Doubts about Richard Bellingham's royal line

[John Brandon]

Back in 2004, I posted the following:

G.B.R., in _RD 600_, p. 316, shows a line of descent from Edward I
down to

11. Sir William Ayscough = Elizabeth Wrottesley

12. Jane Ayscough = Richard Disney

13. Susan Disney = Alexander Amcotts

14. Frances Amcotts = William Bellingham

15. Richard Bellingham (c. 1592-1672), colonial governor of Mass.

John Hutchins, _History and Antiquities of the County of Dorset_ (ed.
Shipp and Hodson), 2:99, is a pedigree chart of Disney (De Isney,
Deisney) showing that Alexander Amcotts married Sarah (? sic) Disney,
a daughter of Richard Disney, "of Norton Deisney, esq. high sheriff of
the county of Lincoln 4 and 5 Philip and Mary, 1557, and 8 Eliz. 1566;
burgess in parliament for Grantham 1 and 2 Philip and Mary, 1554; died
Dec. 30, 20 Eliz. 1578 (as by inquisition after death); bur. at Norton
Deisney, where his monument, with the effigy of himself, two wives,
seven sons, and five daughters yet remains." The mother of Susan /
Sarah who married Amcotts is shown as his first wife, "Margaret (?
sic), dau. and coh. of sir William Hussey, knt. eldest son and heir
apparent of John lord Hussey." The second wife was indeed "Jane,
dau.of sir William Ascough, of South Kelsey, relict of sir George St.
Paul, of Snarford, both in the co. of Lincoln, knts.; bur. at Norton
Deisney."

Bindoff, _House of Commons, 1509-1558_, 2:49 (bio. of Richard Disney,
M.P.), shows basically the same wives: Neile, daughter of Sir William
Hussey; and Jane, daughter of Sir William Askew, widow of George St.
Poll (d. 1558/59). It specifically states that Jane d.s.p. (at least
by Richard Disney). The sketch of George St. Poll (Bindoff, 3:260)
agrees that St. Poll died in 1558/9.

Even if it were possible that Sarah (or Susan) Disney (the wife of
Alexander Amcotts) was a daughter by Richard Disney's second wife
(Jane [Ayscough] St. Poll), chronology would seem to prohibit her
having a grandson born in 1592. Allowing twenty years per generation,
Sarah / Susan Disney would need to have been born by 1552, at which
time Jane Ayscough was still married to her first husband.

13. Susan Disney (b. 1552 ?) = Alexander Amcotts

14. Frances Amcotts (b. 1572 ?) = William Bellingham

15. Richard Bellingham (c. 1592-1672)

So it seems clear that Richard Bellingham's grandmother was a daughter
of Neile (? or Margaret) Hussey. I imagine there would be some royal
lines in *her* ancestry, as she was a granddaughter of Lord Hussey,
and her mother a daughter of Sir Robert Lovell.


* * * * *

Perhaps the chronology was not quite as tight as I had thought, since
it would be *barely* possible if both Susan Disney and Frances Amcotts
were 16 or 17 at the birth of their child. However, it is troubling
that the HOP biography of Richard Disney specifically states that wife
Jane died without issue. I've recently discovered there is a reason
for this ...

http://books.google.com/books?id=fBktAA ... #PPA316,M1

i.e., Disney's brass shows his second wife "Jaune (Ayscoughe) with no
children."

I suppose I should write to Gary about this, now that the most recent
volume of _Great Migration_ confirms that the wife of New England
immigrant Philemon1 Pormort was a sister of Richard Bellingham (and
hence her descendants would have this supposed royal descent).

