ALICE ____ WIFE OF JOHN HOARE
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Bryant Smith
ALICE ____ WIFE OF JOHN HOARE
In a post here on 8 March 2004, Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote of the last
generation of a prposed descent from Richard Fettiplace m Elizabeth
Bessiles, that is of the proposed marriage of Alice Lisle d.1697 m
..John Hoar b 1616 d. 1704 Concord, Mass --
"Nothing on this couple. But they are in the DNB article on Alice
Lisle
née Beckonshaw."
However on checking the cited DNB article I find mention of two
daughters of Lady Beckonsaw (widow of the regicide) and their second
marriages, but no mention of a daughter named Alice.
The Alice=John marriage is found in many pedigrees but I have found
none giving a respectable source, and several references to John Hoare
give his wife only as "Alice ____" while one positively asserts
(without citing authority) that the attribution of Alice to Lady
Beckonsaw is a mistake.
Is there any authority, one way of the other, on whether Alice was a
daughter of Lady Beckonsaw?
Thanks
Bryant Smith
Playa Palo Seco, Costa Rica
generation of a prposed descent from Richard Fettiplace m Elizabeth
Bessiles, that is of the proposed marriage of Alice Lisle d.1697 m
..John Hoar b 1616 d. 1704 Concord, Mass --
"Nothing on this couple. But they are in the DNB article on Alice
Lisle
née Beckonshaw."
However on checking the cited DNB article I find mention of two
daughters of Lady Beckonsaw (widow of the regicide) and their second
marriages, but no mention of a daughter named Alice.
The Alice=John marriage is found in many pedigrees but I have found
none giving a respectable source, and several references to John Hoare
give his wife only as "Alice ____" while one positively asserts
(without citing authority) that the attribution of Alice to Lady
Beckonsaw is a mistake.
Is there any authority, one way of the other, on whether Alice was a
daughter of Lady Beckonsaw?
Thanks
Bryant Smith
Playa Palo Seco, Costa Rica
-
Henry Berg
Re: ALICE ____ WIFE OF JOHN HOARE
There is an abstract of the will of Alice (Beconsawe) Lisle, and a
pedigree of the Lisle family in (I believe) Miscellania Genealogica et
Heraldica, wich shows the following family for John Lisle and his
wife. Unfortunately, my computer deleted references during a crash,
so the article may have also appeared in an early article in The
Genealogist (British series, not the later US publication). At any
rate, since Alice and John were not married until 1636, it is unlikely
that she had a daughter who was married to a man born about 1615. The
confusion seems to have arisen because Alice DID have a daughter
Bridget, whose first husband was Rev. Leonard Hoar. Bridget's second
husband was Hezekiah Usher, of Boston, and Bridget apparently died
there in 1723. The following is taken from one of the sources above:
12.--- JOHN LISLE, of Wootton Park, Isle of Wight, Crux Easton, co.
Hants., Holt, Bradford-on-Avon, co. Wilts., & Moyles Court, co.
Hants., * ca. 1610 + 11 Aug 1664 at Lausanne, Switzerland, son of Sir
William Lisle, of Wootton Park, Isle of Wight, and Bridget Hungerford,
married first 15 Feb 1631/2 at Highgate, co. Midx., , ELIZABETH (MARY)
HOBART (* 17 Mar 1608/9, bap. 21 Mar at St. Anne's, Blackfriars + 15
Mar 1632/3, bur. 17 Mar at Highgate), dau. of Sir Henry Hobart, 1
Baronet, of Intwood, and Dorothy Bell. They had no children. He
married second 23 Oct 1636 at Ellingham, co. Hants., ALICE BECONSAWE
(* ca. 1617 + 2 Sep 1685, executed at Winchester Castle; will dat. 9
Jun 1682, pr. 11 Nov 1689), dau. and coheiress of Sir White Beconsawe,
of Moyles Court, Ellingham, co. Hants., and Alice White. They had
eight children:
13.--- BECONSAWE LISLE, * in or bef. 1638 + 1658, unmarried
13.--- JOHN LISLE, of Dibden & Moyles Court, * ----, bur. 24 Aug
1709 at Dibden, married first, CATHERINE CROOKE; married second, ANNE
HOWE
13.--- BRIDGET LISLE, * ---- + 25 May 1723, married first, Rev.
LEONARD HOARE; married second, HEZEKIAH USHER, of Boston,
Massachusetts
13.--- TRYPHENA LISLE, * ---- living 1698, married first, RICHARD
LLOYD, of London; married second, ROBERT GROVE, of Ferne House, co.
Wilts.
