CP error? Re stewarts?

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Leo van de Pas

CP error? Re stewarts?

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 24 sep 2004 04:17:15

CP VIII Page 206
Here is shown that Richard Lovel (died 1350/1351) married before 1307 a Muriel.
Is is before 1307 but probably not many years as circa 1306 their son James was born.
Muriel died in 1318. I would guess that Muriel was born about 1280-1290.

In the text we are told that Muriel was daughter and heir of Sir John de Soules by Hawise sister of Sir James FitzAlan, Steward of Scotland. In a footnote we find that Hawise had from her brother two-thirds of the town of Old Roxburgh in fee marriage, and her rights descended to the Lovels.

The only James Steward of Scotland anywhere near in time seems to be James, 5th High Steward of Scotland, son of Alexander, 4th High Steward of Scotland. It was the 3rd High Steward who had adopted the name of Stewart as surname. Which indicates that the mentioned name of Sir James FitzAlan, Steward of Scotland is wrong. On top of that, apparently, James was born circa 1243 and if Muriel, his "sister" was born 1280-1290, there is a big gap between their births. If Alexander is Muriel's father, he died in 1283, this means that Muriel would have been born 1280-1283 making her about 23-26 when she gave birth to her son.

Still, Alexander 4th High Steward, is recorded with three (legitimate) children:
1.James
2.Elizabeth whose husband, Sir William Douglas, died in The Tower in 1296.
3.Sir John Stewart, of Bonkyl

Is there any knowledge that Muriel is a daughter, legitimate or illegitimate, of Alexander, 4th High Stewart of Scotland?

At the moment I have hardly all immediate descendants of Richard Lovel in my system, but hs is at least an ancestor of Camilla Parker-Bowles, John Ravilious, John Steele Gordon and Brom Nichol Jr., then Presidents Calvin Coolidge and Frankilin Delano Roosevelt and the following gateway ancestors:

John Alston
Richard Bellingham
Capt. Francis Champernoun
William Farrar
Anne Hemphrey
Percival Lowell
John Nelson
Herbert Pelham
Edward Raynsford
Charles Rodes
Rev.William Skepper
Maria Joanna Somerset
George Yate

Hope someone can find an answer. Many thanks.
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

Chris Phillips

Re: CP error? Re stewarts?

Legg inn av Chris Phillips » 24 sep 2004 08:41:29

Leo van de Pas wrote:
CP VIII Page 206
Here is shown that Richard Lovel (died 1350/1351) married before 1307 a
Muriel.
Is is before 1307 but probably not many years as circa 1306 their son
James was born.
Muriel died in 1318. I would guess that Muriel was born about 1280-1290.

In the text we are told that Muriel was daughter and heir of Sir John de
Soules by Hawise sister of Sir James FitzAlan, Steward of Scotland. In a

footnote we find that Hawise had from her brother two-thirds of the town of
Old Roxburgh in fee marriage, and her rights descended to the Lovels.
The only James Steward of Scotland anywhere near in time seems to be
James, 5th High Steward of Scotland, son of Alexander, 4th High Steward of

Scotland. It was the 3rd High Steward who had adopted the name of Stewart as
surname. Which indicates that the mentioned name of Sir James FitzAlan,
Steward of Scotland is wrong. On top of that, apparently, James was born
circa 1243 and if Muriel, his "sister" was born 1280-1290, there is a big
gap between their births. If Alexander is Muriel's father, he died in 1283,
this means that Muriel would have been born 1280-1283 making her about 23-26
when she gave birth to her son.
Still, Alexander 4th High Steward, is recorded with three (legitimate)
children:
1.James
2.Elizabeth whose husband, Sir William Douglas, died in The Tower in 1296.
3.Sir John Stewart, of Bonkyl

Isn't it Hawise, Muriel's mother, who is the sister of Sir James, and
therefore possibly the daughter of Alexander? This gets rid of the
chronological difficulty.

Chris Phillips

Alex Maxwell Findlater

Re: CP error? Re stewarts?

Legg inn av Alex Maxwell Findlater » 24 sep 2004 20:56:27

I have the same as Chris on the pedigree. I presume that CP had some
document in mind, probably a grant to one of the nearby Scottish
monasteries, when quoting Sir James FitzAlan. At this period,
surnames had not crystalized, so it might well be that Sir James
FitzAlan sometimes was called that and sometimes Sir James Stewart,
more likely of course Jacobus Senescallus, miles, which could mean Sir
James the steward, as well as Sir James Stewart.

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