Juhel Berenger, count of Rennes

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Stewart Baldwin

Juhel Berenger, count of Rennes

Legg inn av Stewart Baldwin » 13 aug 2004 05:45:47

In looking at the family of count Conan I of Rennes (d. 992), an
ancestor of William the Conqueror (through his daughter Judith, wife
of Richard II of Normandy), the documentation for his wife, children,
and father count Juhel Berengar of Rennes are routine. I have seen it
claimed that Juhel Berengar was a son of the Breton count Berengar who
appears in the records in the 940's (e.g., in Flodoard's chronicle
under the year 944), but the only sources I have seen for this fail to
be contemporary by many hundreds of years. One of the sources for the
parentage of Conan, a contemporary papal letter of John XIII
(965-972), names two of the Breton leaders as "Berengarius" and his
son "Conatus" [PL 135, 990; the other two named are Hoel and his
brother Guerech].

Thus, Juhel Berengar was called by only the name Berengar in at least
one good source, and it does not seem like a chronological stretch to
suggest the possibility that the Berengar of 944 in Flodoard's annals
was the same person as Juhel Berengar (even if we accept appearances
of Berengar back to ca. 930 in sources less solid that Flodoard).
This brings up two questions:

1. What proof is there that the Berengar of 944 was a distinct person
from Juhel Berengar, father of Conan?

2. In the event that Question 1 can be answered with clear proof that
the two were distinct, is there any solid evidence that Juhel Berengar
was the son of Berengar?

Although I have easy access to many of the relevant primary sources
(largely via Gallica), the same is not true for the recent scholarly
literature on these individuals. From reading earlier postings on the
subject of Juhel Berengar's ancestry, and looking at the number of
different theories, I gather that the claim of connections between
Berengar and earlier Breton rulers (usually with Judicaël, maternal
grandson of Erispoë) is conjectural rather than solid, but the
following question is at least worth asking.

3. Does the literature contain any reasonable leads for the origin of
Berengar, or are the various theories just based on guesswork?

Stewart Baldwin

Todd A. Farmerie

Re: Juhel Berenger, count of Rennes

Legg inn av Todd A. Farmerie » 14 aug 2004 08:04:16

Stewart Baldwin wrote:
In looking at the family of count Conan I of Rennes (d. 992), an
ancestor of William the Conqueror (through his daughter Judith, wife
of Richard II of Normandy), the documentation for his wife, children,
and father count Juhel Berengar of Rennes are routine. I have seen it
claimed that Juhel Berengar was a son of the Breton count Berengar who
appears in the records in the 940's (e.g., in Flodoard's chronicle
under the year 944), but the only sources I have seen for this fail to
be contemporary by many hundreds of years. One of the sources for the
parentage of Conan, a contemporary papal letter of John XIII
(965-972), names two of the Breton leaders as "Berengarius" and his
son "Conatus" [PL 135, 990; the other two named are Hoel and his
brother Guerech].

Thus, Juhel Berengar was called by only the name Berengar in at least
one good source, and it does not seem like a chronological stretch to
suggest the possibility that the Berengar of 944 in Flodoard's annals
was the same person as Juhel Berengar (even if we accept appearances
of Berengar back to ca. 930 in sources less solid that Flodoard).
This brings up two questions:

1. What proof is there that the Berengar of 944 was a distinct person
from Juhel Berengar, father of Conan?

I don't think there is any. Although you have to accept it for
the quality of the time, a review worth reading is:

Rene Merlet, "Origine de la Famille des Berenger comtes de Rennes
et ducs de Bretagne" in _Melanges d'Histoire du Moyen Age offerts
a M. Ferdinand Lot par ses amis et ses eleves_ Paris: Libraire
Ancienne Edouard Campion, 1925, pp. 549-561.

