Domesday Descendants Amendments and Additions October 2004

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Rosie Bevan

Domesday Descendants Amendments and Additions October 2004

Legg inn av Rosie Bevan » 04 okt 2004 01:44:24

The following are the latest entries recently uploaded onto the FMG website
at http://www.fmg.org. Some of the entries have arrived via the web site and have
not been discussed by this newsgroup.

Thank you, once again, to all who have contributed to the discussions, and
to Joe Edwards and the FMG who have generously provided their resources.

Cheers

Rosie


Domesday Descendants Amendments and Additions October 2004

p.200 Camerarius, Robert
"Chamberlain of earl Conan of Richmond.Robert's eventual heirs were his
daughters.Beatrice, wife of Richard de Cormeilles (d.1177) and then of
Robert de L'Isle."

Robert de L'Isle was never married to Beatrice. Apart from the chronological
difficulty, charter evidence shows that it was an ancestor of the de L'
Isles, Ralph fitz Olaf, chamberlain of the bishop of Ely, who was given
lands at Wilbraham, with his wife, belonging to the fee of the chamberlain
of the earl of Richmond [British Library, Cotton MS Claudius C xi, f. 340;
this charter was cited by Victoria County History, Cambridgeshire, vol. 10,
p. 309]. Ralph's wife was presumably a daughter or kinswoman of Robert the
chamberlain of the Honour of Richmond.

Gordon Kirkemo, Chris Phillips, Rosie Bevan, August 2004

p. 243 Comitis, Gaufrid Filius Gaufridi and p. 989 Frater Regis, Gaufrid

These are two separate entries referring to the same individual, Geoffrey,
second son of Geoffrey, count of Anjou and Empress Matilda.

Tim Powys-Lybbe 5 March 2004

p.263 de Abrincis, William
"In 1242 his heir was his granddaughter Matilda, wife of Hamo II de
Crevequer (d.1263)"

There is some ambiguity of whom Matilda was heir, but in either case there
is an error. Matilda was William's great grand-daughter being the sister of
William III d'Abrincis d. 1236, son of William II d.1230, son of Simon d.
1203, son of William the subject of the entry.

Sanders, I J (1960). English Baronies: a Study of their Origin and Descent,
1086-1327. Oxford: Clarendon. P.45

Tim Powys-Lybbe 5 March 2004

p.326 de Bidun, Johannes
"His daughters were Amice, wife of Hugh de Clinton."

Amice was wife of Henry de Clinton as correctly given on p. 403.

Tim Powys-Lybbe 9 March 2004

p. 397 de Clare, Adelicia

An internal inconsistency occurs here with Adelicia given as daughter of
Richard fitz Gilbert de Clare and Adelisa of Chester, whereas under Ricardus
II de Clare on p.398/399, she is not mentioned as one of his three
daughters. Another daughter not mentioned is Lucy, wife of Earl Baldwin de
Redvers, identified on p. 658 and p.245.

Tim Powys-Lybbe 9 March 2004

p.425 de Cundet, Robert
"He married Alice or Adelicia, probably the daughter of Ranulf I of Chester
and in 1136 widow of Gilbert fitz Richard de Clare."

The name is a mistake and should read Richard fitz Gilbert de Clare as given
on p.398

Peter Stewart 5 February 2004

p. 479 de Gloecestria, Lucia
"Wife of Herbert fitz Herbert the Chamberlain".

Technically this should be Herbert fitz Herbert fitz Herbert the Chamberlain

1.Herbert the Chamberlain
2. Herbert fitz Herbert
+ Sybil Corbet
3. Herbert fitz Herbert fitz Herbert the Chamberlain
+ Lucy of Gloucester

Tim Powys-Lybbe 3 March 2004


p. 411 de Cornubie, Dionisia
"...wife of Richard II de Redvers, earl of Devon."

Dionisia was wife of Richard I de Redvers, and Richard II de Redvers was her
son, as given on p.659.

Bearman, Robert (1994). Charters of the Redvers Family and the Earldom of
Devon, 1090-1217. Exeter: Devon and Cornwall Record Society. App II no. 15b

p.436 de Dol, Hadvisa Filia Geldewini
"Daughter of Gilduin of Dol (d.1137) and Noga of Tinteniac, wife of Robert
fitz Wimund of Avranches."

