St.Guilhem de Gellone seems to have been a very interesting person.
ES tells he married twice and had several children by both wives. I wanted to know more about him and tried to look him up in a book I have about Saints, but no mention (perhaps I looked at the wrong place).
The Internet gave a little more as well as ES gives details about his life. According to ES in 803 he conquered Barcelona, founded in 804 the Abbey of Gellone, in 806 he bcomes a monk at Gellone, and "before 806" founded Casanova (Goudargues). Where is Goudargues? I presume it is a monastery or convent?
According to the Internet, he is a cousin of Charlemagne (as he descends from a daughter of Charles Martel) and took part in the re-conquest of the south of France from the Muslims.
He married a Muslim princess (Mohammed ?) Oriabel as his second wife. Oriable/Guibourg died about 804 which is the reason for him to become a monk. He died in 812
ES has him die between 28 May 812 and 21 May 815.
By his first wife he is father of Bernhard Count of Autun who in 844 in Aachen was executed. Does anyone know why he was executed?
With many thanks.
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
French questions
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Todd A. Farmerie
Re: French questions
Leo van de Pas wrote:
He is called a cousin of Charlemagne in contemporary documents. This
was originally interpreted (based on the names given some of his
children) as indicating that his mother and Charlemagne's were sisters.
IIRC, the discovery that Charles Martel may have had a daughter of the
same name as William's mother caused Christian Settipani to instead
conclude that the common descent was from Martel, rather than Charibert.
There is no evidence that either wife was muslim. Much later troubadour
Chansons gave him a muslim wife, but this cannot be harmonized with the
contemporary record, where his wives appear exclusively with germanic
names, and no indication of him having married outside of the norm exists.
taf
According to the Internet, he is a cousin of Charlemagne (as he descends from a daughter of Charles Martel) and took part in the re-conquest of the south of France from the Muslims.
He is called a cousin of Charlemagne in contemporary documents. This
was originally interpreted (based on the names given some of his
children) as indicating that his mother and Charlemagne's were sisters.
IIRC, the discovery that Charles Martel may have had a daughter of the
same name as William's mother caused Christian Settipani to instead
conclude that the common descent was from Martel, rather than Charibert.
He married a Muslim princess (Mohammed ?) Oriabel as his second wife. Oriable/Guibourg died about 804 which is the reason for him to become a monk. He died in 812
There is no evidence that either wife was muslim. Much later troubadour
Chansons gave him a muslim wife, but this cannot be harmonized with the
contemporary record, where his wives appear exclusively with germanic
names, and no indication of him having married outside of the norm exists.
taf
-
Nathaniel Taylor
Re: French questions: Saint Guilhem
In article <000e01c4b6fc$ba772200$c3b4fea9@email>,
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au ("Leo van de Pas") wrote:
Well, his sanctity is sort of unofficial, though since his tomb makes it
into the _Pilgrim's Guide to Santiago de Compostela_, it is certainly
valid by medieval standards.
Yes, this was a small monastery in the Département du Gard (north of
Nîmes), associated with Aniane and with Saint Guilhem; see below.
This is the accretion of fable to reality. In two
potentially-partly-real charters the historical Guilhem names his two
wives, including Guiburga. 'Orable', the Muslim princess, is the
fictionalized wife given to the literary character 'William of Orange',
who appears to be based, partly, on the historical Saint William.
There are no contemporary witnesses for his death date. 28 May 812
derives from a necrology which dates from the eleventh century, and may
well be right, as it's in the right ballpark. The latter date is a late
terminus: a confirmation by Louis the Pious to Aniane, one of the
monasteries with which Guilhem was connected, which confirms its
possession of a priory, Casanova (that little house in Guadargues,
referred to above), "quam dudum Vuillelmus condam comes ...
construxerat."
To big for his britches? Or simply realpolitik. He was a powerful
figure, and got his comeuppance from folks who didn't like him. The
annals like to call him names like 'the tyrant Bernard'. It's hard to
know where to start, but Janet Nelson's _Charles the Bald_ might be a
good place. And, by the way, this Bernard was more widely known as the
marquis of Septimania: there are many Bernards in his and the next
generation, and it's important to keep to naming that helps keep them
clear. Bouchard has a good summary of the 'problem of the three
Bernards' in one of her articles in _Francia_.
For more on the context of Saint Guilhem, look at the 1997 TAG article
which I have on line at my website.
Nat Taylor
a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au ("Leo van de Pas") wrote:
St.Guilhem de Gellone seems to have been a very interesting person.
ES tells he married twice and had several children by both wives. I wanted to
know more about him and tried to look him up in a book I have about Saints,
but no mention (perhaps I looked at the wrong place).
Well, his sanctity is sort of unofficial, though since his tomb makes it
into the _Pilgrim's Guide to Santiago de Compostela_, it is certainly
valid by medieval standards.
The Internet gave a little more as well as ES gives details about his life.
According to ES in 803 he conquered Barcelona, founded in 804 the Abbey of
Gellone, in 806 he bcomes a monk at Gellone, and "before 806" founded
Casanova (Goudargues). Where is Goudargues? I presume it is a monastery or
convent?
Yes, this was a small monastery in the Département du Gard (north of
Nîmes), associated with Aniane and with Saint Guilhem; see below.
According to the Internet, he is a cousin of Charlemagne (as he descends from
a daughter of Charles Martel) and took part in the re-conquest of the south
of France from the Muslims.
He married a Muslim princess (Mohammed ?) Oriabel as his second wife.
Oriable/Guibourg died about 804 which is the reason for him to become a monk.
This is the accretion of fable to reality. In two
potentially-partly-real charters the historical Guilhem names his two
wives, including Guiburga. 'Orable', the Muslim princess, is the
fictionalized wife given to the literary character 'William of Orange',
who appears to be based, partly, on the historical Saint William.
He died in 812
ES has him die between 28 May 812 and 21 May 815.
There are no contemporary witnesses for his death date. 28 May 812
derives from a necrology which dates from the eleventh century, and may
well be right, as it's in the right ballpark. The latter date is a late
terminus: a confirmation by Louis the Pious to Aniane, one of the
monasteries with which Guilhem was connected, which confirms its
possession of a priory, Casanova (that little house in Guadargues,
referred to above), "quam dudum Vuillelmus condam comes ...
construxerat."
By his first wife he is father of Bernhard Count of Autun who in 844 in
Aachen was executed. Does anyone know why he was executed?
To big for his britches? Or simply realpolitik. He was a powerful
figure, and got his comeuppance from folks who didn't like him. The
annals like to call him names like 'the tyrant Bernard'. It's hard to
know where to start, but Janet Nelson's _Charles the Bald_ might be a
good place. And, by the way, this Bernard was more widely known as the
marquis of Septimania: there are many Bernards in his and the next
generation, and it's important to keep to naming that helps keep them
clear. Bouchard has a good summary of the 'problem of the three
Bernards' in one of her articles in _Francia_.
For more on the context of Saint Guilhem, look at the 1997 TAG article
which I have on line at my website.
Nat Taylor
a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/