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Merilyn Pedrick

Re: Royal descents

Legg inn av Merilyn Pedrick » 24 des 2006 01:09:02

Dear Leo, Will et al

What an extraordinary project, and what results!

For my own interest I've just looked to see how many descents I have, and if
my programme is to be trusted (PAF) it seems I have 20 and my children
apparently have 99. I've never taken much notice of the facility in my
Relationships Calculator before, which counts how many descents one has from
a particular person, but I will certainly take more notice in future - it's
fascinating.

May I take this opportunity to wish everyone on Gen-Med a very happy
Christmas (or whatever) and great ancestor-hunting success in the New Year.

Merilyn Pedrick

Aldgate, South Australia



-------Original Message-------



From: Leo van de Pas

Date: 12/23/06 18:14:50

To: WJhonson@aol.com

Cc: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com

Subject: Re: Royal descents



Dear Will,



What a horrendous question.



I have just finished a project (with Ian Fettes) which gives lines of

descent from Geoffrey V of Anjou.

For the selected people only the shortest (according to the ancestor list

system) is given but by the person (there are 360 of these) is given the

number of descent from Geoffrey V -----which means according to my data

base. I already know that for some there are many more.



Here a few examples



Juan Carlos King of Spain 1938- ----------------------------------1,399,295

times

Margarethe II Queen of Denmark 1940- --------------------------1,159,191

times

Carl XVI Gustaf King of Sweden 1946- --------------------------1,082,798

times

Dr. Otto von Habsburg 1912- ------------------------------------1,021,554

times

Constantine II King of Greece 1940- ---------------------998,901 times

Michael I King of Roumania 1921- ------------------------949,927 times

Harald V King of Norway 1937- --------------------------787,447 times

Albert II King of the Belgians 1934- -----------------------683,844 times

Prince Philip the Duke of Edinburgh 1921- ----------------518,591 times

Beatrix Queen of The Netherlands, 1938- ----------------489,240 times

Umberto II, King of Italy 1904-1983----------------------407,117 times

Elizabeth II Queen of Great Britain 1926- ----------------297,840 times

Sarah Ferguson 1959- ----------------------------66,985 times

Albert II Prince of Monaco 1958- ----------------53,480 times

Lady Diana Spencer 1961-1997 -----------------41,466 times

Rachel Ward 1957- ------------------------------39,773 times

Peter de Loriol 1954- ---------------------------26,287 times

Jane Birkin 1946- --------------------------------25,496 times

Cayetana, Duchess of Alba 1926- ---------------24,944 times

David Cameron 1966- --------------------------24,876 (Britain's next PM?)

Lady Antonia Fraser 1932- ---------------------17,711 times (author and

historian)

Gottfried von Einem 1918-1996------------------16,171 times (composer)

Leka I of Albania 1939- -------------------------14,554 times

Brooke Shields 1965- ---------------------------12,337 times

Mathilde d'Udeken d'Acoz 1973- ------------------------8,471 times

Elizabeth the Queen Mother 1900-2002 ------------------7,957 times

Camilla Parker-Bowles 1947- ---------------------------7,762 times

Manfred von Richthofen 1892-1918 ----------------------7,219 times (the Red

Baron)

Count Fritz Szapary 1869-1935---------------------------6,232 times

Don Scipione Borghese 1871-1927 -----------------------6,112 times (Peking

to Paris)

Aga Khan IV 1936- --------------------------------------4,193 times

Finn Holbek 1958- -------------------------------------- 2,898 times

Guy Ritchie 1968- ----------------------------------------1,915 times

(married to Madonna)

Hugh Grant 1960- ----------------------------------------1,842 times

(actor)

Simon Fairthorne 1941- ----------------------------------1,648 times

Bertha von Suttner 1843-1914 ---------------------------1,343 times (Nobel

prize winner)

Fridtjof Nansen 1861-1930 ------------------------------1,109 times

Tim Powys-Lybbe 1938- ---------------------899 times

Wernher von Braun 1912-1977 ---------------752 times

John Steele Gordon 1944- --------------------605 times

Ian Fettes 1945- ------------------------------576 times

James Smithson 1765-1829 -------------------436 times

....................have been told he has many more

Clifton James 1897- ---------------------------340 times (during WW II was

Monty's double)

Ralph Vaughan Williams 1872-1958 -----------314 times (composer)

Audrey Hepburn 1929-1993 ------------------212 times

Sophie Rhys-Jones 1965- ---------------------204 times

Tony Hoskins 1948- --------------------------179 times

George Walker Bush 1946- ------------------115 times

Gary Boyd Roberts 1943 --------------------102 times

Gilbert von Studnitz 1950- -------------99 times

Rob Roy McGregor 1671-1734 -------95 times

John Ravilious 1954- -----------------90 times

Graham Greene 1904-1991 ------------89 times

Sir Francis Chichester 1901-1972 -------85 times

George Washington 1732-1799 ---------84 times

Valery Giscard d'Estaing 1926- --------84 times

Baron Pierre de Coubertin 1863-1937 ---68 times (reviver of the Olympic

games)

Meriwether Lewis 1774-1809 ----------67 times

David Starr Jordan 1851-1931 ---------67 times

Pope Benedict XIII 1649-1730 ---------60 times

the Marquis de Sade 1740-1814 --------57 times

Calvin Coolidge 1872-1933 ------------46 times (USA president)

Uma Thurman 1970- ------------------45 times

Kate Middleton 1982- ------------------44 times

Werner von Blomberg 1878-1946------39 times

Josephine de Beauharnais 1763-1814----28 times

Doug McDonald 1944- -----------------28 times

William Addams Reitwiesner 1954- -----26 times

Tom Hanks 1956- ----------------------9 times

Marcus Schenkenberg 1968- -----------8 times

Benjamin Harrison 1833-1901 ---------8 times (USA president)

George Andrews Moriarty 1883-1968 ------8 times

Jacques Lucien Monod 1910-1976 -----7 times (Nobel prize winner)

Prince Henrik of Denmark 1934- ------6 times

Donald Lines Jacobus 1887-1970 -------4 times

Arfturo Beeche 1965- -----------------4 times

Grant Menzies 1964- ------------------3 times

Michael Andrews-Reading 1968- -------2 times

Hermann Goering 1893-1946 ----------2 times





You ask about Edward III but the best person to ask is Ian Fettes, but I

doubt that he is able to say who has the most, because that is really a kind

of guessing.............who had thought that Jane Birkin had so many lines

to Geoffrey V of Anjou?



Hope this is of interest.

With best wishes

Leo van de Pas,

Canberra, Australia





----- Original Message -----

From: <WJhonson@aol.com>

To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL@rootsweb.com>

Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 4:49 PM

Subject: Royal descents





I just finished a project today where I found that my target person has no

less than seven seperate ascents to Richard Cecil.



That made me wonder if there have been studies to try to find the "most

common ancestor" of the titled class, or alternatively if there are

members of the

titled class for which every great-great-greatparent ascends to say Edward

III

or something like that.



That's not very clear is it?



I've heard that practically every European has an ascent to Charlemagne,

but

what person has the most ascents to Edward III (for example)? On this

list

there have been postings in the past showing that Prince Charles has a

lot, but

does he have the most ?



Will Johnson



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John Higgins

Re: Royal descents

Legg inn av John Higgins » 24 des 2006 01:28:23

The count in my data for the Plantagenet descents of Princes William and
Harry is currently 884,306 - a figure that is likely to change (probably
upward) with some analysis of Leo's numbers.

For the immigrant ancestors you mention, I have the following counts for
Plantagenet descents:
Philip Nelson - 275
Percival Lowell - 15
Deighton sisters - 48
Joseph Bolles - 17

There may well be some error in these numbers but they're probably not too
far off.....so, lots of descents.....


----- Original Message -----
From: <Jwc1870@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL@rootsweb.com>
Cc: <Jwc1870@AOL..com>
Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 3:23 PM
Subject: Re: Royal descents


Dear Leo, Will and others,
Prince William of Wales and his
brother Harry apparently have at least 857,897 descents from old Geoffrey
Plantagenet (Duke of Edinburgh + Queen Elizabeth II + Diana ). I honestly
don`t know
how many descents I have (Philip Nelson was a descendant of Henry III 30+
times
and Percival Lowell who at at least 3 descents is an ancestor 3 times
over,
Bolles had at least 2, the Deighton sisters around 5 , So I seem to have
around 46 descents.

Sincerely,

James W Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA

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Gjest

Re: Royal descents

Legg inn av Gjest » 24 des 2006 21:12:02

Dear J Higgins,
That was several descents (about 385 as opposed to
46.) I guess Capt Philip Nelson was descended from King Edward I 30 or more
times ( 9 going through Edward III, 1 from Edmund, 2 from Lionel, 5 from John
and 1 from Thomas). Any idea as to how many descents James Cudworth , another of
my ancestors had from Geoffrey ?
Sincerely,
James W
Cummings
Dixmont,
Maine USA

John Higgins

Re: Royal descents

Legg inn av John Higgins » 25 des 2006 00:45:49

Based on the line for James Cudworth shown in RD600, he appears to have 15
descents from Geoffrey....

----- Original Message -----
From: <Jwc1870@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL@rootsweb.com>
Cc: <Jwc1870@AOL..com>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2006 12:10 PM
Subject: Re: Royal descents


Dear J Higgins,
That was several descents (about 385 as opposed to
46.) I guess Capt Philip Nelson was descended from King Edward I 30 or
more
times ( 9 going through Edward III, 1 from Edmund, 2 from Lionel, 5 from
John
and 1 from Thomas). Any idea as to how many descents James Cudworth ,
another of
my ancestors had from Geoffrey ?
Sincerely,
James W
Cummings
Dixmont,
Maine USA

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quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Gjest

Re: Royal descents

Legg inn av Gjest » 25 des 2006 01:13:02

Dear J Higgins,
Thank You.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

Merilyn Pedrick

Re: Royal descents

Legg inn av Merilyn Pedrick » 25 des 2006 02:15:03

Dear James
Again, according to my PAF programme, he has 12 descents from Geoffrey. But
I suppose that if and when more Cudworth ancestors are revealed, there will
be more descents.
Merilyn

1st Descent

1. Geoffrey V Plantagenet, Comte d'Anjou, b. 1113
2. Henry II, King of England, b. 1132
3. Eleanor of England, b. 1161
4. Berengaria of Castile, b. 1180
5. Berengela of of Leon & Castile, b. 1198
6. Jean de Brienne, m. 1251
7. Blanche de Brienne, d. 1302
8. Margeret de Fiennes, m. 1285
9. Roger IV de Mortimer, b. 1287
10. Catherine de Mortimer, b. 1310
11. Maud de Beauchamp, d. 1402
12. Catherine de Clifford, b. 1358
13. Maud de Greystoke,
14. Lionel Welles, b. 1406
15. Eleanor Welles,
16. Ann Hoo, m. 1464
17. Margaret Copley, b. 1469
18. Edward Lewknor, b. 1521
19. Mary Lewknor, m. 1568
20. Mary Machell, b. 1574
21. James Cudworth, b. 1604

2nd Descent

4. Blanche of Castile, b. 1187
5. Louis IX, King of France, b. 1215
6. Philip III, King of France, b. 1245
7. Marguerite of France, b. 1279
8. Thomas of Brotherton, d. 1338
9. Margaret of Brotherton, b. 1320
10. Elizabeth de Segrave, b. 1338
11. Eleanor Mowbray, b. 1364
12. Eudo de Welles, b. 1421
13. Eleanor Welles etc. (see #15,1st Descent, above)

3rd Descent

4. Blanche of Castile, b. 1187
5. Robert I, Count of Artois, b. 1216
6. Blanche of Artois, b. 1247
7. Prince Henry, Earl of Lancaster, b. 1281
8. Joan of Lancaster, b. 1312
9. John, 4th Lord Mowbray, Duke of Norfolk, b. 1340
10. Eleanor Mowbray etc. (see #11, 2nd Descent, above)

4th Descent

3. "Lackland John", King of England, b. 1167
4. Richard Fitzroy, m. 1214
5. Isabel Fitzroy, b. 1218
6. Thomas II de Berkeley, b. 1245
7. Maurice III de Berkeley, b. 1271
8. Isabel de Berkeley, m. 1328
9. Margaret de Clifford,
10. Joan de Mauley
11. Robert Waterton, b. 1355
12. Sir Robert Waterton, b. 1362
13. Joan Waterton, b. 1407
14. Eleanor Welles etc. (see #10, 3rd Descent, above)

5th Descent

9. Roger V de Clifford, b. 1333
10. Catherine de Clifford, (see #12, 1st Descent, above)

6th Descent

3. "Lackland John", King of England, b. 1167
4. Henry III, King of England, b. 1207
5. Edward I, King of England, b. 1239
6. Thomas of Brotherton, etc. (see #8, 2nd Descent above)

7th Descent

4. Henry III, King of England, b. 1207
5. Edmund "Crouchback" of Lancaster, b. 1244
6. Prince Henry, Earl of Lancaster etc. (see #7, 3rd Descent above)

8th Descent

2. Henry II, King of England b. 1132
3. Sir William Longspee, 3rd Earl of Salisbury, b. 1176
4. Ida Longspee, b. 1211
5. Maud de Beauchamp, d. 1273
6. Roger, Lord Mowbray, m. 1270
7. John, 2nd Lord Mowbray, b. 1286
8. John, 3rd Lord Mowbray, b. 1310
9. John, 4th Lord Mowbray, Duke of Norfolk, b. 1340 etc (see #9, 3rd
Descent)

9th Descent

5. Maud de Beauchamp d. 1273
6. Maud de Mowbray,
7. Sir John d'Eiville, b. 1274
8. Joan d'Eiville, Lady of Egmanton, b. 1394
9. Sir Willliam de Everingham, b. 1348
10. Joan Everingham, b. 1362
11. Joan Waterton, b. 1407 etc. (see #13, 4th Descent above)

10th Descent

3. Sir William Longspee, 3rd Earl of Salisbury, b. 1176
4. Sir William II Longspee, b. 1200
5. Ela Longspee, b. 1228
6. Hugh de Audley, b. 1267
7. Alice de Audley, b. 1300
8. William de Greystoke, b. 1320
9. Ralph de Greystoke, b. 1353
10. Maud de Greystoke, etc. (see #13, 1st Descent above)

11th Descent

2. Hameline de Warenne, Earl of Surrey, m. 1164
3. Isabel de Warenne, d. 1234
4. Richard Fitzroy, m. 1214 etc. (see #4, 4th Descent above)

12th Descent

1. Geoffrey V Plantagenet, Comte d'Anjou
2. Hameline de Warenne, Earl of Surrey, m. 1164
3. Isabel de Warenne, d. 1234
4. Richard Fitzroy, m. 1214
5. Isabel Fitzroy, b. 1218
6. Thomas II de Berkeley, b. 1245
7. Maurice III de Berkeley, b. 1271
8. Isabel de Berkeley, m. 1328
9. Roger V de Clifford, b. 1333
10. Catherine de Clifford, b. 1358
11. Maud de Greystoke, see #13, 1st Descent above)

Happy Christmas day!
Merilyn


-------Original Message-------

From: Jwc1870@aol.com
Date: 12/25/06 06:41:17
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL@rootsweb.com
Cc: Jwc1870@AOL..com
Subject: Re: Royal descents

Dear J Higgins,
That was several descents (about 385 as opposed to
46.) I guess Capt Philip Nelson was descended from King Edward I 30 or more
times ( 9 going through Edward III, 1 from Edmund, 2 from Lionel, 5 from
John
and 1 from Thomas). Any idea as to how many descents James Cudworth ,
another of
my ancestors had from Geoffrey ?
Sincerely,
James W
Cummings
Dixmont,
Maine USA

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Merilyn Pedrick

Re: Royal descents

Legg inn av Merilyn Pedrick » 25 des 2006 02:18:02

Dear John and James
I've just been putting together the 12 descents I have, and didn't notice
this post come in. What are the three I'm missing please?
Merilyn



-------Original Message-------

From: John Higgins
Date: 12/25/06 10:19:59
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL@rootsweb.com
Cc: Jwc1870@AOL..com
Subject: Re: Royal descents

Based on the line for James Cudworth shown in RD600, he appears to have 15
descents from Geoffrey....

----- Original Message -----
From: <Jwc1870@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL@rootsweb.com>
Cc: <Jwc1870@AOL..com>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2006 12:10 PM
Subject: Re: Royal descents


Dear J Higgins,
That was several descents (about 385 as opposed to
46.) I guess Capt Philip Nelson was descended from King Edward I 30 or
more
times ( 9 going through Edward III, 1 from Edmund, 2 from Lionel, 5 from
John
and 1 from Thomas). Any idea as to how many descents James Cudworth ,
another of
my ancestors had from Geoffrey ?
Sincerely,
James W
Cummings
Dixmont,
Maine USA

-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the

quotes in the subject and the body of the message


-------------------------------
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Gjest

Re: Royal descents

Legg inn av Gjest » 25 des 2006 05:36:02

Dear Merilyn,
Happy Christmas to You as well. I have a 13th and 14th
for You.
13th 3. John , King of England by Clemence (?)
4. Joan of England married Llewelyn Fawr, Prince of Wales
5 Gladys Ddu married Ralph de Mortimer, lord of Wigmore
6 Roger III de Mortimer, lord of Wigmore married Maud de Braose
7 Edmund I de Mortimer married Margaret de Fiennes
8 Roger IV de Mortimer, 1st Earl of March married Joan de
Geneville

14th 2 Hamelyn de Warrene, Earl of Warrene and Surrey
3 Maud de Warrene married Henry , Count of Eu
4 Alice d`Eu married Humphrey de Bohun, Earl of Hereford and
Essex
5 Alice de Bohun married Roger V de Toeni, lord of Flamstead
6 Ralph VII de Toeni, lord of Flamstead married Mary (quite
possily a de Roos)
7 Alice de Toeni married Guy de Beauchamp, 10th Earl of Warwick
8 Thomas de Beauchamp, 11th Earl of Warwick married Katherine
de Mortimer
9 Maud de Beauchamp married Roger V de Clifford

And here`s an interesting non- Plantagenet line
1 Ida de Toeni (former mistress of Henry II) married Roger le
Bigod, 2nd Earl of Norfolk
2 Hugh le Bigod, 3rd Earl of Norfolk married Maud Marshal,
dau. of William, Earl of Pembroke
3 Isabel le Bigod married !st Gilbert de Lacy of Trim, 2nd
John Fitzgeoffrey
4 (by 1) Maud Lacy married Geoffrey de Geneville (Joinville),
1st Baron Geneville
5 Peter de Geneville married Jeanne, daughter of Hugues XII,
Sire de Lusignan
6 Joan de Geneville married Roger IV de Mortimer, 1st Earl of
March
Sincerely,
James W
Cummings
Dixmont,
Maine USA

John Higgins

Re: Royal descents

Legg inn av John Higgins » 25 des 2006 07:11:23

All of the descents to James Cudworth are via Eleanor Welles, wife of
Thomas, 1st Lord Hoo. Three of your descents (#4, 9, and 11) are through
Eleanor's mother Joan Waterton. I have #9, although with some doubt since
there is uncertainty about the parentage [and the name] of Joan Waterton
(for which see the archives). #4 and # 11 depend on Mrgaret Clifford, wife
of Piers de Mauley. I understand Margaret to be believed to be sister, not
daughter, of Sir Robert de Clifford, 3rd Lord Clifford, who mar. Isabel de
Berkeley This seems chronologically correct, and if so these two descents
don't stand up.

