Thomas de Thweng (d. 1374) and the Constables of Flamborough
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Gjest
Thomas de Thweng (d. 1374) and the Constables of Flamborough
Monday, 30 August, 2004
Hello All,
In EYC, the chapter entitled 'The Family of Constable of
Flamborough' provides the following concerning Sir Marmaduke Constable
(d. 1 June 1378) and a possible connection between that family and the
family of the Lords Thweng:
' It is not unlikely that his name of Marmaduke was due to a
connexion with the family of Thweng, who may have derived it
from the family of Darel..... Certainly there was a
connexion beetween the Thwengs and the Constables. In 1312
Robert de Thweng was instituted to the church of Holme upon
Spalding Moor on the presentation of Sir William Constable
of Flamborough <1>; in 1348 a chantry in Kirkleatham was
founded by Thomas de Thweng, the rector and patron of the
church, for the souls of many relatives including Robert,
William, Marmaduke and Katherine Constable <2>, and a
William de Thweng received a legacy in the will of Sir
Marmaduke in 1377 (as above). It is possible that Katherine,
Sir Marmaduke's mother, was a Thweng, but of this there is
no corroborative evidence. ' [1]
It is certain that there was no marital connection between the
Constables of Flamborough and a sister of Thomas, Lord Thweng as his
coheirs are well-known and did not include such a connection [2].
What does seem like a strong possibility, given the above connections,
the known chronology of the families, and Thomas de Thweng's
identification of these members of the Constable family as relations,
is the following:
[NOTE: the chart below is conjectural only. Individuals named
in the gift of Thomas de Thweng to Kirkleatham in 1348 are
CAPITALIZED]
MARMADUKE de Thweng = LUCY de Brus
d. before 1285 I
____________________________________I_ _
I I I I
Robert MARMADUKE <other Alicia = Sir William le
d. bef 26 Feb 1322 siblings> b.ca. 1268 I Constable
1st Lord Thweng I
= 1273 ISABEL de Ros I d.aft Apr 1319
_________I_______________________ ________I________
I I I I I I I
MARMADUKE I I THOMAS <other Sir ROBERT Alice
________I I the donor siblings> le Constable fl. 1303
I I [3] d. aft 8 Dec
WILLIAM I 1336 = Katherine
2nd Lord Thweng I ______________I___________
_____________I I I I
I Sir WILLIAM Sir MARMADUKE KATHERINE
ROBERT fl. 1329 d. 1 June 1378 fl. 1347-8
3rd Lord Thweng (evidently dvp)
There was a daughter Alicia de Thweng, as noted above: the
indication of her being the link to the Constable family is
conjectural, based on the chronology and the known existence of a
daughter of Sir William le Constable named Alice [4]. There were
other daughters in this generation (Hillaria and Matilda, evidently
older than Alice: and Joan and Margery, evidently younger], so there
are other possible spouses of Sir William le Constable in this
generation if in fact Alicia was not the mother of Sir Robert le
Constable.
The above reconstruction would provide several answers, not only
to the relationship between Thomas de Thweng and the Constable family
members named in his gift to Kirkleatham, but also as to the source
of the name Marmaduke, to be found thereafter in the Constable (of
Flamborough) family.
Further advance in resolving this issue can likely be found in the
full text of the gift of Thomas de Thweng to Kirkleatham in 1348,
noted below (and in CP) as being located at Cal. Patent Rolls,
1358-61, pp. 287-88. If any kind soul in the list should have access
to same, and could provide the details (preferably the full text re:
the relatives named), it would be greatly appreciated.
Good luck and good hunting to all.
Cheers,
John *
NOTES
[1] EYC XII:150-1. The text of the notes from EYC:
' <1> See the Holme section in Chapter III.
<2> Cal. Pat. Rolls, 1368-61, p. 287. Thomas de Thweng
had inherited the family lands as heir male (Complete
Peerage, ut sup., p. 743). '
[2] CP XII/1:743-4.
[3] CP XII/1:743, note (d) concerning Cal. Patent Rolls, 1358-61,
pp. 287-88:
' The 12 priests of the chantry were to pray inter alios for
the souls of Robert de Thweng and Maud his wife, Marmaduke
de Thweng and Lucy his wife, Marmaduke de Thweng and Isabel
his wife, Marmaduke, William, Robert, John and Nicholas,
brothers of Thomas, Marmaduke de Lumley (son of Lucy,
Thomas' sister), Robert de Hilton and Margaret his wife
(sister of Thomas), and Ralph Daubeney and Catherine his
wife (sister of Thomas). Numerous other relations of Thomas
are named. '
[4] EYC XII:149.
* John P. Ravilious
Hello All,
In EYC, the chapter entitled 'The Family of Constable of
Flamborough' provides the following concerning Sir Marmaduke Constable
(d. 1 June 1378) and a possible connection between that family and the
family of the Lords Thweng:
' It is not unlikely that his name of Marmaduke was due to a
connexion with the family of Thweng, who may have derived it
from the family of Darel..... Certainly there was a
connexion beetween the Thwengs and the Constables. In 1312
Robert de Thweng was instituted to the church of Holme upon
Spalding Moor on the presentation of Sir William Constable
of Flamborough <1>; in 1348 a chantry in Kirkleatham was
founded by Thomas de Thweng, the rector and patron of the
church, for the souls of many relatives including Robert,
William, Marmaduke and Katherine Constable <2>, and a
William de Thweng received a legacy in the will of Sir
Marmaduke in 1377 (as above). It is possible that Katherine,
Sir Marmaduke's mother, was a Thweng, but of this there is
no corroborative evidence. ' [1]
It is certain that there was no marital connection between the
Constables of Flamborough and a sister of Thomas, Lord Thweng as his
coheirs are well-known and did not include such a connection [2].
What does seem like a strong possibility, given the above connections,
the known chronology of the families, and Thomas de Thweng's
identification of these members of the Constable family as relations,
is the following:
[NOTE: the chart below is conjectural only. Individuals named
in the gift of Thomas de Thweng to Kirkleatham in 1348 are
CAPITALIZED]
MARMADUKE de Thweng = LUCY de Brus
d. before 1285 I
____________________________________I_ _
I I I I
Robert MARMADUKE <other Alicia = Sir William le
d. bef 26 Feb 1322 siblings> b.ca. 1268 I Constable
1st Lord Thweng I
= 1273 ISABEL de Ros I d.aft Apr 1319
_________I_______________________ ________I________
I I I I I I I
MARMADUKE I I THOMAS <other Sir ROBERT Alice
________I I the donor siblings> le Constable fl. 1303
I I [3] d. aft 8 Dec
WILLIAM I 1336 = Katherine
2nd Lord Thweng I ______________I___________
_____________I I I I
I Sir WILLIAM Sir MARMADUKE KATHERINE
ROBERT fl. 1329 d. 1 June 1378 fl. 1347-8
3rd Lord Thweng (evidently dvp)
There was a daughter Alicia de Thweng, as noted above: the
indication of her being the link to the Constable family is
conjectural, based on the chronology and the known existence of a
daughter of Sir William le Constable named Alice [4]. There were
other daughters in this generation (Hillaria and Matilda, evidently
older than Alice: and Joan and Margery, evidently younger], so there
are other possible spouses of Sir William le Constable in this
generation if in fact Alicia was not the mother of Sir Robert le
Constable.
The above reconstruction would provide several answers, not only
to the relationship between Thomas de Thweng and the Constable family
members named in his gift to Kirkleatham, but also as to the source
of the name Marmaduke, to be found thereafter in the Constable (of
Flamborough) family.
Further advance in resolving this issue can likely be found in the
full text of the gift of Thomas de Thweng to Kirkleatham in 1348,
noted below (and in CP) as being located at Cal. Patent Rolls,
1358-61, pp. 287-88. If any kind soul in the list should have access
to same, and could provide the details (preferably the full text re:
the relatives named), it would be greatly appreciated.
Good luck and good hunting to all.
Cheers,
John *
NOTES
[1] EYC XII:150-1. The text of the notes from EYC:
' <1> See the Holme section in Chapter III.
<2> Cal. Pat. Rolls, 1368-61, p. 287. Thomas de Thweng
had inherited the family lands as heir male (Complete
Peerage, ut sup., p. 743). '
[2] CP XII/1:743-4.
[3] CP XII/1:743, note (d) concerning Cal. Patent Rolls, 1358-61,
pp. 287-88:
' The 12 priests of the chantry were to pray inter alios for
the souls of Robert de Thweng and Maud his wife, Marmaduke
de Thweng and Lucy his wife, Marmaduke de Thweng and Isabel
his wife, Marmaduke, William, Robert, John and Nicholas,
brothers of Thomas, Marmaduke de Lumley (son of Lucy,
Thomas' sister), Robert de Hilton and Margaret his wife
(sister of Thomas), and Ralph Daubeney and Catherine his
wife (sister of Thomas). Numerous other relations of Thomas
are named. '
[4] EYC XII:149.
* John P. Ravilious
-
Gjest
Re: Thomas de Thweng (d. 1374) and the Constables of Flambor
Tuesday, 31 August, 2004
Dear Ronald,
Sir William Constable (d. 1319 or later) is not given any children in
EYC XII:148-9 other than Robert and Alice, already mentioned. If anyone in the
list has further information concerning another sibling, I'm certain we'll
here of it.
The text in EYC (cited in my first post) gives Thomas de
Thweng naming amongst his relatives ' Robert, William,
Marmaduke and Katherine Constable '. Based on the face of
what is given in EYC, and in CP (XII/1:743, note (d) ), the
order given in the text represents seniority in the family
[it starts with his great-grandparents Robert de Thweng and
Maud de Kilton, working its way down], and nearness of kin
to Thomas. This would correspond exactly to what I've shown
re: Sir Robert Constable of Flamborough, his two known sons
(William who dsp and Marmaduke) and his known daughter
Katherine. If Robert and Katherine's names are separated as
cited in the Patent Roll document, this Katherine was
definitely the daughter and not the wife of Robert, and
certainly not the closest relation to Thomas de Thweng in
this group (i.e., Katherine was not a Thweng) [1].
Cheers,
John
NOTES
[1] There are individuals named in the Patent Roll text who
were related to Thomas de Thweng only by marriage, but
only those of two brothers-in-law - Robert de Hilton
and Ralph Daubeney - and no sisters-in-law (of which
he did have one: Catherine de Furnival, widow of
his brother William de Thweng).
Dear Ronald,
Sir William Constable (d. 1319 or later) is not given any children in
EYC XII:148-9 other than Robert and Alice, already mentioned. If anyone in the
list has further information concerning another sibling, I'm certain we'll
here of it.
The text in EYC (cited in my first post) gives Thomas de
Thweng naming amongst his relatives ' Robert, William,
Marmaduke and Katherine Constable '. Based on the face of
what is given in EYC, and in CP (XII/1:743, note (d) ), the
order given in the text represents seniority in the family
[it starts with his great-grandparents Robert de Thweng and
Maud de Kilton, working its way down], and nearness of kin
to Thomas. This would correspond exactly to what I've shown
re: Sir Robert Constable of Flamborough, his two known sons
(William who dsp and Marmaduke) and his known daughter
Katherine. If Robert and Katherine's names are separated as
cited in the Patent Roll document, this Katherine was
definitely the daughter and not the wife of Robert, and
certainly not the closest relation to Thomas de Thweng in
this group (i.e., Katherine was not a Thweng) [1].
Cheers,
John
NOTES
[1] There are individuals named in the Patent Roll text who
were related to Thomas de Thweng only by marriage, but
only those of two brothers-in-law - Robert de Hilton
and Ralph Daubeney - and no sisters-in-law (of which
he did have one: Catherine de Furnival, widow of
his brother William de Thweng).
-
Ronald Di Iorio
Re: Thomas de Thweng (d. 1374) and the Constables of Flambor
Greetings
Was Sir Robert Constable who married Katherine the
only son of Sir William le Constable (d. aft 1319)who
allegedly married a Thwenge daughter? In other words,
was the next generation (sons of Robert) the first
opportunity for the name "Marmaduke", the name derived
from the maternal line, to be given to a son as a
prenom other than that of the paternal grandfather?
Ron
__________________________________________________
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Was Sir Robert Constable who married Katherine the
only son of Sir William le Constable (d. aft 1319)who
allegedly married a Thwenge daughter? In other words,
was the next generation (sons of Robert) the first
opportunity for the name "Marmaduke", the name derived
from the maternal line, to be given to a son as a
prenom other than that of the paternal grandfather?
Ron
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
-
Gjest
Re: Thomas de Thweng (d. 1374) and the Constables of Flambor
Hi Everyone:
Does anyone in the group know if there is a connection between Robert de
Hylton and his wife, Margaret de Thweng and Maud de Hilton who married John
Constable (d. after September 1, 1419). Was she possibly the great-great
granddaughter of this couple?
Also, is there a connection between Maud Hotham, wife of Edmund
Fitzwilliam, (d. February 5, 1429/1430) and John de Hotham of Scarborough and his
wife, Maud de Hylton? I have Maud's parents as Sir John Hotham and his wife,
Margaret Inglebert.
Thanks in advance for your help.
Joan Burdyck
In a message dated 9/20/2004 10:38:39 PM Eastern Standard Time,
Therav3@aol.com writes:
Robert de Hylton, Sir Robert de Hilton, knt., of Swine and Winestead
Margaret, his wife, in Holderness, co. Yorks. (d. ca. 1351) and his
and their heirs, wife Margaret de Thweng, sister of Thomas:
their heirs were their daughters Isabel (wife
of Walter de Pedwardene) and Maud (wife of
John de Hotham of Scarborough)
cf. CP VII:448, XII/1:743
Does anyone in the group know if there is a connection between Robert de
Hylton and his wife, Margaret de Thweng and Maud de Hilton who married John
Constable (d. after September 1, 1419). Was she possibly the great-great
granddaughter of this couple?
Also, is there a connection between Maud Hotham, wife of Edmund
Fitzwilliam, (d. February 5, 1429/1430) and John de Hotham of Scarborough and his
wife, Maud de Hylton? I have Maud's parents as Sir John Hotham and his wife,
Margaret Inglebert.
Thanks in advance for your help.
Joan Burdyck
In a message dated 9/20/2004 10:38:39 PM Eastern Standard Time,
Therav3@aol.com writes:
Robert de Hylton, Sir Robert de Hilton, knt., of Swine and Winestead
Margaret, his wife, in Holderness, co. Yorks. (d. ca. 1351) and his
and their heirs, wife Margaret de Thweng, sister of Thomas:
their heirs were their daughters Isabel (wife
of Walter de Pedwardene) and Maud (wife of
John de Hotham of Scarborough)
cf. CP VII:448, XII/1:743
-
Gjest
Re: Thomas de Thweng (d. 1374) and the Constables of Flambor
Monday, 27 September, 2004
Dear Joan,
I'm not sure about your 2nd question, but as to the first,
here's a chart showing the connection between Robert de
Hylton/Hilton and Maud de Hilton:
Sir Robert de Hilton = 1) NN de Greystoke = 2) Margaret de
of Swine & Winestead I [dau. of Robert I Thweng
d. ca. 1351 I fitz Ralph] I
__________________I ________________I___
I I I
Sir Robert de Hilton Isabel = Walter Maud = John de
d. bef 1364 de Pedwardene I Hotham
m. Maud de Campaign I
____I__________________________________ V
I I I
Robert Hilton, Esq. William Maud = John
d. aft 28 Jan 1408/09 I Constable of
m. Constance Mauley I Halsham
I I
V V
As can be seen from the above chart, Maud (Hilton) Constable
was a niece (of the half-blood) to Maud (de Hilton) de Hotham.
