Friday, 24 September, 2004
Hello All,
Following are the extracts from the PRO having to do with Sir Alexander
de Ledes, his brother Roger, his son Alexander, and others surnamed de Ledes
who remain to be placed.
Hope this is helpful.
Cheers,
John
=================================================================
PRO, Lancashire Record Office: Hornby Catholic Mission Papers (St Mary's
Church)Yorkshire: Cundall
Yorkshire: Gipton
Administrative History
These four items relate to Kirkstall Abbey
Reference: RCHY 3/2/19
Creation dates: n.d. [c.1250]
Language: Latin
Scope and Content
(1) Thomas son of Adam de Loftehusis [Lofthouse, co. Yorks.]
(2) Alexander son of Robert de Ledos [Leeds]
Gift of ¼ toft and croft and ¼a. land in the territory of Gipton which (1) has
by inheritance from his wife Alice. Warranty clause.
Witnesses: William Scot of Neuton, William de Alverton, William de Grimeston,
John de Gipton, Baldwin de Kaldecotes [Coldcotes], Adam the clerk of Gipton,
William Belle, Ranulph de Neuton, Robert the chaplain and Nicholas the clerk
Rent: 1½d. per annum to the abbot of Kyrkestal, and ¼d. per annum to Richard
de Gipton
Seal missing; tag; part of text cut out
=================================================================
PRO, Lancashire Record Office: Hornby Catholic Mission Papers (St Mary's
Church)Yorkshire: Cundall
Reference: RCHY 3/2/20
Creation dates: n.d. [c.1250]
Language: Latin
Scope and Content
(1) Amabel de Wodehusum [Woodhouse] daughter of Henry de ?Mechelay
(2) Alexander son of Robert de Ledes
Gift of ¼ toft and croft and ¼a. land in the territory of Gipton which (1) has
by inheritance from his father ?. Warranty clause.
Witnesses: William Scot of Neuton, William de Alverton, William de Grimeston,
John de Gipton, Baldwin de Kaldecotes [Coldcotes], Adam the clerk of Gipton,
William Belle, Ranulph de Neuton, Robert the chaplain and Nicholas the clerk
except Robert the chaplain
Rent: 1½d. per annum to the abbot of Kyrkestal, and ¼d. per annum to Richard
de Gipton
Seal
=================================================================
PRO, Lancashire Record Office: Hornby Catholic Mission Papers (St Mary's
Church)Yorkshire: Cundall
Reference: RCHY 3/2/21
Creation dates: n.d. [c.1250]
Language: Latin
Scope and Content
(1) Master Simon of Prestun, co. Yorks. and Methelay [Methley]
(2) Alexander son of Robert de Leds
Gift of ¼ toft and croft and ¼a. land in the territory of Gipton (the land
lying next to 'Scle') which (1) bought from Robert de ?Wambebel [?Wombwell],
the husband of Elizabeth, daughter of Henry the clerk of Metelay. Warranty
clause. Witnesses: William Scot of Neuton, William de Halverton, John son of
William de Parlington, William son of Alan de Grimestun, John de Grimestun,
John de Gipton, Constantine ?son of Robert, and Robert de ?Alterripa
Rent: as in RCHY 3/2/19
Seal
=================================================================
PRO, Lancashire Record Office: Hornby Catholic Mission Papers (St Mary's
Church)Yorkshire: Cundall
Reference: RCHY 3/2/22
Creation dates: n.d. [c.1250]
Language: Latin
Scope and Content
(1) Peter Coleman of Mechel' [?Methley]
(2) Alexander son of Robert de Ledis
Gift of ¼ toft and croft and ¼a. land in the territory of Gipton which (1) has
by inheritance from his wife Cecilia. Warranty clause.
