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Gjest

Re: Elftred 'the Englishman' - ancestor of the Curwens ofWor

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 nov 2006 20:04:02

In a message dated 11/18/06 2:26:08 AM Pacific Standard Time,
andrew.en.inge@skynet.be writes:

<<
3. In 1139 William I de Lancaster is said to have been Castellan of Wiliam
Fitz Duncan's castle of Egremont. William's Fitz Duncan's mother was
apparently Uchtreda, daughter of Gospatric, son of Maldred, son of Crinan. >>

Can you state what source you are using for the above?
Thanks
Will Johnson

Andrew and Inge

RE: Elftred 'the Englishman' - ancestor of the Curwens ofWor

Legg inn av Andrew and Inge » 19 nov 2006 20:45:33

Hello Will

Yes, well, that's the problem. The internet is full of rubbish and I am
wondering if there are real sources for this.

I believe the second remark, about William Fitz Duncan's mother, may even
come from Wikipedia.

....so I am interested to know if these things are true, but I have a problem
proving it.

Best Regards
Andrew

-----Original Message-----
From: WJhonson@aol.com [mailto:WJhonson@aol.com]
Sent: Sunday, 19 November 2006 8:02 PM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Elftred 'the Englishman' - ancestor of the Curwens
ofWorkington&de Lanca...


In a message dated 11/18/06 2:26:08 AM Pacific Standard Time,
andrew.en.inge@skynet.be writes:

<<
3. In 1139 William I de Lancaster is said to have been Castellan of Wiliam
Fitz Duncan's castle of Egremont. William's Fitz Duncan's mother was
apparently Uchtreda, daughter of Gospatric, son of Maldred, son of Crinan.

Can you state what source you are using for the above?
Thanks
Will Johnson

Andrew and Inge

RE: NORMAN INVASION OF England

Legg inn av Andrew and Inge » 19 nov 2006 20:55:35

As I understand it, laws written in England (by the most Norman of the
Normans therefore), referred to the invading people as the French. (There
were special laws about them, which attempted to discourage people from
attacking them.) I'd guess that Anglo-Norman poetry does the same.

The way I see it, the context makes all the difference. If you were talking
about 1066, the obvious way to describe the ethnic make up of the two armies
was as English and French (despite our modern way of speaking) because they
were not simply Norman. If you were talking about politics in France, this
would just not do because the Normans, who had led this invasion, were
obviously a very distinct party within France.

I am surprised to hear that people spoke of Normandy as if it were not part
of France, and wonder if you could cite a source?

Best Regards
Andrew

-----Original Message-----
From: Nathaniel Taylor [mailto:nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net]
Sent: Sunday, 19 November 2006 8:12 PM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: NORMAN INVASION OF England

I would emphasize that the Normans (lords or chroniclers) normally did
not call themselves 'French'. To them (e.g. to Orderic) 'French' meant
their neighbors and enemies to the South, those of the Ile de France.
Yes, the invasion of 1066 had Bretons and Flemings as well as Normans,
all of whom had some nominal political connection to the king of the
French as their overlord in some contexts, and all of whom shared to
varying degrees in 'French' language and culture. Some contemporary
English sources might refer to all the newcomers of 1066
indescriminately as 'French', but I'm not sure of that, and I assumed
that they ordinarily did not. What does the Peterborough Chronicle call
them? As for the people, so for the places. I believe that when a man
in England was said to be departing for 'France' in the eleventh or
twelfth centuries he was not going to Normandy (except en route).

Nat Taylor
http://www.nltaylor.net

jonathan kirton

Re: Margaret Eylesford: VCH Essex extract

Legg inn av jonathan kirton » 19 nov 2006 21:24:05

To: MM & Will Johnson,

Can you please explain how the two Roger Belers, father
and son; the son
having a daughter Margaret Belers; so that Ralph Cromwell,
son of Ralph
Cromwell, 1st. Lord Cromwell of Tattershall, was able to
claim to be the heir
of this Margaret ? (quoting CPR Hen. VI, pages 290 - 294),
and how they may
be related to the family of Bellers of Kirby Bellers, co.
Leics. ?
("Kirby" is not mentioned at all in the given ref. ?)
This family is shown in "Middlesex Pedigrees", pages 12 /
13 / 14, under
"Leeke of Wyer Hall, Edmonton", which would seem to
indicate that the
Bellers of Kirby Bellers did indeed fail in the male line
at about the time
indicated, but that this occurred as a result of the death
of John Bellars, dsp,
the only son of John Bellers of Kirby Bellars, who was
the only son of
Sir James Bellers, knight, and his wife, Margarett, dau. of
Nicholas Bernake.
The John Bellers who died sans progeny left four sisters:-
Joane, Margaret, Ellyn and Maryan, who were presumably
all his coheirs.
Margaret Bellers became the lady prioress of Langley,
while Joane
and Maryan both married, but evidently had no
children. Ellyn married
William Ruskyn of nearby Melton Mowbray, co. Leics., and had
a son, Jasper
(obit s.p.) and three daughters, Anne Ruskyn and Margarett
Ruskyn, who
became their father's coheirs, and Catherin, who became a
nun at Powlesworth
Abbey. Anne Ruskin, by then Mrs. Anne Leeke, married as
her 2nd. husband,
John Kirton, (no, not Sir John) an attorney, and former
Member of Parliament,
who died at Edmonton, Middlesex in 1529. His tomb in
All Saints' Church,
Edmonton, for many years displayed the blazons of his two
wives: firstly that
of Margaret (nee White), and secondly that of Anne (nee
Ruskyn), which was
quartered as follows: Bellers / Howby / Ruskyn / Bellers.

I will shortly be receiving Harleian MS 1551, folio 7,
which may throw a bit
more light on the situation.

Sincerely,

Jonathan Kirton

Tim Powys-Lybbe

RE: Elftred 'the Englishman' - ancestor of the Curwens ofWor

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 19 nov 2006 21:49:40

In message of 19 Nov, "Andrew and Inge" <andrew.en.inge@skynet.be> wrote:

-----Original Message-----
From: WJhonson@aol.com [mailto:WJhonson@aol.com]
Sent: Sunday, 19 November 2006 8:02 PM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Elftred 'the Englishman' - ancestor of the Curwens
ofWorkington&de Lanca...


In a message dated 11/18/06 2:26:08 AM Pacific Standard Time,
andrew.en.inge@skynet.be writes:


3. In 1139 William I de Lancaster is said to have been Castellan of
Wiliam Fitz Duncan's castle of Egremont. William's Fitz Duncan's
mother was apparently Uchtreda, daughter of Gospatric, son of
Maldred, son of Crinan.


Can you state what source you are using for the above?
Thanks
Will Johnson


Hello Will

Yes, well, that's the problem. The internet is full of rubbish and I
am wondering if there are real sources for this.

I believe the second remark, about William Fitz Duncan's mother, may
even come from Wikipedia.

...so I am interested to know if these things are true, but I have a
problem proving it.

Keats-Rohan's Domesday Descendants has both a William filius Gilberti de
Lancastria on p. 539 and a William filius Duncan on p. 880. She says of
the latter that his parents were Duncan II, king of Scotland, and
Etheldreda daughter of Gospatrick earl of Dunbar.

If the Wm fitz Gilbert is your William I, there is no mention of any
castellancy of Egremont castle.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/

Gjest

Re: NORMAN INVASION OF England

Legg inn av Gjest » 20 nov 2006 00:26:18

Dear Nathaniel, Andrew and others,
I would think it would
be a mistake to consider this a Norse invasion just as it would be to consider
it a French one. While Duke William II of Normandy had procured some sort of
blessing to take the throne by his somewhat doddering cousin King Edward the
Confessor of England and Harold Godwinson may have agreed to support him in
order to preserve his life after being shipwrecked off Normandy, the Normans were
not the only force involved. Eustace II, Count of Boulogne led some men as to
Geoffrey du Perche and perhaps various vassals of William`s father-in-law
Count Baldwin V of Flanders ( including perhaps Robert de Comines, who however
may only have been responsible for the security of the new Queen-to- be Maud
and her ladies)
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

Nathaniel Taylor

Re: NORMAN INVASION OF England

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 20 nov 2006 01:59:10

In article <mailman.99.1163966410.22297.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>,
"Andrew and Inge" <andrew.en.inge@skynet.be> wrote:

As I understand it, laws written in England (by the most Norman of the
Normans therefore), referred to the invading people as the French. (There
were special laws about them, which attempted to discourage people from
attacking them.) I'd guess that Anglo-Norman poetry does the same.

Oh. I see what you have in mind: the textus Roffensis. The lead
sentence calls for regulation of peace and security between "English and
Normans" (inter Anglos et Normannos), but three subsequent capitula
refer to the non-English as 'Francigena'. See it in Stubbs:

http://books.google.com/books?vid=OCLC1 ... AJ&pg=PA83

I'm not sure what else there would be to affirm a more widespread
self-perception by the conquerors as 'French' by territorial or personal
origin, but I continue to doubt this would have been normative.

The way I see it, the context makes all the difference. If you were talking
about 1066, the obvious way to describe the ethnic make up of the two armies
was as English and French (despite our modern way of speaking) because they
were not simply Norman. If you were talking about politics in France, this
would just not do because the Normans, who had led this invasion, were
obviously a very distinct party within France.

I am surprised to hear that people spoke of Normandy as if it were not part
of France, and wonder if you could cite a source?

The Peterborough chronicle shows that the English definitely referred to
the invaders as 'French', and even forty years later they were able to
say (quoting Dorothy Whitelock's translation):

"1107. In this year at Christmas, King Henry was in Normandy and
brought it under his control and organized it, and after that in spring
came to this country and held his court at Easter at Windsor ... This
was just seven years after King Henry had received the kingship, and it
was the forty-first year after the French had been in control of this
country."

But at the same time they would write:

"1111. In this year ... in August he [King Henry] went overseas into
Normandy because of the disagreement that some people had with him on
the boundaries of France..."

So an Anglo-Saxon could speak of all the conqueror's people collectively
as 'French' while recognizing that 'France' was beyond 'Normandy'. From
Normandy itself a classic example is Orderic, writing in the 1130s (at
the southern Norman monastery of Saint-Evroul; he himself was half
English and half Norman by ancestry). He definitely uses 'France' and
'French' as exclusive of Normandy. There's an online excerpt somewhere
of the battle of Bremule (1119) which is a good illustration.

But these are all references from after 1066. Would Normandy have been
held to be part of 'France' in general use as a territorial word before
that date? I think not, simply because traditionally 'Francia' was a
much more restrictive territorial word, and people did not automatically
refer to all the lands held by a given king by the territorial word for
that king's traditional base. I'm not sure--perhaps someone can check
the usage of someone like Dudo.

Nat Taylor
http://www.nltaylor.net

Peter Stewart

Re: NORMAN INVASION OF England

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 20 nov 2006 04:46:02

"Nathaniel Taylor" <nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:nathanieltaylor-3AA28A.19590919112006@news.west.earthlink.net...
In article <mailman.99.1163966410.22297.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>,
"Andrew and Inge" <andrew.en.inge@skynet.be> wrote:

As I understand it, laws written in England (by the most Norman of the
Normans therefore), referred to the invading people as the French. (There
were special laws about them, which attempted to discourage people from
attacking them.) I'd guess that Anglo-Norman poetry does the same.

Oh. I see what you have in mind: the textus Roffensis. The lead
sentence calls for regulation of peace and security between "English and
Normans" (inter Anglos et Normannos), but three subsequent capitula
refer to the non-English as 'Francigena'. See it in Stubbs:

http://books.google.com/books?vid=OCLC1 ... AJ&pg=PA83

I'm not sure what else there would be to affirm a more widespread
self-perception by the conquerors as 'French' by territorial or personal
origin, but I continue to doubt this would have been normative.

The way I see it, the context makes all the difference. If you were
talking
about 1066, the obvious way to describe the ethnic make up of the two
armies
was as English and French (despite our modern way of speaking) because
they
were not simply Norman. If you were talking about politics in France,
this
would just not do because the Normans, who had led this invasion, were
obviously a very distinct party within France.

I am surprised to hear that people spoke of Normandy as if it were not
part
of France, and wonder if you could cite a source?

The Peterborough chronicle shows that the English definitely referred to
the invaders as 'French', and even forty years later they were able to
say (quoting Dorothy Whitelock's translation):

"1107. In this year at Christmas, King Henry was in Normandy and
brought it under his control and organized it, and after that in spring
came to this country and held his court at Easter at Windsor ... This
was just seven years after King Henry had received the kingship, and it
was the forty-first year after the French had been in control of this
country."

But at the same time they would write:

"1111. In this year ... in August he [King Henry] went overseas into
Normandy because of the disagreement that some people had with him on
the boundaries of France..."

So an Anglo-Saxon could speak of all the conqueror's people collectively
as 'French' while recognizing that 'France' was beyond 'Normandy'. From
Normandy itself a classic example is Orderic, writing in the 1130s (at
the southern Norman monastery of Saint-Evroul; he himself was half
English and half Norman by ancestry). He definitely uses 'France' and
'French' as exclusive of Normandy. There's an online excerpt somewhere
of the battle of Bremule (1119) which is a good illustration.

But these are all references from after 1066. Would Normandy have been
held to be part of 'France' in general use as a territorial word before
that date? I think not, simply because traditionally 'Francia' was a
much more restrictive territorial word, and people did not automatically
refer to all the lands held by a given king by the territorial word for
that king's traditional base. I'm not sure--perhaps someone can check
the usage of someone like Dudo.

Dudo described the Normans as "Northmanni, qui et Daci" (Normans also called
Dacians, i.e. Danes) urging Duke Richard I to complete the conquest of all
Francia, "vel quid dicent caeteri Dacigenae et Northguegigenae" (or what
will the other native Dacians and Norwegians say?). So a distinction was
made clear at that time between Normans who may have been born in Francia,
still sometimes called "Daci", and the inhabitants of Denmark called
"Dacigenae". Of course, Dudo was a Frank, and a rather silly one at that.

By 1066 all the Normans were born in Francia, that is in what was formerly
called Neustria as part of the Frankish kingdom, and were naturally
"Francigenae" to the English as a consequence - but surely they were not
thought to be the same people as the Franks, otherwise they would have won
England as a new realm for King Philippe I, not as a separate kingdom for
Duke William.

Peter Stewart

Nathaniel Taylor

Re: NORMAN INVASION OF England

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 20 nov 2006 05:11:43

In article <DD98h.68745$rP1.37147@news-server.bigpond.net.au>,
"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote:

Dudo described the Normans as "Northmanni, qui et Daci" (Normans also called
Dacians, i.e. Danes) urging Duke Richard I to complete the conquest of all
Francia, "vel quid dicent caeteri Dacigenae et Northguegigenae" (or what
will the other native Dacians and Norwegians say?). So a distinction was
made clear at that time between Normans who may have been born in Francia,
still sometimes called "Daci", and the inhabitants of Denmark called
"Dacigenae". Of course, Dudo was a Frank, and a rather silly one at that.

By 1066 all the Normans were born in Francia, that is in what was formerly
called Neustria as part of the Frankish kingdom, and were naturally
"Francigenae" to the English as a consequence - but surely they were not
thought to be the same people as the Franks, otherwise they would have won
England as a new realm for King Philippe I, not as a separate kingdom for
Duke William.

Thanks for this on Dudo--I had never noticed or didn't remember
"Dacigenae" etc. Despite Normandy being Neustria being part of the old
regnum (or regna) Francorum I am still surprised at the textus
Roffensis' use of 'Francigena', since both 'Francia' and 'Franci' were I
thought more restricted in meaning during the nadir of Capetian power.

Nat Taylor
http://www.nltaylor.net

Peter Stewart

Re: NORMAN INVASION OF England

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 20 nov 2006 06:40:44

"Nathaniel Taylor" <nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:nathanieltaylor-92CB5D.23113819112006@news.west.earthlink.net...
In article <DD98h.68745$rP1.37147@news-server.bigpond.net.au>,
"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote:

Dudo described the Normans as "Northmanni, qui et Daci" (Normans also
called
Dacians, i.e. Danes) urging Duke Richard I to complete the conquest of
all
Francia, "vel quid dicent caeteri Dacigenae et Northguegigenae" (or what
will the other native Dacians and Norwegians say?). So a distinction was
made clear at that time between Normans who may have been born in
Francia,
still sometimes called "Daci", and the inhabitants of Denmark called
"Dacigenae". Of course, Dudo was a Frank, and a rather silly one at that.

By 1066 all the Normans were born in Francia, that is in what was
formerly
called Neustria as part of the Frankish kingdom, and were naturally
"Francigenae" to the English as a consequence - but surely they were not
thought to be the same people as the Franks, otherwise they would have
won
England as a new realm for King Philippe I, not as a separate kingdom for
Duke William.

Thanks for this on Dudo--I had never noticed or didn't remember
"Dacigenae" etc. Despite Normandy being Neustria being part of the old
regnum (or regna) Francorum I am still surprised at the textus
Roffensis' use of 'Francigena', since both 'Francia' and 'Franci' were I
thought more restricted in meaning during the nadir of Capetian power.

Perhaps its largely a question of geography - a Norman in 1066 belonged to
an ascendant people whose home was now definitely in part of Neustria: the
world around this, and within at some levels, had continued clinging to
Frankish traditions. Many of the clergy at all levels were Franks, and their
influence was enormous over public and personal affairs that shaped a sense
of identity. In earlier generations, Cassandra Potts has written about the
tension between a fear of not fitting in to the Frankish world, at odds with
a fear of fitting in too well. This dilemma was clearly being resolved in
favour of fitting in.

From England, these people appeared to have settled into Christianity, and
Frankish ways, for a long time by 1066, while their ancestral cousins across
the North sea had managed a takeover before and were still producing rough
marauders with ambitions to invade. I imagine the author of the text had no
better word to delineate the Northmen from across the Channel than
"Francigenae". But this would have included Flemings, Aquitainians, even
Bretons, coming from all the regna over which the Frankish king claimed
authority, not only men of Viking ancestry from Neustria.

Peter Stewart

Gjest

re: Normans

Legg inn av Gjest » 20 nov 2006 11:00:03

Dear All,

Many thanks for your input - its not as clear cut as i thought! Hmm

regards

peter

Gjest

Re: Margaret Eylesford: VCH Essex extract

Legg inn av Gjest » 20 nov 2006 16:41:03

Jonathan Kirton asked
<Can you please explain how the two Roger Belers, father
<and son; the son having a daughter Margaret Belers; so that
<Ralph Cromwell, son of Ralph Cromwell, 1st. Lord Cromwell of
<Tattershall, was able to claim to be the heir of this Margaret?
<(quoting CPR Hen. VI, pages 290 - 294),
<and how they may be related to the family of Bellers of Kirby
<Bellers, co. Leicester

Wecome to the discussion, Jonathan.
May I suggest that you have a read of CPR Henry VI, Vol 2. pages cited,
accessible, thanks to the University of Iowa, at
_http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/_
(http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/)
as also of the Will of Margaret Belers/Swillington/Eylesford (PROB11/2B),
available for download at the National Archives. In her Will she describes
herself as "of Kirkeby Belers", and directs that she is to be buried there,
and also her IPM dated 6 Hen V (C138/32/26)- not downloadable, but
accessible at the National Archives at Kew in the Calendar of IPMs- or of
course, if you are feeling brave, in the fearsomely illegible original.

I think you may agree that these documents, taken together, establish that
Margaret (like her sister Amice) was a daughter of Sir Roger the elder of
Kirby Belers, and that the lines of her brothers Roger the younger and
had both died out by the time of Margaret's death. Margaret, like Amice, was
therefore I think daughter of the elder Sir Roger. There was also a third
daughter,
Thomasia, who owned a third part of her father's estate: see CPR RI vol 1,
p. 590.

The Sir James Belers to whom you refer does not feature in the documents
I have mentioned, so I suppose him to have descended from the father of Sir
Roger the elder, or from some other close relation. There are very numerous
references to James Belers in Cal. Pat.Rot.

Good hunting, Jonathan
MM

pierre_aronax@hotmail.com

Re: NORMAN INVASION OF England

Legg inn av pierre_aronax@hotmail.com » 20 nov 2006 19:21:49

Peter Stewart a écrit :

<...>
By 1066 all the Normans were born in Francia, that is in what was formerly
called Neustria as part of the Frankish kingdom, and were naturally
"Francigenae" to the English as a consequence - but surely they were not
thought to be the same people as the Franks, otherwise they would have won
England as a new realm for King Philippe I, not as a separate kingdom for
Duke William.

Note however that, for example, crusaders did no more gave the crown of
Jerusalem to the French kings, although many can be considered as
French.
This debate is voided by the confusion between what we can call today
French and what was called at the time Franks (admitting it was always
the same people in any context, which is obviously not the case). If
you mean by "French" something like "people being in some way
politically linked of the French king" (I can not find a better
definition), or "people speaking French", then Normans were certainly
French. If you mean by French "people living under the immediate
authority of the French king" (rather anachronic) or "people living in
the Isle-of-France" (rather tautologic), then the Normans were not
French... but few people would have been.

Pierre

Gjest

Re: Elftred 'the Englishman' - ancestor of the Curwens ofWor

Legg inn av Gjest » 21 nov 2006 03:30:02

In a message dated 11/19/2006 11:51:08 AM Pacific Standard Time,
andrew.en.inge@skynet.be writes:

I believe the second remark, about William Fitz Duncan's mother, may even
come from Wikipedia.


As far as wikipedia works, here it how you get a reference flushed out.
Go to the page, click the edit tab.
A new page will come up, you now find on that page the questionable
statement.
After the statement you add {{fact}}, then go to the bottom of the screen
and save the changes.

This item, enclosed by braces as I typed it, is a "template".
What this particular template does, is add a superscripted "[citation
needed]" to that part of the article. This is a flag to let other editors know to
come back and add a reference, footnote, source, etc to that particular spot.

You can look at the article for "Cyrk (Company)" to see an example of
footnotes and references.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Complete Peerage Addition: Iseult de Sulney, mother of S

Legg inn av Gjest » 21 nov 2006 21:31:03

In a message dated 11/19/06 10:18:27 AM Pacific Standard Time,
pajunkin@cox.net writes:

<< Although circumstantial evidence exists, I have yet to properly place
Elena
Daubeney who married Nicholas de Vipont, b. 1320, d. 1362. >>

Are these dates for "Nicholas de Vipont of Alston" whose daughter Margaret
married William Stapleton of Edenhall ?
Thanks
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Complete Peerage Addition: Iseult de Sulney, mother of S

Legg inn av Gjest » 21 nov 2006 21:48:06

In a message dated 11/20/06 8:31:52 PM Pacific Standard Time,
caramut@bigpond.com writes:

<< | |--3-William Champernoun b. Abt 1203, d. After 1230, s.p.m.
| +Eva Blancminster heiress >>

I question the basis for this "abt 1203" date. I've seen nothing so far to
pin down this person even within a decade, let alone a year.
Thanks
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Complete Peerage Addition: Iseult de Sulney, mother of S

Legg inn av Gjest » 21 nov 2006 21:52:02

In a message dated 11/20/06 8:31:52 PM Pacific Standard Time,
caramut@bigpond.com writes:

<< | |--3-William Champernoun b. Abt 1203, d. After 1230, s.p.m.
| +Eva Blancminster heiress
| |--4-Joan Champernoun heiress d. After 1286
| +Ralph Willington d. Between Apr 1255 and Jul 1260 >>
---------------------------------------------------
This connection is disproved by an IPM see below
----------------------------------------------------


Subj: Re: Early Frevilles of Tamworth & Cambridgeshire: a re-evaluation
Date: 8/7/06 2:43:55 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: suthen@redshift.com (news.redshift.com)
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com

I believe this marriage [Henry Willington to Margaret Freville] may be
confirmed in _The Parochial and Family
History of the Deanery of Trigg Minor in the County of Cornwall_ by Sir John
Maclean (London: Nichols & Son, 1873-79 (Three volumes) I: 384.
--------------------------
Subj: Re: Early Frevilles of Tamworth & Cambridgeshire: a re-evaluation
Date: 8/7/06 10:14:13 AM Pacific Daylight Time
From: royalancestry@msn.com (Douglas Richardson)
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com

Complete Peerage, 12 Pt. 2 (1959): 649, footnote d (sub Wilington) mentions
Sir Henry de Wilington (died 1322) in passing. No mention is made there of his
marriage to Margaret de Freville. So Henry and Margaret's marriage would be
a new addition to Complete Peerage.

Some years ago, Charles Fitch-Northen kindly sent me an account of the
Wilington family, in which he included a copy of an abstract of the marriage
settlement of Henry de Wilington and his wife, Margaret de Freville. As I recall,
Margaret's father, Sir Alexander de Freville, was specifically named in the
document. Unfortunately, my correspondence with Mr. Fitch-Northen is presently
buried someplace in my basement. Even so, I'm not sure that he wrote his source
for the document on the copy he sent me. However, I believe I have since
seen the marriage contract in old issues of Misc. Gen. et Heraldica, although I
warn you that I could well be mistaken as to the source. Whatever the
situation, I think you can find the marriage at least mentioned in Burke's Dormant and
Extinct Peerage in the account of the Wilington family. I believe the
marriage is also mentioned in Wallop, p. 843, where Margaret's surname is incorrectly
spelled Trevill. Further details on the Wilington family can be found in VCH
Gloucester 7 (1981): 29; 11 (1976): 285-286.