Hope this is helpful.
John
Dear Joan,
I'm not sure about your 2nd question, but as to the first,
here's a chart showing the connection between Robert de
Hylton/Hilton and Maud de Hilton:
Sir Robert de Hilton = 1) NN de Greystoke = 2) Margaret de
of Swine & Winestead I [dau. of Robert I Thweng
d. ca. 1351 I fitz Ralph] I
__________________I ________________I___
I I I
Sir Robert de Hilton Isabel = Walter Maud = John de
d. bef 1364 de Pedwardene I Hotham
m. Maud de Campaign I
____I__________________________________ V
I I I
Robert Hilton, Esq. William Maud = John
d. aft 28 Jan 1408/09 I Constable of
m. Constance Mauley I Halsham
I I
V V
As can be seen from the above chart, Maud (Hilton) Constable
was a niece (of the half-blood) to Maud (de Hilton) de Hotham.
Hope this is helpful.
John
-
David Hepworth
Re: Thomas de Thweng (d. 1374) and the Constables of Flambor
Dear Everyone
I treated myself to DNB Online and am posting their information on the
early Thweng family, which includes the marriage into the Constables -
it needs the background research doing, but I think it answers the
questions about marriage between the two. I will also go through my
early material, since my original work on the Thweng family was Sir
Robert III alias William Wither.
Cheers
David
Thwing [Thweng] family (per. 1166-c.1234), gentry
by John Walker
© Oxford University Press 2004 All rights reserved
Thwing [Thweng] family (per. 1166-c.1234), gentry, held land in
Yorkshire, Lincolnshire, and Northumberland, from at least 1166. The
family is first represented in the historical record by Robert (I) of
Thwing (d. in or before 1166). He was succeeded by his son Robert (II)
of Thwing (d. 1172x99), referred to as Robert son of Robert of Tegneg
in a charter of Henry II's reign. In 1166 he was recorded as holding a
knight's fee in Legsby, Holtham, and Ludford, Lincolnshire, from
William de Percy, and, it is assumed, Thwing in the East Riding of
Yorkshire from Adam de Brus. Through Robert (II)'s marriage to Emma,
one of the sisters and coheirs of Duncan Darel, the Thwings received
part of the east Yorkshire estate of Lund, which in 1203 comprised a
third share in four carucates in the village. The Thwings held their
Lund estate from the bishop of Durham and this together with heraldic
similarities to the arms of the fitz Marmadukes, barons of Hordern in
Durham, have led to suggestions that the family originated from that
county. Robert was a patron of the Lincolnshire priory of Sixhills, to
which he gave the town and church of Legsby. He was living in 1172,
when he witnessed a charter to Rievaulx Abbey, but had presumably died
and been succeeded by his son Marmaduke (I) of Thwing (d. in or after
1234) by 1199 when Marmaduke was acting as a surety for Richard de
Malebisse.
Marmaduke was imprisoned for homicide in 1204, although the exact
details of the crime are unclear. In the same year Marmaduke paid
100s. to be placed in the custody of twelve lawful men and his
sureties, including Peter de Brus, paid a fine of 40 marks and pledged
themselves to prevent him from causing further disorder. Marmaduke was
evidently released shortly afterwards and he served as a juror in
1208. He joined the baronial opposition to the crown during the civil
war after 1215, but in 1217 he made peace with the minority government
of Henry III and thereafter he appears to have been active as a royal
official in northern England. In 1218 he was part of a commission that
investigated the bishop of Durham's complaint concerning obstructions
across the River Tyne; in 1226 he was involved in inspecting the
condition of Scarborough and Pickering castles; and in 1230 he was
ordered with other officials to take oaths from anyone who had been
sworn to arms at the end of King John's reign. In addition to these
specific functions he served as an assize justice during the years
1221–9 and as a coroner until August 1230, when he was replaced on
account of his infirmity. The influence of the Thwings in the East
Riding at this time was indicated by the marriage before 1227 of
Marmaduke's daughter Cecily to William the Constable, the son of
Robert the Constable of Holderness. In 1227 he came to an agreement
with William concerning a bovate of land in demesne and the service of
six carucates in Kilham in the East Riding, which Marmaduke had given
to William as marriage settlement with his daughter. The date of
Marmaduke's death is not known but the last reference to him is in
November 1234 when he was party to a final concord. He was succeeded
by his son Robert (III) of Thwing (d. 1245x57), who was an opponent of
papal provisions in England, then by Robert's son Marmaduke (II)
Thwing (d. 1282x4). The arms of the Thwing family, first recorded in
1227, are given as argent, a fesse gules between three popinjays vert.
JOHN WALKER
Sources GEC, Peerage, new edn, 12/1 • W. Brown, ed., Cartularium
prioratus de Gyseburne, 2, SurtS, 89 (1894) • W. M. I'Anson, ‘Kilton
Castle', Yorkshire Archaeological Journal, 22 (1913) • W. Farrer and
others, eds., Early Yorkshire charters, 12 vols. (1914–65), vol. 2
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
© Oxford University Press 2004 All rights reserved
John Walker, ‘Thwing family (per. 1166-c.1234)', Oxford Dictionary of
National Biography, Oxford University Press, 2004 [accessed 1 Oct
2004: http://www.oxforddnb.com/view/article/54514]
Thwing [Thweng], Sir Robert (III) of [alias William Wither] (d.
1245x57), knight
by Nicholas Vincent
© Oxford University Press 2004 All rights reserved
Thwing [Thweng], Sir Robert (III) of [alias William Wither] (d.
1245x57), knight, was the son of Marmaduke (I) of Thwing (d. in or
after 1234) [see under Thwing family]. Robert makes his first
appearance in 1229, suing Richard de Percy (fl. 1181–1244) for customs
and services in Kilton and Kirkleatham, land that he had acquired by
his marriage to Mathilda, widow of Richard de Autrey and niece and
heir of William of Kilton. In 1231 he became conspicuous for his
opposition to the Roman and Italian clergy who had received papal
provision to churches in England. With the assistance of the
archbishop of York, an Italian had been intruded to the church of
Kirkleatham, the advowson of which Robert and his wife had recovered
in 1230 following litigation against the prior of Guisborough. Robert
adopted the alias William Wither, literally ‘William the Angry'; he
placed himself at the head of an armed agitation against the
foreigners and about Easter 1232 pillaged their corn and barns and
distributed the spoils among the poor. In response to complaints from
the pope Henry III ordered the arrest of various leading courtiers who
were implicated in these disturbances, including Hubert de Burgh (d.
1243), the chief justiciar, who is said to have lent tacit support to
the ‘Withermen' out of anger at a papal inquiry into the legality of
his marriage. Thwing is later to be found witnessing a charter of
Hubert's son, John de Burgh, but in 1232 there is nothing to suggest
that Hubert and Thwing were in any way close associates. Thwing
himself was sent by the king for absolution in Rome. In 1239 he made a
second visit to Rome, carrying with him a general letter of complaint
from the English barons. Perhaps through the influence of Richard,
earl of Cornwall, to whose household Thwing had attached himself, he
obtained letters from Pope Gregory IX (r. 1227–41) protecting the
rights of lay patrons against papal provision. Early in the following
year Thwing set out with Earl Richard on crusade. In September 1240,
from Marseilles, he was sent as an envoy to the emperor, Frederick II
(r. 1212–50), with information about the pope's attempts to delay the
crusade. As a result, he may never have reached the Holy Land. In 1244
he was accused of making a violent attack upon a clerk of the
archbishop of York in the king's hall at Windsor. His lands were
seized, but restored the following year. The date of his death is
unknown, but he was probably dead by 1257 when his eldest son and
heir, Marmaduke (II) of Thwing, had control of the chief family
estates.
Confusion arises between Sir Robert of Thwing and at least two other
namesakes: his grandson, also named Robert, who was still a minor in
1266, and another Robert, perhaps an illegitimate son of Sir Robert,
who married a woman named Hugolina, participated in negotiations with
the Scots, and from 1262 was employed as a knight of the royal
household. Marmaduke (II) of Thwing (d. 1282×4), son and heir of Sir
Robert, had by 1242 married Lucy, sister of Peter de Brus and heir to
part of the barony of Skelton, with whom he had several sons. Robert,
the eldest of these, died without male children before 1283 and was
succeeded in the Thwing estates by his brother Marmaduke, who was
prominent in the Scottish wars of the reign of Edward I. Marmaduke
(III) of Thwing [Thweng], first Baron Thwing (d. 1323), played a
leading role at the battle of Stirling in 1297, but in 1299 was taken
prisoner and ransomed by the Scots. By writ of summons issued in 1307
he is considered to have become the first Baron Thwing or Thweng. In
1312 he joined Thomas, earl of Lancaster, in the attack upon Piers
Gaveston, and in 1321, at the time of Lancaster's great rebellion, his
loyalties were the subject of suspicion by the crown. He died in 1323
and was succeeded in the barony by his three sons—William, Robert, and
Thomas—all of whom died childless. On the death of Thomas in 1374 the
barony fell into abeyance, and the Thwing estates were partitioned
among various of Thomas's sisters and nieces. St John of Bridlington
(c.1320-1379), sometimes called John Twenge or Thwing, author of
caustic, prophetic verses against the government of Edward III, may
have sprung from the same family.
NICHOLAS VINCENT
Sources Chancery records • Paris, Chron. • N. Vincent, Peter des
Roches: an alien in English politics, 1205–38, Cambridge Studies in
Medieval Life and Thought, 4th ser., 31 (1996) • GEC, Peerage • W.
Farrer and others, eds., Early Yorkshire charters, 12 vols. (1914–65),
vols. 2, 9 • W. Brown, ed., Cartularium prioratus de Gyseburne, 2
vols., SurtS, 86, 89 (1889–94) • A. H. Thompson, ed., Northumberland
pleas from the curia regis and assize rolls, 1198–1272, Newcastle upon
Tyne Records Committee Publications, 2 (1922) • I. J. Sanders, English
baronies: a study of their origin and descent, 1086–1327 (1960) •
Warter cartulary, Bodl. Oxf., MS Fairfax 9, fols. 42r–43v
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
© Oxford University Press 2004 All rights reserved
Nicholas Vincent, ‘Thwing , Sir Robert (III) of (d. 1245x57)', Oxford
Dictionary of National Biography, Oxford University Press, 2004
[accessed 1 Oct 2004: http://www.oxforddnb.com/view/article/27418]
I treated myself to DNB Online and am posting their information on the
early Thweng family, which includes the marriage into the Constables -
it needs the background research doing, but I think it answers the
questions about marriage between the two. I will also go through my
early material, since my original work on the Thweng family was Sir
Robert III alias William Wither.
Cheers
David
Thwing [Thweng] family (per. 1166-c.1234), gentry
by John Walker
© Oxford University Press 2004 All rights reserved
Thwing [Thweng] family (per. 1166-c.1234), gentry, held land in
Yorkshire, Lincolnshire, and Northumberland, from at least 1166. The
family is first represented in the historical record by Robert (I) of
Thwing (d. in or before 1166). He was succeeded by his son Robert (II)
of Thwing (d. 1172x99), referred to as Robert son of Robert of Tegneg
in a charter of Henry II's reign. In 1166 he was recorded as holding a
knight's fee in Legsby, Holtham, and Ludford, Lincolnshire, from
William de Percy, and, it is assumed, Thwing in the East Riding of
Yorkshire from Adam de Brus. Through Robert (II)'s marriage to Emma,
one of the sisters and coheirs of Duncan Darel, the Thwings received
part of the east Yorkshire estate of Lund, which in 1203 comprised a
third share in four carucates in the village. The Thwings held their
Lund estate from the bishop of Durham and this together with heraldic
similarities to the arms of the fitz Marmadukes, barons of Hordern in
Durham, have led to suggestions that the family originated from that
county. Robert was a patron of the Lincolnshire priory of Sixhills, to
which he gave the town and church of Legsby. He was living in 1172,
when he witnessed a charter to Rievaulx Abbey, but had presumably died
and been succeeded by his son Marmaduke (I) of Thwing (d. in or after
1234) by 1199 when Marmaduke was acting as a surety for Richard de
Malebisse.
Marmaduke was imprisoned for homicide in 1204, although the exact
details of the crime are unclear. In the same year Marmaduke paid
100s. to be placed in the custody of twelve lawful men and his
sureties, including Peter de Brus, paid a fine of 40 marks and pledged
themselves to prevent him from causing further disorder. Marmaduke was
evidently released shortly afterwards and he served as a juror in
1208. He joined the baronial opposition to the crown during the civil
war after 1215, but in 1217 he made peace with the minority government
of Henry III and thereafter he appears to have been active as a royal
official in northern England. In 1218 he was part of a commission that
investigated the bishop of Durham's complaint concerning obstructions
across the River Tyne; in 1226 he was involved in inspecting the
condition of Scarborough and Pickering castles; and in 1230 he was
ordered with other officials to take oaths from anyone who had been
sworn to arms at the end of King John's reign. In addition to these
specific functions he served as an assize justice during the years
1221–9 and as a coroner until August 1230, when he was replaced on
account of his infirmity. The influence of the Thwings in the East
Riding at this time was indicated by the marriage before 1227 of
Marmaduke's daughter Cecily to William the Constable, the son of
Robert the Constable of Holderness. In 1227 he came to an agreement
with William concerning a bovate of land in demesne and the service of
six carucates in Kilham in the East Riding, which Marmaduke had given
to William as marriage settlement with his daughter. The date of
Marmaduke's death is not known but the last reference to him is in
November 1234 when he was party to a final concord. He was succeeded
by his son Robert (III) of Thwing (d. 1245x57), who was an opponent of
papal provisions in England, then by Robert's son Marmaduke (II)
Thwing (d. 1282x4). The arms of the Thwing family, first recorded in
1227, are given as argent, a fesse gules between three popinjays vert.
JOHN WALKER
Sources GEC, Peerage, new edn, 12/1 • W. Brown, ed., Cartularium
prioratus de Gyseburne, 2, SurtS, 89 (1894) • W. M. I'Anson, ‘Kilton
Castle', Yorkshire Archaeological Journal, 22 (1913) • W. Farrer and
others, eds., Early Yorkshire charters, 12 vols. (1914–65), vol. 2
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
© Oxford University Press 2004 All rights reserved
John Walker, ‘Thwing family (per. 1166-c.1234)', Oxford Dictionary of
National Biography, Oxford University Press, 2004 [accessed 1 Oct
2004: http://www.oxforddnb.com/view/article/54514]
Thwing [Thweng], Sir Robert (III) of [alias William Wither] (d.
1245x57), knight
by Nicholas Vincent
© Oxford University Press 2004 All rights reserved
Thwing [Thweng], Sir Robert (III) of [alias William Wither] (d.
1245x57), knight, was the son of Marmaduke (I) of Thwing (d. in or
after 1234) [see under Thwing family]. Robert makes his first
appearance in 1229, suing Richard de Percy (fl. 1181–1244) for customs
and services in Kilton and Kirkleatham, land that he had acquired by
his marriage to Mathilda, widow of Richard de Autrey and niece and
heir of William of Kilton. In 1231 he became conspicuous for his
opposition to the Roman and Italian clergy who had received papal
provision to churches in England. With the assistance of the
archbishop of York, an Italian had been intruded to the church of
Kirkleatham, the advowson of which Robert and his wife had recovered
in 1230 following litigation against the prior of Guisborough. Robert
adopted the alias William Wither, literally ‘William the Angry'; he
placed himself at the head of an armed agitation against the
foreigners and about Easter 1232 pillaged their corn and barns and
distributed the spoils among the poor. In response to complaints from
the pope Henry III ordered the arrest of various leading courtiers who
were implicated in these disturbances, including Hubert de Burgh (d.
