A BRIEF Myth and Realty of Michael Flanderais/Le Fleming/de

[Gjest]

Good Morning,
To sperate the myth and the reality of the decent in an abbreviated
form: Many
read of Michael Flanderais who came with William the Conquor in 1066,
kinsman of Baldwin, Count of Flanders, in-law to the conquor and yet
ascribe this as the same Michael who granted a charter in 1153 as the
same, it is not likely and is a myth.
Myth 1: If this were so and considering that Michael was only a boy of
10-15 years of age this would have made this Michael at minimum he
would have 96 to101 not counting if he came over as a full-fledged man
in his 20's.
Fact 1: The first that I have found of this Michael is after the
Domesday survey 1086 when Ernulf held 6 caracutes of land in Aldingham
and it is given to Michael le Fleming, this may be the same Michael
above, son of Michael or a different Michael.(Domesday Survey)(Notitia
Cestriensis)
In or about this time after the Cumbria subjugation of 1072 he
recieves;
Fact 2: Arlecdon,Frizington,Roginton,Weddicar, and other lands.
Myth 2: Michael allegedly recieves this from William de Meschines, but
as he DID hold these lands it was probably from Randolph,Williams
father as William was not born until approx. 1102/3.
Fact 3: The next mention of Micheal le Fleming is in 1127 when ?
Stephen confirms his grant to the Abbot at Furness his lands EXCEPTING
those held by Michael le Fleming.
Fact 4: Then a charter granting land to the church of St. Mary of
Furness where his son Daniel is a clerk before 1153.
Fact 5: 1153 this Michael le Fleming described as extremely old,
granted a 2nd charter to the church of St. Mary at Furness.(Furness
Coucher p. 454)
Confirmed by William Count of Bologne(Pipe Rolls p. 307)
(Furness Coucher p. 454)
Fact 6: The above 1153 charter was sighed by William ,Michaels' son
and heir, Gregory his grandson and Hugh.Obviously Gregory was not
Williams heir as Michael is unless Gregory dies and the next Michael
(Gregorys brother)succeeds Gregory. This will be seen below in a later
confirmation of descent.
Myth 3: as MANY secondary sources have this as the original Michael
who died 1175/77 this is not the original Michael as he would be
now130-40 and the Michael of 1086/1127 would be around 100 years of
age.
Fact 7: William son and heir of Michael confirms what his father had
granted in exchange for Berdsea. Michael, son of William(preceeding)
son of Michael confirmed the same. This Michael is when the family is
called de Furness. It is this Michael that died in 1175/77.
Further confirmation, " I William, son of Michael son of William de
Furness confirm to the abbot of Furness what my grandfather did give,
Crimelton and Ros with the fisheries....)(Antiquities of Furness,
p100) It is this William de Furness/Fleming, reached his majority and
recieved livery of his lands 1186(Pipe Rolls p.60) died before
4/18/1204 (Patent Rolls p.41) that married Alyna dau. of Thomas
fitzCospatric who she married 2nd William Pincerna(LeBoteler) 1215/16.
I have no brith or marriage date of Alyna, but if she were even 15
years of age when she married de Furness and soon after he came of age
she would have approx 45 when she married William Pincerna, if not
older.
I hope you have enjoyed!
Best Regards,
Emmett L. Butler

[Gjest]

On Dec 30, 11:47 am, [email protected] wrote:

Good Morning,
To sperate the myth and the reality of the decent in an abbreviated
form: Many
read of Michael Flanderais who came with William the Conquor in 1066,
kinsman of Baldwin, Count of Flanders, in-law to the conquor and yet
ascribe this as the same Michael who granted a charter in 1153 as the
same, it is not likely and is a myth.
Myth 1: If this were so and considering that Michael was only a boy of
10-15 years of age this would have made this Michael at minimum he
would have 96 to101 not counting if he came over as a full-fledged man
in his 20's.
Fact 1: The first that I have found of this Michael is after the
Domesday survey 1086 when Ernulf held 6 caracutes of land in Aldingham
and it is given to Michael le Fleming, this may be the same Michael
above, son of Michael or a different Michael.(Domesday Survey)(Notitia
Cestriensis)
In or about this time after the Cumbria subjugation of 1072 he
recieves;
Fact 2: Arlecdon,Frizington,Roginton,Weddicar, and other lands.
Myth 2: Michael allegedly recieves this from William de Meschines, but
as he DID hold these lands it was probably from Randolph,Williams
father as William was not born until approx. 1102/3.
Fact 3: The next mention of Micheal le Fleming is in 1127 when ?
Stephen confirms his grant to the Abbot at Furness his lands EXCEPTING
those held by Michael le Fleming.
Fact 4: Then a charter granting land to the church of St. Mary of
Furness where his son Daniel is a clerk before 1153.
Fact 5: 1153 this Michael le Fleming described as extremely old,
granted a 2nd charter to the church of St. Mary at Furness.(Furness
Coucher p. 454)
Confirmed by William Count of Bologne(Pipe Rolls p. 307)
(Furness Coucher p. 454)
Fact 6: The above 1153 charter was sighed by William ,Michaels' son
and heir, Gregory his grandson and Hugh.Obviously Gregory was not
Williams heir as Michael is unless Gregory dies and the next Michael
(Gregorys brother)succeeds Gregory. This will be seen below in a later
confirmation of descent.
Myth 3: as MANY secondary sources have this as the original Michael
who died 1175/77 this is not the original Michael as he would be
now130-40 and the Michael of 1086/1127 would be around 100 years of
age.
Fact 7: William son and heir of Michael confirms what his father had
granted in exchange for Berdsea. Michael, son of William(preceeding)
son of Michael confirmed the same. This Michael is when the family is
called de Furness. It is this Michael that died in 1175/77.
Further confirmation, " I William, son of Michael son of William de
Furness confirm to the abbot of Furness what my grandfather did give,
Crimelton and Ros with the fisheries....)(Antiquities of Furness,
p100) It is this William de Furness/Fleming, reached his majority and
recieved livery of his lands 1186(Pipe Rolls p.60) died before
4/18/1204 (Patent Rolls p.41) that married Alyna dau. of Thomas
fitzCospatric who she married 2nd William Pincerna(LeBoteler) 1215/16.
I have no brith or marriage date of Alyna, but if she were even 15
years of age when she married de Furness and soon after he came of age
she would have approx 45 when she married William Pincerna, if not
older.
I hope you have enjoyed!
Best Regards,
Emmett L. Butler

