Queen Mother royal descent
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
David Webb
Queen Mother royal descent
Hello all. I know the Queen mother was descended from Robert II of Scotland,
but did she have any more recent royal descents? I have been surfing round
genealogics.org, but I can't find any descents from English kings. I am
wondering how she was related to George VI. Thanks, David.
but did she have any more recent royal descents? I have been surfing round
genealogics.org, but I can't find any descents from English kings. I am
wondering how she was related to George VI. Thanks, David.
-
D. Spencer Hines
Re: Queen Mother's Royal Descents
She is descended from Henry VII. So is he, of course, so they are 13th
cousins by that relationship.
By a closer relationship, she and George VI are 10th cousins, once
removed.
Leo may well have a closer relationship than that.
DSH
"David Webb" <djwebb2002@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:robUc.177826$a8.159282@fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
| Hello all. I know the Queen mother was descended from Robert II of
Scotland,
| but did she have any more recent royal descents? I have been surfing
round
| genealogics.org, but I can't find any descents from English kings. I
am
| wondering how she was related to George VI. Thanks, David.
cousins by that relationship.
By a closer relationship, she and George VI are 10th cousins, once
removed.
Leo may well have a closer relationship than that.
DSH
"David Webb" <djwebb2002@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:robUc.177826$a8.159282@fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
| Hello all. I know the Queen mother was descended from Robert II of
Scotland,
| but did she have any more recent royal descents? I have been surfing
round
| genealogics.org, but I can't find any descents from English kings. I
am
| wondering how she was related to George VI. Thanks, David.
-
David Webb
Re: Queen Mother's Royal Descents
hello, thank you. Do you know who the common ancestors are for a 10th cousin
relationship?
Regards, DJW.
"D. Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:qEcUc.505$33.16099@eagle.america.net...
relationship?
Regards, DJW.
"D. Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:qEcUc.505$33.16099@eagle.america.net...
She is descended from Henry VII. So is he, of course, so they are 13th
cousins by that relationship.
By a closer relationship, she and George VI are 10th cousins, once
removed.
Leo may well have a closer relationship than that.
DSH
"David Webb" <djwebb2002@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:robUc.177826$a8.159282@fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
| Hello all. I know the Queen mother was descended from Robert II of
Scotland,
| but did she have any more recent royal descents? I have been surfing
round
| genealogics.org, but I can't find any descents from English kings. I
am
| wondering how she was related to George VI. Thanks, David.
-
D. Spencer Hines
Re: Queen Mother's Royal Descents
Yes, reportedly Matthew Stewart, 2nd Earl of Lennox and Edith Hamilton.
Matthew was killed at Flodden, 9 Sep 1513.
He is the Great-Great Grandfather of James I.
Cheers,
DSH
"David Webb" <djwebb2002@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:tBdUc.148298$28.79994@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
| hello, thank you. Do you know who the common ancestors are for a 10th
cousin
| relationship?
|
| Regards, DJW.
|
|
| "D. Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote in message
| news:qEcUc.505$33.16099@eagle.america.net...
| > She is descended from Henry VII. So is he, of course, so they are
13th
| > cousins by that relationship.
| >
| > By a closer relationship, she and George VI are 10th cousins, once
| > removed.
| >
| > Leo may well have a closer relationship than that.
| >
| > DSH
| >
| > "David Webb" <djwebb2002@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
| > news:robUc.177826$a8.159282@fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
| >
| > | Hello all. I know the Queen mother was descended from Robert II of
| > Scotland,
| > | but did she have any more recent royal descents? I have been
surfing
| > round
| > | genealogics.org, but I can't find any descents from English kings.
I
| > am
| > | wondering how she was related to George VI. Thanks, David.
Matthew was killed at Flodden, 9 Sep 1513.
He is the Great-Great Grandfather of James I.
Cheers,
DSH
"David Webb" <djwebb2002@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:tBdUc.148298$28.79994@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
| hello, thank you. Do you know who the common ancestors are for a 10th
cousin
| relationship?
|
| Regards, DJW.
|
|
| "D. Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote in message
| news:qEcUc.505$33.16099@eagle.america.net...
| > She is descended from Henry VII. So is he, of course, so they are
13th
| > cousins by that relationship.
| >
| > By a closer relationship, she and George VI are 10th cousins, once
| > removed.
| >
| > Leo may well have a closer relationship than that.
| >
| > DSH
| >
| > "David Webb" <djwebb2002@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
| > news:robUc.177826$a8.159282@fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
| >
| > | Hello all. I know the Queen mother was descended from Robert II of
| > Scotland,
| > | but did she have any more recent royal descents? I have been
surfing
| > round
| > | genealogics.org, but I can't find any descents from English kings.
I
| > am
| > | wondering how she was related to George VI. Thanks, David.
-
D. Spencer Hines
Re: Queen Mother Royal Descent
?????
Don't you have her as a descendant of James I of Scotland too, Leo --
and those before him?
James I of Scotland was, of course, the father of James II of Scotland.
Cheers,
Spencer
""Leo van de Pas"" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au> wrote in message
news:000701c483eb$c8f57820$c3b4fea9@email...
| ...skipping a few more kings we find James II, King of Scots as
| her first Scottish King as ancestor.
| Hope this helps?
| Best wishes.
| Leo van de Pas
| Canberra, Australia
Don't you have her as a descendant of James I of Scotland too, Leo --
and those before him?
James I of Scotland was, of course, the father of James II of Scotland.
Cheers,
Spencer
""Leo van de Pas"" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au> wrote in message
news:000701c483eb$c8f57820$c3b4fea9@email...
| ...skipping a few more kings we find James II, King of Scots as
| her first Scottish King as ancestor.
| Hope this helps?
| Best wishes.
| Leo van de Pas
| Canberra, Australia
-
Paul K Davis
RE: Queen Mother royal descent
Running PAF on my database caused it to give up after the first 100
relationships between the late Queen Mum and her hubby. Among these, their
closest relationship seems to be 13th cousin from the common descent from
Henry VII and Elizabeth Plantagenet.
The Queen Mum's line goes:
Elizabeth Angela Marguerite Bowes-Lyon
Nina Cecilia Cavendish-Bentinck
Charles William F. Cavendish-Bentinck
William Charles Augustus Cavendish-Bentinck
Dorothy Cavendish
Charlotte Elizabeth Boyle
Richard Boyle
Charles Boyle
Jane Seymour
William Seymour
Edward Beauchamp Seymour
Catherine Grey
Frances Brandon
Mary Tudor
Henry Tudor (VII) & Elizabeth Plantagenet
-- PKD [Paul K Davis, pkd-gm@earthlink.net]
relationships between the late Queen Mum and her hubby. Among these, their
closest relationship seems to be 13th cousin from the common descent from
Henry VII and Elizabeth Plantagenet.
The Queen Mum's line goes:
Elizabeth Angela Marguerite Bowes-Lyon
Nina Cecilia Cavendish-Bentinck
Charles William F. Cavendish-Bentinck
William Charles Augustus Cavendish-Bentinck
Dorothy Cavendish
Charlotte Elizabeth Boyle
Richard Boyle
Charles Boyle
Jane Seymour
William Seymour
Edward Beauchamp Seymour
Catherine Grey
Frances Brandon
Mary Tudor
Henry Tudor (VII) & Elizabeth Plantagenet
-- PKD [Paul K Davis, pkd-gm@earthlink.net]
[Original Message]
From: David Webb <djwebb2002@blueyonder.co.uk
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Date: 8/16/2004 7:29:59 PM
Subject: Queen Mother royal descent
Hello all. I know the Queen mother was descended from Robert II of
Scotland,
but did she have any more recent royal descents? I have been surfing round
genealogics.org, but I can't find any descents from English kings. I am
wondering how she was related to George VI. Thanks, David.
-
Leo van de Pas
Re: Queen Mother royal descent
Dear David,
I have the advantage of having also my own database which has a few features
genealogics doesn't have (and vice-versa). Robert II is far from the first
Scottish king the late Queen Mother descents from.
Probably her first King as ancestor is Conor O'Brien, last King of Thomond,
died 1540,
the next one is Henry VII, King of England and skipping a few more kings we
find James II, King of Scots as her first Scottish King as ancestor.
I think the first common ancestor between the Queen Mother and King George
VI would be George Douglas, Master of Angus, 1469-1513.
Hope this helps?
Best wishes.
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Webb" <djwebb2002@blueyonder.co.uk>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2004 9:26 AM
Subject: Queen Mother royal descent
I have the advantage of having also my own database which has a few features
genealogics doesn't have (and vice-versa). Robert II is far from the first
Scottish king the late Queen Mother descents from.
Probably her first King as ancestor is Conor O'Brien, last King of Thomond,
died 1540,
the next one is Henry VII, King of England and skipping a few more kings we
find James II, King of Scots as her first Scottish King as ancestor.
I think the first common ancestor between the Queen Mother and King George
VI would be George Douglas, Master of Angus, 1469-1513.
Hope this helps?
Best wishes.
