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Gjest

Re: Who was John Harrington of Doncaster ?

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 jan 2007 00:38:02

Dear Will,
Apparently Leo got the 1429/30 birthdate for Roger either from
Sir Richard Copley of Batley`s will of 16 July 1434 or Gerald Paget`s
Ancestry of the Prince of Wales. the sixth son comment is probably either from John
Higgins or Doug Smith and is likely based on a flawed visitation pedigree which
claimed He died dsp vp. that said, Faris in PA 1 and 2 says Roger`s mother
was Elizabeth , daughter of John Harington, of Doncaster, West Riding. Roger
Copley, Esq was of record as a mercer in 1482, but died before 21 December 1490
when his brother William Copley, Gent. of Doncaster, West Riding left a
bequest for masses for his brothers Oliver, Roger and Thomas. Lionel , Richard`s
eldest son inherited Batley and is known to be by Margaret Denton. As for
William, Oliver, Roger and Thomas a lot hinges on whether or not Doncaster is merely
a town in York or a manor. If the former either woman could be their mother,
if the latter , Elizabeth was and William was either the eldest brother else
succeeded on his death and may in fact have been the youngest. Hopefully,
Richard`s IPM (after September 28, 1424) will yield up proof.

Sincerely,

James W Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA

alden@mindspring.com

Re: Who was John Harrington of Doncaster ?

Legg inn av alden@mindspring.com » 02 jan 2007 01:04:44

snip

on whether or not Doncaster is merely
a town in York or a manor. If the former either woman could be their mother,
if the latter , Elizabeth was and William was either the eldest brother else
succeeded on his death and may in fact have been the youngest. Hopefully,
Richard`s IPM (after September 28, 1424) will yield up proof.

Sincerely,

James W Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA

FWIW

from Wikipedia:

Doncaster is a town in the English county of South Yorkshire, and the
principal settlement of the Metropolitan Borough of Doncaster in South
Yorkshire. The town is located approximately 20 miles from Sheffield
and is popularly referred to by some of its residents as Donny.

The Metropolitan Borough of Doncaster has frequently applied for city
status but despite Doncaster's size and history, it has yet to be given
the title. Doncaster boasts a new International airport and its centre
is undergoing massive regeneration including the development of an
Education City campus, the largest budget education investment of its
kind in the UK.

According to the 2001 census the urban sub-area of Doncaster had a
population of 67,977 - together with Bentley, Armthorpe and Kirk
Sandall it forms an urban area with a population of 127,851. The wider
Metropolitan Borough has a population of around 290,000.


Could not find a manor of Doncaster with a web search. There was a
manor Brodsworth there.

Doug Smith

Merilyn Pedrick

Re: Another C.P. Correction: Marriage date of Elizabeth le D

Legg inn av Merilyn Pedrick » 02 jan 2007 01:13:02

OK, so who are Elizabeth le Despenser's ancestors?
Merilyn




-------Original Message-------

From: WJhonson@aol.com
Date: 01/02/07 05:26:19
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Another C.P. Correction: Marriage date of Elizabeth le
Despenserand Sir ...

Yes I accept the conclusion, tentatively at least, that John de Camoys was
a
son of Elizabeth le Despencer :)

This one seems relatively well-founded.

Will Johnson

-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

John Higgins

Re: Who was John Harrington of Doncaster ?

Legg inn av John Higgins » 02 jan 2007 01:21:00

The reference cited from AR8 to CP VI is to the article on the family of
Hoo. Anne Hoo, one of the coheirs of this family, was the wife of Roger
Copley of Roughey (erroneously called Sir Roger by CP), but this CP article
says nothing about his birthdate or parentage.

All of the AR8 references to CP XII.2 contain no mention at all of any
Copleys. The first two sets of references pertain the Welles family
(including Eleanor the mother of Anne Hoo) and the last is to the West
family (into which a daughter of Roger Copley and Anne Hoo married), but no
Copleys mentioned.

Since we're validating references here, mention should be made of the 6
Copley pedigree references that Douglas Richardson cited in an earlier post
in this thread (which made it to SGM but not to Gen-Med).

1. R. Thoresby, Ducatus Leodiensis 2: (1816): 11.
[not available to me]

2. J. Foster, Peds. of Fams. of Yorkshire (1874) (Copley arms: Argent,
a cross moline sable).
[cited by Marlyn Lewis in 1998 in gen-Med as saying that Roger was son of
Sir Richard by Elizabeth Harrington - no dates given]

3. R. Glover, Vis. of Yorkshire 1584/5, 1612 (1875): 10.
[edited by Joseph Foster, who says that Roger was son of Elizabeth
Harrington, but indicates that various Harleian MSS are in conflict on this
point. Foster says the pedigree showing Elizabeth as mother is in agreement
with his Yorkshire Collections (mentioned above) and with Hunter's South
Yorkshire, 1:51]

4. W. Flower, Vis. of Yorkshire 1563-4 (H.S.P. 16) (1881): 78-80.
[two pedigrees, presumably from different Harleian MSS. One gives Sir
Richard and Margaret Denton a son Roger who died sp. The other pedigree
assigns all the sons of Sir Richard to Margaret Denton, but the editor has
added an unsourced footnote saying that only Lionel was a son by Margaret
and all the others were by Elizabeth. Roger is said here to be the 5th son,
with marriage and one son shown, but no dates.]

5. T. Benolte et al., Vis. Sussex 1530, 1633-4 (H.S.P. 53) (1905): 111.
[Pedigree starts with "Sir" Roger Copley who mar. Anne Hoo - no dates or
parentage given.]

6. W. Harvey et al., Vis. of the North 2 (Surtees Soc.133) (1921): 163.
[all children of Sir Richard are said to be by his only wife Margaret
Denton - no mention of Elizabeth Harrington. Roger is called 5th son - no
dates, marriage or issue for him. It is clear from the introduction to this
volume is from one of the versions of Flower's visitation - #4 above]

Two other Copley pedigrees can be added to this list [not mentioned by PA1/2
or RPA]:

7. J. W. Clay's edition of Dugdale's 1610 visitation of Yorkshire (as
published in "The Genealogist" [new series] vol. 1) says that Lionel was the
only son of Sir Richard by Margaret Denton. The other sons were by
Elizabeth, including Roger who is noted as the 6th son (5th of the second
marriage). No dates or marriage for Roger, who is mentioned because he had
a son William mentioned in the will of William Copley of Doncaster, uncle of
William and older brother of Roger).

8. Rev. Joseph Hunter, South Yorkshire, 1:51, lists Roger as 5th [and
youngest] son by the 2nd wife Elizabeth and specifies no dates, marriage or
issue for him. Hunter cites the will of Roger's brother William.

The net result is that only those sources based on Flower's visitation show
our Roger as son of Margaret Denton - all subsequent authors and editors
have followed the Elizabeth Harrington route - until RPA. I'd say the
question is still doubtful. I'm not sold by the argument of chronology
among the Harringtons, which seems to be based on a series of guesses over
at least a couple of generations. But I guess we all can draw our own
conclusions....


----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, January 01, 2007 2:04 PM
Subject: Re: Who was John Harrington of Doncaster ?


In order to determine which wife of John Harrington of Doncaster, had
which
children, it is useful to remove the layers of indirect discussion.

We've had many statement as to certain facts without reference to the
underlying authority. I notice that the Roger Copley family is referenced
in AR8,
line 17 where he cites his authorities as "CP IV:155-156, VI:561-565,
XII(2):443-4, 449-50, 522"

In addition Roger Copley is referenced by Leo where he cites ""The Lineage
and Ancestry of H.R.H. Prince Charles, Prince of Wales, Edinburgh, 1977,
Paget,
Gerald, Reference: P 59007" and "The Complete Peerage, 1936 , Doubleday,
H.A.
& Lord Howard de Walden, Reference: IV 156"

I can supply the information from CP IV but it does NOT go to show who
Roger's parents were, it does not show that he was b abt 1429/30, it does
not state
he was sixth son, it does not state when he died.

The CP IV: 155-6 reference only says this about Roger Copley
"He [Thomas de la Warre] m., 2ndly, Eleanor, da of Sir Roger Copley, of
Roughway, Sussex, by Anne, 2nd da. and coh. of Thomas (Hoo), Baron Hoo and
Hastings...."

So from that reference we only get confirmation of one daughter, a
placename,
and his wife.

Perhaps one of the other references (which I don't have access to),
expresses
the points that he was
1) Sixth son
2) b abt 1429/30
3) a YOUNGER brother of William Copley of Doncaster (as opposed to a
half-brother, or elder brother)

Will Johnson

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To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
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quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Douglas Richardson

Re: Who was John Harrington of Doncaster ?

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 02 jan 2007 01:54:50

Dear James, Doug, etc. ~

Inasofar as the birth date of Roger Copley is concerned, I show that he
was apprenticed to a London mercer and was subsequently admitted to the
Mercers' Company, London in 1456. He married before 1467 Anne Hoo,
who was born about 1448 (she being aged 7 at her father's death in
1455).

By comparison, I show that Anne Hoo's nephew, William Boleyn, was born
about 1451 (aged 36 in 1487, aged under 22 on 18 Nov. 1469). He
married before 16 Nov. 1469 (date of grant) Margaret Butler. He was
admitted to Mercers' Company, London in 1472.

If Roger Copley's admittance to the Mercers' Company followed the same
path as William Boleyn's, then Roger Copley would have been quite
young, 21 perhaps, when he was admitted to the Mercers' Company in
1456. This would suggest a birthdate for him of approximately 1355.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Gjest

Re: Who was John Harrington of Doncaster ?

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 jan 2007 01:55:03

In a message dated 1/1/07 3:37:45 PM Pacific Standard Time, Jwc1870@aol.com
writes:

<< Apparently Leo got the 1429/30 birthdate for Roger either from
Sir Richard Copley of Batley`s will of 16 July 1434 or Gerald Paget`s
Ancestry of the Prince of Wales. the sixth son comment is probably either
from John
Higgins or Doug Smith and is likely based on a flawed visitation pedigree
which
claimed He died dsp vp. >>


Roger Copley did not dspvp since his daughter Eleanor Copley married Thomas
West, 8th Lord de Laware and had at least three children, each of which had
their own children.

Unless you are sumitting or have reference to a CP correction on that. See CP
IV 155-6

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Another C.P. Correction: Marriage date of Elizabeth le D

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 jan 2007 02:01:02

In a message dated 1/1/07 4:11:56 PM Pacific Standard Time,
pedricks@ozemail.com.au writes:

<< OK, so who are Elizabeth le Despenser's ancestors? >>

I posted on this very issue a few days ago.
She is given as daughter of "Hugh Earl of Winchester"
and there are two.
Either one you pick has ... issues. See my earlier post.

Will

Douglas Richardson

Re: Another C.P. Correction: Marriage date of Elizabeth le D

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 02 jan 2007 02:15:42

Dear Merlyn ~

You can find Elizabeth le Despenser's ancestry in various online
databases. Take your pick.

Her "best" royal descent comes through three different descents from
Isabel de Vermandois, the granddaughter of King Henry I of France. The
Despenser family also has a line of descent from Countess Judith, the
niece of William the Conqueror, King of England.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah


Merilyn Pedrick wrote:
< OK, so who are Elizabeth le Despenser's ancestors?
< Merilyn
<

Gjest

Re: Who was John Harrington of Doncaster ?

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 jan 2007 02:16:02

In a message dated 1/1/07 4:56:21 PM Pacific Standard Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:

<< Inasofar as the birth date of Roger Copley is concerned, I show that he
was apprenticed to a London mercer and was subsequently admitted to the
Mercers' Company, London in 1456. He married before 1467 Anne Hoo,
who was born about 1448 (she being aged 7 at her father's death in 1455).

.....[snipped]

If Roger Copley's admittance to the Mercers' Company followed the same
path as William Boleyn's, then Roger Copley would have been quite
young, 21 perhaps, when he was admitted to the Mercers' Company in
1456. This would suggest a birthdate for him of approximately 1355. >>

Correcting the above "1355" to read "1435"
Not that I necessarily agree of course :)
Will

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: Who was John Harrington of Doncaster ?

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 02 jan 2007 02:20:08

In message of 2 Jan, "John Higgins" <jthiggins@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

The reference cited from AR8 to CP VI is to the article on the family of
Hoo. Anne Hoo, one of the coheirs of this family, was the wife of Roger
Copley of Roughey (erroneously called Sir Roger by CP), but this CP article
says nothing about his birthdate or parentage.

All of the AR8 references to CP XII.2 contain no mention at all of any
Copleys. The first two sets of references pertain the Welles family
(including Eleanor the mother of Anne Hoo) and the last is to the West
family (into which a daughter of Roger Copley and Anne Hoo married), but no
Copleys mentioned.

Since we're validating references here, mention should be made of the 6
Copley pedigree references that Douglas Richardson cited in an earlier post
in this thread (which made it to SGM but not to Gen-Med).

1. R. Thoresby, Ducatus Leodiensis 2: (1816): 11.
[not available to me]

Page 11 of Part 2 of Ducatus Leodinensis, pub 1816, is a list of
fragments of sculptures of Roman times from the catalogue of the
antiquities of the Museum Thoresbyanum.

Page 11 of Part 1 of the same is a pedigree of a Copley family of
Batley, Yorks, though it has no references. It shows a Sir Richard
Copley who m. (2) a Dame Elizabeth d. and h. of Sir John Harrington, knt
3d Hen 7; they had sons William, Thomas, Oliver, Roger, Lionel,
Percival, Jonathan and John.

The first marriage with Dame Margaret, d. of Sir Richard Denton, Knt is
shown with one son only, Lyon of Batley.

2. J. Foster, Peds. of Fams. of Yorkshire (1874) (Copley arms: Argent,
a cross moline sable).
[cited by Marlyn Lewis in 1998 in gen-Med as saying that Roger was son of
Sir Richard by Elizabeth Harrington - no dates given]

3. R. Glover, Vis. of Yorkshire 1584/5, 1612 (1875): 10.
[edited by Joseph Foster, who says that Roger was son of Elizabeth
Harrington, but indicates that various Harleian MSS are in conflict on this
point. Foster says the pedigree showing Elizabeth as mother is in agreement
with his Yorkshire Collections (mentioned above) and with Hunter's South
Yorkshire, 1:51]

4. W. Flower, Vis. of Yorkshire 1563-4 (H.S.P. 16) (1881): 78-80.
[two pedigrees, presumably from different Harleian MSS. One gives Sir
Richard and Margaret Denton a son Roger who died sp. The other pedigree
assigns all the sons of Sir Richard to Margaret Denton, but the editor has
added an unsourced footnote saying that only Lionel was a son by Margaret
and all the others were by Elizabeth. Roger is said here to be the 5th son,
with marriage and one son shown, but no dates.]

5. T. Benolte et al., Vis. Sussex 1530, 1633-4 (H.S.P. 53) (1905): 111.
[Pedigree starts with "Sir" Roger Copley who mar. Anne Hoo - no dates or
parentage given.]

6. W. Harvey et al., Vis. of the North 2 (Surtees Soc.133) (1921): 163.
[all children of Sir Richard are said to be by his only wife Margaret
Denton - no mention of Elizabeth Harrington. Roger is called 5th son - no
dates, marriage or issue for him. It is clear from the introduction to this
volume is from one of the versions of Flower's visitation - #4 above]

Two other Copley pedigrees can be added to this list [not mentioned by PA1/2
or RPA]:

7. J. W. Clay's edition of Dugdale's 1610 visitation of Yorkshire (as
published in "The Genealogist" [new series] vol. 1) says that Lionel was the
only son of Sir Richard by Margaret Denton. The other sons were by
Elizabeth, including Roger who is noted as the 6th son (5th of the second
marriage). No dates or marriage for Roger, who is mentioned because he had
a son William mentioned in the will of William Copley of Doncaster, uncle of
William and older brother of Roger).

8. Rev. Joseph Hunter, South Yorkshire, 1:51, lists Roger as 5th [and
youngest] son by the 2nd wife Elizabeth and specifies no dates, marriage or
issue for him. Hunter cites the will of Roger's brother William.

The net result is that only those sources based on Flower's visitation show
our Roger as son of Margaret Denton - all subsequent authors and editors
have followed the Elizabeth Harrington route - until RPA. I'd say the
question is still doubtful. I'm not sold by the argument of chronology
among the Harringtons, which seems to be based on a series of guesses over
at least a couple of generations. But I guess we all can draw our own
conclusions....


----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL@rootsweb.com
Sent: Monday, January 01, 2007 2:04 PM
Subject: Re: Who was John Harrington of Doncaster ?


In order to determine which wife of John Harrington of Doncaster, had
which
children, it is useful to remove the layers of indirect discussion.

We've had many statement as to certain facts without reference to the
underlying authority. I notice that the Roger Copley family is referenced
in AR8,
line 17 where he cites his authorities as "CP IV:155-156, VI:561-565,
XII(2):443-4, 449-50, 522"

In addition Roger Copley is referenced by Leo where he cites ""The Lineage
and Ancestry of H.R.H. Prince Charles, Prince of Wales, Edinburgh, 1977,
Paget,
Gerald, Reference: P 59007" and "The Complete Peerage, 1936 , Doubleday,
H.A.
& Lord Howard de Walden, Reference: IV 156"

I can supply the information from CP IV but it does NOT go to show who
Roger's parents were, it does not show that he was b abt 1429/30, it does
not state
he was sixth son, it does not state when he died.

The CP IV: 155-6 reference only says this about Roger Copley
"He [Thomas de la Warre] m., 2ndly, Eleanor, da of Sir Roger Copley, of
Roughway, Sussex, by Anne, 2nd da. and coh. of Thomas (Hoo), Baron Hoo and
Hastings...."

So from that reference we only get confirmation of one daughter, a
placename,
and his wife.

Perhaps one of the other references (which I don't have access to),
expresses
the points that he was
1) Sixth son
2) b abt 1429/30
3) a YOUNGER brother of William Copley of Doncaster (as opposed to a
half-brother, or elder brother)

Will Johnson

-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message



--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/

Gjest

Re: Another C.P. Correction: Marriage date of Elizabeth le D

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 jan 2007 02:21:21

I'll take a stab. Here's a partial ahnentafel:

1 Elizabeth LE DESPENCER. Born abt 1296. Elizabeth died aft 1370; she
was 74.

Abt 1316 when Elizabeth was 20, she married Sir Ralph DE CAMOYS Lord
Camoys.

2 Sir Hugh LE DESPENCER Earl of Winchester. Born on 1 Mar 1260/1 in
Wycombe, Buckingham, England. Hugh died in Bristol, England, on 27 Oct
1326; he was 66. Abt 1286 when Hugh was 25, he married Isabel DE
BEAUCHAMP.

3 Isabel DE BEAUCHAMP. Born abt 1268. Isabel died in 1306; she was 38.

4 Hugh LE DESPENCER 1st Lord Despencer. Born in 1223. Hugh died in
Evesham, England, on 4 Aug 1265; he was 42. Occupation: Justiciar of
England. Hugh married Aline BASSET.

5 Aline BASSET. Born in 1246. Aline died in 1281; she was 35.

6 William DE BEAUCHAMP 9th Earl of Warwick. Born in 1237. William died
in Elmley, England, on 9 Jun 1298; he was 61. William married Maud FITZ
JOHN.

7 Maud FITZ JOHN. Maud died on 17 Apr 1301.

8 Sir Hugh LE DESPENCER. Hugh died bef May 1238.

10 Sir Philip BASSET. Philip died on 29 Oct 1271. Occupation: Justiciar
of England. Philip married Hawise DE LOUVAINE.

11 Hawise DE LOUVAINE.

12 William DE BEAUCHAMP 5th Baron Beauchamp. Born abt 1215. William
died in Jan 1269; he was 54. William married Isabel MAUDUIT.

13 Isabel MAUDUIT. Isabel died bef 1268.

14 Sir John FITZ GEOFFREY. John died on 23 Nov 1258 in Shere, Surrey,
England. Occupation: Justiciar of Ireland. Abt 1230 John married
Isabel BIGOD.

15 Isabel BIGOD.

16 Thomas "THE DISPENSATOR". Thomas died bef 1218. Thomas married
Rohese.

17 Rohese.

20 Alan BASSET Lord Wycombe. Alan died in 1231. Alan married Aline DE
GAY.

21 Aline DE GAY.

22 Sir Matthew DE LOUVAINE. Matthew died bef Jun 1258. Matthew married
Muriel.

23 Muriel.

24 Walter DE BEAUCHAMP. Walter died in 1262. Walter married Joanne DE
MORTIMER.

25 Joanne DE MORTIMER.

26 William MAUDUIT Lord Hanslope. William died in Apr 1257. Occupation:
Chamberlain of the Exchequer. William married Alice DE NEWBURGH.

27 Alice DE NEWBURGH. Alice died bef 1263.

28 Geoffrey FITZ PIERS 4th Earl of Essex. Born bef 1162. Geoffrey died
on 14 Oct 1213; he was 51. Occupation: Justiciar of England. Geoffrey
married Aveline DE CLARE.

29 Aveline DE CLARE. Aveline died bef 1225.

30 Hugh BIGOD 3rd Earl Norfolk. Hugh died in Feb 1224/5. In 1207 Hugh
married Maud MARSHAL.

31 Maud MARSHAL. Maud died on 27 Mar 1248.

Sources:

"Plantagenet Ancestry of Seventeenth-Century Colonists" by David
Faris, 2nd ed. (NEHGS, Boston, 1999)
"Ancestral Roots" 7th edition by Frederick Lewis Weis (Genealogical
Publishing Co., 1999)
"Magna Carta Sureties 1215" by Frederick Lewis Weis (5th ed., 1999)
"Medieval English Ancestors of Robert Abell" by Carl Boyer 3rd
(Santa Clarita, CA, 2001)
Various postings on SGM.



On Jan 1, 7:11 pm, "Merilyn Pedrick" <pedri...@ozemail.com.au> wrote:
OK, so who are Elizabeth le Despenser's ancestors?
Merilyn

-------Original Message-------

From: WJhon...@aol.com
Date: 01/02/07 05:26:19
To: gen-medie...@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Another C.P. Correction: Marriage date of Elizabeth le

Despenserand Sir ...

Yes I accept the conclusion, tentatively at least, that John de Camoys was
a
son of Elizabeth le Despencer :)

This one seems relatively well-founded.

Will Johnson

-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEVAL-requ...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Douglas Richardson

Re: Who was John Harrington of Doncaster ?

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 02 jan 2007 02:24:02

Yes, Will, I meant to type 1435. That's for catching the typo.

Although I haven't studied the matter in depth, I get the impression
that under normal circumstances you were expected to be at least 21
when you were admitted to the Mercer's Company.

If so, perhaps the best way to phrase this would be to say that Roger
Copley was born before 1435, and leave it at that.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Douglas Richardson wrote:
Dear James, Doug, etc. ~

Inasofar as the birth date of Roger Copley is concerned, I show that he
was apprenticed to a London mercer and was subsequently admitted to the
Mercers' Company, London in 1456. He married before 1467 Anne Hoo,
who was born about 1448 (she being aged 7 at her father's death in
1455).

