Annette Savage and Pocahontas - Bonapartes

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Matthew Rockefeller

Annette Savage and Pocahontas - Bonapartes

Legg inn av Matthew Rockefeller » 21 sep 2004 05:46:11

I have read that Annette Savage, the mistress of Prince Joseph
Bonaparte, brother of Napoleon, was a descendant of Poncahontas. Is
anyone aware of this descent? Annette was the mother of two of Prince
Joseph's children, one of whom lived to adulthood and probably still
has descendants living in Pennsylvania, New York, and Chicago,
Illinois.

Matthew

Gjest

Re: Annette Savage and Pocahontas - Bonapartes

Legg inn av Gjest » 21 sep 2004 13:24:46

I'm unaware of this, but are you aware of the recently published book '
Betsy bonaparte', the belle of Baltimore , by my cousin Claude
Bourguignon-Frasseto, published by the Maryland Historical Society - that gives insight onto
their descendants including the Founder of the FBI, one of their grandchildren.

regards
Peter de Loriol

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Annette Savage And Pocahontas - Bonapartes

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 21 sep 2004 15:22:29

Interesting post.

Yes -- "Red Bollings" and "White Bollings" and Political Correctness be
damned.

Are you related to the Maryland Duvalls?

Thanks.

DSH

"""" <jeffery@iquest.net> wrote in message
news:1095789681.41506c713beff@webmail.iquest.net...

| I wouldn't claim to be an expert on the subject, but my hunch is that
this
| should be fairly easy to determine, one way or the other. If Annette
Savage
| was indeed an actual direct descendant of Pocahontas it could only be
through
| Col. John Rolfe of Cobbs Hall (1676-1729) as he is the only known and
or
| documented great-grandchild of Pocahontas and John Rolfe, just as his
mother,
| Jane Rolfe (d. 1676) is their only known (and documented) grandchild.
His
| father, Col. Robert Bolling, however, also had a number of children by
another
| wife (or wives for all I know), so it's also possible that she could
be
| descended from one of those children, although that would would
eliminate any
| descent from Pocahontas. If I'm not mistaken, and it's been a long
time since
| I looked into this, Gary Boyd Roberts' book on the ancestry of the
Presidents
| showed the first President Bush was a descendant of Col. Robert
Bolling (but
| not Pocahontas) in this way.
|
| The "Red Bollings" (sorry for the politically incorrect term, but
that's how
| they usually are or were known) are a unique and pretty
well-documented
| bunch. If you explore the subject you'll find that they intermarried
with
| some of the better known among the first families of Virginia (such as
the
| Blands and Randolphs) and do indeed have living descendants today.
Woodrow
| Wilson's second wife was a descendant of the "Red Bollings," as was
John
| Randolph of Roanoke.
|
| It might be worth noting, however, that a young Englishman named
Thomas Savage
| was sent to live with the Powhatan Indians in 1608 as a sort of
hostage and in
| order to learn the language and that he subsequently served as one of
the
| first interpreters between the English and the Powhatans.
|
| Finally, it's also possible that Annette Savage might have been
descended from
| a relative of Pocahontas rather than from Pocahontas herself.
|
| Jeff Duvall

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Duvall Question: Annette Savage And Pocahontas - Bonapa

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 21 sep 2004 17:37:51

This belongs very much right here in the newsgroup.

I like Robert Duvall and his father. How do you relate to him?

Further, is there a connection between the Duvalls and the Lees of
Virginia?

Robert Duvall was allegedly told by his mother that he was either
"descended from" or "related to" Robert E. Lee. But that does not
appear to be validated at all.

What do you want to say about the Bonapartes?

Cheers,

DSH

"""" <jeffery@iquest.net> wrote in message
news:1095795977.41508509e0e68@webmail.iquest.net...

| I tried to send this directly to DSH, but it didn't go through and as
I didn't want to appear rude, I'm posting my reply here:
|
|
| Quoting "D. Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com>:
|
| snip
|
| > Are you related to the Maryland Duvalls?
| >
| > Thanks.
| >
| > DSH
|
| Yes, I am doubly descended from the original "Mareen Duvall of Middle
| Plantation" (Anne Arundel Co., MD). Both my ggggg-grandparents Duvall
were
| descended from him (they were second cousins once-removed to be
precise). I
| probably also have a third descent from him through my paternal
grandmother,
| but I've not been able to document that to my satisfaction yet.
|
| Any particular reason why you wanted to know?
|
| Cheers,
|
| Jeff Duvall

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Duvall Question: Annette Savage And Pocahontas - Bonapar

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 21 sep 2004 19:09:53

Hmmmmmmm.

Bob Duvall is a prince among men and one of America's greatest actors.
His dad was no slouch either -- not as an actor.