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Webb" <djwebb2002@blueyonder.co.uk>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2004 9:26 AM
Subject: Queen Mother royal descent
Hello all. I know the Queen mother was descended from Robert II of
Scotland,
but did she have any more recent royal descents? I have been surfing round
genealogics.org, but I can't find any descents from English kings. I am
wondering how she was related to George VI. Thanks, David.
-
Andy.III
RE: Queen Mother royal descent
Running PAF on my database caused it to give up after the first 100
relationships between the late Queen Mum and her hubby.
Roglo reports that there are 86,466 relationships between George VI and his
wife..that of 13th cousin beig the closest.
..
Andy.III
--
"I have a congenital birth defect.
I have a violent commitment to candor,
so don't ask unless you *REALLY* want to know!"
-
David Webb
Re: Queen Mother Royal Descent
I think Leo means "first working back in history"
"D. Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1_dUc.521$33.16102@eagle.america.net...
"D. Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1_dUc.521$33.16102@eagle.america.net...
?????
Don't you have her as a descendant of James I of Scotland too, Leo --
and those before him?
James I of Scotland was, of course, the father of James II of Scotland.
Cheers,
Spencer
""Leo van de Pas"" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au> wrote in message
news:000701c483eb$c8f57820$c3b4fea9@email...
| ...skipping a few more kings we find James II, King of Scots as
| her first Scottish King as ancestor.
| Hope this helps?
| Best wishes.
| Leo van de Pas
| Canberra, Australia
-
siabair ~^~
Re: Queen Mother royal descent
"Leo van de Pas" wrote:
(cancelled and resent without typos)
This is an anachronism. Early Ireland had a political hierarchy that moved
from king to overking to high-king. From an early date kingship
consolidated so that the lower levels of the hierarchy became equivalent to
continental dux and comes but the old titles often remained in use in an
antiquarian way. The Irish kingship was extinguished soon after the arrival
of the Anglo-Normans and the native dynasties fell back onto these
antiquarian titles of kingship, but they were not kings and they knew it
(see 'From Kings to Warlords' by Katharine Simms).
The most recent O Brien to hold a kingship was Muircheartach O Brien who
was king of Ireland for a time in the early twelfth century. I have no idea
if he was an ancestor of Conor died 1540, 'Irish Kings and High-Kings' by
FJ Byrne shows the later O Briens proceeding through a brother.
--
siabair (Old Irish) /shabba/ = 'ghost', 'phantom', 'spectre'
Probably her first King as ancestor is Conor O'Brien, last King of
Thomond, died 1540
(cancelled and resent without typos)
This is an anachronism. Early Ireland had a political hierarchy that moved
from king to overking to high-king. From an early date kingship
consolidated so that the lower levels of the hierarchy became equivalent to
continental dux and comes but the old titles often remained in use in an
antiquarian way. The Irish kingship was extinguished soon after the arrival
of the Anglo-Normans and the native dynasties fell back onto these
antiquarian titles of kingship, but they were not kings and they knew it
(see 'From Kings to Warlords' by Katharine Simms).
The most recent O Brien to hold a kingship was Muircheartach O Brien who
was king of Ireland for a time in the early twelfth century. I have no idea
if he was an ancestor of Conor died 1540, 'Irish Kings and High-Kings' by
FJ Byrne shows the later O Briens proceeding through a brother.
--
siabair (Old Irish) /shabba/ = 'ghost', 'phantom', 'spectre'
-
David Webb
Re: Queen Mother's Royal Descents
Matthew Stewart 11th Earl of Lennox and Elizabeth Hamilton are ancestors of
James I, but not of the Queen Mother.
"D. Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:tRdUc.517$33.16197@eagle.america.net...
James I, but not of the Queen Mother.
"D. Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:tRdUc.517$33.16197@eagle.america.net...
Yes, reportedly Matthew Stewart, 2nd Earl of Lennox and Edith Hamilton.
Matthew was killed at Flodden, 9 Sep 1513.
He is the Great-Great Grandfather of James I.
Cheers,
DSH
"David Webb" <djwebb2002@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:tBdUc.148298$28.79994@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
| hello, thank you. Do you know who the common ancestors are for a 10th
cousin
| relationship?
|
| Regards, DJW.
|
|
| "D. Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote in message
| news:qEcUc.505$33.16099@eagle.america.net...
| > She is descended from Henry VII. So is he, of course, so they are
13th
| > cousins by that relationship.
|
| > By a closer relationship, she and George VI are 10th cousins, once
| > removed.
|
| > Leo may well have a closer relationship than that.
|
| > DSH
|
| > "David Webb" <djwebb2002@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
| > news:robUc.177826$a8.159282@fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
|
| > | Hello all. I know the Queen mother was descended from Robert II of
| > Scotland,
| > | but did she have any more recent royal descents? I have been
surfing
| > round
| > | genealogics.org, but I can't find any descents from English kings.
I
| > am
| > | wondering how she was related to George VI. Thanks, David.
-
Bronwen Edwards
Re: Queen Mother royal descent
"siabair ~^~" <siabair@h=tmail.c=m> wrote in message news:<cftlbs$9i$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk>...
Are you suggesting that an indigenous sense of or attachment to
sovereignty is extinguished merely because a conqueror says it is?
While sovereignty is a slippery thing to define, in practical terms it
is the ability to exercise sovereign powers. A nation need not
exercise all possible sovereign powers in order to maintain its
sovereignty. Conquest does not extinguish sovereignty even though
specific powers may be transferred to the conqueror. A modern example
would be the small nations that were temporarily organized into
Yugoslavia. Obviously they never considered their sovereignty
extinguished even though they had to act as if it had been for a short
period. In terms of the historical record, the Kings of Thomond (as
one example) became the Earls of Thomond. But how do we know that
their native sense of kingship was actually extinguished or that the
people within the O'Brien sphere of influence regarded them as less
royal? You may be right, but I would not make such an assumption on
the basis of Anglo-Norman hegemony. Best, Bronwen
The Irish kingship was extinguished soon after the arrival
of the Anglo-Normans and the native dynasties fell back onto these
antiquarian titles of kingship, but they were not kings and they knew it
(see 'From Kings to Warlords' by Katharine Simms).
Are you suggesting that an indigenous sense of or attachment to
sovereignty is extinguished merely because a conqueror says it is?
While sovereignty is a slippery thing to define, in practical terms it
is the ability to exercise sovereign powers. A nation need not
exercise all possible sovereign powers in order to maintain its
sovereignty. Conquest does not extinguish sovereignty even though
specific powers may be transferred to the conqueror. A modern example
would be the small nations that were temporarily organized into
Yugoslavia. Obviously they never considered their sovereignty
extinguished even though they had to act as if it had been for a short
period. In terms of the historical record, the Kings of Thomond (as
one example) became the Earls of Thomond. But how do we know that
their native sense of kingship was actually extinguished or that the
people within the O'Brien sphere of influence regarded them as less
royal? You may be right, but I would not make such an assumption on
the basis of Anglo-Norman hegemony. Best, Bronwen
-
D. Spencer Hines
Re: Queen Mother's Royal Descents
You appear to be mistaken with your categorical statement.
Matthew Stewart 2nd/11th Earl of Lennox and his wife, Elizabeth Hamilton
are reportedly ancestors of James I, George VI [of course] AND the Queen
Mother -- all three.
I'll leave it as an exercise for your own enjoyment to trace it.
They also have another closer relationship than has previously been
stated. I'll also leave that one for your delectation in unraveling.
Cheers,
DSH
"David Webb" <djwebb2002@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:G8xUc.187005$a8.186347@fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
| Matthew Stewart 11th Earl of Lennox and Elizabeth Hamilton are
| ancestors of James I, but not of the Queen Mother.
Matthew Stewart 2nd/11th Earl of Lennox and his wife, Elizabeth Hamilton
are reportedly ancestors of James I, George VI [of course] AND the Queen
Mother -- all three.
I'll leave it as an exercise for your own enjoyment to trace it.
They also have another closer relationship than has previously been
stated. I'll also leave that one for your delectation in unraveling.
Cheers,
DSH
"David Webb" <djwebb2002@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:G8xUc.187005$a8.186347@fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
| Matthew Stewart 11th Earl of Lennox and Elizabeth Hamilton are
| ancestors of James I, but not of the Queen Mother.
-
Ian Fettes
Re: Queen Mother's Royal Descents
Hi Spencer,
In running a check on my own database (as Genealogics has processing time
limits on the server that make these calculations incomplete), I find 54
relationships out to 14th cousin only (16 generations) as follows:
13th cousin from Sir George Douglas twice and seven times as 13th once
removed:
13th cousin from King Henry VII four times and 14 times once removed:
13th cousin once removed from John Stewart, 1st Earl of Athol, twice, and
seven times as 14th cousin:
14th cousin from Lady Joan Beaufort twice:
14th cousin from King Edward IV twice:
14th cousin from King James II twice:
14th cousin from William Sinclair, 3rd Earl of Orkney twice:
14th cousin from Elizabeth Widville five times:
14th cousin from Mary Stewart twice:
14th cousin from John Drummond, 1st Lord Drummond three times.
Running to 17 or more generations produces many more links to some of the
above people of course.
I am unable to verify the claimed 10th cousin once removed relationship.
Please clarify how the descent runs through Matthew Stewart, 2nd Earl of
Lennox.
