was levied between Robert
Throgmerton and Edward Bartlet, plaintiffs, and William Houghton kt., and
Joan his wife deforciants of the manors of Byenamye, Stratton, Swancote,
St Mary Wke, St. Cler Colshill, Leskerdcolshill and Wykenurg with lands
[details given] and 20s. rent there and in Tremyeth and the advowson of
St. Mary Wyke which were by that fine settled on the said William and Joan
and her heirs with remainders to Thomas Nevell kinsman and heirs of
William Nevell of Pykell, chr. and. the right heirs of Guy de
Blanchminster late rector of Lansalos."

In my notes, but unfortunately unsourced, I have that Thomas Neville of
Rolleston claimed a share in the Blancminster lands as the great-grandson
of Cecilia Blancminster.

Also there is more information on the Blancminsters in "The Story of
Stratton Church" by Frederick James Bone, (1919) William Brendan & Sons:
Plymouth. This book is held in the Cornwall library at Bude and Launceston
and also at the Devon and Exeter Institution Library in Exeter. I have not
seen more than a small excerpt of it.

What I don't have is any way to link the Blancminster family of William
Blancminster of Shropshire? (d bef 1260) and his possible wife, Eva
Fitzwarine, to the Blancminsters of Cornwall although it appears they were
connected as the parish history of Stratton Cornwall makes that link, as
does the Bone book noted above, although as I said, I haven't seen enough
of the Bone book to know if the exact relationships are given.