I find that Ronny Bodine mentioned Henry de Willington's marriage to Margaret
de Freville in a post here on the newsgroup back in 1996. For interest's
sake, I've copied Ronny's original post below. I suggest you contact Ronny
privately by e-mail and ask him his source for the marriage.

Beyond that, you can also find many references to this couple in Ancestry
World Tree at the following weblink below:

http://awt.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi ... e=Wilingto
n&mother=&stype=Exact&spouse=Freville&byear=&brange=&bplace=&myear=&mrange=&mp
lace=&dyear=&drange=&dplace=&language=en&op=search&db=&ti=0&ti.si=0&gl=&gss=mp
-awt&gst=&so=3
+ + + + + + + + + +
COPY OF RONNY BODINE'S EARLIER POST
,
From: rbodine...@aol.com
Subject: Re: RICHARD CHAMPERNOUN (1344-1419), OF MODBURY, DEVON
Date: 1996/12/05
newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval

Based upon our earlier exchange wherein it is established that Margaret, wife
of Robert Hill was the daughter of Richard Champernowne III, apparently by
his 2nd wife, Katherine Daubeney, I took a look at her ancestry and came across
something interesting---she too is descended from the Champernownes. I
cracked the books and assembled the following:

The Inq. of Walter de Treverbyn and Andrew de Solenny (CIPM, 4: no. 82),
dated to 1302, refers to the manor of Faweton, co. Cornwall and its division among
the heirs of Andrew de Solenny. The heirs included his aunt, Emma de
Sulenny. The IPM reads "From Emma the younger sister issued one Oliver de Campo
Arnulphi her son and heir, from him one Joan his daughter and heir, from her Ralph
her son and heir, and from him one John de Welynton, who now holds his
pourparty and is off full age and married.

Louise Staley

Re: Complete Peerage Addition: Iseult de Sulney, mother of S

Legg inn av Louise Staley » 21 nov 2006 21:54:02

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 11/20/06 8:31:52 PM Pacific Standard Time,
caramut@bigpond.com writes:

| |--3-William Champernoun b. Abt 1203, d. After 1230, s.p.m.
| +Eva Blancminster heiress

I question the basis for this "abt 1203" date. I've seen nothing so far to
pin down this person even within a decade, let alone a year.
Thanks
Will Johnson

I got it from a post by Ronny Bodine to SGM 19 Feb 1999

WILLIAM de CHAMBERNOUN. Born c1203. In 1224, when he had come of age, he
disputed the gift of his great-grandmother, Hawise de Redvers, of the
manor of Fleet, claiming the manor had earlier been given to his father
(Charters of the Redvers Family, p. 149). In April 1229 he was involved
in a dispute with the Abbot of Tewkesbury (Cal. Patent Rolls, 1225-32,
p. 288 and Curia Regis Rolls, 1227-1230, p. 514). He married Eva,
daughter of Rainald de Whitchurch, of Shrivenham, Berkshire. On 21 Aug
1249, Geoffrey de Grandi Monte was granted all land in Beseby, in the
soke of Wautham, and with the dower of Eva de Chambernun there if she
should die in this time (Cal. Patent Rolls, 1247-58, p. 46).
Children: Joan de Champernon (Campo Arnulphi), m. Sir Ralph de Willington.

cheers
Louise

Gjest

Re: Complete Peerage Addition: Iseult de Sulney, mother of S

Legg inn av Gjest » 21 nov 2006 22:05:02

I don't understand this. Ronny Bodine discussed this issue, pro and con, and
deduced that they had the wrong Oliver, and so Joan COULD be his daughter as
the IPM states.

This new posting does not discuss the evidence at all, it merely states that
exact opposite to what the IPM says. That doesn't help clear things up at all
:)

Will

Louise Staley

Re: Complete Peerage Addition: Iseult de Sulney, mother of S

Legg inn av Louise Staley » 21 nov 2006 22:33:01

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 11/20/06 8:31:52 PM Pacific Standard Time,
caramut@bigpond.com writes:

| |--3-William Champernoun b. Abt 1203, d. After 1230, s.p.m.
| +Eva Blancminster heiress
| |--4-Joan Champernoun heiress d. After 1286
| +Ralph Willington d. Between Apr 1255 and Jul 1260
---------------------------------------------------
This connection is disproved by an IPM see below
----------------------------------------------------


Again, my information comes from Ronny Bodine,

Post to SGM 19 Feb 1999
WILLIAM de CHAMBERNOUN. Born c1203. In 1224, when he had come of age, he
disputed the gift of his great-grandmother, Hawise de Redvers, of the
manor of Fleet, claiming the manor had earlier been given to his father
(Charters of the Redvers Family, p. 149). In April 1229 he was involved
in a dispute with the Abbot of Tewkesbury (Cal. Patent Rolls, 1225-32,
p. 288 and Curia Regis Rolls, 1227-1230, p. 514). He married Eva,
daughter of Rainald de Whitchurch, of Shrivenham, Berkshire. On 21 Aug
1249, Geoffrey de Grandi Monte was granted all land in Beseby, in the
soke of Wautham, and with the dower of Eva de Chambernun there if she
should die in this time (Cal. Patent Rolls, 1247-58, p. 46).
Children: Joan de Champernon (Campo Arnulphi), m. Sir Ralph de
Willington.

JOAN de CHAMPERNON (CAMPO ARNULPHI). Founded a chantry at Umberleigh in
the reign of Henry III to pray for the soul of her father William de
Campo Arnulphi, with the souls of her mother and Ralph de Willington,
her husband (Monasticon, p. 481). As Joan de Campo Arnulfi she presented
to St. Gwinear, co. Cornwall in Jan 1260/1 (Bronescombe, p. 172). As
Dame Joan de Champernon she presented to Huntshaw in Sept 1277
(Bronescombe, p. 145). As Joan de Campo Arnulfi, Lady of Beaford, she
presented to Beaford in July 1278 (Bronescombe, p. 113). As Dame Joan de
Chambernun she presented to High Bickington in March 1277/8 and July
1283 (Bronescombe, p. 144, 346). She was still living 1284-6 (CP, 12(2):
645). She married before 17 July 1238 to Sir Ralph de Willington.
Sheriff of Devonshire 1254-1255. He died between April 1255 and July
1260 (CP, 12(2): 645). As sole heiress of her father, the Champernoun
manors of St. Gwinear, Huntshaw, Beaford and High Bickington passed into
possession of the Willingtons.

I can only assume that over the tree years between the posts the other
evidence Ronny assembled (i.e. the chantry founding) made him believe
that the IPM below was in error, speaking as it did of 4 generations
before the then holder of the property.

Louise


COPY OF RONNY BODINE'S EARLIER POST
,
From: rbodine...@aol.com
Subject: Re: RICHARD CHAMPERNOUN (1344-1419), OF MODBURY, DEVON
Date: 1996/12/05
newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval

Based upon our earlier exchange wherein it is established that Margaret, wife
of Robert Hill was the daughter of Richard Champernowne III, apparently by
his 2nd wife, Katherine Daubeney, I took a look at her ancestry and came across
something interesting---she too is descended from the Champernownes. I
cracked the books and assembled the following:

The Inq. of Walter de Treverbyn and Andrew de Solenny (CIPM, 4: no. 82),
dated to 1302, refers to the manor of Faweton, co. Cornwall and its division among
the heirs of Andrew de Solenny. The heirs included his aunt, Emma de
Sulenny. The IPM reads "From Emma the younger sister issued one Oliver de Campo
Arnulphi her son and heir, from him one Joan his daughter and heir, from her Ralph
her son and heir, and from him one John de Welynton, who now holds his
pourparty and is off full age and married.

Gjest

Re: Complete Peerage Addition: Iseult de Sulney, mother of S

Legg inn av Gjest » 21 nov 2006 22:49:02

Thanks Louise for these notes.
Will Johnson

Tony Hoskins

Re: Was Mr. Adam Otley of Lynn the half-brother of Mrs. Agne

Legg inn av Tony Hoskins » 21 nov 2006 22:57:43

Thanks so much, john. That is very useful.
Tony

"John Brandon" <starbuck95@hotmail.com> 11/21/06 12:29PM
http://books.google.com/books?vid=0J95N ... eabouts%22




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Gjest

Re: Bogus, Fraudulent Coats Of Arms

Legg inn av Gjest » 23 nov 2006 00:01:03

Dear Josiah,
So kudzus are kazoos?
Sincerely,
James W
Cummings
Dixmont,
Maine USA

Gjest

Re: Bertha Widow of Boso Count of Arles

Legg inn av Gjest » 23 nov 2006 02:56:02

In a message dated 11/22/06 4:31:26 PM Pacific Standard Time,
p_m_stewart@msn.com writes:

<< (This chronology is complicated by the immensely long life of Berta's
daughter-in-law Ricardis, who was ruling Rouergue on behalf of her
granddaughter, another Berta, in the 1050s.) >>

Speaking of this, I have the following exchange in my notes
BEGIN QUOTE
Subj: Re: Charlemagne Line??
Date: 7/28/06 10:13:10 AM Pacific Daylight Time
From: farmerie@interfold.com (Todd A. Farmerie)
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com

Denise1270@aol.com wrote:
Hello all, trying to connect to Charlemagne...Can anyone tell me if this
line is accurate:
Suniario I de Brel - Richildis de Rouergue
Borrell II of Barcelona - Leodegarda de Toulouse

These toponyms given the wives are based on the speculation, primarily, of
Szabolcs de Vajay, based on the novel appearance of other names amoung the sons
and daughters of the Counts of Barcelona. There are alternatives equally
supported (or rather, equally unsupported).
END QUOTE

Is this Richildis here the same one that Peter mentioned as "daughter-in-law"
to Berta, widow of Boso Count of Arles ?
Thanks
Will Johnson

Peter Stewart

Re: Bertha Widow of Boso Count of Arles

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 23 nov 2006 03:35:02

<WJhonson@aol.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.252.1164246844.22297.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
In a message dated 11/22/06 4:31:26 PM Pacific Standard Time,
p_m_stewart@msn.com writes:

(This chronology is complicated by the immensely long life of Berta's
daughter-in-law Ricardis, who was ruling Rouergue on behalf of her
granddaughter, another Berta, in the 1050s.)

Speaking of this, I have the following exchange in my notes
BEGIN QUOTE
Subj: Re: Charlemagne Line??
Date: 7/28/06 10:13:10 AM Pacific Daylight Time
From: farmerie@interfold.com (Todd A. Farmerie)
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com

Denise1270@aol.com wrote:
Hello all, trying to connect to Charlemagne...Can anyone tell me if this
line is accurate:
Suniario I de Brel - Richildis de Rouergue
Borrell II of Barcelona - Leodegarda de Toulouse

These toponyms given the wives are based on the speculation, primarily, of
Szabolcs de Vajay, based on the novel appearance of other names amoung the
sons
and daughters of the Counts of Barcelona. There are alternatives equally
supported (or rather, equally unsupported).
END QUOTE

Is this Richildis here the same one that Peter mentioned as
"daughter-in-law"
to Berta, widow of Boso Count of Arles ?

Definitely not - for starters, one is Ricardis and the other is Richildis
(or Riquilda).

Countess Ricardis of Rouergue was apparently related, maybe through the
viscounts of Narbonne, to the family of Millau. However, her precise origin
is not known.

Countess Riquilda of Barcelona may have been a paternal aunt of Raimond II
of Rouergue, the husband of Ricardis - NB I'm not sure from memory if this
connection is proved or merely speculative.

Peter Stewart

gro

Re: NORMAN INVASION OF England

Legg inn av gro » 23 nov 2006 04:11:32

pierre_aronax@hotmail.com wrote:
Peter Stewart a écrit :

...
By 1066 all the Normans were born in Francia, that is in what was formerly
called Neustria as part of the Frankish kingdom, and were naturally
"Francigenae" to the English as a consequence - but surely they were not
thought to be the same people as the Franks, otherwise they would have won
England as a new realm for King Philippe I, not as a separate kingdom for
Duke William.

Note however that, for example, crusaders did no more gave the crown of
Jerusalem to the French kings, although many can be considered as
French.
This debate is voided by the confusion between what we can call today
French and what was called at the time Franks (admitting it was always
the same people in any context, which is obviously not the case). If
you mean by "French" something like "people being in some way
politically linked of the French king" (I can not find a better
definition), or "people speaking French", then Normans were certainly
French. If you mean by French "people living under the immediate
authority of the French king" (rather anachronic) or "people living in
the Isle-of-France" (rather tautologic), then the Normans were not
French... but few people would have been.

Pierre

"The land was ours before we were the land's."

Paul K Davis

RE: need lineage - James I to George I

Legg inn av Paul K Davis » 23 nov 2006 18:41:26

The intermediates between George I and James I were not fathers, but
mothers.

The mother of George I was Sophia of Hanover [1630 - 1714].

The mother of Sophia was Elizabeth Stuart [1596 - 1662].

Elizabeth was a daughter of James I.

The throne of England went this direction because Parliament adopted a law
barring Catholics from the succession.

-- PKD [Paul K Davis, pkd-gm@earthlink.net]


[Original Message]
From: <gwehrenb@bellsouth.net
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Date: 11/20/2006 1:01:48 PM
Subject: need lineage - James I to George I

Please explain intermediate fathers between George I and James I.
Thank you so much.


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Andrew and Inge

RE: NORMAN INVASION OF England

Legg inn av Andrew and Inge » 24 nov 2006 08:08:36

I agree with Tim that there is no such tendency in British writing, but
rather the opposite.

In standard English history books the invaders are almost never called the
French, but rather it is emphasized that they were Normans with Scandinavian
ancestors and a rascally history of causing problems for their French
overlords, which is in fact a simplification. So English pride might well be
involved, but perhaps in the opposite way than Denis suspects! : )

Another aspect of British pride is concerning the original British
population. As Tim points out, the normal presentation in England is that
the population is made up layers of invaders, which is how many English
people see themselves. This is also an oversimplification. Genetics seems to
indicate that a big part of the British population simply learnt new
languages with each invasion. In fact, I have heard it suggested that Welsh
was still widely spoken in pockets throughout England in 1066.

The discussion on this list was partly about what people said in 1066, and
soon thereafter. What I had contended is that contemporaries at least
sometimes referred to the Normans, or at least their regime in England
(which included a wide range of people from the Western Frankish empire), as
French.

Regards
Andrew

-----Original Message-----
From: Tim Powys-Lybbe [mailto:tim@powys.org]
Sent: Thursday, 23 November 2006 6:50 PM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: NORMAN INVASION OF England


In message of 23 Nov, Denis Beauregard
<denis.b-at-francogene.com@fr.invalid> wrote:

I think the Englishmen are too proud and just can't accept to be
conquered by a small Viking tribe and thus their historians have
renamed the Norman to the French when describing this invasion. It
would be interesting to make a list of the invaders and see from where
they came.

As a matter of social history, Burke in his various compilations showed
how many people loved to have their account starting with some
affirmation that their forbears came with the Conqueror. My
interpretation of this is that these people loved to identify themselves
with the conquering horde and thus with the ruling class, to which they
thought they should belong for ever more. I have not detected much
interest in the nationality of the conquerors: in many ways they were
just another of a long line of marauding invaders, the big difference
was that they were the last.

Sam Sloan

Re: The Mother of Joan of England, Wife of Llywelyn Fawr

Legg inn av Sam Sloan » 25 nov 2006 21:23:09

I am just comiing back after a long period away from this group.

How was this issue finally decided?

Sam Sloan

Gjest

Re: Reliability of Stirnet site?

Legg inn av Gjest » 26 nov 2006 22:07:03

In a message dated 11/26/2006 12:36:40 PM Pacific Standard Time,
dave@atenagymclub.com.ua writes:

Specifically (but perhaps beyond the scope of this list), I am
interested in the Edward Sheldon link to the Constable line as the move
to Agnes Gascoigne and Alexander de Mowbray and then back to Anna
Yaroslavna. Can this line be trusted?


The stirnet site, lists, at the bottom, and sometimes also embedded in the
details, what his sources are. So, like most secondary (teritiary?) sites,
its a guideline to what other sources say. You have to review those underlying
sources to see if they list their own sources, and then continue down the
chain until you hit the bottom.
Will Johnson

Dina Grozev

RE: Roman Mystery in The Netherlands

Legg inn av Dina Grozev » 27 nov 2006 01:01:02

That's so interesting. It reminds me a lot of the speculation about the Newport Tower, (http://www.neara.org/CARLSON/newporttower.htm) but less fanciful and more historical. These little odds and ends are just as interesting as the familial connections.

Dina



_______________________________________________
No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.
Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com

taf

Re: The Last of the Neanderthal

Legg inn av taf » 27 nov 2006 04:27:57

[sorry for reviving a thread perhaps better left dead, but I kept
meaning to make a medieval correction here]

Jwc1870@aol.com wrote:

For some time now I`ve been convinvced that the
Neanderthal peoples have interbred with the Cro Magnons on a large scale. I
further suggess that Grendel and his mother of the Beowulf legend were in fact
Neanderthal and Ibn Khaldun who explored the Scandanavian area around 922 also
encountered some pure Neanderthals (See the book / film " The Thirteenth Warrior"
by Michael Crichton or better Ibn Khaldun`s own account.

You have fallen for Crichton's trick of art. The envoy Ibn Fadlan (not
Ibn Khaldun) was sent to a Bulgar settlement near the Volga, and took
advantage of the proximity to visit a nearby Rus trading settlement,
describing what he saw there. He then returned to Bagdad. He never
went to Scandinavia.

While using a retelling of Ibn Fadlan's account as the jumping-off
point for his book "Eaters of the Dead" (sometimes sold as "The
Thirteenth Warrior", the movie having used that title), at its heart
the book is a retelling of a different account of Scandinavian
adventurers, Beowulf. Thus, he introduces his Beowulf character into
Ibn Fadlan's account of the Volga Rus, and then jumps to the Beowulf
tale, taking Ibn Fadlan along as a narrator offering an alien voice to
tell the otherwise familiar story. This is all fictional manipulation
- everything after the viking funeral. The whole Neanderthal bit was
his attempt to explain the monster Grendel, and was an invention of
Crichton.

(As an off topic side note, it is clear fromt he genetic evidence that
Neanderthals did not interbreed with Cro Magnons "on a large scale".
There is DNA evidence that some have suggested is best explained by
small-scall intermixing but the argument is a bit weak. Still,
large-scale can be excluded based on the existing population genetics.)

taf

John P. Ravilious

Re: SP Addition: ___ de Menteith, wife of Sir Alexander de A

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 27 nov 2006 04:42:54

Sunday, 26 November, 2006



Hello All,

Following is the promised AT [Part I] for Mary de Abernethy.
This would also be the same for her full sister Margaret, wife of
John Stewart, Earl of Angus.

Cheers,

John *




1 Mary de Abernethy.
died bef 19 Nov 1355.[1]

co-heiress of Abernethy[1]

Genealogics #I00116895[2]

her purparty included the baronies of Ballinbreich, co. Fife and
Cairney, co. Forfar (charters for Ballinbreich and Cairney given
to Sir Andrew de Leslie by King Robert I - Leslie p. 18[3])

"..indenture between Andrew de Leslie, son and heir of Norman de
Leslie, Chevalier, with the consent of Mary, his wife, as heiress
of the deceased Sir Alexander Abernethy, on the one part, and Sir
William Lindsay, Rector of Ayr, and Chamberlain of Scotland from
1312 to 1322, on the other part, whereby the said Sir Andrew
obliges himself to infeft Sir William Lindsay in twenty-four
merks land in the tenement of Cairney, to be held of the
granter [sic], dated 25th December 1316." [Leslie pp. 18-19[3],
cites Lindsay, vol. i p. 61[4], and Douglas's Peerage,
vol.ii p. 424[5] ]

dispensation from Pope John XXII, dated at Avignon, 4 Kal. Dec. [28
Nov.] 1324:
' To David de Lindesay and Mary daughter of Alexander de Abirnethine,
of the diocese of Glasgow. Dispensation to intermarry, they being
related in the fourth degree, and a former husband of Mary being
related to David in the same degree.' [CPL II:241[6]]

she m. lstly Sir Andrew Leslie,
2ndly David Lindsay

cf. SP III:10, sub _Lindsay, Earl of Crawford_[1]
SP VII:269, sub _Leslie, Earl of Rothes_[1]

aft 28 Nov 1324 Mary married Sir David de Lindsay.[6],[1]


2 Sir Alexander de Abernethy.
Born aft 1271.[7]
died ca 1316.

Lord of Abernethy

Genealogics #I00006284[2]

succeeded his father as a minor, 1292 (Alexander de Menteith appointed
guardian of the lands of Alexander de Abernethy by King John (Baliol),
1292 [Red Book of Menteith I:79[7], citing Acts of Parliaments of
Scotland i:447]

record of his heraldic seal:
' Alexander de Abernethi.
15,763. [A.D. 1292.] Sulph. cast from a good impression. 15/16 in.
[xlvii. 1090.]
An eagle displayed, charged on the breast with a shield of arms:
a lion rampant, debruised by a ribbon.
S : Alexandri : de : Abernethi .
Beaded borders. ' [Cat. Seals, p. 274, no. 15,763[9], cites
Laing's Catal., No. 80. ]

Warden of Scotland between Forth and the Mounth, Michaelmas 1293
(Barrow p. 226)[10]

'Alifaundre de Abrenethy', swore allegiance to King Edward I at
Berwick, 1296 [Ragman Roll[11] ]

' Alexander de abirnithin dominus de eadem ' , granted charter to
Coupar priory (dated ca. 1297-1304, witnessed by his uncle Malcolm
de Ergadia, John de Moravia and others) granting his land of
Kincrech in the barony of Lour, Inverarity parish (Angus) but
excluding his park of Inverarichte (Inverarity)
[Coupar I:143-5, No. LXV[12]]

' Alexandro de Abernethy [knight]', witness to charter of Sir John
de Kinross granting to his cousin Sir Walter de Lindsay of Thuriston
his lands of Littleperth, and others, dated at Perth, 1300
[Coupar I:149-150, No. LXVII[12]]

' sir Alisaundre de Habernithyn ', in opposition to King Edward
together with John Comyn, Earl of Buchan, John de Soules, Sir Simon
Fraser and Sir Herbert de Morham, Sept 1301 [letter of the keeper
of Lochmaben Castle to Edward I of England - Stevenson II:431[13],
cites original letter, Public Record Office]

came into the peace of King Edward of England, Oct 1303 or before
[order of King Edward I to John de Bretagne, dated at Westminster
16 Oct 1305, to repay the expenses of ' our dear and faithful
Alexander de Abernethy ' - "dilectus et fidelis noster Alexander
de Abernythy"] incurred since 29 Oct 1303 [Stevenson II:490[13],
cites Close Rolls 33 Edw. I, no. 4]

' monsieur Alexander d'Abernythy ', dispatched by Edward, Prince of
Wales ' with forty men-at-arms, into the parts of Strathearn and
Menteith, and towards Drypp', to complete the guard which is
appointed there in those parts ', before 2 Mar 1303/4 [letter of
King Edward I to the Prince of Wales, dated at Inverkeithing, 2
Mar 1303/4 - Stevenson II:166-7, no. 631[13], cites original in PRO]

C 47/22/7/7
Writ of privy seal from Edward I in St Andrews to Alexander de
Abernithi, guardian of Scotland between the mountains and the
sea, to release the lands of Alexander de Balliol of Cavers,
1304 Mar 21 [National Archives, Records created, acquired, and
inherited by Chancery, and also of the Wardrobe, Royal Household,
Exchequer and various commissions[14] ]

order of King Edward I to John de Bretagne, dated at Westminster
16 Oct 1305, to repay the expenses of ' our dear and faithful
Alexander de Abernethy ' ["dilectus et fidelis noster Alexander
de Abernythy"] incurred since 29 Oct 1303 [Stevenson II:490[13],
cites Close Rolls 33 Edw. I, no. 4]

supporter of King Edward I of England in his claims over Scotland:
petitioner for the lands of William Murray, Alan Murray and of
Robert the Bruce (lands north of the Forth) declared forfeit by
Edward I, 1306 [Barrow, p. 447[10]]

sought pardon for Alan de Clavering, granted by King Edward I at
Wolvesey, 27 April 1306:
' Pardon, at the instance of Patrick de Dunbar, earl of March,
Ingram de Umframvill, John de Moubray and Alexander de Abernithi,
to Alan de Clavering, in consideration of the service of Robert
son of Roger, for the death of Roger de Clavering his brother.
By p.s. ' [CPR 34 Edw. I, mem. 26, p. 430[15]]

' Dominis Alexandro de Abirnethyn ', witness (together with Sir
John de Inchmartin, Sir Thomas de Hay and others) to a charter
of Sir Gilbert de Hay of Errol of the advowson of the church of
Fossoway to Coupar priory, dated 1305x1309 [Coupar I:184-5,
No. LXXXV[12]]

' [Lord] alexandro de Abirnethy [knight]', witness (together
with David, Earl of Athol, Sir William de Montfichet, Roger de
Mortimer and others) to a charter of Michael de Miggil granting
free passage through his lands to Coupar priory,
dated 1306x1317 - but most likely between 1307 and 1312
[Coupar I:190-191, No. LXXXVIII[12]]

" 1310, 28 Mar. To John de Crumbwell, constable of the Tower
of London. Order to release Alexander, son of Alexander de Balliolo,
lord of Caures, from prison there, as his father , and Alexander
Abernithy, Philip de Lyndeseye and John de Lyndeseye have mainperned
before the King under penalty of their lives and limbs, lands,
etc., that he will be faithful to the King for his lifetime, as
contained in their letters patent in the King's wardrobe. "
[Linzee pp. 294-5, cites Close Rolls][16]

held the town of Dundee for King Edward II of England,
23 June 1311 - 31 July 1312:
' 283. Sir Alexander de Abernethy a prest by the hands of the
collectors of customs at Newcastle-on-Tyne, to account of his
fee for keeping the town of Dundee between the vigil of St. John
Baptist (23rd June) 1311, and the vigil of St. Peter ad vincula
5th year (31st July) following, 186l. [Bain III:56[17], cites
fol. 51b., Exchequer, Q. R. Miscellanea (Wardrobe), No. 20/4]

' lady Margaret de Abrenythy ', evidently his wife, lady of the
court of Isabella of France, Queen of England, 1311/12[18]

he was on an embassy to the Pope for King Edward II, accredited by
letter dated 6 August 1312:
' 284. The K. accredits to the Pope his (the Pope's) nephew Bertrand
de Salviaco count of Campania, Sir Alexander de Abernythy knight,
and Master Walter de Maydenstane, on some arduous matters specially
touching himself and his honour, which they will expound to his
Holiness viva voce. Dover. ' [Bain III:56[17], cites French
and Roman Roll, 4-10 Edw. II. m. 19., in Foedera II:175]

record of a grant to Sir John de Wemyss, confirmed in a charter
of King Robert III, dated 16 Oct 1392:
No. 53 - confirmation to John de Weemes, knight, of certain lands;
' and also the lands of Kyncaldrum, whilks Alexander de Abernethy
conveyed to John de Wemys, Knight, grandfather of the said
John;... ' [Robertson's Index, p. 158, no. 53[19]; text in
Fraser, Wemyss II:29, no. 21[20]]

Sir Alexander married NN de Menteith.