Joan [or Cecily] Waterton was wife to Lionel Wells, 6th Lord Welles. You
show 5 descents (2, 3, 6, 7, 8) through Lionel's father Eudo [or Eudes or
Ives] and 4 descents (1, 5, 10, and 12) through Lionel's mother Maud
Greystoke, and JWC in a subsequent message added two more (13 and 14) for
Maud Greystoke. So my data shows 2 additional descents through Lionel's
father Eudo and 1 more thorugh his mother Maud Greystoke.

Of the 2 addiitional descents through Eudo, one starts with Sir Roger
Mortimer (#6 in descent 13) and goes as follows:
Isabel Mortimer; m. John FitzAlan
Richard FitzAlan, 8th Earl of Arundel; m. Alasia de Saluzzo
Alice FitzAlan [or Arundel]; m. Stephen Segrave, 3rd Lord Segrave
John Segrave, 4th Lord Segrave; m. Margaret [Plantagenet] [#9 in descent 2]

The other descent through Eudo is considerably more questionable, as it
depends on the parentage of the children of Llewelyn ap Iorwerth, some of
whose children were by Joan, illegitmate daughter of King John. If the
descent is valid [probably not], it goes as follows:
Margred ferch Llywelyn ab Iorwerth; m. (1) John de Braose [or Brewes] of
Bramber, Sussex
Sir William de Brewes of Bramber, 1st Lord Brewes; m. (1) Aline de Multon
Aline de Brewes; m. (1) Sir John de Mowbray, 2nd Lord Mowbray [#7 in
descent 8]

The additional descent through Maud Greystoke also starts with Sir Roger
Mortimer (#6 in descent 13), whose daughter Iseult de Mortimer; m. (2) Sir
Hugh Audley [#6 in descent 10].

Hopes this helps....Merry Christmas!!

----- Original Message -----
From: "Merilyn Pedrick" <pedricks@ozemail.com.au>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL@rootsweb.com>; <Jwc1870@aol.com>
Cc: <Jwc1870@AOL..com>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2006 5:12 PM
Subject: Re: Royal descents




Dear James
Again, according to my PAF programme, he has 12 descents from Geoffrey.
But
I suppose that if and when more Cudworth ancestors are revealed, there
will
be more descents.
Merilyn

1st Descent

1. Geoffrey V Plantagenet, Comte d'Anjou, b. 1113
2. Henry II, King of England, b. 1132
3. Eleanor of England, b. 1161
4. Berengaria of Castile, b. 1180
5. Berengela of of Leon & Castile, b. 1198
6. Jean de Brienne, m. 1251
7. Blanche de Brienne, d. 1302
8. Margeret de Fiennes, m. 1285
9. Roger IV de Mortimer, b. 1287
10. Catherine de Mortimer, b. 1310
11. Maud de Beauchamp, d. 1402
12. Catherine de Clifford, b. 1358
13. Maud de Greystoke,
14. Lionel Welles, b. 1406
15. Eleanor Welles,
16. Ann Hoo, m. 1464
17. Margaret Copley, b. 1469
18. Edward Lewknor, b. 1521
19. Mary Lewknor, m. 1568
20. Mary Machell, b. 1574
21. James Cudworth, b. 1604

2nd Descent

4. Blanche of Castile, b. 1187
5. Louis IX, King of France, b. 1215
6. Philip III, King of France, b. 1245
7. Marguerite of France, b. 1279
8. Thomas of Brotherton, d. 1338
9. Margaret of Brotherton, b. 1320
10. Elizabeth de Segrave, b. 1338
11. Eleanor Mowbray, b. 1364
12. Eudo de Welles, b. 1421
13. Eleanor Welles etc. (see #15,1st Descent, above)

3rd Descent

4. Blanche of Castile, b. 1187
5. Robert I, Count of Artois, b. 1216
6. Blanche of Artois, b. 1247
7. Prince Henry, Earl of Lancaster, b. 1281
8. Joan of Lancaster, b. 1312
9. John, 4th Lord Mowbray, Duke of Norfolk, b. 1340
10. Eleanor Mowbray etc. (see #11, 2nd Descent, above)

4th Descent

3. "Lackland John", King of England, b. 1167
4. Richard Fitzroy, m. 1214
5. Isabel Fitzroy, b. 1218
6. Thomas II de Berkeley, b. 1245
7. Maurice III de Berkeley, b. 1271
8. Isabel de Berkeley, m. 1328
9. Margaret de Clifford,
10. Joan de Mauley
11. Robert Waterton, b. 1355
12. Sir Robert Waterton, b. 1362
13. Joan Waterton, b. 1407
14. Eleanor Welles etc. (see #10, 3rd Descent, above)

5th Descent

9. Roger V de Clifford, b. 1333
10. Catherine de Clifford, (see #12, 1st Descent, above)

6th Descent

3. "Lackland John", King of England, b. 1167
4. Henry III, King of England, b. 1207
5. Edward I, King of England, b. 1239
6. Thomas of Brotherton, etc. (see #8, 2nd Descent above)

7th Descent

4. Henry III, King of England, b. 1207
5. Edmund "Crouchback" of Lancaster, b. 1244
6. Prince Henry, Earl of Lancaster etc. (see #7, 3rd Descent above)

8th Descent

2. Henry II, King of England b. 1132
3. Sir William Longspee, 3rd Earl of Salisbury, b. 1176
4. Ida Longspee, b. 1211
5. Maud de Beauchamp, d. 1273
6. Roger, Lord Mowbray, m. 1270
7. John, 2nd Lord Mowbray, b. 1286
8. John, 3rd Lord Mowbray, b. 1310
9. John, 4th Lord Mowbray, Duke of Norfolk, b. 1340 etc (see #9, 3rd
Descent)

9th Descent

5. Maud de Beauchamp d. 1273
6. Maud de Mowbray,
7. Sir John d'Eiville, b. 1274
8. Joan d'Eiville, Lady of Egmanton, b. 1394
9. Sir Willliam de Everingham, b. 1348
10. Joan Everingham, b. 1362
11. Joan Waterton, b. 1407 etc. (see #13, 4th Descent above)

10th Descent

3. Sir William Longspee, 3rd Earl of Salisbury, b. 1176
4. Sir William II Longspee, b. 1200
5. Ela Longspee, b. 1228
6. Hugh de Audley, b. 1267
7. Alice de Audley, b. 1300
8. William de Greystoke, b. 1320
9. Ralph de Greystoke, b. 1353
10. Maud de Greystoke, etc. (see #13, 1st Descent above)

11th Descent

2. Hameline de Warenne, Earl of Surrey, m. 1164
3. Isabel de Warenne, d. 1234
4. Richard Fitzroy, m. 1214 etc. (see #4, 4th Descent above)

12th Descent

1. Geoffrey V Plantagenet, Comte d'Anjou
2. Hameline de Warenne, Earl of Surrey, m. 1164
3. Isabel de Warenne, d. 1234
4. Richard Fitzroy, m. 1214
5. Isabel Fitzroy, b. 1218
6. Thomas II de Berkeley, b. 1245
7. Maurice III de Berkeley, b. 1271
8. Isabel de Berkeley, m. 1328
9. Roger V de Clifford, b. 1333
10. Catherine de Clifford, b. 1358
11. Maud de Greystoke, see #13, 1st Descent above)

Happy Christmas day!
Merilyn


-------Original Message-------

From: Jwc1870@aol.com
Date: 12/25/06 06:41:17
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL@rootsweb.com
Cc: Jwc1870@AOL..com
Subject: Re: Royal descents

Dear J Higgins,
That was several descents (about 385 as opposed to
46.) I guess Capt Philip Nelson was descended from King Edward I 30 or
more
times ( 9 going through Edward III, 1 from Edmund, 2 from Lionel, 5 from
John
and 1 from Thomas). Any idea as to how many descents James Cudworth ,
another of
my ancestors had from Geoffrey ?
Sincerely,
James W
Cummings
Dixmont,
Maine USA

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Leo van de Pas

Re: Royal descents

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 25 des 2006 07:19:43

Dear James,

See in between.
Leo

----- Original Message -----
From: <Jwc1870@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL@rootsweb.com>
Cc: <Jwc1870@AOL..com>
Sent: Monday, December 25, 2006 3:34 PM
Subject: Re: Royal descents


Dear Merilyn,
Happy Christmas to You as well. I have a 13th and
14th
for You.
13th 3. John , King of England by Clemence (?)
4. Joan of England married Llewelyn Fawr, Prince of Wales
(1).........................as far as I understand Gladys Ddu was not by

Joan but by Tangwystl, this would cut this line

5 Gladys Ddu married Ralph de Mortimer, lord of Wigmore
6 Roger III de Mortimer, lord of Wigmore married Maud de
Braose
7 Edmund I de Mortimer married Margaret de Fiennes
8 Roger IV de Mortimer, 1st Earl of March married Joan de
Geneville

14th 2 Hamelyn de Warrene, Earl of Warrene and Surrey
3 Maud de Warrene married Henry , Count of Eu
(2)......I think here fits in another generatioon, Maud de Lusignan
4 Alice d`Eu married Humphrey de Bohun, Earl of Hereford and
Essex
5 Alice de Bohun married Roger V de Toeni, lord of Flamstead
6 Ralph VII de Toeni, lord of Flamstead married Mary (quite
possily a de Roos)
7 Alice de Toeni married Guy de Beauchamp, 10th Earl of
Warwick
8 Thomas de Beauchamp, 11th Earl of Warwick married Katherine
de Mortimer
9 Maud de Beauchamp married Roger V de Clifford

And here`s an interesting non- Plantagenet line
1 Ida de Toeni (former mistress of Henry II) married Roger
le
Bigod, 2nd Earl of Norfolk
2 Hugh le Bigod, 3rd Earl of Norfolk married Maud Marshal,
dau. of William, Earl of Pembroke
3 Isabel le Bigod married !st Gilbert de Lacy of Trim, 2nd
John Fitzgeoffrey
4 (by 1) Maud Lacy married Geoffrey de Geneville
(Joinville),
1st Baron Geneville
5 Peter de Geneville married Jeanne, daughter of Hugues
XII,
Sire de Lusignan
6 Joan de Geneville married Roger IV de Mortimer, 1st Earl
of
March
Sincerely,
James W
Cummings

Dixmont,
Maine USA


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Gjest

Re: Royal descents

Legg inn av Gjest » 25 des 2006 11:31:49

Jwc1870@aol.com wrote:
Dear Leo, Will and others,
Prince William of Wales and his
brother Harry apparently have at least 857,897 descents from old Geoffrey
Plantagenet (Duke of Edinburgh + Queen Elizabeth II + Diana ). I honestly don`t know
how many descents I have (Philip Nelson was a descendant of Henry III 30+ times
and Percival Lowell who at at least 3 descents is an ancestor 3 times over,
Bolles had at least 2, the Deighton sisters around 5 , So I seem to have
around 46 descents.

Sincerely,

James W Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA

William Windsor, Prince of Great Britain is a descendant of the 24th
generation of Geoffroi V Plantagenêt, duc de Normandie. 4 branches

William Windsor, Prince of Great Britain is also a descendant of the
25th generation of Geoffroi V Plantagenêt, duc de Normandie. 126
branches

William Windsor, Prince of Great Britain is also a descendant of the
26th generation of Geoffroi V Plantagenêt, duc de Normandie. 1,782
branches

William Windsor, Prince of Great Britain is also a descendant of the
27th generation of Geoffroi V Plantagenêt, duc de Normandie. 13,000
branches.

William Windsor, Prince of Great Britain is also a descendant of the
28th generation of Geoffroi V Plantagenêt, duc de Normandie. 54,660
branches

William Windsor, Prince of Great Britain is also a descendant of the
29th generation of Geoffroi V Plantagenêt, duc de Normandie. 137,211
branches

William Windsor, Prince of Great Britain is also a descendant of the
30th generation of Geoffroi V Plantagenêt, duc de Normandie. 218,159
branches

William Windsor, Prince of Great Britain is also a descendant of the
31st generation of Geoffroi V Plantagenêt, duc de Normandie. 222,883
branches

William Windsor, Prince of Great Britain is also a descendant of the
32nd generation of Geoffroi V Plantagenêt, duc de Normandie. 144,240
branches

William Windsor, Prince of Great Britain is also a descendant of the
33rd generation of Geoffroi V Plantagenêt, duc de Normandie. 58,792
branches

William Windsor, Prince of Great Britain is also a descendant of the
34th generation of Geoffroi V Plantagenêt, duc de Normandie. 14,562
branches

William Windsor, Prince of Great Britain is also a descendant of the
35th generation of Geoffroi V Plantagenêt, duc de Normandie. 2,425
branches

William Windsor, Prince of Great Britain is also a descendant of the
36th generation of Geoffroi V Plantagenêt, duc de Normandie. 298
branches

William Windsor, Prince of Great Britain is also a descendant of the
37th generation of Geoffroi V Plantagenêt, duc de Normandie. 24
branches

Total: 868,166 relationship links


source : http://geneweb.inria.fr/roglo?lang=en

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: Royal descents

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 25 des 2006 12:11:11

In message of 25 Dec, OlivierGuionneau@gmail.com wrote:

Jwc1870@aol.com wrote:
Dear Leo, Will and others,
Prince William of Wales and his
brother Harry apparently have at least 857,897 descents from old
Geoffrey Plantagenet (Duke of Edinburgh + Queen Elizabeth II +
Diana ). I honestly don`t know how many descents I have (Philip
Nelson was a descendant of Henry III 30+ times and Percival Lowell
who at at least 3 descents is an ancestor 3 times over, Bolles had
at least 2, the Deighton sisters around 5 , So I seem to have around
46 descents.

Sincerely,

James W Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA

William Windsor,

I don't think his surname is Windsor. At Sandhurst he is known as Wm
Wales, like his brother before him.

I suspect the problem really is that he has no surname, though he is
undoubtedly of the House of Windsor.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/

Gjest

Re: Royal descents

Legg inn av Gjest » 26 des 2006 00:44:02

In a message dated 12/24/06 5:13:21 PM Pacific Standard Time,
pedricks@ozemail.com.au writes:

<< 15. Eleanor Welles,
16. Ann Hoo, m. 1464
17. Margaret Copley, b. 1469
18. Edward Lewknor, b. 1521
19. Mary Lewknor, m. 1568 >>

Out of any of these suspect birthyears you should have Ann Hoo's :)
She was "aged 8 at her father's death"
That may be from CP, Vol VI, p 561-7: "Hoo"

Merilyn Pedrick

Re: Royal descents

Legg inn av Merilyn Pedrick » 26 des 2006 00:53:02

Thanks Will
That would make it about 1447.
Merilyn




-------Original Message-------

From: WJhonson@aol.com
Date: 12/26/06 10:12:24
To: pedricks@ozemail.com.au; GEN-MEDIEVAL@rootsweb.com; Jwc1870@aol.com
Cc: Jwc1870@AOL..com
Subject: Re: Royal descents

In a message dated 12/24/06 5:13:21 PM Pacific Standard Time,
pedricks@ozemail.com.au writes:

<< 15. Eleanor Welles,
16. Ann Hoo, m. 1464
17. Margaret Copley, b. 1469
18. Edward Lewknor, b. 1521
19. Mary Lewknor, m. 1568 >>

Out of any of these suspect birthyears you should have Ann Hoo's :)
She was "aged 8 at her father's death"
That may be from CP, Vol VI, p 561-7: "Hoo"

Mike Ruby

Re: ... Rice ... East Anglia

Legg inn av Mike Ruby » 27 des 2006 10:07:00

Dora Smith wrote:

Edmund Rice's direct paternal ancestry was Norse. If
he spent time in Denmark and traded across the English channel, he was even
still Norse.

Dora,

An important correction if I may. Individuals whose paternal line has
been *traced to Edmund Rice* through traditional genealogy are carriers
of a Y-chromosome haplogroup that is also very common in Norway and in
regions of medieval Norse settlement. This does not necessarily make
him Norse. It certainly does not make him Norman, and it certainly
does not rule out his name being Welsh. Y-chromosome genetics and
surnames often do not match up for a variety of reasons, most of which
are off-color, and which, far from making genetic genealogy a lesser
tool, make it more fun, if you are honest about it.

