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Gjest

Re: Sir Walter Stewart 3rd High Steward of Scotland

Legg inn av Gjest » 31 okt 2006 04:18:38

Dear Will,
Gilchrist who succeeded Morgrund as Earl of Mar doesn`t
appear to have been a son of Morgrund`s wife Agnes as Malcolm, James and Duncan
were (and Alesta their sister was her daughter). We don`t know if Gilchrist were
a son of Morgrund or a kinsman but He (Gilchrist) had a daughter who was
mother by Malcolm de Lundin of a son Thomas de Lundin the Doorward who claimed the
Earldom in oppostion to Duncan, son of Morgrund who became Earl. Thomas
Doorward (Durward)`s son Alan claimed it in oppostion to Duncan`s son William who
had married Elizabeth, daughter of William Comyn, Earl of Buchan. William was
awarded the Earldom which then passed from father to son Donald I,
Gratney/Gartnait, Donald II and Thomas, then his sister Margaret, wife of William Douglas,
Earl of Douglas, then to their son James, Earl of Douglas and Mar, then to
his sister Isabel who died without issue, then various Stewart princes, and
finally to Thomas Erskine of Erskine, a descendant of Gratney`s daughter Ellen.
Sincerely,
James W
Cummings
Dixmont,
Maine USA

Peter Stewart

Re: [REVISED POST] More Kinsfolk: Agnes, Countess of Braine'

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 31 okt 2006 09:05:25

"Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1162273714.846565.317650@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Dear Newsgroup ~

Often when seeking answers, it's sometimes necessary to widen the scope
of one's search. In this particular case, we're presently seeking to
determine the nature of the kinship which existed between Agnes de
Baudement, Countess of Braine (died 1204) and Blanche of Navarre, wife
of Thibaut, Count of Champagne. Both women have an enormous number
of modern descendants.

Searching through various French cartularies, I've come across yet
another kinsman of Countess Agnes, namely Hugues de Garlande, Bishop
of Orléans (died 1206). I find that Hugues, Bishop of Orléans, gave 20
sous of rent on the grange of Cravant in 1204 to Sainte-Croix of
Orléans to celebrate the anniversary of his cousin [consanguinea],
Agnes, Countess of Braine [Reference: Joseph Thillier and Eugène
Jarry, editors, Cartulaire de Sainte-Croix d'Orléans (814-1300)
(1906): 224]. Elsewhere, I note another charter dated 1201 in which
Bishop Hugues refers to a certain Manasse and Hugues as his nephews or
kinsmen [nepotibus] [Reference: Ibid., 210].

Manasses was his nephew, an archdeacon. Hugues may have been a brother or
perhaps a nephew of Manasses.

I presume that Bishop Hugues de Garlande is descended in some manner
from Guillaume de Garlande (died 1121), seigneur of Livry, Seneschal of
France, and his wife, Eustachie, allegedly daughter of Bouchard I de
Baudemont and his wife, Elizabeth de Crécy.

No, he wasn't - the bishop was a son of Guido, seigneur of Tournan by his
second wife, Helissende. Guido's father Gilbert was a younger brother of
Guillaume the seneschal.

For further particulars on the Garlande family, please see the following
weblink (which unfortunately doesn't mention Bishop Hugues de Garlande):

http://bondy-histoire.chez-alice.fr/Garlande.htm

Saints preserve us, another secondary source - remind us, doesn't that make
it a worthless & confusing distraction from your primary/contemporary source
mojo? Surely you would not tarnish the magic of your alleged scholarship
with such dross...

If this is Bishop Hugues de Garlande's' correct line of descent, it
would seem likely that he and Agnes de Baudemont, Countess of Braine,
are related by way of a common descent from the Baudemont family. This
matter deserves further study.

And it's all yours to do.

In a related vein, I've also found a charter issued by a certain
Anselme de Garlande in 1217 to the monks of Monstiers-en-Argonne"
for the repose of the soul of Renard de Dampierre his kinsman [cognat]."
[Reference: Éduoard de Barthélemy, Diocèse ancien de
Châlons-sur-Marne, histoire et monuments, 2 (1861): 432]. I presume
he is the same person as Anselme de Garlande, seigneur of Possesse,
whose charter dated 1215 names his father, Anselme [Reference: Ibid.].
The father is presumably the Anselme de Garlande, seigneur of Possesse,
who issued two charters in 1197 naming his wife, Sophie, Countess of
Chiny, and his son, Anselme [Reference: Ibid., 430]. I assume Renard
de Dampierre is the same person as Renard, Count of Dampierre, who
issued charter in 1203 [Reference: Ibid., pg. 431]. He may also be the
same person as Count Renard de Dampierre, son of Henry, whose undated
charter confirmed the gifts of his ancestors, Count Frédéric and
Henry "fils de celui-ci." [Reference: Ibid., 430].

That's a lot of unsupported assumptions for someone who considers
information given by Alberic of Troisfontaines to be "hasty guesswork".
Where to turn next in this erratic questing after chimeras, I wonder?

Peter Stewart

Brad Verity

Re: Eyre of Padley/Huddleston of Sawston

Legg inn av Brad Verity » 31 okt 2006 17:46:29

I posted the below yesterday through Google, but it never showed up in
my newsgroup mail list. If it did for everyone else, apologies for the
double post.

If anyone has access to the CIPM series for Henry VII, and can look up
the IPM of Roger Eyre of Padley (died November 1504), and see if a wife
for him is mentioned at all, I would very much appreciate it.

Thanks and Cheers, --------Brad


Brad Verity wrote:
Among the extensive pedigress of the Eyres presented in 'Familiae
Minorum Gentium' Vol. 2 (H.S.P. 38, 1895), is one of the Eyres of
Padley Hall, Derbyshire. On pp. 551-552, it states:

"Robert Eyre of Padley, Esq., Sher. derb. 22 Edw. IV.", son and heir of
Robert Eyre of Padley, Esq. & Elizabeth Fitzwilliam of Mablethorpe,
married "Elizabeth, dau. of Sir William Huddleston of Salston, co.
Camb., by Isabel, dau. of John Nevil, Marquis Montacute", and they had
the following issue:

A) "Sir Arthur Eyre of Padley, Knt" married 1st, "Margaret, 1st wife,
dau. of Sir Robert Plumpton of Plumpton, Knt."; married 2nd, "Alice,
2nd wife, dau. of Thomas Coffyn of Devonshire"; married 3rd, "Dor.,
dau. of Humph. Okeover of Okeover".
B) "John"
C) "Thomas"
D) "Margaret, wife of Robert Barley of Barley"
E) "Dorothy, wife of Alexr Nevile of South Liverton"
F) "Ann, wife of Thomas Barley of Dronfield Woodhouse"
G) "Mary, wife of Richard Draycot of Paynsley"

All of the above Eyre of Padley children and their issue would thus be
descendants of Edward III through Isabel Neville, wife of William
Huddleston of Sawston.

But a look into the chronology of the Eyres of Padley and Huddlestons
of Sawston throws a wrench into this descent.

William Huddleston, born about 1450, said to be the youngest (and was
at least the 3rd) son of Sir John Huddleston of Millom Castle,
Cumberland (c.1420 - 6 November 1493) & Mary Fenwick, married by 1486,
Isabel Neville, 5th & youngest daughter of John Nevill, Marquess
Montagu & Isabel Ingaldesthorpe. She brought a nice inheritance to the
marriage consisting of 12 manors, including 2 in Sawston,
Cambridgeshire. William died in 1511, and Isabel married 2nd, as his
2nd wife,Sir William Smyth, of Elford (d. 10 January 1526; buried St
Peter, Elford), and died 12 October 1516; buried St. Peter's church,
Elford. William and Isabel had two known sons:

A) John Huddleston, of Sawston, Cambridgeshire, born about 1489,
sheriff of Cambridgeshire and Huntingdonshire 1485, inherited Sawston
and other manors from his mother 1516; married 1516, Elizabeth Sutton,
daughter of Edward Sutton, 2nd Lord Dudley and Cecily Willoughby, and
died 16 October 1530, having had issue, 2 sons and 1 dau. His widow
Elizabeth married 2nd, as his second wife, Sir Thomas Boteler, of
Bewsey Hall, Lancashire, who died in 1542.

B) Richard Huddleston, of Elford, Staffordshire, born about 1490,
married by 1530, his step-sister Margery Smyth, daughter of Sir William
Smyth, of Elford, by his first wife Anne Staunton, and died 17 June
1557, having had issue 2 daughters.

If William Huddleston and Isabel Neville also had a daughter Elizabeth,
in addition to the above two sons, she would have had to have been born
in the 1480s or 1490s.

Robert Eyre of Padley, Derbyshire is featured in the Plumpton
Correspondence, as his son and heir Arthur married, by 4 August 1500,
Margaret, one of the daughters of Sir Robert Plumpton of Plumpton
(c.1453-1523). Robert Eyre died 13 November 1504, when his son Arthur
Eyre was found to be age 23, so born about 1481.

It is thus impossible for William Huddleston & Isabel Neville, who were
married in the 1480s, to have a grandson born in 1481.

So who was the wife of Roger Eyre of Padley and mother of all of his
above children? A website on Padley Chapel appears to provide the
answer:

http://www.wishful-thinking.org.uk/genu ... apel4.html

The wife of Roger Eyre and mother of Arthur Eyre is identified as
Cecily Wortley of Derby.

But how and why did an Elizabeth Huddleston of Sawston replace Cecily
Wortley in the Eyre of Padley pedigree? How did the descendants get so
confused, as there doesn't seem to be any other connection between the
two families? There is no easy answer, but a few scenarios come to
mind:

1) After Cecily Wortley's death, Roger Eyre married Elizabeth
Huddleston as his second wife. This still has problems
chronologically. Even if Elizabeth was older than her two brothers,
the earliest she could have been born is the mid-1480s. Though it was
not unusual for a man to take a second wife who was a full generation
younger than him, Roger's death in 1504 would mean that Elizabeth could
only have been his wife for a very short time, as she would have to
have been married to him after 1500. A look into Roger's IPM might
reveal whether or not this scenario is even possible (Cecily could just
have easily survived her husband), but I don't have ready access to
Volume 3 of the CIPM Henry VII series, so this avenue of exploration
will have to wait.

2) There was an Elizabeth, daughter of William Huddleston & Isabel
Neville, who did marry an Eyre, even a Roger Eyre, but he was not of
the Eyres of Padley. There were plenty of Eyres around at the time,
with many branches offshooting from the Padley one. This scenario is
the likeliest, actually.

There is one other possibility, rather intriguing, but a long shot.
Either William Huddleston or Isabel Neville had a daughter Elizabeth
prior to their marriage to each other. This would allow more leeway
chronologically for Roger Eyre of Padley to have taken this Elizabeth
as a second wife.

