Portable PC with no Windows XP

[Denis Beauregard]

I understand this is not the most appropriate newsgroup, but...

I would like to change my portable computer for something new.
My old computer has a defective keyboard so when I go to a
library, I have to bring a standard keyboard. And the HD is
on 1.3 GB. It is running Win 98.

All the portable PCs I have seen brand new are "made for Win XP".
There is a sticker on the PC saying that. But I consider Win XP
is bullshit and I don't want it. I don't want to update it each
week and then find that I got some virus anyway.

So, I would like to find a new portable PC with no OS, to install
on it Linux and VMWare (to run a few applications I have). But
also, I don't want to pay for Win XP and all the major stores here
are forcing me to pay for it. Except one store I know of, and it is
selling the TTX brand (a small Canadian brand, http://www.ttx.ca). The
web site of the store http://www.microbytes.com gives me a rebate of
$142 if Win XP is not installed. But the web site ttx.ca says it is
"designed for Win XP". I wrote to the store about the cheapest model
(genealogy is a hobby for most people, so we buy the cheapest) and
they say it was neither Linux or Windows 98 compatible. But it
seems it is compatible with Win 2k which is the same as Win XP.

Any solution for my problem ? Is anyone using some recent portable
PC with no Win XP ?

VMWare is some kind of Windows interface as I need it to plug my
camera to the PC (it has an automatic shotting mode), for PAF
and for some old DOS text editor. Otherwise, I am using Excel
for my genealogy files, so I will install OpenOffice in the Linux
part of the PC. But is there some recent portable computers with
Linux ? All what I have seen were some models no more sold as new.


Denis

[Robert Melson]

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On Friday 20 August 2004 15:14, Denis Beauregard wrote:

<snip>

All the portable PCs I have seen brand new are "made for Win XP".
There is a sticker on the PC saying that. But I consider Win XP
is bullshit and I don't want it. I don't want to update it each
week and then find that I got some virus anyway.

So, I would like to find a new portable PC with no OS, to install
on it Linux and VMWare (to run a few applications I have). But
also, I don't want to pay for Win XP and all the major stores here

Unfortunately, this is the stranglehold that M$ has on the computer
industry. Couple of years ago, when I bought my then new Dell 8400, I
told Dell that they could have my copy of XP and all the other cruft
that came with it. Nope, not possible. It was easy enough to sanitize
the hard-drive, of course, but it infuriates me to this day that my
wishes as a customer could/would not be honored in deference to the
Gates' monopoly.

are forcing me to pay for it. Except one store I know of, and it is
selling the TTX brand (a small Canadian brand, http://www.ttx.ca). The
web site of the store http://www.microbytes.com gives me a rebate of
$142 if Win XP is not installed. But the web site ttx.ca says it is
"designed for Win XP". I wrote to the store about the cheapest model
(genealogy is a hobby for most people, so we buy the cheapest) and
they say it was neither Linux or Windows 98 compatible. But it
seems it is compatible with Win 2k which is the same as Win XP.

Any solution for my problem ? Is anyone using some recent portable
PC with no Win XP ?

I think you'll find too many OEMs are terrified of M$ and the Gates
money machine, with some reason I suspect. Micro$oft has engaged in
monopolistic and anti-competitive business practices for as far back as
I can remember, as way too many small hardware shops have learned the
hard way. Remember when you could order a computer with your choice of
operating system? UNIX, Windows, OS/2? Remember when that became a
fond memory? Micro$oft was squeezing their cojones -- was there and
saw it first hand: if you don't install Windoze, we won't license it
to you and you won't be able to compete with Compaq/Dell/Gateway/???.
Then where'd you be, eh?

So, to answer your question, I don't see a good answer to your question
and would suggest you either go to the low-cost house you mention or
bite the bullet, accept the universal computer virus known as XP and
immediately scrub it off your disk. After that, you can install RedHat
Linux or FreeBSD or something else of your choice.

VMWare is some kind of Windows interface as I need it to plug my
camera to the PC (it has an automatic shotting mode), for PAF
and for some old DOS text editor. Otherwise, I am using Excel
for my genealogy files, so I will install OpenOffice in the Linux
part of the PC. But is there some recent portable computers with
Linux ? All what I have seen were some models no more sold as new.

VMWare is good stuff, but costs. Less expensive options might include

Cygwin and Wine. I know very little about Cygwin, but friends tell me
it works quite well. Wine is still -- after how many years? -- in late
beta, but does a pretty good job all the same

Denis

Hope this lengthy and obviously biased reply comes close to answering
your questions. If I can provide additional information, drop me an
email at the earthlink address so cleverly obscured below.

Bob Melson

- --
Robert G. Melson Nothing is more terrible than
Rio Grande MicroSolutions ignorance in action.
El Paso, Texas Goethe
melsonr(at)earthlink(dot)net
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[Robert Heiling]

Denis Beauregard wrote:

snipping

I would like to change my portable computer for something new.
My old computer has a defective keyboard so when I go to a
library, I have to bring a standard keyboard. And the HD is
on 1.3 GB. It is running Win 98.

All the portable PCs I have seen brand new are "made for Win XP".
There is a sticker on the PC saying that.

