Question: Was "Cristobal Colon" Genovese?
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Esteban Trento
Question: Was "Cristobal Colon" Genovese?
It is usually said that Cristobal Colón, the discoverer of the
Americas, was Christophoro Colombo, a Genovese. But many said Colon
was Galician, Catolonian, Aragonese, Majorcan, Portuguese, etc. Are
there genealogical/historical probes for or against these positions?
Regards,
Esteban
Americas, was Christophoro Colombo, a Genovese. But many said Colon
was Galician, Catolonian, Aragonese, Majorcan, Portuguese, etc. Are
there genealogical/historical probes for or against these positions?
Regards,
Esteban
-
Ronald Di Iorio
Re: Question: Was "Cristobal Colon" Genovese?
Esteban
Salvador de Madariaga in his biography of Columbus
puts forth very convincing arguments that the Colón
family was of converso, i.e., Jewish origin.
However, an acquaintance of mine told me that there
had been a recent DNA analysis performed on remains of
Christopher's brother Bartolomeo that failed to yield
the necessary genetic markers to prove Jewish origin,
but he did not have details. Anyone know anthing
about this? Thanks in advance.
Ronald Di Iorio
--- Esteban Trento <fliatrento@yahoo.com.ar> wrote:
__________________________________
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Salvador de Madariaga in his biography of Columbus
puts forth very convincing arguments that the Colón
family was of converso, i.e., Jewish origin.
However, an acquaintance of mine told me that there
had been a recent DNA analysis performed on remains of
Christopher's brother Bartolomeo that failed to yield
the necessary genetic markers to prove Jewish origin,
but he did not have details. Anyone know anthing
about this? Thanks in advance.
Ronald Di Iorio
--- Esteban Trento <fliatrento@yahoo.com.ar> wrote:
It is usually said that Cristobal Colón, the
discoverer of the
Americas, was Christophoro Colombo, a Genovese. But
many said Colon
was Galician, Catolonian, Aragonese, Majorcan,
Portuguese, etc. Are
there genealogical/historical probes for or against
these positions?
Regards,
Esteban
__________________________________
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-
Gjest
Re: Question: Was "Cristobal Colon" Genovese?
Dear Ronald,
Any possibility re: mitochondrial DNA? Given that post-Biblical Jewish
'identity' is in theory a matter of maternal descent, this could be another
avenue.
Also, there are (or recently were) modern descendants of Christopher C.
himself - I recall a Spanish officer recently (10 years ago or so, which
counts as recent on SGM) killed in a Basque terrorist attack, whose descent was
*supposedly* authentic. I'm certain there must be others, although volunteering
one's DNA may not result in a discovery their family would approve, or require.
Cheers,
John
Any possibility re: mitochondrial DNA? Given that post-Biblical Jewish
'identity' is in theory a matter of maternal descent, this could be another
avenue.
Also, there are (or recently were) modern descendants of Christopher C.
himself - I recall a Spanish officer recently (10 years ago or so, which
counts as recent on SGM) killed in a Basque terrorist attack, whose descent was
*supposedly* authentic. I'm certain there must be others, although volunteering
one's DNA may not result in a discovery their family would approve, or require.
Cheers,
John
-
Francisco Antonio Doria
Re: Question: Was "Cristobal Colon" Genovese?
There is a 1496 document (I can give the exact
reference) in the Archivio di Stato di Genova where
Matteo Colombo and brothers agree to pay for the
travel of one of them to Spain to visit the Admiral
their fisrt cousin.
Matteo Colombo was the owner of a tavern who worked
for Antonio Gallo, author of the first biography of
Colombo.
I'm not mentioning the well-known Assereto document of
1479, 25 August, a deposition by Cristoforo Colombo,
Genoese, recently arrived from Lisbon and departing
the next day to the Madeira, in the presence of
Lodisio Centurione Scotto about a debt to the said
Centurione - which is again referred to in the
Admiral's will.
Ah, before I forget: Colombo's coat of arms quarters
of Castille, Léon, the Antilles and the Admiral's
anchors, with - I'm going to use French for that - an
`enté en pointe' with the Colombo Genoese arms.
For me, that's convincing.
fa
--- Ronald Di Iorio <medgen2249@yahoo.com> escreveu:
_______________________________________________________
Yahoo! Acesso Grátis - Internet rápida e grátis. Instale o discador agora! http://br.acesso.yahoo.com/
reference) in the Archivio di Stato di Genova where
Matteo Colombo and brothers agree to pay for the
travel of one of them to Spain to visit the Admiral
their fisrt cousin.
Matteo Colombo was the owner of a tavern who worked
for Antonio Gallo, author of the first biography of
Colombo.
I'm not mentioning the well-known Assereto document of
1479, 25 August, a deposition by Cristoforo Colombo,
Genoese, recently arrived from Lisbon and departing
the next day to the Madeira, in the presence of
Lodisio Centurione Scotto about a debt to the said
Centurione - which is again referred to in the
Admiral's will.
Ah, before I forget: Colombo's coat of arms quarters
of Castille, Léon, the Antilles and the Admiral's
anchors, with - I'm going to use French for that - an
`enté en pointe' with the Colombo Genoese arms.
For me, that's convincing.
fa
--- Ronald Di Iorio <medgen2249@yahoo.com> escreveu:
Esteban
Salvador de Madariaga in his biography of Columbus
puts forth very convincing arguments that the Colón
family was of converso, i.e., Jewish origin.
However, an acquaintance of mine told me that there
had been a recent DNA analysis performed on remains
of
Christopher's brother Bartolomeo that failed to
yield
the necessary genetic markers to prove Jewish
origin,
but he did not have details. Anyone know anthing
about this? Thanks in advance.
Ronald Di Iorio
--- Esteban Trento <fliatrento@yahoo.com.ar> wrote:
It is usually said that Cristobal Colón, the
discoverer of the
Americas, was Christophoro Colombo, a Genovese.
But
many said Colon
was Galician, Catolonian, Aragonese, Majorcan,
Portuguese, etc. Are
there genealogical/historical probes for or
against
these positions?
Regards,
Esteban
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We
finish.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
_______________________________________________________
Yahoo! Acesso Grátis - Internet rápida e grátis. Instale o discador agora! http://br.acesso.yahoo.com/
-
John Parsons
Re: Question: Was "Cristobal Colon" Genovese?
Two articles on the DNA search for Colon's remains and his final resting
place are on MSNBC news (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6228731/ is the latter
of these, updated on 11 October 2004). If you can't access it that way, go
to MSNBC News homepage, click "Tech/Science" on the left-hand column, and
then click "Genetic Genealogy" under "Top Sections."
According to the 11 October update, the government of the Dominican Republic
has refused to submit remains believed to be Colon's to DNA testing after
tests on bones in Seville, Spain, suggested but did not conclusively prove
that the Seville bones were those of a male related to Colon's son Hernando
and brother Diego. The Dominican Republic argues that the DNA tests in
Spain were inconclusive; that government prefers to wait until DNA
technology develops further before allowing the Santo Domingo bones to be
tested.
The article briefly traces the peregrinations of Colon's remains after his
death in 1506. In 1537 the widow of Colon's son sent Colon's bones to Santo
Domingo for burial in the cathedral. In 1795 the island of Hispaniola was
turned over to France, and the Spanish authorities took Colon's bones with
them. They went first to Havana and then, at the outbreak of the
Spanish-American war in 1898, to Seville.
In 1877 a lead box was found in Santo Domingo; its inscription identified
the bones within as those of Colon. Since then the Dominican Republic has
insisted that the Spaniards left with the wrong bones in 1795.
Leo van de Pas' Genealogics website details Colon's descendants.
John P.
place are on MSNBC news (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6228731/ is the latter
of these, updated on 11 October 2004). If you can't access it that way, go
to MSNBC News homepage, click "Tech/Science" on the left-hand column, and
then click "Genetic Genealogy" under "Top Sections."
