Longespee Relative

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Longespee Relative

Legg inn av Gjest » 29 okt 2004 22:31:25

Dear list,

Given the long discussion on the meaning 'Relative,' which I must admit I
have not followed every posting, I presume that by now some conclusion must have
been reached on its medieval meaning. However I have not seen any mention of
the term as it appeared in the posting by Linda Jake in respect of the 1295
Will of Nicholas Longespee/Longesword bishop of Salisbury.

'I bequeathe to Thomas son of Gilbert (Malmains? ) my relative, 10 marks'

I presume (Malmains? ) means that the surname was difficult to transcribe,
but looked like Malmains.

As it would seem that Nicholas had no wife, this Thomas and Gilbert would
either be an illegitimate connection (relative) to Nicholas or in the Longespee
tree, but I can not find any candidates for them in the copious postings on the
Longespee family

Any ideas

Adrian

Nathaniel Taylor

Re: Longespee Relative [Gilbert ?Malmains]

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 30 okt 2004 03:12:07

In article <15.36973e95.2eb3e67b@aol.com>, ADRIANCHANNING@aol.com
wrote:

Given the long discussion on the meaning 'Relative,' which I must admit I
have not followed every posting, I presume that by now some conclusion must
have been reached on its medieval meaning. However I have not seen any mention of
the term as it appeared in the posting by Linda Jake in respect of the 1295
Will of Nicholas Longespee/Longesword bishop of Salisbury.

'I bequeathe to Thomas son of Gilbert (Malmains? ) my relative, 10 marks'

I presume (Malmains? ) means that the surname was difficult to transcribe,
but looked like Malmains.

'Malmains' actually doesn't appear in the printed Latin text from which
this translation was drawn (A. R. Malden, "The Will of Nicholas
Longespee, Bishop of Salisbury," English Historical Review 15 [1900],
523-38). There the clause is simply:

.... Lego Thome filio Gilberti consanguineo meo decem marcas....

So the insertion was a tentative suggestion of the translator? Linda
Jack said the translation was done by Carolline White of 'Oxford Latin',
a professional Latin translation service.

Linda, was this an editorial insertion by Ms. White, or by you,
tentatively identifying the Thomas, son of Gilbert, who is the legatee?

As it would seem that Nicholas had no wife, this Thomas and Gilbert would
either be an illegitimate connection (relative) to Nicholas or in the
Longespee tree, but I can not find any candidates for them in the copious postings on
the Longespee family

Any ideas

The term 'consanguineus' is a good choice for generic 'relative':
literally one who shares blood. But a 'consanguineus' is not
necessarily in the same agnatic lineage, so the next place to look is
via Nicholas' mother. You and Rosie participated in a thread in 2002 on
Nicholas Longespee's maternal grandmother, Eleanor de Vitre, who had
four husbands, including (an obviously earlier) Gilbert Malmains who d.
1217. By one reconstruction posted then by Rosie --

http://tinyurl.com/5dbcy

-- Eleanor de Vitre had issue by two other husbands as well (in addition
to William Fitzpatrick, by whom she had Ela, heiress of Salisbury). Now
it gets confusing: Even if Eleanor de Vitre had no issue by Gilbert
Malmains, her last husband; she did have Malmains descendants, through
the marriage of her stepson, Thomas Malmains, to her daughter Joan de
Tilleres (by her earlier husband Gilbert de Tilleres). Rosie's sketch
stops with the second generation, so I don't know whether there is a
definite placement for a Thomas, son of Gilbert, a couple of generations
down this line, which would be perfectly appropriate as cousins (of the
half-blood) to bishop Nicholse. Perhaps this is covered amply somewhere?

Nat Taylor

a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/

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