William Huddleston would have been in his mid-30s when he married
Isabel Neville. This was not at all unusual for a younger son, but it
does provide time for an earlier wife and daughter. John Neville,
Marquess Montagu, and Isabel Ingoldesthorpe were married in 1457 and
their only son George, duke of Bedford, was born in 1465. As their
youngest daughter, Isabel would have been born in the late 1460s.
Curiously, some sources ascribe to her another husband in addition to
William Huddleston and Sir William Smyth - one Ralph Dacre of Carlisle.
Humphrey Dacre, 2nd Lord of Gillesland & Mabel Parr, had a younger son
Ralph, who would have been born at the same time as Isabel Neville, and
about whom very little is known. He was presumably dead by November
1509, when his brother Hugh Dacre, a priest, made his will and
mentioned siblings Thomas, Christopher, Philip, Katherine and Anne, and
the deceased Humphrey. Only siblings Elizabeth and Ralph aren't
mentioned. Elizabeth had been married shortly after Bosworth to
Richard Huddleston (1476-1503), the heir of Millom Castle and nephew of
William Huddleston, as her mother Mabel, Lady Dacre, had abducted the
boy. Could an early betrothal for Isabel Neville to Ralph Dacre, who
then died young, perhaps by Bosworth, have brought her to the sphere of
the Huddlestons when Lady Dacre abducted their heir? Young Richard
Huddleston's mother was Margaret, illegitimate daughter of Warwick the
Kingmaker, and thus Isabel Neville's first cousin. Perhaps once Lady
Dacre's abduction of the Huddleston heir and his marriage to her
daughter was a fait accompli, young heiress Isabel Neville was offered
up as compensation to the Huddlestons? Whatever the circumstances that
led Isabel to her marriage to William Huddleston, it can at least be
ruled out that she had any child prior to that marriage.

The Eyres of Padley Hall did get a descent from Edward III through Sir
Arthur Eyre's first marriage to Margaret Plumpton:

Edward III had
John of Gaunt (1340-1399), who had
Joan Beaufort, Countess of Northumberland (c.1379-1440), who had
Mary Ferrers, Lady of Oversley (c.1394-1458), who had
John Neville of Oversley (d. 1482), who had
Joan Neville of Oversley m. 1) Sir William Gascoigne of Gawthorpe (d.
1463/4), and had
Agnes Gascoigne (d. 1504) m. 1478, Sir Robert Plumpton of Plumpton
(c.1453-1523), and had
Margaret Plumpton m. 1500, Sir Arthur Eyre of Padley (c.1481-15??)

Sir Arthur Eyre and Margaret Plumpton had 3 sons (Robert, Harry,
Edmund) and 4 daughters (Catherine, Anne, Margaret, Joan), but all died
young save Anne Eyre, who married Sir Thomas Fitzherbert of Norbury
Hall, and became the sole heiress of her father, inheriting Padley Hall
on his death in the mid-16th century. But Sir Thomas Fitzherbert was a
recusant, and died without issue a prisoner in the Tower of London on 2
October 1591, his wife Anne Eyre having predeceased him, and this line
of descent from Edward III came to a sad end.

If anyone knows anything further on the Eyres of Padley, that would be
great.

Cheers, ---------Brad

Gjest

Re: More Kinsfolk: Agnes, Countess of Braine's kinsman, Hugu

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 nov 2006 00:02:02

Agnes de Baudemont was heiress to the county (seigneurity?) of
Braine-sur-Vesle, also of Pontarcy, Savigny, Quincy-en-Tardenoids, Fere-en- Tardenois,
Longueville and Nesle also her grandfather Andre was Seneschal of Champagne, which
however appears to have gone to Alice a daughter by a wife of an earlier
marriage than Agnes of Braine-sur-Vesle. Alice married Erard I de Brienne and had
a daughter Felicite who married Hugues de Broyes and 2nd Geoffrey III de
Joinville who took the title of Senechal of Champagne.
Andre de Montdidier was the son of Hilduin de Montdidier, Comte de Roucy and
also known as Sire de Ramerupt.
See Burke`s Peerage 106th Edition (1999) p 226
Note: Gui II de Chatillon married Adelaide, daughter of Robert I, Count of
Dreux by his 2nd wife Havise d`Evereux and had by her a daughter Adele who
married Guillaume IV de Garlande, Sire de Livry,Great grandson of Guillaume I,
Seneschal of France (see also Genealogics.org)

Gjest

Re: More Kinsfolk: Agnes, Countess of Braine's kinsman, Hugu

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 nov 2006 00:36:03

In a message dated 10/31/06 3:15:08 PM Pacific Standard Time, Jwc1870@aol.com
writes:

<< Agnes de Baudemont ... her grandfather Andre was Seneschal of Champagne,
which
however appears to have gone to Alice a daughter by a wife of an earlier
marriage than Agnes of Braine-sur-Vesle. Alice married Erard I de Brienne >>

I have that Alice (Alix), Dame of Ramerupt who married Erard I, Count of
Brienne, was a daughter, not granddaughter of Andre, Sire of Ramerupt and of
Arcis-sur-Aube (son of Hildouin, Count of Montdidier by his wife Adelaide, Heiress
of Roucy)

So then this Agnes de Baudemont must be her niece not half-sister as the
above implies.
I *think* with a capital "Th" that I got this off genealogics... now you'll
have to make me source it !
Evil.


Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: More Kinsfolk: Agnes, Countess of Braine's kinsman, Hugu

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 nov 2006 01:21:02

Looking at these families led me, in a meandering way to
Robert II, Count of Dreux (d 1218)
<a href =
"http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00013796&tree=LEO">Entry</a> on genealogics.org

and his wife Yolande of Coucy (d 1222)

I have another daughter that Leo is not showing, which I picked up off
Stirnet, which itself cites BP1934

Eleanor de Dreux married Robert de Sinclair (in Normandy)
and from them descend the Sinclairs of Rosslyn

see <a href =
"http://www.stirnet.com/HTML/genie/british/ss4as/sinclair01.htm">her entry</a> on stirnet.com

Is this linkage completely mythological ?
Thanks
Will Johnson

Peter Stewart

Re: More Kinsfolk: Agnes, Countess of Braine's kinsman,Hugue

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 01 nov 2006 01:26:01

<Jwc1870@aol.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.145.1162335424.5663.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
Agnes de Baudemont was heiress to the county (seigneurity?) of
Braine-sur-Vesle, also of Pontarcy, Savigny, Quincy-en-Tardenoids,
Fere-en- Tardenois,
Longueville and Nesle also her grandfather Andre was Seneschal of
Champagne, which
however appears to have gone to Alice a daughter by a wife of an earlier
marriage than Agnes of Braine-sur-Vesle. Alice married Erard I de Brienne
and had
a daughter Felicite who married Hugues de Broyes and 2nd Geoffrey III de
Joinville who took the title of Senechal of Champagne.
Andre de Montdidier was the son of Hilduin de Montdidier, Comte de Roucy
and
also known as Sire de Ramerupt.
See Burke`s Peerage 106th Edition (1999) p 226
Note: Gui II de Chatillon married Adelaide, daughter of Robert I, Count of
Dreux by his 2nd wife Havise d`Evereux and had by her a daughter Adele who
married Guillaume IV de Garlande, Sire de Livry,Great grandson of
Guillaume I,
Seneschal of France (see also Genealogics.org)

I have no idea what is in Burke's 106th edition, but there is confusion of
two different lineages in the welter above.

André, seigneur of Baudement [NB not Baudemont] (died July 1142) was married
to a widow named Agnès, of unknown family, and had several children
including his successor Guy (married only once as far as is known, father of
Agnes, dame of Braine-sur-Vesle, the second wife of Robert I of Dreux) and a
daughter Humbelina, wife of Gautier II of Brienne, the son & heir of Erard I
by Alix (called "de Rosnay"), dame of Ramerupt. The last named was daughter
of André I, count of Ramerupt & Arcis, a younger brother of Ebles II, count
of Roucy - and not the same man as his contemporary & namesake the seigneur
of Baudement.

Erard I de Brienne's daughter Félicité married first Simon I, seigneur of
Broyes (not Hugues), and secondly Geoffrey III of Joinviulle as noted
above.

Guy II, seigneur of Châtillon married, as her second husband Adela (aka
Alix), daughter of Robert I who was called count as a personal title but
only seigneur of Dreux, and was by his first (not second) wife Hawise (aka
Amicia), daughter of Walter de Saresbury, sheriff of Wiltshire.

Peter Stewart

Peter Stewart

Re: More Kinsfolk: Agnes, Countess of Braine's kinsman,Hugue

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 01 nov 2006 01:31:02

<WJhonson@aol.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.150.1162340287.5663.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
Looking at these families led me, in a meandering way to
Robert II, Count of Dreux (d 1218)
a href =
"http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00013796&tree=LEO">Entry</a
on genealogics.org

and his wife Yolande of Coucy (d 1222)

I have another daughter that Leo is not showing, which I picked up off
Stirnet, which itself cites BP1934

Eleanor de Dreux married Robert de Sinclair (in Normandy)
and from them descend the Sinclairs of Rosslyn

see <a href =
"http://www.stirnet.com/HTML/genie/british/ss4as/sinclair01.htm">her
entry</a> on stirnet.com

Is this linkage completely mythological ?

According to Patrick van Kerrebrouck, Eleanor (died ca 1255/bef 1258)
married first (ca 1206) Hugues IV, seigneur of Châteauneuf-en-Thymerais
(died 1229) and secondly (in 1230, as his first wife) Robert de Chaumont,
seigneur of Saint-Clair (died ca 1269).

Peter Stewart

Gjest

Re: More Kinsfolk: Agnes, Countess of Braine's kinsman, Hugu

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 nov 2006 01:56:01

Dear Peter,
Thanks for straightening that out. Pages de donnes gives
Andre de Baudemont and Agnes` children as Adelais who married Anseric II de
Chacenay, Gui who married Alix NN, Helvide married 1st Hugues de Montreal, 2nd Gui
I de Dampierre and Humbeline, wife of Gauthier II de Brienne.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

Gjest

Re: More Kinsfolk: Agnes, Countess of Braine's kinsman, Hugu

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 nov 2006 02:11:02

In a message dated 10/31/06 4:30:42 PM Pacific Standard Time,
p_m_stewart@msn.com writes:

<< According to Patrick van Kerrebrouck, Eleanor (died ca 1255/bef 1258)
married first (ca 1206) Hugues IV, seigneur of Châteauneuf-en-Thymerais
(died 1229) and secondly (in 1230, as his first wife) Robert de Chaumont,
seigneur of Saint-Clair (died ca 1269). >>

Thanks Peter, thats very useful as always.
I think I'm one generation missing. I tried to use Leo's database but I
can't find the link there.
I have two candidate fathers for this Robert de Chaumont, seigneur of Saint
Clair (died ca 1269).

The brothers Guillaume de Chaumont 1155-1224 and probably more likely his
brother, called in my source "Robert de Saint Clair" and given dates of 1160-1232

I'm going to see if stirnet gives anything useful about the Chaumont family
that can bridge this gap. If I can, then my source adds another five
generations prior.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Sir Walter Stewart 3rd High Steward of Scotland

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 nov 2006 03:21:02

Dear Will,
Thomas Durward died before 1230 and after 1212, his son Alan
died in 1275 .
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
source : Alan Young Robert the Bruce`s rivals :The Comyns 1212-1314
page 38 and Stirnet Genealogy Atholl01

Gjest

Re: Sir Walter Stewart 3rd High Steward of Scotland

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 nov 2006 03:31:02

In a message dated 10/31/06 6:15:14 PM Pacific Standard Time, Jwc1870@aol.com
writes:

<< Thomas Durward died before 1230 and after 1212, his son
Alan
died in 1275 .
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
source : Alan Young Robert the Bruce`s rivals :The Comyns 1212-1314
page 38 and Stirnet Genealogy Atholl01 >>


James thanks for those details. Does you source make any comments about
Alan's wife Marjory daughter of King Alexander II ? I'm curious if there's any
particular statement about Alan being granted Atholl before or after the
marriage. And if he was Justiciar before or after the marriage. That is, which came
first? Did Alexander raise him up and then marry him to his daughter? Or
was he already a high-ranking official ?

