CP Correction: Cristina, 2nd wife of Patrick, Earl of Dunbar
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Gjest
CP Correction: Cristina, 2nd wife of Patrick, Earl of Dunbar
Friday, 29 October, 2004
Hello All,
The account in CP concerning Cristina or Christine, 2nd wife of
Patrick, Earl of Dunbar (d. 1232) states without documentation,
' He m., 2ndly, before 4 Dec. 1214, Christine, widow of
William Bruce, of Annandale. ' [1]
The account in Scots Peerage provides no further evidence as to the
ancestry of Cristina. One other record was previously found, dated 11
Nov 1218, concerning an agreement between Patrick, Earl of Dunbar;
Cristina, his Countess; and Robert de Brus, her eldest son by her first
husband, with regards to Cristina's dower rights [2]. Interesting as
this document is, it provides no further evidence concerning her
parentage.
Andrew B. W. MacEwen, the noted Scots genealogist, published an
article in The Genealogist in 2003 which resolved this deficiency. In
that article, Mr. MacEwen identified Cristina as a daughter of Walter
fitz Alan (d. 1177), the first Steward of Scotland of that family [3].
While this does not directly impact the ancestry of the Earls of Dunbar,
as Earl Patrick's issue were by his 1st wife, it does bear on the
ancestry of the Bruce Lords of Annandale, subsequently Earls of Carrick
and Kings of Scots: a great many individuals (including most, if not
all, of the Royal Houses of Europe) have ancestry impacted by this
discovery.
Cheers,
John *
NOTES
[1] CP IV:505, sub _Dunbar_ .
[2] An agreement between Robert de Brus and Patrick, earl of Dunbar and
C. the countess, records that Patrick was to retain one third of the
market of Hartlepool, co. Durham (Calendar of Documents Relating to
Scotland, i, 1108–1272, p. 123, no. 700). '
' #700. Nov. 11, 1218.
Agreement made at the Feast of St. Martin in the year of the Incarnation
1218. between P[atric] earl of Dunbar, and C[hristina?] the countess,
and Sir R[obert] de Brys; viz., the earl and Countess have demised to
Sir Robert all the land they have in Hertnissa (Hertness), viz., of the
countess dower, for the term of eight years, for £36 of silver, and 6s.
yearly, one moiety at Pentecost and the other at Martinmas; saving the
third part of the market and fair of Hertpulle (Hartlepool), to the earl
and Countess, if they and the said Robert can acquire these. And it is
to be observed that Sir Robert shall pay the money to the said earl and
his mother C. the Countess, so long as they shall warrant the said land
to him. Also the said Sir Robert shall not demise the said land for
eight years in such mode as he received it from his grandfather (avi).
His pledges are:--- Humphrey de Cardino (Jardine), Hugh de Corri,
William de Heriz, Robert de Crossebi, Richard de Bosco, G. son of John
(Johnston), Robert de Tremor. [Duchy of Lancaster, Cartae Miscellanae,
Vol. III, p.12].'
[3] Andrew B. W. MacEwen, SEVEN SCOTTISH COUNTESSES: A MISCELLANY, III.
Cristina de Brus, Countess of Dunbar: The Genealogist, Fall 2003 (Volume 17, No.
2), pp. 223-233
* John P. Ravilious
Hello All,
The account in CP concerning Cristina or Christine, 2nd wife of
Patrick, Earl of Dunbar (d. 1232) states without documentation,
' He m., 2ndly, before 4 Dec. 1214, Christine, widow of
William Bruce, of Annandale. ' [1]
The account in Scots Peerage provides no further evidence as to the
ancestry of Cristina. One other record was previously found, dated 11
Nov 1218, concerning an agreement between Patrick, Earl of Dunbar;
Cristina, his Countess; and Robert de Brus, her eldest son by her first
husband, with regards to Cristina's dower rights [2]. Interesting as
this document is, it provides no further evidence concerning her
parentage.
Andrew B. W. MacEwen, the noted Scots genealogist, published an
article in The Genealogist in 2003 which resolved this deficiency. In
that article, Mr. MacEwen identified Cristina as a daughter of Walter
fitz Alan (d. 1177), the first Steward of Scotland of that family [3].
While this does not directly impact the ancestry of the Earls of Dunbar,
as Earl Patrick's issue were by his 1st wife, it does bear on the
ancestry of the Bruce Lords of Annandale, subsequently Earls of Carrick
and Kings of Scots: a great many individuals (including most, if not
all, of the Royal Houses of Europe) have ancestry impacted by this
discovery.
Cheers,
John *
NOTES
[1] CP IV:505, sub _Dunbar_ .
