Diplomatarium Norvegicum

[Rob Kuijsten©]

God dag

Sorry for writing in English, but my knowledge of Norwegian is not
very good. I can read and generally understand it but get lost in the
details.

In the online version of the Diplomatarium Norvegicum, I found a
document from 1537. The text is in (old) Dutch and it tells about the
very strict rules and punishments on a ship under Dutch command.
See: http://tinyurl.com/dwyb8

I have the following questions:

It looks like this is not the complete text, Is that right? I do not
see any references of the name of the ship, its origin / home base and
the name of the captain. Would there be more in the original document?
Could there be more documents in Dutch in the Diplomatarium?

Best regards

Rob Kuijsten
Netherlands
http://www.kuijsten.de/navigator

[Trond Engen]

Rob Kuijsten© skreiv:

Sorry for writing in English, but my knowledge of Norwegian is not
very good. I can read and generally understand it but get lost in the
details.

Da svarer jeg på et mindre dansk norsk og håper det hjelper.

In the online version of the Diplomatarium Norvegicum, I found a
document from 1537. The text is in (old) Dutch and it tells about the
very strict rules and punishments on a ship under Dutch command.
See: http://tinyurl.com/dwyb8

I have the following questions:

It looks like this is not the complete text, Is that right?

Du har rett. Dokumentet er ei avskrift, og 1/6 av papiret mangler. Det
fins i to avskrifter, og notene viser avvik mellom utgavene.

I do not see any references of the name of the ship, its origin / home
base and the name of the captain.

Dokumentet gjelder ikke et bestemt skip. Det fastsetter ordensregler for
erkebiskop Olavs flåte. Erkebiskopen leda et opprør mot reformasjonen og
kongen, men stormenn og biskoper falt fra etter tur. Til slutt sto han
aleine igjen med noen få egne menn og noen skip fra Brabant. Siden
brevet er datert til mars 1537 er det skrevet på ei tid da erkebiskopens
opprør mot reformasjonen i praksis var over. Han og flåten forberedte
reisen til eksilet i Brabant, men moralen var sikkert ikke god, og
dokumentet må nok forstås ut fra det. Jeg leser nederlandsk dårlig --
kan du oversette?

Would there be more in the original document?

Noe mer, men originalen eksisterer nok ikke.

Could there be more documents in Dutch in the Diplomatarium?

Dette brevet er spesielt retta til brabantiske skip, i en svært spesiell
situasjon. Prøv å søke etter noen spesifikt nederlandske ord eller
fraser. (<http://www.dokpro.uio.no/dipl_norv/diplom_felt.html>)

Jeg tar med no.fag.spraak.diverse, for å øke bredden i svara.


--
Trond Engen
Sløv men interessert

[Trond Engen]

Jeg skreiv:

Jeg tar med no.fag.spraak.diverse, for å øke bredden i svara.

Nei, det gjorde jeg ikke. Skitt au.


--
Trond Engen
Sløv men interessert

[Elin Galtung Lihaug]

I tried using the link Trond Engen supplied
http://www.dokpro.uio.no/dipl_norv/diplom_felt.html
- searching for the Dutch word 'zoe' (in 'Brevteksten')
and found 31 documents, most of them in Dutch, but
some in Flemish, I believe.

There are 26 documents containing the word 'zij'.

Cheers,
Elin



"Trond Engen" <[email protected]> skrev i melding
news:[email protected]...

Rob Kuijsten© skreiv:

Sorry for writing in English, but my knowledge of Norwegian is not
very good. I can read and generally understand it but get lost in the
details.

Da svarer jeg på et mindre dansk norsk og håper det hjelper.

In the online version of the Diplomatarium Norvegicum, I found a
document from 1537. The text is in (old) Dutch and it tells about the
very strict rules and punishments on a ship under Dutch command.
See: http://tinyurl.com/dwyb8

I have the following questions:

It looks like this is not the complete text, Is that right?

Du har rett. Dokumentet er ei avskrift, og 1/6 av papiret mangler. Det
fins i to avskrifter, og notene viser avvik mellom utgavene.

I do not see any references of the name of the ship, its origin / home
base and the name of the captain.

Dokumentet gjelder ikke et bestemt skip. Det fastsetter ordensregler for
erkebiskop Olavs flåte. Erkebiskopen leda et opprør mot reformasjonen og
kongen, men stormenn og biskoper falt fra etter tur. Til slutt sto han
aleine igjen med noen få egne menn og noen skip fra Brabant. Siden brevet
er datert til mars 1537 er det skrevet på ei tid da erkebiskopens opprør
mot reformasjonen i praksis var over. Han og flåten forberedte reisen til
eksilet i Brabant, men moralen var sikkert ikke god, og dokumentet må nok
forstås ut fra det. Jeg leser nederlandsk dårlig --
kan du oversette?

Would there be more in the original document?

Noe mer, men originalen eksisterer nok ikke.

Could there be more documents in Dutch in the Diplomatarium?

Dette brevet er spesielt retta til brabantiske skip, i en svært spesiell
situasjon. Prøv å søke etter noen spesifikt nederlandske ord eller fraser.
(<http://www.dokpro.uio.no/dipl_norv/diplom_felt.html>)

Jeg tar med no.fag.spraak.diverse, for å øke bredden i svara.