Will

Gjest

Re: Eyre of Padley/Huddleston of Sawston

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 nov 2006 03:45:04

In a message dated 10/31/06 9:12:44 AM Pacific Standard Time,
royaldescent@hotmail.com writes:

<< > All of the above Eyre of Padley children and their issue would thus be
descendants of Edward III through Isabel Neville, wife of William
Huddleston of Sawston.

They're also all descendents of that person we dread to bring up again
here....
Gospatric FitzOrm of Workington, through the Huddlestons.

Will

Gjest

Re: William Sinclair of Rossyln, Sheriff of Edinburgh 1264

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 nov 2006 03:57:02

In a message dated 10/31/06 6:30:57 PM Pacific Standard Time,
p_m_stewart@msn.com writes:

<< I understand tat it has been reprinted recently,
perhaps due to interest in Freemasonry (and/or the Rosslyn chapel from the
_Da Vinci Code_ farrago). >>

Thanks Peter. I found a book at Google
Dictionnaire histoique de toutes les communes du department de l'Eure, par m
Charpillon <a href =
"http://books.google.com/books?vid=OCLC12769391&id=nuELE8SLxVMC&pg=PA328&lpg=PA328&dq=Guillaume+de+chaumont">pg 328 Gui</a>

which fell just a *tad* short of informing me that the link was sound.
I quoted part of it into my database:
""Robert II, fils de Robert, dit le Roux, et frere de Guilluame II, etait en
1208 seigneur de Guitry, en partie; en 1211, du consentement d'Edithe, sa
femme, il ceda aux religieux de Guitry ses pretentions sur la terre de la Vignole,
et confirme les dons de ses ancetres; il est la tige des seigneurs de
Saint-Clair; son sceau etait charge de 6 ourelles orisees d'un aigle eploye.""

What they give, didn't quite make the leap I needed, although it did confirm
part of the ancestry. So thank you for pointing out that SP confirms this
connection also.

The Dictionnaire does say that it was "Amaury dit Robert" Seigneur of Guitry
in 1208 who was the ancestor of the Saint Clairs of Rosslyn, so it must be he
who is the father of this Robert (d abt 1269).

The elder Robert is given in "Holy Blood, Holy Grail" with dates 1160-1232
which seems reasonable. Oddly enough, since it's one of their main points, they
do not make crystal-clear that it was Robert Junior (d abt 1269) who married
Eleanor Dreux and were the parents thus of that William Sinclair who came to
Scotland.

They should have hired me to edit it. Next time I'm at the library I will
have to check for this book by Robert Hay to see if he gives more details on
this part of the family. Since it's such an important link to establish without
doubt.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: More Kinsfolk: Agnes, Countess of Braine's kinsman, Hugu

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 nov 2006 04:31:02

Dear Leo, Douglas, Peter and others,
I have found a
possible solution though not in the best of sources. Lt Colonel W H Turton in his
book Plantagenet Ancestry on p 220 give Andre de Baudemont and Agnes as the
parents of Eustache, wife of Guillaume II de Garlande and indicates Anselme as his
source.
Sincerely,
James W
Cummings
Dixmont, Maine
USA

Peter Stewart

Re: More Kinsfolk: Agnes, Countess of Braine's kinsman,Hugue

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 01 nov 2006 05:56:02

<Jwc1870@aol.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.160.1162351742.5663.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
Dear Leo, Douglas, Peter and others,
I have found a
possible solution though not in the best of sources. Lt Colonel W H Turton
in his
book Plantagenet Ancestry on p 220 give Andre de Baudemont and Agnes as
the
parents of Eustache, wife of Guillaume II de Garlande and indicates
Anselme as his
source.

I don't have the time at present to check this, but I think (NB Richardson -
this is NOT a statement purporting to be a known fact) that André de
Baudement and his wife Agnès had just two daughters, who were named togather
in a charter as Helvide and Humbelina. According to ES the only wife of
Guillaume II de Garlende was
Agnès de Toucy.



I must admit I have lost track (if I was ever aware) of what is to be solved
about these families - can you (re)mind me of this?



Peter Stewart

Gjest

Re: Eylesford and Boulewas/Buildwas: also Sir Thomas BARRE

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 nov 2006 07:01:02

In a message dated 10/23/06 11:54:43 PM Pacific Standard Time,
Millerfairfield@aol.com writes:

<< The Hampshire Record Office preserves a file 1M53 (Coventry of Burgate),
which identifies Sir Thomas' mother as a sister of Sir Richard Pembrugge
(d.1375), and shows that Sir Thomas became entitled to a share of the
manor of Burgate and the hundred of Fordingbridge as coheir of Sir Richard's
son Henry.
MM >>

Thanks for finding the CPR confirmation that Sir Thomas Barre was indeed of
very great age when he died in 1419

Is it possible this Richard Pembrugge and his sister may also be siblings to
Juliana Pembrugge wife of Richard de Vernon d 1377 ?

Gjest

Re: Giffards of Yester

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 nov 2006 07:06:02

In a message dated 10/28/06 1:40:58 AM Pacific Standard Time, tim@powys.org
writes:

<< > Joanna (Gifford) Hay who married Thomas Hay or de Haya, Sheriff of
Peebles was the gggrandmother of William Graham, 1st Earl Montrose

He already happened to be descendend from William Giffard, 2nd Lord of
Yester (b abt 1165) through his daughter Janet married to Adam, Baron
of Seton (d 1249) but now from this site, he is also descended from
William's son John newly brought back to light.

My only source for the Setons is my CDROM of the Scots Peerage and this
has no Adam Seton, baron of Seton, within either it or the corrigenda in
volume 9. They do mention an Adam Seton but say he was a churchman (and
thus not married) and that there is no early authority for him being the
heir of Seton (Vol 8, p. 562, note 10 which spills over to page 563). >>


I've removed his title and just made him plain "Adam Seton" based on this link

This <a href = "http://community-2.webtv.net/NUbrubun55/GIFFARDOFYESTER/">Site
</a> states that Adam Seton married Jonet Giffard, "more likely the daughter
of William Giffard than his father Hugh".

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Giffards of Yester

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 nov 2006 07:11:02

By the way, Adam de Seton who married Janet Giffard (of Yester) apparently
has an Ancestral File number of FBZM-4F

Janet's is HRGF-ML

Will Johnson

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: Giffards of Yester

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 01 nov 2006 10:30:06

In message of 1 Nov, WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

By the way, Adam de Seton who married Janet Giffard (of Yester) apparently
has an Ancestral File number of FBZM-4F

Janet's is HRGF-ML

Is there any significance to this? And is it likely that one person may
not end up with two ancestral numbers because two people each made
entirely separate entries about them?

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/

Alex Maxwell Findlater

Re: Giffards of Yester

Legg inn av Alex Maxwell Findlater » 01 nov 2006 12:06:09

I suspect that this Adam Seton is a member of the Yorkshire family, who
held of the Bruces, also had land in Cumberland. Sorry about the
layout of the tree below. I'm incompetent!

Alex

Pedigree of Seton


Osbert de Seton
fl 1150,d by 1176
|
|
Ivo de Seton
witnessed for Bruces of Yorkshire 1178x1185
witnessed for Bruces of Annandale 1150x1194
fl 1170-90
|
|
Adam de Seton
Seneschal to Peter I of Yorkshire
m Matilda dau and heir of William de Thurp of Castle Eden
fl 1200-1230
|
|
Sir Ivo de Seton
sold manor of Castle Eden
fl 1234-1240
_______________|_______________________
| |
Robert de Seton Adam de Seton
probably brother
of Robert
fl from1246 d 1288
______________________________|
|
Sir John de Seton
probably son of Adam
certainly his successor
m Ermina de Lasceles
fl from 1285 d 1299
|
|
Sir Christopher Seton
m Christian de Brus
b 1278 exec 1306

Nusrat Rizvi

Re: Robert Honywood (1525-1576) and Mary Atwater (1527-1620)

Legg inn av Nusrat Rizvi » 01 nov 2006 13:23:40

On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 05:19:22 GMT, sloan@ishipress.com (Sam Sloan)
wrote:

Can you name a single person who gives a damn about this bullshit?

It would not bother me one bit if it turns out that this genealogy is
false. I consider it more noble to be the son of a horse thief:

http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Index.asp?mid=13SAUh2
The best genealogical software you can getRelationship Chart

Samuel Howard Sloan is the 7th Cousin 5 times removed of 9th President
William Henry Harrison

Common Ancestor

* Robert Honywood
(1525-1576)
* Mary Atwater
(1527-1620)
Married Feb 1543
|
--------------------------------------------
| |
| |
William Henmarsh George Woodward
(About 1541- ) (About 1554-
)
* Katherine Honywood * Elizabeth
Honywood
(1546- ) (1561-1631)
Married About 1566
| |
| |
Richard Willis James Bacon
(Before 1607- ) (1595-1649)
* Jane Henmarsh * Martha Honeywood
Woodward
(About 1603-Between 1635) (1597-1670)
Married About 1624 Married 1619
| |
| |
* Thomas Willis Anthony Smith
(About 1625-1668) (1630-1662)
Mary Bentley * Martha Bacon
(About 1633-1684) (1634- )
Married About 1654 Married Before
1656
| |
| |
Robert Aldin Major Lewis Burwell,
II
(About 1649-1720) (1653-1711)
* Ellianor Willis * Abigail Smith
(1655-About 1737) (1656-1692)
Married About 1680 Married 1674
| |
| |
Martin Nalle Benjamin III
Harrison
(Circa 1675-Between 1728) (1673-1710)
* Mary Jane Aldin * Elizabeth
Burwell
(1681-1734) (1675-1734)
Married About 1702 Married 1698
| |
| |
* Martin Nalle, Jr * Colonel Benjamin
Harrison, IV
(About 1707-1788) (1693-1745)
Isabelle Anne Carter
(About 1710-1788) (1696-1743)
Married About 1730 Married About 1722
| |
| |
Job Popham * Gov. Benjamin
Harrison
(1709-1781) (1726-1791)
* Ann Nall Elizabeth Bassett
(1738-1825) (1730-1792)
Married 1758 Married 1748
| |
| |
* Humphrey Popham * 9th President William
Henry
Harrison
(1763- ) (1773-1841)
Elizabeth Betsey Hawkins
(1762-After 1826)
Married 2 Nov 1788
|
|
William M Graham
(1801-1882)
* Jane Popham
(1809-1893)
Married 13 Mar 1835
|
|
* Samuel Allison Graham
(1848-1931)
Elizabeth Grace Thomson
(1851-1932)
Married 3 Jun 1869
|
|
Wesley Peter Jacobson
(1877-1963)
* Mary Elizabeth Graham
(1879-1956)
Married 2 Jun 1909
|
|
Leroy Bayfield Sloan
(1910-1986)
* Dr. Helen Marjorie Jacobson
(1910- )
Married 27 Jun 1937
|
|
* Samuel Howard Sloan
(1944- )

John P. Ravilious

Re: William Sinclair of Rossyln, Sheriff of Edinburgh 1264

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 01 nov 2006 13:36:52

Wednesday, 1 November, 2006


Dear Will, Peter, et al.,

I am not aware of any credible support for the claimed
connection of the Sinclairs of Rosslyn to the counts of Dreux.
The claim that the 'first' Sir William de St. Clair was a son of
Robert, son of Robert II of Dreux was mentioned (as I recall) in
Scots Peerage (VI:564), and has been oft repeated (see the online
Stirnet pedigree, 'Sinclair01' for example).