By comparison, I show that Anne Hoo's nephew, William Boleyn, was born
about 1451 (aged 36 in 1487, aged under 22 on 18 Nov. 1469). He
married before 16 Nov. 1469 (date of grant) Margaret Butler. He was
admitted to Mercers' Company, London in 1472.

If Roger Copley's admittance to the Mercers' Company followed the same
path as William Boleyn's, then Roger Copley would have been quite
young, 21 perhaps, when he was admitted to the Mercers' Company in
1456. This would suggest a birthdate for him of approximately 1435.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Gjest

Re: Who was John Harrington of Doncaster ?

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 jan 2007 02:30:02

Dear Douglas,
As his father was dead by 28 September 1434, 1455 is an
impossibilty.

Sincerely,

James W Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA

Douglas Richardson

Re: Who was John Harrington of Doncaster ?

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 02 jan 2007 02:38:31

Dear James ~

I didn't say "in or before 1435." I said "before 1435."

The date "28 September 1434" is obviously "before 1435."

I recommend you study the admittance records of the Mercers Company of
London to see what was a typical age for someone to be admitted. Then
you might have a better fix on when Roger Copley was born. Good luck
in your sleuthing.

DR


Jwc1...@aol.com wrote:
Dear Douglas,
As his father was dead by 28 September 1434, 1455 is an
impossibilty.

Sincerely,

James W Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA

Gjest

Re: OT? Gerald Ford

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 jan 2007 03:38:02

Dear Leo,
According to Gary Boyd Roberts` Presidential Ancestries
Gerald Rudolf Ford Jr (born Leslie Lynch King Jr) was also descended from John
Howland of the `Mayflower` `s elder brother Henry Howland Jr who married Mary ,
John and Anna (White) Porter of Windsor, Connecticut, William Hyde of Norwich,
Connecticut, Thomas and Anne( ) Wood of Rowley, Massachusetts, Reverend
John and Hannah (House) Lathrop of Barnstable, Massachusetts, Ralph and Alice
( ) Farnum of Andover, Massachusetts, Thomas and Dorothy (Bird) Lord of
Hartford, Connecticut, John and Agnes (Yeomans) Wheeler of Newbury,
Massachusetts , Reverend Stephen Batchelder by his unknown 1st wife through his daughter
Ann (Batchelder) Sanborn`s son John and Mary (Tuck) Batchelder.
I only have a few photocopied pages and the book
doubtless contains several more immigrants and gateway ancestors from whom President
Ford was descended. I share about 4 or 5 immigrant ancestors with him.
Batchelder/Sanborn, Thomas Wood, Farnum, Wheeler and Howland.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

Merilyn Pedrick

Re: Another C.P. Correction: Marriage date of Elizabeth leDe

Legg inn av Merilyn Pedrick » 02 jan 2007 06:33:01

Thankyou Martin - that seems to wrap it up.
Merilyn



-------Original Message-------

From: mhollick@mac.com
Date: 01/02/07 11:56:21
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Another C.P. Correction: Marriage date of Elizabeth
leDespenserand Sir ...

I'll take a stab. Here's a partial ahnentafel:

1 Elizabeth LE DESPENCER. Born abt 1296. Elizabeth died aft 1370; she
was 74.

Abt 1316 when Elizabeth was 20, she married Sir Ralph DE CAMOYS Lord
Camoys.

2 Sir Hugh LE DESPENCER Earl of Winchester. Born on 1 Mar 1260/1 in
Wycombe, Buckingham, England. Hugh died in Bristol, England, on 27 Oct
1326; he was 66. Abt 1286 when Hugh was 25, he married Isabel DE
BEAUCHAMP.

3 Isabel DE BEAUCHAMP. Born abt 1268. Isabel died in 1306; she was 38.

4 Hugh LE DESPENCER 1st Lord Despencer. Born in 1223. Hugh died in
Evesham, England, on 4 Aug 1265; he was 42. Occupation: Justiciar of
England. Hugh married Aline BASSET.

5 Aline BASSET. Born in 1246. Aline died in 1281; she was 35.

6 William DE BEAUCHAMP 9th Earl of Warwick. Born in 1237. William died
in Elmley, England, on 9 Jun 1298; he was 61. William married Maud FITZ
JOHN.

7 Maud FITZ JOHN. Maud died on 17 Apr 1301.

8 Sir Hugh LE DESPENCER. Hugh died bef May 1238.

10 Sir Philip BASSET. Philip died on 29 Oct 1271. Occupation: Justiciar
of England. Philip married Hawise DE LOUVAINE.

11 Hawise DE LOUVAINE.

12 William DE BEAUCHAMP 5th Baron Beauchamp. Born abt 1215. William
died in Jan 1269; he was 54. William married Isabel MAUDUIT.

13 Isabel MAUDUIT. Isabel died bef 1268.

14 Sir John FITZ GEOFFREY. John died on 23 Nov 1258 in Shere, Surrey,
England. Occupation: Justiciar of Ireland. Abt 1230 John married
Isabel BIGOD.

15 Isabel BIGOD.

16 Thomas "THE DISPENSATOR". Thomas died bef 1218. Thomas married
Rohese.

17 Rohese.

20 Alan BASSET Lord Wycombe. Alan died in 1231. Alan married Aline DE
GAY.

21 Aline DE GAY.

22 Sir Matthew DE LOUVAINE. Matthew died bef Jun 1258. Matthew married
Muriel.

23 Muriel.

24 Walter DE BEAUCHAMP. Walter died in 1262. Walter married Joanne DE
MORTIMER.

25 Joanne DE MORTIMER.

26 William MAUDUIT Lord Hanslope. William died in Apr 1257. Occupation:
Chamberlain of the Exchequer. William married Alice DE NEWBURGH.

27 Alice DE NEWBURGH. Alice died bef 1263.

28 Geoffrey FITZ PIERS 4th Earl of Essex. Born bef 1162. Geoffrey died
on 14 Oct 1213; he was 51. Occupation: Justiciar of England. Geoffrey
married Aveline DE CLARE.

29 Aveline DE CLARE. Aveline died bef 1225.

30 Hugh BIGOD 3rd Earl Norfolk. Hugh died in Feb 1224/5. In 1207 Hugh
married Maud MARSHAL.

31 Maud MARSHAL. Maud died on 27 Mar 1248.

Sources:

"Plantagenet Ancestry of Seventeenth-Century Colonists" by David
Faris, 2nd ed. (NEHGS, Boston, 1999)
"Ancestral Roots" 7th edition by Frederick Lewis Weis (Genealogical
Publishing Co., 1999)
"Magna Carta Sureties 1215" by Frederick Lewis Weis (5th ed., 1999)
"Medieval English Ancestors of Robert Abell" by Carl Boyer 3rd
(Santa Clarita, CA, 2001)
Various postings on SGM.



On Jan 1, 7:11 pm, "Merilyn Pedrick" <pedri...@ozemail.com.au> wrote:
OK, so who are Elizabeth le Despenser's ancestors?
Merilyn

-------Original Message-------

From: WJhon...@aol.com
Date: 01/02/07 05:26:19
To: gen-medie...@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Another C.P. Correction: Marriage date of Elizabeth le

Despenserand Sir ...

Yes I accept the conclusion, tentatively at least, that John de Camoys was
a
son of Elizabeth le Despencer :)

This one seems relatively well-founded.

Will Johnson

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@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject

and the body of the message


-------------------------------
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Gjest

Re: Sir Ralph de Camoys, Lord Camoys, and his Despenser conn

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 jan 2007 06:50:03

In a message dated 1/1/2007 9:18:29 PM Pacific Standard Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:

Next, in 1318, I find that Sir Ralph de Camoys was granted free warren
in his various lands in Northamptonshire, Hampshire, and
Huntingdonshire [Reference: Calendar of Charter Rolls, 3 (1914): 397].
The grant was made by the king "on the information of Hugh le Despenser
the younger," who was Ralph de Camoys' brother-in-law.

This remark "who was Ralph de Camoys' brother-in-law is most likely your
Douglas, right? It's not in the original underlying grant. Identifying which Hugh
was Elizabeth le Despencer's father is part of the problem. If her father
was Hugh the younger than she is put into an extremely narrow birth range,
perhaps too narrow.
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Another C.P. Correction: Marriage date of Elizabeth leDe

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 jan 2007 06:53:02

In a message dated 1/1/2007 9:32:36 PM Pacific Standard Time,
pedricks@ozemail.com.au writes:

Thankyou Martin - that seems to wrap it up.
Merilyn

Marilyn, I hope you take the various dates with a grain of salt. Until we
actually have some documentation on who Elizabeth's father was, we can all
speculate.

The problem with making Hugh the younger her father is in giving her enough
time to have a slew of kids before her husband died and also allowing one of
those William to be elder then John who we know was born probably by 1320.

It's a very narrow shoe to fit into.
Will Johnson

Merilyn Pedrick

Re: Another C.P. Correction: Marriage date of ElizabethleDes

Legg inn av Merilyn Pedrick » 02 jan 2007 07:05:03

Dear Will
Yes I do, but my database information isn't set in stone, so when better
information comes along I can always change it. But thankyou for being the
voice of caution in this newsgroup. We need someone like you to keep us
from plunging into false waters!
Merilyn




-------Original Message-------

From: WJhonson@aol.com
Date: 01/02/07 16:21:39
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Another C.P. Correction: Marriage date of
ElizabethleDespenserand Sir ...

In a message dated 1/1/2007 9:32:36 PM Pacific Standard Time,
pedricks@ozemail.com.au writes:

Thankyou Martin - that seems to wrap it up.
Merilyn

Marilyn, I hope you take the various dates with a grain of salt. Until we
actually have some documentation on who Elizabeth's father was, we can all
speculate.

The problem with making Hugh the younger her father is in giving her enough
time to have a slew of kids before her husband died and also allowing one of
those William to be elder then John who we know was born probably by 1320.

It's a very narrow shoe to fit into.
Will Johnson

-------------------------------
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Gjest

Re: OT? Gerald Ford

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 jan 2007 16:14:37

However, none of these are gateway royal ancestors. They are merely
immigrant ancestors.
Jwc1870@aol.com wrote:
Dear Leo,
According to Gary Boyd Roberts` Presidential Ancestries
Gerald Rudolf Ford Jr (born Leslie Lynch King Jr) was also descended from John
Howland of the `Mayflower` `s elder brother Henry Howland Jr who married Mary ,
John and Anna (White) Porter of Windsor, Connecticut, William Hyde of Norwich,
Connecticut, Thomas and Anne( ) Wood of Rowley, Massachusetts, Reverend
John and Hannah (House) Lathrop of Barnstable, Massachusetts, Ralph and Alice
( ) Farnum of Andover, Massachusetts, Thomas and Dorothy (Bird) Lord of
Hartford, Connecticut, John and Agnes (Yeomans) Wheeler of Newbury,
Massachusetts , Reverend Stephen Batchelder by his unknown 1st wife through his daughter
Ann (Batchelder) Sanborn`s son John and Mary (Tuck) Batchelder.
I only have a few photocopied pages and the book
doubtless contains several more immigrants and gateway ancestors from whom President
Ford was descended. I share about 4 or 5 immigrant ancestors with him.
Batchelder/Sanborn, Thomas Wood, Farnum, Wheeler and Howland.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

John Brandon

Re: OT? Gerald Ford

Legg inn av John Brandon » 02 jan 2007 16:27:16

According to Gary Boyd Roberts` Presidential Ancestries Gerald Rudolf Ford Jr (born Leslie Lynch King Jr) was also descended from John Howland of the 'Mayflower's' elder brother Henry Howland Jr who married Mary, John and Anna (White) Porter of Windsor, Connecticut, William Hyde of Norwich, Connecticut, Thomas and Anne ( ) Wood of Rowley, Massachusetts, Reverend John and Hannah (House) Lathrop of Barnstable, Massachusetts, Ralph and Alice ( ) Farnum of Andover, Massachusetts, Thomas and Dorothy (Bird) Lord of Hartford, Connecticut, John and Agnes (Yeomans) Wheeler of Newbury, Massachusetts, Reverend Stephen Batchelder by his unknown 1st wife through his daughter Ann (Batchelder) Sanborn's son John and Mary (Tuck) Batchelder.

This list is interesting to me, as I am a descendant of all of them
except William Hyde and Henry Howland (I have several lines from the
brother John Howland, however).

Gjest

Re: Sir Ralph de Camoys, Lord Camoys, and his Despenser conn

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 jan 2007 17:18:02

In a message dated 1/1/2007 11:10:13 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:

The various children of Earl Hugh and his wife, Isabel, listed above
were married in 1306, before 1312, after 1302, before 1307, before 1315
(contract dated 1313), and before 1316 respectively. These marriage
dates are very consistent for children of a couple married c. 1286.


You have to read my original message to understand.
Elizabeth married again after her first husband died and had several more
children.

taf

Re: Turcott(e)

Legg inn av taf » 02 jan 2007 18:29:58

Bob Turcott wrote:

I have found a variant coat of arms for Turcaud, it is believed at this
point Turcot would be a varaint, however the name a legendary ancestor of
the counts of Anjou was known as
Torquatus it is possible that Torquatus is Some form of these names Turcaud
& finally Turcot might have been.

I wounder if Counts of anjou had similar arms to those shown below for
Turcaud?


Turcaud, family from Guyenne
" Vert, a greyhound rampant Argent, with a collar Gules, the ring Gold."

Turcaud, family from Bordelais (Which is the Bordeaux region, in Guyenne)
" Argent, a female greyhound rampant Gules, or Sable " (taken from the
Armorial général de 1696).


The first Count of Anjou known to have had a coat of arms was Geoffrey,
son in law of King Henry I of England. His arms were azure, with
(probably) six lions rampant or, and are thought to have derived from
the lion badge of his father in law.

taf

Gordon Banks

Re: OT? Gerald Ford

Legg inn av Gordon Banks » 02 jan 2007 20:53:49

I don't have his book, but the genealogy for Ford posted on the Internet
had a false descent through John Dickinson and Elizabeth Howland.
Charles Dickinson was not their son, as far as I can tell. This error
has been found in many published genealogies, including the latest book
on Ann Marbury's descendants by Marston Watson (which is a good book, I
think). The descent is accepted by the Mayflower ancestry societies,
but I think was disproven by the article "Who Was Charles Dickinson" in
the July 1966 TAG. Sad to say, since I also descend from Charles
Dickinson, and wouldn't mind having Mayflower ancestry.

On Mon, 2007-01-01 at 21:36 -0500, Jwc1870@aol.com wrote:
Dear Leo,
According to Gary Boyd Roberts` Presidential Ancestries
Gerald Rudolf Ford Jr (born Leslie Lynch King Jr) was also descended from John
Howland of the `Mayflower` `s elder brother Henry Howland Jr who married Mary ,
John and Anna (White) Porter of Windsor, Connecticut, William Hyde of Norwich,
Connecticut, Thomas and Anne( ) Wood of Rowley, Massachusetts, Reverend
John and Hannah (House) Lathrop of Barnstable, Massachusetts, Ralph and Alice
( ) Farnum of Andover, Massachusetts, Thomas and Dorothy (Bird) Lord of
Hartford, Connecticut, John and Agnes (Yeomans) Wheeler of Newbury,
Massachusetts , Reverend Stephen Batchelder by his unknown 1st wife through his daughter
Ann (Batchelder) Sanborn`s son John and Mary (Tuck) Batchelder.
I only have a few photocopied pages and the book
doubtless contains several more immigrants and gateway ancestors from whom President
Ford was descended. I share about 4 or 5 immigrant ancestors with him.
Batchelder/Sanborn, Thomas Wood, Farnum, Wheeler and Howland.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

-------------------------------
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Gjest

Re: Sir Ralph de Camoys, Lord Camoys, and his Despenser conn

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 jan 2007 21:50:03

In a message dated 1/1/07 9:18:29 PM Pacific Standard Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:

<< The Lewknor family who created the tapestry
were the lineal heirs of Sir Ralph de Camoys, Lord Camoys (died 1336),
and his 2nd wife, Elizabeth le Despenser. >>

I can provide the line so far, but then my sources go silent.
If anyone can complete this line all the way to Sir John Lewknor of West Dean
(living 1662) that would be appreciated.

Roger Lewknor of West Dean b abt 1447
wife Mary West da. of Reynold West, Baron de la Warre (from 1427) by his wife
Elizabeth Greyndour

son of
Sir Roger Lewknor of Broadhurst b 1419/20 "aged 30 in 1450, 50 in 1471"
wife Eleanor Camoys

dau of
Sir Richard Camoys d.v.p. 1416
wife Joan (Jean) Poynings

Son of
Thomas, 1st Baron Camoys (from 1372) d 28 Mar 1421
wife Elizabeth Louches "heiress of her father"

son of
John, Baron Camoys of Berkerton "second son, aged 40 at IPM taken 30 Sep 1360"
wife Margaret Foliot

son of
Sir Ralph de Camoys d 1336 "before 24 June"
wife Elizabeth le Despencer

This shows the linkage from Despencer to the "West Dean" Lewknors but doesn't
come all the way forward to this alleged Constance Glemhan nor to Sir John
Lewknor living 1662.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: OT? Gerald Ford

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 jan 2007 22:07:02

This thread at least made me look at the Cudworth's in my database, and
discovered that I am descended from this James Cudworth + Mary Howland who's
parents were James Cudworth + Sarah Goodman

And from there back to the Lewknor's and another descent from Edward I, King
of England that way.

I had not properly recorded that and so missed that line.

Will Johnson

John Brandon

Re: OT? Gerald Ford

Legg inn av John Brandon » 02 jan 2007 22:23:53

Wow, just as simple as that, huh? (Wham, bam, thank you ma'am).

On Jan 2, 4:06 pm, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:
This thread at least made me look at the Cudworth's in my database, and
discovered that I am descended from this James Cudworth + Mary Howland who's
parents were James Cudworth + Sarah Goodman

And from there back to the Lewknor's and another descent from Edward I, King
of England that way.

I had not properly recorded that and so missed that line.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Sir Ralph de Camoys, Lord Camoys, and his Despenser conn

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 jan 2007 22:31:02

Because I (or some evil gnome) had combined Aunt and Niece into one person :)

A nice trick when you can figure it out.

Hugh Despencer, Earl of Winchester executed in 1326
had a daughter Elizabeth

and also his *son* Hugh Despencer, also Earl of Winchester and ALSO executed
in 1326, himself also had a daughter also named Elizabeth

The first Elizabeth married Ralph de Camoys and was said-to-be yet living in
1370

The second Elizabeth, her niece, married Maurice, 4th Lord Berkeley in Aug
1338 and she died 13 Jul 1389 and is buried at St Botolph's, London.

So now I have it straight.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Katherine Alington & Zouche Tate

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 jan 2007 22:41:02

In a message dated 1/2/07 1:24:34 AM Pacific Standard Time,
hw.bradley@verizon.net writes:

<< It appears that Zouche Tate was the son of Sir William Tate & Elizabeth
Zouche, m. 28 Dec. 1597 at St. John, Hackney, Middlesex, England. William was
the brother of Francis Tate. Both were sons of Bartholomew Tate by Dorothy
Tanfield, daughter of Francis Tanfield (DNB 19:376-7). >>

This is what I have on the great-great-grandparents of Zouche Tate. If
anyone can add the missing members that would be appreciated.
16 John /Tate/ , Lord Mayor of London 1497 d Jan 1515/1516
17 Unknown
18 Lawrence /Saunders/ of Harrington or Harringworth, Northants. d Aft May
1532 "named, living, in will of son-in-law Bartholomew Tate"
19 Alice /Brookesby/
20 William /Tanfeild/ , Esq. of Gayton, Northampton d 6 Apr 1529
21 Isabel /Staveley/
22 Thomas /Cave/ of Stanford
23 Unknown
24 Richard, 9th Baron /Zouche/ of Harryngworth d 22 Jul 1552
25 Joan /Rogers/
26 William /Welby/ , Esq., of Molton, co Lincoln
27 Unknown
28 George /Zouche/ of Codnor d 1557
29 Anne /Gainsford/
30 Unknown Whalley
31 Unknown

Will Johnson

CE Wood

Re: Sir Ralph de Camoys, Lord Camoys, and his Despenser conn

Legg inn av CE Wood » 02 jan 2007 23:22:53

"son of
John, Baron Camoys of Berkerton "second son, aged 40 at IPM taken 30
Sep 1360"
wife Margaret Foliot"

I thought that it was doubtful that Margaret was the mother of Thomas.


Jim Weber
(http://worldconnect.genealogy.rootsweb. ... &id=I17499),
notes:

"(j) Sir John had m. Margaret, sister and coheir of Richard Foliot, 3rd
Lord Foliot, but it is very doubtful whether she was the mother of
Thomas, as the whole of the Foliot inheritance seems to have passed to
her sister Margery, who m. Sir Hugh Hastings. [CP XIV:138 states that
Margaret dsp.]"

CE Wood


WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 1/1/07 9:18:29 PM Pacific Standard Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:

The Lewknor family who created the tapestry
were the lineal heirs of Sir Ralph de Camoys, Lord Camoys (died 1336),
and his 2nd wife, Elizabeth le Despenser.

I can provide the line so far, but then my sources go silent.
If anyone can complete this line all the way to Sir John Lewknor of West Dean
(living 1662) that would be appreciated.

Roger Lewknor of West Dean b abt 1447
wife Mary West da. of Reynold West, Baron de la Warre (from 1427) by his wife
Elizabeth Greyndour

son of
Sir Roger Lewknor of Broadhurst b 1419/20 "aged 30 in 1450, 50 in 1471"
wife Eleanor Camoys

dau of
Sir Richard Camoys d.v.p. 1416
wife Joan (Jean) Poynings

Son of
Thomas, 1st Baron Camoys (from 1372) d 28 Mar 1421
wife Elizabeth Louches "heiress of her father"

son of
John, Baron Camoys of Berkerton "second son, aged 40 at IPM taken 30 Sep 1360"
wife Margaret Foliot

son of
Sir Ralph de Camoys d 1336 "before 24 June"
wife Elizabeth le Despencer

This shows the linkage from Despencer to the "West Dean" Lewknors but doesn't
come all the way forward to this alleged Constance Glemhan nor to Sir John
Lewknor living 1662.