He interprets the records as indicating a single man, called
Judicael, Berenger or Judicael Berenger, was Count of Rennes
throughout the period 931-970. He explicitly mentions both
Flodoard and Pope John as refering to this dual-named man as
simply Berengar.

2. In the event that Question 1 can be answered with clear proof that
the two were distinct, is there any solid evidence that Juhel Berengar
was the son of Berengar?

Merlet reports that Pierre le Baud 'translated or summarized an
ancient text, since lost, in which the victor at Cancale (931)
was named "Juhael, le comte de Rennes, filz de Berenger".' He
does not go into detail, having published an article on the
subject the year before (1924) in _Memoires de la Soc. d'histoire
et d'arch. de Bretagne_. (Which I have not seen. I think it not
likely that le Baud or an earlier copyist was guilty of
inappropriate elaboration on the original _Judicaelus
Berengarius_.) Based on this, Merlet unhesitatingly describes
Judicael as son of count Berenger, but of the count Berenger of
the late 9th century (and perhaps early 10th), who appears to
have succeeded an earlier Judicael at Rennes, but who also
appears in the Bessin, Maine and perhaps Bayeux, suggesting that
his Breton holdings may have been the tip of the Neustrian iceberg.

Now an alternative interpretation appears in an old copy from an
unidentified older french source that suggests that the 931
Berenger was identical to the 889 one - it still makes the 970
Judicael Berenger the son fo the 889 berenger, the difference
being to whom the 931 occurance refers. The first I saw to
introduce an intervening two generations, making Judicael
Berenger (970) son of Berenger (931), in turn maternal grandson
of Berenger (889) was, IIRC, A. Chedeville and H. Guillotel, _La
Bretagne des saints et des rois Ve-Xe siecle_ (Ouest-France,
1984). I had little time with this work, but did not see any
argument presented for these identities/relationships. This was
the reconstruction later followed by Keats-Rohan.


Although I have easy access to many of the relevant primary sources
(largely via Gallica), the same is not true for the recent scholarly
literature on these individuals. From reading earlier postings on the
subject of Juhel Berengar's ancestry, and looking at the number of
different theories, I gather that the claim of connections between
Berengar and earlier Breton rulers (usually with Judicaël, maternal
grandson of Erispoë) is conjectural rather than solid, but the
following question is at least worth asking.

3. Does the literature contain any reasonable leads for the origin of
Berengar, or are the various theories just based on guesswork?

I cannot speak to the "931" Berengar, whose very existence seems
questionable, but I presume that his derivation from the earlier
Berenger is taken as a given, from the onomastics. Were we to
unite him with Judicael, the arguments, whatever they are, would
remain. (I don't recall where I saw it, but there has been some
recent speculation that a daughter of the elder Berengar married
a son of the older Breton house, giving rise to the younger
Berenger. This derives from two assumptions - that the elder
Berengar and his wife were both Franks, as required to explain
his name and Poppa's relationship to Senlis, and second that
there must have been an intermarriage to reintroduce the Breton
names.)

As to the elder Berenger, there seem to be two strains. The
first is represented by a genealogical document composed in 1070
at Angers. It reports that he is son of Pascweten and maternal
grandson of King Salomon. Le Baud, in his _Histoire de
Bretagne_, makes Berenger son of an otherwise unnown Salomon,
Count of Rennes, son of Count Moderand by a daughter of King
Salomon. Merlet suggests, perhaps charitably, that this may be
based on lost documents. He does, however, conclude that the
primary intent of these pedigrees is to connect, by any means
available, the house of Berenger to the earlier Kings, and he
puts little stock in them. The second strain, appears based on
the fact that Berenger succeeded Judicael, grandson of Erispoe.
Merlet mentions and dismisses the speculation that he was son or
son-in-law, for chronological and onomastic reasons, he then
suggests that he had married a sister (both due to the
succession, and to his naming his "son" Judicael Berengar). The
account given in Moriarty, from Winkhaus, appears to be a muddle
of these various pedigrees.

