Musa ibn Nusayr, ancestor of the Banu Qasi
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Boulus ad-Darwin
Musa ibn Nusayr, ancestor of the Banu Qasi
Hello,
I was completing the tree of the Banu Qasi, when I got stuck on this
person.
He certainly is a very interesting person, who was in very good standing
with the Ummyad Caliphate who appointed in to rule Ifriqyia replacing the
former ruler,Hassan ibn al-Naaman, who is said to have been a conqueror
and hero, but who seem to have fall in disgrace for some obscure reason.
His family was most probably a very important one, and his father must
have had known Muahmmad himself (perhaps one of the Nusayr who appear in
some Hadiths?), or perhaps he was a released slave who done very good
services to teh Ummyads?
I found an undocumented reference in a genealogy tree who deemed him as
Musa ibn Nusayr ibn Abd Rahman ibn Zaydn, but I've great doubts about the
credibility of that one. However there was an exagete who wrote some
hadiths and who is refered as Abd Rahman ibn Zayd or "Zubaid al-Iami", who
I guess (perhaps wrongly) means Zubaid the Iemeni, who would make sense
since Musa is said to be from Iemeni background.
There is also the case of his wife, who is said to have been Aysha,
perhaps the same Aysha who married Marwan I and was then repudiated (what
is the source for this?), and considering the very good relations between
Musa and the Caliphate it is not strange at all that it would have been
the same Ashya, who is said to be grand grand daughter of the Prophet
himself, according to the Sunni tradition.
On the other hand, "Nusayr" seems to stand for Christian in Syria, so
perhaps one could advance the hypotesis that Musa was of Christian
background, what would explain his fairly good relations with the Kings of
the Visigodes, with whom he may have allied prior to the invasions of 710
and 711. That would also explain the proneness of his son Abd al-Aziz to
marry the Christian Queen (who may have been herself from a Berber or Arab
background) and may have shade some doubts on his faith, leading to the
barbaric killing of the couple in the Church of Santa Rufina (used as
mosque) in the then capital city of the Emirate, Seville.
Can someone please complete this information?
Thanks,
Paulo
--
-darwin-
"I don't care if we're holding 15,000 innocent people. We're winning the
war."
-- Gen. Wodjakowski to Gen. Karpinsky, referring to Abu Graib
I was completing the tree of the Banu Qasi, when I got stuck on this
person.
He certainly is a very interesting person, who was in very good standing
with the Ummyad Caliphate who appointed in to rule Ifriqyia replacing the
former ruler,Hassan ibn al-Naaman, who is said to have been a conqueror
and hero, but who seem to have fall in disgrace for some obscure reason.
His family was most probably a very important one, and his father must
have had known Muahmmad himself (perhaps one of the Nusayr who appear in
some Hadiths?), or perhaps he was a released slave who done very good
services to teh Ummyads?
I found an undocumented reference in a genealogy tree who deemed him as
Musa ibn Nusayr ibn Abd Rahman ibn Zaydn, but I've great doubts about the
credibility of that one. However there was an exagete who wrote some
hadiths and who is refered as Abd Rahman ibn Zayd or "Zubaid al-Iami", who
I guess (perhaps wrongly) means Zubaid the Iemeni, who would make sense
since Musa is said to be from Iemeni background.
There is also the case of his wife, who is said to have been Aysha,
perhaps the same Aysha who married Marwan I and was then repudiated (what
is the source for this?), and considering the very good relations between
Musa and the Caliphate it is not strange at all that it would have been
the same Ashya, who is said to be grand grand daughter of the Prophet
himself, according to the Sunni tradition.
On the other hand, "Nusayr" seems to stand for Christian in Syria, so
perhaps one could advance the hypotesis that Musa was of Christian
background, what would explain his fairly good relations with the Kings of
the Visigodes, with whom he may have allied prior to the invasions of 710
and 711. That would also explain the proneness of his son Abd al-Aziz to
marry the Christian Queen (who may have been herself from a Berber or Arab
background) and may have shade some doubts on his faith, leading to the
barbaric killing of the couple in the Church of Santa Rufina (used as
mosque) in the then capital city of the Emirate, Seville.
Can someone please complete this information?
Thanks,
Paulo
--
-darwin-
"I don't care if we're holding 15,000 innocent people. We're winning the
war."
-- Gen. Wodjakowski to Gen. Karpinsky, referring to Abu Graib
-
Todd A. Farmerie
Re: Musa ibn Nusayr, ancestor of the Banu Qasi
Boulus ad-Darwin wrote:
Before we discuss the man, perhaps you could provide basis for the
derivation of the Banu Qasi from him.
taf
Hello,
I was completing the tree of the Banu Qasi, when I got stuck on this
person.
He certainly is a very interesting person, who was in very good
standing with the Ummyad Caliphate who appointed in to rule Ifriqyia
replacing the former ruler,Hassan ibn al-Naaman, who is said to have
been a conqueror and hero, but who seem to have fall in disgrace for
some obscure reason.
Before we discuss the man, perhaps you could provide basis for the
derivation of the Banu Qasi from him.
taf
-
Boulus ad-Darwin
Re: Musa ibn Nusayr, ancestor of the Banu Qasi
On Thu, 07 Oct 2004 09:37:37 -0600, Todd A. Farmerie <taf2@po.cwru.edu>
wrote:
[..]
You mean... Isn't it consensual that he was the grandfather of the wife of
Fortún ibn Qasi, Aysha?
--
-darwin-
"I don't care if we're holding 15,000 innocent people. We're winning the
war."
-- Gen. Wodjakowski to Gen. Karpinsky, referring to Abu Graib
wrote:
[..]
Before we discuss the man, perhaps you could provide basis for the
derivation of the Banu Qasi from him.
You mean... Isn't it consensual that he was the grandfather of the wife of
Fortún ibn Qasi, Aysha?
--
-darwin-
"I don't care if we're holding 15,000 innocent people. We're winning the
war."
-- Gen. Wodjakowski to Gen. Karpinsky, referring to Abu Graib
-
Boulus ad-Darwin
Re: Musa ibn Nusayr, ancestor of the Banu Qasi
On Thu, 07 Oct 2004 17:02:10 +0100, Boulus ad-Darwin
<darwin+usenet@spamcop.net> wrote:
Since my answer above I saw another possible line in
http://www.abcgenealogia.com/Navarra00.html which says she (Aysha wife of
Fortun) could have been the daughter of al Walid, the Ummayad Calipha
himself, and Egilona, which I think it's not very probable.
Interestingly it appends the nickname Al-Bakir to Musa, which means "the
revealer of secret things" in Arabic.
I wonder which of their sources they had used to find this.
--
-darwin-
"I don't care if we're holding 15,000 innocent people. We're winning the
war."