Will Johnson

Leo van de Pas

Re: OT? Gerald Ford

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 02 jan 2007 23:30:41

Dear Martin,

You may have missed my exchange with Nat Taylor. I was working out with him
what to do with _my website_.
For a moment I was considering to have three kinds of Gateways
1.Gateways with Royal ancestors
2.Gateways with medieval ancestors
3.Gateways before say 1700

As Nat explained I would be doing injustice to the original concept of
Gateways, and so I do intend the turn the third group into immigrants. This
would also allow me, if I want to, extend the immigrants notation to after
1700. But all this needs a fair amount of work and I may have to wait until
after the next update when all Gateways of all kinds will be searchable on
the website. This will make it easier for me to change the immigrants into
immigrants.
With best wishes
Leo

----- Original Message -----
From: <mhollick@mac.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2007 2:14 AM
Subject: Re: OT? Gerald Ford


However, none of these are gateway royal ancestors. They are merely
immigrant ancestors.
Jwc1870@aol.com wrote:
Dear Leo,
According to Gary Boyd Roberts` Presidential Ancestries
Gerald Rudolf Ford Jr (born Leslie Lynch King Jr) was also descended from
John
Howland of the `Mayflower` `s elder brother Henry Howland Jr who married
Mary ,
John and Anna (White) Porter of Windsor, Connecticut, William Hyde of
Norwich,
Connecticut, Thomas and Anne( ) Wood of Rowley, Massachusetts,
Reverend
John and Hannah (House) Lathrop of Barnstable, Massachusetts, Ralph and
Alice
( ) Farnum of Andover, Massachusetts, Thomas and Dorothy (Bird) Lord
of
Hartford, Connecticut, John and Agnes (Yeomans) Wheeler of Newbury,
Massachusetts , Reverend Stephen Batchelder by his unknown 1st wife
through his daughter
Ann (Batchelder) Sanborn`s son John and Mary (Tuck) Batchelder.
I only have a few photocopied pages and the book
doubtless contains several more immigrants and gateway ancestors from
whom President
Ford was descended. I share about 4 or 5 immigrant ancestors with him.
Batchelder/Sanborn, Thomas Wood, Farnum, Wheeler and Howland.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA


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quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Leo van de Pas

Re: Turcott(e)

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 02 jan 2007 23:47:06

If you go to http://www.genealogics.org and enter 'all portraits' if you
enter then in the search box 1113 (the year Geoffrey was born), you will
get his file. On the bottom is his portrait rather small, if you press on it
it will be enlarged and you can see (fairly well) his coat-of-arms.
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas,
Canberra, Australia

----- Original Message -----
From: "taf" <farmerie@interfold.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2007 4:29 AM
Subject: Re: Turcott(e)


Bob Turcott wrote:

I have found a variant coat of arms for Turcaud, it is believed at this
point Turcot would be a varaint, however the name a legendary ancestor
of
the counts of Anjou was known as
Torquatus it is possible that Torquatus is Some form of these names
Turcaud
& finally Turcot might have been.

I wounder if Counts of anjou had similar arms to those shown below for
Turcaud?


Turcaud, family from Guyenne
" Vert, a greyhound rampant Argent, with a collar Gules, the ring Gold."

Turcaud, family from Bordelais (Which is the Bordeaux region, in Guyenne)
" Argent, a female greyhound rampant Gules, or Sable " (taken from the
Armorial général de 1696).


The first Count of Anjou known to have had a coat of arms was Geoffrey,
son in law of King Henry I of England. His arms were azure, with
(probably) six lions rampant or, and are thought to have derived from
the lion badge of his father in law.

taf


-------------------------------
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GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Gjest

Re: Sir Ralph de Camoys, Lord Camoys, and his Despenser conn

Legg inn av Gjest » 03 jan 2007 02:06:02

In a message dated 1/2/07 2:26:13 PM Pacific Standard Time, wood_ce@msn.com
writes:

<< "son of
John, Baron Camoys of Berkerton "second son, aged 40 at IPM taken 30
Sep 1360"
wife Margaret Foliot"

I thought that it was doubtful that Margaret was the mother of Thomas. >>

I don't have a second wife for John Baron Camoys of Bekerton.
What do you have?

Right now I'm showing that Margaret Foliot and John were married bef 8 Nov
1330 and that she was still alive in 1346 but dead by 1360

While he was still alive in 1360 but dead by 1371
Those are my boundaries.

Now into those boundaries, I show three children
1) Thomas the eldest son
2) John (later of Linford) the not eldest son
3) Maud de Camoys who m bef 31 May 1383 Edward Courtenay, 3rd Earl of Devon


We know that Thomas the eldest was born by 1353 since he was granted a
license for a market in 1374, and *possibly* succeeded his father by 1372.

So he could be the son of Margaret Foliot from all of that.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Sir Ralph de Camoys, Lord Camoys, and his Despenser conn

Legg inn av Gjest » 03 jan 2007 02:18:03

Right from a strict chronological viewpoint, but if you assimilate all
the information and that the Foliot property went to the Hastings, then
it seems that Thomas was the son of John and his wife Elizabeth (---).

On Jan 2, 8:04 pm, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 1/2/07 2:26:13 PM Pacific Standard Time, wood...@msn.com
writes:

"son of
John, Baron Camoys of Berkerton "second son, aged 40 at IPM taken 30
Sep 1360"
wife Margaret Foliot"

I thought that it was doubtful that Margaret was the mother of Thomas.

I don't have a second wife for John Baron Camoys of Bekerton.
What do you have?

Right now I'm showing that Margaret Foliot and John were married bef 8 Nov
1330 and that she was still alive in 1346 but dead by 1360

While he was still alive in 1360 but dead by 1371
Those are my boundaries.

Now into those boundaries, I show three children
1) Thomas the eldest son
2) John (later of Linford) the not eldest son
3) Maud de Camoys who m bef 31 May 1383 Edward Courtenay, 3rd Earl of Devon

We know that Thomas the eldest was born by 1353 since he was granted a
license for a market in 1374, and *possibly* succeeded his father by 1372.

So he could be the son of Margaret Foliot from all of that.

Will Johnson

Merilyn Pedrick

Re: OT? Gerald Ford

Legg inn av Merilyn Pedrick » 03 jan 2007 02:20:02

Dear Will
I have your James Cudworth who married Mary Howland as the son of General
James Cudworth and Mary Parker. I have in his notes :
"Robert Charles Anderson, The Great Migration, 1634-1635, vol. 2, pp.
249-58, contains the best genealogical account of James Cudworth.
Anderson states that Cudworth's wife was Mary Parker, whom he m. at Northam,
co. Devon, on 1 Feb. 1633/4 (p. 254); on p. 255, Anderson provides a full
explanation of why he concludes that this marriage is that of the immigrant.

I would be interested to see how you descend. And I think Leo would be too.
I have recently sent him a number of Cudworth descendants for his database.

Merilyn




-------Original Message-------

From: WJhonson@aol.com
Date: 01/03/07 07:38:05
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: OT? Gerald Ford

This thread at least made me look at the Cudworth's in my database, and
discovered that I am descended from this James Cudworth + Mary Howland who's
parents were James Cudworth + Sarah Goodman

And from there back to the Lewknor's and another descent from Edward I, King
of England that way.

I had not properly recorded that and so missed that line.

Will Johnson

-------------------------------
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Gjest

Re: Sir Ralph de Camoys, Lord Camoys, and his Despenser conn

Legg inn av Gjest » 03 jan 2007 02:28:19

Starting with Roger Lewkenor who may/possibly married Mary West (apply
your famous chronology her and see what happens)

2. Edmund Lewkenor d. 11 March 1544 m. Jane Tyrrell
3. Richard Lewkenor, Chief Justice of Wales, living 1588/9 m. Margaret
(---)
4. Sir Richard Lewkenor, Chief Justice of Chester, d. 6 April 1616,
aged 76 m. Eleanor Broome
5. Richard Lewkenor, d. 9 March 1602, aged 34
6. Richard Lewkenor, Esquire, d. 27 May 1635, m. Mary Bennett
7. John Lewkenor, d. 3 December 1669, aged 43 m. mary Lee, wnd Ann
Denham.

See John Comber, Sussex Genealogies, Lewes Center, pp. 148-156.

I belived the Sussex Visitations of 1530 and 1633-4 gives the same line
except to get rid of generaiton #5 and go from 4 directly to 6.


On Jan 2, 3:47 pm, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 1/1/07 9:18:29 PM Pacific Standard Time,

royalances...@msn.com writes:<< The Lewknor family who created the tapestry
were the lineal heirs of Sir Ralph de Camoys, Lord Camoys (died 1336),
and his 2nd wife, Elizabeth le Despenser.

I can provide the line so far, but then my sources go silent.
If anyone can complete this line all the way to Sir John Lewknor of West Dean
(living 1662) that would be appreciated.

Roger Lewknor of West Dean b abt 1447
wife Mary West da. of Reynold West, Baron de la Warre (from 1427) by his wife
Elizabeth Greyndour

son of
Sir Roger Lewknor of Broadhurst b 1419/20 "aged 30 in 1450, 50 in 1471"
wife Eleanor Camoys

dau of
Sir Richard Camoys d.v.p. 1416
wife Joan (Jean) Poynings

Son of
Thomas, 1st Baron Camoys (from 1372) d 28 Mar 1421
wife Elizabeth Louches "heiress of her father"

son of
John, Baron Camoys of Berkerton "second son, aged 40 at IPM taken 30 Sep 1360"
wife Margaret Foliot

son of
Sir Ralph de Camoys d 1336 "before 24 June"
wife Elizabeth le Despencer

This shows the linkage from Despencer to the "West Dean" Lewknors but doesn't
come all the way forward to this alleged Constance Glemhan nor to Sir John
Lewknor living 1662.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: OT? Gerald Ford

Legg inn av Gjest » 03 jan 2007 03:14:02

Leo asked me privately, so I sent him privately my descent for several
generations off James Cudworth.

Looking at my notes, I have no reason why Mary Sarah Goodman should be the
wife of General James Cudworth, so I probably just picked this up from the
Ancestral File or OneWorldTree and hadn't yet verified it.

I need software that keeps track of my "to do" list for me better. At any
rate, Marilyn I'll send you privately my descent and if anyone else wants it,
that's fine. I just didn't want to start a new OT thread that ventures all the
way into the 1800s.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Sir Ralph de Camoys, Lord Camoys, and his Despenser conn

Legg inn av Gjest » 03 jan 2007 03:17:02

In a message dated 1/2/07 5:20:41 PM Pacific Standard Time, mhollick@mac.com
writes:

<< Right from a strict chronological viewpoint, but if you assimilate all
the information and that the Foliot property went to the Hastings, then
it seems that Thomas was the son of John and his wife Elizabeth (---). >>

I don't have that the Foliot property went to the Hastings.
And how sure are we that all the Foliot property went to the Hastings?
Is there a list of what Richard had at his death ?
Thanks
Will Johnson

Peter Stewart

Re: Offspring of King Robert II "le Pieux" of France (972-10

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 03 jan 2007 04:03:50

<MardiM2@aol.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.87.1166683182.30800.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
Thank you, Mr. Stewart, for taking the time to respond expansively to my
questions about the children of Robert II. Absolute accuracy is my aim,
and I
appreciate your providing same.

While on the subject of Robert's offspring, I'm aware of references to a
child attributed to him named Rudolph (b. 1016) who became Archbishop of
Bourges. Since your comments included no mention of Rudolph, I'll assume
(as I did
anyway) that the attribution in incorrect. But could you, or someone
one,
please explain where the mistake is coming from?

This was a mistake by Alberic of Troisfontaines in the 13th century. Under
the year 1060 he named a "Radulfus" who was allegedly archbishop of Bourges
and brother of Henri I, king of Franks. However, the archbishop of Bourges
in 1060 was Aimo of Bourbon, who held the see from 1031 to 1070 and whose
successors until 1120 were named Richard, Hildebert and Leodegar.

Unfortunately this error has gained new currency from Erich Brandenburg,
with "Rudolf" included (as archbishop of Bourges ca 1069) amongst the
children of Robert II, purportedly by a concubine. There is no contemporary
evidence for the person's existence, while his illegitimacy & birth in 1016
appear to be modern inventions.

The mistake by Alberic possiblys derived from confusion of generations with
Gauzlin of Fleury, archbishop of Bourges from 1014 until his death in 1029,
who is thought by some historians to have been an illegitimate son of Hugo
Capet. However, the source for this purported connection is an ambiguous
statement by Ademar of Chabannes, and it is implicitly contradicted by what
we know from a better source of Robert II's unfamiliarity with Gauzlin.

Peter Stewart

John P. Ravilious

Re: Sir Ralph de Camoys, Lord Camoys, and his Despenser conn

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 03 jan 2007 04:51:07

Tuesday, 2 January, 2007


Dear Will, Martin, CE, et al.,

A very happy New Year to you all!

Will, concerning the matter of possible Foliot ancestry of the
Lords Camoys you queried concerning the Foliot properties ca. 1325,
and whether these went (entirely or otherwise) to the Hastings
family.

CP V:541-2, sub Foliot, indicates that Margery Foliot (wife of
Hugh de Hastings) had purparty of 1/2 of the estate of Richard
Foliot, her brother, consisting of Elsing and Weasenham, Norfolk;
Norton and Fenwick, co. Yorks; and Grimston, co. Notts., with four
advowsons [Elsing, Norton, Smitheton and 'Brusellee']. Margaret
Foliot, wife of John de Camoys, had purparty of 1/2 of the estate,
included Gressenhall, Norfolk and its advowson, Lexham (or East
Lexham), Norfolk, and certain other lands and fragments [not in my
notes].

I understand there was a release by John de Camoys and his wife
Margaret Foliot of many of their lands to Margery Foliot and her
husband Hugh de Hastings, but that does not prove Margaret had no
issue. John de Camoys evidently continued to control the advowson
of Gressenhall, presenting to the living as late as 1348. We know
that Gressenhall in fact passed to the Hastings of Elsing, incl. the
advowson: there is no evidence of any Foliot lands being inherited
in the Camoys family, and we would certainly expect some trace (or
evidence of sale) to prove such a descent.

~ Even the advowson of Gressenhall was held by John de Hastings
(eldest son of Margery Foliot) at his death:

' Inquisition taken at Est derham 21 June 3 Hen IV 1402 before
Kings eschaetors for Norfolk relating to descent of manors of
Gressenhale and Estlexham and advowson of churches belonging
and other estates to John Hastyng dec'd. 17 Ric II 1393 and
value of estate.' - A2A, Norfolk Record Office: Hastings Family
of Gressenhall [ MR 81 241 x 3 ]


Hope this is helpful in resolving the issue.

Cheers,

John



WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 1/2/07 5:20:41 PM Pacific Standard Time, mhollick@mac.com
writes:

Right from a strict chronological viewpoint, but if you assimilate all
the information and that the Foliot property went to the Hastings, then
it seems that Thomas was the son of John and his wife Elizabeth (---).

I don't have that the Foliot property went to the Hastings.
And how sure are we that all the Foliot property went to the Hastings?
Is there a list of what Richard had at his death ?
Thanks
Will Johnson

Leo van de Pas

Re: Richard, Earl of Cambridge (d. 1415) - illegitimate??

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 03 jan 2007 09:00:00

"Reported in chronicles in the 1380s (when Richard was conceived and born)"

I have him as born about September 1375. siblings were born 1373 and 1374
and the parents married in 1372.
There are also "stories" that Edward IV was illegitimate. To besmirch
people's reputation illegitimacy always is one that can be used. But I
believe that people in those circles, in those days always had other people
around them and that if it was true more noise would have been made.

With best wishes
Leo van de Pas

----- Original Message -----
From: <MardiM2@aol.com>
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>; <jthiggins@sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2007 5:13 PM
Subject: Richard, Earl of Cambridge (d. 1415) - illegitimate??


Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 17:26:44
From: "John Higgins" <jthiggins@sbcglobal.net
Subject: Richard, Earl of Cambridge (d. 1415) - illegitimate??
To: "Gen-Med" _gen-medieval@rootsweb.com_
(mailto:gen-medieval@rootsweb.com)

The grandfather of King Edward IV was Richard "of Conisburgh", Earl of
Cambridge, who was executed in 1415 after being implicated in a plot
against King
Henry V shortly before the battle of Agincourt. A recently published
history
of that battle, written by Juliet Barker, discusses the "Southampton
plot"
in which Richard was involved, and an endnote in the book mentions
(rather
off-handedly) that Richard was "probably illegitimate". I hadn't heard
of this
conjecture before, and I'm not presently able to check out the limited
sources mentioned by the author. Is anyone familiar with this story - or
what the
basis for it is?



____________________________________

Date: 22 Dec 2003 00:30:41
From: _batruth@hotmail.com_ (mailto:batruth@hotmail.com) (Brad Verity)
To: _GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com_ (mailto:GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com)
Subject: Re: Britain's Real Monarch

There is contemporary evidence that Duchess Cecily Neville's
father-in-law
Richard of Conisburgh, Earl of Cambridge, was illegitimate, as historian
T.B.
Pugh discusses. His mother's affair with John Holland was reported in
chronicles in the 1380s (when Richard was conceived and born), and Edmund
of
Langley, Duke of York, curiously makes no mention or provision at all in
his will
for his younger son.

-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Matt Tompkins

Rice in medieval East Anglia

Legg inn av Matt Tompkins » 03 jan 2007 16:22:40

Dora Smith wrote:
Matt:
Can you please send me the details that correspond to what you said below.
I'd be very interested to have them. Thanks!

As for de Rys, this sounds like one of the Norman names some people think
Edmund's name may descend from.


Sorry to take so long to reply - I was away over Christmas and the
New Year. Here are the sources for the Rice/Rys references I mentioned
before, plus some new ones.

The nine 1638 references can be found in C.E. Banks (ed.), 'Able Men of
Suffolk, 1638; transcribed from the original in the Public Record
Office, London, English, in the State Papers Domestic, Charles I, vol.
411' (Boston, 1931).

Five people called Ryce, Ryse and Rise are listed in the 1524 lay
subsidy roll for Suffolk, in Bures, Walsham, Ipswich and Haughley
('Suffolk in 1524, being the Return for a Subsidy granted in 1523',
Suffolk Green Books 10 (Woodbridge, 1910), pp. 20, 53, 212, 321).

Three people called Ryce (one a yeoman of the guard) are listed in the
1522 military survey in just one Suffolk hundred, in Bures, Brent
Eleigh and Preston (J. Pond (ed.), 'The Military Survey of 1522 for
Babergh Hundred', Suffolk Rec Soc 28 (1986), 63, 105, 106).

The 1445/6 references to John Rys and his wife Elizabeth selling land
in Mildenhall are in W. Rye (ed.), 'A Calendar of the Feet of Fines for
Suffolk' (Ipswich, 1900), 302, 304.

In 1403 a Nicholas Rys, clerk, was one of six feoffees who acquired the
manors of Ixworth Thorpe, Wyken, Norton and Belhawe (W.A. Copinger,
'The Manors of Suffolk: Notes on their History and Devolution', i
(Manchester, 1905), 267).

The 1327 references to Robert Ryse who paid 7d. tax in Worlingham and
William Rys who paid 2s. in Brettenham are in 'Suffolk in 1327: being a
Subsidy Return', Suffolk Green Books 9, ii (Woodbridge, 1906), 86, 159.
The latter is probably the same man as the William Rees of Brettenham
who in 1338-9 sold land in Finborough, Combes, Battisford and Hitcham
with his wife Alice ('Feet of Fines for Suffolk', 185).

It is interesting that this man's name was spelt both Rys and Rees.
In 1342 John and Joan Riis or Rees held the manor of Argents in Stutton
and in 1380 William Riis or Rees sold it (Copinger, 'Manors', vi, 102).
Before the late medieval vowel shift (which you mentioned) 'rys',
'ris' and 'riis' would have been pronounced 'reece', so in
the 13th and 14th centuries 'rees' was probably the same name. If
so, the following references would also be relevant.

In 1394-5 a William Rees was one of five feoffees who acquired the
manor of Kettleburgh, in 1323-4 a John Rees, chaplain, sold land in
Pettaugh,* and in 1288-9 John Rees and his wife Matilda sold land in
Ashbocking near Gosbeck ('Feet of Fines for Suffolk', 269, 152, 93).
*In 1313 a John Res sold three roods in Pettaugh to Leiston Abbey (CPR
Edw II, i, 1307-13, p. 482.

In 1400 a John Rees was one of the tenants of the manor of Forncett in
Norfolk who was ordered to do fealty at the next court (F. Davenport,
The Economic Development of a Norfolk Manor (Cambridge, 1906), p.
lxxiii).

The 1379 Poll Tax references, to Hugh de Rys in Toftrees and Phillip de
Rys in West Raynham in Norfolk are in Carolyn Fenwick (ed.), 'The Poll
Taxes of 1377, 1379 and 1381, Pt 2: Lincs-Westmor', Records of Social
and Economic History, New Series 29 (Oxford, 2000), 103.

de Rys does indeed look a bit French, but it should be remembered that
this record was in Latin, with all forenames and some surnames
latinised, so de Rys may have been the clerk's latinisation of a
surname which in the original English was 'of Rys', or 'of the
rys' or even 'atte rys' or 'by/in/next/over the rys'. The
fact that Hugh and Phillip lived in remote rural communities and both
paid only 4d - the lowest possible tax rate in 1379 - suggests that
they were from bottom of the social structure, poor husbandmen at best
and perhaps even mere farm labourers. (Much the same could be said of
the Robert Ryse mentioned in the 1327 Suffolk lay subsidy, though
William Rys of Brettenham seems to have been wealthier - IPMs of
three Sampsons from 1440, 1483 and 1511 mention a Ryses or Rices Manor
in Brettenham; Copinger, 'Manors', iii, 141,142).

What were the Norman names which some people think Rice derives from?
In the answer to Nat Taylor which I will post next I suggest that the
surname may have derived from the Old English word hris, meaning
brushwood, possibly via its Middle English form rys, ris.

Matt Tompkins

Matt Tompkins

East Anglian origins of Rice

Legg inn av Matt Tompkins » 03 jan 2007 16:59:56

Nathaniel Taylor wrote:
I'm not sure that just because the name appears early it cannot be from
a Welsh forename. Reaney & Wilson's earliest references are sparse and
scattered: Wm Res in Lincolnshire (a 1203 Curia Regis roll); John Rees
in a Suffolk Fine of 1288; then others in Shropshire & Worcester who are
even more likely to be Welsh.

Your additional 14th-c. citations don't suggest to me that the name
cannot be simply from the Welsh forename. I'm sure McKinley's
observation about the paucity of Welsh names is true in the aggregate;
does his work (which I haven't seen) opine on this particular case?
Even the 'de Rys' form could have evolved into that by erroneous
assimilation and not originally have been a toponymic.

If you've given thought to this name in that region, do you have
candidate places or topographic words which might lie behind it?


Sorry to take so long to reply - I went home immediately after my
last post, and then away for Christmas, and so didn't see your answer
until a couple of days ago.

It isn't impossible that 13th- and 14th-century East Anglians had
surnames formed from a Welsh personal name, but it is rather
improbable. There is just no evidence for migration from Wales to the
region at such early dates, certainly none in the form of unequivocally
Welsh surnames (see McKinley's 'Norfolk and Suffolk Surnames' - or
any of his other works - and Reaney's 1952 article entitled
'Onomasticon Essexiensis' in 'Essex Review' 61, nos. 243, 244).
Some Suffolk names do derive from Celtic personal names introduced by
Bretons after the Conquest, but Rice has never been mentioned in that
connection, and I am doubtful whether Rhys was ever in use in Brittany
(it seems not to have been in the corpus of medieval Cornish names, so
I suspect it was a specifically Welsh name, rather a general P-Celtic
one).

