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Annie

Re: kazars and cohanim

Legg inn av Annie » 14 des 2006 09:55:25

In case you didn't notice, I got fed up with the provos already
and left, but someone keeps suggesting that if I leave, it means
I'm running from an argument - I was just trying to avoid being
unpleasant, but I don't mind pussy-whipping a few of you overbearing
turkeys - whatsamatter, are Roz and Renia sleeping on the job?
Boy, I turn my back and you let the machos think they invented
the wheel - when everyone knows all they invented was lying
about it.

what's this tacky crap about women being "unfaithful"? takes 2!
Because you pretend men are paragons of virtue? a woman can
only make one bastard at a time, but a man can bugger like a rabbit
and make dozens - all on different women - probably his best friend's
wives, because he's too lazy to look, and not too picky - does this
make him more "faithful"?

Then, I suppose you're speaking from personal experience? - but
what could a woman do, finding herself married to a jerk like you?
Be faithful to herself! Admit the mistake made with you -
shop around for something higher on the evolutionary scale -
or at least, higher on the food chain -

A woman isn't being unfaithful when she dumps a turkey like you -
she's being smart.
The best way for a woman to lose 80 lbs of ugly fat? Divorce!

If there's a child, it's HERS - she carried it, nurtured it, made it grow;
all you did was take what you want, & dump the responsability, as usual -
no DNA testing needed there - an unwed mother isn't unfaithful. She's free.

Of course, there are real families, true love, lasting relationships -
honorable men - but that's another story.
Thanks for reminding me this list is a waste of time that I don't miss.

the lady in question wrote saying she was jewish, not "probably jewish",
not "palestinien" - boy what a presumptious creep you are! you think it's
sufficient to accuse others of racism, to be right about something?
No wonder I kept leaving this list -
NO! I ain't giving you DNA or any other data - because I don't like your
attitude. Like I said - a bunch of you split off at the snake level -

what's this crap about "back when Judaism started there were different
haplogroups - didn't you ever read a bible?

Back when Judaism started, there was Abraham
- that's one haplogroup - there may have been other
haplogroups around but they're no in question here -
what, every time you use a three sylable word, it shorts
out your brain circuits?

Abraham had (Ishmail first, but not the point here)
Isaac, who had Jacob and Esau, & Jacob had
the 12 tribes - remember?

(NB one branch does have descendants of Ishmail and
I'd expect them to match up like any other sons of Abraham)

Any other haplotypes are added by conversion or mixed marriage
These families both think they're jewish since forever,
(although it's possible they're not) so were expecting a relationship
if not in 1770 where it should have been, at least by 3000 BC, where
it still wasn't - however, neither was compared to the Cohanim, to see
where the break was - sheesh, gotta tell you everything!

I'm outta here. no time for this -


----- Original Message -----
From: "Doug McDonald" <mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 6:14 PM
Subject: Re: kazars and cohanim


Annie Natalelli-Waloszek wrote:
I wonder if any of you have tried Y-DNA testing; of course I didn't, but
I got two of my cousins to do so - the results were so strange, that I
wonder if someone somewhere isn't jumping the gun, by giving such
"definite" answers -

first of all, two lines that should have been converging, according to
documents - about 1770 - turned out unrelated, yea unto the very night
of times - with 6 mismatches out of 15 loci -

Could you tell us the actual data? This can help a lot.

Ok, so maybe there were some unwed mothers on the line

or perhaps not unwed ... just unfaithful


This is all the more strange, since they're both Jewish lines, so should
be converging at the very least, by about 3000 BC, at Abraham - but
they don't even converge at 6000 with those results...

Not necessarily ... even back when Judaism started up, there
were numerous haplogroups present in the area, so naturally
even the first Jews were diverse.



Then you come up with the Sorenson World Gen Tree and various other
Family Tree DNA cross-reference groups - which have online databases
that you can compare your results with to find long lost relatives - so
first a woman writes to one cousin saying her family (in Israel) has a
15/15 match to his results - which is impossible, since such a match
would make them brothers

No, not at all ... only that ON AVERAGE they would be
expected to be related within 12 generations, that is, 10th
cousins.

- and they'd surely know about each other - but
the other person wouldn't let us see the actual DNA results, nor discuss
the lines - so it looks like some sort of scam - fine, forget it.

Well, yes, forget it, but it's not a scam: it's important to
note that this family is in Israel ... note that they are
likely Jews: and if not, Palestinians, whose DNA matches a
SUBSET of Jews, because they arose from the same stock long
ago..



Then I searched the Sorenson base myself - using the surname, no
results, but using the actual markers - I found a 15/15 match, in the
Ukraine (Sorenson wouldn't tell me the name nor give out any info tho,
so I wonder what's the point of the database) !
Normally Sorenson will tell you the surname of the people
earlier than two or three generations ago. Not always.

This is even more
surprising than a lost brother in Israel, because hey, my Uncle may have
sown some wild oats in the army, that ended up in Israel, who knows -
but nobody in the family has been to Ukraine except me - I certainly
wasn't leaving any Y-Chromosomes behind -

As I quoted above, 15 markers is not very many .... so there
will be matches on very distant cousins. There is even a
5% chance that they would be more distant than 48th cousins!




The logical conclusion, based on a bit of familiarity with the
techniques involved - seems to be that IF Sorenson's isn't cheating, and
IF nobody's scamming or falsifying results - THEN obviously, there are
many more permutation coincidences possible for the given loci being
studies, than anyone has been taking into consideration for such global
and ancient studies -

Not at all ... see the numbers I quote above.


While 15 or 25 marker tests may suffice for paternity cases within a
given town and time, on a world scale, somebody needs to bring Occam's
Razor into play, to hone things finer.


15 marker tests can DISPROVE close relations ... as they did
for your two cousins ... but they (Y chromosome ones, that
is) can't PROVE close relations. One needs more markers for
that. I have currently 118 markers measured for me and that
begins to be enough (note that I am testing everything
available, since I am the DNA custodian for the Clan Donald,
and also serve as sort of "prototype" for the "Somerled
people").

The fact that your near-matches are in Israel and Ukraine
is indeed significant. It would be better to see the allele
values themselves, but it does suggest that whoever the
intruder in the bedroom was, or the person who was adopted,
were Jews. There is no one "Jewish DNA" ... you can't prove
or disprove Jewishness with Y-DNA ... but there certainly
are DNA types that are associated closely with Jewishness;
some of these are also fairly closely tied to other Mideast
groups, others to the general population in Russia and Ukraine.

Doug McDonald

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Gjest

re: Maud de Furnival, wife (2ndly) of Sir Roger la Zouche of

Legg inn av Gjest » 14 des 2006 12:48:02

Thursday, 14 December, 2006


Dear Doug, Clive, et al.,

Thanks for your two posts of yesterday, providing evidence
that Complete Peerage's "careful examination of the chronological
details" concerning this family was in error. I have recast the
chart of the family below, which shows the coheirs as sisters of
Robert, Lord Tateshal (d. bef 8 Sept 1298).

Doug, in your post of yesterday you identified Nichole,
mother of the said Lord Robert and his sisters, as Nichole de
Grey, daughter of Sir John de Grey. This would appear to have
been Sir John de Grey of Shirland (d. bef 18 Mar 1265/6), likely
by his wife Emma de Cauz: this would indicate that Emma de
Tateshal was named for her maternal grandmother, and that Nichole
(de Grey) de Tateshal was named for her maternal grandmother,
Nichole de Leigh, heiress of Thurleigh, Podinton and Snellson,
Bucks. and of Hemingford and Yelling, Hunts.

Has there been a prior post on SGM concerning this
identification? If not, if you would post the relevant
documentation concerning this identification, that would be most
appreciated.

Cheers,

John *



Robert = <1> Maud d'Aubigny
de Tateshal I <coheir of
<Hunmanby> I Arundel>
d. 1249 I
________I
I
Robert = Nichole [de Grey ?]
d. 1273 I
I
________________________I__________________
I I I I
Robert Emma Joan Isabel
Lord Tateshal = Adam = Sir Robert = Sir John
d. bef 8 Sept de Cailly de Driby de Orreby
1298 = Joan I I I
'filia Ranulfi' I I I
I V V V
I
Robert
Lord Tateshal
d. bef 28 Jul
1303 = Eve de Tibetot
I
I
Robert
3rd Lord
dsp 1305/6
= Joan
[Bardolf ?]



on 13 Dec 2006 Douglas Richardson wrote:


Dear John, etc. ~

The statement in Complete Peerage 12(1) (1953): 653 regarding the
parentage of Emme, Joan, and Isabel de Tateshale is very much in error.
That they were sisters, not daughters of Robert de Tateshale who died
in 1298 is obvious from the fact that none of the three Tateshale
sisters shared in the inheritance of Joan Fitz Ralph, wife of Robert de
Tateshale. Rather, with the possible exception of one manor, Joan Fitz
Ralph's entire inheritance went to the descendants of her sister, Mary,
wife of Robert de Neville.


This matter is further discussed at some length in George Farnham's
excellent work, Leicestershire Medieval Pedigrees, published in 1925,
which work includes a large genealogical chart of the Tateshale family.
The chart traces the descendants of all three Tateshale sisters.
Reviewing the chronology, it is clear that the three sisters could not
possibly be the children of Robert de Tateshale and his wife, Joan Fitz
Ralph. Rather, the chronology dictates that they were Robert's
sisters, being daughters of Robert de Tateshale, died 1273, and his
wife, Nichole, daughter of John de Grey.


For starters, here are just two chronological examples. First, Adam de
Clifton, born about 1307, was the grandson and heir of Emme de
Tateshale, one of the three Tateshale sisters. Employing the 85 year
rule of thumb for three generations, if we subtract 85 years from 1307
we should get a reasonable estimated date of birth for Emme de
Tateshale's father. Doing the math, this gives us the year 1222.
Reviewing the Tateshale pedigree, we see that Robert de Tateshale (died
1273) is the closest match to that birthdate, he being born about 1223,
being aged 26 at his father's death in 1249.


Second, Sir John de Bernake, born 1305-6 or 1309, was the grandson
and heir of Joan de Tateshale, another of the three Tateshale sisters.
Again, if we substract 85 years from 1305/1309, we get a reasonable
estimated date of birth for Joan de Tateshale's father as 1220-1224.
Once again, the closest match to this birthdate is that of Robert de
Tateshale, died 1273, who was born about 1223.


The above math shows that Complete Peerage misrepresented the facts
when it stated that it had made a "careful examination of the
chronological details relating to Emma, Joan and Isabel and their
issue." Clearly Complete Peerage had not made such an examination.
And, thanks to Mr. Farnham's careful work, this error has been exposed.


For interest's sake, the following is a list of the 17th Century New
World colonists who descend from Robert de Tateshale, died 1273, and
his wife, Nichole de Grey. The list includes the immigrant, Margaret
Touteville, wife of Rev. Thomas Shepard, whose newly extended ancestry
has been previously discussed on the gen.medieval newsgroup.


William Bladen, Kenelm Cheseldine, Grace Chetwode, Muriel Gurdon, Anne
& Katherine Marbury, Thomas Owsley, Richard Saltonstall, Mary Johanna
Somerset, Margaret Touteville (two descents).


Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah



* John P. Ravilious

John P. Ravilious

Re: Maud de Furnival, wife (2ndly) of Sir Roger la Zouche of

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 14 des 2006 13:02:27

Dear Doug,

I believe there is at least one (if not two) additional
descent(s) of 17th Century New World colonists descending from this
pair.

If you trace the descent of Buckenham through Cromwell, Clifton,
and the Knyvett family, you will see a descent to Jane Lowe, wife of
Henry Sewall and Charles Calvert, Lord Baltimore.

The same descent, through Cromwell, Bernake and then FitzWilliam
allegedly runs through Bosville, Symmes and Lacy to William Farrar of
Virginia. I am seeking further confirmatory evidence re: this descent,
as there is material in Hunter's South Yorkshire which appears to
question the Bosville portion of the descent.

Cheers,

John



Therav3@aol.com wrote:
Thursday, 14 December, 2006


Dear Doug, Clive, et al.,

Thanks for your two posts of yesterday, providing evidence
that Complete Peerage's "careful examination of the chronological
details" concerning this family was in error. I have recast the
chart of the family below, which shows the coheirs as sisters of
Robert, Lord Tateshal (d. bef 8 Sept 1298).

Doug, in your post of yesterday you identified Nichole,
mother of the said Lord Robert and his sisters, as Nichole de
Grey, daughter of Sir John de Grey. This would appear to have
been Sir John de Grey of Shirland (d. bef 18 Mar 1265/6), likely
by his wife Emma de Cauz: this would indicate that Emma de
Tateshal was named for her maternal grandmother, and that Nichole
(de Grey) de Tateshal was named for her maternal grandmother,
Nichole de Leigh, heiress of Thurleigh, Podinton and Snellson,
Bucks. and of Hemingford and Yelling, Hunts.

Has there been a prior post on SGM concerning this
identification? If not, if you would post the relevant
documentation concerning this identification, that would be most
appreciated.

Cheers,

John *



Robert = <1> Maud d'Aubigny
de Tateshal I <coheir of
Hunmanby> I Arundel
d. 1249 I
________I
I
Robert = Nichole [de Grey ?]
d. 1273 I
I
________________________I__________________
I I I I
Robert Emma Joan Isabel
Lord Tateshal = Adam = Sir Robert = Sir John
d. bef 8 Sept de Cailly de Driby de Orreby
1298 = Joan I I I
'filia Ranulfi' I I I
I V V V
I
Robert
Lord Tateshal
d. bef 28 Jul
1303 = Eve de Tibetot
I
I
Robert
3rd Lord
dsp 1305/6
= Joan
[Bardolf ?]



on 13 Dec 2006 Douglas Richardson wrote:


Dear John, etc. ~

The statement in Complete Peerage 12(1) (1953): 653 regarding the
parentage of Emme, Joan, and Isabel de Tateshale is very much in error.
That they were sisters, not daughters of Robert de Tateshale who died
in 1298 is obvious from the fact that none of the three Tateshale
sisters shared in the inheritance of Joan Fitz Ralph, wife of Robert de
Tateshale. Rather, with the possible exception of one manor, Joan Fitz
Ralph's entire inheritance went to the descendants of her sister, Mary,
wife of Robert de Neville.


This matter is further discussed at some length in George Farnham's
excellent work, Leicestershire Medieval Pedigrees, published in 1925,
which work includes a large genealogical chart of the Tateshale family.
The chart traces the descendants of all three Tateshale sisters.
Reviewing the chronology, it is clear that the three sisters could not
possibly be the children of Robert de Tateshale and his wife, Joan Fitz
Ralph. Rather, the chronology dictates that they were Robert's
sisters, being daughters of Robert de Tateshale, died 1273, and his
wife, Nichole, daughter of John de Grey.


For starters, here are just two chronological examples. First, Adam de
Clifton, born about 1307, was the grandson and heir of Emme de
Tateshale, one of the three Tateshale sisters. Employing the 85 year
rule of thumb for three generations, if we subtract 85 years from 1307
we should get a reasonable estimated date of birth for Emme de
Tateshale's father. Doing the math, this gives us the year 1222.
Reviewing the Tateshale pedigree, we see that Robert de Tateshale (died
1273) is the closest match to that birthdate, he being born about 1223,
being aged 26 at his father's death in 1249.


Second, Sir John de Bernake, born 1305-6 or 1309, was the grandson
and heir of Joan de Tateshale, another of the three Tateshale sisters.
Again, if we substract 85 years from 1305/1309, we get a reasonable
estimated date of birth for Joan de Tateshale's father as 1220-1224.
Once again, the closest match to this birthdate is that of Robert de
Tateshale, died 1273, who was born about 1223.


The above math shows that Complete Peerage misrepresented the facts
when it stated that it had made a "careful examination of the
chronological details relating to Emma, Joan and Isabel and their
issue." Clearly Complete Peerage had not made such an examination.
And, thanks to Mr. Farnham's careful work, this error has been exposed.


For interest's sake, the following is a list of the 17th Century New
World colonists who descend from Robert de Tateshale, died 1273, and
his wife, Nichole de Grey. The list includes the immigrant, Margaret
Touteville, wife of Rev. Thomas Shepard, whose newly extended ancestry
has been previously discussed on the gen.medieval newsgroup.


William Bladen, Kenelm Cheseldine, Grace Chetwode, Muriel Gurdon, Anne
& Katherine Marbury, Thomas Owsley, Richard Saltonstall, Mary Johanna
Somerset, Margaret Touteville (two descents).


Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah



* John P. Ravilious

Dora Smith

Where do I find 17th century wills for Dorsetshire?

Legg inn av Dora Smith » 14 des 2006 14:12:53

I'm having trouble with where to find wills for Shaftesbury and Motcombe,
Dorset, for the 16th and 17th century. In articles about the families I am
researching, I have two wills cited in 1649 and 1658, both from something
called teh Bishop's Transcripts.

I don't understand - in other parts of England at that time I ahve wills
proved in the Chancery Court, the Prerogative Court, and the local
Archdeaconry.

Someone on the Dorset list says the Bishop's Transcripts aren't even
compiled until the 18th century.

In any case, I thought Bishop's Transcripts were nothing but copies of the
church's bmd records.

How would I actually find wills? I need the wills of the parents, aunts,
uncles and grandparents and other siblings of the people who wrote the two
wills that I have.

Yours,
Dora Smith
Austin, TX
tiggernut24@yahoo.com



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Dora Smith

Re: My question on wills in Dorset

Legg inn av Dora Smith » 14 des 2006 14:43:44

I don't know if I actually sent my post to Gen Medieval or to Sally Laine.
I don't believe the way reply on this list is set up!

This is in reference to a post I made a little while ago that hasn't posted
yet.

I don't have access to an original source, and I think the next source in
the chain of citations may have the location of the wills she cites
confused.

Next to the reference to HEnry Waters' Genealogical Gleanings in England,
for each will, I have, for the two wills in Shaftesbury and Motcombe, which
are located just two miles apart, the following references:

PCC 127 Fairfax
PCC 642 Wooten

Are these references to Prerogative Court? If so, how do I now research to
find wills of the parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles, and sibligns of
these individuals - and I particularly want the maiden name and parents of
the MOTHER of one of the people who wrote the wills. Chruch records begin
after that marriage occurred. Which may mean I need to locate who mentioned
her their wills.

Yours,
Dora Smith
Austin, TX
tiggernut24@yahoo.com



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Dora Smith

Need lookup in Ancestry.com in Waters' GEnealogical Gleaning

Legg inn av Dora Smith » 14 des 2006 14:46:37

I need a lookup in Henry Waters' Genealogical Gleanings in England, which is
in the British section at ancestry.com, even though it pertains exclusively
to New England ancestry. I have the American subscription but not the
world subscription.

I specifically need the information on William Tyce, Tice or Tise's will and
Peter King/ Kinge's will, on pages 1024, 1237, and 1089.

In addition to learning where the wills were actually located, I need all
information about William Tyce and Peter King that I don't already have,
which consists of abstracts from these articles.

Thanks alot!

Yours,
Dora Smith
Austin, TX
tiggernut24@yahoo.com



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John Townsend

Re: Where do I find 17th century wills for Dorsetshire?

Legg inn av John Townsend » 14 des 2006 19:27:48

Shaftesbury was in the Archdeaconry Court of Dorset, while Motcombe fell in
a "Peculiar" Court. Indexes to the 16th and 17th century wills for those
courts were printed in Vols. 22 and 53 of the British Record Society (1900,
1922), so the most pragmatic course of action seems to be to get access to
copies of those volumes. If you find mention in the indexes of wills which
are of interest, you could then obtain copies from the appropriate record
office, depending on the court.

I'm afraid I don't understand the allusion to the Bishop's Transcripts,
which would not normally contain mentions of wills.

Regards,

John Townsend
Antiquarian Bookseller/Genealogist
http://www.johntownsend.demon.co.uk

John Higgins

Re: Dowdall's of Kilfinny and Monkstown [was: English handwr

Legg inn av John Higgins » 14 des 2006 22:12:29

This is an interesting addition to the knowledge base on the confusing
Dowdall family.

Can it be confirmed that the Capt. John Dowdall who was commander of
Youghall in 1569 or 1580 was in fact the John Dowdall mentioned in the
previous note who was mar. to Elizabeth Southwell of Polylong? If this is
the case, a pedigree (of admittedly dubious reliability) in a very early
edition of Burke's Landed Gentry says that this couple had "several
daughters but no son". Honora the wife of Laurence Dowdall of Mounttown is
mentioned as the youngest daughter, while the second daughter is said to be
Elizabeth, wife of Sir Hardress Waller the regicide. The BLG pedigree also
mentions the eldest daughter Anne, said to be mar., not to Lt. Col. William
Pigott, but to "her relative John Southwell of Rathkeale". Sir John
Dowdall, the father of this particular Anne was apparently alive in 1623,
when he made a settlement of property to Anne and her husband. You mention
that Honora was a co-heir of Sir John Dowdall - is anything said about the
other co-heirs?

