LIBLINE/LIEBLINE in New Zealand

[gj00360]

Greetings all from Lower Hutt, New Zealand

I have a brickwall with my great-grandfather, known in New Zealand as Charles LIBLINE, born Kristiania, in 1848/9 and died at Taihape, NZ on 26 December 1926. Charles married Caroline MURCH in Wellington, NZ on 4 March 1876, and at the time of marriage had been resident in Wellington for 18 months (not necessarily in NZ for that period of time!). At the time of his marriage, NZ records didn't include details of the parents of bride and groom, and at his death, the NZ death entry in 1926 shows parent's details columns empty.

Family legend has it that he arrived in NZ as a seaman, jumped ship, and Anglicised his name from LEIBLEIN or LEIBLINE. I do, however, have an 1870 US Census entry in Iowa for Charles LIBLINE, aged 22, from Sweden (Sweden at this time ruling Norway?). When his daughter Mary Jane LIBLINE died in April 1885, the newspaper death notice included a request for Melbourne (Australia) papers to copy - I don't have a known connection to Melbourne with the MURCH family, so it may well be that Charles had family members in Australia.

Do these variations in this name have any connections with other forum members?

[Vidar Sigurd Øverlie]

Peter, I assume that your "Charles LIBLINE, born Kristiania, in 1848/9" is the person recorded as Carl Benedicht Lieblein, 15 years old and born in Kristiania, in the 1865 census

If that is the case you have both his parents and siblings recorded there. According to the phone directory there are many Liebleins living in Norway today but it was very few in 1865. Assume they all have a common ancestor that came to Norway before that time as Libeline is unlikely to be a family name originated in Norway.


Regards
Vidar

[gj00360]

Hi again Vidar,
I sent this to your email address a few weeks ago but got an autoreply just after you'd left Oman -
Thank you for your reply to my message on the forum and also the link to the relevant census page from 1865. It certainly looks like a strong possibility. My guess at the moment is that Peter Gottfried LIEBLEIN is 47 years old (presume Alder is age?), (the column Kjønn is sex?), born Christiania, but can you help me with his occupation of Bogholder i Akers Sparebank. Also the relationships are hans Kone (wife?), hans Datter (daughter?) and hans Søn (son?) Is the hans 'his'? Also for his wife Marie, does her entry show her married name Lieblein followed by f Fredriks.
This family is also shown in the IGI but with some different data. Carl Benedict LIEBLEIN is shown born 24 October 1850 at Mosvigen, Trondheim, Sor Trondelag, Norway. There are three 'Carl' entries which all seem to have different information but all show the parents as Peter Gottfried LIEBLEIN and Ingeborg Marie FREDRIKSEN. They are all patronal submissions from what I can see so no telling whether the data is from family documents or 'made to fit'. All have dates however - one entry for Carl shows a death date as well.
I'm a little stymied as what to do next. I guess the lack of knowledge of the Norwegian language makes me a little unsure of my next step. Are there searchable civil records for this period, and I suppose I would need to hire a researcher? I'd appreciate a little advice on what to do next.
Thanks again for your help and my best regards,
Peter

[Vidar Sigurd Øverlie]

Hi Peter

Greetings from Stavanger, Norway. Sorry for my late response.

Your translation of the Norwegian words appears all to be correct. The occupation "bokholder" can be translated to "accounting clerk". Peter Gottfried Lieblein was working in the bank, Akers Sparebank. His wife Marie’s maiden name was Fredriksen. The “f” in front of Fredriks. is an abbreviation for født (born).

According to one FamilySearch data set, Peter Gottfried Johansen Lieblein b. 1818, d. 1901 and (married in 1844) Ingeborg Maria Fredrichsdatter b. 1823, d. 1893 had the following children:
Petrine Francisca Lieblein b. 1843
Marie Lieblein b. 1843
Christiane Jensine Caroline Lieblein b. 1845
Oluf Andreas Soren Martinius Lieblein b. 1846
Carl Gottfried Lieblein b. 1848 d.1848
Maren Lieblein b. 1849 d. 1849
Carl Lieblein b. 1849
Bastiane Hansine Lieblein b. 1853 d.1867
Johan Hofgaard Lieblein b. 1855
Theodor Magnus Lieblein b. 1857
Jens Ludvig Carolus Lieblein b. 1859 d. 1927
Hans Julius Lieblein b. 1861
NN
Eva Andrea Johanne Lieblein b. 1866
Peter Gotfried Lieblein b. 1868
NN

This is a lot of children over a 25-year period!

