William de Burgh or de Burgo, d. 1205/6, was ancestor of both
the earls of Ulster and of the gaelicized Burkes of Clanricarde.
He is Said to have married a daughter of Domnall Mor O'Brien, King of
Thomond.
Until recently I have believed that he had two sons named Richard,
the elder being ancestor of the earls of Ulster and the younger
ancestor of the Clanricarde Burkes. See A New History of Ireland
9:170. The O'Brien daughter is supposed to have been mother
only of the younger Richard.
The new Oxford DNB, in its biographies of William de Burgh and
Richard de Burgh, says that William had only one son Richard,
ancestor of both the Ulster earls and the Clanricarde Burkes.
While the biographer of William expresses some skepticism
about the O'Brien marriage, as asserted by a late medieval
genealogy, it admits it is perfectly plausible and there seems to
be no evidence to contradict it. Since the genealogy says that
the O'Brian was mother of William's son Richard, if there was
only one Richard it would appear that the Ulster earls and their
many descendants share the O'Brien descent.
The only recent source cited in either of the de Burgh biographies
is A New History of Ireland 2:156-78, reprinted with corrections
in 1993. I have not yet been able to get hold of the corrected
version to see whether it supports ODNB in its assertion that
William had only one son Richard.
Be the way, I was a bit surprised to see ODNB give the surname
as "de Burgh." These days one usually sees it as de Burgo, due
perhaps to the influence of Sir Ian Moncrieffe, who wrote that
"de Burgh" was an absurd and unhistorical modern invention.
de Burgh
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Kelsey J. Williams
Re: de Burgh
bclagett@cov.com ("Clagett, Brice") wrote in message news:<B1F75BF666FCFD4F9B3EA0D0A58482BD0382D4E3@cbiexm01dc.cov.com>...
Hello,
What you say is very interesting. I too have been somewhat skeptical
of the "two Richards" theory as the earliest document I can find this
mentioned in is Torna mac Torna O'Mulconry's genealogical tract on the
Burkes, Butlers, and Fitzgeralds written temp. Elizabeth I (online at:
http://members.aol.com/lochlan2/burkes.htm).
If it can be proved that there was only one Richard I think it would
be fairly safe to say that he was indeed the son of a daughter of
Domnall Mor. Although the only source which makes this claim was
written sometime after 1378, it deals with the genealogy of the Ui
Maine and has no particular reason to invent a wife for Richard de
Burgh (see Stewart Baldwin's post on this subject on 29 Nov 1998).
Sincerely,
Kelsey J. Williams
William de Burgh or de Burgo, d. 1205/6, was ancestor of both
the earls of Ulster and of the gaelicized Burkes of Clanricarde.
He is Said to have married a daughter of Domnall Mor O'Brien, King of
Thomond.
Until recently I have believed that he had two sons named Richard,
the elder being ancestor of the earls of Ulster and the younger
ancestor of the Clanricarde Burkes. See A New History of Ireland
9:170. The O'Brien daughter is supposed to have been mother
only of the younger Richard.
The new Oxford DNB, in its biographies of William de Burgh and
Richard de Burgh, says that William had only one son Richard,
ancestor of both the Ulster earls and the Clanricarde Burkes.
While the biographer of William expresses some skepticism
about the O'Brien marriage, as asserted by a late medieval
genealogy, it admits it is perfectly plausible and there seems to
be no evidence to contradict it. Since the genealogy says that
the O'Brian was mother of William's son Richard, if there was
only one Richard it would appear that the Ulster earls and their
many descendants share the O'Brien descent.
The only recent source cited in either of the de Burgh biographies
is A New History of Ireland 2:156-78, reprinted with corrections
in 1993. I have not yet been able to get hold of the corrected
version to see whether it supports ODNB in its assertion that
William had only one son Richard.
Be the way, I was a bit surprised to see ODNB give the surname
as "de Burgh." These days one usually sees it as de Burgo, due
perhaps to the influence of Sir Ian Moncrieffe, who wrote that
"de Burgh" was an absurd and unhistorical modern invention.
Hello,
What you say is very interesting. I too have been somewhat skeptical
of the "two Richards" theory as the earliest document I can find this
mentioned in is Torna mac Torna O'Mulconry's genealogical tract on the
Burkes, Butlers, and Fitzgeralds written temp. Elizabeth I (online at:
http://members.aol.com/lochlan2/burkes.htm).
If it can be proved that there was only one Richard I think it would
be fairly safe to say that he was indeed the son of a daughter of
Domnall Mor. Although the only source which makes this claim was
written sometime after 1378, it deals with the genealogy of the Ui
Maine and has no particular reason to invent a wife for Richard de
Burgh (see Stewart Baldwin's post on this subject on 29 Nov 1998).
Sincerely,
Kelsey J. Williams
-
Gjest
Re: de Burgh
In a message dated 13/10/04 14:55:59 GMT Daylight Time,
gkkwilliams@cowboy.net writes:
Stewart Baldwin's post of 02 Feb 03 is also on this subject (thread _Re :
Richard Burgh, Egidia Lacy_), but with less detail.