That Y-chromosome could have come to East Anglia, thence to a
patrilineal descendant of Edmund Rice in so many different ways

1. Norway to the Irish Sea coast of Wales via Viking settlement (or
just rape) in the 9th century, then overland or through coastal trade
to East Anglia over the next few centuries, in time to be Rice's
patrilineage.
2. Norway to Normandy with one of Rollo's buddies in the 9th century,
to England in the 11th.
3. Norway to Denmark to the Danelaw to East Anglia.
4. Norway to East Anglia before written history was around to record
migrations from Scandinavia to the Isles, which no doubt occurred
before. Trade routes across the Baltic and North Seas existed
millennia before the Vikings --- Rice's first patrilineal ancestor to
live in England, to have arrived from what is now Norway, could have
been a 5th millennia BCE amber trader who spoke some sort of Finnic
language.

.... and thence to either Edmund Rice, or to one or more of Edmund
Rice's sons or grandsons through his wife's adultery. You'd have no
way of knowing that. Non-paternity rates are high enough to make our
backwards assumptions about our markers subject to a strong margin of
error. Edmund Rice himself could have been R1b, not I1A.

Mike Ruby

Douglas Richardson

Margaret de Clifford, wife of Peter de Mauley

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 27 des 2006 16:41:12

Dear Merilyn ~

Your 4th Descent has a serious glitch. Margaret de Clifford (your Gen.
9) was the sister-in-law of Isabel de Berkeley (your Gen. 8), not her
daughter. These two women were married respectively in c. 1322 (date
of pardon) and in 1328, and thus were the same approximate age. Thus,
this descent from Geoffrey Plantagenet fails.

Also, Isabel Fitzroy (your Gen. 5) was never known by this name. Her
brother, Richard, was known as Richard de Dover, or as Richard de
Chilham:

1. Calender of Patent Rolls, 1232-1247 (1906): 427 (Richard de Dovor
styled "king's kinsman").

2. Calender of Liberate Rolls 2 (1930): 122 (Richard son of Richard de
Chilham styled "king's nephew"), 249 (Richard de Dovor styled
"king's kinsman").

Likewise, Isabel's nephew was known as Richard de Dover:

1. Calender of Patent Rolls, 1258-1266 (1910): 508 (Richard de Dovorr
styled "king's kinsman").

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Merilyn Pedrick wrote:

< Again, according to my PAF programme, he has 12 descents from
Geoffrey. But
< I suppose that if and when more Cudworth ancestors are revealed,
there will
< be more descents.
< Merilyn
<
< 4th Descent
<
< 3. "Lackland John", King of England, b. 1167
< 4. Richard Fitzroy, m. 1214
< 5. Isabel Fitzroy, b. 1218
< 6. Thomas II de Berkeley, b. 1245
< 7. Maurice III de Berkeley, b. 1271
< 8. Isabel de Berkeley, m. 1328
< 9. Margaret de Clifford,
< 10. Joan de Mauley
< 11. Robert Waterton, b. 1355
< 12. Sir Robert Waterton, b. 1362
< 13. Joan Waterton, b. 1407
< 14. Eleanor Welles etc. (see #10, 3rd Descent, above)

Happy Christmas day!
Merilyn

Douglas Richardson

Margaret Marshal, wife of John de Segrave, Knt., and Walter

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 27 des 2006 17:19:33

Dear Marilyn ~

In your 2nd Descent, you have listed Margaret of Brotherton, born 1320
(your Gen. 9).

I have seen many records of this lady. In her adult life (after her
father's death), she occurs regularly in records as Margaret Marshal,
doubtless from her title Countess Marshal. See, for example, her
petition to the king published in Rees, Calender of Ancient Petitions
Rel. to Wales (Board of Celtic Studies, Hist. & Law 28) (1975):
375-376.

As far as I know, she never occurs as either Margaret of Norfolk, nor
as Margaret of Brotherton.

There is one record of her found in an ancient pedigree of the Segrave
family which refers to her as Margaret of Brotherton:

"Qui Johannes [de Segrave] nupsit domine Margarete de Brotherton; de
quibus Johannes de Segrave & Elizabetha" [Reference: "Chronicis apud
Chaucombe" in Nichols, Hist. & Antiq. of Leicestershire 2(1) (1795):
137-139; 3(1) (1800): 240].

The rendering of her name as Margaret of Brotherton in this pedigree
seems odd to me. If Margaret was known as anything as a young girl,
she would have been called "Margaret daughter of Thomas, Earl of
Norfolk, Marshal of England," not as Margaret of Brotherton.

As for Brotherton itself, this was the birthplace of Margaret's father,
Thomas, Earl of Norfolk; hence, he occurs occasionally in records as
Thomas of Brotherton. Brotherton was not his surname; rather, it was
simply a moniker ... much like we might refer to you in modern times
informally as "Merliyn in Australia." Australia would not be your
surname.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Merilyn Pedrick wrote:
< Dear James
< Again, according to my PAF programme, he has 12 descents from
Geoffrey. But
< I suppose that if and when more Cudworth ancestors are revealed,
there will
< be more descents.
< Merilyn
<
< 2nd Descent
<
< 4. Blanche of Castile, b. 1187
< 5. Louis IX, King of France, b. 1215
< 6. Philip III, King of France, b. 1245
< 7. Marguerite of France, b. 1279
< 8. Thomas of Brotherton, d. 1338
< 9. Margaret of Brotherton, b. 1320
< 10. Elizabeth de Segrave, b. 1338
< 11. Eleanor Mowbray, b. 1364
< 12. Eudo de Welles, b. 1421
< 13. Eleanor Welles etc. (see #15,1st Descent, above)

Douglas Richardson

Sir Edmund son of Henry, King of England, not Edmund Crouchb

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 27 des 2006 17:42:40

Dear Merilyn ~

In your 7th Descent, you refer to Edmund "Crouchback" of Lancaster,
born 1244.

Actually, this popular royal prince was never known as Edmund
"Crouchback," nor was he hunchbacked. The erroneous nickname
"Crouchback" is based on a false legend generated years after Edmund's
death by John of Gaunt and his son, Henry [afterwards King Henry IV].
For particulars of this curious matter, see Given-Wilson, Chronicles of
the Revolution, 1399-1400 (1993): 195-196, which provides excerpts
from John Hardyng's chronicle explaining the origin of false legend
that Edmund, Earl of Lancaster, was hunchbacked. See also Hicks,
Who's Who in Late Medieval England (1991): 7-9 (biog. of Edmund
Crouchback), who explains that "the epithet 'Crouchback'... is
not given to him by any contemporary chronicler... for all that we know
of him points to his having been both handsome and skilled in
arms."). For a description of Edmund's winning personality, see Coat
of Arms 10 (1969): 260-275 ("... was of a gay and pleasant
disposition... a generous and popular prince, observant in religion
like all his family and a keen business man in the management of his
vast estates").

Edmund's usual style in contemporary records was "Sir Edmund, son of
Henry, king of England" or "Sir Edmund, the King's son"
[References: Giffard, Reg. of Walter Giffard Lord Archbishop of York
1266-1279 (Surtees Soc. 109) (1904): 65; Romeyn, Reg. of John le
Romeyn Lord Archbishop of York 1286-1296 1 (Surtees Soc. 123) (1913):
134].

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Merilyn Pedrick wrote:
Dear James
Again, according to my PAF programme, he has 12 descents from

Geoffrey. But
< I suppose that if and when more Cudworth ancestors are revealed,
there will
< be more descents.
< Merilyn
<
< 7th Descent
<
< 4. Henry III, King of England, b. 1207
< 5. Edmund "Crouchback" of Lancaster, b. 1244
< 6. Prince Henry, Earl of Lancaster etc. (see #7, 3rd Descent above)

Gjest

Re: Heirs of Catherine Grey

Legg inn av Gjest » 27 des 2006 18:32:02

In a message dated 12/27/2006 6:31:02 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
herillustriousness@gmail.com writes:

-Henry Seymour, Lord Beauchamp (1626-30 March 1654), married Mary
Capell.
-Lady Mary Seymour (1637-10 April 1673), married Heneage Finch, 3rd
Earl of Winchilsea.
-Jane Seymour (1637-23 November 1679), married Charles Boyle,
Viscount Dungarvan.

I can't find any information on any of these, merely that Lady Mary
Seymour indeed had issue, but nothing on who they are. Any help would
be greatly appreciated.


Here you go
_http://www.genealogics.org/descend.php?personID=I00007134&tree=LEO_
(http://www.genealogics.org/descend.php? ... 4&tree=LEO)

Merry Christmas

Gjest

Re: Roger de Mortimer's alleged kinsman, Sir John Darcy "le

Legg inn av Gjest » 28 des 2006 00:02:02

In a message dated 12/27/06 10:25:53 AM Pacific Standard Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:

<< This particular John Darcy was known to contemporaries as "John Darcy
the cousin" to distinguish him from other men named John Darcy in his
immediate family. The style "the cousin" does not imply or infer that
John Darcy was related to Roger de Mortimer, Earl of March >>

It's also possible that this John Darcy died on or about 30 May 1347 and it
was his son (also John) who died 5 Mar 1356

I suspicious of this claim that he was called "the cousin" by everyone. I'd
like to see more documents where he is called "the cousin" by other people.

Btw his own father has been variously called Richard Darcy of Oldcotes or
also Roger Darcy of Oldcotes (son of Philip Darcy d 1263 by his wife Isabel
Bertram)

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: John de Swynford's alleged kinsman, Sir John Darcy

Legg inn av Gjest » 28 des 2006 00:07:02

In a message dated 12/27/06 12:01:23 PM Pacific Standard Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:

<< The only reference I
can find in the document is to "John Darcy son Unkle" (that is, "John
Darcy his Uncle"). Thus, it would appear that John Darcy was actually
John de Swynford's uncle, not his kinsman as stated in the modern
online transcripts. >>

How does "son Unkle" turn into Uncle?
I would think this could be read as "son [of my] Uncle"

Will Johnson

Leo van de Pas

Re: Sir Edmund son of Henry, King of England, not Edmund Cro

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 28 des 2006 00:22:55

I find it surprising and offensive that Richardson criticises Merilyn for
using the term Crouchback.

Europaisch Stammtafeln (Schwennicke) Volume II Tafel 83, mentions him as
Edmund Crouchback

Burke's Guide to the Royal Family, Page 196 records him as Edmund
(Crouchback)

Debretts Kings and Queens of Britain, by David Williamson, page 69, calls
him Edmund Crouchback, here also is mentioned he was titular King of Sicily

Burke's Peerage 1967, page xii calls him Edmund, Crouchback, Earl of
Lancaster, Leicester and Derby, King of Sicily.
On page xxviii also is mentioned "House of Anjou, whose English branch is
commonly called Plantagenet."

I think in general names, applied after the facts, help us identify the
correct individual. For instance in the "Plantagenet" Royal Family also can
be found

Edmund, Earl of Cornwall, 1249-1300
Edmund of Woodstock, 1301-1330
Edmund, 2nd Earl of Kent, 1326-1333

With best wishes
Leo van de Pas,
Canberra, Australia





----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval,soc.history.medieval
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 3:42 AM
Subject: Sir Edmund son of Henry, King of England, not Edmund Crouchback


Dear Merilyn ~

In your 7th Descent, you refer to Edmund "Crouchback" of Lancaster,
born 1244.

Actually, this popular royal prince was never known as Edmund
"Crouchback," nor was he hunchbacked. The erroneous nickname
"Crouchback" is based on a false legend generated years after Edmund's
death by John of Gaunt and his son, Henry [afterwards King Henry IV].
For particulars of this curious matter, see Given-Wilson, Chronicles of
the Revolution, 1399-1400 (1993): 195-196, which provides excerpts
from John Hardyng's chronicle explaining the origin of false legend
that Edmund, Earl of Lancaster, was hunchbacked. See also Hicks,
Who's Who in Late Medieval England (1991): 7-9 (biog. of Edmund
Crouchback), who explains that "the epithet 'Crouchback'... is
not given to him by any contemporary chronicler... for all that we know
of him points to his having been both handsome and skilled in
arms."). For a description of Edmund's winning personality, see Coat
of Arms 10 (1969): 260-275 ("... was of a gay and pleasant
disposition... a generous and popular prince, observant in religion
like all his family and a keen business man in the management of his
vast estates").

Edmund's usual style in contemporary records was "Sir Edmund, son of
Henry, king of England" or "Sir Edmund, the King's son"
[References: Giffard, Reg. of Walter Giffard Lord Archbishop of York
1266-1279 (Surtees Soc. 109) (1904): 65; Romeyn, Reg. of John le
Romeyn Lord Archbishop of York 1286-1296 1 (Surtees Soc. 123) (1913):
134].

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Merilyn Pedrick wrote:
Dear James
Again, according to my PAF programme, he has 12 descents from
Geoffrey. But
I suppose that if and when more Cudworth ancestors are revealed,
there will
be more descents.
Merilyn

7th Descent

4. Henry III, King of England, b. 1207
5. Edmund "Crouchback" of Lancaster, b. 1244
6. Prince Henry, Earl of Lancaster etc. (see #7, 3rd Descent above)


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Deloria

Re: Heirs of Catherine Grey

Legg inn av Deloria » 28 des 2006 00:40:16

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 12/27/2006 6:31:02 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
herillustriousness@gmail.com writes:

-Henry Seymour, Lord Beauchamp (1626-30 March 1654), married Mary
Capell.
-Lady Mary Seymour (1637-10 April 1673), married Heneage Finch, 3rd
Earl of Winchilsea.
-Jane Seymour (1637-23 November 1679), married Charles Boyle,
Viscount Dungarvan.

I can't find any information on any of these, merely that Lady Mary
Seymour indeed had issue, but nothing on who they are. Any help would
be greatly appreciated.


Here you go
_http://www.genealogics.org/descend.php?personID=I00007134&tree=LEO_
(http://www.genealogics.org/descend.php? ... 4&tree=LEO)

Merry Christmas

Thank you.

Gjest

Re: John de Swynford's alleged kinsman, Sir John Darcy

Legg inn av Gjest » 28 des 2006 00:41:26

I thought the document was in French therefore son means his.

On Dec 27, 6:05 pm, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 12/27/06 12:01:23 PM Pacific Standard Time,

royalances...@msn.com writes:<< The only reference I
can find in the document is to "John Darcy son Unkle" (that is, "John
Darcy his Uncle"). Thus, it would appear that John Darcy was actually
John de Swynford's uncle, not his kinsman as stated in the modern
online transcripts.

How does "son Unkle" turn into Uncle?
I would think this could be read as "son [of my] Uncle"

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Fw: Margaret Marshal, wife of John de Segrave, Knt., and

Legg inn av Gjest » 28 des 2006 02:44:02

In a message dated 12/27/06 3:44:07 PM Pacific Standard Time,
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au writes:

<< On 29 September 1397 she was created for life Duchess of Norfolk. For at
least three years (she died in 1400) she was Duchess of Norfolk, surely she
would have been referred to as such? >>

I have her as "Duchess of Norfolk DU JURE"
I also have that she died on 24 Mar 1398/9

Will

Gjest

Re: John de Swynford's alleged kinsman, Sir John Darcy

Legg inn av Gjest » 28 des 2006 02:50:03

In a message dated 12/27/06 4:40:45 PM Pacific Standard Time,
alden@mindspring.com writes:

<< My understanding is that the Sir John Darcy of Knaith, who d. 5 mar
1355/6 was born about 1305. John Darcy was born shortly after his
parent's marriage so there are no elder sisters to help out here (as
far as I know). >>


John 2nd Lord Darcy of Knath d 5 Mar 1355/6 Notton, co York after marrying at
least twice
1) Alianore de Holland who d bef 21 Nov 1341 and
2) on or abt 7 Jan 1345 (date of contract) Elizabeth, Baroness Meinill b 15
Oct 1331 Whorlton

This John, 2nd Lord was the son of
John, 1st Lord Darcy of Knath b 1270/85 who d 30 May 1347 after marrying at
least twice
1) Emmeline Heron, the mother of his heir John above and
2) Joan de Burgh "fourth daughter" of Richard, 2nd Earl of Ulster by
Margaret de Burgh. Joan d 23 Apr 1359 and had been the widow first of Thomas
FitzGerald, 2nd Earl of Kildare

At least that's what I have in my database!

Will Johnson

alden@mindspring.com

Re: John de Swynford's alleged kinsman, Sir John Darcy

Legg inn av alden@mindspring.com » 28 des 2006 03:06:53

On Dec 27, 8:47 pm, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 12/27/06 4:40:45 PM Pacific Standard Time,

a...@mindspring.com writes:<< My understanding is that the Sir John Darcy of Knaith, who d. 5 mar
1355/6 was born about 1305. John Darcy was born shortly after his
parent's marriage so there are no elder sisters to help out here (as
far as I know).

John 2nd Lord Darcy of Knath d 5 Mar 1355/6 Notton, co York after marrying at
least twice
1) Alianore de Holland who d bef 21 Nov 1341 and
2) on or abt 7 Jan 1345 (date of contract) Elizabeth, Baroness Meinill b 15
Oct 1331 Whorlton

This John, 2nd Lord was the son of
John, 1st Lord Darcy of Knath b 1270/85 who d 30 May 1347 after marrying at
least twice
1) Emmeline Heron, the mother of his heir John above and
2) Joan de Burgh "fourth daughter" of Richard, 2nd Earl of Ulster by
Margaret de Burgh. Joan d 23 Apr 1359 and had been the widow first of Thomas
FitzGerald, 2nd Earl of Kildare

At least that's what I have in my database!

Will Johnson

So we agree.

Doug Smith

Douglas Richardson

Re: Sir Edmund son of Henry, King of England, not Edmund Cro

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 28 des 2006 03:10:34

Dear Newsgroup ~

I'm not the first person, nor will I be the last, to point out that
Edmund, Earl of Lancaster (brother of King Edward I of England), was
never known as Edmund "Crouchback." This imagined deformity was purely
an invention of John of Gaunt who created this fiction in an attempt to
put his son, Henry, on the throne.