The early BLG pedigree doesn't distinguish very carefully between the
Dowdalls of Kilfinny and those of Mounttown and other localities, so it's
not to be relied upon as a sole source, but it is interesting....

With respect to the Southwells of Polylong, Sir Thomas is mentioned in
Dashwood's 1878 edition (with extensions) of the 1563 Visitation of Norfolk.
He is said to have mar. Anne, dau. of Sir Thomas Harris of Cornworthy,
Devon, and d. 12 June 1626, leaving two daughters [unnamed] as co-heirs.
The Devon connection here is interesting given Margaret's new notes on the
Devonshire connection of Capt. John Dowdall.

----- Original Message -----
From: "conaught2" <conaught2@charter.net>
To: "Merilyn Pedrick" <pedricks@ozemail.com.au>; <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 12:20 AM
Subject: Re: English handwriting 1500-1700 Dowdall's of Kilfinny and
Monkstown


Hi Merilyn,

It is interesting you should ask about the Kilfinny Dowdalls. I recently
returned from a five week research trip to Ireland and still have not sorted

through all the material I gathered. I always assumed the Kilfinny Dowdalls
were a branch off the County Louth Dowdalls, but recently I found that the
Sir John Dowdall referred to in Kilfinny was not the same Dowdall family as
the County Louth Dowdall family. Sir John Dowdall has been cropping up in
my research for years.
Sir John Dowdall of Kilfinny is the same Captain John Dowdall who served
in Elizabeth's army in Ireland. He was from England and had no connection

to the County Louth, Meath, Westmeath or Dublin Dowdalls. ( I imagine there
was a connection before the Normans invaded Ireland but that is not my area
of interest
. Captain John Dowdall was commander of Youghal, County Cork, in 1569
(possibly 1580)
He was was not related to the County Louth, Meath or Westmeath Dowdalls.
Captain Dowdall was from Shirwell Parish, Devon, England. Sir Arthur

Chichester was from Shirwell Parish and one of his principal tenants was
John and Johanne Dowdall. It appears their son James went to Ireland and
settled in the town of Dungannon, County Tyrone. Captain John Dowdall was
probably the youngest son and joined Elizabeth's army and served 30 years in
Ireland. (Seanchas Ard Mhacha, 2004 Edition, Kristich, Margaret, James
Dowdall of Drogheda An Irish Martyr - source was - (Dowdle, M.A., PhD.,
Harold L., Robert Dowdle, Sr., and his Descendants, Stevenson's Genealogy
Center, 230 West 1230 North, Provo, Utah, 1990 ).


Captain John Dowdall was knighted by Queen Elizabeth. He led her forces
in the Battle of Enniskillen and was commander of Dungannon Fort.



Hayes Manuscript, National Library of Ireland -



"Dowdall (Sir John)

London: Tract on the sate of Ireland, addressed to James I, by Sir John
Dowdall (of Kilfinny), eing an autorgraph copy of twhat he wrote in March

1600 for Queen Elizabeth when he was commander of Duncannon Fort, early
tempore James I
n.1714 p. 1456"



There are several listings for Sir John (Captain) Dowdall in the Hayes
Manuscript.



I don't have any information about Anne Dowdall but for Sir John (Captain)
his co-heir was Honora who d. 2nd Oct, 1638 and was buried in Monkstown,

County Meath. She was married to Lawrence Dowdall of Monkstown, who was
Registrar of Chancery. It is an interesting turn of events to find that
Captain John Dowdall's daughter married into the Louth/Meath Dowdalls.


The information regarding Honora Dowdall and the Monkstown Dowdalls is
taken from Irish Pedigrees p. 182 as well as the Dowdall Pedigrees Irish

National Library Manuscript Dept. MS 177 p. 109. Honora is also mentioned
in the will of Edward Dowdall of Monkstown found in Betham's Abstracts of
Perog. Wills. I haven't been able to dicipher all the words in the will.


According to your information Anne and Honora would be sisters. Hope this
is of some help.



Margaret









----- Original Message -----
From: "Merilyn Pedrick" <pedricks@ozemail.com.au
To: "Tim Powys-Lybbe" <tim@powys.org>; <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>;
"conaught2" <conaught2@charter.net
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 3:40 PM
Subject: Re: English handwriting 1500-1700




(Snip) <I have done extensive research on Archbishop George Dowdall
and
have a vast collection of records regarding him.



Dear Margaret

I was interested to see the references to the name Dowdall in Ireland,
and
wondered if you had information about other Irish Dowdalls.

Anne Dowdall of Kilfenny, Limerick, Ireland, was the wife of Lt. Col.
William Pigott who died in 1667. Her parents were Sir John Dowdall of
Kilfenny and Elizabeth Southwell of Polylong.

Do you have any information about these people and their ancestors?

Best wishes

Merilyn Pedrick

Aldgate, South Australia














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Leo van de Pas

Re: John Lord St. John of Blettso

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 14 des 2006 23:15:25

Some of the questions are easy to answer

The Complete Peerage Volume XI page 335
John St.John, 2nd Baron St.John of Bletso, he married 28 February 1474/5
Catherine Dormer. In 1582 he succeeded to the St.John of Bletsho title.

In my date base http://www.genealogics.org I have, at the moment, only one
daughter recorded for this couple and in 1596 when John died it was his
brother who became the 3rd Baron.

But, through his daughter Anne, John had interesting descendants, such as
Camilla Parker Bowles
Rachel Ward
Sarah Ferguson
Lady Diana Spencer

and many more.

I can only find that Bletso was in Bedfordshire.

With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia



----- Original Message -----
From: <jonesgenealogist@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 2:27 AM
Subject: John Lord St. John of Blettso


There is a listing on A2A, Catalogue Ref. 44M69 under "Jervoise family of
Heriard" dated 1587. A grant was made to "Rt. Hon. John Lord St. John of
Blettso and Dame Katherine his wife". Does anyone know of this John Lord
St. John of Blettso? Anyone know of the location of "Blettso"? The
Jervise family is shown to be from Hampsire. Much Thanks.
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security
tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web,
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John Higgins

Re: Dowdall's of Kilfinny and Monkstown [was: English handwr

Legg inn av John Higgins » 15 des 2006 02:30:22

I may have [partially] answered my own question - and generated another
question or two....

Margaret's useful note (attached below) says that her Irish source cited
Harold Dowdle's book on Robert Dowdle Sr [of Pennsylvania] and his
descendants. Dowdle's book describes the John Dowdall of Shirwell, Devon,
who went to Dungannon, Co. Tyrone [Ulster] under the aegis of Sir Arthur
Chichester and fought at the battle of Enniskillen in 1593. Dowdle says
this John was also the one, apparently of Kilfinny, Limerick, who was active
as a soldier in the southern province of Munster starting in at least 1580
(although it does not mention him as commander of Youghall).

Dowdle's book says that it was this Sir John (assumed to be one person) who
held the manor of Ardmore in Co. Waterford, which he had acquired (under
somewhat unclear circumstances) from Sir Walter Raleigh. Sir John is said,
in an inquest of Raleigh in 1605, to have "ejected" Raleigh from Ardmore in
35 Elizabeth [1593] and was in 1605 "late of Pilltown, Waterford". Dowdle
indicates that this Sir John, of Ardmore, made his will 30 Nov 1604, naming
his wife Margaret, his sons John (eldest), Charles, and Anthony, and
daughters Susannah Johanne, Phillipa, and Christian.

This seems clearly to be a distinct Dowdall family from the one mentioned in
my previous note, where Sir John Dowdall married Elizabeth Southwell of
Polylong and had no sons but several daughters, including Elizabeth, Honora,
and one or two Annes. It's possible (chronologically at least) that this
second Sir John was a son of the other Sir John, since Dowdall indicates
that the eldest son John was himself knighted in March 1618. But this would
be at best a tentative conclusion, since the Dowdall name does not appear to
be as uncommon as Dowdle would think. I also am not sure that Dowdle makes
a conclusive case that the John Dowdall of Ardmore, active in Munster, is
the same John Dowdall from Devon who went to Ulster - but I can be persuaded
otherwise!!

Can anyone shed any further light on this question?

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Higgins" <jthiggins@sbcglobal.net>
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 1:12 PM
Subject: Re: Dowdall's of Kilfinny and Monkstown [was: English
handwriting1500-1700]


This is an interesting addition to the knowledge base on the confusing
Dowdall family.

Can it be confirmed that the Capt. John Dowdall who was commander of
Youghall in 1569 or 1580 was in fact the John Dowdall mentioned in the
previous note who was mar. to Elizabeth Southwell of Polylong? If this is
the case, a pedigree (of admittedly dubious reliability) in a very early
edition of Burke's Landed Gentry says that this couple had "several
daughters but no son". Honora the wife of Laurence Dowdall of Mounttown
is
mentioned as the youngest daughter, while the second daughter is said to
be
Elizabeth, wife of Sir Hardress Waller the regicide. The BLG pedigree
also
mentions the eldest daughter Anne, said to be mar., not to Lt. Col.
William
Pigott, but to "her relative John Southwell of Rathkeale". Sir John
Dowdall, the father of this particular Anne was apparently alive in 1623,
when he made a settlement of property to Anne and her husband. You
mention
that Honora was a co-heir of Sir John Dowdall - is anything said about the
other co-heirs?

The early BLG pedigree doesn't distinguish very carefully between the
Dowdalls of Kilfinny and those of Mounttown and other localities, so it's
not to be relied upon as a sole source, but it is interesting....

With respect to the Southwells of Polylong, Sir Thomas is mentioned in
Dashwood's 1878 edition (with extensions) of the 1563 Visitation of
Norfolk.
He is said to have mar. Anne, dau. of Sir Thomas Harris of Cornworthy,
Devon, and d. 12 June 1626, leaving two daughters [unnamed] as co-heirs.
The Devon connection here is interesting given Margaret's new notes on the
Devonshire connection of Capt. John Dowdall.

----- Original Message -----
From: "conaught2" <conaught2@charter.net
To: "Merilyn Pedrick" <pedricks@ozemail.com.au>;
gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 12:20 AM
Subject: Re: English handwriting 1500-1700 Dowdall's of Kilfinny and
Monkstown


Hi Merilyn,

It is interesting you should ask about the Kilfinny Dowdalls. I
recently
returned from a five week research trip to Ireland and still have not
sorted
through all the material I gathered. I always assumed the Kilfinny
Dowdalls
were a branch off the County Louth Dowdalls, but recently I found that the
Sir John Dowdall referred to in Kilfinny was not the same Dowdall family
as
the County Louth Dowdall family. Sir John Dowdall has been cropping up in
my research for years.

Sir John Dowdall of Kilfinny is the same Captain John Dowdall who served
in Elizabeth's army in Ireland. He was from England and had no connection
to the County Louth, Meath, Westmeath or Dublin Dowdalls. ( I imagine
there
was a connection before the Normans invaded Ireland but that is not my
area
of interest

. Captain John Dowdall was commander of Youghal, County Cork, in 1569
(possibly 1580)
He was was not related to the County Louth, Meath or Westmeath
Dowdalls.
Captain Dowdall was from Shirwell Parish, Devon, England. Sir Arthur
Chichester was from Shirwell Parish and one of his principal tenants was
John and Johanne Dowdall. It appears their son James went to Ireland and
settled in the town of Dungannon, County Tyrone. Captain John Dowdall was
probably the youngest son and joined Elizabeth's army and served 30 years
in
Ireland. (Seanchas Ard Mhacha, 2004 Edition, Kristich, Margaret, James
Dowdall of Drogheda An Irish Martyr - source was - (Dowdle, M.A., PhD.,
Harold L., Robert Dowdle, Sr., and his Descendants, Stevenson's Genealogy
Center, 230 West 1230 North, Provo, Utah, 1990 ).



Captain John Dowdall was knighted by Queen Elizabeth. He led her forces
in the Battle of Enniskillen and was commander of Dungannon Fort.



Hayes Manuscript, National Library of Ireland -



"Dowdall (Sir John)

London: Tract on the sate of Ireland, addressed to James I, by Sir
John
Dowdall (of Kilfinny), eing an autorgraph copy of twhat he wrote in March
1600 for Queen Elizabeth when he was commander of Duncannon Fort, early
tempore James I

n.1714 p. 1456"



There are several listings for Sir John (Captain) Dowdall in the Hayes
Manuscript.



I don't have any information about Anne Dowdall but for Sir John
(Captain)
his co-heir was Honora who d. 2nd Oct, 1638 and was buried in Monkstown,
County Meath. She was married to Lawrence Dowdall of Monkstown, who was
Registrar of Chancery. It is an interesting turn of events to find that
Captain John Dowdall's daughter married into the Louth/Meath Dowdalls.



The information regarding Honora Dowdall and the Monkstown Dowdalls is
taken from Irish Pedigrees p. 182 as well as the Dowdall Pedigrees Irish
National Library Manuscript Dept. MS 177 p. 109. Honora is also mentioned
in the will of Edward Dowdall of Monkstown found in Betham's Abstracts of
Perog. Wills. I haven't been able to dicipher all the words in the will.



According to your information Anne and Honora would be sisters. Hope
this
is of some help.



Margaret









----- Original Message -----
From: "Merilyn Pedrick" <pedricks@ozemail.com.au
To: "Tim Powys-Lybbe" <tim@powys.org>; <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>;
"conaught2" <conaught2@charter.net
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 3:40 PM
Subject: Re: English handwriting 1500-1700




(Snip) <I have done extensive research on Archbishop George
Dowdall
and
have a vast collection of records regarding him.



Dear Margaret

I was interested to see the references to the name Dowdall in Ireland,
and
wondered if you had information about other Irish Dowdalls.

Anne Dowdall of Kilfenny, Limerick, Ireland, was the wife of Lt. Col.
William Pigott who died in 1667. Her parents were Sir John Dowdall of
Kilfenny and Elizabeth Southwell of Polylong.

Do you have any information about these people and their ancestors?

Best wishes

Merilyn Pedrick

Aldgate, South Australia














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-------------------------------
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Gjest

Re: Harold II

Legg inn av Gjest » 15 des 2006 02:35:03

Dear Reed,
Which Harold II ? England, Denmark or Norway? England`s
would most likely be a Russian prince.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

news.redshift.com

Re: Dowdall's of Kilfinny and Monkstown [was: Englishhandwri

Legg inn av news.redshift.com » 15 des 2006 04:08:43

Is it known if or how the Dowdall's of Newtown, Meath and Mount Town, Meath
relate to these other Dowdalls?

Hap


"John Higgins" <jthiggins@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:mailman.490.1166146396.6313.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
I may have [partially] answered my own question - and generated another
question or two....

Margaret's useful note (attached below) says that her Irish source cited
Harold Dowdle's book on Robert Dowdle Sr [of Pennsylvania] and his
descendants. Dowdle's book describes the John Dowdall of Shirwell, Devon,
who went to Dungannon, Co. Tyrone [Ulster] under the aegis of Sir Arthur
Chichester and fought at the battle of Enniskillen in 1593. Dowdle says
this John was also the one, apparently of Kilfinny, Limerick, who was
active
as a soldier in the southern province of Munster starting in at least 1580
(although it does not mention him as commander of Youghall).

Dowdle's book says that it was this Sir John (assumed to be one person)
who
held the manor of Ardmore in Co. Waterford, which he had acquired (under
somewhat unclear circumstances) from Sir Walter Raleigh. Sir John is
said,
in an inquest of Raleigh in 1605, to have "ejected" Raleigh from Ardmore
in
35 Elizabeth [1593] and was in 1605 "late of Pilltown, Waterford". Dowdle
indicates that this Sir John, of Ardmore, made his will 30 Nov 1604,
naming
his wife Margaret, his sons John (eldest), Charles, and Anthony, and
daughters Susannah Johanne, Phillipa, and Christian.

This seems clearly to be a distinct Dowdall family from the one mentioned
in
my previous note, where Sir John Dowdall married Elizabeth Southwell of
Polylong and had no sons but several daughters, including Elizabeth,
Honora,
and one or two Annes. It's possible (chronologically at least) that this
second Sir John was a son of the other Sir John, since Dowdall indicates
that the eldest son John was himself knighted in March 1618. But this
would
be at best a tentative conclusion, since the Dowdall name does not appear
to
be as uncommon as Dowdle would think. I also am not sure that Dowdle
makes
a conclusive case that the John Dowdall of Ardmore, active in Munster, is
the same John Dowdall from Devon who went to Ulster - but I can be
persuaded
otherwise!!

Can anyone shed any further light on this question?

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Higgins" <jthiggins@sbcglobal.net
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 1:12 PM
Subject: Re: Dowdall's of Kilfinny and Monkstown [was: English
handwriting1500-1700]


This is an interesting addition to the knowledge base on the confusing
Dowdall family.

Can it be confirmed that the Capt. John Dowdall who was commander of
Youghall in 1569 or 1580 was in fact the John Dowdall mentioned in the
previous note who was mar. to Elizabeth Southwell of Polylong? If this
is
the case, a pedigree (of admittedly dubious reliability) in a very early
edition of Burke's Landed Gentry says that this couple had "several
daughters but no son". Honora the wife of Laurence Dowdall of Mounttown
is
mentioned as the youngest daughter, while the second daughter is said to
be
Elizabeth, wife of Sir Hardress Waller the regicide. The BLG pedigree
also
mentions the eldest daughter Anne, said to be mar., not to Lt. Col.
William
Pigott, but to "her relative John Southwell of Rathkeale". Sir John
Dowdall, the father of this particular Anne was apparently alive in 1623,
when he made a settlement of property to Anne and her husband. You
mention
that Honora was a co-heir of Sir John Dowdall - is anything said about
the
other co-heirs?

The early BLG pedigree doesn't distinguish very carefully between the
Dowdalls of Kilfinny and those of Mounttown and other localities, so it's
not to be relied upon as a sole source, but it is interesting....

With respect to the Southwells of Polylong, Sir Thomas is mentioned in
Dashwood's 1878 edition (with extensions) of the 1563 Visitation of
Norfolk.
He is said to have mar. Anne, dau. of Sir Thomas Harris of Cornworthy,
Devon, and d. 12 June 1626, leaving two daughters [unnamed] as co-heirs.
The Devon connection here is interesting given Margaret's new notes on
the
Devonshire connection of Capt. John Dowdall.

----- Original Message -----
From: "conaught2" <conaught2@charter.net
To: "Merilyn Pedrick" <pedricks@ozemail.com.au>;
gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 12:20 AM
Subject: Re: English handwriting 1500-1700 Dowdall's of Kilfinny and
Monkstown


Hi Merilyn,

It is interesting you should ask about the Kilfinny Dowdalls. I
recently
returned from a five week research trip to Ireland and still have not
sorted
through all the material I gathered. I always assumed the Kilfinny
Dowdalls
were a branch off the County Louth Dowdalls, but recently I found that
the
Sir John Dowdall referred to in Kilfinny was not the same Dowdall family
as
the County Louth Dowdall family. Sir John Dowdall has been cropping up
in
my research for years.

Sir John Dowdall of Kilfinny is the same Captain John Dowdall who
served
in Elizabeth's army in Ireland. He was from England and had no
connection
to the County Louth, Meath, Westmeath or Dublin Dowdalls. ( I imagine
there
was a connection before the Normans invaded Ireland but that is not my
area
of interest

. Captain John Dowdall was commander of Youghal, County Cork, in 1569
(possibly 1580)
He was was not related to the County Louth, Meath or Westmeath
Dowdalls.
Captain Dowdall was from Shirwell Parish, Devon, England. Sir Arthur
Chichester was from Shirwell Parish and one of his principal tenants was
John and Johanne Dowdall. It appears their son James went to Ireland and
settled in the town of Dungannon, County Tyrone. Captain John Dowdall
was
probably the youngest son and joined Elizabeth's army and served 30 years
in
Ireland. (Seanchas Ard Mhacha, 2004 Edition, Kristich, Margaret, James
Dowdall of Drogheda An Irish Martyr - source was - (Dowdle, M.A., PhD.,
Harold L., Robert Dowdle, Sr., and his Descendants, Stevenson's Genealogy
Center, 230 West 1230 North, Provo, Utah, 1990 ).



Captain John Dowdall was knighted by Queen Elizabeth. He led her
forces
in the Battle of Enniskillen and was commander of Dungannon Fort.



Hayes Manuscript, National Library of Ireland -



"Dowdall (Sir John)

London: Tract on the sate of Ireland, addressed to James I, by Sir
John
Dowdall (of Kilfinny), eing an autorgraph copy of twhat he wrote in March
1600 for Queen Elizabeth when he was commander of Duncannon Fort, early
tempore James I

n.1714 p. 1456"



There are several listings for Sir John (Captain) Dowdall in the Hayes
Manuscript.



I don't have any information about Anne Dowdall but for Sir John
(Captain)
his co-heir was Honora who d. 2nd Oct, 1638 and was buried in Monkstown,
County Meath. She was married to Lawrence Dowdall of Monkstown, who was
Registrar of Chancery. It is an interesting turn of events to find that
Captain John Dowdall's daughter married into the Louth/Meath Dowdalls.