I brought up the Bonapartes because you had them in your previous
subject line -- but said nothing about them.

If you were connected to the Lees of Virginia I should think you'd want
to know.

Aloha,

DSH

"""" <jeffery@iquest.net> wrote in message
news:1095803092.4150a0d4cc324@webmail.iquest.net...

| Hmmm,
|
| Well, without looking it up, I'm guessing my connection to Robert
Duvall is
| something along the lines of 5th or 6th cousin several times removed.
Which
| is part of the answer to your next question: Given the distant
relationhip to
| Robert Duvall (whose connection to my family I've only looked up after
growing
| tired of having relatives asking me over the years if we were related
| because "he looks so much like a Duvall"), I can't honestly say
whether or not
| he's related to the Lees of Virginia. If so, I'm fairly certain,
however, that
| it would not be through the Duvall family itself or through any of the
wives
| of the early generations. If you or he, or whomever, really wants to
pursue
| the issue, the best place to start is Harry Wright Newman's *Mareen
Duvall of
| Middle Plantation* (1952). As for the Bonapartes, I'm not sure I want
to say
| anything about them. I'm afraid I know nothing about Annette Savage
or her
| children, etc. Aside from an ancestor who fought for Napoleon on the
Russian
| Campaign (at 16) and at Waterloo (and always referred to in family
lore as
| his "boot boy" whatever that means), I've no connection to the
Bonapartes and
| have never really made any special effort to study them or the time
period in
| French history.
|
| Cheers,
|
| Jeff Duvall
|
|
| Quoting "D. Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com>:
|
| > This belongs very much right here in the newsgroup.
| >
| > I like Robert Duvall and his father. How do you relate to him?
| >
| > Further, is there a connection between the Duvalls and the Lees of
| > Virginia?
| >
| > Robert Duvall was allegedly told by his mother that he was either
| > "descended from" or "related to" Robert E. Lee. But that does not
| > appear to be validated at all.
| >
| > What do you want to say about the Bonapartes?
| >
| > Cheers,
| >
| > DSH

Gjest

Re: OT: Annette Savage and Pocahontas - Bonapartes

Legg inn av Gjest » 21 sep 2004 22:01:20

I wouldn't claim to be an expert on the subject, but my hunch is that this
should be fairly easy to determine, one way or the other. If Annette Savage
was indeed an actual direct descendant of Pocahontas it could only be through
Col. John Rolfe of Cobbs Hall (1676-1729) as he is the only known and or
documented great-grandchild of Pocahontas and John Rolfe, just as his mother,
Jane Rolfe (d. 1676) is their only known (and documented) grandchild. His
father, Col. Robert Bolling, however, also had a number of children by another
wife (or wives for all I know), so it's also possible that she could be
descended from one of those children, although that would would eliminate any
descent from Pocahontas. If I'm not mistaken, and it's been a long time since
I looked into this, Gary Boyd Roberts' book on the ancestry of the Presidents
showed the first President Bush was a descendant of Col. Robert Bolling (but
not Pocahontas) in this way.

The "Red Bollings" (sorry for the politically incorrect term, but that's how
they usually are or were known) are a unique and pretty well-documented
bunch. If you explore the subject you'll find that they intermarried with
some of the better known among the first families of Virginia (such as the
Blands and Randolphs) and do indeed have living descendants today. Woodrow
Wilson's second wife was a descendant of the "Red Bollings," as was John
Randolph of Roanoke.

It might be worth noting, however, that a young Englishman named Thomas Savage
was sent to live with the Powhatan Indians in 1608 as a sort of hostage and in
order to learn the language and that he subsequently served as one of the
first interpreters between the English and the Powhatans.

Finally, it's also possible that Annette Savage might have been descended from
a relative of Pocahontas rather than from Pocahontas herself.

Jeff Duvall

Gjest

Re: OT: re. Duvall question: Annette Savage And Pocahontas

Legg inn av Gjest » 21 sep 2004 23:46:20

I tried to send this directly to DSH, but it didn't go through and as I didn't
want to appear rude, I'm posting my reply here:


Quoting "D. Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com>:

snip

Are you related to the Maryland Duvalls?

Thanks.

DSH

Yes, I am doubly descended from the original "Mareen Duvall of Middle
Plantation" (Anne Arundel Co., MD). Both my ggggg-grandparents Duvall were
descended from him (they were second cousins once-removed to be precise). I
probably also have a third descent from him through my paternal grandmother,
but I've not been able to document that to my satisfaction yet.

Any particular reason why you wanted to know?