I do have a likely candidate for a local explanation of the East
Anglian surname Rice - the Old English (possibly also Old
Scandinavian) word 'hris', meaning brushwood. In Middle English
this became rys or ris, occasionally rise; in the early modern period
it was generally spelt ryse, rise, ryce, rice; and in more recent times
it stabilised as rice, still meaning brushwood (the OED gives many
examples, from 1205 to the last decade of the 19th century).

Hris could have given rise [no pun intended] to either a toponymic or
topographic surname. It is a common element in place-names, sometimes
surviving in their modern forms as Rise- or Ris-, but also often as
Rice-. Examples are Rice Bridge in Little Clacton in Essex, Rice
Bridge in Bolney, Sussex, and Ricebridge in Reigate, Surrey (there is
also a Risebridge in Romford in Essex, and one of the Suffolk hundreds
was called Risebridge, spelt Rysbregge in 1334). There are also a
number of simplex place-names formed from 'hris' alone - Rise in
Yorkshire, for example. Rise Hall in the parish of Akenham in Suffolk
may possibly be the place from which the Suffolk Rices took their name
- it was called Rice Hall in the 16th century (though the name may
instead have been a corruption of Rous, since its pre-1260 lords were
called le Rous - J. Corder, 'The Visitation of Suffolk, 1561',
Harleian Soc. NS 2 (1981), 173; and Copinger, 'Manors of Suffolk', ii,
228-30).

Hris, in its ME form ris, rys, could also have given rise to a
topographic surname. This was even recognised by Reaney - see his
entry for Rise, which offers 'hris' as one of two alternative
explanations for William de Ris in 1210 and Robert del Rys in 1332 (the
other is that it is a toponym, from a simplex place-name Rise). For
some reason Reaney seems to have assumed that whenever the name
appeared without a preposition it must have been a Welsh patronym -
but of course not all topographic surnames had a preposition, and most
that did lost it pretty quickly, so when Ris/Rys appears in East Anglia
at an early date a ME topographic (or OE/ME toponymic) explanation must
be a more likely origin that a Welsh patronymic one.

Matt Tompkins

Douglas Richardson

Evidence of Sir John de Camoys' two marriages

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 03 jan 2007 17:07:12

Dear Newsgroup ~

Actually there is evidence that Margaret Foliot, wife of Sir John de
Camoys, died without surviving issue. According to an inquisition
taken 30 September 1360, Sir John de Camoys, then aged 40, was holding
the manor of Grimston, Norfolk jointly with Hugh de Hastings, aged 25,
as co-heirs of Richard Foliot. Sir John de Camoys was holding his
share "for life by the law of England after the death of Margaret, late
his wife." [Reference: Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem, 10
(1921): 502].

In other words, Sir John de Camoys was holding his share of Grimston by
curtesy of England, which means that he and his late wife had had issue
but that none were living in 1360. At Sir John de Camoys' death, all
of his wife Margaret's properties passed to her sister, Margery
(Foliot) Hastings' son and heir, Hugh de Hastings.

As for evidence that Sir John de Camoys remarried and had further issue
by another wife, it is known that Sir John's son and heir, Sir Thomas
Camoys, was near related to Sir William le Latimer, 4th Lord Latimer.
The kinship between the two must have been quite close. In 1375, the
king granted Lord Latimer various tenements and houses in Calais by the
king formerly held by John Dayre, with remainder in male tail to Thomas
Camoys. Likewise, Lord Latimer bequeathed his "cousin" Thomas Camoys
the manor of Wotton, Surrey in his 1381 will. Dugdale also states that
Sir Thomas Camoys did military service during the early years of King
Richard II under Lord Latimer.

These arrangements create the impression that Lord Latimer treated
Thomas Camoys as a near male kinsman, Lord Latimer having only one
living daughter and heiress. If the term "cousin" can be extended to
mean nephew, then Sir Thomas Camoys' mother may well have been a sister
of Lord Latimer. If so, this would make Sir Thomas Camoys' mother the
daughter of William le Latimer, 3rd Lord Latimer (born c.1301, died
1335), and his wife, Elizabeth, daughter of John Botetourt, Knt., 1st
Lord Botetourt. Certainly the chronology is acceptable for Sir Thomas
Camoys to be the grandson of this couple. If correct, this would mean
that Sir Thomas Camoys was named for his uncle, Thomas le Latimer, who
in turn was named for his uncle, Sir Thomas Botetourt (died 1322), of
Upton, Norfolk and Great Bradley, Suffolk.

This matter deserves further study.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Douglas Richardson

Re: Sir Ralph de Camoys, Lord Camoys, and his Despenser conn

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 03 jan 2007 18:07:52

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

< I don't have a second wife for John Baron Camoys of Bekerton.
< What do you have?
<
< Will Johnson

Dear Will ~

Sir John de Camoys, living 1362, may have held Bekerton, Norfolk (a
Camoys family property), but he was never known as John Baron Camoys.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Nathaniel Taylor

Re: East Anglian origins of Rice

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 03 jan 2007 18:13:41

In article <1167839996.704174.48720@42g2000cwt.googlegroups.com>,
"Matt Tompkins" <mllt1@le.ac.uk> wrote:

Nathaniel Taylor wrote:
I'm not sure that just because the name appears early it cannot be from
a Welsh forename. Reaney & Wilson's earliest references are sparse and
scattered: Wm Res in Lincolnshire (a 1203 Curia Regis roll); John Rees
in a Suffolk Fine of 1288; then others in Shropshire & Worcester who are
even more likely to be Welsh.

Your additional 14th-c. citations don't suggest to me that the name
cannot be simply from the Welsh forename. I'm sure McKinley's
observation about the paucity of Welsh names is true in the aggregate;
does his work (which I haven't seen) opine on this particular case?
Even the 'de Rys' form could have evolved into that by erroneous
assimilation and not originally have been a toponymic.

If you've given thought to this name in that region, do you have
candidate places or topographic words which might lie behind it?

Sorry to take so long to reply - I went home immediately after my
last post, and then away for Christmas, and so didn't see your answer
until a couple of days ago.

It isn't impossible that 13th- and 14th-century East Anglians had
surnames formed from a Welsh personal name, but it is rather
improbable. There is just no evidence for migration from Wales to the
region at such early dates, certainly none in the form of unequivocally
Welsh surnames (see McKinley's 'Norfolk and Suffolk Surnames' - or
any of his other works - and Reaney's 1952 article entitled
'Onomasticon Essexiensis' in 'Essex Review' 61, nos. 243, 244).
Some Suffolk names do derive from Celtic personal names introduced by
Bretons after the Conquest, but Rice has never been mentioned in that
connection, and I am doubtful whether Rhys was ever in use in Brittany
(it seems not to have been in the corpus of medieval Cornish names, so
I suspect it was a specifically Welsh name, rather a general P-Celtic
one).

I do have a likely candidate for a local explanation of the East
Anglian surname Rice - the Old English (possibly also Old
Scandinavian) word 'hris', meaning brushwood. In Middle English
this became rys or ris, occasionally rise; in the early modern period
it was generally spelt ryse, rise, ryce, rice; and in more recent times
it stabilised as rice, still meaning brushwood (the OED gives many
examples, from 1205 to the last decade of the 19th century).

Hris could have given rise [no pun intended] to either a toponymic or
topographic surname. It is a common element in place-names, sometimes
surviving in their modern forms as Rise- or Ris-, but also often as
Rice-. Examples are Rice Bridge in Little Clacton in Essex, Rice
Bridge in Bolney, Sussex, and Ricebridge in Reigate, Surrey (there is
also a Risebridge in Romford in Essex, and one of the Suffolk hundreds
was called Risebridge, spelt Rysbregge in 1334). There are also a
number of simplex place-names formed from 'hris' alone - Rise in
Yorkshire, for example. Rise Hall in the parish of Akenham in Suffolk
may possibly be the place from which the Suffolk Rices took their name
- it was called Rice Hall in the 16th century (though the name may
instead have been a corruption of Rous, since its pre-1260 lords were
called le Rous - J. Corder, 'The Visitation of Suffolk, 1561',
Harleian Soc. NS 2 (1981), 173; and Copinger, 'Manors of Suffolk', ii,
228-30).

Hris, in its ME form ris, rys, could also have given rise to a
topographic surname. This was even recognised by Reaney - see his
entry for Rise, which offers 'hris' as one of two alternative
explanations for William de Ris in 1210 and Robert del Rys in 1332 (the
other is that it is a toponym, from a simplex place-name Rise). For
some reason Reaney seems to have assumed that whenever the name
appeared without a preposition it must have been a Welsh patronym -
but of course not all topographic surnames had a preposition, and most
that did lost it pretty quickly, so when Ris/Rys appears in East Anglia
at an early date a ME topographic (or OE/ME toponymic) explanation must
be a more likely origin that a Welsh patronymic one.

Matt,

Thanks for this well researched and reasoned discussion. I now agree
that this (or some similar) Danelaw / English origin of Rice is
certainly plausible and would be more likely than any Welsh forename
borrowing for this time & place. Reaney also cites an early
13th-century 'Res' in Lincolnshire, which may be an analogous formation,
or something else entirely?

Nat Taylor
http://www.nltaylor.net

Matt Tompkins

Re: East Anglian origins of Rice

Legg inn av Matt Tompkins » 03 jan 2007 19:00:19

Nathaniel Taylor wrote:
borrowing for this time & place. Reaney also cites an early
13th-century 'Res' in Lincolnshire, which may be an analogous formation,
or something else entirely?


I agree - it may be derived from 'hris', or it may be something else
entirely (including the Welsh forename Rhys)!

Matt

Gjest

Re: Temples of Frankton / Francton/ Franckton and their rela

Legg inn av Gjest » 04 jan 2007 00:06:02

The "death of the eldest son and eldest daughter" must be these two

http://www.familysearch.org - IGI - British Isles - Batch C040202
Johannes to "Thomae Hamond and Susannae" 28 Feb 1636[/7]
at Frankton, Warwick

Elizabetha 1 Aug 1638 (same parents)
at Frankton, Warwick

Will Johnson

John Higgins

Re: Richard, Earl of Cambridge (d. 1415) - illegitimate??

Legg inn av John Higgins » 04 jan 2007 01:40:28

Thanks for pointing out this post from Brad Verity in 2003 in the archives. I will look for the T. B. Pugh book which he mentions...
----- Original Message -----
From: MardiM2@aol.com
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com ; jthiggins@sbcglobal.net
Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2007 10:13 PM
Subject: Richard, Earl of Cambridge (d. 1415) - illegitimate??


Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 17:26:44
From: "John Higgins" <jthiggins@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Richard, Earl of Cambridge (d. 1415) - illegitimate??
To: "Gen-Med" gen-medieval@rootsweb.com

The grandfather of King Edward IV was Richard "of Conisburgh", Earl of Cambridge, who was executed in 1415 after being implicated in a plot against King Henry V shortly before the battle of Agincourt. A recently published history of that battle, written by Juliet Barker, discusses the "Southampton plot" in which Richard was involved, and an endnote in the book mentions (rather off-handedly) that Richard was "probably illegitimate". I hadn't heard of this conjecture before, and I'm not presently able to check out the limited sources mentioned by the author. Is anyone familiar with this story - or what the basis for it is?



------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 22 Dec 2003 00:30:41
From: batruth@hotmail.com (Brad Verity)
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Britain's Real Monarch

There is contemporary evidence that Duchess Cecily Neville's father-in-law Richard of Conisburgh, Earl of Cambridge, was illegitimate, as historian T.B. Pugh discusses. His mother's affair with John Holland was reported in chronicles in the 1380s (when Richard was conceived and born), and Edmund of Langley, Duke of York, curiously makes no mention or provision at all in his will for his younger son.

John Higgins

Re: Royal descents

Legg inn av John Higgins » 04 jan 2007 06:48:50

A week or two ago, the message appended below indicated that the on-line
Roglo database showed that Princes William and Harry have 868,166 descents
from Geoffroi V Plantagenet. Since then, Olivier Guionneau and I have had
some correspondence regarding errors in the Roglo database in the early
stages of descent from Geoffroi. He has kindly made a handful of
corrections to the database, and the descent count now shows in that DB as
810,164. This is quite a reduction based on pruning just half a dozen or so
incorrect connections - an interesting object lesson.

Despite this large number of incorrect descents that have been removed with
just a few corrections, there are undoubtedly other invalid descents still
there. More important, there are quite a number of descents - perhaps
70,000 or more by my count - that are not included in the Roglo database,
which (like any database) is far from complete. This is not intended to
disparage the Roglo database, which has improved markedly over time and can
be a very useful finding tool, but just to serve as a warning that, like any
other tool, it should be used with some care.

And the specific counts of descents are not the important point here, since
Plantagenet descents (at least) are easy to find for most folks with any
royal or noble connection. Rather, the different counts indicate gaps or
errors to different sets of data and thus can be a tool to isolate
differences and omissions in ancestral information.

Thanks go to Olivier for showing the interest to make this database more
accurate.

----- Original Message -----
From: <OlivierGuionneau@gmail.com
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Sent: Monday, December 25, 2006 2:31 AM
Subject: Re: Royal descents


William Windsor, Prince of Great Britain is a descendant of the 24th
generation of Geoffroi V Plantagenêt, duc de Normandie. 4 branches

William Windsor, Prince of Great Britain is also a descendant of the
25th generation of Geoffroi V Plantagenêt, duc de Normandie. 126
branches

William Windsor, Prince of Great Britain is also a descendant of the
26th generation of Geoffroi V Plantagenêt, duc de Normandie. 1,782
branches

William Windsor, Prince of Great Britain is also a descendant of the
27th generation of Geoffroi V Plantagenêt, duc de Normandie. 13,000
branches.

William Windsor, Prince of Great Britain is also a descendant of the
28th generation of Geoffroi V Plantagenêt, duc de Normandie. 54,660
branches

William Windsor, Prince of Great Britain is also a descendant of the
29th generation of Geoffroi V Plantagenêt, duc de Normandie. 137,211
branches

William Windsor, Prince of Great Britain is also a descendant of the
30th generation of Geoffroi V Plantagenêt, duc de Normandie. 218,159
branches

William Windsor, Prince of Great Britain is also a descendant of the
31st generation of Geoffroi V Plantagenêt, duc de Normandie. 222,883
branches

William Windsor, Prince of Great Britain is also a descendant of the
32nd generation of Geoffroi V Plantagenêt, duc de Normandie. 144,240
branches

William Windsor, Prince of Great Britain is also a descendant of the
33rd generation of Geoffroi V Plantagenêt, duc de Normandie. 58,792
branches

William Windsor, Prince of Great Britain is also a descendant of the
34th generation of Geoffroi V Plantagenêt, duc de Normandie. 14,562
branches

William Windsor, Prince of Great Britain is also a descendant of the
35th generation of Geoffroi V Plantagenêt, duc de Normandie. 2,425
branches

William Windsor, Prince of Great Britain is also a descendant of the
36th generation of Geoffroi V Plantagenêt, duc de Normandie. 298
branches

William Windsor, Prince of Great Britain is also a descendant of the
37th generation of Geoffroi V Plantagenêt, duc de Normandie. 24
branches

Total: 868,166 relationship links


source : http://geneweb.inria.fr/roglo?lang=en


Leo van de Pas

Re: the house of Avesnes, and the advocates of Tournai

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 04 jan 2007 22:10:50

Dear John,

I hoped Warlop would have something, but nothing there. You say you had not
seen previously the identification of Fastre I d'Oisy's wife as a Avesnes,
but on genealogics she is recorded as Ade (d'Avesnes). My source is
Schwennicke volume III/1 Tafel 50. Here she is recorded as daughter of
(Wedric II).

The interesting part is that as sources is given :
Leon Vanderkindere, Le Chronique de Gislebert de Mons, 2nd edition 1904
Eberhard Winkhaus, Ahnen zu Karl Dem Grossen und Widukind
Dek, the Counts of Holland
and several more, I stop quoting here because I do have Dr. AWE Dek on the
Counts of Holland.

The chapter on the House of Avesnes starts with

Fastre d'Oisy, voogd van Doornik, end 11th or beginning 12th century,
married Ada or Ida, daughter of Wedric II, Lord of Avesnes, who died about
1076.

Fastre has a footnote, which seems tantalising, S. A. Waller Zeper, Jan van
Henegouwen, heer van Beaumont, The Hague 1914, Tafel 1
would love to see that tafel.

Sorry that I could not be of more help.
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia.



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<mhollick@mac.com>; <davidbhepworth@hotmail.com>; <hw.bradley@verizon.net>
Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 7:37 AM
Subject: the house of Avesnes, and the advocates of Tournai


Thursday, 4 January, 2007


Dear Peter, Leo, et al.,

While currently reading through notes from Vanderkindere's
edition of Gislebert de Mons (not a short-term project), I noted the
following chart which is largely supported by the documents and notes
I have read thus far [1]:



Wéry le Sor (le Roux), épouse l'héritière de Chièvres.
I
Wéry le Barbu.
________I__________________
I I
Thierry d'Avesnes, Ida, épouse Fastré 1er,
+ vers 1106. avoué de Tournai,
+ avant 1092.
_________________I____________
I I
Gossuin d'Oisy, Fastré II, avoué de Tournai,
seigneur d'Avesnes + apres llll.
a la mort de son oncle Thierry. I
I
I
Gautier Ier Pulechel, avoué de Tournai,
épouse la fille d'Evrard Radou 1er,
châtelain de Tournai, + 1147.
_________________________________I__
I I
Thierry, + jeune. Nicolas,
épouse Mathilde de Laroche,
+ apres 1169.
_________________________________I___
I I
Jacques, + 1191, Ida,
épouse Adelvie de Guise. épouse Guillaume IV,
châtelain de Saint-Omer.



My own notes and the entries I've seen in Genealogics takes this
record from Fastré I onward, but I had not seen the identification of
his wife and her brief ancestry previously. The marriage of Nicholas
d'Avesnes to Maud/Matilda de la Roche is probably the earliest
important marriage of the family from a traditional genealogical
perspective, as this brings in the Carolingian and other ancestry of
the Counts of Namur. The descent from Jacques d'Avesnes on down is
rather well known, esp. as regards his younger son Burchard's
marriage to Margaret of Flanders and all that was engendered there
(Philippa of Hainaut, Edward III of England's queen, &c, &c.).

If there is any correction to the above, or any linkage to any
further ancestry (auspicious or otherwise), that information would be
greatly appreciated.

Cheers,

John *



NOTES:

[1] Leon Vanderkindere, ed., La Chronique de Gislebert de Mons
(Bruxelles: Libraire Kiessling et C'ie, 1904), p. 76, note (1).


=======================================


Descendants of Fastré I, advocatus of Tournai


1 Fastré d'Oisy
----------------------------------------
Death: ca 1092[1]
Occ: advocatus of Tournai [Vogt of Doornik]

Spouse: Ida d'Avesnes [2]

Children: Fastre II (->1111)


1.1 Fastré II d'Oisy
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 1111[1]
Occ: advocatus of Tournai [Vogt of Doornik]

Spouse: Richilda[1]

Children: Wautier I (-1147)


1.1.1 Wautier I d'Oisy
----------------------------------------
Death: 1147[2],[1]
Occ: lord of Avesnes, Conde and Leuze
advocatus of Tournai [Vogt of Doornik]


' Walter le beau ', lord of Avesnes [ "Walterus dominus de Avethnis,
agnomine Pelukels " - Gislebert of Mons, Chronicon Hanoniense,
43 (p. 75)[2]]

Spouse: Ada of Tournai
Father: Everard I, châtelain of Tournai

Children: Nicholas (-~1170)
Everard (-1190)
Thierry


1.1.1.1 Nicholas of Avesnes
----------------------------------------
Death: abt 1170[1]
Occ: lord of Avesnes

lord of Avesnes

Walter of Avesnes was succeeded by his son Nicholas:
' Waltero predicto succesit Nicholaus filius ejus, homo pacificus et
discretus;...
Ille Nicholaus uxorem habuit Mathildem, filiam Henrici comitis de
Rocha in Ardenna, patrui sepedicti Henrici comitis Namurcensis, et
Alidis comitisse Hanoniensis,... ' [Gislebert of Mons, Chronicon
Hanoniense, 43 (pp. 76-77)[2]]


Spouse: Mahaut de la Roche[1]
Father: Henri, comte de la Roche (-1138)
Mother: Mahaut of Limburg

Children: Jacques (-1191)
Fastré


1.1.1.1.1 Jacques of Avesnes
----------------------------------------
Death: 7 Sep 1191, Battle of Arsuf, Palestine[3]
Occ: lord of Avesnes

leader of the Flemish troops, 3rd Crusade
commander of the Flemish contingent at the Battle of Arsuf,
7 Sept 1191 (slain)[4]


cf. Gislebert of Mons, Chronicon Hanoniense, 43 (p. 77)[2]]


Spouse: Adela de Guise[1]
Death: 1207[5]
Father: Bouchard, seigneur de Guise (-?1166)
Mother: Alix

Children: Wautier II (-ca1246), m. Margaret of Blois
Jacques
Guillaume (-1219)
Burchard (-1244),
Mahaut
Alix
Ida
Ada


1.1.1.1.1.1 Burchard of Avesnes
----------------------------------------
Death: 1244[1]

4th son (named for maternal grandfather)
cleric, canon of St. Pierre of Lille and archdeacon of Laon;
left the church.

Knight, of Avesnes; divorced 1221 (consanguinity)

1st husband of Margaret of Flanders

Spouse: Margaret of Flanders
Birth: 2 Jun 1202[1]
Death: 10 Feb 1280
Father: Baldwin IX, Count of Flanders and Hainaut
(Latin) Emperor of Constantinople (1171-1205)
Mother: Marie of Champagne (ca1173-1204)
Marr: bef 23 Jul 1212[1]

Children: John d'Avesnes, count of Hainaut(1218-1257)


1. Paul Theroff, "The Counts of Flanders and Hainault," Paul
Theroff's Dynastic Genealogy Files,
http://worldroots.clicktron.com/brigitte/theroff/
2. Leon Vanderkindere, ed., "La Chronique de Gislebert de Mons,"
Bruxelles: Libraire Kiessling et C'ie, 1904,
courtesy Googlebooks.
3. Sir Steven Runciman, "A History of the Crusades (3 vols),"
Cambridge Univ. Press, 1954.
4. Sir Steven Runciman, "A History of the Crusades (3 vols),"
Cambridge: Cambridge Univ. Press, 1954.
5. Mike Talbot, "de Guise," Feb 6, 1999,
GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com.