The information regarding Honora Dowdall and the Monkstown Dowdalls is
taken from Irish Pedigrees p. 182 as well as the Dowdall Pedigrees Irish
National Library Manuscript Dept. MS 177 p. 109. Honora is also
mentioned
in the will of Edward Dowdall of Monkstown found in Betham's Abstracts
of
Perog. Wills. I haven't been able to dicipher all the words in the will.



According to your information Anne and Honora would be sisters. Hope
this
is of some help.



Margaret









----- Original Message -----
From: "Merilyn Pedrick" <pedricks@ozemail.com.au
To: "Tim Powys-Lybbe" <tim@powys.org>; <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>;
"conaught2" <conaught2@charter.net
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 3:40 PM
Subject: Re: English handwriting 1500-1700




(Snip) <I have done extensive research on Archbishop George
Dowdall
and
have a vast collection of records regarding him.



Dear Margaret

I was interested to see the references to the name Dowdall in
Ireland,
and
wondered if you had information about other Irish Dowdalls.

Anne Dowdall of Kilfenny, Limerick, Ireland, was the wife of Lt. Col.
William Pigott who died in 1667. Her parents were Sir John Dowdall
of
Kilfenny and Elizabeth Southwell of Polylong.

Do you have any information about these people and their ancestors?

Best wishes

Merilyn Pedrick

Aldgate, South Australia














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GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message


-------------------------------
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Gjest

Re: Harold II

Legg inn av Gjest » 15 des 2006 07:28:24

Jwc1870@aol.com wrote:
Dear Reed,
Which Harold II ? England, Denmark or Norway? England`s
would most likely be a Russian prince.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

The heir to Harold II in England was Henry VII.

Harold's sons fled to Ireland in 1066.

conaught2

Re: Dowdall's of Kilfinny and Monkstown [was: Englishhandwri

Legg inn av conaught2 » 15 des 2006 10:40:30

John,

I am sorry but I can't help you with Captain John Dowdall's family. I used
Robert Dowdle's very useful book as a resource for an article I wrote about
James Dowdall of Drogheda an Irish Martyr, for Seanchas Ard Mhacha (Armagh
Diocesan Historical Journal). Robert Dowdle is correct that Dowdall is not
a common name. There are two distinct Dowdall families in Ireland. Captain
(Sir John ) John Dowdall has no connection (other than his daughter Honora
marrying Lawrence Dowdall of Monkstown) to the County Louth Dowdall family.
Captain John Dowdall came to Ireland to serve in Elizabeth's army about 1560
several hundred years after the Louth Dowdalls came to Ireland shortly
after the Norman invasion of Ireland. The reference to Youghal was not
from Robert Dowdle's book. It was from Lives of the Irish Saints and
Martyrs by DP Conyngham, 1870, pp 42-43.

It looks as if the second Sir John Dowdall was probably Captain John
Dowdall's son. It might interest you that Ardmore was a few miles from
Youghal where Captain John Dowdall commanded for sometime. In fact the road
running north-westward from Ardmore to Dungarvan-Youghal Road and the main
road crosse the Youghal Bridge.

The first mention of the Dowdall family in Ireland was April 1215 when the
release of William de Duvedal was ordered, he had been taken prisoner in
the caslte of Carrickfergus. He probably was the ancestor of all the
Dowdalls of Louth, Meath, Westmeath and Dublin. It is this William Dowdall's
family which originated in Castletown Cooly, County Louth and Dundalk,
(members of this branch also moved into Ardee). Walter Dowdall living 1330)
of Dundalk's younger brother William a younger brother established the
Termonfeckin Dowdall line. It was the younger sons of the Termonfeckin
branch which moved into Drogheda a few miles away. The Dowdall family
origingally took care of the lands for the deVerdon family and as they
intermarried with other Norman families in the Pale they gained more land.
In fact the name Lawrence - Launcelot came from the FitzWiliam family when
one of the Dowdalls married into their family. This is the Glaspistol
branch of the family. Between the Glaspistol and Termonfeckin families they
married into more land and moved into Monkstown, Brownstown and Causetown.

The Dowdalls of Louth were Catholic and Captain John Dowdall and his brother
were Protestant, at that point I would assume they were COE which was the
COI in Ireland. My branch of the Dowdalls moved into South Derry from
County Louth after the Battle of the Boyne in the 1690s. Today there are
Dowdalls in Dungannon who are descendents of James and probably Captain
Dowdall.

The Hayes Manuscript in the National Library in Dublin states that

"Dowdall (Sir John)

London: Tract on the sate of Ireland, addressed to James I, by Sir John
Dowdall (of Kilfinny), being an autograph copy of twhat he wrote in March
1600 for Queen Elizabeth when he was commander of Duncannon Fort, early
tempore James I

n.1714 p. 1456"

I have a copy of two of his letters, one to Queen Elizabeth in 1599 and the
other to James in 1604. Unfortunately he doesn't discuss anything personal
or anything about property. I have also looked at the Tudor Irish Fiants
and couldn't find anything about his wife.

There is a reference to Captain John Dowdall's wife in Samuel Lewis's
Topigraphical Dictionary of Ireland, 1837

"In the R. C. divisions it forms part of the union or district of Croagh and
Kilfenny; the chapel is a small edifice. There is a private school, in which
about 140 children are instructed. There are some remains of the old church,
in which is a tablet to the Pigot family; and near it are the remains of
Ballynakill House, which, having been converted into a barrack, was burnt by
the Rockites in 1822. At the foot of a hill are the remains of Kilfenny
Castle, built by Cormac Mac Einery in the reign of John; it afterwards
belonged to the Kildare family, by whom it was forfeited in the reign of
Elizabeth. It was besieged by the Irish under Col. Purcell, in 1641, and
resolutely defended by the widow of Sir John Dowdall for some time, but
ultimately surrendered. Near the boundary of the parish are the picturesque
ruins of Finnitterstown castle, which was also forfeited by the same family
in 1598."



In another reference it refers to the Lady Elizabeth Dowdall raising men to
fight against the rebels in 1641. This would tend to support your
information about John Dowdall's wife being Elizabeth instead of Margare,
unless he was married twice. I had that mystery regarding James Dowdall,
Chief Justice of Ireland. In all the references it referred to his wife
Isabel Thunder. It was not until I was in Ireland and I uncovered some
information and found out that James Dowdall was Isabel's second husband.


What probably adds to your confusion about the Dowdall family is that there
were several Sir John Dowdalls of the Louth Dowdalls. There was Sir Johns
of Dundalk and Sir John of Glaspistol. The pedigrees in the National
Library deal with this Dowdall family and not the Kilfinny Dowdalls,
although Kilfinny is mentioned because of Honora marrying into the Monkstown
Dowdalls.

Archbishop George Dowdall was Archishop of Armagh and Primate of All of
Ireland from 1543-1551; 1553-1558.
I just found a very interesting reference telling about George Dowdall's
body being sent back to Ireland two days after his death in London. In his
epitagh written at the time of his death a priest stated his body was
brought back to Ireland, but it was quite intersting to read about the
event in somebody's diary of the time.

"The xvij day of August whent from the Jorge (fn. 5) in Lumbard strett the
bysshope of Yrland, (fn. 6) [and was] cared by water unto (blank), to be
bered ther."

This is from The Diary of Henry Machyn: Citizen and Merchant-Taylor of
London (1550-1563) (1848), pp. 169-84.

I hope this was of some help.

Margaret

Douglas Richardson

Re: Yet Another Complete Peerage Correction: Tateshale-Orreb

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 15 des 2006 18:17:57

Dear John, Clive, etc. ~

As a followup to one of my previous post on the Tateshale family, I can
add the following information. Robert III de Tateshale (c. 1223-1273)
married Nichole de Grey, daughter of John de Grey, of Shirland,
Derbyshire, by his wife, Emme, daughter of Roger de Cauz. Nichole's
maritagium was the manor of Shalbourne, Berkshire, previously a Cauz
family manor [Reference: Paget (1957) 524:3-4]. Nichole de Grey
survived her husband, and had the manors of Topcroft, Norfolk, Bredon,
Leicestershire, Candlesby and Maltby, Lincolnshire assigned for her
dower.

One online source states that Nichole de Grey, widow of Robert de
Tateshale, died 30 May 1277. I have not verified this date. The
online source in question is a database devoted to the ancestry of the
late DeWolf "Stan" Stanley, of California, and his sister, Lorraine
Ellsworth Stanley. This database may be accessed at the following
weblink:

http://ourwebsite.org/dewolf/stanley-p//index.shtml

The home page of this website states that Stan "was a loving father,
husband, and grandfather." He was also a good friend to me and a great
human being. He was especially kind to my children. It was an honor
to have known him.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Douglas Richardson

Re: Yet Another Complete Peerage Correction: Tateshale-Orreb

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 15 des 2006 21:19:54

Dear John, Clive, etc. ~

As a followup to one of my previous post on the Tateshale family, I can
add the following information. Robert III de Tateshale (c. 1223-1273)
married Nichole de Grey, daughter of John de Grey, of Shirland,
Derbyshire, by his wife, Emme, daughter of Roger de Cauz. Nichole's
maritagium was the manor of Shalbourne, Berkshire, previously a Cauz
family manor [Reference: Paget (1957) 524:3-4]. Nichole de Grey
survived her husband, and had the manors of Topcroft, Norfolk, Bredon,
Leicestershire, Candlesby and Maltby, Lincolnshire assigned for her
dower.

One online source states that Nichole de Grey, widow of Robert de
Tateshale, died 30 May 1277. I have not verified this date. The
online source in question is a database devoted to the ancestry of the
late DeWolf "Stan" Stanley, of California, and his sister, Lorraine
Ellsworth Stanley. This database may be accessed at the following
weblink:

http://ourwebsite.org/dewolf/stanley-p//index.shtml

The home page of this website states that Stan "was a loving father,
husband, and grandfather." He was also a great human being and a good
friend to me. He was especially kind to my children. It was an honor
to have known him.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Paul K Davis

RE: Harold II

Legg inn av Paul K Davis » 15 des 2006 21:49:01

One can list descendents, of which there are quite a few, but "heir" is
undefined. First, it depends on the rule of inheritance or succession,
which varies with time, culture, and legal enactments. Second, most rules
of succession depend upon birth order, and in many cases we do not have
that information. Finally, many rules of inheritance depend on
"legitimacy", which may be disputed depending upon the religious beliefs of
the person making the decision.

-- PKD [Paul K Davis, pkd-gm@earthlink.net]


[Original Message]
From: Reed <aereed3@yahoo.com
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Date: 12/14/2006 5:11:57 PM
Subject: Harold II

Does anyone have the heir of the line of Harold II circa 1500? It
seems my attempts to use various web sites always give different
results and this is my appeal for help or suggestions. Thanks in
advance.

Reed


-------------------------------
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Gjest

re: Yet Another Complete Peerage Correction: Tateshale-Orreb

Legg inn av Gjest » 15 des 2006 22:16:02

Friday, 15 December, 2006


Dear Doug,

Thanks for that identification, and the cite from Paget. This
has corroboration from Robin Oggins, who wrote in his study of
falconry:

' Roger de Cauz (III), an active falconer, [who] held over £25
in inherited land by sergeanty tenure in Berkshire, Wiltshire,
Buckinghamshire, and Northamptonshire... married Nicholaa de
la Legh, an heiress with lands in Bedfordshire and
Huntingdonshire - a marriage arranged with held of [Roger's]
brother Geoffrey, one of King John's clerks, who obtained from
the king in 1214 the promise of 'the first marriage worth
£10 or £15 in land in England' for Roger...
... Emma de Cauz (II), daughter of Roger... and Nicholaa..
[married] John de Grey, younger son of the Henry de Grey who
held Codnor in Derbyshire and land in Thurrock, Essex, in
John's reign...... John's and Emma's son Reginald de Grey
retained the Cauz falcontry sergeanties in Water Eaton, Bucks.
and Easton Grey, Wilts. while the £20 [Cauz] sergeanty in
Shalbourn, Wilts., went to a daughter who was married to Robert
de Tattershall (son of Robert f. Walter f. Robert de
Tattershall who held a butlery sergeanty in
Essex). ' [1]

Shalbourne, Berks. was subsequently 'relocated' to Wiltshire,
which could make for some mildly complicated research in VCH or
elsewhere.

Interestingly, there's still the detail in my notes from the
Tateshal article in Complete Peerage which says of Robert de
Tateshal (d. 16 Jul 1249) that he may have had a 2nd wife, and
that she 'may have been Iseult, as an Iseult de Tateshale was in
a plea of dower in 1265' [CP Vol XII/1, Tateshal, p. 649n].
Since it is somewhat unlikely (not impossible) that this Robert
married his son's sister-in-law, this is more likely a reference
to the elder Robert's long-lived mother Iseult Pantulf.

Cheers,

John *


NOTES

[1] Robin S. Oggins, The Kings and Their Hawks: Falconry in
Medieval England (New Haven: Yale Univ. Press, 2004), p. 80.


* John P. Ravilious

Clive West

Re: Yet Another Complete Peerage Correction: Tateshale-Orreb

Legg inn av Clive West » 16 des 2006 00:00:50

Dear John,

The following item from the curia regis rolls confirms your view that the
Isolda who applied for dower in 1265 was the widow of Walter de Tateshal:
Curia Regis Roll 180. Hilary, 51 Henry III, 1267, m. 14 d. Leyc. Isolda, who
was the wife of Walter de Tateshale, demands v. Robert de Tateshale a third
part of a messuage, 200 acres of land, 24 of meadow and two parts of two
vivaries, 2 watermills and 33 virgates of land which are held in villeinage,
£9 4s. 0d. rent, 200 acres of pasture in Bredon, with land in Holwell,
Somerby and Dalby as dower. Robert came and said that she ought not to have
dower, because the said Walter, formerly her husband, neither on the day of
marriage, nor ever after, held the tenements in fee so that he could dower
her, but for term of his life only. Order to summon a jury. Afterwards she
asks leave to withdraw from her suit, and she has it.

Regards,

Clive West

----- Original Message -----
From: <Therav3@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL@rootsweb.com>
Cc: <royalancestry@msn.com>; <clivewest@ukonline.co.uk>
Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 9:14 PM
Subject: re: Yet Another Complete Peerage Correction: Tateshale-Orreby


Friday, 15 December, 2006


Dear Doug,

Thanks for that identification, and the cite from Paget. This
has corroboration from Robin Oggins, who wrote in his study of
falconry:

' Roger de Cauz (III), an active falconer, [who] held over £25
in inherited land by sergeanty tenure in Berkshire, Wiltshire,
Buckinghamshire, and Northamptonshire... married Nicholaa de
la Legh, an heiress with lands in Bedfordshire and
Huntingdonshire - a marriage arranged with held of [Roger's]
brother Geoffrey, one of King John's clerks, who obtained from
the king in 1214 the promise of 'the first marriage worth
£10 or £15 in land in England' for Roger...
... Emma de Cauz (II), daughter of Roger... and Nicholaa..
[married] John de Grey, younger son of the Henry de Grey who
held Codnor in Derbyshire and land in Thurrock, Essex, in
John's reign...... John's and Emma's son Reginald de Grey
retained the Cauz falcontry sergeanties in Water Eaton, Bucks.
and Easton Grey, Wilts. while the £20 [Cauz] sergeanty in
Shalbourn, Wilts., went to a daughter who was married to Robert
de Tattershall (son of Robert f. Walter f. Robert de
Tattershall who held a butlery sergeanty in
Essex). ' [1]

Shalbourne, Berks. was subsequently 'relocated' to Wiltshire,
which could make for some mildly complicated research in VCH or
elsewhere.

Interestingly, there's still the detail in my notes from the
Tateshal article in Complete Peerage which says of Robert de
Tateshal (d. 16 Jul 1249) that he may have had a 2nd wife, and
that she 'may have been Iseult, as an Iseult de Tateshale was in
a plea of dower in 1265' [CP Vol XII/1, Tateshal, p. 649n].
Since it is somewhat unlikely (not impossible) that this Robert
married his son's sister-in-law, this is more likely a reference
to the elder Robert's long-lived mother Iseult Pantulf.

Cheers,

John *


NOTES

[1] Robin S. Oggins, The Kings and Their Hawks: Falconry in
Medieval England (New Haven: Yale Univ. Press, 2004), p. 80.


* John P. Ravilious

Gjest

Re: Complete Peerage Addition: Amice de Camville, wife of Wi

Legg inn av Gjest » 16 des 2006 02:24:02

In a message dated 12/13/06 11:16:09 AM Pacific Standard Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:

<< Amice de Camville, widow of Henry de Pomeroy, of Berry Pomeroy, Devon,
and daughter of Geoffrey de Camville, Knt., 1st Lord Camville, by an
unidentified first wife. >>

Why unknown? Why not Maud de Brian ?
Thanks
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Complete Peerage Addition: Amice de Camville, wife of Wi

Legg inn av Gjest » 16 des 2006 02:32:01

In a message dated 12/13/06 11:16:09 AM Pacific Standard Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:

<< Thus, Amice de Camville must be the child of
Sir Geoffrey de Camville by a hitherto unknown first wife; Maud de
Bryan would necessarily become Sir Geoffrey de Camville's second wife. >>

After I sent my last email, I see your reasoning and agree that it makes
sense. However Leo has Maud de Brian d in 1279. The chronology would just allow
Amicia to squeeze through as a child by a next rather than previous, marriage.

Will Johhnson

Gjest

Re: Complete Peerage Addition: Elizabeth Fitzpayn, wife of T

Legg inn av Gjest » 16 des 2006 03:02:02

In a message dated 12/14/06 12:26:04 AM Pacific Standard Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:

<< It appears, however, that Sir Robert Fitzpayn had yet another daughter
who predeceased him, namely Elizabeth Fitzpayn, who married (1st)
Thomas de Audley, Knt., of Kingston and Tawstock, Devon, and (2nd)
shortly after 14 March 1386/7 (date of marriage arrangements) Hugh
Courtenay, Knt. (died 5 or 6 March 1425), of Goodrington (in Paignton),
South Allington, and Stancombe (in Sherford), Devon, Knight of the
Shire for Devonshire, Sheriff of Devonshire, 1418-1419 [Reference:
Roskell, House of Commons 1386-1421 2 (1992): 668-670 (biog. of Sir
Hugh Courtenay)].

Evidence of Elizabeth Fitzpayn's parentage is provided by her own
inquisition post mortem which was taken some years after her death on 8
March 1399. The inquisition indicates that Elizabeth, late wife of
Thomas de Audley, died 1 June 1394 [sic], and that her heir was Robert
de Ponynges, "aged 19 years at the feast of St. Andrew past [30
November] ... son of Isabel her sister." The inquisition further
states that Elizabeth and her husband, Thomas de Audley, had been
seised of lands at Stogursey, Wacher, and Durburgh, Somerset, which
lands came into the king's hands by the minority of Robert de Ponynges
as by the custody of the manor of Stogursey, Somerset which was held of
the king in chief [Reference: Cal. IPMs 17 (1988): 519-520]. >>


If Elizabeth, wife of Hugh Courtenay (d Mar 1425) of Goodrington, died in
1399 per the above, then could she be the same "Elizabeth" who is identified as
the first wife of Hugh Courteney, knighted in 1395 of Haccombe, died 15 Mar
1425 (genealogics)

See also <a href =
"http://content.ancestry.com/Browse/BookView.aspx?dbid=49030&iid=FLHG_AncestralRoots-0033">Ancestral Roots, pg 9</a>

This later Hugh is said to be son of
Edward /Courtenay/ of Godlington by Emeline /Dawney/

Is this the same Elizabeth ? It would be a bit odd to have TWO people named
Hugh Courtenay, both dying in the same month. This later Hugh, later marred
Philippa l'Archdekne "co-heir of her father" and thereby had a daughter Joan who
m Nicholas Carew of Mohuns Ottery (d 1447)

This Joan Courtenay is assigned a birthyear of 1411 which certainly allows
Hugh's firstwife to have died in 1399. However this first wife is also,
elsewhere identified as Elizabeth COGAN dau of Miles Cogan, which identification,
this would presumably correct, else giving this Hugh four wives.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Maud de Furnival, wife (2ndly) of Sir Roger la Zouche of

Legg inn av Gjest » 16 des 2006 03:36:02

In a message dated 12/14/06 4:07:20 AM Pacific Standard Time, therav3@aol.com
writes:

<< If you trace the descent of Buckenham through Cromwell, Clifton,
and the Knyvett family, you will see a descent to Jane Lowe, wife of
Henry Sewall and Charles Calvert, Lord Baltimore. >>

To be specific this?
Joan Tateshull + Sir Robert Driby
Alice de Driby + William Bernake, Knt of Blatherwick d 4.1339
John Bernake, Knt d 20 Mar 1345 + Joan Marmion d bef 14 Oct 1361
Maud Bernake of Tattershall d 10 Apr 1419 + Ralph, 1st Lord Cromwell d 27 Aug
1398
Elizabeth Cromwell d 1394 + John de Clifton, 1st Lord Buckingham d 10 Aug 1388
Constantine Clifton, 2nd Lord Buckingham d 1395 + Margaret Howard b 1383
Elizabeth Clifton d 1441 + John Knyvett d 9 Nov 1445
Sir John Knyvett b ? d ? + ?
Sir William Knyvett d 2 Dec 1515 + Alice Grey d 1474
Anne Knyvett b 1457/74 d aft 1540 + John Thwaites, Esq of Thwaites and Denton
d 1503/7
Christopher Thwaites d 1470/91 + ?
William Thwaites of Oulton b 1487/1508 + Alice Garneys b 1480/1509
Winifred Thwaites b 1525 + George Pierrepont of Holme Pierrepont d 21 mar
1564/5
Isabella Pierrepont b 1555 + Sir John Harpur of Swarkston d 7/8 Oct 1622
Jane Harpur b 1568/79 + Patrick Lowe
Vincent Lowe bap 1 nov 1592 Denby d aft 1649 + Anne Cavendish b 1596/1601
Jane Lowe bap 14 Oct 1633 Denby +2 Charles Calvert, 3rd Lord Baltimore d 21
Feb 1714

Is that the line you had in mind John ?
Thanks
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: John Lord St. John of Blettso

Legg inn av Gjest » 16 des 2006 03:40:02

Sonia do you have any specific citation to *when* John St John married
Catherine Dormer? All I have todate is "AFT 28 Feb 1575"

This couple had at least one daughter Anne who I have married to Willliam
Baron Howard of Effingham on 7 Feb 1597 at Chelsea (http://www.genealogics.org)

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Italian Savoy muddle in ES

Legg inn av Gjest » 16 des 2006 03:48:02

Who then is "James Count of Piedmont d 1367" who has listed for father
"Philip Prince of Achaia d 1334" who himself has listed for father "Thomas Count of
Piedmont"

Surely this Philip must be the same person as the one you are saying married
Isabelle de /Villehardouin/ , Princess of Achaia and Morea

But I did not see any "James" listed in the list of children that you gave.
Thanks
Will Johnson

John P. Ravilious

Re: Yet Another Complete Peerage Correction: Tateshale-Orreb

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 16 des 2006 03:57:27

Dear Clive,

Thanks much for that. If this is the specific document the
author of the CP article had in mind, it's hard to imagine confusing
'Walter' for Robert.