The
web site of the store http://www.microbytes.com gives me a rebate of
$142 if Win XP is not installed. But the web site ttx.ca says it is
"designed for Win XP". I wrote to the store about the cheapest model
(genealogy is a hobby for most people, so we buy the cheapest) and
they say it was neither Linux or Windows 98 compatible. But it
seems it is compatible with Win 2k which is the same as Win XP.

Any solution for my problem ? Is anyone using some recent portable
PC with no Win XP ?

I think you'll find that the problem is one of having the right device
drivers. What they're telling you in effect is that there is no hardware
support in Win98 or Linux. Hardware support requires someone to write
the device driver plus the cooperation of the hardware manufacturer.

I'm afraid that if you bought a new "XP" laptop and installed Linux on it
that it would run poorly or not at all.

Bob

[Robert Heiling]

Robert Heiling wrote:

Denis Beauregard wrote:

snipping

I would like to change my portable computer for something new.
My old computer has a defective keyboard so when I go to a
library, I have to bring a standard keyboard. And the HD is
on 1.3 GB. It is running Win 98.

All the portable PCs I have seen brand new are "made for Win XP".
There is a sticker on the PC saying that.

The
web site of the store http://www.microbytes.com gives me a rebate of
$142 if Win XP is not installed. But the web site ttx.ca says it is
"designed for Win XP". I wrote to the store about the cheapest model
(genealogy is a hobby for most people, so we buy the cheapest) and
they say it was neither Linux or Windows 98 compatible. But it
seems it is compatible with Win 2k which is the same as Win XP.

Any solution for my problem ? Is anyone using some recent portable
PC with no Win XP ?

I think you'll find that the problem is one of having the right device
drivers. What they're telling you in effect is that there is no hardware
support in Win98 or Linux. Hardware support requires someone to write
the device driver plus the cooperation of the hardware manufacturer.

I'm afraid that if you bought a new "XP" laptop and installed Linux on it
that it would run poorly or not at all.

On the other hand, there are companies that specialize in overcoming that
problem. Here's one, if it's in your price category:
http://www.linuxcertified.com/linux-laptop-lc2410.html

You can find more with Google and the right keywords.

HTH
Bob

[Robert M. Riches Jr.]

On 2004-08-20, Denis Beauregard <[email protected]> wrote:

I understand this is not the most appropriate newsgroup, but...

I would like to change my portable computer for something new.
...

All the portable PCs I have seen brand new are "made for Win XP".
There is a sticker on the PC saying that. But I consider Win XP
is bullshit and I don't want it. I don't want to update it each
week and then find that I got some virus anyway.

So, I would like to find a new portable PC with no OS, to install
on it Linux and VMWare (to run a few applications I have). ...

IIRC, HP just announced a week or two ago they are selling a
laptop with Linux preinstalled, all the driver and related
issued solved.

There are companies selling Linux laptops. The Linux
Journal magazine has ads from some of them.

Searching groups.google.com, advanced search, *linux*
newsgroups, should find info on whether specific laptops
run Linux well.

A friend of mine manages a group of rather advanced software
developers, and they have been running Linux on their
laptops for years.

Good luck.

Robert Riches
[email protected]
(Yes, that is one of my email addresses.)

[Robert Melson]

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On Friday 20 August 2004 17:55, Robert M. Riches Jr. wrote:

On 2004-08-20, Denis Beauregard <[email protected]> wrote:
I understand this is not the most appropriate newsgroup, but...

I would like to change my portable computer for something new.
...

snip

IIRC, HP just announced a week or two ago they are selling a
laptop with Linux preinstalled, all the driver and related
issued solved.

There are companies selling Linux laptops. The Linux
Journal magazine has ads from some of them.

snip

Best way to be sure is to do two things: (1) look at the supported
hardware list of the operating system you're interested in and (2)
compare it with the installed and available hardware list for the
laptop you're looking at. Much as it galls me to say it, it seems to
me that Linux has excellent support for leading/bleeding-edge hardware
"out of the box" and is probably a better bet than my favorite,
FreeBSD.

http://www.freebsd.org/
http://www.redhat.com/

- --
Robert G. Melson Nothing is more terrible than
Rio Grande MicroSolutions ignorance in action.
El Paso, Texas Goethe
melsonr(at)earthlink(dot)net
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[CM Research Services]

Once upon a time, Denis Beauregard <[email protected]> wrote

Any solution for my problem ? Is anyone using some recent portable
PC with no Win XP ?

You could check out the second-hand portable PC market - the commercial
resellers who buy out ex-corporate machines, wipe the hard-drives and
sell them on with nothing but "press F1 for BIOS" as a manual.

Most laptop manufacturers have websites that download all the necessary
drivers, and you can supply your own OS.

And yes, I've done that...
--
Andrew Brydon
CM Research Services
Opinions expressed ARE those of this facility... 'till I'm fired!

[Jim Winfrey]

Denis Beauregard <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

All the portable PCs I have seen brand new are "made for Win XP".
There is a sticker on the PC saying that. But I consider Win XP
is bullshit and I don't want it. I don't want to update it each
week and then find that I got some virus anyway.