-- Gen. Wodjakowski to Gen. Karpinsky, referring to Abu Graib
<darwin+usenet@spamcop.net> wrote:
On Thu, 07 Oct 2004 09:37:37 -0600, Todd A. Farmerie <taf2@po.cwru.edu
wrote:
[..]
Before we discuss the man, perhaps you could provide basis for the
derivation of the Banu Qasi from him.
You mean... Isn't it consensual that he was the grandfather of the wife
of Fortún ibn Qasi, Aysha?
Since my answer above I saw another possible line in
http://www.abcgenealogia.com/Navarra00.html which says she (Aysha wife of
Fortun) could have been the daughter of al Walid, the Ummayad Calipha
himself, and Egilona, which I think it's not very probable.
Interestingly it appends the nickname Al-Bakir to Musa, which means "the
revealer of secret things" in Arabic.
I wonder which of their sources they had used to find this.
--
-darwin-
"I don't care if we're holding 15,000 innocent people. We're winning the
war."
-- Gen. Wodjakowski to Gen. Karpinsky, referring to Abu Graib
-
Todd A. Farmerie
Re: Musa ibn Nusayr, ancestor of the Banu Qasi
Boulus ad-Darwin wrote:
No, it's not. None of the early sources that I am aware of name the
wife of Fortun ibn Qasi, let alone provide her with parentage, and the
contemporary historical sources fail even to name Fortun himself
(except, perhaps, in the form of the patronymic of Muza ibn Fortun).
taf
On Thu, 07 Oct 2004 09:37:37 -0600, Todd A. Farmerie <taf2@po.cwru.edu
wrote:
[..]
Before we discuss the man, perhaps you could provide basis for the
derivation of the Banu Qasi from him.
You mean... Isn't it consensual that he was the grandfather of the wife
of Fortún ibn Qasi, Aysha?
No, it's not. None of the early sources that I am aware of name the
wife of Fortun ibn Qasi, let alone provide her with parentage, and the
contemporary historical sources fail even to name Fortun himself
(except, perhaps, in the form of the patronymic of Muza ibn Fortun).
taf
-
Boulus ad-Darwin
Re: Musa ibn Nusayr, ancestor of the Banu Qasi
On Thu, 07 Oct 2004 11:59:17 -0600, Todd A. Farmerie
<farmerie@interfold.com> wrote:
[..]
So... Where all that has come from? Imagination?
When did genealogists started calling her Aysha?
--
-darwin-
"I don't care if we're holding 15,000 innocent people. We're winning the
war."
-- Gen. Wodjakowski to Gen. Karpinsky, referring to Abu Graib
<farmerie@interfold.com> wrote:
[..]
No, it's not. None of the early sources that I am aware of name the
wife of Fortun ibn Qasi, let alone provide her with parentage, and the
contemporary historical sources fail even to name Fortun himself
(except, perhaps, in the form of the patronymic of Muza ibn Fortun).
taf
So... Where all that has come from? Imagination?
When did genealogists started calling her Aysha?
--
-darwin-
"I don't care if we're holding 15,000 innocent people. We're winning the
war."
-- Gen. Wodjakowski to Gen. Karpinsky, referring to Abu Graib
-
Todd A. Farmerie
Re: Musa ibn Nusayr, ancestor of the Banu Qasi
Boulus ad-Darwin wrote:
Contrary to what one might predict from the expected lost of information
over time, pedigrees actually tend to become longer and more elaborate
as time passes. In some cases this is due to the rediscovery of lost
knowledge, but in most cases it is due to innovation - either as a
result of genealogists making unsupported or weakly supported
hypotheses, or, like you suggest, through liberal use of imagination.
This I do not know. What must be done to answer this is to trace back
your source to its foundation, and see how far back it goes. (I note
that the Wikipedia names her and gives a father, but does not reference
its source.) What I can tell you is that a collection of genealogies of
muslim families compiled in the 11th century by Ibn Hazm al-Andaloussi,
"Jamharat ansab al-'Arab" appears to have no knowledge of (or at least
no interest in) this woman. This is the source that first presents the
descent of the family from the convert 'Cassius', but even here, Fortun
appears to occupy a role of little more than a space-filler between this
Cassius and Muza ibn FOrtun ibn Qasi.
taf
On Thu, 07 Oct 2004 11:59:17 -0600, Todd A. Farmerie wrote:
No, it's not. None of the early sources that I am aware of name the
wife of Fortun ibn Qasi, let alone provide her with parentage, and
the contemporary historical sources fail even to name Fortun himself
(except, perhaps, in the form of the patronymic of Muza ibn Fortun).
So... Where all that has come from? Imagination?
Contrary to what one might predict from the expected lost of information
over time, pedigrees actually tend to become longer and more elaborate
as time passes. In some cases this is due to the rediscovery of lost
knowledge, but in most cases it is due to innovation - either as a
result of genealogists making unsupported or weakly supported
hypotheses, or, like you suggest, through liberal use of imagination.
When did genealogists started calling her Aysha?
This I do not know. What must be done to answer this is to trace back
your source to its foundation, and see how far back it goes. (I note
that the Wikipedia names her and gives a father, but does not reference
its source.) What I can tell you is that a collection of genealogies of
muslim families compiled in the 11th century by Ibn Hazm al-Andaloussi,
"Jamharat ansab al-'Arab" appears to have no knowledge of (or at least
no interest in) this woman. This is the source that first presents the
descent of the family from the convert 'Cassius', but even here, Fortun
appears to occupy a role of little more than a space-filler between this
Cassius and Muza ibn FOrtun ibn Qasi.
taf
-
Boulus ad-Darwin
Re: Musa ibn Nusayr, ancestor of the Banu Qasi
On Thu, 07 Oct 2004 14:49:30 -0600, Todd A. Farmerie
<farmerie@interfold.com> wrote:
[..]
I first saw it at Genea (genealogia.sapo.pt).
The source they present in this case is:
ARIH - Ascendências Reais de SAR D. Isabel de Herédia
António de Sousa Lara, Vasco de Bettencourt Faria Machado e
Universitária Editora, 1ª Edição
Lisboa, 1999
Unfortunately I don't own this book, so I can't check what is really there.
Thank you very much for your help, BTW.
--
-darwin-
"I don't care if we're holding 15,000 innocent people. We're winning the
war."
-- Gen. Wodjakowski to Gen. Karpinski, referring to Abu Graib
<farmerie@interfold.com> wrote:
[..]
When did genealogists started calling her Aysha?
This I do not know. What must be done to answer this is to trace back
your source to its foundation, and see how far back it goes. (I note
I first saw it at Genea (genealogia.sapo.pt).
The source they present in this case is:
ARIH - Ascendências Reais de SAR D. Isabel de Herédia
António de Sousa Lara, Vasco de Bettencourt Faria Machado e
Universitária Editora, 1ª Edição
Lisboa, 1999
Unfortunately I don't own this book, so I can't check what is really there.