Dear Emmett

I suggest you go to the following URL and begin on page 67 which will
lay out for you much interesting suggested history of Michael le
Fleming's ancestry.

Also VCH Lancs Vol 8 page 300 &300n (available on British History on
line) says that William, Michael's (1127) son, attested a charter in
about 1157 and succeeded his father before 1186. If true, then
William's birth must be much closer to 1135-40 than is shown at most
sites (abt 1150).

The Early History of the Stricklands of Sizergh - This book is a study
of the Strickland family origins in England. It was written by S. H.
Lee Washington and published in 1942. Thanks to Nancy J. Capps for
making it available online to Strickland researchers.

Pages 1-34
Pages 35-68
Pages 69-100

http://www.rockystrickland.com/strickland.htm

Sincerely yours,

Dix Preston

[Gjest]

On Dec 31, 9:47�am, [email protected] wrote:

On Dec 30, 11:47 am, [email protected] wrote:





Good Morning,
To sperate the myth and the reality of the decent in an abbreviated
form: � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � �Many
read of Michael Flanderais who came with William the Conquor in 1066,
kinsman of Baldwin, Count of Flanders, in-law to the conquor and yet
ascribe this as the same Michael who granted a charter in 1153 as the
same, it is not likely and is a myth.
Myth 1: If this were so and considering that Michael was only a boy of
10-15 years of age this would have made this Michael at minimum he
would have 96 to101 not counting if he came over as a full-fledged man
in his 20's.
Fact 1: The first that I have found of this Michael is after the
Domesday survey 1086 when Ernulf held 6 caracutes of land in Aldingham
and it is given to Michael le Fleming, this may be the same Michael
above, son of Michael or a different Michael.(Domesday Survey)(Notitia
Cestriensis)
In or about this time after the Cumbria subjugation of 1072 he
recieves;
Fact 2: Arlecdon,Frizington,Roginton,Weddicar, and other lands.
Myth 2: Michael allegedly recieves this from William de Meschines, but
as he DID hold these lands it was probably from Randolph,Williams
father as William was not born until approx. 1102/3.
Fact 3: The next mention of Micheal le Fleming is in 1127 when ?
Stephen confirms his grant to the Abbot at Furness his lands EXCEPTING
those held by Michael le Fleming.
Fact 4: Then a charter granting land to the church of St. Mary of
Furness where his son Daniel is a clerk before 1153.
Fact 5: 1153 this Michael le Fleming described as extremely old,
granted a 2nd charter to the church of St. Mary at Furness.(Furness
Coucher p. 454)
Confirmed by William Count of Bologne(Pipe Rolls p. 307)
(Furness Coucher p. 454)
Fact 6: The above 1153 charter was sighed by William ,Michaels' son
and heir, Gregory his grandson and Hugh.Obviously Gregory was not
Williams heir as Michael is unless Gregory dies and the next Michael
(Gregorys brother)succeeds Gregory. This will be seen below in a later
confirmation of descent.
Myth 3: as MANY secondary sources have this as the original Michael
who died 1175/77 this is not the original Michael as he would be
now130-40 and the Michael of 1086/1127 would be around 100 years of
age.
Fact 7: William son and heir of Michael confirms what his father had
granted in exchange for Berdsea. Michael, son of William(preceeding)
son of Michael confirmed the same. This Michael is when the family is
called de Furness. It is this Michael that died in 1175/77.
Further confirmation, " I William, son of Michael son of William de
Furness confirm to the abbot of Furness what my grandfather did give,
Crimelton and Ros with the fisheries....)(Antiquities of Furness,
p100) It is this William de Furness/Fleming, reached his majority and
recieved livery of his lands 1186(Pipe Rolls p.60) died before
4/18/1204 (Patent Rolls p.41) that married Alyna dau. of Thomas
fitzCospatric who she married 2nd William Pincerna(LeBoteler) 1215/16.
I have no �brith or marriage date of Alyna, but if she were even 15
years of age when she married de Furness and soon after he came of age
she would have approx 45 when she married William Pincerna, if not
older.
I hope you have enjoyed!
Best Regards,
Emmett L. Butler

Dear Emmett

I suggest you go to the following URL and begin on page 67 which will
lay out for you much interesting suggested history of Michael le
Fleming's ancestry.