* John P. Ravilious

Gjest

Re: the house of Avesnes, and the advocates of Tournai

Legg inn av Gjest » 05 jan 2007 06:45:21

In a message dated 1/4/07 12:37:44 PM Pacific Standard Time, Therav3 writes:

<< The descent from Jacques d'Avesnes on down is
rather well known, esp. as regards his younger son Burchard's
marriage to Margaret of Flanders and all that was engendered there
(Philippa of Hainaut, Edward III of England's queen, &c, &c.). >>

This also goes down via his brother Walter (d Jan 1243/4) to all sorts of
interesting people through the Counts of St Pol and then on into the Widville
family and then everyone.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: the house of Avesnes, and the advocates of Tournai

Legg inn av Gjest » 05 jan 2007 07:00:09

In a message dated 1/4/07 12:37:44 PM Pacific Standard Time, Therav3 writes:

<< Spouse: Margaret of Flanders
Birth: 2 Jun 1202[1]
Death: 10 Feb 1280
Father: Baldwin IX, Count of Flanders and Hainaut
(Latin) Emperor of Constantinople (1171-1205)
Mother: Marie of Champagne (ca1173-1204)
Marr: bef 23 Jul 1212[1]

Children: John d'Avesnes, count of Hainaut(1218-1257) >>


But but.... also children Baudoin d'Avesnes Sire of Beaumont b Sep 1219 ?
He m Felicite de Coucy and had Beatrice d'Avesnes

Beatrice m Henry IV Count of Luxembourg and had Henry VII, the Holy Roman
Emperor

yes? no?

Thanks
Will

Gjest

Re: Ogle of Pinchbeck

Legg inn av Gjest » 05 jan 2007 18:50:03

In a message dated 1/5/2007 7:47:35 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
henry.neagle@ntlworld.com writes:

If you would like a
look up then please let me know.



If you could tell me what page it's on, I think this volume is in google
books.

Willem Nabuurs

RE: Otgiva of Luxemburg - Revisited

Legg inn av Willem Nabuurs » 05 jan 2007 19:18:34

A quick search in the Dutch library guide shows that this book is available
for local research in the university libraries of 5 dutch universities
(Amsterdam, Groningen, Leiden, Tilburg, Utrecht).

Willem Nabuurs

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com] Namens Stewart Baldwin
Verzonden: vrijdag 5 januari 2007 18:35
Aan: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Onderwerp: Re: Otgiva of Luxemburg - Revisited

On 5 Jan 2007 08:17:10 -0800, "Steve Barnhoorn" <sbarnhoorn@mail.com>
wrote:

Peter: ....(Cartul. of the Abbey of Marchiennes--Carpentier,
Cambresis, preuves, p. 6); do you have the full title on this source?
Can't seem to locate this in any library.

This citation might be somewhat misleading. The author seems to be
saying that the quote comes from the cartulary of Marchiennes, and
that it was taken from page 6 of the "preuves" section of Carpentier's
work. In that case, searches including the word "Marchiennes" would
probably turn up empty, and it would then probably be the book
published in 1664, a copy of which is currently being offered for
$5000+ at Abebooks from the following link:

http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchR ... y=17&tn=ca
mbresis&x=49

While most of us do not have $5000 in pocket change sitting around to
buy a book on a whim, the bibliographical information at that link
might prove useful in locating a library copy.

Stewart Baldwin


-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
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wjhonson

Re: Ogle of Pinchbeck

Legg inn av wjhonson » 05 jan 2007 22:56:26

The Lincolnshire Pedigrees is one of the things listed on my jump page.
Last week I was poking at it, trying to figure out if this Google
Books entry is actually all four volumes or just one of the volumes ?

http://books.google.com/books?vid=OCLC27765536

Does anyone know? It has at least a thousand pages. I did a search
for Ogle and hit four entires, although two were to the same page.
I've transcribed those entries here

http://countyhistorian.com/cecilweb/ind ... _Pinchbeck

Thanks
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Bulkley of Eaton and Alstanton and the Popham Family

Legg inn av Gjest » 05 jan 2007 23:47:03

In a message dated 1/5/07 9:41:52 AM Pacific Standard Time,
designeconomic@yahoo.com writes:

<< Or is it
possible that he married his father's wife? Or did he
marry Catherine Popham's sister? >>

Wouldn't marrying your father's wife (i.e. your stepmother) had caused a
scandel which would appear in the records ?

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Ursula, dau. of Robert Nelson

Legg inn av Gjest » 06 jan 2007 00:01:02

In a message dated 1/5/07 8:36:46 AM Pacific Standard Time,
starbuck95@hotmail.com writes:

<<
Eustace Whitney, of Clyrow, co. Radnor, Gent, Bachr, 30, & Ursula
Nelson, Spr, 16, dau. of Robert Nelson, of St Martin in the Fields,
Midx., Esq., who consents ...

Knowing that Robert Nelson is called "of St Martin in the Fields" in this Jun
1664 document I find in the extracted baptisms of St Martin in the Fields

Edmund Nelson 28 Oct 1649
Robert Nelson 21 Dec 1651
Henry Nelson 1 Aug 1656

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Ursula, dau. of Robert Nelson

Legg inn av Gjest » 06 jan 2007 00:05:02

In a message dated 1/5/07 3:01:15 PM Pacific Standard Time, WJhonson@aol.com
writes:

<< Knowing that Robert Nelson is called "of St Martin in the Fields" in this
Jun
1664 document I find in the extracted baptisms of St Martin in the Fields

Edmund Nelson 28 Oct 1649
Robert Nelson 21 Dec 1651
Henry Nelson 1 Aug 1656 >>

I neglected to mention FATHER Robert Nelson on all these. Two also say
mother MARY. The other is silent.
Will

Gjest

Re: Wife of Sir Robert de Roos, of Wark, Northumberland

Legg inn av Gjest » 08 jan 2007 16:46:01

Monday, 8 January, 2007


Hello All,

A little over one year ago, there was discussion on the list
concerning the identity of the wife of Sir Robert de Ros of Wark
(d. 1269), alleged to have been Mary Longespee, an obscure daughter
of William Longespee, Earl of Salisbury and illegitimate son of King
Henry II of England [1]. In the last message in the thread, Linda
Jack identified 4 items in Notes & Queries which might be on topic,
but I see no followup on this item to date.

Below is the text of these four Notes & Queries; in addition,
there were replies, responses (possibly counter-strikes) also noted
between the various authors, D. C. Elwes being prominent among them.
I have included those where found below, and have sought to keep
everything in combat... er, chronological order.

Unfortunately, I see nothing that bears on the Mary Longespee
question. There are however some interesting items, incl. the Mary
le Rus theory (apparently unsupportable in the end), an erroneous
de Clare wife assigned to William de Braose of Bramber (d. 1290),
and the identification of the wives and issue of Sir Giles de
Braose of Woodlands, Dorset.

I did find it interesting that D. C. Elwes stated in 1874,
concerning Mary de Ros, wife of William de Braose, that she
" must be searched for in quite a different branch of the family,
viz., that one connected with Lincolnshire " [see below]. I had
mentioned in another thread that she would appear to be more likely
placed as daughter of a brother [likely of Sir Piers] of Sir Robert
de Ros, and that Sir Robert's daughter Mary may have been the Mary
found married to Ralph de Tony (d. 1295), elsewhere identified as
possibly of the de Brus family of Annandale. Later in 1874, D. C.
Elwes noted the following in re: the death of Mary, 3rd wife of
William de Braose:

' In Close Roll, 20 Edward II., m. 7, it is stated - "The king has
learned by Inquisition that Mary wife of William de Braose deceased
held lands in Yorkshire of William de Ros of Hamlake. The
Escheator is not to intermeddle with such lands." ' [2]

If these Yorkshire lands can be identified, we may in fact be
able to prove the parentage of Mary de Ros, wife of William de
Braose.

I hope this is of use to those interested in the de Braose family.
Also, if any has in fact found further support (or disproof) of the
Longespee identification proposed, I would be glad to hear of it.

Cheers,

John



NOTES

[1] See D. Richardson, Doug Smith, Adrian Channing et al., <Wife of
Sir Robert de Roos, of Wark, Northumberland>, SGM, 26 Dec 2005
et seq. The last post in the thread was Linda Jack, on 31 Dec 2005.

[2] D. C. Elwes, Notes and Queries, Fifth Series, Vol. 2 (Jul-Dec 1874),
pp. 236-237. See full text, below.



================================================


Notes and Queries, Fourth Series, Vol. 12 (Jul-Dec 1873), p. 495

' MARY, DAUGHTER OF WM. DE ROOS. - What was the date of her death? She
married, first, Wm. de Braose, who died 1290; secondly, Ralph de Cobham,
who died 1325; thirdly, Thomas de Brotherton, Earl of Norfolk, who died
1338.
D. C. E.
The Crescent, Bedford. '


~ Reply to this query was made in the same volume:
Notes and Queries, Fourth Series, Vol. 12 (Jul-Dec 1873), p. 523

' MARY, DAUGHTER OF WILLIAM DE ROS (4th S. xii, 495.) - D. C. E. has
fallen into the popular error of confounding Mary, wife of William de
Braose, who may or may not have been a De Ros, with her daughter Mary,
wife of Ralph de Cobham and Thomas de Brotherton. The inq. post. mort.
of the mother was taken June 15 to 21, 1326, but does not give the date
of her death (19 E. II. 90). That of the daughter states on two
membranes that she died on the 9th, and in two others on the 11th, of
June, 1362 (36 E. III., 2 Nos. 9). That the elder Mary was
"daughter of William de Ros," I know of no evidence beyond somebody's
(Dugdale ?) ipse dixit. If there be evidence, I should be glad to know
it.
HERMENTRUDE. '


================================================


Notes and Queries, Fifth Series, Vol. 2 (Jul-Dec 1874), pp. 30-31

~ Note: there are two separate entries (one by D. C. Elwes,
the second by Felix Laurent). Following the second, there
is the response by D. C. Elwes [the 3rd cite by Linda Jack]


' RALPH DE COBHAM: MARY D ROOS (5th S. i. 208, 294, 397.) - I think it
advisable to take notice of HERMENTRUDE'S communication to "N. & Q." at
the latter reference, otherwise, I fear the pedigree of the Braose
family will become more confused then ever. HERMENTRUDE, in her No. 2
assertion, says that Alina, daughter of her (Mary de Roos's) eldest son,
married in 1294. Now this appears to me to be an entirely incorrect
assertion, for Alina was the daughter of William de Braose, who was the
son of her husband by his first wife, Isabel de Clare, whereas Mary de
Roos was his third wife. Again, in No. 3, her third son, &c.,
"leaving his son." Now this would be, according to HERMENTRUDE,
Richard de Braose, who died in 1294; but if the inquisition taken on
his death is examined it will be found that he died, s.p., and that
his brother, Peter, was found his heir, aged 23, Inq. 24 Ed. I.
No. 38, so that his son Giles is a myth. I believe the following
table of pedigree will be found correct, if I may be allowed to
give it: -

Isabel, da. of = William de Braose = Agnes, da. of = Mary, da. of
Gilbert de I died 1290, Lord I Nicholas de I Wm. de Roos,
Clare, E. of I of Bramber, &c. I Moels, 2nd I 3rd wife, d.
Gloucester, I I wife. I 1325-6,
1st wife. I I I Inq.p.m.
____I I__________ I___________________
I I I I
Aline = William de = Elizabeth Beatrix = Sir Giles = Maud Richard I
d. of I Braose, d. and h. d. and I de I d. of de I
Thos. I d. 1326, of Raymond h. of I Braose, I Eustace Braose, I
de I Lord of de Sully John I d. 1305. I de d. 1294, I
Multon I Bramber, 2nd de St. I I Witney, unmar- I
1st I &c. wife. Elena, I I 2nd ried. I
wife I 1st wife. I I wife. I
I I I I
_____I_____________ _____I ______I____ _______I
I I I I I I I
Alina, m. 1294 Joan, m. Lucy. John Maud. Peter de I
John de Mowbray; James de de Braose. Braose, I
2ndly Richard de Bohun; dau. m. Agnes, I
Penhale; dau. and and co-h. d. 1312 I
co-h. _______I __I
I I
V Margaret,
m. Ralph
de Camois.


I am quite aware that Mary de Roos, the widow of William de Braose,
and Mary de Braose, the widow, first of Ralph de Cobham, secondly of
Thomas de Brotherton, are two perfectly different personages. I believe
myself that the latter Mary must be searched for in quite a different
branch of the family, viz., that one connected with Lincolnshire. As I
am compiling at this moment a pedigree of the Braose family, to insert
in a work that I am preparing for the press, Castles, Mansions, Seats,
&c., of the Western Division of the County of Sussex, any notes
concerning this family are of great interest to me.
D. C. E.
5, The Crescent, Bedford.



Maria, third wife of William, son and heir of John de Braose, and
Margaret Llewelyn, was, probably, a daughter of William le Rus, and not
of William de Ros, as Dugdale states. William le Rus married Agatha,
sole daughter and heiress of Roger de Clre, and his wife Matilda
(Inq. p.m. 34 Hen. III., No. 44). She inherited from her mother a
moiety of the manor of Bromley in Surrey. William le Rus died in
37 Hen. III. (Inq. p.m. No. 49), leaving a daughter Alicia, married
to Richard de Braose, brother-in-law to Maria. He and his wife, in
56 Hen. III> (Blomfeld's Norfolk), gave to William and Maria de Braose
Bromley in exchange for Akenham in Suffolk. Akenham, however, had been
the property of William le Rus, and may have been granted to Maria by
Alicia. The former, at her death, in 19 Ed. II., possessed Bromley,
which passed to her grandson Thomas de Braose, and also Akenham, which
reverted to Alicia's heir. It is reasonable to suppose that Maria was
a daughter of William le Rus, but illegitimate; for at the inquisitions
(34 and 37 Hen. III.) Alicia was found to be sole daughter and heiress.
Some writers of county histories have confounded the above-named
Maria withone of the same name, alleged to have been the second wife
of her third son, William; and they have also said that, after
William's death, she married Ralph de Cobham, and then Thomas
Plantagenet (de Brotherton), half-brother to King Edward II., Earl of
Norfolk, Marshal of England. Records prove that she was the wife of
Ralph, who died in 19 Ed. II., and of Brotherton, who died in 12 Ed.
III.; but they speak of her as a Braose by birth, and not by marriage.
She died in 36 Ed. III. The following are extracts from the Inq. p.m.
(Pt. 2, No. 9): -

" Maria Comitissa Norfolk', uxor Thomas de Brotherton Comitis
Norf', relicta Ra..[ text not visible ]
" Thomas de Brotherton do..[ text not visible ]
secundam uxorem meam.
" Maria tenuit de haeredibus Johannis Cobeham, et Radulfi Cobeham
primi viri ejusdem Comitissae manerium de Ardlington. "

In 35 Ed. III., by a deed dated at Framlingham Castle, John de Cobham
granted for life to his mother (dominum Mariae de Breuse) all the
manors, &c., which he had in Buckingham, and other counties, by
concession and feofment of Ralph de Wedon (Bibl. Cott. Jula. c.
vii. 174). Maria held many of these at her death, and among them
Wedon. To a bond, executed by Maria at Wedon, a seal was attached,
having in the centre a beater-shaped shield (Plantagenet arms), between
three circular shield (Braose arms). (Jula. c. vii. 174.)
Felix Laurent.
Saleby. '


================================================


Notes and Queries, Fifth Series, Vol. 2 (Jul-Dec 1874), pp. 236-237

' RALPH DE COBHAM: MARY DE ROOS (5th S. i. 208, 294, 397; ii. 30). - MR.
LAURENT'S note on this family (p. 30) is a most valuable one; but I am
sorry he should have suggested that Mary, the daughter (as I have no
doubt that she was) of William de Ros, was an illegitimate daughter of
William le Rus. I have strong reasons for thinking otherwise, and that,
merely by a curious coincidence, two brothers married wives, the name of
the one being de Ros, the name of the other le Rus. Some of my reasons
are as follows: -
In Close Roll, 20 Edward II., m. 7, it is stated - "The king has
learned by Inquisition that Mary wife of William de Braose deceased
held lands in Yorkshire of William de Ros of Hamlake. The Escheator
is not to intermeddle with such lands."
Feet of Fines, 56 Henry III., No. 73, is stated to be "Between
Richard de Breouse & Aline his wife and William de B. The former
grant, to the latter & Mary his wife, the manor of Akenham in tail."
This manor, however, in Inquisition on Mary de Braose, 19 Edward II.,
No. 90, is stated to be held of the heirs of Giles de Breuwes (he was
the son of Richard and Alice), and after her death the manor did
descend to his heirs.
I was wrong in my supposition as to the date of this Mary de Braose's
death, which I thought might have taken place in 10 Edward III. as I
find it was 20 Edward ...[ text not visible ].. of William de Ros,..
[text not visible].. am on this subject, ...[text not visible]..
with a query. What proof is there of a William de Braose having
married an Eleanor de Bavent, as stated by nearly all genealogists that
I have had access to; and, if such a marriage did take place, what
proof is there that he was son of William de Braose and Mary de Roos,
and brother to (Richard and Peter and Margaret) de Braose? I cannot
find anything about him, and as to the manner in which Peter de Braose
(stated to be the son of William), and his wife Joan, became possessed
of the manor of Wistoneston, the property of the Bavents, it seems to
have been a grant by the king to Peter and Joan his wife for a fine;
and the manor before that appears to have been granted to the king by
Roger Bavent Fitz, during the latter's lifetime, and not to have
descended by death, as stated by Mr. Lower in the descent of Wiston,
Sussex, Arch. Coll., vol. V. p. 5, who also states that William de
Braose died in 1360. I should be very glad to receive proof of this.
At present I cannot find any mentionof this William, unless the
Inq. p.m. , 35 Edward III., p. 2, 1st Nos., No. 10, on John de Mowbray,
of Axiholm, deceased, alludes to him: - Sussex, "He held in Wassington
2 virgates of land which William de Brewouse [held of him]." If so,
it proves he did not die in 1360. Supposing him to be as stated, it
is curious that his brothers should all die so very long a time before
him, - his eldest half-brother, William, 19 Edward II; his next one,
Sir Giles, 33 Edward I.; his own brother, Richard, 24 Edward I.; and
Peter, 5 Edward II. That there was a William born in this branch I am
aware, from Coram Reg Roll Trinity, 10 Edward II., m. 26, and that he
was born between 10 and 14 Edward I., most probably, but I think he was
dead before Edward III.'s reign.
DUDLEY CARY ELWES.
5, The Crescent, Bedford. '


================================================


Notes and Queries, Fifth Series, Vol. 9 (Jan-Jun 1878), p. 307

' WILLIAM DE ROOS, OF YOLTON. - This person had a grant from Edward I.,
in the thirty-fifth year of his reign, to hold weekly markets and annual
fairs in his manor of Haltwhistle, in the county of Northumberland,
which manor by settlement, on the marriage of his daughter, passed to
the Musgraves. Nicholson and Born suppose that William de Roos, of
Yolton, to be identical with William de Roos, Lord of Kendal, second
son and heir of his mother, Margaret de Brus, wife of Robert de Roos,
Lord of Wark. This could not be, as his father's name was Alexander
(vide Hodgson, ii. 3, 115, and the Yorkshire Visitation, 1575). Was
Alexander a younger son of Robert de Roos, Lord of Hamlake and Wark,
who married Isabella, daughter of William the Lion, and obtained with
her the manor of Haltwhistle?
E. H. A. '


* John P. Ravilious

Gjest

Re: C.P. Correction: Elizabeth le Despenser, wife of Sir Ral

Legg inn av Gjest » 08 jan 2007 23:46:02

Dear Douglas,
As Merilyn keeps pointing out... James Cudworth also
descended from Ralph, Lord Camoys and Elizabeth le DeSpencer via Camoys,
Lewknor, and Machell, Mary Machell having been Captain General James Cudworth`s
mother. like her and Will Jhonson I descend from him, specifically through his
son James Jr`s daughter Abigail, then Tripp, Macomber, Mosher, Row and
Spaulding (in a matrilineal fashion) the last of these married my 2nd Great
grandfather Cummings.

Sincerely,

James W Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA

Gjest

Re: Davenport ancestry of Kate Middleton

Legg inn av Gjest » 09 jan 2007 00:11:01

In a message dated 1/8/07 2:15:56 PM Pacific Standard Time,
starbuck95@hotmail.com writes:

<< Yet_A Genealogical and Heraldic Dictionary of the Landed Gentry of
Great Britain and Ireland_ claims that Henry and Elizabeth (Talbot)
Davenport had only two sons, Henry and Sharington ... >>


The extracted baptisms of Worfield, Shropshire hold this William. They say

William Davenport, born 24 Feb 1679 bap 16 Mar 1679 at Worfield
of Henry Davenport and Elizabeth (no surname listed)

See http://www.familysearch.org - IGI - British Isles - Batch C037581
Parish Register of Worfield

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Davenport ancestry of Kate Middleton

Legg inn av Gjest » 09 jan 2007 00:26:02

In a message dated 1/8/07 2:15:56 PM Pacific Standard Time,
starbuck95@hotmail.com writes:

<< 1272 Henry Davenport, of Hollon, co. Salop, b. ... , d. ... July 1698
m. ... 22 Oct. 1665
1273 Elizabeth Talbot, b. ... , d. ... >>

I have updated here
http://countyhistorian.com/cecilweb/ind ... 8d_1698%29

a list of the children of Henry Davenport and Elizabeth Talbot, as far as I
can determine, from the IGI.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Jadwiga of Poland. "Angevin sickness"?

Legg inn av Gjest » 09 jan 2007 01:06:02

In a message dated 1/8/07 3:49:18 PM Pacific Standard Time, qp10qp@aol.com
writes:

<< the death of Queen Jadwiga and her daughter Bonifacia in 1399 owing to
birth complications): >>

Heraldry of the Royal Families of Europe, Table 90 and Table 133
has a Queen of Poland who died in 1399
but calls her Hedwig
wife of
Wladislaw II (1351? - 1434), Grand Duke of Lithuania 1377-1401, King of
/Poland/ 1386-

After her death in 1399, Wladislaw married Anne of Cilly in 1401, the second
of his four wives.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: C.P. Correction: Elizabeth le Despenser, wife of Sir Ral

Legg inn av Gjest » 09 jan 2007 01:56:02

In a message dated 1/7/07 6:21:12 AM Pacific Standard Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:

<< In 1577 John Michell alienated Honydon to
Oliver Lord St. John, (fn. 131) who in the same year received the other
moiety of the manor, whose history may here be conveniently traced.
Eleanor Lewknor's moiety passed to her son Roger, whose two daughters
each inherited one-fourth of the manor. >>

No mention is made here of Roger Lewknor of West Dean (above) also having a
son Edmund Lewknor d 11 Mar 1543/4 who married Jane Tyrell and had issue. Does
this mean that the Lewknor line is here broken ?
Thanks
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: C.P. Correction: Elizabeth le Despenser, wife of Sir Ral

Legg inn av Gjest » 09 jan 2007 02:01:01

In a message dated 1/7/07 6:21:12 AM Pacific Standard Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:

<< Eleanor Lewknor's moiety passed to her son Roger, whose two daughters
each inherited one-fourth of the manor. Of these daughters one married
Sir Arthur Poole. (fn. 132) Lady Joanna Poole suffered a recovery of
Honydon in 1557, (fn. 133) and her fourth share appears to have passed
to Thomas Foster and others, >>

Likewise here there are questions.
Joan Lewknor is supposed to have married three times
First to Christopher Pickering of Killington by whom at least two children:
Anne who m Francis Weston Governor of Guernsey executed 1536, and Christopher
Pickering whose granddaughter Frances Vaughan (d 1647) was to marry Thomas,
5th Lord Burgh and thus have lots of descendents.