3 NN de Menteith.

daughter of Alexander, Earl of Menteith (conjectured by John
Ravilious, 5 Dec 2003[21], based in part on the dispensation for
her daughter Margaret's marriage to John Stewart (related in the 4th
degree - Papal Letters II:283[6])[21])

this identification stated by Andrew B. W. MacEwen as proved,
26 Nov 2006 [22], [23]]

most likely the same individual as ' lady Margaret de Abrenythy ',
lady of the court of Isabella of France, Queen of England, 1311/12[18]


4 Sir Hugh de Abernethy.
died bef 1293 in Douglas castle (d. a prisoner).[1]

Lord of Abernethy

an indenture is dated Palm Sunday 1259, between Sir William de
Douglas and Sir Hugh de Abernethy for the marriage of his son Hugh
de Douglas and Sir Hugh's sister Marjory [SP VII:399[1]]

'Hugh de Abyrnethine', received grant of £ 20 lands in Aberfoyle,
Menteith from Isabella, (deprived) countess of Menteith, before
Jan 1261/2 [Red Book of Menteith I:37, II:213, citing grant in
Douglas charter chest[7] ]

' Hugone de Abbirnythyn ', witness (together with Alexander Comyn,
earl of Buchan and justiciar of Scotia, Patrick, earl of Dunbar,
Aymer de Maxwell the chamberlain, and Walter the steward) to a
charter of King Alexander III granting a yearly market 'at the
feast of St. John the Baptist, lasting for fifteen following days'
to the Burgh of Ayr, dated at Traquair, 12 Dec 1261
[Chart. Ayr pp. 18-19, No. 11[24]]

' Hugone de Abrnicthyn ', witness to confirmation charter of King
Alexander III to Coldstream priory [together with Patrick, Earl of
Dunbar and John Comyn], dated at Roxburgh, 3 May 1263 [Coldstream
chartulary, pp. 47-8, no. III[25]]

' Hugone de Abirnithin', witness [together with William Comyn of
Kilbride] to a charter of King Alexander III to the monks of
Melrose, 21 Jul 1264 [Innes, Melrose II:273[26]; also Dickinson,
p. 115[27]]

had a grant of the barony of Lour, including Kincrech, in Inverarity
parish, Angus 1265 [Coupar I:144, note to No. LXV[12]]

' Hugh de Abrinithyn ', witness to a royal confirmation by
Alexander III, King of Scots of a grant by 'Reginald Prath knight
made to William de Swyneburn for his homage and service of the lands
of Haluchton', dated at Jeddewrth, 1st May in the 18th year of his
reign [1 May 1267] -A2A, Northumberland Record Office: Swinburne
(Capheaton) estate records [ZSW/1 - ZSW/59], ZSW/1/22[28]

charter of Alexander III, confirming grant by Patrick, earl of Dunbar
of his manor and appurtenances of Laynall, witnessed by Hugh de
Berkeley, justiciar of Lothian, Hugh de Abernethy, Alexander de
Baliol of Cavers, Alexander de Vaux, and others
[" Testibus Hugone de Berkeley justiciario Llaudonie. Hugone
de Habirnyth. Alexandro de Balliolo de Caueres...."],
dated 21 June 1270 [Coldstream chartulary, pp. 40-41, no. 56[25]]

3rd husband of Mary of Argyll:
' Sir Hugh got a dispensation for his marriage with her in
April 1281. The date at which he actually married her cannot have
been later than 1275, as it is stated in the dispensation that he
had 'several' sons by her. ' [SP VII:400-1[1]]

~ dispensation for 'Hugonis de Abirnithin....quod quarto
consanguinitatis gradu delicte in Christo filie nobili mulieri
Marie usori sui...' dated 7 April 1281, by Pope Martin IV [Vetera
Monumenta p. 125, No. CCLXXVII[29]]

Duncan, Earl of Fife
' was murdered at Petpollock on 25 September 1288 by Sir Patrick
Abernethy and Sir Walter Percy. Sir Andrew Moray of Bothwell
seized Percy and Sir Hugh Abernethy, the real instigator. Percy
was executed, and Sir Hugh Abernethy condemned to perpetual
imprisonment in the castle of Douglas, where he died. Sir
Patrick Abernethy made his escape to France, and died there. '
[SP IV:11[1], cites Hist. Doc. Scot., i. 69; Rotuli Scot., i. 2.]

" Hugo de Abernyth ' ", wrote a letter to King Edward I of England
seeking his intercession with the Pope (possibly sent from prison),
ca. 1288 [Stevenson I:69, no. XLIX[13]]
__________________

' domini Hugonis patris nostri ', charter of his son Sir Alexander
de Abernethy (dated ca. 1297-1304) granting his land of Kincreche
in the barony of Lur to Coupar priory [Coupar I:143-5, No. LXV[12]]

~ correction of his parentage (grandson, not son of Laurence de
Abernethy) by Andrew B. W. MacEwen[30]

ca 1271 Sir Hugh married Mary mac Dubhgaill.


5 Mary mac Dubhgaill. Mary died bef Jan 1304.[31],[1]

Queen of the Isle of Man

dispensation for 'Hugonis de Abirnithin....quod quarto consanguinitatis
gradu delicte in Christo filie nobili mulieri Marie usori sui...'
dated 7 April 1281, by Pope Martin IV [Vetera Monumenta p. 125, No.
CCLXXVII[29]]

' Lady Marie, Queen of Man and Countess Dowager of Strathearn ',
performed homage to King Edward I of England, 24 Jan 1290/1291
[ 'Man, Marie la Reyne de (del counte de Perth).'[10]; Cowan p.
75[32]]

' Hugh de Abernethy died before 3d September 1296, as, on that date,
we find that King Edward I. of England ordered the sheriff of Forfar
to repone Maria, quae fuit uxor Hugonis de Abernethy, in her lands. '
[Leslie p. 37, Note A[3]]

cf. Chart. Inchaffray, lxiv[31]
SP VIII:246[1]

she m. lstly Magnus of Man,
2ndly Malise, Earl of Strathearn,
3rdly Sir Hugh Abernethy,
4th William FitzWarin[1]


6 Alexander de Menteith.
died ca 1306.[10]
Occupation: Earl of Menteith.

Earl of Menteith

Genealogics #I00177652[2]

'Alexander ', together with his father and brother, entered into a
bond with Robert de Brus, Walter, earl of Menteith and others at
Turnberry, 20 Sept 1286 'to adhere to the party of Richard de Burgh,
earl of Ulster and Sir Thomas de Clare ' [Red Book of Menteith
II: 219-220, citing Historical Docs. Scotland, i:22[7] ]

' Alisaundre Monetehe ', one of the barons of Scotland attending
the Parliament at Brigham who confirmed the Treaty of Salisbury
with England, 14 Mar 1289/90 [Stevenson I:129-130, No. XCII[13]]

' Meneteth (Meinteth), Dominus Alexander filius comitis de.' - swore
allegiance to King Edward I at Berwick, together with his father,
1291 [Ragman Roll[11] ]

appointed guardian of the lands of Alexander de Abernethy by King
John (Baliol), 1292 [Red Book of Menteith I:79[7] ]

' Alexandro de Menetheht ', witness (together with his brother John)
to charter of his father, ' Walterus Sen[escalli], comes de Mentheht
',
which granted the church of Kylmachornat in Knapdale to the monastery
of Kilwinning, ca. 1290 [Fraser, Red Book of Menteith II:220-221, no.
13]

evidently the Earl of Menteith who resisted John de Warenne, earl of
Surrey at Dunbar, April 1296 [Barrow p. 101[10]; Cowan p. 95[32] ]

' Meneteth, comes de, Dominus Alexander (Alifandre comte de Meneteth).
'
- swore allegiance to King Edward I at Berwick, 28 August 1296
[Ragman Roll[11] ]

Note: his father d. in 1295; his seal [ ' S' Walteri Senescalli comit'
de Menetet '] used, apparently by his son Alexander, at Berwick, 28
August 1296 [MacAndrew, p. 706[33] ]

record of his heraldic seal, from the Berwick document:
' STEWART or MENTEITH, Alexander, sixth Earl of Menteith, succeeded
c. 1295, died before 1306, son of Walter, fifth Earl.
A shield of arms: Three bars wavy surmounted of a fess chequy with
a label of five points in chief. The shield supported on the breast
of an eagle displayed. Legend (caps.):
S' ALEXANDRI COMITIS DE MENETETH.
Diam. 1 1/16 in. Record Off. detached seal 30, Homage, A.D. 1296,
Bain, ii. pl. ii. fig. 10. Laing, i. 785. B.M. 16927-8 [A.D. 1296].
indistinct. Red Book of Menteith, ii. 461, fig. 2. '
[Stevenson, II:601[34]]

Alexander married Matilda.


7 Matilda.

Genealogics #I00177652[2]


[ to be continued: see Part II ]


John P. Ravilious wrote:
Sunday, 26 November, 2006


Hello All,

In December 2003, I had conjectured that the wife of Sir
Alexander de Abernethy (d. ca. 1316) was an otherwise unidentified
daughter of Alexander, Earl of Menteith (d. ca. 1306) [1].
This was based largely on the evidence of various 14th
century dispensations.

In speaking with Andrew B. W. MacEwen this evening, he has
advised me that he has found conclusive evidence that the lady in
question was in fact a daughter of Earl Alexander of Menteith. He
further stated that her identification as ' Lady Margaret de
Abrenythy ', a lady of the court of Queen Isabella of England in
1311/1312 [2], is important, and most likely correct.

The evidence Andrew mentioned will be cited in a forthcoming
article, and cannot be divulged at this time for that reason.
However, he did extend permission to mention the existence of this
evidence to the newsgroup so that this identification can be noted
as correct.

A brief ahnentafel of the ancestry of Mary de Abernethy, one of
the daughters and coheirs of Sir Alexander, will be provided in a
followup post.

Cheers,

John *





NOTES:

[1] J. Ravilious, <The Ancestry of Mary Abernethy: a Menteith
Connection ?>, SGM, 5 December 2003:


[2] See J. Ravilious, <SP Addition: Margaret (__), wife of Sir
Alexander de Abernethy>, SGM, 24 August 2006.


* John P. Ravilious

John P. Ravilious

Re: SP Addition: ___ de Menteith, wife of Sir Alexander de A

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 27 nov 2006 04:49:17

Sunday, 26 November, 2006


Hello All,

Following is Part II of the ahnentafel for Mary de Abernethy.

Cheers,

John


8 Patrick de Abernethy.
died bef 1244 in d.v.p.[30]

eldest son (d.v.p.)

' Patricio de Abbirnithin ' , witness (together with William fitz
Alan the Steward, Justiciar of Scotland, his father Laurence de
Abernethy, Patrick son of Earl Patrick (of Dunbar), David de
Lindsay, and others) to a charter on behalf of Balemerino priory,
dated at Selkirk, 10 Feb 1231/2 [Misc. Scot. Hist. Soc. VIII:8-9,
no. II[35]]

re: Laurence de Abernethy, Leslie wrote:
' He gave the Canons of the priory of St. Andrews ten shillings
yearly, payable out of Ballinbreich, with the consent of Sir Patrick
Abernethy, his son and heir, about 1230. Sir Patrick's son, Hugh de
Abernethy, possessed great influence previous to and during the reign
of Alexander III., about 1260.' [Leslie p. 37, Note A[3]]

his identification by Andrew B. W. MacEwen[30]

Patrick married NN.


10 Ewen mac Dubhgaill.
died aft 1268.[36]
Occupation: king of the Isles.

lord of Lorn

sailed to Hakon, king of Norway in 1248, together with Dougal mac
Ruairi, where
' they both endeavoured after this, that the king should give them
the title of king over the northern part of the Hebrides.'

Ewen received the title of 'king of the isles' from King Hakon
ordered by King Hakon in 1249 to
' go west as quickly as possible, and be [the ruler] over the
islands,
until another plan be made for them ' following the death of
Harald, king of Man in Sept. 1248 [McDonald p. 98-99, cites
ES ii, pp. 554-5[36]]

vassal of the King of Norway, and of Scotland;
opted for Scotland as overlord (over Norway), following
the Battle of Largs, 1263[36]

'Eugenius de Ergadia', witness to a charter of his daughter and
son in law Earl Malise to Inchaffray, dated at Crieff, 1268
[Chart. Inchaffray, lxiv[31]]

possibly the same as the charter of ' Malisius comes de Strathyrn ',
who granted 'sex marcis de Abircarnich' to Inchaffray, 1258 x 1271
[witnessed by Robert, bishop of Dunblane (succeeded 1258/9), 'domino
Eugenio de Argadia . domino M. auunculo nostro. ' and others]
- Reg. Inchaffray pp. 32-33, no. 35[37]]

' Eogan moir mic Donchadh mic Dubhgaill micSomairli ' [ Ewen mor son
of Duncan son of Dougall son of Somerled ] - Genealach Mac Dubhgaill,
from the Senchus Fer nAlban[38]


12 Walter le Steward.
died bef 28 Apr 1296, he was 77.[10],[39],[1]
Born in 1219.[32]
Buried in Inchmahome priory, Menteith.[40]
Occupation: Earl of Menteith.

Earl of Menteith de jure uxoris
3rd son

' Walter le Senescallus ', one of the Regents of Scotland and
guardians of Alexander III, appointed 20 September 1255[41]

'Walterus Senescallus comes de Menethe ', together with his sons
Alexander and John, entered into a bond with Robert de Brus, Walter,
earl of Menteith and others at Turnberry, 20 Sept 1286 'to adhere
to the party of Richard de Burgh, earl of Ulster and Sir Thomas de
Clare ' [Red Book of Menteith II: 219-220, citing Historical Docs.
Scotland, i:22[7] ]

' Gauter de Menetehe ', one of the Earls of Scotland attending the
Parliament at Brigham, which confirmed the Treaty of Salisbury with
England, 14 Mar 1289/90 [Stevenson I:129-130, No. XCII[13]]

' Walterus Sen[escalli], comes de Mentheht ', granted the church of
Kylmachornat in Knapdale to the monastery of Kilwinning, for the
salvation of his own soul and of his late wife Mary, countess of
Menteith [ "pro salute anime mee et domine Marie quondam sponse
mee, comitisse de Menetheht" ] , witnessed by Sir John Stewart,
Sir John de Soulis, Sir Andrew Kras', Sir Ingram de H'nkawille
[Umfraville ?], Sir Reginald de Crawford, and his sons Alexander
and John, ca. 1290 - Fraser, Red Book of Menteith II:220-221, no.
13[7]

supporter of Bruce the Competitor for the Scots crown, 1291
(Barrow p. 388)[10]:
'Walter, earl of Menteith', one of the auditors for the claim of Bruce
at Berwick, 2 June 1292 [Crawfurd p. 20[42] ]

' Meneteth (Meinteth), comes de, Walterus, (Wautier comte de
Meinteth). ' - swore allegiance to King Edward I at Berwick,
1291 [Ragman Roll[11] ]

' Terra Comitis de Menteth de Knapedal ', his lands in Knapdale
included
in the Sheriffdom of Lorne under the ordinance of 1293
[Campbell p. 45[43]]

d. in 1295; his seal [ ' S' Walteri Senescalli comit' de Menetet ']
used
apparently by his son at Berwick, 28 August 1296 [MacAndrew, p.
706[33] ]

Walter married Mary of Menteith.


13 Mary of Menteith.
died bef 1286.[7]
Occupation: Countess of Menteith.

younger daughter[1]

she predeceased her husband, before 1290 (possibly before 1286):
' Walterus Sen[escalli], comes de Mentheht ', granted the church of
Kylmachornat in Knapdale to the monastery of Kilwinning, for the
salvation of his own soul and of his late wife Mary, countess of
Menteith [ "pro salute anime mee et domine Marie quondam sponse mee,
comitisse de Menetheht" ] , ca. 1290 - Fraser,
Red Book of Menteith II:220-221, no. 13


16 Laurence de Abernethy. Laurence died ca 1244.[44]

lord of Abernethy

Genealogics #I00404067[2]

' Laurencius filius Orm de Abirnythyn', granted a charter (witnessed
by Archibald, abbot of Dunfermline, Earl Duncan of Fife, Earl Gilbert
of Strathearn, William Comyn and others) to the monks of Arbroath of
the advowson of the church of Abernethy, with appurtenances [confirmed
by King William], 1198 or before * [Jamieson, p. 364[45],
from Regist. Aberbroth. I. Fol. 49, b. 50,
a. Macfarl. MS. I. p. 121, -123.]

{* Archibald was abbot of Dunfermline, 1178-1198. This charter was
witnessed during that same period.}

'Laurencio de Abernithie' witness to charter of Malcolm, son of Earl
Duncan of Fife, to the nuns of North Berwick ante 1199 [Misc. Scot.
His. Soc. IV:308-9[46]]

'Laurencius de Abernethe', witness to agreement between Maelmure, earl
of Menteith and his brother and successor Maelmure Og, 6 Dec 1213
[Red Book of Menteith II:214, citing inspeximus of Henry III of
England dated 20 Sept 1261[7] ]


' laurentio de Abbirnithin' , witness (together with Walter fitz Alan
the Steward, Justiciar of Scotland, Patrick son of Earl Patrick
(of Dunbar), David de Lindsay, his son Patrick de Abernethy, and
others) to a charter on behalf of Balemerino priory, dated at
Selkirk, 10 Feb 1231/2 [Misc. Scot. Hist. Soc. VIII:8-9, no. II[35]]

' On 23 June 1233 King Alexander II confirmed to [Laurence de
Abernethy] that land in the royal castle of Roxburgh quitclaimed
by the King's nephew William, son of the Earl (of Dunbar).'
[SP VII:398[1], cites Adv. Lib. MS. 35.4.16, p. 175]

'Laurentio de Abbirnithin', witness to confirmation by charter of
King Alexander II of an exchange of lands by Malcolm, thane of
Callendar (also witnessed by William fitz Alan the Steward,
Justiciar of Scotland, Walter Comyn, Henry de Stirling son of
the Earl, and others) at Scone, 30 June 1233 [Fraser I:122-3, No.
3[47]]

granted land to the monks of Balmerinach, on or after 11 Feb. 1233/4:
' "Laurentius de Abernethie, son of Orm", says Keith, "gave Corbie,
called also Birkhil, from a park of birks [birches] surrounding the
house, to this monastery [of Balmerinach;] and in his charter is
expressed the reason of his donation, viz. Because queen Emergarda
dying 3tio. Id. Februarij, anno 1233, and being buried in the church
of Balmerinach, ante magnum altare, had by her testament left him
200 merks sterling." ' [Jamieson p. 128[45], cites Catalogue, p. 259]

' Laurence de Abernethy' , witness [together with Patrick, earl
of Dunbar, Malcolm, earl of Fife, Malisse, earl of Strathearn,
Walter Cumin of Menteith, William, earl of Mar, Alexander, earl
of Buchan, David de Hastings, earl of Athol, Robert de Bruce,
Alan Durward, Henry de Balliol, Roger de Mowbray, Laurence de
Abernethy, Richard Cumin, David de Lindsey, William de Lindsey,
David de Graham, and others] to confirmation by Alexander II of
his treaty with England, 1244 [Anderson p. 355[44], cites Matthew
Paris, Chronica Majora, IV:381-5]

re: Laurence de Abernethy, Leslie wrote:
' He gave the Canons of the priory of St. Andrews ten shillings
yearly, payable out of Ballinbreich, with the consent of Sir
Patrick Abernethy, his son and heir, about 1230. Sir Patrick's
son, Hugh de Abernethy, possessed great influence previous to and
during the reign of Alexander III., about 1260.' [Leslie p. 37, Note
A]

Laurence married Dervorguilla of Galloway.


17 Dervorguilla of Galloway.

her identification as daughter of Uhtred of Galloway by Andrew
B. W. MacEwen[30]

Genealogics #I00116896[2]


20 Duncan mac Dubhgaill.
died aft Sep 1244.[44],[36]
Occupation: king of the Isles.

lord of Argyll and Lorn c. 1244

recorded as a donor to St. Cuthbert's, Durham with his father,
and brothers Olaf and Ranald [DLV p. 4[48],[36]]

witness to a charter to Paisley abbey, ca. 1224

founder of the priory of Ardchattan on Loch Etive, ca. 1230
- granted lands in Benderloch, possibly Appin and Nether Lorn
[McDonald p. 93[36]; also Duffy, pp. 41-42[49]]

allied with Alan of Galloway against Olaf of Man, 1229/1230
[Oram p. 128[50]]

defeated by Gillespie mac Dubhgal (his brother) and Olaf of Man,
May 1230 [Gillespie wounded in attack on Rothesay; d. in Kintyre[50]]

'Donnchadh mac Dubhghaill', one of the Scots barons [together with
John Bisset 'the younger'] who wrote to the Pope re: the minority
of King Alexander III, 1244[49]:
' Duncan de Argyll ' , together with Patrick, earl of Dunbar, Malcolm,
earl of Fife, Malisse, earl of Strathearn, Walter Cumin of Menteith,
William, earl of Mar, Alexander, earl of Buchan, David de Hastings,
earl of Athol, Robert de Bruce, Alan Durward, Henry de Balliol,
Roger de Mowbray, Laurence de Abernethy, Richard Cumin, David de
Lindsey, William de Lindsey, David de Graham, and others, addressed
letter to Pope Innocent IV in support of confirmation by Alexander
II of his treaty with England, 1244 [Anderson pp. 355-7[44], cites
Matthew Paris, Chronica Majora, IV:381-5]

builder of Dunstaffnage Castle, with his son Ewen

possibly the 'MacSomhairle..king of Airer-Goidel' slain in Ireland,
1247 [McDonald p. 94[36]]. Duffy believes this was his cousin,
Ruadhri [p. 47[49]]

' Donchadh mic Dubhgaill mic Somairli ' [ Duncan son of Dougall son
of Somerled ] - Genealach Mac Dubhgaill, from the Senchus Fer
nAlban[38]

cf. McDonald, pp. 93-94[36]
Oram p. 128[50]
Duffy, pp. 41-42[49]


24 Walter le Steward.
died in 1241.[1]
Occupation: seneschal and justiciar of Scotia.

steward of Scotland

appointed Justiciar of Scotland by King Alexander II, 1230

negotiated the 2nd marriage of Alexander II (to Marie de Coucy),
1239 [SP I:12[1] ]

Walter married B____.


