Wife (or wives) of James Stewart, 5th High Steward of Scotla
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
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Valerio Lucchinetti (Inte
Wife (or wives) of James Stewart, 5th High Steward of Scotla
Hello to all
I find conflicting information on the name of the wife of James Stewart, 5th
High Steward of Scotland (1243-1309).
According to some sources, posted in different websites, his wife was
Cecilia, dau. Patrick, Earl of Dunbar. Other sources however say James's
wife to be Egidia/Jill de Burgh, dau. Walter de Burgh, 1st Earl of Ulster.
Can anyone help on this subject ?
Valerio Lucchinetti
I find conflicting information on the name of the wife of James Stewart, 5th
High Steward of Scotland (1243-1309).
According to some sources, posted in different websites, his wife was
Cecilia, dau. Patrick, Earl of Dunbar. Other sources however say James's
wife to be Egidia/Jill de Burgh, dau. Walter de Burgh, 1st Earl of Ulster.
Can anyone help on this subject ?
Valerio Lucchinetti
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Tim Powys-Lybbe
Re: Wife (or wives) of James Stewart, 5th High Steward of Sc
In message of 31 Oct, vplucc@interfree.it ("Valerio Lucchinetti
\(Interfree\)") wrote:
I would question whether a website can be a source, much as it may be a
statement without evidence or a report with sone evidence.
Scots Peerage, Vol I, pp. 13-14 says that he m. Egidia, sister of
Richard de Burgh, earl of Ulster.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
\(Interfree\)") wrote:
Hello to all
I find conflicting information on the name of the wife of James Stewart, 5th
High Steward of Scotland (1243-1309).
According to some sources, posted in different websites,
I would question whether a website can be a source, much as it may be a
statement without evidence or a report with sone evidence.
his wife was Cecilia, dau. Patrick, Earl of Dunbar. Other sources
however say James's wife to be Egidia/Jill de Burgh, dau. Walter de
Burgh, 1st Earl of Ulster.
Can anyone help on this subject ?
Scots Peerage, Vol I, pp. 13-14 says that he m. Egidia, sister of
Richard de Burgh, earl of Ulster.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
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Jared Linn Olar
Re: Wife (or wives) of James Stewart, 5th High Steward of Sc
As Tim said, James married Egidia (Jill) du Burgh. There was never
any marriage between James and Cecilia, and I believe there is no
proof that Cecilia even existed. Scots Peerage is the source to
follow on this point. Ignore that information about Cecilia from
those websites.
Jared Linn Olar.
Tim Powys-Lybbe <tim@powys.org> wrote in message news:<b5389c064d.tim@south-frm.demon.co.uk>...
any marriage between James and Cecilia, and I believe there is no
proof that Cecilia even existed. Scots Peerage is the source to
follow on this point. Ignore that information about Cecilia from
those websites.
Jared Linn Olar.
Tim Powys-Lybbe <tim@powys.org> wrote in message news:<b5389c064d.tim@south-frm.demon.co.uk>...
In message of 31 Oct, vplucc@interfree.it ("Valerio Lucchinetti
\(Interfree\)") wrote:
Hello to all
I find conflicting information on the name of the wife of James Stewart, 5th
High Steward of Scotland (1243-1309).
According to some sources, posted in different websites,
I would question whether a website can be a source, much as it may be a
statement without evidence or a report with sone evidence.
his wife was Cecilia, dau. Patrick, Earl of Dunbar. Other sources
however say James's wife to be Egidia/Jill de Burgh, dau. Walter de
Burgh, 1st Earl of Ulster.
Can anyone help on this subject ?
Scots Peerage, Vol I, pp. 13-14 says that he m. Egidia, sister of
Richard de Burgh, earl of Ulster.
-
Matthew Hovious
Re: Wife (or wives) of James Stewart, 5th High Steward of Sc
Tim Powys-Lybbe <tim@powys.org> wrote in message news:<b5389c064d.tim@south-frm.demon.co.uk>...
I assume you did not actually mean that all websites should be tossed
onto the rubbish heap. Many universities issue students with
guidelines for properly citing websites as sources in their written
work, precisely because websites grant so many students access to
arcane or out-of-print works that they would otherwise be unable to
consult. If websites cannot be sources then I'm sure that those behind
the construction of sites such as http://www.british-history.ac.uk
will be disappointed to learn of the futility of their efforts.
I would question whether a website can be a source, much as it may be a
statement without evidence or a report with sone evidence.