Cheers,
Ian
----- Original Message -----
From: "D. Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2004 11:12 AM
Subject: Re: Queen Mother's Royal Descents
In running a check on my own database (as Genealogics has processing time
limits on the server that make these calculations incomplete), I find 54
relationships out to 14th cousin only (16 generations) as follows:
13th cousin from Sir George Douglas twice and seven times as 13th once
removed:
13th cousin from King Henry VII four times and 14 times once removed:
13th cousin once removed from John Stewart, 1st Earl of Athol, twice, and
seven times as 14th cousin:
14th cousin from Lady Joan Beaufort twice:
14th cousin from King Edward IV twice:
14th cousin from King James II twice:
14th cousin from William Sinclair, 3rd Earl of Orkney twice:
14th cousin from Elizabeth Widville five times:
14th cousin from Mary Stewart twice:
14th cousin from John Drummond, 1st Lord Drummond three times.
Running to 17 or more generations produces many more links to some of the
above people of course.
I am unable to verify the claimed 10th cousin once removed relationship.
Please clarify how the descent runs through Matthew Stewart, 2nd Earl of
Lennox.
Cheers,
Ian
----- Original Message -----
From: "D. Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2004 11:12 AM
Subject: Re: Queen Mother's Royal Descents
She is descended from Henry VII. So is he, of course, so they are 13th
cousins by that relationship.
By a closer relationship, she and George VI are 10th cousins, once
removed.
Leo may well have a closer relationship than that.
DSH
"David Webb" <djwebb2002@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:robUc.177826$a8.159282@fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
| Hello all. I know the Queen mother was descended from Robert II of
Scotland,
| but did she have any more recent royal descents? I have been surfing
round
| genealogics.org, but I can't find any descents from English kings. I
am
| wondering how she was related to George VI. Thanks, David.
______________________________
-
siabair ~^~
Re: Queen Mother royal descent
Bronwen Edwards wrote:
I was addressing the telescoped, one dimensional, flat view (implicit in
glibly describing a sixteenth century O Brien as king of Thomond) that
would have us believe that Ireland from the fifth to sixteenth centuries
was an immutable patchwork of tribal kingships. The English kings lordship
of Ireland was as fictional as their kingship of France, but that does not
make a sixteenth century O Brien into a king.
--
siabair (Old Irish) /shabba/ = 'ghost', 'phantom', 'spectre'
Are you suggesting that an indigenous sense of or attachment to
sovereignty is extinguished merely because a conqueror says it is?
I was addressing the telescoped, one dimensional, flat view (implicit in
glibly describing a sixteenth century O Brien as king of Thomond) that
would have us believe that Ireland from the fifth to sixteenth centuries
was an immutable patchwork of tribal kingships. The English kings lordship
of Ireland was as fictional as their kingship of France, but that does not
make a sixteenth century O Brien into a king.
--
siabair (Old Irish) /shabba/ = 'ghost', 'phantom', 'spectre'
-
John Steele Gordon
Re: Queen Mother royal descent
"Bronwen Edwards" <lostcooper@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:54ca55f1.0408171929.33c450cc@posting.google.com...
You are confusing sovereignty and, for lack of a better term, nationhood.
The former is an objective term, recognized in and defined by international
law; the latter is highly subjective, essentially a matter of political
psychology. But that can be a very potent geopolitical force.
A conqueror can indeed extinguish sovereignty--just ask Poland in the 19th
century. But, as the British found out with Ireland, as Spain found out
with the Netherlands, and the world found out with the Jews, it cannot
extinguish a sense of nationhood, a sense of being a people.
That is not to say that nationhood is inextinguishable. Prussia, thank God,
no longer exists even as a part of a greater whole. Nor does the
Confederacy. Ironically, the great war that, finally, annihilated
Confederate nationhood, created American nationhood. The phrase "United
States" was construed in the plural before the Civil War, but has been
construed in the singular ("The United States is . . .") ever since.
JSG
news:54ca55f1.0408171929.33c450cc@posting.google.com...
Are you suggesting that an indigenous sense of or attachment to
sovereignty is extinguished merely because a conqueror says it is?
While sovereignty is a slippery thing to define, in practical terms it
is the ability to exercise sovereign powers. A nation need not
exercise all possible sovereign powers in order to maintain its
sovereignty.
You are confusing sovereignty and, for lack of a better term, nationhood.
The former is an objective term, recognized in and defined by international
law; the latter is highly subjective, essentially a matter of political
psychology. But that can be a very potent geopolitical force.
A conqueror can indeed extinguish sovereignty--just ask Poland in the 19th
century. But, as the British found out with Ireland, as Spain found out
with the Netherlands, and the world found out with the Jews, it cannot
extinguish a sense of nationhood, a sense of being a people.
That is not to say that nationhood is inextinguishable. Prussia, thank God,
no longer exists even as a part of a greater whole. Nor does the
Confederacy. Ironically, the great war that, finally, annihilated
Confederate nationhood, created American nationhood. The phrase "United
States" was construed in the plural before the Civil War, but has been
construed in the singular ("The United States is . . .") ever since.
JSG
-
David Webb
Re: Queen Mother's Royal Descents
I don't think you are right. I looked at Genealogics' 8-generation pedigree
table for the Queen Mother and an 8 generation descendancy table for Matthew
Stewart - there are no overlapping people. If you were right then Matthew
Stewart would be the great-grandfather of at least one of the people on the
Queen Mum's 8-gen pedigree chart. It can be difficult admitting one is
wrong....
"D. Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:HwBUc.604$33.17387@eagle.america.net...
table for the Queen Mother and an 8 generation descendancy table for Matthew
Stewart - there are no overlapping people. If you were right then Matthew
Stewart would be the great-grandfather of at least one of the people on the
Queen Mum's 8-gen pedigree chart. It can be difficult admitting one is
wrong....
"D. Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:HwBUc.604$33.17387@eagle.america.net...
You appear to be mistaken with your categorical statement.
Matthew Stewart 2nd/11th Earl of Lennox and his wife, Elizabeth Hamilton
are reportedly ancestors of James I, George VI [of course] AND the Queen
Mother -- all three.
I'll leave it as an exercise for your own enjoyment to trace it.
They also have another closer relationship than has previously been
stated. I'll also leave that one for your delectation in unraveling.
Cheers,
DSH
"David Webb" <djwebb2002@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:G8xUc.187005$a8.186347@fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
| Matthew Stewart 11th Earl of Lennox and Elizabeth Hamilton are
| ancestors of James I, but not of the Queen Mother.
-
David Webb
Re: Queen Mother's Royal Descents
The answer is that I have looked into it and Matthew Stewart is not an
ancestor of the Queen Mother.
""Ian Fettes"" <fettesi@st.net.au> wrote in message
news:017b01c48503$da63dbb0$18d9f0dc@iandl3mr2dhbht...
ancestor of the Queen Mother.
""Ian Fettes"" <fettesi@st.net.au> wrote in message
news:017b01c48503$da63dbb0$18d9f0dc@iandl3mr2dhbht...
Hi Spencer,
In running a check on my own database (as Genealogics has processing time
limits on the server that make these calculations incomplete), I find 54
relationships out to 14th cousin only (16 generations) as follows:
13th cousin from Sir George Douglas twice and seven times as 13th once
removed:
13th cousin from King Henry VII four times and 14 times once removed:
13th cousin once removed from John Stewart, 1st Earl of Athol, twice, and
seven times as 14th cousin:
14th cousin from Lady Joan Beaufort twice:
14th cousin from King Edward IV twice:
14th cousin from King James II twice:
14th cousin from William Sinclair, 3rd Earl of Orkney twice:
14th cousin from Elizabeth Widville five times:
14th cousin from Mary Stewart twice:
14th cousin from John Drummond, 1st Lord Drummond three times.
Running to 17 or more generations produces many more links to some of the
above people of course.
I am unable to verify the claimed 10th cousin once removed relationship.
Please clarify how the descent runs through Matthew Stewart, 2nd Earl of
Lennox.
Cheers,
Ian
----- Original Message -----
From: "D. Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2004 11:12 AM
Subject: Re: Queen Mother's Royal Descents
She is descended from Henry VII. So is he, of course, so they are 13th
cousins by that relationship.
By a closer relationship, she and George VI are 10th cousins, once
removed.
Leo may well have a closer relationship than that.
DSH
"David Webb" <djwebb2002@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:robUc.177826$a8.159282@fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
| Hello all. I know the Queen mother was descended from Robert II of
Scotland,
| but did she have any more recent royal descents? I have been surfing
round
| genealogics.org, but I can't find any descents from English kings. I
am
| wondering how she was related to George VI. Thanks, David.
______________________________
-
D. Spencer Hines
Re: Queen Mother's Royal Descents
Hi Ian,
I like your database -- the look and feel of the results it spits out.
| 13th cousin from Sir George Douglas twice and seven times as 13th once
| removed:
1. You don't find a 12th cousins, once removed relationship between
George VI and the Queen Mother -- from George Douglas Master of Angus
and Elizabeth Drummond? Please clarify how your shortest descents run
from George Douglas Master of Angus and Elizabeth Drummond to George VI
and the Queen Mother.