So, I would like to find a new portable PC with no OS, to install
on it Linux and VMWare (to run a few applications I have). But
also, I don't want to pay for Win XP and all the major stores here
are forcing me to pay for it. Except one store I know of, and it is
selling the TTX brand (a small Canadian brand, http://www.ttx.ca). The
web site of the store http://www.microbytes.com gives me a rebate of
$142 if Win XP is not installed. But the web site ttx.ca says it is
"designed for Win XP". I wrote to the store about the cheapest model
(genealogy is a hobby for most people, so we buy the cheapest) and
they say it was neither Linux or Windows 98 compatible. But it
seems it is compatible with Win 2k which is the same as Win XP.

I think more and more we're all going to run into this problem. I
"solved" it by buying an e-Machines laptop and partioning most of the
hard drive for Linux. There is an advantage to this method since
Linux will read the peripherals from the windows side and install them
with Linux drivers. There will be glitches but it does work pretty
well. I considered VMWare but decided to spend my time learning to
configure Wine for those Windows apps I can't find a linux equivalent
for (yet). Since this is a geneaolgy board, a lot of folks have found
that Rootsmagic ports pretty well to Linux running under Wine

Jim

[Ron Parsons]

In article <[email protected]>,
Denis Beauregard <[email protected]> wrote:

I understand this is not the most appropriate newsgroup, but...

I would like to change my portable computer for something new.
My old computer has a defective keyboard so when I go to a
library, I have to bring a standard keyboard. And the HD is
on 1.3 GB. It is running Win 98.

All the portable PCs I have seen brand new are "made for Win XP".
There is a sticker on the PC saying that. But I consider Win XP
is bullshit and I don't want it. I don't want to update it each
week and then find that I got some virus anyway.

So, I would like to find a new portable PC with no OS, to install
on it Linux and VMWare (to run a few applications I have). But
also, I don't want to pay for Win XP and all the major stores here
are forcing me to pay for it. Except one store I know of, and it is
selling the TTX brand (a small Canadian brand, http://www.ttx.ca). The
web site of the store http://www.microbytes.com gives me a rebate of
$142 if Win XP is not installed. But the web site ttx.ca says it is
"designed for Win XP". I wrote to the store about the cheapest model
(genealogy is a hobby for most people, so we buy the cheapest) and
they say it was neither Linux or Windows 98 compatible. But it
seems it is compatible with Win 2k which is the same as Win XP.

Any solution for my problem ? Is anyone using some recent portable
PC with no Win XP ?

VMWare is some kind of Windows interface as I need it to plug my
camera to the PC (it has an automatic shotting mode), for PAF
and for some old DOS text editor. Otherwise, I am using Excel
for my genealogy files, so I will install OpenOffice in the Linux
part of the PC. But is there some recent portable computers with
Linux ? All what I have seen were some models no more sold as new.

Your most obvious solution is a Macintosh iBook or PowerBook. Just
export your data as a gedcom and then import it into Reunion for
Macintosh.

--
Ron Parsons

[Dave Hinz]

On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 22:57:47 GMT, Robert Heiling <[email protected]> wrote:

Denis Beauregard wrote:

The
web site of the store http://www.microbytes.com gives me a rebate of
$142 if Win XP is not installed. But the web site ttx.ca says it is
"designed for Win XP".
Any solution for my problem ? Is anyone using some recent portable
PC with no Win XP ?

I think you'll find that the problem is one of having the right device
drivers. What they're telling you in effect is that there is no hardware
support in Win98 or Linux.

3 years ago I might have agreed with you here, Bob, but much has changed
since then. One good way to try out device support for a laptop is to
go to knoppix.org and download the CD image of their "Knoppix Linux Live".
You put it into the cd drive on whatever computer you want, it boots
into linux from the CD, configuring everything as you go, and _leaves
the Windows system completely intact_. Load it up, see how it autodiscovers
the hardware. Check video, sound, mouse, etc, and you'll see how good
the Linux support for that specific machine is. I've done this on a half
a dozen systems so far (including an IBM and a Dell laptop) and everything
has worked; network, mouse, printers, everything.

Hardware support requires someone to write
the device driver plus the cooperation of the hardware manufacturer.

It's been done.

I'm afraid that if you bought a new "XP" laptop and installed Linux on it
that it would run poorly or not at all.

I disagree completely, from direct personal experience.

Dave Hinz

[Dave Hinz]

On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 15:12:28 GMT, Ron Parsons <[email protected]> wrote:

Your most obvious solution is a Macintosh iBook or PowerBook. Just
export your data as a gedcom and then import it into Reunion for
Macintosh.

Good point. My next laptop will undoubtedly be a Mac. Reunion is a good
enough reason to switch from Windows to Mac anyways, even without all of
the other reasons.

[Robert Heiling]

Dave Hinz wrote:

On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 22:57:47 GMT, Robert Heiling <[email protected]> wrote:
snipping

I think you'll find that the problem is one of having the right device
drivers. What they're telling you in effect is that there is no hardware
support in Win98 or Linux.

3 years ago I might have agreed with you here, Bob, but much has changed
since then.