I have offered more smoke than light, I suspect.

taf

Stewart Baldwin

Re: Juhel Berenger, count of Rennes

Legg inn av Stewart Baldwin » 17 aug 2004 08:06:20

On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 00:04:16 -0600, "Todd A. Farmerie"
<farmerie@interfold.com> wrote:

Stewart Baldwin wrote:

[snip]

2. In the event that Question 1 can be answered with clear proof that
the two were distinct, is there any solid evidence that Juhel Berengar
was the son of Berengar?

Merlet reports that Pierre le Baud 'translated or summarized an
ancient text, since lost, in which the victor at Cancale (931)
was named "Juhael, le comte de Rennes, filz de Berenger".' ...

Merlet quotes the relevant passage in his edition of "Chronique de
Nantes" (available on Gallica) on pp. xliii-xliv. The passage refers
to events leading to the death of the Norse leader "Flestan", who is
evidently the Felecan of Flodoard's annals in the year 931, placing
the events in that year.

...He
does not go into detail, having published an article on the
subject the year before (1924) in _Memoires de la Soc. d'histoire
et d'arch. de Bretagne_. (Which I have not seen. I think it not
likely that le Baud or an earlier copyist was guilty of
inappropriate elaboration on the original _Judicaelus
Berengarius_.) ...

Did you mean to include the word "not" in that last sentence? Note
that the individual in question appears in two different ways in
Merlet's quote of Le Baud, once as "Juhaël, le comte de Rennes, fils
de Bérenger" and once as just "Juhaël Bérenger".

The only other primary source where I have seen Juhel as son of
Berebgar is in the published Redon cartulary (Courson, ed.,
"Cartulaire de l'Abbaye de Redon en Bretagne", also available on
Gallica), not in the cartulary itself, but from a late source (no
earlier than the seventeenth century) also published there, in a list
of benefactors (p. 444), which gives us "Juhael, Berengarii filius,
redonensis comes, Enesmur insulam, ubi monachilis obedienta staret,
anno 870, concessit." This source is not very reliable
genealogically, telling us, for example, that the killers and
successors of Salomon, "Pastheneten" (i.e., Pascweten) and Gurvant,
were sons of Nominoë (p. 443).

...Based on this, Merlet unhesitatingly describes
Judicael as son of count Berenger, but of the count Berenger of
the late 9th century (and perhaps early 10th), who appears to
have succeeded an earlier Judicael at Rennes, but who also
appears in the Bessin, Maine and perhaps Bayeux, suggesting that
his Breton holdings may have been the tip of the Neustrian iceberg.

I'm dubious about calling Conan's father "Judicaël" Berenger. The
names Juhel and Judicaël seem to be distinct. I have seen the form
Judicaël Berenger for Conan's father in only two of the early sources,
and both call him Juhel Berenger elsewhere. One is the Chronicle of
Nantes (edited by Merlet, mentioned above), which calls him Judicael
Berengar on page 113 (but one manuscript give "Juchael"), but Juhael
Berengar on page 108. The other is "Chronico Kemperlegiensi" [RHF 10,
294], which calls Conan "Conanus comes filius Judicaëlis Berengarii
Comitis Rhedonensis" but then calls Geoffrey "Gauffridus dux
Britanniæ, filius Conani, filii Juhaëlis Berengarii". Thus, since
other sources use the form Juhel (or variant spellings) Berengar, I am
inclined to accept the form "Juhel Berengar" as being correct.

Now an alternative interpretation appears in an old copy from an
unidentified older french source that suggests that the 931
Berenger was identical to the 889 one - it still makes the 970
Judicael Berenger the son fo the 889 berenger, the difference
being to whom the 931 occurance refers. The first I saw to
introduce an intervening two generations, making Judicael
Berenger (970) son of Berenger (931), in turn maternal grandson
of Berenger (889) was, IIRC, A. Chedeville and H. Guillotel, _La
Bretagne des saints et des rois Ve-Xe siecle_ (Ouest-France,
1984). I had little time with this work, but did not see any
argument presented for these identities/relationships. This was
the reconstruction later followed by Keats-Rohan.