According to the 11 October update, the government of the Dominican Republic
has refused to submit remains believed to be Colon's to DNA testing after
tests on bones in Seville, Spain, suggested but did not conclusively prove
that the Seville bones were those of a male related to Colon's son Hernando
and brother Diego. The Dominican Republic argues that the DNA tests in
Spain were inconclusive; that government prefers to wait until DNA
technology develops further before allowing the Santo Domingo bones to be
tested.
The article briefly traces the peregrinations of Colon's remains after his
death in 1506. In 1537 the widow of Colon's son sent Colon's bones to Santo
Domingo for burial in the cathedral. In 1795 the island of Hispaniola was
turned over to France, and the Spanish authorities took Colon's bones with
them. They went first to Havana and then, at the outbreak of the
Spanish-American war in 1898, to Seville.
In 1877 a lead box was found in Santo Domingo; its inscription identified
the bones within as those of Colon. Since then the Dominican Republic has
insisted that the Spaniards left with the wrong bones in 1795.
Leo van de Pas' Genealogics website details Colon's descendants.
John P.
From: Therav3@aol.com
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Question: Was "Cristobal Colon" Genovese?
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 10:21:06 EDT
Dear Ronald,
Any possibility re: mitochondrial DNA? Given that post-Biblical
Jewish
'identity' is in theory a matter of maternal descent, this could be another
avenue.
Also, there are (or recently were) modern descendants of Christopher
C.
himself - I recall a Spanish officer recently (10 years ago or so, which
counts as recent on SGM) killed in a Basque terrorist attack, whose descent
was
*supposedly* authentic. I'm certain there must be others, although
volunteering
one's DNA may not result in a discovery their family would approve, or
require.
Cheers,
John
-
Doug McDonald
Re: Question: Was "Cristobal Colon" Genovese?
John Parsons wrote:
This is a wise move. Testing of old remains for DNA is
improving rapidly.
Doug MCDonald
According to the 11 October update, the government of the Dominican
Republic has refused to submit remains believed to be Colon's to DNA
testing after tests on bones in Seville, Spain, suggested but did not
conclusively prove that the Seville bones were those of a male related
to Colon's son Hernando and brother Diego. The Dominican Republic
argues that the DNA tests in Spain were inconclusive; that government
prefers to wait until DNA technology develops further before allowing
the Santo Domingo bones to be tested.
This is a wise move. Testing of old remains for DNA is
improving rapidly.
Doug MCDonald
-
Steven C. Perkins
Re: Question: Was "Cristobal Colon" Genovese?
There was a recent television program on here in the USA on the Discovery
Channel that detailed an investigation on the purported Columbus bones.
http://dsc.discovery.com/convergence/co ... umbus.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/spain/article ... 90,00.html
The program concluded that the maternal haplogroup was "Caucasian" as
opposed to "Jewish", whatever that means, but it did not reveal the
actual haplogroup found. Y DNA was supposedly extracted from Hernando
Colon's remains. No haplotype or haplogroup was mentioned.
Other evidence was presented for a confusion of two men named Cristobal
Colon, and for the identification of the Admiral with the Colon from the
Catalan Colon family of Barcelona which had fought against the Spanish
King about 10 years prior to the voyage to America.
Just a few more data points.
Steven C. perkins
On 30 Oct 2004 at 11:27, Doug McDonald wrote:
Date forwarded: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 10:31:34 -0600
Date sent: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 11:27:13 -0500
Forwarded by: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
From: Doug McDonald <mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu>
Subject: Re: Question: Was "Cristobal Colon" Genovese?
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Organization: Usenet @ UIUC - http://www.killfile.org/usenet/
Channel that detailed an investigation on the purported Columbus bones.
http://dsc.discovery.com/convergence/co ... umbus.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/spain/article ... 90,00.html
The program concluded that the maternal haplogroup was "Caucasian" as
opposed to "Jewish", whatever that means, but it did not reveal the
actual haplogroup found. Y DNA was supposedly extracted from Hernando
Colon's remains. No haplotype or haplogroup was mentioned.
Other evidence was presented for a confusion of two men named Cristobal
Colon, and for the identification of the Admiral with the Colon from the
Catalan Colon family of Barcelona which had fought against the Spanish
King about 10 years prior to the voyage to America.
Just a few more data points.
Steven C. perkins
On 30 Oct 2004 at 11:27, Doug McDonald wrote:
Date forwarded: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 10:31:34 -0600
Date sent: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 11:27:13 -0500
Forwarded by: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
From: Doug McDonald <mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu>
Subject: Re: Question: Was "Cristobal Colon" Genovese?
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Organization: Usenet @ UIUC - http://www.killfile.org/usenet/
John Parsons wrote:
According to the 11 October update, the government of the Dominican
Republic has refused to submit remains believed to be Colon's to DNA
testing after tests on bones in Seville, Spain, suggested but did not
conclusively prove that the Seville bones were those of a male related
to Colon's son Hernando and brother Diego. The Dominican Republic
argues that the DNA tests in Spain were inconclusive; that government
prefers to wait until DNA technology develops further before allowing
the Santo Domingo bones to be tested.
This is a wise move. Testing of old remains for DNA is
improving rapidly.
Doug MCDonald
-
Ronald Di Iorio
Re: Question: Was "Cristobal Colon" Genovese?
Steven
Thank you for your reply and website references. This
is evidently the source of the information that was
relayed to me by my acquaintance, although I appear to
have mentioned the wrong Colón sibling as the provider
of the DNA.
Everything presented in the website basically concurs
with Madariaga's presentation, but does not go the one
extra step, i.e., identifying the Colón family as
ultimately being of Catalan Converso origin. As I
have stated, his arguments are very convincing and I
suggest that anyone interested in the subject read his
book.
However, I have one further question concerning the
suposed DNA testing results. You mention that it was
maternal DNA that was tested that showed "Caucasian"
rather than "Jewish" markers. However, if the Colón
family was Jewish/Converso through the male line, that
is, if Cristobal's mother's DNA was not Converso, are
we not testing the wrong DNA? I don't know much about
DNA testing, but this seems logical to me.
To cite a more current example, would John Kerry's
maternal DNA show a "Jewish" haplogroup. I doubt it,
as she was not Jewish, yet as has been discussed here
before, his paternal grandfather was an Austrian born
Jew who converted before emigrating to the USA. And
while Kerry, not having been born of a Jewish womb
would not qualify as a Jew under strict Talmudic
interpretations, as I understand them, to deny that he
has Jewish ancestry would be absurd.
Might not the situation with Colón be similar,
depending on when the conversion took place?
Thanks in advance for any thoughts or further
information anyone may have on the subject.
Ronald Di Iorio
--- "Steven C. Perkins" <SPerkins@interaccess.com>
wrote:
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
Thank you for your reply and website references. This
is evidently the source of the information that was
relayed to me by my acquaintance, although I appear to
have mentioned the wrong Colón sibling as the provider
of the DNA.
Everything presented in the website basically concurs
with Madariaga's presentation, but does not go the one
extra step, i.e., identifying the Colón family as
ultimately being of Catalan Converso origin. As I
have stated, his arguments are very convincing and I
suggest that anyone interested in the subject read his
book.
However, I have one further question concerning the
suposed DNA testing results. You mention that it was
maternal DNA that was tested that showed "Caucasian"
rather than "Jewish" markers. However, if the Colón
family was Jewish/Converso through the male line, that
is, if Cristobal's mother's DNA was not Converso, are
we not testing the wrong DNA? I don't know much about
DNA testing, but this seems logical to me.
To cite a more current example, would John Kerry's
maternal DNA show a "Jewish" haplogroup. I doubt it,
as she was not Jewish, yet as has been discussed here
before, his paternal grandfather was an Austrian born
Jew who converted before emigrating to the USA. And
while Kerry, not having been born of a Jewish womb
would not qualify as a Jew under strict Talmudic
interpretations, as I understand them, to deny that he
has Jewish ancestry would be absurd.
Might not the situation with Colón be similar,
depending on when the conversion took place?
Thanks in advance for any thoughts or further
information anyone may have on the subject.