Witnesses: as in RCHY 3/2/19, except Robert the chaplain and Nicholas the
clerk, but including William the clerk
Rent: as in RCHY 3/2/19
Seal missing; tag
=================================================================
PRO, West Yorkshire Archive Service, Bradford: Spencer-Stanhope Manuscripts
[SpSt/1 - SpSt/4]
Reference: SpSt/4/11/66/11
Feoffment
Creation dates: c.1230-1260
Language: Latin
Scope and Content
Between Brother Maurice, Abbot of Kirkstall and the Convent, of the one part,
and William son of William Fabri of Horsford, of the other part; of ½ an acre
of land for his homage and service in Horisford, that is, the ½ acre called
Lecrochedecroft, with toft and croft lying between the toft once of William
Faber on the west, and the toft once of Warin on the east, at a rent of ½ a
dicker of horse shoes
Witnesses: Hugh de Horisford, Richard the clerk of Led, Alexander de Led,
Thomas Hed, William Scotus de Neuton, Willian de Alreton, Henry Scottus de
Pudethesaie, Richard de Haia, Henry de Stulb, and others
Seal: green wax, vesica shaped, on tag; a standing figure holding in his left
hand a book
Legend: ----M. ABBATIS DE ----. Damaged
Endorsed: Lecrokedecroft
=================================================================
PRO, West Yorkshire Archive Service, Bradford: Spencer-Stanhope Manuscripts
[SpSt/1 - SpSt/4]
Reference: SpSt/4/11/66/12
Copy of 13th Century Feoffment
Creation dates: 17th Cent
Scope and Content
Between Nigel de Horsford, of the one part, and the Monks of Kirkstall, of the
other part; of a barn in Horsford which Robert son of Stamolt holds, to hold
in pure alms
Witnesses: Hugh de Lelei, Roger Scot, Hugh son of Jordan de Denby, Michael of
Leydon, Henry of Waldes, Adam of Cukeridge, and many more
on reverse - A general Release from John Kent of Pannal, husbandman, and Anne
his wife, in consideration of £10, to Henry Martin, Thomas Mashe, of all due
from George Fosstr of Cookeridge, to be paid by Anne his wife
=================================================================
PRO, West Yorkshire Archive Service, Bradford: Spencer-Stanhope Manuscripts
[SpSt/1 - SpSt/4]
Reference: SpSt/4/11/66/23
Feoffment
Creation dates: 13th Century
Language: Latin
Scope and Content
Between Robert son of William Brito de Pouill, of the one part, and the Monks
of Kirkstall, of the other part; of ½ an acre of land in Horseford called the
Croketcroft, with toft and croft lying between the toft once of William Faber
to the west, and the toft once of Warin to the east
Witnesses: Sir Nicholas Ward, William his nephew, William Scoticus of
Calverley, Alexander de Ledes, Richard the clerk of Ledes, Richard de la
Haye, Thomas Hedon, William Scoticus of Neuton, William de Alreton, Hugh de
Horseford, and many others
Seal: green wax, vesica shaped, on tag; a fleur-de-lys
Legend: SIGILL ROBERTI DE POVEL
=================================================================
PRO, West Yorkshire Archive Service, Bradford: Spencer-Stanhope Manuscripts
[SpSt/1 - SpSt/4]
Reference: SpSt/4/11/66/27b
Grant in Frankalmoign
Creation dates: 13th Century
Language: Latin
Scope and Content
Between Robert son of William de Breton of Pouill, of the one part, and the
Monks of Kirkstall, of the other part; of ½ an acre of land in Horsfort
called Croketcroft, with toft and croft lying between a toft of Thomas Faber,
and a toft of Warin.
Witnesses: Sir Nicholas Ward, William Ward, Alexander de Ledis, Richard de
Ledis, William Scoto, William de Alton. Robert de Wudehuses, and others.
Seal: green wax, vesica shaped, on tag; a fleur-de-lys.
Legend: +S ---- ROB----- POV---.
Endorsed: Croketcroftes.
=================================================================
PRO, Leicestershire, Leicester and Rutland Record Office: Peake MSS
Reference: DE220/12
Creation dates: N.D. (13th cent.)
Physical characteristics: Seal on tag, oval, natural wax, device,
"NICHOLA- ---DEOLER"
Scope and Content
Grant: Nich., son of Adam son of Thos. de Gypton, to Thos. his son: for his
service and a sum of money, all the land which grantor had in Gypton by
inheritance after the death of Matilda his sister, to wit, 2 acres of land
with toft, building and garden which he held by gift of the Hospital of St.
John of Neuland, one bovate of land which he held of Roger Pogge & Margaret
his wife, ½ bovate of land which he held of Alex. de Ledys, and a fourth part
of a bovate of land lying in divers coulters there: to hold for ever, paying
annually to the brothers of the Hospital of St. John of Neuland 8 pence at
Easter and Michaelmas by.equal portions, to the heirs of Roger Pogge and
Margaret his wife 4 pence at Pentecost and Martinmas by equal portions, and
to Alex de Ledys 4 pence at the same terms, for all secular services:
warranty and sealing clauses: witn: Sir Alex de Ledys, knt.; Thos. de
Caldecotes; Wm. de Allirton; Thos. son of Wm. de Gypton; Robt. son of Robt.
of the same; Alex. de Caldecotes.
=================================================================
PRO, Leicestershire, Leicester and Rutland Record Office: Peake MSS
Reference: DE220/27
Creation dates: N.D. (13th cent.)