What you're looking at is my attempt to come up with some sort of explanation as
to why he is being told that the machine will only run with XP(&NT2K?) and not
Win98 or Linux. That was written after spending some time researching the topic.

One good way to try out device support for a laptop is to
go to knoppix.org and download the CD image of their "Knoppix Linux Live".
You put it into the cd drive on whatever computer you want, it boots
into linux from the CD, configuring everything as you go, and _leaves
the Windows system completely intact_. Load it up, see how it autodiscovers
the hardware. Check video, sound, mouse, etc, and you'll see how good
the Linux support for that specific machine is. I've done this on a half
a dozen systems so far (including an IBM and a Dell laptop) and everything
has worked; network, mouse, printers, everything.

I guess that seeing is believing, but it must depend upon the Linux release then.
I'll give Knoppix a test drive.

Hardware support requires someone to write
the device driver plus the cooperation of the hardware manufacturer.

It's been done.

For every device that ever been built?

I'm afraid that if you bought a new "XP" laptop and installed Linux on it
that it would run poorly or not at all.

I disagree completely, from direct personal experience.

My own direct personal experience is not that extensive, but includes the
following. When moving to the system that I'm on now a couple of years ago, I
purchased a Tekram SCSI card to support a couple of devices I have. In more
recent times, I made a full installation of Redhat 9. Just as you describe above,
the Redhat install process auto-detected my hardware. However, there was no
support for my Tekram SCSI card and I had to go to the manufacturer's website,
download the Linux support software, create a driver disk, and build the support
into my Linux installation.

I'll try Knoppix and see if it does better.

Bob

[Dave Hinz]

On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 16:02:57 GMT, Robert Heiling <[email protected]> wrote:

Dave Hinz wrote:

3 years ago I might have agreed with you here, Bob, but much has changed
since then.

What you're looking at is my attempt to come up with some sort of explanation as
to why he is being told that the machine will only run with XP(&NT2K?) and not
Win98 or Linux. That was written after spending some time researching the topic.

I suggest marketing and predatory business practices by Microsoft are
the reason, rather than any technical issues.

One good way to try out device support for a laptop is to
go to knoppix.org and download the CD image of their "Knoppix Linux Live".

I guess that seeing is believing, but it must depend upon the Linux release then.
I'll give Knoppix a test drive.

I haven't found a system it doesn't work on yet.

Hardware support requires someone to write
the device driver plus the cooperation of the hardware manufacturer.

It's been done.

For every device that ever been built?

Of course not. Hence the easy method of testing above. Hell, you can't
get half the network cards built today to work with win98. Ask me how
I know that.

I'll try Knoppix and see if it does better.

You might find something it won't work with, but I haven't yet.

Dave

[Robert Heiling]

Dave Hinz wrote:

On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 16:02:57 GMT, Robert Heiling <[email protected]> wrote:
Dave Hinz wrote:

3 years ago I might have agreed with you here, Bob, but much has changed
since then.

What you're looking at is my attempt to come up with some sort of explanation as
to why he is being told that the machine will only run with XP(&NT2K?) and not
Win98 or Linux. That was written after spending some time researching the topic.

I suggest marketing and predatory business practices by Microsoft are
the reason, rather than any technical issues.

It's hard to make an argument like that hold water. So, the laptop manufacturer, the
wholesaler, and the dealer all lose out on a sale because Microsoft is going to ? (what
is it that they do?).

and then, there is the dealer who will sell him the laptop without XP and give him a
rebate. How does that fit into that picture?<g>

One good way to try out device support for a laptop is to
go to knoppix.org and download the CD image of their "Knoppix Linux Live".

I guess that seeing is believing, but it must depend upon the Linux release then.
I'll give Knoppix a test drive.

I haven't found a system it doesn't work on yet.

Hardware support requires someone to write
the device driver plus the cooperation of the hardware manufacturer.

It's been done.

For every device that ever been built?

Of course not. Hence the easy method of testing above. Hell, you can't
get half the network cards built today to work with win98. Ask me how
I know that.

I can't get half a network card to work with any OS either.<vbg>

I'll try Knoppix and see if it does better.

You might find something it won't work with, but I haven't yet.

No hedging now!

Bob

[f/f george]

On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 19:21:28 GMT, Robert Heiling <[email protected]>
wrote:

I'll try Knoppix and see if it does better.

You might find something it won't work with, but I haven't yet.

No hedging now!

Hey I downloaded and put Knoppix on my AMD64 3200+ and it ran like a

scared rabbit. The problem was it didn't recognize my WMP11 Linksys
wireless network card AND it wouldn't recognize the one built in to
the motherboard. Nice easy to use program but useless to me without
supporting the cards I have. I was going to replace some Windows
machines with it since they are becoming a pain with the new MS
updates. I still have some doing minor tasks continuiously and running
Win98SE, so since Wine is installed I was going to run Knoppix, and
when the power goes down they are right back up where they were
before.

[Dave Hinz]

On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 19:21:28 GMT, Robert Heiling <[email protected]> wrote:

Dave Hinz wrote:

I suggest marketing and predatory business practices by Microsoft are
the reason, rather than any technical issues.

