I was pouring over M. Marek's file on the Bosonides of Provence
(http://genealogy.euweb.cz/french/boson.html) and am really confused.
It has Emma, daughter of Rotbald (died circa 950) married to a
"Guillaume III de Toulouse, Cte d'Arles". This Guillaume was to die in
994. The problem I have is that I can't place him anywhere, nor can I
come up with a lineage for him. He certainly wasn't the count of
Toulouse, who died in 1037. Can anyone direct me to an answer to this
puzzle?
query about one Emma of Provence and a certain William of To
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Peter Stewart
Re: query about one Emma of Provence and a certain William o
Adalbertus Magnus wrote:
This is the wrong Rotbald - Emma who became countess of Toulouse was the
daughter of Marquis Rotbald who was still living in 1008 & died perhaps
before 25 August 1011, definitely before 22 April 1015 (his paternal
grandfather & namesake died apparently in or before 942).
Emma was the second wife of Guilhem III, count of Toulouse (died
September 1037) and mother of his son & heir Pons Guilhem.
Peter Stewart
I was pouring over M. Marek's file on the Bosonides of Provence
(http://genealogy.euweb.cz/french/boson.html) and am really confused.
It has Emma, daughter of Rotbald (died circa 950) married to a
"Guillaume III de Toulouse, Cte d'Arles". This Guillaume was to die in
994. The problem I have is that I can't place him anywhere, nor can I
come up with a lineage for him. He certainly wasn't the count of
Toulouse, who died in 1037. Can anyone direct me to an answer to this
puzzle?
This is the wrong Rotbald - Emma who became countess of Toulouse was the
daughter of Marquis Rotbald who was still living in 1008 & died perhaps
before 25 August 1011, definitely before 22 April 1015 (his paternal
grandfather & namesake died apparently in or before 942).
Emma was the second wife of Guilhem III, count of Toulouse (died
September 1037) and mother of his son & heir Pons Guilhem.
Peter Stewart
-
Adalbertus Magnus
Re: query about one Emma of Provence and a certain William o
Peter Stewart <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message news:<uTSXc.10513$D7.9707@news-server.bigpond.net.au>...
Well, then this just adds to the confusion. Genealogics has Emma's
father lineage as: Rotbald III, ct o'Provence--> Rotbald II, ct
o'Provence--> Boso II, ct of Avignon and Arles [French accent
included], so in conflict by what is given by Mr. Stewart as Rotbald's
paternal grandfather is Boso, not Rotbald.
-AM
Adalbertus Magnus wrote:
I was pouring over M. Marek's file on the Bosonides of Provence
(http://genealogy.euweb.cz/french/boson.html) and am really confused.
It has Emma, daughter of Rotbald (died circa 950) married to a
"Guillaume III de Toulouse, Cte d'Arles". This Guillaume was to die in
994. The problem I have is that I can't place him anywhere, nor can I
come up with a lineage for him. He certainly wasn't the count of
Toulouse, who died in 1037. Can anyone direct me to an answer to this
puzzle?
This is the wrong Rotbald - Emma who became countess of Toulouse was the
daughter of Marquis Rotbald who was still living in 1008 & died perhaps
before 25 August 1011, definitely before 22 April 1015 (his paternal
grandfather & namesake died apparently in or before 942).
Emma was the second wife of Guilhem III, count of Toulouse (died
September 1037) and mother of his son & heir Pons Guilhem.
Well, then this just adds to the confusion. Genealogics has Emma's
father lineage as: Rotbald III, ct o'Provence--> Rotbald II, ct
o'Provence--> Boso II, ct of Avignon and Arles [French accent
included], so in conflict by what is given by Mr. Stewart as Rotbald's
paternal grandfather is Boso, not Rotbald.
-AM
-
Peter Stewart
Re: query about one Emma of Provence and a certain William o
Adalbertus Magnus wrote:
A quick look at Jean-Pierre Poly's _La Provence et la société féodale
(879-1166)_ (Paris, 1976) and the unpublished 'Catalogue des actes des
comtes de Provence, 945-1166' in his thesis of 1972, _La société féodale
en Provence du 10e au 12e siècle_ (Paris II, (1972) shows no warrant for
dividing Count Rotbald into two namesakes over succeeding generations.