2. I said that George VI and Elizabeth Angela, the Queen Mother,
reportedly have a common descent from Matthew Stewart 2nd/11th Earl of
Lennox and his wife, Elizabeth Hamilton and you have shown that report
to be in error.
3. Thanks for clearing that up, Ian.
Cheers,
Spencer
""Ian Fettes"" <fettesi@st.net.au> wrote in message
news:017b01c48503$da63dbb0$18d9f0dc@iandl3mr2dhbht...
| Hi Spencer,
|
| In running a check on my own database (as Genealogics has processing
time
| limits on the server that make these calculations incomplete), I find
54
| relationships out to 14th cousin only (16 generations) as follows:
|
| 13th cousin from Sir George Douglas twice and seven times as 13th once
| removed:
| 13th cousin from King Henry VII four times and 14 times once removed:
| 13th cousin once removed from John Stewart, 1st Earl of Athol, twice,
and
| seven times as 14th cousin:
| 14th cousin from Lady Joan Beaufort twice:
| 14th cousin from King Edward IV twice:
| 14th cousin from King James II twice:
| 14th cousin from William Sinclair, 3rd Earl of Orkney twice:
| 14th cousin from Elizabeth Widville five times:
| 14th cousin from Mary Stewart twice:
| 14th cousin from John Drummond, 1st Lord Drummond three times.
|
| Running to 17 or more generations produces many more links to some of
the
| above people of course.
|
| I am unable to verify the claimed 10th cousin once removed
relationship.
| Please clarify how the descent runs through Matthew Stewart, 2nd Earl
of
| Lennox.
|
| Cheers,
|
| Ian
I like your database -- the look and feel of the results it spits out.
| 13th cousin from Sir George Douglas twice and seven times as 13th once
| removed:
1. You don't find a 12th cousins, once removed relationship between
George VI and the Queen Mother -- from George Douglas Master of Angus
and Elizabeth Drummond? Please clarify how your shortest descents run
from George Douglas Master of Angus and Elizabeth Drummond to George VI
and the Queen Mother.
2. I said that George VI and Elizabeth Angela, the Queen Mother,
reportedly have a common descent from Matthew Stewart 2nd/11th Earl of
Lennox and his wife, Elizabeth Hamilton and you have shown that report
to be in error.
3. Thanks for clearing that up, Ian.
Cheers,
Spencer
""Ian Fettes"" <fettesi@st.net.au> wrote in message
news:017b01c48503$da63dbb0$18d9f0dc@iandl3mr2dhbht...
| Hi Spencer,
|
| In running a check on my own database (as Genealogics has processing
time
| limits on the server that make these calculations incomplete), I find
54
| relationships out to 14th cousin only (16 generations) as follows:
|
| 13th cousin from Sir George Douglas twice and seven times as 13th once
| removed:
| 13th cousin from King Henry VII four times and 14 times once removed:
| 13th cousin once removed from John Stewart, 1st Earl of Athol, twice,
and
| seven times as 14th cousin:
| 14th cousin from Lady Joan Beaufort twice:
| 14th cousin from King Edward IV twice:
| 14th cousin from King James II twice:
| 14th cousin from William Sinclair, 3rd Earl of Orkney twice:
| 14th cousin from Elizabeth Widville five times:
| 14th cousin from Mary Stewart twice:
| 14th cousin from John Drummond, 1st Lord Drummond three times.
|
| Running to 17 or more generations produces many more links to some of
the
| above people of course.
|
| I am unable to verify the claimed 10th cousin once removed
relationship.
| Please clarify how the descent runs through Matthew Stewart, 2nd Earl
of
| Lennox.
|
| Cheers,
|
| Ian
-
D. Spencer Hines
Re: Queen Mother Royal Descent
Well-Stated And True
However, many of us still refer to THESE United States, as well -- and
are correct.
For example, in November, we shall have 51 separate Presidential
Elections -- in the 50 States and the District of Columbia.
DSH
"John Steele Gordon" <ancestry@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:P5KUc.23756$vc4.8970067@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...
| "Bronwen Edwards" <lostcooper@yahoo.com> wrote in message
| news:54ca55f1.0408171929.33c450cc@posting.google.com...
|
| > Are you suggesting that an indigenous sense of or attachment to
| > sovereignty is extinguished merely because a conqueror says it is?
| > While sovereignty is a slippery thing to define, in practical terms
it
| > is the ability to exercise sovereign powers. A nation need not
| > exercise all possible sovereign powers in order to maintain its
| > sovereignty.
|
| You are confusing sovereignty and, for lack of a better term,
nationhood.
| The former is an objective term, recognized in and defined by
international
| law; the latter is highly subjective, essentially a matter of
political
| psychology. But that can be a very potent geopolitical force.
|
| A conqueror can indeed extinguish sovereignty--just ask Poland in the
19th
| century. But, as the British found out with Ireland, as Spain found
out
| with the Netherlands, and the world found out with the Jews, it cannot
| extinguish a sense of nationhood, a sense of being a people.
|
| That is not to say that nationhood is inextinguishable. Prussia, thank
God,
| no longer exists even as a part of a greater whole. Nor does the
| Confederacy. Ironically, the great war that, finally, annihilated
| Confederate nationhood, created American nationhood. The phrase
"United
| States" was construed in the plural before the Civil War, but has been
| construed in the singular ("The United States is . . .") ever since.
|
| JSG
However, many of us still refer to THESE United States, as well -- and
are correct.
For example, in November, we shall have 51 separate Presidential
Elections -- in the 50 States and the District of Columbia.
DSH
"John Steele Gordon" <ancestry@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:P5KUc.23756$vc4.8970067@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...
| "Bronwen Edwards" <lostcooper@yahoo.com> wrote in message
| news:54ca55f1.0408171929.33c450cc@posting.google.com...
|
| > Are you suggesting that an indigenous sense of or attachment to
| > sovereignty is extinguished merely because a conqueror says it is?
| > While sovereignty is a slippery thing to define, in practical terms
it
| > is the ability to exercise sovereign powers. A nation need not
| > exercise all possible sovereign powers in order to maintain its
| > sovereignty.
|
| You are confusing sovereignty and, for lack of a better term,
nationhood.
| The former is an objective term, recognized in and defined by
international
| law; the latter is highly subjective, essentially a matter of
political
| psychology. But that can be a very potent geopolitical force.
|
| A conqueror can indeed extinguish sovereignty--just ask Poland in the
19th
| century. But, as the British found out with Ireland, as Spain found
out
| with the Netherlands, and the world found out with the Jews, it cannot
| extinguish a sense of nationhood, a sense of being a people.
|
| That is not to say that nationhood is inextinguishable. Prussia, thank
God,
| no longer exists even as a part of a greater whole. Nor does the
| Confederacy. Ironically, the great war that, finally, annihilated
| Confederate nationhood, created American nationhood. The phrase
"United
| States" was construed in the plural before the Civil War, but has been
| construed in the singular ("The United States is . . .") ever since.
|
| JSG
-
Ian Fettes
Re: Queen Mother's Royal Descents
Hi Spencer,
The following are the two 13th cousin descents I show from George Douglas and Elizabeth Drummond. Titles and names shown may vary from standard usage.
View in fixed pitch font:
1st line
George Douglas
+ Elizabeth Drummond
______________________________________________
| |
Janet Douglas Archibald Douglas, Earl of Angus
+ John Lyon, Lord Glamis 6th + Margaret Tudor
| |
John Lyon, Lord Glamis 7th Margaret Douglas
+ Janet Keith + Matthew Stuart, Earl of Lennox
| |
John Lyon, Lord Glamis 8th Henry Stuart, Lord Darnley
+ Elizabeth Abernathy + Mary Stewart, Queen of Scots
| |
Patrick Lyon, Earl of Kinghome 1st James I, King of England
+ Anne Murray + Anne of Denmark
| |
John Lyon, Earl of Kinghome 2nd Elizabeth Stuart
+ Elizabeth Maule + Freidrich V of Pfalz
| |
Patrick Lyon, Earl of Strathmore Sophia of Pfalz-Simmern
+ Helen Middleton + Ernst August of Braunschweig
| |
John Lyon, Earl of Strathmore George I, King of England
+ Elizabeth Stanhope + Sophie Dorothea of Celle
| |
Thomas Lyon, Earl of Strathmore George II, King of England
+ Jean Nicholson + Wilhelmine of Brandenburg-Ansbach
| |
John Lyon, Earl of Strathmore Frederick Louis, Prince of Wales
+ Mary Eleanor Bowes + Augusta of Sachen-Gotha
| |
Thomas Lyon-Bowes, Earl of Strathmore George III, King of England
+ Mary Elizabeth Louisa Rodney Carpenter + Sophie Charlotte of Mecklenburg- Streilitz
| |
Thomas George Lyon-Bowes, Lord Glamis Adolphus, Duke of Cambridge
+ Charlotte Grimstead + Augusta of Hesse-Cassel
| |
Claude Bowes-Lyon, Earl of Strathmore Mary Adelaide, Princess
+ Francis Dora Smith + Francis Paul Charles, Duke of Teck
| |
Claude George Bowes-Lyon, Earl of Strathmore Mary of Teck
+ Cecilia Nina Cavendish-Bentinck + George V, King of England
| |
Elizabeth Agnela Marguerite Bowes-Lyon George VI, King of England
2nd line as above until:
Thomas Lyon, Earl of Strathmore George II, King of England
+ Jean Nicholson + Wilhelmine of Brandenburg-Ansbach
| |
John Lyon, Earl of Strathmore Mary of Hanover
+ Mary Eleanor Bowes + Frederik II of Hesse-Cassel
| |
Thomas Lyon-Bowes, Earl of Strathmore Friedrich of Hessel-Cassel
+ Mary Elizabeth Louisa Rodney Carpenter + Carolyn Polyxena of Nassau-Usingen
| |
Thomas George Lyon-Bowes, Lord Glamis Augusta of Hesse-Cassel
+ Charlotte Grimstead + Adolphus, Duke of Cambridge
| |
Claude Bowes-Lyon, Earl of Strathmore Mary Adelaide, Princess
+ Francis Dora Smith + Francis Paul Charles, Duke of Teck
| |
Claude George Bowes-Lyon, Earl of Strathmore Mary of Teck
+ Cecilia Nina Cavendish-Bentinck + George V, King of England
| |
Elizabeth Agnela Marguerite Bowes-Lyon George VI, King of England
Hope that helps. I think David Webb may have highlighted the false line you were indicating.