13.--- MARGARET LISLE, * ----, bur. 27 Mar 1686 at Fordingbridge,
married ROBERT WHITAKER
13.--- MARY LISLE, * ----, living unmarried Jun 1682. No further
information.
13.--- MABELLA LISLE, * ----, living unmarried Jun 1682. No further
information.
13.--- ANNE LISLE, * in or aft. 1661 (under 21, 1682) + 17 Feb 1708,
married ...... HARFELL
Hope this helps to clear up a confusion between the Hoar & Lisle
marriages. Right couple, wrong people.
Best regards,
Henry Berg
pedigree of the Lisle family in (I believe) Miscellania Genealogica et
Heraldica, wich shows the following family for John Lisle and his
wife. Unfortunately, my computer deleted references during a crash,
so the article may have also appeared in an early article in The
Genealogist (British series, not the later US publication). At any
rate, since Alice and John were not married until 1636, it is unlikely
that she had a daughter who was married to a man born about 1615. The
confusion seems to have arisen because Alice DID have a daughter
Bridget, whose first husband was Rev. Leonard Hoar. Bridget's second
husband was Hezekiah Usher, of Boston, and Bridget apparently died
there in 1723. The following is taken from one of the sources above:
12.--- JOHN LISLE, of Wootton Park, Isle of Wight, Crux Easton, co.
Hants., Holt, Bradford-on-Avon, co. Wilts., & Moyles Court, co.
Hants., * ca. 1610 + 11 Aug 1664 at Lausanne, Switzerland, son of Sir
William Lisle, of Wootton Park, Isle of Wight, and Bridget Hungerford,
married first 15 Feb 1631/2 at Highgate, co. Midx., , ELIZABETH (MARY)
HOBART (* 17 Mar 1608/9, bap. 21 Mar at St. Anne's, Blackfriars + 15
Mar 1632/3, bur. 17 Mar at Highgate), dau. of Sir Henry Hobart, 1
Baronet, of Intwood, and Dorothy Bell. They had no children. He
married second 23 Oct 1636 at Ellingham, co. Hants., ALICE BECONSAWE
(* ca. 1617 + 2 Sep 1685, executed at Winchester Castle; will dat. 9
Jun 1682, pr. 11 Nov 1689), dau. and coheiress of Sir White Beconsawe,
of Moyles Court, Ellingham, co. Hants., and Alice White. They had
eight children:
13.--- BECONSAWE LISLE, * in or bef. 1638 + 1658, unmarried
13.--- JOHN LISLE, of Dibden & Moyles Court, * ----, bur. 24 Aug
1709 at Dibden, married first, CATHERINE CROOKE; married second, ANNE
HOWE
13.--- BRIDGET LISLE, * ---- + 25 May 1723, married first, Rev.
LEONARD HOARE; married second, HEZEKIAH USHER, of Boston,
Massachusetts
13.--- TRYPHENA LISLE, * ---- living 1698, married first, RICHARD
LLOYD, of London; married second, ROBERT GROVE, of Ferne House, co.
Wilts.
13.--- MARGARET LISLE, * ----, bur. 27 Mar 1686 at Fordingbridge,
married ROBERT WHITAKER
13.--- MARY LISLE, * ----, living unmarried Jun 1682. No further
information.
13.--- MABELLA LISLE, * ----, living unmarried Jun 1682. No further
information.
13.--- ANNE LISLE, * in or aft. 1661 (under 21, 1682) + 17 Feb 1708,
married ...... HARFELL
Hope this helps to clear up a confusion between the Hoar & Lisle
marriages. Right couple, wrong people.
Best regards,
Henry Berg
-
Henry Berg
Re: ALICE ____ WIFE OF JOHN HOARE
There is an abstract of the will of Alice (Beconsawe) Lisle, and a
pedigree of the Lisle family in (I believe) Miscellania Genealogica et
Heraldica, wich shows the following family for John Lisle and his
wife. Unfortunately, my computer deleted references during a crash,
so the article may have also appeared in an early article in The
Genealogist (British series, not the later US publication). At any
rate, since Alice and John were not married until 1636, it is unlikely
that she had a daughter who was married to a man born about 1615. The
confusion seems to have arisen because Alice DID have a daughter
Bridget, whose first husband was Rev. Leonard Hoar. Bridget's second
husband was Hezekiah Usher, of Boston, and Bridget apparently died
there in 1723. The following is taken from one of the sources above:
12.--- JOHN LISLE, of Wootton Park, Isle of Wight, Crux Easton, co.
Hants., Holt, Bradford-on-Avon, co. Wilts., & Moyles Court, co.