It's good to have another Iseult/Isolda mystery resolved. Much
obliged.

Cheers,

John



Clive West wrote:
Dear John,

The following item from the curia regis rolls confirms your view that the
Isolda who applied for dower in 1265 was the widow of Walter de Tateshal:
Curia Regis Roll 180. Hilary, 51 Henry III, 1267, m. 14 d. Leyc. Isolda, who
was the wife of Walter de Tateshale, demands v. Robert de Tateshale a third
part of a messuage, 200 acres of land, 24 of meadow and two parts of two
vivaries, 2 watermills and 33 virgates of land which are held in villeinage,
£9 4s. 0d. rent, 200 acres of pasture in Bredon, with land in Holwell,
Somerby and Dalby as dower. Robert came and said that she ought not to have
dower, because the said Walter, formerly her husband, neither on the day of
marriage, nor ever after, held the tenements in fee so that he could dower
her, but for term of his life only. Order to summon a jury. Afterwards she
asks leave to withdraw from her suit, and she has it.

Regards,

Clive West

----- Original Message -----
From: <Therav3@aol.com
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL@rootsweb.com
Cc: <royalancestry@msn.com>; <clivewest@ukonline.co.uk
Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 9:14 PM
Subject: re: Yet Another Complete Peerage Correction: Tateshale-Orreby


Friday, 15 December, 2006


Dear Doug,

Thanks for that identification, and the cite from Paget. This
has corroboration from Robin Oggins, who wrote in his study of
falconry:

' Roger de Cauz (III), an active falconer, [who] held over £25
in inherited land by sergeanty tenure in Berkshire, Wiltshire,
Buckinghamshire, and Northamptonshire... married Nicholaa de
la Legh, an heiress with lands in Bedfordshire and
Huntingdonshire - a marriage arranged with held of [Roger's]
brother Geoffrey, one of King John's clerks, who obtained from
the king in 1214 the promise of 'the first marriage worth
£10 or £15 in land in England' for Roger...
... Emma de Cauz (II), daughter of Roger... and Nicholaa..
[married] John de Grey, younger son of the Henry de Grey who
held Codnor in Derbyshire and land in Thurrock, Essex, in
John's reign...... John's and Emma's son Reginald de Grey
retained the Cauz falcontry sergeanties in Water Eaton, Bucks.
and Easton Grey, Wilts. while the £20 [Cauz] sergeanty in
Shalbourn, Wilts., went to a daughter who was married to Robert
de Tattershall (son of Robert f. Walter f. Robert de
Tattershall who held a butlery sergeanty in
Essex). ' [1]

Shalbourne, Berks. was subsequently 'relocated' to Wiltshire,
which could make for some mildly complicated research in VCH or
elsewhere.

Interestingly, there's still the detail in my notes from the
Tateshal article in Complete Peerage which says of Robert de
Tateshal (d. 16 Jul 1249) that he may have had a 2nd wife, and
that she 'may have been Iseult, as an Iseult de Tateshale was in
a plea of dower in 1265' [CP Vol XII/1, Tateshal, p. 649n].
Since it is somewhat unlikely (not impossible) that this Robert
married his son's sister-in-law, this is more likely a reference
to the elder Robert's long-lived mother Iseult Pantulf.

Cheers,

John *


NOTES

[1] Robin S. Oggins, The Kings and Their Hawks: Falconry in
Medieval England (New Haven: Yale Univ. Press, 2004), p. 80.


* John P. Ravilious

John P. Ravilious

Re: Maud de Furnival, wife (2ndly) of Sir Roger la Zouche of

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 16 des 2006 03:59:18

Dear Will,

That's exactly the descent to Jane Lowe I had in mind.

I have yet to find any problem with these links (although details
have been resolved from time to time).

Cheers,

John




WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 12/14/06 4:07:20 AM Pacific Standard Time, therav3@aol.com
writes:

If you trace the descent of Buckenham through Cromwell, Clifton,
and the Knyvett family, you will see a descent to Jane Lowe, wife of
Henry Sewall and Charles Calvert, Lord Baltimore.

To be specific this?
Joan Tateshull + Sir Robert Driby
Alice de Driby + William Bernake, Knt of Blatherwick d 4.1339
John Bernake, Knt d 20 Mar 1345 + Joan Marmion d bef 14 Oct 1361
Maud Bernake of Tattershall d 10 Apr 1419 + Ralph, 1st Lord Cromwell d 27 Aug
1398
Elizabeth Cromwell d 1394 + John de Clifton, 1st Lord Buckingham d 10 Aug 1388
Constantine Clifton, 2nd Lord Buckingham d 1395 + Margaret Howard b 1383
Elizabeth Clifton d 1441 + John Knyvett d 9 Nov 1445
Sir John Knyvett b ? d ? + ?
Sir William Knyvett d 2 Dec 1515 + Alice Grey d 1474
Anne Knyvett b 1457/74 d aft 1540 + John Thwaites, Esq of Thwaites and Denton
d 1503/7
Christopher Thwaites d 1470/91 + ?
William Thwaites of Oulton b 1487/1508 + Alice Garneys b 1480/1509
Winifred Thwaites b 1525 + George Pierrepont of Holme Pierrepont d 21 mar
1564/5
Isabella Pierrepont b 1555 + Sir John Harpur of Swarkston d 7/8 Oct 1622
Jane Harpur b 1568/79 + Patrick Lowe
Vincent Lowe bap 1 nov 1592 Denby d aft 1649 + Anne Cavendish b 1596/1601
Jane Lowe bap 14 Oct 1633 Denby +2 Charles Calvert, 3rd Lord Baltimore d 21
Feb 1714

Is that the line you had in mind John ?
Thanks
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Bari or Bar?

Legg inn av Gjest » 16 des 2006 04:01:03

Bari and Bar are not the same place.

Bari is in the region of Apulia in Italy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bari

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Jane Lowe 1633-1701

Legg inn av Gjest » 16 des 2006 04:09:02

I have all 16 of Jane Lowe's great-great-grandparents. I'm only missing the
wife of Vincent Lowe who is in position 16 in her chart. In fact the Lowe
family in general is very sketchy and shady compared to the fact that two of the
8 men were Earls, and another one a Judge.

Jane's grandmother Jane Harpur and Jane Harpur's parents Sir John Harpur and
Isabella Pierrepont are only four steps from Richard Cecil.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: first wife of Isaac II, Byzantine emperor

Legg inn av Gjest » 16 des 2006 04:13:02

In a message dated 12/13/06 7:32:21 PM Pacific Standard Time,
pkd-gm@earthlink.net writes:

<< She presumably died by 1185, when Isaac married
Marguerite, daughter of king Bela II of Hungary. >>

This one is called "Bela III" not II
King of Hungary from 1173 to 96 (when he died)

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: first wife of Isaac II, Byzantine emperor

Legg inn av Gjest » 16 des 2006 05:14:45

In a message dated 12/13/06 7:32:21 PM Pacific Standard Time,
pkd-gm@earthlink.net writes:

<< The first was the mother of his daughter Irene (later
renamed Maria), who married the German emperor Philip of Swabia, and is the
identified ancestress of a large number of people. >>

Are you sure he was "emperor"? He is only called "Roman King" (elected 1198)
in Heraldry, which usually makes a clear distinction between King and Emperor
in this regard.

Will

Gjest

Re: Yet Another Complete Peerage Correction: Tateshale-Orreb

Legg inn av Gjest » 16 des 2006 05:16:02

In a message dated 12/15/06 9:21:24 AM Pacific Standard Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:

<< One online source states that Nichole de Grey, widow of Robert de
Tateshale, died 30 May 1277. >>

That is better than nothing, but should say "AFT 30 May 1277 citing AR here
<a href =
"http://content.ancestry.com/Browse/BookView.aspx?dbid=49030&iid=FLHG_AncestralRoots-0049">Ancestral Roots, 8th Edition, Line 16C, pg 25</a>
which states:

"28 Robert de Tateshal, b 1222, d 22 July 1273; m bef 1249, Nichole, liv 30
May 1277 (CP XII(1): 649-650)

So she was "living" on 30 May 1277 indicating some kind of document. She
didn't die *on* that date.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Italian Savoy muddle in ES

Legg inn av Gjest » 16 des 2006 13:10:16

James is a bad translation for Giacomo.
Giacomo/Jacques/Jacob died 14.5.1367.
I am not 100% sure but Count is possibly another bad translation of
Signore, meaning sovereign Lord.

Regards,
Francisco
(Portugal)


WJhonson@aol.com escreveu:
Who then is "James Count of Piedmont d 1367" who has listed for father
"Philip Prince of Achaia d 1334" who himself has listed for father "Thomas Count of
Piedmont"

Surely this Philip must be the same person as the one you are saying married
Isabelle de /Villehardouin/ , Princess of Achaia and Morea

But I did not see any "James" listed in the list of children that you gave.
Thanks
Will Johnson

John P. Ravilious

Re: Jane Lowe 1633-1701

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 16 des 2006 14:42:59

Dear Will,

Two questions in reply to your last post:

You stated that you have identified all of Jane Lowe's gg
grandparents. To the best of my knowledge, her maternal grandmother is
unknown. Her grandfather, Henry Cavendish, Esq. of Tutbury, Staffs. is
well known and was married, but he had no issue by his Talbot wife.
Anne Cavendish, one of his daughters and mother of Jane Lowe, was
illegitimate.

Have you in fact identified the mistress of Henry Cavendish who
was mother to Anne? If so, that is a find of interest to many Sewall
and Calvert descendants of Jane Lowe. However, if this is based on
showing Anne as a legitimate daughter of Henry Cavendish and Grace
Talbot, this would be erroneous: the known number of gg grandparents
reverts to the previously known 12.

Cheers,

John


WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
I have all 16 of Jane Lowe's great-great-grandparents. I'm only missing the
wife of Vincent Lowe who is in position 16 in her chart. In fact the Lowe
family in general is very sketchy and shady compared to the fact that two of the
8 men were Earls, and another one a Judge.

Jane's grandmother Jane Harpur and Jane Harpur's parents Sir John Harpur and
Isabella Pierrepont are only four steps from Richard Cecil.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Yet Another Complete Peerage Correction: Tateshale-Orreb

Legg inn av Gjest » 16 des 2006 14:47:02

Dear Will,

That appears to be correct. There are many cases known where parents
(usually a widowed mother) sought legal enforcement of her rights to dowered
lands, and certainly many documented agreements as to division of property.

This appears to merely add a generation in this particular equation.

Cheers,

John

Paul K Davis

Re: first wife of Isaac II, Byzantine emperor

Legg inn av Paul K Davis » 16 des 2006 18:01:22

Thanks for the correction.

-- PKD [Paul K Davis, pkd-gm@earthlink.net]


[Original Message]
From: <WJhonson@aol.com
To: <pkd-gm@earthlink.net>; <gen-medieval-l@rootsweb.com
Date: 12/15/2006 7:12:36 PM
Subject: Re: first wife of Isaac II, Byzantine emperor

In a message dated 12/13/06 7:32:21 PM Pacific Standard Time,
pkd-gm@earthlink.net writes:

She presumably died by 1185, when Isaac married
Marguerite, daughter of king Bela II of Hungary.

This one is called "Bela III" not II
King of Hungary from 1173 to 96 (when he died)

Will Johnson

Paul K Davis

Re: first wife of Isaac II, Byzantine emperor

Legg inn av Paul K Davis » 16 des 2006 18:02:52

Thanks,

I believe you are essentially right. Philip was never crowned by the Pope.
I assume he filled the function of western emperor without the formality,
which I think occurred several times.

-- PKD [Paul K Davis, pkd-gm@earthlink.net]


[Original Message]
From: <WJhonson@aol.com
To: <gen-medieval-l@rootsweb.com
Date: 12/15/2006 7:15:13 PM
Subject: Re: first wife of Isaac II, Byzantine emperor

In a message dated 12/13/06 7:32:21 PM Pacific Standard Time,
pkd-gm@earthlink.net writes:

The first was the mother of his daughter Irene (later
renamed Maria), who married the German emperor Philip of Swabia, and is
the
identified ancestress of a large number of people.

Are you sure he was "emperor"? He is only called "Roman King" (elected
1198)
in Heraldry, which usually makes a clear distinction between King and
Emperor
in this regard.

Will

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JohnR

Re: Jane Lowe 1633-1701

Legg inn av JohnR » 17 des 2006 14:52:26

John P. Ravilious wrote:
Dear Will,

Two questions in reply to your last post:

You stated that you have identified all of Jane Lowe's gg
grandparents. To the best of my knowledge, her maternal grandmother is
unknown. Her grandfather, Henry Cavendish, Esq. of Tutbury, Staffs. is
well known and was married, but he had no issue by his Talbot wife.
Anne Cavendish, one of his daughters and mother of Jane Lowe, was
illegitimate.

Have you in fact identified the mistress of Henry Cavendish who
was mother to Anne? If so, that is a find of interest to many Sewall
and Calvert descendants of Jane Lowe. However, if this is based on
showing Anne as a legitimate daughter of Henry Cavendish and Grace
Talbot, this would be erroneous: the known number of gg grandparents
reverts to the previously known 12.

Cheers,

John


Would someone be kind enough to point me in the right direction for the
secondary source for this line?

John

Nicola

Re: Complete Peerage Correction: Parentage of Emme, Joan, &

Legg inn av Nicola » 17 des 2006 18:14:01

Dear Newsgroup,

Does not the list below include Dr. Richard Palgrave of Charlestown,
Massachusetts as well? I had long thought there was a Tateshale descent
to him, as shown below. If not, then I am wondering where the link
breaks.

Nicola

Douglas Richardson wrote:
For interest's sake, the following is a list of the 17th Century New
World colonists who descend from Robert de Tateshale, died 1273, and
his wife, Nichole de Grey. The list includes the immigrant, Margaret
Touteville, wife of Rev. Thomas Shepard, whose newly extended ancestry
has been previously discussed on the gen.medieval newsgroup.

William Bladen, Kenelm Cheseldine, Grace Chetwode, Muriel Gurdon, Anne
& Katherine Marbury, Thomas Owsley, Richard Saltonstall, Mary Johanna
Somerset, Margaret Touteville (two descents).

Descendants of Sir Robert de Tateshal

1. Sir Robert de Tateshal (b.1222;d.1273)
sp: Nichole de Grey (b.1226;m.1249;d.1277)
2. Robert 1st Baron de Tateshal , Kt. (b.1248;d.1298)
sp: Joan FitzRandolph (b.1248;m.1265;d.1310)
2. Emma de Tateshal (b.1265)
sp: Adam de Cailly , Lord Of Buckenham (b.1267;d.1307)
3. Margery de Cailly (b.1281)
sp: Sir Roger de Clifton , of Buckenham (b.1275;d.1330)
4. Sir Adam de Clifton (b.1298;d.1367)
sp: UNKNOWN
5. Adam de Clifton , of Buckenham (b.1318;d.1372)
sp: Eleanor de Mortimer (b.1319)
6. Eleanor de Clifton
sp: Sir John de Mauteby (d.1403)
7. Robert Mauteby Esq (d.1417)
sp: Margaret Beauchamp (b.1382)
8. John Mauteby Esq (b.1395;d.1432)
sp: Margery Berney (b.1390)
9. Margaret Mauteby (b.1422;d.1484)
sp: Sir John Paston the elder, MP (b.1421;d.1466)
10. Anne Paston (b.1434;d.1494)
sp: Sir William Yelverton (b.1432;m.1454;d.1474)
11. Margaret Yelverton (b.1440;d.1513)
sp: John Pagrave , Esq (b.1445;m.1469)
12. Henry Palgrave (b.1470;d.1516)
sp: Anna Glemham (b.1478)
13. Thomas Palgrave, Gent. (b.1508;d.1558)
sp: Alice Gunton (b.1517;m.1537;d.1554)
14. Rev. Edward Palgrave (b.1540;d.1623)
sp: UNKNOWN
15. Dr. Richard Palgrave (b.1585;d.1651)
sp: UNKNOWN

alden@mindspring.com

Re: Complete Peerage Correction: Parentage of Emme, Joan, &

Legg inn av alden@mindspring.com » 17 des 2006 21:09:07

On Dec 17, 12:14 pm, "Nicola" <furrowed_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Dear Newsgroup,

Does not the list below include Dr. Richard Palgrave of Charlestown,
Massachusetts as well? I had long thought there was a Tateshale descent
to him, as shown below. If not, then I am wondering where the link
breaks.

Nicola

Douglas Richardson wrote:

For interest's sake, the following is a list of the 17th Century New
World colonists who descend from Robert de Tateshale, died 1273, and
his wife, Nichole de Grey. The list includes the immigrant, Margaret
Touteville, wife of Rev. Thomas Shepard, whose newly extended ancestry
has been previously discussed on the gen.medieval newsgroup.

William Bladen, Kenelm Cheseldine, Grace Chetwode, Muriel Gurdon, Anne
& Katherine Marbury, Thomas Owsley, Richard Saltonstall, Mary Johanna
Somerset, Margaret Touteville (two descents).Descendants of Sir Robert de Tateshal

1. Sir Robert de Tateshal (b.1222;d.1273)
sp: Nichole de Grey (b.1226;m.1249;d.1277)
2. Robert 1st Baron de Tateshal , Kt. (b.1248;d.1298)
sp: Joan FitzRandolph (b.1248;m.1265;d.1310)
2. Emma de Tateshal (b.1265)
sp: Adam de Cailly , Lord Of Buckenham (b.1267;d.1307)
3. Margery de Cailly (b.1281)
sp: Sir Roger de Clifton , of Buckenham (b.1275;d.1330)
4. Sir Adam de Clifton (b.1298;d.1367)
sp: UNKNOWN
5. Adam de Clifton , of Buckenham (b.1318;d.1372)
sp: Eleanor de Mortimer (b.1319)
6. Eleanor de Clifton
sp: Sir John de Mauteby (d.1403)
7. Robert Mauteby Esq (d.1417)
sp: Margaret Beauchamp (b.1382)
8. John Mauteby Esq (b.1395;d.1432)
sp: Margery Berney (b.1390)
9. Margaret Mauteby (b.1422;d.1484)
sp: Sir John Paston the elder, MP (b.1421;d.1466)
10. Anne Paston (b.1434;d.1494)
sp: Sir William Yelverton (b.1432;m.1454;d.1474)

Was not Margaret below dau. of Sir William by 2nd wife Ela de Braose?