1243), the chief justiciar, who is said to have lent tacit support to
the ‘Withermen' out of anger at a papal inquiry into the legality of
his marriage. Thwing is later to be found witnessing a charter of
Hubert's son, John de Burgh, but in 1232 there is nothing to suggest
that Hubert and Thwing were in any way close associates. Thwing
himself was sent by the king for absolution in Rome. In 1239 he made a
second visit to Rome, carrying with him a general letter of complaint
from the English barons. Perhaps through the influence of Richard,
earl of Cornwall, to whose household Thwing had attached himself, he
obtained letters from Pope Gregory IX (r. 1227–41) protecting the
rights of lay patrons against papal provision. Early in the following
year Thwing set out with Earl Richard on crusade. In September 1240,
from Marseilles, he was sent as an envoy to the emperor, Frederick II
(r. 1212–50), with information about the pope's attempts to delay the
crusade. As a result, he may never have reached the Holy Land. In 1244
he was accused of making a violent attack upon a clerk of the
archbishop of York in the king's hall at Windsor. His lands were
seized, but restored the following year. The date of his death is
unknown, but he was probably dead by 1257 when his eldest son and
heir, Marmaduke (II) of Thwing, had control of the chief family
estates.
Confusion arises between Sir Robert of Thwing and at least two other
namesakes: his grandson, also named Robert, who was still a minor in
1266, and another Robert, perhaps an illegitimate son of Sir Robert,
who married a woman named Hugolina, participated in negotiations with
the Scots, and from 1262 was employed as a knight of the royal
household. Marmaduke (II) of Thwing (d. 1282×4), son and heir of Sir
Robert, had by 1242 married Lucy, sister of Peter de Brus and heir to
part of the barony of Skelton, with whom he had several sons. Robert,
the eldest of these, died without male children before 1283 and was
succeeded in the Thwing estates by his brother Marmaduke, who was
prominent in the Scottish wars of the reign of Edward I. Marmaduke
(III) of Thwing [Thweng], first Baron Thwing (d. 1323), played a
leading role at the battle of Stirling in 1297, but in 1299 was taken
prisoner and ransomed by the Scots. By writ of summons issued in 1307
he is considered to have become the first Baron Thwing or Thweng. In
1312 he joined Thomas, earl of Lancaster, in the attack upon Piers
Gaveston, and in 1321, at the time of Lancaster's great rebellion, his
loyalties were the subject of suspicion by the crown. He died in 1323
and was succeeded in the barony by his three sons—William, Robert, and
Thomas—all of whom died childless. On the death of Thomas in 1374 the
barony fell into abeyance, and the Thwing estates were partitioned
among various of Thomas's sisters and nieces. St John of Bridlington
(c.1320-1379), sometimes called John Twenge or Thwing, author of
caustic, prophetic verses against the government of Edward III, may
have sprung from the same family.
NICHOLAS VINCENT
Sources Chancery records • Paris, Chron. • N. Vincent, Peter des
Roches: an alien in English politics, 1205–38, Cambridge Studies in
Medieval Life and Thought, 4th ser., 31 (1996) • GEC, Peerage • W.
Farrer and others, eds., Early Yorkshire charters, 12 vols. (1914–65),
vols. 2, 9 • W. Brown, ed., Cartularium prioratus de Gyseburne, 2
vols., SurtS, 86, 89 (1889–94) • A. H. Thompson, ed., Northumberland
pleas from the curia regis and assize rolls, 1198–1272, Newcastle upon
Tyne Records Committee Publications, 2 (1922) • I. J. Sanders, English
baronies: a study of their origin and descent, 1086–1327 (1960) •
Warter cartulary, Bodl. Oxf., MS Fairfax 9, fols. 42r–43v
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
© Oxford University Press 2004 All rights reserved
Nicholas Vincent, ‘Thwing , Sir Robert (III) of (d. 1245x57)', Oxford
Dictionary of National Biography, Oxford University Press, 2004
[accessed 1 Oct 2004: http://www.oxforddnb.com/view/article/27418]
-
Gjest
Re: Thomas de Thweng (d. 1374) and the Constables of Flambor
Friday, 1 October, 2004
Dear David,
Thanks for your post re: the Thwengs to be found in the DNB. (And, as
said before, for all the work at the Bradford Archives & c. re: the Deyvill
dilemma.)
The marriage you note for Cecily de Thweng to William le Constable is
correct, and evidently the source of the name 'Marmaduke' coming into that
family. However, as things re: the Constables have not been straightforward to
date, this is another example of Constable confusion. This was William le
Constable of Halsham (in Holderness), ancestor of the Constables of Halsham and of
Burton Constable - a family distinct from that of the Constables of
Flamborough. The chronology, onomastics and geographic location of the Halsham family
have certainly not helped in sorting out the Flamborough family.
Cheers,
John
Dear David,
Thanks for your post re: the Thwengs to be found in the DNB. (And, as
said before, for all the work at the Bradford Archives & c. re: the Deyvill
dilemma.)
The marriage you note for Cecily de Thweng to William le Constable is
correct, and evidently the source of the name 'Marmaduke' coming into that
family. However, as things re: the Constables have not been straightforward to
date, this is another example of Constable confusion. This was William le
Constable of Halsham (in Holderness), ancestor of the Constables of Halsham and of
Burton Constable - a family distinct from that of the Constables of
Flamborough. The chronology, onomastics and geographic location of the Halsham family
have certainly not helped in sorting out the Flamborough family.
Cheers,
John
-
David Hepworth
Re: Thomas de Thweng (d. 1374) and the Constables of Flambor
Dear John
A friend came over this weekend on a partially related subject (as you
know I've been working on outlaws) and this includes many of the
families we are discussing. I was mentioning the work being done and
he sent the following through if it adds anything at all.
Ist result, three quarters of the way down the page (pull down on
right side of page) are deeds with Juliana Deyvil and Robert
Constable. A deed dated 1267 has Robert le Constable and his mother
Dame Juliana Deyvil.
Richard Constable, son of William held land in Holm which possibly is
the Holm near Howden. Richard, Robert and William were all rebels
around 1266.
From the records I have seen, the Constable tree goes like this:
Robert le Constable of Holderness had three sons that I have seen,
William, Simon and Fulk.
William le Constable (b1205) had sons, Simon (b1243), Robert, Richard
and possibly William has there is a deed on the a2a site which says
William son of William Constable. I think that this may be the main
point where the Constables separated into Constables of Halsham and
Constables of Flamborough. That said I have seen in the EYC, William
le Constable referred to as of Holderness and of Flamborough. Robert
le Constable jnr is widely described as of Flamborough and his lands
seized in 1266 were near Flamborough.
17. Convention between Sir Marmaduke de Tweng and William the
Constable, son of Robert the Constable of Holderness, property 1
bovate and service of 6 carucates in Killum given by Sir M. to W. in
marriage with his daughter Cicely, reserving services due to the
Archbishop and Chapter of Rouen. Wtn. Fulk de Oyri, John de Ancona,
Walter Grendalle, Roger Aguillon, John de Edlington, Simon the
Constable. Michaelmas 1227.
That is the marriage deed, it is 7/8s of the way down the page of the
1st result.
I have just found this in my notes:
EYC Vol XI Percy Fee p204
'In 1240, the Prior of Sixle recognised that he held a tenement in
Legsby and North Willingham of William le Constable and Cecily his
wife at a yearly rent of 100s, doing the forinsec service to the Chief
Lords of the fee. Robert de Tweng was present and warranted to the
Prior the tenement from which the service was due. Cecily, as will be
noted below was Robert's sister and daughter of Marmeduke de Tweng and
it is clear that the latter gave part of the Tweng interest in Legsby
to William le Constable in frank marriage when he gave land in Killum
in the East Riding of Yorkshire'.
William le Constable must have been married twice. He married Cicely
de Tweng in 1227/8ish and they are still married in 1240. She has then
either died or he has divorced her and then he marries Juliana Deyvil
who is the mother of at least Robert le Constable (b c1245)? Simon
might be the son of either Cecily de Tweng or Juliana Deyvil?
I have just been looking at my notes and I have a record with a Birken
in.
Patent Roll 1216-1225 p310
1221
'De justiciariis constitutuendis
Johannes de Birken, Marmeducas de Tueng, Willelmus de Tameton,
Jordanus Heirin, constituti sunt justiciarii ad assisam nove
dissaissine capiendum apud Eboracum a die Sancti Johannis Baptiste in
xv dies, quam Galfridus de Frisbois et Beatricia uxor ejus, Alanus de
Surdevall et Hawisia uxor ejus, aramiaverunt versus W comitem
Albermarle et Adam de Caruis et Walterum de Dik, Robertum de Lelay et
priorem Sancte Trinitatis Eboraci de tenemento in Beningholm.
Et mandatum est vicecomiti Eboraci quad assisam illam coram eis venire
faciat.
Beningholm is near Halsham and in 1285 was listed as a manor held by
Simon Constable.
From the above entry, the Heyrun/Heririn family are also closely
allied to the Tweng family. The family held land at Killum near Twing
but were landholders in and connected mainly to Northumberland.
Liberate Rolls 1251-1260 p356
Feb 15 1257 Westminster Allocate to William Heyrun, Sheriff of
Northumberland, in the issues of the county, 20 marks for the expenses
of himself and Robert de Tuenge on divers occasions when going on the
King's errands to the parts of Scotland'.
Patent Roll 1247-1258 p471
1256
May 2 Windsor- Protection clause for Robert de Tweng, Gilbert Darel,
Walter Darel and Marmeduke de Elvredeby who are going beyond seas with
the said Robert in the service of the King of Scotland, so long as
they be there in the said service'.
Robert de Tweng was heavily engaged on missions to and from Scotland
for Henry III and Alexander III, King of Scotland. In 1256 (above), he
accompanied one of Alexander's chief advisors on a mission to Rome to
see the Pope. There is a strong connection between the northern nobles
and the Scottish King Alexander. Interesting indeed that Robert Hod
turns up in the Scottish records in 1264 receiving the robe and
pension for service done to Alexander III. In a Royal Letter, dated 10
June 1262, Alexander sent a letter to Henry saying that he could not
spare Roger de Mowbray whom Henry had requested to return to England.
John Deyvil held his manors in North Yorkshire of Roger de Mowbray has
did Richard de Riparia. Roger was in Scotland serving Alexander just
around or before the time Robert Hod must have been serving Alexander.
The Holderness rebellion arose as a refusal to be summoned by Henry
and Edward for service to Scotland. Pacification terms were agreed to
bring the rebellion to an end. I wonder if part of the concession the
rebels would have had to agree was that some of them may have had to
serve in Scotland anyway?
Cheers
David
A friend came over this weekend on a partially related subject (as you
know I've been working on outlaws) and this includes many of the
families we are discussing. I was mentioning the work being done and
he sent the following through if it adds anything at all.
Ist result, three quarters of the way down the page (pull down on
right side of page) are deeds with Juliana Deyvil and Robert
Constable. A deed dated 1267 has Robert le Constable and his mother
Dame Juliana Deyvil.
Richard Constable, son of William held land in Holm which possibly is
the Holm near Howden. Richard, Robert and William were all rebels
around 1266.
From the records I have seen, the Constable tree goes like this:
Robert le Constable of Holderness had three sons that I have seen,
William, Simon and Fulk.
William le Constable (b1205) had sons, Simon (b1243), Robert, Richard
and possibly William has there is a deed on the a2a site which says
William son of William Constable. I think that this may be the main
point where the Constables separated into Constables of Halsham and
Constables of Flamborough. That said I have seen in the EYC, William
le Constable referred to as of Holderness and of Flamborough. Robert
le Constable jnr is widely described as of Flamborough and his lands
seized in 1266 were near Flamborough.
17. Convention between Sir Marmaduke de Tweng and William the
Constable, son of Robert the Constable of Holderness, property 1
bovate and service of 6 carucates in Killum given by Sir M. to W. in
marriage with his daughter Cicely, reserving services due to the
Archbishop and Chapter of Rouen. Wtn. Fulk de Oyri, John de Ancona,
Walter Grendalle, Roger Aguillon, John de Edlington, Simon the
Constable. Michaelmas 1227.
That is the marriage deed, it is 7/8s of the way down the page of the
1st result.
I have just found this in my notes:
EYC Vol XI Percy Fee p204
'In 1240, the Prior of Sixle recognised that he held a tenement in
Legsby and North Willingham of William le Constable and Cecily his
wife at a yearly rent of 100s, doing the forinsec service to the Chief
Lords of the fee. Robert de Tweng was present and warranted to the
Prior the tenement from which the service was due. Cecily, as will be
noted below was Robert's sister and daughter of Marmeduke de Tweng and
it is clear that the latter gave part of the Tweng interest in Legsby
to William le Constable in frank marriage when he gave land in Killum
in the East Riding of Yorkshire'.
William le Constable must have been married twice. He married Cicely
de Tweng in 1227/8ish and they are still married in 1240. She has then
either died or he has divorced her and then he marries Juliana Deyvil
who is the mother of at least Robert le Constable (b c1245)? Simon
might be the son of either Cecily de Tweng or Juliana Deyvil?
I have just been looking at my notes and I have a record with a Birken
in.
Patent Roll 1216-1225 p310
1221
'De justiciariis constitutuendis
Johannes de Birken, Marmeducas de Tueng, Willelmus de Tameton,
Jordanus Heirin, constituti sunt justiciarii ad assisam nove
dissaissine capiendum apud Eboracum a die Sancti Johannis Baptiste in
xv dies, quam Galfridus de Frisbois et Beatricia uxor ejus, Alanus de
Surdevall et Hawisia uxor ejus, aramiaverunt versus W comitem
Albermarle et Adam de Caruis et Walterum de Dik, Robertum de Lelay et
priorem Sancte Trinitatis Eboraci de tenemento in Beningholm.
Et mandatum est vicecomiti Eboraci quad assisam illam coram eis venire
faciat.
Beningholm is near Halsham and in 1285 was listed as a manor held by
Simon Constable.
From the above entry, the Heyrun/Heririn family are also closely
allied to the Tweng family. The family held land at Killum near Twing
but were landholders in and connected mainly to Northumberland.
Liberate Rolls 1251-1260 p356
Feb 15 1257 Westminster Allocate to William Heyrun, Sheriff of
Northumberland, in the issues of the county, 20 marks for the expenses
of himself and Robert de Tuenge on divers occasions when going on the
King's errands to the parts of Scotland'.
Patent Roll 1247-1258 p471
1256
May 2 Windsor- Protection clause for Robert de Tweng, Gilbert Darel,
Walter Darel and Marmeduke de Elvredeby who are going beyond seas with
the said Robert in the service of the King of Scotland, so long as
they be there in the said service'.
Robert de Tweng was heavily engaged on missions to and from Scotland
for Henry III and Alexander III, King of Scotland. In 1256 (above), he
accompanied one of Alexander's chief advisors on a mission to Rome to
see the Pope. There is a strong connection between the northern nobles
and the Scottish King Alexander. Interesting indeed that Robert Hod
turns up in the Scottish records in 1264 receiving the robe and
pension for service done to Alexander III. In a Royal Letter, dated 10
June 1262, Alexander sent a letter to Henry saying that he could not
spare Roger de Mowbray whom Henry had requested to return to England.