Physical characteristics: Tag for seal, fragment of white wax
Scope and Content
Grant: John de Gypthona to Richd. de Stokethon in Cliveland, residing in
Allirthona: one acre of land in GYPTHONA, lying between the land of Alex. de
Ledes on both sides & abuts, one end on Allirthon and the other on the way to
Hallestedes: to hold freely for ever with free ingress and egress and with
all liberties and easements appertaining to the land, paying annual rent of
one rose at feast of SS. Peter and Paul for all service: warranty and sealing
clauses: witn: Alex. de Ledes; Wm. Scott; Wm. de Allirton Wm. de Cimiter; Wm.
de Grimston; Thos. de Caldekotes.
=================================================================
PRO, Warwickshire County Record Office: Waller of Woodcote
Reference: CR 26/1/12/L/27
Indented deed of settlement made between Humphrey de Bassingburn
[?Bassingbourn, Cambs.] and Mary his wife, and John of Thorneton [Thornton]
and Mathilda his wife concerning property in the manors of Ellerton and
Thorneton Steward.; Witnesses: Geoffrey de Hewik' [?Copt or Bridge Hewick in
West Riding nr. Ripon] Thomas de Burton [Burton], Alexander de Ledes [Leeds],
knights, William de Stodlay [Studley Roger or Royal nr. Ripon], Simon de
Munketon [Bishop Monkton nr. Ripon], Roger de Thorneton [Thornton], Thomas
de Thorneton, Henry de Bassingburne, clerk, Henry de Midelton [Middleton],
Henry de Ripon, William de Burgus [?Brough], Michael de Laton, Adam de
Richmond, clerk.
Creation dates: Dated at York, Wednesday next after the Translation of St.
Thomas the Martyr, 7 Edward I [12 July, 1279]
=================================================================
PRO, West Yorkshire Archive Service, Leeds: Weston Hall Records
Reference: WYL639/158
Gift
Creation dates: n.d. (c.1290)
Scope and Content
By Elyas called Freeman to Master Adam le Fraunceys of a ploughland at
Neutonwath in the fields of Ryppeley next to the land of the church of the
same on the north (aquilonem) containing 2½ acres with meadow adjoyning, to
hold of the chief lord paying 2d at Christmas and 4 pipes of wine at St. John
Baptist.
Witnesses: Sir Peter Bekard, Sir Thomas de Burton, knights; William de
Ryppeley, John de Brereton, Nicholas de Vall', Robert de Steynley, Thomas
Turpyn, Robert del Led'.
Seal on tag, white wax, no impression.
=================================================================
PRO, West Yorkshire Archive Service, Leeds: Weston Hall Records
Reference: WYL639/159
Lease indented
Creation dates: 4 Jun 1304
Scope and Content
By Ralph de Stopham to Sir John de Merkyngfeld, rector of Estkrike, of 2
bovates in Ryppelay and a rent of 10s p.a. from 2 tofts, 2 crofts and 2
bovates there occupied by Ivo Swayn and Alice his wife as life tenants of
Stopham, for 20 years at 40s p.a.
Witnesses: William de Ryppelay, Robert de Staynlay, John de Brereton, Robert
Dns Leeds, Roger de Clitcherom (Clotherholme).
At York, Thursday after the feast of Petronilla the Virgin, 32 Edward I.
Seal in brown wax, small, round, on parchment tag: a human head, legend
illegible.
================================================================
PRO, West Yorkshire Archive Service, Leeds: Temple Newsam Collection
[WYL100/HO - WYL100/DZ], WYL100/LS/26-43: Miscellaneous Leeds Deeds ,
Reference: WYL100/LS/26
Copy of a Grant
Creation dates: [25 Mar 1311]
John Abbot of Kirkstall and the Convent to John de Calverley
Consideration: Homage and services, and 2s. -d. payable half-yearly at the
feasts of Pentecost and St.Martin in Winter.
Parcels:
that the said John and his heirs and their tenants at Calverley and the rector
of the church there should have common of pasture for all beasts (except
goats) during the whole year on the common pasture at Bramley lying on the
west of the town, and which extends from the stream called Baggelay Becke
towards Calverlay, which stream is divided between Calverlay and Bramley as
far as the new foss at Bramley, and one branch abuts upon the east of the
pasture called Gibberode enge and the other upon assarted land called
Nicolrode; and if his cattle stray on to pasture of the abbey adjoining,
they shall not be impounded but driven back unless they do damage to corn,
when he shall make amends.
The abbot also grants to John that he may make 2 ponds for 2 mills and move
the same and renew them upon the old and right bank of Baggelay Beck
wheresoever he will provided the building does no damage to the abbot's
property.
Covenant to pay the rent of 2s. -d. p.a. and in default the abbot to have
right of distraint.