11. Margaret Yelverton (b.1440;d.1513)
sp: John Pagrave , Esq (b.1445;m.1469)
12. Henry Palgrave (b.1470;d.1516)
sp: Anna Glemham (b.1478)
13. Thomas Palgrave, Gent. (b.1508;d.1558)
sp: Alice Gunton (b.1517;m.1537;d.1554)
14. Rev. Edward Palgrave (b.1540;d.1623)
sp: UNKNOWN
15. Dr. Richard Palgrave (b.1585;d.1651)
sp: UNKNOWN

Doug Smith

Akrogiali

Re: Bari or Bar?

Legg inn av Akrogiali » 17 des 2006 23:08:16

Nobody suggested that Bari and Bar are the same place.
However, I have never seen before a person mentioned as "Lord" or "Count" or
"Marqui" of "Duke", or "Podesta", or "Captain" or anything else of BARI.

Was really Beatrice Countess of BARI ??????????????????????????????.


<WJhonson@aol.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.554.1166238050.6313.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
Bari and Bar are not the same place.

Bari is in the region of Apulia in Italy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bari

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Bari or Bar?

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 des 2006 01:06:02

In a message dated 12/17/2006 2:10:59 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
akrogiali@westnet.com.au writes:

Nobody suggested that Bari and Bar are the same place.


That's not quite right. Someone did suggest it.

Gjest

Re: Jane Lowe 1633-1701

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 des 2006 03:53:02

Sunday, 17 December, 2006


Dear John (Rees), et al.,

I'm not sure of which line you spoke in your post, but assume
this was directed to the point concerning the Cavendish ancestry of
Jane Lowe, as to her maternal grandfather Henry Cavendish and his
daughter (Jane's mother) Anne.

There are many secondary sources which discuss at more or less
restrained length the extramarital career of Henry. One of the more
recent publications is 'Bess of Hardwick, by Mary S. Lovell [1]. In
the course of its discussion of the life and family of Elizabeth
(Hardwick) (Barlow) (Cavendish) (St. Lo) Talbot, this work provides
several items of note concerning Henry, from his birth on 17 Dec
1550 (midnight) which was recorded by his father, including record
of his godfathers, Henry Grey (Lord Dorset) and John Dudley (later
Earl of Northumberland, exe. 1553), and his godmother the Lady
Elizabeth (later Queen Elizabeth) [1]. More details follow there,
including reference to his troubled marriage to Grace Talbot, his
mother's displeasure with his infidelities, his acquaintance with
the imprisoned Mary, Queen of Scots and Arabella Stuart (Henry
Cavendish's niece), and his own eventual disinheritance.

The forthcoming Vol. X of the Victoria County History of
Staffordshire [entitled, A History of the County of Staffordshire]
will include a chapter on Tutbury. An extract made from the draft
(online until fairly recently) mentioned among the other holders of
the manor,

'.. Henry [Cavendish], who was several times M.P. for
Derbyshire. In 1583 Henry also secured the rectory: the Crown
had granted it in 1578 to a pair of speculators, and they sold
it to another pair, who in turn sold it to Henry. He conveyed
the estate to his younger brother William, Baron Cavendish
(later earl of Devonshire), in 1608, although he himself was
still living at Tutbury in 1614. Henry still held the rectory
in 1612, but on his death in 1616 it presumably passed to
William, whose grandson William, earl of Devonshire held it
in 1653.
Tutbury '... consisted of 234 a. in Tutbury and 27 a. of
meadow nearby in Derbyshire,..' [2]

Other sources concerning Henry Cavendish and his career include
Douglas Richardson, Plantagenent Ancestry [Baltimore: Genealogical
Publishing Company, 2004], pp. 379-380.

I hope this answers your query. If not, please advise.

Cheers,

John *



NOTES

[1] Mary S. Lovell, Bess of Hardwick: First Lady of Chatsworth,
1527-1608 (London: Little, Brown, 2005).

[2] Philip Riden, Cponsultant Editor, Victoria County History of
Staffordshire [publication will be: Nigel Tringham, ed.
A History of the County of Staffordshire. Planned publication
date, June 2007], Volume X: Tutbury and Needwood Forest. URL:

http://www.englandpast.net/staffs_draft/index.html


* John P. Ravilious

Leo van de Pas

Re: Complete Peerage Correction: Parentage of Emme, Joan, &

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 18 des 2006 06:00:36

I think you are correct questioning links 10 and 11. 10. born in 1434 and
her daughter nr.11 in 1440.

With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia


----- Original Message -----
From: <alden@mindspring.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 7:09 AM
Subject: Re: Complete Peerage Correction: Parentage of Emme, Joan,& Isabel
de Tateshale



On Dec 17, 12:14 pm, "Nicola" <furrowed_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Dear Newsgroup,

Does not the list below include Dr. Richard Palgrave of Charlestown,
Massachusetts as well? I had long thought there was a Tateshale descent
to him, as shown below. If not, then I am wondering where the link
breaks.

Nicola

Douglas Richardson wrote:

For interest's sake, the following is a list of the 17th Century New
World colonists who descend from Robert de Tateshale, died 1273, and
his wife, Nichole de Grey. The list includes the immigrant, Margaret
Touteville, wife of Rev. Thomas Shepard, whose newly extended ancestry
has been previously discussed on the gen.medieval newsgroup.

William Bladen, Kenelm Cheseldine, Grace Chetwode, Muriel Gurdon, Anne
& Katherine Marbury, Thomas Owsley, Richard Saltonstall, Mary Johanna
Somerset, Margaret Touteville (two descents).Descendants of Sir Robert
de Tateshal

1. Sir Robert de Tateshal (b.1222;d.1273)
sp: Nichole de Grey (b.1226;m.1249;d.1277)
2. Robert 1st Baron de Tateshal , Kt. (b.1248;d.1298)
sp: Joan FitzRandolph (b.1248;m.1265;d.1310)
2. Emma de Tateshal (b.1265)
sp: Adam de Cailly , Lord Of Buckenham (b.1267;d.1307)
3. Margery de Cailly (b.1281)
sp: Sir Roger de Clifton , of Buckenham (b.1275;d.1330)
4. Sir Adam de Clifton (b.1298;d.1367)
sp: UNKNOWN
5. Adam de Clifton , of Buckenham (b.1318;d.1372)
sp: Eleanor de Mortimer (b.1319)
6. Eleanor de Clifton
sp: Sir John de Mauteby (d.1403)
7. Robert Mauteby Esq (d.1417)
sp: Margaret Beauchamp (b.1382)
8. John Mauteby Esq (b.1395;d.1432)
sp: Margery Berney (b.1390)
9. Margaret Mauteby (b.1422;d.1484)
sp: Sir John Paston the elder, MP (b.1421;d.1466)
10. Anne Paston (b.1434;d.1494)
sp: Sir William Yelverton (b.1432;m.1454;d.1474)

Was not Margaret below dau. of Sir William by 2nd wife Ela de Braose?


11. Margaret Yelverton (b.1440;d.1513)
sp: John Pagrave , Esq (b.1445;m.1469)
12. Henry Palgrave (b.1470;d.1516)
sp: Anna Glemham (b.1478)
13. Thomas Palgrave, Gent. (b.1508;d.1558)
sp: Alice Gunton (b.1517;m.1537;d.1554)
14. Rev. Edward Palgrave (b.1540;d.1623)
sp: UNKNOWN
15. Dr. Richard Palgrave (b.1585;d.1651)
sp: UNKNOWN

Doug Smith


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Leo van de Pas

Re: Complete Peerage Correction: Parentage of Emme, Joan, &

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 18 des 2006 06:17:11

See below

----- Original Message -----
From: "Nicola" <furrowed_one@yahoo.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval,soc.history.medieval
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 4:14 AM
Subject: Re: Complete Peerage Correction: Parentage of Emme, Joan,& Isabel
de Tateshale


Dear Newsgroup,

Does not the list below include Dr. Richard Palgrave of Charlestown,
Massachusetts as well? I had long thought there was a Tateshale descent
to him, as shown below. If not, then I am wondering where the link
breaks.

Nicola

Douglas Richardson wrote:

For interest's sake, the following is a list of the 17th Century New
World colonists who descend from Robert de Tateshale, died 1273, and
his wife, Nichole de Grey. The list includes the immigrant, Margaret
Touteville, wife of Rev. Thomas Shepard, whose newly extended ancestry
has been previously discussed on the gen.medieval newsgroup.

William Bladen, Kenelm Cheseldine, Grace Chetwode, Muriel Gurdon, Anne
& Katherine Marbury, Thomas Owsley, Richard Saltonstall, Mary Johanna
Somerset, Margaret Touteville (two descents).

Descendants of Sir Robert de Tateshal

1. Sir Robert de Tateshal (b.1222;d.1273)
sp: Nichole de Grey (b.1226;m.1249;d.1277)
2. Robert 1st Baron de Tateshal , Kt. (b.1248;d.1298)
sp: Joan FitzRandolph (b.1248;m.1265;d.1310)
2. Emma de Tateshal (b.1265)
-------------------where did you get the information (with years of birth

and death?).......
Burke's Extinct Peerage makes her husband Sir Osbert de Cailly..............

sp: Adam de Cailly , Lord Of Buckenham (b.1267;d.1307)
3. Margery de Cailly (b.1281)
sp: Sir Roger de Clifton , of Buckenham (b.1275;d.1330)
4. Sir Adam de Clifton (b.1298;d.1367)
sp: UNKNOWN
5. Adam de Clifton , of Buckenham (b.1318;d.1372)
sp: Eleanor de Mortimer (b.1319)
6. Eleanor de Clifton
sp: Sir John de Mauteby (d.1403)
7. Robert Mauteby Esq (d.1417)
sp: Margaret Beauchamp (b.1382)
8. John Mauteby Esq (b.1395;d.1432)
sp: Margery Berney (b.1390)
9. Margaret Mauteby (b.1422;d.1484)
sp: Sir John Paston the elder, MP (b.1421;d.1466)
10. Anne Paston (b.1434;d.1494)
sp: Sir William Yelverton (b.1432;m.1454;d.1474)
11. Margaret Yelverton (b.1440;d.1513)
sp: John Pagrave , Esq (b.1445;m.1469)
12. Henry Palgrave (b.1470;d.1516)
sp: Anna Glemham (b.1478)
13. Thomas Palgrave, Gent. (b.1508;d.1558)
sp: Alice Gunton (b.1517;m.1537;d.1554)
14. Rev. Edward Palgrave (b.1540;d.1623)
sp: UNKNOWN
15. Dr. Richard Palgrave (b.1585;d.1651)
sp: UNKNOWN


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Douglas Richardson

Re: More Kinsfolk: Hugues de Thouars, kinsman of Alice, Coun

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 18 des 2006 18:47:40

Dear Newsgroup ~

In my previous post, I stated that Hugues de Thouars's grandmother,
Agnes of Poitou, was a great-aunt to King Henry III's grandmother,
Queen Eleanor of Aquitaine. Agnes of Poitou was actually Queen
Eleanor's aunt.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Douglas Richardson

Re: Yet Another Complete Peerage Correction: Tateshale-Orreb

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 18 des 2006 21:19:55

Dear John ~

Thank you for your good post. Much appreciated.

I might point out that Nichole de Grey, wife of Robert de Tateshale,
also had a sister, Emme de Grey, wife of Sir William de Huntingfield,
Knt. (died 1290), of Huntingfield, Byng Hall (in Pettistree), and
Mendham, Suffolk, East Bradenham, Norfolk, etc. Emme's maritagium
included the manor of Bacton, Norfolk and the advowson of Alderton,
Suffolk. For further particulars of the Huntingfield family, see
Douglas Richardson, Magna Carta Ancestry (2005).

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Gjest

Re: Jane Lowe 1633-1701

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 des 2006 22:33:01

In a message dated 12/16/06 5:46:48 AM Pacific Standard Time, therav3@aol.com
writes:

<< Her grandfather, Henry Cavendish, Esq. of Tutbury, Staffs. is
well known and was married, but he had no issue by his Talbot wife.
Anne Cavendish, one of his daughters and mother of Jane Lowe, was
illegitimate. >>

Thank you for the correction. You are quite right, that that was what I was
showing. What is the source that Anne was illegitimate or that Grace was not
her mother?
Thanks
Will Johnson

Leo van de Pas

Re: Jane Lowe 1633-1701

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 18 des 2006 22:51:07

Dear Will,

Burke's Peerage 1938 page 807 tells erroneously Henry Cavendish _d.s.p._

The Complete Baronetage Volume V page 104 in a footnote :
This William (Cavendish) was descended from Henry Cavendish, of Doveridge,
illegitimate son of Henry Cavendish, of Chatsworth (died s.p.legit 12
October 1616) the elder brother of William Cavendish, 1st Earl of
Devonshire.

Burke's Peerage 1999 page 2957 calls Henry Cavendish as of Tutbury Castle,
born 1549 dspl 12 October 1616 and mentions his illegitimate (I suppose
acknowledged children) Henry, Thomas, Charles, William, Augustin who all
took the Cavendish name, and three daughters. Through other sources I found
these three to be Anne, Audrey and Elizabeth.

Henry Cavendish had the nickname of 'the common bull of Derbyshire and
Staffordshire'. In my system, at the moment, I have 1337 descendants for
him.

Amongst these are Jane Lowe, Nicholas Sewall, as Gateways. Anthony Eden PM
of Great Britain, Sarah Ferguson and a few more interesting people.

Sadly Grace Talbot did have no children but her husband made up for that.
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia


----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 8:29 AM
Subject: Re: Jane Lowe 1633-1701


In a message dated 12/16/06 5:46:48 AM Pacific Standard Time,
therav3@aol.com
writes:

Her grandfather, Henry Cavendish, Esq. of Tutbury, Staffs. is
well known and was married, but he had no issue by his Talbot wife.
Anne Cavendish, one of his daughters and mother of Jane Lowe, was
illegitimate.

Thank you for the correction. You are quite right, that that was what I
was
showing. What is the source that Anne was illegitimate or that Grace was
not
her mother?
Thanks
Will Johnson

-------------------------------
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quotes in the subject and the body of the message

taf

Re: Complete Peerage Correction: Parentage of Emme, Joan, &

Legg inn av taf » 19 des 2006 10:06:50

alden@mindspring.com wrote:
On Dec 17, 12:14 pm, "Nicola" <furrowed_...@yahoo.com> wrote:


9. Margaret Mauteby (b.1422;d.1484)
sp: Sir John Paston the elder, MP (b.1421;d.1466)
10. Anne Paston (b.1434;d.1494)
sp: Sir William Yelverton (b.1432;m.1454;d.1474)

Was not Margaret below dau. of Sir William by 2nd wife Ela de Braose?


11. Margaret Yelverton (b.1440;d.1513)
sp: John Pagrave , Esq (b.1445;m.1469)
12. Henry Palgrave (b.1470;d.1516)


Just to clarify, Margaret was daughter of a different Sir William
Yelverton than the one who married Anne Paston. I don't know that it
has been definitively determined whether Ela de Braose was mother or
step-mother of Margaret.

taf

conaught2

Re: Bourchier

Legg inn av conaught2 » 19 des 2006 10:20:28

"Bourchier, a form of Bousser or Bousseres, from Boursieres, in Burgundy. Urso de Berseres held Senley, Busck, 1086 (Domesd.) Sylvester de Bursers in 1165 held lands in Suffolk, of the honor of Clare (Lib. Niger). John de Busser was a justice in Essex and Hertford 1317, 1318; in 1321 a justice of the Common Pleas, and in 1324 Robert de Bousser was summoned from Essex to the Great Council, Westminster. The Lords Bourchier, Earls of Essex and Eu, descended from this family."

Taken from The Norman People and Their Existing Descendants in The British Dominions and The United States, Originally Published in London, 1874
Reprinted by Genealogical Publishing Co. Inc, Baltimore, Maryland, 1999

It is intersting to see this name in a post because I am working on the canonization of Venerable James Dowdall of Drogheda who was martyred in 1599 in Exeter. The Earl of Bath, William Bourchiers was the official who questioned him after his ship ended up on the Devon coast due to bad weather. After James Dowdall was imprisoned for almost a year Bourchiers wrote to Robert Cecil asking what to do with Dowdall since he refused to take the supremacy oath. Within two months James Dowdall was hanged, drawn and quartered for refusing to take the supremacy oath placing Elizabeth above the pope in spiritual matters.

Hope this helps your friends.

Margaret Kristich





----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeffrey OrfordPerkins" <orfordperkins@ntlworld.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 12:45 PM
Subject: Bourchier


Dear All,

A friend of mine has asked if any one on the list knows of the origin of the family "Bourchier" as far as we can tell they came to England after 1086,

Any help mush appreciated,

Happy Advent

Jeff and Keith

-------------------------------
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Gjest

Re: Complete Peerage Correction: Parentage of Emme, Joan, &

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 des 2006 21:41:02

In a message dated 12/17/06 9:16:05 AM Pacific Standard Time,
furrowed_one@yahoo.com writes:

<< 1. Sir Robert de Tateshal (b.1222;d.1273)
sp: Nichole de Grey (b.1226;m.1249;d.1277) >>

Nichole de Grey is not known to have married IN 1249.
Rather CP states that she married "BEF 1249"

Also the "b 1226" is suspect, as an equally slightly better sourced claim,
here
"Subj: Will the real wife of John De GREY please stand up?
Date: 6/19/06 2:54:55 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: mep33@sbcglobal.net (mep33)"

claims that Emma de Cauz's first husband John de Seagrave "d abt 1230" thus
precluding Nichole, provided Emma is her mother, from being born before 1230.

That we now know her eldest? child Robert was b 1248/9 sets Nichole's own
birthrange to 1230/6

Comments appreciated.
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Complete Peerage Correction: Parentage of Emme, Joan, &

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 des 2006 21:46:02

In a message dated 12/17/06 9:16:05 AM Pacific Standard Time,
furrowed_one@yahoo.com writes:

<< 2. Emma de Tateshal (b.1265)
sp: Adam de Cailly , Lord Of Buckenham (b.1267;d.1307) >>

The birthyear here given is dubious. Emma is called "Eldest sister" and so
must have a birthrange rather of 1243/55 after correcting her erroneous prior
placement in this family.

I have nothing on dates for Adam de Cailly, but the above looks suspicious
without citations.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Complete Peerage Correction: Parentage of Emme, Joan, &

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 des 2006 21:47:02

In a message dated 12/17/06 9:16:05 AM Pacific Standard Time,
furrowed_one@yahoo.com writes:

<< 2. Robert 1st Baron de Tateshal , Kt. (b.1248;d.1298)
sp: Joan FitzRandolph (b.1248;m.1265;d.1310) >>

Robert was born 1248/9 and I don't believe his exact death year is known.
Could you provide the source?

I don't believe Joan's exact birth year is known and I question this death
year as she is also said to be "still living in 1335".

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Lorette de Dover, unresolved parentage

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 des 2006 22:14:02

In a message dated 12/17/06 11:51:27 AM Pacific Standard Time,
sysite@swbell.net writes:

<< The Moriarty article [New England Hist. & Gen Journal, CV (1951) at 36]
gives marriage of John DE DOUVRES to Roese de Lucy, and their son
Fulbert DE DOUVRES's marriage to Isabel Briwere, and their daughter
Roese DE DOUVRES's marriage to Richard FitzRoy (illeg. son of King John).

In sum, I cannot find support for a marriage of Fulbert DE DOUVRES and
Roese and I am very much befuddled as to proper place of Lorette, wife
of William MARMION, in the DE DOUVRES family. >>

I'm not sure I'm understanding your dilemna.
Did you consult "CP II, 127" to see if they cite an underlying source for
their statement that
"Richard FitzRoy m Rohese, d 1264/5, dau of Fulbert of Dover"

You also state that Moriarty repeats this (adding mother Isabel Briwere).
Does Moriarty states his source?

Is the issue that you cannot find where the name "Fulbert" comes from in this
context?
It appears the family goes as
1 John of Dover + Rohese de Lacy
2 Robert (Fulbert) of Dover + Isabel Briwere
3 Royce de Dover + Richard FitzRoy, Baron Chilham
4 Lorette "filiaRichard" + William Marmion

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Lorette de Dover, unresolved parentage

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 des 2006 22:19:02

In a message dated 12/17/06 1:11:10 PM Pacific Standard Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:

<< Rose de Dover, wife of Richard Fitz Roy, in turn was the daughter and
heiress of Fulbert de Dover (died about 1204), of Chilham, Kent, by
Isabel, daughter of William Brewer (or Briwere). >>

Is this Isabel Brewer the same person as Isabel Brewer "second daughter" of
William Brewer, Sheriff of Devon by his wife Beatrix de Vaux d 1217 ?
Thanks
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Lorette de Dover, unresolved parentage

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 des 2006 22:23:02

In a message dated 12/19/06 1:14:22 PM Pacific Standard Time,
WJhonson@aol.com writes:

<< I'm not sure I'm understanding your dilemna.
Did you consult "CP II, 127" to see if they cite an underlying source for
their statement that
"Richard FitzRoy m Rohese, d 1264/5, dau of Fulbert of Dover" >>

Reviewing my odd scattered notes, I see that you already responded that CP II
does not use the form "Fulbert" here but rather "Robert". And that "Living
Descendents" sub "Evans" has either misquoted them, or not included all their
sources when giving a line of descent.