Hawise was wife of Robert fitz William fitz Wimund d'Avranches, as correctly
given in the preceding entry and on p.263 under 'de Abrincis, Robert'.

Gordon Kirkemo 5 August 2003

p.472 de Gand, Robert
"... he had issue ... Avice, wife of Robert de Beverley, mother of Maurice
de Gand ..."

This Robert, husband of Avice de Gant, is known as:
(a) Robert fitz Robert (fitz Harding). His father Robert fitz Harding was
the first of his line to get the Berkeley estates.
(b) Robert, Lord of Were, from Smyth's Lives of the Berkeleys.
(c) Robert de Ghent, after marrying Avice and according to Sanders,
Baronies, p.14.

Robert fitz Robert fitz Harding received an enormous number of properties
including Beverstone such that Smyth says "this Robert lyved in great
reputation litle inferior to his elder brother the lord Maurice, and was
attended with knights and other servants, of eminent familyes and
estimation." He was given the town and castle of Malmesbury by Henry the
second.

This Robert fitz Robert's marriages get confused by Smyth who thought he
married but once to Hawise de Gurney and they had two children, Maurice de
Gant and Eve de Gurnay. Smyth tried to account for Eve's name by saying she
married a Gurnay. The correct account is in Sanders p.14, note (6) where
Robert fitz Robert fitz Harding m. (1) Hawise de Gurney and (2) Avice de
Ghent /Gant / Gand. Maurice de Gand, son of Robert fitz Robert fitz Harding,
married first Maud d'Oilly, and secondly Margaret de Somery and d.s.p. in
1230.

Perhaps the entry could be revised to something like:

"... he had issue ... Avice, second wife of Robert fitz Robert Fitz Harding,
known also as Robert lord of Were and as Robert de Gand, and mother by
Robert of Maurice de Gand, d.s.p. 1230 ..."

Tim Powys-Lybbe 3 March 2004


p.493 de Gurnai, Hadvisa; p.303 de Ballon, Roger; p.401 de Clera, Roger
"Wife of Roger, son of Hamelin de Ballon".
"Son of Winebald de Ballon of Caerleon and Elizabeth. By his wife Hawise de
Gurnay he had issue three sons Roger, Hamelin and Arnold".

There is a discrepancy over whose son Roger was. Sanders p.68 indicates that
Roger was son of Winebald, but if Roger did father three sons by Hawise de
Gournay they must have died without issue, for by 1166 Winebald's daughter
Mabilia was his eventual heir, and Eve was the heir of Hawise de Gournay.
Hawise donated the advowson of Inglescome, Somerset to Bermondsey priory for
the soul of her husband Roger who may be identified as Roger de Clere who
died without issue in 1183/4. After his death she made an agreement with
Lewes priory (as Hawisam de Gurneio) by which she gave to the monks her land
in Atlingworth which she received in dower from Roger de Clere to hold of
her for £8 p.a. to be paid at her manor of Englishcombe, Somerset. It is
apparent from a curia regis roll of 1220, that this Hawise who donated the
advowson was also the wife of Robert f. Robert f. Harding, (third son of
Robert f. Harding, Lord of Berkeley), alias Robert de Ghent. Their daughter
Eve confirmed the gift to Bermondsey, and was married to Anselm de Gurnay
and Roger de Peauton (Pelton). Eve's son by Anselm, Robert de Gournay, was
heir to his half uncle Maurice (1184-1230), son of Robert f. Robert f.
Harding of Beverstone, Gloucs., by Alice de Ghent, as documented in Sanders
p. 14. In 1220 Robert de Gournay was still underage.

Mayr-Harting, H (editor, 1964). Acta of the Bishops of Chichester 1075-1207.
Canterbury and York Soc., pt 130

Edward Beaumont, June 2004

p.564 de Malpas, Letitia
"Daughter and coheiress of Robert fitz William (fl. 1086), sister of Richard
Mailard."