In the 1865 census Peter Gottfried and Ingeborg Maria had the following children at home in Slagtergaden, Grønlands Menighet, Christiania:
Petrine Franciska
Marie
Christiane Jensine Caroline
Carl Benedicht
Bastiane Hansine
Johan Hofgaard
Theodor Magnus
Jens Ludvig Carolus
Hans Julius
Adah Eleonore

It appears that Oluf Andreas Soren Martinius Lieblein who would be about 19 years old in 1865 had left home or is dead.

I am not convinced that the location is correct for the FamilySeach record stating that Peter Gottfried Lieblein and Ingeborg Marie Fredriksen’s son Carl Benedict Lieblein born 24 Oct. 1850 at Mosvigen, Trondheim. It must be very unlikely that they had a child born in Trondheim when all the others where born in Christiania. I would trust the 1865 census more than the FamilySearch data.

In the 1875 census Peter Gottfried and Ingeborg Marie lived in Thorvald Meyersgate 55, Christiania and had the following children living at home:
Pethrine Fransiska b. 1843
Marie b. 1843
Johan Hofgaard b. 1855
Theodor Magnus b. 1857
Jens Ludvig Carolus b.1859
Hans Julius b. 1861
Adah Elenore b.1863
Eva Andrea Johanne b. 1866
Peter Gottfried b. 1868

In the 1900 census Peter Gotfred was a widower and had moved to Waldemar Thranes gate 34, Christiania and the following children stayed with him:
Petrine Fransiska b. 1843
Marie b. 1843
Peter Gottfried b. 1868, and his two children

Based on all this it is a fair chance that your Charles Lieblein is the same person referred to as Carl Benedicht Lieblein in the 1865 census. Maybe there is someone out there that would be able to confirm when he was born. The alternative dates for born found in FamilySearch are:
19 Oct. 1849, Christiania
24 Oct. 1850, Mosvigen, Trondheim

Suggest you wait contacting a professional researcher, as we should be able to achieve a lot by using this Slektsforum. As soon as you are confident that we have found the link back to Norway you can post a query in the forum that covers the relevant geographical area "Slektsforum Forum Index -> Queries -> Oslo -> Oslo, Kristiania og Aker fra 1814" here at Slektsforum.


Regards
Vidar

[gj09303]

Hi

I found this old query when I was reasearching something else.

Carl Benedict was born Des. 24, 1850 and baptized Aug ?, 1851 in Mosvik in Ytterøy, Nord Trøndelag county.
No 20: http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read?i ... x_side=-40

He became a sailor Jan 16, 1868.
No 1418: http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:NBN:no-a1 ... 620558.jpg

Vivi

[gj00360]

Greetings Vivi,

Thanks for this reply with the 2 links - other parts of my MURCH family have been keeping me extremely busy over the last 3 years and as a consequence, I haven't visited the forum for a while and have obviously missed this

As a non-Norwegian speaker, I would really appreciate a translation of the entries for Carl Benedicht LIEBLEIN and also a translation of the columns in the registers as well. I have downloaded the images and have a question related to the second column of his seaman's entry. What does the 1881 refer to (I guess that will become obvious if you or someone could translate the entry).

I will visit more frequently

Best regards
Peter Williams
Lower Hutt
New Zealand

[gj09303]

Hi

The entries for Carl Benedikt are:
20 - he is the 20'th child baptized this year
24 Decb. 1850 - date of birth. I read it as Decb (December), but it also looks a little like Oct.
7 August - date of baptizm
Carl Benedikt - his given name
ægte - means he was born in wedlock
? Peter Gottfried Lieblein og hustrue Fredrikke Lieblein - the child's parents. I'm not able to read the occupation of Peter. "og hustrue" means and wife. Her given name is here listed as Fredrikke which most likely is a mistake because of her maiden-name Frederiksdatter.
On the right page you have his godparents.