So my prior email today should be ignored.
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: More Kinsfolk: Hugues de Thouars, kinsman of Alice, Coun

Legg inn av Gjest » 20 des 2006 01:17:03

In a message dated 12/18/06 9:25:51 PM Pacific Standard Time,
hallowellb@aol.com writes:

<< Audéarde de Bourgogne b c1050 d after 1104
Ermengarde d' Anjou b c1010 d 21 Mar 1076>>

<< Audéarde de Bourgogne b c1050 d after 1104
Robert I Duke de Bourgogne b c1011 d 21 Mar 1076 >>

I have snipped out that portion that isn't relevant to my question. As I
understand it, you are making "Audearde de Bourgogne" a daughter of Robert by
Ermengarde d'Anjou above.

Robert was first married to Hedwig (Helie) of Semur (her surname/placename is
speculation) in 1038
They divorced, but the divorce was not granted until 22 Apr 1055

What evidence do you have that by his next wife Ermengarde (Irmgard) he had a
daughter by 1050 ?

Thanks
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: More Kinsfolk: Hugues de Thouars, kinsman of Alice, Coun

Legg inn av Gjest » 20 des 2006 03:07:30

Will,

The source for Audéarde/Hildegarde de Bourgogne born c1050 to
Robert's second wife Ermengarde d' Anjou (married about 1048) is from
Leo's web site, where he quotes both Stammtafeln zur Geschichte der
Europäischen Staaten and Europäische Stammtafeln.
[see
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.ph ... 0&tree=LEO]

Bruce Hallowell

On Dec 19, 5:15 pm, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 12/18/06 9:25:51 PM Pacific Standard Time,

hallowe...@aol.com writes:<< Audéarde de Bourgogne b c1050 d after 1104
Ermengarde d' Anjou b c1010 d 21 Mar 1076

Audéarde de Bourgogne b c1050 d after 1104
Robert I Duke de Bourgogne b c1011 d 21 Mar 1076

I have snipped out that portion that isn't relevant to my question. As I
understand it, you are making "Audearde de Bourgogne" a daughter of Robert by
Ermengarde d'Anjou above.

Robert was first married to Hedwig (Helie) of Semur (her surname/placename is
speculation) in 1038
They divorced, but the divorce was not granted until 22 Apr 1055

What evidence do you have that by his next wife Ermengarde (Irmgard) he had a
daughter by 1050 ?

Thanks
Will Johnson

Stewart Baldwin

Re: More Kinsfolk: Hugues de Thouars, kinsman of Alice, Coun

Legg inn av Stewart Baldwin » 20 des 2006 03:54:07

On Tue, 19 Dec 2006 19:15:07 EST, WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 12/18/06 9:25:51 PM Pacific Standard Time,
hallowellb@aol.com writes:

Audéarde de Bourgogne b c1050 d after 1104
Ermengarde d' Anjou b c1010 d 21 Mar 1076

Audéarde de Bourgogne b c1050 d after 1104
Robert I Duke de Bourgogne b c1011 d 21 Mar 1076

I have snipped out that portion that isn't relevant
to my question. As I understand it, you are making
"Audearde de Bourgogne" a daughter of Robert by
Ermengarde d'Anjou above.

Robert was first married to Hedwig (Helie) of Semur
(her surname/placename is speculation) in 1038
They divorced, but the divorce was not granted until
22 Apr 1055

What evidence do you have that by his next wife
Ermengarde (Irmgard) he had a daughter by 1050 ?

There is a page on Ermengarde at the Henry Project website:

http://sbaldw.home.mindspring.com/hproj ... men001.htm

Stewart Baldwin

Peter Stewart

Re: More Kinsfolk: Hugues de Thouars, kinsman of Alice, Coun

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 20 des 2006 04:08:46

<WJhonson@aol.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.46.1166573728.30800.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
In a message dated 12/18/06 9:25:51 PM Pacific Standard Time,
hallowellb@aol.com writes:

Audéarde de Bourgogne b c1050 d after 1104
Ermengarde d' Anjou b c1010 d 21 Mar 1076

Audéarde de Bourgogne b c1050 d after 1104
Robert I Duke de Bourgogne b c1011 d 21 Mar 1076

I have snipped out that portion that isn't relevant to my question. As I
understand it, you are making "Audearde de Bourgogne" a daughter of Robert
by
Ermengarde d'Anjou above.

Robert was first married to Hedwig (Helie) of Semur (her surname/placename
is
speculation) in 1038
They divorced, but the divorce was not granted until 22 Apr 1055

Robert's first wife was named Helie, occurring as Helya and Evella with
variants and also as having the second name Petronilla, but she was never
called Hedwig.

They were married ca 1033 - she first occurs as his duchess in 1034, not
1038. And her family origin is not speculative, she was definitely a
duaghter of Dalmas I, seigneur of Semur. The date of their "divorce"
(assuming one was ever formally granted, which is unknown & unlikely) was
not 22 April 1055 - rather, Helie died on a 22 April in or after 1055.

What evidence do you have that by his next wife Ermengarde (Irmgard) he
had a
daughter by 1050 ?

She must have had her soon after 1050, probably not before that year unless
the child was born before her second marriage.

Ermengarde's full-brother Geoffrey Martel was born in 1006 or 1007 and she
herself presumably ca 1010 or not long after that. Her elder son appears to
have been born by ca 1035, and the younger certainly before May 1043.
Ermengarde was married to Robert by January 1051 at the latest, most
probably before the autumn of 1050 when rumours were circulating about the
scandal. Audearde herself had a son, later Duke William the Troubadour of
Aquitaine, born before 22 October 1071.

Peter Stewart

Gjest

Re: Bari or Bar?

Legg inn av Gjest » 20 des 2006 04:48:26

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 12/17/2006 2:10:59 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
akrogiali@westnet.com.au writes:

Nobody suggested that Bari and Bar are the same place.


That's not quite right. Someone did suggest it.

Not on this string they didn't. They suggested two PERSONS might be the
same, not the two places.

I don't know of a Bari title (and by then it's Duke) until the reign of
Ferrante I (of Aragon) King of Naples, when he bestowed it on his
granddaughter Isabella when she married Giangaleazzo Sforza. The duchy
was inherited by her daughter Bona, Queen of Poland.

Of counts of Bari (which would have been a royal fortress) in the era
of the Anjou kings I, like Leo, know nothing. The coincidence of the
name Edward (in those days quite rare on the Continent except in
families descended from English kings) makes me think Leo is on to
something. If the gentleman who is certain the lady was of "Bar-le-Duc"
which is the name by which Bar came to be known after its promotion to
dukedom in the 14th century to distinguish it from Bar-sur-Seine, will
tell us the source of his information, perhaps we can clear the whole
thing up.

Bravo, Leo.

-- Jean Coeur de Lapin

Gjest

Re: More Kinsfolk: Hugues de Thouars, kinsman of Alice, Coun

Legg inn av Gjest » 20 des 2006 05:16:02

In a message dated 12/19/06 7:11:08 PM Pacific Standard Time,
p_m_stewart@msn.com writes:

<< Robert's first wife was named Helie, occurring as Helya and Evella with
variants and also as having the second name Petronilla, but she was never
called Hedwig.

They were married ca 1033 - she first occurs as his duchess in 1034, not
1038. And her family origin is not speculative, she was definitely a
duaghter of Dalmas I, seigneur of Semur. The date of their "divorce"
(assuming one was ever formally granted, which is unknown & unlikely) was
not 22 April 1055 - rather, Helie died on a 22 April in or after 1055. >>

Thank you Peter for these corrections.
My source "Heraldry of the Royal Families of Europe", Table 64, Jiri Louda
and Michael Maclagan; Clarkson N Potter, New York 1981

shows Hedwig died 1109, daughter of Dalmas, C[ount] of Semur m 1038 as first
wife (div 1055) Robert, D[uke] of Burgundy born 1011 died 1076, married as
second wife 1055 Irmgard, d of Fulco II, C of Anjou

It's interesting that they state died 1109 while you say "in or after 1055".
That's quite a difference!

Will Johnson

Peter Stewart

Re: More Kinsfolk: Hugues de Thouars, kinsman of Alice, Coun

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 20 des 2006 05:39:01

<WJhonson@aol.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.52.1166584991.30800.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
In a message dated 12/19/06 7:11:08 PM Pacific Standard Time,
p_m_stewart@msn.com writes:

Robert's first wife was named Helie, occurring as Helya and Evella with
variants and also as having the second name Petronilla, but she was never
called Hedwig.

They were married ca 1033 - she first occurs as his duchess in 1034, not
1038. And her family origin is not speculative, she was definitely a
duaghter of Dalmas I, seigneur of Semur. The date of their "divorce"
(assuming one was ever formally granted, which is unknown & unlikely) was
not 22 April 1055 - rather, Helie died on a 22 April in or after 1055.

Thank you Peter for these corrections.
My source "Heraldry of the Royal Families of Europe", Table 64, Jiri Louda
and Michael Maclagan; Clarkson N Potter, New York 1981

shows Hedwig died 1109, daughter of Dalmas, C[ount] of Semur m 1038 as
first
wife (div 1055) Robert, D[uke] of Burgundy born 1011 died 1076, married as
second wife 1055 Irmgard, d of Fulco II, C of Anjou

It's interesting that they state died 1109 while you say "in or after
1055".
That's quite a difference!

Since Louda & Maclagan have her name and her father's title wrong - he was
lord, but not count, of Semur - not too much confidence should be reposed in
the date of death they ascribe to her. She was married by 1034 so presumably
born by 1020 at the latest, perhaps ca 1015, and therefore she must have
been around 89-95 years old if surviving until 1109.

The indication I gave, in or after 1055, is based on her last occurrence in
a contemporary document: although "after 1055" is literally consistent with
1109, I am not prepared to believe without compelling evidence that this
ancestress of the dukes of Burgundy lived for a further 54 years in total
cloistered obscurity.

Peter Stewart

Gjest

Re: Bari or Bar?

Legg inn av Gjest » 20 des 2006 05:55:03

In a message dated 12/19/06 7:50:55 PM Pacific Standard Time,
atsarisborn@hotmail.com writes:

<< I don't know of a Bari title (and by then it's Duke) until the reign of
Ferrante I (of Aragon) King of Naples, >>

Heraldry of the Royal Families of Europe, Table 124, Jiri Louda and Michael
Maclagan; Clarkson N Potter, New York 1981

in their discussion of Sicily and Naples calls
"Tancred Pr[ince] of Bari" the son of Roger II, K of Sicily 1130 who d 1154

Will Johnson

Peter Stewart

Re: Bari or Bar?

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 20 des 2006 06:38:01

<WJhonson@aol.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.53.1166590373.30800.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
In a message dated 12/19/06 7:50:55 PM Pacific Standard Time,
atsarisborn@hotmail.com writes:

I don't know of a Bari title (and by then it's Duke) until the reign of
Ferrante I (of Aragon) King of Naples,

Heraldry of the Royal Families of Europe, Table 124, Jiri Louda and
Michael
Maclagan; Clarkson N Potter, New York 1981

in their discussion of Sicily and Naples calls
"Tancred Pr[ince] of Bari" the son of Roger II, K of Sicily 1130 who d
1154

Alexander of Talese wrote that the principality of Bari was given to a
younger son of King Roger II - this was Tancred, as your source says, but he
died aged around 20 on 16 March 1138/40 (not long after the death of of
Queen Elvira in 1135, according to Romuald of Salerno), not in 1154.

I too was puzzled by the title "countess of Bari" - I suspect this was not
accurate. There were justiciars and catepans of Bari, but not counts or
viscounts that I know of. However, there was a family originally named "de
Colimento" who were lords of Barile and later took this as their surname.

A Beatrice di Barile, daughter of Berard, was heiress to her brother Thomas
at the end of the 12th century. She married Malierius of Palena and had
sons, but I don't know if there was a descendant named Beatrice, daughter of
Duarte, who married Guido Gonzaga.

Peter Stewart

Gjest

Re: Bari or Bar?

Legg inn av Gjest » 20 des 2006 07:23:02

In a message dated 12/19/06 9:40:49 PM Pacific Standard Time,
p_m_stewart@msn.com writes:

<< > in their discussion of Sicily and Naples calls
"Tancred Pr[ince] of Bari" the son of Roger II, K of Sicily 1130 who d
1154

Alexander of Talese wrote that the principality of Bari was given to a
younger son of King Roger II - this was Tancred, as your source says, but he
died aged around 20 on 16 March 1138/40 (not long after the death of of
Queen Elvira in 1135, according to Romuald of Salerno), not in 1154. >>


It's my problem of displaced qualifiers. The "who d 1154" belongs to Roger
in this source, not to Tancred.
My message here wasn't very clear.
Thanks for the additional info about exactly when Tancred died and how old he
was.
Will

Gjest

Re: Gov. Thomas Dudley ...

Legg inn av Gjest » 20 des 2006 21:59:41

In a message dated 12/20/06 8:21:21 AM Pacific Standard Time,
nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net writes:

<< That having been said, it is still interesting that *if* Marshall Kirk's
speculation on his ancestry is correct, Governor Thomas Dudley would in
1643 have become the heir male of John, 3d Baron Dudley, >>

Does anyone have a link to or details on the speculation? I had not heard
previously that Gov Thomas Dudley is supposed to be of that Dudley family.
Thanks
Will Johnson

Hal Bradley

RE: Revisiting the marriage and death dates of Constance (Ha

Legg inn av Hal Bradley » 20 des 2006 22:22:45

Dear John,

Thank you for the interesting post. I might add that Eustace Grubb was
probably Thomas Fairclough's first cousin. Thomas' aunt Dorothy apparently
married George Grubb, who were the parents of Eustace. Eustace subsequently
married a step-daughter of Robert Hatley. As a step-son, himself, of Robert
Hatley, Thomas probably regarded Constance and Elizabeth Sheppard as his
sisters, who were probably about a decade younger than himself. If Thomas
was still a minor in Robert Hatley's household when Robert married the widow
Constance (Hawes) Sheppard in 1564, then Constance and Elizabeth would
certainly be viewed as younger step-sisters. Constance and Elizabeth are
mentioned as daughters in the will of Thomas Sheppard (d. 1563/4), along
with another daughter Judith and sons Thomas & William (see NEHGR 118
(1964): 256.

The extracted marriage records of Goldington for Constance and Elizabeth
helps round out the account of the Sheppard family.

These children would be a small addition to the account of the Sheppard
family in Richardson's RPA, p. 649.

Hal Bradley

-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of John Brandon
Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 9:53 AM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Revisiting the marriage and death dates of Constance
(Hawes)(Sheppard) Hatley


Back in '04, I posted the following:

Doug's good new book has sections dealing with the Hawes and Sheppard
families behind the immigrant Thomas Bressey of New Haven. Generation
15 in the Sheppard part of the line is (p. 649)

15. CONSTANCE HAWES, married (1st) before 1545 THOMAS SHEPPARD (or
SHEPHERD), Gent., of Maulden, Hockliffe, and Littlecote (in Stewkley),
Bedfordshire, son of William Sheppard, of Littlecote (in Stewkley),
Bedfordshire, by his wife, Alice. He was born about 1515. THOMAS
SHEPPARD left a will dated 20 Jan. 1561/2, proved 4 March 1563/4. His
widow, Constance, married (2nd) ROBERT HATLEY, of Goldington,
Bedfordshire. She was living 20 May 1574.

P.W. Hasler, _History of Parliament : The House of Commons,
1558-1603_,
2:275-76, has a bio. for Robert Hatley, M.P. (d. 1585), of Puttenhoe
and Goldington, Beds.: "m. (1) 17 Sept. 1559, Millicent, da. of one
Barre, wid. of Thomas Fairclough, s.p.; (2) 8 May 1564, Constance (d.
1596), da. of Thomas Sheppard of Hockliffe, 1s. 2da."

I assume "Constance, da. of Thomas Sheppard" is a mistake for
"Constance, widow of Thomas Sheppard," as the 1574 will of
Thomas Hawes
mentions his "daughter Hatley," not "granddaughter Hatley."

Interestingly, Robert Hatley's first wife, Millicent (Barre)
Fairclough, was the grandmother of Jane Allen, first wife of the New
England immigrant Rev. Peter Bulkeley.

+ + + + + + +

Shortly after posting this, I remember finding some little
wrench in my
theory and putting it on a backburner for a while, eventually
forgetting even what the objection was. However, scrounging around on
the internet, I believe I've found the problem: there is a webpage
claiming that Millicent (Barr) (Faircloth/ Fairclough) Hatley died 14
June 1585 at Goldington, Bedfordshire.

http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bi ... GET&db=the
presidents&id=I19494#s2

This would mean that Robert Hatley could not have had a second wife,
Mrs. Constance (Hawes) Sheppard.

However, I believe it is actually correct as I originally
presented it.
For background, see the Faircloth/ Fairclough pedigree in the
_Visitation of Hertfordshire_ ...

(p. 52)
http://books.google.com/books?vid=OCLC2 ... oEAAAAIAAJ
&pg=RA2-PA1&lpg=RA2-PA1&dq=visitations#PRA2-PA52,M1

Notice that Milicent Barr's second marriage is not addressed, but that
she had sons John, Thomas, Richard and Lawrence. I believe her son
Thomas's will is the one reproduced in the NEHGR ...

(p. 254)
http://books.google.com/books?vid=0COBg ... &id=DlC8V3
38bdwC&pg=PA254&lpg=PA254&dq=%22robert+hatley%22#PPA254,M1

Notice that, at the end of the will, he mentions his father and mother
Hatley, brother Robert Hatley, sister Gertrude [? Hatley], sister
Constance Grubb, and sister Elizabeth Lenton. The following extracted
IGI records seem to tie everything together (albeit somewhat loosely)
...

Goldington, Bedford

--Rob Hattley to Millicent Fayrecloth, 17 Sept. 1559
--Rob Hattley to Constance Sheppard, 8 May 1564
--Gertrude Hatley, bapt. 5 Feb. 1565
--Robert Hatley, son of Robert, bapt. 19 Sept. 1566
--Ursula Hatley, dau. of Robert, bapt. 7 Nov. 1568
--Constance Shepheard to Eustace Grubb, 3 July 1581
--Jn Lenton to Elizabeth Shepphearde, 18 May 1585
--Gertrude Hatley to Dive Downs, 29 July 1588

The same Herts. Visitation shows the wife of Eustace Grubb to be
Constance Shepard of Hockley, thus clearly tying the Faircloths to the
family of Thomas Shepard of Hockley, who is known to have married
Constance Hawes. Her child Ursula Hatley would be named for her
sister-in-law, Mrs. Ursula (Colles) Hawes of Solihull.

(p. 60)
http://books.google.com/books?vid=OCLC2 ... oEAAAAIAAJ
&pg=RA2-PA1&lpg=RA2-PA1&dq=visitations#PRA2-PA60,M1


It seems clear that Thomas Faircloth's will referrer to the children of
his (former) step-father, Robert Hatley, as his own "brother" and
"sisters."

Presumably there is an actual burial record for a "Millicent Hattley"
on 14 June 1585 at Goldington, Bedfordshire. I suggest this would be
for an otherwise unrecorded daughter of Robert Hatley and Millicent
Barr.


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Nathaniel Taylor

Re: Gov. Thomas Dudley ...

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 20 des 2006 22:30:12

In article <mailman.69.1166648358.30800.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>,
WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 12/20/06 8:21:21 AM Pacific Standard Time,
nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net writes:

That having been said, it is still interesting that *if* Marshall Kirk's
speculation on his ancestry is correct, Governor Thomas Dudley would in
1643 have become the heir male of John, 3d Baron Dudley,

Does anyone have a link to or details on the speculation? I had not heard
previously that Gov Thomas Dudley is supposed to be of that Dudley family.

Kirk's theory is what has been presented in compilations like Roberts,
RD600, etc., for several years. Kirk's work was never published, but
circulated in the early 1990s as charts of the Sutton-Dudleys, a
systematic presentation of circumstantial evidence of the connection of
Roger Dudley to this family, and a review of previous theories. There
are some summaries of Kirk's theory (some by Marshall, some by me) in
the archives of this group. For a precis from the horse's mouth, see
Marshall's note, posted (via Don Stone) to this group on 9 November 2003:

http://groups.google.com/group/soc.gene ... 15afb8b285
2?dmode=source&hl=en

Nat Taylor
http://www.nltaylor.net

Robert Forrest

Elizabeth Grosvenor m. Thomas Culbery or Thomas Bulkeley?

Legg inn av Robert Forrest » 21 des 2006 02:43:13

Plantagenet Ancestry, Richardson, 2004, p. 163:
"...Anne Charlton, born about 1480. She married about 1500 Randall Grosvenor, Esq., of Bellaport (in Muckleston), Shropshire...They had five sons, Thomas, Geoffrey, Robert, Randall, and Henry, and three daughters, Katherine (iwfe of ___ Nash), Elizabeth (wife of Thomas Culbery), and Margery..."