This statement conflicts with the entry in Domesday People under Robert fitz
Hugh on p.385 which says that Letitia was one of his daughters. The evidence
that Letitia was daughter of Robert fitz William, is implied by the fact
that she was sister of Richard Mailart, son of Robert fitz William and this
comes from G. Barraclough, 'The Charters of Anglo-Norman Earls of Chester,
c.1071-1237' (Record Society of Lancashire and Cheshire, vol. 126, 1988),
nos. 13 and 28. Robert fitz William does not appear in Domesday People as a
tenant of earl Hugh or otherwise.

Todd Farmerie 11 December 2003

p.568 de Mandeville comes, Willelm
"In the following year Beatrice de Say, wife of Geoffrey fitz Peter of
Ludgershall, daughter of William de Say and Beatrice, daughter of William I
de Mandeville, was recognized as heir of the Mandeville earls of Essex"

This is a correction to Prof. Keats-Rohan's correction to this entry.
Beatrice de Say was granddaughter of William de Say and Beatrice de
Mandeville, being daughter of their son William de Say II as outlined on
p.681

Todd Farmerie 9 January 2004

p.616 de Novomercato, Bernard
"He married Nesta, known as Agnes, daughter of Osbern fitz Richard and
Nesta, daughter of Gruffydd ap Llewelyn, prince of North Wales (k.1067)."

Gruffydd ap Llewelyn was killed in 1063 as correctly stated on p. 846.

Bevan Shortridge 22 April 2004

p.629 de Percy, Alan
"He married Emma, daughter of Gilbert I de Gand (d.c.1095), by whom he left
issue his son William II (d.1175/75 (sic)) and Walter."

This entry does not include his other son, Henry de Percy, identified on
p.630. Alan also left illegitimate sons - Alan and Geoffrey who witnessed
their brothers' charters.

Clay, Charles (1963). Early Yorkshire Charters. Vol. XI The Percy Fee.
Wakefield; Yorkshire Archaeological Society. p. 3

Gordon Kirkemo 11 December 2003


p. 634 de Pidington, Johanna
"Wife of Guy de Ridale and then of Simon de Gerardmoulin"

Joan is identified as sister of Thomas Basset, presumably the same as the
sheriff of Oxfordshire, in a charter by Malcolm IV, king of Scotland in
which he gave the vill of Piddington, Oxfordshire, to St Frideswide, Oxford.
Joan was married first to Guy de Ryhale (also known as Guy fitz Payn and Guy
de Cahaines) who gave permission to Ralph the hermit to found a chapel and
build a hermitage in Muswell (part of the fee of Piddington), which was
later granted to the abbey of Missenden, Bucks. By Guy she had a son and
heir, Thomas (DD 661, 662). She married secondly Simon de Gerardmoulin who
confirmed the grant around 1152/3. There is some suggestion that she married
thirdly Alberic de Dammartin, from the 15th-century MS copy of a surrender
made ca. 1160 of all rights claimed at Piddington by Missenden abbey to St
Frideswide's under the gift of Alberic, count of Dammartin & his wife Joan.
However the documents of the earlier gift refer to 'Albrici Comitis de
Damartyn & Iohane de Pidingtona, que fuit sponsa Guidonis de Riala', which
may not necessarily mean the two individuals were married, but gave their
interests separately.

Barrow, Geoffrey (editor,1960), The Acts of Malcolm IV King of Scots
1153-1165. (Regesta Regum Scottorum: vol. I.) p. 250 ; Wigram, S.R (editor,
1895). The Cartulary of the Monastery of St Frideswide at Oxford. (Oxford
Historical Society Publication; vol. 31) p.96 ; Jenkins, G.J. (editor,
1962). The Cartulary of Missenden Abbey, part III. London; HMSO. p.67

Peter Stewart, Rosie Bevan, 3 October 2004


p.659 de Redvers Comes, Ricardus II
"He died without issue in 1193, when his heir was his cousin William de
Vernon."

William de Vernon was Richard's uncle, not his cousin, as correctly shown on
p.768.

