Herbert

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Ronald Di Iorio

Herbert

Legg inn av Ronald Di Iorio » 26 aug 2004 02:21:42

Greetings

While rummaging through some old papers I ran across
some photocopies I had made from "A Genealogical and
Heraldic History of the Peerage and Baronetage, the
Privy Council, Knightage and Companionage" by Sir
Bernard Burke, 71st Edition 1909. The following line
is given (I have abbreviated the descriptions):

1. Herbert Fitz Herbert, d. 1205, m. Lucy, daughter
of Milo Fitz Walter, Earl of Hereford.

2. Peter Fitz Herbert, m. 1204, Alice, daughter of
Robert Fitz Roger, Lord of Warkworth.

3. Reginald Fitz Peter, d. 1285, m. Joan de Vivonia.

4. Peter Fitz Reginald, m. Alice, daughter of
Blethin Broadspere, Lord of Llanllowel.

5. Herbert Fitz Peter, m. Margaret, daughter of
Sir John Walsh.

6. Adam Fitz Herbert, m. Christian, daughter of
Gwern ddu.

7. Jenkin ap Adam, m. Gwenllian, daughter of
Sir Aaron ap Bledri, Lord of Gilsant.

8. Gwilim ap Jenkin, m. Gwenllian, daughter of
Howell Vychan.

9. Thomas ap Gwilim, m. Maud de Morley.

10. Sir William ap Thomas, m. Gwladys, daughter of
Sir David Gam.

However, I never entered the above line onto my
charts, so I suspect that I had a reason for
questioning the line, but am not sure why, although I
think the flaw is probably in gerations 4-6.
Generation 6 looks somewhat suspect--isn't "Gwern ddu"
a place, not a person? I would appreciate any
information on what is actually wrong with this line.

Thanks in advance.

Ron


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Paul K Davis

RE: Herbert

Legg inn av Paul K Davis » 26 aug 2004 02:59:42

There are several versions of the Herbert ancestry in Dwnn's Visitations of
Wales and yet a different one in Bartrum's Welsh Genealogies. I am unsure
if any of them are correct. This weekend I may be able to post the
different versions, if someone else doesn't get there first. As I recall
of the top of my head, from 5 on they all agree - it is step 4 and before
where they differ.

-- PKD [Paul K Davis, pkd-gm@earthlink.net]


[Original Message]
From: Ronald Di Iorio <medgen2249@yahoo.com
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Date: 8/25/2004 6:21:40 PM
Subject: Herbert

Greetings

While rummaging through some old papers I ran across
some photocopies I had made from "A Genealogical and
Heraldic History of the Peerage and Baronetage, the
Privy Council, Knightage and Companionage" by Sir
Bernard Burke, 71st Edition 1909. The following line
is given (I have abbreviated the descriptions):

1. Herbert Fitz Herbert, d. 1205, m. Lucy, daughter
of Milo Fitz Walter, Earl of Hereford.

2. Peter Fitz Herbert, m. 1204, Alice, daughter of
Robert Fitz Roger, Lord of Warkworth.

3. Reginald Fitz Peter, d. 1285, m. Joan de Vivonia.

4. Peter Fitz Reginald, m. Alice, daughter of
Blethin Broadspere, Lord of Llanllowel.

5. Herbert Fitz Peter, m. Margaret, daughter of
Sir John Walsh.

6. Adam Fitz Herbert, m. Christian, daughter of
Gwern ddu.

7. Jenkin ap Adam, m. Gwenllian, daughter of
Sir Aaron ap Bledri, Lord of Gilsant.

8. Gwilim ap Jenkin, m. Gwenllian, daughter of
Howell Vychan.

9. Thomas ap Gwilim, m. Maud de Morley.

10. Sir William ap Thomas, m. Gwladys, daughter of
Sir David Gam.

However, I never entered the above line onto my
charts, so I suspect that I had a reason for
questioning the line, but am not sure why, although I
think the flaw is probably in gerations 4-6.
Generation 6 looks somewhat suspect--isn't "Gwern ddu"
a place, not a person? I would appreciate any
information on what is actually wrong with this line.

Thanks in advance.

Ron


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Hal Bradley

RE: Herbert

Legg inn av Hal Bradley » 26 aug 2004 09:16:40

Clark's "Limbus Patrum Morganiae et Glamorganiae" (London: Wyman, 1886), p.
250 et seq, gives the following:

"The usually received pedigree of the family commences with a certain
Herbert, Chamberlain of Henry I, and is continued through nine generations
to Jenkin ap Adam, the ancestor in the fifth degree of Black William, Earl
of Pembroke... Herbert the Chamberlain was a real personage, and is recorded
in "Domesday". In support of this descent is quoted the authority of a
commission, said to have been issued by Edward IV, in 1460, to inquire into
the ancestry of the first Earl. This commission Sir S. Meyrick has shown to
be a forgery, and a clumsy one, and its statements not to be reconciled with
independent dates and records... It will be sufficient, on the present
occasion, to state that Mr. Wakeman arrives at the conclusion that the
earliest admissible ancestor is a certain Jenkin ap Adam, who came of age in
1325, and had an illegitimate son, named John or Jenkin, who may be the
progenitor of the Herberts."

Hal Bradley
-----Original Message-----
From: Ronald Di Iorio [mailto:medgen2249@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2004 3:22 PM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Herbert

Greetings

While rummaging through some old papers I ran across
some photocopies I had made from "A Genealogical and
Heraldic History of the Peerage and Baronetage, the
Privy Council, Knightage and Companionage" by Sir
Bernard Burke, 71st Edition 1909. The following line
is given (I have abbreviated the descriptions):

1. Herbert Fitz Herbert, d. 1205, m. Lucy, daughter
of Milo Fitz Walter, Earl of Hereford.

2. Peter Fitz Herbert, m. 1204, Alice, daughter of
Robert Fitz Roger, Lord of Warkworth.

3. Reginald Fitz Peter, d. 1285, m. Joan de Vivonia.

4. Peter Fitz Reginald, m. Alice, daughter of
Blethin Broadspere, Lord of Llanllowel.

5. Herbert Fitz Peter, m. Margaret, daughter of
Sir John Walsh.

6. Adam Fitz Herbert, m. Christian, daughter of
Gwern ddu.

7. Jenkin ap Adam, m. Gwenllian, daughter of
Sir Aaron ap Bledri, Lord of Gilsant.

8. Gwilim ap Jenkin, m. Gwenllian, daughter of
Howell Vychan.

9. Thomas ap Gwilim, m. Maud de Morley.

10. Sir William ap Thomas, m. Gwladys, daughter of
Sir David Gam.

However, I never entered the above line onto my
charts, so I suspect that I had a reason for
questioning the line, but am not sure why, although I
think the flaw is probably in gerations 4-6.
Generation 6 looks somewhat suspect--isn't "Gwern ddu"
a place, not a person? I would appreciate any
information on what is actually wrong with this line.

Thanks in advance.

Ron


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Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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