When Carl's father dies he leaves 9 children behind, but unfortunately we are not told where they live. Peter's probate no 643 right page:
Permanent sidelenke: http://arkivverket.no/URN:sk_read/27301/128/
Permanent bildelenke: http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:NBN:no-a1 ... 340128.jpg

The family seems to have moved a bit around.

Vivi

[gj09303]

Hi

The two first children of Peter Gottfried I have found was born at Rikshospitalet (a hospital).
It was the twins Petrine Franciska and Marie. They were born Sept 17 and baptized Sept 25, 1843 before their parents were married. Mother's name is listed as Louise Marie Fredriksdatter.

No 58 and 59 right page:
Permanent sidelenke: http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read?i ... x_side=-60
Permanent bildelenke: http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:NBN:no-a1 ... 050060.jpg

From the "Baptizm book" no 109 and 110 right page:
Permanent sidelenke: http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read?i ... x_side=-33
Permanent bildelenke: http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:NBN:no-a1 ... 050933.jpg

There is a lot written here, but I'm not able to read the handwriting. Sorry.

A sister, Bastiane Hansine was born Jan 17, 1853 while the family lived in Sætre in Hurum:
http://digitalarkivet.no/cgi-win/webcen ... &merk=8328

And a brother, Johan Hoffgaard was also born Nov 11, 1855 in Sætre:
http://digitalarkivet.no/cgi-win/webcen ... 12797#ovre

Vivi

[gj09303]

Hi

Peter Gottfried was married Jan 20, 1844 in Oslo Domkirke to Ingeborg Marie Fredriksdatter.

No 9:
Permanent sidelenke: http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read?i ... _side=-361
Permanent bildelenke: http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:NBN:no-a1 ... 040538.jpg

Vivi

[gj09303]

Hi

I guess this is the confirmation of this being the correct family.
When the mother, Ingeborg Marie Lieblein died April 4, 1893 we are told that she leaves 12 children behind! 9 of the children live in Oslo, 2 live in Drammen (where I live) and the third lives in New Zealand, Wellington.

No 761 (bottom of the left page)
Permanent sidelenke: http://arkivverket.no/URN:sk_read/27263/80/
Permanent bildelenke: http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:NBN:no-a1 ... 380080.jpg

Vivi

[Tove Dahl Johansen]

Vivi refers to the comment on the baptism of the child Marie in 1843.
The comment is something like this:

The child was very weak and was baptized at home right after the birth by the midwife Madame Kristensen in the presence of two men, the first one is Reservelæge Schübeler, (Reservelæge is a doctor). I am a little uncertain about the surname of the other person, his occupation is Kandidat.

There is a Fredrik Christian Schübeler who was Reservelæge at Rikshospitalet between 1841 and 1844 - so that must be the right person.

The child being baptized "at home" was in this case probably not baptized at home, but in the hospital Rikshospitalet.

The home baptism of was confirmed on September 25th

Tove

[gj17048]

Hei!

Just discovered the second marriage of Jens Ludvig Carolus Lieblein when I was researching something else. As there is an entry for the family here on the forum, I thought I just might let you know.

He married for the second time on the 7th of March 1915:

Kildeinformasjon: Buskerud fylke, Bragernes, Ministerialbok nr. III 8 (1909-1921), Ekteviede 1914, side 200.
Permanent sidelenke: http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read?i ... _side=-156


Mvh Bente

[Tove Dahl Johansen]

Theodor Lieblein born 1857 on the 1910 census for Drammen

http://digitalarkivet.arkivverket.no/ft ... 6458020022

And Theodor Lieblein on the 1900 census for Drammen

http://digitalarkivet.arkivverket.no/ft ... 7106014690

Also Jens Ludvig Carolus Lieblein on the 1910 census for Drammen

http://digitalarkivet.arkivverket.no/ft ... 6458010371

In 1900 this family is living in Kristiania (= Oslo)

http://digitalarkivet.arkivverket.no/ft ... 7045040571

Those were the two who lived in Drammen.

Tove DJ

[Tove Dahl Johansen]

Hofgaard has been used as a middle name by some of the Liebleins.
Peter Gottfried Lieblein's mother was born Hofgaard.