All of this is now suspect by the statement above that Joanna had a "fourth
share" when her share should have been at the most one-third of one-fourth,
sharing with her two older half-siblings.

Will Johnson

taf

Re: Jadwiga of Poland. "Angevin sickness"?

Legg inn av taf » 09 jan 2007 02:01:03

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 1/8/07 3:49:18 PM Pacific Standard Time, qp10qp@aol.com
writes:

the death of Queen Jadwiga and her daughter Bonifacia in 1399 owing to
birth complications):

Heraldry of the Royal Families of Europe, Table 90 and Table 133
has a Queen of Poland who died in 1399
but calls her Hedwig
wife of
Wladislaw II (1351? - 1434), Grand Duke of Lithuania 1377-1401, King of
/Poland/ 1386-

After her death in 1399, Wladislaw married Anne of Cilly in 1401, the second
of his four wives.

In spite of the differences in names, these are the same couple.
Jadwiga = Hedwig, heiress of Poland, married Jagiello, Grand Duke of
Lithuania, who then ruled Poland under the name Wladislaw.

taf

Gjest

Re: Savage/Hitchcock

Legg inn av Gjest » 09 jan 2007 02:21:02

In a message dated 1/7/07 9:05:42 AM Pacific Standard Time,
monica.kanellis@gmail.com writes:

<< Has any headway been made on the Hitchcock descent as given in the
Visitation of Wiltshire of 1623 (pp 93-94)? The source, John Hitchcock,
spouse of Bridget Hungerford, gives his grandmother as Mary Savage, daughter
of Sir John Savage of Rocksavage and Elizabeth Manners. However, if the
pedigree shown is correctly transcribed, the generations seem very tight.
Mary's great-great grandson Thomas (visit. Dorset p14) son of Agnes
Hitchcock and Wm. Bennett was born c1622. >>

I don't see what the chronologic difficulty is. Maybe if you give more
details it wil become clearer.
Thanks
Will Johnson

Peasemarch.

Re: Jadwiga of Poland. "Angevin sickness"?

Legg inn av Peasemarch. » 09 jan 2007 02:23:23

taf wrote:
WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 1/8/07 3:49:18 PM Pacific Standard Time, qp10qp@aol.com
writes:

the death of Queen Jadwiga and her daughter Bonifacia in 1399 owing to
birth complications):

Heraldry of the Royal Families of Europe, Table 90 and Table 133
has a Queen of Poland who died in 1399
but calls her Hedwig
wife of
Wladislaw II (1351? - 1434), Grand Duke of Lithuania 1377-1401, King of
/Poland/ 1386-

After her death in 1399, Wladislaw married Anne of Cilly in 1401, the second
of his four wives.

In spite of the differences in names, these are the same couple.
Jadwiga = Hedwig, heiress of Poland, married Jagiello, Grand Duke of
Lithuania, who then ruled Poland under the name Wladislaw.

taf

That's them. He was called Jogaila in Lithuania; in Poland that became
Jagiello, the Latin version being Jagello, his ruling name in Poland
being Wladyslaw II Jagiello. Jadwiga is often called Hedwig, but her
Polish name is Jadwiga (Hedwig can get confusing because Jadwiga was
made a saint by Pope John Paul, and we already have a St Hedwig).
Anyway... anyone heard of this "Angevin sickness" business?

taf

Re: Jadwiga of Poland. "Angevin sickness"?

Legg inn av taf » 09 jan 2007 03:43:22

Peasemarch. wrote:

That's them. He was called Jogaila in Lithuania; in Poland that became
Jagiello, the Latin version being Jagello, his ruling name in Poland
being Wladyslaw II Jagiello. Jadwiga is often called Hedwig, but her
Polish name is Jadwiga (Hedwig can get confusing because Jadwiga was
made a saint by Pope John Paul, and we already have a St Hedwig).
Anyway... anyone heard of this "Angevin sickness" business?

Never heard of it.


(For anyone interested in nationalistic historical fiction, let me
recommend nobel laureate Henryk Siekiewicz, _Krzyzacy_, fortunately
published in English as _The Teutonic Knights_, which takes place
during the reigns of Jadwiga and Wladyslaw Jagiello.)

taf

Merilyn Pedrick

Re: Cudworth descent

Legg inn av Merilyn Pedrick » 09 jan 2007 05:57:02

And mine is:
Cudworth
Cudworth
Whitcomb
Whitcomb
Whitcomb
White
Marsh
Marsh
Marsh
Marsh
Best wishes
Merilyn Pedrick




-------Original Message-------

From: Rsbow@cs.com
Date: 01/09/07 11:27:23
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Cudworth descent

Here is another Cudworth descent for Douglas Richardson

My wife , Sylvia (Handy) Bowman is a descenddant of James Cudworth
via
Cudworth
Cudworth
Hatch
Tilden
King
Gannett
Littlefield
Handy/Bowman

-------------------------------
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John Higgins

Re: Jadwiga of Poland. "Angevin sickness"?

Legg inn av John Higgins » 09 jan 2007 06:13:34

It's good to see some mention of the works of Henryk Sienkiewicz, definitely
an author of historical fiction worth reading. For a good (but long) read
which is set in later Poland (17th century), check out his monumental
"Trilogy" ("With Fire and Sword", "The Deluge", and "Fire in the Steppe"),
published in English in 1991-2.

----- Original Message -----
From: "taf" <farmerie@interfold.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 6:43 PM
Subject: Re: Jadwiga of Poland. "Angevin sickness"?


Peasemarch. wrote:

That's them. He was called Jogaila in Lithuania; in Poland that became
Jagiello, the Latin version being Jagello, his ruling name in Poland
being Wladyslaw II Jagiello. Jadwiga is often called Hedwig, but her
Polish name is Jadwiga (Hedwig can get confusing because Jadwiga was
made a saint by Pope John Paul, and we already have a St Hedwig).
Anyway... anyone heard of this "Angevin sickness" business?

Never heard of it.


(For anyone interested in nationalistic historical fiction, let me
recommend nobel laureate Henryk Siekiewicz, _Krzyzacy_, fortunately
published in English as _The Teutonic Knights_, which takes place
during the reigns of Jadwiga and Wladyslaw Jagiello.)

taf


-------------------------------
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quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Monica Kanellis

Re: Savage/Hitchcock

Legg inn av Monica Kanellis » 09 jan 2007 17:49:54

Mary Savage is usually shown as being born in 1563 as there is a christening
listed at Frodsham, Cheshire for Nov. 7 of that year for a Marye Savage, no
parents listed though, so I'm not sure how solid the identification is.

Her (first) husband Thomas Hitchcock is given in visitation of Wilts. (p.
93) as "tempore H. 8" which would make him born before Henry's death in
1547, if correct.

If the visitation is correct as it stands the timeline would look something
like this:

Mary Savage (1563??--dies after 1597 - when she is mentioned in her father's
will as Marie Milles, Sir Richard Milles being her 2nd husband)

John Hitchcock=Elizabeth, dau of John Stile of Marleborow

John Hitchcock (died after 1645, date on his will) = Bridget, dau of Edmund
Hungerford of N. Standen

Agnes Hitchcock=William Bennett, son of Thomas Bennett of Pithouse, Wilts.

Thomas Bennett, born before 1623 as he is shown as "fil and haer" in Visit.
Dorsetshire of 1623, p. 14. Thomas' birth is usually given as 1622, though I
can't find it in IGI.


if Mary is born 1563, this gives only 59 years for the 4 generations
averaging out to just under 15 years per generation. Are there precedents
for such a tight timeline in this period? I realize girls married very young
then, I remember reading that Henry VII's mother was only 13 when he was
born.

I would expect the information in the visitation to be substantially correct
(barring transcription errors) given that the John Hitchcock who signed off
on it was speaking of his grandmother who was still alive 26 years earlier
and whose family and connections he could hardly expect to successfully
fabricate.

best,

Monica












On 1/8/07, WJhonson@aol.com <WJhonson@aol.com > wrote:
In a message dated 1/7/07 9:05:42 AM Pacific Standard Time,
monica.kanellis@gmail.com writes:

Has any headway been made on the Hitchcock descent as given in the
Visitation of Wiltshire of 1623 (pp 93-94)? The source, John Hitchcock,
spouse of Bridget Hungerford, gives his grandmother as Mary Savage,
daughter
of Sir John Savage of Rocksavage and Elizabeth Manners. However, if the
pedigree shown is correctly transcribed, the generations seem very tight.
Mary's great-great grandson Thomas (visit. Dorset p14) son of Agnes
Hitchcock and Wm. Bennett was born c1622.

I don't see what the chronologic difficulty is. Maybe if you give more
details it wil become clearer.
Thanks
Will Johnson

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quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hal Bradley

RE: Translation of Latin (admon for Mary Hopkins)

Legg inn av Hal Bradley » 09 jan 2007 19:19:21

Dear Nat,

see below

-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of
Nathaniel Taylor
Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 6:38 PM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Translation of Latin (admon for Mary Hopkins)


In article <1168306491.103741.5940@s34g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
mhollick@mac.com wrote:

The hard part of medieval Latin is the common uses of abbreviations.

"Commissa fuit Admi:' bonorum at Callorum' / Marie Hopkins nuper de
Hursley vid' defunctae/
Roberto Lye vir gard de hursly et/ Thome Syms vir supravisor per
pauper'/ {--} {--} de par[--] duran' minor'/
Constance, Elizebeth et Egidij liberor'/dicti deft'
duodecimo die maij/
Anno Dni' 1613 de bene &c personalir' iur' &c/ salve iure cuiuscumq'
salvaq' potesate &c'"

The words I'm having problems with are Callorum' and gard.
Otherwise I
understand the gist of this document.

Fascinating. This is the administration clause for the
estate of Mary,
first wife of Stephen Hopkins of _Mayflower_. Is this a new
find? Why
was she called a widow?

This is addressed in Caleb Johnson's article on Stephen Hopkins and his
first wife, Mary (TAG 73:161-170). He suggests that the Stephen Hopkins who
went to Virginia (and was shipwrecked enroute) was the same man who later
sailed on the "Mayflower". In Johnson's own words:

"There are several observations to be made about this inventory [of Mary,
wife of Stephen Hopkins]... Most striking, however, is that the estate
inventory calls Mary Hopkins a widow, although her burial record calls her
"wife," not widow. It would have been very unusual for an administration to
have been granted on the estate of a woman whose husband was living... and
Stephen was not dead, as he came on the "Mayflower" in 1620 with his
children Constance and Giles. The solution to this odd puzzle is found in
the facts that Stephen and Mary Hopkins stopped having children in 1608, and
that there was a Stephen Hopkins aboard the "Sea Venture" which left for
Virginia in 1609. If Mary's husband Stephen was in Virginia in 1613 and his
condition was unknown, the court or the parish might well have found it
expedient to assume he was dead in order to make the property available for
his children's support. And that assumption was not an unlikely one:
Mortality rates at Jamestown were extremely high..."

The scenario is a plausible one and would explain why Mary was designated a
"widow".

Hal Bradley

"Callorum'" is not a word fitting here. The formula here is
ordinarily:
"Commissa fuit administratio bonorum iurium et creditorum..." ("the
administration of the goods, debts [is this not a post-medieval
transference of meaning of 'ius' to 'judgments' and hence to
'obligations' or debts generally?] and credits of N has been
commissioned..."

'Gard' for 'guardian I suspect but cannot correct without the
image. Is
it that Robert Lye is appointed guardian, and Thomas Syms
supervisor of
the minor children, who are of course Constance, Elizabeth
and Giles?

I have been working on lots of sixteenth- and early
seventeenth-century
wills & probate documents and can go over this with you
closely offline
if you like.

PS right now I'm typesetting corrections for the third
printing of your
book...

Nat Taylor
http://www.nltaylor.net

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Nathaniel Taylor

Re: Translation of Latin (admon for Mary Hopkins)

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 09 jan 2007 19:36:22

In article <mailman.1165.1168366792.30800.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>,
"Hal Bradley" <hw.bradley@verizon.net> wrote:

"Commissa fuit Admi:' bonorum at Callorum' / Marie Hopkins nuper de
Hursley vid' defunctae ...

Why was she called a widow?

This is addressed in Caleb Johnson's article on Stephen Hopkins and his
first wife, Mary (TAG 73:161-170). He suggests that the Stephen Hopkins who
went to Virginia (and was shipwrecked enroute) was the same man who later
sailed on the "Mayflower". In Johnson's own words:

"There are several observations to be made about this inventory [of Mary,
wife of Stephen Hopkins]... Most striking, however, is that the estate
inventory calls Mary Hopkins a widow, although her burial record calls her
"wife," not widow. It would have been very unusual for an administration to
have been granted on the estate of a woman whose husband was living... and
Stephen was not dead, as he came on the "Mayflower" in 1620 with his
children Constance and Giles. The solution to this odd puzzle is found in
the facts that Stephen and Mary Hopkins stopped having children in 1608, and
that there was a Stephen Hopkins aboard the "Sea Venture" which left for
Virginia in 1609 ...

Hal, thanks. Others pointed this out to me; I have never followed the
lit. on Stephen Hopkins. I am persuaded that this scenario is probably
why Mary was thought a widow. I wonder whether either of the two
administrators/supervisors appointed in the administration quoted by
Martin has a relationship to this Mary; isn't her parentage unknown?

Nat Taylor
http://www.nltaylor.net

Gjest

Re: Savage/Hitchcock

Legg inn av Gjest » 09 jan 2007 21:31:02

In a message dated 1/9/07 8:50:48 AM Pacific Standard Time,
monica.kanellis@gmail.com writes:

<< John Hitchcock (died after 1645, date on his will) = Bridget, dau of
Edmund
Hungerford of N. Standen >>

Is not this Edmund the same person as
Edmund /Hungerford/ of Hungerford, Berkshire d Jan 1599
married Ursula /Ferrers/ d Dec 1598 ?
Thanks
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Savage/Hitchcock

Legg inn av Gjest » 09 jan 2007 21:42:02

In a message dated 1/9/07 8:50:48 AM Pacific Standard Time,
monica.kanellis@gmail.com writes:

<< if Mary is born 1563, this gives only 59 years for the 4 generations
averaging out to just under 15 years per generation. Are there precedents
for such a tight timeline in this period? I realize girls married very young
then, I remember reading that Henry VII's mother was only 13 when he was
born. >>

Given what you're told us so far, I see no reason to make that Mary Savage
chr 1563 at Frodsham the same person as Mary Savage dau of Sir John Savage of
Rocksavage by his wife Elizabeth Manners

Will Johnson

conaught2

Re: Thomas Belson 1500s

Legg inn av conaught2 » 10 jan 2007 15:38:14

Hi Barbara,

You probably have already seen the following website. It mentions a little
about his family.
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~hadland/tvp/tvp10.htm

There is also a book about Blessed Thomas Belson:

Blessed Thomas Belson, His Life and Times 1563-1589,

By Christine Kelly

ISBN: 0861402820
Binding: Hardcover
Date Published: 1988

One of the "Oxford Martyrs," Thomas Belson was hung in 1589
at age 26 because of his unwavering adherence to the Catholic faith. This
narrative provides insights into the courage and devotion of English
Catholics at a time when the practice of their faith was punishable by
death.

I read a review about the Kelly book and it states that it is
full of information so if you are still having difficulty locating
information I would suggest contacting Christine Kelly.

Good luck in your search,
Margaret Kristich

John Brandon

Re: Final proof of the identity of Ezekiel Fogge's mother as

Legg inn av John Brandon » 10 jan 2007 16:44:04

The online database indicates that Susan (Draper) Fogg was the first
cousin of Anne Banks, wife of Edmund Waller, the prominent English
poet.

Thanks for providing some background on the Banks family, Doug. These
Bankeses/ Drapers seems to have had some prominent connections. For
instance, John and Katherine Banks' sister Joan (Banks) Titchborne was
the mother of the well-known Regicide Robert Titchborne ...

http://books.google.com/books?vid=LCCN0 ... #PPA191,M1

Robert Forrest

Re: Thomas Newberry question

Legg inn av Robert Forrest » 10 jan 2007 19:53:40

Brent--According to AR7 (Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists..., F. L. Weiss, 7th Edition), Line 253, your descent omitted one generation of John Newborough, b. c1370, and sandwiched between John c1340 and John 1405.

= = =

I refer you to "The Ancestors and Descendants of Thomas Newberry of Dorchester, Norfolk, Massachusetts".

Author: Bartlett, Joseph Gardner, 1914, which is the source used by Weiss in AR7.

Also, from Hutchins' "Hist. and Antiqs. of Dorset," 3nd Edition 1861-1873, ed. Shipp and Hodson:
Vol. 1, p. 588:
East Orchard, Knoll--
....7R2 [1383-84] William Matheu died seized, inter alia, of 50 acres of land at La Orchard, in Purbeck, held of the Abbot of Tewkesbury, by service of 40s. per annum, value 26/8. John his son and heir, aet. 21 (a). This John proved his age 5 Jul 8R2, having been born and baptized at Winterborne Maureward on the morrow of St. Michael, 25E3 (b) [1381-82]. In an assize at Dorchester...3H4, John Mathew sought to recover against Thomas Jerard, Henry Smedmore, and others, a messuage, 60 acres of land, and 2 acres of meadow in West Orchard and East Orchard, whereupon the said Thomas pleads that a certain John, son of John Smedmore, was seized in fee of the premises, and gave them to John Chaunterel and Margaret his wife, and the heirs of their bodies. On their deaths, without issue, the said Thomas Jerard entered in right of the reversion, which had descended to him as kinsman and heir of the said John, son of John Smedmore. John Mathew, on the other hand, alleges that Edith his mother, whose heir he is, died seized in fee of the said tenement, whereupon he entered as her son and heir, and was so seized till the said Thomas and others disseized him (c).
Thomas Newborough, esq. was seized in fee of 60 acres of land, 100 acres of pasture, 6 acres of meadow, and 100 acres of common of pasture in Orchard, and granted the same to Walter Newburgh and Elizabeth his wife, and the heirs of their bodies (d). 5H8 John Newburgh, esq., son and heir of Thomas Newburgh, late of Berkley, Somerset, granted to Walter Newburgh his brother, all his lands in East Orchard and elsewhere in the county of Dorset, lately the property of Stephen Mathew (e). 12 Aug 9H8 Walter Newburgh, above mentioned, held at his death the premises granted to him by Thomas Newborough, as aforesaid, then held of the Abbot of Tewkesbury; Richard his son and heir, one month old (f)...

Also, from the Will of John Newburgh dated March 20, 1484:
....To my kinsmen Richard Newburgh and Robert Frye and my kinswoman Isabel wife of Stephen Matthewe...
= = =
Here is a descendancy outline, ready for an SGM expert to point out the problems. Sources range from wills and IPMs through 'Domesday Descendants' and 'Complete Peerage' to unsourced Internet foolishness. Caveat Lector!

1 Robert De Newburgh b: Abt. 1085 d: Aft. 1154 of Winfrith Newburgh, Dorset and Chokes, Wollaston, Northamptonshire

2 Henry De Newburgh b: Abt. 1110 d: 1165 to 1166 of Chokes, Wollaston, Northamptonshire

3 Roger De Newburgh b: Abt. 1135 d: Bef. 1200 of Chokes, Wollaston, Northamptonshire

+Matilda De Glastonia b: Abt. 1145

4 Robert De Newburgh b: Abt. 1165 d: 1247

+Matilda b: Abt. 1170

5 Robert De Newburgh b: Abt. 1190 d: 1243

+Lucy b: Abt. 1200

6 Henry De Newburgh b: Abt. 1223 poss. Winfrith Newburgh, Dorset d: 1271 bur. Bindon Abbey, Dorset

+Matilda b: Abt. 1230

7 John De Newburgh b: Abt. 1250 Dorset d: June 25, 1309 bur. Bindon Abbey, Dorset

+Margery b: Abt. 1260

8 Robert De Newburgh b: Abt. 1280 d: 1338

+Margaret b: Abt. 1290

9 Thomas De Newburgh b: Abt. 1315

+Hawisa b: Abt. 1325

10 John Newburgh b: Abt. 1340 of Lulworth, Dorset d: June 4, 1381 Bindon Abbey, Dorset

+Margaret Poyntz b: Abt. 1350

11 John Newburgh b: Abt. 1370 d: Aft. February 1438/39 of Dorset

+Joan Delamere b: Abt. 1380 of Dorset

12 John Newburgh b: 1405 d: April 1, 1484 of Lullworth, Dorset; bur. Bindon Abbey

+Edith Attemore b: Abt. 1405 of Glanvilles Wooton, Dorset d: Bef. 1436

*2nd Wife of John Newburgh:

+Alice Carent b: Abt. 1400 of Berkley, Somerset d: of Warmwell, Dorset

13 Isabel Newburgh b: 1435 to 1460

+Mr. Strope(Strode) b: 1420 to 1455

13 Joan Newburgh b: 1435 to 1460

+Mr. Ligh b: 1420 to 1455

14 John Ligh b: 1450 to 1484

13 Anastasia Newburgh b: 1435 to 1460

+John Frampton b: 1420 to 1455 d: of Moreton

13 Sir William Newburgh b: 1435 d: May 4, 1471 Battle of Tewksbury, Worcestershire

+Christine Gouvis? b: Abt. 1445 d: December 9, 1491

14 John Newburgh, Senior b: Abt. 1461 d: October 11, 1484 to 1485

+Joan b: Abt. 1465 d: October 12, 1484

14 Roger Newburgh b: 1460 to 1463 d: September 27, 1515 bur. Bury St. Edmonds Abbey, Suffolk

+Elizabeth Wadham b: Abt. 1470 d: Aft. March 20, 1500/01

15 Christian Newburgh b: 1494 d: August 7, 1517 of East Lulworth, Dorset

+Sir John Marney b: Abt. 1490

14 William Newburgh b: Abt. 1465

14 John Newburgh, The Younger b: Abt. 1468

13 Thomas Newburgh b: 1445 of Berkley (Barkeley), Somerset d: March 15, 1512/13 of Marnhull, Dorset

+Heiress Of Barkeley Alice b: Abt. 1455 d: 1525

14 John Newburgh b: 1484 to 1485 d: Aft. 1513 of Berkley, Somerset

+Edith b: Abt. 1490

15 John Newburgh b: 1509 to 1510 d: March 18, 1554/55 of Berkeley, Somerset

16 Roger Newburgh b: February 1, 1533/34 d: 1591 of Berkeley, Somerset

+Magdalen Turberville b: Abt. 1540 of Bere Regis, Somerset

14 Rachel? Newburgh b: 1485 to 1495 of Berkley, Somerset

+Richard Rich b: Abt. 1480 d: of Weld, or Burntwood, Essex

14 Jane? Newburgh b: 1485 to 1495

14 Walter Newburgh b: Abt. 1487 d: August 12, 1517 of Netherbury, Dorset

+Elizabeth Birport(Bridport?) b: Abt. 1495 of Hurlands, Netherbury; and/or Holme; and/or Westholme, Dorset d: 1570 to 1571