Thank you very much for your help, BTW.
--
-darwin-
"I don't care if we're holding 15,000 innocent people. We're winning the
war."
-- Gen. Wodjakowski to Gen. Karpinski, referring to Abu Graib
-
Francisco Antonio Doria
Re: Musa ibn Nusayr, ancestor of the Banu Qasi
The ancestry at genea.sapo that links the Maia family
to Abdallah of Cordova is incorrect, in my opinion.
They got it from my own previous work, which I do not
support anymore.
See our recent discussion (M. Kirk, N. Taylor and
myself) on the Muslim ancestry.
fa
--- Boulus ad-Darwin <darwin+usenet@spamcop.net>
escreveu:
_______________________________________________________
Yahoo! Acesso Grátis - Internet rápida e grátis. Instale o discador agora! http://br.acesso.yahoo.com/
to Abdallah of Cordova is incorrect, in my opinion.
They got it from my own previous work, which I do not
support anymore.
See our recent discussion (M. Kirk, N. Taylor and
myself) on the Muslim ancestry.
fa
--- Boulus ad-Darwin <darwin+usenet@spamcop.net>
escreveu:
On Thu, 07 Oct 2004 14:49:30 -0600, Todd A. Farmerie
farmerie@interfold.com> wrote:
[..]
When did genealogists started calling her Aysha?
This I do not know. What must be done to answer
this is to trace back
your source to its foundation, and see how far
back it goes. (I note
I first saw it at Genea (genealogia.sapo.pt).
The source they present in this case is:
ARIH - Ascendências Reais de SAR D. Isabel de
Herédia
António de Sousa Lara, Vasco de Bettencourt Faria
Machado e
Universitária Editora, 1ª Edição
Lisboa, 1999
Unfortunately I don't own this book, so I can't
check what is really there.
Thank you very much for your help, BTW.
--
-darwin-
"I don't care if we're holding 15,000 innocent
people. We're winning the
war."
-- Gen. Wodjakowski to Gen. Karpinski, referring to
Abu Graib
_______________________________________________________
Yahoo! Acesso Grátis - Internet rápida e grátis. Instale o discador agora! http://br.acesso.yahoo.com/
-
Todd A. Farmerie
Re: Musa ibn Nusayr, ancestor of the Banu Qasi
Boulus ad-Darwin wrote:
I have not seen this. However, I should also point out that there are
no well documented descents from the Banu Qasi themselves. If your
interest in the earlier marriage of Fortun ibn Qasi is due to a descent
you have seen from him, that too is not solid. I am aware of five
claimed connections, but in two cases the connections, as expressed, are
chronologically impossible, one is based on an ancient legend and the
individuals involved cannot be shown to be historical, while the final
two are guesses based on nothing but a shared use of names common to
both families.
taf
I first saw it at Genea (genealogia.sapo.pt).
The source they present in this case is:
ARIH - Ascendências Reais de SAR D. Isabel de Herédia
António de Sousa Lara, Vasco de Bettencourt Faria Machado e
Universitária Editora, 1ª Edição
Lisboa, 1999
Unfortunately I don't own this book, so I can't check what is really there.
Thank you very much for your help, BTW.
I have not seen this. However, I should also point out that there are
no well documented descents from the Banu Qasi themselves. If your
interest in the earlier marriage of Fortun ibn Qasi is due to a descent
you have seen from him, that too is not solid. I am aware of five
claimed connections, but in two cases the connections, as expressed, are
chronologically impossible, one is based on an ancient legend and the
individuals involved cannot be shown to be historical, while the final
two are guesses based on nothing but a shared use of names common to
both families.
taf
-
Boulus ad-Darwin
Re: Musa ibn Nusayr, ancestor of the Banu Qasi
On Fri, 8 Oct 2004 10:18:34 +0000 (UTC), Francisco Antonio Doria
<franciscoantoniodoria@yahoo.com.br> wrote:
Francisco, do you remember the subject of that thread?
--
-darwin-
"I don't care if we're holding 15,000 innocent people. We're winning the
war."
-- Gen. Wodjakowski to Gen. Karpinski, referring to Abu Graib
<franciscoantoniodoria@yahoo.com.br> wrote:
The ancestry at genea.sapo that links the Maia family
to Abdallah of Cordova is incorrect, in my opinion.
They got it from my own previous work, which I do not
support anymore.
See our recent discussion (M. Kirk, N. Taylor and
myself) on the Muslim ancestry.
fa
Francisco, do you remember the subject of that thread?
--
-darwin-
"I don't care if we're holding 15,000 innocent people. We're winning the
war."
-- Gen. Wodjakowski to Gen. Karpinski, referring to Abu Graib
-
Boulus ad-Darwin
Re: Musa ibn Nusayr, ancestor of the Banu Qasi
On Fri, 08 Oct 2004 11:55:40 -0600, Todd A. Farmerie
<farmerie@interfold.com> wrote:
Yes it's a possible ascendant, Urraca bint Abd Allah, who supposely
married Fruela II "o Leproso".
I sourced this information to a earlier discussion here in s.g.m. with the
subject "Urraca of the Banu Qasi", referred by FAD from M. Marín and J.
Zanón "Estudios Onomástico-Biográficos de al-Andalus", which is sourced on
2 Arab sources.
It doesn't seem to be chronologically impossible at first sight...
--
-darwin-
"I don't care if we're holding 15,000 innocent people. We're winning the
war."
-- Gen. Wodjakowski to Gen. Karpinski, referring to Abu Graib
<farmerie@interfold.com> wrote:
Boulus ad-Darwin wrote:
I first saw it at Genea (genealogia.sapo.pt).
The source they present in this case is:
ARIH - Ascendências Reais de SAR D. Isabel de Herédia
António de Sousa Lara, Vasco de Bettencourt Faria Machado e
Universitária Editora, 1ª Edição
Lisboa, 1999
Unfortunately I don't own this book, so I can't check what is really
there.
Thank you very much for your help, BTW.
I have not seen this. However, I should also point out that there are
no well documented descents from the Banu Qasi themselves. If your
interest in the earlier marriage of Fortun ibn Qasi is due to a descent
you have seen from him, that too is not solid. I am aware of five
claimed connections, but in two cases the connections, as expressed, are
chronologically impossible, one is based on an ancient legend and the
individuals involved cannot be shown to be historical, while the final
two are guesses based on nothing but a shared use of names common to
both families.
Yes it's a possible ascendant, Urraca bint Abd Allah, who supposely
married Fruela II "o Leproso".
I sourced this information to a earlier discussion here in s.g.m. with the
subject "Urraca of the Banu Qasi", referred by FAD from M. Marín and J.