[snip]

I guess we could add the following question to the three that I
already asked:

4. Is there any good primary evidence that any late NINTH century
Berengar had any specific Breton connection (as opposed to having some
sort of general jurisdiction that might have included Brittany)?

Stewart Baldwin

Todd A. Farmerie

Re: Juhel Berenger, count of Rennes

Legg inn av Todd A. Farmerie » 17 aug 2004 17:16:18

Stewart Baldwin wrote:
On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 00:04:16 -0600, "Todd A. Farmerie"
farmerie@interfold.com> wrote:


Stewart Baldwin wrote:


[snip]


2. In the event that Question 1 can be answered with clear proof that
the two were distinct, is there any solid evidence that Juhel Berengar
was the son of Berengar?

Merlet reports that Pierre le Baud 'translated or summarized an
ancient text, since lost, in which the victor at Cancale (931)
was named "Juhael, le comte de Rennes, filz de Berenger".' ...


Merlet quotes the relevant passage in his edition of "Chronique de
Nantes" (available on Gallica) on pp. xliii-xliv. The passage refers
to events leading to the death of the Norse leader "Flestan", who is
evidently the Felecan of Flodoard's annals in the year 931, placing
the events in that year.


...He
does not go into detail, having published an article on the
subject the year before (1924) in _Memoires de la Soc. d'histoire
et d'arch. de Bretagne_. (Which I have not seen. I think it not
likely that le Baud or an earlier copyist was guilty of
inappropriate elaboration on the original _Judicaelus
Berengarius_.) ...


Did you mean to include the word "not" in that last sentence?

Yes, but I meant to follow it with an un-

...Based on this, Merlet unhesitatingly describes
Judicael as son of count Berenger, but of the count Berenger of
the late 9th century (and perhaps early 10th), who appears to
have succeeded an earlier Judicael at Rennes, but who also
appears in the Bessin, Maine and perhaps Bayeux, suggesting that
his Breton holdings may have been the tip of the Neustrian iceberg.


I'm dubious about calling Conan's father "Judicaël" Berenger. The
names Juhel and Judicaël seem to be distinct.

Merlet indicates that the latter was a dimminutive of the former,
growing distinct with time.

I guess we could add the following question to the three that I
already asked:

4. Is there any good primary evidence that any late NINTH century
Berengar had any specific Breton connection (as opposed to having some
sort of general jurisdiction that might have included Brittany)?

Given the extent of his activities, I think the latter is likely (I will
have to go back over things, but I have seen no claim for lordship over
Brittany, other than Rennes). Merlet does talk of him 'succeeding'
Judicael, grandson of Erispoe, but this may mistake the roles of
underling and overlord.

taf

Stewart Baldwin

Re: Juhel Berenger, count of Rennes

Legg inn av Stewart Baldwin » 22 aug 2004 22:24:14

I have a few additional miscellaneous comments and questions about
Juhel Berenger.

First, I am wondering if we shouldn't be calling him Juhel ALIAS
Berenger rather than Juhel Berenger. In other words, could it be that
rather than bearing a double name, he was known by one name (Juhel)
among the Bretons and by another (Berenger) among the Franks? For
example, the mid-eleventh century "Vita S. Gildæ Abbatis Ruyensis" has
the following passage:

"Eo tempore erat Comes in Redonensi civitate Juchael, qui et
Berengarius dicebatur. Hic habuit filium nomine Conanum, illustrem et
bellicosum virum, ex quo ortus est Gaufredus, vir et ipse in armis
strenuus, qui totius Britanniæ Monarchiam tenuit." [RHF 10, 377; my
translation (corrections welcome, if needed): "At that time the count
in the city of Rennes was Juchael, who was also called Berengar. He
had a son, Conan by name, an illustrious and bellicose man, from whom
was born Gaufred, a man also himself vigorous in arms, who held the
monarchy of all Brittany."]

