Fw: Gerberge, alleged mother of Conan I of Brittany

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Leo van de Pas

Fw: Gerberge, alleged mother of Conan I of Brittany

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 26 okt 2004 04:32:12

Dear Stewart,
Many thanks for this, I am going to turn Gerberge into a NN.

I know you deal with primary sources but ES III/4 tafel 689
this shows Geoffrey I, 967 Vicomte de Chateaudun, died shortly after 986,
married Hildegarde (mentioned about 1020 ) died 14 April before 1023, sister
of Gerberge wife of Gilduin de Saumur

Now comes my question. Geoffroy I and Hildegarde are marked off with three
children,
1.Hugues I, Vicomte de Chateaudun, Archbishop of Tours (two illegitimate
sons)
2.Adalandus (Alo) Seigneur de Chinon
3.Albert, Abbott of Micy

then the family tree is continued without indicating how

nepos of Hugues Archbishop of Tours
Geoffroy II, Vicomte de Chateaudun, murdered before the Cathedral of
Chartres
he marries has two sons and the younger son continues the Chateaudun
family.

Do you know how Geoffroy II is descended from Geoffroy I?

With many thanks
Leo van de Pas

----- Original Message -----
From: "Stewart Baldwin" <sbaldw@mindspring.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2004 8:24 AM
Subject: Gerberge, alleged mother of Conan I of Brittany


One of the matters left hanging in recent discussions of Juhel
Berengar of Rennes was the name Gerberge, given in a number of sources
(e.g., Anselme) as the name of the wife of Juhel Berengar of Rennes
and mother of Conan I. I recently examined a microfilm of Lobineau's
"Histoire de Bretagne" (2 vols., Paris, 1707), available at the Family
History Library in Salt Lake City, on films 865446 (history) and
865447 (documentary evidence), which supplies some additional
information on Gerberge. In vol. 1, page 81, we find a note (clearly
intending this Gerberge) which mentions a donation in the 25th year of
king Lothair in which are mentioned viscountess Gerberge, formerly
wife of Berengar and now wife of Gilduin, and her sister countess
Hildegarde. It is evident that this Berengar is being identified with
Juhel Berengar.

Looking around, I found more in two articles in the volume
Keats-Rohan, ed. "Family Trees and the Roots of Politics (Boydell
Press, 1997), namely , in K.S.B. Keats-Rohan's article "'Un vassal
sans histoire'?: Count Hugh II (c.940/55-992) and the Origins of
Angevin Overlordship in Maine" (pp. 190-210), and in Christian
Settipani's article "Les comtes d'Anjou et leurs alliances aux Xe et
XIe siècles" (pp. 211-267). According to these articles, Gerberge was
the sister of Hildegarde, wife of Geoffrey I, viscount of Châteaudun,
and Gerberge was married first, to Berengar (of Doué, p. 202) and
second, to Gilduin of Saumur (pp. 202, 259) or Doué (p. 262 - an
error?). Keats-Rohan also states that "Hildegarde was apparently a
member of the much-discussed family of Adelard of Loches" and her
genealogical table on page 194 makes Hildegarde (with a question mark)
a granddaughter of count Hugh I of Maine.

If this attribution of Gerberge's first husband Berengar as "of Doué"
is correct (on which I would like to see more, but have no reason to
question), then the attempt to identify this Berengar with Juhel
Berengar of Rennes must be set aside, and the name of Juhel Berengar's
wife ought to be regarded as unknown.

Stewart Baldwin




Peter Stewart

Re: Fw: Gerberge, alleged mother of Conan I of Brittany

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 26 okt 2004 09:06:33

leovdpas@netspeed.com.au ("Leo van de Pas") wrote in message news:<000601c4baf3$b68c8c20$c3b4fea9@email>...
Dear Stewart,
Many thanks for this, I am going to turn Gerberge into a NN.

I know you deal with primary sources but ES III/4 tafel 689
this shows Geoffrey I, 967 Vicomte de Chateaudun, died shortly after 986,
married Hildegarde (mentioned about 1020 ) died 14 April before 1023, sister
of Gerberge wife of Gilduin de Saumur

Now comes my question. Geoffroy I and Hildegarde are marked off with three
children,
1.Hugues I, Vicomte de Chateaudun, Archbishop of Tours (two illegitimate
sons)
2.Adalandus (Alo) Seigneur de Chinon
3.Albert, Abbott of Micy

then the family tree is continued without indicating how

nepos of Hugues Archbishop of Tours
Geoffroy II, Vicomte de Chateaudun, murdered before the Cathedral of
Chartres
he marries has two sons and the younger son continues the Chateaudun
family.

Do you know how Geoffroy II is descended from Geoffroy I?

Stewart may not have seen Leo's question as yet - the link between SGM
and Usenet appears to be broken.

All that can be said with a reasonable degree of certainty is that
Geoffrey II was related, probably as grandson, to his namesake
predecessor.

Kathleen Thompson discussed 'The Ancestry of Viscount Geoffrey' (II)
in the first appendix to her _Power and Border Lordship in Medieval
France: the County of the Perche 1000—1226_ (Woodbridge, 2002).

There is no definite answer: according to the 19th-century historian
Olivier de Romanet, Viscountess Hildegarde had two sons, Archbishop
Hugo of Tours and another Viscount Geoffrey of Châteaudun who married
Milesindis of Nogent-le-Rotrou by whom he was father of the Viscount
Geoffrey (II) murdered at Chartres in 1035. (The latter was married to
Helviza, by whom he was father of the succeeding viscounts, Hugo and
Rotrou.)

The alternative hypothesis given by Thompson is that Milesindis was
the sister of Archbishop Hugo, and married to Rotrou of
Nogent-le-Rotrou by whom she was mother of the younger Viscount
Geoffrey (II).