Shouldn't this Thomas "Culbery" be Thomas Bulkeley?

Robert Forrest

Douglas Richardson

Re: Complete Peerage Correction: Parentage of Emme, Joan, &

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 21 des 2006 06:23:55

Dear Newsgroup ~

Below is the transcript of an abstract of a fine dated 1316, by which
Mary Fitz Ranulph, widow of Robert de Neville, settled her Fitz Ranulph
inheritance on herself for life, with reversion of various manors for
life to her younger sons, Master Robert and Ralph de Neville, and
eventual remainder to her grandson, Robert de Neville.

The fine helps explain the train of events leading up to Mary's sole
inheritance of the Fitz Ranulph properties. My files show that Mary
was co-heiress before 28 April 1272 to her younger sister, Anastasia
Hansard, by which she inherited the manor of Snape, Yorkshire. And, in
1310 she was sole heiress to her sister, Joan de Tateshale, by which
she inherited the manors of Crakehale, Thoraldby, and Well, Yorkshire.
Thus, by 1316, the entire Fitz Ranulph inheritance was held by Mary de
Neville.

For further particulars regarding the ancestry of Mary Fitz Ranulph and
her prominent Neville descendants, see Douglas Richardson, Magna Carta
Ancestry (2005).

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

+ + + + + + + + +
Source: Michael Roper & Christopher Kitching, Feet of Fines for the
County of York 1314-1326 (Yorkshire Arch. Soc. Recs. 158) (2006):
14-15.

Date: 1316 Oct. of Trin.

Robert de Nevill, quer., and Mary, widow of Robert de Nevill, deforc.,
of the manors of Middleham, Thoraldby, Welle, Snape, Carleton,
Fagherwald, Nosterfeld, Burton and Crakehale and a messuage and a
carucate of land in Ayeskarth and the advowson of the church there.
Covenant. Robert's right as of Mary's gift. For this he had
granted the same to Mary and has rendered in court. Mary to hold for
life of Robert and his heirs at a yearly rent of a rose at Mids. and
doing services to the chief lords etc. Reversion of the manor of Snape
to Robert and his heirs to hold of the chief lords etc. Remainder of
the manors of Middleham, Thoraldby, Carleton, Nosterfeld, Burton and
Crakehale and the messuage, carucate of land and advowson to Ralph de
Nevill to hold for life of Robert and his heirs for the same services,
with reversion to Robert and his heirs to hold of the chief lords etc.
Remainder of the manor of Fagherwald to Master Robert de Nevill to hold
for life of Robert and his heirs for the same services, with reversion
to Robert and his heirs to hold of the chief lords etc. Successive
remainders of the manor of Welle to (1) Master Robert de Nevill; (2)
Ralph de [Nevill], each to hold for life of Robert and his heirs for
the same services, with reversion to Robert and his heirs to hold of
the chief lords etc. [CP25/1/270/89, No. 40]

Gjest

Re: Offspring of King Robert II "le Pieux" of France (972-10

Legg inn av Gjest » 21 des 2006 07:41:02

Thank you, Mr. Stewart, for taking the time to respond expansively to my
questions about the children of Robert II. Absolute accuracy is my aim, and I
appreciate your providing same.

While on the subject of Robert's offspring, I'm aware of references to a
child attributed to him named Rudolph (b. 1016) who became Archbishop of
Bourges. Since your comments included no mention of Rudolph, I'll assume (as I did
anyway) that the attribution in incorrect. But could you, or someone one,
please explain where the mistake is coming from?

Thanking you in advance,

Mardi

Matthew Hovius

Paston-Yelverton-Mawtby connections.

Legg inn av Matthew Hovius » 21 des 2006 14:40:04

The book 'Maltby-Maltbie Family History', available online at
http://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/
adds a further twist to the tale by stating that the Anne Paston who
married a William Yelverton was a daughter of Edmund Paston, the
youngest son of John Paston and Margaret Mawtby (P. 91). On the other
hand, the compiler of this work, a Dorothy Maltby Verrill, also wrote
on the preceding page that 'these records are very confusing and quite
beyond the compiler to untangle', this seemingly a reference to
multiple contradictions in the Mawtby pedigree(s) such as the fact that
several of these show the wife of Robert Mauteby Esq (+1417) as
Margaret Beauchamp, but in his will made in 1413 he names his wife as
Eleanor (per Blomefield); perhaps simply a second wife, or perhaps the
pedigree is wrong.

Also, William Yelverton the justice is variously attributed birth dates
ranging from 1388 to 1400, but nothing so late as the 1432 given below.

It looks as if a concerted study of the Yelvertons in charters, fines,
patent rolls etc would be needed to determine the validity, if any, of
this claim, if only to better establish the Yelvertons' chronology and
see which of these matches is even possible.



taf wrote:
alden@mindspring.com wrote:
On Dec 17, 12:14 pm, "Nicola" <furrowed_...@yahoo.com> wrote:


9. Margaret Mauteby (b.1422;d.1484)
sp: Sir John Paston the elder, MP (b.1421;d.1466)
10. Anne Paston (b.1434;d.1494)
sp: Sir William Yelverton (b.1432;m.1454;d.1474)

Was not Margaret below dau. of Sir William by 2nd wife Ela de Braose?


11. Margaret Yelverton (b.1440;d.1513)
sp: John Pagrave , Esq (b.1445;m.1469)
12. Henry Palgrave (b.1470;d.1516)


Just to clarify, Margaret was daughter of a different Sir William
Yelverton than the one who married Anne Paston. I don't know that it
has been definitively determined whether Ela de Braose was mother or
step-mother of Margaret.

taf

taf

Re: Paston-Yelverton-Mawtby connections.

Legg inn av taf » 21 des 2006 22:10:52

Matthew Hovius wrote:

Also, William Yelverton the justice is variously attributed birth dates
ranging from 1388 to 1400, but nothing so late as the 1432 given below.

That is because the William b. 1432 who married Anne Paston is _not_
William "the Justice", but rather his grandson, son of his son John.
These must have been short generations, as the Justice lived to 1472.

(fwiw, his memorial brass:
http://www.mbs-brasses.co.uk/pic_lib/Rougham_Brass.htm )

taf

Gjest

Re: Paston-Yelverton-Mawtby connections.

Legg inn av Gjest » 21 des 2006 23:51:02

In a message dated 12/21/06 1:15:50 PM Pacific Standard Time,
farmerie@interfold.com writes:

<< That is because the William b. 1432 who married Anne Paston is _not_
William "the Justice", but rather his grandson, son of his son John.
These must have been short generations, as the Justice lived to 1472. >>

Is it known how William Yelverton the Justice and John Paston, Esq were
cousins?
See
http://books.google.com/books?vid=OCLC6 ... 22+justice

where William Yelverton , Justice calls John Paston Esq "Right worshipful
cousin" and again signs the letter "Your cousin"

Thanks
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Paston-Yelverton-Mawtby connections.

Legg inn av Gjest » 22 des 2006 00:06:02

In a message dated 12/21/06 1:15:50 PM Pacific Standard Time,
farmerie@interfold.com writes:

<< William b. 1432 who married Anne Paston is _not_
William "the Justice", but rather his grandson, son of his son John. >>

Could you explain how you know this?
This reference
http://books.google.com/books?vid=03aJK ... &pg=PA169&
lpg=PA169&dq=%22William+Yelverton%22+justice

shows us that Anne Paston, "my daughter wife of William Yelverton" was
daughter of Margaret Mauteby by John Paston. The reference is the will of Margaret
(Mauteby) Paston which is transcribed at the link above.

The editor adds a footnote, that this William Yelverton was *son* of William
Yelverton the Justice.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Revisiting the marriage and death dates of Constance (Ha

Legg inn av Gjest » 22 des 2006 01:11:02

In a message dated 12/21/06 6:41:56 AM Pacific Standard Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:

<< Creation dates: 15 Mar 1587

Scope and Content

Draft lease [not executed]

(1) William Gostwicke, of Willington

(2) Robert Hatley of Goldington

John Gostwicke, father of (1), by the indenture dated 20 March 4
Elizabeth I [1562], leased to Robert Hatley, father of (2) his manor
place, or graunge called Puttenhoe, lying in the parish of
Goldington,...with all his meadows and pastures with their
appurtnenances in Clapham, execpt Puttenhoe woode parcell of the said
manor or graunge high fyelde, fryers grove, oxecloses and cowe close
then in the tenure of Thomas Dive... from the day of the death of Dame
Margaret, then Countess of Bedford, for 41 years, at £ 30 p.a. >>


This is an interesting document that should also be filed under
"Margaret St John" daughter of John St John of Bledsoe by Margaret Waldegrave.
After her first husband John Gostwick died, Margaret (St John) Gostwick then
married (by 1548) to
Francis Russell (1527-1585), 2nd Earl of Bedford
and by him had at least seven more children

Since the "John Gostwick father of 1" in the document above is living on the
date of indenture 20 Mar 1562 he must be a seperate person from the John
Gostwick who had died by 1548. And then Margaret (St John) 1 Gostwick 2 Russell is
still living at Puttenhoe by her dower rights.

But is the younger John Gostwick *her* son ?

Thanks
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Yet Another C.P. Correction: Emme de Glanville, alleged

Legg inn av Gjest » 22 des 2006 01:41:02

In a message dated 12/21/06 3:51:39 PM Pacific Standard Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:

<< Edmund, Earl of Cornwall,
in order to account for the line of descent, but his wife Margaret is
from other sources known perfectly well to have been a Clare, not a
Glanville. >>

Although they were divorced some years before he died, and he is-said-to have
been at least 23 when they married. So there is room for two wives.

Will Johnson

Dora Smith

How far back does the name Rice go in East Anglia - and how

Legg inn av Dora Smith » 22 des 2006 02:22:02

Good ol' Edmund Rice from outside of Bury St. Edmunds, Suffolk, in East
Anglia, who migrated to Massachusetts in the 1630's, had Norse Y DNA. His
Y DNA was so Norse, it had an entire constellation of markers that are
exclusively Norse. Even if most Normans were not Norse, this one
apparently was.

His origin is unknown. But he probably did not come from a different part
of England. Even the father of a bipolar wanderer would not have come
from, for instance, Wales. LOL! And the name Rice turns up elsewhere
around Bury St. Edmunds in the early 17th century.

But how did his surname originate? Can anyone say how far it goes back in
East Anglia? Would it ahve undergone the i vowel shift?

The name of Edmund and that of various Rice neighbors was also spelled Ryce
and Rise in the early 17th century.

Yours,
Dora Smith
Austin, TX
tiggernut24@yahoo.com



--
Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 7.5.431 / Virus Database: 268.14.19/556 - Release Date: 11/28/2006 3:22 PM

taf

Re: How far back does the name Rice go in East Anglia - and

Legg inn av taf » 22 des 2006 09:11:59

Dora Smith wrote:
Good ol' Edmund Rice from outside of Bury St. Edmunds, Suffolk, in East
Anglia, who migrated to Massachusetts in the 1630's, had Norse Y DNA. His
Y DNA was so Norse, it had an entire constellation of markers that are
exclusively Norse. Even if most Normans were not Norse, this one
apparently was.

What makes you think he was Norman?

taf

Chris Dickinson

Re: How far back does the name Rice go in East Anglia - and

Legg inn av Chris Dickinson » 22 des 2006 11:31:52

Dora Smith wrote:

<snip>
Good ol' Edmund Rice from outside of Bury St. Edmunds, Suffolk, in East
Anglia, who migrated to Massachusetts in the 1630's, had Norse Y DNA. His
Y DNA was so Norse, it had an entire constellation of markers that are
exclusively Norse. Even if most Normans were not Norse, this one
apparently was.

Do you mean Norse as in generally Viking Scandinavian? Or Norse as
Norwegian - as distinct from Danish?

His origin is unknown. But he probably did not come from a different part
of England. Even the father of a bipolar wanderer would not have come
from, for instance, Wales. LOL! And the name Rice turns up elsewhere
around Bury St. Edmunds in the early 17th century.
snip


It's surprising how strong coastal trade was round Britain. Movement between
Wales (with Norse DNA markers!) and East Anglia isn't far-fetched. Still, if
you've got lots of families in East Anglia named Rice then it's pointless to
look elsewhere!

Chris

Matt Tompkins

Re: How far back does the name Rice go in East Anglia - and

Legg inn av Matt Tompkins » 22 des 2006 17:24:15

Dora Smith wrote:
Good ol' Edmund Rice from outside of Bury St. Edmunds, Suffolk, in East
Anglia, who migrated to Massachusetts in the 1630's, had Norse Y DNA. His
Y DNA was so Norse, it had an entire constellation of markers that are
exclusively Norse. Even if most Normans were not Norse, this one
apparently was.

His origin is unknown. But he probably did not come from a different part
of England. Even the father of a bipolar wanderer would not have come
from, for instance, Wales. LOL! And the name Rice turns up elsewhere
around Bury St. Edmunds in the early 17th century.

But how did his surname originate? Can anyone say how far it goes back in
East Anglia? Would it ahve undergone the i vowel shift?


The surname Rice goes back a long way in Suffolk. The 1638 muster roll
for Suffolk listed 6 men called Rice and 3 called Rise or Ryse. The
1524/5 lay subsidy return for Suffolk listed at least one Ryce
(mentioned in Reaney's Dictionary of English Surnames). In 1445/6 a
John and Elizabeth Rys of Thaxted in Essex owned land in Mildenhall in
Suffolk (Calendar of Feet of Fines for Suffolk) and the 1327 lay
subsidy roll for the county listed two men called Rys, in Brettenham
and Worlingham (other surnames ending in -ice are commonly spellt
-ys in this period; Rys would probably have been pronounced like the
modern Rice).

I wouldn't like to hazard a guess as to the surname's origins. Its
presence in Suffolk at such early dates doesn't entirely rule out a
Welsh origin - Welsh surnames were found in the Midlands in the same
period - but Richard McKinley's Norfolk and Suffolk Surnames in the
Middle Ages states that 'up to and including the early 16th century,
very few surnames (whether locative surnames, or ones in other
categories) that can be definitely identified as Welsh, Scots, or Irish
occur in East Anglia' (p. 100).

Curiously, a brief flick through the Norfolk poll tax returns reveals a
Hugh de Rys in Toftrees and a Phillip de Rys nearby in West Raynham in
1379 (Carolyn Fenwick's edition, ii, p. 103). Could it have been a
toponymic, or perhaps topographic, surname?

Matt Tompkins

Nathaniel Taylor

Re: ... Rice ... East Anglia

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 22 des 2006 17:46:40

In article <1166804655.014485.130760@a3g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>,
"Matt Tompkins" <mllt1@le.ac.uk> wrote:

Dora Smith wrote:
Good ol' Edmund Rice from outside of Bury St. Edmunds, Suffolk, in East
Anglia, who migrated to Massachusetts in the 1630's, had Norse Y DNA. His
Y DNA was so Norse, it had an entire constellation of markers that are
exclusively Norse. Even if most Normans were not Norse, this one
apparently was.

His origin is unknown. But he probably did not come from a different part
of England. Even the father of a bipolar wanderer would not have come
from, for instance, Wales. LOL! And the name Rice turns up elsewhere
around Bury St. Edmunds in the early 17th century.

But how did his surname originate? Can anyone say how far it goes back in
East Anglia? Would it ahve undergone the i vowel shift?


The surname Rice goes back a long way in Suffolk. The 1638 muster roll
for Suffolk listed 6 men called Rice and 3 called Rise or Ryse. The
1524/5 lay subsidy return for Suffolk listed at least one Ryce
(mentioned in Reaney's Dictionary of English Surnames). In 1445/6 a
John and Elizabeth Rys of Thaxted in Essex owned land in Mildenhall in
Suffolk (Calendar of Feet of Fines for Suffolk) and the 1327 lay
subsidy roll for the county listed two men called Rys, in Brettenham
and Worlingham (other surnames ending in -ice are commonly spellt
-ys in this period; Rys would probably have been pronounced like the
modern Rice).

I wouldn't like to hazard a guess as to the surname's origins. Its
presence in Suffolk at such early dates doesn't entirely rule out a
Welsh origin - Welsh surnames were found in the Midlands in the same
period - but Richard McKinley's Norfolk and Suffolk Surnames in the
Middle Ages states that 'up to and including the early 16th century,
very few surnames (whether locative surnames, or ones in other
categories) that can be definitely identified as Welsh, Scots, or Irish
occur in East Anglia' (p. 100).

Curiously, a brief flick through the Norfolk poll tax returns reveals a
Hugh de Rys in Toftrees and a Phillip de Rys nearby in West Raynham in
1379 (Carolyn Fenwick's edition, ii, p. 103). Could it have been a
toponymic, or perhaps topographic, surname?

Reaney & Wilson gloss 'Rice' simply (among a list of spelling variants)
as derived from the Welsh forename Rhys, citing scattered English
examples from the 12th century forward with no particular geographic
focus. They don't mention a form 'de Rhys' though there could well have
been a toponym of some sort which was later regularized and assimilated
to the Welsh-derived patronymic. As an analogue they do gloss two
meanings of 'Price': one from 'ap Rhys' but the other simply a metonymic
for a merchant or exchange cashier (price). Bet it would be hard to
sort out the merchants from the Welshmen now.

Back to the original post: I don't think the 'Norse' or even 'very
Norse' Y-DNA profile (I believe these geographic/ethnographic labels for
specific genetic profiles are rather misleading) adds any useful
information about the origins of Rices in general or this particular
colonial immigrant (about whom a lot of junk has been published).
Although he appears to have been married at Bury in 1618 (apparently
then aged about 24), he may have come from anywhere.

Nat Taylor
http://www.nltaylor.net

Matt Tompkins

Re: ... Rice ... East Anglia

Legg inn av Matt Tompkins » 22 des 2006 18:12:28

Nathaniel Taylor wrote:
Reaney & Wilson gloss 'Rice' simply (among a list of spelling variants)
as derived from the Welsh forename Rhys, citing scattered English
examples from the 12th century forward with no particular geographic
focus. They don't mention a form 'de Rhys' though there could well have
been a toponym of some sort which was later regularized and assimilated
to the Welsh-derived patronymic. As an analogue they do gloss two
meanings of 'Price': one from 'ap Rhys' but the other simply a metonymic
for a merchant or exchange cashier (price). Bet it would be hard to
sort out the merchants from the Welshmen now.


All that's only relevant if the Suffolk surname is indeed derived from
the Welsh name Rhys - but my point was that Rice's early appearance in
Suffolk (in the 14th century) makes a Welsh origin doubtful (though not
impossible). A local East Anglian origin then becomes more likely -
however I have no idea what it might be, except that the occurrence of
de Rys in Norfolk makes a toponymic or topographic explanation worth
considering. However assimilation to a Welsh name is hardly likely in
14th century East Anglia, a time and place when Welsh names were
extremely rare.

The possible English origin of the surname Price in an appraiser cannot
be relevant to the name Rice - Price is only connected to Rice when
they are both Welsh surnames.

Matt

Nathaniel Taylor

Re: ... Rice ... East Anglia

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 22 des 2006 19:47:05

In article <1166807548.361269.217580@42g2000cwt.googlegroups.com>,
"Matt Tompkins" <mllt1@le.ac.uk> wrote:

Nathaniel Taylor wrote:
Reaney & Wilson gloss 'Rice' simply (among a list of spelling variants)
as derived from the Welsh forename Rhys, citing scattered English
examples from the 12th century forward with no particular geographic
focus. They don't mention a form 'de Rhys' though there could well have
been a toponym of some sort which was later regularized and assimilated
to the Welsh-derived patronymic. As an analogue they do gloss two
meanings of 'Price': one from 'ap Rhys' but the other simply a metonymic
for a merchant or exchange cashier (price). Bet it would be hard to
sort out the merchants from the Welshmen now.


All that's only relevant if the Suffolk surname is indeed derived from
the Welsh name Rhys - but my point was that Rice's early appearance in
Suffolk (in the 14th century) makes a Welsh origin doubtful (though not
impossible). A local East Anglian origin then becomes more likely -
however I have no idea what it might be, except that the occurrence of
de Rys in Norfolk makes a toponymic or topographic explanation worth
considering. However assimilation to a Welsh name is hardly likely in
14th century East Anglia, a time and place when Welsh names were
extremely rare.

I'm not sure that just because the name appears early it cannot be from
a Welsh forename. Reaney & Wilson's earliest references are sparse and
scattered: Wm Res in Lincolnshire (a 1203 Curia Regis roll); John Rees
in a Suffolk Fine of 1288; then others in Shropshire & Worcester who are
even more likely to be Welsh.

Your additional 14th-c. citations don't suggest to me that the name
cannot be simply from the Welsh forename. I'm sure McKinley's
observation about the paucity of Welsh names is true in the aggregate;
does his work (which I haven't seen) opine on this particular case?
Even the 'de Rys' form could have evolved into that by erroneous
assimilation and not originally have been a toponymic.

