Wednesday, 13 October, 2004
Dear Stewart, Brice, et al.,
In addition to Stewart's current post, a good read on this subject
should include his post of 29 August 2001 entitled <Re: Donnell
O'Brien, king of Thomond>.
One added problem that the O'Brien 'solution' does not solve was
discussed at length (and left unresolved) in the 2003 thread, <Re:
King's kinsfolk: Robert II, King of Scotland and David, Duke of
Rothesay>. As I contended in one particular post on 8 August 2003
(see a part thereof below), there is an unresolved relationship
between the de Burgh Earls of Ulster and the Kings of England, Edward
I through III, identified in the research of Douglas Richardson
[cf. Plantagenet Ancestry (2004)]. The most likely solution based on
chronology, onomastics (William's son being named Richard) and the
subsequent claim to kinship by Kings Edward I [ Cal. Chancery Warrants
(1927):261] and Edward II [H. Johnstone, Letters of Edward Prince of
Wales, 1304-1305 (1931): 17] to Richard, Earl of Ulster (d. 1326):
The unknown wife of William de Burgh, lord of Connaught (d. 1205)
and mother of his son, Richard the Justiciar (d. 1242), was a hitherto
unknown illegitimate daughter of Henry II of England [or, less likely,
of one of his sons - Richard Coeur-de-Lion being an interesting
alternative].
~ Given the subsequent marriages of William's brother Hubert de
Burgh to a royal divorcee (Isabel of Gloucester) and a Scots
princess (Margaret, dau. of William the Lion), a royal
English bastard is not far-fetched as a suitable wife for
King John's loyal servant in Ireland....
Cheers,
John
============================
From:
Therav3@aol.com (
Therav3@aol.com)
Subject: Re: King's kinsfolk: Robert II, King of Scotland and David, Duke of
Rothesay
View: Complete Thread (36 articles)
Original Format
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
Date: 2003-08-08 20:08:42 PST
Friday, 8 August, 2003
Dear Douglas, Phil, et al.,
An avenue for resolving the relationship between Robert II,
King of Scots and Edward III of England (found by Douglas
Richardson in Foedera - 1st post in this thread) has been
identified.
One near relation of Robert II has been identified as being
related to Edward I of England, with the relationship not yet
resolved. In Douglas Richardson's as-yet unpublished manuscript
for "Plantagenet Ancestry (3rd ed)", there is evidence found in
the Chancery Warrants. One document in that collection records
that Richard de Burgh, Earl of Ulster (d. 1326) was styled by
Edward I as "king's cousin" [1]. The existence of this
relationship is further supported in the published Letters of
Edward [II], Prince of Wales, which Douglas also cites as
identifying this same Richard de Burgh (called "Earl of Ulster"
in the specific letter) as "cousin" [2].
The ancestry of Richard de Burgh is relatively well known,
with the significant exception of his great-grandmother, the wife
of William de Burgh, lord of Connaught (d. 1205). She was
previously identified as a daughter of Donnell/Domnall O'Brian,
king of Thomond: this has been corrected, as shown by Stewart
Baldwin (and possibly others) to show that this individual was
possibly a wife of William de Burgh, but not the mother of his
heir and successor in Connaught, Richard de Burgh (d. before 17
Feb 1242/3) [3]. The identity of the mother of Richard de Burgh,
ancestor of the Earls of Ulster, then reverted to "unknown".
It now appears likely that this unidentified wife of William
de Burgh was well connected with the royal house of England. This
would not be the sole example of such high association for the de
Burgh family in that generation - witness the marriages of Hubert
de Burgh, to the Countess of Gloucester as well as a daughter of
King William _the Lion_ [4].
Given the chronology both for William de Burgh and his
immediate descendants, I would suggest his wife was likely an
otherwise unidentified illegitimate daughter of Henry II of
England. Such a connection would yield the following
relationships:
~~~ NOTE: The following chart is conjectural ~~~
Eleanor = Henry II ~ _________
of Aquitaine I of England I
_______________I _ _ _ _ _
I I
John of England William de Burgh = NN
I d. 1205 I
I ____________I
I I
Henry III of England Richard de Burgh = bef 21 Apr 1225
I d. bef Feb 1242/3 I
I _____________I
I I
* EDWARD I of Walter de Burgh = Aveline FitzJohn
England d. 28 July 1271 I
I ____________________I________
I I I
* EDWARD II of RICHARD DE BURGH Giles (Egidia)
England d bef 29 Jul 1326 = James the Stewart
I * "Cousin" [E I, E II] I
I = Margaret [de Guines ?] I
I ____I_______ I
I I I I
** EDWARD III of V Elizabeth Walter the Stewart
England = Robert _the_ = Marjory Bruce
I Bruce (2nd wife) I
V I I
V ROBERT II
KING OF SCOTS
** "Our Cousin" [E III]
If such was the relationship of the de Burghs of Ulster to the
royal family of England, Richard de Burgh (d. 1326) was 2nd cousin
1x removed to Edward I and 3rd cousin to Edward II, both of whom
addressed him as "cousin". Robert II of Scotland, addressed by
Edward III of England as "our cousin", would then have been 4th
cousin 1x removed to that English king. Interestingly, it would
also make Elizabeth de Burgh, 2nd wife of Robert I (the Bruce) of
Scotland, a 2nd cousin 2x removed to her captor (in 1306) Edward
I of England.
Good luck, and good hunting.
John *
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