My post regarding Edmund, Earl of Lancaster was intended to be
informational only. It was not in any way intended as a personal
attack on Merilyn. I greatly appreciate Merilyn as a fellow poster.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Leo van de Pas

Re: Fw: Margaret Marshal, wife of John de Segrave, Knt., and

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 28 des 2006 04:03:20

Dear Will,
CP IX page 599.

IX 1338. 2 and 1. Margaret, suo Jure Countess of Norfolk under the
limitation in the creation of the Earldom. The footnote here is very
interesting. I do not see a reference as to when (or where) she was born

Page 600 She had already, in February 1372/3, been styled Margaret Marshal,
and in July 1377 Margaret Marshal, Countess of Norfolk, claimed to perform
the office of Marshal by deputy at the coronation of Richard II. Footnote c
The Court of Claims held that the office in fee was then in the King's
person................

On 29 September 1397, the day her grandson and heir was created Duke of
Norfolk, she was created in Parliament, in her absence, Duchess of Norfolk
for life.

She died 24 March 1398/9 .

It appears she was suo jure Countess of Norfolk since 1338, and for life
Duchess of Norfolk since 1397.

In Volume XIV I cannot find any useful information.

It seems I have relied too much on Burke's Guide and now find in CP some
dates are different.

I had that Margaret's parents married circa 1316, CP has (probably circa
1320) they had one son and two daughters.
By the son is mentioned that he was born "query circa 1320". When Thomas of
Brotherton, Margaret's father, died "Under the charter of creation the
Marshalcy (limited to heirs male of his body) reverted to the Crown.

I think (not sure) we can accept that the son Edward was the first born, and
Margaret was the elder of the two girls.
The mother, Alice Hayles, died after 8 May 1326, and Thomas seems to have
remarried circa 1328 and he died in the late summer of 1338.

ES Volume II Tafel 84 Tells Thomas and Alice married about 1316, Edward was
born ca 1319, Margaret circa 1320 no date for Alice and a fourth child,
Roger, is mentioned, he died "young". Here is mentioned that Margaret died
24 March 1400.

For ES II Tafel 84 as sources are given Gerald Paget's work on the ancestry
of the Prince of Wales (covering Tafels 77 to 96) and Cahiers de Saint Louis
volume 11 and 12 (specifically for Tafel 84) . this seems strange to me as
the Cahiers mentioned start with Isabella wife of Edward II and therefor too
late. By looking through these Cahiers, I found that on page 407 the lineage
starts with Marguerite de France, second wife of Edward I. Here is given
that Thomas and Alice married in 1316, no about is said. Alice died 8 May
1326/8. Son Edward and Margaret are born in 1319 and here there is no Roger
but Thomas and his second wife have a son John..................Here
Margaret died 24 March 1399

Gerald Paget Volume I, page 19. Here Thomas of Brotherton married Alice
circa 1316, Edward shown as Edward (de Brotherton) born circa 1319. Margaret
born circa 1320. Here thomas de Brotherton is not given a fourth child.

Here is given the inference that Thomas de Brotherton's son was born in
Brotherton as well, what about Margaret?

I think Primary Sources are needed to sort this lot out.

Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia


----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au>; <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 12:43 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: Margaret Marshal, wife of John de Segrave, Knt., and Walter
de Mauny,...


In a message dated 12/27/06 3:44:07 PM Pacific Standard Time,
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au writes:

On 29 September 1397 she was created for life Duchess of Norfolk. For
at
least three years (she died in 1400) she was Duchess of Norfolk, surely
she
would have been referred to as such?

I have her as "Duchess of Norfolk DU JURE"
I also have that she died on 24 Mar 1398/9

Will

Leo van de Pas

Re: Sir Edmund son of Henry, King of England, not Edmund Cro

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 28 des 2006 04:31:43

I am not the first nor the last one to point out that the Black Prince was
(in his lifetime) never referred to as such.
Charlemagne William the Conqueror and many more..............the same.

To add another source where he is called Edmund, Crouchback, 1st Earl of
Lancaster, is Elizabeth Hallam's "The Plantagenet Encyclopedia". On page 66
a small biography is given for him and here is mentioned that "In 1271
Edmund went on a crusade in Palestine: his nickname, Crouchback, or crossed
back, refers to his crusader's cross. Here is also mentioned the red
herring, : Henry IV (Edmund's descendant) claimed, on no strong evidence,
that Edmund had been Henry III's eldest son, disinherited because of a
hunched back. If we accept as nonsense Edmund was the first born son, can we
disregard the hunch back story as well?

And yet a better source CP Volume VII page 378. The article for Edmund
starts with :
Edmund , styled "Crouchback" ('Gibbos'--,which apparently means hump), 4th
and youngest, but 2nd surviving son of Henry III.(I have him as second son
with three more sons following, is this a CP error? Volume XIV says nothing
about page 378).

It seems genealogical literature always refers to him as Edmund Crouchback,
the question here is not the meaning of Crouchback but the word being used
or not. I doubt that in Primary Sources nicknames would be used.

Is Richardson such a purist that he wants to eliminate the use of the word
Croucback? Then in the same effort he should object to the use of the word
Plantagenet, as of all the people most of us regard as Plantagenets only one
actually referred to himself as Richard Plantagenet.

Comparing information is great as then errors can we eliminated.
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
..
----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval,soc.history.medieval
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 1:10 PM
Subject: Re: Sir Edmund son of Henry, King of England, not Edmund Crouchback


Dear Newsgroup ~

I'm not the first person, nor will I be the last, to point out that
Edmund, Earl of Lancaster (brother of King Edward I of England), was
never known as Edmund "Crouchback." This imagined deformity was purely
an invention of John of Gaunt who created this fiction in an attempt to
put his son, Henry, on the throne.

My post regarding Edmund, Earl of Lancaster was intended to be
informational only. It was not in any way intended as a personal
attack on Merilyn. I greatly appreciate Merilyn as a fellow poster.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah


-------------------------------
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quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Don Stone

Re: Fw: Margaret Marshal, wife of John de Segrave, Knt., and

Legg inn av Don Stone » 28 des 2006 04:58:09

Leo van de Pas wrote:

Dear Will,
CP IX page 599.

IX 1338. 2 and 1. Margaret, suo Jure Countess of Norfolk under the
limitation in the creation of the Earldom. The footnote here is very
interesting. I do not see a reference as to when (or where) she was born

Page 600 She had already, in February 1372/3, been styled Margaret Marshal,
and in July 1377 Margaret Marshal, Countess of Norfolk, claimed to perform
the office of Marshal by deputy at the coronation of Richard II. Footnote c
The Court of Claims held that the office in fee was then in the King's
person................

On 29 September 1397, the day her grandson and heir was created Duke of
Norfolk, she was created in Parliament, in her absence, Duchess of Norfolk
for life.

She died 24 March 1398/9 .

It appears she was suo jure Countess of Norfolk since 1338, and for life
Duchess of Norfolk since 1397.

In Volume XIV I cannot find any useful information.

It seems I have relied too much on Burke's Guide and now find in CP some
dates are different.

[snip]

I think Primary Sources are needed to sort this lot out.

Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia



I have not yet seen mentioned "Love Matches and Contracted Misery:
Thomas of Brotherton and his Daughters," part 1 of which is in the
current issue of Foundations: http://fmg.ac/FMG/Journal/02-02.htm. The
article is a detailed study whose author, Brad Verity, is well-known to
most of us.

-- Don Stone

Gjest

Re: Robert fitzmaldred

Legg inn av Gjest » 28 des 2006 05:16:02

Dear Le,
No. the 25 sureties were :
1 Robert Fitzwalter of
Dunmow
2 William de Fortibus,
Earl of Aumale
3 Richard de Clare, Earl
of Clare and Hertford
4 Gilbert de Clare (later
Earl of Clare, Hertford and Gloucester)
5 Geoffrey de Mandeville,
Earl of Gloucester
6 Saher de Quincy, Earl
of Winchester
7 Henry de Bohun, Earl of
Hereford (later also Earl of Essex)
8 Robert de Vere, Earl of
Oxford
9 Eustace de Vesci
10Richard de Percy
11Roger de Montbezon (?
Mont Begon)
12Richard de Montfichet
als Richard Gernon
13Roger le Bigod, Earl of
Norfolk
14Hugh le Bigod (later
Earl of Norfolk)
15William de Lanvallei
16 John Fitzrobert of
Warkworth
17William Malet
18William Aubeney
(d`Aubigny) of Belvoir
19Robert de Roos ` Forfan`
of Helmsley
20William de Huntingfield
21John de Lacy, Constable
of Chester (later Earl of Lincoln)
22William de Hardell,Mayor
of London
23Geoffrey de Say
24William de Mowbray
25William Marshal the
younger (later 4th Earl of Pembroke)
Sincerely,

James W Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA
source: Magna Charta Sureties 1215 (p x) by Weis, Sheppard and Beall)

Gjest

Re: OT? Gerald Ford

Legg inn av Gjest » 28 des 2006 06:53:02

Leo, you are missing ancestors behind John Manney, the husband of Elizabeth
Collins

The Ancestral File claims that the Manney family connects backwards to the
Wines family of Suffolk County, New York which then connects back to the Mapes
family of Rollesby, Norfolk which then connects back to the Southwell family of
Horsham St Faith, Norfolk

which family then connects to the Southwell, Tendering, Darcy, De Vere,
Copley, Hoo, Shelley and Belknap families.

In other words to people who were somebody ;) and probably had many royal
descents

Will Johnson

Douglas Richardson

Re: Sir Edmund son of Henry, King of England, not Edmund Cro

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 28 des 2006 08:08:59

I believe it's time to lay the hunchback story about Edmund son of King
Henry III to rest. Ditto the claim that Edmund was the first born son
of King Henry III. Both have no historic foundation.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Leo van de Pas wrote:

<Henry IV (Edmund's descendant) claimed, on no strong evidence,
< that Edmund had been Henry III's eldest son, disinherited because of
a
< hunched back. If we accept as nonsense Edmund was the first born son,
can we
< disregard the hunch back story as well?

Gjest

Re: OT? Gerald Ford

Legg inn av Gjest » 28 des 2006 09:16:02

In a message dated 12/28/2006 12:05:54 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
lmahler@att.net writes:

I have him as a descendant of Gateway Ancestors : Judith Lewis, Thomas
Lewis, Elizabeth Marshall, Adam Mott.




Ive never heard of colonist Adam Mott as having traceable medieval
ancestors,
What are your details on this?


A gateway ancestor is one who bridges from one place to another. In this
case, from England to America. So every immigrant is a gateway.
Will Johnson

Leo van de Pas

Re: OT? Gerald Ford

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 28 des 2006 10:30:50

I totally agree with you. Sadly I have not even parents for Adam Mott.

With best wishes
Leo
----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <lmahler@att.net>; <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 7:12 PM
Subject: Re: OT? Gerald Ford


In a message dated 12/28/2006 12:05:54 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
lmahler@att.net writes:

I have him as a descendant of Gateway Ancestors : Judith Lewis, Thomas
Lewis, Elizabeth Marshall, Adam Mott.



Ive never heard of colonist Adam Mott as having traceable medieval
ancestors,
What are your details on this?


A gateway ancestor is one who bridges from one place to another. In this
case, from England to America. So every immigrant is a gateway.
Will Johnson

-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Gjest

Re: Gerard of Ormskirk

Legg inn av Gjest » 29 des 2006 01:22:02

Today I've been collecting the baptisms of the Gerard family (or Gerrard or
Garard) who were baptising at Ormskirk, Lancashire.

I looked at the Visitations of Lancashire and the Gerard's of Brynne don't
seem to be these people at all, although some odd names are in common so they
are probably related.

Does anyone have an online source for Gerard's of Ormskirk in the say 1570 to
1650 range?
Thanks
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: C.P. Correction: Elizabeth le Despenser, wife of Sir Ral

Legg inn av Gjest » 29 des 2006 22:07:02

In a message dated 12/29/06 10:56:00 AM Pacific Standard Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:

<< Sir John de Camoys' wife, ?Elizabeth, was almost
certainly of baronial descent as her son, Thomas, was called "cousin"
by Sir William le Latimer, K.G., 4th Lord Latimer. The relationship
between Thomas Camoys and Lord Latimer must have been close, as Lord
Latimer bequeathed Thomas Camoys a manor in his 1381 will, and also
settled on him the reversion of various properties in Calais >>

The relationship between Thomas Camoys d 1421 and William, 4th Lord Latimer
is populated with Elizabeth's.

William's wife was an Elizabeth otherwise unidentified. William's daughter
was Elizabeth, Baroness Latimer de jure dho d 1395. This daughter married
John, 3rd Lord Neville of Raby abt 9 Oct 1381

On the other side, Thomas Camoys wife was Elizabeth Louches and her mother is
otherwise unidentified. This Elizabeth Louches was dead by 1406 since that
is the latest possible year in which Thomas Camoys took another wife Elizabeth
Mortimer d 1417 daughter of Edmund 3rd Earl of March by Philippa Countess of
Ulster suo jure

Thomas' ancestry is believed to be fairly well known and includes no close
Latimer connections.

Therefore I propose that it is possible that Elizabeth Louches, who may
certainly have been married by 1381, is an otherwise unidentified sister-in-law, or
alternatively half-sister to William, 4th Lord Latimer.

It seems chronologically possible that Elizabeth Louches and William Latimer
were half-siblings through their mother.

Alternatively it could be that Elizabeth the wife of Thomas Camoys was that
half or even full sister of William Latimer.

Comments appreciated
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: C.P. Correction: Elizabeth le Despenser, wife of Sir Ral

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 des 2006 01:00:02

In a message dated 12/29/06 3:38:41 PM Pacific Standard Time,
pedricks@ozemail.com.au writes:

<< 9. Dorothy Wrothe, b. 1528 >>

How do we know the year Dorothy Wrothe was born?
The only thing definite I know about her is that she must have married
sometime between 1535 and 1541

Thanks
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: C.P. Correction: Elizabeth le Despenser, wife of Sir Ral

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 des 2006 01:01:02

In a message dated 12/29/06 3:38:41 PM Pacific Standard Time,
pedricks@ozemail.com.au writes:

<< 4. Richard de Camoys, d. 1421 >>

His death year is also given as 1416
http://users.qconline.com/~kemmy/book/kemmis04.html

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: C.P. Correction: Elizabeth le Despenser, wife of Sir Ral

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 des 2006 01:09:02

In a message dated 12/29/06 3:38:41 PM Pacific Standard Time,
pedricks@ozemail.com.au writes:

<< 1. Sir Ralph de Camoys, m. 1319
2. Sir John de Camoys >>


And by this marriage date, which must apply to Ralph's second wife you are
implying that John Baron Camoys of Bekerton was a son of Elizabeth le Despencer.
This is not certain in my mind. I see no problem in making him a son by the
prior wife Margaret de Braose.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: C.P. Correction: Elizabeth le Despenser, wife of Sir Ral

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 des 2006 01:12:02

In a message dated 12/29/06 3:38:41 PM Pacific Standard Time,
pedricks@ozemail.com.au writes:

<< 3. Sir Thomas de Camoys, b. 1351 >>

Sir Thomas is not known to have been born in 1351
What we know is that he was an adult by 1378
We also know his father was "aged 40 at IPM taken 30 Sep 1360" although I
don't personally believe that age is old enough, but perhaps rounded down.

If his mother is Margaret Foliot than we also know that she was "aged 14 in
1329"

We know that Sir Thomas was older than his brother John, since Thomas
inherited the Camoys title and John had to be born before Margaret died.

If Margaret Foliot is not the mother of these two boys then the chronology
gets shifted north even more in that Margaret is living in 1346 so Thomas could
not be born prior to this year. On the other end to be an adult by 1378 he
must have been born by 1357.

So giving him a specific birthyear makes it seem like we know that and I
don't think we do.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: C.P. Correction: Elizabeth le Despenser, wife of Sir Ral

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 des 2006 02:31:02

Dear Will, Leo, and Merilyn,
Dorothy Wroth`s mother Jane Hawte
was according to Walter G Davis in his " Ancestry of Mary Isaac, wife of Thomas
Appleton (p 177) was born circa 1486 and married 1st after 1502 Thomas
Goodere /Goodyear, married 2nd Robert Wroth will May 5, 1525 proved May 26, 1536
wife Jane and John Coningsby, Esq. were co- executors brother-in-law Sir William
Hawte, kt. and John Cooke, Gent.were witnesses. 4 sons, Thomas, John,
William and Oliver, his ward Edward Lewknor was to marry his daughter Dorothy else
if either of them does not agree Dorothy shall recieve all monies due Robert
Wroth`s executors (? from Lewknor`s estate).
Sincerely,

James W Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA

Bob Turcott

RE: Turcott(e)

Legg inn av Bob Turcott » 30 des 2006 03:02:05

From: Bob Turcott <bobturcott@msn.com>
To: carmi47@msn.com, GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: RE: Turcott(e)
Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2006 1:59 AM
John,



I have found a variant coat of arms for Turcaud, it is believed at this
point Turcot would be a varaint, however the name a legendary ancestor of
the counts of Anjou was known as
Torquatus it is possible that Torquatus is Some form of these names Turcaud
& finally Turcot might have been.

I wounder if Counts of anjou had similar arms to those shown below for
Turcaud?


Turcaud, family from Guyenne
" Vert, a greyhound rampant Argent, with a collar Gules, the ring Gold."

Turcaud, family from Bordelais (Which is the Bordeaux region, in Guyenne)
" Argent, a female greyhound rampant Gules, or Sable " (taken from the
Armorial général de 1696).






--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "John Parsons"

Subject: Turcott(e)
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 10:09:29 -0500
As Mr Turcott's ancestors were French it is worth noting that the form
Turcotte is common in Quebec today. Given the Maine-et-Loire location, a
legendary ancestor of the counts of Anjou was known as Torquatus. Some
form of that name might have lingered in that region.