If you've given thought to this name in that region, do you have
candidate places or topographic words which might lie behind it?

The possible English origin of the surname Price in an appraiser cannot
be relevant to the name Rice - Price is only connected to Rice when
they are both Welsh surnames.

Despite the affiliation of 'Price' and 'Rhys' I was not suggesting it
was germane other than as an example of the assimilation of one surname
from two distinct origins, which may well also be the case for 'Rhys'
here.

Nat Taylor
http://www.nltaylor.net

Chris Dickinson

Re: ... Rice ... East Anglia

Legg inn av Chris Dickinson » 22 des 2006 20:17:43

Nat Taylor wrote:

<snip>
Back to the original post: I don't think the 'Norse' or even 'very
Norse' Y-DNA profile (I believe these geographic/ethnographic labels for
specific genetic profiles are rather misleading) adds any useful
information about the origins of Rices in general or this particular
colonial immigrant (about whom a lot of junk has been published).
snip


Yes, I doubt that modern DNA studies add anything useful to genealogy at the
moment.

My understanding about 'Norse' markers is that it isn't possible to
distinguish between Danish and Anglo-Saxon populations clearly in England,
but there is a specific marker for Norwegian settlers that, in confirmation
of traditional views on settlement, is strongest around the Irish Sea. Were
the OP making reference to this, then it might provide some support for a
Welsh origin.

I can cite two examples that I've come across of (non-gentry) people from
the west coast having connections in East Anglia in the seventeenth century.

The archives of the Dixon family of Rheda in Arlecdon in Cumberland (who did
very well out of a marriage into John Steele Gordon's Steele family),
available on an A2A search, show that they had land in Islington in Norfolk.

There is (though I can't find the reference on TNA at the moment - if anyone
does come across it, I'd be glad of the reference) a record of East Anglian
parishioners complaining about their curate, a Gilbert Mirehouse, not only
drunk (if I remember right) but with a thick Scottish accent. Mirehouse is a
rare surname mostly found in the parish of Loweswater in Cumberland - and
the name Gilbert used by one specific family.

Chris

Gjest

Re: Revisiting the marriage and death dates of Constance (Ha

Legg inn av Gjest » 22 des 2006 20:36:02

In a message dated 12/22/06 8:50:55 AM Pacific Standard Time,
starbuck95@hotmail.com writes:

<< I believe his wife Dorothy Hampden, whom he married 24th Oct. 1587 at
Great Hampden, was also a Brome of Baddesley Clinton descendant [she
was a daughter of Griffith Hampden, granddaughter of Elizabeth
(Ferrers) Hampden, and great-granddaughter of Edward Ferrers, by his
wife Constance Brome]. >>

And her mother Anna was a CAVE !
per
stirnet.com/HTML/genie/british/cc4aq/cave02.html
daughter of
Anthony Cave by his wife Elizabeth Lovett

Now I can attach all these people to Richard Cecil.
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: That John Newdigate, second husband of Elizabeth Lovett

Legg inn av Gjest » 23 des 2006 01:01:02

In a message dated 12/22/06 3:51:43 PM Pacific Standard Time,
chris@dickinson.uk.net writes:

<< Who stated it? Your logic is fine if those are the actual words used in
1569, but not if it was written after she had remarried. >>

Here is the original source
<a href =
"http://content.ancestry.com/Browse/BookView.aspx?dbid=10231&iid=dvm_GenMono000052-00013-1">"Ancestry of Jeremy Clarke", pg 23</a> that she was
already called "Elizabeth Weston by 2 Feb 1568/9"


Since posting that I've found that the date of her remarriage to Richard
Weston, Justice of the Common Pleas is there
stated as 7 Jul 1566


<a href =
"http://content.ancestry.com/Browse/BookView.aspx?dbid=10231&iid=dvm_GenMono000052-00015-0">"Ancestry of Jeremy Clarke", pg 25</a>

Will Johnson

taf

Re: Paston-Yelverton-Mawtby connections.

Legg inn av taf » 23 des 2006 01:09:18

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

Is it known how William Yelverton the Justice and John Paston, Esq were
cousins?

Not by me.



WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 12/21/06 1:15:50 PM Pacific Standard Time,
farmerie@interfold.com writes:

William b. 1432 who married Anne Paston is _not_
William "the Justice", but rather his grandson, son of his son John.

Could you explain how you know this?

http://www.uk-genealogy.org.uk/england/ ... isitation/

p. 327-8 (note that the Braose marriage is misplaced)

I have seen a Yelverton pedigree in another Visitation, but I don't
recall which. FInally, there is Blomefield.

taf

Gjest

Re: Paston-Yelverton-Mawtby connections.

Legg inn av Gjest » 23 des 2006 01:31:02

In a message dated 12/22/06 4:10:51 PM Pacific Standard Time,
farmerie@interfold.com writes:

<< http://www.uk-genealogy.org.uk/england/ ... isitation/
p. 327-8 (note that the Braose marriage is misplaced) >>

Would you agree that the source I cited would presumably know about the
Visitation entry and that their comment is to correct it?

taf

Re: Paston-Yelverton-Mawtby connections.

Legg inn av taf » 23 des 2006 02:21:26

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 12/22/06 4:10:51 PM Pacific Standard Time,
farmerie@interfold.com writes:

http://www.uk-genealogy.org.uk/england/ ... isitation/
p. 327-8 (note that the Braose marriage is misplaced)

Would you agree that the source I cited would presumably know about the
Visitation entry and that their comment is to correct it?

No, I would not. No reference, no discussion, no indication that it
corrects anything. It doesn't look like any special effort went into
preparing that comment: it looks to me like nothing but a throw-away
detail - "Oh, by the way, this person is son of sombody famous."
Exactly the kind of thing that numerous authors have done before and
since, and they regularly drive genealogists nuts, because the
historians don't bother to do minimal fact-checking.


By the way, the other Visitation I couldn't recall is the following:

http://books.google.com/books?vid=OCLC0 ... 4-PA266,M1

It looks like the author of this one saw the will of William's mother.

taf

Dora Smith

Re: How far back does the name Rice go in East Anglia - and

Legg inn av Dora Smith » 23 des 2006 03:20:22

Matt:

Can you please send me the details that correspond to what you said below.
I'd be very interested to have them. Thanks!

As for de Rys, this sounds like one of the Norman names some people think
Edmund's name may descend from.

--
Yours,
Dora Smith
Austin, TX
tiggernut24@yahoo.com

"Matt Tompkins" <mllt1@le.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:1166804655.014485.130760@a3g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
Dora Smith wrote:
Good ol' Edmund Rice from outside of Bury St. Edmunds, Suffolk, in East
Anglia, who migrated to Massachusetts in the 1630's, had Norse Y DNA.
His
Y DNA was so Norse, it had an entire constellation of markers that are
exclusively Norse. Even if most Normans were not Norse, this one
apparently was.

His origin is unknown. But he probably did not come from a different
part
of England. Even the father of a bipolar wanderer would not have come
from, for instance, Wales. LOL! And the name Rice turns up elsewhere
around Bury St. Edmunds in the early 17th century.

But how did his surname originate? Can anyone say how far it goes back
in
East Anglia? Would it ahve undergone the i vowel shift?


The surname Rice goes back a long way in Suffolk. The 1638 muster roll
for Suffolk listed 6 men called Rice and 3 called Rise or Ryse. The
1524/5 lay subsidy return for Suffolk listed at least one Ryce
(mentioned in Reaney's Dictionary of English Surnames). In 1445/6 a
John and Elizabeth Rys of Thaxted in Essex owned land in Mildenhall in
Suffolk (Calendar of Feet of Fines for Suffolk) and the 1327 lay
subsidy roll for the county listed two men called Rys, in Brettenham
and Worlingham (other surnames ending in -ice are commonly spellt
-ys in this period; Rys would probably have been pronounced like the
modern Rice).

I wouldn't like to hazard a guess as to the surname's origins. Its
presence in Suffolk at such early dates doesn't entirely rule out a
Welsh origin - Welsh surnames were found in the Midlands in the same
period - but Richard McKinley's Norfolk and Suffolk Surnames in the
Middle Ages states that 'up to and including the early 16th century,
very few surnames (whether locative surnames, or ones in other
categories) that can be definitely identified as Welsh, Scots, or Irish
occur in East Anglia' (p. 100).

Curiously, a brief flick through the Norfolk poll tax returns reveals a
Hugh de Rys in Toftrees and a Phillip de Rys nearby in West Raynham in
1379 (Carolyn Fenwick's edition, ii, p. 103). Could it have been a
toponymic, or perhaps topographic, surname?

Matt Tompkins

Dora Smith

Re: ... Rice ... East Anglia

Legg inn av Dora Smith » 23 des 2006 03:22:30

Nathaniel:

Can you please send me the details on these.

Welsh or not, they could indeed be related.

Thanks!

--
Yours,
Dora Smith
Austin, TX
tiggernut24@yahoo.com

"Nathaniel Taylor" <nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:nathanieltaylor-F1B335.13470522122006@news.west.earthlink.net...
In article <1166807548.361269.217580@42g2000cwt.googlegroups.com>,
I'm not sure that just because the name appears early it cannot be from
a Welsh forename. Reaney & Wilson's earliest references are sparse and
scattered: Wm Res in Lincolnshire (a 1203 Curia Regis roll); John Rees
in a Suffolk Fine of 1288; then others in Shropshire & Worcester who are
even more likely to be Welsh.

Nat Taylor
http://www.nltaylor.net

Dora Smith

Re: ... Rice ... East Anglia

Legg inn av Dora Smith » 23 des 2006 03:30:58

Chris:

I'll explain this one more time.

1. The Saxons came from what is now Denmark, so hardly surprising if Saxon
and Danish DNA cannot be distinguished from each other - which as far as I
know, they cannot.

2. Norway is not in Denmark. Look on a map, and you will see that this is
true.

Norway is consistently genetically very different from Denmark.

3. Norse people may have on occasion been in Denmark, and most Normans
were not Norse - but Edmund Rice's direct paternal ancestry was Norse. If
he spent time in Denmark and traded across the English channel, he was even
still Norse.

--
Yours,
Dora Smith
Austin, TX
tiggernut24@yahoo.com
"Chris Dickinson" <chris@dickinson.uk.net> wrote in message
news:z-KdnRSZVtMPshHYRVnyrAA@bt.com...
Nat Taylor wrote:

snip
Back to the original post: I don't think the 'Norse' or even 'very
Norse' Y-DNA profile (I believe these geographic/ethnographic labels for
specific genetic profiles are rather misleading) adds any useful
information about the origins of Rices in general or this particular
colonial immigrant (about whom a lot of junk has been published).
snip

Yes, I doubt that modern DNA studies add anything useful to genealogy at
the moment.

My understanding about 'Norse' markers is that it isn't possible to
distinguish between Danish and Anglo-Saxon populations clearly in England,
but there is a specific marker for Norwegian settlers that, in
confirmation of traditional views on settlement, is strongest around the
Irish Sea. Were the OP making reference to this, then it might provide
some support for a Welsh origin.

I can cite two examples that I've come across of (non-gentry) people from
the west coast having connections in East Anglia in the seventeenth
century.

The archives of the Dixon family of Rheda in Arlecdon in Cumberland (who
did very well out of a marriage into John Steele Gordon's Steele family),
available on an A2A search, show that they had land in Islington in
Norfolk.

There is (though I can't find the reference on TNA at the moment - if
anyone does come across it, I'd be glad of the reference) a record of East
Anglian parishioners complaining about their curate, a Gilbert Mirehouse,
not only drunk (if I remember right) but with a thick Scottish accent.
Mirehouse is a rare surname mostly found in the parish of Loweswater in
Cumberland - and the name Gilbert used by one specific family.

Chris

Nathaniel Taylor

Re: ... Rice ... East Anglia

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 23 des 2006 05:28:42

In article <458c92ca$0$7680$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>,
"Dora Smith" <villandra@austin.rr.com> wrote:

Nathaniel:

Can you please send me the details on these.

Welsh or not, they could indeed be related.

Feel free to look it up in the _Oxford Dictionary of English Surnames_,
3d, revised ed., s.n. 'Rhys', where I found these references.

Nat Taylor
http://www.nltaylor.net

Leo van de Pas

Re: Royal descents

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 23 des 2006 08:13:21

Dear Will,

What a horrendous question.

I have just finished a project (with Ian Fettes) which gives lines of
descent from Geoffrey V of Anjou.
For the selected people only the shortest (according to the ancestor list
system) is given but by the person (there are 360 of these) is given the
number of descent from Geoffrey V -----which means according to my data
base. I already know that for some there are many more.

Here a few examples

Juan Carlos King of Spain 1938- ----------------------------------1,399,295
times
Margarethe II Queen of Denmark 1940- --------------------------1,159,191
times
Carl XVI Gustaf King of Sweden 1946- --------------------------1,082,798
times
Dr. Otto von Habsburg 1912- ------------------------------------1,021,554
times
Constantine II King of Greece 1940- ---------------------998,901 times
Michael I King of Roumania 1921- ------------------------949,927 times
Harald V King of Norway 1937- --------------------------787,447 times
Albert II King of the Belgians 1934- -----------------------683,844 times
Prince Philip the Duke of Edinburgh 1921- ----------------518,591 times
Beatrix Queen of The Netherlands, 1938- ----------------489,240 times
Umberto II, King of Italy 1904-1983----------------------407,117 times
Elizabeth II Queen of Great Britain 1926- ----------------297,840 times
Sarah Ferguson 1959- ----------------------------66,985 times
Albert II Prince of Monaco 1958- ----------------53,480 times
Lady Diana Spencer 1961-1997 -----------------41,466 times
Rachel Ward 1957- ------------------------------39,773 times
Peter de Loriol 1954- ---------------------------26,287 times
Jane Birkin 1946- --------------------------------25,496 times
Cayetana, Duchess of Alba 1926- ---------------24,944 times
David Cameron 1966- --------------------------24,876 (Britain's next PM?)
Lady Antonia Fraser 1932- ---------------------17,711 times (author and
historian)
Gottfried von Einem 1918-1996------------------16,171 times (composer)
Leka I of Albania 1939- -------------------------14,554 times
Brooke Shields 1965- ---------------------------12,337 times
Mathilde d'Udeken d'Acoz 1973- ------------------------8,471 times
Elizabeth the Queen Mother 1900-2002 ------------------7,957 times
Camilla Parker-Bowles 1947- ---------------------------7,762 times
Manfred von Richthofen 1892-1918 ----------------------7,219 times (the Red
Baron)
Count Fritz Szapary 1869-1935---------------------------6,232 times
Don Scipione Borghese 1871-1927 -----------------------6,112 times (Peking
to Paris)
Aga Khan IV 1936- --------------------------------------4,193 times
Finn Holbek 1958- -------------------------------------- 2,898 times
Guy Ritchie 1968- ----------------------------------------1,915 times
(married to Madonna)
Hugh Grant 1960- ----------------------------------------1,842 times
(actor)
Simon Fairthorne 1941- ----------------------------------1,648 times
Bertha von Suttner 1843-1914 ---------------------------1,343 times (Nobel
prize winner)
Fridtjof Nansen 1861-1930 ------------------------------1,109 times
Tim Powys-Lybbe 1938- ---------------------899 times
Wernher von Braun 1912-1977 ---------------752 times
John Steele Gordon 1944- --------------------605 times
Ian Fettes 1945- ------------------------------576 times
James Smithson 1765-1829 -------------------436 times
....................have been told he has many more
Clifton James 1897- ---------------------------340 times (during WW II was
Monty's double)
Ralph Vaughan Williams 1872-1958 -----------314 times (composer)
Audrey Hepburn 1929-1993 ------------------212 times
Sophie Rhys-Jones 1965- ---------------------204 times
Tony Hoskins 1948- --------------------------179 times
George Walker Bush 1946- ------------------115 times
Gary Boyd Roberts 1943 --------------------102 times
Gilbert von Studnitz 1950- -------------99 times
Rob Roy McGregor 1671-1734 -------95 times
John Ravilious 1954- -----------------90 times
Graham Greene 1904-1991 ------------89 times
Sir Francis Chichester 1901-1972 -------85 times
George Washington 1732-1799 ---------84 times
Valery Giscard d'Estaing 1926- --------84 times
Baron Pierre de Coubertin 1863-1937 ---68 times (reviver of the Olympic
games)
Meriwether Lewis 1774-1809 ----------67 times
David Starr Jordan 1851-1931 ---------67 times
Pope Benedict XIII 1649-1730 ---------60 times
the Marquis de Sade 1740-1814 --------57 times
Calvin Coolidge 1872-1933 ------------46 times (USA president)
Uma Thurman 1970- ------------------45 times
Kate Middleton 1982- ------------------44 times
Werner von Blomberg 1878-1946------39 times
Josephine de Beauharnais 1763-1814----28 times
Doug McDonald 1944- -----------------28 times
William Addams Reitwiesner 1954- -----26 times
Tom Hanks 1956- ----------------------9 times
Marcus Schenkenberg 1968- -----------8 times
Benjamin Harrison 1833-1901 ---------8 times (USA president)
George Andrews Moriarty 1883-1968 ------8 times
Jacques Lucien Monod 1910-1976 -----7 times (Nobel prize winner)
Prince Henrik of Denmark 1934- ------6 times
Donald Lines Jacobus 1887-1970 -------4 times
Arfturo Beeche 1965- -----------------4 times
Grant Menzies 1964- ------------------3 times
Michael Andrews-Reading 1968- -------2 times
Hermann Goering 1893-1946 ----------2 times


You ask about Edward III but the best person to ask is Ian Fettes, but I
doubt that he is able to say who has the most, because that is really a kind
of guessing.............who had thought that Jane Birkin had so many lines
to Geoffrey V of Anjou?

Hope this is of interest.
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas,
Canberra, Australia


----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 4:49 PM
Subject: Royal descents


I just finished a project today where I found that my target person has no
less than seven seperate ascents to Richard Cecil.

That made me wonder if there have been studies to try to find the "most
common ancestor" of the titled class, or alternatively if there are
members of the
titled class for which every great-great-greatparent ascends to say Edward
III
or something like that.

That's not very clear is it?

I've heard that practically every European has an ascent to Charlemagne,
but
what person has the most ascents to Edward III (for example)? On this
list
there have been postings in the past showing that Prince Charles has a
lot, but
does he have the most ?

Will Johnson

-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
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quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Gjest

Re: Royal descents

Legg inn av Gjest » 23 des 2006 11:08:40

Leo van de Pas wrote:
I have just finished a project (with Ian Fettes) which gives lines of
descent from Geoffrey V of Anjou.
For the selected people only the shortest (according to the ancestor list
system) is given but by the person (there are 360 of these) is given the
number of descent from Geoffrey V -----which means according to my data
base. I already know that for some there are many more.

Here a few examples


Michael Andrews-Reading 1968- -------2 times
Hermann Goering 1893-1946 ----------2 times

Dear Leo

I am in questionable company! You are very close: I have three known
descents, each through John Docwra (d 1531): from King John via the
Huddlestons [incidentally, the line in Genealogics needs amending - I
can sent details off-list if it would help]; from Henry II via the
Longespees, and also from Geoffrey's illegitimate son Hamelin, via
Eleanor de Bohun.

A very interesting list!

Cheers, Michael

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: Royal descents

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 23 des 2006 11:31:29

In message of 23 Dec, mjcar@btinternet.com wrote:

Leo van de Pas wrote:

I have just finished a project (with Ian Fettes) which gives lines of
descent from Geoffrey V of Anjou.
For the selected people only the shortest (according to the ancestor list
system) is given but by the person (there are 360 of these) is given the
number of descent from Geoffrey V -----which means according to my data
base. I already know that for some there are many more.

Here a few examples


Michael Andrews-Reading 1968- -------2 times
Hermann Goering 1893-1946 ----------2 times

Dear Leo

I am in questionable company!

At least people wake up and take notice.

You are very close: I have three known descents, each through John
Docwra (d 1531): from King John via the Huddlestons [incidentally, the
line in Genealogics needs amending - I can sent details off-list if it
would help];

I would like to see this on-list, please. (Or at least the medieval
part of it.)

from Henry II via the Longespees, and also from Geoffrey's
illegitimate son Hamelin, via Eleanor de Bohun.


--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/

Gjest

Re: Royal descents

Legg inn av Gjest » 24 des 2006 00:26:02

Dear Leo, Will and others,
Prince William of Wales and his
brother Harry apparently have at least 857,897 descents from old Geoffrey
Plantagenet (Duke of Edinburgh + Queen Elizabeth II + Diana ). I honestly don`t know
how many descents I have (Philip Nelson was a descendant of Henry III 30+ times
and Percival Lowell who at at least 3 descents is an ancestor 3 times over,
Bolles had at least 2, the Deighton sisters around 5 , So I seem to have
around 46 descents.

Sincerely,

James W Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA

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