Also VCH Lancs Vol 8 page 300 &300n (available on British History on
line) says that William, Michael's (1127) son, attested a charter in
about 1157 and succeeded his father before 1186. If true, then
William's birth must be much closer to 1135-40 than is shown at most
sites (abt 1150).

The Early History of the Stricklands of Sizergh - This book is a study
of the Strickland family origins in England. It was written by S. H.
Lee Washington and published in 1942. Thanks to Nancy J. Capps for
making it available online to Strickland researchers.

� � �Pages 1-34
� � �Pages 35-68
� � �Pages 69-100

http://www.rockystrickland.com/strickland.htm

Sincerely yours,

Dix Preston- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Good Evening Dix and All,
Unfortunately, only some of the data to the URL that you gave me will
come up. I have Adobe 8.0 and beyond so should more than handle it but
not all the sites come up yet alone starting at page 67.(not at all)
Regarding the VCL Lancs online, I have been informed and am in
"General" agreement that it is a secondary source, not a primary
source.

You are seeing in general what I am saying, the Michael referred to in
1127, King Stephens charter and later exemplification excepting the
lands of Michael le Fleming in 1127, may or may not be the same
Michael of 1072 or 1086 and is probably the same Michael of the
charter granting lands to St. Marys of Furness in 1153, but definitely
NOT the Michael that died in 1175/77 and more than sure it is not the
Michael alluded to as coming over with William the Conquoror 1066.

Further, you are correct, the William that confirmed the 1153 grant to
St. Marys Church in Furness in abt. 1157 and also was a witness and
listed as son and heir to the said Michael le Fleming to the 1153
grant, is NOT the same William who in 1186 reached "his majority and
received livery of his lands(Pipe Rolls p.60). The 1186 William was
the son and heir of another Michael le Fleming listed in my previous
post as reconofirming the 1153 grant where he states he(William) is
the son of Michael son of William, it is the William of 1186 that
married Alyna de Furness who later married william Pincerna(Le
Boteler).

I know my style of writing can be confusing so I am putting a short
time/name descent together.

'A side bar of interest, a most good friend of mine was married to a
Strickland and her two children go by their fathers name and they are
most appreciative of the website you have provided, I hope they have
better luck than I in getting them to open.
Best Regards,
Emmett L. Butler

[Gjest]

On Dec 31 2007, 7:52 pm, [email protected] wrote:

On Dec 31, 9:47�am, [email protected] wrote:





On Dec 30, 11:47 am, [email protected] wrote:

Good Morning,
To sperate the myth and the reality of the decent in an abbreviated
form: � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � �Many
read of Michael Flanderais who came with William the Conquor in 1066,
kinsman of Baldwin, Count of Flanders, in-law to the conquor and yet
ascribe this as the same Michael who granted a charter in 1153 as the
same, it is not likely and is a myth.
Myth 1: If this were so and considering that Michael was only a boy of
10-15 years of age this would have made this Michael at minimum he
would have 96 to101 not counting if he came over as a full-fledged man
in his 20's.
Fact 1: The first that I have found of this Michael is after the
Domesday survey 1086 when Ernulf held 6 caracutes of land in Aldingham
and it is given to Michael le Fleming, this may be the same Michael
above, son of Michael or a different Michael.(Domesday Survey)(Notitia
Cestriensis)
In or about this time after the Cumbria subjugation of 1072 he
recieves;
Fact 2: Arlecdon,Frizington,Roginton,Weddicar, and other lands.
Myth 2: Michael allegedly recieves this from William de Meschines, but
as he DID hold these lands it was probably from Randolph,Williams
father as William was not born until approx. 1102/3.
Fact 3: The next mention of Micheal le Fleming is in 1127 when ?
Stephen confirms his grant to the Abbot at Furness his lands EXCEPTING
those held by Michael le Fleming.
Fact 4: Then a charter granting land to the church of St. Mary of
Furness where his son Daniel is a clerk before 1153.
Fact 5: 1153 this Michael le Fleming described as extremely old,
granted a 2nd charter to the church of St. Mary at Furness.(Furness
Coucher p. 454)
Confirmed by William Count of Bologne(Pipe Rolls p. 307)
(Furness Coucher p. 454)
Fact 6: The above 1153 charter was sighed by William ,Michaels' son
and heir, Gregory his grandson and Hugh.Obviously Gregory was not
Williams heir as Michael is unless Gregory dies and the next Michael
(Gregorys brother)succeeds Gregory. This will be seen below in a later
confirmation of descent.
Myth 3: as MANY secondary sources have this as the original Michael
who died 1175/77 this is not the original Michael as he would be
now130-40 and the Michael of 1086/1127 would be around 100 years of
age.
Fact 7: William son and heir of Michael confirms what his father had
granted in exchange for Berdsea. Michael, son of William(preceeding)
son of Michael confirmed the same. This Michael is when the family is
called de Furness. It is this Michael that died in 1175/77.
Further confirmation, " I William, son of Michael son of William de
Furness confirm to the abbot of Furness what my grandfather did give,
Crimelton and Ros with the fisheries....)(Antiquities of Furness,
p100) It is this William de Furness/Fleming, reached his majority and
recieved livery of his lands 1186(Pipe Rolls p.60) died before
4/18/1204 (Patent Rolls p.41) that married Alyna dau. of Thomas
fitzCospatric who she married 2nd William Pincerna(LeBoteler) 1215/16.
I have no �brith or marriage date of Alyna, but if she were even 15
years of age when she married de Furness and soon after he came of age
she would have approx 45 when she married William Pincerna, if not
older.
I hope you have enjoyed!
Best Regards,
Emmett L. Butler

Dear Emmett

I suggest you go to the following URL and begin on page 67 which will
lay out for you much interesting suggested history of Michael le
Fleming's ancestry.