[2] An agreement between Robert de Brus and Patrick, earl of Dunbar and
C. the countess, records that Patrick was to retain one third of the
market of Hartlepool, co. Durham (Calendar of Documents Relating to
Scotland, i, 1108–1272, p. 123, no. 700). '
' #700. Nov. 11, 1218.
Agreement made at the Feast of St. Martin in the year of the Incarnation
1218. between P[atric] earl of Dunbar, and C[hristina?] the countess,
and Sir R[obert] de Brys; viz., the earl and Countess have demised to
Sir Robert all the land they have in Hertnissa (Hertness), viz., of the
countess dower, for the term of eight years, for £36 of silver, and 6s.
yearly, one moiety at Pentecost and the other at Martinmas; saving the
third part of the market and fair of Hertpulle (Hartlepool), to the earl
and Countess, if they and the said Robert can acquire these. And it is
to be observed that Sir Robert shall pay the money to the said earl and
his mother C. the Countess, so long as they shall warrant the said land
to him. Also the said Sir Robert shall not demise the said land for
eight years in such mode as he received it from his grandfather (avi).
His pledges are:--- Humphrey de Cardino (Jardine), Hugh de Corri,
William de Heriz, Robert de Crossebi, Richard de Bosco, G. son of John
(Johnston), Robert de Tremor. [Duchy of Lancaster, Cartae Miscellanae,
Vol. III, p.12].'
[3] Andrew B. W. MacEwen, SEVEN SCOTTISH COUNTESSES: A MISCELLANY, III.
Cristina de Brus, Countess of Dunbar: The Genealogist, Fall 2003 (Volume 17, No.
2), pp. 223-233
* John P. Ravilious
-
Doug McDonald
Re: CP Correction: Cristina, 2nd wife of Patrick, Earl of Du
Therav3@aol.com wrote:
is Cristina a daughter of Walter's wife Eschyna?
Doug McDonald
Andrew B. W. MacEwen, the noted Scots genealogist, published an
article in The Genealogist in 2003 which resolved this deficiency. In
that article, Mr. MacEwen identified Cristina as a daughter of Walter
fitz Alan (d. 1177), the first Steward of Scotland of that family [3].
is Cristina a daughter of Walter's wife Eschyna?
Doug McDonald
-
John Ravilious
Re: CP Correction: Cristina, 2nd wife of Patrick, Earl of Du
Monday, 1 November, 2004
Dear Doug,
I am aware of no other wife of Walter fitz Alan (d. 1177). I
don't recall that Eschina's parentage is proven (either Uhtred of
Huntlaw or Thomas de Londoniis), but I show her as the mother of
Christian/Cristina (as well as of Alan fitz Walter, Steward of
Scotland, d. 1204).
Cheers,
John
Doug McDonald <mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu> wrote in message news:<cm0f1d$ase$1@news.ks.uiuc.edu>...
Dear Doug,
I am aware of no other wife of Walter fitz Alan (d. 1177). I
don't recall that Eschina's parentage is proven (either Uhtred of
Huntlaw or Thomas de Londoniis), but I show her as the mother of
Christian/Cristina (as well as of Alan fitz Walter, Steward of
Scotland, d. 1204).
Cheers,
John
Doug McDonald <mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu> wrote in message news:<cm0f1d$ase$1@news.ks.uiuc.edu>...
Therav3@aol.com wrote:
Andrew B. W. MacEwen, the noted Scots genealogist, published an
article in The Genealogist in 2003 which resolved this deficiency. In
that article, Mr. MacEwen identified Cristina as a daughter of Walter
fitz Alan (d. 1177), the first Steward of Scotland of that family [3].
is Cristina a daughter of Walter's wife Eschyna?
Doug McDonald
-
Gjest
Re: CP Correction: Cristina, 2nd wife of Patrick, Earl of Du
"Andrew B. W. MacEwen, the noted Scots genealogist, published an article in The Genealogist in 2003 which resolved this deficiency. In that article, Mr. MacEwen identified Cristina as a daughter of Walter fitz Alan (d. 1177), the first Steward of Scotland of that family [3]. While this does not directly impact the ancestry of the Earls of Dunbar, as Earl Patrick's issue were by his 1st wife, it does bear on the
ancestry of the Bruce Lords of Annandale, subsequently Earls of Carrick and Kings of Scots: a great many individuals (including most, if not all, of the Royal Houses of Europe) have ancestry impacted by this discovery."