15 Susan? Newburgh b: Abt. 1515

15 Anne? Newburgh b: Abt. 1515

15 Dorothy? Newburgh b: Abt. 1515

15 Richard Newburgh b: Abt. July 1517 poss. Dorset, of Othe Fraunces d: Abt. January 1568/69 of Worth Francis, Netherbury, Dorset

+Elizabeth Horsey b: Abt. 1530 of Binghams, Dorset d: Aft. 1568

16 Elizabeth Newberry b: Abt. 1553

16 Walter Newberry b: Abt. 1555 d: February 1598/99 of East Orchard, Dorset

+Elizabeth Culliford b: Abt. 1560 d: Abt. September 1618

16 Richard Newberry b: Abt. 1557 poss. Othe Frauncis, Dorset; of Netherbury, Dorset d: Abt. 1629 Yarcombe, Devonshire

+Grace Matthew b: November 1558 Yarcombe, Devonshire d: December 1632 Yarcombe, Devonshire

16 Katherine Newberry b: Abt. 1559

16 William Newberry b: Abt. 1561 Netherbury, Dorset d: October 1632 Frampton, Dorset

14 Roger Newburgh b: Abt. 1489

14 Christopher Newburgh b: 1490 to 1495

14 Thomas Newburgh b: 1490 to 1495

13 John Newburgh b: 1440 d: 1497 of Turner's Puddle, Dorset

+Isabel b: Abt. 1445

13 Margaret Newburgh b: 1445 to 1460 of Lullworth, Dorset d: 1486 to 1489

+Henry Long b: 1420 to 1455 d: October 20, 1490 of Wraxall, Wiltshire

12 Alice Newburgh b: Abt. 1400

+John FitzJames b: Abt. 1400 d: 1476 of Redlynch

13 John FitzJames b: Abt. 1430 d: November to December 1510

+Isabel b: Abt. 1440

12 Edith Newburgh b: Abt. 1400

5 Margery De Newburgh b: Abt. 1190

+William Belet b: Abt. 1180

=============================

Bob Forrest

conaught2

Re: Dowdall's of Kilfinny and Monkstown

Legg inn av conaught2 » 10 jan 2007 22:10:52

Hi John,

I found some more information regarding our discussion about the Dowdalls of
Kilfinny. The Elizabeth you refer to as wife to Sir John Dowdall appears to
be the daughter-in-law of Captain (Sir) John Dowdall who died abt 1606 in
Pilltown, County Waterford and the wife of Sir John Dowdall who died before
1641. I will refer to the senior John Dowdall as Captain. Captain John
Dowdall was born in 1545 in Shirwell, Devonshire, England. In Harold
Dowdle's excellent work Robert Dowdle Senior and his Descendents, 1990, he
has documentation of Captain Dowdall's wife's name as Margaret.
Page 7 - Captain Dowdall apparently married in Devon, for he held land there
in "right of his wife Margaret." Taken from Court Rolls of the Manor of
Waddeton, Devon Record Office, Exeter, Devon, England, Translation
009.21,p.12.
In Captain John Dowdall's will one of the executors was John Woode,either
the brother or father of Margaret. In Captain John Dowdall's will he states
his wife's name as Lady Margaret. His eldest son was John who was also
knighted in March 1618.

To verify that Elizabeth was the name of Sir John Dowdall (the son) listed
below is some interesting information.

Taken from Samuel Lewis' A Topigraphical Dictionary of Ireland regarding
Kilfinny, County Limerick:

"At the foot of a hill are the remains of Kilfenny Castle, built by Cormac
Mac Einery in the reign of John; it afterwards belonged to the Kildare
family, by whom it was forfeited in the reign of Elizabeth. It was besieged
by the Irish under Col. Purcell, in 1641, and resolutely defended by the
widow of Sir John Dowdall for some time, but ultimately surrendered.



The following is taken from an article about Women's Lives in the British
Civil Wars:

Lady Elizabeth Dowdall
Two months after the outbreak of the Irish rebellion in 1641, she raised and
commanded a force of eighty men, for the defence of the castle. Otherwise an
obscure figure.

http://www.earlymodernweb.org.uk/warliv ... aphies.htm



The English Civil Wars, A Soldier's Life chapter on Women:



.." In 1641 during the Irish Rebellion Lady Elizabeth Dowdall raised a
company of soldiers in Munster. She seized the rebels' horses when they
attacked and hanged ten men.When

surrounded by the rebels she sent out soldiers with grenades to set fire to
the enemy quarters and burn the rebels alive.





Lady Elizabeth Dowdall was the daughter of Sir John Dowdall, a wealthy
landowner in County Limerick Ireland. In 1629, she married Sir Hardress
Waller, one of the regicides of Charles 1st. In 1641, during the Irish
Rebellion, Lady Elizabeth successfully defended Kilfinny Castle against the
rebels. Taken from Opentopia Encyclopedia -
http://encycl.opentopia.com/L/LA/LAD



From Answers.com

In 1641, during the Irish Rebellion Elizabeth successfully defended
Kilfinny Castle against the rebels, and is reputed to have hung several of
them during the fighting. She died in 1658. One of her daughters was
Elizabeth Waller, Baroness Shelburne, the wife of the economist
Sir William Petty.


In John Bellew A 17th Century Man of Many Parts 1605-1679, the reknown
Irish Historian Harold O'Sullivan has information about the second daughter
of Sir John Dowdall who married Sir Hardress Waller of England in 1629.
Waller acquired thousands of acres of land in County Limerick "on foot of
the marriage settlement".

Margaret Kristich

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Higgins" <jthiggins@sbcglobal.net>
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 1:12 PM
Subject: Re: Dowdall's of Kilfinny and Monkstown [was: English
handwriting1500-1700]


This is an interesting addition to the knowledge base on the confusing
Dowdall family.

Can it be confirmed that the Capt. John Dowdall who was commander of
Youghall in 1569 or 1580 was in fact the John Dowdall mentioned in the
previous note who was mar. to Elizabeth Southwell of Polylong? If this is
the case, a pedigree (of admittedly dubious reliability) in a very early
edition of Burke's Landed Gentry says that this couple had "several
daughters but no son". Honora the wife of Laurence Dowdall of Mounttown
is
mentioned as the youngest daughter, while the second daughter is said to
be
Elizabeth, wife of Sir Hardress Waller the regicide. The BLG pedigree
also
mentions the eldest daughter Anne, said to be mar., not to Lt. Col.
William
Pigott, but to "her relative John Southwell of Rathkeale". Sir John
Dowdall, the father of this particular Anne was apparently alive in 1623,
when he made a settlement of property to Anne and her husband. You
mention
that Honora was a co-heir of Sir John Dowdall - is anything said about the
other co-heirs?

The early BLG pedigree doesn't distinguish very carefully between the
Dowdalls of Kilfinny and those of Mounttown and other localities, so it's
not to be relied upon as a sole source, but it is interesting....

With respect to the Southwells of Polylong, Sir Thomas is mentioned in
Dashwood's 1878 edition (with extensions) of the 1563 Visitation of
Norfolk.
He is said to have mar. Anne, dau. of Sir Thomas Harris of Cornworthy,
Devon, and d. 12 June 1626, leaving two daughters [unnamed] as co-heirs.
The Devon connection here is interesting given Margaret's new notes on the
Devonshire connection of Capt. John Dowdall.

----- Original Message -----
From: "conaught2" <conaught2@charter.net
To: "Merilyn Pedrick" <pedricks@ozemail.com.au>;
gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 12:20 AM
Subject: Re: English handwriting 1500-1700 Dowdall's of Kilfinny and
Monkstown


Hi Merilyn,

It is interesting you should ask about the Kilfinny Dowdalls. I recently
returned from a five week research trip to Ireland and still have not
sorted
through all the material I gathered. I always assumed the Kilfinny
Dowdalls
were a branch off the County Louth Dowdalls, but recently I found that the
Sir John Dowdall referred to in Kilfinny was not the same Dowdall family
as
the County Louth Dowdall family. Sir John Dowdall has been cropping up in
my research for years.

Sir John Dowdall of Kilfinny is the same Captain John Dowdall who served
in Elizabeth's army in Ireland. He was from England and had no connection
to the County Louth, Meath, Westmeath or Dublin Dowdalls. ( I imagine
there
was a connection before the Normans invaded Ireland but that is not my
area
of interest

. Captain John Dowdall was commander of Youghal, County Cork, in 1569
(possibly 1580)
He was was not related to the County Louth, Meath or Westmeath Dowdalls.
Captain Dowdall was from Shirwell Parish, Devon, England. Sir Arthur
Chichester was from Shirwell Parish and one of his principal tenants was
John and Johanne Dowdall. It appears their son James went to Ireland and
settled in the town of Dungannon, County Tyrone. Captain John Dowdall was
probably the youngest son and joined Elizabeth's army and served 30 years
in
Ireland. (Seanchas Ard Mhacha, 2004 Edition, Kristich, Margaret, James
Dowdall of Drogheda An Irish Martyr - source was - (Dowdle, M.A., PhD.,
Harold L., Robert Dowdle, Sr., and his Descendants, Stevenson's Genealogy
Center, 230 West 1230 North, Provo, Utah, 1990 ).



Captain John Dowdall was knighted by Queen Elizabeth. He led her forces
in the Battle of Enniskillen and was commander of Dungannon Fort.



Hayes Manuscript, National Library of Ireland -



"Dowdall (Sir John)

London: Tract on the sate of Ireland, addressed to James I, by Sir John
Dowdall (of Kilfinny), eing an autorgraph copy of twhat he wrote in March
1600 for Queen Elizabeth when he was commander of Duncannon Fort, early
tempore James I

n.1714 p. 1456"



There are several listings for Sir John (Captain) Dowdall in the Hayes
Manuscript.



I don't have any information about Anne Dowdall but for Sir John
(Captain)
his co-heir was Honora who d. 2nd Oct, 1638 and was buried in Monkstown,
County Meath. She was married to Lawrence Dowdall of Monkstown, who was
Registrar of Chancery. It is an interesting turn of events to find that
Captain John Dowdall's daughter married into the Louth/Meath Dowdalls.



The information regarding Honora Dowdall and the Monkstown Dowdalls is
taken from Irish Pedigrees p. 182 as well as the Dowdall Pedigrees Irish
National Library Manuscript Dept. MS 177 p. 109. Honora is also mentioned
in the will of Edward Dowdall of Monkstown found in Betham's Abstracts of
Perog. Wills. I haven't been able to dicipher all the words in the will.



According to your information Anne and Honora would be sisters. Hope this
is of some help.

BRENT DURKEN

Re: Thomas Newberry question

Legg inn av BRENT DURKEN » 11 jan 2007 14:42:02

Thank you very much for info and pointing out the missing generation. It is all very interesting and also more confusing. What exactly is meant by the term "kinswoman"? Possibly a niece or cousin? I don¢t think that Isabel Newburgh would have been a sister of the John Newburgh that died in 1484 because she was the grandmother of the Grace Matthew. This Grace Matthew married Richard Newburgh the GGgrandson of John Newburgh that died in 1484. That would be a 2 generation difference.

The will you sent states the following:

Will of John Newburgh dated March 20, 1484:
...To my kinsmen Richard Newburgh and Robert Frye and my kinswoman Isabel wife of Stephen Matthewe

This lines up with the following:

"Richard Newburgh -- Born about 1557. Died about 1629. He married his kinswoman, Grace Matthew, 15 Jan. 1580, Yarcombe, Devon, dau. of John Matthew, and grandau. of Stephen and Isabel (Newburgh) Matthew." She was buried, 18 Dec. 1632, Yarcombe, Devon.

I found this on http://www.familyorigins.com/users/f/i/ ... 8.htm#P474 using
Burton Spear, The search for the passengers of the Mary & John 1630*, v 17, 1992, p 106 as a source.

Thanks again for your help, Brent.

BRENT DURKEN

Re: Thomas Newberry question

Legg inn av BRENT DURKEN » 11 jan 2007 14:43:02

Thank you very much for info and pointing out the missing generation. It is all very interesting and also more confusing. What exactly is meant by the term "kinswoman"? Possibly a niece or cousin? I don¢t think that Isabel Newburgh would have been a sister of the John Newburgh that died in 1484 because she was the grandmother of the Grace Matthew. This Grace Matthew married Richard Newburgh the GGgrandson of John Newburgh that died in 1484. That would be a 2 generation difference.

The will you sent states the following:

Will of John Newburgh dated March 20, 1484:
...To my kinsmen Richard Newburgh and Robert Frye and my kinswoman Isabel wife of Stephen Matthewe

This lines up with the following:

"Richard Newburgh -- Born about 1557. Died about 1629. He married his kinswoman, Grace Matthew, 15 Jan. 1580, Yarcombe, Devon, dau. of John Matthew, and grandau. of Stephen and Isabel (Newburgh) Matthew." She was buried, 18 Dec. 1632, Yarcombe, Devon.

I found this on http://www.familyorigins.com/users/f/i/ ... 8.htm#P474 using
Burton Spear, The search for the passengers of the Mary & John 1630*, v 17, 1992, p 106 as a source.

Thanks again for your help, Brent.

Gjest

Re: Sir Eudes la Zouche of Harringworth: Was he a son of Ell

Legg inn av Gjest » 11 jan 2007 20:31:23

Dear Douglas and All,

I am uncertain that we can positively conclude the parentage of Eudes. Are we dealing with one or two Eudes? Certainly, there is sufficient support for a Eudes born earlier than the children of Alan and Elena de Quincy la Zouche.

Eudo la Zouche ?the elder?, brother of Alan must have been born between 1210 and 1230.
In 1251 crown pleas Richard Kyngesfeld was attached by Ivor la Suche and William la Suzche.
1253 (July 25) Grant to Eudo la Zuche of the marriage of Agatha, daughter of William de Feariis, earl of Derby, if the earl will consent, with the whole profit and all other things which could fall to the king of the said marriage; so that he render for this grant 150 marks. And if she marry another, grant to him of the forfeiture belonging to the king; and if he have neither the marriage not its value, he shall be quit of the said sum
1255 (July 24.) Mandate to Agnes de Vescy to deliver Agatha de Ferariis, her sister, who was committed to her keeping by the queen and R. earl of Cornwall when the king was in Gascony, and who holds of the king in chief, and whose marriage the King granted to Eudo la Zuche, to Hugh son of Ralph de Mortuo Mari, to whom the said Hugh has transferred it
By 1255 Milicent Cantilupo (her brother George b. 1251) was married to John de Monte Alto since in Eaton Bray ?all the rents of 19 hides were assigned to Sir William de Cantilupo to John de Montealto, with his daughter??on the death of her father, William. In the Visitation of Cheshire, John de Montealto is to have married Elena, relic of Robert Stockport before he married Milicent. However, this seems incorrect since there exists a deed from John de Monte Alto and Elena de Stokep?t in 1287, long after it is assumed Milicent married the ?younger? Eudes la Zouche.
In 1265 Eudo la Zouche with Sir William la Zouche, chaplain are among those rewarded after the Battle of Evesham.

Although you have found the mention of Qincey property in the dower, I do not find the lands of Elena in the line of Eudo but rather, easily followed, in the lines of Alan and Oliver. Unfortunately, I do not have the property you cited on soc. med. Since we have, to date, no IPM for either an elder or younger Eudo, we must examine the Harryngsworth line to find the de Quincey land.

The following is abstracted from the 1353 IPM of
William la Zouche or de la Zouche of Haryngsworth. His properties included:
Salop Mulbracy: ...( Bosco)
Bolewyk Docking.
Wilts. Calne, Calston.
Bedford. Eyton and Houghton Regis. Eyton:--(Cantilupe)
Buckingham. Edelesburgh. Mentmore
Warwick. Weston. The manor with its members, Folkeshull and Wolfareshull...
Thorpe Ernald. Busseby, Therneby and Brenteby...( Bosco)
Rutland. Kylpsham. The manor.... castle of Okham,
Lincoln. Northwythme. North Steynton. Witheal and Kynthorp. Houghton by Grimsby. Saltleteby and Somercotes.
Northhampton. Haryngsworth and Fayrhull. Bolewyk and Rothewell. Bolewyk
Berughby. Braunfeld and Little Houyghton. (Cantilupe)
Worcester. Neubury.

Most appear to be from the Cantilupe inheritance or the de Bosco transactions. Is the dower land mentioned here? ?Master William de Bosco, tenant in chief, to enfeoff Millicent de Monte Alto, tenant in chief, of a moiety of the manors of Thorp Ernaud, co. Leicester, Weston, co. Warwick, Braunfeld and Hoghton, co. Northampton, Ebrighton and Farncote co Gloucester, Tubbeneye and Stanelak co. Oxford, and Esyngton co. Suffolk?..her manors of Haringeworth, Bolewyk and Rothwell co. Northampton, Klipesham co. Rutland, Hoghton co. Bedford, Crendon co Buckingham, Heygrave and Bruggewautre co. Somerset and Menlesbracy co Salop to hold until she shall have granted the said moiety to the said William de Bosco, William la Zusche and Matilda..?Also,

Elena de Quincey?s Scottish holdings went to her sons, Oliver and Alan with no mention of Eudes.

I?ll continue to work on the property.

Pat

From: "Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com
Date: 2007/01/10 Wed AM 03:03:11 EST
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Sir Eudes la Zouche of Harringworth: Was he a son of Ellen de Quincy?

Dear Newsgroup ~

Some time ago, there was a lively discussion on the
soc.genealogy.medieval newsgroup regarding the parentage of Sir Eudes
la Zouche (died 1279), of Harringworth, Northamptonshire, husband of
Milicent de Cantelowe. Sir Eudes has traditionally been identified in
print as the brother of Sir Alan la Zouche (died 1270), of Ashby de la
Zouch, Leicestershire. However, I recently posted evidence which
suggested that Sir Eudes might actually be the son, not brother, of Sir
Alan la Zouche (died 1270). The evidence consisted of a lawsuit which
showed that Sir Eudes la Zouche's widow, Milicent, claimed dower in
property which clearly had been inherited by Sir Alan la Zouche's wife,
Ellen de Quincy. Presumably this property passed by gift of Ellen de
Quincy to Sir Eudes la Zouche. Such a gift would be easily explained
if Sir Eudes was the son of Ellen de Quincy.

At the time, I stated that I believed there was a record in print which
detailed Ellen de Quincy's exact inheritance. This record shows all of
the manors which Ellen de Quincy inherited from her father, Sir Roger
de Quincy, Earl of Winchester. If it could be proven that other lands
of Ellen de Quincy's inheritance passed to Sir Eudes la Zouche or his
heirs, then I think a good case could be made that Sir Eudes was
Ellen's son, rather than her brother-in-law. It is known, for example,
that Ellen de Quincy settled various manors of her inheritance on her
known younger son, Sir Oliver la Zouche.

Since the original discussion, I've determined that the published
account of the partition of the estates of Sir Roger de Quincy, Earl of
Winchester, is found in the following source:

Report on the MSS of Reginald Rawdon Hastings, Esq. 1 (Hist. MSS Comm.
78) (1928): 323-342.

It will probably take a good deal of detective work to determine what
became of all of Ellen de Quincy's inheritance. However, for those
interested in solving this interesting medieval problem, this partition
record would be the place to start digging.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah


-------------------------------
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Douglas Richardson

Re: Sir Eudes la Zouche of Harringworth: Was he a son of Ell

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 11 jan 2007 21:04:16

Dear Patricia ~

I think if it can be shown that Ellen de Quincy settled part of her
inheritance on Sir Eudes la Zouche, of Harringworth, I think it would
be highly likely that he was her son. The fact that Ellen de Quincy
also had a brother-in-law named Eudes la Zouche does not prevent her
from having a son of the same name. In fact, the repeated occurence of
given names in families is the bane of medieval history and genealogy.
It is sometimes virtually impossible to distinguish father and son,
uncle and nephew from one another because they bear the same given
names.

At this point, other than the property Eudes la Zouche appears to have
obtained from Ellen de Quincy, I'm unaware of what other lands he held
in his own right. In the meantime, thank you for posting a listing of
properties named in the 1353 IPM of William la Zouche of Harringworth.
That's a good start.

However, this problem may be more far difficult to solve than it
appears on the surface. We have no inquisition for Eudes la Zouche
himself. I've suspected for some time that Eudes' son and heir was not
his son, William, by his known marriage to Milicent de Cantelowe, but
rather another son by an earlier unknown marriage. If so, then any
property Eudes had in his own right or by gift of his mother would have
gone to his son or heir by his first wife, and not to William and his
heirs. And, if that line died out, then Eudes' properties would have
escheated to the crown. William would have been unable to inherit if
he was an heir of the half-blood.

Having said that, if we can locate the Quincy properties in
Leicestershire, then we can check them in Farnham's work on
Leicestershire to see if Eudes la Zouche's widow, Milicent de
Cantelowe, claimed dower in any of these estates. Maybe we'll get
lucky. Cross your fingers.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

John Higgins

Re: Dowdall's of Kilfinny and Monkstown

Legg inn av John Higgins » 12 jan 2007 18:16:28

Thanks for this further information on the Dowdalls, which clears up
confusion regarding the two Sir Johns.

If I understand it correctly, the elder Sir John Dowdall (d. ca. 1606) came
from Shirwell, Devon, and had a wife named Margaret. Their son Sir John was
married to Elizabeth Southwell of Polylong. This latter couple had several
daughters including Elizabeth who mar. Sir Hardress Waller, the regicide.
Taking the line a bit further, their daughter Bridget Waller mar. Henry
Cadogan of Liscartan, Co. Meath, from which marriage comes the family of the
present Earls Cadogan and thus connections to many other peerage families -
and eventually Princess Diana.

----- Original Message -----
From: "conaught2" <conaught2@charter.net>
To: "John Higgins" <jthiggins@sbcglobal.net>; <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 1:10 PM
Subject: Re: Dowdall's of Kilfinny and Monkstown


Hi John,

I found some more information regarding our discussion about the Dowdalls
of
Kilfinny. The Elizabeth you refer to as wife to Sir John Dowdall appears
to
be the daughter-in-law of Captain (Sir) John Dowdall who died abt 1606 in
Pilltown, County Waterford and the wife of Sir John Dowdall who died
before
1641. I will refer to the senior John Dowdall as Captain. Captain John
Dowdall was born in 1545 in Shirwell, Devonshire, England. In Harold
Dowdle's excellent work Robert Dowdle Senior and his Descendents, 1990, he
has documentation of Captain Dowdall's wife's name as Margaret.
Page 7 - Captain Dowdall apparently married in Devon, for he held land
there
in "right of his wife Margaret." Taken from Court Rolls of the Manor of
Waddeton, Devon Record Office, Exeter, Devon, England, Translation
009.21,p.12.
In Captain John Dowdall's will one of the executors was John Woode,either
the brother or father of Margaret. In Captain John Dowdall's will he
states
his wife's name as Lady Margaret. His eldest son was John who was also
knighted in March 1618.