John Deyvil held his manors in North Yorkshire of Roger de Mowbray has
did Richard de Riparia. Roger was in Scotland serving Alexander just
around or before the time Robert Hod must have been serving Alexander.
The Holderness rebellion arose as a refusal to be summoned by Henry
and Edward for service to Scotland. Pacification terms were agreed to
bring the rebellion to an end. I wonder if part of the concession the
rebels would have had to agree was that some of them may have had to
serve in Scotland anyway?
Cheers
David
-
David Hepworth
Re: Thomas de Thweng (d. 1374) and the Constables of Flambor
Dear John, Rosie and all others
When I posted the DNB Thweng, I did not include the Constables - so
here it is for what it's worth.....hopefully it will help clear some
things up. I will attempt to get into the East Riding and Hull
University Archives this week and see if there are any pedigrees in
the family archives that may help.
Constable family (per. c.1300-1488), gentry
by Rosemary Horrox
© Oxford University Press 2004 All rights reserved
Constable family (per. c.1300-1488), gentry, of Flamborough, owed both
their surname and their Yorkshire base to service with Hugh
d'Avranches, earl of Chester, who held an estate in Flamborough in
1086. The direct male line came to an end in 1139 and it was almost
certainly an illegitimate son who inherited Flamborough and
Holme-on-Spalding Moor, which were to remain in the hands of his
descendants for the rest of the middle ages. The family was distinct
from the Constables of Halsham, and the existence of two knightly
families of the same name in the East Riding offers considerable scope
for confusion.
For much of their history the Constables of Flamborough seem to have
been of little importance outside their immediate area. A rare example
of political involvement occurred at the beginning of the fourteenth
century, when Sir Robert [i] Constable (fl. 1313-1338/9), the eldest
son of Sir William [i] Constable (d. 1319), allied himself with
Thomas, earl of Lancaster. In 1313 Robert was among those pardoned for
his involvement in the death of the king's favourite Piers Gaveston in
the previous year and he was again associated with the earl in May
1321, when the local Bridlington chronicler noted him among the
northern gentry present at the earl's ‘parliament' at Pontefract. Like
many northerners, however, he later dissociated himself from the earl.
He was not present at the Sherburn meeting in the following month, and
in 1322 was given powers of array by the king. After that he appears
to have withdrawn from public affairs, and in October 1331 secured
exemption from office, although he was made an arrayer again early in
1333.
A partial explanation for Robert's withdrawal may have been his
chronic indebtedness. From 1317 until the mid-1330s he acknowledged
debts to a wide range of local merchants and clerics, as well as to
more influential figures. His financial position may have eased by
1338–9, when he bought a mill and pasture in Flamborough, but in terms
of public office the family remained eclipsed for a further decade.
Robert is not recorded after his purchase of the mill, but it is
unclear when he died or who succeeded him. His eldest son was probably
the Sir William [ii] Constable associated with him in the mid-1330s,
but there is no reference to the latter as head of the family, and he
was certainly dead by 1346 when Sir Marmaduke [i] Constable (d. 1378),
presumably William [ii]'s younger brother, was lord of Flamborough. By
1351 Marmaduke had the resources to undertake rebuilding at
Flamborough and obtained licence to crenellate the manor. Alongside
this suggestion of growing prosperity Marmaduke was taking on a larger
public role. In 1349 he was appointed an executor of Archbishop
Zouche, he was added to the commission of the peace in 1351, and was
sheriff of Yorkshire in 1360–62 and 1366–7. He was discharged as
commissioner in May 1370, which seems to mark the end of his public
career, although he did not die until 21 May 1378. His last months
were overshadowed by the murder of his kinsman John at
Holme-on-Spalding Moor in June 1377 by two men identified as the
cousins of the parson. There had been trouble there in 1365, when a
commission of oyer and terminer had been appointed to investigate
Marmaduke's complaint that the residents had attacked his manor house,
and John's death was perhaps linked with continuing local unrest.
Marmaduke was succeeded by his son Sir Robert [ii] Constable
(c.1353-1400/01), who continued the family's slow rise into a more
than purely local prominence. During his father's lifetime he had
begun a military career, campaigning in Brittany in 1373 with John of
Gaunt, duke of Lancaster. This was the family's first known
association with the house of Lancaster since 1321, and it is unclear
whether the connection had been maintained in the intervening
generations. It may have been for his service on that campaign that
Robert was knighted. His military activity continued as head of the
family (he served in Brittany under Thomas of Woodstock in 1380 and in
Scotland under Gaunt in 1383) alongside involvement in local
government. He was a justice of the peace for the East Riding and
sheriff of Yorkshire in 1385–6 and 1394–5, and was returned to
parliament in 1388. He acquired land in Butterwick in Ryedale,
Yorkshire, in 1395, and it may also have been Robert who forged the
links with the Percy family that were to be of such importance to the
family in the next century. By 1405 (but not in 1378) the Constables
held land of the earl of Northumberland in Nafferton, Yorkshire, and
elsewhere.
Robert was unmarried at his father's death, but within three years had
married Margaret Skipwith, the widow of Alexander Surtees (d. 1380) of
North Gosforth, Northumberland. They were pardoned for marrying
without licence in January 1384, but the marriage must have taken
place earlier, since Robert's heir was old enough to inherit at his
father's death, which occurred in late 1400 or early 1401. It is
indicative of the family's growing importance that Robert [ii] is the
first Constable whose wife can be securely identified. Of the heads of
family discussed so far, William [i]'s wife is completely unknown.
Katherine, the first wife of his son Robert [i], was probably a
Thwing, to judge by the inclusion of Robert and Katherine and their
children among the kinsfolk remembered in the chantry of Thomas
Thwing. Robert's second wife, Joan, cannot be identified beyond the
fact that she was a widow with dower lands in Hook. Marmaduke [i] was
married twice, to Joan and Elizabeth, but the surname of neither is
known. There is no evidence that any of the marriages brought the
family significant land.
It was the marriage arranged by Robert [ii] for his son and heir, Sir
Marmaduke [ii] Constable (d. 1404), that was ultimately to secure for
the Constables their first major territorial gains, although this
could not have been foreseen at the time. Katherine Constable (d.
c.1404), Marmaduke's wife, the daughter of Robert Cumberworth of
Somerby, Lincolnshire, was not an heiress at the time of the marriage,
but her brother Thomas died childless in 1451, and Katherine's
grandson was his heir. Marmaduke died in summer 1404, when his heir,
Robert [iii], was a minor, and at least part of the family's lands
passed into the keeping of the king's esquire Thomas Strickland. When
Sir Robert [iii] Constable (d. 1441) regained possession is unknown.
He had married Agnes (d. in or after 1467), daughter of Sir William
Gascoigne, by 1422, for his heir, Robert [iv], was born on Easter day
1423. It was a marriage that brought links to an important duchy of
Lancaster dynasty, but it does not seem to have contributed much to
the Constables' standing in local affairs. It was Robert [iii]'s
kinsman and namesake of Barnby by Bossall (d. 1454) who was to hold
office in the duchy in the 1430s and 1440s. Robert of Flamborough made
his will in May 1441 and was dead by the middle of June, leaving two
sons (his heir, Robert [iv], and William [iii], who was to end his
career as subdean of York) and two daughters.
Sir Robert [iv] Constable (1423-1488) was still under age at his
father's death and did not take possession of his lands until July
1444. By 1448 he had married Agnes, daughter of Sir Roger Wentworth of
North Elmsall, Yorkshire, and Margery, dowager Lady Ros. The marriage
drew Robert into the schemes of his brother-in-law, Philip, to secure
possession of the wardship of Thomas Fastolf against the opposition of
Sir John Fastolf. Philip Wentworth was rising fast in the king's
service in this period, although there is no evidence that Robert
benefited directly. A more tangible boost to Robert's standing came in
1451 when he inherited the Cumberworth estates of his great-uncle
Thomas, which gave him a role in Lincolnshire as well as Yorkshire: he
was to be sheriff of the latter in 1461–2 and 1478–9, and of the
former in 1466–7.
As these appointments suggest, Robert [iv] Constable weathered the
defeat of Lancaster in 1461, in spite of the family's connections with
the Percys. As early as August 1461 Edward IV had granted him the
stewardship of the Yorkshire lands of the earl of Northumberland and
Thomas, Lord Ros, at £40 p.a., and land grants, including some of the
Ros lands, followed. Such royal favour helped to ensure that Robert
and his son Sir Marmaduke Constable (d. 1518) were far wealthier and
more influential than their predecessors. Although Marmaduke's gains
in the service of Richard III were transient, by the time of Robert
[iv]'s death in May 1488 the family fortunes had been put on a sound
footing. One measure of their new affluence is the fact that Robert
[iv] was able to make landed provision for all his younger sons:
Robert [v], Philip, William [iv], and Roger. Marmaduke was able to do
the same for his three younger sons, and in addition bequeathed each
of them 100 marks in plate. A generation later the family's prosperity
was to be revealed, and lost, in the forfeitures that followed the
involvement of Marmaduke's son and heir, Sir Robert Constable, in the
Pilgrimage of Grace. The Constable arms were quarterly gules and vair,
over all a bend or.
ROSEMARY HORROX
Sources Chancery records[J. Raine and J. Raine], eds., Testamenta
Eboracensia, 1–4, SurtS, 4, 30, 45, 53 (1836–69) · W. Farrer and
others, eds., Early Yorkshire charters, 12 vols. (1914–65), vol. 12 ·
HoP, Commons, 1386–1421 · J. R. Maddicott, Thomas of Lancaster,
1307–1322: a study in the reign of Edward II (1970) · A. Smith,
‘Litigation and politics: Sir John Fastolf's defence of his English
property', Property and politics, ed. A. J. Pollard (1984), 59–75
Wealth at death over £300 p.a.—Robert Constable; partial evaluation:
CIPM, Henry VII, 1, nos. 363, 366
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
© Oxford University Press 2004 All rights reserved
Rosemary Horrox, ‘Constable family (per. c.1300-1488)', Oxford
Dictionary of National Biography, Oxford University Press, 2004
[accessed 4 Oct 2004: http://www.oxforddnb.com/view/article/52782]
Constable, Sir Marmaduke (1456/7?-1518), soldier and administrator
by Rosemary Horrox
© Oxford University Press 2004 All rights reserved
Constable, Sir Marmaduke (1456/7?-1518), soldier and administrator,
was the son of Sir Robert Constable (1423-1488) of Flamborough,
Yorkshire [see under Constable family (per. c.1300-1488)], and Agnes,
daughter of Sir Roger Wentworth of North Elmsall, Yorkshire, and
Margery, dowager Lady Ros. Marmaduke is described as aged thirty-one
and more at his father's death in May 1488, which would give a birth
date of 1456 or 1457. This fits the circumstances of his career better
than the claim in his epitaph in Flamborough church that he was aged
seventy when he fought at Flodden (1513), which would push his birth
date back by over a decade. Unlike their kinsmen of Barnby by Bossall,
who were Neville associates, the Flamborough Constables followed the
Percys. Sir Robert transferred readily to the service of Edward IV in
1461, but father and son were both retained by Henry Percy, fourth
earl of Northumberland, after his restoration in 1470 and shared the
stewardship of his lands in the East Riding. Marmaduke served under
the earl in the Scottish campaigns of the early 1480s and was knighted
by him beside Berwick in August 1481. According to his epitaph he had
earlier gone with Edward IV into France, presumably in
Northumberland's contingent.
Constable then entered the service of Richard III. He was a knight of
the body by December 1483, when he was one of the king's associates
given forfeited land and office in Kent in the aftermath of
Buckingham's rebellion. Constable's Kentish base was to be the
Stafford honour of Tonbridge, where he was made steward in December
1483 and where the inhabitants were informed in January that the king
had deputed him ‘to make his abode among you' (BL, Harl. MS 4332, fol.
81). However, the king had second thoughts about where Constable would
be most useful and on 28 March granted him all the major duchy of
Lancaster offices in the north midlands, including the constableship
of Tutbury, which became his base. Unlike his predecessor in the
offices, William, Lord Hastings, Constable was explicitly forbidden to
retain the local gentry and was evidently intended to act under
stricter royal control than Hastings, to whom Edward had allowed great
independence of action.
It is not clear whether Constable fought at Bosworth. Perhaps, like
Northumberland, he was present without fighting. He certainly escaped
attainder, and was pardoned on 18 November. By May 1486, when he was
granted the stewardships of Bawtry and Hotham, Yorkshire, he was again
a knight of the body. He succeeded his father in May 1488, having
formerly held Holme on Spalding moor, Yorkshire, and Somerby,
Lincolnshire, which his father had settled on him. In November 1488 he
became sheriff of Yorkshire and thus played a major role in dealing
with the unrest of 1489 in which the earl of Northumberland was
killed. In 1492 he accompanied the king to France and was involved in
the ensuing negotiations which led to the treaty of Étaples. It seems
that after Northumberland's death Constable became associated with
Thomas Howard, earl of Surrey, who was taking an increasing role in
northern affairs. In 1509 Surrey nominated him as a knight of the
Garter, although he was not elected. In 1513 Constable served under
Howard at Flodden, where he commanded the left wing; he received a
letter of thanks from the king.
Constable died on 20 November 1518. His will, made the previous May,
requested that he be buried as soon as his body was cold, ‘without
calling of friends or any other solemnity' (Raine, 91). He had married
twice. With his first wife, Margery, daughter of William, Lord
Fitzhugh, Constable had no children. With his second wife, Joyce, the
daughter of Humphrey Stafford of Grafton, he had four sons (Robert,
who succeeded him, Marmaduke, William, and John) and two daughters.
His second son, Sir Marmaduke Constable (c.1480-1545), soldier,
married Barbara, daughter of Sir John Sotehill of Everingham, by
November 1502, the year in which the Sotehill lands were divided
between her and her sister Mary, the wife of John Normanville, after
the death of their imbecile brother, George. Constable fought under
his father at Flodden and was knighted on the battlefield. He fought
in several later Scottish campaigns, accompanied Henry VIII to the
Field of Cloth of Gold and was a knight of the body by 1533. Unlike
his elder brother Robert he did not support the Pilgrimage of Grace
and his share of the spoils of the dissolution was Drax Priory,
founded by his wife's ancestors. He died on 14 September 1545; his
wife had died on 4 October 1540.
ROSEMARY HORROX
Sources Chancery records · R. Horrox, Richard III, a study of
service, Cambridge Studies in Medieval Life and Thought, 4th ser., 11
(1989) · K. Dockray, ‘Sir Marmaduke Constable of Flamborough', Richard
III: crown and people, ed. J. Petre (1985), 218–23 · [J. Raine], ed.,
Testamenta Eboracensia, 5, SurtS, 79 (1884) · N&Q, 3rd ser., 2 (1862),
208 · HoP, Commons · J. Foster, ed., Pedigrees of the county families
of Yorkshire, 3 (1874)
Archives BL, Harley MS 4332, fol. 81
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
© Oxford University Press 2004 All rights reserved
Rosemary Horrox, ‘Constable, Sir Marmaduke (1456/7?-1518)', Oxford
Dictionary of National Biography, Oxford University Press, 2004
[accessed 4 Oct 2004: http://www.oxforddnb.com/view/article/6108]
Constable, Sir Robert (1478?-1537), rebel
by Christine M. Newman
© Oxford University Press 2004 All rights reserved
Constable, Sir Robert (1478?-1537), rebel, of Flamborough, in the East
Riding of Yorkshire, was probably born in 1478, the eldest of four
sons and two daughters of Sir Marmaduke Constable (1456/7?-1518),
soldier and administrator, and his wife, Joyce, the daughter of Sir
Humphrey Stafford of Grafton, Cheshire. Sir Marmaduke Constable the
younger [see under Constable, Sir Marmaduke (1456/?-1518)] was his
brother. By his marriage to Jane, daughter of Sir William Ingleby of
Ripley, Yorkshire, Constable had three sons and four (or possibly
five) daughters.