[Nathaniel Taylor]

In article
<c3381e9c-b687-40ba-8660-f55b2a059356@v46g2000hsv.googlegroups.com>,
John Brandon <[email protected]> wrote:

* * * * *

Perhaps the chronology was not quite as tight as I had thought, since
it would be *barely* possible if both Susan Disney and Frances Amcotts
were 16 or 17 at the birth of their child. However, it is troubling
that the HOP biography of Richard Disney specifically states that wife
Jane died without issue. I've recently discovered there is a reason
for this ...

http://books.google.com/books?id=fBktAA ... +disney%22
+hussey&lr=#PPA316,M1

i.e., Disney's brass shows his second wife "Jaune (Ayscoughe) with no
children."

I suppose I should write to Gary about this, now that the most recent
volume of _Great Migration_ confirms that the wife of New England
immigrant Philemon1 Pormort was a sister of Richard Bellingham (and
hence her descendants would have this supposed royal descent).

The evidence of the brass is important--I think probative here. Surely
posters can come up with some interesting Hussey ancestry for this other
wife? Genealogics doesn't give enough to go on.

Nat Taylor
a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://www.nltaylor.net/sketchbook/

[John Brandon]

The evidence of the brass is important--I think probative here. Surely
posters can come up with some interesting Hussey ancestry for this other
wife? Genealogics doesn't give enough to go on.

Using the three links below, we get back to "Thomas Conyers, Esq.,
who, through the ancient family of the Fitzralphs, was one of the
representatives of the noble house of Mortimer."

http://books.google.com/books?id=aPcMAA ... hussey&lr=

http://books.google.com/books?id=dlUBAA ... #PPA434,M1

http://books.google.com/books?id=xjcGAA ... #PPA202,M1

There was also a descent from Blount of Mangotsfield (does that ring
any bells for anybody?).

Nat, you can mention this change to Gary if you like ... or
Douglas ... (anything to avoid writing it up) ...

[John Brandon]

http://books.google.com/books?id=uA4NAA ... ubeney&lr=

[John Brandon]

There was also a descent from Blount of Mangotsfield (does that ring
any bells for anybody?).

Through the Blounts there was a descent from Daubeny and Seymour ...

http://books.google.com/books?id=hqwKAA ... #PPA153,M1

[John Brandon]

I suppose I should write to Gary about this, now that the most
recent
volume of _Great Migration_ confirms that the wife of New England
immigrant Philemon1 Pormort was a sister of Richard Bellingham (and
hence her descendants would have this supposed royal descent).

Oops ... presumably Susanna (Bellingham) Pormort was a half-sister of
Richard, and was missing the Amcotts line. See the following vital
records, all from the extracted IGI:

Alford, co. Lincoln
--Willimus. Bellingham to Anna Willech, 3 July 1600
--Susanna Bellingham, dau. of William, bapt. 1 Sept. 1601
--Philemon Pormort to Susanna Billingham, 11 Oct. 1627

Would Susanna and her mother have been any relation of Balthasar
Willix of New England who was also from Alford in Lincolnshire?

http://books.google.com/books?id=vsIMAA ... lr=&pgis=1

[John Brandon]

William Bellingham was a witness to this Willix will from 1598 ...

http://books.google.com/books?id=dtBPAA ... alford&lr=

[John Brandon]

Possibly the Eure line behind Bellingham would lead to something
interesting ...

http://books.google.com/books?id=RNlIAA ... illiam+b...

http://books.google.com/books?id=aBotAA ... xholme&lr=

[John Brandon]

http://books.google.com/books?id=s98HAA ... #PPA324,M1

[John Brandon]

Were these folks ancestral to the Tunstalls from whom the Bellinghams
descended?

http://books.google.com/books?id=wHZcIR ... aa4PnSswHA

[John Brandon]

http://books.google.com/books?id=dQW7JE ... _lqbRHH9vQ

[John Brandon]

http://books.google.com/books?id=65srAA ... lr=&pgis=1

[John Brandon]

Would Susanna and her mother have been any relation of Balthasar
Willix of New England who was also from Alford in Lincolnshire?

The _Genealogical Dictionary of Maine and New Hampshire_ clearly
states, under both Pormort and Willix, that Susanna (Bellingham)
Pormort was half-sister of Balthasar Willix. It does not mention any
relationship to the far more prominent Richard Bellingham.

