Portuguese error amongst ancestors of Gov. Thomas Dudley?

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Leo van de Pas

Portuguese error amongst ancestors of Gov. Thomas Dudley?

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 01 sep 2004 10:30:07

Someone sent me several impressive lineages from Geoffrey V of Anjou to the one person living today. However, looking at the first one I soon was not so impressed after all.

Shown is Philippa of Lancaster who, in 1387, married John I, King of Portugal, and their daughter (I know it's wrong) is displayed as

Pinto, Beatrix of Portugal Abt.1386 - 1447, married Sir Thomas Fettiplace.

In the first place, Beatrix is born before the marriage and, even if she was a legitimate daughter
of King John, she wouldn't marry a simple English knight.

I have seen this Beatrix recorded as Beatrix de Sousa and married to Sir Thomas Fettiplace who died about 1442/1446.

Does anyone know who the parents are of this Beatrix?
Many thanks
Leo

Chris Phillips

Re: Portuguese error amongst ancestors of Gov. Thomas Dudley

Legg inn av Chris Phillips » 01 sep 2004 12:14:27

Francisco Antonio Doria wrote:
Since a paper by Planché (correct me if needed here)
in the 19th century, she has been identified as a
Sousa de Arronches, and more precisely one of the many
bastard daughters of Dom Lopo de Sousa, Master of
Christ.

For those who are interested, Planché's paper is available at David Nash
Ford's Royal Berkshire History website:
http://www.berkshirehistory.com/article ... ument.html

Chris Phillips

Francisco Antonio Doria

Re: Portuguese error amongst ancestors of Gov. Thomas Dudley

Legg inn av Francisco Antonio Doria » 01 sep 2004 13:42:19

Since a paper by Planché (correct me if needed here)
in the 19th century, she has been identified as a
Sousa de Arronches, and more precisely one of the many
bastard daughters of Dom Lopo de Sousa, Master of
Christ.

Don Stone relayed to me a query by David Kelley; I
looked at Planché's paper and fully agreed with it
because of the heraldic evidence. Then Nat Taylor
raised the issue and was kind enough to send me
another copy of Planché's. He has a good summary at
his site.

Recently a friend looked it up in the ANTT in
Portugal; no evidence for Beatriz's legitimation
however - and so far.

fa

--- Leo van de Pas <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au>
escreveu:
Someone sent me several impressive lineages from
Geoffrey V of Anjou to the one person living today.
However, looking at the first one I soon was not so
impressed after all.

Shown is Philippa of Lancaster who, in 1387, married
John I, King of Portugal, and their daughter (I know
it's wrong) is displayed as

Pinto, Beatrix of Portugal Abt.1386 - 1447, married
Sir Thomas Fettiplace.

In the first place, Beatrix is born before the
marriage and, even if she was a legitimate daughter
of King John, she wouldn't marry a simple English
knight.

I have seen this Beatrix recorded as Beatrix de
Sousa and married to Sir Thomas Fettiplace who died
about 1442/1446.

Does anyone know who the parents are of this
Beatrix?
Many thanks
Leo







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Nathaniel Taylor

Re: Portuguese error amongst ancestors of Gov. Thomas Dudley

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 01 sep 2004 14:16:48

In article <ch47ht$vv0$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk>,
"Chris Phillips" <cgp@medievalgenealogy.org.uk> wrote:

Francisco Antonio Doria wrote:
Since a paper by Planché (correct me if needed here)
in the 19th century, she has been identified as a
Sousa de Arronches, and more precisely one of the many
bastard daughters of Dom Lopo de Sousa, Master of
Christ.

For those who are interested, Planché's paper is available at David Nash
Ford's Royal Berkshire History website:
http://www.berkshirehistory.com/article ... ument.html

Good! I also have a little summary of the (still open) question on my
site at:

http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltay ... iplace.pdf

Nat Taylor

http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/

Nathaniel Taylor

Re: Portuguese error amongst ancestors of Gov. Thomas Dudley

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 01 sep 2004 14:55:32

In article <20040901094212.8877.qmail@web41704.mail.yahoo.com>,
franciscoantoniodoria@yahoo.com.br (Francisco Antonio Doria) wrote:

Since a paper by Planché (correct me if needed here)
in the 19th century, she has been identified as a
Sousa de Arronches, and more precisely one of the many
bastard daughters of Dom Lopo de Sousa, Master of
Christ.

Don Stone relayed to me a query by David Kelley; I
looked at Planché's paper and fully agreed with it
because of the heraldic evidence. Then Nat Taylor
raised the issue and was kind enough to send me
another copy of Planché's. He has a good summary at
his site.

Recently a friend looked it up in the ANTT in
Portugal; no evidence for Beatriz's legitimation
however - and so far.

I should just clarify (in gentle difference with Chico) that, since
Planché had suggested that she was a cousin, not daughter of Dom Lopo,
the Master of the Order of Christ, and since she is nowhere directly
identified as his daughter, I would conclude only that she surely fits
in this family from the heraldic evidence, but her filiation remains
uncertain. There are listings of known bastards of this Dom Lopo, but
she is not among them. No one has run to earth the source of Planché's
correspondent's placement of her as a cousin of this Dom Lopo.

Nat Taylor

http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/

Francisco Antonio Doria

Re: Portuguese error amongst ancestors of Gov. Thomas Dudley

Legg inn av Francisco Antonio Doria » 02 sep 2004 03:26:30

Just looked at the coats of arms in the site you give
- no doubt she was a Sousa de Arronches.

fa

--- Nathaniel Taylor <nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net>
escreveu:
In article <ch47ht$vv0$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk>,
"Chris Phillips" <cgp@medievalgenealogy.org.uk
wrote:

Francisco Antonio Doria wrote:
Since a paper by Planché (correct me if needed
here)
in the 19th century, she has been identified as
a
Sousa de Arronches, and more precisely one of
the many
bastard daughters of Dom Lopo de Sousa, Master
of
Christ.

For those who are interested, Planché's paper is
available at David Nash
Ford's Royal Berkshire History website:


http://www.berkshirehistory.com/article ... ument.html

Good! I also have a little summary of the (still
open) question on my
site at:


http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltay ... iplace.pdf

Nat Taylor

http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/







_______________________________________________________
Yahoo! Acesso Grátis - navegue de graça com conexão de qualidade!
http://br.acesso.yahoo.com/

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