I don't know where Adalandus (Alo) comes from or how he might fit in
(or not) with the viscounts of Châteaudun. Chinon belonged to the
counts of Blois until 1044 and to the counts of Anjou after that. What
sources are given for the table in ES making him a seigneur of Chinon
from this family?

Abbot Albert of Micy (died 1036) was more probably related, but
possibly not by blood - Christian Settipani has conjectured a marriage
between him and a daughter of the first Viscount Geoffrey &
Viscountess Hildegarde.

Peter Stewart

Leo van de Pas

Re: Fw: Gerberge, alleged mother of Conan I of Brittany

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 27 okt 2004 04:57:56

Dear Peter,

For Tables 689-691 many sources are given, including Vicomte Oliver de
Romanet, Geographie du Perche, Mortagne 1890-1902. Would it help you if I
record all for you?
Leo


----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 5:06 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: Gerberge, alleged mother of Conan I of Brittany


leovdpas@netspeed.com.au ("Leo van de Pas") wrote in message
news:<000601c4baf3$b68c8c20$c3b4fea9@email>...
Dear Stewart,
Many thanks for this, I am going to turn Gerberge into a NN.

I know you deal with primary sources but ES III/4 tafel 689
this shows Geoffrey I, 967 Vicomte de Chateaudun, died shortly after
986,
married Hildegarde (mentioned about 1020 ) died 14 April before 1023,
sister
of Gerberge wife of Gilduin de Saumur

Now comes my question. Geoffroy I and Hildegarde are marked off with
three
children,
1.Hugues I, Vicomte de Chateaudun, Archbishop of Tours (two illegitimate
sons)
2.Adalandus (Alo) Seigneur de Chinon
3.Albert, Abbott of Micy

then the family tree is continued without indicating how

nepos of Hugues Archbishop of Tours
Geoffroy II, Vicomte de Chateaudun, murdered before the Cathedral of
Chartres
he marries has two sons and the younger son continues the Chateaudun
family.

Do you know how Geoffroy II is descended from Geoffroy I?

Stewart may not have seen Leo's question as yet - the link between SGM
and Usenet appears to be broken.

All that can be said with a reasonable degree of certainty is that
Geoffrey II was related, probably as grandson, to his namesake
predecessor.

Kathleen Thompson discussed 'The Ancestry of Viscount Geoffrey' (II)
in the first appendix to her _Power and Border Lordship in Medieval
France: the County of the Perche 1000-1226_ (Woodbridge, 2002).

There is no definite answer: according to the 19th-century historian
Olivier de Romanet, Viscountess Hildegarde had two sons, Archbishop
Hugo of Tours and another Viscount Geoffrey of Châteaudun who married
Milesindis of Nogent-le-Rotrou by whom he was father of the Viscount
Geoffrey (II) murdered at Chartres in 1035. (The latter was married to
Helviza, by whom he was father of the succeeding viscounts, Hugo and
Rotrou.)

The alternative hypothesis given by Thompson is that Milesindis was
the sister of Archbishop Hugo, and married to Rotrou of
Nogent-le-Rotrou by whom she was mother of the younger Viscount
Geoffrey (II).

I don't know where Adalandus (Alo) comes from or how he might fit in
(or not) with the viscounts of Châteaudun. Chinon belonged to the
counts of Blois until 1044 and to the counts of Anjou after that. What
sources are given for the table in ES making him a seigneur of Chinon
from this family?

Abbot Albert of Micy (died 1036) was more probably related, but
possibly not by blood - Christian Settipani has conjectured a marriage
between him and a daughter of the first Viscount Geoffrey &
Viscountess Hildegarde.

Peter Stewart


Peter Stewart

Re: Fw: Gerberge, alleged mother of Conan I of Brittany

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 27 okt 2004 10:47:03

Leo van de Pas wrote:
Dear Peter,

For Tables 689-691 many sources are given, including Vicomte Oliver de
Romanet, Geographie du Perche, Mortagne 1890-1902. Would it help you if I
record all for you?

Thanks, Leo - I've now excavated my copy of ES III/4 and see that the
list is indeed long & forbidding to any thought of checking each source.

I suspect that Dom Villevielle might be the origin of "Adalandus,
seigneur de Chinon", but this will have to remain a mystery for me.

Peter Stewart

Peter Stewart

Re: Fw: Gerberge, alleged mother of Conan I of Brittany

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 27 okt 2004 15:16:21

Peter Stewart wrote:
Leo van de Pas wrote:

Dear Peter,

For Tables 689-691 many sources are given, including Vicomte Oliver de
Romanet, Geographie du Perche, Mortagne 1890-1902. Would it help you if I
record all for you?


Thanks, Leo - I've now excavated my copy of ES III/4 and see that the
list is indeed long & forbidding to any thought of checking each source.

I suspect that Dom Villevielle might be the origin of "Adalandus,
seigneur de Chinon", but this will have to remain a mystery for me.

A memory stirred at last - Karl Ferdinand Werner in 'Untersuchungen zur
Frühzeit des französischen Fürstentums (9.-10. Jahrhundert)', II. Zu den
Anfängen des Hauses Anjou, _Die Welt als Geschichte_ 18 (1958), p. 278,
mentioned that Alo of Chinon - whom he described as one of the most
important vassals of Blois - occurs in a charter of 1001/04 under his
full name as Adelaudus, brother of Viscount Hugo of Châteaudun who later
became archbishop of Tours ("S. Hugoni decani, S. Adelaudi fratris
eius", loc. cit. note 111).

Werner questioned whether the two might have been half-brothers.

Peter Stewart

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