Ronald Di Iorio
--- "Steven C. Perkins" <SPerkins@interaccess.com>
wrote:
There was a recent television program on here in the
USA on the Discovery
Channel that detailed an investigation on the
purported Columbus bones.
http://dsc.discovery.com/convergence/co ... umbus.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/spain/article ... 90,00.html
The program concluded that the maternal haplogroup
was "Caucasian" as
opposed to "Jewish", whatever that means, but it did
not reveal the
actual haplogroup found. Y DNA was supposedly
extracted from Hernando
Colon's remains. No haplotype or haplogroup was
mentioned.
Other evidence was presented for a confusion of two
men named Cristobal
Colon, and for the identification of the Admiral
with the Colon from the
Catalan Colon family of Barcelona which had fought
against the Spanish
King about 10 years prior to the voyage to America.
Just a few more data points.
Steven C. perkins
On 30 Oct 2004 at 11:27, Doug McDonald wrote:
Date forwarded: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 10:31:34 -0600
Date sent: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 11:27:13 -0500
Forwarded by: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
From: Doug McDonald
mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: Question: Was "Cristobal Colon"
Genovese?
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Organization: Usenet @ UIUC -
http://www.killfile.org/usenet/
John Parsons wrote:
According to the 11 October update, the
government of the Dominican
Republic has refused to submit remains believed
to be Colon's to DNA
testing after tests on bones in Seville, Spain,
suggested but did not
conclusively prove that the Seville bones were
those of a male related
to Colon's son Hernando and brother Diego. The
Dominican Republic
argues that the DNA tests in Spain were
inconclusive; that government
prefers to wait until DNA technology develops
further before allowing
the Santo Domingo bones to be tested.
This is a wise move. Testing of old remains for
DNA is
improving rapidly.
Doug MCDonald
__________________________________
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Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
-
Francisco Antonio Doria
Re: Question: Was "Cristobal Colon" Genovese?
Let me say that I've watched the tv documentary. It
has many flaws, from the historical & genealogical
viewpoint.
- A Genoese Cristoforo Colombo is ***actually
documented*** in the Madeira (with trips to Genoa)
from 1478 to 1479, possibly 1480.
The people with whom this sailor-merchant Colombo
dealt with in Genoa in 1479 appear in the Admiral's
own will of 1503.
- Filipa Moniz (that's her name), the Admiral's wife,
was ***not*** of high-ranking nobility. She married at
the same level as her own full sisters, who also
married foreign merchants. Her older half-sisters
married Portuguese noblemen, which has led many people
to conjecture that Isabel Moniz and Bartolomeu
Perestrello hadn't been married - an irrelevancy btw,
from the Portuguese viewpoint.
(I'm descended from two of the elder sisters.)
I suspect that this Aragonese `Colón' - the pirate -
is undocumented.
fa
--- Ronald Di Iorio <medgen2249@yahoo.com> escreveu:
_______________________________________________________
Yahoo! Acesso Grátis - Internet rápida e grátis. Instale o discador agora! http://br.acesso.yahoo.com/
has many flaws, from the historical & genealogical
viewpoint.
- A Genoese Cristoforo Colombo is ***actually
documented*** in the Madeira (with trips to Genoa)
from 1478 to 1479, possibly 1480.
The people with whom this sailor-merchant Colombo
dealt with in Genoa in 1479 appear in the Admiral's
own will of 1503.
- Filipa Moniz (that's her name), the Admiral's wife,
was ***not*** of high-ranking nobility. She married at
the same level as her own full sisters, who also
married foreign merchants. Her older half-sisters
married Portuguese noblemen, which has led many people
to conjecture that Isabel Moniz and Bartolomeu
Perestrello hadn't been married - an irrelevancy btw,
from the Portuguese viewpoint.
(I'm descended from two of the elder sisters.)
I suspect that this Aragonese `Colón' - the pirate -
is undocumented.
fa
--- Ronald Di Iorio <medgen2249@yahoo.com> escreveu:
Steven
Thank you for your reply and website references.
This
is evidently the source of the information that was
relayed to me by my acquaintance, although I appear
to
have mentioned the wrong Colón sibling as the
provider
of the DNA.
Everything presented in the website basically
concurs
with Madariaga's presentation, but does not go the
one
extra step, i.e., identifying the Colón family as
ultimately being of Catalan Converso origin. As I
have stated, his arguments are very convincing and I
suggest that anyone interested in the subject read
his
book.
However, I have one further question concerning the
suposed DNA testing results. You mention that it
was
maternal DNA that was tested that showed "Caucasian"
rather than "Jewish" markers. However, if the Colón
family was Jewish/Converso through the male line,
that
is, if Cristobal's mother's DNA was not Converso,
are
we not testing the wrong DNA? I don't know much
about
DNA testing, but this seems logical to me.
To cite a more current example, would John Kerry's
maternal DNA show a "Jewish" haplogroup. I doubt
it,
as she was not Jewish, yet as has been discussed
here
before, his paternal grandfather was an Austrian
born
Jew who converted before emigrating to the USA. And
while Kerry, not having been born of a Jewish womb
would not qualify as a Jew under strict Talmudic
interpretations, as I understand them, to deny that
he
has Jewish ancestry would be absurd.
Might not the situation with Colón be similar,
depending on when the conversion took place?
Thanks in advance for any thoughts or further
information anyone may have on the subject.
Ronald Di Iorio
--- "Steven C. Perkins" <SPerkins@interaccess.com
wrote:
There was a recent television program on here in
the
USA on the Discovery
Channel that detailed an investigation on the
purported Columbus bones.
http://dsc.discovery.com/convergence/co ... umbus.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/spain/article ... 90,00.html
The program concluded that the maternal haplogroup
was "Caucasian" as
opposed to "Jewish", whatever that means, but it
did
not reveal the
actual haplogroup found. Y DNA was supposedly
extracted from Hernando
Colon's remains. No haplotype or haplogroup was
mentioned.
Other evidence was presented for a confusion of
two
men named Cristobal
Colon, and for the identification of the Admiral
with the Colon from the
Catalan Colon family of Barcelona which had fought
against the Spanish
King about 10 years prior to the voyage to
America.
Just a few more data points.
Steven C. perkins
On 30 Oct 2004 at 11:27, Doug McDonald wrote:
Date forwarded: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 10:31:34 -0600
Date sent: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 11:27:13 -0500
Forwarded by: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
From: Doug McDonald
mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: Question: Was "Cristobal
Colon"
Genovese?
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Organization: Usenet @ UIUC -
http://www.killfile.org/usenet/
John Parsons wrote:
According to the 11 October update, the
government of the Dominican
Republic has refused to submit remains
believed
to be Colon's to DNA
testing after tests on bones in Seville,
Spain,
suggested but did not
conclusively prove that the Seville bones were
those of a male related
to Colon's son Hernando and brother Diego.
The
Dominican Republic
argues that the DNA tests in Spain were
inconclusive; that government
prefers to wait until DNA technology develops
further before allowing
the Santo Domingo bones to be tested.
This is a wise move. Testing of old remains for
DNA is
improving rapidly.
Doug MCDonald
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We
finish.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
_______________________________________________________
Yahoo! Acesso Grátis - Internet rápida e grátis. Instale o discador agora! http://br.acesso.yahoo.com/
-
Bronwen Edwards
Re: Question: Was "Cristobal Colon" Genovese?
Therav3@aol.com wrote in message news:<1ec.2c842fd6.2eb4fd52@aol.com>...
I don't know if this was the same person mentioned above, but in 1992
a direct descendant with the surname Colon led a large quintennial
parade in the US. I don't remember if he lived in the US or not.
Bronwen
Also, there are (or recently were) modern descendants of Christopher C.
himself - I recall a Spanish officer recently (10 years ago or so, which
counts as recent on SGM) killed in a Basque terrorist attack, whose descent was
*supposedly* authentic. I'm certain there must be others, although volunteering
one's DNA may not result in a discovery their family would approve, or require.
I don't know if this was the same person mentioned above, but in 1992
a direct descendant with the surname Colon led a large quintennial
parade in the US. I don't remember if he lived in the US or not.