Zanón "Estudios Onomástico-Biográficos de al-Andalus", which is sourced on
2 Arab sources.
It doesn't seem to be chronologically impossible at first sight...
--
-darwin-
"I don't care if we're holding 15,000 innocent people. We're winning the
war."
-- Gen. Wodjakowski to Gen. Karpinski, referring to Abu Graib
-
Todd A. Farmerie
Re: Musa ibn Nusayr, ancestor of the Banu Qasi
Boulus ad-Darwin wrote:
This they copied (it would seem from the description) from a chart
compiles by Levi-Provencal. The Arab sources cited by this chart while
I looked both up at the time, I only recall that one was the genealogy
of the Banu Qasi appearing in ibn Hazm's work) do not support all of the
connections found in the chart. That being said, this marriage does
seem to be supported, but as to the descents from this marriage . . . .
This marriage itself is not chronologically impossible, but all lines of
which I am aware which trace from this Urraca are. These lines
generally take one of two courses. The first, several families are
claimed in late medieval genealogical writings to descend from Fruela
II, but the lines are invariably short and confused. The best known of
these makes the husband of Infanta Christina Vermudez, Ordono Ramirez,
called "the Blind", the son of Fruela. However, simple onomastics
proves this wrong - Ramirez means son of Ramiro, not Fruela, and recent
scholarship concludes he was son of Ramiro III, not of Fruela II. A
second connection, proposed more recently, was based on the marriage
between the anti-king Ramiro, brother of Fruela, and of a woman named
Urraca. As she only appears as wife of Ramiro after Fruela's death, and
the name Urraca so rare in Asturias/Leon, it was proposed that Ramiro
married his widowed sister-in-law. Ramiro was maternal grandfather of
Fernan Gonzalez, Count of Castile, and hence a descent was suggested
here. However, Fernan Gonzalez was already born when Fruela died, so
even if Ramiro married his widow, his daughter Muniadomna, mother of
Fernan, must have been by an earlier wife (the author who first made
this proposal has admitted its flaw and withdrawn the suggestion).
Thus, we are left with a marriage (maybe two) but no descent.
taf
Yes it's a possible ascendant, Urraca bint Abd Allah, who supposely
married Fruela II "o Leproso".
I sourced this information to a earlier discussion here in s.g.m. with
the subject "Urraca of the Banu Qasi", referred by FAD from M. Marín
and J. Zanón "Estudios Onomástico-Biográficos de al-Andalus", which is
sourced on 2 Arab sources.
This they copied (it would seem from the description) from a chart
compiles by Levi-Provencal. The Arab sources cited by this chart while
I looked both up at the time, I only recall that one was the genealogy
of the Banu Qasi appearing in ibn Hazm's work) do not support all of the
connections found in the chart. That being said, this marriage does
seem to be supported, but as to the descents from this marriage . . . .
It doesn't seem to be chronologically impossible at first sight...
This marriage itself is not chronologically impossible, but all lines of
which I am aware which trace from this Urraca are. These lines
generally take one of two courses. The first, several families are
claimed in late medieval genealogical writings to descend from Fruela
II, but the lines are invariably short and confused. The best known of
these makes the husband of Infanta Christina Vermudez, Ordono Ramirez,
called "the Blind", the son of Fruela. However, simple onomastics
proves this wrong - Ramirez means son of Ramiro, not Fruela, and recent
scholarship concludes he was son of Ramiro III, not of Fruela II. A
second connection, proposed more recently, was based on the marriage
between the anti-king Ramiro, brother of Fruela, and of a woman named
Urraca. As she only appears as wife of Ramiro after Fruela's death, and
the name Urraca so rare in Asturias/Leon, it was proposed that Ramiro
married his widowed sister-in-law. Ramiro was maternal grandfather of
Fernan Gonzalez, Count of Castile, and hence a descent was suggested
here. However, Fernan Gonzalez was already born when Fruela died, so
even if Ramiro married his widow, his daughter Muniadomna, mother of
Fernan, must have been by an earlier wife (the author who first made
this proposal has admitted its flaw and withdrawn the suggestion).
Thus, we are left with a marriage (maybe two) but no descent.
taf
-
Francisco Antonio Doria
Re: Musa ibn Nusayr, ancestor of the Banu Qasi
Did I mention that paper by M. Marín? I have the first
part of that well-known study of the Ummayad lines in
al-Andaluz, but not that other paper.
I once considered the banu Qasi connection as a
possible link to the Muslim aristocracy, but I've
dropped it in favor of the (so it seems to me) much
more solid Maia link.
fa
--- Boulus ad-Darwin <darwin+usenet@spamcop.net>
escreveu:
_______________________________________________________
Yahoo! Acesso Grátis - Internet rápida e grátis. Instale o discador agora! http://br.acesso.yahoo.com/
part of that well-known study of the Ummayad lines in
al-Andaluz, but not that other paper.
I once considered the banu Qasi connection as a
possible link to the Muslim aristocracy, but I've
dropped it in favor of the (so it seems to me) much
more solid Maia link.
fa
--- Boulus ad-Darwin <darwin+usenet@spamcop.net>
escreveu:
On Fri, 08 Oct 2004 11:55:40 -0600, Todd A. Farmerie
farmerie@interfold.com> wrote:
Boulus ad-Darwin wrote:
I first saw it at Genea (genealogia.sapo.pt).
The source they present in this case is:
ARIH - Ascendências Reais de SAR D. Isabel de
Herédia
António de Sousa Lara, Vasco de Bettencourt Faria
Machado e
Universitária Editora, 1ª Edição
Lisboa, 1999
Unfortunately I don't own this book, so I can't
check what is really
there.
Thank you very much for your help, BTW.
I have not seen this. However, I should also
point out that there are
no well documented descents from the Banu Qasi
themselves. If your
interest in the earlier marriage of Fortun ibn
Qasi is due to a descent
you have seen from him, that too is not solid. I
am aware of five
claimed connections, but in two cases the
connections, as expressed, are
chronologically impossible, one is based on an
ancient legend and the
individuals involved cannot be shown to be
historical, while the final
two are guesses based on nothing but a shared use
of names common to
both families.
Yes it's a possible ascendant, Urraca bint Abd
Allah, who supposely
married Fruela II "o Leproso".
I sourced this information to a earlier discussion
here in s.g.m. with the
subject "Urraca of the Banu Qasi", referred by FAD
from M. Marín and J.
Zanón "Estudios Onomástico-Biográficos de
al-Andalus", which is sourced on
2 Arab sources.
It doesn't seem to be chronologically impossible at
first sight...
--
-darwin-
"I don't care if we're holding 15,000 innocent
people. We're winning the
war."
-- Gen. Wodjakowski to Gen. Karpinski, referring to
Abu Graib
_______________________________________________________
Yahoo! Acesso Grátis - Internet rápida e grátis. Instale o discador agora! http://br.acesso.yahoo.com/
-
Francisco Antonio Doria
Re: Musa ibn Nusayr, ancestor of the Banu Qasi
Look for Abunazar, Maia, the Prophet, Muhammad.