Regards

John P.




_________________________________________________________________
Experience the magic of the holidays. Talk to Santa on Messenger.
http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwme008 ... cale=en-us

Merilyn Pedrick

Re: C.P. Correction: Elizabeth le Despenser, wife of Sir Ral

Legg inn av Merilyn Pedrick » 30 des 2006 03:30:03

Dear Will
I came across Dorothy's dates from Genealogics. I've got "abt. 1528" for
her birth and "bef. 1542" for her marriage.
Merilyn



-------Original Message-------

From: WJhonson@aol.com
Date: 12/30/06 10:28:07
To: pedricks@ozemail.com.au; gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: C.P. Correction: Elizabeth le Despenser, wife of Sir Ralph de
Camoys, Lor...

In a message dated 12/29/06 3:38:41 PM Pacific Standard Time,
pedricks@ozemail.com.au writes:

<< 9. Dorothy Wrothe, b. 1528 >>

How do we know the year Dorothy Wrothe was born?
The only thing definite I know about her is that she must have married
sometime between 1535 and 1541

Thanks
Will Johnson

Merilyn Pedrick

Re: C.P. Correction: Elizabeth le Despenser, wife of Sir Ral

Legg inn av Merilyn Pedrick » 30 des 2006 03:33:02

Again, Genealogics. "Bef. 1421"
Merilyn




-------Original Message-------

From: WJhonson@aol.com
Date: 12/30/06 10:30:13
To: pedricks@ozemail.com.au; gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: C.P. Correction: Elizabeth le Despenser, wife of Sir Ralph de
Camoys, Lor...

In a message dated 12/29/06 3:38:41 PM Pacific Standard Time,
pedricks@ozemail.com.au writes:

<< 4. Richard de Camoys, d. 1421 >>

His death year is also given as 1416
http://users.qconline.com/~kemmy/book/kemmis04.html

Will Johnson

Leo van de Pas

Re: C.P. Correction: Elizabeth le Despenser, wife of Sir Ral

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 30 des 2006 03:52:30

Dear Will,

Thanks for asking this, as it makes me sit up to see where did the
information come from.

Richard died before his father. Burke's Peerage 1938 page 478 is a bit
confusing.
The entry for his father ends with : he died 28 March 1419, but in the
biographical details it has that the father received summonses to Parliament
as a baron from 20 August 1383 (7 Richard II) to 26 February 1420-1 (8 Henry
V).


CP II Page 508 gives the father died 28 March 1421. Which makes that the son
did die "before 1421" and 1416 sounds pretty good to me.

On this page also is given that the son Richard was by the first wife of
Thomas, Elizabeth Louches.

With best wishes
Leo van de Pas



----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <pedricks@ozemail.com.au>; <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2006 11:00 AM
Subject: Re: C.P. Correction: Elizabeth le Despenser,wife of Sir Ralph de
Camoys, Lor...


In a message dated 12/29/06 3:38:41 PM Pacific Standard Time,
pedricks@ozemail.com.au writes:

4. Richard de Camoys, d. 1421

His death year is also given as 1416
http://users.qconline.com/~kemmy/book/kemmis04.html

Will Johnson

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Merilyn Pedrick

Re: C.P. Correction: Elizabeth le Despenser, wife of Sir Ral

Legg inn av Merilyn Pedrick » 30 des 2006 03:59:02

Thankyou again for this helpful information.
Jim Weber's site has "bef. 1351" for his birth. He also has this Sir Thomas
as the father of Eleanor de Camoys, with Elizabeth de Mortimer as her mother
whereas Genealogics has Eleanor's parents as Sir Richard Camoys and Joan
Poynings.
I don't have Margaret Foliot as Sir Thomas de Camoys' mother, I have
Elizabeth" (as per Genealogics) and Sir John de Camoys.
Merilyn

-------Original Message-------

From: WJhonson@aol.com
Date: 12/30/06 10:34:29
To: pedricks@ozemail.com.au; gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: C.P. Correction: Elizabeth le Despenser, wife of Sir Ralph de
Camoys, Lor...

In a message dated 12/29/06 3:38:41 PM Pacific Standard Time,
pedricks@ozemail.com.au writes:

<< 3. Sir Thomas de Camoys, b. 1351 >>

Sir Thomas is not known to have been born in 1351
What we know is that he was an adult by 1378
We also know his father was "aged 40 at IPM taken 30 Sep 1360" although I
don't personally believe that age is old enough, but perhaps rounded down.

If his mother is Margaret Foliot than we also know that she was "aged 14 in
1329"

We know that Sir Thomas was older than his brother John, since Thomas
inherited the Camoys title and John had to be born before Margaret died.

If Margaret Foliot is not the mother of these two boys then the chronology
gets shifted north even more in that Margaret is living in 1346 so Thomas
could
not be born prior to this year. On the other end to be an adult by 1378 he
must have been born by 1357.

So giving him a specific birthyear makes it seem like we know that and I
don't think we do.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: C.P. Correction: Elizabeth le Despenser, wife of Sir Ral

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 des 2006 04:00:03

Thank you for those details on the will of Robert Wroth.

Does your source state *why* they have placed Jane Hawte's first marriage to
Thomas Goodyear as "aft 1502" ?

Thanks
Will Johnson

Merilyn Pedrick

Re: C.P. Correction: Elizabeth le Despenser, wife of Sir Ral

Legg inn av Merilyn Pedrick » 30 des 2006 04:07:05

Both Genealogics and Jim Weber have "bef. 1319" for Sir Ralph's marriage,
and both have Elizabeth Rogate as John de Camoys' mother.
Merilyn




-------Original Message-------

From: WJhonson@aol.com
Date: 12/30/06 10:36:39
To: pedricks@ozemail.com.au; gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: C.P. Correction: Elizabeth le Despenser, wife of Sir Ralph de
Camoys, Lor...

In a message dated 12/29/06 3:38:41 PM Pacific Standard Time,
pedricks@ozemail.com.au writes:

<< 1. Sir Ralph de Camoys, m. 1319
2. Sir John de Camoys >>


And by this marriage date, which must apply to Ralph's second wife you are
implying that John Baron Camoys of Bekerton was a son of Elizabeth le
Despencer.
This is not certain in my mind. I see no problem in making him a son by
the
prior wife Margaret de Braose.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: C.P. Correction: Elizabeth le Despenser, wife of Sir Ral

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 des 2006 04:10:01

In a message dated 12/29/06 6:58:43 PM Pacific Standard Time,
pedricks@ozemail.com.au writes:

<< Jim Weber's site has "bef. 1351" for his birth. He also has this Sir
Thomas
as the father of Eleanor de Camoys, with Elizabeth de Mortimer as her mother
whereas Genealogics has Eleanor's parents as Sir Richard Camoys and Joan
Poynings.

I don't have Margaret Foliot as Sir Thomas de Camoys' mother, I have
Elizabeth" (as per Genealogics) and Sir John de Camoys. >>

The placement is problematic for the reasons already cited. If Jim Weber is
not citing his *reason* for "Bef 1351" then "Bef 1351" has to be tossed out
and a review done again.

I don't know what the reasoning is for making Eleanor de Camoys a daughter of
Elizabeth de Mortimer, but "Living Descendents", "Campbell" (op. cit.) has
her as a daughter of Joan Poynings by Sir Richard Camoys without citing an
authority on this particular couple.

Their authority for the grandparents is CP VI 124-5 and their authority for
the grandchildren is Harleian Soc Vol 17 p 374 ("re Robert Wroth d 1536 m Joan
Hawte Goodere")

Again the authority on which wife of John's was mother of Thomas has to hinge
on a chronologic or legal (land) argument from the sources. That argument
should be present before a simple answer can be believed in a case like this,
which the sources conflict.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: C.P. Correction: Elizabeth le Despenser, wife of Sir Ral

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 des 2006 04:11:02

In a message dated 12/29/06 7:06:54 PM Pacific Standard Time,
pedricks@ozemail.com.au writes:

<< Both Genealogics and Jim Weber have "bef. 1319" for Sir Ralph's marriage,
and both have Elizabeth Rogate as John de Camoys' mother.
Merilyn >>

Neither Genealogics nor Jim Weber are authorities-in-their-own-right.
They are guidelines perhaps. I do trust Leo more than Jim to get things
accurate and up-to-date. In a case where their is conflict and potential for
error you have to cite also *their* underlying authorities.

Will Johnson

Leo van de Pas

Re: C.P. Correction: Elizabeth le Despenser, wife of Sir Ral

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 30 des 2006 04:16:29

Dear Merilyn,

Sir Thomas's entry in CP II page 507 may give some explanations.

Sir Thomas de Camoys, nephew, or more probably half-nephew, being son and
heir of Sir John de Camoys, a son of Sir Ralph de Camoys by his second wife
, Elizabeth (see footnote j). He succeeded to the family estates.....etc.

Footnote j : Feet of Fines, Sussex, 11 Edward III, Cal. of Charter Rolls,
vol iii, p.493. Sir John had married Margaret, sister and coheir of Richard
Foliot, but it is very doubtful whether she was the mother of Thomas, as
the whole of the Foliot inheritance seems to have passed to her sister
Margery, who married Sir Hugh Hastings.

The above sounds vague as nothing seems certain. Good thing there is volume
XIV, Page 138 has corrections for the Camoys family. It gives note j line 2
after Richard add "3rd Lord Foliot, she d.s.p." lines 2-4 delete from
'but' to Hastings.

Hope this helps.
Leo

----- Original Message -----
From: "Merilyn Pedrick" <pedricks@ozemail.com.au>
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>; <WJhonson@aol.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2006 1:58 PM
Subject: Re: C.P. Correction: Elizabeth le Despenser,wife of Sir Ralph de
Camoys, Lor...


Thankyou again for this helpful information.
Jim Weber's site has "bef. 1351" for his birth. He also has this Sir
Thomas
as the father of Eleanor de Camoys, with Elizabeth de Mortimer as her
mother
whereas Genealogics has Eleanor's parents as Sir Richard Camoys and Joan
Poynings.
I don't have Margaret Foliot as Sir Thomas de Camoys' mother, I have
Elizabeth" (as per Genealogics) and Sir John de Camoys.
Merilyn

-------Original Message-------

From: WJhonson@aol.com
Date: 12/30/06 10:34:29
To: pedricks@ozemail.com.au; gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: C.P. Correction: Elizabeth le Despenser, wife of Sir Ralph de
Camoys, Lor...

In a message dated 12/29/06 3:38:41 PM Pacific Standard Time,
pedricks@ozemail.com.au writes:

3. Sir Thomas de Camoys, b. 1351

Sir Thomas is not known to have been born in 1351
What we know is that he was an adult by 1378
We also know his father was "aged 40 at IPM taken 30 Sep 1360" although I
don't personally believe that age is old enough, but perhaps rounded down.

If his mother is Margaret Foliot than we also know that she was "aged 14
in
1329"

We know that Sir Thomas was older than his brother John, since Thomas
inherited the Camoys title and John had to be born before Margaret died.

If Margaret Foliot is not the mother of these two boys then the chronology
gets shifted north even more in that Margaret is living in 1346 so Thomas
could
not be born prior to this year. On the other end to be an adult by 1378
he
must have been born by 1357.

So giving him a specific birthyear makes it seem like we know that and I
don't think we do.

Will Johnson

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Leo van de Pas

Re: C.P. Correction: Elizabeth le Despenser, wife of Sir Ral

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 30 des 2006 04:37:23

----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2006 2:08 PM
Subject: Re: C.P. Correction: Elizabeth le Despenser,wife of Sir Ralph de
Camoys, Lor...


In a message dated 12/29/06 6:58:43 PM Pacific Standard Time,
pedricks@ozemail.com.au writes:

Jim Weber's site has "bef. 1351" for his birth. He also has this Sir
Thomas
as the father of Eleanor de Camoys, with Elizabeth de Mortimer as her
mother
whereas Genealogics has Eleanor's parents as Sir Richard Camoys and Joan
Poynings.

I don't have Margaret Foliot as Sir Thomas de Camoys' mother, I have
Elizabeth" (as per Genealogics) and Sir John de Camoys.

The placement is problematic for the reasons already cited. If Jim Weber
is
not citing his *reason* for "Bef 1351" then "Bef 1351" has to be tossed
out
and a review done again.
---------------------CP Vol II page 507..................

We should go to the other Sir Thomas Camoys, who d.s.p.s., 11 April 1372,
his son Ralph , having predeceased him. A Sussex jury found that certain
lands in that county should pass, under an entail, to Thomas, son and heir
of Sir John Camoys, but they could not say who was the heir of the deceased.
Their uncertainty on this point suggest that the inheritor of the property
was related to him by the half blood only.

Now back to 'our' Thomas, He succeeded to the family estates in 1372. In
1383 he, as a banneret, obtained exemption..etc.
It is a pity that we have no marriage dates for him. It serves no purpose to
look at his second wife (born 1371) Elizabeth Mortimer's first husband died
21 July 1403, and so the second marriage took place afterwards but that does
not give any indication as to when Thomas Camoys was born.

An indication (a bad one) is that the grandfather married before 1319
Elizabeth, probably a daughter or sister of William de Rogate. Would this
indicate that their son John (our Thomas's father) was born about 1319/1320?
Then it sounds probable that our Thomas was born "before 1351" taking into
account his father must have been dead in 1372 when Thomas (and not his
father) inherited.

Leo

Leo van de Pas

Re: C.P. Correction: Elizabeth le Despenser, wife of Sir Ral

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 30 des 2006 04:40:39

Totally agree. In principle I have sources for everything, however,
sometimes sources are not authoritive enough for me and then the source is
recorded but not visible on genealogics. This is why I appreciate it when
people query details as often it helps a great deal to go over information
to see where it came from. It keeps me on my toes as well.
Leo
----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2006 2:09 PM
Subject: Re: C.P. Correction: Elizabeth le Despenser,wife of Sir Ralph de
Camoys, Lor...


In a message dated 12/29/06 7:06:54 PM Pacific Standard Time,
pedricks@ozemail.com.au writes:

Both Genealogics and Jim Weber have "bef. 1319" for Sir Ralph's
marriage,
and both have Elizabeth Rogate as John de Camoys' mother.
Merilyn

Neither Genealogics nor Jim Weber are authorities-in-their-own-right.
They are guidelines perhaps. I do trust Leo more than Jim to get things
accurate and up-to-date. In a case where their is conflict and potential
for
error you have to cite also *their* underlying authorities.

Will Johnson

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Gjest

Re: C.P. Correction: Elizabeth le Despenser, wife of Sir Ral

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 des 2006 05:16:02

In a message dated 12/29/06 7:37:56 PM Pacific Standard Time,
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au writes:

<< An indication (a bad one) is that the grandfather married before 1319
Elizabeth, probably a daughter or sister of William de Rogate. Would this
indicate that their son John (our Thomas's father) was born about 1319/1320?
Then it sounds probable that our Thomas was born "before 1351" taking into
account his father must have been dead in 1372 when Thomas (and not his
father) inherited. >>


If you are here speaking about Sir Ralph de Camoys he is said to have married
"abt 1316" to
Elizabeth le Despencer
see http://users.qconline.com/~kemmy/book/kemmis04.html

But John as son of any of these wives needs corroboration from some sort of
primary documentation.

Gjest

Re: C.P. Correction: Elizabeth le Despenser, wife of Sir Ral

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 des 2006 05:17:02

In a message dated 12/29/06 7:27:20 PM Pacific Standard Time,
pedricks@ozemail.com.au writes:

<< Exactly. I know that if I was a good and proper genealogist I would go to
the original sources, but since I don't, I rely on people I trust to be
reliable. >>

What do you do Marilyn where the sources conflict with each other?

Merilyn Pedrick

Re: C.P. Correction: Elizabeth le Despenser, wife of Sir Ral

Legg inn av Merilyn Pedrick » 30 des 2006 05:18:01

Exactly. I know that if I was a good and proper genealogist I would go to
the original sources, but since I don't, I rely on people I trust to be
reliable.
Best wishes
Merilyn




-------Original Message-------

From: WJhonson@aol.com
Date: 12/30/06 13:40:18
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: C.P. Correction: Elizabeth le Despenser,wife of Sir Ralph de
Camoys, Lor...

In a message dated 12/29/06 7:06:54 PM Pacific Standard Time,
pedricks@ozemail.com.au writes:

<< Both Genealogics and Jim Weber have "bef. 1319" for Sir Ralph's marriage,
and both have Elizabeth Rogate as John de Camoys' mother.
Merilyn >>

Neither Genealogics nor Jim Weber are authorities-in-their-own-right.
They are guidelines perhaps. I do trust Leo more than Jim to get things
accurate and up-to-date. In a case where their is conflict and potential
for
error you have to cite also *their* underlying authorities.

Will Johnson

-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Merilyn Pedrick

Re: C.P. Correction: Elizabeth le Despenser, wife of Sir Ral

Legg inn av Merilyn Pedrick » 30 des 2006 05:18:32

Dear Leo
As you can see, I have drawn very heavily on Genealogics for the information
I have in my database, for which many thanks. James Cummings has drawn our
attention to Dorothy's father as being Robert Wrothe, quoting from Walter G.
Davis's book.
As for Elizabeth Lewknor Peckham, I don't have the Peckham. Where does that
come from? A clue might be a quote in Jim Weber's entry for Thomas Lewknor,
where he says... " Bayley goes on to say that Thomas Lewknor's third wife
was Catherine Pelham, but on my copy he has realised his mistake and crossed
it out. In his handwriting he has added "this relates to his grandson" and
his third wife was Elizabeth Echingham" . Pelham might have looked like
Peckham?
How many James Cudworth descendants would you like? I have hundreds
probably, which you are very welcome to!
Merilyn




-------Original Message-------

From: Leo van de Pas
Date: 12/30/06 11:20:28
To: Merilyn Pedrick; gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: C.P. Correction: Elizabeth le Despenser,wife of Sir Ralph de
Camoys, Lord Camoys

Dear Merilyn,

I had te line you show in my system-----except I had nr.9 Dorothy Wrothe not
connected to her parents.