25 B____.

identified as " B___" [possibly ' Bethoc ' ]
identification based on original research of Andrew B. W. MacEwen[55]

identified in Scots Peerage, and widely accepted, as 'probably
Beatrix of Angus' [SP I:12[1]]


26 Maelmure 'Og' of Menteith.
died in 1230.[32]
Occupation: Earl of Menteith.

Earl of Menteith

recognized as heir by his elder brother Maelmure, who resigned his
earldom to King William, 6 Dec 1213,
' et dominus rex eundem comitatum reddidit Mauricio juniori sicut
jus suum '. Witnesses included Gilbert, Earl of Strathearn. [Red
Book of Menteith II:214, citing inspeximus of Henry III of England
dated 20 Sept 1261[7] ]



1. Sir James Balfour Paul, ed., "The Scots Peerage," Edinburgh: David
Douglas, 1904-1914 (9 volumes).
2. "Genealogics," website by Leo van de Pas,
http://www.genealogics.com
3. Charles J. Leslie, "Historical Records of the Family of Leslie,"
Edinburgh: Edmonston and Douglas, 1869, .pdf image files provided
by Genealogy.com http://www.genealogy.com.
4. Alexander Crawford Lindsay, "Lives of the Lindsays, or, A Memoir
of the Houses of Crawford and Balcarres," London: J. Murray, 1849,
.pdf image files provided by Genealogy.com http://www.genealogy.com.
5. Sir Robert Douglas, "The Peerage of Scotland," full title: The
Peerage of Scotland: containing an historical and genealogical
account of the nobility of that kingdom, from their origin to the
present generation, Edinburgh: G. Ramsay and Company, 1813, 2 vols.
6. W. H. Bliss, ed., "Calendar of Entries in the Papal Registers
Relating to Great Britain and Ireland," Papal Letters, Vol. II
(A.D. 1305 - 1342), London: for the Public Record Office, 1895,
(reprinted 1971, Kraus-Thomson, Liechtenstein).
7. William Fraser, "The Red Book of Menteith," Edinburgh: 1880, .pdf
image files provided by Genealogy.com http://www.genealogy.com,
history and evidences concerning the Earls and Earldom of Mentieth.
8. Stephen I Boardman, "The Early Stewart Kings: Robert II and Robert
III, 1371-1406," East Linton: Tuckwell Press, 1996, (The Stewart
Dynasty in Scotland Series, Vol. I).
9. Walter de Grey Birch, "Catalogue of Seals in the Department of
Manuscripts in the British Museum," London: Longmans and Co.,
1894, Printed by Order of the Trustees.
10. G. W. S. Barrow, "Robert Bruce and the Community of the Realm of
Scotland," Edinburgh University Press, 1976 (2nd ed.).
11. "Clan Stirling,"
http://www.clanstirling.org/uploads/ragmanrolls.pdf
provides .pdf file of the names of those who swore allegiance to
Edward I of England at Berwick, 1296 (the 'Ragman Rolls').
12. D. E. Easson, ed., "Charters of the Abbey of Coupar Angus,"
Edinburgh: T. and A. Constable, Ltd., for the Scottish History
Society, 1947.
13. Joseph Stevenson, "Documents illustrative of the history of
Scotland from the death of King Alexander the Third to the
Accession
of Robert Bruce," Edinburgh: H. M. General Register House, 1870
(Vol. I), 1870 (Vol. II).
14. "The National Archives," URL
http://www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/
15. "Calendar of the Patent Rolls," preserved in the Public Record
Office, Edward I. A.D. 1301-1307, London: for the Public Record
Office, 1898, (reprinted 1971, Kraus-Thomson, Liechtenstein).
16. John William Linzee, "The Lindeseie and Limesi families of Great
Britain," Boston, Mass.: privately published, 1917, .pdf image
files provided by Genealogy.com http://www.genealogy.com.
17. Joseph Bain, ed., "Calendar of Documents relating to Scotland,"
Edinburgh: Her Majesty's General Register House, 1888 (Vol. III),
full title: Calendar of Documents relating to Scotland, Preserved
in Her Majesty's Public Record Office, London.
18. Robert Battle, "Amy de Gaveston - the 1334 fine," 27 Feb 2001,
GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com.
19. William Robertson, Esq., " An index, drawn up about the year 1629,
of many records of charters, granted by the different sovereigns of
Scotland between the years 1309 and 1413,...," Edinburgh: Printed
by Murray & Cochrane, 1798, full title: An index, drawn up about
the
year 1629, of many records of charters, granted by the different
sovereigns of Scotland between the years 1309 and 1413, most of
which records have been long missing., With an introduction, giving
a state, founded on authentic documents still preserved, of the
ancient records of Scotland, which were in that kingdom in the
year 1292., To which are subjoined, indexes of the persons and
places mentioned in those charters, alphabetically arranged.
20. William Fraser, "Memorials of the family of Wemyss of Wemyss,"
Edinburgh, 1888, 2 vols.
21. John P. Ravilious, "The Ancestry of Mary Abernethy: a Menteith
Connection ?," 5 Dec 2003, cites dispensations involving the
Abernethy and Lindsay families, and others, soc.genealogy.medieval,
email therav3@aol.com.
22. Andrew B. W. MacEwen, "telephone conversation, 26 November 2006,"
re: identification (proof) of wife of Sir Alexander de
Abernethy as dau. of Alexander, Earl of Menteith; notes,
library of John P. Ravilious.
23. John P. Ravilious, "SP Addition: Margaret (___), wife of Sir
Alexander de Abernethy," 24 Aug 2006, GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com.
24. "Charters of the Royal Burgh of Ayr," Edinburgh: printed for The
Ayr and Wigton Archaeological Association, 1883.
25. Charles Rogers, ed., Chartulary of the Cistercian Priory of
Coldstream, London: printed for the Grampian Club, 1879.
26. Cosmo Innes, "Liber Sancte Marie de Melros," Edinburgh, 1837
(vol. II), courtesy Googlebooks, URL

http://books.google.com/books?q=mar&id= ... F-8&pgis=1.
27. William Croft Dickinson, Gordon Donaldson and Isabel A. Milne,
eds., "A Source Book of Scottish History," London, Edinburgh:
Thomas Nelson and Sons, Ltd.
28. "Access to Archives," http://www.a2a.pro.gov.uk/
29. Augustinus Theiner, ed., "Vetera Monumenta Hibernorum et Scotorum,"
Osnabruck: Otto Zeller, 1969.
30. Andrew B. W. MacEwen, "telephone conference re: (1) Isabel de
Dunbar, wife of Roger fitz John of Warkworth," (2) Christina
Stewart, countess of Dunbar; (3) Cecilia, dau. of John fitz Robert
of Wark, reference made to his publications on The Seven
Countesses,
and 1999 article on Alexander Sutherland of Dunbeath and his
mistress, Catherine Chalmers, 28 October 2004, notes, library of
John P. Ravilious.
31. William Alexander Lindsay, K.C., Windsor Herald; John Dowden,
D.D., LL.D.; and John Maitland Thomson, LL.D., eds., "Charters,
Bulls and Other Documents relating to the Abbey of Inchaffray,"
3rd Series, Vol. 56, Edinburgh: T. and A. Constable, 1908.
32. Samuel Cowan, "Three Celtic Earldoms : Atholl, Strathearn,
Menteith," Edinburgh: N. Macleod, 1909, .pdf image files provided
by Genealogy.com http://www.genealogy.com.
33. Bruce A. MacAndrew, "The Sigillography of the Ragman Roll,"
Proceedings of the Society of Antiquaries of Scotland, 1999
(Vol. 129), pp. 663-752.
34. John Horne Stevenson, K.C. and Marguerite Wood, Ph.D., Scottish
Heraldic Seals: Royal, Official, Ecclesiastical, Collegiate,
Burghal, Personal, Glasgow: printed by Robert MacLehose & Coy.,
Limited
at the University Press, 1940 (Vol. II).
35. D. E. Easson, ed., "Miscellaneous Monastic Charters," Miscellany of
the
Scottish History Society, Edinburgh: T. and A. Constable Ltd. for
the Society,
1951, Vol. VIII, pp. 3-18.
36. R. Andrew McDonald, "The Kingdom of the Isles: Scotland's Western
Seaboard,
c. 1100- c. 1336," East Lothian: Tuckwell Press, 1997.
37. Cosmo Innes, ed., "Liber Insule Missarum: abbacie canonicorum
regularium
B. Virginis et S. Johannis de Inchaffery," Edinburgh: printed for
the Bannatyne
Club, 1847.
38. Senchus Fer nAlban [Pedigrees of the Scottish Clans], "From Irish
and Scottish
MSS.," http://members.aol.com/lochlan4/pedigree.htm.
39. Leo van de Pas, "Stewart Saga - One," Dec 12, 1998,
GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com.
40. G. Harvey Johnston, "The Heraldry of the Stewarts," Edinburgh: W. &
A.K.
Johnston, 1906, .pdf image files provided by Genealogy.com
http://www.genealogy.com, p. 64, Menteith.
41. G. E. Cokayne, "The Complete Peerage," 1910 - [microprint,
1982
(Alan Sutton) ], The Complete Peerage of England Scotland Ireland
Great
Britain and the United Kingdom.
42. George Crawfurd, "The History of the Shire of Renfrew," Paisley:
Printed and
sold by Alex. Weir, 1782, (originally, Edinburgh : Printed by James
Watson,
1710), [also as cited by Burke; and Paisley Herald article, F of
Barrochan], '
containing a genealogical history of the royal house of
Stewart,..'.
43. Alastair Campbell of Airds, "A History of Clan Campbell,"
Edinburgh: Polygon
[an imprint of Edinburgh University Press Ltd.], 2000, Vol. I:
From Origins to
Flodden.

44. Alan O. Anderson, "Scottish Annals from English Chroniclers, A.D.
500 to
1286," London: David Nutt, 1908.
45. John Jamieson, D.D., "An Historical Account of the Ancient Culdees
of
Iona," Edinburgh: John Ballantyne and Company, 1811, courtesy
Google Books.
46. William Angus, ed., "Miscellaneous Charters, 1165-1300, from
Transcripts in the Collection of the late Sir William Fraser,"
Miscellany
of the Scottish History Society, Edinburgh: T. and A. Constable
Ltd. for
the Society, 1926, Vol. IV, pp. 303-358.
47. William Fraser, ed., "Memoirs of the Maxwells of Pollok,"
Edinburgh, 1863,
.pdf image files provided by Genealogy.com http://www.genealogy.com.
48. "Liber Vitae Ecclesiae Dunelmensis," A. H. Thomson, ed., The
Surtees
Society: Vol. 136, 1928, collotype facsimile of the original
(see Vol. 13 - transcription).
49. Sean Duffy, "The lords of Galloway, earls of Carrick, and the
Bissets
of the Glens: Scottish settlement in thirteenth-century Ulster,"
David
Edwards, ed. Regions and Rulers in Ireland, 1100-1650, Essays for
Kenneth Nicholls, (Cork Studies in Irish History, Vol. 4), Dublin:
Four
Courts Press, 2004.
50. Richard Oram, "The Lordship of Galloway," Edinburgh: John Donald,
2000.
51. "Banff charters, A.D. 1232-1703," London: Oxford University Press,
H.
Milford, 1915, courtesy Genealogy.com.
52. Ebenezer Henderson, LL.D, "The Annals of Dunfermline and Vicinity,
from the Earliest Authentic Period to the Present Time, A.D. 1069
- 1878,"
Glasgow: John Tweed, 1879, text available courtesy of Electric
Scotland,
http://www.electricscotland.com/history/dunfermline/
53. James Dennistoun, ed., "Cartularium Comitatus de Levenax," ab
initio
seculo decimi tertii usque at annum M.CCC.XCVIII., Edinburgh, 1833.
54. Sir Norman Lamont of Knockdow, Bart., F.S.A. (Scot.), "An Inventory
of Lamont Papers, 1231-1897," Presented to the Scottish Record
Society,
Edinburgh: J. Skinner & Company, Ltd., 1914.
55. Andrew B. W. MacEwen, "telephone conference re: (1) William Fleming
of Barrochan and marriage to dau of Lord Sempill," (2) Sir George
Campbell
and Elizabeth Stewart, evidently dau. of Sir Alan Stewart of
Darnley, and
other matters, 17 November 2004, notes, library of John P.
Ravilious.


John P. Ravilious wrote:
Sunday, 26 November, 2006



Hello All,

Following is the promised AT [Part I] for Mary de Abernethy.
This would also be the same for her full sister Margaret, wife of
John Stewart, Earl of Angus.

Cheers,

John *




1 Mary de Abernethy.
died bef 19 Nov 1355.[1]

co-heiress of Abernethy[1]

Genealogics #I00116895[2]

her purparty included the baronies of Ballinbreich, co. Fife and
Cairney, co. Forfar (charters for Ballinbreich and Cairney given
to Sir Andrew de Leslie by King Robert I - Leslie p. 18[3])

"..indenture between Andrew de Leslie, son and heir of Norman de
Leslie, Chevalier, with the consent of Mary, his wife, as heiress
of the deceased Sir Alexander Abernethy, on the one part, and Sir
William Lindsay, Rector of Ayr, and Chamberlain of Scotland from
1312 to 1322, on the other part, whereby the said Sir Andrew
obliges himself to infeft Sir William Lindsay in twenty-four
merks land in the tenement of Cairney, to be held of the
granter [sic], dated 25th December 1316." [Leslie pp. 18-19[3],
cites Lindsay, vol. i p. 61[4], and Douglas's Peerage,
vol.ii p. 424[5] ]

dispensation from Pope John XXII, dated at Avignon, 4 Kal. Dec. [28
Nov.] 1324:
' To David de Lindesay and Mary daughter of Alexander de Abirnethine,
of the diocese of Glasgow. Dispensation to intermarry, they being
related in the fourth degree, and a former husband of Mary being
related to David in the same degree.' [CPL II:241[6]]

she m. lstly Sir Andrew Leslie,
2ndly David Lindsay

cf. SP III:10, sub _Lindsay, Earl of Crawford_[1]
SP VII:269, sub _Leslie, Earl of Rothes_[1]

aft 28 Nov 1324 Mary married Sir David de Lindsay.[6],[1]



SNIP

Nathaniel Taylor

Re: The Last of the Neanderthal

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 27 nov 2006 06:17:51

In article <1164598077.482403.40860@l12g2000cwl.googlegroups.com>,
"taf" <farmerie@interfold.com> wrote:

[sorry for reviving a thread perhaps better left dead, but I kept
meaning to make a medieval correction here]

Jwc1870@aol.com wrote:

For some time now I`ve been convinvced that the
Neanderthal peoples have interbred with the Cro Magnons on a large scale. I
further suggess that Grendel and his mother of the Beowulf legend were in
fact
Neanderthal and Ibn Khaldun who explored the Scandanavian area around 922
also
encountered some pure Neanderthals (See the book / film " The Thirteenth
Warrior"
by Michael Crichton or better Ibn Khaldun`s own account.

You have fallen for Crichton's trick of art. The envoy Ibn Fadlan (not
Ibn Khaldun) was sent to a Bulgar settlement near the Volga, and took
advantage of the proximity to visit a nearby Rus trading settlement,
describing what he saw there. He then returned to Bagdad. He never
went to Scandinavia.

While using a retelling of Ibn Fadlan's account as the jumping-off
point for his book "Eaters of the Dead" (sometimes sold as "The
Thirteenth Warrior", the movie having used that title), at its heart
the book is a retelling of a different account of Scandinavian
adventurers, Beowulf. Thus, he introduces his Beowulf character into
Ibn Fadlan's account of the Volga Rus, and then jumps to the Beowulf
tale, taking Ibn Fadlan along as a narrator offering an alien voice to
tell the otherwise familiar story. This is all fictional manipulation
- everything after the viking funeral.

If anyone is interested in an English translation of this famous
'viking' funeral episode from Ibn Fadlan's account of his travels, there
is a good one in:

James Montgomery, "Ibn Fadlan and the Rusiyyah," _Journal of Arabic and
Islamic Studies_ 3 (2000), 1-25.

The narrative by ibn Fadlan occupies pp. 5-22. The journal is published
by the University of Bergen (Norway) and the article is available online:

http://www.uib.no/jais/v003/montgo1.pdf

Nat Taylor
http://www.nltaylor.net

Gjest

Re: Ducal kinsfolk: Arthur, Duke of Brittany's kinsman, R

Legg inn av Gjest » 27 nov 2006 07:01:02

In a message dated 11/25/06 3:11:52 PM Pacific Standard Time,
pedricks@ozemail.com.au writes:

<< 6. Roger de Mowbray
7. John de Mowbray
8. John de Mowbray
9. John de Mowbray
10. John de Mowbray, Duke of Norfolk
11. Eleanor Mowbray >>

In this section you have one extra John compared to me.
Here is what I have with dates
Eleanor Mowbray "eldest daughter" b abt 25 Mar 1364
John, 4th Lord /Mowbray/ of Axholme, co Lincs. b 25 Jun 1340
John, 3rd Lord /Mowbray/ of Thirsk b 29 Nov 1310
John, 2nd Lord /Mowbray/ "said to have been born 4 Sep 1286" (see also AR8,
Line 18A, pg 29)
Roger, Lord /Mowbray/ 1295 "Minor in 1266"

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: SP Addition: ___ de Menteith, wife of Sir Alexander de A

Legg inn av Gjest » 27 nov 2006 07:16:02

In a message dated 11/26/06 7:50:42 PM Pacific Standard Time, therav3@aol.com
writes:

<< ' Donchadh mic Dubhgaill mic Somairli ' [ Duncan son of Dougall son
of Somerled ] - Genealach Mac Dubhgaill, from the Senchus Fer
nAlban[38] >>

Thanks John, I'm now in the ranks of the descendents of Somerled.
Where do I send my check to get my membership card :)
Will

Merilyn Pedrick

Re: Ducal kinsfolk: Arthur, Duke of Brittany's kinsman, R

Legg inn av Merilyn Pedrick » 27 nov 2006 07:25:03

Dear Will
Yes, I appear to have slipped in an extra John. Sorry for the mistake. My
database says the same as yours.
Merilyn

-------Original Message-------

From: WJhonson@aol.com
Date: 11/27/06 16:32:00
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Ducal kinsfolk: Arthur, Duke of Brittany's kinsman, Robert de
Vitré

In a message dated 11/25/06 3:11:52 PM Pacific Standard Time,
pedricks@ozemail.com.au writes:

<< 6. Roger de Mowbray
7. John de Mowbray
8. John de Mowbray
9. John de Mowbray
10. John de Mowbray, Duke of Norfolk
11. Eleanor Mowbray >>

In this section you have one extra John compared to me.
Here is what I have with dates
Eleanor Mowbray "eldest daughter" b abt 25 Mar 1364
John, 4th Lord /Mowbray/ of Axholme, co Lincs. b 25 Jun 1340
John, 3rd Lord /Mowbray/ of Thirsk b 29 Nov 1310
John, 2nd Lord /Mowbray/ "said to have been born 4 Sep 1286" (see also AR8,
Line 18A, pg 29)
Roger, Lord /Mowbray/ 1295 "Minor in 1266"

Will Johnson

-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Gjest

Re: Faramus de Bolonia, descendant of the Counts of Boulogne

Legg inn av Gjest » 27 nov 2006 07:26:02

I have a note that there was a posting here in June of 2005 that claimed that
Faramus was still living in 1183/4 ? And somehow it must have been related
also to his son William as I have that William was born "bef 1184" which looks
suspiciously like there must be a 1184 document.

I don't have the original email however.

Gjest

Re: Reliability of Stirnet site?

Legg inn av Gjest » 27 nov 2006 10:04:02

I once contacted the author of Stirnet with reference to my own family which
was wrong. I never ever received a response to him and neither has he
updated his site with the correct info.

Kind Regards,

Rose
Epsom Downs/ UK

Researching in Pembrokeshire: DAVIES (of St. Ishmael's/Talbenny), FEILD,
FERRIOR, ELLIOT (of Steynton/Amroth), THOMAS (of Marloes/Llanstadwell), CORNOCK,
HIER, ROWE (of Penally) and far too many others to list.

Researching in Ireland : Wexford - Ballycanew area: CRANWILL / CRANWELL,
KEEGAN, CONNORS / CONNOR.

Researching in Ireland : ST. LEGER

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: Reliability of Stirnet site?

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 27 nov 2006 14:36:30

In message of 27 Nov, Maytree4@aol.com wrote:

I once contacted the author of Stirnet with reference to my own family
which was wrong. I never ever received a response to him and neither
has he updated his site with the correct info.

And I contacted them with some evidence that their account could be
questioned and they have included a reference to this on one of their
tables.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: Reliability of Stirnet site?

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 27 nov 2006 15:30:48

In message of 27 Nov, I <tim@powys.org> wrote:

In message of 27 Nov, Maytree4@aol.com wrote:

I once contacted the author of Stirnet with reference to my own
family which was wrong. I never ever received a response to him and
neither has he updated his site with the correct info.

And I contacted them with some evidence that their account could be
questioned and they have included a reference to this on one of their
tables.

And I had better add that today I found another matter, sent them a
note and got a reply within an hour promising to update the page later
today. Fantastic!

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/

Gjest

Re: Reliability of Stirnet site?

Legg inn av Gjest » 27 nov 2006 16:46:02

Ah well, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt! Maybe he never received
my email. I'll try again.

Kind Regards,

Rose
Epsom Downs/ UK

Researching in Pembrokeshire: DAVIES (of St. Ishmael's/Talbenny), FEILD,
FERRIOR, ELLIOT (of Steynton/Amroth), THOMAS (of Marloes/Llanstadwell), CORNOCK,
HIER, ROWE (of Penally) and far too many others to list.

Researching in Ireland : Wexford - Ballycanew area: CRANWILL / CRANWELL,
KEEGAN, CONNORS / CONNOR.

Researching in Ireland : ST. LEGER

Researching in England : HEVENINGHAM

Doug McDonald

Re: SP Addition: ___ de Menteith, wife of Sir Alexander de A

Legg inn av Doug McDonald » 27 nov 2006 17:22:57

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 11/26/06 7:50:42 PM Pacific Standard Time, therav3@aol.com
writes:

' Donchadh mic Dubhgaill mic Somairli ' [ Duncan son of Dougall son
of Somerled ] - Genealach Mac Dubhgaill, from the Senchus Fer
nAlban[38]

Thanks John, I'm now in the ranks of the descendents of Somerled.
Where do I send my check to get my membership card :)
Will

I will do just fine :-) (not seriously)



Doug McDonald

steven perkins

Re: SP Addition: ___ de Menteith, wife of Sir Alexander de A

Legg inn av steven perkins » 27 nov 2006 17:39:39

Will:

First you have to buy the music album, Sons of Somerled,

http://www.amazon.com/Sons-Somerled-Ste ... B000008QUR

Regards,

Steven C. Perkins

On 11/27/06, Doug McDonald <mcdonald@snpoam_scs.uiuc.edu> wrote:
WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 11/26/06 7:50:42 PM Pacific Standard Time, therav3@aol.com
writes:

' Donchadh mic Dubhgaill mic Somairli ' [ Duncan son of Dougall son
of Somerled ] - Genealach Mac Dubhgaill, from the Senchus Fer
nAlban[38]

Thanks John, I'm now in the ranks of the descendents of Somerled.
Where do I send my check to get my membership card :)
Will

I will do just fine :-) (not seriously)



Doug McDonald

-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message



--
Steven C. Perkins SCPerkins@gmail.com
http://stevencperkins.com/
Researching Indigenous Peoples' Rights
http://intelligent-internet.info/law/ipr2.html
Indigenous and Ethnic Minority Legal News
kttp://iemlnews.blogspot.com/
On-Line Journal of Genetics and Genealogy
http://jgg-online.blogspot.com/
Steven C. Perkins' Genealogy Page
http://stevencperkins.com/genealogy.html

Gjest

Re: SP Addition: ___ de Menteith, wife of Sir Alexander de A

Legg inn av Gjest » 27 nov 2006 20:16:02

After I'd sent this, half-jokingly, I looked more and discovered I'm
actually a descendent from Somerlad by three of his children. So my DNA must be at
least three billionths Somerladish.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Reliability of Stirnet site?

Legg inn av Gjest » 27 nov 2006 20:17:02

I've also contacted the author of stirnet and gotten a response in the past.
So I know he's alive. I would imagine he gets a lot of emails every day,
so be sure your subject line is clear and relevant.

Will Johnson

John P. Ravilious

Re: SP Addition: ___ de Menteith, wife of Sir Alexander de A

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 27 nov 2006 20:47:26

Monday, 27 November, 2006


Dear Will,

Glad to hear you saved yourself some serious sterling, courtesy
of your existing membership (as a Son of Somerled, that is).

One quibble (or a third of one, anyway) with your last message.
Dougal (or Dubhgall) and Reginald (also Raghnall, or Ranald) are
two sons of Somerled who have known descendants to the present day:
there is a outstanding error in most versions of the Stewart
pedigree that gives Alexander the Stewart (d. 1283) a wife, "Jean of
Bute", allegedly a descendant of Somerled by his son Angus. There
is no evidence that supports this statement in Scots Peerage, but
it has found it's way into almost every Stewart pedigree as a
result. I have corrected one of my 2003 charts (below) to show
the 'correct' spouses (known and NN, or unknown), in this case
showing the relationship between David Lindsay of Crawford (d. bef
13 Oct 1357) and his wife Mary Abernethy, "they being related in
the fourth degree " [CPL II:241]. The one remaining conjectural
link is shown as _ _ _ _ _ .


Walter le Steward = B____
d. 1241 I
_______________________I_______
I I
Alexander le = Joan Walter le Steward = Mary of
Steward I [Johanna] Earl of Menteith I Menteith
_ _ _ I _________________I
I I
NN = NN le Alexander = Matilda [of
I Steward E of Menteith I Strathearn ?]
I _ _ _ _ d. ca. 1306 I___________
I I
I I
Sir Alexander = NN Sir Alexander Abernethy = NN of
Lindsay I I Menteith
I ____________I
I I
David Lindsay = Mary Abernethy


There is a charter of James the Steward to Melrose abbey
granting lands in Innerwick, ' for the salvation of the souls of
lord Alexander our dear father and lady Johanna our dear
mother ' [ " pro salute animarum d'ni Alexandri pat's n'ri k'mi 't
d'ne Johanne mat's n're k'me..." ] [ Melrose Muniments,
Appendix, p. 687, no. 24]. However, the Stewarts had lands in
Bute and Arran prior to Alexander the Stewart as pointed out to
me by Andrew MacEwen, so the inference that the marriage of
Alexander and Joan brought these lands to the Stewarts has no
foundation.

Cheers,

John *



WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
After I'd sent this, half-jokingly, I looked more and discovered I'm
actually a descendent from Somerlad by three of his children. So my DNA must be at
least three billionths Somerladish.