Hants., * ca. 1610 + 11 Aug 1664 at Lausanne, Switzerland, son of Sir
William Lisle, of Wootton Park, Isle of Wight, and Bridget Hungerford,
married first 15 Feb 1631/2 at Highgate, co. Midx., , ELIZABETH (MARY)
HOBART (* 17 Mar 1608/9, bap. 21 Mar at St. Anne's, Blackfriars + 15
Mar 1632/3, bur. 17 Mar at Highgate), dau. of Sir Henry Hobart, 1
Baronet, of Intwood, and Dorothy Bell. They had no children. He
married second 23 Oct 1636 at Ellingham, co. Hants., ALICE BECONSAWE
(* ca. 1617 + 2 Sep 1685, executed at Winchester Castle; will dat. 9
Jun 1682, pr. 11 Nov 1689), dau. and coheiress of Sir White Beconsawe,
of Moyles Court, Ellingham, co. Hants., and Alice White. They had
eight children:
13.--- BECONSAWE LISLE, * in or bef. 1638 + 1658, unmarried
13.--- JOHN LISLE, of Dibden & Moyles Court, * ----, bur. 24 Aug
1709 at Dibden, married first, CATHERINE CROOKE; married second, ANNE
HOWE
13.--- BRIDGET LISLE, * ---- + 25 May 1723, married first, Rev.
LEONARD HOARE; married second, HEZEKIAH USHER, of Boston,
Massachusetts
13.--- TRYPHENA LISLE, * ---- living 1698, married first, RICHARD
LLOYD, of London; married second, ROBERT GROVE, of Ferne House, co.
Wilts.
13.--- MARGARET LISLE, * ----, bur. 27 Mar 1686 at Fordingbridge,
married ROBERT WHITAKER
13.--- MARY LISLE, * ----, living unmarried Jun 1682. No further
information.
13.--- MABELLA LISLE, * ----, living unmarried Jun 1682. No further
information.
13.--- ANNE LISLE, * in or aft. 1661 (under 21, 1682) + 17 Feb 1708,
married ...... HARFELL
Hope this helps to clear up a confusion between the Hoar & Lisle
marriages. Right couple, wrong people.
Best regards,
Henry Berg
pedigree of the Lisle family in (I believe) Miscellania Genealogica et
Heraldica, wich shows the following family for John Lisle and his
wife. Unfortunately, my computer deleted references during a crash,
so the article may have also appeared in an early article in The
Genealogist (British series, not the later US publication). At any
rate, since Alice and John were not married until 1636, it is unlikely
that she had a daughter who was married to a man born about 1615. The
confusion seems to have arisen because Alice DID have a daughter
Bridget, whose first husband was Rev. Leonard Hoar. Bridget's second
husband was Hezekiah Usher, of Boston, and Bridget apparently died
there in 1723. The following is taken from one of the sources above:
12.--- JOHN LISLE, of Wootton Park, Isle of Wight, Crux Easton, co.
Hants., Holt, Bradford-on-Avon, co. Wilts., & Moyles Court, co.
Hants., * ca. 1610 + 11 Aug 1664 at Lausanne, Switzerland, son of Sir
William Lisle, of Wootton Park, Isle of Wight, and Bridget Hungerford,
married first 15 Feb 1631/2 at Highgate, co. Midx., , ELIZABETH (MARY)
HOBART (* 17 Mar 1608/9, bap. 21 Mar at St. Anne's, Blackfriars + 15
Mar 1632/3, bur. 17 Mar at Highgate), dau. of Sir Henry Hobart, 1
Baronet, of Intwood, and Dorothy Bell. They had no children. He
married second 23 Oct 1636 at Ellingham, co. Hants., ALICE BECONSAWE
(* ca. 1617 + 2 Sep 1685, executed at Winchester Castle; will dat. 9
Jun 1682, pr. 11 Nov 1689), dau. and coheiress of Sir White Beconsawe,
of Moyles Court, Ellingham, co. Hants., and Alice White. They had
eight children:
13.--- BECONSAWE LISLE, * in or bef. 1638 + 1658, unmarried
13.--- JOHN LISLE, of Dibden & Moyles Court, * ----, bur. 24 Aug
1709 at Dibden, married first, CATHERINE CROOKE; married second, ANNE
HOWE
13.--- BRIDGET LISLE, * ---- + 25 May 1723, married first, Rev.
LEONARD HOARE; married second, HEZEKIAH USHER, of Boston,
Massachusetts
13.--- TRYPHENA LISLE, * ---- living 1698, married first, RICHARD
LLOYD, of London; married second, ROBERT GROVE, of Ferne House, co.
Wilts.