Descendants of Ralph Blancminster of Binamy Castle, Stratton, Isles of
Scilly etc.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1-Ralph Blancminster of Binamy Castle, Stratton, Isles of Scilly
etc. d. 23 Jun 1348, (Stratton, CON, ENG)
+Bertha 'The Fair Ladye of the Castle' Wife of Ralph
Blancminster
|-2-Alice Blancminster co-heiress
| +Sir Richard Hewis Knt., Lord of Chagford d. 1360
| |-3-Emma Hewis heiress of her brother William d. 14 Oct 1413
| | +Sir Robert Tresilian Chief Justice of the King's Bench d.
| | 19 Feb 1388, The Tower, LND, ENG
| | +Sir John Colshull Citizen & Vintner of London d. After
| | 1413, m. 30 Nov 1388, Frideystrete, LND, ENG
| | |-4-Sir John Colshull b. Abt 1392, d. 28 Oct 1415,
| | | Agincourt, , Lorraine, France
| | +Anne Challons
| | |-5-Joan Colshull heiress of her brother Sir John d. 20
| | | Dec 1497
| | | +Sir Renfrey Arundell of Treloy & Trefink d. 1434, m. 9
| | | Sep 1421, par. Sir John V 'the Magnificent' Arundell
| | | K.B., Lord of Lanherne and Annora Lambourne heiress of
| | | Lambourn, St Goran, Lansladron etc.
| | | |-6-Elizabeth Arundell of Treloy & Trefink d. After 1465
| | | | +Sir Edward Stradling b. Abt 1429, d. 1461, par. Sir
| | | | John Stradling and Joan Dauntsey heiress
| | | | |-7-Sir John Stradling of Dauntsey b. 1450, d. 1471,
| | | | | s.p.m.
| | | | +William Lygon d. After 1465, m. Bef 1465
| | | |-6-Renfrey Arundell of Treloy & Trefink d. 6 Jun 1468,
| | | | (London, ENG)
| | | | +Anne Ogard d. Bef 5 May 1521
| | | | |-7-Sir Edmund Arundell Lord of Egloshayle b. Bef 8
| | | | | Oct 1466, d. 27 Nov 1503, s.p.
| | | | |-7-Anne Arundell heiress of Treloy & Trefink b. Abt
| | | | | 1463, d. 25 Aug 1507, s.p.
| | | |-6-Elizabeth Arundell of Treloy & Trefink
| | | | +William Whittington Lord of Upton Haselow, WAR d. 8
| | | | Nov 1470, (London, ENG)
| | | | |-7-John Whittington co-heir of Anne Croker b. Abt
| | | | | 1464, d. 1 Jun 1525, (Pauntley, GLS, ENG)
| | | | +Nicholas Brome of Baddesley Clinton d. 10 Oct 1516,
| | | | s.p.m., m. After 20 Dec 1473
| | | | |-7-Isabel Brome
| | | | |-7-Constance Brome b. Abt 1485, d. 30 Sep 1551
| | | |-6-John Arundell Bishop of Exeter d. 15 Mar 1504, s.p.
| | | +Sir John Nanfan Knt. d. After 18 Jul 1457,
| | | (Birtsmorton, WOC, ENG), m. Bef 1449
| | | |-6-Isabel Nanfan heiress of her brother Richard
| | | | +Richard Bolles of Haugh, LIN
| | | | |-7-John Bolles d. Bef 21 Feb 1533, s.p.
| | | | |-7-Richard Bolles co-heir of Anne Croker b. Abt 1519,
| | | | | bur. 26 Jan 1549, Louth, LIN, ENG
| | | |-6-Sir Richard Nanfan d. Mar 1506, s.p.
| | | +Margaret Wife of Richard Nanfan d. Bef 8 Apr 1510,
| | | s.p.
| | | +Sir William Houghton Knt. d. 28 Feb 1508, s.p., m. Bef
| | | 1483
| | |-5-Sir John Colshull Knt., of Tremordet b. Abt 1417, d.
| | | 30 Mar 1484, s.p.
| | +Elizabeth Cheney co-heiress of Humphrey Stafford Earl
| | of Devon b. 2 Feb 1422, d. 1492, s.p., m. Bef 1439,
| | par. Sir Edmund Cheney and Alice Stafford
| |-3-John Hewis d. , s.p.
|-2-Cecilia Blancminster co-heiress
| +Thomas Neville d. 1365
| |-3-William Neville M.P., of Fencotes d. After 1420
| +Elizabeth Fencotes heiress d. After 1402, par. Sir Thomas
| Fencotes
| |-4-Robert Neville of Fencotes b. 1362, d. Between 1423 and
| | 1428
| | +Alice Wife of Robert Neville
| | |-5-Thomas Neville Lord of Rolleston b. Abt 1405, d. 1482
| | | +Elizabeth Babington b. Abt 1396, Chilwell, NTT, ENG,
| | | m. Abt 1417, par. Sir William Babington K.B., Chief
| | | Justice of the Common Pleas and Margery Martel heiress
| | | |-6-William Neville Lord of Rolleston d. 1510
| | | +Katharine Palmer co-heiress , m. 1474
| | | |-7-Thomas Neville of Holt d. Bef 14 Nov 1506
| | |-5-William Neville of South Leverton, NTT d. After 1467
| | +Joan Barker
| | |-6-George Neville of Ragnall, NTT b. Abt 1418
| | +Isabel Crofts
| | |-7-Robert Neville of Ragnell, NTT
| |-4-Isabel Neville of Fencotes
| +Sir Robert Woodford b. 1383, d. 22 Feb 1456, m. 1402
| |-5-Thomas Woodford of Ashby Folville, LEI d. , v.p.
| +Alice Berkeley , par. Lawrence Berkeley of Wymondham
| |-6-Ralph Woodford of Ashby Folville, LEI b. 1430, d. 4
| | Mar 1498, (Ashby Folville, LEI, ENG)
| +Elizabeth Villiers d. 9 Aug 1469, (Ashby Folville,
| LEI, ENG), m. Abt 1447, par. William Villiers of
| Brokesby and Joan Bellers
| |-7-Joan Woodford of Ashby Folville, LEI
|-2-Godwin Blancminster d. Bef 1348, v.p.
+
|-3-Sir John Blancminster b. Bef 1338, d. , s.p.
|-3-Guy Blancminster Rector of Lansalos d. After 1393, s.p.