If nr.8 Robert Wrothe is your ancestor then you are a very distant cousin of
Brice Clagett, John Steele Gordon, the second wife of Irving Berlin and Vice
Admiral Herbert D. Riley.

Have you ever seen "Living Descendants of Blood Royal" by Count
d'Angerville, volume III? There are portraits of the Vice-Admiral and his
daughter. This book tells that the Vice-Admiral is a descendant of
Charlemagne and Edward III. I am sure you are aware of this line, but there
are two aspects I wonder about..

Eleanor Camoys born 1408 (you have 1410) her daughter is shown as Elizabeth
Lewknor Peckham. Where would the Peckham part come from? Her father is
clearly marked in this book as Sir Roger Lewknor.

According to this book the Admiral is in the 22nd generation in line of
descent of Edward III and in the 31st generation from Charlemagne------I
haven't counted But the link to Edward III stands and falls on Sir Richard
Camoys (who died before his father). In this book this Sir Richard is shown
as a son by his father's second wife (Elizabeth Mortimer, giving the line
to Edward III) but I understand he is by the first wife which takes away the
line to Edward III but there is still a line for the Vice-Admiral to
Charlemagne.

For James Cudworth I have no descendants in my system, but I have some 3,129
ancestors.

With best wishes
Leo van de Pas

----- Original Message -----
From: "Merilyn Pedrick" <pedricks@ozemail.com.au>
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2006 10:37 AM
Subject: Re: C.P. Correction: Elizabeth le Despenser,wife of Sir Ralph de
Camoys, Lord Camoys


Dear Douglas
Thankyou for that interesting conjecture about the wife of Sir Ralph de
Camoys.
Once again, poor ol' James Cudworth has missed your list of colonial
descendants.
As far as my database goes, he is the 9th great grandson of this Sir
Ralph,
as follows:
1. Sir Ralph de Camoys, m. 1319
2. Sir John de Camoys
3. Sir Thomas de Camoys, b. 1351
4. Richard de Camoys, d. 1421
5. Eleanor de Camoys, b. 1410
6. Elizabeth Lewknor, m. 1456
7. John Wrothe, b. 1457
8. Robert Wrothe
9. Dorothy Wrothe, b. 1528
10. Mary Lewknor, m 1568
11. Mary Machell, b. 1574
12. James Cudworth, b. 1604
Best wishes
Merilyn Pedrick




-------Original Message-------

From: Douglas Richardson
Date: 12/30/06 06:15:53
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: C.P. Correction: Elizabeth le Despenser,wife of Sir Ralph de
Camoys, Lord Camoys

Dear Newsgroup ~

For interest's sake, the following is a list of the 17th Century New
World colonists who descend from Elizabeth le Despenser and her
husband, Sir Ralph de Camoys, Lord Camoys:

Samuel Argall, Charles Barham, Joseph Bickley, William Bladen, Charles
& Leonard Calvert, St. Leger Codd, Henry Filmer, Henry Fleete, Warham
Horsmanden, Anne Lovelace, Katherine Saint Leger, Rose Stoughton,
Samuel & William Torrey.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah


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-------------------------------
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Merilyn Pedrick

Re: C.P. Correction: Elizabeth le Despenser, wife of Sir Ral

Legg inn av Merilyn Pedrick » 30 des 2006 05:19:02

Dear James
Thankyou for this. I already had a copy in Dorothy's notes from a post you
made on the same subject 22nd September '05.
Merilyn


-------Original Message-------

From: Jwc1870@aol.com
Date: 12/30/06 11:55:57
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL@rootsweb.com
Cc: Jwc1870@AOL..com
Subject: Re: C.P. Correction: Elizabeth le Despenser,wife of Sir Ralph de
Camoys, Lor...

Dear Will, Leo, and Merilyn,
Dorothy Wroth`s mother Jane Hawte
was according to Walter G Davis in his " Ancestry of Mary Isaac, wife of
Thomas
Appleton (p 177) was born circa 1486 and married 1st after 1502 Thomas
Goodere /Goodyear, married 2nd Robert Wroth will May 5, 1525 proved May 26,
1536
wife Jane and John Coningsby, Esq. were co- executors brother-in-law Sir
William
Hawte, kt. and John Cooke, Gent.were witnesses. 4 sons, Thomas, John,
William and Oliver, his ward Edward Lewknor was to marry his daughter
Dorothy else
if either of them does not agree Dorothy shall recieve all monies due Robert
Wroth`s executors (? from Lewknor`s estate).
Sincerely,

James W Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA

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Gjest

Re: C.P. Correction: Elizabeth le Despenser, wife of Sir Ral

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 des 2006 05:21:02

In a message dated 12/29/06 7:37:56 PM Pacific Standard Time,
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au writes:

<< Now back to 'our' Thomas, He succeeded to the family estates in 1372. In
1383 he, as a banneret, obtained exemption..etc. >>

I believe that Douglas was addressing this issue of "succeeded to" when he
mentioned that Thomas being "of age" in 1372 is suspect.

He was found heir to his uncle, cousin, or whatever the relationship was, of
Sir Thomas Camoys who died in or about 1372. As Douglas pointed out, this
living Thomas' age is not specified in that IPM and perhaps it's been assumed
that he was "of age" and therefore you get "b BEF 1351"

But that's a line of conjecture based on the presumption that he was of age
when he was found heir. To counterbalance the claim, you'd have to find other
cases where a person is "found heir", is known to be underage, but that detail
is not specified in the IPM. And then of course, for a control, IPMs where
that circumstance is clearly specified.

I believe the question Douglas raised could be phrased "do all IPMS which
find heir necessarily have to specify the age or nonage of that heir? Or at least
do they have to specify that the heir was nonage?" If they do then Thomas
must have been of age, but if they don't then we cannot answer the question of
how old Thomas was.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: C.P. Correction: Elizabeth le Despenser, wife of Sir Ral

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 des 2006 05:22:02

Dear Will,
Oops. I should have noted that Davis in "Mary Isaac" also on
p 177 says that Jane Hawte was left a legacy in the June 5, 1502 will of her
God Father, John Digges of Barham. So Jane was married to Thomas Goodere
sometime after that date.
Sincerely,

James W Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA

Leo van de Pas

Re: C.P. Correction: Elizabeth le Despenser, wife of Sir Ral

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 30 des 2006 05:24:49

My source is CP, where does that website base its details on?

I understand that Sir Ralph (died 1336) married (1) Margaret Braose (2)
Elizabeth
CP _guesses_ she is a Rogate. I did not see where the le Despencer
possibility emerged from.

CP clearly indicates that John is a brother of Sir Thomas, and most likely a
half-brother as I quoted before.
Leo

----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2006 2:59 PM
Subject: Re: C.P. Correction: Elizabeth le Despenser,wife of Sir Ralph de
Camoys, Lor...


In a message dated 12/29/06 7:37:56 PM Pacific Standard Time,
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au writes:

An indication (a bad one) is that the grandfather married before 1319
Elizabeth, probably a daughter or sister of William de Rogate. Would this
indicate that their son John (our Thomas's father) was born about
1319/1320?
Then it sounds probable that our Thomas was born "before 1351" taking into
account his father must have been dead in 1372 when Thomas (and not his
father) inherited.


If you are here speaking about Sir Ralph de Camoys he is said to have
married
"abt 1316" to
Elizabeth le Despencer
see http://users.qconline.com/~kemmy/book/kemmis04.html

But John as son of any of these wives needs corroboration from some sort
of
primary documentation.

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Leo van de Pas

Re: C.P. Correction: Elizabeth le Despenser, wife of Sir Ral

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 30 des 2006 05:30:12

I purposely repeated the banneret bit in 1383, as this might imply that it
was at this time he was of age. Succeed and inherit, seem two different
things. Inherit sounds to me coming in possession, where as succeed, to me,
sounds that he started to manage the properties which should indicate that
in 1372 he was of age.

I think we should accept that the father of this Thomas was Ralph's son by
his second wife Elizabeth and that there was no third marriage for Ralph.
What the origins of this Elizabeth are, I don't know. Douglas Richardson may
well have it correctly.
Leo

----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2006 3:05 PM
Subject: Re: C.P. Correction: Elizabeth le Despenser,wife of Sir Ralph de
Camoys, Lor...


In a message dated 12/29/06 7:37:56 PM Pacific Standard Time,
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au writes:

Now back to 'our' Thomas, He succeeded to the family estates in 1372.
In
1383 he, as a banneret, obtained exemption..etc.

I believe that Douglas was addressing this issue of "succeeded to" when he
mentioned that Thomas being "of age" in 1372 is suspect.

He was found heir to his uncle, cousin, or whatever the relationship was,
of
Sir Thomas Camoys who died in or about 1372. As Douglas pointed out, this
living Thomas' age is not specified in that IPM and perhaps it's been
assumed
that he was "of age" and therefore you get "b BEF 1351"

But that's a line of conjecture based on the presumption that he was of
age
when he was found heir. To counterbalance the claim, you'd have to find
other
cases where a person is "found heir", is known to be underage, but that
detail
is not specified in the IPM. And then of course, for a control, IPMs
where
that circumstance is clearly specified.

I believe the question Douglas raised could be phrased "do all IPMS which
find heir necessarily have to specify the age or nonage of that heir? Or
at least
do they have to specify that the heir was nonage?" If they do then Thomas
must have been of age, but if they don't then we cannot answer the
question of
how old Thomas was.

Will Johnson

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Gjest

Re: C.P. Correction: Elizabeth le Despenser, wife of Sir Ral

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 des 2006 06:06:02

Although the website
http://users.qconline.com/~kemmy/book/kemmis04.html
does not readily state its sources, it is writen in a way that makes one feel
that it has been researched in a scholarly manner. There are points at which
it makes its underlying source clear, and other points where it doesn't.

It a guideline. Two points on that site that made me sit up, in regards to
dating Thomas Lord Camoys birth, aside from Douglas' point.

1) "In 1374 he obtained a license to hold a weekly market in Broadwater...."
2) "[He] commanded the left wing of the army at Agincourt 24 Oct 1415"

These two statements taken with what else we know greatly limit the possible
birthrange of Thomas.

I cannot believe that a man who was leading a wing of an army would be older
than say 70
On the other hand, the 1372 inheritence aside, his obtaining a license for a
market in 1374 does suggest that he was of age at that time.

So his birthrange would be 1345 - 1353

Comments appreciated
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: C.P. Correction: Elizabeth le Despenser, wife of Sir Ral

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 des 2006 06:26:02

There is one issue which stands in the way of making Sir Thomas de Camoys who
dsps 11 Apr 1372 into a half-sibling of John Baron Camoys of Bekerton

That is that
http://users.qconline.com/~kemmy/book/k ... tml#ralph4
states that "...there are many similar enrollments of debt due by and to
Ralph de Camoys, and from 1328, by him and his son Thomas jointly"

So not only was Thomas born by 1328, but he was the heir, and so as we know,
he must have been born before John who was born 1315/6.

Then one way to allow the IPM to be confused about the heir is to suggest an
earlier wife for Sir Ralph de Camoys, preceding Margaret Braose, thus still
allowing Thomas and John to be half-siblings. We know that he had married
Margaret in or before 1303 because in that year, his mother in law Lady Mary de
Braose enfeoffed him and his wife in Bokham Parva (op.cit.)

Will Johnson

Merilyn Pedrick

Re: C.P. Correction: Elizabeth le Despenser, wife of Sir Ral

Legg inn av Merilyn Pedrick » 30 des 2006 06:31:02

Probably hold fire and wait to see what the consensus is!




-------Original Message-------

From: WJhonson@aol.com
Date: 12/30/06 14:04:04
To: pedricks@ozemail.com.au; gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: C.P. Correction: Elizabeth le Despenser,wife of Sir Ralph de
Camoys, Lor...

In a message dated 12/29/06 7:27:20 PM Pacific Standard Time,
pedricks@ozemail.com.au writes:

<< Exactly. I know that if I was a good and proper genealogist I would go
to
the original sources, but since I don't, I rely on people I trust to be
reliable. >>

What do you do Marilyn where the sources conflict with each other?

Gjest

Re: C.P. Correction: Elizabeth le Despenser, wife of Sir Ral

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 des 2006 06:36:01

I cannot figure out this entry
"http://users.qconline.com/~kemmy/book/kemmis03.html#ralph4
In 1324, the Manor of Cokeham in Sumpting, (38) Sussex, and the advowson of
the hospital of St. Anthony annexed thereto, were settled by fine upon Ralph
and his wife Elizabeth for life, and on their son Ralph for life, remainder to
their grandson John, and on failure of his issue to his sisters Margaret and
Isabella and their heirs in succession, remainder to the right heirs of Ralph."

How can Ralph, by his second wife Elizabeth already have a grandson by her ?
The above definitely says "their grandson" not "his grandson"
Will Johnson

Leo van de Pas

Re: C.P. Correction: Elizabeth le Despenser, wife of Sir Ral

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 30 des 2006 06:46:05

Dear Will,

There is a puzzle in this, ------upon Ralph and his wife Elizabeth, and
their son Ralph.
Am I confused? I cannot find a father and son both Ralph.
Leo
----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2006 4:32 PM
Subject: Re: C.P. Correction: Elizabeth le Despenser,wife of Sir Ralph de
Camoys, Lor...


I cannot figure out this entry
"http://users.qconline.com/~kemmy/book/kemmis03.html#ralph4
In 1324, the Manor of Cokeham in Sumpting, (38) Sussex, and the advowson
of
the hospital of St. Anthony annexed thereto, were settled by fine upon
Ralph
and his wife Elizabeth for life, and on their son Ralph for life,
remainder to
their grandson John, and on failure of his issue to his sisters Margaret
and
Isabella and their heirs in succession, remainder to the right heirs of
Ralph."

How can Ralph, by his second wife Elizabeth already have a grandson by her
?
The above definitely says "their grandson" not "his grandson"
Will Johnson

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Gjest

Re: C.P. Correction: Elizabeth le Despenser, wife of Sir Ral

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 des 2006 07:21:02

In a message dated 12/29/06 9:46:45 PM Pacific Standard Time,
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au writes:

<< There is a puzzle in this, ------upon Ralph and his wife Elizabeth, and
their son Ralph.
Am I confused? I cannot find a father and son both Ralph. >>

The only possible interpretation, preserving the rest of the family intact,
in my view is that it must be
Sir Ralph de Camoys by his wife Elizabeth le Despencer had a son
Ralph de Camoys who was born by 1324

The problem then is the grandson John.
If we could change "their grandson John" into "his [Ralph's] grandson John"
then we could allow this to be
John de Camoys [later] of Linford, Norfolk

but that doesn't work either since he wasn't born by 1324, in fact his
father himself was still a boy

Even if we suppose that there was an otherwise unknown John, son of the heir
Thomas we still have to push back several other people to make it fit
chronologically.

Finally it's possible this website is mistaken in citing the document as
coming in 1324.
I'm leaning toward that last possibility as I've already narrowed Elizabeth
le Despencer's birthrange to within a few years, and I really don't want to add
another three children to Thomas (d 1372) who had themselves to be born BY
1324. That seems almost impossible at this point.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: C.P. Correction: Elizabeth le Despenser, wife of Sir Ral

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 des 2006 07:26:02

By the way, since I dropped one shoe.
The other shoe is
IF Elizabeth le Despencer is the daughter of
Hugh le Despencer, Earl of Winchester by his wife Alianor de Clare
who are known to not yet be married 14 Jun 1306

and, if we are to believe the 1324 dates for the first mentions of THEIR sons
Ralph (the elder) and Hugh (the younger) then

Elizabeth le Despencer has to have been born exactly between 1307 and 1310

A very narrow range indeed !

Her next marriage to Maurice, 4th Lord Berkeley would then be to a man at
least 7 and up to 18 years her junior and yet producing more children at least
until 1354.

The other alternative, that Elizabeth le Despencer is the daughter of this
Hugh's *father*
also Hugh le Despencer, Earl of Winchester
by his wife Isabel de Beauchamp
is possibly even more distressing.

In that case she would have to be born BY 1306 if not several years earlier;
live into her eighties dying 13 Jul 1389 and have a child when she was no less
than 48 years old. Not counting that now Maurice would be another four or
more years her junior.

It's a mess !

Will Johnson

Douglas Richardson

Re: C.P. Correction: Elizabeth le Despenser, wife of Sir Ral

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 30 des 2006 14:48:12

Dear Will ~

The fine in question states that the manor of Cokeham and the advowson
were settled in 17 Edward II [1323-1324] on Ralph de Camoys and his
wife, Elizabeth, for life, "with remainder to Ralph their son and heirs
of his body, with contingent remainders to John, brother [of Ralph],
Margaret and Isabel, sisters of Ralph, or right heirs of Ralph de
Camoys." [Reference: L.F. Salzman, An Abstract of the Feet of Fines
relating to the County of Sussex (Sussex Record Society, 53) (1916):
53].

In another fine dated 19 Edward II [1325-1326], a settlement is made on
Ralph de Camoys and Elizabeth his wife and John their son. A
contingent remainder is provided for John's brothers, Ralph and Hugh
[Reference: Ibid., 59].

The second fine proves that John de Camoys was the son of Sir Ralph de
Camoys and his 2nd wife, Elizabeth. This evidence also proves that
John was not the son of Sir Ralph de Camoys' 1st wife, Margaret de
Brewes, as stated on the Kemmis website.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

< I cannot figure out this entry
< "http://users.qconline.com/~kemmy/book/kemmis03.html#ralph4
< In 1324, the Manor of Cokeham in Sumpting, (38) Sussex, and the
advowson of
< the hospital of St. Anthony annexed thereto, were settled by fine
upon Ralph
< and his wife Elizabeth for life, and on their son Ralph for life,
remainder to
< their grandson John, and on failure of his issue to his sisters
Margaret and
< Isabella and their heirs in succession, remainder to the right heirs
of Ralph."
<
< How can Ralph, by his second wife Elizabeth already have a grandson
by her ?
< The above definitely says "their grandson" not "his grandson"
< Will Johnson

Leo van de Pas

Re: Who was John Harrington of Doncaster ?