13.--- MARGARET LISLE, * ----, bur. 27 Mar 1686 at Fordingbridge,
married ROBERT WHITAKER
13.--- MARY LISLE, * ----, living unmarried Jun 1682. No further
information.
13.--- MABELLA LISLE, * ----, living unmarried Jun 1682. No further
information.
13.--- ANNE LISLE, * in or aft. 1661 (under 21, 1682) + 17 Feb 1708,
married ...... HARFELL
Hope this helps to clear up a confusion between the Hoar & Lisle
marriages. Right couple, wrong people.
Best regards,
Henry Berg
-
Bryant Smith
Re: ALICE ____ WIFE OF JOHN HOARE
Thank you, Henry. However it seems the issue is not all that free of
doubt.
I received from a lurker last Monday the following information
(redacted to
preserve anonymity as requested):
Begin quotation
================
Alice Lisle was indeed the daughter of Sir John Lisle and Lady Alicia
Beacomsawe
Here are sources on Alice LISLE and she was the daughter of Sir John
LISLE
and Lady Alicia Becomsawe.
According to the New England Families Genealogical&Memorial--she
indeed was
the wife of John Hoar.
The New England Families G&M state that Alice Lisle--sister of
Bridget
Lisle--Bridget married Leonard Hoare and Alice Lisle married John
Hoare.
John and Leonard were brothers. John Hoare was a lawyer and it
mentions
that Alice was the daughter of Lord John Lisle, president of the High
Court
of Justice, Lord Commissioner of the Great Seal who drew the
indictment and
sentence of King Charles I and was murdered at Lausanne--August 11,
1664.
And Lady Alice Lisle the mother of Alice Lisle Hoare was beheaded.
It
mentions the children of John Hoar and Alice Lisle--Elizabeth married
Jonathan Prescott, Mary married Benjamin Graves
Also Alice is listed in The Lineage and Family Records of Alfred
Wyman Hoar
and his Wife Josephine Jackson, Eagle Printing Company, Delano, Minn
1898
Alice is also listed in the Ancestors of David Eyre--Publication Oct
26,
2000
Alice is also listed in the Ancestry World Tree--Dec 14, 2000
Alice is listed in the Pioneers of Massachusetts, A Descriptive List
Drawn
from Records of Colonies, Towns and Churches and other
Comtempraneous
Documents. Author: Charles Henry Pope
Published 1900--originally published in Boston,
Massachusetts--Reprinted
by
Genealogical Publishing Company, Inc Baltimore, Maryland, 1998
Alice is listed in the Watertown Genealogies--Genealogies of Families
and
Descendants of the Early Settlers of Watertown, Massachusetts,
including
Waltham and Weston, to which is appended with the Early History of
the
Town
with Maps and Notes--Second Edition with a Memoir of the author,
Horatio
Gates Jones--Two volumes in one--Author Henry Bond
Published by the N. E. Historic-Genealogical Society for the Benefit
of
the
"Bond Fund" 1860
Alice is listed in the Concord, Massachusetts Vital Records
Title: Concord, Massachusetts: Births, Marriages, and Deaths
1635-1850
Publication:Concord, Massachusetts--Printed by the Town 1895
Date: May 6, 2002
Repository: Name Schusterman-Benson Library
Alice is listed in the Ancestral Files of the Church of Jesus Christ
of
Latter-Day Saints
July 1996
Family History Library
35 N. West Temple Street.
Salt Lake City, Utah 84150 USA
John Hoare and Alice Lisle were married in England-- Families
Directly
Descended from all the Royal Families of Europe Volume I
Source: Colonial Ancestors
I found a record on her in Moyles Court--Alice Lisle was born 1631
and
was not Christened until 1634. It was nothing for girls to marry at
13 or 14
at that time, but she didn't have ... Mary Hoar until 1648 and she
would of been 17. And it listed her father as Sir John Lisle and
mother Lady Alicia "Alice" Beacomsawe
===============
End quotation
Some of the private family genealogies cited may be discounted, and
certainly
the Ancestral File should be; but the NEHGR, Moyles Court and Concord
Vital Records references are very telling, if they are as described.
Saludos from Costa Rica
Bryant
haknberg@yahoo.com (Henry Berg) wrote in message news:<90e76441.0410151522.7000ea49@posting.google.com>...
doubt.
I received from a lurker last Monday the following information
(redacted to
preserve anonymity as requested):
Begin quotation
================
Alice Lisle was indeed the daughter of Sir John Lisle and Lady Alicia
Beacomsawe
Here are sources on Alice LISLE and she was the daughter of Sir John
LISLE
and Lady Alicia Becomsawe.
According to the New England Families Genealogical&Memorial--she
indeed was
the wife of John Hoar.