Bronwen
-
Esteban Trento
Re: Question: Was "Cristobal Colon" Genovese?
franciscoantoniodoria@yahoo.com.br (Francisco Antonio Doria) wrote in message news:<20041031215508.55674.qmail@web41711.mail.yahoo.com>...
In the same Discovery program they also said that Colon (Colombo?)
wrote to his brothers in Spanish (Castilian), not Italian (I guess
they should be referring to Genoese, not Tuscan).
I've seen in an old History book, Colon's signature, it says
Cristoferens with some strange symbols/letters.
For me it's all very intriguing. Thanks for all your posts.
Regards,
Esteban
Let me say that I've watched the tv documentary. It
has many flaws, from the historical & genealogical
viewpoint.
- A Genoese Cristoforo Colombo is ***actually
documented*** in the Madeira (with trips to Genoa)
from 1478 to 1479, possibly 1480.
The people with whom this sailor-merchant Colombo
dealt with in Genoa in 1479 appear in the Admiral's
own will of 1503.
- Filipa Moniz (that's her name), the Admiral's wife,
was ***not*** of high-ranking nobility. She married at
the same level as her own full sisters, who also
married foreign merchants. Her older half-sisters
married Portuguese noblemen, which has led many people
to conjecture that Isabel Moniz and Bartolomeu
Perestrello hadn't been married - an irrelevancy btw,
from the Portuguese viewpoint.
(I'm descended from two of the elder sisters.)
I suspect that this Aragonese `Colón' - the pirate -
is undocumented.
fa
In the same Discovery program they also said that Colon (Colombo?)
wrote to his brothers in Spanish (Castilian), not Italian (I guess
they should be referring to Genoese, not Tuscan).
I've seen in an old History book, Colon's signature, it says
Cristoferens with some strange symbols/letters.
For me it's all very intriguing. Thanks for all your posts.
Regards,
Esteban
-
Ronald Di Iorio
Re: Question: Was "Cristobal Colon" Genovese?
Sir
You say you are descended from "two of the elder
sisters" of Filipa Moniz Perestrello. I assume you are
speaking of the half-sisters of Filipa by the first
wife of Bartolomeu Perestrello, who I believe was
Brites Furtado de Mendonca. I have also seen a
reference that she may be in fact a second wife and
that Bartolomeu had a first wife named Margarita
Martins, which would make Isabel Moniz actually a
third rather than a second wife.
So then, I am curious, what exactly is your line? And
while I find this of interest, I still do not see what
the ancestry of Colón's wife, Filipa, has to do with
Colón's ancestry and whether his family was or was not
of Converso origin.
And that, I believe, is the main point of this thread:
what were the ancestral origins of Colón's family?
No one is disputing ties of various sorts to Genoa,
but whether the family was ultimately of Genoese
origin.
Respectfully
Ronald Di Iorio
Ronald Di Iorio
--- Francisco Antonio Doria
<franciscoantoniodoria@yahoo.com.br> wrote:
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
You say you are descended from "two of the elder
sisters" of Filipa Moniz Perestrello. I assume you are
speaking of the half-sisters of Filipa by the first
wife of Bartolomeu Perestrello, who I believe was
Brites Furtado de Mendonca. I have also seen a
reference that she may be in fact a second wife and
that Bartolomeu had a first wife named Margarita
Martins, which would make Isabel Moniz actually a
third rather than a second wife.
So then, I am curious, what exactly is your line? And
while I find this of interest, I still do not see what
the ancestry of Colón's wife, Filipa, has to do with
Colón's ancestry and whether his family was or was not
of Converso origin.
And that, I believe, is the main point of this thread:
what were the ancestral origins of Colón's family?
No one is disputing ties of various sorts to Genoa,
but whether the family was ultimately of Genoese
origin.
Respectfully
Ronald Di Iorio
Ronald Di Iorio
--- Francisco Antonio Doria
<franciscoantoniodoria@yahoo.com.br> wrote:
Let me say that I've watched the tv documentary. It
has many flaws, from the historical & genealogical
viewpoint.
- A Genoese Cristoforo Colombo is ***actually
documented*** in the Madeira (with trips to Genoa)
from 1478 to 1479, possibly 1480.
The people with whom this sailor-merchant Colombo
dealt with in Genoa in 1479 appear in the Admiral's
own will of 1503.
- Filipa Moniz (that's her name), the Admiral's
wife,
was ***not*** of high-ranking nobility. She married
at
the same level as her own full sisters, who also
married foreign merchants. Her older half-sisters
married Portuguese noblemen, which has led many
people
to conjecture that Isabel Moniz and Bartolomeu
Perestrello hadn't been married - an irrelevancy
btw,
from the Portuguese viewpoint.
(I'm descended from two of the elder sisters.)
I suspect that this Aragonese `Colón' - the pirate -
is undocumented.
fa
--- Ronald Di Iorio <medgen2249@yahoo.com
escreveu:
Steven
Thank you for your reply and website references.
This
is evidently the source of the information that
was
relayed to me by my acquaintance, although I
appear
to
have mentioned the wrong Colón sibling as the
provider
of the DNA.
Everything presented in the website basically
concurs
with Madariaga's presentation, but does not go the
one
extra step, i.e., identifying the Colón family as
ultimately being of Catalan Converso origin. As I
have stated, his arguments are very convincing and
I
suggest that anyone interested in the subject read
his
book.
However, I have one further question concerning
the
suposed DNA testing results. You mention that it
was
maternal DNA that was tested that showed
"Caucasian"
rather than "Jewish" markers. However, if the
Colón
family was Jewish/Converso through the male line,
that
is, if Cristobal's mother's DNA was not Converso,
are
we not testing the wrong DNA? I don't know much
about
DNA testing, but this seems logical to me.
To cite a more current example, would John Kerry's
maternal DNA show a "Jewish" haplogroup. I doubt
it,
as she was not Jewish, yet as has been discussed
here
before, his paternal grandfather was an Austrian
born
Jew who converted before emigrating to the USA.
And
while Kerry, not having been born of a Jewish womb
would not qualify as a Jew under strict Talmudic
interpretations, as I understand them, to deny
that
he
has Jewish ancestry would be absurd.
Might not the situation with Colón be similar,
depending on when the conversion took place?
Thanks in advance for any thoughts or further
information anyone may have on the subject.
Ronald Di Iorio
--- "Steven C. Perkins" <SPerkins@interaccess.com
wrote:
There was a recent television program on here in
the
USA on the Discovery
Channel that detailed an investigation on the
purported Columbus bones.
http://dsc.discovery.com/convergence/co ... umbus.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/spain/article ... 90,00.html
The program concluded that the maternal
haplogroup
was "Caucasian" as
opposed to "Jewish", whatever that means, but it
did
not reveal the
actual haplogroup found. Y DNA was supposedly
extracted from Hernando
Colon's remains. No haplotype or haplogroup was
mentioned.
Other evidence was presented for a confusion of
two
men named Cristobal
Colon, and for the identification of the Admiral
with the Colon from the
Catalan Colon family of Barcelona which had
fought
against the Spanish
King about 10 years prior to the voyage to
America.
Just a few more data points.
Steven C. perkins
On 30 Oct 2004 at 11:27, Doug McDonald wrote:
Date forwarded: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 10:31:34 -0600
Date sent: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 11:27:13 -0500
Forwarded by: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
From: Doug McDonald
mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: Question: Was "Cristobal
Colon"
Genovese?
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Organization: Usenet @ UIUC -
http://www.killfile.org/usenet/
John Parsons wrote:
According to the 11 October update, the
government of the Dominican
Republic has refused to submit remains
believed
to be Colon's to DNA
testing after tests on bones in Seville,
Spain,
suggested but did not
conclusively prove that the Seville bones
were
those of a male related
to Colon's son Hernando and brother Diego.
The
Dominican Republic
argues that the DNA tests in Spain were
inconclusive; that government
prefers to wait until DNA technology
develops
further before allowing
the Santo Domingo bones to be tested.
This is a wise move. Testing of old remains
for
DNA is
improving rapidly.
Doug MCDonald
__________________________________
=== message truncated ===
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
-
Francisco Antonio Doria
Re: Question: Was "Cristobal Colon" Genovese?