Even the problematic earlier part of Father Hay's work on the
Sinclairs [1] claims a Sinclair presence in Scotland commencing in
or about the reign of David I. Father Hay does, however, provide
some actual texts of Sinclair-related charters, and is worth
consulting. However, beware of interesting claims in that work as
well, including that (for example):

"Sir William Sinclare, second sone to Woldonius or Widernus,
in France, whose mother was daughter to Duke Richard [of
Normandy],....."

".... and he, by his liberality, winning preferment, married
Dorothe, as some say Agnas Dunbar, daughter to Patrick first
Earle of Marche, or as some writters have, fifth Earle of
Marche,...." [2]

Also, I'd recommend using several grains of salt when dealing
with "Holy Blood, Holy Grail". Perhaps an interesting read, but
so too is Prince Michael of Albany's reconstruction of the Stewart
lineage - if only to sharpen the senses (esp. that of smell).

Cheers,

John




[1] Father Richard Augustin Hay, Prior of St. Pieremont,
Genealogie of the Sainteclaires of Rosslyn (Edinburgh:
Thomas G. Stevenson, 1835).

Accessible online, via Googlebooks

http://books.google.com/books?vid=OCLC0 ... ISO-8859-1


[2] Ibid., p. 2



WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 10/31/06 6:30:57 PM Pacific Standard Time,
p_m_stewart@msn.com writes:

I understand tat it has been reprinted recently,
perhaps due to interest in Freemasonry (and/or the Rosslyn chapel from the
_Da Vinci Code_ farrago).

Thanks Peter. I found a book at Google
Dictionnaire histoique de toutes les communes du department de l'Eure, par m
Charpillon <a href =
"http://books.google.com/books?vid=OCLC12769391&id=nuELE8SLxVMC&pg=PA328&lpg=PA328&dq=Guillaume+de+chaumont">pg 328 Gui</a

which fell just a *tad* short of informing me that the link was sound.
I quoted part of it into my database:
""Robert II, fils de Robert, dit le Roux, et frere de Guilluame II, etait en
1208 seigneur de Guitry, en partie; en 1211, du consentement d'Edithe, sa
femme, il ceda aux religieux de Guitry ses pretentions sur la terre de la Vignole,
et confirme les dons de ses ancetres; il est la tige des seigneurs de
Saint-Clair; son sceau etait charge de 6 ourelles orisees d'un aigle eploye.""

What they give, didn't quite make the leap I needed, although it did confirm
part of the ancestry. So thank you for pointing out that SP confirms this
connection also.

The Dictionnaire does say that it was "Amaury dit Robert" Seigneur of Guitry
in 1208 who was the ancestor of the Saint Clairs of Rosslyn, so it must be he
who is the father of this Robert (d abt 1269).

The elder Robert is given in "Holy Blood, Holy Grail" with dates 1160-1232
which seems reasonable. Oddly enough, since it's one of their main points, they
do not make crystal-clear that it was Robert Junior (d abt 1269) who married
Eleanor Dreux and were the parents thus of that William Sinclair who came to
Scotland.

They should have hired me to edit it. Next time I'm at the library I will
have to check for this book by Robert Hay to see if he gives more details on
this part of the family. Since it's such an important link to establish without
doubt.

Will Johnson

Alex Maxwell Findlater

Re: Giffards of Yester

Legg inn av Alex Maxwell Findlater » 01 nov 2006 14:25:50

This <a href = "http://community-2.webtv.net/NUbrubun55/GIFFARDOFYESTER/">Site
/a> states that Adam Seton married Jonet Giffard, "more likely the daughter
of William Giffard than his father Hugh".


I cannot see where this site mentions Adam Seton. Please would you
point me to the exact page. Please, also, what is the descent you
mention from Adam Seton? Thanks very much.

Alex

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: Giffards of Yester

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 01 nov 2006 15:11:20

In message of 1 Nov, "Alex Maxwell Findlater"
<maxwellfindlater@hotmail.com> wrote:

I suspect that this Adam Seton is a member of the Yorkshire family,
who held of the Bruces, also had land in Cumberland. Sorry about the
layout of the tree below. I'm incompetent!

I don't think you are: it is, as far as I can find out, Google that is
incompetent in not providing a means of switching to a fixed font.

To line up trees, you must have a fixed font, both to send and to
receive.

Unless anyone knows better, the only answer is to switch to direct use
of usenet or to subscribe to this group via Rootsweb; see:

http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/other/N ... IEVAL.html

Then you must set your e-mail or usenet software to fixed font.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: Giffards of Yester

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 01 nov 2006 15:27:40

In message of 1 Nov, "Alex Maxwell Findlater" <maxwellfindlater@hotmail.com> wrote:

This <a href = "http://community-2.webtv.net/NUbrubun55/GIFFARDOFYESTER/">Site
/a> states that Adam Seton married Jonet Giffard, "more likely the daughter
of William Giffard than his father Hugh".


I cannot see where this site mentions Adam Seton. Please would you
point me to the exact page. Please, also, what is the descent you
mention from Adam Seton? Thanks very much.

In the section titled Generation I, about half way though it and for the
third child, Jonet Giffard, who m. an Adam Seton, and then again in
Generation II in the list of children on William Giffard.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/

Gjest

Re: Eylesford and Boulewas/Buildwas: also Sir Thomas BARRE

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 nov 2006 17:32:11

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
Is it possible this Richard Pembrugge and his sister may also be siblings to
Juliana Pembrugge wife of Richard de Vernon d 1377 ?

Juliana was the sole heiress in her issue, so no- there seem to be
three separate Pembrugge/ Pembridge strands, which may well be
connected somehow- Juliana's line, of Tong; Sir Richard's line, of
Clehonger and Newland; and the John de P whose daughter Alice (d.1415)
married de la Bere, Oldcastle and Merbury.
-Matthew

Gjest

Re: Giffards of Yester

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 nov 2006 18:01:03

In a message dated 11/1/2006 5:33:52 AM Pacific Standard Time,
maxwellfindlater@hotmail.com writes:

I cannot see where this site mentions Adam Seton. Please would you
point me to the exact page. Please, also, what is the descent you
mention from Adam Seton? Thanks very much.


Under the section "Children of Hugh" it says
"Jonet Giffard of Yester married Adam de Seton, "

Gjest

Re: Parentage of Christian Sothill Babthorpe

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 nov 2006 18:21:02

In a message dated 11/1/2006 9:09:18 AM Pacific Standard Time,
royaldescent@hotmail.com writes:

I couldn't find
Bartine on the Hesilrige pedigree on Stirnet.


The name "Bartine" is highly unusual. A search in A2A just for "Bartine"
only turns up four documents. None for a Haselring or variant. But if
something can be found to confirm this name, it might lead to new discoveries.

Will

Gjest

Re: Eylesford and Boulewas/Buildwas: also Sir Thomas BARRE

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 nov 2006 19:31:02

Wjhonson asked whether it is possible that Sir Richard Pembrugge
and his sister (mother of Sir Thomas Barre) may also be siblings to
Juliana Pembrugge wife of Richard de Vernon d 1377.
http://www.todmar.net/ancestry/vernon_main.htm
gives the following:-
"04. Sir Richard Vernon, son of William and Margaret,
" of Haddon, Derbyshire, and Harlaston, Staffordshire,
" died 8 Sept. 1376. He married Juliana De Pembrugge
" (of Pembridge, of Carolingian descent), who was aged
"60 in 1409, and died in 1410. In 1377 she made a vow
"of chastity before Robert, the Bishop of Coventry and
"Lichfield. On returning home with the king's license,
"she was assaulted and wounded by William Bagot and
"others, and imprisoned first at Paulerspury in
"Northamptonshire and then Warwick Castle. In 1409 she
"was heir to her brother, Sir Fulk Pembridge, inheriting
"the castle and lordship of Tong in Shropshire and
"Aylestone in Leicestershire.
I believe that the author of this is called Tod Marshall.
The only source he mentions is "Medieval English
Ancestors of Robert Abell"(author unidentified), but his
work seems thorough to me. But I have no personal
knowledge of the Pembridge/family, so can't offer any
opinion on the question raised by Will.
MM

Gjest

Re: More Kinsfolk: Agnes, Countess of Braine's kinsman, Hugu

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 nov 2006 23:11:01

Dear Peter,
Intially Douglas was trying to find the relationship between
Henry I, Duke of Brabant and Blanche of Navarre,regent /Countess of Champagne
and heiress to her brother King Sancho VI /VII of Navarre, then He introduced
a document indicating that Ida, wife of Duke Godfrey I of Lower Lorraine and
Brabant was related to Agnes de Baudemont and of Ida, Countess of Cleves
Finally He discovered that Agnes de Baudemont was a cousin of Hugues de
Garlande, Bishop of Orleans, who was the son of Guido and grandson of Gilbert,
brother of Guillaume I de Garlande, Senechal of France who was the father of
Guillaume II which would make the Baudemonts even if He married one no relation to
the afore mentioned Hugues de Garlande.
Incidently, with the Chiny identification of Ida, I have discovered so far
that the best relationship to be made for Blanche of Navarre and Henry I, Duke
of Brabant is He being her 5th cousin once removed via Beatrice ,wife of
Geoffrey, Count of Perche and Adele, wife of Arnold II, Count of Chiny , daughters
of Hildouin III de Montdidier, Count of Roucy by Adele of Roucy.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

Gjest

Re: the family of Alan Durward: a Sinclair ascent?

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 nov 2006 23:34:38

John you stated that Sir Henry de Sinclair d aft 13 Oct 1335

I also have a note that he "d bef 28 Jan 1335/6" citing stirnet

If both dates can be supported than he must have died between them.

Will

Gjest

Re: Death date of Queen Bérengère of England, widow of Kin

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 nov 2006 23:35:04

In a message dated 10/31/06 11:46:00 PM Pacific Standard Time,
p_m_stewart@msn.com writes:

<< Berengaria on the other hand was a
comparative non-entity, who died as a nun. >>

That statement is sort of sad in a way isn't it?
She had such a bright future. After Richard divorced Alys (Mar 1190 while at
Messina), he had Berengaria brought to him by his mother the dowager Eleanor
(of Aquitaine). They were shipwrecked on the way, threated by Comnenus.
Richard came to their rescue, overthrew Comnenus and married Berengaria right
there in the Chapel of St George, at Limasol, Cyprus.

I mean is that isn't a great romantic storyline I don't know what is. The
white knight rides in, overthrows the evil tyrant holding the princess and her
guardian and then marries her and everyone lives happily ever after, the end.

Except of course, later, she returned ahead of him, he was captured and held
for ransom, which she tried to raise. He was released after a few years but
evidently didnt rejoin her and had to be ordered to cohabit with her again, by
a priest, who made references to the story of Sodom.

And then after his death, his evil brother John withheld all or part of her
rightful dower payments and was in arrears upon his own death to the death of
some four *thousand* pounds (i.e. a right lot). John's son Henry III,
apparently made up for that.

Is there a date as to when she entered the convent? Her Wikipedia article
makes it appear that it was possibly in her old age. She was only perhaps 30ish
when Richard died.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Giffards of Yesteryear

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 nov 2006 23:41:02

In a message dated 11/1/06 7:15:47 AM Pacific Standard Time,
starbuck95@hotmail.com writes:

<<
http://books.google.com/books?id=4VsJAA ... &q=giffard >>

I noticed that Ursula Throckmorton is highlighted here.
And found a trifle more here

Leicestershire Pedigrees and Royal Descents, Rev. Wm. Geo. Dimock Fletcher.
Clarke and Hodson, Leicester. 1887 <a href =
"http://books.google.com/books?vid=OCLC04885724&id=VpnC3wgof6gC&pg=RA28-PP33&lpg=RA28-PP33&dq=Throckmorton+Ursula
">page 128</a>

Will Johnson

Gordon and Jane Kirkemo

RE: Eylesford and Boulewas/Buildwas: also Sir Thomas BARRE

Legg inn av Gordon and Jane Kirkemo » 01 nov 2006 23:48:11

I've been following this discussion, and can add the following. The author
of the book about Robert Abell's ancestry is Carl Boyer who occasionally
posts to the group. He also published a companion book titled "Medieval
English Ancestors of Certain Americans." This book takes some of the Abell
lines further back.