The New England Families G&M state that Alice Lisle--sister of
Bridget
Lisle--Bridget married Leonard Hoare and Alice Lisle married John
Hoare.
John and Leonard were brothers. John Hoare was a lawyer and it
mentions
that Alice was the daughter of Lord John Lisle, president of the High
Court
of Justice, Lord Commissioner of the Great Seal who drew the
indictment and
sentence of King Charles I and was murdered at Lausanne--August 11,
1664.
And Lady Alice Lisle the mother of Alice Lisle Hoare was beheaded.
It
mentions the children of John Hoar and Alice Lisle--Elizabeth married
Jonathan Prescott, Mary married Benjamin Graves
Also Alice is listed in The Lineage and Family Records of Alfred
Wyman Hoar
and his Wife Josephine Jackson, Eagle Printing Company, Delano, Minn
1898
Alice is also listed in the Ancestors of David Eyre--Publication Oct
26,
2000
Alice is also listed in the Ancestry World Tree--Dec 14, 2000
Alice is listed in the Pioneers of Massachusetts, A Descriptive List
Drawn
from Records of Colonies, Towns and Churches and other
Comtempraneous
Documents. Author: Charles Henry Pope
Published 1900--originally published in Boston,
Massachusetts--Reprinted
by
Genealogical Publishing Company, Inc Baltimore, Maryland, 1998
Alice is listed in the Watertown Genealogies--Genealogies of Families
and
Descendants of the Early Settlers of Watertown, Massachusetts,
including
Waltham and Weston, to which is appended with the Early History of
the
Town
with Maps and Notes--Second Edition with a Memoir of the author,
Horatio
Gates Jones--Two volumes in one--Author Henry Bond
Published by the N. E. Historic-Genealogical Society for the Benefit
of
the
"Bond Fund" 1860
Alice is listed in the Concord, Massachusetts Vital Records
Title: Concord, Massachusetts: Births, Marriages, and Deaths
1635-1850
Publication:Concord, Massachusetts--Printed by the Town 1895
Date: May 6, 2002
Repository: Name Schusterman-Benson Library
Alice is listed in the Ancestral Files of the Church of Jesus Christ
of
Latter-Day Saints
July 1996
Family History Library
35 N. West Temple Street.
Salt Lake City, Utah 84150 USA
John Hoare and Alice Lisle were married in England-- Families
Directly
Descended from all the Royal Families of Europe Volume I
Source: Colonial Ancestors
I found a record on her in Moyles Court--Alice Lisle was born 1631
and
was not Christened until 1634. It was nothing for girls to marry at
13 or 14
at that time, but she didn't have ... Mary Hoar until 1648 and she
would of been 17. And it listed her father as Sir John Lisle and
mother Lady Alicia "Alice" Beacomsawe
===============
End quotation
Some of the private family genealogies cited may be discounted, and
certainly
the Ancestral File should be; but the NEHGR, Moyles Court and Concord
Vital Records references are very telling, if they are as described.
Saludos from Costa Rica
Bryant
haknberg@yahoo.com (Henry Berg) wrote in message news:<90e76441.0410151522.7000ea49@posting.google.com>...
There is an abstract of the will of Alice (Beconsawe) Lisle, and a
pedigree of the Lisle family in (I believe) Miscellania Genealogica et
Heraldica, wich shows the following family for John Lisle and his
wife. Unfortunately, my computer deleted references during a crash,
so the article may have also appeared in an early article in The
Genealogist (British series, not the later US publication). At any
rate, since Alice and John were not married until 1636, it is unlikely
that she had a daughter who was married to a man born about 1615. The
confusion seems to have arisen because Alice DID have a daughter
Bridget, whose first husband was Rev. Leonard Hoar. Bridget's second
husband was Hezekiah Usher, of Boston, and Bridget apparently died
there in 1723. The following is taken from one of the sources above:
12.--- JOHN LISLE, of Wootton Park, Isle of Wight, Crux Easton, co.
Hants., Holt, Bradford-on-Avon, co. Wilts., & Moyles Court, co.