--
Trond Engen
Sløv men interessert

[Rob Kuijsten©]

On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 21:39:52 +0200 our friend Trond Engen
<[email protected]> organization: wrote :

Rob Kuijsten© skreiv:

Sorry for writing in English, but my knowledge of Norwegian is not
very good. I can read and generally understand it but get lost in the
details.

Da svarer jeg på et mindre dansk norsk og håper det hjelper.

In the online version of the Diplomatarium Norvegicum, I found a
document from 1537. The text is in (old) Dutch and it tells about the
very strict rules and punishments on a ship under Dutch command.
See: http://tinyurl.com/dwyb8

I have the following questions:

It looks like this is not the complete text, Is that right?

Du har rett. Dokumentet er ei avskrift, og 1/6 av papiret mangler. Det
fins i to avskrifter, og notene viser avvik mellom utgavene.

I do not see any references of the name of the ship, its origin / home
base and the name of the captain.

Dokumentet gjelder ikke et bestemt skip. Det fastsetter ordensregler for
erkebiskop Olavs flåte. Erkebiskopen leda et opprør mot reformasjonen og
kongen, men stormenn og biskoper falt fra etter tur. Til slutt sto han
aleine igjen med noen få egne menn og noen skip fra Brabant. Siden
brevet er datert til mars 1537 er det skrevet på ei tid da erkebiskopens
opprør mot reformasjonen i praksis var over. Han og flåten forberedte
reisen til eksilet i Brabant, men moralen var sikkert ikke god, og
dokumentet må nok forstås ut fra det. Jeg leser nederlandsk dårlig --
kan du oversette?

Would there be more in the original document?

Noe mer, men originalen eksisterer nok ikke.

Could there be more documents in Dutch in the Diplomatarium?

Dette brevet er spesielt retta til brabantiske skip, i en svært spesiell
situasjon. Prøv å søke etter noen spesifikt nederlandske ord eller
fraser. (<http://www.dokpro.uio.no/dipl_norv/diplom_felt.html>)

Jeg tar med no.fag.spraak.diverse, for å øke bredden i svara.

Thank you and also Elin for your reactions

That's the good thing about the internet and usenet. I did not know
much about Norwegian history, but I understand the uprising against
the Danes and reformation in 1537 was an important moment in time. A
Curious fact is that king Christian II fled to Holland in 1533 and
found asylum there. After his victory in 1537 his opponent Bishop Olav
also found asylum in the Netherlands. I understand he died there the
next year. Any idea where he is buried?

With the help of some genealogists from the usenet group
news:soc.genealogy.benelux I made the following (free) translation of
the document http://tinyurl.com/dwyb8 in English.

It's about ship regulations / rules. There are obvious two classes of
crew onboard. "bootgesellen" (captain, boats man, ship's surgeon etc)
and "hoeflu" (sailors)


b.XII s.710

Sammendrag: Skibsartikler for Baadsmændene (paa Erkebiskop Olaf s
Skibe).

Kilde: Efter samtidig Afskrift i norske Rigsarkiv (Münch. Saml. No.
4200). SammenlagtHelark uden Forsegling; en Sjettedel af Papiret
bortrevet. (Jfr. m. en anden Afskr.ibid. No. 4199 med Erkebiskop Olafs
Skrivers Haand, hvorfra Varianterne).

Nummer: 572.

Dato: [Slutn. af Marts 1537.] Sted: [Throndhjem?]

===========================================

In the regulations is written that the boats man (officers) will have
breakfast first before the sailors. For dinner it's the other way
around. Sailors first and later the officers. There is a rule that one
cannot dish up more food than one can eat otherwise there will be a
sanctions from the shipmaster. No cursing onboard else there will be
sanctions.

There are several punishments for "oversleeping" (being to late for
the watch-duty I suppose). Roaming around on the ship is also not
allowed.

"Veroeveren" "Sleeping on land" (for obvious reasons, these guys are
sailors!!) is not allowed. Punishment, public lashing (voor de mast
gaan, an old dutch sailors expression)

Drunkenness on watch-duty will be punished with "keelhauling"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keelhauling I believe the waters around
Norway can be very cold too.

Lightning up a candle on deck during the period of darkness was only
allowed by special permission, otherwise punishment with the lash.

Fighting or "knife pulling" will be punished with keelhauling

When someone gets injured or wounded by the enemy, payment will
continue. In case of death payment will be remitted to the heir(s)

When belongings of the enemy are seized (on sea or on land) one part
can be kept and the other part will be submitted as the legitimate
part of his majesty the emperor
http://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_V_av_ ... erske_rike

===========================================

I just wonder if this was the ship that brought Olav Engelbrektsson to
the Netherlands?

BTW I fond a lot of documents in (old) Dutch and Latin by submitting
the search terms: Holland, Zeeland, Amsterdam etc..

Regards
Rob Kuijsten

http://www.surnamenavigator.org
http://www.atlas1868.nl

[dn18553]

I understand he died there the
next year. Any idea where he is buried?

According to http://www.katolsk.no/mn/erkebiskoper/27.htm archbishop Olav Engelbrektsson is buried before the high altar in the church St. Gommaire in Lierre (Lier), Brabant in today's Belgium.