This source (written less than 100 years after Juhel Berenger's death)
certainly suggests that it was an alias rather than a double name.
There is also a simple (but admittedly conjectural) way of explaining
how such an alias (if that is what is was) might have come about.
According to the Chronicle on Nantes, when the Vikings overran
Brittany in the early tenth century, count Mathuedoi of Poher led a
group of Bretons in exile to England, and others fled to France,
Burgundy, and Aquitaine. (I assume that this means the atistocracy,
and that the peasants were left to fend for themselves.) A young
Breton who took the French route could very easily have adopted a
non-Breton alias in this new setting, and then be later known to the
French by that name after the Breton nobility returned to Brittany.

In particular, these speculations lead to a few more questions (with
the numbering continued from the other questions that I asked earlier
in this thread).

5. Is there any early non-Breton source which refers to Juhel Berenger
by any name other than [just] Berenger?

6. Is the any strictly contemporary Breton source giving the name of
Conan's father, or mentioning Juhel Berengar? [Here, I am excluding
later compilations which might be based on contemporary sources,
because a change from "Juhel alias Berenger" to "Juhel Berenger" would
be too easy a change for a later author to make.]

7. I am unsure of the original source, but I have seen Conan and
Geoffrey referred to as Conan Berenger and Geoffrey Berenger somewhere
before (probably this newsgroup). Is there any early primary evidence
to justify this usage, or is it a convention of some later historians?

8. Anselme [vol. 3, p. 45] gives "Gerberge" as the name of Juhel
Berenger's wife and Conan's mother. Is there any good evidence to
back this up?

Stewart Baldwin

Todd A. Farmerie

Re: Juhel Berenger, count of Rennes

Legg inn av Todd A. Farmerie » 26 aug 2004 07:02:24

Stewart Baldwin wrote:
I have a few additional miscellaneous comments and questions about
Juhel Berenger.

First, I am wondering if we shouldn't be calling him Juhel ALIAS
Berenger rather than Juhel Berenger. I

That is how I read it.

This source (written less than 100 years after Juhel Berenger's death)
certainly suggests that it was an alias rather than a double name.
There is also a simple (but admittedly conjectural) way of explaining
how such an alias (if that is what is was) might have come about.

I don't know enough about the use of such names - why and in what
circumstances they were used, to evaluate any proposed explanations.

In particular, these speculations lead to a few more questions (with
the numbering continued from the other questions that I asked earlier
in this thread).

5. Is there any early non-Breton source which refers to Juhel Berenger
by any name other than [just] Berenger?

Not that I have seen.

6. Is the any strictly contemporary Breton source giving the name of
Conan's father, or mentioning Juhel Berengar? [Here, I am excluding
later compilations which might be based on contemporary sources,
because a change from "Juhel alias Berenger" to "Juhel Berenger" would
be too easy a change for a later author to make.]

I am aware of none.

7. I am unsure of the original source, but I have seen Conan and
Geoffrey referred to as Conan Berenger and Geoffrey Berenger somewhere
before (probably this newsgroup). Is there any early primary evidence
to justify this usage, or is it a convention of some later historians?

These come from Merlet. He cites:

"Cf. Conanus Berengarii dans dom Morice, _Preuves de l'Histoire
de Bretagne_, I, 33, et A. de la Borderie, _Histoire de
Bretagne_, III, 158, note 3."

and quotes a monk of St Magloire de Paris in reference to
Geoffroi: "[Sub Roberto rege] quidam comes Britannorum,
Berengarius nomine, Parisius advenit, eundem principem visurus,
militareque obsequium prebiturus."

citing:

"Cf. _Auctarium Maglorianum_, paragraphe VIII, edition R. Merlet,
dans _Bibliotheque de l'Ecole des Chartes_, annee 1895, p. 248."