Hants., * ca. 1610 + 11 Aug 1664 at Lausanne, Switzerland, son of Sir
William Lisle, of Wootton Park, Isle of Wight, and Bridget Hungerford,
married first 15 Feb 1631/2 at Highgate, co. Midx., , ELIZABETH (MARY)
HOBART (* 17 Mar 1608/9, bap. 21 Mar at St. Anne's, Blackfriars + 15
Mar 1632/3, bur. 17 Mar at Highgate), dau. of Sir Henry Hobart, 1
Baronet, of Intwood, and Dorothy Bell. They had no children. He
married second 23 Oct 1636 at Ellingham, co. Hants., ALICE BECONSAWE
(* ca. 1617 + 2 Sep 1685, executed at Winchester Castle; will dat. 9
Jun 1682, pr. 11 Nov 1689), dau. and coheiress of Sir White Beconsawe,
of Moyles Court, Ellingham, co. Hants., and Alice White. They had
eight children:
13.--- BECONSAWE LISLE, * in or bef. 1638 + 1658, unmarried
13.--- JOHN LISLE, of Dibden & Moyles Court, * ----, bur. 24 Aug
1709 at Dibden, married first, CATHERINE CROOKE; married second, ANNE
HOWE
13.--- BRIDGET LISLE, * ---- + 25 May 1723, married first, Rev.
LEONARD HOARE; married second, HEZEKIAH USHER, of Boston,
Massachusetts
13.--- TRYPHENA LISLE, * ---- living 1698, married first, RICHARD
LLOYD, of London; married second, ROBERT GROVE, of Ferne House, co.
Wilts.
13.--- MARGARET LISLE, * ----, bur. 27 Mar 1686 at Fordingbridge,
married ROBERT WHITAKER
13.--- MARY LISLE, * ----, living unmarried Jun 1682. No further
information.
13.--- MABELLA LISLE, * ----, living unmarried Jun 1682. No further
information.
13.--- ANNE LISLE, * in or aft. 1661 (under 21, 1682) + 17 Feb 1708,
married ...... HARFELL
Hope this helps to clear up a confusion between the Hoar & Lisle
marriages. Right couple, wrong people.
Best regards,
Henry Berg
-
Henry Berg
Re: ALICE ____ WIFE OF JOHN HOARE
Dear Bryant:
I am still trying to locate my photocopy of the Lisle article (in, I
believe, the British periodical "The Genealogist", one of the earlier
series.) However, the material posted by you through the "lurker" has
several problems.
First, it is indicated that Alice, daughter of Alice Beconsawe and
John Lisle, was born in 1631 and baptised in 1634. John Lisle had no
wife in 1631 (he married his first wife in 1631/2), nor did he have
one in 1634. The Lisle pedigree indicates that John Lisle and Alice
Beconsawe were not married until October 1636, and this is confirmed
by "Complete Peerage", vol. IV, Appendix G (page 622, biography of
John Lisle).
Thus, John and Alice (Beconsawe) Lisle could not have had a child
before 1637, unless it was illegitimate. It would seem extremely
unlikely that he would have had a child by Alice Beconsawe (an
heiress) in 1631, married someone else in 1632, and then marry Alice
in 1636.
There seems to be no original record of the birth of Mary, daughter of
John Hoar, in the records of Concord, Massachusetts. Mary was
evidently married there in 1668, but I have been unable to determine
the source of the idea that she was born in 1648. If she was, then
her alleged mother "Alice Lisle" would have been at most eleven years
of age, if she were a legitimate daughter of Alice (Beconsawe) Lisle.
Moyles Court is in the parish of Ellingham, Hampshire. The parish
registers have been microfilmed by the LDS church and are available on
both microfilm and microfiche. Baptisms begin in 1602, so perhaps a
search would be in order to see if any of John and Alice (Beconsawe)
Lisle's children were baptised there, and would also confirm the
marriage date of John and Alice Lisle.
Hopefully, this is of some assistance. I am still trying to locate
some notes on a possible identification of Leonard Hoare, wife of
Bridget Lisle.
Hope this helps.
Henry Berg
I am still trying to locate my photocopy of the Lisle article (in, I
believe, the British periodical "The Genealogist", one of the earlier
series.) However, the material posted by you through the "lurker" has
several problems.
First, it is indicated that Alice, daughter of Alice Beconsawe and
John Lisle, was born in 1631 and baptised in 1634. John Lisle had no
wife in 1631 (he married his first wife in 1631/2), nor did he have
one in 1634. The Lisle pedigree indicates that John Lisle and Alice
Beconsawe were not married until October 1636, and this is confirmed
by "Complete Peerage", vol. IV, Appendix G (page 622, biography of
John Lisle).
Thus, John and Alice (Beconsawe) Lisle could not have had a child
before 1637, unless it was illegitimate. It would seem extremely
unlikely that he would have had a child by Alice Beconsawe (an
heiress) in 1631, married someone else in 1632, and then marry Alice
in 1636.
There seems to be no original record of the birth of Mary, daughter of
John Hoar, in the records of Concord, Massachusetts. Mary was
evidently married there in 1668, but I have been unable to determine
the source of the idea that she was born in 1648. If she was, then
her alleged mother "Alice Lisle" would have been at most eleven years
of age, if she were a legitimate daughter of Alice (Beconsawe) Lisle.