Adrian
gkkwilliams@cowboy.net writes:
(see Stewart Baldwin's post on this subject on 29 Nov 1998).
Sincerely,
Kelsey J. Williams
Stewart Baldwin's post of 02 Feb 03 is also on this subject (thread _Re :
Richard Burgh, Egidia Lacy_), but with less detail.
Adrian
-
Gjest
Re: de Burgh
Dear Newsgroup,
While I admire John P Ravilious` work on the sundry
lines He has commented upon on this list, I`m less than convinced that
Richard de Burgh( I )was married to a natural daughter of King Henry II of England
because that sort of alliance would have been trumpeted about far and wide.
On the other hand, if Duke Robert II of Normandy`s son William had had such a
daughter, or any known child of Henry I of England had had such a daughter
legitimate or otherwise, it might well have slipped under the `radar` and the
relationship have been close to what is being considered, likewise with a child
of Hamelin de Warrenne. I am also curious as to how established the parentage
of Margaret, wife of Richard de Burgh (II), 3rd Earl of Ulster is.
sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
While I admire John P Ravilious` work on the sundry
lines He has commented upon on this list, I`m less than convinced that
Richard de Burgh( I )was married to a natural daughter of King Henry II of England
because that sort of alliance would have been trumpeted about far and wide.
On the other hand, if Duke Robert II of Normandy`s son William had had such a
daughter, or any known child of Henry I of England had had such a daughter
legitimate or otherwise, it might well have slipped under the `radar` and the
relationship have been close to what is being considered, likewise with a child
of Hamelin de Warrenne. I am also curious as to how established the parentage
of Margaret, wife of Richard de Burgh (II), 3rd Earl of Ulster is.
sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
-
Gjest
Re: de Burgh
Friday, 15 October, 2004
Dear James, et al.,
Indeed, there'd be every reason to be skeptical re: any
suggestion that Richard de Burgh, Justiciar of Ireland (d. bef
17 Feb 1242/3) was married to an illegitimate daughter of Henry
II of England.
My suggestion was (and still is) that it was the mother of
Richard (wife of William de Burgh) who was an illegitimate
daughter (or unlikely, g-daughter) of Henry II. Richard's
well-known wife, and ancestress of the Earls of Ulster, was
Giles [Egidia] de Lacy, daughter of Walter de Lacy, lord of
Meath (d.ca. 1240).
Cheers,
John
Dear James, et al.,
Indeed, there'd be every reason to be skeptical re: any
suggestion that Richard de Burgh, Justiciar of Ireland (d. bef
17 Feb 1242/3) was married to an illegitimate daughter of Henry
II of England.
My suggestion was (and still is) that it was the mother of
Richard (wife of William de Burgh) who was an illegitimate
daughter (or unlikely, g-daughter) of Henry II. Richard's
well-known wife, and ancestress of the Earls of Ulster, was
Giles [Egidia] de Lacy, daughter of Walter de Lacy, lord of
Meath (d.ca. 1240).
Cheers,
John
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: de Burgh
Dear John ~
There is no need to employ the Latin form "Egidia" when referring to
Gille de Lacy. The vernacular form of this name is Gill or Gille, as
we see below in a document taken from the National Archives catalogue
involving the well known medieval woman, Gill Mauduit (died 1366),
wife of Sir John de Moleyns:
C 49/8/7:
Proceedings on an appeal of Gill de Moleyne from a decision in
Chancery in a case between her and Robert de Fiennes as to the manor
of Wendover, Bucks. Date: 39 Edward III [1365/6].
Giles is the vernacular male counterpart of woman's name, Gille. The
Latin form of Giles is Egidius.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Therav3@aol.com wrote in message news:<192.31130b99.2ea13277@aol.com>...
There is no need to employ the Latin form "Egidia" when referring to
Gille de Lacy. The vernacular form of this name is Gill or Gille, as
we see below in a document taken from the National Archives catalogue
involving the well known medieval woman, Gill Mauduit (died 1366),
wife of Sir John de Moleyns:
C 49/8/7:
Proceedings on an appeal of Gill de Moleyne from a decision in
Chancery in a case between her and Robert de Fiennes as to the manor
of Wendover, Bucks. Date: 39 Edward III [1365/6].
Giles is the vernacular male counterpart of woman's name, Gille. The
Latin form of Giles is Egidius.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Therav3@aol.com wrote in message news:<192.31130b99.2ea13277@aol.com>...
Friday, 15 October, 2004
Dear James, et al.,
Indeed, there'd be every reason to be skeptical re: any
suggestion that Richard de Burgh, Justiciar of Ireland (d. bef
17 Feb 1242/3) was married to an illegitimate daughter of Henry
II of England.
My suggestion was (and still is) that it was the mother of
Richard (wife of William de Burgh) who was an illegitimate
daughter (or unlikely, g-daughter) of Henry II. Richard's
well-known wife, and ancestress of the Earls of Ulster, was
Giles [Egidia] de Lacy, daughter of Walter de Lacy, lord of
Meath (d.ca. 1240).
Cheers,
John