Dear Ronald,
Let me tell you why I am sure that Columbus was
Genoese, and had no close Jewish ancestors - if any,
perhaps around the 12th century, due to the small
migratory movement from the Rhineland.
Reason is in those documents I quoted. They
conclusively show that there was a Cristoforo Colombo,
sailor and merchant, from Genoa, and with dealings in
Lisbon and in the Madeira. As I said, people referred
to by this individual in 1479 appear in the same-named
Admiral's will in 1503.
The Discovery Channel messed up lots of things. The
Perestrello/Palastrelli family has a well-known and
much studied genealogy - one of the best known
Portuguese genealogists of today is Lourenço
Perestrello Correa de Mattos, who is descended from
them; Manuel Abranches de Soveral also did a great
deal of research on the early Perestrellos, due to
their historical import. They were definitely very
low-ranking noblemen, and the marriage of Catarina (or
Brites) and Izeu Perestrello to Pero Correia, lord of
Graciosa, and to Mem Roiz de Vasconcellos, both of
very old stock, was a political deal by D. Henrique
``the Navigator,'' and was intended to elevate the
Perestrellos' rank - as the similar marriage of the
daughters of João Gonçalves Zarco to younger sons of
old families, one of them Martim Mendes de
Vasconcellos, brother to Mem Roiz.
I can sketch my line - it's no privilege, as millions
of people in my country share it with me. Basically,
Luisa de Mello de Vasconcellos, a ggdaughter of both
Mem Roiz de Vasconcellos and Pero Correia, settled in
Brazil in 1549 and married there Antonio de Oliveira
Carvalha. Both my wife and myself are descended from
his son Paulo de Carvalhal de Vasconcellos, who was
beheaded in 1614 due to a heinous crime. I'm descended
from his son Bartolomeu de Vasconcellos ``má pele''
(the one with the bad skin), whose 3gdaughter was my
own 5th gmother Dona Antonia Luisa de Vasconcellos
Doria (1745-1825), married to kinsman Cristóvão da
Costa Doria Barbosa (1730-1809).
fa
--- Ronald Di Iorio <medgen2249@yahoo.com> escreveu:
_______________________________________________________
Yahoo! Acesso Grátis - Internet rápida e grátis. Instale o discador agora! http://br.acesso.yahoo.com/
Let me tell you why I am sure that Columbus was
Genoese, and had no close Jewish ancestors - if any,
perhaps around the 12th century, due to the small
migratory movement from the Rhineland.
Reason is in those documents I quoted. They
conclusively show that there was a Cristoforo Colombo,
sailor and merchant, from Genoa, and with dealings in
Lisbon and in the Madeira. As I said, people referred
to by this individual in 1479 appear in the same-named
Admiral's will in 1503.
The Discovery Channel messed up lots of things. The
Perestrello/Palastrelli family has a well-known and
much studied genealogy - one of the best known
Portuguese genealogists of today is Lourenço
Perestrello Correa de Mattos, who is descended from
them; Manuel Abranches de Soveral also did a great
deal of research on the early Perestrellos, due to
their historical import. They were definitely very
low-ranking noblemen, and the marriage of Catarina (or
Brites) and Izeu Perestrello to Pero Correia, lord of
Graciosa, and to Mem Roiz de Vasconcellos, both of
very old stock, was a political deal by D. Henrique
``the Navigator,'' and was intended to elevate the
Perestrellos' rank - as the similar marriage of the
daughters of João Gonçalves Zarco to younger sons of
old families, one of them Martim Mendes de
Vasconcellos, brother to Mem Roiz.
I can sketch my line - it's no privilege, as millions
of people in my country share it with me. Basically,
Luisa de Mello de Vasconcellos, a ggdaughter of both
Mem Roiz de Vasconcellos and Pero Correia, settled in
Brazil in 1549 and married there Antonio de Oliveira
Carvalha. Both my wife and myself are descended from
his son Paulo de Carvalhal de Vasconcellos, who was
beheaded in 1614 due to a heinous crime. I'm descended
from his son Bartolomeu de Vasconcellos ``má pele''
(the one with the bad skin), whose 3gdaughter was my
own 5th gmother Dona Antonia Luisa de Vasconcellos
Doria (1745-1825), married to kinsman Cristóvão da
Costa Doria Barbosa (1730-1809).
fa
--- Ronald Di Iorio <medgen2249@yahoo.com> escreveu:
Sir
You say you are descended from "two of the elder
sisters" of Filipa Moniz Perestrello. I assume you
are
speaking of the half-sisters of Filipa by the first
wife of Bartolomeu Perestrello, who I believe was
Brites Furtado de Mendonca. I have also seen a
reference that she may be in fact a second wife and
that Bartolomeu had a first wife named Margarita
Martins, which would make Isabel Moniz actually a
third rather than a second wife.
So then, I am curious, what exactly is your line?
And
while I find this of interest, I still do not see
what
the ancestry of Colón's wife, Filipa, has to do with
Colón's ancestry and whether his family was or was
not
of Converso origin.
And that, I believe, is the main point of this
thread:
what were the ancestral origins of Colón's family?
No one is disputing ties of various sorts to Genoa,
but whether the family was ultimately of Genoese
origin.
Respectfully
Ronald Di Iorio
Ronald Di Iorio
--- Francisco Antonio Doria
franciscoantoniodoria@yahoo.com.br> wrote:
Let me say that I've watched the tv documentary.
It
has many flaws, from the historical & genealogical
viewpoint.
- A Genoese Cristoforo Colombo is ***actually
documented*** in the Madeira (with trips to Genoa)
from 1478 to 1479, possibly 1480.
The people with whom this sailor-merchant Colombo
dealt with in Genoa in 1479 appear in the
Admiral's
own will of 1503.
- Filipa Moniz (that's her name), the Admiral's
wife,
was ***not*** of high-ranking nobility. She
married
at
the same level as her own full sisters, who also
married foreign merchants. Her older half-sisters
married Portuguese noblemen, which has led many
people
to conjecture that Isabel Moniz and Bartolomeu
Perestrello hadn't been married - an irrelevancy
btw,
from the Portuguese viewpoint.
(I'm descended from two of the elder sisters.)
I suspect that this Aragonese `Colón' - the pirate
-
is undocumented.
fa
--- Ronald Di Iorio <medgen2249@yahoo.com
escreveu:
Steven
Thank you for your reply and website references.
This
is evidently the source of the information that
was
relayed to me by my acquaintance, although I
appear
to
have mentioned the wrong Colón sibling as the
provider
of the DNA.
Everything presented in the website basically
concurs
with Madariaga's presentation, but does not go
the
one
extra step, i.e., identifying the Colón family
as
ultimately being of Catalan Converso origin. As
I
have stated, his arguments are very convincing
and
I
suggest that anyone interested in the subject
read
his
book.
However, I have one further question concerning
the
suposed DNA testing results. You mention that
it
was
maternal DNA that was tested that showed
"Caucasian"
rather than "Jewish" markers. However, if the
Colón
family was Jewish/Converso through the male
line,
that
is, if Cristobal's mother's DNA was not
Converso,
are
we not testing the wrong DNA? I don't know much
about
DNA testing, but this seems logical to me.
To cite a more current example, would John
Kerry's
maternal DNA show a "Jewish" haplogroup. I
doubt
it,
as she was not Jewish, yet as has been discussed
here
before, his paternal grandfather was an Austrian
born
Jew who converted before emigrating to the USA.
And
while Kerry, not having been born of a Jewish
womb
would not qualify as a Jew under strict Talmudic
interpretations, as I understand them, to deny
that
he
has Jewish ancestry would be absurd.
Might not the situation with Colón be similar,
depending on when the conversion took place?
Thanks in advance for any thoughts or further
information anyone may have on the subject.