Will Johnson

Gjest

re: Alice Plantagenet married Thomas Musgrave

Legg inn av Gjest » 27 nov 2006 22:40:06

Alice Plantagenet is stated to be the mother of that Richard Musgrave (d
1491) who married Jane (Joan) Clifford (d aft not ON 20 May 1494)

That Alice was his mother is supported on
<a href =
"http://www.tudorplace.com.ar/PLANTAGENET3.htm#Alice%20PLANTAGENET1">Plantagenet Entry</a> on tudorplace.com.ar citing "Alice Plantagenet married
Sir Thomas Musgrave and had a son Richard Musgrave who married Joan Clifford"

and contradicted on

<a href =
"http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00321414&tree=LEO">Entry</a> on genealogics, citing his mother as Jean Stapilton, and
sourcing Cahiers de Saint Louis.

<a href =
"http://www.stirnet.com/HTML/genie/british/mm4fz/musgrave2.htm#link1">Entry</a> on stirnet citing his mother as "Mary (probably not Joan)
Stapleton (dau of Sir William Stapleton of Edenhall)"

Will Johnson

Leo van de Pas

Re: One line to Somerlad

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 27 nov 2006 23:43:14

See below

----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2006 8:44 AM
Subject: One line to Somerlad


Leo asked me for one line from me to Somerlad, so I thought I'd post it
here
for comment.
Will Johnson
---------------------------------
Somerled, King of the /Isles/ (d 1 Jan 1164)
Dubhgall (Dougall), King of /Argyll/ and Innesgall
Duncan mac Dubhgaill, King of the /Isles/ (d aft Sep 1244)
Ewen mac Dubhgaill, King of the /Isles/
Mary of /Argyll/ (d 1300/1303)
Alexander, Lord of /Abernathy/ in Perthshire (d abt 1316)
Mary /Abernathy/ (d bef 19 Nov 1355)
Sir Alexander /Lindsey/ (d 1382 at Candia)
David Lindsey, 1st Earl /Crawford/ (d 12 Aug 1407 Castle of Finhaven)
Elizabeth /Lindsey/ (d aft 1409)
Thomas, 2nd Lord /Erskine/ (d aft 1 Oct 1482)
Alexander, 3rd Lord /Erskine/ (d bef 10 May 1509)
Agnes /Erskine/
--------Scots Peerage page 608 - Agnes married William Menteith of Kerse but

no direct evidence of their parentage has been found.-------What does this
mean? Is not certain they were parents? Or it was not certain who the
parents were of Agnes and her husband?
Leo

William /Menteith/ of Kerse and Alva (d aft 1535)
Robert of /Menteith/ (d aft 1547)
John /Menteith/ (d 1594/1611) mar Suzanne Hotman

Will Johnson

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quotes in the subject and the body of the message

John Higgins

Re: Alice Plantagenet married Thomas Musgrave

Legg inn av John Higgins » 28 nov 2006 02:06:11

Aside from Tudorplace, can you cite any evidence for the actual existence of
this Alice Plantagenet? I believe she's mentioned in a Musgrave pedigree in
the very unreliable 1583/4 Visitation of Yorkshire, but all other pedigrees
of the Musgraves taht I've seen don't make this connection. It's a fair bet
that she's fictitious, as there are many descendants of Thomas Musgrave, and
this early connection to a Plantagenet does not appear to be mentioned in
any of the compilations by authors who are usually positively drooling to
find such connections...

----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 1:29 PM
Subject: re: Alice Plantagenet married Thomas Musgrave


Alice Plantagenet is stated to be the mother of that Richard Musgrave (d
1491) who married Jane (Joan) Clifford (d aft not ON 20 May 1494)

That Alice was his mother is supported on
a href =

"http://www.tudorplace.com.ar/PLANTAGENET3.htm#Alice%20PLANTAGENET1">Plantag

enet Entry</a> on tudorplace.com.ar citing "Alice Plantagenet married
Sir Thomas Musgrave and had a son Richard Musgrave who married Joan
Clifford"

and contradicted on

a href =

"http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00321414&tree=LEO">Entry

</a> on genealogics, citing his mother as Jean Stapilton, and
sourcing Cahiers de Saint Louis.

a href =

"http://www.stirnet.com/HTML/genie/british/mm4fz/musgrave2.htm#link1">Entry

/a> on stirnet citing his mother as "Mary (probably not Joan)
Stapleton (dau of Sir William Stapleton of Edenhall)"

Will Johnson

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quotes in the subject and the body of the message

taf

Re: One line to Somerlad

Legg inn av taf » 28 nov 2006 02:21:19

Leo van de Pas wrote:
--------Scots Peerage page 608 - Agnes married William Menteith of Kerse but
no direct evidence of their parentage has been found.-------What does this
mean? Is not certain they were parents? Or it was not certain who the
parents were of Agnes and her husband?

The latter - it is not certain who their parents were.

taf

Gjest

Re: Alice Plantagenet married Thomas Musgrave

Legg inn av Gjest » 28 nov 2006 02:26:02

In a message dated 11/27/06 5:09:07 PM Pacific Standard Time,
jthiggins@sbcglobal.net writes:

<< Aside from Tudorplace, can you cite any evidence for the actual existence
of
this Alice Plantagenet? I believe she's mentioned in a Musgrave pedigree in
the very unreliable 1583/4 Visitation of Yorkshire >>

Thanks John and no. The discrepancy was brought to my attention by an alert
reader of the archives where some time past, I called "Thomas Musgrave" a
[relative] nobody, at least in relation to the fact that his son Richard married
into the family of the Lords Clifford.

That person was bolstering him by claiming he married into the Plantagenets
and that Richard Musgrave had a Plantagenet mother. So I went looking for the
support for this.

That's my story. These aren't in my direct line as far as I know, but
Richard Musgrave is 8 steps from Richard Cecil in the following way:

Richard Musgrave d 10 Aug 1491 had a son
Edward Musgrave d 23 May 1542 who had a daughter
Elizabeth Musgrave dsp 1533 who married
John Neville, 3rd Lord Latimer d 2 Mar 1543 who had a son (by a prior wife)
John Neveilla, 4th Baron Latimer d 22 Apr 1577 who had a daughter
Dorothy Neville, Countess Exeter d 23 Mar 1608 who married
Thomas Cecil, 1st Earl of Exeter (cr 1605, d 8 Feb 1623) son of
William Cecil, Baron Burghley son of
Richard Cecil


Will Johnson

Leo van de Pas

Re: One line to Somerlad

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 28 nov 2006 04:38:44

Dear Will,

Sadly, I think we have to let this one go----what are the other two?
Leo

----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2006 8:44 AM
Subject: One line to Somerlad


Leo asked me for one line from me to Somerlad, so I thought I'd post it
here
for comment.
Will Johnson
---------------------------------
Somerled, King of the /Isles/ (d 1 Jan 1164)
Dubhgall (Dougall), King of /Argyll/ and Innesgall
Duncan mac Dubhgaill, King of the /Isles/ (d aft Sep 1244)
Ewen mac Dubhgaill, King of the /Isles/
Mary of /Argyll/ (d 1300/1303)
Alexander, Lord of /Abernathy/ in Perthshire (d abt 1316)
Mary /Abernathy/ (d bef 19 Nov 1355)
Sir Alexander /Lindsey/ (d 1382 at Candia)
David Lindsey, 1st Earl /Crawford/ (d 12 Aug 1407 Castle of Finhaven)
Elizabeth /Lindsey/ (d aft 1409)
Thomas, 2nd Lord /Erskine/ (d aft 1 Oct 1482)
Alexander, 3rd Lord /Erskine/ (d bef 10 May 1509)
Agnes /Erskine/
William /Menteith/ of Kerse and Alva (d aft 1535)
Robert of /Menteith/ (d aft 1547)
John /Menteith/ (d 1594/1611) mar Suzanne Hotman

Will Johnson

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Gjest

Re: One line to Somerlad

Legg inn av Gjest » 28 nov 2006 05:16:03

In a message dated 11/27/06 7:39:11 PM Pacific Standard Time,
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au writes:

<< Sadly, I think we have to let this one go----what are the other two? >>

Evil..... !

Somerled, King of the /Isles/ d 1164
Arran Of The /Isles/
Ragnhild of the /Isles/ married James MacRory, Lord of /Bute/
Joanna NOT the heiress of Bute // (her parentage is challenged)
married Alexander 4th /Stewart/ of Scotland


Just looking at this it doesn't look too promising does it :)
Somerled, King of the /Isles/ d 1164
Angus, Lord of /Bute/ d 1210
One Son) James (Seumas) of Argyl, Lord /Macsomerled/
Another Son) James MacRory, Lord of /Bute/

Or are these two people the same person?

Both sons directly above (unless they are the same person) are given as the
father of... guess who
Joanna NOT the heiress of Bute //

So I think it's hopelessly confused now.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Alice Plantagenet married Thomas Musgrave

Legg inn av Gjest » 28 nov 2006 10:53:05

WJhonson wrote:
The discrepancy was brought to my attention by an alert
reader of the archives where some time past, I called "Thomas Musgrave" a
[relative] nobody, at least in relation to the fact that his son Richard married
into the family of the Lords Clifford.

That person was bolstering him by claiming he married into the Plantagenets
and that Richard Musgrave had a Plantagenet mother. So I went looking for the
support for this.

I think these Musgraves have their descent sketched out in CP, as one
was summoned to Parliament in the 14th C. Thomas did marry Joan
Stapleton- Patricia Junkin may be able to tell you more, as Joan's
mother was a Vipont. Thomas Musgrave probably had a bit of royal
ancestry via an ancestor who married a Ros, hence descent from William
the Lion et al., but I've seen the exact descent given in different
ways and am not sure which is correct.

-Matthew

Gjest

Re: Pembridge (Pembrugge, etc) pedigree

Legg inn av Gjest » 28 nov 2006 19:06:19

Some more clues have turned up to help sort out this particular line:
I wrote:
The biographies in HoP Commons 1386-1421 for John Merbury and others
give the following Pembridge information:

1. Sir John Pembridge of Pembridge=Elizabeth, had:

2. Alice, daughter and heiress, d.1415=(1) Edmund de la Bere, (2)
Thomas Oldcastle of Eyton MP d.1398/9, (3) John Merbury of Weobley MP
d.1438 (as his first wife). Alice had issue:

3a. Richard Oldcastle dsp 1421
3b. Wintelan (Gwenllian, aka Joan) Oldcastle b.1392= Sir Robert Whitney
of Whitney MP (d.1443), with issue.
3c. Isabel= Walter Hackluyt, with issue.
3d. Elizabeth Merbury, d&h of John,=Sir Walter Devereux of Bodenham
(1411-1459), with issue.

There's a useful document on Chris Phillips' site at
http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/fin ... 9.shtml#28
dated 1385, which involves Thomas Oldcastle and Alice his wife and
mentions "Elizabeth who was the wife of John Penbrugge kt" holding
lands for life. This tells us that John was dead by then and confirms
his wife's name as Elizabeth; also that Alice was on her second
marriage by that date. The places mentioned are the manors of "Boghrade
and Treweryn" and lands in "Eton', Boghrade and Borghulle".

There's another document from later in 1385 in the Patent Rolls, RIII
vol 3 p.52, a pardon that again mentions "Thomas Oldecastell and Alice,
his wife", "the manor of Boghrad and Treweryn" and lands in "Eton
Boghrad, held in chief, whereof Elizabeth late the wife of John de
Penbrugge, knight, was tenant for life, and which was part of the
inheritance of the said Alice".

This ties in neatly with something in the National Archives
(C143/315/17):
"John son of Edward de Penebrugge to settle the manors of Bouthrede and
Eaton [in Leominster] on himself, Elzabeth his wife and his heirs,
retaining the manor of Burghill. Hereford. 28 EIII" (1354-5). The
continuity of place and wife suggest this is the same John as above, so
he is son of an Edward.

Again supported by the Patent Rolls: (EIII 10 p.344) Feb 1 1356:
"Licence, for 100s. to be paid to the king by John son of Edward de
Penebrugge, for him to enfeoff Robert Whiteney and Thomas de Hampton of
the manors of Bouthrede and Eton, co. Hereford, held of the king in
chief, and for them to grant the same to him and Elizabeth, his wife,
and his heirs."

A grant by "Elizabeth, wife of Sir Jno. Penebrugge, to William ap
Richard and John ap Richard of lands &c. in Gweligwimiethe, 26 EIII
(1352)" appears in 'Bibliotheca Phillippica' (1903) p151 no.1187 (On
Google Books). [If Elizabeth was of Welsh extraction it might explain
her grandaughter being named Wenllian.]

"Edward de Penbrigg" had a grant from Edward III for a market and fair
at Boughrood, 5 Oct 1335 (see http://www.history.ac.uk/cmh/gaz/wales.html#Bou )

An "Edward de Penebrugge" seems to have held land in
Westbury-on-Severn, Glos. in 1349 at the death of Nicholas de Gamage
(see http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report ... mpid=15766 ).

Thinking about the chronology, I now suspect that the Edward above
would be of a younger generation than the one below.

Indeed he was, as the one below was dsp in 1306.

There is an earlier record of Edward de P with a brother called John
(NA, C/143/36/7): John de Penebrugge to grant a rent in Meon, which he
holds of the king in chief, to Edward his brother, retaining rent
there. Glouc. 29EI (1300-1).

This Edward had an IPM in 1306, when it was stated that he "died
without heirs of his body, whereof the said rent [in Meon] ought to
revert to the said John de Pennebrugg. The said John is the brother and
next heir of the said Edward, and is aged 40 years and more."

There is more information on this earlier John summarised in Rev.
Charles Moor's 'Knights of Edward I' vol 4 (Harl. Soc. 83) p.32,
including that he was s & h of Elizabeth de P, dec., and had livery of
her lands 6 Aug 1309; he was a lord of Eyton and Burghill, Herefs. 5
Mar 1316; his IPM was 4 Feb 1331, when he held "Bouwered, Eton, and
Borwehulle" hamlets and left a s & h Edward, aged 26. We can be
reasonably sure by the devolution of the manors that this latter Edward
was the father of the later Sir John. [This Edward's birthdate of
c.1305 may mean he was John's son by Joan Hawey, whose first husband
Sir Peter Stradling is thought to have died about then; if so, he would
be a half-brother of Sir Edward Stradling.]

This seems to connect with C/143/133/3:
Fulk de Penbrugge to retain the manor of Mune acquired by him from John
de Penbrugge. Glouc. 11EII (1317-8). This Fulk is presumably the one
with dates 1291-1326. Again I'm not sure where Meon/Mune is if it's in
Glos.

This seems to give the answer: E 210/2115. Henry son of Ralph de
Penebruge to Payn his son; grant of his manor of Meon [in Quinton],
(Mune): Glos (no date). The villages of Lower and Upper Quinton are
indeed on Meon Hill, and were in Gloucestershire until 1931 apparently
(now in Warwickshire).

Although that charter is undated, we have a 1281 reference to "Payn de
Painsbrugge" as tenant of "Boghred", in a dispute with Ralph de "Touny"
(CPR EI vol.2 p.43). This dispute turns out to have a long history- in
1258 mention is made of "trespasses and excesses committed against
Roger de Mortuo Mari and Henry de Penbregg in the parts of Wales by
Roger de Thony, Richard de Thunderle and Alan, Constable of
Painscastle" (CPR HIII 4 p.664); in 1254 "Henry de Penebrugg and
Elizabeth his wife, and Lucy and Eufemia her sisters, have shown that
Richard de Tunderle disseised Godfrey de Gamages, father of the said
Elizabeth, Lucy and Eufemia, whose heirs they are, of the land of
Trewarn"; the argument being whether the said land was part of the
Honour of Painscastle (ie de Tony land) or "of the honour of Boghred,
which the said Godfrey held in chief". The dispute had started by 1252,
when Godfrey de Gamages and Richard de Tunderle were the parties.

There was an inquisition in 1253 "to ascertain whether Henry de
Penebrigg was seised of the manor of Meone and of 10 librates of land
in Dimmokes, which were of Godfrey de Gameages in the time of the said
Godfrey". So Meon was also a Gamage inheritance.

The implications of all this are that Eyton didn't have one Henry too
few in his Pembruge pedigree (as I conjectured before), but one too
many, as it was evidently the elder Henry who married Elizabeth Gamages
(as a second marriage), while afterwards securing the other heiresses
for his sons by his earlier wife (perhaps Joan Fitzwarin, as mentioned
before; Henry's son and heir (by the first wife), also Henry, was
admitted to the king's peace in 1268 "by mainprise of Fulk son of Warin
of the county of Salop"- CPR HIII 6 p.273); it also means that the
elder branch (later of Tong, a quo Vernons) don't have the Gamage and
Mynors ancestry, and indeed they didn't inherit any of the lands.

The line looks to go something like this (sons may not be in correct
birth order):

1.Ralph de Pembridge (maybe the 1216 one, I should have more info soon)
2.Sir Henry de Pembridge, dcd Aug 1271
+(1) [Joan dau Fulk III Fitzwarin?] dcd 1253
3a.Henry d.1279
+[?(1) Lucy de Gamages c.1254, dcd 1263 sp]
+(1/2)Orabel de Harcourt, with issue
+(2/3)Alice, liv.1312
3b.William d.1317
+Euphemia de Gamages, with issue
[?3c.Fulk, who bought marriage of Henry jr's heir 1285]

2.Henry dcd 1271, as above;
+(2) Elizabeth de Gamages c.1253, dcd 1309
3d.Payn liv.1281 [pres. dsp]
3e.Sir John, b by 1266, dcd 1331
+[Joan (Hawey) Stradling?]
4.Edward bc.1305, liv.1335, 1349?
+NN
5.Sir John liv.1356 dcd 1385
+Elizabeth liv.1385
6.Alice d.1415, married with issue as at top of post.
3f.Edward dsp 1306
3g.Godfrey liv.1267

-Matthew

Yvonne Purdy

RE: Clan's' blood needed for survey

Legg inn av Yvonne Purdy » 28 nov 2006 20:20:23

Reiving activity even today: From the Alston (Cumbria) Cybermoor site,
where the local police report local crime:
Theft of Sheep - 40 Swaledale Sheep stolen from open moorland above

Garrigill between July and 1st November 2006.
<<
The spur on the platter must have been presented:-))

Regards,
Yvonne,
Hexham, Northumberland (lately of Alston, Cumbria)

From: Renia [mailto:nowhere@nowhere.com]
Sent: 28 November 2006 11:31
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Clan's' blood needed for survey


Strange, all this talk of Border Reivers lately:

(snip)

Tony Hoskins

Re: Baskerville, Pery, and Parke kinfolk of the Jourdaine de

Legg inn av Tony Hoskins » 29 nov 2006 01:54:43

Thanks. Very interesting.

Also, perhaps of interest. Elizabeth (Baskerville) Jourdain's brother,
Sir Simon Baskerville, physician to James I's Queen Anne, has an entry
in the _DNB_.

I descend from Elizabeth (Baskerville) Jourdain's daughter Sarah
(Jourdain) (Hill) (Sowther) Greenleaf (1599-c.1694), of Boston, MA. I've
long suspected her potential "royal-gateway-ness " but so far the
project languishes.

Tony Hoskins


Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404

707/545-0831, ext. 562

Tony Hoskins

Re: Baskerville, Pery, and Parke kinfolk of the Jourdaine de

Legg inn av Tony Hoskins » 29 nov 2006 02:24:17

In re: Elizabeth (Baskerville) Jourdain's brother, Sir Simon
Baskerville:

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report ... mpid=17216

Tony Hoskins

Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404

707/545-0831, ext. 562

Gjest

Re: Baskerville, Pery, and Parke kinfolk of the Jourdaine de

Legg inn av Gjest » 29 nov 2006 03:21:02

What ever happened to the Hounds of the Baskervilles?

Jno

Gjest

Re: Patrick 7th Earl of Dunbar or Patrick III

Legg inn av Gjest » 29 nov 2006 20:01:07

In a message dated 11/29/2006 10:51:39 AM Pacific Standard Time,
tim@powys.org writes:

Complete Peerage follows a different convention by putting the surname
(if any) in brackets as in 'PATRICK (DE DUNBAR), EARL OF DUNBAR' with
the whole lot in capitals. It does not include the succession number
in the name, having it to the left of the paragraph (and in fact having
two numbers, one the number from the first creation and second the
number of the latest creation).


So SP calls him "7th Earl" you are saying.
But you didn't say what CP calls him. Does it call him 7th? 3rd? or both?
Thanks
Will Johnson

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: Patrick 7th Earl of Dunbar or Patrick III

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 29 nov 2006 22:11:35

In message of 29 Nov, WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 11/29/2006 10:51:39 AM Pacific Standard Time,
tim@powys.org writes:

But you didn't say what CP calls him. Does it call him 7th? 3rd? or
both? Thanks

All previous correspondence has been wiped here. Can you identify which
of the earls you might be talking about? CP has five Patricks in
succession. Perhaps a death date would identify him.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/

Gjest

Re: Patrick 7th Earl of Dunbar or Patrick III

Legg inn av Gjest » 29 nov 2006 22:34:17

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

So SP calls him "7th Earl" you are saying.
But you didn't say what CP calls him. Does it call him 7th? 3rd? or both?
Thanks
Will Johnson

It calls him VIth & 6th:

"VI. 1248. 6. PATRICK (DE DUNBAR), EARL OF DUNBAR [S]"

Gjest

Re: =?iso-8859-1?q?Parentage_of_Maud_de_Vitr=E9, _wife_of_He

Legg inn av Gjest » 29 nov 2006 23:02:03

In a message dated 11/29/06 1:06:32 PM Pacific Standard Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:

<< One Vitré female whose parentage has previously eluded me is Maud de
Vitré, first wife of Henry (II) de Pomeroy (died 1194), of Berry
Pomeroy, Devon, nephew of Reynold Fitz Roy, Earl of Cornwall [see
Vivian, Visitations of the County of Devon (1895), pg. 605]. >>


Isn't it a bit of a stretch to use the Visitations of Devon to state a
relationship between people in the 12th century?

Will Johnson

Gjest

re: Thomas Stanton d 1677 Stonington

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 nov 2006 01:25:03

Thomas Stanton died 2 Dec 1677 at Stonington, Connecticut
He married Ann Lord d/o Dr Thomas Lord by Dorothy Bird about 1637 and had a
number of chidren

In the past, this Thomas Stanton has been equated with that Thomas who, in
the Visitation of Warwick was "3 years old (or in his third year)" when the
Visitation was taken in 1619.

There is an article in TAG evidently in 1937 which disputes this
identification.

This page however
http://www.ultimatefamilyreunion.atomic ... 744279.htm
referencing the history of the argument, now states that the identification
has again been restored.

They quote the "Stanton Family Newsletter" where an article quotes memorials
from the walls of the church at Wolverton

The gist of the argument is that Thomas Stanton the "Lord of the Manor" by
this they mean Wolverton, was born in 1621 and died in 1664. The visitation was
taken in 1619 and therefore they claim there were two sons named Thomas, with
the one born in 1621 being the one who took over at Wolverton.

If that is the sum of the argument I don't find it convincing.

It would imply, for some unstated reason, that the heir left his estate,
presumably without renumeration to proceed to the New World where he waited some
time before establishing himself in any way (i.e. his own estate).

The other problem with this identification is that some Thomas Stanton was a
"magistrate" by 1635/7.
The baptism record for Thomas Staton is 4 May 1617 at Wolverton
(http://www.familysearch.org - IGI - British Isles - Batch C024881 "Bishop's transcripts 1614-1877
Parish Church of Wolverton" quoting "Thomas Stanton bap 4 May 1617 Wolverton,
son of Thomas Stanton and Katherine")

There is almost no chance that this is a different Thomas than the one in the
Visitations. So "at 3" would mean "in his third year" as opposed to "being
already 3 and more". He is 17 at his entry to Oxford in 1634 which accords
with this birthyear.

However being a magistrate at the age of 18 to 20 does *not* accord with this
identification.

Which is unfortunate as he is my own direct ancestor ;)
I have found A2A records which show an unbroken line of Stanfords at
Wolverton until at least 1700, and the presence of a Thomas in this time period as
well.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Thomas Stanton d 1677 Stonington

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 nov 2006 02:01:02

This has been asked and answered on this forum. Use the search
button!!!!

On Nov 29, 7:23 pm, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:
Thomas Stanton died 2 Dec 1677 at Stonington, Connecticut
He married Ann Lord d/o Dr Thomas Lord by Dorothy Bird about 1637 and had a
number of chidren

In the past, this Thomas Stanton has been equated with that Thomas who, in
the Visitation of Warwick was "3 years old (or in his third year)" when the
Visitation was taken in 1619.

There is an article in TAG evidently in 1937 which disputes this
identification.

This page howeverhttp://www.ultimatefamilyreunion ... 744279.htm
referencing the history of the argument, now states that the identification
has again been restored.

They quote the "Stanton Family Newsletter" where an article quotes memorials
from the walls of the church at Wolverton

The gist of the argument is that Thomas Stanton the "Lord of the Manor" by
this they mean Wolverton, was born in 1621 and died in 1664. The visitation was
taken in 1619 and therefore they claim there were two sons named Thomas, with
the one born in 1621 being the one who took over at Wolverton.

If that is the sum of the argument I don't find it convincing.

It would imply, for some unstated reason, that the heir left his estate,
presumably without renumeration to proceed to the New World where he waited some
time before establishing himself in any way (i.e. his own estate).