Regarding Pembrugge, Boyer provides the following under the heading of "de
Pembrugge of Clehonger and Tong" (page 192):



"1. Sir Henry de Pembridge, of Pembridge, Herefordshire, was of record in
1235 and 1254.



He was of a family which had distinguished itself for anti-Royalist
sentiment.



In 1235 Henry de Pembrugge, according to the Testa de Nevill [Eyton, Ant.
Shropshire, 2:225], held almost two knight's fees at Weston and Woneston in
Gloucestershire of the Honour of Cormeilles. About 1243 Henry was found
holding Pembridge in Stretford Hundred, Herefordshire, of the Honour of
Radnor, by one knight's fee. In 1248 he had a charter of free-warren at
Weston.



On 10 May 1254 he paid a fine of one hundred marks to have custody of the
lands of Lucia and Euphemia de Gamages, and their marriages for his two
sons.



Children, listed by Eyton [2:226] and Norr [95]:

i. Henry, b. c.1218; d. c. Jan. 1272; m. before 20 April 1254 [Eyton,
4:149] Elizabeth de Gamage.

ii. William, b. c.1220; l.1263; m. Eufemia de Gamage, dau. and coheir
of Godfrey de Gamage.

iii. Richard."



In addition to the above description, Mr. Boyer provides the following
introduction:



"This line was originally based on Weis' Ancestral Roots, Line 7, and was
substantially expanded with material from Eyton's Antiquities of Shropshire.



According to Norr [95] the line may begin with Henry Pembridge, who had a
charter from King Henry I, and who had a daughter Sybil, who married Simon
de la Bere, and son Walter, who was born in 1108. In turn Walter had a
daughter Eleanor, who married Eustace Cecil, and a son Sir Richard, who
settled at Welsh Newton early in the thirteenth century and had sons Sir
Henry (born about 1192), Sir John (born about 1196) and Sir Fulk (born about
1200)."



I believe the Norr reference is to "Some Early English Pedigrees" by Vernon
M. Norr.



I hope this information is helpful to your discussion, and I wonder if
anything further is known regarding the ancestry of Sir John Pembridge,
father of Alice (wife of John Merbury)?



Sincerely,

Gordon Kirkemo



-----Original Message-----
From: Millerfairfield@aol.com [mailto:Millerfairfield@aol.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 10:29 AM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Eylesford and Boulewas/Buildwas: also Sir Thomas BARRE



Wjhonson asked whether it is possible that Sir Richard Pembrugge

and his sister (mother of Sir Thomas Barre) may also be siblings to

Juliana Pembrugge wife of Richard de Vernon d 1377.

http://www.todmar.net/ancestry/vernon_main.htm

gives the following:-

"04. Sir Richard Vernon, son of William and Margaret,

" of Haddon, Derbyshire, and Harlaston, Staffordshire,

" died 8 Sept. 1376. He married Juliana De Pembrugge

" (of Pembridge, of Carolingian descent), who was aged

"60 in 1409, and died in 1410. In 1377 she made a vow

"of chastity before Robert, the Bishop of Coventry and

"Lichfield. On returning home with the king's license,

"she was assaulted and wounded by William Bagot and

"others, and imprisoned first at Paulerspury in

"Northamptonshire and then Warwick Castle. In 1409 she

"was heir to her brother, Sir Fulk Pembridge, inheriting

"the castle and lordship of Tong in Shropshire and

"Aylestone in Leicestershire.

I believe that the author of this is called Tod Marshall.

The only source he mentions is "Medieval English

Ancestors of Robert Abell"(author unidentified), but his

work seems thorough to me. But I have no personal

knowledge of the Pembridge/family, so can't offer any

opinion on the question raised by Will.

MM

Gjest

Re: More Kinsfolk: Agnes, Countess of Braine's kinsman, Hugu

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 nov 2006 00:31:02

Dear Leo,
I`m afraid You`re missing two generations Godfrey I and Ida
had Godfrey II married Luitgardis of Sulzbach and had Godfrey III who married
Margarethe of Limburg. They were the parents of Hendrik I, Duke of Brabant, who
is thus Blanca`s (We were both confused) 4th cousin once removed, Godfrey II
being the 3rd cousin of Sancho VI, Godfrey III the 4th cousin of Blanca and
Hendrik 4th once removed.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

Gjest

Re: Smith of Cressing Temple, the Savage and Paulet families

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 nov 2006 00:41:02

Leicestershire Pedigrees and Royal Descents, Rev. Wm. Geo. Dimock Fletcher.
Clarke and Hodson, Leicester. 1887 <a href =
"http://books.google.com/books?vid=OCLC04885724&id=VpnC3wgof6gC&pg=RA28-PP33&lpg=RA28-PP33&dq=Throckmorton+Ursula
">page 128</a>

states that "Edmund [Smith] m Barbara, dau & coh of Sir John Hampden, Knt, &
had a dau & h, Anne, m to Wm Pawlet, (son & h of Sir Geo Pawlet, Knt)"

Now on the other hand.... Leo has this same [apparently] Barbara Hampden here
<a href =
"http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00330834&tree=LEO">Barbara</a> died 1552 citing
Debrett's Book of Royal Children MacMillan, London, 1982 , Kidd, Charles &
Patrick Montague-Smith, Reference: trees

saying that her husband's were *Henry* Smith and Sir George Paulet of
Crondall, only showing one son by this last.

I know that Leo doesn't extract all children, and at any rate Debrett's might
not show them all, but... can these two be combined and say Barbara's
daughter by her first marriage Anne, married George's son by *his* first marriage
William, and earlier or later Barbara herself married George.

Seems very cozy, but is it accurate?

Thanks
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Smith of Cressing Temple, the Savage and Paulet families

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 nov 2006 01:11:02

I think I stepped in it. These people are complex!

George Paulet had three wives, Barbara Hampden had at least two husbands.
George's third and last wife herself had three husbands. A great way to get
quickly confused with all the siblings, half-siblings, and step-siblings
running around.

At any rate, some time ago, there was some question on Elizabeth Windsor's
final husband called "Ralph or Richard Scrope" (d 1572). Well here we let
Elizabeth herself, tell us that his name was Ralph

West Sussex Record Office: Charles Stubbs Collection
CHARLES STUBBS COLLECTION
Catalogue Ref. SAS-S
Creator(s): Stubbs, Charles, fl 1926
LANCING, BROADWATER & WORTHING

FILE - Deed of Award and Covenant - ref. SAS-S/488 - date: 2 Jan 1576
[from Scope and Content] Between Dame Elizabeth Pawlett, widow, sometime wife
of Sir George Pawlett, kt. deceased, and late wife of Raphe Scroope, esq.,
and the Right Hon. William, Lord Sands, son of the said Dame Elizabeth, and
Henry Goringe of Burton, esq., and Sir Thomas Palmer of Parham, co. Sussex, kt.,
and Edward Carrell and Raphe Hare of (blank) in the said C. esqs., as
Arbitrators in a dispute between Dame Elizabeth and Hary Goringe concerning the right
to certain marshground in Brodewater and Lawnsinge claimed by Dame Elizabeth to
belong to her manor of Brodewater and by Henry Goringe to belong to his manor
of South Launsing


Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Eylesford and Boulewas/Buildwas: also Sir Thomas BARRE

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 nov 2006 01:26:02

Thanks for your notes on this.

Will

Gjest

Re: Parentage of Christian Sothill Babthorpe

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 nov 2006 01:36:02

In a message dated 11/1/06 9:09:18 AM Pacific Standard Time,
royaldescent@hotmail.com writes:

<< (a) Miles Hesilrige of Noseley
m. Bridget Griffin (dau of Thomas Griffin of Braybroke, she m2.
William Lane)
((1)) Thomas Hesilrige of Noseley Hall - continued below
m. Ursula Andrews (dau of Sir Thomas Andrews of Charwelton) >>

There's another one of those step-sibling marriages going on here I think (or
something like it)

http://www.southfarm.plus.com/pl_tree/wc19/wc19_214.htm
states that Thomas Andrews of Charwelton married Mary Heneage. He died about
1568 and was her second husband.
After him she married Sir Robert Lane b 7 Jan 1527 Hogshaw, Bucks. and son
of Ralph Lane by Maud Parr daughter of William Baron Parr of Horton

It would seem likely that the above William Lane, who married the mother of
Thomas Andrew's son-in-law, is somehow connected to this Robert Lane because of
this.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Parentage of Christian Sothill Babthorpe

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 nov 2006 01:56:02

In a message dated 11/1/06 1:24:42 PM Pacific Standard Time,
mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk writes:

<< I got the mysterious name Bartine at that generation from George F
Farnham's 'Leicestershire Medieval Pedigrees' (1925), generally a
pretty good, but obviously not flawless, source. I don't have the page
ref on my photocopy of the pedigree, but it's the >>

Isn't it odd how serendipity allows me to state that I only *yesterday* first
found this source. I had posted a link in one of my messages today on
another family. And I've added the book as "Leicestershire Pedigrees" to my
jump-page at

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com ... Census.htm

On this particular question the link directly to "Bartine" is page 11 here
http://books.google.com/books?vid=OCLC0 ... 48&lpg=PP4
8&dq=Bartram+Noseley

which tells us "Bertine (or Bartram)" and cites Inq P M 7 Eliz Court of
[cutoff here] vol X no 87

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Sir Walter Stewart 3rd High Steward of Scotland

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 nov 2006 01:57:02

Dear Will,
Yes, Young does say that Alan Durward and Marjorie of Scotland
were married in about 1244, the year Alexander II made him Justiciar of
Scotia on page 48 of The Comyns.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

Gjest

Re: Parentage of Christian Sothill Babthorpe

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 nov 2006 02:11:01

In a message dated 11/1/06 1:24:42 PM Pacific Standard Time,
mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk writes:

<< Thomas Hazlerigg, b. 1461, d. 24 May 1541=Lucy Entwisell
Bartine Hazlerigg d. 30 July 1565=Anne dau John Southill
Miles Hazlerigg dvp 28 Nov 1544=Bridget dau Thos Griffin, kt
Thomas b.1543 (etc); & Edward b.1544 >>

Are you certain about the "dvp 1544" above?
The link I pasted says that Thomas was "aged 22 at his father's death"
unless they've mistaken the IPM of his father for his grandfather.

John Higgins

Re: Smith of Cressing Temple, the Savage and Paulet families

Legg inn av John Higgins » 02 nov 2006 02:24:45

I'd be wary of this particular pedigree of Smith of Cressing Temple. This
version simply repeats the Smith-Carington pedigree, well-known to be
fictitious in its connection of Smith to Carington. This is the pedigree
that J. H. Round took such great delight in demolishing in his article "The
Great Carington Imposture". According to CP [sub Carrington of Wotton and
Burford] the pedigree cannot be verified beyond the father [or possibly the
grandfather] of the Edmund you mention.