Moyles Court is in the parish of Ellingham, Hampshire. The parish
registers have been microfilmed by the LDS church and are available on
both microfilm and microfiche. Baptisms begin in 1602, so perhaps a
search would be in order to see if any of John and Alice (Beconsawe)
Lisle's children were baptised there, and would also confirm the
marriage date of John and Alice Lisle.
Hopefully, this is of some assistance. I am still trying to locate
some notes on a possible identification of Leonard Hoare, wife of
Bridget Lisle.
Hope this helps.
Henry Berg
-
Gjest
Re: ALICE ____ WIFE OF JOHN HOARE
In a message dated 10/20/04 3:43:48 AM Central Daylight Time,
skip31@racsa.co.cr quotes his anonymous correspondent:
A complete citation for such a record would be of great interest to
descendants of John Hoare. Can the author of the above excerpt provide it?
skip31@racsa.co.cr quotes his anonymous correspondent:
I found a record on her in Moyles Court--Alice Lisle was born 1631 and
was not Christened until 1634. It was nothing for girls to marry at
13 or 14 at that time, but she didn't have ... Mary Hoar until 1648 and she
would of been 17. And it listed her father as Sir John Lisle and
mother Lady Alicia "Alice" Beacomsawe
A complete citation for such a record would be of great interest to
descendants of John Hoare. Can the author of the above excerpt provide it?
-
Bryant Smith
Re: ALICE ____ WIFE OF JOHN HOARE
Dear Henry:
You are quite right about the chronological discrepancy. I have a CP
citation for a marriage of John Lisle and Alice Beckonsaw in Ellingham
on 27 October 1636, which does seem to embarrass a birthdate of 1631,
or even 1634, for a daughter Alice by Ms. Beckonsaw.
But chronology be damned, let's somebody check out the Ellingham
records. I can't, I don't think the Mormons have discovered Costa
Rica yet, and I haven't come across a microfilm or microfiche reader
here, either.
Saludos from the beach
Bryant
hankberg@yahoo.com (Henry Berg) wrote in message news:<90e76441.0410201417.223ca54@posting.google.com>...
You are quite right about the chronological discrepancy. I have a CP
citation for a marriage of John Lisle and Alice Beckonsaw in Ellingham
on 27 October 1636, which does seem to embarrass a birthdate of 1631,
or even 1634, for a daughter Alice by Ms. Beckonsaw.
But chronology be damned, let's somebody check out the Ellingham
records. I can't, I don't think the Mormons have discovered Costa
Rica yet, and I haven't come across a microfilm or microfiche reader
here, either.
Saludos from the beach
Bryant
hankberg@yahoo.com (Henry Berg) wrote in message news:<90e76441.0410201417.223ca54@posting.google.com>...
Dear Bryant:
I am still trying to locate my photocopy of the Lisle article (in, I
believe, the British periodical "The Genealogist", one of the earlier
series.) However, the material posted by you through the "lurker" has
several problems.
First, it is indicated that Alice, daughter of Alice Beconsawe and
John Lisle, was born in 1631 and baptised in 1634. John Lisle had no
wife in 1631 (he married his first wife in 1631/2), nor did he have
one in 1634. The Lisle pedigree indicates that John Lisle and Alice
Beconsawe were not married until October 1636, and this is confirmed
by "Complete Peerage", vol. IV, Appendix G (page 622, biography of
John Lisle).
Thus, John and Alice (Beconsawe) Lisle could not have had a child
before 1637, unless it was illegitimate. It would seem extremely
unlikely that he would have had a child by Alice Beconsawe (an
heiress) in 1631, married someone else in 1632, and then marry Alice
in 1636.
There seems to be no original record of the birth of Mary, daughter of
John Hoar, in the records of Concord, Massachusetts. Mary was
evidently married there in 1668, but I have been unable to determine
the source of the idea that she was born in 1648. If she was, then
her alleged mother "Alice Lisle" would have been at most eleven years
of age, if she were a legitimate daughter of Alice (Beconsawe) Lisle.
Moyles Court is in the parish of Ellingham, Hampshire. The parish
registers have been microfilmed by the LDS church and are available on
both microfilm and microfiche. Baptisms begin in 1602, so perhaps a
search would be in order to see if any of John and Alice (Beconsawe)
Lisle's children were baptised there, and would also confirm the
marriage date of John and Alice Lisle.
Hopefully, this is of some assistance. I am still trying to locate
some notes on a possible identification of Leonard Hoare, wife of
Bridget Lisle.
