Crusader ancestors (again)

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Nathaniel Taylor

Crusader ancestors (again)

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 08 sep 2004 02:37:42

I just want to point out that I have posted a condensation of the thread
from this past January on the crusader ancestors of the current U.S.
president, on my website at:

http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltay ... ves/cr.htm

and at

http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltay ... r_list.htm

These form part of a series of (illustrated) short essays or
blogbits--some of which, relevant to medieval genealogy, have grown out
of discussions on this list--on my website at:

http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/

Nat Taylor

Gordon Banks

Re: Crusader ancestors (again)

Legg inn av Gordon Banks » 09 sep 2004 19:59:54

Very nice pages.

Where did the illustrations come from? Are they public domain?

Is the shield pictured for Hugh the Great accurate?

On Tue, 2004-09-07 at 17:37, Nathaniel Taylor wrote:
I just want to point out that I have posted a condensation of the thread
from this past January on the crusader ancestors of the current U.S.
president, on my website at:

http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltay ... ves/cr.htm

and at

http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltay ... r_list.htm

These form part of a series of (illustrated) short essays or
blogbits--some of which, relevant to medieval genealogy, have grown out
of discussions on this list--on my website at:

http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/

Nat Taylor

Robert

Re: Crusader ancestors (again)

Legg inn av Robert » 10 sep 2004 00:42:22

geb@gordonbanks.com (Gordon Banks) wrote
Is the shield pictured for Hugh the Great accurate?

If you look in Pere Anselme's Histoire Genealogique, 3rd Edition,
Volume 6, under Seneschals, page 36, For Raoul I, count of Vermandois,
son of Hugh the Great, count of Vermandois, you are given as arms:

Echiquete d'or & d'azur au chef d'azur charge de trois fleurs de lys
or.

(In Volume 1, page 531, Hugh himself appears assigned these arms.)

That's what is shown in that portrait of Hugh the Great.

Both carried these arms.

These arms are basically that of the elder Vermandois family, who are
given, per MM de Sainte Marthe (PA's 3rd ed. HG, Vol 1, pg. 533),
Chequy or and azure. (Same arms as the de Warren family btw. I'll
get to that.)

The younger son of the royal line, on getting the territory of another
family through marriage adapted the elder lines arms by adding a chief
with the royal fleur-de-lis.

Hugh the Great, son of Henry I of France, married Alix of Vermandois.
Her brother, Odo, insane, was found unfit to rule and disinherited.

Thus Hugh got a wife, got her territories, and differenced her arms
suitably given his royal connection.

The arms are more or less accurate for the family. For the time? For
a crusade where the knights were all pretty much wearing crosses? (I
think I read somewhere the crosses were colored by nationality.)

All in all, yes, accurate enough. If Hugh had arms, it was probably
that.

Now how did the Warren family get the Vermandois arms? William II de
Warenne, 2nd Earl of Surry, married Isabel, daughter of Hugh the Great
and Alix, heiress of Vermandois. Here the arms passed unchanged from
the original.

Isabel's sister Mathilda passed on the arms too, to her husband,
Raoul, seignure de Beaugency, who added a fess gules.

The original arms, held by the Warennes now, passed on to to Hamelin,
illegitimate half-brother of Henry II, who got the Earldom of Warenne
by marrying it's heiress.

Hope that's been a little help.

Robert

geb@gordonbanks.com (Gordon Banks) wrote in message news:<1094745614.20596.3.camel@localhost.localdomain>...
Very nice pages.

Where did the illustrations come from? Are they public domain?

Is the shield pictured for Hugh the Great accurate?

On Tue, 2004-09-07 at 17:37, Nathaniel Taylor wrote:
I just want to point out that I have posted a condensation of the thread
from this past January on the crusader ancestors of the current U.S.
president, on my website at:

http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltay ... ves/cr.htm

and at

http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltay ... r_list.htm

These form part of a series of (illustrated) short essays or
blogbits--some of which, relevant to medieval genealogy, have grown out
of discussions on this list--on my website at:

http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/

Nat Taylor

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