Louise

On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 14:53:03 +0000 (UTC), <[email protected]
wrote:

In reply to Louise Staley, I have an unverified and mostly unsourced
Blanchminster line, which might be worth examining, as follows:-

1. Sir Ranulph Blanchminster, living 1265
+Lucy, d and h of Peter Toret
2. Sir Reginald Blanchminster
+unknown
3. Sir Ranulph Blanchminster (d. 1348: his Will is preserved)
+ Alice ?
4. Alice Blanchminster (?sole d and h)
+ Sir Richard Hiwis
5. Emma Hiwis (?sole d and h)
+ Sir John Coleshull
6. Sir John Coleshull II (1391-1418: there is an
IPM for him)
+ Anna ?
7. Joan Coleshull (d. 20 Dec 1497: there is an
IPM)
+ (1) Sir Renfrey Arundel of Lanhearne,
d.1434
8. Renfrey Arundel
8. John Arundel, Bishop of Coventry and
(1502) Exeter
8. Elizabeth
+ (1) William Whittington of
Pauntley d. 1470
+ (2) Nicholas Brome of Baddesley
Clinton (in 1473)
+ (2) John Nanfan

[Ladenheim-Gil, Randy]

Completely OT, as all of this is, but do you have a line into Prince Phillip
that no one else does? I've never heard that Charles had any intention of
marrying Camilla 30 years ago and was "forbidden" to do so.

Fascinating; do tell.

Randy

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 4:28 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Charles and Camilla, It`s Official.


Dear Newsgroup,
I think this marriage is way overdue. Charles fell

in love with Camilla Shand before She married Andrew Parker - Bowles and
ages
before He ever met Lady Diana Spencer. He wanted to marry her , but Prince
Philip and therefore Her Majesty didn`t think her good enough and their
marriage
was forbidden. Then Charles and his parents agreed that Diana would make a
good Queen and He married her. She gave him two heirs, got sick of his still

being lovesick for Camilla and commenced having too public affair. The Hub
bub of
the marriage was followed by that of separation, and finally divorce. The
Queen declared that Diana should no longer be considered HRH nor Princess of

Wales, but a vocal section of the People raised an even greater hubbub
concerning
that pronouncement and I almost think that She resinded her decree. As far
as a
morganatic marriage is concerned, I don`t believe this would be one as
Camilla is being raised in rank to either HRH Princess or HRH Princess
Consort,
(After King Charles III or George VII, whichever His Majesty will prefer,
ascends
the throne) which while not Queen is still, equality being what it is now
between the sexes, as good as or superior to HRH Prince Philip`s style.
Sincerely,

James W Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA


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[Gjest]

Dear Louise,
Thank you very much for the splendid detail given in your posting.
I have looked for the Shropshire Blanchminsters in the National Library of
Wales website, but found only one possibly helpful reference, to John
"Blaungmonstre" [!] as a witness to a deed dated circa 1300. There are numerous
references to people named de Albo Ministerio, but no William or John, Ralph or
Reginald, and no indication that we are looking at a single family.

The PRO yields the following:-

E210/227 Grant by Giles de Erdinton, to Robert le Estrange, of the manor of
Merbury, co Chester, with the land of Halehurst, co. Salop, which he had of the
grant of William de Albo Monasterio, for the yearly rent of a rose at
Midsummer ; in return for which Robert grants to Giles all his land in Rowelton and
Elwrthyn for 73s. yearly rent. Witnesses :- Sirs Roger de Clifford, Hamo
Lestrange (Extrango), John de Clinton, Odo de Hodenet, knights, and others (named) :
Chester Salop, St Peter ad Vincula 52 HIII (1268).
There is also a safe conduct for a servant of Sir Ralph B. in C81 (undated).