Also VCH Lancs Vol 8 page 300 &300n (available on British History on
line) says that William, Michael's (1127) son, attested a charter in
about 1157 and succeeded his father before 1186. If true, then
William's birth must be much closer to 1135-40 than is shown at most
sites (abt 1150).

The Early History of the Stricklands of Sizergh - This book is a study
of the Strickland family origins in England. It was written by S. H.
Lee Washington and published in 1942. Thanks to Nancy J. Capps for
making it available online to Strickland researchers.

� � �Pages 1-34
� � �Pages 35-68
� � �Pages 69-100

http://www.rockystrickland.com/strickland.htm

Sincerely yours,

Dix Preston- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Good Evening Dix and All,
Unfortunately, only some of the data to the URL that you gave me will
come up. I have Adobe 8.0 and beyond so should more than handle it but
not all the sites come  up yet alone starting at page 67.(not at all)
Regarding the VCL Lancs online, I have been informed and am in
"General" agreement that it is a secondary source, not a primary
source.

You are seeing in general what I am saying, the Michael referred to in
1127, King Stephens charter and later exemplification  excepting the
lands of Michael le Fleming in 1127, may or may not be the same
Michael of 1072 or 1086 and is probably the same Michael of the
charter granting lands to St. Marys of Furness in 1153, but definitely
NOT the Michael that died in 1175/77 and more than sure it is not the
Michael alluded to as coming over with William the Conquoror 1066.

Further, you are correct, the William that confirmed the 1153 grant to
St. Marys Church in Furness in abt. 1157 and also was a witness and
listed as son and heir to the said Michael le Fleming to the 1153
grant, is NOT the same William who in 1186 reached "his majority and
received livery of his lands(Pipe Rolls p.60). The 1186 William was
the son and heir of another Michael le Fleming listed in my previous
post as reconofirming the 1153 grant where he states he(William) is
the son of Michael son of William, it is the William of 1186 that
married Alyna de Furness who later married william Pincerna(Le
Boteler).

I know my style of writing can be confusing so I am putting a short
time/name descent together.

'A side bar of interest, a most good friend of mine was married to a
Strickland and her two children go by their fathers name and they are
most appreciative of the website you have provided, I hope they have
better luck than I in getting them to open.
Best Regards,
Emmett L. Butler- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Good Morning Will Johnson, Dix et al,
Below is an abbreviated form of how I see things based on charters and
pipe rolls, etc. feel free to comment or add.

Michael I same as Michael Flandernais
Michael II
Michael III
William I
William II

1066 William the Conquoror comes
(MICHAEL I)-alledged kinsman of Baldwin, Count of Flanders, in-law to
the Conquoror

1072 Subjugation of Cumbria

1072 Held Arlecdon,Frizington,Rogington,Wedicar and other lands
(MICHAEL I) or (MICHAEL II)

1086 6 caracutes in Aldingham by Ernulf afterwards of Michael
Flandernais
(Domesday survey 1086)- (Notitia Centriensis)
(MICHAEL I) or (MICHAEL II)

1127 Confirmation of the grant to Furness Abbey by King Stephen
"except the lands held by Michael le Fleming"
(Antiquities of the Furness Charters)
MICHAEL II

Abt 1152 "Grant to St Mary of Furness, grant of land where Daniel the
clerk my son"
(Antiquities of the Furness Charters)
MICHAEL II

1153 Grant to St. Mary of Furness"with the consent of William my son
and heir and all my children. Witnesses, Micheal Le Fleming, William
his son, Gregory his grandson and Hugh" Micheal le Fleming is desribed
as extremely old in this charter.
(Furness Coucher, p. 455) Confirmed by William Count of Bologne(Pipe
Roll p. 307) (Furness Coucher p. 454)
MICHAEL II

1157 Confirmation of the 1153 charter, "I William, son and heir of
Micheal confirm what his father did give...."
(Antiquities of the Furness Charters)
WILLIAM I

After 1157- before 1175 I, Michael son of William son of Michael
confirm the same....)
(Antiquities of the Furness Charters)
MICHAEL III

1175/77 Michael III dies after Michaelmas William II is in wardship of
the King.
(Quare Volumnus)
MICHAEL III

1186 William II is at his majority and receives livery of his lands
(Pipe Rolls p. 60)
William II

After 1186 before 1204 William confirms the 1157 confirmation of the
1153 charter " I, William son of Michael son of William de Furness
confirm to the abbot of Furness what my grandfather did give Crimelton
and Ros with the fisheries....."
(Antiquities of the Furness Charter, p. 100)
WILLIAM II

After 1186 before 1204 William II marries Alyna daughter of Thomas
fitzCospatric
WILLIAM II

1203 William II is dead. before 4/18/1204 William II dies.
(Pipe Rolls p. 41)
WILLIAM II

1203/4 Henry fitzHervius has wardship of William II's son Michael le
Fleming IV
(Lanes Pipe Rolls 180) (Furness Coucher, pp. 464-465)
MICHAEL IV

1204 Alyna de Furness pays 50 marks and 2 palfreys for license to
marry whom she will and for dower and a share of her late husbands
chattels...)
(Pipe Rolls p. 180)
Wife of WILLIAM II mother of MICHAEL IV