Saving to the abbot all homage and services due from John de Rothelay for
common of pasture and all service due from 1 carucate of land in Farsley.
Witnesses: Sir Simon Ward, Henry de Rothelay, William de Beston knt., Richard
de Tange, Roger de Ledes, William Pacefyn, Michael de Raudon.
Given at Kirkestall in the Feat of the Annunciation of B.V.M. 1311.
Memorandum: This is a true copy of an old Copy writt in paper and said to be
a coppie word for word of the grant of Common in Colehill....
=================================================================
PRO, East Riding of Yorkshire Archives and Records Service:
Chichester-Constable Family [DDCC/111 - DDCC/135]
Reference: DDCC/130/4
Gift
Creation dates: 1 Feb 1316/7
Scope and Content
John de Eynill, lord of Thornton super Swale to Thomas son of Ralph de Cundale
and his wife Emma for their lives, property: messuage with a croft, 2
bovates, 1½ ac. 1r. land in Cundale which the said Thomas sometime held of
him in bondage Rendering 19s. 1d. yearly for all services except suit of
court of the mill at Thornton. Witn. William the forester ("Forestar"), John
Winmer ad Houel, Richard the cook ("Coco"), of Thornton, Robert the fisher
("Piscator") of the same. Given at Thornton.
=================================================================
PRO, East Riding of Yorkshire Archives and Records Service:
Chichester-Constable Family [DDCC/111 - DDCC/135]
Reference: DDCC/130/5
Letter of Attorney
Creation dates: 28 Sep 1321
Scope and Content
John son of Sir John de Eynill of Egmanton to William le Warener of Cundale,
property: to deliver seisin to Alexander of Ledes and wife Elizabeth of a
place of land and wood called Lytelapelgath and of 2 ac. adjacent land to the
N. in Cundale, with power to enclose Given at Thorneton super Swale.
=================================================================
PRO, East Riding of Yorkshire Archives and Records Service:
Chichester-Constable Family [DDCC/111 - DDCC/135]
Reference: DDCC/130/6
Gift
Creation dates: 14 Oct 1321
Scope and Content
John son of Sir John de Eynill lord of Egmanton to Alexander de Ledes and
wife Elizabeth, property: all his town of Cundale near Thornton super Swale
and all appurtenances in demesne as far as the boundary between Cundale and
Thornton called Heggebeck Witn. Sir John Marmion, Sir John de Walkyngham, Sir
Robert Coyners, Sir Robert de Plompton, Sir Richard de Bernyngham, Sir Robert
de Waddeslay, Sir William Darell, William de Eskelby, William de Cundale,
Warner, John de Wynnemer, John de Mauneby, Robert le Fissher. Given at
Cundale, Seal, armorial on a fess between 4 fleurs-de-lys, 2 fleurs-de-lys.
=================================================================
PRO, East Riding of Yorkshire Archives and Records Service:
Chichester-Constable Family [DDCC/111 - DDCC/135]
Reference: DDCC/130/7
Demise
Creation dates: 12 Mar. 1321/2
Scope and Content
Alexander de Ledes and wife Elizabeth to Sir John de Eynill, lord of Egmanton,
for his wife, property: all their town of Cundale near Thorneton super Swale
Rendering 1d yearly. Given at Cundale Witn. Sir John Marmyun, Sir John de
Walkyngham, Sir Robert Coyners, Sir Robert de Plumton, Sir Richard de
Bernyngham, Sir Robert de Waddeslay, William de Eskelby, William de Cundale
Warener, John de Wymmer, John de Manneby, Robert le Fissher. Seal, armorial,
on a fess between four fleurs-de-lys, two fleurs-de-lys.
=================================================================
** NOTE DATE ERROR - evidently ca. 1325 or later (Adam de Everingham shown
m. to Margaret, widow of John d'Eyvill)
PRO, East Riding of Yorkshire Archives and Records Service:
Chichester-Constable Family [DDCC/111 - DDCC/135]
Reference: DDCC/130/3
Final Concord
Creation dates: Easter (1311?)