BTW, there is a well-known (but again not very much
considered) 999 document that refers to Lovesendo
Abenazar = iben Nazar, which, I think, supports my
identification of the Lord of Maia with Nazeron ibn
Leodesindo ibn Firhi.
And the traditional name for his mother, ``Ortega,''
might well be Onneca = Oñega, Onhega.
fa
--- Boulus ad-Darwin <darwin+usenet@spamcop.net>
escreveu:
_______________________________________________________
Yahoo! Acesso Grátis - Internet rápida e grátis. Instale o discador agora! http://br.acesso.yahoo.com/
BTW, there is a well-known (but again not very much
considered) 999 document that refers to Lovesendo
Abenazar = iben Nazar, which, I think, supports my
identification of the Lord of Maia with Nazeron ibn
Leodesindo ibn Firhi.
And the traditional name for his mother, ``Ortega,''
might well be Onneca = Oñega, Onhega.
fa
--- Boulus ad-Darwin <darwin+usenet@spamcop.net>
escreveu:
On Fri, 8 Oct 2004 10:18:34 +0000 (UTC), Francisco
Antonio Doria
franciscoantoniodoria@yahoo.com.br> wrote:
The ancestry at genea.sapo that links the Maia
family
to Abdallah of Cordova is incorrect, in my
opinion.
They got it from my own previous work, which I do
not
support anymore.
See our recent discussion (M. Kirk, N. Taylor and
myself) on the Muslim ancestry.
fa
Francisco, do you remember the subject of that
thread?
--
-darwin-
"I don't care if we're holding 15,000 innocent
people. We're winning the
war."
-- Gen. Wodjakowski to Gen. Karpinski, referring to
Abu Graib
_______________________________________________________
Yahoo! Acesso Grátis - Internet rápida e grátis. Instale o discador agora! http://br.acesso.yahoo.com/
-
Boulus ad-Darwin
Re: Musa ibn Nusayr, ancestor of the Banu Qasi
On Sat, 9 Oct 2004 12:47:11 -0300 (ART), Francisco Antonio Doria
<franciscoantoniodoria@yahoo.com.br> wrote:
This was what you refered:
"Thanks to P. Marín-Guzmán, I have a table of the banu
Qasi descent, from M. Marín and J. Zanón, _Estudios
Onomástico-Biográficos de al-Andalus_, CSIC."
http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GE ... 0992096531
It would be wonderful to have Arab/Berber genealogists here in the list to
make the connections between the Christian and Arab sources, and complete
both sides...
I'm studying Arabic (amateurly), but I guess it will take some years to be
fluent enough on that language (which ME Arabs say is very different to
Moroccan Arabic), and anyway I've not direct access to any Arab codices
AFAIK.
It would be a wonderful pretext to go to Morocco someday in the future to
lurk in their archives.
--
-darwin-
"I don't care if we're holding 15,000 innocent people. We're winning the
war."
-- Gen. Wodjakowski to Gen. Karpinski, referring to Abu Graib
<franciscoantoniodoria@yahoo.com.br> wrote:
Did I mention that paper by M. Marín? I have the first
part of that well-known study of the Ummayad lines in
al-Andaluz, but not that other paper.
This was what you refered:
"Thanks to P. Marín-Guzmán, I have a table of the banu
Qasi descent, from M. Marín and J. Zanón, _Estudios
Onomástico-Biográficos de al-Andalus_, CSIC."
http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GE ... 0992096531
It would be wonderful to have Arab/Berber genealogists here in the list to
make the connections between the Christian and Arab sources, and complete
both sides...
I'm studying Arabic (amateurly), but I guess it will take some years to be
fluent enough on that language (which ME Arabs say is very different to
Moroccan Arabic), and anyway I've not direct access to any Arab codices
AFAIK.
It would be a wonderful pretext to go to Morocco someday in the future to
lurk in their archives.
--
-darwin-
"I don't care if we're holding 15,000 innocent people. We're winning the
war."
-- Gen. Wodjakowski to Gen. Karpinski, referring to Abu Graib
-
Boulus ad-Darwin
Ancestry of Ordoño Ramirez de Leon ( was: Musa ibn Nusayr, a
On Sat, 09 Oct 2004 00:00:03 -0600, Todd A. Farmerie
<farmerie@lamar.colostate.edu> wrote:
[..]
Thanks, I was not aware that Ordoño was a Ramirez.
I've now corrected my charts, who now stand as:
1a.Ramiro III == NN
2a.Ordoño Ramirez == Cristina Bermudez (2b)
1b. Bermudo II == Velazquita Ramirez
2b. Cristina Bermudez
Is it known who is the woman who gave birth to Ordoño El Ciego?
And what about this Velazquita Ramirez, are their parents known?
Is it fairly consensual by now that Ramiro was the father of Muniadona,
mother of Fernán Gonzalez?
--
-darwin-
"I don't care if we're holding 15,000 innocent people. We're winning the
war."
-- Gen. Wodjakowski to Gen. Karpinski, referring to Abu Graib
<farmerie@lamar.colostate.edu> wrote:
[..]
This marriage itself is not chronologically impossible, but all lines of
which I am aware which trace from this Urraca are. These lines
generally take one of two courses. The first, several families are
claimed in late medieval genealogical writings to descend from Fruela
II, but the lines are invariably short and confused. The best known of
these makes the husband of Infanta Christina Vermudez, Ordono Ramirez,
called "the Blind", the son of Fruela. However, simple onomastics
proves this wrong - Ramirez means son of Ramiro, not Fruela, and recent
scholarship concludes he was son of Ramiro III, not of Fruela II. A
Thanks, I was not aware that Ordoño was a Ramirez.
I've now corrected my charts, who now stand as:
1a.Ramiro III == NN
2a.Ordoño Ramirez == Cristina Bermudez (2b)
1b. Bermudo II == Velazquita Ramirez
2b. Cristina Bermudez
Is it known who is the woman who gave birth to Ordoño El Ciego?
And what about this Velazquita Ramirez, are their parents known?
second connection, proposed more recently, was based on the marriage
between the anti-king Ramiro, brother of Fruela, and of a woman named
Urraca. As she only appears as wife of Ramiro after Fruela's death, and
the name Urraca so rare in Asturias/Leon, it was proposed that Ramiro
married his widowed sister-in-law. Ramiro was maternal grandfather of
Fernan Gonzalez, Count of Castile, and hence a descent was suggested
here. However, Fernan Gonzalez was already born when Fruela died, so
even if Ramiro married his widow, his daughter Muniadomna, mother of
Fernan, must have been by an earlier wife (the author who first made
this proposal has admitted its flaw and withdrawn the suggestion). Thus,
we are left with a marriage (maybe two) but no descent.