This also has bearing on a particular immigrant line that has been discussed slightly here. In a marriage contract of 18 Jul 1594 at Chatelet de Paris, by notaries Cathereau and Babynet a Jehan de Mentet (John Menteith) states that his great-grandfather was the Earl of Montrose.
William Graham, 1st Earl of Montrose ~1463-1513 (battle of Flodden) would imho be the likely person and he is a descendent of Patrick Earl Dunbar -1232 both through Robert Bruce 1243-1303 and through his sister Christiana of Bruce ~1256-1356/7 (who married Earl Gratney of Mar).
In the forward direction, this John Menteith is the grandfather of Suzanne d'Aillebout 1622-1680 born in France and died in Boucherville, Quebec from who descend a number of persons.
Will Johnson
ancestry of the Bruce Lords of Annandale, subsequently Earls of Carrick and Kings of Scots: a great many individuals (including most, if not all, of the Royal Houses of Europe) have ancestry impacted by this discovery."
This also has bearing on a particular immigrant line that has been discussed slightly here. In a marriage contract of 18 Jul 1594 at Chatelet de Paris, by notaries Cathereau and Babynet a Jehan de Mentet (John Menteith) states that his great-grandfather was the Earl of Montrose.
William Graham, 1st Earl of Montrose ~1463-1513 (battle of Flodden) would imho be the likely person and he is a descendent of Patrick Earl Dunbar -1232 both through Robert Bruce 1243-1303 and through his sister Christiana of Bruce ~1256-1356/7 (who married Earl Gratney of Mar).
In the forward direction, this John Menteith is the grandfather of Suzanne d'Aillebout 1622-1680 born in France and died in Boucherville, Quebec from who descend a number of persons.
Will Johnson
-
Alex Maxwell Findlater
Re: CP Correction: Cristina, 2nd wife of Patrick, Earl of Du
My recollection is that there is charter evisence that her christian
name was Eschina. I think the de Molle is by inference. Uchtred made
a grant to Kelso of the church of Molle ca 1152. I suspect he was her
brother, not father.
name was Eschina. I think the de Molle is by inference. Uchtred made
a grant to Kelso of the church of Molle ca 1152. I suspect he was her
brother, not father.
-
Brendan Wilson
Re: CP Correction: Cristina, 2nd wife of Patrick, Earl of Du
Hi John
I have her as follows;
Eschyne de Molle, dau of Thomas de lundins
grand dau (mat) of Uhtred de Molle
sister of Malcolm, 1st Doorward of Scotland
widow of Robert le Croc, Snr
regards
Brendan Wilson
NZ
On 1 Nov 2004 08:10:17 -0800, therav3@aol.com (John Ravilious) wrote:
I have her as follows;
Eschyne de Molle, dau of Thomas de lundins
grand dau (mat) of Uhtred de Molle
sister of Malcolm, 1st Doorward of Scotland
widow of Robert le Croc, Snr
regards
Brendan Wilson
NZ
On 1 Nov 2004 08:10:17 -0800, therav3@aol.com (John Ravilious) wrote:
Monday, 1 November, 2004
Dear Doug,
I am aware of no other wife of Walter fitz Alan (d. 1177). I
don't recall that Eschina's parentage is proven (either Uhtred of
Huntlaw or Thomas de Londoniis), but I show her as the mother of
Christian/Cristina (as well as of Alan fitz Walter, Steward of
Scotland, d. 1204).
Cheers,
John
Doug McDonald <mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu> wrote in message news:<cm0f1d$ase$1@news.ks.uiuc.edu>...
Therav3@aol.com wrote:
Andrew B. W. MacEwen, the noted Scots genealogist, published an
article in The Genealogist in 2003 which resolved this deficiency. In
that article, Mr. MacEwen identified Cristina as a daughter of Walter
fitz Alan (d. 1177), the first Steward of Scotland of that family [3].
is Cristina a daughter of Walter's wife Eschyna?
Doug McDonald
-
Gjest
Re: CP Correction: Cristina, 2nd wife of Patrick, Earl of Du
"I have her as follows;
Eschyne de Molle, dau of Thomas de lundins"
John's point was that her parentage (Thomas of London) is not proven. You didn't point any supplementary evidence to show that your statement that it was Thomas was correct.
Will
Eschyne de Molle, dau of Thomas de lundins"
John's point was that her parentage (Thomas of London) is not proven. You didn't point any supplementary evidence to show that your statement that it was Thomas was correct.