Scope and Content
Alexander de Ledes and wife Margaret (by their attorney Peter de Richemond)
plaintiffs, and Boniface de Ledes deforceant, property: manors of Thorneton
super Swale, Cundale, Kyrkeby super Moram, Ledes and Gypton, with 5
messuages, 6 bovates and 7 ac. land and 60 ac. wood in Mideby and Letteby
A. and M. to have manors of Ledes, Gipton and Kyrkeby, and two parts of the
manors of Thornton and Cundale and their appurtenances (except 6 messuages,
7 tofts, 23 bovates and 32 land and 29 ac. meadow in the manors of Kyrkeby
and the two parts of the manors of Thornton and Cundale); and they shall
also have the remainders of the third part of the manors of Thornton and
Cundale, and of specified property in those manors and in Kyrkeby on deaths
of tenants (Adam de Everingham and wife Margaret, Robert de Stokesle and
wife Adeline, Thomas de Fencotes, Thomas de Vallibus chaplain, Nicholas de
Hewyk, Geoffrey de Lutterworth and wife Beatrix, William de Popelton, Robert
de Ellerton, John son of Alan de Brafeford, William de Herneby and wife
Mariot).
=================================================================
PRO, Lancashire Record Office: Hornby Catholic Mission Papers (St Mary's
Church)Yorkshire: Cundall
Reference: RCHY 3/2/17
Creation dates: 1342/3 8 Feb
Language: Latin
Scope and Content
(1) William Darel of ?Seisray [?Sessay], knight
(2) Master ---- of Toppecliff, chaplain
(3) Alexander de ?Lede and Margaret his wife
Letter of attorney from (1) to (2) to deliver seisin to (3) of lands in the
town and territory of Cundale [Cundall] which (3) gave to (1). Given at
Seisray on Saturday after the Purification of the B.V.M.
Seal missing; fragile
=================================================================
PRO, Leicestershire, Leicester and Rutland Record Office: Peake MSS
Reference: DE220/34
Creation dates: N.D. (14th cent)
Scope and Content
Grant: Gillian daughter of Roger Pogge of Giptona to Alex. son of Alex. de
Ledes: all grantor's land, meadow pasture and right in the moor of Gyptona
as lies from Mikkilsik to the east, and four selions of land lying in
Wellecroftes, one end abutting on the way leading from Gyptona to Neutona
and the other on Sibyllerode, and one selion lying near Sibyllerode in
length between Sibyllerode and the land of said Alex: to hold for ever,
free of all services and secular demands, paying annually to grantor one
halfpenny at Easter: warranty and sealing clauses: witn: Wm. son of Wm.
de Ledes; Wm. Pictavus; Wm. de Allirtona; Wm. de Grimestona; Thos. de
Kaldecotes; Thos. son of John de Gyptona; Walt. son of Ranulf de Neutona;
Richd. de Killingbek.
=========================
re: a probable descendant:
PRO, Leicestershire, Leicester and Rutland Record Office: Peake MSS
Reference: DE220/43
Creation dates: 13 Ric. II, St. Martin in winter
Physical characteristics: Seal on tag, red wax, armorial
Language: French
Scope and Content
Grant; chirograph: Sir Alex. de Nevill, knt., to Sir Roger de Ledes, knt.: all
the houses and barns within the manor of GYPTON, with free entry and egress
for a term of 3 years, paying £23:6s:7d., viz., 10 marks at feast of St.
Andrew, 10 marks at feast of St. Peter as vincula following, and £10 at
Christmas following: if said Sir Roger be disturbed by Sir Alex. in
occupation of the said premises, then Sir Roger to be discharged of the said
payment and Sir Alex. to be bound to him to pay £46 when required: sealing
clause: written at Shirburn.
CP Addition: Margaret, wife of (1) Sir John Deiville and (2)
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Chris Phillips
Re: CP Addition: Margaret, wife of (1) Sir John Deiville and
Presumably the gateway is broken again, so I'm taken the liberty of posting
Rosie Bevan's two contributions to soc.genealogy.medieval, which John kindly
copied to me.
Rosie's observation that there are two different Thorntons involved
certainly clears up one puzzle.
I wonder if the VCH accounts of Cundall and Thornton Bridge would shed any
light on things. Volume 1 for the North Riding has an article on Cundall
with Leckby, and volume 2 one on Brafferton (the parish containing Thornton
Bridge).
On the face of it, it does look as though the 1321/2 transaction may have
been effectively a sale to de Ledes, preserving Margaret's dower rights.
On the possible significance of Adam de Everingham having had a son named
Alexander, one thing that's not clear is whether Alexander was his son by
Margaret, or by his first wife Clarice. It does seem possible that all the
sons named in CP v 187 note g could have been sons of Clarice, as the
marriage lasted at least 13 years.
Chris Phillips
________________________________________________________________________
Sun, 26 Sep 2004 00:24:18 +1200
Dear John
Your persistence and energy in pursuing the Everingham line are nothing
short of admirable. You have unearthed some interesting evidence, but the
interpretation of the fines is perhaps not quite in line of what they
represent, as they actually indicate that Margaret was a Ledes widow, not a
daughter.