1213/15 William Pincerna(Le Boteler) petitions the king to marry
Alyna de Furness
(Pipe Rolls p.232)

I hope this makes things abit more clear, there are many other
charters, grants, fines, etc. but this is the abbeviated form. Please
feel free to add and comment.
Best Regards.
Emmett L. Butler

[Gjest]

On Jan 1, 8:50 am, [email protected] wrote:

On Dec 31 2007, 7:52 pm, [email protected] wrote:





On Dec 31, 9:47�am, [email protected] wrote:

On Dec 30, 11:47 am, [email protected] wrote:

Good Morning,
To sperate the myth and the reality of the decent in an abbreviated
form: � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � �Many
read of Michael Flanderais who came with William the Conquor in 1066,
kinsman of Baldwin, Count of Flanders, in-law to the conquor and yet
ascribe this as the same Michael who granted a charter in 1153 as the
same, it is not likely and is a myth.
Myth 1: If this were so and considering that Michael was only a boy of
10-15 years of age this would have made this Michael at minimum he
would have 96 to101 not counting if he came over as a full-fledged man
in his 20's.
Fact 1: The first that I have found of this Michael is after the
Domesday survey 1086 when Ernulf held 6 caracutes of land in Aldingham
and it is given to Michael le Fleming, this may be the same Michael
above, son of Michael or a different Michael.(Domesday Survey)(Notitia
Cestriensis)
In or about this time after the Cumbria subjugation of 1072 he
recieves;
Fact 2: Arlecdon,Frizington,Roginton,Weddicar, and other lands.
Myth 2: Michael allegedly recieves this from William de Meschines, but
as he DID hold these lands it was probably from Randolph,Williams
father as William was not born until approx. 1102/3.
Fact 3: The next mention of Micheal le Fleming is in 1127 when ?
Stephen confirms his grant to the Abbot at Furness his lands EXCEPTING
those held by Michael le Fleming.
Fact 4: Then a charter granting land to the church of St. Mary of
Furness where his son Daniel is a clerk before 1153.
Fact 5: 1153 this Michael le Fleming described as extremely old,
granted a 2nd charter to the church of St. Mary at Furness.(Furness
Coucher p. 454)
Confirmed by William Count of Bologne(Pipe Rolls p. 307)
(Furness Coucher p. 454)
Fact 6: The above 1153 charter was sighed by William ,Michaels' son
and heir, Gregory his grandson and Hugh.Obviously Gregory was not
Williams heir as Michael is unless Gregory dies and the next Michael
(Gregorys brother)succeeds Gregory. This will be seen below in a later
confirmation of descent.
Myth 3: as MANY secondary sources have this as the original Michael
who died 1175/77 this is not the original Michael as he would be
now130-40 and the Michael of 1086/1127 would be around 100 years of
age.
Fact 7: William son and heir of Michael confirms what his father had
granted in exchange for Berdsea. Michael, son of William(preceeding)
son of Michael confirmed the same. This Michael is when the family is
called de Furness. It is this Michael that died in 1175/77.
Further confirmation, " I William, son of Michael son of William de
Furness confirm to the abbot of Furness what my grandfather did give,
Crimelton and Ros with the fisheries....)(Antiquities of Furness,
p100) It is this William de Furness/Fleming, reached his majority and
recieved livery of his lands 1186(Pipe Rolls p.60) died before
4/18/1204 (Patent Rolls p.41) that married Alyna dau. of Thomas
fitzCospatric who she married 2nd William Pincerna(LeBoteler) 1215/16.
I have no �brith or marriage date of Alyna, but if she were even 15
years of age when she married de Furness and soon after he came of age
she would have approx 45 when she married William Pincerna, if not
older.
I hope you have enjoyed!
Best Regards,
Emmett L. Butler

Dear Emmett

I suggest you go to the following URL and begin on page 67 which will
lay out for you much interesting suggested history of Michael le
Fleming's ancestry.

Also VCH Lancs Vol 8 page 300 &300n (available on British History on
line) says that William, Michael's (1127) son, attested a charter in
about 1157 and succeeded his father before 1186. If true, then
William's birth must be much closer to 1135-40 than is shown at most
sites (abt 1150).

The Early History of the Stricklands of Sizergh - This book is a study
of the Strickland family origins in England. It was written by S. H.
Lee Washington and published in 1942. Thanks to Nancy J. Capps for
making it available online to Strickland researchers.

� � �Pages 1-34
� � �Pages 35-68
� � �Pages 69-100

http://www.rockystrickland.com/strickland.htm

Sincerely yours,

Dix Preston- Hide quoted text -

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Good Evening Dix and All,
Unfortunately, only some of the data to the URL that you gave me will
come up. I have Adobe 8.0 and beyond so should more than handle it but
not all the sites come  up yet alone starting at page 67.(not at all)
Regarding the VCL Lancs online, I have been informed and am in
"General" agreement that it is a secondary source, not a primary
source.

You are seeing in general what I am saying, the Michael referred to in
1127, King Stephens charter and later exemplification  excepting the
lands of Michael le Fleming in 1127, may or may not be the same
Michael of 1072 or 1086 and is probably the same Michael of the
charter granting lands to St. Marys of Furness in 1153, but definitely
NOT the Michael that died in 1175/77 and more than sure it is not the
Michael alluded to as coming over with William the Conquoror 1066.