It's hard to make an argument like that hold water. So, the laptop manufacturer, the
wholesaler, and the dealer all lose out on a sale because Microsoft is going to ? (what
is it that they do?).

In the past, it was "If you don't sell a Windows license with every
PC, we won't let you buy _any_ Windows licenses from us". Pretty sure the
DOJ took exception to that.

and then, there is the dealer who will sell him the laptop without XP and give him a
rebate. How does that fit into that picture?<g

Well, the dealer who is willing to do that is either big enough to push
back, or specialized enough that they don't care.

Of course not. Hence the easy method of testing above. Hell, you can't
get half the network cards built today to work with win98. Ask me how
I know that.

I can't get half a network card to work with any OS either.<vbg

"half of" but of course you knew that.

I'll try Knoppix and see if it does better.

You might find something it won't work with, but I haven't yet.

No hedging now!

Nope, no hedging at all. I have had exactly zero device problems
with Linux in the last year or two, and Knoppix is a good way to evaluate
that for any particular hardware configuration. Absolutely.

[Dave Hinz]

On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 19:44:21 GMT, f/f george <[email protected]> wrote:

Hey I downloaded and put Knoppix on my AMD64 3200+ and it ran like a
scared rabbit. The problem was it didn't recognize my WMP11 Linksys
wireless network card AND it wouldn't recognize the one built in to
the motherboard.

Did you check Linksys's site at all? I have external Linksys devices
so I haven't done the internal thing. Any luck googling for linux wmp11
driver? I see a couple very promising looking hits at the first
page of google results. Worth a look...

Dave

[Robert Heiling]

Dave Hinz wrote:

On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 19:44:21 GMT, f/f george <[email protected]> wrote:

Hey I downloaded and put Knoppix on my AMD64 3200+ and it ran like a
scared rabbit. The problem was it didn't recognize my WMP11 Linksys
wireless network card AND it wouldn't recognize the one built in to
the motherboard.

Did you check Linksys's site at all? I have external Linksys devices
so I haven't done the internal thing. Any luck googling for linux wmp11
driver? I see a couple very promising looking hits at the first
page of google results. Worth a look...

There are 2 considerations here and one is your insistence that Knoppix could
handle any h/w. The age of his machine comes into play here and, if it is not
a new off the shelf machine, then it is an even more serious problem in
regards to generalized Linux support of h/w..

The other is in regard to him having some support under Knoppix. He may very
well be able to find some drivers, but doesn't Knoppix present its own
challenges above & beyond a standard Linux. From my brief read, there was a
lot of compression going on to create that disk & would he be able to create a
new disk with the added support?

Bob

[f/f george]

On 23 Aug 2004 19:56:51 GMT, Dave Hinz <[email protected]> wrote:

On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 19:44:21 GMT, f/f george <[email protected]> wrote:

Hey I downloaded and put Knoppix on my AMD64 3200+ and it ran like a
scared rabbit. The problem was it didn't recognize my WMP11 Linksys
wireless network card AND it wouldn't recognize the one built in to
the motherboard.

Did you check Linksys's site at all? I have external Linksys devices
so I haven't done the internal thing. Any luck googling for linux wmp11
driver? I see a couple very promising looking hits at the first
page of google results. Worth a look...

Dave


No I did not, I was hoping that I could make it work with the included

drivers. I will try on the "other" machine in a couple of day, it has
a generic pci nic. I do also have some real generic isa and pci cards
for a version of linux I was using once for Seti. It was floppy based
and could not use drivers, no room.

[Denis Beauregard]

On 23 Aug 2004 19:54:22 GMT, Dave Hinz <[email protected]> wrote in
soc.genealogy.computing:

On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 19:21:28 GMT, Robert Heiling <[email protected]> wrote:
Dave Hinz wrote:

I suggest marketing and predatory business practices by Microsoft are
the reason, rather than any technical issues.

It's hard to make an argument like that hold water. So, the laptop manufacturer, the
wholesaler, and the dealer all lose out on a sale because Microsoft is going to ? (what
is it that they do?).

In the past, it was "If you don't sell a Windows license with every
PC, we won't let you buy _any_ Windows licenses from us". Pretty sure the
DOJ took exception to that.

It seems they have replaced that by:
1- providing all drivers to be sure the hardware makers won't support
any competition, and they can do this by providing irrelevant doc
2- forcing them to put the sticker "designed for Windows XP"

and then, there is the dealer who will sell him the laptop without XP and give him a
rebate. How does that fit into that picture?<g

Well, the dealer who is willing to do that is either big enough to push
back, or specialized enough that they don't care.

perhaps because it is not American ?

Of course not. Hence the easy method of testing above. Hell, you can't
get half the network cards built today to work with win98. Ask me how
I know that.

I can't get half a network card to work with any OS either.<vbg

"half of" but of course you knew that.

I'll try Knoppix and see if it does better.

You might find something it won't work with, but I haven't yet.

No hedging now!

Nope, no hedging at all. I have had exactly zero device problems
with Linux in the last year or two, and Knoppix is a good way to evaluate
that for any particular hardware configuration. Absolutely.

I will bring Knoppix with me when I will go to the store.