Ian
----- Original Message -----
From: "D. Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 4:44 AM
Subject: Re: Queen Mother's Royal Descents
<snip>
The following are the two 13th cousin descents I show from George Douglas and Elizabeth Drummond. Titles and names shown may vary from standard usage.
View in fixed pitch font:
1st line
George Douglas
+ Elizabeth Drummond
______________________________________________
| |
Janet Douglas Archibald Douglas, Earl of Angus
+ John Lyon, Lord Glamis 6th + Margaret Tudor
| |
John Lyon, Lord Glamis 7th Margaret Douglas
+ Janet Keith + Matthew Stuart, Earl of Lennox
| |
John Lyon, Lord Glamis 8th Henry Stuart, Lord Darnley
+ Elizabeth Abernathy + Mary Stewart, Queen of Scots
| |
Patrick Lyon, Earl of Kinghome 1st James I, King of England
+ Anne Murray + Anne of Denmark
| |
John Lyon, Earl of Kinghome 2nd Elizabeth Stuart
+ Elizabeth Maule + Freidrich V of Pfalz
| |
Patrick Lyon, Earl of Strathmore Sophia of Pfalz-Simmern
+ Helen Middleton + Ernst August of Braunschweig
| |
John Lyon, Earl of Strathmore George I, King of England
+ Elizabeth Stanhope + Sophie Dorothea of Celle
| |
Thomas Lyon, Earl of Strathmore George II, King of England
+ Jean Nicholson + Wilhelmine of Brandenburg-Ansbach
| |
John Lyon, Earl of Strathmore Frederick Louis, Prince of Wales
+ Mary Eleanor Bowes + Augusta of Sachen-Gotha
| |
Thomas Lyon-Bowes, Earl of Strathmore George III, King of England
+ Mary Elizabeth Louisa Rodney Carpenter + Sophie Charlotte of Mecklenburg- Streilitz
| |
Thomas George Lyon-Bowes, Lord Glamis Adolphus, Duke of Cambridge
+ Charlotte Grimstead + Augusta of Hesse-Cassel
| |
Claude Bowes-Lyon, Earl of Strathmore Mary Adelaide, Princess
+ Francis Dora Smith + Francis Paul Charles, Duke of Teck
| |
Claude George Bowes-Lyon, Earl of Strathmore Mary of Teck
+ Cecilia Nina Cavendish-Bentinck + George V, King of England
| |
Elizabeth Agnela Marguerite Bowes-Lyon George VI, King of England
2nd line as above until:
Thomas Lyon, Earl of Strathmore George II, King of England
+ Jean Nicholson + Wilhelmine of Brandenburg-Ansbach
| |
John Lyon, Earl of Strathmore Mary of Hanover
+ Mary Eleanor Bowes + Frederik II of Hesse-Cassel
| |
Thomas Lyon-Bowes, Earl of Strathmore Friedrich of Hessel-Cassel
+ Mary Elizabeth Louisa Rodney Carpenter + Carolyn Polyxena of Nassau-Usingen
| |
Thomas George Lyon-Bowes, Lord Glamis Augusta of Hesse-Cassel
+ Charlotte Grimstead + Adolphus, Duke of Cambridge
| |
Claude Bowes-Lyon, Earl of Strathmore Mary Adelaide, Princess
+ Francis Dora Smith + Francis Paul Charles, Duke of Teck
| |
Claude George Bowes-Lyon, Earl of Strathmore Mary of Teck
+ Cecilia Nina Cavendish-Bentinck + George V, King of England
| |
Elizabeth Agnela Marguerite Bowes-Lyon George VI, King of England
Hope that helps. I think David Webb may have highlighted the false line you were indicating.
Ian
----- Original Message -----
From: "D. Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 4:44 AM
Subject: Re: Queen Mother's Royal Descents
Hi Ian,
I like your database -- the look and feel of the results it spits out.
| 13th cousin from Sir George Douglas twice and seven times as 13th once
| removed:
1. You don't find a 12th cousins, once removed relationship between
George VI and the Queen Mother -- from George Douglas Master of Angus
and Elizabeth Drummond? Please clarify how your shortest descents run
from George Douglas Master of Angus and Elizabeth Drummond to George VI
and the Queen Mother.
<snip>
-
D. Spencer Hines
Re: Queen Mother's Royal Descents
Hi Ian,
Thanks. Very nice work -- it comes through perfectly on my monitor.
She was a wonderful presence, the Queen Mother, a Stalwart -- I miss
her.
I imagine quite a few folks here remember her as Queen during the
searing days of the Blitz.
No, the mistake in the line I was reporting on was a different one --
not the one David Webb reported.
After the very close relationship between Queen Victoria and Prince
Albert, first cousins, and the problems with hemophilia [which, of
course, did not stem from that] the Royals seem to have taken somewhat
more care in not marrying folks who are too closely related. Charles
and Diana are seventh cousins, once removed, as I recall.
That's probably close enough.
Cheers,
Spencer
""Ian Fettes"" <fettesi@st.net.au> wrote in message
news:02e201c485cd$b85f26d0$18d9f0dc@iandl3mr2dhbht...
| Hi Spencer,
|
| The following are the two 13th cousin descents I show from George
Douglas and Elizabeth Drummond. Titles and names shown may vary from
standard usage.
|
| View in fixed pitch font:
|
| 1st line
| George Douglas
| + Elizabeth Drummond
| ______________________________________________
| | |
| Janet Douglas Archibald Douglas, Earl
of Angus
| + John Lyon, Lord Glamis 6th + Margaret Tudor
| | |
| John Lyon, Lord Glamis 7th Margaret Douglas
| + Janet Keith + Matthew Stuart, Earl
of Lennox
| | |
| John Lyon, Lord Glamis 8th Henry Stuart, Lord
Darnley
| + Elizabeth Abernathy + Mary Stewart, Queen of
Scots
| | |
| Patrick Lyon, Earl of Kinghome 1st James I, King of England
| + Anne Murray + Anne of Denmark
| | |
| John Lyon, Earl of Kinghome 2nd Elizabeth Stuart
| + Elizabeth Maule + Freidrich V of Pfalz
| | |
| Patrick Lyon, Earl of Strathmore Sophia of Pfalz-Simmern
| + Helen Middleton + Ernst August of
Braunschweig
| | |
| John Lyon, Earl of Strathmore George I, King of England
| + Elizabeth Stanhope + Sophie Dorothea of
Celle
| | |
| Thomas Lyon, Earl of Strathmore George II, King of
England
| + Jean Nicholson + Wilhelmine of
Brandenburg-Ansbach
| | |
| John Lyon, Earl of Strathmore Frederick Louis, Prince
of Wales
| + Mary Eleanor Bowes + Augusta of
Sachen-Gotha
| | |
| Thomas Lyon-Bowes, Earl of Strathmore George III, King of
England
| + Mary Elizabeth Louisa Rodney Carpenter + Sophie Charlotte of
Mecklenburg- Streilitz
| | |
| Thomas George Lyon-Bowes, Lord Glamis Adolphus, Duke of
Cambridge
| + Charlotte Grimstead + Augusta of
Hesse-Cassel
| | |
| Claude Bowes-Lyon, Earl of Strathmore Mary Adelaide, Princess
| + Francis Dora Smith + Francis Paul Charles,
Duke of Teck
| | |
| Claude George Bowes-Lyon, Earl of Strathmore Mary of Teck
| + Cecilia Nina Cavendish-Bentinck + George V, King of
England
| | |
| Elizabeth Agnela Marguerite Bowes-Lyon George VI, King of
England
|
| 2nd line as above until:
|
| Thomas Lyon, Earl of Strathmore George II, King of
England
| + Jean Nicholson + Wilhelmine of
Brandenburg-Ansbach
| | |
| John Lyon, Earl of Strathmore Mary of Hanover
| + Mary Eleanor Bowes + Frederik II of
Hesse-Cassel
| | |
| Thomas Lyon-Bowes, Earl of Strathmore Friedrich of
Hessel-Cassel
| + Mary Elizabeth Louisa Rodney Carpenter + Carolyn Polyxena of
Nassau-Usingen
| | |
| Thomas George Lyon-Bowes, Lord Glamis Augusta of Hesse-Cassel
| + Charlotte Grimstead + Adolphus, Duke of
Cambridge
| | |
| Claude Bowes-Lyon, Earl of Strathmore Mary Adelaide, Princess
| + Francis Dora Smith + Francis Paul Charles,
Duke of Teck
| | |
| Claude George Bowes-Lyon, Earl of Strathmore Mary of Teck
| + Cecilia Nina Cavendish-Bentinck + George V, King of
England
| | |
| Elizabeth Agnela Marguerite Bowes-Lyon George VI, King of
England
|
|
| Hope that helps. I think David Webb may have highlighted the false
line you were indicating.
|
| Ian
Thanks. Very nice work -- it comes through perfectly on my monitor.