_Great Migration_, on the other hand, calls Susanna a sister of
Richard Bellingham, but does not mention Willix. _Great Migration_
cites a document in which Richard Bellingham paid a one-pound debt
owed by "Mr. Purmen." Philemon Pormort's name is sometimes give as
Purmont (and similar) in New England records, so RCA is probably
correct in thinking this is a connection betweeen P. Pormort and R.
Bellingham.

Philemon Pormort married (2) Elizabeth ---, who was the ancestress of
most of his descendants given in _
Gene. Dictionary of Maine and New Hampshire_. Susanna Bellingham did,
however, have daughters married to Samuel Norden and Nathaniel Adams.
See below for some descendants ...

http://books.google.com/books?id=ecYMAA ... n+mary&lr=

Was Susanna Bellingham a sister, or only a cousin of some sort, of
Richard Bellingham? This conundrum would make for a nice short
article (despite her having few descendants). The article could also
point out the incorrect royal line through Ayscough and Disney, and
perhaps concentrate on establishing the agnate Bellingham line (which
seems more promising to me for a royal descent--note the possible
Marmion-Grey-Fitzhugh line behind Tunstall and Bellingham).

[John Brandon]

Philemon Pormort married (2) Elizabeth ---, who was the ancestress of
most of his descendants given in _
Gene. Dictionary of Maine and New Hampshire_. Susanna Bellingham did,
however, have daughters married to Samuel Norden and Nathaniel Adams.
See below for some descendants ...

http://books.google.com/books?id=ecYMAA ... uel+nord...

The snippet below shows that Samuel Norden married (1) --- (obscured);
and (2) Elizabeth "Pormatt." He had his son Nathaniel Norden by his
first wife ...

http://books.google.com/books?id=X2xIAA ... lr=&pgis=1

Col. Nathaniel Norden's will mentioned Samuel Hooper, "son to my half
sister, daughter of my father by his wife, my mother-in-law":

http://books.google.com/books?id=L_SdyU ... den%22&lr=

This would seem to prove that there were (a few) Pormort-Bellingham
descendants in the Perkins and Hooper families.

[John Brandon]

This early NEHGR article states that William Bellingham, father of
Susanna Pormort, was buried at Alford on 2 Sept. 1606 ...

http://books.google.com/books?id=z77K5h ... 2+1606&lr=

(See also http://books.google.com/books?id=hcyTX5 ... 2+1606&lr=
)

.... while another NEHGR article claims letters of admin. on the estate
of William, father of Richard, were dated 11 July 1620 ...

http://books.google.com/books?id=WitTGc ... ham%22&lr=

[wjhonson]

West Yorkshire Archive Service, Leeds: Ingilby Records [WYL230/2934 -
WYL230/Acc4080]
Ingilby Records
Catalogue Ref. WYL230
Creator(s): Ingilby family, Baronets, of Ripley Castle, Ripley, West
Riding of Yorkshire
AMCOTTS FAMILY RECORDS
DEEDS AND SETTLEMENTS

FILE - Feoffment - ref. WYL230/3623 - date: 10 Feb 1545
[from Scope and Content] From Alexander Amcotts, esq., to John
Richerdson and Robert Atkynson of his part of the manor of Hill Dyke
and lands in Toft (Fishtoft) Boston, Freiston, Skirbeck and Butterwick
next Boston, Lincs., on condition that they make a good and sufficient
estate of this property to him for life and then to Matthew Amcotts,
one of his sons, and his heirs male; with another copy.

FILE - Quitclaim - ref. WYL230/3624 - date: 20 Sep 1549
[from Scope and Content] From Alexander Amcotts of Esthorpe, Lincs.,
to Matthew Amcotts his son of all his part of the manor of Hill Dyke
next Boston, Lincs., and messuages and lands in Boston, Toft,
Frieston, Skirbeck, and Butterwick next Boston.

Will Johnson