Will
-
Brendan Wilson
Re: CP Correction: Cristina, 2nd wife of Patrick, Earl of Du
There are charts of the Stewart origins and early High Stewards
page 46 "The Forgotten Monarchy of Scotland"
by Prince Michael of Albany
from this chart is where I got this quote
page 47 shows the Son :
Alan Fitz Walter = Eve
/
Walter Stewart =Beatrix
/
Alexander = Jean
/
Sir James Stewart= Jill de Burgh
/
Sir Walter=Marjory Bruce
/
king Robert II
On Tue, 2 Nov 2004 17:28:46 +0000 (UTC), WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
page 46 "The Forgotten Monarchy of Scotland"
by Prince Michael of Albany
from this chart is where I got this quote
page 47 shows the Son :
Alan Fitz Walter = Eve
/
Walter Stewart =Beatrix
/
Alexander = Jean
/
Sir James Stewart= Jill de Burgh
/
Sir Walter=Marjory Bruce
/
king Robert II
On Tue, 2 Nov 2004 17:28:46 +0000 (UTC), WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
"I have her as follows;
Eschyne de Molle, dau of Thomas de lundins"
John's point was that her parentage (Thomas of London) is not proven. You didn't point any supplementary evidence to show that your statement that it was Thomas was correct.
Will
-
Brendan Wilson
Re: CP Correction: Cristina, 2nd wife of Patrick, Earl of Du
There are charts of the Stewart origins and early High Stewards
page 46 "The Forgotten Monarchy of Scotland"
by Prince Michael of Albany
from this chart is where I got that quote
"I have her as follows;
Eschyne de Molle, dau of Thomas de lundins
grand dau (mat) of Uhtred de Molle
sister of Malcolm, 1st Doorward of Scotland
widow of Robert le Croc, Snr "
regards
Brendan Wilson
NZ
page 47 shows the Son :
Alan Fitz Walter = Eve
/
Walter Stewart =Beatrix
/
Alexander = Jean
/
Sir James Stewart= Jill de Burgh
/
Sir Walter=Marjory Bruce
/
king Robert II
On Tue, 2 Nov 2004 17:28:46 +0000 (UTC), WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
page 46 "The Forgotten Monarchy of Scotland"
by Prince Michael of Albany
from this chart is where I got that quote
"I have her as follows;
Eschyne de Molle, dau of Thomas de lundins
grand dau (mat) of Uhtred de Molle
sister of Malcolm, 1st Doorward of Scotland
widow of Robert le Croc, Snr "
regards
Brendan Wilson
NZ
page 47 shows the Son :
Alan Fitz Walter = Eve
/
Walter Stewart =Beatrix
/
Alexander = Jean
/
Sir James Stewart= Jill de Burgh
/
Sir Walter=Marjory Bruce
/
king Robert II
On Tue, 2 Nov 2004 17:28:46 +0000 (UTC), WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
"I have her as follows;
Eschyne de Molle, dau of Thomas de lundins"
John's point was that her parentage (Thomas of London) is not proven. You didn't point any supplementary evidence to show that your statement that it was Thomas was correct.
Will
-
Todd A. Farmerie
Re: CP Correction: Cristina, 2nd wife of Patrick, Earl of Du
Brendan Wilson wrote:
Unfortunately, this work is entirely untrustworthy, intended solely to
support and glorify the author's own fraudulant claim to be the true
heir to the Scottish crown.
taf
There are charts of the Stewart origins and early High Stewards
page 46 "The Forgotten Monarchy of Scotland"
by Prince Michael of Albany
from this chart is where I got that quote
"I have her as follows;
Eschyne de Molle, dau of Thomas de lundins
grand dau (mat) of Uhtred de Molle
sister of Malcolm, 1st Doorward of Scotland
widow of Robert le Croc, Snr "
Unfortunately, this work is entirely untrustworthy, intended solely to
support and glorify the author's own fraudulant claim to be the true
heir to the Scottish crown.
taf
-
Jared Linn Olar
Re: CP Correction: Cristina, 2nd wife of Patrick, Earl of Du
And in so saying, Todd is being extremely and unnecessarily kind. It
would be more accurate to describe Forgotten Monarchy as a steaming
heap of human excrement . . . .
Jared Linn Olar
"Todd A. Farmerie" <farmerie@interfold.com> wrote in message news:<4189687B.6090007@interfold.com>...
would be more accurate to describe Forgotten Monarchy as a steaming
heap of human excrement . . . .
Jared Linn Olar
"Todd A. Farmerie" <farmerie@interfold.com> wrote in message news:<4189687B.6090007@interfold.com>...