She was a wonderful presence, the Queen Mother, a Stalwart -- I miss
her.
I imagine quite a few folks here remember her as Queen during the
searing days of the Blitz.
No, the mistake in the line I was reporting on was a different one --
not the one David Webb reported.
After the very close relationship between Queen Victoria and Prince
Albert, first cousins, and the problems with hemophilia [which, of
course, did not stem from that] the Royals seem to have taken somewhat
more care in not marrying folks who are too closely related. Charles
and Diana are seventh cousins, once removed, as I recall.
That's probably close enough.
Cheers,
Spencer
""Ian Fettes"" <fettesi@st.net.au> wrote in message
news:02e201c485cd$b85f26d0$18d9f0dc@iandl3mr2dhbht...
| Hi Spencer,
|
| The following are the two 13th cousin descents I show from George
Douglas and Elizabeth Drummond. Titles and names shown may vary from
standard usage.
|
| View in fixed pitch font:
|
| 1st line
| George Douglas
| + Elizabeth Drummond
| ______________________________________________
| | |
| Janet Douglas Archibald Douglas, Earl
of Angus
| + John Lyon, Lord Glamis 6th + Margaret Tudor
| | |
| John Lyon, Lord Glamis 7th Margaret Douglas
| + Janet Keith + Matthew Stuart, Earl
of Lennox
| | |
| John Lyon, Lord Glamis 8th Henry Stuart, Lord
Darnley
| + Elizabeth Abernathy + Mary Stewart, Queen of
Scots
| | |
| Patrick Lyon, Earl of Kinghome 1st James I, King of England
| + Anne Murray + Anne of Denmark
| | |
| John Lyon, Earl of Kinghome 2nd Elizabeth Stuart
| + Elizabeth Maule + Freidrich V of Pfalz
| | |
| Patrick Lyon, Earl of Strathmore Sophia of Pfalz-Simmern
| + Helen Middleton + Ernst August of
Braunschweig
| | |
| John Lyon, Earl of Strathmore George I, King of England
| + Elizabeth Stanhope + Sophie Dorothea of
Celle
| | |
| Thomas Lyon, Earl of Strathmore George II, King of
England
| + Jean Nicholson + Wilhelmine of
Brandenburg-Ansbach
| | |
| John Lyon, Earl of Strathmore Frederick Louis, Prince
of Wales
| + Mary Eleanor Bowes + Augusta of
Sachen-Gotha
| | |
| Thomas Lyon-Bowes, Earl of Strathmore George III, King of
England
| + Mary Elizabeth Louisa Rodney Carpenter + Sophie Charlotte of
Mecklenburg- Streilitz
| | |
| Thomas George Lyon-Bowes, Lord Glamis Adolphus, Duke of
Cambridge
| + Charlotte Grimstead + Augusta of
Hesse-Cassel
| | |
| Claude Bowes-Lyon, Earl of Strathmore Mary Adelaide, Princess
| + Francis Dora Smith + Francis Paul Charles,
Duke of Teck
| | |
| Claude George Bowes-Lyon, Earl of Strathmore Mary of Teck
| + Cecilia Nina Cavendish-Bentinck + George V, King of
England
| | |
| Elizabeth Agnela Marguerite Bowes-Lyon George VI, King of
England
|
| 2nd line as above until:
|
| Thomas Lyon, Earl of Strathmore George II, King of
England
| + Jean Nicholson + Wilhelmine of
Brandenburg-Ansbach
| | |
| John Lyon, Earl of Strathmore Mary of Hanover
| + Mary Eleanor Bowes + Frederik II of
Hesse-Cassel
| | |
| Thomas Lyon-Bowes, Earl of Strathmore Friedrich of
Hessel-Cassel
| + Mary Elizabeth Louisa Rodney Carpenter + Carolyn Polyxena of
Nassau-Usingen
| | |
| Thomas George Lyon-Bowes, Lord Glamis Augusta of Hesse-Cassel
| + Charlotte Grimstead + Adolphus, Duke of
Cambridge
| | |
| Claude Bowes-Lyon, Earl of Strathmore Mary Adelaide, Princess
| + Francis Dora Smith + Francis Paul Charles,
Duke of Teck
| | |
| Claude George Bowes-Lyon, Earl of Strathmore Mary of Teck
| + Cecilia Nina Cavendish-Bentinck + George V, King of
England
| | |
| Elizabeth Agnela Marguerite Bowes-Lyon George VI, King of
England
|
|
| Hope that helps. I think David Webb may have highlighted the false
line you were indicating.
|
| Ian
-
David Webb
Re: Queen Mother's Royal Descents
I have a 34C4R relationship by common descent from Charlemagne:
Relationship Chart
George VI Of Great Britain is the 32nd Cousin 4 times removed of Queen
Mother Elizabeth Angela Marguerite Bowes-Lyon
Common Ancestor
* Emperor Charlemagne Of The Holy Roman Empire
* Hildegard
|
----------------------------------------
| |
| |
* King Louis I The Pious Of France , Holy Roman Emperor * King Pippin Of
Italy
Judith $B!I(BThe Fair$B!I(B Of Bavaria
Married Feb 819
| |
| |
Eberhard Of Friuli * King Bernard Of Italy
* Gisela Of The Holy Roman Empire Kunigunde
| |
| |
* King Berengar I Of Italy * Pippin
Bertila Of Spoleto
| |
| |
Adalbert I, Count Of Ivrea * Herbert (Heribert) I, Count Of
Vermandois
* Gisela Of Italy Beatrice Of Morvois
| |
| |
* King Berengar II Of Italy King Robert I Of France
Willa Of Tuscany * Beatrix Of Vermandois
| |
| |
Arnold Ii, Count Of Flanders * Hugh The Great Of France , Count
Of Paris
* Rosala (Susanna) Of Italy Hedwig Of Saxony
| |
| |
* Baldwin Iv, Count Of Flanders * King Hugh Capet Of France
Eleanor Of Normandy Adelaide Of Aquitaine
| |
| |
Guelph IV Of Bavaria 1070-1101 * King Robert II The Pious Of
France
* Judith Of Flanders Constance Of Provence
| |
| |
* Henry IX The Black, Duke Of Bavaria 1120-1126 * King Henry I Of France
Wulfhild Of Saxony Anna Of Kiev
| |
| |
* Henry X The Proud, Duke Of Bavaria 1126-1139 * King Philip I Of France
| |
| |
* Heinrich V The Lion, Duke Of Saxony 1142-1195 And Bavaria * King Louis VI
Of France
Matilda England Adelaide Of Savoy
Married 1 Feb 1168
| |
| |
* Henry I, Count Of The Rhine 1195-1227 * King Louis VII Of France
Agnes Von Hohenstaufen Adelaide (Alix) De Champagne
| |
| |
Otto Ii, Duke Of Bavaria 1231-1253 * King Philip II Augustus
France
* Agnes Of The Rhine Isabella Of Hainault
| |
| |
* Ludwig Ii, Duke Of Bavaria 1253-1294 * King Louis VIII Of France
Mathilde Von Habsburg Blanche Of Castile
| |
| |
* Emperor Ludwig IV Of Bavaria , Holy Roman Emperor * King (St) Louis IX Of
France
Margaret Of Hainault Margaret Of Provence
| |
| |
* Albert, Count Of Holland, Zeeland And Hainault * King Philip III The Bold
Of France
Isabella Of Aragon
| |
| |
Albert Iv, Duke Of Austria * King Philip IV The Fair Of
France
* Johanna-Sofia Of Bavaria Joan (Jeanne) Of Champagne , Queen Of
Navarre
| |
| |
* Albrecht V-Ii, King Of Hungary King Edward II Of England
Elisabeth Of Luxembourg * Isabella The Fair Of France
Married Abt 25 Jan 1308
| |
| |
King Casimir IV Jagiello Of Poland 1445-1492 * King Edward III Of England
* Elisabeth Of Austria Philippa Of Hainault
Married 24 Jan 1328
| |
| |
George, Duke Of Saxony * Thomas Of Woodstock, 1St Duke Of
Gloucester
* Barbara Of Poland Eleanor De Bohun
Married 1374
| |
| |
Joachim II Hektor, Elector Of Brandenburg 1535-1571 Sir William Bourchier ,
Comte D'eu
* Magdalena Of Saxony * Anne Gloucester , Countess Of
Buckingham And Essex
Married Abt 1408
| |
| |
* Johann Georg, Elector Of Brandenburg 1571-1598 * William Bourchier , 1St
Baron Fitzwarine
Elisabeth Von Anhalt-Zerbst
| |
| |
* Joachim Ernst, Margrave Of Brandenburg-Ansbach * Fulke Bourchier , 2Nd
Lord Fitzwarine
| |
| |