Ronald Di Iorio
--- "Steven C. Perkins"
SPerkins@interaccess.com
wrote:
There was a recent television program on here
in
the
USA on the Discovery
Channel that detailed an investigation on the
purported Columbus bones.
http://dsc.discovery.com/convergence/co ... umbus.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/spain/article ... 90,00.html
The program concluded that the maternal
haplogroup
was "Caucasian" as
opposed to "Jewish", whatever that means, but
it
did
not reveal the
actual haplogroup found. Y DNA was supposedly
extracted from Hernando
Colon's remains. No haplotype or haplogroup
was
mentioned.
Other evidence was presented for a confusion
of
two
men named Cristobal
Colon, and for the identification of the
Admiral
with the Colon from the
Catalan Colon family of Barcelona which had
fought
against the Spanish
King about 10 years prior to the voyage to
America.
=== message truncated ===
_______________________________________________________
Yahoo! Acesso Grátis - Internet rápida e grátis. Instale o discador agora! http://br.acesso.yahoo.com/
-
Francisco Antonio Doria
Re: Question: Was "Cristobal Colon" Genovese?
On the fact that Colombo used Spanish in his
correspondence: his native dialect was the Ligurian
dialect, never used in official exchanges - Latin was
used. Most of his exchanges with Genoa were official
exchanges, and it is reasonable that he would then use
the official language of the country that made him an
Admiral.
fa
--- Esteban Trento <fliatrento@yahoo.com.ar>
escreveu:
_______________________________________________________
Yahoo! Acesso Grátis - Internet rápida e grátis. Instale o discador agora! http://br.acesso.yahoo.com/
correspondence: his native dialect was the Ligurian
dialect, never used in official exchanges - Latin was
used. Most of his exchanges with Genoa were official
exchanges, and it is reasonable that he would then use
the official language of the country that made him an
Admiral.
fa
--- Esteban Trento <fliatrento@yahoo.com.ar>
escreveu:
franciscoantoniodoria@yahoo.com.br (Francisco
Antonio Doria) wrote in message
news:<20041031215508.55674.qmail@web41711.mail.yahoo.com>...
Let me say that I've watched the tv documentary.
It
has many flaws, from the historical & genealogical
viewpoint.
- A Genoese Cristoforo Colombo is ***actually
documented*** in the Madeira (with trips to Genoa)
from 1478 to 1479, possibly 1480.
The people with whom this sailor-merchant Colombo
dealt with in Genoa in 1479 appear in the
Admiral's
own will of 1503.
- Filipa Moniz (that's her name), the Admiral's
wife,
was ***not*** of high-ranking nobility. She
married at
the same level as her own full sisters, who also
married foreign merchants. Her older half-sisters
married Portuguese noblemen, which has led many
people
to conjecture that Isabel Moniz and Bartolomeu
Perestrello hadn't been married - an irrelevancy
btw,
from the Portuguese viewpoint.
(I'm descended from two of the elder sisters.)
I suspect that this Aragonese `Colón' - the pirate
-
is undocumented.
fa
In the same Discovery program they also said that
Colon (Colombo?)
wrote to his brothers in Spanish (Castilian), not
Italian (I guess
they should be referring to Genoese, not Tuscan).
I've seen in an old History book, Colon's signature,
it says
Cristoferens with some strange symbols/letters.
For me it's all very intriguing. Thanks for all your
posts.
Regards,
Esteban
_______________________________________________________
Yahoo! Acesso Grátis - Internet rápida e grátis. Instale o discador agora! http://br.acesso.yahoo.com/
-
Ronald Di Iorio
Re: Question: Was "Cristobal Colon" Genovese?
Francisco
As I have said before, I never saw the documentary,
and am basing most of my information on Madariaga's
book, which it seems was the basis, minus the DNA
studies, for part of the documentary.
Regarding the language question, Madariaga asserts
that the evidence suggests that Spanish was the
preferred language of Colón, and that he had learned
Latin at an early age. He never wrote in Italian, (of
any dialect) even to other Italians or to himself and
his Latin shows characteristic Spanish mistakes.
Even when making marginal notes in a book published in
Italian, the notes, save one, are in Spanish. The one
note which is claimed by some to be "Italian" is
described by Madariaga as "a comic concotion of
Italian, Castilian, and Portuguese, in which Italian
or pseudo-Italian words are not even in the majority."
I quote the passage below as reproduced:
"del ambra es cierto nascere in india soto tierra he
yo me ho fato cauare in molti monti in la isola de
feyti vel de ophir vel de cipango a la quale habio
posto nome Spagnola y ne ho trovato pieca grande como
el cap ma no tota chiara y parda y otra negra y vene
assay."
Now quoting Madariaga, presenting his position before
providing further evidence,
"Let us sum up the position. Christoforo Colombo was
a young self-taught woolworker of Genoa, turned
sailor, who (1) Read Italian but did not write it: (2)
Spoke and wrote Spanish for his personal use before he
came to Spain; (3) Knew Latin as a Spanish-speaking
person would, though he learned it before he came to
Spain.
From which premises the conclusion is obvious:
Christoforo Colombo was a young Genoese whose Italian
was not presentable, and whose culture-language was
Spanish.
Now there is only one reasonable way of explaining
this fact: the Colombo family were Spanish Jews
settled in Genoa, who, following the traditions of
their race, had remained faithful to the language of
their country of origin."
He then provides further onomastic and other evidence
to further define the Colón family as being of Catalan
Converso origin.
Ronald Di Iorio
--- Francisco Antonio Doria
<franciscoantoniodoria@yahoo.com.br> wrote:
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page.
http://www.yahoo.com
As I have said before, I never saw the documentary,
and am basing most of my information on Madariaga's
book, which it seems was the basis, minus the DNA
studies, for part of the documentary.
Regarding the language question, Madariaga asserts
that the evidence suggests that Spanish was the
preferred language of Colón, and that he had learned
Latin at an early age. He never wrote in Italian, (of
any dialect) even to other Italians or to himself and
his Latin shows characteristic Spanish mistakes.
Even when making marginal notes in a book published in
Italian, the notes, save one, are in Spanish. The one
note which is claimed by some to be "Italian" is
described by Madariaga as "a comic concotion of
Italian, Castilian, and Portuguese, in which Italian
or pseudo-Italian words are not even in the majority."
I quote the passage below as reproduced:
"del ambra es cierto nascere in india soto tierra he
yo me ho fato cauare in molti monti in la isola de
feyti vel de ophir vel de cipango a la quale habio
posto nome Spagnola y ne ho trovato pieca grande como
el cap ma no tota chiara y parda y otra negra y vene
assay."
Now quoting Madariaga, presenting his position before
providing further evidence,
"Let us sum up the position. Christoforo Colombo was
a young self-taught woolworker of Genoa, turned
sailor, who (1) Read Italian but did not write it: (2)
Spoke and wrote Spanish for his personal use before he
came to Spain; (3) Knew Latin as a Spanish-speaking
person would, though he learned it before he came to
Spain.
From which premises the conclusion is obvious:
Christoforo Colombo was a young Genoese whose Italian
was not presentable, and whose culture-language was
Spanish.
Now there is only one reasonable way of explaining
this fact: the Colombo family were Spanish Jews
settled in Genoa, who, following the traditions of
their race, had remained faithful to the language of
their country of origin."
He then provides further onomastic and other evidence
to further define the Colón family as being of Catalan
Converso origin.
Ronald Di Iorio
--- Francisco Antonio Doria
<franciscoantoniodoria@yahoo.com.br> wrote:
On the fact that Colombo used Spanish in his
correspondence: his native dialect was the Ligurian
dialect, never used in official exchanges - Latin
was
used. Most of his exchanges with Genoa were official
exchanges, and it is reasonable that he would then
use
the official language of the country that made him
an
Admiral.
fa
--- Esteban Trento <fliatrento@yahoo.com.ar
escreveu:
franciscoantoniodoria@yahoo.com.br (Francisco
Antonio Doria) wrote in message
news:<20041031215508.55674.qmail@web41711.mail.yahoo.com>...
Let me say that I've watched the tv documentary.
It
has many flaws, from the historical &
genealogical
viewpoint.
- A Genoese Cristoforo Colombo is ***actually
documented*** in the Madeira (with trips to
Genoa)
from 1478 to 1479, possibly 1480.