Poly's genealogy agrees with the information I gave, but he does revise
some dates that I had noted - a gift of Rotbald's daughter Emma, titled
countess, for the benefit of his soul is altered from 22 April 1015 to
23 May 1008 (no. 69, pp. 34-35), and this would mean he died not long
before then as he subscribed another charter dated 1008 (no. 67, pp. 33-34).
I haven't looked at Genealogics to check Leo's source - perhaps he can
let us know his source/s for shifting Emma down a generation and adding
another Rotbald.
Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message news:<uTSXc.10513$D7.9707@news-server.bigpond.net.au>...
Adalbertus Magnus wrote:
I was pouring over M. Marek's file on the Bosonides of Provence
(http://genealogy.euweb.cz/french/boson.html) and am really confused.
It has Emma, daughter of Rotbald (died circa 950) married to a
"Guillaume III de Toulouse, Cte d'Arles". This Guillaume was to die in
994. The problem I have is that I can't place him anywhere, nor can I
come up with a lineage for him. He certainly wasn't the count of
Toulouse, who died in 1037. Can anyone direct me to an answer to this
puzzle?
This is the wrong Rotbald - Emma who became countess of Toulouse was the
daughter of Marquis Rotbald who was still living in 1008 & died perhaps
before 25 August 1011, definitely before 22 April 1015 (his paternal
grandfather & namesake died apparently in or before 942).
Emma was the second wife of Guilhem III, count of Toulouse (died
September 1037) and mother of his son & heir Pons Guilhem.
Well, then this just adds to the confusion. Genealogics has Emma's
father lineage as: Rotbald III, ct o'Provence--> Rotbald II, ct
o'Provence--> Boso II, ct of Avignon and Arles [French accent
included], so in conflict by what is given by Mr. Stewart as Rotbald's
paternal grandfather is Boso, not Rotbald.
A quick look at Jean-Pierre Poly's _La Provence et la société féodale
(879-1166)_ (Paris, 1976) and the unpublished 'Catalogue des actes des
comtes de Provence, 945-1166' in his thesis of 1972, _La société féodale
en Provence du 10e au 12e siècle_ (Paris II, (1972) shows no warrant for
dividing Count Rotbald into two namesakes over succeeding generations.
Poly's genealogy agrees with the information I gave, but he does revise
some dates that I had noted - a gift of Rotbald's daughter Emma, titled
countess, for the benefit of his soul is altered from 22 April 1015 to
23 May 1008 (no. 69, pp. 34-35), and this would mean he died not long
before then as he subscribed another charter dated 1008 (no. 67, pp. 33-34).
I haven't looked at Genealogics to check Leo's source - perhaps he can
let us know his source/s for shifting Emma down a generation and adding
another Rotbald.
Peter Stewart
-
Todd A. Farmerie
Re: query about one Emma of Provence and a certain William o
Peter Stewart wrote:
[snip]
I don't know if this was Leo's source, but Szabolcs de Vajay
suggested this in one of his articles.
taf
Adalbertus Magnus wrote:
Well, then this just adds to the confusion. Genealogics has Emma's
father lineage as: Rotbald III, ct o'Provence--> Rotbald II, ct
o'Provence--> Boso II, ct of Avignon and Arles [French accent
included], so in conflict by what is given by Mr. Stewart as Rotbald's
paternal grandfather is Boso, not Rotbald.
[snip]
I haven't looked at Genealogics to check Leo's source - perhaps he can
let us know his source/s for shifting Emma down a generation and adding
another Rotbald.
I don't know if this was Leo's source, but Szabolcs de Vajay
suggested this in one of his articles.
taf
-
Peter Stewart
Re: query about one Emma of Provence and a certain William o
Todd A. Farmerie wrote:
Thanks, Todd - this had slipped my mind.
It is in Szabolcs de Vajay's 'Comtesses d'origine occitane dans la
marche d'Espagne aux 10e et 11e siècles', _Hidalguia_ 28 (1980) pp.