* Albrecht, Margrave Of Brandenburg-Ansbach Edward Stanhope Of Rampton
* Elizabeth Bourchier
| |
| |
* Johann Friedrich, Margrave Of Brandenburg-Ansbach Edward Seymour , 1St
Duke Of Somerset
Eleonore Erdmuthe Louise Of Saxe-Eisenach * Anne Stanhope
| |
| |
King * George II Augustus Of Great Britain * Edward Seymour , 1St Earl Of
Hertford
* Wilhelmina Charlotte *Caroline Of Brandenburg-Ansbach Lady Catherine Grey
Married 22 Aug 1705 Married Abt Nov 1560
| |
| |
* *Frederick Louis Of Great Britain * Edward Seymour , Lord
Beauchamp
Augusta Of Saxe-Gotha-Altenburg Honora Rogers
Married 8 May 1736 Married 1 Jul 1582
| |
| |
* King George III Of Great Britain * William Seymour , 2Nd Duke Of
Somerset
Lady Frances Devereux
Married 1616-1617
| |
| |
* Edward Of Great Britain Charles Boyle , Lord Clifford Of
Lanesborough, Viscount Dungarva
* Lady Jane Seymour
Married 7 May 1661
| |
| |
* Victoria Of Great Britain * Charles Boyle , 3Rd Earl Of Cork, 2Nd
Earl Of Burlington
Juliana Noel
Married 26 Jan 1688
| |
| |
* Edward VII Of Great Britain * Richard Boyle 4th Earl Of Cork, 3Rd
Earl Of Burlington
Lady Dorothy Savile
Married 21 Mar 1721
| |
| |
* George V Of Great Britain William Cavendish , 4Th Duke Of
Devonshire
* Charlotte Elizabeth Boyle Baroness
Clifford
Married 27 Mar 1748
| |
| |
* George VI Of Great Britain William Henry Cavendish-Bentinck , 3Rd
Duke Of Portland
* Lady Dorothy Cavendish
Married 8 Nov 1766
|
|
* Lord William Charles Augustus
Cavendish-Bentinck
Anne Wellesley
Married 23 Jul 1816
|
|
* Revd Charles William Frederick
Cavendish-Bentinck
Carolina Louisa Burnaby
Married 13 Dec 1859
|
|
Claude George Bowes-Lyon , 14Th Earl Of
Strathmore And Kinghorne
* Nina Cecila
Cavendish-Bentinck
Married 16 Jul 1881
|
|
* Queen Mother Elizabeth Angela
Marguerite Bowes-Lyon
Relationship Chart
George VI Of Great Britain is the 32nd Cousin 4 times removed of Queen
Mother Elizabeth Angela Marguerite Bowes-Lyon
Common Ancestor
* Emperor Charlemagne Of The Holy Roman Empire
* Hildegard
|
----------------------------------------
| |
| |
* King Louis I The Pious Of France , Holy Roman Emperor * King Pippin Of
Italy
Judith $B!I(BThe Fair$B!I(B Of Bavaria
Married Feb 819
| |
| |
Eberhard Of Friuli * King Bernard Of Italy
* Gisela Of The Holy Roman Empire Kunigunde
| |
| |
* King Berengar I Of Italy * Pippin
Bertila Of Spoleto
| |
| |
Adalbert I, Count Of Ivrea * Herbert (Heribert) I, Count Of
Vermandois
* Gisela Of Italy Beatrice Of Morvois
| |
| |
* King Berengar II Of Italy King Robert I Of France
Willa Of Tuscany * Beatrix Of Vermandois
| |
| |
Arnold Ii, Count Of Flanders * Hugh The Great Of France , Count
Of Paris
* Rosala (Susanna) Of Italy Hedwig Of Saxony
| |
| |
* Baldwin Iv, Count Of Flanders * King Hugh Capet Of France
Eleanor Of Normandy Adelaide Of Aquitaine
| |
| |
Guelph IV Of Bavaria 1070-1101 * King Robert II The Pious Of
France
* Judith Of Flanders Constance Of Provence
| |
| |
* Henry IX The Black, Duke Of Bavaria 1120-1126 * King Henry I Of France
Wulfhild Of Saxony Anna Of Kiev
| |
| |
* Henry X The Proud, Duke Of Bavaria 1126-1139 * King Philip I Of France
| |
| |
* Heinrich V The Lion, Duke Of Saxony 1142-1195 And Bavaria * King Louis VI
Of France
Matilda England Adelaide Of Savoy
Married 1 Feb 1168
| |
| |
* Henry I, Count Of The Rhine 1195-1227 * King Louis VII Of France
Agnes Von Hohenstaufen Adelaide (Alix) De Champagne
| |
| |
Otto Ii, Duke Of Bavaria 1231-1253 * King Philip II Augustus
France
* Agnes Of The Rhine Isabella Of Hainault
| |
| |
* Ludwig Ii, Duke Of Bavaria 1253-1294 * King Louis VIII Of France
Mathilde Von Habsburg Blanche Of Castile
| |
| |
* Emperor Ludwig IV Of Bavaria , Holy Roman Emperor * King (St) Louis IX Of
France
Margaret Of Hainault Margaret Of Provence
| |
| |
* Albert, Count Of Holland, Zeeland And Hainault * King Philip III The Bold
Of France
Isabella Of Aragon
| |
| |
Albert Iv, Duke Of Austria * King Philip IV The Fair Of
France
* Johanna-Sofia Of Bavaria Joan (Jeanne) Of Champagne , Queen Of
Navarre
| |
| |
* Albrecht V-Ii, King Of Hungary King Edward II Of England
Elisabeth Of Luxembourg * Isabella The Fair Of France
Married Abt 25 Jan 1308
| |
| |
King Casimir IV Jagiello Of Poland 1445-1492 * King Edward III Of England
* Elisabeth Of Austria Philippa Of Hainault
Married 24 Jan 1328
| |
| |
George, Duke Of Saxony * Thomas Of Woodstock, 1St Duke Of
Gloucester
* Barbara Of Poland Eleanor De Bohun
Married 1374
| |
| |
Joachim II Hektor, Elector Of Brandenburg 1535-1571 Sir William Bourchier ,
Comte D'eu
* Magdalena Of Saxony * Anne Gloucester , Countess Of
Buckingham And Essex
Married Abt 1408
| |
| |
* Johann Georg, Elector Of Brandenburg 1571-1598 * William Bourchier , 1St
Baron Fitzwarine
Elisabeth Von Anhalt-Zerbst
| |
| |
* Joachim Ernst, Margrave Of Brandenburg-Ansbach * Fulke Bourchier , 2Nd
Lord Fitzwarine
| |
| |
* Albrecht, Margrave Of Brandenburg-Ansbach Edward Stanhope Of Rampton
* Elizabeth Bourchier
| |
| |
* Johann Friedrich, Margrave Of Brandenburg-Ansbach Edward Seymour , 1St
Duke Of Somerset
Eleonore Erdmuthe Louise Of Saxe-Eisenach * Anne Stanhope
| |
| |
King * George II Augustus Of Great Britain * Edward Seymour , 1St Earl Of
Hertford
* Wilhelmina Charlotte *Caroline Of Brandenburg-Ansbach Lady Catherine Grey
Married 22 Aug 1705 Married Abt Nov 1560
| |
| |
* *Frederick Louis Of Great Britain * Edward Seymour , Lord
Beauchamp
Augusta Of Saxe-Gotha-Altenburg Honora Rogers
Married 8 May 1736 Married 1 Jul 1582
| |
| |
* King George III Of Great Britain * William Seymour , 2Nd Duke Of
Somerset
Lady Frances Devereux
Married 1616-1617
| |
| |
* Edward Of Great Britain Charles Boyle , Lord Clifford Of
Lanesborough, Viscount Dungarva
* Lady Jane Seymour
Married 7 May 1661
| |
| |
* Victoria Of Great Britain * Charles Boyle , 3Rd Earl Of Cork, 2Nd
Earl Of Burlington
Juliana Noel
Married 26 Jan 1688
| |
| |
* Edward VII Of Great Britain * Richard Boyle 4th Earl Of Cork, 3Rd
Earl Of Burlington
Lady Dorothy Savile
Married 21 Mar 1721
| |
| |
* George V Of Great Britain William Cavendish , 4Th Duke Of
Devonshire
* Charlotte Elizabeth Boyle Baroness
Clifford
Married 27 Mar 1748
| |
| |
* George VI Of Great Britain William Henry Cavendish-Bentinck , 3Rd
Duke Of Portland
* Lady Dorothy Cavendish
Married 8 Nov 1766
|
|
* Lord William Charles Augustus
Cavendish-Bentinck
Anne Wellesley
Married 23 Jul 1816
|
|
* Revd Charles William Frederick
Cavendish-Bentinck
Carolina Louisa Burnaby
Married 13 Dec 1859
|
|
Claude George Bowes-Lyon , 14Th Earl Of
Strathmore And Kinghorne
* Nina Cecila
Cavendish-Bentinck
Married 16 Jul 1881
|
|
* Queen Mother Elizabeth Angela
Marguerite Bowes-Lyon
-
Bronwen Edwards
Re: Queen Mother royal descent
"John Steele Gordon" <ancestry@optonline.net> wrote in message news:<P5KUc.23756$vc4.8970067@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>...