The other problem with this identification is that some Thomas Stanton was a
"magistrate" by 1635/7.
The baptism record for Thomas Staton is 4 May 1617 at Wolverton
(http://www.familysearch.org- IGI - British Isles - Batch C024881 "Bishop's transcripts 1614-1877
Parish Church of Wolverton" quoting "Thomas Stanton bap 4 May 1617 Wolverton,
son of Thomas Stanton and Katherine")

There is almost no chance that this is a different Thomas than the one in the
Visitations. So "at 3" would mean "in his third year" as opposed to "being
already 3 and more". He is 17 at his entry to Oxford in 1634 which accords
with this birthyear.

However being a magistrate at the age of 18 to 20 does *not* accord with this
identification.

Which is unfortunate as he is my own direct ancestor ;)
I have found A2A records which show an unbroken line of Stanfords at
Wolverton until at least 1700, and the presence of a Thomas in this time period as
well.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Thomas Stanton d 1677 Stonington

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 nov 2006 02:11:01

In a message dated 11/29/06 5:05:58 PM Pacific Standard Time,
mhollick@mac.com writes:

<< This has been asked and answered on this forum. Use the search
button!!!! >>

Um I'm not asking anything

Gjest

Re: Thomas Stanton d 1677 Stonington

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 nov 2006 02:11:19

Well you're OT. Why post something that's already been discussed at
length?

On Nov 29, 8:07 pm, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 11/29/06 5:05:58 PM Pacific Standard Time,

mholl...@mac.com writes:<< This has been asked and answered on this forum. Use the search
button!!!!

Um I'm not asking anything

Gjest

Re: Thomas Stanton d 1677 Stonington

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 nov 2006 02:12:02

In a message dated 11/29/06 4:24:33 PM Pacific Standard Time,
WJhonson@aol.com writes:

<< I have found A2A records which show an unbroken line of Stanfords at
Wolverton until at least 1700, and the presence of a Thomas in this time
period as
well. >>

Of course this should say "Stanton" not "Stanford".
Will

Gjest

Re: Was Regicide John1 Dixwell a son of William Dixwell, or

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 nov 2006 02:16:02

It's useful to have the list of children of Mark Dixwell, thanks for that.

Interesting that only Bennet was evidently baptised *at* Barham, Kent 1639
(Batch C041635 Barham, Kent)

The other children all baptised at Folkestone, Kent were (Batch P020721
Parish Registers of Folkestone, Kent):

Elizabeth bap 29 Dec 1636
Alice bap 2 Mar 1638
Basil bap 24 Jun 1640
Heardson bap 15 Aug 1641
William bap 31 Dec 1642


Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Baskerville, Pery, and Parke kinfolk of the Jourdaine de

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 nov 2006 03:01:03

Dear Jno,
I think Hugo de Baskerville and his successors can only be
found in the world of Arthur Conan Doyle wherein William Sherlock Scott Holmes
and John H Watson, MD investigated those strange occurances on the moors.

Sincerely,

James W Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA

Ken Ozanne

Re: [Revised post] Parentage of Maud de Vitr é, wife of Hen

Legg inn av Ken Ozanne » 30 nov 2006 05:16:02

Douglas,
I find these two generations a bit difficult:

6 *William d' Aumerle b: ABT 1295 d: 1335
+ *Isabel de Meriet b: ABT 1295
7 *William d' Aumale b: ABT 1300 d: 1362
+ *Agnes (Helen\Elen) de Meriet b: ABT 1300

Maybe just one of them?

Best,
Ken

On 30/11/06 12:05 PM, "gen-medieval-request@rootsweb.com"
<gen-medieval-request@rootsweb.com> wrote:

From: "Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com
Date: 29 Nov 2006 13:21:49 -0800
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: [Revised post] Parentage of Maud de Vitré, wife of Henry de Pomeroy

Dear Newsgroup ~

In the course of my research on the Dinan and Vitré families of
Brittany, I've continued to encounter various connections between the
Dinan and Vitré families to English families of similar rank. One
Vitré female whose parentage has previously eluded me is Maud de
Vitré, first wife of Henry (II) de Pomeroy (died 1194), of Berry
Pomeroy, Devon, nephew of Reynold Fitz Roy, Earl of Cornwall [see
Vivian, Visitations of the County of Devon (1895), pg. 605]. Maud de
Vitré's maiden name and marriage to Henry (II) de Pomeroy is attested
by a charter of their son and heir, Henry (III) de Pomeroy, to St.
Michael's Mount, Cornwall in which Henry (III) de Pomeroy refers to
himself as "Henry de Pomeroy son of lady Maud de Vitré." An abstract
of this charter is presented below:

"Grant in pure and perpetual alms by Henry de Pomeray, son of Matilda
de Viteri, to the priory, of rents in Boscawen in St. Buryan and in
Treliver (? Trelew). Date: c. 1194-1207.

Carta Henrici de Pomereia filij Matildis de Viteri de decem solidis uno
obolo minus scilicet sex solidos et nouem denarios et obulum in
Boscawen et tres solidos et duas denarios in Trelyuer.

Sciant presentes et futuri quod ego Henricus de Pomereia filius domine
Matildis de Viteri concessi et presenti carta mea confirmaui deo et
sancto Michaeli et monachis apud montem sancti Michaelis de Cornubia
ibidem deo seruientibus pro salute mee et antecessorum meorum in puram
et perpetuam elemosinam decem solidos vno obulo minus scilicet sex
solidos et nouem denarios et obolum in Boscawen et tres solidos et duos
denarios in Treliuer reddituum annuatim ad duos terminos scilicet ad
festum sancti Jacobi et ad festum sancti Michaelis sicud carta domini
Henrici de Pomereia patris mei quaque inde habent eis testatur. Hiis
testibus. Odone filio Frawini. Willelmo capellano de Eglospenbro.
Willelmo de Teuton. Henrico de Binull'. Osberto Tremino. magistro
Michaele et multis aliis." [Reference: P. L. Hull, ed., The Cartulary
of St. Michael's Mount (Devon & Cornwall Record Society, n.s. 3)
(1962): 18-19].

An indication of Maud de Vitré's parentage is found in the Pipe Rolls
for 1194, which record shows that Henry de Pomeroy, son of Maud,
rendered account of 700 marks to have his inheritance in England and
abroad. Henry de Pomeroy's pledges include various people, among them
being Robert de Vitré and William de Botreaux. The latter invidual,
William de Botreaux, is one of Henry de Pomeroy's known relatives. My
experience with other Pipe Roll records involving such pledges
indicates that pledges were often near relatives to the person in
question.

An abstract of the actual Pipe Roll entry is presented below.

"Henricus de Pomnereio r.c. de DCC m. pro habenda hereditate sua citra
mare et ultra cum beneuolentia R. per plegium Roberti de Viteri, et
Osberti f. Herberti . et Nicholai de Chaueincurt . Nicholai de Meriet .
et comitis Rogeri le Bigot . et Galfridi [de Say] et Galfridi f. Petri
. et comitis de Clara . et Willelmi de Boterell . et episcopi Heref' .
et Hugonis de Hersin . et Simonis de Belcamp . et Robert Deuwias. In
thes. C et xxx li. Et debet CCC et xxxvj li. et xiij s. et iiij d."
[Reference: Doris M. Stenton, ed., The Great Roll of the Pipe for the
Sixth Year of the Reign of King Richard the First Michaelmas 1194 (Pipe
Roll 40) (Pipe Roll Soc. n.s. 5) (1928): 169].

Robert de Vitré in this generation was the brother of the well known
Eleanor de Vitré, Countess of Salisbury in England, mother-in-law of
William Longespée, Earl of Salisbury. Robert de Vitré was canon of
Saint-Julien of Le Mans, and Precentor of Notre Dame of Paris,
1197-1208. He was granted the castle of Langeais in Touraine by his
kinsman, Duke Arthur of Brittany, in 1199 [Reference: Charles Travis
Clay, Early Yorkshire Charters, 4 (1935): 74]. Robert de Vitré had
land interests in England. Sometime before 1196, Robert and his
mother, Emme de Dinan, were in possession of the manor of Burton by
Thigden (or Burton Plessy) [in Burton Latimer], Northamptonshire,
formerly held by Emme's brother, Roland de Dinan; this manor
escheated to the crown in 1196 [Reference: VCH Northampton 3 (1930):
181-182]. He was likewise given the manor of Cheveley, Cambridgeshire
by his brother, André de Vitré, which manor subsequently passed to
his niece, Gervaise de Dinan, and her husband, Richard Marshal, Earl of
Pembroke [Reference: VCH Cambridge 10 (2002): 46].

Although more evidence would be desirable, it seems likely that Maud de
Vitré, wife of Henry II de Pomeroy, was the sister of the above named
Robert de Vitré, Precentor of Paris. As such, she would appear to be
the daughter of Robert de Vitré, Sr., seigneur of Vitré in Brittany,
by his wife, Emme, daughter of Alan de Dinan.

For interest's sake, the following is a list of the 17th Century New
World immigrants who descend from Maud de Vitré, wife of Henry (II) de
Pomeroy. The immigrants below include the newly identified Jane
Greene, wife of William Pole (or Poole), of Massachusetts.

William Bladen, Elizabeth Bosvile, Charles Calvert, Jane Greene (two
descents), George Reade, Olive Welby, Thomas Wingfield.

A descent from Maud de Vitré down to William Bonville, Lord Bonville,
is presented below, which descent is taken from Holly Forest Tamer's
database at the following weblink:

http://awt.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi ... 03&ti=5538

1 *Maud de Vitré b: ABT 1146
+ *Henry II de Pomeroy b: BEF 1146 d: AFT 1193
2 *Henry III de Pomeroy b: ABT 1168 d: 1207
+ *Alice de Vernon b: ABT 1168 d: 1206
3 *Henry IV de Pomeroy b: ABT 1192 d: 1220
+ *Joan de Valletort b: ABT 1195
4 *Henry V de Pomeroy b: ABT 1220 d: 12 JUL 1281
+ *Isolde de Pyn b: ABT 1245 d: 1311
5 *Joan de Pomeroy b: ABT 1268
+ *Geoffrey d' Aumerle b: ABT 1266 d: ABT 1321
6 *William d' Aumerle b: ABT 1295 d: 1335
+ *Isabel de Meriet b: ABT 1295
7 *William d' Aumale b: ABT 1300 d: 1362
+ *Agnes (Helen\Elen) de Meriet b: ABT 1300
8 *Margaret d' Aumale d: 25 MAY 1399
+ *William Bonville d.14 FEB 1407/1408
9 *John Bonville b: 1371 d: 21 OCT 1396
+ *Elizabeth Fitz Roger d. 10 APR
1414
10 *William Bonville, d. 18 FEB
1460/1461
+ *Margaret de Grey b: ABT 1397
+ Isabella Kirkeby (mistress not
wife) b: ABT 1410

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Gjest

Re: Was Regicide John1 Dixwell a son of William Dixwell, or

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 nov 2006 14:41:03

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
It's useful to have the list of children of Mark Dixwell, thanks for that.

Interesting that only Bennet was evidently baptised *at* Barham, Kent 1639
(Batch C041635 Barham, Kent)

The other children all baptised at Folkestone, Kent were (Batch P020721
Parish Registers of Folkestone, Kent):

Elizabeth bap 29 Dec 1636
Alice bap 2 Mar 1638
Basil bap 24 Jun 1640
Heardson bap 15 Aug 1641
William bap 31 Dec 1642


Will Johnson


It appears for several reasons that Edward DIXWELL is the father of
John the regicide.
First is the will of William DIXWELL:
Documents on line
Will of William DIXWELL of Coton Warwickshire 9 July 1639
PROB 11/180
Image ref 626/572 4 pages

Will mentions loving wife, Elizabeth [Brent], daughters, Mary,
Elizabeth & Katherine DIXWELL ; loving brothers , Sir Basil & Humphrey
DIXWELL, Charles DIXWELL one of the sons of my brother Edward,
deceased; & my loving sister, Barbara. Also his sons William and Brent.
NO WHERE in this will is there a son named John.

Secondly-
The " Oxford Dictionary of National Biography" reads:[John] DIXWELL was
living at Folkestone when he was admitted to Lincoln's Inn in 1631"
!!!!

admission 3 February 1631 confirmed by Jo HUTCHINGS archivist Lincoln's
Inn. Called to the bar there 30 Jan. 1638.
Brother Mark admitted to Lincoln's Inn 27 Jan 1629 but was not called
to the bar there

Rachel LATHROP in her report, " Descendants of John DIXWELL"
Folkestone, England states"
[John] settled in Kent, of Folkestone parish AFTER his father's death,
lived with his uncle, Sir Basil DIXWELL, of a prominent Kent gentry
family."

My recent findings on Edward DIXWELL are:
The Register of the University of Oxford 1571-1622 Vol.II" p. 198
1st column date of entry in Matriculation register & subscription
book- 25 Jan. 1593
2nd column- name of college or hall- Bras.
3rd column name of student- Edward DYXWELL[ DIXWELL]
4th column county where student born- Warwickshire
5th column quality or social standing & age of student of father- f.
[filius] son pleb.[ commoner] age 18 meaning he was born about 1575.

From the archivist Brasenose college:
According to the 'Register' Edward Dixwell/Dyxwell was born in

Warwickshire and matriculated (the formal ceremony of admittance as a
member of the University) on 25 January 1593/4 (1594 by modern
reckoning), aged eighteen. However, Foster gives his matriculation date
as 23 November 1593. I have not been able to identify which is the
correct date, but the University Archives (http://www.oua.ox.ac.uk) may
be able to help. At matriculation his status was given as 'plebeius
filius', son of a common man, that is one with no particular social
standing (not one reckoned as a nobleman, 'esquire' or gentleman, and
not a clergyman). He did not remain at Brasenose, as his B.A. was
awarded from Merton College on 17 October 1597 and his M.A. from St.
Alban Hall (owned by Merton) on 16 July 1600. There may be further
information in the archives at Merton College
We have an annotated edition of the 'Register' which belonged to an
amateur genealogist, but I do not know what his sources were and cannot
testify as to their accuracy. The annotations record that Edward was
the son of Charles Dixwell, and that he attended Eton College. Foster
records that he was vicar of Ponteland, Northumberland in 1602.
I hope that this will be of interest to you.
Yours sincerely
Elizabeth Boardman

From the archivist Merton College:
Thank you for your enquiry concerning Edward Dixwell, although I regret

I can add very little if anything to what the archivist at Brasenose
has been able to tell you. Merton College has few records relating to
its students before the middle of the seventeenth century. What
information is known about earlier students is largely drawn from the
records of matriculations and graduations kept by the University; it is
one of the peculiarities of Oxford and Cambridge that students lived
and studied together in a college but their degrees were (and still
are) awarded by the University.

I imagine that the information you were given came from Joseph Foster's
Alumni Oxonienses, the published biographical register of members of
the University to c.1880, which draws heavily on the matriculation and
graduation records. I note from Foster that Edward Dixwell was Vicar
of Ponteland in Northumberland in 1602 (it is not clear from Foster
whether Dixwell was appointed then or was recorded in post by that
date). You may be interested to know, at least, that Merton College
has the right to appoint the Vicar of Ponteland, so it is possible that
Dixwell secured his appointment by having been a member of the college.
I have checked the minutes of Governing Body meetings, which normally
record such appointments, for the period 1599-1602 but without success.
Unfortunately, there is a gap in the minutes for the period April
1601-February 1602.

I hope this information, albeit limited, will be of interest.

Yours sincerely

Julian Reid

Archivist
Merton College
University of Oxford

From the Los Angeles Public Library:
"I have checked the "Eton College Register 1441-1698" & did locate the

individual about whom you are inquiring. His name is listed under the
DYXWELL spelling & most of the information about his schooling &
matriculation dates is correct. He was commensal at the third table &
K.S.[ King's Scholar] after 1588. He was 18 years old when he
matruiculated from Brasenose College on Nov. 23, 1593. He was the 2nd
son, his father was from Coton, in the county of Warwick and his
mother, Abigail, was the daughter of Henry [?] HERDSON, alderman of
London. In 1602 Edward DYXWELL was vicar of Ponteland in the county of
Northumberland. He was married to [ first name not listed], daughter of
[ first name also not listed] HAUKESWORTH.
Thank you fot contacting the Los Angeles Public Library.

IGI Ponteland Northumbria
POO4411 show the following children born to a Eduuard DIXWELL /DYXWELL
Marcus b. 18 Feb 1609 b+ 26 Feb 1609

****Johannes b. 21 March 1613 b+ 6 Apr 1613

Jacobus b 13 Jan 1605 b+23 Jan 1605-

Charolus b. 20 Mar 1615 b+ same day

Anna b. 14 May 1607 b+ 26 May 1607

Abigail b. 6 Mar 1611 b+ 7 Apr 1611

One record from the Quarter session Northumberland:
NORTHUMBERLAND QUARTER SESSIONS
Catalogue Ref. Q


The Court in Session

Quarter Sessions Indictments - ref. QSI

FILE [no title] - ref. QSI/1 - date: 1584-1630
item: [no title] - ref. QSI/1, f102r (498) - date: 2 September 8 James
I 1610
{PRIVATE "TYPE=PICT;ALT=hit"}[from Scope and Content] Presentment:
Ellinora Hindmers, Isabell Jefferson, and Barbara Howey of Ponteland,
spinsters; at Ponteland, watered hemp in a river called the Ponte in
which beasts were wont to drink, and they are to forfeit 20s., to the
king.; And George Atkinson of Ponteland, labourer Elenore Hindmers, and
Isabella Jefferson; afterwards on 3 September watered hemp and must
forfeit 20s.; And Edward Dixwell of Ponteland, clerk; Maria Dixwell,
his wife; George Atkyngson, Edward Tompson, Elynore Hyndmers, Isabell
Jefferson and Barbara Howey; watered hemp after 3 September and must
forfeit 20s
Note_ "Edward DIXWELL of Ponteland, CLERK! [clerk for whom?]

I am unable to find a marriage or his date and place of death. Unable
to locate a will.
Woodhorn Archives has the Ponteland parish registers which I believe
start in 1602. I cannot visit that facility & the fee for a researcher
at Woodhorn is 25 pounds for the 1st hour.
I contacted St Mary the Virgin Church Ponteland and was told the
registers had been transferred to Woodhorn. Perhaps someone with more
expertise can locate and check the parish registers for Ponteland.

I do strongly believe that Edward is the father of John DIXWELL.

Marge Perry

Gjest

Re: Was Regicide John1 Dixwell a son of William Dixwell, or

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 nov 2006 15:42:54

One further record - the Visitation of Kent MDCLXIII:
The Visitiation of Kent 1663-1668
DIXWELL
Edward DIXWELL of Coton in co. Warw. = Mary, da. of ---- HAWKSWORTH
under this Mark DIXWELL of Brome in Com. Kent = Eliz{da. of Mathew READ
of Folkstone AR
Under Mark
Sr Basill DIXWELL of Brome, Bart.1663 = Dorothy, da. of Sr Tho.
PAYTON of Knowlton Bart
and under this Elizabeth

FINALLY a record showing Edward DIXWELL as the father of Mark. Note
John is conspicuously missing. Elizabeth READE ,Mark & John's mother
married in 1659 Sir Henry OXENDEN and the family was "ignoring any
relationship to Col. John DIXWELL. John DIXWELL " persona non grata "in
his own family except for his niece Elizabeth [Dixwell] WESTROWE,
daughter of Mark DIXWELL.
Another small piece to help find the "real father" of John DIXWELL

Marge Perry

mep33@sbcglobal.net



mep33@sbcglobal.net wrote:
WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
It's useful to have the list of children of Mark Dixwell, thanks for that.

Interesting that only Bennet was evidently baptised *at* Barham, Kent 1639
(Batch C041635 Barham, Kent)

The other children all baptised at Folkestone, Kent were (Batch P020721
Parish Registers of Folkestone, Kent):

Elizabeth bap 29 Dec 1636
Alice bap 2 Mar 1638
Basil bap 24 Jun 1640
Heardson bap 15 Aug 1641
William bap 31 Dec 1642


Will Johnson


It appears for several reasons that Edward DIXWELL is the father of
John the regicide.
First is the will of William DIXWELL:
Documents on line
Will of William DIXWELL of Coton Warwickshire 9 July 1639
PROB 11/180
Image ref 626/572 4 pages

Will mentions loving wife, Elizabeth [Brent], daughters, Mary,
Elizabeth & Katherine DIXWELL ; loving brothers , Sir Basil & Humphrey
DIXWELL, Charles DIXWELL one of the sons of my brother Edward,
deceased; & my loving sister, Barbara. Also his sons William and Brent.
NO WHERE in this will is there a son named John.

Secondly-
The " Oxford Dictionary of National Biography" reads:[John] DIXWELL was
living at Folkestone when he was admitted to Lincoln's Inn in 1631"
!!!!

admission 3 February 1631 confirmed by Jo HUTCHINGS archivist Lincoln's
Inn. Called to the bar there 30 Jan. 1638.
Brother Mark admitted to Lincoln's Inn 27 Jan 1629 but was not called
to the bar there

Rachel LATHROP in her report, " Descendants of John DIXWELL"
Folkestone, England states"
[John] settled in Kent, of Folkestone parish AFTER his father's death,
lived with his uncle, Sir Basil DIXWELL, of a prominent Kent gentry
family."

My recent findings on Edward DIXWELL are:
The Register of the University of Oxford 1571-1622 Vol.II" p. 198
1st column date of entry in Matriculation register & subscription
book- 25 Jan. 1593
2nd column- name of college or hall- Bras.
3rd column name of student- Edward DYXWELL[ DIXWELL]
4th column county where student born- Warwickshire
5th column quality or social standing & age of student of father- f.
[filius] son pleb.[ commoner] age 18 meaning he was born about 1575.

From the archivist Brasenose college:
According to the 'Register' Edward Dixwell/Dyxwell was born in
Warwickshire and matriculated (the formal ceremony of admittance as a
member of the University) on 25 January 1593/4 (1594 by modern
reckoning), aged eighteen. However, Foster gives his matriculation date
as 23 November 1593. I have not been able to identify which is the
correct date, but the University Archives (http://www.oua.ox.ac.uk) may
be able to help. At matriculation his status was given as 'plebeius
filius', son of a common man, that is one with no particular social
standing (not one reckoned as a nobleman, 'esquire' or gentleman, and
not a clergyman). He did not remain at Brasenose, as his B.A. was
awarded from Merton College on 17 October 1597 and his M.A. from St.
Alban Hall (owned by Merton) on 16 July 1600. There may be further
information in the archives at Merton College
We have an annotated edition of the 'Register' which belonged to an
amateur genealogist, but I do not know what his sources were and cannot
testify as to their accuracy. The annotations record that Edward was
the son of Charles Dixwell, and that he attended Eton College. Foster
records that he was vicar of Ponteland, Northumberland in 1602.
I hope that this will be of interest to you.
Yours sincerely
Elizabeth Boardman

From the archivist Merton College:
Thank you for your enquiry concerning Edward Dixwell, although I regret
I can add very little if anything to what the archivist at Brasenose
has been able to tell you. Merton College has few records relating to
its students before the middle of the seventeenth century. What
information is known about earlier students is largely drawn from the
records of matriculations and graduations kept by the University; it is
one of the peculiarities of Oxford and Cambridge that students lived
and studied together in a college but their degrees were (and still
are) awarded by the University.

I imagine that the information you were given came from Joseph Foster's
Alumni Oxonienses, the published biographical register of members of
the University to c.1880, which draws heavily on the matriculation and
graduation records. I note from Foster that Edward Dixwell was Vicar
of Ponteland in Northumberland in 1602 (it is not clear from Foster
whether Dixwell was appointed then or was recorded in post by that
date). You may be interested to know, at least, that Merton College
has the right to appoint the Vicar of Ponteland, so it is possible that
Dixwell secured his appointment by having been a member of the college.
I have checked the minutes of Governing Body meetings, which normally
record such appointments, for the period 1599-1602 but without success.
Unfortunately, there is a gap in the minutes for the period April
1601-February 1602.

I hope this information, albeit limited, will be of interest.

Yours sincerely

Julian Reid

Archivist
Merton College
University of Oxford

From the Los Angeles Public Library:
"I have checked the "Eton College Register 1441-1698" & did locate the
individual about whom you are inquiring. His name is listed under the
DYXWELL spelling & most of the information about his schooling &
matriculation dates is correct. He was commensal at the third table &
K.S.[ King's Scholar] after 1588. He was 18 years old when he
matruiculated from Brasenose College on Nov. 23, 1593. He was the 2nd
son, his father was from Coton, in the county of Warwick and his
mother, Abigail, was the daughter of Henry [?] HERDSON, alderman of
London. In 1602 Edward DYXWELL was vicar of Ponteland in the county of
Northumberland. He was married to [ first name not listed], daughter of
[ first name also not listed] HAUKESWORTH.
Thank you fot contacting the Los Angeles Public Library.