Is it fairly consensual by now that Ramiro was the father of Muniadona,
mother of Fernán Gonzalez?
--
-darwin-
"I don't care if we're holding 15,000 innocent people. We're winning the
war."
-- Gen. Wodjakowski to Gen. Karpinski, referring to Abu Graib
-
Boulus ad-Darwin
Re: Musa ibn Nusayr, ancestor of the Banu Qasi
On Sat, 9 Oct 2004 15:50:27 +0000 (UTC), Francisco Antonio Doria
<franciscoantoniodoria@yahoo.com.br> wrote:
Thanks, I guess I found it, thought it was not that recent (some months
ago) but probably are what you're talking about.
That Nazir/Nazeron name is curious, it seems to be rooted on the Arabic
word for Christian, Massiriya or Nassirya as in Nazaren, from Nazareth. I
wonder if it was given on purpose.
--
-darwin-
"I don't care if we're holding 15,000 innocent people. We're winning the
war."
-- Gen. Wodjakowski to Gen. Karpinski, referring to Abu Graib
<franciscoantoniodoria@yahoo.com.br> wrote:
Look for Abunazar, Maia, the Prophet, Muhammad.
BTW, there is a well-known (but again not very much
considered) 999 document that refers to Lovesendo
Abenazar = iben Nazar, which, I think, supports my
identification of the Lord of Maia with Nazeron ibn
Leodesindo ibn Firhi.
And the traditional name for his mother, ``Ortega,''
might well be Onneca = Oñega, Onhega.
Thanks, I guess I found it, thought it was not that recent (some months
ago) but probably are what you're talking about.
That Nazir/Nazeron name is curious, it seems to be rooted on the Arabic
word for Christian, Massiriya or Nassirya as in Nazaren, from Nazareth. I
wonder if it was given on purpose.
--
-darwin-
"I don't care if we're holding 15,000 innocent people. We're winning the
war."
-- Gen. Wodjakowski to Gen. Karpinski, referring to Abu Graib
-
Todd A. Farmerie
Re: Ancestry of Ordoño Ramirez de Leon (was: Musa ibn Nusay
Boulus ad-Darwin wrote:
I see that I did not clarify one issue - Cristina married Ordono
Ramirez, who is called by older genealogies Ordono el Ciego and made son
of Fruela. It should be clarified that, as these older genealogies are
erroneous in their placement, it is possible that "Ordono el Ciego" was
the son of Fruela, but incorrectly made the same as Ordono Ramirez, or
alternatively that Ordono el Ciego was identical to Ordono Ramirez, and
was not son of Fruela. Given what is known to have happened to Fruela's
sons, I think it likely that this nickname did not originally refer to
Cristina's husband, but rather to Fruela's son.
I think it is assumed to be Ramiro's wife, but I would have to look up
the details. (off the top of my head, she was an Ansurez) For an
analysis of Ordono and Cristina see:
Sanchez Candiera, Alfonso. La Reina Velasquita de Leon y su
Descendencia. Hispania. 10:449-505 (1950).
Her immediate parentage is not, IIRC, directly attested, but a
reasonable argument has been made that she was daughter of Ramiro
Menendez, who derived from the same group of noble families from which
most of the royal brides were drawn, descending from Hermengildo
Gutierrez, Alfonso Betote, and Diego Fernandez. See:
Garcia Alvarez, Manuel Rubén. ¿La Reina Velasquita, nieta de Muniadomna
Diaz? Revista de Guimarães. 70:197-230 (1960).
(this solution has an added benefit - Vermudo is made illegitimate
because he claims as 'grandfather' Gonzalo Betotez, and none of his
father's wives have such a descent. However, this would allow the
connection through Velasquita (great-granddaughter of Gonzalo under this
reconstruction), removing the need for Vermudo to have such a descent.
Given this, there is no reason to hypothesize an illegitimate birth,
and, as Emilio Saez Sanchez suggested, he was likely son of Ordono III
by his Navarre wife.
I think so. Perez de Urbel wrote of it, and he has been followed by
more recent authors, the only caveat being that Perez de Urbel prefered
to interpret the father of Muniadomna as an illegitimate Ramiro (not
otherwise known), namesake of his half-brother the anti-king, while the
individual who proposed the (flawed) Urraca link makes Muniadomna the
daughter of the anti-king himself. Unfortunately, this last was
published in a chart without supporting text to provide the basis for
the reanalysis. It does seem clear that the early reconstruction of the
Counts of Castile that appeared in, for example, Menendez Pidal's Espana
del Cid, is in need of revision. However, I am not aware of a detailed
review and discussion of the recent reconstructions. For some of these see:
Rodriquez Marquina, Javier. Las Salinas de Castilla en el Siglo X, y la
Genealogia de las Familias Condales. in Homenaje a Fray Justo Perez de
Urbel, OSB., 143-51 (1976).
and
Vajay, Szabolcs de. Structures de Prouvoir et Reseaux de Familles du
VIIIe au XIIe Siecles. Genealogica & Heraldica: Actas de 17o Congresso
das Ciencias Genealogica e Heraldica. 275-315 (1986).
taf
On Sat, 09 Oct 2004 00:00:03 -0600, Todd A. Farmerie
farmerie@lamar.colostate.edu> wrote:
[..]
This marriage itself is not chronologically impossible, but all lines
of which I am aware which trace from this Urraca are. These lines
generally take one of two courses. The first, several families are
claimed in late medieval genealogical writings to descend from Fruela
II, but the lines are invariably short and confused. The best known
of these makes the husband of Infanta Christina Vermudez, Ordono
Ramirez, called "the Blind", the son of Fruela. However, simple
onomastics proves this wrong - Ramirez means son of Ramiro, not
Fruela, and recent scholarship concludes he was son of Ramiro III,
not of Fruela II. A
Thanks, I was not aware that Ordoño was a Ramirez.
I see that I did not clarify one issue - Cristina married Ordono
Ramirez, who is called by older genealogies Ordono el Ciego and made son
of Fruela. It should be clarified that, as these older genealogies are
erroneous in their placement, it is possible that "Ordono el Ciego" was
the son of Fruela, but incorrectly made the same as Ordono Ramirez, or
alternatively that Ordono el Ciego was identical to Ordono Ramirez, and
was not son of Fruela. Given what is known to have happened to Fruela's
sons, I think it likely that this nickname did not originally refer to
Cristina's husband, but rather to Fruela's son.
I've now corrected my charts, who now stand as:
1a.Ramiro III == NN
2a.Ordoño Ramirez == Cristina Bermudez (2b)
1b. Bermudo II == Velazquita Ramirez
2b. Cristina Bermudez
Is it known who is the woman who gave birth to Ordoño El Ciego?