From the fine you give as [5] it is clear that Adam de Everingham and
Margaret were holding a third of Thornton and Cundall as Margaret's dower
(Alexander and Margaret de Ledes had the other two thirds), and on her
death it would revert back to the Ledes family.
Stronger evidence for this is the text of a similar 1334 (or perhaps the
same) fine reproduced in W. Pailey Baildon, 'Feet of Fines for the County
of York from 1327-1347'. Wakefield: The Yorks. Archaeological Society, 1910.
p.60.
"Westminster. Quindene of Easter, 4 Edw III, 1330
Octave of the Purification, 8 Edw III, 1334
Alexander de Ledes and Margaret his wife, by Peter de Rychemond their
attorney, quer., and Boneface de Ledes, def., of the manors of Thorneton on
Swale, Cundale, Kyrkeby on the Moor, Ledes and Gypton, and of 5 messuages, 6
bovates and 7 acres of land and 60 acres of wood, in Myldeby and Lecceby: To
hold to Alexander and Margaret and the heirs of their bodies, subject to the
life interest which Margaret wife of Adam de Everyngham has by way of dower
in one third of the manors of Thorneton and Cundale..."
This shows that Margaret was a Ledes widow, not a daughter, and all the
transactions over Cundall and Thornton by John Deiville and Adam Everingham
and the Ledes family reflect this.
Which brings us to the question of the identity of Margaret's husband. The
biography of Alexander de Ledes from Knights of Edward I may have conflated
a father and son as it was Alexander, son of Alexander de Ledes who made the
gift to Kirkstall in 1325 ("Item de Alexandro de Ledes filio domini
Alexandri de Ledes militis unam bovatem terrae cum pertinenciis in Gledhow
Allerton cum quadam arca bosci qui vocatur Sampsongreve" - Monasticon
Anglicanum, vol. V, p.546). There is no IPM for the elder Alexander de Ledes
which makes dating his death difficult, but 'Alexander, son of Alexander de
Ledes' was active in 1307 when he bought land by fine [M.Roper, 'Feet of
Fines for the County of York from 1300-1314'. Wakefield: The Yorks.
Archaeological Society, 1965. p.63].
More particularly John d'Eiville had possession of Margaret's dower in
Cundall and Thornton in 1316 which obviously puts her husband's death before
then [Feudal Aids, vol.VI, p.187]. Whether she was a younger wife of the
father, or of an elder brother who died young, there is not enough
information to tell. Given that Margaret had children by Adam de Everingham
in the 1330s, it is unlikely that she was mother of the younger Alexander
who was acting in an adult capacity in 1307.
I'm afraid this still leaves us with a mystery over the identity of
Margaret.
Cheers
Rosie
________________________________________________________________________
9/26/2004 7:58:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time
Dear John
Thank you for your reply. I agree the matter deserves further research and
have spent a bit more time today doing just that.
It transpires that we are dealing with two Thorntons. One is
Thornton-on-the-hill (or 'super montem' and 'super le hil', as appear in the
Mowbray IPMs concerning the Deyville holdings), now known as Thornton Hill
which is in the parish of Coxwold, four miles north of Easingwold, a short
distance from their holding in Kilburn. It was this estate and two mills in
Baxby, a mile north of Thornton Hill, which John de Ellerker bought from
John Deyville in 1322.
"Westminster. Quindene of Easter, 15 Edw II, 1322
John de Ellerker, senior, quer., John de Eyvill of Egmanton, def., of the
manor of Thornton on the Hill and two mills in Baxby: and after the death of
John de Eyvill--- [the rest left blank]
Octave of Michaelmas, 5 Edw III, 1331
John de Ellerker, quer., Robert, son and heir of John de Eyville, def. of
the same property: To hold to Ellerker and his heirs, subject to the life
estate which Isabel widow of John de Vescy has by demise from John de
Eyvill. Ellerker gave £100. Isabel was present and consenting, and did
fealty."
[W. Pailey Baildon, 'Feet of Fines for the County of York from 1327-1347'.
Wakefield: The Yorks. Archaeological Society, 1910. p.37]
The other Thornton was Thornton-super-Swale, now known as Thornton Bridge, a
mile south-east of Cundall and 10 miles west of Thornton-on-the-hill, and a
completely different estate. It is not surprising, therefore, that each
Thornton was described specifically in each fine, and solves that little
puzzle about the Ellerker sale.