From a newspaper announcement at the death of an aunt in1865 I understand Peter Gottfried Lieblein had siblings:

Christian Lieblein - in America
Jens Daniel Carolus Lieblein - he became a professor in egyptology at the University of Christiania = Oslo
Christian Julius Lieblein - Tune, Østfold
Caroline Mathilde Larsen , born Lieblein - Christiania
Anne Mathea Lieblein - Christiania

Tove DJ

[gj00360]

Hello again Vivi,

First up my sincere apologies for such a long time in replying to your series of messages. I was preparing for a bucket list trip when I last replied and my activities since then with multiple other lines has meant I've overlooked returning here. In fact, this visit was prompted by the need to change the email address I have registered here. My Paradise address (of long standing) closed several years ago but the provider promised a permanent forwarding feature to my new address. A new definition of permanent sees that porting ceasing in the next month. However, I don't seem to be able to edit the address in my profile??

So very many thanks for that series of messages. I'm quite relieved that most of the links are still OK and I've got most of the images, thank you. I do have error 404 on the images for Bastiane Hansine and Johan Hoffgaard as the digitalarkivet links don't work. Do I need to subscribe elsewhere or has the site been re-jigged? Also what is the difference between the Permanent sidelenke and Permanent bildelenke images or is the difference merely the reference details?

And you are quite correct - the death register? entry for Ingeborg Marie does confirm for me that my Charles LIBLINE is connected to the LIEBLEIN family - the LIBLINE name is unique in New Zealand.
I shouldn't be picky, given how long ago you posted these. I am, of course, extremely grateful for your help. Trust this finds you well

Peter Williams

[gj00360]

Hello Bente,

Many thanks for posting this and like my reply to Vivi above, I do apologise for the length of time since your post. I've looked at - and downloaded - the image that link leads to but it looks like the wrong page, as your text refers to a March 1915 marriage but the image dates seem to be Nov/Dec (1914?). I got some data from the Ancestral File (looks like in 2004) that showed me with some dates and Jens' two marriages - the first one has a date of 11 May 1889 and says also at Drammen.

Are you able to link both images? But if not many thanks for your post. I will definitely revisit much more frequently from now. Would it be advisable to try a subscription to digitalarkivet if there's an English option. My Norwegian language is negligible

Regards
Peter Williams
Lower Hutt
New Zealand

[gj00360]

Hello Tove,

As with Vivi and Bente, I must sincerely apologise for the long break in transmission. An overload of other information, I'm sorry to say (well, that's not really correct as the information was (and is still) very useful for other lines I research).

Thank you for the translation of the comments about Marie's birth/baptism. Could the word Kandidat possibly be a medical student or just an assistant? And also my thanks for the census pages - they'll be useful.

The use of the name Hofgaard is a useful tool. I have instances in other parts of my families where the mother's (or another female ancestor) maiden surname is used to maintain that name. So very useful for confirming connections. I also have quite a few illegitimate births where the name(s) of the father - who isn't named - are included in the child's name.

So my sincere thanks to you as well for your help

Peter Williams

[gj17048]

Hi again, Peter!

Here is the link to the wedding in March 1915, entry nr 14:
SAKO, Bragernes kirkebøker, F/Fc/L0008: Ministerialbok nr. III 8, 1909-1921, s. 202
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb10040805211158

When it comes to changing the adress of your e-mail, you could try contacting the office of Slekt og data: [email protected]

Regards, Bente

[gj17048]

I do have error 404 on the images for Bastiane Hansine and Johan Hoffgaard as the digitalarkivet links don't work. Do I need to subscribe elsewhere or has the site been re-jigged? Also what is the difference between the Permanent sidelenke and Permanent bildelenke images or is the difference merely the reference details?......

Baptism of Bastiane Hansine:
SAKO, Hurum kirkebøker, F/Fa/L0011: Ministerialbok nr. 11, 1847-1860, s. 71
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20051116020077


Baptism of Johan Hoffgaard:
SAKO, Hurum kirkebøker, F/Fa/L0011: Ministerialbok nr. 11, 1847-1860, s. 112
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20051116020118


The difference between "Permanent sidelenke" and "Permanent bildelenke" is that the "sidelenke" allows you to use the arrows to turn the pages of the book, whereas the "bildelenke" only gives you the exact image and doesn't allow you to turn the pages.

Regards, Bente