Further, you are correct, the William that confirmed the 1153 grant to
St. Marys Church in Furness in abt. 1157 and also was a witness and
listed as son and heir to the said Michael le Fleming to the 1153
grant, is NOT the same William who in 1186 reached "his majority and
received livery of his lands(Pipe Rolls p.60). The 1186 William was
the son and heir of another Michael le Fleming listed in my previous
post as reconofirming the 1153 grant where he states he(William) is
the son of Michael son of William, it is the William of 1186 that
married Alyna de Furness who later married william Pincerna(Le
Boteler).

I know my style of writing can be confusing so I am putting a short
time/name descent together.

'A side bar of interest, a most good friend of mine was married to a
Strickland and her two children go by their fathers name and they are
most appreciative of the website you have provided, I hope they have
better luck than I in getting them to open.
Best Regards,
Emmett L. Butler- Hide quoted text -

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Good Morning Will Johnson, Dix et al,
Below is an abbreviated form of how I see things based on charters and
pipe rolls, etc. feel free to comment or add.

Michael I same as Michael Flandernais
Michael II
Michael III
William I
William II

1066   William the Conquoror comes
(MICHAEL I)-alledged kinsman of Baldwin, Count of Flanders, in-law to
the Conquoror

1072  Subjugation of Cumbria

1072  Held Arlecdon,Frizington,Rogington,Wedicar and other lands
(MICHAEL I) or (MICHAEL II)

1086  6 caracutes in Aldingham by Ernulf afterwards of Michael
Flandernais
(Domesday survey 1086)- (Notitia Centriensis)
(MICHAEL I) or (MICHAEL II)

1127  Confirmation of the grant to Furness Abbey by King Stephen
"except the lands held by Michael le Fleming"
(Antiquities of the Furness Charters)
MICHAEL II

Abt 1152 "Grant to St Mary of Furness, grant of land where Daniel the
clerk my son"
(Antiquities of the Furness Charters)
MICHAEL II

1153  Grant to St. Mary of Furness"with the consent of William my son
and heir and all my children. Witnesses, Micheal Le Fleming, William
his son, Gregory his grandson and Hugh" Micheal le Fleming is desribed
as extremely old in this charter.
(Furness Coucher, p. 455) Confirmed by William Count of Bologne(Pipe
Roll p. 307) (Furness Coucher p. 454)
MICHAEL II

1157  Confirmation of the 1153 charter, "I William, son and heir of
Micheal confirm what his father did give...."
(Antiquities of the Furness Charters)
WILLIAM I

After 1157- before 1175  I, Michael son of William son of Michael
confirm the same....)
(Antiquities of the Furness Charters)
MICHAEL III

1175/77 Michael III dies after Michaelmas William II is in wardship of
the King.
(Quare Volumnus)
MICHAEL III

1186  William II is at his majority and receives livery of his lands
(Pipe Rolls p. 60)
William II

After 1186 before 1204 William confirms the 1157 confirmation of the
1153 charter " I, William son of Michael son of William de Furness
confirm to the abbot of Furness what my grandfather did give Crimelton
and Ros with the fisheries....."
(Antiquities of the Furness Charter, p. 100)
WILLIAM II

After 1186 before 1204 William II marries Alyna daughter of Thomas
fitzCospatric
WILLIAM II

1203 William II is dead. before 4/18/1204 William II dies.
(Pipe Rolls p. 41)
WILLIAM II

1203/4 Henry fitzHervius has wardship of William II's son Michael le
Fleming IV
(Lanes Pipe Rolls 180) (Furness Coucher, pp. 464-465)
MICHAEL IV

1204 Alyna de Furness pays 50 marks and 2 palfreys for license to
marry whom she will and for dower and a share of her late husbands
chattels...)
(Pipe Rolls p. 180)
Wife of WILLIAM II mother of MICHAEL IV

1213/15  William Pincerna(Le Boteler) petitions the king to marry
Alyna de Furness
(Pipe Rolls p.232)

I hope this makes things abit more clear, there are many other
charters, grants, fines, etc. but this is the abbeviated form.  Please
feel free to add and comment.
Best Regards.
Emmett L. Butler- Hide quoted text -

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Dear Emmett

I hope the following will assist you in your attempt to nail down the
le Fleming line. I have excerpted the page 67 …I referred you to. If
you would like the entire article (there is more le Fleming in it than
I show here) please give me your full aol address & I will send
the .pdf pages for the whole article which you could not extract from
the site I sent you to.

Regards,

Dix Preston

Source: "The Early History of the Stricklands of Sizergh" by S, H. Lee
Washington; 1942; The Rumford Press; Boston, MA