The a2a site contains references to 7 files mentioning people named "de Albo
Ministerio". The most interesting are:-

Shropshire Sandford of the Isle ref 465/2 (c 1256-60)
465/9 (c 1280)
<IMG SRC="http://www.a2a.org.uk/images/file.gif" WIDTH="32" HEIGHT="19" BORDER="0" DATASIZE="158">[from Scope and Content] Witnesses: Sir Ralph de Sontford,
Henry de Scavinton, Hugh de Stiele, Reginald Modi, Richard clerk of Mitneleg,
Nicholas de Hethe, William Chaplain of Whitchurch (Albi Monasterii)

Lancs Derby DDK/1400/4 refers to Sir John L'Estrange as being Lord of
Whitchurch 17th June 17 E III.

In his recent post re Thomas of London MichaelAnne (ClaudiusIO) gave the
following pedigree:-
<1. Havise de Dinan+ Fulk Fitz Warin [died 1198]
< 2. Fulk Fitz Warin [died aft. Oct. 8, 1250]+ Maud le Vavsour
< 3. Fulk Fitz Warin [died May 16, 1264]+ Constance Toeni
< 3. Havise Fitz Warin+ William Pantulf
< 3. Eve Fitz Warin+ William de Blanchminster
<snip>
< 4. Eleanor Blanchminster+ Robert le Strange [died Oct. 12, 1276]
< 5. John le Strange
< 5. Fulk le Strange+ Eleanor Giffard
<snip>

If that pedigree is accepted, it would seem likely that the Lordship of
Whitchurch (known in early Medieval times as Whitchurch Warenne) passed from the
Warennes to the L'Estranges with only one intervening generation of "de Albo
Monasterio" ownership.
Camden's Britannia refers to
"...the Barons Le Strange of Blackmere, who were surnamed Le Strange
commonly, and Extranei in Latin Records, for that they were strangers brought hether
by King Henry the Second, and in short time their house was farre propagated.
These of Blackmere were much enriched by an heire of William de Albo-monasterio
, or this Whit-Church, and also by one of the heires of John Lord Giffard of
Brimsfeild, of ancient nobility in Glocestershire, by the onely daughter of
Walter Lord Clifford."


I will try to locate some more sources.

The West Yorkshire Archives (Calderdale) have a Catalogue "Armytage of
Kirklees" which contains at KM/8 a Confirmation by William, Earl Warren (ob. 1240),
of the grant by Reinerus Flandrensis, son of William Flandrensis, to Kirklees
Nunnery, of lands, etc. Witnesses, Osbert Giffard, Auker de Freschenvill,
Willam de Albo Monasterio, Richard de Mednar, Baldwin de Hersin, Thomas de
Horbir, Seneschal of Earl Warrenne, William de Livet, Jordan de Heton, John de
Pleiz, clerk.

So at least it appears that the last Earl Warren did know someone called
William Blanchminster.

The first appearance of a Blanchminster in Cornwall which I have been able
to trace is that of Sir Ralph de Albo Monasterio, returned as a knight
available for military service in 17 E II -see Carew Survey of Cornwall, p45-6.
MM

[Douglas Richardson royala]

Dear Newsgroup ~

Some time ago, I posted a pedigree of the ancestry of Queen Eleanor of
Castile's mother, Jeanne de Dammartin, taken from Spanish sources
showing Jeanne's descent from the Castilian royal family by way of her
maternal grandmother, Alice of France (see copy of earlier post below).
The descent as outlined in the Spanish source suggests that a
dispensation would have been required for the marriage of Eleanor of
Castile's parents, King Fernando and Jeanne. For if Jeanne had the
Castilian descent as stated, then Fernando and Jeanne would have been
related in the 3rd and 4th degrees of consanguinity by virtue of common
descent from King Alfonso VII of Castile. This is too close for them
to have married without a dispensation.

Recently I learned that a dispensation was in fact granted for the
marriage of King Fernando and Jeanne de Dammartin. The dispensation is
dated 31 August 1237. It reportedly can be found in two sources:

Brunel, Recueil des actes des comtes de Ponthieu, 1026-1279 (1930), no.
304.