Denis

[Dave Hinz]

On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 20:23:04 GMT, Robert Heiling <[email protected]> wrote:

Dave Hinz wrote:

Did you check Linksys's site at all? I have external Linksys devices
so I haven't done the internal thing. Any luck googling for linux wmp11
driver? I see a couple very promising looking hits at the first
page of google results. Worth a look...

There are 2 considerations here and one is your insistence that Knoppix could
handle any h/w.

Bob, I never said that and you know it. Why the word-games?

The age of his machine comes into play here and, if it is not
a new off the shelf machine, then it is an even more serious problem in
regards to generalized Linux support of h/w..

Hence my suggestion of a valid way to check with the exact hardware in
question, yes.

The other is in regard to him having some support under Knoppix. He may very
well be able to find some drivers, but doesn't Knoppix present its own
challenges above & beyond a standard Linux. From my brief read, there was a
lot of compression going on to create that disk & would he be able to create a
new disk with the added support?

You don't have to _stay_ with Knoppix, but if a driver works in a Knoppix
environment, that same driver will also work in another Linux environment.
Not alot of stores will let you waltz in with a Fedora Core 2 stack of
CDs to install on a box before you buy it (although they should), but
there's no reasonable reason to say "no" to a "let me boot from this
CD while leaving your installation, such as it is, fully intact".

Try it and see what happens. If it works, you're golden. If it
doesn't work, then you have some homework to do. Or not.

[Robert Heiling]

Dave Hinz wrote:

On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 20:23:04 GMT, Robert Heiling <[email protected]> wrote:
Dave Hinz wrote:

Did you check Linksys's site at all? I have external Linksys devices
so I haven't done the internal thing. Any luck googling for linux wmp11
driver? I see a couple very promising looking hits at the first
page of google results. Worth a look...

There are 2 considerations here and one is your insistence that Knoppix could
handle any h/w.

Bob, I never said that and you know it. Why the word-games?

Not exactly that way in those precise words and I apologize if you were offended.

The age of his machine comes into play here and, if it is not
a new off the shelf machine, then it is an even more serious problem in
regards to generalized Linux support of h/w..

Hence my suggestion of a valid way to check with the exact hardware in
question, yes.

The other is in regard to him having some support under Knoppix. He may very
well be able to find some drivers, but doesn't Knoppix present its own
challenges above & beyond a standard Linux. From my brief read, there was a
lot of compression going on to create that disk & would he be able to create a
new disk with the added support?

You don't have to _stay_ with Knoppix, but if a driver works in a Knoppix
environment, that same driver will also work in another Linux environment.

That's fine, but can I assume then that there isn't a way to update one's own
Knoppix with a driver for h/w that Knoppix doesn't support natively?

Not alot of stores will let you waltz in with a Fedora Core 2 stack of
CDs to install on a box before you buy it (although they should), but
there's no reasonable reason to say "no" to a "let me boot from this
CD while leaving your installation, such as it is, fully intact".

I wouldn't be so sure about that. How can anyone know positively that software
booted from a CD wouldn't alter data on the HD? It's running a different OS and
doesn't have the protections that are built into the XP OS.

I see that Denis is a step ahead of us and will be giving that a try. That's what I
would do myself.

Try it and see what happens. If it works, you're golden. If it
doesn't work, then you have some homework to do. Or not.

For myself, I have full driver support as it is, but was curious about Knoppix.
However, this download will take an eternity (and I have broadband cable) so I think
I will abort it.

It will be interesting to hear how Denis's tests work out!

Bob

[Dave Hinz]

On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 22:10:10 GMT, Robert Heiling <[email protected]> wrote:

Dave Hinz wrote:

On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 20:23:04 GMT, Robert Heiling <[email protected]> wrote:

There are 2 considerations here and one is your insistence that Knoppix could
handle any h/w.

Bob, I never said that and you know it. Why the word-games?

Not exactly that way in those precise words and I apologize if you were offended.

"I have never found a piece of hardware that Knoppix didn't handle" is distinctly
different from "Every piece of hardware in existance will work with it", and
I really can't see how one could be mistaken from the other.

You don't have to _stay_ with Knoppix, but if a driver works in a Knoppix
environment, that same driver will also work in another Linux environment.

That's fine, but can I assume then that there isn't a way to update one's own
Knoppix with a driver for h/w that Knoppix doesn't support natively?

Sure, install it rather than run from the CD, and then it's like any other
distro.

Not alot of stores will let you waltz in with a Fedora Core 2 stack of
CDs to install on a box before you buy it (although they should), but
there's no reasonable reason to say "no" to a "let me boot from this
CD while leaving your installation, such as it is, fully intact".

I wouldn't be so sure about that. How can anyone know positively that software
booted from a CD wouldn't alter data on the HD? It's running a different OS and
doesn't have the protections that are built into the XP OS.

Knoppix will only use what XP has designated as swap space on the drive for it's
disk-based data. As in "Hi there, I see you have a 1 Gigabyte swap partition
in this XP configuration, do you mind if I use it for a bit?". Goes away at reboot
of course, because that's what that part of the drive is for.

Try it and see what happens. If it works, you're golden. If it
doesn't work, then you have some homework to do. Or not.