The people with whom this sailor-merchant
Colombo
dealt with in Genoa in 1479 appear in the
Admiral's
own will of 1503.
- Filipa Moniz (that's her name), the Admiral's
wife,
was ***not*** of high-ranking nobility. She
married at
the same level as her own full sisters, who also
married foreign merchants. Her older
half-sisters
married Portuguese noblemen, which has led many
people
to conjecture that Isabel Moniz and Bartolomeu
Perestrello hadn't been married - an irrelevancy
btw,
from the Portuguese viewpoint.
(I'm descended from two of the elder sisters.)
I suspect that this Aragonese `Colón' - the
pirate
-
is undocumented.
fa
In the same Discovery program they also said that
Colon (Colombo?)
wrote to his brothers in Spanish (Castilian), not
Italian (I guess
they should be referring to Genoese, not Tuscan).
I've seen in an old History book, Colon's
signature,
it says
Cristoferens with some strange symbols/letters.
For me it's all very intriguing. Thanks for all
your
posts.
Regards,
Esteban
_______________________________________________________
Yahoo! Acesso Grátis - Internet rápida e grátis.
Instale o discador agora!
http://br.acesso.yahoo.com/
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page.
http://www.yahoo.com
-
Francisco Antonio Doria
Re: Question: Was "Cristobal Colon" Genovese?
Dear Ronald,
I don't agree. The text below looks like something
written in the Ligurian dialect, which is close to
Provençal. (The description as a mix of Italian,
spanish et al is an apt one.) There was no `Italian'
as such, but the Tuscan dialect, which became sort of
primus inter pares because of Dante's work. Most
Renaissance writers preferred to write in Latin, e.g.
Sannazaro.
The Colombo family of Genoa had a middling-class
status. The admiral's father wasn't just a worker: he
had a minor official position in the city's
administration as guardian of one of Genoa's doors (I
think it was Portoria, but am not sure as I'm quoting
from memory). Its origins can be traced to the
mid-14th century near Genoa, and before that all is
hazy.
The Genoese Colombo had some good educational
background, as he acted from 1478 to 79 as a
representative and dealer in the name of Paolo and
Cassano di Negro (who stood for Lodisio Centurione) in
the Madeira. He was in charge of some heavy purchasing
of sugar by then. He obviously understood Latin, as
his deposition in the Assereto document, 8/25/1479,
was taken in Latin. Recall the saying: Genuensis, ergo
mercator.
I myself have lots of Marrano blood - there is a
branch of my family in Rio, early 18th century, that
was nearly decimated by the Inquisition, and my
3gmother on the Doria side, a cousin of my 3gfather
her husband, was from a family called ``os judeus de
Itapicuru,'' the Jews from Itapicuru (a minor town in
the Brazilian hinterland). But I've never seen any
evident major Jewish migration to Liguria, say, in the
13th or 14th century. There might be some Jews there,
but very few, I suspect. On the other hand there was a
plethora of Cathar noblemen.
fa
--- Ronald Di Iorio <medgen2249@yahoo.com> escreveu:
_______________________________________________________
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I don't agree. The text below looks like something
written in the Ligurian dialect, which is close to
Provençal. (The description as a mix of Italian,
spanish et al is an apt one.) There was no `Italian'
as such, but the Tuscan dialect, which became sort of
primus inter pares because of Dante's work. Most
Renaissance writers preferred to write in Latin, e.g.
Sannazaro.
The Colombo family of Genoa had a middling-class
status. The admiral's father wasn't just a worker: he
had a minor official position in the city's
administration as guardian of one of Genoa's doors (I
think it was Portoria, but am not sure as I'm quoting
from memory). Its origins can be traced to the
mid-14th century near Genoa, and before that all is
hazy.
The Genoese Colombo had some good educational
background, as he acted from 1478 to 79 as a
representative and dealer in the name of Paolo and
Cassano di Negro (who stood for Lodisio Centurione) in
the Madeira. He was in charge of some heavy purchasing
of sugar by then. He obviously understood Latin, as
his deposition in the Assereto document, 8/25/1479,
was taken in Latin. Recall the saying: Genuensis, ergo
mercator.
I myself have lots of Marrano blood - there is a
branch of my family in Rio, early 18th century, that
was nearly decimated by the Inquisition, and my
3gmother on the Doria side, a cousin of my 3gfather
her husband, was from a family called ``os judeus de
Itapicuru,'' the Jews from Itapicuru (a minor town in
the Brazilian hinterland). But I've never seen any
evident major Jewish migration to Liguria, say, in the
13th or 14th century. There might be some Jews there,
but very few, I suspect. On the other hand there was a
plethora of Cathar noblemen.
fa
--- Ronald Di Iorio <medgen2249@yahoo.com> escreveu:
Francisco
As I have said before, I never saw the documentary,
and am basing most of my information on Madariaga's
book, which it seems was the basis, minus the DNA
studies, for part of the documentary.
Regarding the language question, Madariaga asserts
that the evidence suggests that Spanish was the
preferred language of Colón, and that he had learned
Latin at an early age. He never wrote in Italian,
(of
any dialect) even to other Italians or to himself
and
his Latin shows characteristic Spanish mistakes.
Even when making marginal notes in a book published
in
Italian, the notes, save one, are in Spanish. The
one
note which is claimed by some to be "Italian" is
described by Madariaga as "a comic concotion of
Italian, Castilian, and Portuguese, in which Italian
or pseudo-Italian words are not even in the
majority."
I quote the passage below as reproduced:
"del ambra es cierto nascere in india soto tierra he
yo me ho fato cauare in molti monti in la isola de
feyti vel de ophir vel de cipango a la quale habio
posto nome Spagnola y ne ho trovato pieca grande
como
el cap ma no tota chiara y parda y otra negra y vene
assay."
Now quoting Madariaga, presenting his position
before
providing further evidence,
"Let us sum up the position. Christoforo Colombo
was
a young self-taught woolworker of Genoa, turned
sailor, who (1) Read Italian but did not write it:
(2)
Spoke and wrote Spanish for his personal use before
he
came to Spain; (3) Knew Latin as a Spanish-speaking
person would, though he learned it before he came to
Spain.
From which premises the conclusion is obvious:
Christoforo Colombo was a young Genoese whose
Italian
was not presentable, and whose culture-language was
Spanish.
Now there is only one reasonable way of explaining
this fact: the Colombo family were Spanish Jews
settled in Genoa, who, following the traditions of
their race, had remained faithful to the language of
their country of origin."
He then provides further onomastic and other
evidence
to further define the Colón family as being of
Catalan
Converso origin.
Ronald Di Iorio
--- Francisco Antonio Doria
franciscoantoniodoria@yahoo.com.br> wrote:
On the fact that Colombo used Spanish in his
correspondence: his native dialect was the
Ligurian
dialect, never used in official exchanges - Latin
was
used. Most of his exchanges with Genoa were
official
exchanges, and it is reasonable that he would then
use
the official language of the country that made him
an
Admiral.
fa
--- Esteban Trento <fliatrento@yahoo.com.ar
escreveu:
franciscoantoniodoria@yahoo.com.br (Francisco
Antonio Doria) wrote in message
news:<20041031215508.55674.qmail@web41711.mail.yahoo.com>...
Let me say that I've watched the tv
documentary.
It
has many flaws, from the historical &
genealogical
viewpoint.
- A Genoese Cristoforo Colombo is ***actually
documented*** in the Madeira (with trips to
Genoa)
from 1478 to 1479, possibly 1480.
The people with whom this sailor-merchant
Colombo
dealt with in Genoa in 1479 appear in the
Admiral's
own will of 1503.
- Filipa Moniz (that's her name), the
Admiral's
wife,
was ***not*** of high-ranking nobility. She
married at
the same level as her own full sisters, who
also
married foreign merchants. Her older
half-sisters
married Portuguese noblemen, which has led
many
people
to conjecture that Isabel Moniz and Bartolomeu
Perestrello hadn't been married - an
irrelevancy
btw,
from the Portuguese viewpoint.
(I'm descended from two of the elder sisters.)
