Irmgard von Pfirt, daughter of Gf Thiebald von Pfirt?

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F.Tavares de Almeida

Irmgard von Pfirt, daughter of Gf Thiebald von Pfirt?

Legg inn av F.Tavares de Almeida » 14 aug 2004 01:46:23

It is generally accepted that Gf Eberhard II. "Der Alte" von Landau,
living 1340, married abt. 1303, Irmgard (Irmingart) von Pfirt (or
Irmel de Ferette) born abt. 1274 at Pfirt (Ferette).

Supposely Irmgard was a daughter of Thiebald von Pfirt, mentioned
since 1271 as Graf von Pfirt, he died in Basel between 4.12.1310 and
7.2.1311 and was married first before 1273 with Catharina von Klingen
(daughter of Walter von Klingen) , widow of Rudolf von Lichtenberg,
she died 1296; (second he was married before 1305 with Margarete von
Blamont, widow of Jean von Burgund-Ivrea, she died 1343).

This filiation is supported by
Detlev Schwennicke:
Europäische Stammtafeln.
BAND I, Teil 2:
Przemysliden, Askanier, Herzoge von Lothringen,
die Häuser Hessen, Württemberg und Zähringen
Frankfurt a.M.: Klostermann Verlag.

However Mr. Paul Theroff, only lists as sons of Thiebald I.:
1. Gf Ulrich III., von Pfirt.
2. Thiebald, + bef. 1312.
3. Johann, Herr von Rougemont (1291/99).
4. Herzelinde, + 1317; m. Otto von Ochsenstein.
5. Sophie, + 25.3.1344 ; m. Gf Ulrich III. von Württemberg.

Directly questioned, mr. Theroff wrote:
"Europäische Stammtafeln, Band I.2, Tafel 226, lists Irmgard as
probable daughter of Thiebald Graf von Pfirt and of his first wife,
Katharina von Klingen.
However, the way they present it makes it appear that there is some
doubt about her exact parentage."

I am a descendent of Eberhard II. and Irmgard and I live in a small
village of Portugal with the Net as only way of research.
Therefore, I would appreciate an opinion of any knowing gentlemen
- not excluding mr. Van de Pas who only gives 3 children to Theobald
I. - about this (very) week link.

It is always possible that she was a bastard daughter - or a niece by
a half brother - of Gf Thiebald but more remote connections seem less
probable considering that she did married Gf Eberhard and, if that
marriage was much below his rank, it was only natural that it was
recorded and known nowadays. In the limit I think it is highly
improbable that she could be any "Irmgard aus Pfirt".

1. Any other information is known about Irmgard's parentage?
2. If not, it would be considered acceptable that I will list her in
my tree as a possible daughter of Gf Thiebald, probable grandaughter
of Gf Ulrich II. and very probable grandgrandaughter of Gf Friedrich
II. ?

Greetings from Portugal
Francisco Tavares de Almeida

Leo van de Pas

Re: Irmgard von Pfirt, daughter of Gf Thiebald von Pfirt?

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 14 aug 2004 10:46:58

Dear Francisco,

I think Paul Theroff has been very thorough with his reply. I can only agree
with him.

In ES III band 1 Tafel 46 she is mentioned also as a possible daughter of
Thiebald von Pfirt.

I think that what is needed is proof and that for all kinds of reasons they
believe but do not want to commit themselves. Taking into account her
marriage partner, I doubt she is illegitimate.

If I were you, I would record in a footnote that she probably is a daughter
of Thiebald and Catharina von Klingen. Hopefully one day better proof may be
found.
With best wishes,
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia


----- Original Message -----
From: "F.Tavares de Almeida" <ftalmeida@mail.telepac.pt>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2004 9:46 AM
Subject: Irmgard von Pfirt, daughter of Gf Thiebald von Pfirt?


It is generally accepted that Gf Eberhard II. "Der Alte" von Landau,
living 1340, married abt. 1303, Irmgard (Irmingart) von Pfirt (or
Irmel de Ferette) born abt. 1274 at Pfirt (Ferette).

Supposely Irmgard was a daughter of Thiebald von Pfirt, mentioned
since 1271 as Graf von Pfirt, he died in Basel between 4.12.1310 and
7.2.1311 and was married first before 1273 with Catharina von Klingen
(daughter of Walter von Klingen) , widow of Rudolf von Lichtenberg,
she died 1296; (second he was married before 1305 with Margarete von
Blamont, widow of Jean von Burgund-Ivrea, she died 1343).

This filiation is supported by
Detlev Schwennicke:
Europäische Stammtafeln.
BAND I, Teil 2:
Przemysliden, Askanier, Herzoge von Lothringen,
die Häuser Hessen, Württemberg und Zähringen
Frankfurt a.M.: Klostermann Verlag.

However Mr. Paul Theroff, only lists as sons of Thiebald I.:
1. Gf Ulrich III., von Pfirt.
2. Thiebald, + bef. 1312.
3. Johann, Herr von Rougemont (1291/99).
4. Herzelinde, + 1317; m. Otto von Ochsenstein.
5. Sophie, + 25.3.1344 ; m. Gf Ulrich III. von Württemberg.

Directly questioned, mr. Theroff wrote:
"Europäische Stammtafeln, Band I.2, Tafel 226, lists Irmgard as
probable daughter of Thiebald Graf von Pfirt and of his first wife,
Katharina von Klingen.
However, the way they present it makes it appear that there is some
doubt about her exact parentage."

I am a descendent of Eberhard II. and Irmgard and I live in a small
village of Portugal with the Net as only way of research.
Therefore, I would appreciate an opinion of any knowing gentlemen
- not excluding mr. Van de Pas who only gives 3 children to Theobald
I. - about this (very) week link.

It is always possible that she was a bastard daughter - or a niece by
a half brother - of Gf Thiebald but more remote connections seem less
probable considering that she did married Gf Eberhard and, if that
marriage was much below his rank, it was only natural that it was
recorded and known nowadays. In the limit I think it is highly
improbable that she could be any "Irmgard aus Pfirt".

1. Any other information is known about Irmgard's parentage?
2. If not, it would be considered acceptable that I will list her in
my tree as a possible daughter of Gf Thiebald, probable grandaughter
of Gf Ulrich II. and very probable grandgrandaughter of Gf Friedrich
II. ?

Greetings from Portugal
Francisco Tavares de Almeida


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