For myself, I have full driver support as it is, but was curious about Knoppix.
However, this download will take an eternity (and I have broadband cable) so I think
I will abort it.

I can mail you my (one rev out) CD if you want it, it's just gathering dust
otherwise. Drop me an email with your snail-mail address if you want it.

Dave

[Robert Heiling]

Dave Hinz wrote:

On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 22:10:10 GMT, Robert Heiling <[email protected]> wrote:
Dave Hinz wrote:

On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 20:23:04 GMT, Robert Heiling <[email protected]> wrote:

There are 2 considerations here and one is your insistence that Knoppix could
handle any h/w.

Bob, I never said that and you know it. Why the word-games?

Not exactly that way in those precise words and I apologize if you were offended.

"I have never found a piece of hardware that Knoppix didn't handle" is distinctly
different from "Every piece of hardware in existance will work with it", and
I really can't see how one could be mistaken from the other.

Ok Ok! I said I was sorry and there's no point in arguing. I'd only ask you to reread
your previous posts and consider the sum total of what you have said in that regard to
understand why I put it that way. However, you are the only one who knows authoratively
what your own position is and I accept that and apologize for what was an erroneous
statement.

You don't have to _stay_ with Knoppix, but if a driver works in a Knoppix
environment, that same driver will also work in another Linux environment.

That's fine, but can I assume then that there isn't a way to update one's own
Knoppix with a driver for h/w that Knoppix doesn't support natively?

Sure, install it rather than run from the CD, and then it's like any other
distro.

But that's not a run-from-CD version which is what I had in mind.

Not alot of stores will let you waltz in with a Fedora Core 2 stack of
CDs to install on a box before you buy it (although they should), but
there's no reasonable reason to say "no" to a "let me boot from this
CD while leaving your installation, such as it is, fully intact".

I wouldn't be so sure about that. How can anyone know positively that software
booted from a CD wouldn't alter data on the HD? It's running a different OS and
doesn't have the protections that are built into the XP OS.

Knoppix will only use what XP has designated as swap space on the drive for it's
disk-based data. As in "Hi there, I see you have a 1 Gigabyte swap partition
in this XP configuration, do you mind if I use it for a bit?". Goes away at reboot
of course, because that's what that part of the drive is for.

You know that and I know that, but! Imagine for a moment that I walk up to you & your
computer holding a CD. I ask you if I can boot your computer with my CD and tell you that
it will not harm anything on your HD and will only use the swap space. Do I get to boot
my CD?<vbg>

Try it and see what happens. If it works, you're golden. If it
doesn't work, then you have some homework to do. Or not.

For myself, I have full driver support as it is, but was curious about Knoppix.
However, this download will take an eternity (and I have broadband cable) so I think
I will abort it.

I can mail you my (one rev out) CD if you want it, it's just gathering dust
otherwise. Drop me an email with your snail-mail address if you want it.

Thanks for the offer! I found another mirror last night that ran at a reasonable speed (
the previous 2 made a tortoise look speedy) and got v3.4 downloaded and deferred the
burning until this morning. Now both Adaptec & Nero tell be that my .iso file is too
large. I've been trying to get to the Knoppix website to check & compare some filesizes,
but they have been down so far.

Bob

[Denis Beauregard]

On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 17:09:27 GMT, Robert Heiling <[email protected]>
wrote in soc.genealogy.computing:

You know that and I know that, but! Imagine for a moment that I walk up to you & your
computer holding a CD. I ask you if I can boot your computer with my CD and tell you that
it will not harm anything on your HD and will only use the swap space. Do I get to boot
my CD?<vbg

**in a store**. I wouldn't let someone I don't know installing
something on my computer, but if I want to sell a computer and I
have no critical data on it (i.e. don't touch my PC with genealogical
data), I will let the possible purchaser try to see if his/her
software is working.

Thanks for the offer! I found another mirror last night that ran at a reasonable speed (
the previous 2 made a tortoise look speedy) and got v3.4 downloaded and deferred the
burning until this morning. Now both Adaptec & Nero tell be that my .iso file is too
large. I've been trying to get to the Knoppix website to check & compare some filesizes,
but they have been down so far.

Maybe you need the 80 minutes/700 Meg CD ?

Personnally, I copied the 3.3 version. The .iso (don't rename it to
..cif as EZCD won't like it) size is 733 902 848, so more than 700 Meg,
but it fits on a 700 Meg disk, so I presume the format must recognized
or the 700 Meg CD has 1k = 1024 bytes.


Denis

[Dave Hinz]

On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 17:09:27 GMT, Robert Heiling <[email protected]> wrote:

Dave Hinz wrote:

Knoppix will only use what XP has designated as swap space on the drive for it's
disk-based data.

You know that and I know that, but! Imagine for a moment that I walk up to you & your
computer holding a CD. I ask you if I can boot your computer with my CD and tell you that
it will not harm anything on your HD and will only use the swap space. Do I get to boot
my CD?<vbg

"because if you don't want me to, that's fine and I'll go down the road to the next
computer store and spend my money there". Now, I don't know how stores are around you,
but trying to get someone to come over to you at a store is hard enough that the
chance of them stopping you trying it is pretty slim in the first place.