----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 3:36 PM
Subject: Re: Smith of Cressing Temple, the Savage and Paulet families


Leicestershire Pedigrees and Royal Descents, Rev. Wm. Geo. Dimock
Fletcher.
Clarke and Hodson, Leicester. 1887 <a href =

"http://books.google.com/books?vid=OCLC04885724&id=VpnC3wgof6gC&pg=RA28-PP33

&lpg=RA28-PP33&dq=Throckmorton+Ursula
">page 128</a

states that "Edmund [Smith] m Barbara, dau & coh of Sir John Hampden, Knt,
&
had a dau & h, Anne, m to Wm Pawlet, (son & h of Sir Geo Pawlet, Knt)"

Now on the other hand.... Leo has this same [apparently] Barbara Hampden
here
a href =

"http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00330834&tree=LEO">Barba

ra</a> died 1552 citing
Debrett's Book of Royal Children MacMillan, London, 1982 , Kidd, Charles
&
Patrick Montague-Smith, Reference: trees

saying that her husband's were *Henry* Smith and Sir George Paulet of
Crondall, only showing one son by this last.

I know that Leo doesn't extract all children, and at any rate Debrett's
might
not show them all, but... can these two be combined and say Barbara's
daughter by her first marriage Anne, married George's son by *his* first
marriage
William, and earlier or later Barbara herself married George.

Seems very cozy, but is it accurate?

Thanks
Will Johnson

-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the

quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Gjest

Re: Sir Walter Stewart 3rd High Steward of Scotland

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 nov 2006 02:36:02

In a message dated 11/1/06 4:50:41 PM Pacific Standard Time, Jwc1870@aol.com
writes:

<< Yes, Young does say that Alan Durward and Marjorie of
Scotland
were married in about 1244, the year Alexander II made him Justiciar of
Scotia on page 48 of The Comyns. >>

That she was married in 1244 probably narrows her birth range a bit.
Assuming her three daughters were
1) unknown married John Bisset the younger.
2) Anne married Colbron, 8th Earl of Fife born abt 1245/6 and parents of
Duncan b abt 1262
3) Ermengarde married Patrick, 9th Earl of Dunbar b [correcting CP] 1254/71
and parents of Patrick, 10th Earl born 1271/88

It would appear the three daughters, if the above is them, are in their birth
order above. However John Bisset is stated to have died "abt 1260" which
drastically reduces the amount of time for unknown to have three daughters
herself, to wit: Cecelia (Bisset) Fenton, Elizabeth (Bisset) de Bosco and Muriel
(Bisset) Graham. In fact the daughters, for chronologic reasons all must be born
between 1257 and 1261.

Will Johnson

Peter Stewart

Re: More Kinsfolk: Agnes, Countess of Braine's kinsman,Hugue

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 02 nov 2006 02:51:02

Thanks James - I think the Chiny connection of Ida and her brother Bishop
Adalbero is the only alternative proposed so far that stands up to the
evidence. In my view it can be stated categorically that they were not
children of Count Godfrey of Namur, and I will post further on this when in
reply to the message from Hans Vogels I have time.

Peter Stewart


<Jwc1870@aol.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.192.1162418864.5663.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
Dear Peter,
Intially Douglas was trying to find the relationship
between
Henry I, Duke of Brabant and Blanche of Navarre,regent /Countess of
Champagne
and heiress to her brother King Sancho VI /VII of Navarre, then He
introduced
a document indicating that Ida, wife of Duke Godfrey I of Lower Lorraine
and
Brabant was related to Agnes de Baudemont and of Ida, Countess of Cleves
Finally He discovered that Agnes de Baudemont was a cousin of Hugues de
Garlande, Bishop of Orleans, who was the son of Guido and grandson of
Gilbert,
brother of Guillaume I de Garlande, Senechal of France who was the father
of
Guillaume II which would make the Baudemonts even if He married one no
relation to
the afore mentioned Hugues de Garlande.
Incidently, with the Chiny identification of Ida, I have discovered so
far
that the best relationship to be made for Blanche of Navarre and Henry I,
Duke
of Brabant is He being her 5th cousin once removed via Beatrice ,wife of
Geoffrey, Count of Perche and Adele, wife of Arnold II, Count of Chiny ,
daughters
of Hildouin III de Montdidier, Count of Roucy by Adele of Roucy.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

John P. Ravilious

Re: Sir Walter Stewart 3rd High Steward of Scotland

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 02 nov 2006 02:59:52

Dear Will,

The date Young gives is, about 1244 - not in 1244. Alexander II
was born 24 Aug 1198; his first marriage to Joan of England was when he
was 22 years old, on 19 June 1221 (a late bloomer, I guess). Odds are
quite good, he had fathered Ermengarde and Margery prior to this
marriage .

If Margery was born say 1215 - 1220, and was married to Alan
Durward 1233 - 1238, that would open up the chronology a bit re: the
Bisset daughters. I have not seen any definitive dates re: this, but
will pass any along should I find same.

Cheers,

John



WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 11/1/06 4:50:41 PM Pacific Standard Time, Jwc1870@aol.com
writes:

Yes, Young does say that Alan Durward and Marjorie of
Scotland
were married in about 1244, the year Alexander II made him Justiciar of
Scotia on page 48 of The Comyns.

That she was married in 1244 probably narrows her birth range a bit.
Assuming her three daughters were
1) unknown married John Bisset the younger.
2) Anne married Colbron, 8th Earl of Fife born abt 1245/6 and parents of
Duncan b abt 1262
3) Ermengarde married Patrick, 9th Earl of Dunbar b [correcting CP] 1254/71
and parents of Patrick, 10th Earl born 1271/88

It would appear the three daughters, if the above is them, are in their birth
order above. However John Bisset is stated to have died "abt 1260" which
drastically reduces the amount of time for unknown to have three daughters
herself, to wit: Cecelia (Bisset) Fenton, Elizabeth (Bisset) de Bosco and Muriel
(Bisset) Graham. In fact the daughters, for chronologic reasons all must be born
between 1257 and 1261.

Will Johnson

Peter Stewart

Re: Death date of Queen Bérengère of England, widow of King

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 02 nov 2006 03:25:03

<WJhonson@aol.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.194.1162420258.5663.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
In a message dated 10/31/06 11:46:00 PM Pacific Standard Time,
p_m_stewart@msn.com writes:

Berengaria on the other hand was a
comparative non-entity, who died as a nun.

That statement is sort of sad in a way isn't it?
She had such a bright future. After Richard divorced Alys (Mar 1190 while
at
Messina), he had Berengaria brought to him by his mother the dowager
Eleanor
(of Aquitaine). They were shipwrecked on the way, threated by Comnenus.
Richard came to their rescue, overthrew Comnenus and married Berengaria
right
there in the Chapel of St George, at Limasol, Cyprus.

I mean is that isn't a great romantic storyline I don't know what is. The
white knight rides in, overthrows the evil tyrant holding the princess and
her
guardian and then marries her and everyone lives happily ever after, the
end.

Except of course, later, she returned ahead of him, he was captured and
held
for ransom, which she tried to raise. He was released after a few years
but
evidently didnt rejoin her and had to be ordered to cohabit with her
again, by
a priest, who made references to the story of Sodom.

And then after his death, his evil brother John withheld all or part of
her
rightful dower payments and was in arrears upon his own death to the death
of
some four *thousand* pounds (i.e. a right lot). John's son Henry III,
apparently made up for that.

Is there a date as to when she entered the convent? Her Wikipedia article
makes it appear that it was possibly in her old age. She was only perhaps
30ish
when Richard died.

I don't think this is known exactly. Roderic of Toledo says that she was
praiseworthy in widowhood, charitable and providing a model for women in
chastity and religion. This suggests that she was a veiled widow if not
already a nun from soon after the death of Richard. I vaguely recall that
she took the name Juliana with the habit, and if so that too suggestes she
intended to live in devotion to the saint rather than just being professed
at the point of death.

I'm not sure that hers would have been regarded as an unhappy fate by
medieval people, and certainly Roderic says that her life was fruitful -
meaning in good works rather than offspring, of course. Chastity was an
ideal even in marriage, so that being left alone much of the time by Richard
may not have distressed her as much as similar treatment would a modern
wife, and she evidently chose to retire from the world into religion as
otherwise she might have cut a figure as a merry widow back in Navarre or
elsewhere.

Peter Stewart

Gjest

Re: Alan Durward and the earldom of Atholl

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 nov 2006 03:51:02

Dear John,
Thank You for sharing Hammond`s take on Alan Durward`s
possession of the Earldom of Atholl.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

Gjest

Re: Sir Walter Stewart 3rd High Steward of Scotland

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 nov 2006 04:11:02

In a message dated 11/1/06 6:00:34 PM Pacific Standard Time, therav3@aol.com
writes:

<< If Margery was born say 1215 - 1220, and was married to Alan
Durward 1233 - 1238, that would open up the chronology a bit re: the
Bisset daughters. I have not seen any definitive dates re: this, but
will pass any along should I find same. >>

But remember that he was Earl of Atholl 1233-7 and so presumably 1236 or 7
was when Isabel died. So say he married Marjory in 1237. The key will be to
see what is the source they use to say that he was made Justiciar in the same
year that he married her, as was posted.

Will

Gjest

Re: Giffards of Yester

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 nov 2006 05:16:02

In a message dated 11/1/06 1:35:53 AM Pacific Standard Time, tim@powys.org
writes:

<< Is there any significance to this? And is it likely that one person may
not end up with two ancestral numbers because two people each made
entirely separate entries about them? >>


Sorry Tim I didn't respond earlier. Yes and no.
The Ancestral File was *supposed* to be sort of like the One World Tree in
that the *goal* was each unique person would only get ONE Unique Ancestral File
number. There are cases, and perhaps the majority for all I know, where
people have two or more numbers, but ideally they are supposed to be being merged
into one person. Not sure if the LDS is actually still working the file or not
really. Perhaps Douglas has a clearer picture of what's up with it.

The significance is that, if you have the AF you should have a gateway into
*everything* about the person. That is, every submission for that person
should fall into the single AF. That would be the ideal situation of course.

So similarly when you go into the One World Tree, and find Richard Welby of
London the one who d in 1634, then you should be able to click here and there
to view every submission on him, every document, every conjecture, argument,
etc etc etc. And knowing his unique identifier is how you can jump right *to*
him without searching.

So far, nobody, LDS or ancestry, has lived up to that penultimate goal. But
then we'd all be out of work wouldn't we ?

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Richard Welby of London, Merchant and Susan Rowe

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 nov 2006 05:21:02

And now that I've gone and brought up Richard Welby let me present the state
of my file as of right now on this

The Visitation of London 1633, <a href =
"http://books.google.com/books?vid=LCCN10025458&id=MhfOE9_8AJgC&pg=PA335&lpg=PA335&dq=Henry+Welby&as_brr=1">"Welby"
, page 335</a>

has the family of Welby of Goxhill, of Gedney, of London, etc

I want to touch just on Richard Welby of London, Merchant, married Susan dau
of William Rowe, late Lord Mayor of London

The Visitation lists children as Adlard, Richard, Jane, Dorothy, John,
Edward, Susan, Elizabeth

Adlard then married Elizabeth dau of Robert Brooke and had Richard Welby
eldest, and William Welby

Today I've found the baptisms at Saint Michael Bassishaw, London and I've put
them in baptismal order
Adlard bap 14 Jan 1599
Richard bap 12 Apr 1601
Jane bap 25 Oct 1604
Dorothy bap 23 Nov 1606
John bap 6 Jan 1609
Edward bap 23 Apr 1611
Susan and Elizabeth do not seem to be present

Children of Adlard per the Visitation, and also found in Saint Michael
Bassishaw, London
Richard bap 9 Apr 1628
William bap 14 May 1630

Will Johnson

Douglas Richardson

Re: Death date of Queen Bérengère of England, widow of King

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 02 nov 2006 08:21:32

Dear Newsgroup ~

There is a full length modern biography of Queen Bérengère of
Navarre, widow of King Richard the Lionheart of England, available in
print which is entitled "Berengaria: In Search of Richard the
Lionheart's Queen" (1999), by Ann Trindade. Ms. Trindade indicates
that Queen Bérengère resided at Le Mans for the last thirty years of
her life. In 1216 Bérengère founded a chapel of religious
hospitaliers of Jerusalem at Thorée in Maine. In 1230 she founded a
Cistercian abbey at l'Epau, near Le Mans. She died 23 December 1230,
and was buried at at l'Épau Abbey.