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 30 des 2006 23:30:44

Dear James,

You quite rightly query who was/were the wives of Sir Richard Copley, of
Batley.

My information for this couple comes from Gerald Paget's monumental work on
the ancestors of Prince Charles.
This work is monumental but also it is known to contain flaws and has no
sources mentioned.

Q115489 Sir Richard Copley, of Batley...................................also
number Q118013
Q115490 Margaret, daughter of Sir Richard Denton.................also number
Q118014

parents of
P 59007 Sir Roger Copley, of Roughway, Sussex, born ca.1430, no date of
death
before 1464 he married Jane or Anne) Hoo

----------------

In Faris first edition page 278 Roger Copley is clearly marked as the son of
Sir Richard Copley and Elizabeth, daughter of John Harington.

I think there is a minor observation to be made on this page by Faris. Roger
Copley, recorded in 1482, but died v.p.before 21 December 1490, when the
will of William Copley, left a bequest for masses for his brothers Oliver,
Roger and Thomas.

It tells us that Sir Richard Copley was alive after 1482 and probably still
by 1490. I have that Sir Richard wrote his will 16 July 1434. If Sir Richard
was born, say, 1400 (he had children in the 1420s) then he could well be
alive in 1490.

What do you think?

In regards of the wives of Sir Richard Copley, it is hard to say because we
really need Primary sources. But on the face of it, my guess is that Faris
is probably correct. The scope of Paget's work is just enormous and so you
should not be surprised that errors have crept in.

Does anyone have better information?

With best wishes
Leo van de Pas,
Canberra, Australia



----- Original Message -----
From: <Jwc1870@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL@rootsweb.com>
Cc: <Jwc1870@AOL..com>
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2006 7:41 AM
Subject: Who was John Harrington of Doncaster ?


Dear Leo, Jim Weber, Douglas and others,
Accordis to
David Faris in his original ad 2nd editions of Plantagenet Ancestry of
Seventeenth Century Colonists p 270 (1st edition), Roger Copley, Esq. of
Roughey,
Sussex died between 1482 when listed as a member of the Company of Mercers
and 21
December 1490 when his elder brother William Copley, Gentleman of
Doncaster,
York left a bequest for masses to be said for the souls of his brothers
Oliver,
Roger, and Thomas. Roger`s father Sir Richard Copley, kt. of Batley, West
Riding, York was married 1st to Margaret Denton who according to
Genelogics. Org
was the mother in abt 1421 of Lionel Copley of Batley who is not referred
to
in William`s will. Faris claimed that Elizabeth Harrington, daughter of
John
Harrington of Doncester, West Riding, York was Roger`s mother based on
William
Copley of Doncaster`s will. So who was He ? if He had been the 4th Lord
Harrington then William Copley rather than William Harrington should have
been 5th
Lord Harrington as the title devolved at the latter`s death to William,
2nd
Lord Bonville, the husband of his heiress, another Elizabeth Harrington.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

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alden@mindspring.com

Re: Who was John Harrington of Doncaster ?

Legg inn av alden@mindspring.com » 31 des 2006 00:00:49

On Dec 30, 5:30 pm, "Leo van de Pas" <leovd...@netspeed.com.au> wrote:
Dear James,

You quite rightly query who was/were the wives of Sir Richard Copley, of
Batley.

My information for this couple comes from Gerald Paget's monumental work on
the ancestors of Prince Charles.
This work is monumental but also it is known to contain flaws and has no
sources mentioned.

Q115489 Sir Richard Copley, of Batley...................................also
number Q118013
Q115490 Margaret, daughter of Sir Richard Denton.................also number
Q118014

parents of
P 59007 Sir Roger Copley, of Roughway, Sussex, born ca.1430, no date of
death
before 1464 he married Jane or Anne) Hoo

----------------

In Faris first edition page 278 Roger Copley is clearly marked as the son of
Sir Richard Copley and Elizabeth, daughter of John Harington.

I think there is a minor observation to be made on this page by Faris. Roger
Copley, recorded in 1482, but died v.p.before 21 December 1490, when the
will of William Copley, left a bequest for masses for his brothers Oliver,
Roger and Thomas.

It tells us that Sir Richard Copley was alive after 1482 and probably still
by 1490. I have that Sir Richard wrote his will 16 July 1434. If Sir Richard
was born, say, 1400 (he had children in the 1420s) then he could well be
alive in 1490.

What do you think?

In regards of the wives of Sir Richard Copley, it is hard to say because we
really need Primary sources. But on the face of it, my guess is that Faris
is probably correct. The scope of Paget's work is just enormous and so you
should not be surprised that errors have crept in.

Does anyone have better information?

With best wishes
Leo van de Pas,
Canberra, Australia

----- Original Message -----
From: <Jwc1...@aol.com
To: <GEN-MEDIE...@rootsweb.com

Cc: <Jwc1870@AOL..com
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2006 7:41 AM
Subject: Who was John Harrington of Doncaster ?

Dear Leo, Jim Weber, Douglas and others,
Accordis to
David Faris in his original ad 2nd editions of Plantagenet Ancestry of
Seventeenth Century Colonists p 270 (1st edition), Roger Copley, Esq. of
Roughey,
Sussex died between 1482 when listed as a member of the Company of Mercers
and 21
December 1490 when his elder brother William Copley, Gentleman of
Doncaster,
York left a bequest for masses to be said for the souls of his brothers
Oliver,
Roger, and Thomas. Roger`s father Sir Richard Copley, kt. of Batley, West
Riding, York was married 1st to Margaret Denton who according to
Genelogics. Org
was the mother in abt 1421 of Lionel Copley of Batley who is not referred
to
in William`s will. Faris claimed that Elizabeth Harrington, daughter of
John
Harrington of Doncester, West Riding, York was Roger`s mother based on
William
Copley of Doncaster`s will. So who was He ? if He had been the 4th Lord
Harrington then William Copley rather than William Harrington should have
been 5th
Lord Harrington as the title devolved at the latter`s death to William,
2nd
Lord Bonville, the husband of his heiress, another Elizabeth Harrington.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
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quotes in the subject and the body of the message

There were posts here in Feb 2004 on this topic.



Doug Smith

Gjest

Re: Who was John Harrington of Doncaster ?

Legg inn av Gjest » 31 des 2006 00:41:02

Dear Doug,
I`ve read them. I beleve Elizabeth Harington to be the
mother, but I have reservations about John Harrington of Doncaster being the same
person as John , 4th Lord Harrington who married Elizabeth Courtenay. While
passage of Doncaster, York from John Harrington to William Copley, Gent. of
Doncaster seems pretty straight foreward, the Barony of Harrington didn`t go
with it and unless it was only under John`s younger brother William that
provision was made to allow for succession to the Barony of Harrington through the
female line. They can not have been one and the same person.

Sincerely.

James W Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA

John Higgins

Re: Who was John Harrington of Doncaster ?

Legg inn av John Higgins » 31 des 2006 01:30:01

The posts in Feb. 2004 didn't really resolve the issue of the mother of
Roger Copley of Roughey. As has been noted, Faris in both PA1 and PA2 said
he was a son of Sir Richard Copley's 2nd wife Elizabeth Harington. But RPA
revised this to say that he was a son by the 1st wife Margaret Denton,
citing conflicting sources without noting the conflicts and overlooking at
least one source on the family.

Both PA1/PA2 and RPA cite an article, by V. C. Sanborn, in "The Genealogist
[new series]", vol 33, 1917, which accepts Elizabeth Harrington [sic] as the
mother of Roger Copley, while noting that some early visitation pedigrees
give him a different mother. Sanborn cites, inter alia, Rev. Joseph
Hunter's "South Yorkshire", which asserts that Sir Richard Copley had only
one son by the 1st marriage: Lionel, who inherited Batley. All the
remaining sons, including Roger the sixth son, are said to be from the 2nd
marriage.

As to Elizabeth Harrington she is said by Sanborn (possibly based on Hunter)
to be dau. and sole heir of John Harrington of Doncaster, and granddaughter
of Sir William Harrington of Brierley by his wife Margaret, daughter of Sir
Robert Nevile [of Hornby], and aunt and co-heir of Margaret [Nevile],
Duchess of Exeter (wife of Thomas Beaufort). The sketchy pedigrees that
I've seen for the Harington/Harrington families indicate that this John
Harrington was not the one who was the 4th Lord Harington, and thus the
question of succession to the title by the Copleys is not relevant.

Both PA1/PA2 and RPA say that Roger Copley was born ca. 1430, but it's not
clear what this is based on, except perhaps that his father Sir Richard made
his will 16 July 1434 and the will was proved 28 Sept 1434.

FWIW, Roger Copley of Roughey and his wife Anne Hoo are ancestors of Princes
William and Harry (and no doubt many others) through four of their children.

----- Original Message -----
From: <Jwc1870@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL@rootsweb.com>
Cc: <Jwc1870@AOL..com>
Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2006 3:38 PM
Subject: Re: Who was John Harrington of Doncaster ?


Dear Doug,
I`ve read them. I beleve Elizabeth Harington to be the
mother, but I have reservations about John Harrington of Doncaster being
the same
person as John , 4th Lord Harrington who married Elizabeth Courtenay.
While
passage of Doncaster, York from John Harrington to William Copley, Gent.
of
Doncaster seems pretty straight foreward, the Barony of Harrington didn`t
go
with it and unless it was only under John`s younger brother William that
provision was made to allow for succession to the Barony of Harrington
through the
female line. They can not have been one and the same person.

Sincerely.

James W Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA



-------------------------------
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quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Leo van de Pas

Re: Who was John Harrington of Doncaster ?

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 31 des 2006 01:42:14

And so dying v.p. is wrong? By some fifty years?
Leo


----- Original Message -----
From: "John Higgins" <jthiggins@sbcglobal.net>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL@rootsweb.com>
Cc: <Jwc1870@AOL..com>
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2006 11:30 AM
Subject: Re: Who was John Harrington of Doncaster ?


The posts in Feb. 2004 didn't really resolve the issue of the mother of
Roger Copley of Roughey. As has been noted, Faris in both PA1 and PA2
said
he was a son of Sir Richard Copley's 2nd wife Elizabeth Harington. But
RPA
revised this to say that he was a son by the 1st wife Margaret Denton,
citing conflicting sources without noting the conflicts and overlooking at
least one source on the family.

Both PA1/PA2 and RPA cite an article, by V. C. Sanborn, in "The
Genealogist
[new series]", vol 33, 1917, which accepts Elizabeth Harrington [sic] as
the
mother of Roger Copley, while noting that some early visitation pedigrees
give him a different mother. Sanborn cites, inter alia, Rev. Joseph
Hunter's "South Yorkshire", which asserts that Sir Richard Copley had only
one son by the 1st marriage: Lionel, who inherited Batley. All the
remaining sons, including Roger the sixth son, are said to be from the 2nd
marriage.

As to Elizabeth Harrington she is said by Sanborn (possibly based on
Hunter)
to be dau. and sole heir of John Harrington of Doncaster, and
granddaughter
of Sir William Harrington of Brierley by his wife Margaret, daughter of
Sir
Robert Nevile [of Hornby], and aunt and co-heir of Margaret [Nevile],
Duchess of Exeter (wife of Thomas Beaufort). The sketchy pedigrees that
I've seen for the Harington/Harrington families indicate that this John
Harrington was not the one who was the 4th Lord Harington, and thus the
question of succession to the title by the Copleys is not relevant.

Both PA1/PA2 and RPA say that Roger Copley was born ca. 1430, but it's not
clear what this is based on, except perhaps that his father Sir Richard
made
his will 16 July 1434 and the will was proved 28 Sept 1434.

FWIW, Roger Copley of Roughey and his wife Anne Hoo are ancestors of
Princes
William and Harry (and no doubt many others) through four of their
children.

----- Original Message -----
From: <Jwc1870@aol.com
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL@rootsweb.com
Cc: <Jwc1870@AOL..com
Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2006 3:38 PM
Subject: Re: Who was John Harrington of Doncaster ?


Dear Doug,
I`ve read them. I beleve Elizabeth Harington to be the
mother, but I have reservations about John Harrington of Doncaster being
the same
person as John , 4th Lord Harrington who married Elizabeth Courtenay.
While
passage of Doncaster, York from John Harrington to William Copley, Gent.
of
Doncaster seems pretty straight foreward, the Barony of Harrington didn`t
go
with it and unless it was only under John`s younger brother William that
provision was made to allow for succession to the Barony of Harrington
through the
female line. They can not have been one and the same person.

Sincerely.

James W Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA



-------------------------------
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GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message


-------------------------------
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quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Vivien Martin

Re: GEN-MEDIEVAL Digest, Vol 1, Issue 208

Legg inn av Vivien Martin » 31 des 2006 01:53:01

Marco
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject:
ORD or ORDE family in England
From:
"PalaLupis" <istpalalupis@email.it
Date:
Sat, 30 Dec 2006 01:29:18 +0100
To:
gen-medieval@rootsweb.com

To:
gen-medieval@rootsweb.com


X-Copyrighted-Material: Please visit http://www.email.it/ita/privacy.html

I'm looking fot some information and genealogy about the british ORD or
ORDE family.

I know that Elizabeth Ord was one of the daughter of (lord, sir?)
Francis Ord (d. 1792), described by Menzies Campbell as being 'noble,
wealthy, and of ancient lineage', had lived thirty miles to the north of
Alnwick at Longridge Hall, close to Berwick-upon Tweed" (Campbell J M.
"From a trade to a profession: Byways in dental history", pagg. 20;
32-33. Private printing. 1958) and nephew of sir Harry St George Ord,
governour of Singapore in 1867 and of Western Australia from 1877 to
1880.

I am of this ORD family. What do you wish to know?



Regards
Vivien ORD Martin

Gjest

Re: Who was John Harrington of Doncaster ?

Legg inn av Gjest » 31 des 2006 14:41:03

Dear Leo,
John Higgins in his post of yesterday said that Sir Richard
Copley`s will of 16 July 1434 was proved on September 28 , 1434. So vp should
definitely be vf (vita fratis).
For what it`s worth a couple of websites say Elizabeth Harrington was the
daughter of John Harrington of Doncaster died 1465 by his wife Isabel Sewer died
1462, daughter of Richard Sewer and wife Joan, grandson as John said of
William Harrington variously described as of Briarley, Hornby and Farleton whose
lineage is given in Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists line 35 and 34
by Margaret de Neville whose ancestry is given in AR 247 her parents being
Robert Neville of Hornby and Margaret de la Pole. Sir William Harrington was a
knight of the Garter , standard bearer at the Battle of Agincourt, was wounded
at the siege of Rouen in 1419 and died 22 February 1439/40 being son of
Nicholas Harrington and Isabel English.

Sincerely,

James W Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA

Douglas Richardson

Re: Who was John Harrington of Doncaster ?

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 31 des 2006 16:59:11

Dear James ~

You can find pedigrees of the Copley family in the following sources:

1. R. Thoresby, Ducatus Leodiensis 2: (1816): 11.

2. J. Foster, Peds. of Fams. of Yorkshire (1874) (Copley arms: Argent,
a cross moline sable).

3. R. Glover, Vis. of Yorkshire 1584/5, 1612 (1875): 10.

4. W. Flower, Vis. of Yorkshire 1563-4 (H.S.P. 16) (1881): 78-80.

5. T. Benolte et al., Vis. Sussex 1530, 1633-4 (H.S.P. 53) (1905):
111.

6. W. Harvey et al., Vis. of the North 2 (Surtees Soc.133) (1921): 163.

Reference #6 identifies Margaret Denton as the mother of Roger Copley.
I believe that is correct. The chronology of Elizabeth Harrington's
family seems to prohibit her being the mother of Roger Copley.

In medieval genealogy, it's chronology, chronology, chronology, much
like real estate which is location, location, location.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Gjest

Re: Who was John Harrington of Doncaster ?

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 jan 2007 00:34:02

Since we're on Harrington of Hornby does anyone know the answer to this
question?

William /Harington/ , K.G. of Brierley
is said to have died *at* Hornby Castle, Leicestershire
22 Feb 1439/40

He had at least two sons
John /Harrington/ of Doncaster, Yorkshire d 1465
and
Thomas /Harington/ , Knt d 1461 Battle of Wakefield

Obviously neither son d.v.p. and so the question is, which son inherited
Hornby ?

Right now I have the two sons of Thomas as "of Hornby" but since I only have
one daughter for John the brother of Thomas, this doesn't preclude John from
being the elder brother who inherited and then at his death the castle devolved
to his nephew.

The alternative is that Thomas was the elder brother and the castle descended
to his own son upon his death at Wakefield.

I'm not sure which is the correct view.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: C.P. Correction: Elizabeth le Despenser, wife of Sir Ral

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 jan 2007 00:42:02

In a message dated 12/30/06 9:51:30 AM Pacific Standard Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:

<< The fine in question states that the manor of Cokeham and the advowson
were settled in 17 Edward II [1323-1324] on Ralph de Camoys and his
wife, Elizabeth, for life, "with remainder to Ralph their son and heirs
of his body, with contingent remainders to John, brother [of Ralph],
Margaret and Isabel, sisters of Ralph, or right heirs of Ralph de
Camoys." [Reference: L.F. Salzman, An Abstract of the Feet of Fines
relating to the County of Sussex (Sussex Record Society, 53) (1916):
53].