Little is known of Constable's early life and education. From his
early career, however, it seems likely that he was trained as a
soldier and retained a preference for the traditional militaristic
pursuits of his class. He was in the royal army which defeated the
Cornish rebels at Blackheath and was knighted on the battlefield on 17
June 1497. In 1511 he took part in the short-lived military expedition
against the Moors led by Thomas Darcy, Baron Darcy, undertaken at the
request of Ferdinand of Spain. Two years later he participated in the
battle of Flodden, alongside his father, brothers, and other kinsmen.
Constable forged increasingly close connections with the court at this
time, where, by 1517, he had been appointed knight of the body.
Upon the death of his father in 1518, Constable succeeded to the
considerable estates centred on the principal family seat of
Flamborough. Thereafter he continued to participate in the
administration of his locality. He was JP and commissioner of array
for the East Riding from the early 1500s until the outbreak of the
Pilgrimage of Grace in 1536. In the early 1530s he was also sworn of
the king's council of the north, which had been newly reconstituted
following the downfall of Cardinal Thomas Wolsey, archbishop of York.
His influence in the region was augmented by his appointment to a
number of stewardships, including those of the crown lordships of
Sheriff Hutton (which he was required to relinquish in 1532) and
Hotham and the Percy lordships of Leconfield and Pocklington, all in
Yorkshire. He was also steward of the Yorkshire liberty of Howden for
Cuthbert Tunstall, bishop of Durham.
By nature Constable was volatile and noted for his ‘dangerous
disposition' (Dodds and Dodds, 1.46). In the early 1520s his feuds
were among those which, within Yorkshire, created much dissension and
he was called to account for his behaviour before Thomas Howard, earl
of Surrey, Henry VIII's lieutenant in the north. In 1525 he obtained a
royal pardon for his ‘riotous' abduction of a royal ward (LP Henry
VIII, 4/1, no. 1115). In the early 1530s, as a result of his
involvement in further disputes, he made several appearances before
the court of Star Chamber. In 1534 Constable's unseemly behaviour led
to calls for his dismissal from the commission of the peace.
The precise motivation behind Constable's rebellious participation in
the Pilgrimage of Grace is not clear. His family had long been tenants
and clients of the earls of Northumberland, who had extensive landed
interests in the East Riding and Constable was a member of the council
of Henry Percy, sixth earl of Northumberland. Percy affinities
undoubtedly played a part in the rebellion and this, to some extent,
may have accounted for Constable's stance. Other factors, such as his
increasing dissatisfaction with the aims of royal government, may also
have played a part. In religious matters, too, he, along with his old
friends Darcy and John Hussey, Baron Hussey, maintained a traditional
stance. In 1534 all three men had agreed upon their aversion towards
heresy and their determination to die as ‘Christian men'.
Whatever his ultimate motivation—and despite his initial reluctance
and claims that he was coerced—Constable was quickly drawn into the
pilgrimage and soon became one of its leaders. He adopted, in the
first instance, a resolutely rebellious stance but subsequently went
on to accept a royal pardon under the terms of the agreement reached
at Doncaster in early December 1536. During Sir Francis Bigod's revolt
in January 1537, Constable strove to stay the commons and maintain
order, in accordance with the December agreement. Nevertheless, the
resurgence of the rebellion provided the crown with the opportunity to
take reprisals against the rebel leaders. Constable, together with
other leading pilgrims, was summoned to London where he was imprisoned
in the Tower of London and subsequently indicted, not for his
activities in the main phase of the rebellion, but for offences
allegedly committed after his pardon. Following his trial and
condemnation, Constable was taken to Hull for execution. On 6 July
1537, he was taken to the town's Beverley Gate and there hanged in
chains.
CHRISTINE M. NEWMAN
Sources LP Henry VIII · M. H. Dodds and R. Dodds, The Pilgrimage of
Grace, 1536–1537, and the Exeter conspiracy, 1538, 2 vols. (1915) · R.
R. Reid, The king's council in the north (1921) · M. Bush, The
Pilgrimage of Grace: a study of the rebel armies of October 1536
(1996) · M. Bush and D. Bownes, The defeat of the Pilgrimage of Grace
(1999) · A. Fletcher, Tudor rebellions, 3rd edn (1983) · W. A. Shaw,
The knights of England, 2 vols. (1906), vol. 2 · HoP, Commons, 1509–58
· [F. W. Dendy and C. H. Hunter Blair], eds., Visitations of the
north, 4 pts, SurtS, 122, 133, 144, 146 (1912–32) · B. English, The
great landowners of east Yorkshire, 1530–1910 (1990) · W. Brown, ed.,
Yorkshire Star Chamber proceedings, 1, Yorkshire Archaeological
Society, 41 (1909) · J. A. Froude, History of England, 2nd edn, 12
vols. (1858–66), vol. 3 · R. W. Hoyle, The Pilgrimage of Grace and the
politics of the 1530s (2001)
Archives BL, family and estate papers, Add. MSS 40132–40137
Wealth at death held fifty-one manors which were forfeited upon
attainder: U. Hull, manuscripts and archives database (catalogue of
Constable, Maxwell, and Sherburne family papers)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
© Oxford University Press 2004 All rights reserved
Christine M. Newman, ‘Constable, Sir Robert (1478?-1537)', Oxford
Dictionary of National Biography, Oxford University Press, 2004
[accessed 4 Oct 2004: http://www.oxforddnb.com/view/article/6110]
Dr Horrox is at Fitzwilliam College Cambridge and her email is
reh37@cam.ac.uk - she has done a lot of work on Hull and the families
that have made the East Riding - could I suggest a contact to her may
help - I'm happy to go ahead if you like - but perhaps if any of you
have questions, then please email me privately with them - we don't
want to bombard her with lots of separate emails at the beginning of
an academic year.
Cheers
David
When I posted the DNB Thweng, I did not include the Constables - so
here it is for what it's worth.....hopefully it will help clear some
things up. I will attempt to get into the East Riding and Hull
University Archives this week and see if there are any pedigrees in
the family archives that may help.
Constable family (per. c.1300-1488), gentry
by Rosemary Horrox
© Oxford University Press 2004 All rights reserved
Constable family (per. c.1300-1488), gentry, of Flamborough, owed both
their surname and their Yorkshire base to service with Hugh
d'Avranches, earl of Chester, who held an estate in Flamborough in
1086. The direct male line came to an end in 1139 and it was almost
certainly an illegitimate son who inherited Flamborough and
Holme-on-Spalding Moor, which were to remain in the hands of his
descendants for the rest of the middle ages. The family was distinct
from the Constables of Halsham, and the existence of two knightly
families of the same name in the East Riding offers considerable scope
for confusion.
For much of their history the Constables of Flamborough seem to have
been of little importance outside their immediate area. A rare example
of political involvement occurred at the beginning of the fourteenth
century, when Sir Robert [i] Constable (fl. 1313-1338/9), the eldest
son of Sir William [i] Constable (d. 1319), allied himself with
Thomas, earl of Lancaster. In 1313 Robert was among those pardoned for
his involvement in the death of the king's favourite Piers Gaveston in
the previous year and he was again associated with the earl in May
1321, when the local Bridlington chronicler noted him among the
northern gentry present at the earl's ‘parliament' at Pontefract. Like
many northerners, however, he later dissociated himself from the earl.
He was not present at the Sherburn meeting in the following month, and
in 1322 was given powers of array by the king. After that he appears
to have withdrawn from public affairs, and in October 1331 secured
exemption from office, although he was made an arrayer again early in
1333.
A partial explanation for Robert's withdrawal may have been his
chronic indebtedness. From 1317 until the mid-1330s he acknowledged
debts to a wide range of local merchants and clerics, as well as to
more influential figures. His financial position may have eased by
1338–9, when he bought a mill and pasture in Flamborough, but in terms
of public office the family remained eclipsed for a further decade.
Robert is not recorded after his purchase of the mill, but it is
unclear when he died or who succeeded him. His eldest son was probably
the Sir William [ii] Constable associated with him in the mid-1330s,
but there is no reference to the latter as head of the family, and he
was certainly dead by 1346 when Sir Marmaduke [i] Constable (d. 1378),
presumably William [ii]'s younger brother, was lord of Flamborough. By
1351 Marmaduke had the resources to undertake rebuilding at
Flamborough and obtained licence to crenellate the manor. Alongside
this suggestion of growing prosperity Marmaduke was taking on a larger
public role. In 1349 he was appointed an executor of Archbishop
Zouche, he was added to the commission of the peace in 1351, and was
sheriff of Yorkshire in 1360–62 and 1366–7. He was discharged as
commissioner in May 1370, which seems to mark the end of his public
career, although he did not die until 21 May 1378. His last months
were overshadowed by the murder of his kinsman John at
Holme-on-Spalding Moor in June 1377 by two men identified as the
cousins of the parson. There had been trouble there in 1365, when a
commission of oyer and terminer had been appointed to investigate
Marmaduke's complaint that the residents had attacked his manor house,
and John's death was perhaps linked with continuing local unrest.
Marmaduke was succeeded by his son Sir Robert [ii] Constable
(c.1353-1400/01), who continued the family's slow rise into a more
than purely local prominence. During his father's lifetime he had
begun a military career, campaigning in Brittany in 1373 with John of
Gaunt, duke of Lancaster. This was the family's first known
association with the house of Lancaster since 1321, and it is unclear
whether the connection had been maintained in the intervening
generations. It may have been for his service on that campaign that
Robert was knighted. His military activity continued as head of the
family (he served in Brittany under Thomas of Woodstock in 1380 and in
Scotland under Gaunt in 1383) alongside involvement in local
government. He was a justice of the peace for the East Riding and
sheriff of Yorkshire in 1385–6 and 1394–5, and was returned to
parliament in 1388. He acquired land in Butterwick in Ryedale,
Yorkshire, in 1395, and it may also have been Robert who forged the
links with the Percy family that were to be of such importance to the
family in the next century. By 1405 (but not in 1378) the Constables
held land of the earl of Northumberland in Nafferton, Yorkshire, and
elsewhere.
Robert was unmarried at his father's death, but within three years had
married Margaret Skipwith, the widow of Alexander Surtees (d. 1380) of
North Gosforth, Northumberland. They were pardoned for marrying
without licence in January 1384, but the marriage must have taken
place earlier, since Robert's heir was old enough to inherit at his
father's death, which occurred in late 1400 or early 1401. It is
indicative of the family's growing importance that Robert [ii] is the
first Constable whose wife can be securely identified. Of the heads of
family discussed so far, William [i]'s wife is completely unknown.
Katherine, the first wife of his son Robert [i], was probably a
Thwing, to judge by the inclusion of Robert and Katherine and their
children among the kinsfolk remembered in the chantry of Thomas
Thwing. Robert's second wife, Joan, cannot be identified beyond the
fact that she was a widow with dower lands in Hook. Marmaduke [i] was
married twice, to Joan and Elizabeth, but the surname of neither is
known. There is no evidence that any of the marriages brought the
family significant land.
It was the marriage arranged by Robert [ii] for his son and heir, Sir
Marmaduke [ii] Constable (d. 1404), that was ultimately to secure for
the Constables their first major territorial gains, although this
could not have been foreseen at the time. Katherine Constable (d.
c.1404), Marmaduke's wife, the daughter of Robert Cumberworth of
Somerby, Lincolnshire, was not an heiress at the time of the marriage,
but her brother Thomas died childless in 1451, and Katherine's
grandson was his heir. Marmaduke died in summer 1404, when his heir,
Robert [iii], was a minor, and at least part of the family's lands
passed into the keeping of the king's esquire Thomas Strickland. When
Sir Robert [iii] Constable (d. 1441) regained possession is unknown.
He had married Agnes (d. in or after 1467), daughter of Sir William
Gascoigne, by 1422, for his heir, Robert [iv], was born on Easter day
1423. It was a marriage that brought links to an important duchy of
Lancaster dynasty, but it does not seem to have contributed much to
the Constables' standing in local affairs. It was Robert [iii]'s
kinsman and namesake of Barnby by Bossall (d. 1454) who was to hold
office in the duchy in the 1430s and 1440s. Robert of Flamborough made
his will in May 1441 and was dead by the middle of June, leaving two
sons (his heir, Robert [iv], and William [iii], who was to end his
career as subdean of York) and two daughters.
Sir Robert [iv] Constable (1423-1488) was still under age at his
father's death and did not take possession of his lands until July
1444. By 1448 he had married Agnes, daughter of Sir Roger Wentworth of
North Elmsall, Yorkshire, and Margery, dowager Lady Ros. The marriage
drew Robert into the schemes of his brother-in-law, Philip, to secure
possession of the wardship of Thomas Fastolf against the opposition of
Sir John Fastolf. Philip Wentworth was rising fast in the king's
service in this period, although there is no evidence that Robert
benefited directly. A more tangible boost to Robert's standing came in
1451 when he inherited the Cumberworth estates of his great-uncle
Thomas, which gave him a role in Lincolnshire as well as Yorkshire: he
was to be sheriff of the latter in 1461–2 and 1478–9, and of the
former in 1466–7.
As these appointments suggest, Robert [iv] Constable weathered the
defeat of Lancaster in 1461, in spite of the family's connections with
the Percys. As early as August 1461 Edward IV had granted him the
stewardship of the Yorkshire lands of the earl of Northumberland and
Thomas, Lord Ros, at £40 p.a., and land grants, including some of the
Ros lands, followed. Such royal favour helped to ensure that Robert
and his son Sir Marmaduke Constable (d. 1518) were far wealthier and
more influential than their predecessors. Although Marmaduke's gains
in the service of Richard III were transient, by the time of Robert
[iv]'s death in May 1488 the family fortunes had been put on a sound
footing. One measure of their new affluence is the fact that Robert
[iv] was able to make landed provision for all his younger sons:
Robert [v], Philip, William [iv], and Roger. Marmaduke was able to do
the same for his three younger sons, and in addition bequeathed each
of them 100 marks in plate. A generation later the family's prosperity
was to be revealed, and lost, in the forfeitures that followed the
involvement of Marmaduke's son and heir, Sir Robert Constable, in the
Pilgrimage of Grace. The Constable arms were quarterly gules and vair,
over all a bend or.