IGI Ponteland Northumbria
POO4411 show the following children born to a Eduuard DIXWELL /DYXWELL
Marcus b. 18 Feb 1609 b+ 26 Feb 1609

****Johannes b. 21 March 1613 b+ 6 Apr 1613

Jacobus b 13 Jan 1605 b+23 Jan 1605-

Charolus b. 20 Mar 1615 b+ same day

Anna b. 14 May 1607 b+ 26 May 1607

Abigail b. 6 Mar 1611 b+ 7 Apr 1611

One record from the Quarter session Northumberland:
NORTHUMBERLAND QUARTER SESSIONS
Catalogue Ref. Q


The Court in Session

Quarter Sessions Indictments - ref. QSI

FILE [no title] - ref. QSI/1 - date: 1584-1630
item: [no title] - ref. QSI/1, f102r (498) - date: 2 September 8 James
I 1610
{PRIVATE "TYPE=PICT;ALT=hit"}[from Scope and Content] Presentment:
Ellinora Hindmers, Isabell Jefferson, and Barbara Howey of Ponteland,
spinsters; at Ponteland, watered hemp in a river called the Ponte in
which beasts were wont to drink, and they are to forfeit 20s., to the
king.; And George Atkinson of Ponteland, labourer Elenore Hindmers, and
Isabella Jefferson; afterwards on 3 September watered hemp and must
forfeit 20s.; And Edward Dixwell of Ponteland, clerk; Maria Dixwell,
his wife; George Atkyngson, Edward Tompson, Elynore Hyndmers, Isabell
Jefferson and Barbara Howey; watered hemp after 3 September and must
forfeit 20s
Note_ "Edward DIXWELL of Ponteland, CLERK! [clerk for whom?]

I am unable to find a marriage or his date and place of death. Unable
to locate a will.
Woodhorn Archives has the Ponteland parish registers which I believe
start in 1602. I cannot visit that facility & the fee for a researcher
at Woodhorn is 25 pounds for the 1st hour.
I contacted St Mary the Virgin Church Ponteland and was told the
registers had been transferred to Woodhorn. Perhaps someone with more
expertise can locate and check the parish registers for Ponteland.

I do strongly believe that Edward is the father of John DIXWELL.

Marge Perry

Gjest

Re: Was Regicide John1 Dixwell a son of William Dixwell, or

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 nov 2006 16:09:23

Thanks for the additional info. -- very helpful.

"Clerk" just means he was a minister.

See also

(p. 247)
http://books.google.com/books?vid=0d3Zd ... 2-PA247,M1

Richard Smyth at Road Run

Re: Was Regicide John1 Dixwell a son of William Dixwell, or

Legg inn av Richard Smyth at Road Run » 30 nov 2006 16:11:03

Showing the DNB has the parentage right (Edward), and identifies
Edward's wife as Mary, nee Hawksworth.

Does anyone know whether her Hawksworth family is related to the family of Thomas Hawkesworth, who died at Salisbury in 1641? According to Banks he was one of the passengers on the Christian in 1635, who were "` certified' by the minister of Saint Mildred, Breadstreet, London".

Regards,

Richard Smyth
smyth@nc.rr.com

Gjest

Re: Was Regicide John1 Dixwell a son of William Dixwell, or

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 nov 2006 16:15:21

The following record, from _The Register of Admissions to Gray's Inn,
1521-1889_, shows there was an older brother, Henry, and that Edward
Dixwell, the father, was dead by 1622:

[1622 May 22.] Henry Dixwell, son and heir of Edward D., of
Ponteland, Northumberland, gent., deceased.

(p. 166)
http://books.google.com/books?vid=OCLC3 ... nd+dixwell

Gjest

Re: Was Regicide John1 Dixwell a son of William Dixwell, or

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 nov 2006 16:45:34

As for Mary HAWKSWORTH/HAWKESWORTH, the following may be a very slim
possibility that needs exploring.
While searching for a list of the Vicars of Ponteland I found the
following:
I was able to access, “Memorials of Merton College: with Biographical
Notices of Wardens & Fellows” It gives a list of the vicars of
Ponteland, but under 1602 there is no Edward DIXWELL. I did note
however that in 1606 the name Timothy HAWKESWORTH and ,” he died young
& much regretted in 1613. He was buried in the chapel .The index states
he was “Fellow of Merton.” May I ask you please to look up any
information on Timothy?
Reply from the archivist Merton College:
I am afraid that the records have produced very little on Timothy
Hawkesworth. Foster records that he took his BA from Merton on 17
February 1603/4 and his MA on 13 December 1610, and that he became a
fellow of the college in 1606. Unfortunately Foster does not record
any information on his parentage or place of birth. Similarly, the
college's own register of fellows does not record that information and
the register of burials in the college chapel and churchyard does not
begin until 1617. The only detail that the college records do provide
is that he died in early August 1613 (I read the entry as the 5th but a
colleague has read it as the 7th). This information is recorded in the
minutes of the governing body; I imagine this is where Brodrick got his
information from.

Finally, Foster records that administration of Hawkesworth's estate
after his death was granted in Oxford on 30 April 1614. Administration
was granted where a person died without having made a will. At this
date, the probate and administration of estates of members of the
university was handled by the Court of the Chancellor of the
University, the records of which are held in the University Archives.
An enquiry can be directed to enquiries@oua.ox.ac.uk

Do not know whether there is a relationship to Mary, but found it
interesting. Have not pursued the search any further yet.
Was diappointed not to find Edward listed as Vicar of Ponteland in 1602
but the archivist at Merton did state some records were missing for
that year. If anyone pursues Timothy HAWKESWORTH would you please let
me know what you find?

Marge Perry


johnb@gwm.sc.edu wrote:
The following record, from _The Register of Admissions to Gray's Inn,
1521-1889_, shows there was an older brother, Henry, and that Edward
Dixwell, the father, was dead by 1622:

[1622 May 22.] Henry Dixwell, son and heir of Edward D., of
Ponteland, Northumberland, gent., deceased.

(p. 166)
http://books.google.com/books?vid=OCLC3 ... nd+dixwell

Douglas Richardson

Re: Parentage of Maud de Vitr é, wife of Henry de Pomeroy

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 30 nov 2006 17:17:02

Dear Ken ~

Thank you for your post. Good to hear from you as always.

I'm sure you're correct that Holly Forrest Tamer has slipped in an
extra generation. Perhaps someone descended from this family can
provide us with better particulars.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah


Ken Ozanne wrote:
< Douglas,
< I find these two generations a bit difficult:
<
< 6 *William d' Aumerle b: ABT 1295 d: 1335
< + *Isabel de Meriet b: ABT 1295
< 7 *William d' Aumale b: ABT 1300 d: 1362
< + *Agnes (Helen\Elen) de Meriet b: ABT 1300
<
< Maybe just one of them?
<
< Best,
< Ken

John Brandon

Re: Was Regicide John1 Dixwell a son of William Dixwell, or

Legg inn av John Brandon » 30 nov 2006 18:11:51

John is conspicuously missing. Elizabeth READE ,Mark & John's mother
married in 1659 Sir Henry OXENDEN and the family was "ignoring any
relationship to Col. John DIXWELL. John DIXWELL " persona non grata "in

Elizabeth Read was the wife of Mark Dixwell and sister-in-law of John
of New England, I believe. See Wotton's _Baronetage_, p. 428, for the
statement that "the third lady of Sir Henry [Oxenden], was Elizabeth,
daughter of Matthew Read, of Folkston, Esq. (relict of Mark Dixwell, of
Broomehouse, Esq;) by whom he had no issue."

(p. 428)
http://books.google.com/books?vid=OCLC0 ... ad+oxenden

Gjest

Re: Was Regicide John1 Dixwell a son of William Dixwell, or

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 nov 2006 18:29:12

Thank you John.

Just received this minutes ago from the Special Collections Assistant,
University of Newcastle upon Tyne:
"Vicars of Ponteland"
"The Vicars of Ponteland" contains a chronological list of the Vicars
of St. Mary the Virgin, Ponteland.
I have included the entry for Edward Dixwell which is preceded in the
book by an entry for Richard Hancock which I assume the p.m. Hancock
refers to. The * denotes a footnote. There was no list of abbreviations
included in the book.


Edward Dixwell - instituted 1604* p.m. Hancock, of co. Warwick, pleb.
Brasenose Coll. ; matric. 23 Nov 1593, aged 18; B.A from Merton Coll.
17 Oct 1597; M.A. from St. Alban Hall 16 July 1600. The Merton list
gives date of institution as 1610, probably wrongly; he was vicar in
1607. Buried at Ponteland 10 Jan 1616/17.
'1604/5 Jan 23 Jacobus Dyxwell. filius primus Edwardi Dixwell de
Ponteland natus die (Veneris 13 Jan 1604 et baptizat 23 Jan, ejusd anno
(Registers)

*Instituted 11 May, 44 Eliz. [1602]. (Exchequer First Fruits, Index to
Composition Books ser.III). paid First fruits 18 March 1601/2 (Bishops'
Certificates, Durham, no.8)



I hope this information is of use to you.

Alan Callender
Special Collections Assistant
Robinson Library
University of Newcastle upon Tyne


I am not sure of what the last instituted 11 May, 44 Eliz.[1602] means.
Does this mean there is a record in theNational Archives?

John Brandon wrote:
John is conspicuously missing. Elizabeth READE ,Mark & John's mother
married in 1659 Sir Henry OXENDEN and the family was "ignoring any
relationship to Col. John DIXWELL. John DIXWELL " persona non grata "in

Elizabeth Read was the wife of Mark Dixwell and sister-in-law of John
of New England, I believe. See Wotton's _Baronetage_, p. 428, for the
statement that "the third lady of Sir Henry [Oxenden], was Elizabeth,
daughter of Matthew Read, of Folkston, Esq. (relict of Mark Dixwell, of
Broomehouse, Esq;) by whom he had no issue."

(p. 428)
http://books.google.com/books?vid=OCLC0 ... ad+oxenden

CE Wood

Re: Parentage of Maud de Vitr é, wife of Henry de Pomeroy

Legg inn av CE Wood » 30 nov 2006 18:48:30

Jim Weber also has this descent on his site at
http://worldconnect.genealogy.rootsweb. ... &id=I16611

The problem is not the dates, which are different on Jim's site. The
problem is consanguinity.

If Agnes (Helen/Elen) Meriet, granddaughter of John de Meriet and his
wife Margery, married William d' Aumale, d: 1362, she married her first
cousin.

1. John de Meriet, b: abt 1265 d: 1308
+ Margery, b: abt 1268
2. George de Meriet, b: abt 1290
+ Isabel, b: abt 1300
3. Agnes de Meriet, b: abt 1325
+ William d' Aumale, d: 1362

2. Isabel de Meriet, b: abt 1295
+ William d' Aumerle b: abt 1295 d: 1335
4. William d' Aumale, b: abt 1324 d: 1362
+ Agnes de Meriet, b: abt 1325


CE Wood


Douglas Richardson wrote:
Dear Ken ~

Thank you for your post. Good to hear from you as always.

I'm sure you're correct that Holly Forrest Tamer has slipped in an
extra generation. Perhaps someone descended from this family can
provide us with better particulars.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah


Ken Ozanne wrote:
Douglas,
I find these two generations a bit difficult:

6 *William d' Aumerle b: ABT 1295 d: 1335
+ *Isabel de Meriet b: ABT 1295
7 *William d' Aumale b: ABT 1300 d: 1362
+ *Agnes (Helen\Elen) de Meriet b: ABT 1300

Maybe just one of them?

Best,
Ken

Gjest

Re: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Parentage_of_Maud_de_Vitr_=E9, _wife_

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 nov 2006 18:57:02

In a message dated 11/30/2006 9:52:53 AM Pacific Standard Time,
wood_ce@msn.com writes:

1. John de Meriet, b: abt 1265 d: 1308
+ Margery, b: abt 1268
2. George de Meriet, b: abt 1290
+ Isabel, b: abt 1300
3. Agnes de Meriet, b: abt 1325
+ William d' Aumale, d: 1362

2. Isabel de Meriet, b: abt 1295
+ William d' Aumerle b: abt 1295 d: 1335
4. William d' Aumale, b: abt 1324 d: 1362
+ Agnes de Meriet, b: abt 1325


The whole affair is rather suspicious. What exactly are the sources under
this?
I checked Leo's site and he doesn't appear (in my brief check) to have any
of it.
It would be a real shame if it turns out these 12th, 13th, 14th century folk
all derive from a 17th century Visitation wouldn't it?

Will Johnson

Douglas Richardson

Re: Parentage of Maud de Vitré, wife of Henry de Pomeroy

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 30 nov 2006 19:49:20

Dear Carolyn ~

Thank you for your good post. Much appreciated.

There is a well researched article on the Meriet family in Somerset
Archaeological & Natural History Society, volume 28. There is also a
lawsuit concerning the Pomeroy-Daumarle connection in old issues of The
Genealogist (British publication).

Since you mentioned Jim Weber's great database, I thought I'd post his
version of the Vitré-Bonville descent below, as found in his database
at the following weblink:

http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bi ... &id=I18314

1 Maud de Vitre b: ABT 1146 d: BEF 1193
+ Henry II de Pomeroy, of Berry Pomeroy, Sir b: BEF 1146 d: AFT 1193
2 Henry III de Pomeroy, of Berry Pomeroy, Sir b: ABT 1168 d: 1207
+ Alice de Vernon b: ABT 1168 d: 1206
3 Henry IV de Pomeroy, of Berry Pomeroy, b: ABT 1192 d: 1220
+ Joan de Valletort b: ABT 1197 d: AFT 1275
4 Henry V de Pomeroy, of Berry Pomeroy, b: ABT 1220 d: 12
JUL 1281
+ Isolde de Pyn b: ABT 1245 d: 1311
5 Joan de Pomeroy b: ABT 1268
+ Geoffrey d' Aumerle, b: ABT 1266 d: ABT 1321
6 William d' Aumerle, b: ABT 1295 d: 1335
+ Isabel de Meriet b: ABT 1295
7 William Daumarle, b: ABT 1324 d: 1362
+ Agnes (Helen\Elen) de Meriet b: ABT 1325 d:
8 FEB 1362/63
8 Margaret Daumarle b: ABT 1347 d: 25 MAY
1399
+ William Bonville , of Shute, MP, Sir b:
ABT 1340 d: 14 FEB 1407/08
9 John Bonville , of Shute, Sir b: ABT
1371 d: 21 OCT 1396
+ Elizabeth Fitz Roger , Heiress of
Chewton d: 15 APR 1414
10 William 1st Baron Bonville , of
Chewton, KG, Sir b: 13 AUG 1393 d: 18 FEB 1460/61
+ Margaret Grey b: 1395 d: AFT 15
MAY 1426
+ Elizabeth de Courtenay b: ABT
1385 d: 18 OCT 1471

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Andrew and Inge

RE: Clan's' blood needed for survey

Legg inn av Andrew and Inge » 30 nov 2006 20:10:26

Hmmm. Jim Elliot has a well established Border Reivers DNA project,
volunteer run, with a quite big internet site that should be easily findable
by Google.

There have been several cases now where volunteer DNA projects, focussing on
regions, surnames etc, have surpassed academics in the accuracy of their
findings, but there is certainly room for academic assistance where it does
not seek to only jump on the band wagon. The problem I fear is that
academics are interested in proving originality, which makes finding out the
truth more difficult, because it makes true open cooperation more difficult.

Best Regards
Andrew Lancaster
clan MacLea/Livingston DNA project
Lancaster surname DNA project

-----Original Message-----
From: Renia [mailto:nowhere@nowhere.com]
Sent: Tuesday, 28 November 2006 12:31 PM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Clan's' blood needed for survey


Strange, all this talk of Border Reivers lately:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/6189776.stm

QUOTE

If you are an Armstrong, Elliot or Nixon you might be able to help
scientists with a new project.
A team from Newcastle University is looking for people with "Border
Reiver" surnames to donate blood to find out if names signal genetic
make-up.

John Brandon

Re: Was Regicide John1 Dixwell a son of William Dixwell, or

Legg inn av John Brandon » 30 nov 2006 20:24:17

I am not sure of what the last instituted 11 May, 44 Eliz.[1602] means.
Does this mean there is a record in theNational Archives?

"Instituted" means installed as rector, I guess. Don't know if there
would be anything on Access to Archives (I suspect not). Mr. Callender
must have written a wrong date in one of the places--1602 or 1604.
"Instituted 1604 p.m. Hancock" may mean something like "Insituted in
1604 per mortem Hancock" [any Latin scholars out there?]--in other
words, he came to his position as rector "on/ by the death" of Hancock,
the previous rector.

I think there is something a little unusual with the son Henry. Notice
how the Ponteland parish register is careful to state that son James/
Jacobus was "filius primus Edwardi Dixwell" [first son of Edward
Dixwell]. The Warwickshire Visitation also gives Edward's son as
"Jacobus fil. et haeres. aetat. 13, 1619." The normal interpretation
of this is that James was the eldest son (if not the only son).

(p. 297)
http://books.google.com/books?vid=OCLC0 ... well+coton

Yet it seems clear that Henry Dixwell was another son of Edward of
Ponteland, and somewhat older--of an age to enter Gray's Inn in 1622.

I'm guessing that Henry may have been an illegitimate son born before
Edward was in holy orders. This possible "scandal" may explain
Edward's removal to remote Northumberland.

Very interesting family!

Gjest

Re: Was Regicide John1 Dixwell a son of William Dixwell, or

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 nov 2006 21:01:02

Very interesting John.
I wondered about the son, Henry but could find nothing except the
admission to Gray's Inn.
Edward's mother is Abigail [Herdson]DIXWELL and her father is Henry
HERDSON, Alderman of London ,and one of the founders of the Muscovy
Company. Looks like Henry was named for his grandfather.

John Brandon wrote:
I am not sure of what the last instituted 11 May, 44 Eliz.[1602] means.
Does this mean there is a record in theNational Archives?

"Instituted" means installed as rector, I guess. Don't know if there
would be anything on Access to Archives (I suspect not). Mr. Callender
must have written a wrong date in one of the places--1602 or 1604.
"Instituted 1604 p.m. Hancock" may mean something like "Insituted in
1604 per mortem Hancock" [any Latin scholars out there?]--in other
words, he came to his position as rector "on/ by the death" of Hancock,
the previous rector.

I think there is something a little unusual with the son Henry. Notice
how the Ponteland parish register is careful to state that son James/
Jacobus was "filius primus Edwardi Dixwell" [first son of Edward
Dixwell]. The Warwickshire Visitation also gives Edward's son as
"Jacobus fil. et haeres. aetat. 13, 1619." The normal interpretation
of this is that James was the eldest son (if not the only son).

(p. 297)
http://books.google.com/books?vid=OCLC0 ... well+coton

Yet it seems clear that Henry Dixwell was another son of Edward of
Ponteland, and somewhat older--of an age to enter Gray's Inn in 1622.

I'm guessing that Henry may have been an illegitimate son born before
Edward was in holy orders. This possible "scandal" may explain
Edward's removal to remote Northumberland.

Very interesting family!

John Brandon

Re: Was Regicide John1 Dixwell a son of William Dixwell, or

Legg inn av John Brandon » 30 nov 2006 21:11:37

Edward's mother is Abigail [Herdson]DIXWELL and her father is Henry
HERDSON, Alderman of London ,and one of the founders of the Muscovy
Company. Looks like Henry was named for his grandfather.

That seems likely.

Although thinking about it, I wonder if there was another Edward
Dixwell living at Ponteland who was a cousin of the minister?

gryphon801@aol.com

Re: Was Regicide John1 Dixwell a son of William Dixwell, or

Legg inn av gryphon801@aol.com » 30 nov 2006 21:13:07

In looking at the Visitation of Warwick (HS 12:41) we have the
following:

1. William Dixwell of Bedfordshire = Margaret, daughter and heir of
Adam Sampson of Coton, Warwicks.
2. William Dixwell = Alice Mychell, daughter and heir of William.
3, John Dixwell = MARY GREY, of Enville, Staffordshire.
4. William Dixwell = Elizabeth Knight, daughter of John, of Brockholme.
5. Charles Dixwell = Abigail Herdson
6. William Dixwell.

Edward would, of course, be son of Charles and Abigail. Abigail was
daughter of Henry Herdson, Master of the Skinners' Company and Alderman
of London, died 1555, PCC 38 More.

If this holds, then there should be descents from Henry II and quite a
few from Geoffrey Plantagenet.
Mary Grey was daughter of Humphrey Grey by Anne Fielding.
Humphrey Grey was son of Robert Grey and Eleanor Lowe.
Robert Grey was son of Reginald Grey of Ruthin by Joan Astley, etc.

One wonders why certain people studying Plantagenet descents were not
already aware of this line.



mep33@sbcglobal.net wrote:
One further record - the Visitation of Kent MDCLXIII:
The Visitiation of Kent 1663-1668
DIXWELL
Edward DIXWELL of Coton in co. Warw. = Mary, da. of ---- HAWKSWORTH
under this Mark DIXWELL of Brome in Com. Kent = Eliz{da. of Mathew READ
of Folkstone AR
Under Mark
Sr Basill DIXWELL of Brome, Bart.1663 = Dorothy, da. of Sr Tho.
PAYTON of Knowlton Bart
and under this Elizabeth

FINALLY a record showing Edward DIXWELL as the father of Mark. Note
John is conspicuously missing. Elizabeth READE ,Mark & John's mother
married in 1659 Sir Henry OXENDEN and the family was "ignoring any
relationship to Col. John DIXWELL. John DIXWELL " persona non grata "in
his own family except for his niece Elizabeth [Dixwell] WESTROWE,
daughter of Mark DIXWELL.
Another small piece to help find the "real father" of John DIXWELL

Marge Perry

mep33@sbcglobal.net



mep33@sbcglobal.net wrote:
WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
It's useful to have the list of children of Mark Dixwell, thanks for that.

Interesting that only Bennet was evidently baptised *at* Barham, Kent 1639
(Batch C041635 Barham, Kent)

The other children all baptised at Folkestone, Kent were (Batch P020721
Parish Registers of Folkestone, Kent):

Elizabeth bap 29 Dec 1636
Alice bap 2 Mar 1638
Basil bap 24 Jun 1640
Heardson bap 15 Aug 1641
William bap 31 Dec 1642


Will Johnson


It appears for several reasons that Edward DIXWELL is the father of
John the regicide.
First is the will of William DIXWELL:
Documents on line
Will of William DIXWELL of Coton Warwickshire 9 July 1639
PROB 11/180
Image ref 626/572 4 pages

Will mentions loving wife, Elizabeth [Brent], daughters, Mary,
Elizabeth & Katherine DIXWELL ; loving brothers , Sir Basil & Humphrey
DIXWELL, Charles DIXWELL one of the sons of my brother Edward,
deceased; & my loving sister, Barbara. Also his sons William and Brent.
NO WHERE in this will is there a son named John.

Secondly-
The " Oxford Dictionary of National Biography" reads:[John] DIXWELL was
living at Folkestone when he was admitted to Lincoln's Inn in 1631"
!!!!

admission 3 February 1631 confirmed by Jo HUTCHINGS archivist Lincoln's
Inn. Called to the bar there 30 Jan. 1638.
Brother Mark admitted to Lincoln's Inn 27 Jan 1629 but was not called
to the bar there

Rachel LATHROP in her report, " Descendants of John DIXWELL"
Folkestone, England states"
[John] settled in Kent, of Folkestone parish AFTER his father's death,
lived with his uncle, Sir Basil DIXWELL, of a prominent Kent gentry
family."

My recent findings on Edward DIXWELL are:
The Register of the University of Oxford 1571-1622 Vol.II" p. 198
1st column date of entry in Matriculation register & subscription
book- 25 Jan. 1593
2nd column- name of college or hall- Bras.
3rd column name of student- Edward DYXWELL[ DIXWELL]
4th column county where student born- Warwickshire
5th column quality or social standing & age of student of father- f.
[filius] son pleb.[ commoner] age 18 meaning he was born about 1575.

From the archivist Brasenose college:
According to the 'Register' Edward Dixwell/Dyxwell was born in
Warwickshire and matriculated (the formal ceremony of admittance as a
member of the University) on 25 January 1593/4 (1594 by modern
reckoning), aged eighteen. However, Foster gives his matriculation date
as 23 November 1593. I have not been able to identify which is the
correct date, but the University Archives (http://www.oua.ox.ac.uk) may
be able to help. At matriculation his status was given as 'plebeius
filius', son of a common man, that is one with no particular social
standing (not one reckoned as a nobleman, 'esquire' or gentleman, and
not a clergyman). He did not remain at Brasenose, as his B.A. was
awarded from Merton College on 17 October 1597 and his M.A. from St.
Alban Hall (owned by Merton) on 16 July 1600. There may be further
information in the archives at Merton College
We have an annotated edition of the 'Register' which belonged to an
amateur genealogist, but I do not know what his sources were and cannot
testify as to their accuracy. The annotations record that Edward was
the son of Charles Dixwell, and that he attended Eton College. Foster
records that he was vicar of Ponteland, Northumberland in 1602.
I hope that this will be of interest to you.
Yours sincerely
Elizabeth Boardman

From the archivist Merton College:
Thank you for your enquiry concerning Edward Dixwell, although I regret
I can add very little if anything to what the archivist at Brasenose
has been able to tell you. Merton College has few records relating to
its students before the middle of the seventeenth century. What
information is known about earlier students is largely drawn from the
records of matriculations and graduations kept by the University; it is
one of the peculiarities of Oxford and Cambridge that students lived
and studied together in a college but their degrees were (and still
are) awarded by the University.

I imagine that the information you were given came from Joseph Foster's
Alumni Oxonienses, the published biographical register of members of
the University to c.1880, which draws heavily on the matriculation and
graduation records. I note from Foster that Edward Dixwell was Vicar
of Ponteland in Northumberland in 1602 (it is not clear from Foster
whether Dixwell was appointed then or was recorded in post by that
date). You may be interested to know, at least, that Merton College
has the right to appoint the Vicar of Ponteland, so it is possible that
Dixwell secured his appointment by having been a member of the college.
I have checked the minutes of Governing Body meetings, which normally
record such appointments, for the period 1599-1602 but without success.
Unfortunately, there is a gap in the minutes for the period April
1601-February 1602.