8. Anselme [vol. 3, p. 45] gives "Gerberge" as the name of Juhel
Berenger's wife and Conan's mother. Is there any good evidence to
back this up?

again, not that I have seen.

taf

Stewart Baldwin

Re: Juhel Berenger, count of Rennes

Legg inn av Stewart Baldwin » 31 aug 2004 19:00:50

On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 23:02:24 -0600, "Todd A. Farmerie"
<farmerie@interfold.com> wrote:

Stewart Baldwin wrote:

[snip]

7. I am unsure of the original source, but I have seen Conan and
Geoffrey referred to as Conan Berenger and Geoffrey Berenger somewhere
before (probably this newsgroup). Is there any early primary evidence
to justify this usage, or is it a convention of some later historians?

These come from Merlet. He cites:

"Cf. Conanus Berengarii dans dom Morice, _Preuves de l'Histoire
de Bretagne_, I, 33, et A. de la Borderie, _Histoire de
Bretagne_, III, 158, note 3."

and quotes a monk of St Magloire de Paris in reference to
Geoffroi: "[Sub Roberto rege] quidam comes Britannorum,
Berengarius nomine, Parisius advenit, eundem principem visurus,
militareque obsequium prebiturus."

citing:

"Cf. _Auctarium Maglorianum_, paragraphe VIII, edition R. Merlet,
dans _Bibliotheque de l'Ecole des Chartes_, annee 1895, p. 248."

[snip]

I had already seen the above reference to king Robert and a Berenger,
and was assuming that it was some sort of confusion, but I see how
this could be interpreted as referring to Geoffrey, IF it could be
shown that Geoffrey used a double name.

I assume the above quotes come from the article by Merlet which you
cited earlier in this thread ("Origine de la Famille des Berenger
comtes de Rennes et ducs de Bretagne"), which I have not seen. I
looked at the 1895 article in Bibliothèque de l'École des Chartes
(available at Gallica), and on p. 270 he states that Geoffrey is
called "Gaufridus Berengarii" by the chronicler of Saint-Brieuc. He
also cites de la Borderie, Miracles de saint Magloire, p. 114-5 (also
available at Gallica), which mentions the "Conanus Berengarii" from
the same chronicle. It would be nice to have the full context of
these quotes rather than just the names, but one thing that does stand
out is that "Conanus" and "Gaufridus" are both given in the
nominative, while "Berengarii" (which would be "Berengarius" in the
nominative) is given in the genetive. This looks rather odd without
another word like "filius" (in the case of Conan) or "avus" (in the
case of Geoffrey). Unless there is more than this, the case for Conan
and Geoffrey bearing double names seems pretty weak to me.

Is there any edition of the Chronicle of Saint-Brieuc that is
available online?

Stewart Baldwin

Stewart Baldwin

Re: Juhel Berenger, count of Rennes

Legg inn av Stewart Baldwin » 31 aug 2004 19:11:46

On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 20:24:14 GMT, Stewart Baldwin
<sbaldw@mindspring.com> wrote:
[snip]
8. Anselme [vol. 3, p. 45] gives "Gerberge" as the name of Juhel
Berenger's wife and Conan's mother. Is there any good evidence to
back this up?

Another question to add to the list:

9. I have seen a couple of secondary sources giving Juhel Berenger
another son Main of Fougères, ancestor of that family. Suspicion
seems justified here, but has anybody seen a discussion of this?

Stewart Baldwin

Peter Stewart

Re: Juhel Berenger, count of Rennes

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 01 sep 2004 06:02:50

Stewart Baldwin wrote:

<snip>

Is there any edition of the Chronicle of Saint-Brieuc that is
available online?

As best I can recall, this is an early 15th-century compilation, and not
likely to provide much helpful evidence.

Peter Stewart

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