Bearman, Robert (1994). Charters of the Redvers Family and the Earldom of
Devon, 1090-1217. Exeter; Devon and Cornwall Record Society. P.110

Chris Phillips 11 February 2004


p.725 de Suligny, Aluredus

There is a typographical error in the reference given at the end of the
biography, "(Seayes, Derbyshire, ch. N.17 and 3)". For Seayes read Jeayes

Rosie Bevan 2 February 2004


p.754 de Valeines, Robert
"Married Rose Blund."

This is chronologically impossible. This Robert who died in 1178 has been
confused with his great-grandson Robert de Valeines who was married to Roese
Blund. Her brother, William, died in 1264 and at his inquisition taken the
same year Robert de Valoines, son of Roese, was stated to be 17 years of
age.

Anon. (1904). Calendar of Inquisitions Post-Mortem and other Analogous
Documents preserved in the Public Record Office. London: H.M.S.O. vol.I no.
585

Rosie Bevan 20 February 2004

p.781 de Welle, Ricardus
"Son of Robert of Wells...His successor by 1211 was Gervaise de Welles."

The Honor of Haganet, situated at Haughley in Suffolk, was created by
William I and given to Hugh II de Montfort for services during the Conquest,
in particular for the capture of Dover Castle. Before Henry of Essex, who
held the Constableship for a time until 1163, it was in the hands of
Robertus fitz Bernard de Vere who had married Adeliza de Montfort. She was
the sister of Robert II de Montfort who held the English de Montfort lands.
Some of these lands were granted to the Monks of Horton Priory, near Ashford
Kent. A charter, issued by Robertus de Vere, dated circa AD 1140-44, was
witnessed by Roberto de Well and Willelmo filio Normanni, Ricardo de Well
filio Roberti et Willelmo fratre. At some time after the death of Adeliza
1142 - 52 Henry of Essex assumed the Constableship. Ricardo de Welle
attested one of his charters. We know that by 1195 a Robert de Welles was
appearing before the Curia Regis in connection with a claim for land he had
inherited and that his father was Gervaise de Welles. The complainants in
the suit alleged that the land, which their family had owned since the
Conquest was taken by Henry of Essex and given to Gervaise de Welles. At the
same time (1194) the pipe roll for that year contained an entry for the
tallagium de Honoris de Haganet in which "Robertus de Welles et Willelmus de
Essetford debent scutagio militem eius dem honoris. Set requirendi sunt in
Kent." The Red Book of the Exchequer (p.613) contained a list of the wardens
of Dover Castle for 1211-12, including Essetford, Welles and Gervaise de
Welles. One other, Hudo de Chandos, had been alive in 1140, which
demonstrated that not all those listed were contemporaries. There is every
reason, therefore, to conclude that Gervaise de Welles likewise was alive
earlier, between 1152 and 1163, though which Robert he preceded (if they
were not the same person, as between the one who witnessed the de Ver
charter, and the one who appeared before the King`s court), is uncertain.

Scott, Charters of Monks Horton Priory; D.C.Douglas (1944). Domesday
Monachorum of Christ Church Canterbury; Palgrave, F (ed. 1928). Curiae Regis
Rotuli 1195-1200. London; Pipe Roll Society (vol.XLIII New Series) vol.5,
p.102; Hall, Hubert (ed. 1896). Red Book of the Exchequer. London; H.M.S.O.
pp.613-4

Peter Wells February 2004

p. 846 Filia Grufydd, Nesta
"Daughter of Gruffudd ap Llywelyn...and Angharad".

References usually give Angharad as Gruffudd's mother, and his wife as
Ealdgyth, daughter of Aelfgar of Mercia

Lloyd, J. E. (1911). History of Wales. London; Longmans & Co. v.2, pp. 367
n.31, chart p. 767 ; Davies, J. (1993). History of Wales. London. Allen Lane
Penguin Press. p.83 chart,101; Williams, A. (1995) The English and the
Norman Conquest p.52 chart, p.53 n.33

Bevan Shortridge 22 April 2004

p.1125 Tirel, Hugo
"Son of Walter IIII Tirel of Poix."

This is a typographical error and should read "Son of Walter III Tirel of
Poix."

Gordon Kirkemo 11 December 2003

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