In another fine dated 19 Edward II [1325-1326], a settlement is made on
Ralph de Camoys and Elizabeth his wife and John their son. A
contingent remainder is provided for John's brothers, Ralph and Hugh
[Reference: Ibid., 59]. >>


That's a nice set of fines. It would seem to insinuate that Hugh was born
exactly in the narrow range 1323/1326 since he is not mentioned in the first
fine while his sisters are.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Fw: C.P. Correction: Elizabeth le Despenser, wife of Sir

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 jan 2007 00:51:01

In a message dated 12/31/06 2:16:59 PM Pacific Standard Time,
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au writes:

<< When you go back so far in time the lines of descent spread really wide. >>

Indeed, one of Ela de Camoys descendents I am showing as that
Margery le /Despencer/ d 20 Apr 1478
who married
Roger /Wentworth/ , Knt of Nettlestead, Suffolk d abt 24 Oct 1452
and by this had at least 17 grandchildren

With that sort of production, it's possible that every person can trace
themselves back to Ela

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Who was John Harrington of Doncaster ?

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 jan 2007 01:00:03

Dear Will,
As You say... it doesn`t preclude John being the elder but as
He is apparently always styled as `of Doncaster` and Thomas was `of Hornby`
then It seems likely that John was the younger son, as William of Briarley
succeeded both his father (or maybe a elder brother) at Farleton and hisv
father-in-law at Hornby.
I find it interesting that Roger Copley Esq, an apparent grandson of John
Harington`s was a member of the Company of mercers just as John`s maternal Great
grandfather William de la Pole, 1st Earl of Suffolk was. Or was He a banker?
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
PS if John had been the elder son, the Copleys would have inherited Hornby
rather than Doncaster.

Gjest

Re: Robert Passele's wife Anne's death date 1398-9?

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 jan 2007 01:14:02

In a message dated 12/31/06 8:15:55 AM Pacific Standard Time, kleigh1@cox.net
writes:

<<
The 1395 record, and deed #304 from the Harvard site indicate that Anne was
alive and widowed in 1395. But was she dead in 1398 or 1399 by the above
records? >>

This documents must relate to Sir Robert Pashley, Knt and his wife Philippa
Sergeaux who married before June 1397 and had at least three children before
Robert died by 1407.

I would suggest that possible John Sergeaux, clerk must then be a brother to
Philippa.

I don't think these documents tell us when Ann died, only that she was still
alive in all of them. She was holding the Manor of Mote as a dower property
for her life. The reversion doesn't indicate that she *has* died, only that
when she dies, the reversion indicates who next takes control. As I understand
it.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Who was John Harrington of Doncaster ?

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 jan 2007 01:16:02

In a message dated 12/31/06 3:59:07 PM Pacific Standard Time, Jwc1870@aol.com
writes:

<< As You say... it doesn`t preclude John being the elder but
as
He is apparently always styled as `of Doncaster` and Thomas was `of Hornby`

I don't however have a document where Thomas is actually styled "of Hornby",
only that his sons were.

Do you have one?
Thanks
Will Johnson

Merilyn Pedrick

Re: Who was John Harrington of Doncaster ?

Legg inn av Merilyn Pedrick » 01 jan 2007 02:37:02

Dear James
How was John's maternal great grandfather arrived at? I haven't a wife for
William Harrington.
I've just changed Roger Copley's mother from Margaret Denton to Elizabeth
Harrington, so I'm just trying to catch up with that information and all it
implies!
Best wishes
Merilyn Pedrick




-------Original Message-------

From: Jwc1870@aol.com
Date: 01/01/07 10:29:20
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL@rootsweb.com
Cc: Jwc1870@AOL..com
Subject: Re: Who was John Harrington of Doncaster ?

Dear Will,
As You say... it doesn`t preclude John being the elder but as
He is apparently always styled as `of Doncaster` and Thomas was `of Hornby`
then It seems likely that John was the younger son, as William of Briarley
succeeded both his father (or maybe a elder brother) at Farleton and hisv
father-in-law at Hornby.
I find it interesting that Roger Copley Esq, an apparent grandson of John
Harington`s was a member of the Company of mercers just as John`s maternal
Great
grandfather William de la Pole, 1st Earl of Suffolk was. Or was He a banker?
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
PS if John had been the elder son, the Copleys would have inherited Hornby
rather than Doncaster.


-------------------------------
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alden@mindspring.com

Re: Who was John Harrington of Doncaster ?

Legg inn av alden@mindspring.com » 01 jan 2007 03:20:25

,snip.

If Sir Thomas Harington (died at Wakefield) who married Elizabeth de
Dacre abt. 1420/1425 was the older brother of John of Doncaster, then
say b. abt 1400. If we say John was b as early as 1402 and married say
1423, than the earliest Elizabeth Harington could have been born was
abt 1423. Not likely she had children until at least 1437. Since
Roger Copley was supposedly born abt 1429, it would appear that Douglas
Richardson has a good point about the chronology and that Margaret
Denton may well have been the mother of most, if not all the children.

Doug Smith


I've just changed Roger Copley's mother from Margaret Denton to Elizabeth
Harrington, so I'm just trying to catch up with that information and all it
implies!
Best wishes
Merilyn Pedrick

-------Original Message-------

From: Jwc1...@aol.com
Date: 01/01/07 10:29:20
To: GEN-MEDIE...@rootsweb.com

Cc: Jwc1870@AOL..com
Subject: Re: Who was John Harrington of Doncaster ?

Dear Will,
As You say... it doesn`t preclude John being the elder but as
He is apparently always styled as `of Doncaster` and Thomas was `of Hornby`
then It seems likely that John was the younger son, as William of Briarley
succeeded both his father (or maybe a elder brother) at Farleton and hisv
father-in-law at Hornby.
I find it interesting that Roger Copley Esq, an apparent grandson of John
Harington`s was a member of the Company of mercers just as John`s maternal
Great
grandfather William de la Pole, 1st Earl of Suffolk was. Or was He a banker?
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
PS if John had been the elder son, the Copleys would have inherited Hornby
rather than Doncaster.

-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEVAL-requ...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Merilyn Pedrick

Re: Who was John Harrington of Doncaster ?

Legg inn av Merilyn Pedrick » 01 jan 2007 05:16:03

Thankyou James
The plot thickens. By the way, your e-mail address is bouncing my e-mails
to you.
Merilyn




-------Original Message-------

From: Jwc1870@aol.com
Date: 01/01/07 14:08:56
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL@rootsweb.com
Cc: Jwc1870@AOL..com
Subject: Re: Who was John Harrington of Doncaster ?

Dear Merilyn, Doug, Will, Leo and others,
According to AR
7
line 247 Margaret Neville , heiress of Hornby , daughter of Sir Robert
Neville of Hornby by his wife Margaret de la Pole. She was married to Sir
William
Harrington of Farleton and Chotley, Lancaster died abt 1440. see CP IX
200-201.
If Margaret Denton were Roger Copley`s mother, how did Doncaster descend to
William Copley, Gent. Roger`s older brother ? We know that Sir Richard
Copley
was deceased by September 28, 1434 when his will was proved and that
Elizabeth
Harrington his wife was dead as well in May of 1456. As She did marry
Richard,
she would have been 11 years old when He died. Not even of marrigable age.
Thomas and John may in fact have had to have been born before 1387 as their
apparent mother was dead at that time. All of which forces the timeline
back by
at least 13? years for them and their sister Agnes the wife of Alexander
Radcliffe.

Sincerely,

James W Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA

-------------------------------
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Merilyn Pedrick

Re: Who was John Harrington of Doncaster ?

Legg inn av Merilyn Pedrick » 01 jan 2007 05:17:02

Dear Doug
Thankyou for that. I've got both wives listed as belonging to Sir Richard
Copley, so I can easily assign Roger to either mother when it becomes clear
which one it is.
Merilyn



-------Original Message-------

From: alden@mindspring.com
Date: 01/01/07 12:57:42
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Who was John Harrington of Doncaster ?

,snip.

If Sir Thomas Harington (died at Wakefield) who married Elizabeth de
Dacre abt. 1420/1425 was the older brother of John of Doncaster, then
say b. abt 1400. If we say John was b as early as 1402 and married say
1423, than the earliest Elizabeth Harington could have been born was
abt 1423. Not likely she had children until at least 1437. Since
Roger Copley was supposedly born abt 1429, it would appear that Douglas
Richardson has a good point about the chronology and that Margaret
Denton may well have been the mother of most, if not all the children.

Doug Smith


I've just changed Roger Copley's mother from Margaret Denton to Elizabeth
Harrington, so I'm just trying to catch up with that information and all
it
implies!
Best wishes
Merilyn Pedrick

-------Original Message-------

From: Jwc1...@aol.com
Date: 01/01/07 10:29:20
To: GEN-MEDIE...@rootsweb.com

Cc: Jwc1870@AOL..com
Subject: Re: Who was John Harrington of Doncaster ?

Dear Will,
As You say... it doesn`t preclude John being the elder but
as
He is apparently always styled as `of Doncaster` and Thomas was `of
Hornby`
then It seems likely that John was the younger son, as William of Briarley
succeeded both his father (or maybe a elder brother) at Farleton and hisv
father-in-law at Hornby.
I find it interesting that Roger Copley Esq, an apparent grandson of John
Harington`s was a member of the Company of mercers just as John`s maternal
Great
grandfather William de la Pole, 1st Earl of Suffolk was. Or was He a
banker?
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
PS if John had been the elder son, the Copleys would have inherited Hornby
rather than Doncaster.

-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEVAL-requ..
@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject

and the body of the message


-------------------------------
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Gjest

Re: Who was John Harrington of Doncaster ?

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 jan 2007 05:18:02

Dear Merilyn, Doug, Will, Leo and others,
According to AR 7
line 247 Margaret Neville , heiress of Hornby , daughter of Sir Robert
Neville of Hornby by his wife Margaret de la Pole. She was married to Sir William
Harrington of Farleton and Chotley, Lancaster died abt 1440. see CP IX 200-201.
If Margaret Denton were Roger Copley`s mother, how did Doncaster descend to
William Copley, Gent. Roger`s older brother ? We know that Sir Richard Copley
was deceased by September 28, 1434 when his will was proved and that Elizabeth
Harrington his wife was dead as well in May of 1456. As She did marry Richard,
she would have been 11 years old when He died. Not even of marrigable age.
Thomas and John may in fact have had to have been born before 1387 as their
apparent mother was dead at that time. All of which forces the timeline back by
at least 13? years for them and their sister Agnes the wife of Alexander
Radcliffe.

Sincerely,

James W Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA

Gjest

Re: Who was John Harrington of Doncaster ?

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 jan 2007 05:19:02

In a message dated 12/31/06 7:39:05 PM Pacific Standard Time, Jwc1870@aol.com
writes:

<< We know that Sir Richard Copley
was deceased by September 28, 1434 when his will was proved and that
Elizabeth
Harrington his wife was dead as well in May of 1456. As She did marry
Richard,
she would have been 11 years old when He died. >>

I don't have anything that tells me that year Elizabeth Harrington was born.
So how did you arrive at 11 years old when Richard died in 1434 ?

If you are balancing that on top of a guess as to whether John her father was
the younger brother, I'd say that's not a valid way to prove Elizabeth's age.
FIRST we need to determine IF John was the younger brother. And we haven't
yet done that.

Will

Douglas Richardson

Re: Who was John Harrington of Doncaster ?

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 01 jan 2007 05:27:49

As you correctly pointed out, it is near impossible for Elizabeth
Harington to be the mother of Roger Copley, if Roger was born about
1430.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

alden@mindspring.com wrote:
< ,snip.
<
< If Sir Thomas Harington (died at Wakefield) who married Elizabeth de
< Dacre abt. 1420/1425 was the older brother of John of Doncaster, then
< say b. abt 1400. If we say John was b as early as 1402 and married
say
< 1423, than the earliest Elizabeth Harington could have been born was
< abt 1423. Not likely she had children until at least 1437. Since
< Roger Copley was supposedly born abt 1429, it would appear that
Douglas
< Richardson has a good point about the chronology and that Margaret
< Denton may well have been the mother of most, if not all the
children.
<
< Doug Smith

Gjest

Re: Who was John Harrington of Doncaster ?

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 jan 2007 14:35:02

Dear Will,
Doug Smith indicated that He (and Douglas Richardson ) had
assigned Elizabeth Harrington had assigned a birthdate of abt 1423 based on a
birthdate of abt 1400 for John but if Margaret Neville died bef 1387 that theory
is shot. Of Course it also means that John didn`t die until He was 78 years or
more old.... and Thomas who was killed at Wakefield in 1461 was at least 74
provided They were twins. Thomas Harington definitely belonged to Margaret as
He recieved Hornby rather than its` passing to their sister Agnes Radcliffe.
Another alternative is that Margaret survived until 1413 and her father Robert
b abt 1421 -d 1413 according to AR 7 line 247 was the one who died bef 1387,
provided that shouldn`t have been married bef 1387.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

Gjest

Re: Who was John Harrington of Doncaster ?

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 jan 2007 14:54:04

Dear Leo,
You have the date of Sir Richard Copley`s will as 16 July
1434. Any Idea of where to get a copy or is it merely listed in a calendar of
wills ? Also, while Roger was stated to have died vita patris, it was in fact
Richard who seems to have done so,if his father was the John Copley of Gatton,
Surrey died in abt 1440. his mother was apparently Margaret Hutton.

Sincerely,

James W Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA

alden@mindspring.com

Re: Who was John Harrington of Doncaster ?

Legg inn av alden@mindspring.com » 01 jan 2007 16:52:42

I don't believe Margaret Neville d. bef 1387 as AR 6 and & says:

CP V 204 footnote b which is referenced above cites a writ of diem cl.
ext dated abt 1427 which refers to Margaret now the wife of William
Harrington. AR misread CP. CP IX 490-491 clearly says Thomas de
Neville heir apparent dvp bef 1387. Thomas' daughter Margaret married
Thomas Beaufort. His sister Margaret married Sir William Harington.
It appears that the bef 1387 got moved from one person to another.

Doug Smith

Gjest

Re: Who was John Harrington of Doncaster ?

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 jan 2007 19:53:02

In a message dated 1/1/2007 5:33:13 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
Jwc1870@aol.com writes:

and Thomas who was killed at Wakefield in 1461 was at least 74
provided They were twins. Thomas Harington definitely belonged to Margaret
as
He recieved Hornby rather than its` passing to their sister Agnes Radcliffe.


First how do you know they were twins.
Secondly how do you know Thomas received Hornby.
Thanks
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Another C.P. Correction: Marriage date of Elizabeth le D

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 jan 2007 19:57:02

Yes I accept the conclusion, tentatively at least, that John de Camoys was a
son of Elizabeth le Despencer :)

This one seems relatively well-founded.

Will Johnson

John Higgins

Re: Who was John Harrington of Doncaster ?

Legg inn av John Higgins » 01 jan 2007 20:13:32

According to the Sanborn article I cited earlier, the will of Sir Richard
Copley was dated 16 July 1434 and proved at York 28 Sept 1434. For this
(and the will of Sir Richard's son William), Sanborn cites Testamenta
Eboracensia, vol. iv, pp. 47-50.

What source gives Sir Richard's parents as John Copley of Gatton and [?]
Margaret Hutton? There is an old posting in the archives from Marlyn Lewis
in 1998 which cites Foster's Yorkshire Pedigrees and takes the Copley
pedigree back to the Conquest (conveniently), but I wonder how reliable that
is....

BTW, the notion that Sir Richard's son Roger died vp apparently comes from
one of the visitation pedigrees. Sanborn mentions that "one pedigree states
that Roger Copley, son of Sir Richard, died s.p. in his father's lifetime".
He apparently gives no credit to this source (which he doesn't specifically
identify) and goes on to give the more accepted version of Roger's details.
It appears the visitation in question may be Flower's 1563-4 visitation of
Yorkshire (Harleian Society vol. 16) which indicates Roger as dying sp
although not specifically vp.

----- Original Message -----
From: <Jwc1870@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL@rootsweb.com>
Cc: <Jwc1870@AOL..com>
Sent: Monday, January 01, 2007 5:51 AM
Subject: Re: Who was John Harrington of Doncaster ?


Dear Leo,
You have the date of Sir Richard Copley`s will as 16 July
1434. Any Idea of where to get a copy or is it merely listed in a calendar
of
wills ? Also, while Roger was stated to have died vita patris, it was in
fact
Richard who seems to have done so,if his father was the John Copley of
Gatton,
Surrey died in abt 1440. his mother was apparently Margaret Hutton.

Sincerely,

James W Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA

-------------------------------
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quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Gjest

Re: Who was John Harrington of Doncaster ?

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 jan 2007 23:06:02

In order to determine which wife of John Harrington of Doncaster, had which
children, it is useful to remove the layers of indirect discussion.

We've had many statement as to certain facts without reference to the
underlying authority. I notice that the Roger Copley family is referenced in AR8,
line 17 where he cites his authorities as "CP IV:155-156, VI:561-565,
XII(2):443-4, 449-50, 522"

In addition Roger Copley is referenced by Leo where he cites ""The Lineage
and Ancestry of H.R.H. Prince Charles, Prince of Wales, Edinburgh, 1977, Paget,
Gerald, Reference: P 59007" and "The Complete Peerage, 1936 , Doubleday, H.A.
& Lord Howard de Walden, Reference: IV 156"

I can supply the information from CP IV but it does NOT go to show who
Roger's parents were, it does not show that he was b abt 1429/30, it does not state
he was sixth son, it does not state when he died.

The CP IV: 155-6 reference only says this about Roger Copley
"He [Thomas de la Warre] m., 2ndly, Eleanor, da of Sir Roger Copley, of
Roughway, Sussex, by Anne, 2nd da. and coh. of Thomas (Hoo), Baron Hoo and
Hastings...."

So from that reference we only get confirmation of one daughter, a placename,
and his wife.

Perhaps one of the other references (which I don't have access to), expresses
the points that he was
1) Sixth son
2) b abt 1429/30
3) a YOUNGER brother of William Copley of Doncaster (as opposed to a
half-brother, or elder brother)

Will Johnson

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