To verify that Elizabeth was the name of Sir John Dowdall (the son)
listed
below is some interesting information.

Taken from Samuel Lewis' A Topigraphical Dictionary of Ireland regarding
Kilfinny, County Limerick:

"At the foot of a hill are the remains of Kilfenny Castle, built by Cormac
Mac Einery in the reign of John; it afterwards belonged to the Kildare
family, by whom it was forfeited in the reign of Elizabeth. It was
besieged
by the Irish under Col. Purcell, in 1641, and resolutely defended by the
widow of Sir John Dowdall for some time, but ultimately surrendered.



The following is taken from an article about Women's Lives in the British
Civil Wars:

Lady Elizabeth Dowdall
Two months after the outbreak of the Irish rebellion in 1641, she raised
and
commanded a force of eighty men, for the defence of the castle. Otherwise
an
obscure figure.

http://www.earlymodernweb.org.uk/warliv ... aphies.htm



The English Civil Wars, A Soldier's Life chapter on Women:



." In 1641 during the Irish Rebellion Lady Elizabeth Dowdall raised a
company of soldiers in Munster. She seized the rebels' horses when they
attacked and hanged ten men.When

surrounded by the rebels she sent out soldiers with grenades to set fire
to
the enemy quarters and burn the rebels alive.





Lady Elizabeth Dowdall was the daughter of Sir John Dowdall, a wealthy
landowner in County Limerick Ireland. In 1629, she married Sir Hardress
Waller, one of the regicides of Charles 1st. In 1641, during the Irish
Rebellion, Lady Elizabeth successfully defended Kilfinny Castle against
the
rebels. Taken from Opentopia Encyclopedia -
http://encycl.opentopia.com/L/LA/LAD



From Answers.com

In 1641, during the Irish Rebellion Elizabeth successfully defended
Kilfinny Castle against the rebels, and is reputed to have hung several of
them during the fighting. She died in 1658. One of her daughters was
Elizabeth Waller, Baroness Shelburne, the wife of the economist
Sir William Petty.


In John Bellew A 17th Century Man of Many Parts 1605-1679, the reknown
Irish Historian Harold O'Sullivan has information about the second
daughter
of Sir John Dowdall who married Sir Hardress Waller of England in 1629.
Waller acquired thousands of acres of land in County Limerick "on foot of
the marriage settlement".

Margaret Kristich

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Higgins" <jthiggins@sbcglobal.net
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 1:12 PM
Subject: Re: Dowdall's of Kilfinny and Monkstown [was: English
handwriting1500-1700]


This is an interesting addition to the knowledge base on the confusing
Dowdall family.

Can it be confirmed that the Capt. John Dowdall who was commander of
Youghall in 1569 or 1580 was in fact the John Dowdall mentioned in the
previous note who was mar. to Elizabeth Southwell of Polylong? If this
is
the case, a pedigree (of admittedly dubious reliability) in a very early
edition of Burke's Landed Gentry says that this couple had "several
daughters but no son". Honora the wife of Laurence Dowdall of Mounttown
is
mentioned as the youngest daughter, while the second daughter is said to
be
Elizabeth, wife of Sir Hardress Waller the regicide. The BLG pedigree
also
mentions the eldest daughter Anne, said to be mar., not to Lt. Col.
William
Pigott, but to "her relative John Southwell of Rathkeale". Sir John
Dowdall, the father of this particular Anne was apparently alive in
1623,
when he made a settlement of property to Anne and her husband. You
mention
that Honora was a co-heir of Sir John Dowdall - is anything said about
the
other co-heirs?

The early BLG pedigree doesn't distinguish very carefully between the
Dowdalls of Kilfinny and those of Mounttown and other localities, so
it's
not to be relied upon as a sole source, but it is interesting....

With respect to the Southwells of Polylong, Sir Thomas is mentioned in
Dashwood's 1878 edition (with extensions) of the 1563 Visitation of
Norfolk.
He is said to have mar. Anne, dau. of Sir Thomas Harris of Cornworthy,
Devon, and d. 12 June 1626, leaving two daughters [unnamed] as co-heirs.
The Devon connection here is interesting given Margaret's new notes on
the
Devonshire connection of Capt. John Dowdall.

----- Original Message -----
From: "conaught2" <conaught2@charter.net
To: "Merilyn Pedrick" <pedricks@ozemail.com.au>;
gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 12:20 AM
Subject: Re: English handwriting 1500-1700 Dowdall's of Kilfinny and
Monkstown


Hi Merilyn,

It is interesting you should ask about the Kilfinny Dowdalls. I
recently
returned from a five week research trip to Ireland and still have not
sorted
through all the material I gathered. I always assumed the Kilfinny
Dowdalls
were a branch off the County Louth Dowdalls, but recently I found that
the
Sir John Dowdall referred to in Kilfinny was not the same Dowdall family
as
the County Louth Dowdall family. Sir John Dowdall has been cropping up
in
my research for years.

Sir John Dowdall of Kilfinny is the same Captain John Dowdall who
served
in Elizabeth's army in Ireland. He was from England and had no
connection
to the County Louth, Meath, Westmeath or Dublin Dowdalls. ( I imagine
there
was a connection before the Normans invaded Ireland but that is not my
area
of interest

. Captain John Dowdall was commander of Youghal, County Cork, in 1569
(possibly 1580)
He was was not related to the County Louth, Meath or Westmeath
Dowdalls.
Captain Dowdall was from Shirwell Parish, Devon, England. Sir Arthur
Chichester was from Shirwell Parish and one of his principal tenants was
John and Johanne Dowdall. It appears their son James went to Ireland
and
settled in the town of Dungannon, County Tyrone. Captain John Dowdall
was
probably the youngest son and joined Elizabeth's army and served 30
years
in
Ireland. (Seanchas Ard Mhacha, 2004 Edition, Kristich, Margaret, James
Dowdall of Drogheda An Irish Martyr - source was - (Dowdle, M.A., PhD.,
Harold L., Robert Dowdle, Sr., and his Descendants, Stevenson's
Genealogy
Center, 230 West 1230 North, Provo, Utah, 1990 ).



Captain John Dowdall was knighted by Queen Elizabeth. He led her
forces
in the Battle of Enniskillen and was commander of Dungannon Fort.



Hayes Manuscript, National Library of Ireland -



"Dowdall (Sir John)

London: Tract on the sate of Ireland, addressed to James I, by Sir
John
Dowdall (of Kilfinny), eing an autorgraph copy of twhat he wrote in
March
1600 for Queen Elizabeth when he was commander of Duncannon Fort, early
tempore James I

n.1714 p. 1456"



There are several listings for Sir John (Captain) Dowdall in the Hayes
Manuscript.



I don't have any information about Anne Dowdall but for Sir John
(Captain)
his co-heir was Honora who d. 2nd Oct, 1638 and was buried in Monkstown,
County Meath. She was married to Lawrence Dowdall of Monkstown, who was
Registrar of Chancery. It is an interesting turn of events to find that
Captain John Dowdall's daughter married into the Louth/Meath Dowdalls.



The information regarding Honora Dowdall and the Monkstown Dowdalls is
taken from Irish Pedigrees p. 182 as well as the Dowdall Pedigrees
Irish
National Library Manuscript Dept. MS 177 p. 109. Honora is also
mentioned
in the will of Edward Dowdall of Monkstown found in Betham's Abstracts
of
Perog. Wills. I haven't been able to dicipher all the words in the will.



According to your information Anne and Honora would be sisters. Hope
this
is of some help.


Robert Forrest

Re: Dreux of Mantes, "de prosapia Caroli Magni"

Legg inn av Robert Forrest » 12 jan 2007 18:35:45

I have this in my notes on Ralph de Gouy, from Sir Anthony Wagner's "English Genealogy," 1972, on p. 37:

"...There are three theories of the ancestry of Ralph de Gouy. Chaume (4) believed he was son of Walter, Count of Laon, whose ancestry he takes back to the same Warin (d. 677) from whom he deduced the Capetians and Plantagenets. Mr. Philiip Grierson (5) argues against this and suggests that the father of Ralph de Gouy was Hucbold, Count of Ostrevant (d. after 895). If so, Heiliwich would be the daughter of Eberhard of Friuli (d. 864-6) by Gisela, daughter of the Emperor Lewis the Pines, son of Charlemagne. Professor David Kelley, however, suggests that Ralph de Gouy was the son of a Count Thuederic (liv. 888) of the Nibelungen family, son of Nibelung, Count of Vexin in 864, who is inferred by the descent in the family of the lordships of Perrecy and Jully to have been descended from Count Childebrand I, lord of Perrecy (d. 752), half-brother of King Charles Martel (grandfather of Charlemagne). The details of the descent are uncertain, but Count Childebrand was father of Nibelung, lord of Perrecy (liv. 768), who was grandfather of Nibelung, Count of Vexin in 805. He in turn was probably grandfather of the Nibelung, Count in 864, mentioned above (1)..."
(4) Les Origines du duche de Bourgogne, 1:537; J. Depoin, 'Etudes preparatoires a l'histoire des familles palatines,' Revue des Etudes historiques, 1908.
(5) Le Moyen Age, 49:81-125 (1939).
(1) p. 33 above.

Robert Forrest

Gjest

Re: Fw: Claimants to the English throne

Legg inn av Gjest » 12 jan 2007 19:01:02

In a message dated 1/11/2007 1:48:16 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
therav3@aol.com writes:

I'm sure that no one (of the list, anyway) takes the suggestion
of Claiming the Throne seriously.


Hold your tongue! I'm ready for my crown.

Will Johnson

norenxaq

Re: Fw: Claimants to the English throne

Legg inn av norenxaq » 12 jan 2007 20:23:37

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 1/11/2007 1:48:16 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
therav3@aol.com writes:

I'm sure that no one (of the list, anyway) takes the suggestion
of Claiming the Throne seriously.


Hold your tongue! I'm ready for my crown.

Will Johnson




crowns you :>

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: Fw: Claimants to the English throne

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 12 jan 2007 20:35:57

In message of 12 Jan, WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 1/11/2007 1:48:16 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
therav3@aol.com writes:

I'm sure that no one (of the list, anyway) takes the suggestion
of Claiming the Throne seriously.


Hold your tongue! I'm ready for my crown.

But you have to have a claim for it first, with documentation. Perhaps
it would help if you were to give us the run round it so that we can
assist you to get it right. I shall look forward to seeing your line.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/

Bob Turcott

Re: Fw: Claimants to the English throne

Legg inn av Bob Turcott » 12 jan 2007 21:32:17

some of us can claim being a descendant of the bastard and his cousin is the
confessor
in some fashion as for edgar, I have no clue. Maybe this could be an
opportunity for someone
if interested that could have supporting documentation that ties them to
edgar, it would bring them publicity at best, but definately no crown!


From: Tim Powys-Lybbe <tim@powys.org
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Fw: Claimants to the English throne
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 19:35:57 GMT

In message of 12 Jan, WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 1/11/2007 1:48:16 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
therav3@aol.com writes:

I'm sure that no one (of the list, anyway) takes the suggestion
of Claiming the Throne seriously.


Hold your tongue! I'm ready for my crown.

But you have to have a claim for it first, with documentation. Perhaps
it would help if you were to give us the run round it so that we can
assist you to get it right. I shall look forward to seeing your line.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/

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_________________________________________________________________
The MSN Entertainment Guide to Golden Globes is here. Get all the scoop.
http://tv.msn.com/tv/globes2007/?icid=nctagline2

Leo van de Pas

Re: Fw: Claimants to the English throne

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 12 jan 2007 21:57:52

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Turcott" <bobturcott@msn.com>
To: <tim@powys.org>; <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2007 7:32 AM
Subject: Re: Fw: Claimants to the English throne


some of us can claim being a descendant of the bastard and his cousin is
the
confessor
in some fashion as for edgar, I have no clue. Maybe this could be an
opportunity for someone
if interested that could have supporting documentation that ties them to
edgar, it would bring them publicity at best, but definately no crown!

-------I think it is a wild goose chase, but we could make it an interesting

one :-) I believe that exposure of information gives others the chance to
correct or add to information.

I have made a file with descendants of Aethelraed II 'the Unready', father
of Edward the Confessor, is anyone interested?
I hope it may add to other people's knowledge as well as improve my own,
which in the long run benefits my website, and so anyone who goes there.

With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia.

Don Stone

Re: Dreux of Mantes, "de prosapia Caroli Magni"

Legg inn av Don Stone » 12 jan 2007 22:05:22

Robert Forrest wrote:
I have this in my notes on Ralph de Gouy, from Sir Anthony Wagner's "English Genealogy," 1972, on p. 37:

"...There are three theories of the ancestry of Ralph de Gouy. Chaume (4) believed he was son of Walter, Count of Laon, whose ancestry he takes back to the same Warin (d. 677) from whom he deduced the Capetians and Plantagenets. Mr. Philiip Grierson (5) argues against this and suggests that the father of Ralph de Gouy was Hucbold, Count of Ostrevant (d. after 895). If so, Heiliwich would be the daughter of Eberhard of Friuli (d. 864-6) by Gisela, daughter of the Emperor Lewis the Pines, son of Charlemagne.
Professor David Kelley, however, suggests that Ralph de Gouy was the son of a Count Thuederic (liv. 888) of the Nibelungen family, son of Nibelung, Count of Vexin in 864, who is inferred by the descent in the family of the lordships of Perrecy and Jully to have been descended from Count Childebrand I, lord of Perrecy (d. 752), half-brother of King Charles Martel (grandfather of Charlemagne). The details of the descent are uncertain, but Count Childebrand was father of Nibelung, lord of Perrecy (liv. 768), who was grandfather of Nibelung, Count of Vexin in 805. He in turn was probably grandfather of the Nibelung, Count in 864, mentioned above (1)..."

For more on this latter proposal, see David H. Kelley, "The Nibelungs,"
Foundations, vol. 1, no. 6, July 2005, pp. 425-440.
(http://fmg.ac/FMG/Journal/01-06.htm#The%20Nibelungs)

(4) Les Origines du duche de Bourgogne, 1:537; J. Depoin, 'Etudes preparatoires a l'histoire des familles palatines,' Revue des Etudes historiques, 1908.
(5) Le Moyen Age, 49:81-125 (1939).
(1) p. 33 above.

Robert Forrest

Clagett, Brice

RE: Fw: Claimants to the English throne

Legg inn av Clagett, Brice » 12 jan 2007 22:58:16

It can be concluded that Elizabeth II is the current heir to the
Saxon etc. dynasties only if the usurpation of 1688 is allowed.
Absent that usurpation, the heir today is Franz Bonaventura
Adalbert Maria, Herzog von Bayern, born 1933. He has never married.
His heir is his brother Prince Max Emanuel, Herzog in Bayern,
whose heir is his daughter H.R.H. Sophie, hereditary Princess of
Liechtenstein.


-----Original Message-----
From: Tim Powys-Lybbe [mailto:tim@powys.org]
Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 5:24 PM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Fw: Claimants to the English throne

In message of 11 Jan, "John P. Ravilious" <therav3@aol.com> wrote:

Dear Leo,

I'm sure that no one (of the list, anyway) takes the suggestion
of Claiming the Throne seriously. At the same time, I assume they
will get some responses.

But it's not all for naught. This will probably give "Prince
Michael of Albany" something to do for the next several weeks.......

In part I agree with this statement about the non-prince. The point is that the line of claim does go through the Scottish kings to the English Sovereign, arriving at our current one:

1. Of Edward the Confessor, Harold and Edgar Aetheling, the last is
the successor to the other two as he was appointed such in 1066.

2. I have been unable to find any evidence of children to Edgar
Aetheling; so his heir was his sister St Margaret who married
Malcolm III king of Scotland.

3. The line from St Margaret follows that of the Scottish throne to
James VI of Scotland.

4. James the VI was also James I of England so the line follows his
successors, which is to the current sovereign, Elizabeth II.

Doubtless the non-prince would get quite excited by the fourth step.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/

trcharly@sbcglobal.net

Re: Jadwiga of Poland. "Angevin sickness"?

Legg inn av trcharly@sbcglobal.net » 12 jan 2007 23:37:16

I'm looking at porphyria through out the ages.
It is in all the royal familes not just England. The Dutch had their
own type and in England there's a special type called Chester that
started in Chester England.
Has any one seen a pattern of this disease?
Trudy
WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 1/8/07 3:49:18 PM Pacific Standard Time, qp10qp@aol.com
writes:

the death of Queen Jadwiga and her daughter Bonifacia in 1399 owing to
birth complications):

Heraldry of the Royal Families of Europe, Table 90 and Table 133
has a Queen of Poland who died in 1399
but calls her Hedwig
wife of
Wladislaw II (1351? - 1434), Grand Duke of Lithuania 1377-1401, King of
/Poland/ 1386-

After her death in 1399, Wladislaw married Anne of Cilly in 1401, the second
of his four wives.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Fw: Claimants to the English throne

Legg inn av Gjest » 13 jan 2007 00:01:02

I go back to both William the Conqueror and Harold - I think I'll get my
claim in quickly! There's bound to be many millions of us out here so i'd like
to stake my claim a.s.a.p!

Rose
Epsom Downs/ UK

Researching in Pembrokeshire: DAVIES (of St. Ishmael's/Talbenny), FEILD,
FERRIOR, ELLIOT (of Steynton/Amroth), THOMAS (of Marloes/Llanstadwell), CORNOCK,
HIER, ROWE (of Penally) and far too many others to list.

Researching in Ireland : Wexford - Ballycanew area: CRANWILL / CRANWELL,
KEEGAN, CONNORS / CONNOR.

Researching in Ireland : ST. LEGER

Researching in England : HEVENINGHAM

Gjest

Re: Claimants to the English throne

Legg inn av Gjest » 13 jan 2007 01:48:52

This discussion reminds me of "The Bed Sitting Room"

cheers

Simon

Douglas Richardson

Re: Sir Eudes la Zouche of Harringworth: Was he a son of Ell

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 13 jan 2007 01:55:42

Dear Patricia ~

My research indicates that Milicent de Cantelowe, widow of Sir Eudes la
Zouche, claimed dower in Syston, Leicestershire in Michaelmas term,
1280 against Ranulph [Fitz Robert] de Neville and his wife, Eupheme de
Clavering. Syston came into the Zouche family through Eupheme de
Clavering's maternal grandmother, Ellen de Quincy, wife of Sir Alan la
Zouche, which Ellen was daughter and co-heiress of Sir Roger de Quincy,
Earl of Winchester. Surviving records show that Sir Roger de Quincy
held the "town" of Syston, Leicestershire in 1251.

Below is the record of Milicent de Cantelowe's suit for dower at Syston
as given by George F. Farnham:

"Milicent who was the wife of Eudo la Zouche v. Ralph de Nevill and
Eufemia his wife in a plea of a third part of 12 messuages, 4 cottages,
11 virgates of land, etc., in Sytheston [Syston] as dower." Date:
Michaelmas 1280. [Reference: George F. Farnham, Leicestershire
Medieval Village Notes: histories of manors and villages, including
vital records of persons and families, unpaginated, citing De Banco
Roll 36. Michaelmas, 9 Edward I. 1280. m. 113d. Leic.].

Presumably the only way for Sir Eudes la Zouche to have obtained his
rights at Syston, Leicestershire would be by grant or gift of Ellen de
Quincy, wife of Sir Alan la Zouche. It is my belief that Sir Eudes la
Zouche (husband of Milicent de Cantelowe) was a younger son of Ellen de
Quincy. I'm attempting to determine if Sir Eudes la Zouche obtained
any other property of the Quincy inheritance besides his land holdings
at Syston.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Peter Stewart

Re: Dreux of Mantes, "de prosapia Caroli Magni"

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 13 jan 2007 07:56:02

"Robert Forrest" <forrest@WHIDBEY.COM> wrote in message
news:mailman.1317.1168623371.30800.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
I have this in my notes on Ralph de Gouy, from Sir Anthony Wagner's
"English Genealogy," 1972, on p. 37:

"...There are three theories of the ancestry of Ralph de Gouy. Chaume (4)
believed he was son of Walter, Count of Laon, whose ancestry he takes
back to the same Warin (d. 677) from whom he deduced the Capetians
and Plantagenets.

Chaume was fixated on the inheritance of leading names and supposed that
Walter must have come to the counts of Amiens-Valois from the father of
Raoul de Gouy: however, as Grierson pointed out, the name of the count
related to the Robertians who was beheaded in 892 was variously given as
"Walkerus" and "Waltgarius", i.e. Waldegar, not Walter (or "Walterius") in
the first place. Beyond this detail, taken from Depoin, Chaume was
hopelessly muddled with the family, confusing Ledgardis the wife of Raoul II
with her namesake of Vermandois who married successively William I of
Normandy and Thibaud I of Blois.

Mr. Philiip Grierson (5) argues against this and suggests that the father
of Ralph de Gouy was Hucbold, Count of Ostrevant (d. after 895). If so,
Heiliwich would be the daughter of Eberhard of Friuli (d. 864-6) by
Gisela, daughter of the Emperor Lewis the Pines, son of Charlemagne.

"Lewis the Pines" is more conventionally known as Louis the Pious.
Grierson's argument is far more cogent and carefully researched than the
other theories mentioned here.

Professor David Kelley, however, suggests that Ralph de Gouy was the
son of a Count Thuederic (liv. 888) of the Nibelungen family, son of
Nibelung, Count of Vexin in 864, who is inferred by the descent in the
family of the lordships of Perrecy and Jully to have been descended
from Count Childebrand I, lord of Perrecy (d. 752), half-brother of
King Charles Martel (grandfather of Charlemagne). The details of the
descent are uncertain, but Count Childebrand was father of Nibelung,
lord of Perrecy (liv. 768), who was grandfather of Nibelung, Count of
Vexin in 805. He in turn was probably grandfather of the Nibelung,
Count in 864, mentioned above (1)..."

This is a variation of the genealogy that used to be widely accepted before
Depoin, but as Grierson remarked it doesn't explain the reputation, noted by
Orderic, for descent from Charlemagne. In any case, Kelley's version of it
is based on an erratic hop, skip and jump across the evidence, as usual with
him.

Peter Stewart

Gjest

Re: Fw: Accurate history vs. Fish stories

Legg inn av Gjest » 13 jan 2007 20:11:02

Dear Douglas, Leo, Pierre , Peter S and others,
While
admittedly I have far less weight (credibility wise) than does Douglas, I
rather believe the Crossback story. King Edward and Queen Eleanor and probably
Prince Edmund were in the Holy Land when King Henry III died in 1272 and Edward
and Eleanor had to return to England. The Lady Joan who would marry Gilbert de
Clare, Earl of Hertford, Clare and Gloucester as his 2nd wife was born to the
royal couple at Acre.

Sincerely,

James W Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA

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