ROSEMARY HORROX
Sources Chancery records[J. Raine and J. Raine], eds., Testamenta
Eboracensia, 1–4, SurtS, 4, 30, 45, 53 (1836–69) · W. Farrer and
others, eds., Early Yorkshire charters, 12 vols. (1914–65), vol. 12 ·
HoP, Commons, 1386–1421 · J. R. Maddicott, Thomas of Lancaster,
1307–1322: a study in the reign of Edward II (1970) · A. Smith,
‘Litigation and politics: Sir John Fastolf's defence of his English
property', Property and politics, ed. A. J. Pollard (1984), 59–75
Wealth at death over £300 p.a.—Robert Constable; partial evaluation:
CIPM, Henry VII, 1, nos. 363, 366
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
© Oxford University Press 2004 All rights reserved
Rosemary Horrox, ‘Constable family (per. c.1300-1488)', Oxford
Dictionary of National Biography, Oxford University Press, 2004
[accessed 4 Oct 2004: http://www.oxforddnb.com/view/article/52782]
Constable, Sir Marmaduke (1456/7?-1518), soldier and administrator
by Rosemary Horrox
© Oxford University Press 2004 All rights reserved
Constable, Sir Marmaduke (1456/7?-1518), soldier and administrator,
was the son of Sir Robert Constable (1423-1488) of Flamborough,
Yorkshire [see under Constable family (per. c.1300-1488)], and Agnes,
daughter of Sir Roger Wentworth of North Elmsall, Yorkshire, and
Margery, dowager Lady Ros. Marmaduke is described as aged thirty-one
and more at his father's death in May 1488, which would give a birth
date of 1456 or 1457. This fits the circumstances of his career better
than the claim in his epitaph in Flamborough church that he was aged
seventy when he fought at Flodden (1513), which would push his birth
date back by over a decade. Unlike their kinsmen of Barnby by Bossall,
who were Neville associates, the Flamborough Constables followed the
Percys. Sir Robert transferred readily to the service of Edward IV in
1461, but father and son were both retained by Henry Percy, fourth
earl of Northumberland, after his restoration in 1470 and shared the
stewardship of his lands in the East Riding. Marmaduke served under
the earl in the Scottish campaigns of the early 1480s and was knighted
by him beside Berwick in August 1481. According to his epitaph he had
earlier gone with Edward IV into France, presumably in
Northumberland's contingent.
Constable then entered the service of Richard III. He was a knight of
the body by December 1483, when he was one of the king's associates
given forfeited land and office in Kent in the aftermath of
Buckingham's rebellion. Constable's Kentish base was to be the
Stafford honour of Tonbridge, where he was made steward in December
1483 and where the inhabitants were informed in January that the king
had deputed him ‘to make his abode among you' (BL, Harl. MS 4332, fol.
81). However, the king had second thoughts about where Constable would
be most useful and on 28 March granted him all the major duchy of
Lancaster offices in the north midlands, including the constableship
of Tutbury, which became his base. Unlike his predecessor in the
offices, William, Lord Hastings, Constable was explicitly forbidden to
retain the local gentry and was evidently intended to act under
stricter royal control than Hastings, to whom Edward had allowed great
independence of action.
It is not clear whether Constable fought at Bosworth. Perhaps, like
Northumberland, he was present without fighting. He certainly escaped
attainder, and was pardoned on 18 November. By May 1486, when he was
granted the stewardships of Bawtry and Hotham, Yorkshire, he was again
a knight of the body. He succeeded his father in May 1488, having
formerly held Holme on Spalding moor, Yorkshire, and Somerby,
Lincolnshire, which his father had settled on him. In November 1488 he
became sheriff of Yorkshire and thus played a major role in dealing
with the unrest of 1489 in which the earl of Northumberland was
killed. In 1492 he accompanied the king to France and was involved in
the ensuing negotiations which led to the treaty of Étaples. It seems
that after Northumberland's death Constable became associated with
Thomas Howard, earl of Surrey, who was taking an increasing role in
northern affairs. In 1509 Surrey nominated him as a knight of the
Garter, although he was not elected. In 1513 Constable served under
Howard at Flodden, where he commanded the left wing; he received a
letter of thanks from the king.
Constable died on 20 November 1518. His will, made the previous May,
requested that he be buried as soon as his body was cold, ‘without
calling of friends or any other solemnity' (Raine, 91). He had married
twice. With his first wife, Margery, daughter of William, Lord
Fitzhugh, Constable had no children. With his second wife, Joyce, the
daughter of Humphrey Stafford of Grafton, he had four sons (Robert,
who succeeded him, Marmaduke, William, and John) and two daughters.
His second son, Sir Marmaduke Constable (c.1480-1545), soldier,
married Barbara, daughter of Sir John Sotehill of Everingham, by
November 1502, the year in which the Sotehill lands were divided
between her and her sister Mary, the wife of John Normanville, after
the death of their imbecile brother, George. Constable fought under
his father at Flodden and was knighted on the battlefield. He fought
in several later Scottish campaigns, accompanied Henry VIII to the
Field of Cloth of Gold and was a knight of the body by 1533. Unlike
his elder brother Robert he did not support the Pilgrimage of Grace
and his share of the spoils of the dissolution was Drax Priory,
founded by his wife's ancestors. He died on 14 September 1545; his
wife had died on 4 October 1540.
ROSEMARY HORROX
Sources Chancery records · R. Horrox, Richard III, a study of
service, Cambridge Studies in Medieval Life and Thought, 4th ser., 11
(1989) · K. Dockray, ‘Sir Marmaduke Constable of Flamborough', Richard
III: crown and people, ed. J. Petre (1985), 218–23 · [J. Raine], ed.,
Testamenta Eboracensia, 5, SurtS, 79 (1884) · N&Q, 3rd ser., 2 (1862),
208 · HoP, Commons · J. Foster, ed., Pedigrees of the county families
of Yorkshire, 3 (1874)
Archives BL, Harley MS 4332, fol. 81
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
© Oxford University Press 2004 All rights reserved
Rosemary Horrox, ‘Constable, Sir Marmaduke (1456/7?-1518)', Oxford
Dictionary of National Biography, Oxford University Press, 2004
[accessed 4 Oct 2004: http://www.oxforddnb.com/view/article/6108]
Constable, Sir Robert (1478?-1537), rebel
by Christine M. Newman
© Oxford University Press 2004 All rights reserved
Constable, Sir Robert (1478?-1537), rebel, of Flamborough, in the East
Riding of Yorkshire, was probably born in 1478, the eldest of four
sons and two daughters of Sir Marmaduke Constable (1456/7?-1518),
soldier and administrator, and his wife, Joyce, the daughter of Sir
Humphrey Stafford of Grafton, Cheshire. Sir Marmaduke Constable the
younger [see under Constable, Sir Marmaduke (1456/?-1518)] was his
brother. By his marriage to Jane, daughter of Sir William Ingleby of
Ripley, Yorkshire, Constable had three sons and four (or possibly
five) daughters.
Little is known of Constable's early life and education. From his
early career, however, it seems likely that he was trained as a
soldier and retained a preference for the traditional militaristic
pursuits of his class. He was in the royal army which defeated the
Cornish rebels at Blackheath and was knighted on the battlefield on 17
June 1497. In 1511 he took part in the short-lived military expedition
against the Moors led by Thomas Darcy, Baron Darcy, undertaken at the
request of Ferdinand of Spain. Two years later he participated in the
battle of Flodden, alongside his father, brothers, and other kinsmen.
Constable forged increasingly close connections with the court at this
time, where, by 1517, he had been appointed knight of the body.
Upon the death of his father in 1518, Constable succeeded to the
considerable estates centred on the principal family seat of
Flamborough. Thereafter he continued to participate in the
administration of his locality. He was JP and commissioner of array
for the East Riding from the early 1500s until the outbreak of the
Pilgrimage of Grace in 1536. In the early 1530s he was also sworn of
the king's council of the north, which had been newly reconstituted
following the downfall of Cardinal Thomas Wolsey, archbishop of York.
His influence in the region was augmented by his appointment to a
number of stewardships, including those of the crown lordships of
Sheriff Hutton (which he was required to relinquish in 1532) and
Hotham and the Percy lordships of Leconfield and Pocklington, all in
Yorkshire. He was also steward of the Yorkshire liberty of Howden for
Cuthbert Tunstall, bishop of Durham.
By nature Constable was volatile and noted for his ‘dangerous
disposition' (Dodds and Dodds, 1.46). In the early 1520s his feuds
were among those which, within Yorkshire, created much dissension and
he was called to account for his behaviour before Thomas Howard, earl
of Surrey, Henry VIII's lieutenant in the north. In 1525 he obtained a
royal pardon for his ‘riotous' abduction of a royal ward (LP Henry
VIII, 4/1, no. 1115). In the early 1530s, as a result of his
involvement in further disputes, he made several appearances before
the court of Star Chamber. In 1534 Constable's unseemly behaviour led
to calls for his dismissal from the commission of the peace.
The precise motivation behind Constable's rebellious participation in
the Pilgrimage of Grace is not clear. His family had long been tenants
and clients of the earls of Northumberland, who had extensive landed
interests in the East Riding and Constable was a member of the council
of Henry Percy, sixth earl of Northumberland. Percy affinities
undoubtedly played a part in the rebellion and this, to some extent,
may have accounted for Constable's stance. Other factors, such as his
increasing dissatisfaction with the aims of royal government, may also
have played a part. In religious matters, too, he, along with his old
friends Darcy and John Hussey, Baron Hussey, maintained a traditional
stance. In 1534 all three men had agreed upon their aversion towards
heresy and their determination to die as ‘Christian men'.
Whatever his ultimate motivation—and despite his initial reluctance
and claims that he was coerced—Constable was quickly drawn into the
pilgrimage and soon became one of its leaders. He adopted, in the
first instance, a resolutely rebellious stance but subsequently went
on to accept a royal pardon under the terms of the agreement reached
at Doncaster in early December 1536. During Sir Francis Bigod's revolt
in January 1537, Constable strove to stay the commons and maintain
order, in accordance with the December agreement. Nevertheless, the
resurgence of the rebellion provided the crown with the opportunity to
take reprisals against the rebel leaders. Constable, together with
other leading pilgrims, was summoned to London where he was imprisoned
in the Tower of London and subsequently indicted, not for his
activities in the main phase of the rebellion, but for offences
allegedly committed after his pardon. Following his trial and
condemnation, Constable was taken to Hull for execution. On 6 July
1537, he was taken to the town's Beverley Gate and there hanged in
chains.
CHRISTINE M. NEWMAN
Sources LP Henry VIII · M. H. Dodds and R. Dodds, The Pilgrimage of
Grace, 1536–1537, and the Exeter conspiracy, 1538, 2 vols. (1915) · R.
R. Reid, The king's council in the north (1921) · M. Bush, The
Pilgrimage of Grace: a study of the rebel armies of October 1536
(1996) · M. Bush and D. Bownes, The defeat of the Pilgrimage of Grace
(1999) · A. Fletcher, Tudor rebellions, 3rd edn (1983) · W. A. Shaw,
The knights of England, 2 vols. (1906), vol. 2 · HoP, Commons, 1509–58
· [F. W. Dendy and C. H. Hunter Blair], eds., Visitations of the
north, 4 pts, SurtS, 122, 133, 144, 146 (1912–32) · B. English, The
great landowners of east Yorkshire, 1530–1910 (1990) · W. Brown, ed.,
Yorkshire Star Chamber proceedings, 1, Yorkshire Archaeological
Society, 41 (1909) · J. A. Froude, History of England, 2nd edn, 12
vols. (1858–66), vol. 3 · R. W. Hoyle, The Pilgrimage of Grace and the
politics of the 1530s (2001)
Archives BL, family and estate papers, Add. MSS 40132–40137
Wealth at death held fifty-one manors which were forfeited upon
attainder: U. Hull, manuscripts and archives database (catalogue of
Constable, Maxwell, and Sherburne family papers)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
© Oxford University Press 2004 All rights reserved
Christine M. Newman, ‘Constable, Sir Robert (1478?-1537)', Oxford
Dictionary of National Biography, Oxford University Press, 2004
[accessed 4 Oct 2004: http://www.oxforddnb.com/view/article/6110]
Dr Horrox is at Fitzwilliam College Cambridge and her email is
reh37@cam.ac.uk - she has done a lot of work on Hull and the families
that have made the East Riding - could I suggest a contact to her may
help - I'm happy to go ahead if you like - but perhaps if any of you
have questions, then please email me privately with them - we don't
want to bombard her with lots of separate emails at the beginning of
an academic year.
Cheers
David
-
Gjest
Re: Thomas de Thweng (d. 1374) and the Constables of Flambor
Monday, 4 October, 2004
Dear David, et al.,
Thanks for those large extracts and contributions to the Constable
conundrum (better, conundra). For your ready review, I am sending along
an 11-generation pedigree (details and notes stripped due to size) for
your review, which lays out the Constables of Flamborough as I now have
them down to Sir Marmaduke of Flamborough (d bef Aug 5 1404) and his
siblings. I will send a separate post giving what I have to date on the
Constables of Halsham.
Besides those spouses yet unidentified, the following are issues that
deserve further study and resolution:
1. Juliana de Deyvill, wife of William le Constable (of Flamborough)
may in fact have been a daughter of John de Deyvill [currently
shown as her brother] by his wife Maud de Percy. The chronology
needs fine-tuning, but does not exclude this possibility at
present; further, Juliana had sons named John (possibly for a
grandfather, John de Deyvill) and Henry (a Percy name).
2. The Thweng connection, which I theorize most likely involved
the unnamed wife of Sir William le Constable (d. aft 26 April
1319), mother of the Robert le Constable named in the charter
of Thomas de Thweng for a chantry at Kirkleatham (1348). This
differs from the theory in EYC (replicated in the account of
Rosemary Horrox) involving Robert's wife Katherine.
Cheers,
John *
_______________________________________
1 William fitz Nigel, constable of Chester
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1130
Spouse: Adeliz
Death: bef 1130
Children: Agnes, m. Eustace fitz John
Matilda, m. Albert [de] Grelley
William (-<1139)
1.1 Agnes 'filia Willelmi'
----------------------------------------
Spouse: Eustace fitz John
Death: 1157
Father: John fitz Richard
Children: Richard fitz Eustace [ancestor of constables of Chester]
1.2 Matilda 'filia Willelmi'
----------------------------------------
1.3 William fitz William of Halton, constable of Chester
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1139, d.s.p.l.
mistress: NN [NOT MARRIED]
Children: Roger
Robert fitz William (->1184)
1.3.1 Roger fitz William
----------------------------------------
1.3.2 Robert fitz William le Constable, of Holme upon Spaldingmore [dju]
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 1184
illegitimate son
Spouse: NN Tison
Father: William Tison, of Swinton and Holme upon Spaldingmore (-<1181)
Mother: Alice
Children: Robert (-<1208)
1.3.2.1 Robert le Constable, of Flamborough and Holme upon Spaldingmore
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1208
Spouse: Eufemia
Father: NN
Mother: Maud Arundel, dau. of William Arundel of Foston and Nafferton
Children: William
1.3.2.1.1 William le Constable, of Flamborough and Holme
----------------------------------------
Spouse: Juliana de Daiville
Death: aft 1266
Father: Robert de Daiville (-<1201)
Mother: Juliana de Montfort (->1202)
Children: Robert (-<1272)
Sir Richard, of Holme(->1258)
John, rector of Egmanton, co. Notts.
Henry, of Sewerby, co. Yorks.
Theobald
1.3.2.1.1.1 Robert le Constable, of Flamborough and Holme
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1272
Spouse: Agnes
Children: Sir William (->1319)
John, rector of Holme
Robert, of Holme, co. Yorks.
Lettice, m. Thomas de Houton
1.3.2.1.1.1.1 Sir William le Constable
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 26 Apr 1319
Children: Alice (->1302)
Sir Robert (->1336)
1.3.2.1.1.1.1.1 Alice le Constable
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 1302
1.3.2.1.1.1.1.2 Sir Robert le Constable, of Flamborough and Holme
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 8 Dec 1336
Spouse: Katherine
Death: bef 19 Mar 1376
Children: Sir William (->1329)
Katherine (->1347)
Sir Marmaduke (-1378)
1.3.2.1.1.1.1.2.1 Sir William le Constable
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 12 Jun 1329, d.v.p.
