Magnacharius

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D.D.Meister

Magnacharius

Legg inn av D.D.Meister » 19 okt 2004 10:53:08

Dear Group,
In article <37E36F30.98B49896@club-internet.fr>, inapit@club-internet.fr
(Christian Settipani) wrote:
justification. So Anchises for Ansegisel.In this case, Manasses go for
Magnarius (Magnacharius = Mainier). The first one is a frank prince. His
brother's granddaughter was married c. 540 to a Betto of Orleans. This

Settipani (Les Ancetres de Charlemagne, 1989, and La Prehistoire des
Capetiens, with Patrick van Kerrebrouck, 1993, but I've only seen the
genealogical files from the internet, called "CHARLANC in 7 parts") has
this granddaughter, wife of Betton, as Austregilde Agia, her mother as
Ragnoara (m. with Pastor), her father as Ragnomer, king of Cambrai (* c.
465, + in 508).

The latter indicates that Ragnomer is brother of Ragnachar, king of
Cambrai, and Ricchar (Gregory of Tours calls this brother Rignomer), all
killed by king Clodovechus.

Please, could anybody help me with my questions:
Are the names Ragnomer and Rignomer the same?
And are the names Ragnachar and Magnachar the same? Or is "the first
one" Magnachar another brother of Ragnachar, Ricchar and Rignomer? Or
are Magnachar and his brother completely other men?
--
Life is like a journey with death as its only destination. So why hurry?

marshall kirk

Re: Magnacharius

Legg inn av marshall kirk » 20 okt 2004 01:24:34

See below.

"D.D.Meister" <D.Meister@fhtw-berlin.de> wrote in message news:<2tk2vmF20dnunU1@uni-berlin.de>...
Dear Group,
In article <37E36F30.98B49896@club-internet.fr>, inapit@club-internet.fr
(Christian Settipani) wrote:
justification. So Anchises for Ansegisel.In this case, Manasses go for
Magnarius (Magnacharius = Mainier). The first one is a frank prince. His
brother's granddaughter was married c. 540 to a Betto of Orleans. This

Settipani (Les Ancetres de Charlemagne, 1989, and La Prehistoire des
Capetiens, with Patrick van Kerrebrouck, 1993, but I've only seen the
genealogical files from the internet, called "CHARLANC in 7 parts") has
this granddaughter, wife of Betton, as Austregilde Agia, her mother as
Ragnoara (m. with Pastor), her father as Ragnomer, king of Cambrai (* c.
465, + in 508).

The latter indicates that Ragnomer is brother of Ragnachar, king of
Cambrai, and Ricchar (Gregory of Tours calls this brother Rignomer), all
killed by king Clodovechus.

Please, could anybody help me with my questions:
Are the names Ragnomer and Rignomer the same?
And are the names Ragnachar and Magnachar the same? Or is "the first
one" Magnachar another brother of Ragnachar, Ricchar and Rignomer? Or
are Magnachar and his brother completely other men?

Bearing in mind that Christian may by now have a new formulation on
any of these points, my understanding of his _Les Ancetres de
Charlemagne_ has always been that by "Ragnomer" he means the same
brother that Gregory of Tours names (in Thorpe's translation) as
Rignomer. (There may be manuscript variants; I haven't had any reason
to check.) So, the three brothers are Ragnachar, Ricchar, and
Rignomer/Ragnomer.

Ragnachar and Magnachar are definitely *not* the same name. Christian
certainly *seems* to be saying that the first attested Magnachar was
another brother of the 'three Rs.' The only Magnachar Gregory
mentions was father of Marcatrude (who married King Guntram), Guntio
(which is a nickname), and Wiolich (which looks peculiar). He doesn't
say that this Magnachar was related to the three Rs (tho' he often
doesn't make explicit things that were well-known and obvious to him),
and the chronology seems a generation off for that (tho' perhaps I'm
just tired). I would tend to suppose that Magnatrude, the beastly
wife of Bishop Badegisil, was of the same brood -- perhaps sister of
Marcatrude and thus daughter of Magnachar?

Christian, please correct any misapprehensions.

D.D.Meister

Re: Magnacharius

Legg inn av D.D.Meister » 20 okt 2004 12:01:22

marshall kirk schrieb:
See below.

"D.D.Meister" <D.Meister@fhtw-berlin.de> wrote in message news:<2tk2vmF20dnunU1@uni-berlin.de>...

Dear Group,
In article <37E36F30.98B49896@club-internet.fr>, inapit@club-internet.fr
(Christian Settipani) wrote:

justification. So Anchises for Ansegisel.In this case, Manasses go for
Magnarius (Magnacharius = Mainier). The first one is a frank prince. His
brother's granddaughter was married c. 540 to a Betto of Orleans. This

Settipani (Les Ancetres de Charlemagne, 1989, and La Prehistoire des
Capetiens, with Patrick van Kerrebrouck, 1993, but I've only seen the
genealogical files from the internet, called "CHARLANC in 7 parts") has
this granddaughter, wife of Betton, as Austregilde Agia, her mother as
Ragnoara (m. with Pastor), her father as Ragnomer, king of Cambrai (* c.
465, + in 508).

The latter indicates that Ragnomer is brother of Ragnachar, king of
Cambrai, and Ricchar (Gregory of Tours calls this brother Rignomer), all
killed by king Clodovechus.

Please, could anybody help me with my questions:
Are the names Ragnomer and Rignomer the same?
And are the names Ragnachar and Magnachar the same? Or is "the first
one" Magnachar another brother of Ragnachar, Ricchar and Rignomer? Or
are Magnachar and his brother completely other men?


Bearing in mind that Christian may by now have a new formulation on
any of these points, my understanding of his _Les Ancetres de
Charlemagne_ has always been that by "Ragnomer" he means the same
brother that Gregory of Tours names (in Thorpe's translation) as
Rignomer. (There may be manuscript variants; I haven't had any reason
to check.) So, the three brothers are Ragnachar, Ricchar, and
Rignomer/Ragnomer.

Ragnachar and Magnachar are definitely *not* the same name. Christian
certainly *seems* to be saying that the first attested Magnachar was
another brother of the 'three Rs.' The only Magnachar Gregory
mentions was father of Marcatrude (who married King Guntram), Guntio
(which is a nickname), and Wiolich (which looks peculiar). He doesn't
say that this Magnachar was related to the three Rs (tho' he often
doesn't make explicit things that were well-known and obvious to him),
and the chronology seems a generation off for that (tho' perhaps I'm
just tired). I would tend to suppose that Magnatrude, the beastly
wife of Bishop Badegisil, was of the same brood -- perhaps sister of
Marcatrude and thus daughter of Magnachar?

Christian, please correct any misapprehensions.

Thank you very much, this sufficiently answers my questions.

Detlef Meister

--
Life is like a journey with death as its only destination. So why hurry?

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