I can mail you my (one rev out) CD if you want it, it's just gathering dust
otherwise. Drop me an email with your snail-mail address if you want it.

Thanks for the offer! I found another mirror last night that ran at a reasonable speed (
the previous 2 made a tortoise look speedy) and got v3.4 downloaded and deferred the
burning until this morning. Now both Adaptec & Nero tell be that my .iso file is too
large.

That's strange. How big is it, how much free space do you have to spool it?

I've been trying to get to the Knoppix website to check & compare some filesizes,
but they have been down so far.

Google has a cached version of the page you want if you google for
knoppix iso mirror

Dave

[Robert Heiling]

Denis Beauregard wrote:

On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 17:09:27 GMT, Robert Heiling <[email protected]
wrote in soc.genealogy.computing:

You know that and I know that, but! Imagine for a moment that I walk up to you & your
computer holding a CD. I ask you if I can boot your computer with my CD and tell you that
it will not harm anything on your HD and will only use the swap space. Do I get to boot
my CD?<vbg

**in a store**. I wouldn't let someone I don't know installing
something on my computer, but if I want to sell a computer and I
have no critical data on it (i.e. don't touch my PC with genealogical
data), I will let the possible purchaser try to see if his/her
software is working.

*You* would, but the salesperson may not due to inflexible thinking, store "policy", etc. It's
hard to predict what sort of mentality you will encounter, but I guess you'll find out. We
know, of course, that the worst that can happen is that the OS needs to be reloaded, but there
are better ways to spend one's time than doing that too.

Thanks for the offer! I found another mirror last night that ran at a reasonable speed (
the previous 2 made a tortoise look speedy) and got v3.4 downloaded and deferred the
burning until this morning. Now both Adaptec & Nero tell be that my .iso file is too
large. I've been trying to get to the Knoppix website to check & compare some filesizes,
but they have been down so far.

Maybe you need the 80 minutes/700 Meg CD ?

Yes, that's it, of course! (silently bashing himself on head with stapler<g>). The stack I have
sitting here are 74 min, 650MB! and the file is 706MB. I simply wasn't paying attention, but
what gets me is that Adaptec told me there wasn't enough room when I clicked on the file and
before ever seeing a blank CD. Nero waited until after I inserted the CD and that makes
sense.

Personnally, I copied the 3.3 version. The .iso (don't rename it to
.cif as EZCD won't like it) size is 733 902 848, so more than 700 Meg,
but it fits on a 700 Meg disk, so I presume the format must recognized
or the 700 Meg CD has 1k = 1024 bytes.

Yes, must be.

Bob

[Robert Heiling]

Denis Beauregard wrote:

Maybe you need the 80 minutes/700 Meg CD ?

Personnally, I copied the 3.3 version. The .iso (don't rename it to
.cif as EZCD won't like it) size is 733 902 848, so more than 700 Meg,
but it fits on a 700 Meg disk, so I presume the format must recognized
or the 700 Meg CD has 1k = 1024 bytes.

Since I already had the downloaded v3.4 with good md5sum, I called my wife and had her pick up
some of the larger capacity CD-R on her way home. That was indeed the problem and Nero burned
me a Knoppix CD in short order.

The testing results are less than satisfactory though it terms of being automatic. I would want
it to alert me that it has found h/w, has tested it, and cannot setup drivers for that
particular h/w. There were no such messages during boot & automatic testing.

However, there was unrecognized h/w, the same Tekram SCSI card that RH9 couldn't handle
natively. There are 2 SCSI devices: a Umax scanner and a Syquest removable cartridge HD which
should show up as sda1, it does not.

That means that to properly test Linux (Knoppix) on any given laptop, you will need to know the
h/w and bring up a proper program for each piece of h/w to determine if that h/w is functioning
or not. It's not automated during boot as I had visualized & expected.

Bob

[Dave Hinz]

On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 15:00:23 GMT, Robert Heiling <[email protected]> wrote:

However, there was unrecognized h/w, the same Tekram SCSI card that RH9 couldn't handle
natively. There are 2 SCSI devices: a Umax scanner and a Syquest removable cartridge HD which
should show up as sda1, it does not.

I've never had a laptop with SCSI interfaces, it's good to know that
that apparently doesn't have as good of support as other types.

[James Garcia]

On the other hand, there are companies that specialize in overcoming that
problem. Here's one, if it's in your price category:
http://www.linuxcertified.com/linux-laptop-lc2410.html

Actually I have a LinuxCertified laptop (LC2430). I have to say that I
have been very pleased with it. My department has recently started using
laptops from them for all our Linux desktops.

[Peter J. Seymour]

Robert Melson wrote:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Friday 20 August 2004 15:14, Denis Beauregard wrote:

snip
operating system? UNIX, Windows, OS/2? Remember when that became a
fond memory?
snip
Just as a point of interest, OS/2 is not yet entirely dead. There is

still a lot of OS/2 usage (as distinct from on-going sales). As an
example, I still use OS/2 for most things, although I admit to
occasionally using one or other variety of Windows and sometimes Linux.
Regards
Peter