1.3.2.1.1.1.1.2.2 Katherine le Constable
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 1347
1.3.2.1.1.1.1.2.3a Sir Marmaduke le Constable, of Flamborough and Holme
----------------------------------------
Death: 1 Jun 1378
Spouse: Joan la Zouche
Death: bef 1376
Father: Sir Roger la Zouche of Lubbesthrope, co. Leics. (ca1292->1349)
Mother: Felicia
Children: Sir Robert (~1353-<1400)
Other Spouses Elizabeth [2nd wife]
1.3.2.1.1.1.1.2.3a.1 Sir Robert Constable, of Flamborough and Holme
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 8 Jan 1400
Spouse: Margaret Skipwith
Death: aft Jan 1401
Father: William Skipwith (-<1370)
Mother: NN
Marr: bef Jan 1384
Children: Marmaduke, of Flamborough and Holme (-<1404)
Joan, m. Sir Robert Hilton of Swine and Winestead (-<1432)
Robert (->1432)
Elizabeth, nun, of Swine priory
* John P. Ravilious
Dear David, et al.,
Thanks for those large extracts and contributions to the Constable
conundrum (better, conundra). For your ready review, I am sending along
an 11-generation pedigree (details and notes stripped due to size) for
your review, which lays out the Constables of Flamborough as I now have
them down to Sir Marmaduke of Flamborough (d bef Aug 5 1404) and his
siblings. I will send a separate post giving what I have to date on the
Constables of Halsham.
Besides those spouses yet unidentified, the following are issues that
deserve further study and resolution:
1. Juliana de Deyvill, wife of William le Constable (of Flamborough)
may in fact have been a daughter of John de Deyvill [currently
shown as her brother] by his wife Maud de Percy. The chronology
needs fine-tuning, but does not exclude this possibility at
present; further, Juliana had sons named John (possibly for a
grandfather, John de Deyvill) and Henry (a Percy name).
2. The Thweng connection, which I theorize most likely involved
the unnamed wife of Sir William le Constable (d. aft 26 April
1319), mother of the Robert le Constable named in the charter
of Thomas de Thweng for a chantry at Kirkleatham (1348). This
differs from the theory in EYC (replicated in the account of
Rosemary Horrox) involving Robert's wife Katherine.
Cheers,
John *
_______________________________________
1 William fitz Nigel, constable of Chester
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1130
Spouse: Adeliz
Death: bef 1130
Children: Agnes, m. Eustace fitz John
Matilda, m. Albert [de] Grelley
William (-<1139)
1.1 Agnes 'filia Willelmi'
----------------------------------------
Spouse: Eustace fitz John
Death: 1157
Father: John fitz Richard
Children: Richard fitz Eustace [ancestor of constables of Chester]
1.2 Matilda 'filia Willelmi'
----------------------------------------
1.3 William fitz William of Halton, constable of Chester
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1139, d.s.p.l.
mistress: NN [NOT MARRIED]
Children: Roger
Robert fitz William (->1184)
1.3.1 Roger fitz William
----------------------------------------
1.3.2 Robert fitz William le Constable, of Holme upon Spaldingmore [dju]
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 1184
illegitimate son
Spouse: NN Tison
Father: William Tison, of Swinton and Holme upon Spaldingmore (-<1181)
Mother: Alice
Children: Robert (-<1208)
1.3.2.1 Robert le Constable, of Flamborough and Holme upon Spaldingmore
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1208
Spouse: Eufemia
Father: NN
Mother: Maud Arundel, dau. of William Arundel of Foston and Nafferton
Children: William
1.3.2.1.1 William le Constable, of Flamborough and Holme
----------------------------------------
Spouse: Juliana de Daiville
Death: aft 1266
Father: Robert de Daiville (-<1201)
Mother: Juliana de Montfort (->1202)
Children: Robert (-<1272)
Sir Richard, of Holme(->1258)
John, rector of Egmanton, co. Notts.
Henry, of Sewerby, co. Yorks.
Theobald
1.3.2.1.1.1 Robert le Constable, of Flamborough and Holme
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1272
Spouse: Agnes
Children: Sir William (->1319)
John, rector of Holme
Robert, of Holme, co. Yorks.
Lettice, m. Thomas de Houton
1.3.2.1.1.1.1 Sir William le Constable
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 26 Apr 1319
Children: Alice (->1302)
Sir Robert (->1336)
1.3.2.1.1.1.1.1 Alice le Constable
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 1302
1.3.2.1.1.1.1.2 Sir Robert le Constable, of Flamborough and Holme
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 8 Dec 1336
Spouse: Katherine
Death: bef 19 Mar 1376
Children: Sir William (->1329)
Katherine (->1347)
Sir Marmaduke (-1378)
1.3.2.1.1.1.1.2.1 Sir William le Constable
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 12 Jun 1329, d.v.p.
1.3.2.1.1.1.1.2.2 Katherine le Constable
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 1347
1.3.2.1.1.1.1.2.3a Sir Marmaduke le Constable, of Flamborough and Holme
----------------------------------------
Death: 1 Jun 1378
Spouse: Joan la Zouche
Death: bef 1376
Father: Sir Roger la Zouche of Lubbesthrope, co. Leics. (ca1292->1349)
Mother: Felicia
Children: Sir Robert (~1353-<1400)
Other Spouses Elizabeth [2nd wife]
1.3.2.1.1.1.1.2.3a.1 Sir Robert Constable, of Flamborough and Holme
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 8 Jan 1400
Spouse: Margaret Skipwith
Death: aft Jan 1401
Father: William Skipwith (-<1370)
Mother: NN
Marr: bef Jan 1384
Children: Marmaduke, of Flamborough and Holme (-<1404)
Joan, m. Sir Robert Hilton of Swine and Winestead (-<1432)
Robert (->1432)
Elizabeth, nun, of Swine priory
* John P. Ravilious
-
Gjest
Re: Thomas de Thweng (d. 1374) and the Constables of Flambor
Monday, 4 October, 2004
Dear David, et al.,
Following is the limited data I've compiled to data for the
Constables of Halsham. You'll note among the instances for potential
confusion, in the 5th generation we have John Constable of Halsham
marrying Maud, a daughter of Sir Robert Hilton of Swine and Holderness.
Her brother Sir Robert married Joan, daughter of Sir Robert le Constable
of Flamborough (d. bef 8 Jan 1400/01).
~ Add to this, Sir Robert and Maud had a sister Denise, married
to Sir William Hilton of Hilton.......
Cheers,
John
1 William le Constable
----------------------------------------
Spouse: Cecily de Thweng
Father: Marmaduke de Thweng, of Legsby and Thwing (->1234)
Marr: ca 29 Sep 1227
Children: William
Sir Simon (-<1294)
1.1 William le Constable, fl. 1258
----------------------------------------
1.2 Sir Simon le Constable, of Halsham in Holderness
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1 Mar 1294
' William son of William the Constable and Simon his brother', witness
(together with Lord William de Fort [...], Earl of Albemarle, Sir Simon
de Ver, Sir Fulk the Constable, Sir Godfrey de Melsa, Sir Ralph de
Wellewyk, Sir John de Frysmarays, Walter de Faucunberg, Robert de Scurs,
William son of Peter de la Twyer, Simon de Preston, Walter de Pykering,
William son of William the Constable and Simon his brother) to a
Confirmation in frankalmoign by William the Constable (son of Robert)
to Meaux Abbey property: all lands and tenements given to the Abbey by
Robert the Constable senr. in Tarlesthorp, including his manor of
Tarlesthorp, 'as in his charter', 1258 [PRO, East Riding of Yorkshire
Archives and Records Service: Chichester-Constable Family
[DDCC/51 - DDCC/110] , DDCC/93/1- ref. to Early Yorkshire Charters
Vol III. p. 79. 1364.]
Children: Robert
1.2.1a Robert le Constable, of Halsham in Holderness
----------------------------------------
Spouse: Avice de Lascelles [2nd wife]
Death: aft 9 May 1356
Father: Roger de Lascelles, Mauby and Kirby Knowle, co. York (-ca1300)
Mother: Elizabeth (-<1323)
Marr: aft 19 Apr 1282
1.2.1b Robert le Constable* (See above)
----------------------------------------
Spouse: NN [1st wife]
Children: John (-1349)
1.2.1b.1 John le Constable, of Halsham in Holderness
----------------------------------------
Death: 1349
' Defeasance of Acknowledgement before the King's justices at York by
Sir Robert son of Simon le Constable de Holdernesse, ('Mon. after
quindene St. Martin 2 Ed. I - i.e. 27 Nov. 1273) that he owes his son
John £2,000 of silver and has granted to him an annual rent of £100 of
silver from his manors of Halsham and Burton Constable and his
property in Tharlsthorp Otryngham, Kaynham, Paghel and Paghelholm.
(Defeasable on condition Sir R. does not alienate anything from
inheritance of J? - Incomplete). Witn. Sir Robert de Hilton, Sir
Walter de Fawcumberge, Sir William de la Towers, John de Surderal,
Herbert de Flynton, John son of Thomas Glocestre, Walter de Waldegrave,
Robert de Wythornwyk.' - PRO, East Riding of Yorkshire Archives and
Records Service: Chichester-Constable Family [DDCC/111 - DDCC/135] ,
"Records and Deeds mentioned in the large Pedigree of the Constables" :
DDCC/135/51, No. 26
Children: John (-<1408)
1.2.1b.1.1 John Constable, of Halsham in Holderness
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 28 Jan 1408
beneficiary of quitclaim dated 23 Apr. 1379 (witnessed by his
brother-in-law, Sir Robert de Hilton):
' Sir Thomas of Meaux to Sir John Constable of Halsham property manor
of Esthalsham sometime of Sir John of Meaux son and heir of Sir Godfrey
of Meaux dec'd. with appurtenances in Esthalsham and Rymeswell
Witn. Sir Ralph of Haistynges, Sir Thomas of Sutton, Sir Robert of
Hilton, Sir John Wygood, Sir Walter Faucomberge. Given at Halsham, St.
George the martyr 2 Ric. II.' [PRO, East Riding of Yorkshire Archives
and Records Service: Chichester-Constable Family [DDCC/136 - DDCC2/G],
DDCC/141/68/p1/a ]
Spouse: Maud Hilton
Death: aft 28 Jan 1408
Father: Sir Robert Hilton of Swine and Holderness(-<1400)
Mother: Isabel
Children: Thomas
Sir William
1.2.1b.1.1.1 Thomas Constable
----------------------------------------
1.2.1b.1.1.2 Sir William Constable
----------------------------------------
Grant dated 28 Jan. 1408/9
' Sir William Constable to his uncle Sir Robert Hilton, his relative
Sir Robert of Hilton, his brother Thomas Constable, John of Holme and
John Grene property all his property in Tharlesthorpe Otringham,
Kayingham, Halsham, Pauleholme, Paule, Dodyngton, and Hedon; and
reversion of all property held by his mother Lady Matilda Conesstable
and of all property held of him for terms of lives
Witn. Sir Robert Twier, Sir John of Routh, Sir Stephen of Thorp,
Master Anthony of St. Quintin rector of Hornse, Master William of
Retherby rector of Wynested, John Pigot rector of Rosse; John Disney,
Ralph of Lellay, James of Hedon, John of Croft and John Arnald esqs.
Given at Halsham. ' [PRO, East Riding of Yorkshire Archives and Records
Service: Chichester-Constable Family [DDCC/136 - DDCC2/G],
DDCC/141/68/p5/a ]
Spouse: Elizabeth Metham
Dear David, et al.,
Following is the limited data I've compiled to data for the
Constables of Halsham. You'll note among the instances for potential
confusion, in the 5th generation we have John Constable of Halsham
marrying Maud, a daughter of Sir Robert Hilton of Swine and Holderness.
Her brother Sir Robert married Joan, daughter of Sir Robert le Constable
of Flamborough (d. bef 8 Jan 1400/01).
~ Add to this, Sir Robert and Maud had a sister Denise, married
to Sir William Hilton of Hilton.......
Cheers,
John
1 William le Constable
----------------------------------------
Spouse: Cecily de Thweng
Father: Marmaduke de Thweng, of Legsby and Thwing (->1234)
Marr: ca 29 Sep 1227
Children: William
Sir Simon (-<1294)
1.1 William le Constable, fl. 1258
----------------------------------------
1.2 Sir Simon le Constable, of Halsham in Holderness
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1 Mar 1294
' William son of William the Constable and Simon his brother', witness
(together with Lord William de Fort [...], Earl of Albemarle, Sir Simon
de Ver, Sir Fulk the Constable, Sir Godfrey de Melsa, Sir Ralph de
Wellewyk, Sir John de Frysmarays, Walter de Faucunberg, Robert de Scurs,
William son of Peter de la Twyer, Simon de Preston, Walter de Pykering,
William son of William the Constable and Simon his brother) to a
Confirmation in frankalmoign by William the Constable (son of Robert)
to Meaux Abbey property: all lands and tenements given to the Abbey by
Robert the Constable senr. in Tarlesthorp, including his manor of
Tarlesthorp, 'as in his charter', 1258 [PRO, East Riding of Yorkshire
Archives and Records Service: Chichester-Constable Family
[DDCC/51 - DDCC/110] , DDCC/93/1- ref. to Early Yorkshire Charters
Vol III. p. 79. 1364.]
Children: Robert
1.2.1a Robert le Constable, of Halsham in Holderness
----------------------------------------
Spouse: Avice de Lascelles [2nd wife]
Death: aft 9 May 1356
Father: Roger de Lascelles, Mauby and Kirby Knowle, co. York (-ca1300)
Mother: Elizabeth (-<1323)
Marr: aft 19 Apr 1282
1.2.1b Robert le Constable* (See above)
----------------------------------------
Spouse: NN [1st wife]
Children: John (-1349)
1.2.1b.1 John le Constable, of Halsham in Holderness
----------------------------------------
Death: 1349
' Defeasance of Acknowledgement before the King's justices at York by
Sir Robert son of Simon le Constable de Holdernesse, ('Mon. after
quindene St. Martin 2 Ed. I - i.e. 27 Nov. 1273) that he owes his son
John £2,000 of silver and has granted to him an annual rent of £100 of
silver from his manors of Halsham and Burton Constable and his
property in Tharlsthorp Otryngham, Kaynham, Paghel and Paghelholm.
(Defeasable on condition Sir R. does not alienate anything from
inheritance of J? - Incomplete). Witn. Sir Robert de Hilton, Sir
Walter de Fawcumberge, Sir William de la Towers, John de Surderal,
Herbert de Flynton, John son of Thomas Glocestre, Walter de Waldegrave,
Robert de Wythornwyk.' - PRO, East Riding of Yorkshire Archives and
Records Service: Chichester-Constable Family [DDCC/111 - DDCC/135] ,
"Records and Deeds mentioned in the large Pedigree of the Constables" :
DDCC/135/51, No. 26
Children: John (-<1408)
1.2.1b.1.1 John Constable, of Halsham in Holderness
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 28 Jan 1408
beneficiary of quitclaim dated 23 Apr. 1379 (witnessed by his
brother-in-law, Sir Robert de Hilton):
' Sir Thomas of Meaux to Sir John Constable of Halsham property manor
of Esthalsham sometime of Sir John of Meaux son and heir of Sir Godfrey
of Meaux dec'd. with appurtenances in Esthalsham and Rymeswell
Witn. Sir Ralph of Haistynges, Sir Thomas of Sutton, Sir Robert of
Hilton, Sir John Wygood, Sir Walter Faucomberge. Given at Halsham, St.