The first two chapters of Ms. Trindade's book can be found at the
following website:

http://www.ctv.es/USERS/sagastibelza/be ... ndade2.htm

Ms. Trindade confronts the long standing myth about Queen Bérengère
being "a passive female who allowed herself to be buffeted around by
the winds of circumstance and never raise a finger on her own behalf."
After thoroughly researching the records of life of Queen Bérengère,
Mr. Trindade concludes:

"In reality, those long years of widowhood reveal, on the basis of the
record, a strong, courageous woman, independent, solitary, battling
against difficult political and economic circumstances, with little
interest in the trappings of a courtly existence, sustained by her
faith in Christ and her royalty to the See of St Peter, not afraid to
assert her rights against powerful enemies, both lay and clerical. All
this was with no sons to champion her cause, no father to protect her
interests, with only the support of her sister and perhaps of her
reclusive brother several hundred miles away whose steadily
deteriorating health made him an unlikely source of assistance. Even
now, the reputation of the dead husband cast a long shadow over his
widow: as an innocent relict of Angevin power she was an embarrassment
to the French and their local clients, including the many opportunists
who had changed sides, and a potential financial liability to her
brother-in-law, King John, and his successor." END OF QUOTE.

For an interesting online account of Queen Bérengère's beautiful
tomb, newsgroup readers may wish to visit the following weblink:

http://www.ctv.es/USERS/sagastibelza/be ... _tumba.htm

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Gjest

Re: Parentage of Christian Sothill Babthorpe

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 nov 2006 08:36:51

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 11/1/06 1:24:42 PM Pacific Standard Time,
mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk writes:

Thomas Hazlerigg, b. 1461, d. 24 May 1541=Lucy Entwisell
Bartine Hazlerigg d. 30 July 1565=Anne dau John Southill
Miles Hazlerigg dvp 28 Nov 1544=Bridget dau Thos Griffin, kt
Thomas b.1543 (etc); & Edward b.1544

Are you certain about the "dvp 1544" above?
The link I pasted says that Thomas was "aged 22 at his father's death"
unless they've mistaken the IPM of his father for his grandfather.
No, I'm not certain, but that's definitely what the quoted pedigree

states. Fletcher I think gives the death of Miles as 1566, but as I
said there are several date discrepancies with the Farnham version.

Gjest

Re: Parentage of Christian Sothill Babthorpe

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 nov 2006 08:56:00

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 11/1/06 1:24:42 PM Pacific Standard Time,
mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk writes:

I got the mysterious name Bartine at that generation from George F
Farnham's 'Leicestershire Medieval Pedigrees' (1925), generally a
pretty good, but obviously not flawless, source. I don't have the page
ref on my photocopy of the pedigree, but it's the

Isn't it odd how serendipity allows me to state that I only *yesterday* first
found this source. I had posted a link in one of my messages today on
another family. And I've added the book as "Leicestershire Pedigrees" to my
jump-page at

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com ... Census.htm

On this particular question the link directly to "Bartine" is page 11 here
http://books.google.com/books?vid=OCLC0 ... 48&lpg=PP4
8&dq=Bartram+Noseley

which tells us "Bertine (or Bartram)" and cites Inq P M 7 Eliz Court of
[cutoff here] vol X no 87

Will, that link seems to be to Fletcher's 1887 work (which I mentioned

later in the post) rather than Farnham's 1925 one- not that it makes
much difference here, but just to clarify.

'Bertine' certainly finds more favour in a web search, eg this page:
http://kinnexions.com/smlawson.hesilrig.htm
which states "Bertine Hesilrige... Name also appears as Bertinus,
Bartram and Bartholomew." So there are several variants of both names
(Farnham gives a couple of generations as Hesilrigge, one as
Hasilrigge, and then changes to Hazlerigg). That page also says Miles
dvp; his will was proved in PCC 3 Feb 1544/5, so that does seem certain.

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: Giffards of Yester

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 02 nov 2006 09:57:02

In message of 2 Nov, WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 11/1/06 1:35:53 AM Pacific Standard Time, tim@powys.org
writes:

Is there any significance to this? And is it likely that one person may
not end up with two ancestral numbers because two people each made
entirely separate entries about them?


Sorry Tim I didn't respond earlier. Yes and no.
The Ancestral File was *supposed* to be sort of like the One World Tree in
that the *goal* was each unique person would only get ONE Unique Ancestral File
number. There are cases, and perhaps the majority for all I know, where
people have two or more numbers, but ideally they are supposed to be being merged
into one person. Not sure if the LDS is actually still working the file or not
really. Perhaps Douglas has a clearer picture of what's up with it.

The significance is that, if you have the AF you should have a gateway into
*everything* about the person. That is, every submission for that person
should fall into the single AF. That would be the ideal situation of course.

So similarly when you go into the One World Tree, and find Richard Welby of
London the one who d in 1634, then you should be able to click here and there
to view every submission on him, every document, every conjecture, argument,
etc etc etc. And knowing his unique identifier is how you can jump right *to*
him without searching.

So far, nobody, LDS or ancestry, has lived up to that penultimate goal. But
then we'd all be out of work wouldn't we ?

Thanks for that - it confirms what most have said about anything of that
sort of origin: use it as a finding aid, believe nothing, check
everything but you save some time in knowing who to look for.

Tim

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/

John P. Ravilious

Re: Sir Walter Stewart 3rd High Steward of Scotland

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 02 nov 2006 12:14:49

Dear Will,

Comments interspersed.


WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 11/1/06 6:00:34 PM Pacific Standard Time, therav3@aol.com
writes:

If Margery was born say 1215 - 1220, and was married to Alan
Durward 1233 - 1238, that would open up the chronology a bit re: the
Bisset daughters. I have not seen any definitive dates re: this, but
will pass any along should I find same.

But remember that he was Earl of Atholl 1233-7 and so presumably 1236 or 7
was when Isabel died. So say he married Marjory in 1237.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<< snip>>>>>>>>>>

Actually, the problem is concerning Alan's tenure as Earl. There
is a modern (according to SP) suggestion that he married Isabel, and
was Earl de jure uxoris. However, see my post of 1 November entitled
"Alan Durward and the earldom of Atholl". Matthew Hammond's
reconstruction shows Alan Durward as _probably_ 1st cousin of Isabel,
and a nephew of her father Earl Henry. This is a slight expansion on
Scots Peerage I:418, which states re: the siblings of Earl Henry,

' The Liber Vitae [of Durham] gives as sisters of Henry:
(1) Bedoch; (2) Cristina; and (3) Margaret. Bedoch
apparently was married and had a son, whose name is
written 'Kelehathonin'. Another sister, perhaps
Cristina or Margaret, seems to have married Thomas of
Lundin, the 'Ostiarius' or Doorward, as in a charter
(dated perhaps in 1202) by Earl Henry, he refers to
his nephew Colin, while Sir Colin of Lundyn appears
at a later date as witness to a charter by Conan,
son of Earl Henry, and he was a younger brother of
Alan the Durward, who held that office form 1233 to
1275. ' [3]

So, we have no actual terminus as to how early Alan Durward and
Margery were married.

Cheers,

John


The key will be to
see what is the source they use to say that he was made Justiciar in the same
year that he married her, as was posted.

Will

Doug McDonald

Re: Giffards of Yester

Legg inn av Doug McDonald » 02 nov 2006 15:02:42

Sorry Tim I didn't respond earlier. Yes and no.
The Ancestral File was *supposed* to be sort of like the One World Tree in
that the *goal* was each unique person would only get ONE Unique Ancestral File
number. There are cases, and perhaps the majority for all I know, where
people have two or more numbers, but ideally they are supposed to be being merged
into one person. Not sure if the LDS is actually still working the file or not
really. Perhaps Douglas has a clearer picture of what's up with it.

The significance is that, if you have the AF you should have a gateway into
*everything* about the person. That is, every submission for that person
should fall into the single AF. That would be the ideal situation of course.

So similarly when you go into the One World Tree, and find Richard Welby of
London the one who d in 1634, then you should be able to click here and there
to view every submission on him, every document, every conjecture, argument,
etc etc etc. And knowing his unique identifier is how you can jump right *to*
him without searching.

So far, nobody, LDS or ancestry, has lived up to that penultimate goal.


But ... but ... has Leo? That's the question. He's pretty
close, at least.

Of course, he's basically restricted to people with known
medieval relatives. Not entirely, but mostly. AF and OWT
are supposed to include everybody who ever lived.

Doug McDonald

Gjest

Re: Sir Walter Stewart 3rd High Steward of Scotland

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 nov 2006 16:21:02

In a message dated 11/2/2006 3:16:22 AM Pacific Standard Time,
therav3@aol.com writes:

Actually, the problem is concerning Alan's tenure as Earl. There
is a modern (according to SP) suggestion that he married Isabel, and
was Earl de jure uxoris


I guess this leads back to the questions
1) Was he Earl at all? and if so based on what document? and
2) What years was he Earl?

Will

Gjest

Re: Giffards of Yester

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 nov 2006 16:26:02

In a message dated 11/2/2006 6:06:29 AM Pacific Standard Time,
mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu writes:

But ... but ... has Leo? That's the question. He's pretty
close, at least.



No. One of my chores... sometime.... will be to post the number of people
in the great databases (where "great" means in terms of numbers, not
necessarily quality). Thepeerage.com, stirnet.com, genealogics.org, tudorplace.com.ar

I would suspect *possibly* that thepeerage has more, but not sure. But I'm
94% certain that none of them include every medieval person cited in any of
the rest. That is none of them is a subset of any of the others.

Now we need a Meta-Site that will simply reference them all in a meaningful
way...not that I'm working on it or anything.

Will

Chuck Owens

Re: Was George Chauncy's wife Ann (Welch) Humberston or Agne

Legg inn av Chuck Owens » 02 nov 2006 17:47:58

According to the Visitation of Hertfordshire 1634 for the Chauncy
family, page 39, George Chauncy's wife was Anne Welch.

Chuck Owens

Gjest

Re: Parentage of Christian Sothill Babthorpe

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 nov 2006 21:43:03

In a message dated 11/2/06 12:00:56 AM Pacific Standard Time,
mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk writes:

<< So there are several variants of both names
(Farnham gives a couple of generations as Hesilrigge, one as
Hasilrigge, and then changes to Hazlerigg). That page also says Miles
dvp; his will was proved in PCC 3 Feb 1544/5, so that does seem certain. >>


What it *must* be then I suppose is that the "Inq P M 7 Eliz Court of [cutoff
here] vol X no 87" must be actually for Bartram and not Miles and Fletcher
got it wrong or at least published it wrong.

By the way, does anyone have an idea what this "Court of [lacuna] Vol X no
87" refers to? Which Court ?