I hope this information, albeit limited, will be of interest.

Yours sincerely

Julian Reid

Archivist
Merton College
University of Oxford

From the Los Angeles Public Library:
"I have checked the "Eton College Register 1441-1698" & did locate the
individual about whom you are inquiring. His name is listed under the
DYXWELL spelling & most of the information about his schooling &
matriculation dates is correct. He was commensal at the third table &
K.S.[ King's Scholar] after 1588. He was 18 years old when he
matruiculated from Brasenose College on Nov. 23, 1593. He was the 2nd
son, his father was from Coton, in the county of Warwick and his
mother, Abigail, was the daughter of Henry [?] HERDSON, alderman of
London. In 1602 Edward DYXWELL was vicar of Ponteland in the county of
Northumberland. He was married to [ first name not listed], daughter of
[ first name also not listed] HAUKESWORTH.
Thank you fot contacting the Los Angeles Public Library.

IGI Ponteland Northumbria
POO4411 show the following children born to a Eduuard DIXWELL /DYXWELL
Marcus b. 18 Feb 1609 b+ 26 Feb 1609

****Johannes b. 21 March 1613 b+ 6 Apr 1613

Jacobus b 13 Jan 1605 b+23 Jan 1605-

Charolus b. 20 Mar 1615 b+ same day

Anna b. 14 May 1607 b+ 26 May 1607

Abigail b. 6 Mar 1611 b+ 7 Apr 1611

One record from the Quarter session Northumberland:
NORTHUMBERLAND QUARTER SESSIONS
Catalogue Ref. Q


The Court in Session

Quarter Sessions Indictments - ref. QSI

FILE [no title] - ref. QSI/1 - date: 1584-1630
item: [no title] - ref. QSI/1, f102r (498) - date: 2 September 8 James
I 1610
{PRIVATE "TYPE=PICT;ALT=hit"}[from Scope and Content] Presentment:
Ellinora Hindmers, Isabell Jefferson, and Barbara Howey of Ponteland,
spinsters; at Ponteland, watered hemp in a river called the Ponte in
which beasts were wont to drink, and they are to forfeit 20s., to the
king.; And George Atkinson of Ponteland, labourer Elenore Hindmers, and
Isabella Jefferson; afterwards on 3 September watered hemp and must
forfeit 20s.; And Edward Dixwell of Ponteland, clerk; Maria Dixwell,
his wife; George Atkyngson, Edward Tompson, Elynore Hyndmers, Isabell
Jefferson and Barbara Howey; watered hemp after 3 September and must
forfeit 20s
Note_ "Edward DIXWELL of Ponteland, CLERK! [clerk for whom?]

I am unable to find a marriage or his date and place of death. Unable
to locate a will.
Woodhorn Archives has the Ponteland parish registers which I believe
start in 1602. I cannot visit that facility & the fee for a researcher
at Woodhorn is 25 pounds for the 1st hour.
I contacted St Mary the Virgin Church Ponteland and was told the
registers had been transferred to Woodhorn. Perhaps someone with more
expertise can locate and check the parish registers for Ponteland.

I do strongly believe that Edward is the father of John DIXWELL.

Marge Perry

CE Wood

Re: Parentage of Maud de Vitré, wife of Henry de Pomeroy

Legg inn av CE Wood » 01 des 2006 04:48:31

Unfortunately, I do not have access to the articles to which you
referred.

Thank you for posting the descent from Jim Weber's site. He mentions
this problem of consanguinity also.

I believe that posting this obviously (without dispensations) incorrect
descent is a disservice, without mentioning that how severely it is
flawed.

Does anyone have further accessible information on this problematic
Meriet ascent?

CE Wood

Douglas Richardson wrote:
Dear Carolyn ~

Thank you for your good post. Much appreciated.

There is a well researched article on the Meriet family in Somerset
Archaeological & Natural History Society, volume 28. There is also a
lawsuit concerning the Pomeroy-Daumarle connection in old issues of The
Genealogist (British publication).

Since you mentioned Jim Weber's great database, I thought I'd post his
version of the Vitré-Bonville descent below, as found in his database
at the following weblink:

http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bi ... &id=I18314

1 Maud de Vitre b: ABT 1146 d: BEF 1193
+ Henry II de Pomeroy, of Berry Pomeroy, Sir b: BEF 1146 d: AFT 1193
2 Henry III de Pomeroy, of Berry Pomeroy, Sir b: ABT 1168 d: 1207
+ Alice de Vernon b: ABT 1168 d: 1206
3 Henry IV de Pomeroy, of Berry Pomeroy, b: ABT 1192 d: 1220
+ Joan de Valletort b: ABT 1197 d: AFT 1275
4 Henry V de Pomeroy, of Berry Pomeroy, b: ABT 1220 d: 12
JUL 1281
+ Isolde de Pyn b: ABT 1245 d: 1311
5 Joan de Pomeroy b: ABT 1268
+ Geoffrey d' Aumerle, b: ABT 1266 d: ABT 1321
6 William d' Aumerle, b: ABT 1295 d: 1335
+ Isabel de Meriet b: ABT 1295
7 William Daumarle, b: ABT 1324 d: 1362
+ Agnes (Helen\Elen) de Meriet b: ABT 1325 d:
8 FEB 1362/63
8 Margaret Daumarle b: ABT 1347 d: 25 MAY
1399
+ William Bonville , of Shute, MP, Sir b:
ABT 1340 d: 14 FEB 1407/08
9 John Bonville , of Shute, Sir b: ABT
1371 d: 21 OCT 1396
+ Elizabeth Fitz Roger , Heiress of
Chewton d: 15 APR 1414
10 William 1st Baron Bonville , of
Chewton, KG, Sir b: 13 AUG 1393 d: 18 FEB 1460/61
+ Margaret Grey b: 1395 d: AFT 15
MAY 1426
+ Elizabeth de Courtenay b: ABT
1385 d: 18 OCT 1471

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Douglas Richardson

Re: Parentage of Maud de Vitré, wife of Henry de Pomeroy

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 01 des 2006 08:29:47

Dear Carolyn ~

I believe if you consult the sources that I've provided you, that your
confusion about the Daumarle and Meriet families will be greatly
alleviated. Possibly you can obtain the suggested items on
interlibrary loan. For the time being, you might wish to review the
Meriet-Daumarle descent copied below which is taken from the following
website:

http://awt.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi ... 23&ti=5538

The descent below is a slightly different version than what appears in
Jim Weber and Holly Forrest Tamer's databases. It only gives one
Meriet-Daumarle marriage, thus removing the consanguinity problem about
which you asked.

If wishes were fishes, then our genealogical problems would be
nonexistent.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

+ + + + + + + + + +

Ancestral Tree by Andrew

Generation No. 1

1. Agatha. She married **Nicholas de Meriet, son of **Henry de Meriet.
He was born ABT 1165 in Merriott, Somersetshire, England, and died
1229.

Generation No. 2

2. **Hugh de Meriet (Agatha1) was born ABT 1190 in Merriott,
Somersetshire, England, and died 8 APR 1236.

Generation No. 3

3. **Nicholas de Meriet (**Hugh de Meriet2, Agatha1) was born ABT 1215
in Merriott, Somersetshire, England, and died ABT 1258. He married
Elizabeth.

Generation No. 4

4. **John I de Meriet (**Nicholas de Meriet3, **Hugh de Meriet2,
Agatha1) was born ABT 1240 in Merriott, Somersetshire, England, and
died 20 MAR 1284. He married Ela.

Generation No. 5

5. **John II de Meriet (**John I de Meriet4, **Nicholas de Meriet3,
**Hugh de Meriet2, Agatha1) was born ABT 1265 in Merriott,
Somersetshire, England, and died 1308. He married Margery.

Children of **John II de Meriet and Margery are:
+ 6 i. **Isabel de Meriet.
ii. **George Meriet was born 1290 in Merriott,
Somersetshire, England, and died 1328.

Generation No. 6

6. **Isabel de Meriet (**John II de Meriet5, **John I de Meriet4,
**Nicholas de Meriet3, **Hugh de Meriet2, Agatha1). She married
**William D'Aumarle, son of **Geoffrey D'Aumarle and **Joan de Pomeroy.
He was born ABT 1300 in Alba Marle, Devonshire, England, and died ABT
1325.

Peter Stewart

Re: Parentage of Maud de Vitré, wife of Henry de Pomeroy

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 01 des 2006 09:05:04

"Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1164958187.285336.250700@16g2000cwy.googlegroups.com...
Dear Carolyn ~

I believe if you consult the sources that I've provided you, that your
confusion about the Daumarle and Meriet families will be greatly
alleviated. Possibly you can obtain the suggested items on
interlibrary loan. For the time being, you might wish to review the
Meriet-Daumarle descent copied below which is taken from the following
website:

http://awt.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi ... 23&ti=5538

The descent below is a slightly different version than what appears in
Jim Weber and Holly Forrest Tamer's databases. It only gives one
Meriet-Daumarle marriage, thus removing the consanguinity problem about
which you asked.

If wishes were fishes, then our genealogical problems would be
nonexistent.

This latest internet offering from Richardson compromises his pretended
standards yet again - not only does it lack source references, but it
purports to know exactly where (although only approximately when)
individuals were born. If wishes were fishes, these "facts" would be spoiled
& unsafe to digest.

Why does a "professional" genealogist spend time seeking out such amateur
effusions in the first place, much less touting to them to others who share
an interest in this forum?

Useless, of course, but I suppose it is not more futile than his laborious
"research" into known relationships, or his erratic fossicking for kinship
statements before and after 1250 - or is it 1225?

Peter Stewart

wjhonson

Re: Alice Plantagenet married Thomas Musgrave

Legg inn av wjhonson » 02 des 2006 00:44:25

An alert reader has forwarded me the proof that this connection is
flawed but in a rather interesting way. There was an "Alice", but it's
quite possible she was not the *wife* but rather the *grandmother* of
the Thomas that tudorplace has her attached to.

The two documents below, show that the Thomas who married, and left a
WIDOW Alice flourished at least one if not *two* generations before
that Thomas who by his wife called "Mary (not JOAN) Stapleton" by
Stirnet had a son Richard b "abt 1431" who married Joan Clifford
daughter of Thomas the 8th Lord Clifford by Joan Dacre.

Interesting that this might extend the info I had on the Musgrave's by
another, just prior, generation.

Will Johnson
--------------------------------
1.quitclam-ref. D MUS 2/10/17-date 20 May 1356; Thomas de Musgrave
knight,
of all rights in the manors of Crosby Gerard, Little Musgrave and
Soulby,
land in Kirby Stephen and the advowson of Crosby Gerard.

2. ref D Mus 2/10/42 date-26 March 1411; Alice widow of Sir Thomas de
Musgrave, land in Crosby Gerrard, Little Musgrave, Wharton, Nateby,
Sleagill
and Soulby for her life on condition she enfeoff Sir Thomas de Tunstall
and
Richard de Musgrave for 20 lb rent
---------------------------------------------------


mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
WJhonson wrote:
The discrepancy was brought to my attention by an alert
reader of the archives where some time past, I called "Thomas Musgrave" a
[relative] nobody, at least in relation to the fact that his son Richard married
into the family of the Lords Clifford.

That person was bolstering him by claiming he married into the Plantagenets
and that Richard Musgrave had a Plantagenet mother. So I went looking for the
support for this.

I think these Musgraves have their descent sketched out in CP, as one
was summoned to Parliament in the 14th C. Thomas did marry Joan
Stapleton- Patricia Junkin may be able to tell you more, as Joan's
mother was a Vipont. Thomas Musgrave probably had a bit of royal
ancestry via an ancestor who married a Ros, hence descent from William
the Lion et al., but I've seen the exact descent given in different
ways and am not sure which is correct.

-Matthew

CE Wood

Re: Parentage of Maud de Vitré, wife of Henry de Pomeroy

Legg inn av CE Wood » 02 des 2006 02:00:50

Thanks again, Douglas, for your most helpful assistance.

CE Wood

Douglas Richardson wrote:
Dear Carolyn ~

I believe if you consult the sources that I've provided you, that your
confusion about the Daumarle and Meriet families will be greatly
alleviated. Possibly you can obtain the suggested items on
interlibrary loan. For the time being, you might wish to review the
Meriet-Daumarle descent copied below which is taken from the following
website:

http://awt.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi ... 23&ti=5538

The descent below is a slightly different version than what appears in
Jim Weber and Holly Forrest Tamer's databases. It only gives one
Meriet-Daumarle marriage, thus removing the consanguinity problem about
which you asked.

If wishes were fishes, then our genealogical problems would be
nonexistent.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

+ + + + + + + + + +

Ancestral Tree by Andrew

Generation No. 1

1. Agatha. She married **Nicholas de Meriet, son of **Henry de Meriet.
He was born ABT 1165 in Merriott, Somersetshire, England, and died
1229.

Generation No. 2

2. **Hugh de Meriet (Agatha1) was born ABT 1190 in Merriott,
Somersetshire, England, and died 8 APR 1236.

Generation No. 3

3. **Nicholas de Meriet (**Hugh de Meriet2, Agatha1) was born ABT 1215
in Merriott, Somersetshire, England, and died ABT 1258. He married
Elizabeth.

Generation No. 4

4. **John I de Meriet (**Nicholas de Meriet3, **Hugh de Meriet2,
Agatha1) was born ABT 1240 in Merriott, Somersetshire, England, and
died 20 MAR 1284. He married Ela.

Generation No. 5

5. **John II de Meriet (**John I de Meriet4, **Nicholas de Meriet3,
**Hugh de Meriet2, Agatha1) was born ABT 1265 in Merriott,
Somersetshire, England, and died 1308. He married Margery.

Children of **John II de Meriet and Margery are:
+ 6 i. **Isabel de Meriet.
ii. **George Meriet was born 1290 in Merriott,
Somersetshire, England, and died 1328.

Generation No. 6

6. **Isabel de Meriet (**John II de Meriet5, **John I de Meriet4,
**Nicholas de Meriet3, **Hugh de Meriet2, Agatha1). She married
**William D'Aumarle, son of **Geoffrey D'Aumarle and **Joan de Pomeroy.
He was born ABT 1300 in Alba Marle, Devonshire, England, and died ABT
1325.

CE Wood

Re: Parentage of Maud de Vitré, wife of Henry de Pomeroy

Legg inn av CE Wood » 02 des 2006 02:16:49

Thanks Douglas.

However, the site you referenced also has the same problem: George
Meriet's daughter, Elen/Agnes, marries his sister Isabel's son,
William.

Your descent below leaves off at the crucial generation.

CE Wood


Douglas Richardson wrote:
Dear Carolyn ~

I believe if you consult the sources that I've provided you, that your
confusion about the Daumarle and Meriet families will be greatly
alleviated. Possibly you can obtain the suggested items on
interlibrary loan. For the time being, you might wish to review the
Meriet-Daumarle descent copied below which is taken from the following
website:

http://awt.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi ... 23&ti=5538

The descent below is a slightly different version than what appears in
Jim Weber and Holly Forrest Tamer's databases. It only gives one
Meriet-Daumarle marriage, thus removing the consanguinity problem about
which you asked.

If wishes were fishes, then our genealogical problems would be
nonexistent.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

+ + + + + + + + + +

Ancestral Tree by Andrew

Generation No. 1

1. Agatha. She married **Nicholas de Meriet, son of **Henry de Meriet.
He was born ABT 1165 in Merriott, Somersetshire, England, and died
1229.

Generation No. 2

2. **Hugh de Meriet (Agatha1) was born ABT 1190 in Merriott,
Somersetshire, England, and died 8 APR 1236.

Generation No. 3

3. **Nicholas de Meriet (**Hugh de Meriet2, Agatha1) was born ABT 1215
in Merriott, Somersetshire, England, and died ABT 1258. He married
Elizabeth.

Generation No. 4

4. **John I de Meriet (**Nicholas de Meriet3, **Hugh de Meriet2,
Agatha1) was born ABT 1240 in Merriott, Somersetshire, England, and
died 20 MAR 1284. He married Ela.

Generation No. 5

5. **John II de Meriet (**John I de Meriet4, **Nicholas de Meriet3,
**Hugh de Meriet2, Agatha1) was born ABT 1265 in Merriott,
Somersetshire, England, and died 1308. He married Margery.

Children of **John II de Meriet and Margery are:
+ 6 i. **Isabel de Meriet.
ii. **George Meriet was born 1290 in Merriott,
Somersetshire, England, and died 1328.

Generation No. 6

6. **Isabel de Meriet (**John II de Meriet5, **John I de Meriet4,
**Nicholas de Meriet3, **Hugh de Meriet2, Agatha1). She married
**William D'Aumarle, son of **Geoffrey D'Aumarle and **Joan de Pomeroy.
He was born ABT 1300 in Alba Marle, Devonshire, England, and died ABT
1325.

Andrew and Inge

RE: Elftred 'the Englishman' - ancestor of the Curwens ofWor

Legg inn av Andrew and Inge » 02 des 2006 12:48:58

Dear Todd

Upon reflection, I note that the original post I am asking about did give a
reference to a webpage which at least reminds me more clearly about what the
claim was which I am asking about the basis of:

http://www.electricscotland.com/webclan ... ey/110.htm

"The sons of Bethoc and Crinan were King Duncan I of Albany (killed in
1040), whose descendants bore arms of the colors red on gold; and Maldred,
Ruler of Cumbria, who married the daughter of the Earl of Beornicia, and
whose descendants bore arms of the colors red on silver (white). From
Maldred's son Gospatric, Earl of Beornicia (which passed from English to
Scottish control during his tenture, and whose original Saxon House is
represented in the male line by the Swintons of that Ilk), are descended the
families of Dunbar, Dundas and Moncreiff."

So is it being claimed that Swintons, Dunbar, Dundas and Moncreiff had/have
arms like those of the de Lancasters? (Argent, two bars and a canton gules.)
A quick browse around the internet finds only one of these arms even had the
right colour pattern? See for example
http://www.motherbedford.com/ScottishClans.htm

Best Rgards
Andrew

-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew and Inge [mailto:andrew.en.inge@skynet.be]
Sent: Sunday, 19 November 2006 10:04 AM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: RE: Elftred 'the Englishman' - ancestor of the Curwens
ofWorkington&de Lancasters of Kendal


Right. I am in fact uncertain what sort of evidence is being referred to.

Andrew

-----Original Message-----
From: taf [mailto:farmerie@interfold.com]
Sent: Sunday, 19 November 2006 2:38 AM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Elftred 'the Englishman' - ancestor of the Curwens
ofWorkington&de Lancasters of Kendal



Andrew and Inge wrote:
Thank you Alex

My mail took a long time to hit the list and the meantime I have found
some
more. William Fitz Duncan and one of the Maldreds (which one?) are both
claimed by various people to have had arms which influenced the "de
Lancaster" arms as well as those of some other northern families.

I would be careful of this claim. These men date to a period just when
heraldry was emerging, and few had documented arms, in spite of
anachronistic claims to the contrary.

taf

Turenne

Re: Gilbert the father of the first de Lancaster of Kendal

Legg inn av Turenne » 02 des 2006 18:21:10

Andrew and Inge wrote:
I wonder if anyone can add or subtract anything from the following musing...

The first person who we know used the name "de Lancaster," at least in a way
which stuck to the family, was William de Lancaster I of the de Lancasters
of Kendal.

He is frequently referred to as "Fitz Gilbert" and the like in contemporary
documents, but despite references to this Gilbert in *secondary* and
non-contemporary literature, for example:
- that he was called "de Furnesio"
- that he was the King's receiver in Furness
- that he had another son Roger fitz Gilbert who married Sigrid the widow of
Waldeve of Allerdale
- that there was yet another son, Robert, brother of this Roger
- that he was a member of the family of Eldred of Workington and his son
Ketel
- that he was a "de Taillebois"

...I can not find any evidence for any contemporary information about him.
(Perhaps the best I can do is, just concerning the last two, refer to the
claims of his descendents concerning the de Lancasters being somehow
descended from "Ketel filius Eutret" and de Taillebois. I think everyone who
looks at the evidence tends to think that if there was a connection it must
have been via widows, illegitimate children or daughters, and therefore
difficult to trace.)

Can anyone name any primary evidence at all concerning Gilbert?

While I remain in this ignorant state perhaps I'll make a few wild
speculative suggestions also, for people to shoot down:

1. If Gilbert used the name "de Furnesio" why not just not assume that he
was a "le Fleming" of Furness? They were using this name right at this
period, and there can't have been too many people living in the area at the
time, let alone using this title.

2. What stops us from suggesting that "fitz Gilbert" was not an early
"surname"? Indeed there was a very famous fitzGilbert family, a branch of
which became the de Clares. For example, William I de Lancastre married an
important member of the family of Richard fitz Gilbert's contemporary fellow
power-broker William de Warrene. It is often remarked that he must have been
well-connected.

3. There were also some fitzGilberts who worked for Mathilda. I understand
that John, her marshall, was a brother of William, was a knight who fought
for her, and then her chancellor. Or were these FitzGilberts of the same
family as Richard?

Best Regards
Andrew

The house of Hamilton was represented from 1294-95 to about 1346 by
Walter FitzGilbert, the father of David who was correctly styled Sir
David Fitz Walter Fitz Gilbert. Sir David's son was referred to by his
territorial title, David de Hamilton.The name Hamilton is likely to be
derived from several places in England called Hambleton in Yorks, Bucks
or Lancs.

Richard Lichten

Gjest

Re: Thomas Stanton d 1677 Stonington

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 des 2006 18:44:20

I just read this interesting posting and its responses.

The entire question was revisited in the January 2006 TAG: Eugene Cole
Zubrinski, "Thomas1 Stanton of Connecticut and the Longbridge
Connection," pp. 48-51.

Zubrinski shows that the 1937 TAG article by Clarence Almon Torrey was
entirely correct: The immigrant cannot be a son of Thomas and Katherine
(Washington) Stanton of Wolverston, Warwickshire. He discusses at
length the "new evidence" presented by the Stanton Family Association
and shows that it is either misinterpretated or non-existent.

For this reason, TAG ran an editorial in the same January issue.
Although it is unsigned, it is by me.

"GENEALOGICAL HYPOTHESES-REVISITED. In the October editorial, we
discussed the fact that eliminating negative evidence does not
necessarily mean that a hypothesis is correct, although many are fooled
into thinking so. Gene Zubrinsky's fine article on Thomas1 Stanton in
the current issue provides another example, with the further
complication that the negative evidence was not eliminated after all.
It is clear that the people in the Stanton Family Association thought
that if they could demonstrate that the gentry couple that they hoped
they descended from had two [living] sons with the name Thomas (not an
impossibility during this period), the removal of the negative evidence
would prove the hypothesis. In fact, all it would have done was show
that the hypothesis was possible-but still far from proven. Now we
know that the negative evidence remains and that the Connecticut
immigrant could not have had this origin.
"Family associations often do very valuable work, but they need to
have knowledgeable and critical genealogists evaluating all
conclusions, without yielding to wishful thinking. . . ."

DAVID L. GREENE, FASG
Coeditor and publisher
The American Genealogist [TAG]


On Nov 29, 7:23 pm, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:
Thomas Stanton died 2 Dec 1677 at Stonington, Connecticut
He married Ann Lord d/o Dr Thomas Lord by Dorothy Bird about 1637 and had a
number of chidren

In the past, this Thomas Stanton has been equated with that Thomas who, in
the Visitation of Warwick was "3 years old (or in his third year)" when the
Visitation was taken in 1619.

There is an article in TAG evidently in 1937 which disputes this
identification.

This page howeverhttp://www.ultimatefamilyreunion ... 744279.htm
referencing the history of the argument, now states that the identification
has again been restored.

They quote the "Stanton Family Newsletter" where an article quotes memorials
from the walls of the church at Wolverton

The gist of the argument is that Thomas Stanton the "Lord of the Manor" by
this they mean Wolverton, was born in 1621 and died in 1664. The visitation was
taken in 1619 and therefore they claim there were two sons named Thomas, with
the one born in 1621 being the one who took over at Wolverton.

If that is the sum of the argument I don't find it convincing.

It would imply, for some unstated reason, that the heir left his estate,
presumably without renumeration to proceed to the New World where he waited some
time before establishing himself in any way (i.e. his own estate).

The other problem with this identification is that some Thomas Stanton was a
"magistrate" by 1635/7.
The baptism record for Thomas Staton is 4 May 1617 at Wolverton
(http://www.familysearch.org- IGI - British Isles - Batch C024881 "Bishop's transcripts 1614-1877
Parish Church of Wolverton" quoting "Thomas Stanton bap 4 May 1617 Wolverton,
son of Thomas Stanton and Katherine")

There is almost no chance that this is a different Thomas than the one in the
Visitations. So "at 3" would mean "in his third year" as opposed to "being
already 3 and more". He is 17 at his entry to Oxford in 1634 which accords
with this birthyear.

However being a magistrate at the age of 18 to 20 does *not* accord with this
identification.

Which is unfortunate as he is my own direct ancestor ;)
I have found A2A records which show an unbroken line of Stanfords at
Wolverton until at least 1700, and the presence of a Thomas in this time period as
well.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Thomas Stanton d 1677 Stonington

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 des 2006 19:55:03

One thing I found interesting is that although there is a baptismal entry
for the Thomas b 1617, and subsequent entries for this church, there is no entry
for a Thomas b 1621 at this church.

Svar

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