I assume you did not actually mean that all websites should be tossed
onto the rubbish heap. Many universities issue students with
guidelines for properly citing websites as sources in their written
work, precisely because websites grant so many students access to
arcane or out-of-print works that they would otherwise be unable to
consult. If websites cannot be sources then I'm sure that those behind
the construction of sites such as http://www.british-history.ac.uk
will be disappointed to learn of the futility of their efforts.
-
Tim Powys-Lybbe
Re: Wife (or wives) of James Stewart, 5th High Steward of Sc
In message of 3 Nov, dominus_matthaeus@yahoo.co.uk (Matthew Hovious)
wrote:
Agreed. I did not express myself properly: I was referring to website
genealogies of the style which populate Ancestry.com and Rootsweb's
World Connect project. And I would include private websites in the
same general warning.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
wrote:
Tim Powys-Lybbe <tim@powys.org> wrote in message
news:<b5389c064d.tim@south-frm.demon.co.uk>...
I would question whether a website can be a source, much as it may
be a statement without evidence or a report with some evidence.
I assume you did not actually mean that all websites should be tossed
onto the rubbish heap. Many universities issue students with
guidelines for properly citing websites as sources in their written
work, precisely because websites grant so many students access to
arcane or out-of-print works that they would otherwise be unable to
consult. If websites cannot be sources then I'm sure that those behind
the construction of sites such as http://www.british-history.ac.uk
will be disappointed to learn of the futility of their efforts.
Agreed. I did not express myself properly: I was referring to website
genealogies of the style which populate Ancestry.com and Rootsweb's
World Connect project. And I would include private websites in the
same general warning.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
-
Valerio Lucchinetti (Inte
R: Wife (or wives) of James Stewart, 5th High Steward of Sco
Not all the websites are rubbish. Some of the private websites try to put
things in perspective, and to inform people about the doubts, the oddities
and so on; others discover dates and so on...c'est la vie.
In this case the Cecilia of Dunbar was reported from several people; this
means that this story of Cecilia of Dunbar (even if she never existed)
marrying a Steward of Scotland must have had a beginning, presumably on
printed paper before the Internet. Maybe an engagement, who knows. Some
years ago in this very same list I pointed out another recurrent doubt about
a medieval royal marriage: King James I of Cyprus (d.1398) according to some
sources was married to a Bavarian princess, according to others (the
majority) to a princess of Brunswick. When a different name is recurrent
there could be a possible explanation, that is it.
-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: Tim Powys-Lybbe [mailto:tim@powys.org]
Inviato: Wednesday, November 03, 2004 5:21 PM
A: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Oggetto: Re: Wife (or wives) of James Stewart, 5th High Steward of
Scotland
In message of 3 Nov, dominus_matthaeus@yahoo.co.uk (Matthew Hovious)
wrote:
Agreed. I did not express myself properly: I was referring to website
genealogies of the style which populate Ancestry.com and Rootsweb's
World Connect project. And I would include private websites in the
same general warning.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
things in perspective, and to inform people about the doubts, the oddities
and so on; others discover dates and so on...c'est la vie.
In this case the Cecilia of Dunbar was reported from several people; this
means that this story of Cecilia of Dunbar (even if she never existed)
marrying a Steward of Scotland must have had a beginning, presumably on
printed paper before the Internet. Maybe an engagement, who knows. Some
years ago in this very same list I pointed out another recurrent doubt about
a medieval royal marriage: King James I of Cyprus (d.1398) according to some
sources was married to a Bavarian princess, according to others (the
majority) to a princess of Brunswick. When a different name is recurrent
there could be a possible explanation, that is it.
-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: Tim Powys-Lybbe [mailto:tim@powys.org]
Inviato: Wednesday, November 03, 2004 5:21 PM
A: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Oggetto: Re: Wife (or wives) of James Stewart, 5th High Steward of
Scotland
In message of 3 Nov, dominus_matthaeus@yahoo.co.uk (Matthew Hovious)
wrote:
Tim Powys-Lybbe <tim@powys.org> wrote in message
news:<b5389c064d.tim@south-frm.demon.co.uk>...
I would question whether a website can be a source, much as it may
be a statement without evidence or a report with some evidence.
I assume you did not actually mean that all websites should be tossed
onto the rubbish heap. Many universities issue students with
guidelines for properly citing websites as sources in their written
work, precisely because websites grant so many students access to
arcane or out-of-print works that they would otherwise be unable to
consult. If websites cannot be sources then I'm sure that those behind
the construction of sites such as http://www.british-history.ac.uk
will be disappointed to learn of the futility of their efforts.