Cheers,

Jeff Duvall

Gjest

Re: OT Duvall Question

Legg inn av Gjest » 22 sep 2004 01:44:45

Hmmm,

Well, without looking it up, I'm guessing my connection to Robert Duvall is
something along the lines of 5th or 6th cousin several times removed. Which
is part of the answer to your next question: Given the distant relationhip to
Robert Duvall (whose connection to my family I've only looked up after growing
tired of having relatives asking me over the years if we were related
because "he looks so much like a Duvall"), I can't honestly say whether or not
he's related to the Lees of Virginia. If so, I'm fairly certain, however, that
it would not be through the Duvall family itself or through any of the wives
of the early generations. If you or he, or whomever, really wants to pursue
the issue, the best place to start is Harry Wright Newman's *Mareen Duvall of
Middle Plantation* (1952). As for the Bonapartes, I'm not sure I want to say
anything about them. I'm afraid I know nothing about Annette Savage or her
children, etc. Aside from an ancestor who fought for Napoleon on the Russian
Campaign (at 16) and at Waterloo (and always referred to in family lore as
his "boot boy" whatever that means), I've no connection to the Bonapartes and
have never really made any special effort to study them or the time period in
French history.

Cheers,

Jeff Duvall


Quoting "D. Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com>:

This belongs very much right here in the newsgroup.

I like Robert Duvall and his father. How do you relate to him?

Further, is there a connection between the Duvalls and the Lees of
Virginia?

Robert Duvall was allegedly told by his mother that he was either
"descended from" or "related to" Robert E. Lee. But that does not
appear to be validated at all.

What do you want to say about the Bonapartes?

Cheers,

DSH


Matthew Rockefeller

Re: OT: Annette Savage and Pocahontas - Bonapartes

Legg inn av Matthew Rockefeller » 22 sep 2004 01:52:45

Thank you for your input. It should make descendants of Pocahontas
easier to document if there is only one great-grandchild, so that's a
help. Maybe she was descended from Thomas Savage, I don't know, but
it's something to look into as well.

Matthew

Matthew Rockefeller

Re: Annette Savage and Pocahontas - Bonapartes

Legg inn av Matthew Rockefeller » 22 sep 2004 01:55:48

PDeloriol@aol.com wrote in message news:<d1.175d6fda.2e814d4f@aol.com>...
I'm unaware of this, but are you aware of the recently published book '
Betsy bonaparte', the belle of Baltimore , by my cousin Claude
Bourguignon-Frasseto, published by the Maryland Historical Society - that gives insight onto
their descendants including the Founder of the FBI, one of their grandchildren.

regards
Peter de Loriol

Thank you for telling me about the book. I had no idea. I'll put that
book on my to get book list.

Matthew

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Duvall Question

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 22 sep 2004 13:42:06

Good for you, Gordo.

Well Done.

DSH

"John Steele Gordon" <ancestry@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:N8e4d.536$6X1.1349618@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...

| Even more off topic, but I can't help noting that, like so many people
with
| substantial Maryland ancestry, I also descend from Mareen Duvall (so
does
| Harry Truman--twice I believe). He had several children and his son
John had
| a whole flock of them, so there are now millions of descendants.
|
| I have no connection to Napoleon, but I do have a South Carolina ggg
| grandfather, a Baptist minister, with a name straight out of P. G.
| Wodehouse: the Rev. Napoleon Bonaparte Screven (1801-1840). Just to
keep
| things fair and balanced, I have a ggg uncle, from Connecticut, named
| Horatio Nelson Lyman (1804--after 1871).
|
| JSG

John Steele Gordon

Re: OT: Annette Savage and Pocahontas - Bonapartes

Legg inn av John Steele Gordon » 22 sep 2004 14:11:47

There is a large book, first published in the 1880's and reissued with
corrections and much additional material in the 1980's and 1990's:

Brown, Stuart E. (Stuart Ellett), 1916-
Title Pocahontas' descendants : a revision, enlargement, and extension
of the list as set out by Wyndham Robertson in his book Pocahontas and her
descendants (1887) / by Stuart E. Brown, Jr., Lorraine F. Myers, and Eileen
M. Chappel.



It has a good reputation.

JSG

"Matthew Rockefeller" <matthew_rockefeller@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1623fca6.0409211552.64f0f1e5@posting.google.com...
Thank you for your input. It should make descendants of Pocahontas
easier to document if there is only one great-grandchild, so that's a
help. Maybe she was descended from Thomas Savage, I don't know, but
it's something to look into as well.

Matthew

John Steele Gordon

Re: OT Duvall Question

Legg inn av John Steele Gordon » 22 sep 2004 14:23:09

Even more off topic, but I can't help noting that, like so many people with
substantial Maryland ancestry, I also descend from Mareen Duvall (so does
Harry Truman--twice I believe). He had several children and his son John had
a whole flock of them, so there are now millions of descendants.