In my opinion, you are confusing sovereignty with nationhood. It is
sovereignty that survives while nationhood is a more fluid thing that
can and does change with borders, wars, treaties, etc. In regard to
Poland, the target of many conquests and non-Polish regimes, you need
only ask if there is a Poland and Polish people in their homeland in
2004. Another example closer to home for those of us in the US is that
of indigenous American nations. 372 treaties with the US federal
government acknowledge the sovereignty of these nations as superior to
that of the individual states. A rule of international law regularly
invoked by Indian law specialists is that all sovereign powers are
retained except those given up through negotiated treaties and those
assumed by Congress. The constitutional question regarding the power
of Congress to assume these powers is merely that Congress has the
power to regulate trade between the US and foreign nations, between
the individual states, and between the US and the Native American
nations. Numerous Supreme Court decisions have confirmed this. A
nation is the result of the exercise of sovereign powers. These powers
may be treated individually without affecting the sovereignty of the
nations (or tribes) involved. As an aside, my ancestor, the O'Brien
king in question, is rousing himself from his grave and he looks like
he means business. :+\ Best, Bronwen
A conqueror can indeed extinguish sovereignty--just ask Poland in the 19th
century. But, as the British found out with Ireland, as Spain found out
with the Netherlands, and the world found out with the Jews, it cannot
extinguish a sense of nationhood, a sense of being a people.
In my opinion, you are confusing sovereignty with nationhood. It is
sovereignty that survives while nationhood is a more fluid thing that
can and does change with borders, wars, treaties, etc. In regard to
Poland, the target of many conquests and non-Polish regimes, you need
only ask if there is a Poland and Polish people in their homeland in
2004. Another example closer to home for those of us in the US is that
of indigenous American nations. 372 treaties with the US federal
government acknowledge the sovereignty of these nations as superior to
that of the individual states. A rule of international law regularly
invoked by Indian law specialists is that all sovereign powers are
retained except those given up through negotiated treaties and those
assumed by Congress. The constitutional question regarding the power
of Congress to assume these powers is merely that Congress has the
power to regulate trade between the US and foreign nations, between
the individual states, and between the US and the Native American
nations. Numerous Supreme Court decisions have confirmed this. A
nation is the result of the exercise of sovereign powers. These powers
may be treated individually without affecting the sovereignty of the
nations (or tribes) involved. As an aside, my ancestor, the O'Brien
king in question, is rousing himself from his grave and he looks like
he means business. :+\ Best, Bronwen
-
John Steele Gordon
Re: Queen Mother royal descent
"Bronwen Edwards" <lostcooper@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:54ca55f1.0408192322.d6d3923@posting.google.com...
[snip a lot of irrelevant stuff about American Indians]
Try looking in a dictionary for the meanings of words. They mean what they
mean, not what you want them to mean for the sake of loony-tunes politics.
JSG
news:54ca55f1.0408192322.d6d3923@posting.google.com...
"John Steele Gordon" <ancestry@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:<P5KUc.23756$vc4.8970067@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>...
A conqueror can indeed extinguish sovereignty--just ask Poland in the
19th
century. But, as the British found out with Ireland, as Spain found out
with the Netherlands, and the world found out with the Jews, it cannot
extinguish a sense of nationhood, a sense of being a people.
In my opinion, you are confusing sovereignty with nationhood. It is
sovereignty that survives while nationhood is a more fluid thing that
can and does change with borders, wars, treaties, etc. In regard to
Poland, the target of many conquests and non-Polish regimes, you need
only ask if there is a Poland and Polish people in their homeland in
2004.
[snip a lot of irrelevant stuff about American Indians]
Try looking in a dictionary for the meanings of words. They mean what they
mean, not what you want them to mean for the sake of loony-tunes politics.
JSG
-
siabair ~^~
Re: Queen Mother royal descent
Bronwen Edwards wrote:
The status of Conor O Brien is not dependent on either of these. Ireland
was a nation from the 7th century onwards (a common language, origin
legend, law, etc) and a sixteenth century O Brien chief would have had
quite a measure of sovereignty within his lordship. To get down to
specifics, Conor O Brien obit 1496 (the father/uncle of the Conor we are
considering?) is styled tigearna Tuathmhumhan (Lord of Thomond) in a
brehon-charter (source: 'From Kings to Warlords' by Katharine Simms, page
39, note 104).
While on the subject of O Briens, I would add that Brian Boru has been
incredibly puffed up as a result of past historians uncritical reading of
the twelfth century O Brien propaganda tract Cogad Gaedhil re Gallaibh (The
War of the Irish and the Foreigners).
--
siabair (Old Irish) /shabba/ = 'ghost', 'phantom', 'spectre'
In my opinion, you are confusing sovereignty with nationhood.
The status of Conor O Brien is not dependent on either of these. Ireland
was a nation from the 7th century onwards (a common language, origin
legend, law, etc) and a sixteenth century O Brien chief would have had
quite a measure of sovereignty within his lordship. To get down to
specifics, Conor O Brien obit 1496 (the father/uncle of the Conor we are
considering?) is styled tigearna Tuathmhumhan (Lord of Thomond) in a
brehon-charter (source: 'From Kings to Warlords' by Katharine Simms, page
39, note 104).
While on the subject of O Briens, I would add that Brian Boru has been
incredibly puffed up as a result of past historians uncritical reading of
the twelfth century O Brien propaganda tract Cogad Gaedhil re Gallaibh (The
War of the Irish and the Foreigners).
--
siabair (Old Irish) /shabba/ = 'ghost', 'phantom', 'spectre'
-
D. Spencer Hines
Re: Queen Mother Royal Descent
Charming!
Prescriptivism is alive and well in Gotham City -- in some quarters.
DSH
"John Steele Gordon" <ancestry@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:S7mVc.36746$vc4.15928305@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...
|
| "Bronwen Edwards" <lostcooper@yahoo.com> wrote in message
| news:54ca55f1.0408192322.d6d3923@posting.google.com...
| > "John Steele Gordon" <ancestry@optonline.net> wrote in message
| news:<P5KUc.23756$vc4.8970067@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>...
| > > > A conqueror can indeed extinguish sovereignty--just ask Poland
in the
| 19th
| > > century. But, as the British found out with Ireland, as Spain
found out
| > > with the Netherlands, and the world found out with the Jews, it
cannot
| > > extinguish a sense of nationhood, a sense of being a people.
| > >
| >
| > In my opinion, you are confusing sovereignty with nationhood. It is
| > sovereignty that survives while nationhood is a more fluid thing
that
| > can and does change with borders, wars, treaties, etc. In regard to
| > Poland, the target of many conquests and non-Polish regimes, you
need
| > only ask if there is a Poland and Polish people in their homeland in
| > 2004.
|
| [snip a lot of irrelevant stuff about American Indians]
|
| Try looking in a dictionary for the meanings of words. They mean what
they
| mean, not what you want them to mean for the sake of loony-tunes
politics.
|
| JSG
Prescriptivism is alive and well in Gotham City -- in some quarters.
DSH
"John Steele Gordon" <ancestry@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:S7mVc.36746$vc4.15928305@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...
|
| "Bronwen Edwards" <lostcooper@yahoo.com> wrote in message
| news:54ca55f1.0408192322.d6d3923@posting.google.com...
| > "John Steele Gordon" <ancestry@optonline.net> wrote in message
| news:<P5KUc.23756$vc4.8970067@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>...
| > > > A conqueror can indeed extinguish sovereignty--just ask Poland
in the
| 19th
| > > century. But, as the British found out with Ireland, as Spain
found out
| > > with the Netherlands, and the world found out with the Jews, it
cannot
| > > extinguish a sense of nationhood, a sense of being a people.
| > >
| >
| > In my opinion, you are confusing sovereignty with nationhood. It is
| > sovereignty that survives while nationhood is a more fluid thing
that
| > can and does change with borders, wars, treaties, etc. In regard to
| > Poland, the target of many conquests and non-Polish regimes, you
need
| > only ask if there is a Poland and Polish people in their homeland in
| > 2004.
|
| [snip a lot of irrelevant stuff about American Indians]
|
| Try looking in a dictionary for the meanings of words. They mean what
they
| mean, not what you want them to mean for the sake of loony-tunes
politics.
|
| JSG