L. Auvray, Les registres de Gregoire IX, no. 3847.

I don't know the degrees of consanguinity which are stated in the 1237
dispensation, but if it is 3rd and 4th, then based on other evidence
assembled by me and others, I think this would be conclusive evidence
that Jeanne de Dammartin's grandmother, Alice of France, was the
daughter of Constance of Castile, which Constance was the daughter of
King Alfonso VII of Castile.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net


+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
COPY OF EARLIER POST:

Douglas Richardson wrote:

Dear Newsgroup ~

Below is another record which gives evidence of the identity of the
mother of Alice of France as Constance of Castile. This record is
taken from the Spanish source "Roderico Toletani Archiepiscopi" which
is found in the series, Recueil des Historiens des Gaules et de la
France, vol. 12 (1877), edited by
Léopold Delisle, pg. 383. It is available on the gallica website
at:

http://gallica.bnf.fr/.

This account concerns the Spanish ancestry of Jeanne de Dammartin,
2nd
wife of Fernando III, King of Castile and Leon, which Jeanne was the
mother of Eleanor of Castile, wife of King Edward I of England. It
traces Jeanne's descent from King Alfonso VII, through her
grandmother, Alice of France.

Jeanne and Fernando were married in 1237, and I assume this record
dates from about this time period. The modern editor indicates in a
footnote that Archbishop Roderico was in office from 1208 to 1247.
This record suggests that the Archbishop was fully aware that
Fernando
and Jeanne were related to one another within the forbidden degrees.
Whether or not Fernando and Jeanne obtained a dispensation to marry
has yet to be established.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

E-mail: [email protected]

- - - - - - - -

Source: Ex Roderico Toletani Archiepiscopi de Rebus Hispaniae Libris
IX

pg. 383 Libro Septimo

"Nunc as gesta Aldefonsi (VII.) Hispaniarum Regis, prout coepimus,
revertamur ... Habuit autem duas uxores, Berengariam atque Richam; ex
Berengaria genuit Sancium et Fernandum, Elisabeth et Beatiam.
Elisabeth nupsit Ludovico (VII.) Regi Francorum, ex qua genuit
filiam
quae dicta fuit Adeladis, et fuit uxor Comitis de Pontivo; et illa
Comitissa genuit Mariam, quae fuit mater Joannae Reginae Castellae et
Legionis."

The modern editor, Monsieur Delisle, added the following
information in a footnote regarding "Elisabeth" named in this
document: "Vulgatius dictam apud Gallos Constantiam." I believe
this mean that Elisabeth was commonly called Constance in France.

[Tony Hoskins]

Sorry for the misspellings, solecisms and French translation
remnants.

Cher M. Bunot,

You do very well in English, and I am grateful for your informative,
courteous, and cheerful presence among us!

Tony Hoskins
Santa Rosa, California

[D. Spencer Hines]

Prince Charles allegedly lost his virginity to Camilla, the older woman,
circa 1972, when Charles was about 24. Rather late for a man.

Lord Louis Mountbatten, the sailor, thought Camilla was "good mistress
material" for a Royal but didn't really have the proper qualities to
become Queen Consort and so advised Charles, who dithered, delved and
dallied? That's the story.

Great British Theatre -- It's The BEST Thing They Do.

They FUND The Royal Family -- Pay The Freight -- But We ALL Get The
ENTERTAINMENT.

Actors, Actresses, Directors And Screenwriters -- That's What The
British Produce....

Wonderful Stories -- That Resonate....

D. Spencer Hines

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Vires et Honor

[D. Spencer Hines]

Hmmmmmm...

Camilla seems to have had a Great-Great-Grandmother named Mary PARSONS,
who married Admiral Sir William Elmonstone. These two were the parents
of the notorious Alice Keppel [Alice Frederica Edmonstone Keppel]
(1869-1947).

Alice died after Camilla was born -- so perhaps there was a passing on
of the Royal Mistress baton at that time.

Mary Elizabeth PARSONS, who seems to have died in 1902, is any relation
to our own John Carmi 'Pogue' Parsons?

This might well explain his high interest in Camilla.