I have no connection to Napoleon, but I do have a South Carolina ggg
grandfather, a Baptist minister, with a name straight out of P. G.
Wodehouse: the Rev. Napoleon Bonaparte Screven (1801-1840). Just to keep
things fair and balanced, I have a ggg uncle, from Connecticut, named
Horatio Nelson Lyman (1804--after 1871).

JSG


"""" <jeffery@iquest.net> wrote in message
news:1095803092.4150a0d4cc324@webmail.iquest.net...
Hmmm,

Well, without looking it up, I'm guessing my connection to Robert Duvall
is
something along the lines of 5th or 6th cousin several times removed.
Which
is part of the answer to your next question: Given the distant
relationhip to
Robert Duvall (whose connection to my family I've only looked up after
growing
tired of having relatives asking me over the years if we were related
because "he looks so much like a Duvall"), I can't honestly say whether or
not
he's related to the Lees of Virginia. If so, I'm fairly certain, however,
that
it would not be through the Duvall family itself or through any of the
wives
of the early generations. If you or he, or whomever, really wants to
pursue
the issue, the best place to start is Harry Wright Newman's *Mareen Duvall
of
Middle Plantation* (1952). As for the Bonapartes, I'm not sure I want to
say
anything about them. I'm afraid I know nothing about Annette Savage or
her
children, etc. Aside from an ancestor who fought for Napoleon on the
Russian
Campaign (at 16) and at Waterloo (and always referred to in family lore as
his "boot boy" whatever that means), I've no connection to the Bonapartes
and
have never really made any special effort to study them or the time period
in
French history.

Cheers,

Jeff Duvall


Quoting "D. Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com>:

This belongs very much right here in the newsgroup.

I like Robert Duvall and his father. How do you relate to him?

Further, is there a connection between the Duvalls and the Lees of
Virginia?

Robert Duvall was allegedly told by his mother that he was either
"descended from" or "related to" Robert E. Lee. But that does not
appear to be validated at all.

What do you want to say about the Bonapartes?

Cheers,

DSH



Janet Ariciu

RE: Annette Savage And Pocahontas - Bonapartes

Legg inn av Janet Ariciu » 22 sep 2004 15:16:26

the reason for Red and white is because the Robert Bolling second marriage
did not want to link to Robert first marriage. His second family back then
did not want to link to Indian lines.

What makes it hard if Robert and Jane Rolf Bolling had son name John. Robert
and second wife had son name John too. You have look that birth date for
these two Johns.
I have friend who from Robert and Jane Rolf Bolling.

By the way the Red and white families to this day have still do get along.
Not all but some.

Janet

-----Original Message-----
From: D. Spencer Hines [mailto:poguemidden@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 8:22 AM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Annette Savage And Pocahontas - Bonapartes


Interesting post.

Yes -- "Red Bollings" and "White Bollings" and Political Correctness be
damned.

Are you related to the Maryland Duvalls?

Thanks.

DSH

"""" <jeffery@iquest.net> wrote in message
news:1095789681.41506c713beff@webmail.iquest.net...

| I wouldn't claim to be an expert on the subject, but my hunch is that
this
| should be fairly easy to determine, one way or the other. If Annette
Savage
| was indeed an actual direct descendant of Pocahontas it could only be
through
| Col. John Rolfe of Cobbs Hall (1676-1729) as he is the only known and
or
| documented great-grandchild of Pocahontas and John Rolfe, just as his
mother,
| Jane Rolfe (d. 1676) is their only known (and documented) grandchild.
His
| father, Col. Robert Bolling, however, also had a number of children by
another
| wife (or wives for all I know), so it's also possible that she could
be
| descended from one of those children, although that would would
eliminate any
| descent from Pocahontas. If I'm not mistaken, and it's been a long
time since
| I looked into this, Gary Boyd Roberts' book on the ancestry of the
Presidents
| showed the first President Bush was a descendant of Col. Robert
Bolling (but
| not Pocahontas) in this way.
|
| The "Red Bollings" (sorry for the politically incorrect term, but
that's how
| they usually are or were known) are a unique and pretty
well-documented
| bunch. If you explore the subject you'll find that they intermarried
with
| some of the better known among the first families of Virginia (such as
the
| Blands and Randolphs) and do indeed have living descendants today.
Woodrow
| Wilson's second wife was a descendant of the "Red Bollings," as was
John
| Randolph of Roanoke.
|
| It might be worth noting, however, that a young Englishman named
Thomas Savage
| was sent to live with the Powhatan Indians in 1608 as a sort of
hostage and in
| order to learn the language and that he subsequently served as one of
the
| first interpreters between the English and the Powhatans.
|
| Finally, it's also possible that Annette Savage might have been
descended from
| a relative of Pocahontas rather than from Pocahontas herself.
|
| Jeff Duvall

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