Another thing we needed to establish was the prior ownership of Cundall and
Thornton Bridge for which, to 1316, no evidence in CP or elsewhere to date
has been available. As it happens John de Deyville appears in 1284/85
holding a major part of both, according to Feudal Aids, vol VI, p. 104,
which gives the names of three landholders. At a fifth level of tenancy John
held 6 carucates (John Deyville-James de Norff-Geoffrey de Neville-Ranulf de
Sleys-Roger de Mowbray-the king), the prior of Newburgh held one carucate,
and Nicholas de la Rivere held another carucate. ["THORNETON CUNDALE. - In
eadem villa sunt viij. car. terre, unde xij. car. faciunt f.m. ; de quibus
Johannes de Eyville tenet vj. car. de Jacobo de Norff, et idem Jacobus de
Galfrido de Neville, et idem Galfridus de Ranulfo de Sleys, et idem Ranulfus
de Rogerus de Moubray, et idem Rogerus de rege; et reddit per annum ad finem
predictum iij.s : et prior de Novo Burgo tenet j. car., nomine dotis
ecclesiae sue, sed non dicitur de quo; Nicholas de la Ryver tenet j. car. de
Rogero Moubray, et idem Rogerus de rege; et reddit per annum ad finem
predictum xij.d."].
I think this does establish that John Deyville sold his holding in Cundall
and Thornton Bridge to Alexander de Ledes, but does not necessarily
establish a family connection with Margaret. There is no reason to believe
that John and Margaret's marriage would have taken place following the
Cundall fine unless it represented her marriage portion and I find it
difficult to believe that it is anything else but an exchange of life
interest by John for 1d rent a year in return for eventual possession and an
arrangement for dower, especially as no financial transaction is recorded
(though this may have been left out of the A2A abstract). Following on from
this I'm doubtful about the usefulness of using it as a parameter for the
birth of Joan Deyville. It would be helpful to find the full text of the
fine as it would be more specific with the details.
Hopefully this has helped provide further Ledes.
Cheers
Rosie
Rosie Bevan's two contributions to soc.genealogy.medieval, which John kindly
copied to me.
Rosie's observation that there are two different Thorntons involved
certainly clears up one puzzle.
I wonder if the VCH accounts of Cundall and Thornton Bridge would shed any
light on things. Volume 1 for the North Riding has an article on Cundall
with Leckby, and volume 2 one on Brafferton (the parish containing Thornton
Bridge).
On the face of it, it does look as though the 1321/2 transaction may have
been effectively a sale to de Ledes, preserving Margaret's dower rights.
On the possible significance of Adam de Everingham having had a son named
Alexander, one thing that's not clear is whether Alexander was his son by
Margaret, or by his first wife Clarice. It does seem possible that all the
sons named in CP v 187 note g could have been sons of Clarice, as the
marriage lasted at least 13 years.
Chris Phillips
________________________________________________________________________
Sun, 26 Sep 2004 00:24:18 +1200
Dear John
Your persistence and energy in pursuing the Everingham line are nothing
short of admirable. You have unearthed some interesting evidence, but the
interpretation of the fines is perhaps not quite in line of what they
represent, as they actually indicate that Margaret was a Ledes widow, not a
daughter.
From the fine you give as [5] it is clear that Adam de Everingham and
Margaret were holding a third of Thornton and Cundall as Margaret's dower
(Alexander and Margaret de Ledes had the other two thirds), and on her
death it would revert back to the Ledes family.
Stronger evidence for this is the text of a similar 1334 (or perhaps the
same) fine reproduced in W. Pailey Baildon, 'Feet of Fines for the County
of York from 1327-1347'. Wakefield: The Yorks. Archaeological Society, 1910.
p.60.
"Westminster. Quindene of Easter, 4 Edw III, 1330
Octave of the Purification, 8 Edw III, 1334
Alexander de Ledes and Margaret his wife, by Peter de Rychemond their
attorney, quer., and Boneface de Ledes, def., of the manors of Thorneton on
Swale, Cundale, Kyrkeby on the Moor, Ledes and Gypton, and of 5 messuages, 6
bovates and 7 acres of land and 60 acres of wood, in Myldeby and Lecceby: To
hold to Alexander and Margaret and the heirs of their bodies, subject to the
life interest which Margaret wife of Adam de Everyngham has by way of dower
in one third of the manors of Thorneton and Cundale..."
This shows that Margaret was a Ledes widow, not a daughter, and all the
transactions over Cundall and Thornton by John Deiville and Adam Everingham
and the Ledes family reflect this.
Which brings us to the question of the identity of Margaret's husband. The
biography of Alexander de Ledes from Knights of Edward I may have conflated
a father and son as it was Alexander, son of Alexander de Ledes who made the
gift to Kirkstall in 1325 ("Item de Alexandro de Ledes filio domini
Alexandri de Ledes militis unam bovatem terrae cum pertinenciis in Gledhow
Allerton cum quadam arca bosci qui vocatur Sampsongreve" - Monasticon
Anglicanum, vol. V, p.546). There is no IPM for the elder Alexander de Ledes
which makes dating his death difficult, but 'Alexander, son of Alexander de
Ledes' was active in 1307 when he bought land by fine [M.Roper, 'Feet of
Fines for the County of York from 1300-1314'. Wakefield: The Yorks.