IF there IS a PARSONS link he and Camilla could even be, say fourth or
fifth cousins.

D. Spencer Hines

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Vires et Honor

[Ronald Karr]

Of course, if John Parsons can be believed, maybe Camilla's
not French-Canadian after all!

Ron Karr


John Parsons wrote:

Opinion remains divided as to whether Edward VII was the
biological father
of Mrs Keppel's younger daughter Sonia Keppel (1900-1986,
wife of the 3rd
Lord Ashcombe), who in the fullness of time became Millie's
maternal
grandmother. Chronologically the filiation is possible
(Mrs K's older
daughter Violet, remembered for her relationship with Vita
Sackville-West,
was certainly born before Mrs K. met the prince.) Lady
Ashcombe gave an
indication of her own beliefs about her parentage by
titling her memoirs
*Edwardian Daughter*. All that has ever been accepted as
certain or nearly
so, however, is that the Hon. Mr Keppel was the father of
neither Violet nor
Sonia.

[starbuck95]

Mary Elizabeth PARSONS, who seems to have died in 1902, is any
relation to our own >>John Carmi 'Pogue' Parsons?

This might well explain his high interest in Camilla.

Nah, it's probably just his well-known _idée fixe_ or master mania:
anything to do with Queens and queenliness ...

[D. Spencer Hines]

More On Alice Keppel.

Leo truly is a Romantic of the Old School -- A Victorian Romantic --
Bless 'Im.

DSH
---------------------

"Alice Edmonstone *aka Mrs. Keppel* (1869-1947)
Born 1869 Duntreath Castle, Loch Lomond
Died 11 September 1947 Villa dell'Ombrellino
Buried Firenze
Married 1 June 1891
Hon. George Keppel, son of William Coutts Keppel, 7th Earl
of Albemarle and Sophia Mary Macnab
Born 14 October 1865
Died 22 November 1947 London

Mrs. Alice Keppel had an interesting and romantic background. Her
grandfather, Lieutenant-Colonel John Whittle Parsons, while British
Governor of the Ionian Islands, fell in love and married a beautiful
Greek girl whom he took back to Scotland. Their daughter, Mary
Elizabeth Parsons, married Sir William Edmonstone, 4th Baronet, who as a
youth had entered the Royal Navy. When only sixteen he was wounded by
pirates. Sir William was thirty-one when he married Mary Elizabeth and
they became the parents of only the one son but eight daughters, of whom
Alice was the youngest.

Alice grew up at Duntreath Castle, the family home since the fifteenth
century. Her only brother, Archibald, was nearest in age to Alice and
they were like twins. She loved walking across the moors and joined the
gillies in their games of cricket. She had a sharp wit and grew up to
become the typical aristocratic Scotswoman, but was also kind,
without pettiness, prejudice or malice. She never spoke ill of anyone,
almost never lost her temper. "She not only had a gift of happiness but
she excelled in making others happy," according to a contemporary.

Her family was not very well off and the attractive Alice was expected
to marry a rich husband. However, she married for love. The Hon.
George Keppel, a son of the 7th Earl of Albemarle, was well-born,
handsome, charming but not rich.

They married in 1891 when he was twenty-six and she twenty-two.
However, she soon felt their financial restrictions and it has been
suggested that she took a wealthy lover.

Her first daughter was born in 1894, the father rumoured to be the rich
Ernest William Beckett, the future Lord Grimthorpe.

Probably early in 1898 she met the Prince of Wales and, within a matter
of weeks, Alice was his new official mistress.

The Prince was fifty-six and Alice twenty-nine. Apart from the obvious
attractions, the Prince also appreciated her as an accomplished
bridge-player. An ideal mistress for an older man, she became the great
love of Edward VII.

One of the first things the Keppels did was move house, from Wilton
Crescent to 30 Portman Square where her second daughter, Sonia, was born
in 1900.