I think it is assumed to be Ramiro's wife, but I would have to look up
the details. (off the top of my head, she was an Ansurez) For an
analysis of Ordono and Cristina see:
Sanchez Candiera, Alfonso. La Reina Velasquita de Leon y su
Descendencia. Hispania. 10:449-505 (1950).
And what about this Velazquita Ramirez, are their parents known?
Her immediate parentage is not, IIRC, directly attested, but a
reasonable argument has been made that she was daughter of Ramiro
Menendez, who derived from the same group of noble families from which
most of the royal brides were drawn, descending from Hermengildo
Gutierrez, Alfonso Betote, and Diego Fernandez. See:
Garcia Alvarez, Manuel Rubén. ¿La Reina Velasquita, nieta de Muniadomna
Diaz? Revista de Guimarães. 70:197-230 (1960).
(this solution has an added benefit - Vermudo is made illegitimate
because he claims as 'grandfather' Gonzalo Betotez, and none of his
father's wives have such a descent. However, this would allow the
connection through Velasquita (great-granddaughter of Gonzalo under this
reconstruction), removing the need for Vermudo to have such a descent.
Given this, there is no reason to hypothesize an illegitimate birth,
and, as Emilio Saez Sanchez suggested, he was likely son of Ordono III
by his Navarre wife.
Is it fairly consensual by now that Ramiro was the father of Muniadona,
mother of Fernán Gonzalez?
I think so. Perez de Urbel wrote of it, and he has been followed by
more recent authors, the only caveat being that Perez de Urbel prefered
to interpret the father of Muniadomna as an illegitimate Ramiro (not
otherwise known), namesake of his half-brother the anti-king, while the
individual who proposed the (flawed) Urraca link makes Muniadomna the
daughter of the anti-king himself. Unfortunately, this last was
published in a chart without supporting text to provide the basis for
the reanalysis. It does seem clear that the early reconstruction of the
Counts of Castile that appeared in, for example, Menendez Pidal's Espana
del Cid, is in need of revision. However, I am not aware of a detailed
review and discussion of the recent reconstructions. For some of these see:
Rodriquez Marquina, Javier. Las Salinas de Castilla en el Siglo X, y la
Genealogia de las Familias Condales. in Homenaje a Fray Justo Perez de
Urbel, OSB., 143-51 (1976).
and
Vajay, Szabolcs de. Structures de Prouvoir et Reseaux de Familles du
VIIIe au XIIe Siecles. Genealogica & Heraldica: Actas de 17o Congresso
das Ciencias Genealogica e Heraldica. 275-315 (1986).
taf
-
Boulus ad-Darwin
Re: Musa ibn Nusayr, ancestor of the Banu Qasi
On Sat, 9 Oct 2004 21:32:54 -0300 (ART), Francisco Antonio Doria
<franciscoantoniodoria@yahoo.com.br> wrote:
"The Victorious", then. It could still have the same root as Nasirah
(protector?)in Arabic, but nothing that would deem it as a Mozarab name.
--
-darwin-
"I don't care if we're holding 15,000 innocent people. We're winning the
war."
-- Gen. Wodjakowski to Gen. Karpinski, referring to Abu Graib
<franciscoantoniodoria@yahoo.com.br> wrote:
No, don't be led astray... It's from Nasser.
"The Victorious", then. It could still have the same root as Nasirah
(protector?)in Arabic, but nothing that would deem it as a Mozarab name.
--
-darwin-
"I don't care if we're holding 15,000 innocent people. We're winning the
war."
-- Gen. Wodjakowski to Gen. Karpinski, referring to Abu Graib
-
Francisco Antonio Doria
Re: Ancestry of Ordoño Ramirez de Leon (wa s: Musa ibn Nusay
On Hermenegildo (Mendo) Guterres, Ero Fernandes,
Afonso Betote, J. Mattoso, ``As famílias condais...''
Also, Luiz de Mello Vaz de São Payo, _A Ascendência de
D. Afonso Henriques_, with lots of speculative links
)
fa
--- "Todd A. Farmerie" <farmerie@lamar.colostate.edu>
escreveu:
_______________________________________________________
Yahoo! Acesso Grátis - Internet rápida e grátis. Instale o discador agora! http://br.acesso.yahoo.com/
Afonso Betote, J. Mattoso, ``As famílias condais...''
Also, Luiz de Mello Vaz de São Payo, _A Ascendência de
D. Afonso Henriques_, with lots of speculative links
fa
--- "Todd A. Farmerie" <farmerie@lamar.colostate.edu>
escreveu:
Boulus ad-Darwin wrote:
On Sat, 09 Oct 2004 00:00:03 -0600, Todd A.
Farmerie
farmerie@lamar.colostate.edu> wrote:
[..]
This marriage itself is not chronologically
impossible, but all lines
of which I am aware which trace from this Urraca
are. These lines
generally take one of two courses. The first,
several families are
claimed in late medieval genealogical writings to
descend from Fruela
II, but the lines are invariably short and
confused. The best known
of these makes the husband of Infanta Christina
Vermudez, Ordono
Ramirez, called "the Blind", the son of Fruela.
However, simple
onomastics proves this wrong - Ramirez means son
of Ramiro, not
Fruela, and recent scholarship concludes he was
son of Ramiro III,
not of Fruela II. A
Thanks, I was not aware that Ordoño was a Ramirez.
I see that I did not clarify one issue - Cristina
married Ordono
Ramirez, who is called by older genealogies Ordono
el Ciego and made son
of Fruela. It should be clarified that, as these
older genealogies are
erroneous in their placement, it is possible that
"Ordono el Ciego" was
the son of Fruela, but incorrectly made the same as
Ordono Ramirez, or
alternatively that Ordono el Ciego was identical to
Ordono Ramirez, and
was not son of Fruela. Given what is known to have
happened to Fruela's
sons, I think it likely that this nickname did not
originally refer to
Cristina's husband, but rather to Fruela's son.
I've now corrected my charts, who now stand as:
1a.Ramiro III == NN
2a.Ordoño Ramirez == Cristina Bermudez (2b)
1b. Bermudo II == Velazquita Ramirez
2b. Cristina Bermudez
Is it known who is the woman who gave birth to
Ordoño El Ciego?
I think it is assumed to be Ramiro's wife, but I
would have to look up
the details. (off the top of my head, she was an
Ansurez) For an
analysis of Ordono and Cristina see:
Sanchez Candiera, Alfonso. La Reina Velasquita de
Leon y su
Descendencia. Hispania. 10:449-505 (1950).
And what about this Velazquita Ramirez, are their
parents known?
Her immediate parentage is not, IIRC, directly
attested, but a
reasonable argument has been made that she was
daughter of Ramiro
Menendez, who derived from the same group of noble
families from which
most of the royal brides were drawn, descending from
Hermengildo
Gutierrez, Alfonso Betote, and Diego Fernandez.