Archaeological Society, 1965. p.63].
More particularly John d'Eiville had possession of Margaret's dower in
Cundall and Thornton in 1316 which obviously puts her husband's death before
then [Feudal Aids, vol.VI, p.187]. Whether she was a younger wife of the
father, or of an elder brother who died young, there is not enough
information to tell. Given that Margaret had children by Adam de Everingham
in the 1330s, it is unlikely that she was mother of the younger Alexander
who was acting in an adult capacity in 1307.
I'm afraid this still leaves us with a mystery over the identity of
Margaret.
Cheers
Rosie
________________________________________________________________________
9/26/2004 7:58:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time
Dear John
Thank you for your reply. I agree the matter deserves further research and
have spent a bit more time today doing just that.
It transpires that we are dealing with two Thorntons. One is
Thornton-on-the-hill (or 'super montem' and 'super le hil', as appear in the
Mowbray IPMs concerning the Deyville holdings), now known as Thornton Hill
which is in the parish of Coxwold, four miles north of Easingwold, a short
distance from their holding in Kilburn. It was this estate and two mills in
Baxby, a mile north of Thornton Hill, which John de Ellerker bought from
John Deyville in 1322.
"Westminster. Quindene of Easter, 15 Edw II, 1322
John de Ellerker, senior, quer., John de Eyvill of Egmanton, def., of the
manor of Thornton on the Hill and two mills in Baxby: and after the death of
John de Eyvill--- [the rest left blank]
Octave of Michaelmas, 5 Edw III, 1331
John de Ellerker, quer., Robert, son and heir of John de Eyville, def. of
the same property: To hold to Ellerker and his heirs, subject to the life
estate which Isabel widow of John de Vescy has by demise from John de
Eyvill. Ellerker gave £100. Isabel was present and consenting, and did
fealty."
[W. Pailey Baildon, 'Feet of Fines for the County of York from 1327-1347'.
Wakefield: The Yorks. Archaeological Society, 1910. p.37]
The other Thornton was Thornton-super-Swale, now known as Thornton Bridge, a
mile south-east of Cundall and 10 miles west of Thornton-on-the-hill, and a
completely different estate. It is not surprising, therefore, that each
Thornton was described specifically in each fine, and solves that little
puzzle about the Ellerker sale.
Another thing we needed to establish was the prior ownership of Cundall and
Thornton Bridge for which, to 1316, no evidence in CP or elsewhere to date
has been available. As it happens John de Deyville appears in 1284/85
holding a major part of both, according to Feudal Aids, vol VI, p. 104,
which gives the names of three landholders. At a fifth level of tenancy John
held 6 carucates (John Deyville-James de Norff-Geoffrey de Neville-Ranulf de
Sleys-Roger de Mowbray-the king), the prior of Newburgh held one carucate,
and Nicholas de la Rivere held another carucate. ["THORNETON CUNDALE. - In
eadem villa sunt viij. car. terre, unde xij. car. faciunt f.m. ; de quibus
Johannes de Eyville tenet vj. car. de Jacobo de Norff, et idem Jacobus de
Galfrido de Neville, et idem Galfridus de Ranulfo de Sleys, et idem Ranulfus
de Rogerus de Moubray, et idem Rogerus de rege; et reddit per annum ad finem
predictum iij.s : et prior de Novo Burgo tenet j. car., nomine dotis
ecclesiae sue, sed non dicitur de quo; Nicholas de la Ryver tenet j. car. de
Rogero Moubray, et idem Rogerus de rege; et reddit per annum ad finem
predictum xij.d."].
I think this does establish that John Deyville sold his holding in Cundall
and Thornton Bridge to Alexander de Ledes, but does not necessarily
establish a family connection with Margaret. There is no reason to believe
that John and Margaret's marriage would have taken place following the
Cundall fine unless it represented her marriage portion and I find it
difficult to believe that it is anything else but an exchange of life
interest by John for 1d rent a year in return for eventual possession and an
arrangement for dower, especially as no financial transaction is recorded
(though this may have been left out of the A2A abstract). Following on from
this I'm doubtful about the usefulness of using it as a parameter for the
birth of Joan Deyville. It would be helpful to find the full text of the
fine as it would be more specific with the details.
Hopefully this has helped provide further Ledes.
Cheers
Rosie