OUOTE page 67
Let us now consider briefly the ancestry of Eleanor Ie Fleming,
Elizabeth d'Eyncourt's grandmother; since not only are there problems
in the Fleming pedigree that still await solution, but it was Eleanor
herself who brought to the d'Eyncourts, and ultimately to the
Stricklands and the Washingtons, descent from the great feudal
families of Stuteville, Greystoke, and Dunbar. The early Fleming
descent has never been cleared up; but Michael le Fleming and Rainer
Ie Fleming were both landowners in Cumberland during the first quarter
of the twelfth century. Rainer, who was the father of sons named
William, Walter, and Hugh, was the original feoffee of Beckermet in
Coupland, co. Cumberland, under William "le Meschin", lord of Coupland
and Skipton, to whom he acted as dapifer and whose foundation charter
of the priory of St. Bees he witnessed in 1120-25 (Wilson, St. Bees
[Surtees Soc.], pp. 28-40, 107). He also appears to have been
enfeoffed of the manor of Wath upon Dearne in Yorkshire, since his
grandson, Rainer II, held two knights' fees of the Honour of Skipton
in that county in 1166. Michael, who was the immediate progenitor of
Anselm (the father of Eleanor Ie Fleming, wife of Ralph d'Eyncourt),
acquired the Cumberland manor of Drigg in Coupland, and was also lord
of Aldingham in Furness, co. Lancs., in the year 1127, having
evidently been enfeoffed of his Lancashire estates by Henry I.94 The
parentage of neither Michael nor Rainer is known, but they were
probably brothers: and I would suggest that they very likely belonged
to the family of le Fleming, barons of Wahull (now Odell) in
Bedfordshire, amongst whom the names Michael, Rainer, Hugh, and Walter
were common at this period. At the date of the compilation of
Doomsday Book in 1086, Walter "Flandrensis" (i.e. le Fleming) was one
of the principal tenants-in-chief in co. Bedford, besides holding
estates in Northants.,--his fief in the twelfth century owing the
service of no less than thirty knights' fees. His eldest son, Walter
II, was father of Simon Ie Fleming, or de Wahull, who had a son named
Michael (Assize Roll, Bedfordshire, 46 Henry III, m. 4), and whose
heir-general, Sir Richard Chetwode, claimed to be "Lord Wahull" (by
virtue of his possession of the "barony" of Wahull) in 1613. 95 The
first Walter of Wahull likewise appears from Doomsday to have
possessed two younger brothers: (a) Hugh le Fleming, who held in
capite in Podington, Hinwick, and Sharnbrook, co. Bedford, and also
held of Walter of Wahull in Thurleigh, Turvey, Astwick, Henlow, etc.,
96 and (b) Rainer, the holder from Walter of Wahull of half a hide in
Thurleigh and two hides in Milton Ernest. It seems to me highly
possible that the latter was the father of Rainer le Fleming and
Michael Ie Fleming of Aldingham.

The origin of the lords of Wahull has never been ascertained. But
Doomsday shows that Walter "Flandrensis" (of 1086) had succeeded a
certain Saier in the Bedfordshire manor of Southill prior to the date
of the General Survey; and, as this unusual Christian name was
afterwards borne by Walter's great-grand son, Saier de Wahull, there
seems good reason for regarding the original Saier of Southill as
Walter's father. A "Walter brother of Saier" was the Doomsday lord
of Segenhoe, Beds.: and, since Hugh Ie Fleming held of him (in
Silsoe) and Segenhoe itself was later treated as part of the Wahull
barony, "Walter brother of Saier" was evidently Walter of Wahull's
uncle. Now it is a remarkable circumstance that the arms as well as
the Christian names of the early lords of Wahull were identical with
those of the powerful Flemish family of d'Oisy, castellans of
Cambrai, who claimed descent from the ancient Counts of Lens. Not
only do the three crescent arms of Wahull closely resemble the one
crescent coat borne by d'Oisy,97 but Walter, castellan of Cambrai, who
was assassinated in 1041, had a brother named Saier, who aspired
unsuccessfully to the bishopric of Cambrai in 1054. Still more
curious, Hugh I d'Oisy, castellan of Cambrai-who was the grandson and
heir of the Walter of 1041, and whose grandson Simon d'Oisy succeeded
to the chatellenie of Cambrai in 1131-was in his youth under the
guardianship of his kinsman (propinquus) Anselm de Ribemont, Count of
Ostrevant, whose Christian name recalls that of Anselm le Fleming,
the father of Eleanor d'Eyncourt! We may therefore conclude that
Walter, the Doomsday lord of Wahull, was a cadet of this
distinguished house; and most probably his (presumed) father, Saier
of Southill, was a younger brother of Hugh I. d'Oisy, castellan of
Cambrai, and of Walter de Cambrai, castellan of Douai.98

94 In 1127 Stephen of Blois (afterwards King Stephen), lord of the
Honour of Lancaster, specially excepted the lands of Michael Ie
Fleming from his charter of endowment of the abbey of Furnesa.
Michael held a moiety of the original lordship of Furness, comprising
twenty and a half carucates situated in the villa of Aldingham, Leece,
Hart, Gleaston, Dendron, Sunton, Bolton, Stainton in Urswick (which
must be distinguished from Stainton in Kendal), and Fordbottle (Lanes.
Pipe Rolls, ed. Farrer, pp. 302-317; V.C.H. Lanes.. II. pp. 114-120;
ibid.. VIII. pp. 286-301). Michael's moiety, formerly called
Aldingham from its principal seat. became later known as Muchland,
i.e. "Michael's land". For his acquisition of Drigg. see below.

95 Sir Richard's claim was rejected on the grounds that none of his
ancestors were ever summoned as barons by writ. For the later lords
of Wahull, see Victoria County History of Bedfordshire, vol. Ill, pp.
69-73.

96 He was most likely grandfather of the Hugh "de la Leye" (i.e. de
Thurleigh) who held ten fees of the honour of Wahull in 1166, and
whose son Stephen founded the priory of Canons Ashby, Northants.
(.ibid., vol. III. pp. 104-S).