See:
Garcia Alvarez, Manuel Rubén. ¿La Reina Velasquita,
nieta de Muniadomna
Diaz? Revista de Guimarães. 70:197-230 (1960).
(this solution has an added benefit - Vermudo is
made illegitimate
because he claims as 'grandfather' Gonzalo Betotez,
and none of his
father's wives have such a descent. However, this
would allow the
connection through Velasquita (great-granddaughter
of Gonzalo under this
reconstruction), removing the need for Vermudo to
have such a descent.
Given this, there is no reason to hypothesize an
illegitimate birth,
and, as Emilio Saez Sanchez suggested, he was likely
son of Ordono III
by his Navarre wife.
Is it fairly consensual by now that Ramiro was the
father of Muniadona,
mother of Fernán Gonzalez?
I think so. Perez de Urbel wrote of it, and he has
been followed by
more recent authors, the only caveat being that
Perez de Urbel prefered
to interpret the father of Muniadomna as an
illegitimate Ramiro (not
otherwise known), namesake of his half-brother the
anti-king, while the
individual who proposed the (flawed) Urraca link
makes Muniadomna the
daughter of the anti-king himself. Unfortunately,
this last was
published in a chart without supporting text to
provide the basis for
the reanalysis. It does seem clear that the early
reconstruction of the
Counts of Castile that appeared in, for example,
Menendez Pidal's Espana
del Cid, is in need of revision. However, I am not
aware of a detailed
review and discussion of the recent reconstructions.
For some of these see:
Rodriquez Marquina, Javier. Las Salinas de Castilla
en el Siglo X, y la
Genealogia de las Familias Condales. in Homenaje a
Fray Justo Perez de
Urbel, OSB., 143-51 (1976).
and
Vajay, Szabolcs de. Structures de Prouvoir et
Reseaux de Familles du
VIIIe au XIIe Siecles. Genealogica & Heraldica:
Actas de 17o Congresso
das Ciencias Genealogica e Heraldica. 275-315
(1986).
taf
_______________________________________________________
Yahoo! Acesso Grátis - Internet rápida e grátis. Instale o discador agora! http://br.acesso.yahoo.com/
-
Francisco Antonio Doria
Re: Musa ibn Nusayr, ancestor of the Banu Qasi
No, don't be led astray... It's from Nasser.
--- Boulus ad-Darwin <darwin+usenet@spamcop.net>
escreveu:
_______________________________________________________
Yahoo! Acesso Grátis - Internet rápida e grátis. Instale o discador agora! http://br.acesso.yahoo.com/
--- Boulus ad-Darwin <darwin+usenet@spamcop.net>
escreveu:
On Sat, 9 Oct 2004 15:50:27 +0000 (UTC), Francisco
Antonio Doria
franciscoantoniodoria@yahoo.com.br> wrote:
Look for Abunazar, Maia, the Prophet, Muhammad.
BTW, there is a well-known (but again not very
much
considered) 999 document that refers to Lovesendo
Abenazar = iben Nazar, which, I think, supports my
identification of the Lord of Maia with Nazeron
ibn
Leodesindo ibn Firhi.
And the traditional name for his mother,
``Ortega,''
might well be Onneca = Oñega, Onhega.
Thanks, I guess I found it, thought it was not that
recent (some months
ago) but probably are what you're talking about.
That Nazir/Nazeron name is curious, it seems to be
rooted on the Arabic
word for Christian, Massiriya or Nassirya as in
Nazaren, from Nazareth. I
wonder if it was given on purpose.
--
-darwin-
"I don't care if we're holding 15,000 innocent
people. We're winning the
war."
-- Gen. Wodjakowski to Gen. Karpinski, referring to
Abu Graib
_______________________________________________________
Yahoo! Acesso Grátis - Internet rápida e grátis. Instale o discador agora! http://br.acesso.yahoo.com/
-
Francisco Antonio Doria
Re: Musa ibn Nusayr, ancestor of the Banu Qasi
OK, I didn't recall it; txs! I have Lévi-Provençal's
work too.
--- Boulus ad-Darwin <darwin+usenet@spamcop.net>
escreveu:
_______________________________________________________
Yahoo! Acesso Grátis - Internet rápida e grátis. Instale o discador agora! http://br.acesso.yahoo.com/
work too.
--- Boulus ad-Darwin <darwin+usenet@spamcop.net>
escreveu:
On Sat, 9 Oct 2004 12:47:11 -0300 (ART), Francisco
Antonio Doria
franciscoantoniodoria@yahoo.com.br> wrote:
Did I mention that paper by M. Marín? I have the
first
part of that well-known study of the Ummayad lines
in
al-Andaluz, but not that other paper.
This was what you refered:
"Thanks to P. Marín-Guzmán, I have a table of the
banu
Qasi descent, from M. Marín and J. Zanón, _Estudios
Onomástico-Biográficos de al-Andalus_, CSIC."
http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GE ... 0992096531
It would be wonderful to have Arab/Berber
genealogists here in the list to
make the connections between the Christian and Arab
sources, and complete
both sides...
I'm studying Arabic (amateurly), but I guess it will
take some years to be
fluent enough on that language (which ME Arabs say
is very different to
Moroccan Arabic), and anyway I've not direct access
to any Arab codices
AFAIK.
It would be a wonderful pretext to go to Morocco
someday in the future to
lurk in their archives.
--
-darwin-
"I don't care if we're holding 15,000 innocent
people. We're winning the
war."
-- Gen. Wodjakowski to Gen. Karpinski, referring to
Abu Graib
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-
Francisco Antonio Doria
Re: Musa ibn Nusayr, ancestor of the Banu Qasi
Yes. This is the most likely interpretation. And I've
been wondering if it has anything to do with the name
of contemporary Caliph an-Nazir.
fa
--- Boulus ad-Darwin <darwin+usenet@spamcop.net>
escreveu:
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been wondering if it has anything to do with the name
of contemporary Caliph an-Nazir.
fa
--- Boulus ad-Darwin <darwin+usenet@spamcop.net>
escreveu:
On Sat, 9 Oct 2004 21:32:54 -0300 (ART), Francisco
Antonio Doria
franciscoantoniodoria@yahoo.com.br> wrote:
No, don't be led astray... It's from Nasser.
"The Victorious", then. It could still have the same
root as Nasirah
(protector?)in Arabic, but nothing that would deem
it as a Mozarab name.
--
-darwin-
"I don't care if we're holding 15,000 innocent
people. We're winning the
war."
-- Gen. Wodjakowski to Gen. Karpinski, referring to
Abu Graib
_______________________________________________________
Yahoo! Acesso Grátis - Internet rápida e grátis. Instale o discador agora! http://br.acesso.yahoo.com/