George the martyr 2 Ric. II.' [PRO, East Riding of Yorkshire Archives
and Records Service: Chichester-Constable Family [DDCC/136 - DDCC2/G],
DDCC/141/68/p1/a ]
Spouse: Maud Hilton
Death: aft 28 Jan 1408
Father: Sir Robert Hilton of Swine and Holderness(-<1400)
Mother: Isabel
Children: Thomas
Sir William
1.2.1b.1.1.1 Thomas Constable
----------------------------------------
1.2.1b.1.1.2 Sir William Constable
----------------------------------------
Grant dated 28 Jan. 1408/9
' Sir William Constable to his uncle Sir Robert Hilton, his relative
Sir Robert of Hilton, his brother Thomas Constable, John of Holme and
John Grene property all his property in Tharlesthorpe Otringham,
Kayingham, Halsham, Pauleholme, Paule, Dodyngton, and Hedon; and
reversion of all property held by his mother Lady Matilda Conesstable
and of all property held of him for terms of lives
Witn. Sir Robert Twier, Sir John of Routh, Sir Stephen of Thorp,
Master Anthony of St. Quintin rector of Hornse, Master William of
Retherby rector of Wynested, John Pigot rector of Rosse; John Disney,
Ralph of Lellay, James of Hedon, John of Croft and John Arnald esqs.
Given at Halsham. ' [PRO, East Riding of Yorkshire Archives and Records
Service: Chichester-Constable Family [DDCC/136 - DDCC2/G],
DDCC/141/68/p5/a ]
Spouse: Elizabeth Metham
-
David Hepworth
Re: Thomas de Thweng (d. 1374) and the Constables of Flambor
Dear John and all
A friend of mine who is also looking at the Thweng and Daiville
families has just sent me this post - could I ask you to look at it
(as I am doing) and let me have your thoughts?
"On the 119161 message (Constable Connection-Juliana de Eyvil) there
is some great info put in by John. Do you think that the
identification of Juliana de Eyvil has the daughter of Robert de Eyvil
of Egmanton d 1201 is realistic though? That would mean she was born
before 1201 which would make her in her seventies in the deeds from
c1270? She is named as the wife of William le Constable and the mother
of Robert le Constable. Robert is purported to have been born in 1245
although some sources give 1248/49? She would have had to have been
nearing fifty when she had Robert and that is old today to have
children never mind in the medieval period. Her brother would be John
de Eyvil who died at the end of the 1220's, Juliana is still alive and
active 40 years later? Seems highly unlikely if not remote to me?
I would put forward a better identification of Juliana as being the
sister of Robert de Eyvil of Egmanton, father of the Ely John de Eyvil
or possibly she could even have been an older sister of John de Eyvil
(Ely) himself?
John de Eyvil was in trouble as a minor in 1248/9 for trespassing on
the manor of William de Vescy at North Anston. Not sure how old a
minor would have been in those days but say 13/14 years old (is that
reasonable?). This gives a birthdate of John of c1235. An older sister
could have been born in the late 1220's to 1230 and would be the about
the correct age to marry William Constable and have a child by from
1245, and even 1243 possibly. Other than death a possibility is that
Cecily Tweng could not provide William with any children/an heir and
he possibly divorced her to marry Juliana Deyvil?
Alternatively, Juliana could be the sister of Robert de Eyvil of
Egmanton, father of rebel John. He died didn't he sometime around late
1240's/1250? Juliana would have had to have outlived him by many years
which makes you wonder if she is of the same generation of Robert?
I noticed as well that one of the posts says that Robert de Eyvil's
holding at Langford was not inherited by John de Eyvil? I think this
may be incorrect as well. John de Eyvil had his manor of Langford
seized in 1265. I will dig out the entry and send you it next time.
Regards
Rob. "
I will ask Rob to join this group as well.
Thanks and best wishes
David
Therav3@aol.com wrote in message news:<1e4.2b90ab7b.2e9298bf@aol.com>...
A friend of mine who is also looking at the Thweng and Daiville
families has just sent me this post - could I ask you to look at it
(as I am doing) and let me have your thoughts?
"On the 119161 message (Constable Connection-Juliana de Eyvil) there
is some great info put in by John. Do you think that the
identification of Juliana de Eyvil has the daughter of Robert de Eyvil
of Egmanton d 1201 is realistic though? That would mean she was born
before 1201 which would make her in her seventies in the deeds from
c1270? She is named as the wife of William le Constable and the mother
of Robert le Constable. Robert is purported to have been born in 1245
although some sources give 1248/49? She would have had to have been
nearing fifty when she had Robert and that is old today to have
children never mind in the medieval period. Her brother would be John
de Eyvil who died at the end of the 1220's, Juliana is still alive and
active 40 years later? Seems highly unlikely if not remote to me?
I would put forward a better identification of Juliana as being the
sister of Robert de Eyvil of Egmanton, father of the Ely John de Eyvil
or possibly she could even have been an older sister of John de Eyvil
(Ely) himself?
John de Eyvil was in trouble as a minor in 1248/9 for trespassing on
the manor of William de Vescy at North Anston. Not sure how old a
minor would have been in those days but say 13/14 years old (is that
reasonable?). This gives a birthdate of John of c1235. An older sister
could have been born in the late 1220's to 1230 and would be the about
the correct age to marry William Constable and have a child by from
1245, and even 1243 possibly. Other than death a possibility is that
Cecily Tweng could not provide William with any children/an heir and
he possibly divorced her to marry Juliana Deyvil?
Alternatively, Juliana could be the sister of Robert de Eyvil of
Egmanton, father of rebel John. He died didn't he sometime around late
1240's/1250? Juliana would have had to have outlived him by many years
which makes you wonder if she is of the same generation of Robert?
I noticed as well that one of the posts says that Robert de Eyvil's
holding at Langford was not inherited by John de Eyvil? I think this
may be incorrect as well. John de Eyvil had his manor of Langford
seized in 1265. I will dig out the entry and send you it next time.
Regards
Rob. "
I will ask Rob to join this group as well.
Thanks and best wishes
David
Therav3@aol.com wrote in message news:<1e4.2b90ab7b.2e9298bf@aol.com>...
Monday, 4 October, 2004
Dear David, et al.,
Following is the limited data I've compiled to data for the
Constables of Halsham. You'll note among the instances for potential
confusion, in the 5th generation we have John Constable of Halsham
marrying Maud, a daughter of Sir Robert Hilton of Swine and Holderness.
Her brother Sir Robert married Joan, daughter of Sir Robert le Constable
of Flamborough (d. bef 8 Jan 1400/01).
~ Add to this, Sir Robert and Maud had a sister Denise, married
to Sir William Hilton of Hilton.......
Cheers,
John
1 William le Constable
----------------------------------------
Spouse: Cecily de Thweng
Father: Marmaduke de Thweng, of Legsby and Thwing (->1234)
Marr: ca 29 Sep 1227
Children: William
Sir Simon (-<1294)
1.1 William le Constable, fl. 1258
----------------------------------------
1.2 Sir Simon le Constable, of Halsham in Holderness
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1 Mar 1294
' William son of William the Constable and Simon his brother', witness
(together with Lord William de Fort [...], Earl of Albemarle, Sir Simon
de Ver, Sir Fulk the Constable, Sir Godfrey de Melsa, Sir Ralph de
Wellewyk, Sir John de Frysmarays, Walter de Faucunberg, Robert de Scurs,
William son of Peter de la Twyer, Simon de Preston, Walter de Pykering,
William son of William the Constable and Simon his brother) to a
Confirmation in frankalmoign by William the Constable (son of Robert)
to Meaux Abbey property: all lands and tenements given to the Abbey by
Robert the Constable senr. in Tarlesthorp, including his manor of
Tarlesthorp, 'as in his charter', 1258 [PRO, East Riding of Yorkshire
Archives and Records Service: Chichester-Constable Family
[DDCC/51 - DDCC/110] , DDCC/93/1- ref. to Early Yorkshire Charters
Vol III. p. 79. 1364.]
Children: Robert
1.2.1a Robert le Constable, of Halsham in Holderness
----------------------------------------
Spouse: Avice de Lascelles [2nd wife]
Death: aft 9 May 1356
Father: Roger de Lascelles, Mauby and Kirby Knowle, co. York (-ca1300)
Mother: Elizabeth (-<1323)
Marr: aft 19 Apr 1282
1.2.1b Robert le Constable* (See above)
----------------------------------------
Spouse: NN [1st wife]
Children: John (-1349)
1.2.1b.1 John le Constable, of Halsham in Holderness
----------------------------------------
Death: 1349
' Defeasance of Acknowledgement before the King's justices at York by
Sir Robert son of Simon le Constable de Holdernesse, ('Mon. after
quindene St. Martin 2 Ed. I - i.e. 27 Nov. 1273) that he owes his son
John £2,000 of silver and has granted to him an annual rent of £100 of
silver from his manors of Halsham and Burton Constable and his
property in Tharlsthorp Otryngham, Kaynham, Paghel and Paghelholm.
(Defeasable on condition Sir R. does not alienate anything from
inheritance of J? - Incomplete). Witn. Sir Robert de Hilton, Sir
Walter de Fawcumberge, Sir William de la Towers, John de Surderal,
Herbert de Flynton, John son of Thomas Glocestre, Walter de Waldegrave,
Robert de Wythornwyk.' - PRO, East Riding of Yorkshire Archives and
Records Service: Chichester-Constable Family [DDCC/111 - DDCC/135] ,
"Records and Deeds mentioned in the large Pedigree of the Constables" :
DDCC/135/51, No. 26
Children: John (-<1408)
1.2.1b.1.1 John Constable, of Halsham in Holderness
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 28 Jan 1408
beneficiary of quitclaim dated 23 Apr. 1379 (witnessed by his
brother-in-law, Sir Robert de Hilton):
' Sir Thomas of Meaux to Sir John Constable of Halsham property manor
of Esthalsham sometime of Sir John of Meaux son and heir of Sir Godfrey
of Meaux dec'd. with appurtenances in Esthalsham and Rymeswell
Witn. Sir Ralph of Haistynges, Sir Thomas of Sutton, Sir Robert of
Hilton, Sir John Wygood, Sir Walter Faucomberge. Given at Halsham, St.
George the martyr 2 Ric. II.' [PRO, East Riding of Yorkshire Archives
and Records Service: Chichester-Constable Family [DDCC/136 - DDCC2/G],
DDCC/141/68/p1/a ]
Spouse: Maud Hilton
Death: aft 28 Jan 1408
Father: Sir Robert Hilton of Swine and Holderness(-<1400)
Mother: Isabel
Children: Thomas
Sir William
1.2.1b.1.1.1 Thomas Constable
----------------------------------------
1.2.1b.1.1.2 Sir William Constable
----------------------------------------
Grant dated 28 Jan. 1408/9
' Sir William Constable to his uncle Sir Robert Hilton, his relative
Sir Robert of Hilton, his brother Thomas Constable, John of Holme and
John Grene property all his property in Tharlesthorpe Otringham,
Kayingham, Halsham, Pauleholme, Paule, Dodyngton, and Hedon; and
reversion of all property held by his mother Lady Matilda Conesstable
and of all property held of him for terms of lives
Witn. Sir Robert Twier, Sir John of Routh, Sir Stephen of Thorp,
Master Anthony of St. Quintin rector of Hornse, Master William of
Retherby rector of Wynested, John Pigot rector of Rosse; John Disney,
Ralph of Lellay, James of Hedon, John of Croft and John Arnald esqs.
Given at Halsham. ' [PRO, East Riding of Yorkshire Archives and Records
Service: Chichester-Constable Family [DDCC/136 - DDCC2/G],
DDCC/141/68/p5/a ]
Spouse: Elizabeth Metham
-
Gjest
Re: Thomas de Thweng (d. 1374) and the Constables of Flambor
Wednesday, 6 October, 2004
Dear David, Rob, et al.,
One of the problems we have with the early Constables in
particularly is partial chronology: we often have no fix as to a
solid death date, and no birth dates at all.
I am inclined to believe that Juliana (Deyvill) le Constable
was a daughter of John de Daiville and Maud de Percy. This is
based (I think I mentioned this before) on simple onomastics, with
the 'new' Constable names found amongst Juliana's progeny (John,
Henry, Richard) having ready near sources in the family of John de
Daiville and Maud de Percy: if this later placement was correct,
these sons of Juliana would then have been named for the children's
maternal grandfather, maternal great-uncle (Henry de Percy, d. ca.
1198) and maternal great-uncle (Richard de Percy of Catton, the
Magna Carta surety).
Again, however, since we have no solid chronology, I have not
been able to rule out Juliana as a daughter of Robert de Daiville
and Juliana de Montfort (and therefore sister of John, husband of
Maud de Percy). As to Robert le Constable, son of Juliana
(Deyvill) le Constable, I'm not sure where the theory he was born
ca. 1245 emanates from. The evidence I've presented so far
indicates he was born no later than 1232, and likely during a
loose period of "say" 1212-1232:
1. He was a knight, as recorded 22 April 1246 and 30 Sept 1251
[Early Yorkshire Charters XII:147].
2. ' Between 1231 and 1249 Agnes of Newton, daughter of Otes
of Flamborough, gave 2 1/2 bovates to Robert the Constable.'
[VCH Yorks., II:155, cites E.R.R.O., DDCC/App.A/p. 46,
no. 2]
This gives us no good basis on which to estimate his mother
Juliana's birthdate: with the above estimate for Robert, I'd give
Juliana an approximate birth range of "say 1182-1217", which could
place her as a younger child of Robert and Juliana (de Montfort)
De Daiville, or an older child of John and Maud (de Percy) de
Daiville.
Anyone with a firmer grasp on this, please chime in.
Cheers,
John
Dear David, Rob, et al.,
One of the problems we have with the early Constables in
particularly is partial chronology: we often have no fix as to a
solid death date, and no birth dates at all.
I am inclined to believe that Juliana (Deyvill) le Constable
was a daughter of John de Daiville and Maud de Percy. This is
based (I think I mentioned this before) on simple onomastics, with
the 'new' Constable names found amongst Juliana's progeny (John,
Henry, Richard) having ready near sources in the family of John de
Daiville and Maud de Percy: if this later placement was correct,
these sons of Juliana would then have been named for the children's
maternal grandfather, maternal great-uncle (Henry de Percy, d. ca.
1198) and maternal great-uncle (Richard de Percy of Catton, the
Magna Carta surety).
Again, however, since we have no solid chronology, I have not
been able to rule out Juliana as a daughter of Robert de Daiville
and Juliana de Montfort (and therefore sister of John, husband of
Maud de Percy). As to Robert le Constable, son of Juliana
(Deyvill) le Constable, I'm not sure where the theory he was born
ca. 1245 emanates from. The evidence I've presented so far
indicates he was born no later than 1232, and likely during a
loose period of "say" 1212-1232:
1. He was a knight, as recorded 22 April 1246 and 30 Sept 1251
[Early Yorkshire Charters XII:147].
2. ' Between 1231 and 1249 Agnes of Newton, daughter of Otes
of Flamborough, gave 2 1/2 bovates to Robert the Constable.'
[VCH Yorks., II:155, cites E.R.R.O., DDCC/App.A/p. 46,
no. 2]
This gives us no good basis on which to estimate his mother
Juliana's birthdate: with the above estimate for Robert, I'd give
Juliana an approximate birth range of "say 1182-1217", which could
place her as a younger child of Robert and Juliana (de Montfort)
De Daiville, or an older child of John and Maud (de Percy) de
Daiville.
Anyone with a firmer grasp on this, please chime in.
Cheers,
John