I suspect that this Aragonese `Colón' - the
pirate
-
is undocumented.
fa
In the same Discovery program they also said
that
Colon (Colombo?)
wrote to his brothers in Spanish (Castilian),
not
Italian (I guess
they should be referring to Genoese, not
Tuscan).
I've seen in an old History book, Colon's
signature,
it says
Cristoferens with some strange symbols/letters.
For me it's all very intriguing. Thanks for all
your
posts.
Regards,
Esteban
_______________________________________________________
Yahoo! Acesso Grátis - Internet rápida e grátis.
Instale o discador agora!
http://br.acesso.yahoo.com/
__________________________________
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-
Ruy Vaz
Re: Question: Was "Cristobal Colon" Genovese?
Mr. Ronald Di Iorio
This is a very interesting topic, long time looking it and I'm sorry if
I am invading your space, but with your permission I should like put
some questions.
1. In the life "del Admiral de las Indias" the period that we know
better (because with good documents)is the periode in Castilla
Kingdom. After that he started to be so important that friends and
enemys and a lot of aliens interests, familiars, church, nationals,
etc, help build fantasy and delirium. But we can try be serious and
work the topic indirectely, respecting the Fonts. Colón castillian
(not spanish please)subdjet of His Altesse Dona Isabella, la Reyna
Católica? Colón of Catalunya, subdjet of His Altesse Dom Hernando de
Aragón, el Rey Católico (But the naturals of this Kingdom never
obtained permission to do adventures in New World, because that is
reserved to the castillian nation)? Cólon jew not recognized by the
portuguese jews conse(of the "da Nação"? Colombo Siciliano? Colon
....!!!But he have family.
2. He has althought a portuguese període. He writes castilian like a
portuguese probably because he live there ( Madariaga dont see
that?)Can we documented it?
Portugal in that time was the the land of the Discoveries. There,a lot
people of the "most strange nations", came from all Europe but the dor
of portuguese King was not a open gate for all. So, I expect of you
some explanations about what, in that time a strange can live in
Portugal, the place of the "genoa" nation on the portuguese world and
what were the rules to participate in the discovery expeditions, and
marry with someone with status of "fidalgo"?
3. On the end that strange behaviour of coming from the first trip, go
in first to Lisbon, to speak with the King who rejected their plan, not
be jealed, and forgetten for some days the so demanded honor and the
profit awainting him in Castilla ?
Thanks for all you
Best Regards
Ruy Vaz
Ronald Di Iorio wrote:
This is a very interesting topic, long time looking it and I'm sorry if
I am invading your space, but with your permission I should like put
some questions.
1. In the life "del Admiral de las Indias" the period that we know
better (because with good documents)is the periode in Castilla
Kingdom. After that he started to be so important that friends and
enemys and a lot of aliens interests, familiars, church, nationals,
etc, help build fantasy and delirium. But we can try be serious and
work the topic indirectely, respecting the Fonts. Colón castillian
(not spanish please)subdjet of His Altesse Dona Isabella, la Reyna
Católica? Colón of Catalunya, subdjet of His Altesse Dom Hernando de
Aragón, el Rey Católico (But the naturals of this Kingdom never
obtained permission to do adventures in New World, because that is
reserved to the castillian nation)? Cólon jew not recognized by the
portuguese jews conse(of the "da Nação"? Colombo Siciliano? Colon
....!!!But he have family.
2. He has althought a portuguese període. He writes castilian like a
portuguese probably because he live there ( Madariaga dont see
that?)Can we documented it?
Portugal in that time was the the land of the Discoveries. There,a lot
people of the "most strange nations", came from all Europe but the dor
of portuguese King was not a open gate for all. So, I expect of you
some explanations about what, in that time a strange can live in
Portugal, the place of the "genoa" nation on the portuguese world and
what were the rules to participate in the discovery expeditions, and
marry with someone with status of "fidalgo"?
3. On the end that strange behaviour of coming from the first trip, go
in first to Lisbon, to speak with the King who rejected their plan, not
be jealed, and forgetten for some days the so demanded honor and the
profit awainting him in Castilla ?
Thanks for all you
Best Regards
Ruy Vaz
Ronald Di Iorio wrote:
Francisco
As I have said before, I never saw the documentary,
and am basing most of my information on Madariaga's
book, which it seems was the basis, minus the DNA
studies, for part of the documentary.
Regarding the language question, Madariaga asserts
that the evidence suggests that Spanish was the
preferred language of Colón, and that he had learned
Latin at an early age. He never wrote in Italian, (of
any dialect) even to other Italians or to himself and
his Latin shows characteristic Spanish mistakes.
Even when making marginal notes in a book published in
Italian, the notes, save one, are in Spanish. The one
note which is claimed by some to be "Italian" is
described by Madariaga as "a comic concotion of
Italian, Castilian, and Portuguese, in which Italian
or pseudo-Italian words are not even in the majority."
I quote the passage below as reproduced:
"del ambra es cierto nascere in india soto tierra he
yo me ho fato cauare in molti monti in la isola de
feyti vel de ophir vel de cipango a la quale habio
posto nome Spagnola y ne ho trovato pieca grande como
el cap ma no tota chiara y parda y otra negra y vene
assay."
Now quoting Madariaga, presenting his position before
providing further evidence,
"Let us sum up the position. Christoforo Colombo was
a young self-taught woolworker of Genoa, turned
sailor, who (1) Read Italian but did not write it: (2)
Spoke and wrote Spanish for his personal use before he
came to Spain; (3) Knew Latin as a Spanish-speaking
person would, though he learned it before he came to
Spain.
From which premises the conclusion is obvious:
Christoforo Colombo was a young Genoese whose Italian
was not presentable, and whose culture-language was
Spanish.
Now there is only one reasonable way of explaining
this fact: the Colombo family were Spanish Jews
settled in Genoa, who, following the traditions of
their race, had remained faithful to the language of
their country of origin."
He then provides further onomastic and other evidence
to further define the Colón family as being of Catalan
Converso origin.
Ronald Di Iorio
--- Francisco Antonio Doria
franciscoantoniodoria@yahoo.com.br> wrote:
On the fact that Colombo used Spanish in his
correspondence: his native dialect was the Ligurian
dialect, never used in official exchanges - Latin
was
used. Most of his exchanges with Genoa were official
exchanges, and it is reasonable that he would then
use
the official language of the country that made him
an
Admiral.
fa
--- Esteban Trento <fliatrento@yahoo.com.ar
escreveu:
franciscoantoniodoria@yahoo.com.br (Francisco
Antonio Doria) wrote in message
news:<20041031215508.55674.qmail@web41711.mail.yahoo.com>...
Let me say that I've watched the tv documentary.
It
has many flaws, from the historical &
genealogical
viewpoint.
- A Genoese Cristoforo Colombo is ***actually
documented*** in the Madeira (with trips to
Genoa)
from 1478 to 1479, possibly 1480.
The people with whom this sailor-merchant
Colombo
dealt with in Genoa in 1479 appear in the
Admiral's
own will of 1503.
- Filipa Moniz (that's her name), the Admiral's
wife,
was ***not*** of high-ranking nobility. She
married at
the same level as her own full sisters, who also
married foreign merchants. Her older
half-sisters
married Portuguese noblemen, which has led many
people
to conjecture that Isabel Moniz and Bartolomeu
Perestrello hadn't been married - an irrelevancy
btw,
from the Portuguese viewpoint.
(I'm descended from two of the elder sisters.)
I suspect that this Aragonese `Colón' - the
pirate
-
is undocumented.
fa
In the same Discovery program they also said that
Colon (Colombo?)
wrote to his brothers in Spanish (Castilian), not
Italian (I guess
they should be referring to Genoese, not Tuscan).
I've seen in an old History book, Colon's
signature,
it says
Cristoferens with some strange symbols/letters.
For me it's all very intriguing. Thanks for all
your
posts.
Regards,
Esteban
_______________________________________________________
Yahoo! Acesso Grátis - Internet rápida e grátis.
Instale o discador agora!
http://br.acesso.yahoo.com/
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page.
http://www.yahoo.com