Brendan Wilson wrote:
"The Forgotten Monarchy of Scotland"
by Prince Michael of Albany
Unfortunately, this work is entirely untrustworthy, intended solely to
support and glorify the author's own fraudulant claim to be the true
heir to the Scottish crown.
taf
-
Jared Linn Olar
Re: CP Correction: Cristina, 2nd wife of Patrick, Earl of Du
Please correct me if my memory is faulty, but I was pretty sure that
William Bruce of Annandale was not the ancestor of the later Bruces of
Annandale, Earls of Carrick, but instead that he died without issue.
That would mean the parentage of William Bruce's wife Christine would
have no impact on anyone's ancestry. (I don't have my files handy
right now, or else I wouldn't be so clueless . . .)
Jared Linn Olar
Therav3@aol.com wrote in message news:<140.36264ffd.2eb47fb1@aol.com>...
William Bruce of Annandale was not the ancestor of the later Bruces of
Annandale, Earls of Carrick, but instead that he died without issue.
That would mean the parentage of William Bruce's wife Christine would
have no impact on anyone's ancestry. (I don't have my files handy
right now, or else I wouldn't be so clueless . . .)
Jared Linn Olar
Therav3@aol.com wrote in message news:<140.36264ffd.2eb47fb1@aol.com>...
Friday, 29 October, 2004
Hello All,
The account in CP concerning Cristina or Christine, 2nd wife of
Patrick, Earl of Dunbar (d. 1232) states without documentation,
' He m., 2ndly, before 4 Dec. 1214, Christine, widow of
William Bruce, of Annandale. ' [1]
The account in Scots Peerage provides no further evidence as to the
ancestry of Cristina. One other record was previously found, dated 11
Nov 1218, concerning an agreement between Patrick, Earl of Dunbar;
Cristina, his Countess; and Robert de Brus, her eldest son by her first
husband, with regards to Cristina's dower rights [2]. Interesting as
this document is, it provides no further evidence concerning her
parentage.
Andrew B. W. MacEwen, the noted Scots genealogist, published an
article in The Genealogist in 2003 which resolved this deficiency. In
that article, Mr. MacEwen identified Cristina as a daughter of Walter
fitz Alan (d. 1177), the first Steward of Scotland of that family [3].
While this does not directly impact the ancestry of the Earls of Dunbar,
as Earl Patrick's issue were by his 1st wife, it does bear on the
ancestry of the Bruce Lords of Annandale, subsequently Earls of Carrick
and Kings of Scots: a great many individuals (including most, if not
all, of the Royal Houses of Europe) have ancestry impacted by this
discovery.
Cheers,
John *
NOTES
[1] CP IV:505, sub _Dunbar_ .
[2] An agreement between Robert de Brus and Patrick, earl of Dunbar and
C. the countess, records that Patrick was to retain one third of the
market of Hartlepool, co. Durham (Calendar of Documents Relating to
Scotland, i, 1108–1272, p. 123, no. 700). '
' #700. Nov. 11, 1218.
Agreement made at the Feast of St. Martin in the year of the Incarnation
1218. between P[atric] earl of Dunbar, and C[hristina?] the countess,
and Sir R[obert] de Brys; viz., the earl and Countess have demised to
Sir Robert all the land they have in Hertnissa (Hertness), viz., of the
countess dower, for the term of eight years, for £36 of silver, and 6s.
yearly, one moiety at Pentecost and the other at Martinmas; saving the
third part of the market and fair of Hertpulle (Hartlepool), to the earl
and Countess, if they and the said Robert can acquire these. And it is
to be observed that Sir Robert shall pay the money to the said earl and
his mother C. the Countess, so long as they shall warrant the said land
to him. Also the said Sir Robert shall not demise the said land for
eight years in such mode as he received it from his grandfather (avi).
His pledges are:--- Humphrey de Cardino (Jardine), Hugh de Corri,
William de Heriz, Robert de Crossebi, Richard de Bosco, G. son of John
(Johnston), Robert de Tremor. [Duchy of Lancaster, Cartae Miscellanae,
Vol. III, p.12].'
[3] Andrew B. W. MacEwen, SEVEN SCOTTISH COUNTESSES: A MISCELLANY, III.
Cristina de Brus, Countess of Dunbar: The Genealogist, Fall 2003 (Volume 17, No.
2), pp. 223-233
* John P. Ravilious
-
Alex Maxwell Findlater
Re: CP Correction: Cristina, 2nd wife of Patrick, Earl of Du
I have her as follows;
Eschyne de Molle, dau of Thomas de lundins
grand dau (mat) of Uhtred de Molle
sister of Malcolm, 1st Doorward of Scotland
widow of Robert le Croc, Snr
Please would you quote the evidence for Uchtred being her grandfather.
I am interested in this little group and haven't come across that
evidence yet.