Elizabeth Countess Kinski (or Kinsky)

[wjhonson]

In the Will of William Killigrew, Bart who was buried 17 Jul 1665 s.p.
at Westminster Abbey, he names his niece "Elizabeth Countess Kinski"

Apparently a sister of William Killigrew's married the Count or heir
of the Count Kinski (or Kinsky).

Does someone know more details about this, such as who this unnamed
father was ?

Thanks

Will Johnson

[Gjest]

On Dec 14, 4:45 pm, wjhonson <[email protected]> wrote:

In the Will of William Killigrew, Bart who was buried 17 Jul 1665 s.p.
at Westminster Abbey, he names his niece "Elizabeth Countess Kinski"

Apparently a sister of William Killigrew's married the Count or heir
of the Count Kinski (or Kinsky).

Does someone know more details about this, such as who this unnamed
father was ?

Thanks

Will Johnson

According to euweb, there was a Killigrew ["Kilagrew"]/Kinsky
marriage:

Adolf, son of William, Count Kinsky (1574-1634) cr 1628, married
Elisabeth Kilagrew and had issue; he was said to be still living in
1648.

See here for a pedigree:

http://genealogy.euweb.cz/bohemia/kinski1.html

I have a decent Bohemian peerage work at home, but won't be able to
access it until sometime in the New Year as I am currently travelling
in the Antipodes - not sure whether it will shed more light.

MA-R

[Gjest]

On Dec 14, 4:45 pm, wjhonson <[email protected]> wrote:

In the Will of William Killigrew, Bart who was buried 17 Jul 1665 s.p.
at Westminster Abbey, he names his niece "Elizabeth Countess Kinski"

Apparently a sister of William Killigrew's married the Count or heir
of the Count Kinski (or Kinsky).

Does someone know more details about this, such as who this unnamed
father was ?

Thanks

Will Johnson

Euweb has some details:

http://genealogy.euweb.cz/bohemia/kinski1.html

This shows that Adolf (ff 1648), son of William, Count Kinsky
(1574-1634), cr 1628, married "Elisabeth Kilagrew". This would
suggest that she was the daughter of a brother of Sir William
Killagrew, Bt, rather than of a sister.

I can look this up in the Bohemian version of the Gotha, but won't be
able to until sometime in the New Year as I am currently travelling in
the Antipodes. Of course, I don't know whether it will add anything.

MA-R

(Apologies if this hits twice)

[wjhonson]

On Dec 14, 2:08 am, [email protected] wrote:

Euweb has some details:
http://genealogy.euweb.cz/bohemia/kinski1.html

This shows that Adolf (ff 1648), son of William, Count Kinsky
(1574-1634), cr 1628, married "Elisabeth Kilagrew". This would
suggest that she was the daughter of a brother of Sir William
Killagrew, Bt, rather than of a sister.


MA-R

Thanks for that. William Killgrew Bart was born somewhere between
1594 and 1606, but he was writing his will in the 1660s so I'm
thinking that the niece "Elizabeth Countess Kinski" was possibly even
the daughter of Adolf.

Will Johnson

[[email protected]]

On 15 Pro, 09:05, wjhonson <[email protected]> wrote:

On Dec 14, 2:08 am, [email protected] wrote:



Euweb has some details:
http://genealogy.euweb.cz/bohemia/kinski1.html

This shows that Adolf (ff 1648), son of William, Count Kinsky
(1574-1634), cr 1628, married "Elisabeth Kilagrew". This would
suggest that she was the daughter of a brother of Sir William
Killagrew, Bt, rather than of a sister.

MA-R

Thanks for that. William Killgrew Bart was born somewhere between
1594 and 1606, but he was writing his will in the 1660s so I'm
thinking that the niece "ElizabethCountess Kinski" was possibly even
the daughter of Adolf.

Will Johnson

Does this help?

1. Elizabeth Killegrew, wife of Adolf Arnost Count Kinsky

2. Henry Killegrew
3. Catherine Cadel

4. John Killegrew
5. Dorothy Monke
6. Andrew Cadel
7. Anna de Duwenvorde


8. John Killegrew
9. Mary Wolverston
10. Thomas Monke
11. Elizabeth Poswell
12. John Cadel
13. Mary Semers
14. Thierry de Duuenworde
15. Berta de Roon

This is from an old note of mine, transcribed hastily from old (and
relatively small in its size) ancestral table of Elizabeth's son Vilem
some years ago. This table hung in one of chambers of the Kost Castle
(http://www.kinskycastles.com/castle-kost.htm) and I did not have
enough time, so there may be some spelling mistakes.

Yours,
Pavel

[wjhonson]

Before we get all excited adding this to our databases, we should be
aware that
A) William Killigrew Bart (cr 1660) "sixth son" who is buried d.s.p.
17 Jul 1665 at Westminster Abbey, in HIS will calls the woman "my
niece Countess Kinsky". Niece... not sister. This William was the
son of John Killigrew of Arwennack by his wife Dorothy Monck.
B) Henry Killigrew "third son" "aged 30 in 1620" who is here
proclaimed to be the father of Elizabeth, in fact, is also proclaimed
to have d.s.p.

So this is not a solution, esp. as this family tree is certainly many
centuries after-the-fact and who knows what their sources were.

cf
http://www.uk-genealogy.org.uk/england/ ... index.html
Vis Cornwall, page 269, "Killigrew"


Will Johnson

[[email protected]]

On 21 Pro, 05:48, wjhonson <[email protected]> wrote:

Before we get all excited adding this to our databases, we should be
aware that
A) William Killigrew Bart (cr 1660) "sixth son" who is buried d.s.p.
17 Jul 1665 at Westminster Abbey, in HIS will calls the woman "my
niece Countess Kinsky".  Niece... not sister.  This William was the
son of John Killigrew of Arwennack by his wife Dorothy Monck.