Hope this helps.
Henry Berg
-
Bryant Smith
Re: ALICE ____ WIFE OF JOHN HOARE
Let's elect Douglas Richardson for this task. The issue is a very
important one. Alice Lisle, if she existed, was a 17th Century
immigrant to America as was her husband John Hoare. Her putative
mother Alice Beckonsaw has a pedigree gong back to Edward III and all
that implies. Moreover at the level of Edward I *BOTH* Eleanor of
Castile and Marguerite of France are hanging in her tree. She may,in
short, have given us a very valuable "gateway" if she was John Hoare's
mother in law -- and would add to Douglas' next edition. And hw ia
virtually across the street from the micro records.
DorPartsch@aol.com wrote in message news:<19b.2b05afe3.2ea83d1a@aol.com>...
important one. Alice Lisle, if she existed, was a 17th Century
immigrant to America as was her husband John Hoare. Her putative
mother Alice Beckonsaw has a pedigree gong back to Edward III and all
that implies. Moreover at the level of Edward I *BOTH* Eleanor of
Castile and Marguerite of France are hanging in her tree. She may,in
short, have given us a very valuable "gateway" if she was John Hoare's
mother in law -- and would add to Douglas' next edition. And hw ia
virtually across the street from the micro records.
DorPartsch@aol.com wrote in message news:<19b.2b05afe3.2ea83d1a@aol.com>...
In a message dated 10/20/04 3:43:48 AM Central Daylight Time,
skip31@racsa.co.cr quotes his anonymous correspondent:
I found a record on her in Moyles Court--Alice Lisle was born 1631 and
was not Christened until 1634. It was nothing for girls to marry at
13 or 14 at that time, but she didn't have ... Mary Hoar until 1648 and she
would of been 17. And it listed her father as Sir John Lisle and
mother Lady Alicia "Alice" Beacomsawe
A complete citation for such a record would be of great interest to
descendants of John Hoare. Can the author of the above excerpt provide it?
-
allenk@pacbell.net
Re: ALICE ____ WIFE OF JOHN HOARE
If I remember correctly, a Lislw/Beconsaw dtr. married Leonard Hoar.
I do not know that Alice's maiden name has ev er been accurately stated.
K
Original Message:
-----------------
From: skip31@racsa.co.cr (Bryant Smith)
Date: 21 Oct 2004 13:05:37 -0700
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: ALICE ____ WIFE OF JOHN HOARE
Let's elect Douglas Richardson for this task. The issue is a very
important one. Alice Lisle, if she existed, was a 17th Century
immigrant to America as was her husband John Hoare. Her putative
mother Alice Beckonsaw has a pedigree gong back to Edward III and all
that implies. Moreover at the level of Edward I *BOTH* Eleanor of
Castile and Marguerite of France are hanging in her tree. She may,in
short, have given us a very valuable "gateway" if she was John Hoare's
mother in law -- and would add to Douglas' next edition. And hw ia
virtually across the street from the micro records.
DorPartsch@aol.com wrote in message news:<19b.2b05afe3.2ea83d1a@aol.com>...
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I do not know that Alice's maiden name has ev er been accurately stated.
K
Original Message:
-----------------
From: skip31@racsa.co.cr (Bryant Smith)
Date: 21 Oct 2004 13:05:37 -0700
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: ALICE ____ WIFE OF JOHN HOARE
Let's elect Douglas Richardson for this task. The issue is a very
important one. Alice Lisle, if she existed, was a 17th Century
immigrant to America as was her husband John Hoare. Her putative
mother Alice Beckonsaw has a pedigree gong back to Edward III and all
that implies. Moreover at the level of Edward I *BOTH* Eleanor of
Castile and Marguerite of France are hanging in her tree. She may,in
short, have given us a very valuable "gateway" if she was John Hoare's
mother in law -- and would add to Douglas' next edition. And hw ia
virtually across the street from the micro records.
DorPartsch@aol.com wrote in message news:<19b.2b05afe3.2ea83d1a@aol.com>...
In a message dated 10/20/04 3:43:48 AM Central Daylight Time,
skip31@racsa.co.cr quotes his anonymous correspondent:
I found a record on her in Moyles Court--Alice Lisle was born 1631 and
was not Christened until 1634. It was nothing for girls to marry at
13 or 14 at that time, but she didn't have ... Mary Hoar until 1648 and
she
would of been 17. And it listed her father as Sir John Lisle and
mother Lady Alicia "Alice" Beacomsawe
A complete citation for such a record would be of great interest to
descendants of John Hoare. Can the author of the above excerpt provide
it?
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http://mail2web.com/ .