613-4 n 56. He wrote that Georges de Manteyer had merged a Rotbald the
elder & his son Rotbald the younger into one personage, and Vajay based
the separation of identities on the difference in names of two wives.
An undated charter, transacted after the death of Count Guillem the
Liberator (brother of Vajay's elder Rotbald), that is after 29 August
993, was given by "Rotbaldus marchio, et conjux mea, nomine
Eimildis...Testes Rotbaldus comes et uxor sua Eimildis" [_Recueil des
chartes de l'abbaye de Cluny_, edited by Auguste Bernard & Alexandre
Bruel, 6 vols (Paris, 1876-1903) III, p. 199, no 1987]. In 1005 Vajay's
putative younger Rotbald, titled count, along with his wife subscribed a
charter as follows: "Rodballus, gratia Dei comes, firmavit...
Ermengardis, uxor Rodballi comitis, manu propria firmavit" [_Cartulaire
de l'abbaye de Saint-Victor de Marseille_ edited by Benjamin Guérard, 2
vols (Paris, 1857) I, p. 21 no 15.
Countess Emma named herself as daughter of Rotbald and Ermengarde in the
charter I mentioned before, dated 22 April 1015 but amended by Poly to
23 May 1008. Although Vajay didn't elaborate this point, at least in the
note cited above, he presumably thought she could not have been the
daughter of a second wife married to her father after August 993.
Poly and Manteyer on the other hand considered Eimildis and Ermengarde
to be the same woman.
Unless there is further evidence, and/or Vajay returned to the argument
elsewhere, there doesn't seem to be proof either way in the documents
quoted by him and catalogued by Poly.
Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart wrote:
Adalbertus Magnus wrote:
Well, then this just adds to the confusion. Genealogics has Emma's
father lineage as: Rotbald III, ct o'Provence--> Rotbald II, ct
o'Provence--> Boso II, ct of Avignon and Arles [French accent
included], so in conflict by what is given by Mr. Stewart as Rotbald's
paternal grandfather is Boso, not Rotbald.
[snip]
I haven't looked at Genealogics to check Leo's source - perhaps he can
let us know his source/s for shifting Emma down a generation and
adding another Rotbald.
I don't know if this was Leo's source, but Szabolcs de Vajay suggested
this in one of his articles.
Thanks, Todd - this had slipped my mind.
It is in Szabolcs de Vajay's 'Comtesses d'origine occitane dans la
marche d'Espagne aux 10e et 11e siècles', _Hidalguia_ 28 (1980) pp.
613-4 n 56. He wrote that Georges de Manteyer had merged a Rotbald the
elder & his son Rotbald the younger into one personage, and Vajay based
the separation of identities on the difference in names of two wives.
An undated charter, transacted after the death of Count Guillem the
Liberator (brother of Vajay's elder Rotbald), that is after 29 August
993, was given by "Rotbaldus marchio, et conjux mea, nomine
Eimildis...Testes Rotbaldus comes et uxor sua Eimildis" [_Recueil des
chartes de l'abbaye de Cluny_, edited by Auguste Bernard & Alexandre
Bruel, 6 vols (Paris, 1876-1903) III, p. 199, no 1987]. In 1005 Vajay's
putative younger Rotbald, titled count, along with his wife subscribed a
charter as follows: "Rodballus, gratia Dei comes, firmavit...
Ermengardis, uxor Rodballi comitis, manu propria firmavit" [_Cartulaire
de l'abbaye de Saint-Victor de Marseille_ edited by Benjamin Guérard, 2
vols (Paris, 1857) I, p. 21 no 15.
Countess Emma named herself as daughter of Rotbald and Ermengarde in the
charter I mentioned before, dated 22 April 1015 but amended by Poly to
23 May 1008. Although Vajay didn't elaborate this point, at least in the
note cited above, he presumably thought she could not have been the
daughter of a second wife married to her father after August 993.
Poly and Manteyer on the other hand considered Eimildis and Ermengarde
to be the same woman.
Unless there is further evidence, and/or Vajay returned to the argument
elsewhere, there doesn't seem to be proof either way in the documents
quoted by him and catalogued by Poly.
Peter Stewart