Which would seem to be consistent with Elizabeth's ancestry recorded
at Kost.

B) Henry Killigrew "third son" "aged 30 in 1620" who is here
proclaimed to be the father of Elizabeth, in fact, is also proclaimed
to have d.s.p.

This is of course major problem. I am certainly no expert on English
County Visitations, but if I interpret the pedigree in Visitations of
Cornwall correctly (thanks for the link), the 1620 Visitation found
him alive and kicking, being 30 years old, and the "d.s.p."
information is Mr Vivian's addition. Am I right? Or is it common to
mention already deceased persons in such a manner in Visitations?

So this is not a solution, esp. as this family tree is certainly many
centuries after-the-fact and who knows what their sources were.

I do apologise, but could you enlighten me what particular family tree
have you in mind in this sentence? Thank you.

Yours,
Pavel

[wjhonson]

On Dec 20, 12:19 pm, "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:

On 15 Pro, 09:05, wjhonson <[email protected]> wrote:





On Dec 14, 2:08 am, [email protected] wrote:

Euweb has some details:
http://genealogy.euweb.cz/bohemia/kinski1.html

This shows that Adolf (ff 1648), son of William, Count Kinsky
(1574-1634), cr 1628, married "Elisabeth Kilagrew".  This would
suggest that she was the daughter of a brother of Sir William
Killagrew, Bt, rather than of a sister.

MA-R

Thanks for that.  William Killgrew Bart was born somewhere between
1594 and 1606, but he was writing his will in the 1660s so I'm
thinking that the niece "ElizabethCountessKinski" was possibly even
the daughter of Adolf.

Will Johnson

Does this help?

1. Elizabeth Killegrew, wife of Adolf Arnost Count Kinsky

2. Henry Killegrew
3. Catherine Cadel

4. John Killegrew
5. Dorothy Monke
6. Andrew Cadel
7. Anna de Duwenvorde


This is from an old note of mine, transcribed hastily from old (and
relatively small in its size) ancestral table of Elizabeth's son Vilem
some years ago. This table hung in one of chambers of the Kost Castle
(http://www.kinskycastles.com/castle-kost.htm) and I did not have
enough time, so there may be some spelling mistakes.

-----------------

This ancestral table we don't know its provenance. Since it doesn't
state it's own sources and we have no idea how old it might or might
not be, it doesn't stand necessarily as a reputable source to contrast
with others.

Since you are questioning whether Henry Killigrew really d.s.p. since
you state this was an addition to the pedigree (obviously Henry was
living when the Vis was actually taken), we must treat these two
*contradictory* sources are equals until we know the sources upon
which they are based.

We do not know if "my niece Elizabeth Countess Kinski" was in fact the
*wife* of the Count or the daughter of the Count. We just don't have
any reliable source for determining the family structure.

That was my point.

Will Johnson

[[email protected]]

On 21 Pro, 23:02, wjhonson <[email protected]> wrote:

-----------------
This ancestral table we don't know its provenance. Since it doesn't
state it's own sources and we have no idea how old it might or might
not be, it doesn't stand necessarily as a reputable source to contrast
with others.

Thank you. I must admit that I was quite surprised when I read your
statement that "this family tree is certainly many centuries after-the-
fact", especially as you later wrote that you have no idea how old the
table might or might not be and these statements seem to be in
contradiction.

Anyway, as for the age of the table itself, I can add only that I had
not the opportunity to inspect it in great detail (I was just an
ordinary tourist), but I have not found any reason to question the
possibility of its origin in late 17th/early 18th century (neither the
confirmation of its age, naturally, but I am 99.99% positive that it
was not made "centuries after-the-fact").

Elizabeth's issue died out pretty soon (with the 1709 death of her son
Vilem to be more precise - Vilem had one daughter who dvp) so there is
not too much room for later interest in her ancestry on the side of
her descendants. Of course, _IF_ the table is really
(near)contemporary - which I certainly cannot prove at the moment -
then the source could very well be Elizabeth herself.

The Kost castle is currently in the ownership of a company, owned and
managed by brothers Giovanni and Pio Kinsky-dal Borgo together with
their father Norbert Kinsky. These belong to elder - Chlumec - line of
Kinsky family, and Norbert's father Zdenko Radslav Count Kinsky is a
well-know name in the area of genealogy of Bohemian nobility as an
enthusiast keenly interested in i.a. the history of his family.

The brothers were first Kinsky owners of the castle, which had
belonged to their mother's ancestors (the castle was bought by one
Vaclav Kazimir Netolicky z Eisenberka in 1738 and since then inherited
through Wratislaw and dal Borgo families). IIRC the table was on
display as a part of the permanent exhibition called something like
"Kinskys in the Bohemian history".

Since you are questioning whether Henry Killigrew really d.s.p. since
you state this was an addition to the pedigree (obviously Henry was
living when the Vis was actually taken), we must treat these two
*contradictory* sources are equals until we know the sources upon
which they are based.

That's certainly fair position.

Just two minor notes:
1) _IF_ the Kost table is contemporary, it would probably be quite
problematic to find the sources upon which it is based - it simply may
be that Elizabeth herself was the primary source.

2) At this moment, it is crucial to find the source of Mr Vivian's
information on the fate of Henry.

We do not know if "my niece Elizabeth Countess Kinski" was in fact the
*wife* of the Count or the daughter of the Count. We just don't have
any reliable source for determining the family structure.

What we do know is that there is no trace of any Adolf's daughter.
While argumentum ex silentio is of course always tricky, sometimes
Occam's razor should not be ignored, especially when there is a (most
probably near-contemporary) evidence that the _wife_ was the _niece_.

Regards,
Pavel