Alexandra, the Princess of Wales, preferred the discreet Alice to the
Prince's previous mistress, Daisy Warwick, but still disliked her.
According to the Duchess of Sutherland, Daisy's half-sister, remarked
the Prince, was "a child, such a much pleasanter child since he changed
mistresses". Yet Alexandra was grateful as Alice kept the Prince in a
good temper, yet her presence at the annual regatta at Cowes still
always upset the Princess of Wales.

All through these years Alice's husband not only remained at her side
but was devoted to her. He neither complained nor showed jealousy.
Once, while at Baden, a Grand Duke asked him: "So you're a Keppel? Are
you related to the king's mistress?" But George Keppel ignored the
insult. To keep up their style of life, he had to go into trade and was
employed by Sir Thomas Lipton. According to their daughter the marriage
of George and Alice was "a companionship of love and laughter".

When Edward VII was dying and asked for Alice's presence, Queen
Alexandra reluctantly allowed her to come. However, when Edward VII
became unconscious, she hissed at the doctor, "Get that woman away."

To avoid publicity Alice and George moved out of their home and spent
some time with friends in Grafton Street. Thinking it better to be out
of England, Alice travelled to the Far East, Ceylon and China, staying
away for almost two years. On her return she bought a new house at 16
Grosvenor Street. During the First World War she helped her friend,
Lady Sarah Wilson, run her hospital in Boulogne.

Towards the end of the war her daughter Violet embarked on a love
affaire with Vita Sackville-West; to avoid scandal, she suggested that
her daughter marry Denys Trefusis.

The marriage did take place but then Violet threatened to divorce, so
Alice cut her daughter's allowance and this
was the beginning of the end of Violet's and Vita's affaire.

In 1927 the Keppels sold their Grosvenor Street house and moved to
Italy. Near Florence they bought the Villa dell'Ombrellino where they
lived, with the exception of the Second World War, for the rest of their
lives. When it was announced that Edward VIII was abdicating in order
to marry Wallis Simpson, her opinion was "things were done much
better in my day".

In 1940 they left Florence and returned to England where they stayed in
the country with their daughter Sonia.

However, becoming bored, she preferred "bombs to boredom" and so they
moved to London to stay the rest of the war years in the Ritz. During
this time in England, together with her daughter Violet, she paid a
visit to Queen Mary.

In 1946 they returned to their villa in Italy but soon it became
obvious that Alice was dying. However, this took a long time and one day
her daughter Violet tried to cheer her up: "Look at the view from your
window --- surely you love nature?" "Yes", Alice answered, "the nature
of the Ritz." She died aged seventy-eight and, heartbroken, George
Keppel died two months later.

Soon solemn Italian guides would point to their villa and, ironically,
tell tourists that there had lived "the last lover of Queen Victoria."

"Source: Leo van de Pas"
-----------------------

D. Spencer Hines

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Vires et Honor

[D. Spencer Hines]

So...

If Edward VII is actually Camilla's Great-Grandfather -- she and Charles
are [half] second cousins, once removed?

Deeeelightful!

More British Royal Fun & Games -- And The Brits, And The Tourists, Pay
For All Of It....

D. Spencer Hines

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Vires et Honor

""Ronald Karr"" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

| Of course, if John Parsons can be believed, maybe Camilla's
| not French-Canadian after all!
|
| Ron Karr
|
|
| John Parsons wrote:
| >
| >Opinion remains divided as to whether Edward VII was the
| biological father
| >of Mrs Keppel's younger daughter Sonia Keppel (1900-1986,
| wife of the 3rd
| >Lord Ashcombe), who in the fullness of time became Millie's
| maternal
| >grandmother. Chronologically the filiation is possible
| (Mrs K's older
| >daughter Violet, remembered for her relationship with Vita
| Sackville-West,
| >was certainly born before Mrs K. met the prince.) Lady
| Ashcombe gave an
| >indication of her own beliefs about her parentage by
| titling her memoirs
| >*Edwardian Daughter*. All that has ever been accepted as
| certain or nearly
| >so, however, is that the Hon. Mr Keppel was the father of
| neither Violet nor
| >Sonia.