97 I ought to add that the seal of Michael III Ie Fleming of Aldingham
(for whom see p. 72). appended to a charter of 1227. shows the device
of two bars and a canton (cf. Coucher Book of Furness [Chetham Soc.],
vol. II, pt. iii, p. 784). This must have repre sented a variant of
the arms of the de Lancasters, from whom the Flemings of Aldingham
held the manor of Stainton (see also footnotes nos. 3 and 75). The
coat borne by the descendants of Rainer Ie Fleming of Beckermet, and
which is still borne by the Flemings of Rydal, was Gules a fret
silver, and clearly must have had a common origin with that of the
neighbouring Cumberland families of Boyville, Huddleston, Harrington,
and Curwen, all of whom bore the fret with slight changes in the
tinctures.

98 An excellent account of the castellans of Cambrai, from the
Continental point of view, is given by M. Leon Vanderkindere in La
Formation Territoriale des PrincipauUs Beiges au. Moyen Ase. II, pp.
56-59. Walter, castellan of Lens, was made castellan of Cambrai
between 972 and 979, and left two sons, Walter II and Saier, the
latter of whom has already been mentioned as an unsuccessful
candidate for the bishopric of Cambrai. The elder son, Walter II.
was assassinated in 1041; and upon his death his next heir was an
infant grandson Hugh d'Oisy, son of his only daughter, Adela, by her
marriage to Hugh. castellan of Douai. During the latter's minority
the chatfllenie of Cambrai was usurped by John, hereditary Advocate of
Arras, the second husband of Walter II s widow, Ermentrude. But circa
1057 Bishop Liebert of Cambrai restored the heir to his rights and
placed him under the guardianship of his relative, Anselm I de
Ribemont, Count of Ostrevant, who, besides the comte of Ostrevant in
Flanders, possessed the fief of Ribemont in the Vermandois
(Vanderkindere. of. cit; I, pp. 135-137). Hugh d'oisy, who eventually
succeeded as castellan of Cambrai, had a brother Walter (who
inherited the chalellenie of Douai), as well, probably, as another
brother. Saier. the original feoffee of Sou thill and Segenhoe.
Hence, I would further suggest that "Walter brother of Saier" of the
Bedfordshire Doomsday was identical with Walter d Oisy, castellan of
Douai, and that Hugh Ie Fleming, the Doomsday tenant of Poddmgton (who
also held lands in 1086 of the Wahull barony), was identical with
Hugh d Oisy. castellan of Cambrai. Both Hugh and Walter d'Oisy are
known to have been alive in 1086.
UNQUOTE

To aid you in the Descendants of Michael I le Fleming I offer from my
own research and confirmed in the article cited. Also see Weis A.R.
line 34 & line 41 8th edition.

1 Michael I le Fleming (this is the Michael of 1127)
+daughter de Stuteville
2 Michael II le Fleming
+Christina de Stainton
3 Anselm (Sir) le Fleming
+Agnes of Dunbar (Edgar, Gospatric II, Gospatric the Earl 1068-72)
4 Erneburgha le Fleming
+Richard (Sir) de Preston I
5 Richard (Sir) de Preston II
+Amabel de Strickland
4 Eleanor le Fleming
+Ralph I d'Eyncourt
5 Sir Ralph II d'Eyncourt
+Alice de Thursby
6 Gervase d'Eyncourt
6 Richard d'Eyncourt
6 Elizabeth d'Eyncourt
+William (Sir) de Strickland
5 Peter d'Eyncourt
+Avice de Applethwaite
3 William le Fleming
+Alyna of Workington
4 Michael (Sir) le Fleming III
+Agatha FitzRanulph of Ravensworth
5 William le Fleming
6 Aline (Alicia or Eleanor) le Fleming
+Richard (Sir) Cansfield
7 Agnes Cansfield
+Robert (Sir) de Haverington/Harrington

[wjhonson]

I see problems in this last proposed reconstruction, but I need to go
back over the details again after adding a few of these lines I hadn't
had.

I believe that Emmett is on the right trail. I need to review what I
have for Eleanor (Fleming) Cansfield to see if this other view can
fit.

Will Johnson

[Gjest]

Good Evening Will et al,
A continuation of the Line:

Michael, aged 6-1204 under the wardship of Sir Henry fitzHervious,
married to Henrys daughter Agatha.
Michaels' brother Daniel, is given by Sir Henry the churches of
Aldingham, St. Tumbald and (Aiton?)
The Abbot of Furness marries Michaels widow Agatha to Sir Marmaduke de
Arel

Michael le Fleming and Agatha had at least a son Michael and a
daughter Aline

Michael son of Michael and Agatha married an Alina.
Michael died within three years after his majority(I believe)
Letters from the king to the Abbot of Furnes on behalf of Sir Laurence
de Seynt Mor for the marriage of Alina late the wife of Michael de
Furneys. Westminister, 28 April 5 Edward I.

Further:

After whose death(Michael, son of Michael and Agatha) the Lord Abbot
holds the manor of Aldingham as chief lord of the fee to whom belongs
the wardships of the manor as of his fee till the full age of John de
Cancefield who is within age..

John de Cancefield married Aline, Michaels sister and heir, then to
the next family.
(Furness Coucher p. 464-465,82,457,25,129) (Charter Pipe rolls, Vol
I,p.18

I hope this isn't to confusing
Best Regards
Emmett L. Butler

[Gjest]

Good Evening,
A possible error, where the last post shows John de Cancefield as
marrying Aline it may or should be Richard de Cancefield with John as
their son
Most sorry, some of my writing on notes are hurried and are worse than
my typing. : )
Best Regards
Emmett L. Butler