Agreed. I did not express myself properly: I was referring to website
genealogies of the style which populate Ancestry.com and Rootsweb's
World Connect project. And I would include private websites in the
same general warning.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
-
Tim Powys-Lybbe
Re: R: Wife (or wives) of James Stewart, 5th High Steward of
In message of 3 Nov, vplucc@interfree.it ("Valerio Lucchinetti
\(Interfree\)") wrote:
Most of the private websites make no attempt to provide any evidence for
what they present. As such they are hardly worth looking at twice and
thus should be discarded as rubbish.
Undoubtedly. Their attempts should be applauded. But if they give a
source, then reference should be made to that source to see that they
have interpreted it wisely. In other words, treat these things as a
finding aids, no more.
I have seen printed papers that are wrong. I have also seen
genealogies, as with some by my ancestors, that deliberately conceal
what happened, usually by inserting the odd untruth. When you see a
secondary source, the questions must always be "how do they know that?".
The explanation must be sought from source material, not from chasing
old genealogies. If you quote an old genealogy, say that no sources
were attached and invite people to challenge it. For preference either
find the sources yourself or find someone you can trust who has found
some good sources.
Prime source material is either surviving documents of the period
concerned or faithfully transcribed (hopefully) copies of such
documents. Anything distant from such is not a prime source.
A superb book on methodology is Round's "Studies in Peerage and Family
History" reprinted by the Genealogical Publishing Co in 1996. He tears
enthusiastically into all manner of frauds and poor genealogy, some of
which had been around for centuries. His method was always to find
documents from the period concerned; as such he was an enthusiastic
collector of charters and I even have one or two letters of his to
firms who traded in charters and other ancient documents.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
\(Interfree\)") wrote:
Not all the websites are rubbish.
Most of the private websites make no attempt to provide any evidence for
what they present. As such they are hardly worth looking at twice and
thus should be discarded as rubbish.
Some of the private websites try to put things in perspective, and to
inform people about the doubts, the oddities and so on; others
discover dates and so on...c'est la vie.
Undoubtedly. Their attempts should be applauded. But if they give a
source, then reference should be made to that source to see that they
have interpreted it wisely. In other words, treat these things as a
finding aids, no more.
In this case the Cecilia of Dunbar was reported from several people;
this means that this story of Cecilia of Dunbar (even if she never
existed) marrying a Steward of Scotland must have had a beginning,
presumably on printed paper before the Internet.
I have seen printed papers that are wrong. I have also seen
genealogies, as with some by my ancestors, that deliberately conceal
what happened, usually by inserting the odd untruth. When you see a
secondary source, the questions must always be "how do they know that?".
Maybe an engagement, who knows. Some years ago in this very same list
I pointed out another recurrent doubt about a medieval royal
marriage: King James I of Cyprus (d.1398) according to some sources
was married to a Bavarian princess, according to others (the
majority) to a princess of Brunswick. When a different name is
recurrent there could be a possible explanation, that is it.
The explanation must be sought from source material, not from chasing
old genealogies. If you quote an old genealogy, say that no sources
were attached and invite people to challenge it. For preference either
find the sources yourself or find someone you can trust who has found
some good sources.
Prime source material is either surviving documents of the period
concerned or faithfully transcribed (hopefully) copies of such
documents. Anything distant from such is not a prime source.
A superb book on methodology is Round's "Studies in Peerage and Family
History" reprinted by the Genealogical Publishing Co in 1996. He tears
enthusiastically into all manner of frauds and poor genealogy, some of
which had been around for centuries. His method was always to find
documents from the period concerned; as such he was an enthusiastic
collector of charters and I even have one or two letters of his to
firms who traded in charters and other ancient documents.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
-
Gjest
Re: Wife (or wives) of James Stewart, 5th High Steward of Sc
"I was referring to website genealogies of the style which populate Ancestry.com and Rootsweb's World Connect project. And I would include private websites in the same general warning. "
Tim you paint with a broad brush imho
There are just as many trees on ancestry with no cited sources as there are web sites with no cited sources.
Equally there are trees that are very well documented on ancestry. It is caveat emptor. Web sites that list tons of "facts" with no substantiation have to be looked at askance. Some people think they're protecting their "work" by not citing sources, really they just make it harder for those of us who want to do good genealogy.
Will Johnson
Tim you paint with a broad brush imho
There are just as many trees on ancestry with no cited sources as there are web sites with no cited sources.
Equally there are trees that are very well documented on ancestry. It is caveat emptor. Web sites that list tons of "facts" with no substantiation have to be looked at askance. Some people think they're protecting their "work" by not citing sources, really they just make it harder for those of us who want to do good genealogy.
Will Johnson