Thanks
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Parentage of Christian Sothill Babthorpe

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 nov 2006 21:48:02

In a message dated 11/2/06 9:51:11 AM Pacific Standard Time,
royaldescent@hotmail.com writes:

<< I've stumbled across the source for that date. John Gough Nichols,
'Register of the Sepulchral Inscriptions Existing Temp. Hen. VIII. in
the Church of the Grey Friars, London' in "Collectanea Topographica and
Genealogica" Vol. 5 (1838), p. 289: "Christine Bedell uxr Willi Bedell
armig et filia Henrici Suttel de Stokfaston de com Lecestre armig; ob.
8 Apr. 1540."

However Nichols dates the manuscript listing the burials to the 1530s,
and Christina is the only death that occurs on the list after the year
1531. >>

So you're saying (I think) that its' likely this is a misreading and maybe
(my thought here) that it should be 1504 not 1540 which would be a simple
mistake either in the register itself, the transcribing of it, or the publication.

Will

Gjest

Re: Sir Walter Stewart 3rd High Steward of Scotland

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 nov 2006 22:27:02

I do understand your point about Alan being possibly the first cousin of
Isabel, but Isabel herself had a son Patrick who was later 1237-42 Earl of Atholl,
so it would *seem* that Isabel would be Countess of Atholl from the death of
her husband Thomas of Galloway, 4th Count of Atholl who died between 1231 and
1234.

But at this point, perhaps Alan as a male, putatively descended from Malcolm
would have spoken up and claimed the Earldom. Of course this would also mean
that "Conan" is dead and that Forblaith's husband David de Hastings was just
hanging out silently even though he would be more in-line to be Earl than Alan
would under this scenario.

I have that this David was, in fact Earl, but I don't have the dates for that
yet. I do show he died between 1244 and 1247 and Forblaith survived him
until at least 1254.

Also electricscotland.com says that Alan "assumed" the style of Earl of Atholl

http://www.electricscotland.com/webclan ... ter1s1.htm
"...He assumed the title and style of Earl of Athole from 1233 to 1235;..."
but they say this without citation f.w.i.w.

Also in 1257 he claimed the entire Earldom of Mar, I suppose on the strength
of his grandmother Unknown Mar who married Malcolm de Lundie and was the
daughter of Gilchrist, 3rd Earl of Mar

Will

Alex Maxwell Findlater

Re: Sir Walter Stewart 3rd High Steward of Scotland

Legg inn av Alex Maxwell Findlater » 02 nov 2006 23:35:33

I think we can be pretty confident that he was not Earl of Atholl in
his own right. The question is then, in whose right was he. It can
only be as the husband of a countess suo jure or as the guardian of a
minor, who was the heir of the previous earl. Later this position
became formalized a "tutor", so if you were under age when you
inherited, you had a tutor, who was usually the nearest male relative,
so most often an uncle.

In the Atholl situation it seems to me that there was no available male
relative, which is, I presume, why Durward was the guardian and used
the title of Earl, as representing the earldom during that period.
That is unless he was married to Isabel, but I am unaware of any
evidence for that. As far as I recollect most of the evidence for the
Atholl descent comes from a manuscript of Sir James Balfour of Delmilne
(d 1657), so is firstly hardly contemporary and secondly is normally
regarded as being suspect. However, if you saw the rough scribbles
which I use for my attempts to analyse genealogy, you'd think I was
pretty suspect. Perhaps you do in any case!

Leo van de Pas

Several things was Re: Giffards of Yester

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 02 nov 2006 23:51:01

So far, nobody, LDS or ancestry, has lived up to that penultimate goal.


But ... but ... has Leo? That's the question. He's pretty
close, at least.

Of course, he's basically restricted to people with known
medieval relatives. Not entirely, but mostly. AF and OWT
are supposed to include everybody who ever lived.

Doug McDonald

Dear Doug,

Shock horror :-)
When I was young I was frustrated with books. You have a book in front of
you and all you get is what is in that book. Unbeknown a book next to it may
have the ancestors of a wife in the first book, and _if only_ you could
combine the two books you would have so much more. This is what I am trying
to do with genealogics. People do not need to have medieaval ancestors to be
included in genealogics, if that was the case I would not be in it. I would
not know how to check (perhaps Ian Fettes can) how many of the people
mentioned on genealogics of the last and present century have ancestors back
to medieval times, but I don't know whether it would be a large percentage.

One thing I about gen-med, when people refer to me, I wish they would
instead refer to the source at the bottom of the page of almost everyone. I
have seen "Leo has..." But I do not have, I try to steer people to the
sources. Also I have found that some people, not contributing to gen-med,
have access to superb sources and some of these have started to correct and
add to genealogics. Lately the Scandinavian part of genealogics has
increased and improved incredibly and hopefully will for quite some time.
Also in these Scandinavian contributions often great biographical remarks
have been made and I try to record those as well.

One great problem affects most of us and that is language, whether it is
Latin, medieval Latin or modern languages. There are some great genealogical
books but in a language most of us can not comprehend. How many could cope
with Miha Preinfalk's "Auerspergi Po Sledeh Mogocnega Tura"? I have on loan
this superb book but would not dare extract information as mistakes are too
easily made.

Language barriers are more insidious than we may imagine. This was pointed
out when I arrived in Australia. What many people do not understand is that
people learning a new language often continue "speaking" their own language
but simply translate the words. Habits are transferred as well. I was told
the Dutch were regarded as arrogant, and I asked why. I was told that the
Dutch were always telling people what to do.
It took me a while to realise what was going on. If you in Holland ask for
advise, the reply used to be "If I were you then you must do so and so...."
After a while the "If I were you" was dropped because everyone knew that
this was intended, but in Australia the "You must do so and so" created the
arrogant label.

I hope that this weekend or early next week, genealogics will be updated
again, there will be over 495,000 entries in my segment, and please, have a
look at the superb picture of the tomb of Berengaria, the widow of Richard
the Lionheart.
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas

Gjest

Re: Several things was Re: Giffards of Yester

Legg inn av Gjest » 03 nov 2006 00:02:03

In a message dated 11/2/06 2:51:47 PM Pacific Standard Time,
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au writes:

<< there will be over 495,000 entries in my segment, >>

What do you mean by "my segment" ?
Are there other segments that other people control ?

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Sir Walter Stewart 3rd High Steward of Scotland

Legg inn av Gjest » 03 nov 2006 00:03:02

In a message dated 11/2/06 2:41:11 PM Pacific Standard Time,
maxwellfindlater@hotmail.com writes:

<< I think we can be pretty confident that he was not Earl of Atholl in
his own right. >>

Actually I think John is trying to say that he possibly *was* Earl in his own
right. Or at least that he claimed to be. Otherwise, I don't see the
significance of saying that he might have been the first cousin of Isabel.

Will

Leo van de Pas

Re: Several things was Re: Giffards of Yester

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 03 nov 2006 01:07:29

Yes, on the front page is Jenni Martin with WA Pioneers. To see how this
works go to quick search and only enter Glaskin, you will find many
repeated, her entries and mine. Every entry is clearly marked as WA Pioneers
or Leo.
Leo
----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au>; <mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu>
Cc: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 10:01 AM
Subject: Re: Several things was Re: Giffards of Yester


In a message dated 11/2/06 2:51:47 PM Pacific Standard Time,
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au writes:

there will be over 495,000 entries in my segment,

What do you mean by "my segment" ?
Are there other segments that other people control ?

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Sir Walter Stewart 3rd High Steward of Scotland

Legg inn av Gjest » 03 nov 2006 01:42:02

Dear Will,
Not might have been... Alan Durward was Isabel`s 1st cousin.
John mentioned a charter in which Colin Durward, the youngest brother of Alan
was referred to as nephew by Earl Henry of Atholl, Isabel`s father. hopefully
It is clearer then a statement that Colin was Henry`s cognatus.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

Gjest

Re: Sir Walter Stewart 3rd High Steward of Scotland

Legg inn av Gjest » 03 nov 2006 01:50:02

In a message dated 11/2/06 4:40:13 PM Pacific Standard Time, Jwc1870@aol.com
writes:

<< Colin Durward, the youngest brother of Alan
was referred to as nephew by Earl Henry of Atholl, Isabel`s father.
hopefully
It is clearer then a statement that Colin was Henry`s cognatus. >>

The turn of phrase you've used here however is stronger than that posted by
John who was quoting ONE of the versions supplied by SP which Matthew Hammond
felt most likely. The situation is not clear-cut but rather built on arguments
about who was who.

1) Earl Henry refers to his nephew Colin
2) A Sir Colin de Lundin exists, at a later date, as a witness to a charter
by Conan the son of Earl Henry.

If in fact Colin (1) is the same person as Colin (2) then Colin and Conan
would be apparently first cousins. However you'd still have to make that
assumption and also that Henry would not refer to the *husband* of a niece as a
"nephew". And perhaps a few more assumptions.

But the issue still remains that if assuming Conan is dead v.p., and that
Alan was "usurping" the Earldom, then what happened to Countess Isabel and her
sister Forblaith ?

As I posted, electricscotland states that Alan "assumed" the title or styled
himself, if you will. Doesn't really sound very clean and neat, sounds like
maybe it was messy and confrontational.

Will Johnson

John P. Ravilious

Re: Sir Walter Stewart 3rd High Steward of Scotland

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 03 nov 2006 02:27:22

Thursday, 2 November, 2006



Dear Will, James, Alex, et al.,

Following is the (or a ) relevant excerpt from Matthew Hammond.

' Sometime between 11 September and 12 October 1233, Alan
Durward confirmed a gift of his father's to Arbroath abbey.
In it, he styles himself 'doorward of the lord king of
Scotland, earl of Atholl' <68>. Alexander II does not call
him 'earl of Atholl' in his confirmation of that grant,
dated at Kintore, 12 October 1233, but the king did
acknowledge Alan as earl in charters dated at Lanark,
9 January 1234, St. Andrews, Christmas Day, 1234, and
Aberdeen, 23 February 1235 <69>. What right did Alan
have as earl? As has been noted, Earl Henry had a
presumably illegitimate son named Conan, who gave
easements of his woods at 'Glenerrichidie', perhaps
Glen Errochty, and 'Tulach' to the monks of Coupar <70>.
Conan also granted to Lindores abbey timber from his
wood at 'Tulyhen' between 1219 and 1242 <71>. Sir Colin
de Lundin, Alan Durward's brother, witnessed this charter.
In a charter to St. Andrews Priory dated 1189x1198, Henry
earl of Atholl referred to a 'Colin my nephew' (Colino
nepote meo) <72>. If he was Colin de Lundin (Colin is
an uncommon name in contemporary charters), that would
make Alan Earl Henry's nephew, which would presumably
make Thomas Durward the brother-in-law of Earl Henry.
Thus, Thomas Durward's wife was probably the daughter of
Earl Malcolm by either Hextilda or Earl Henry's mother,
whose name is unknown. The latter is more likely,
because the inheritance seems to have passed to Alan
Durward, not by marriage, but as the closest male heir,
after Patrick. The king must have simply favoured a
loyal adult subject, wishing to avoid the difficulties
that could arise from a minority or a wardship. ' [1]

You will note the frequent uses of uncertainty - 'presumably',
'probably', 'more likely'. The Durward family was well connected
(with the earls of Mar earlier, and then with Alan Durward's
marriage to Margery of Scotland), but the Atholl connection remains
unproved, I fear.

Note also, Conan (son of Earl Henry) is a non-issue. He was
illegitimate, although a major Atholl landholder thanks to his
father (and possibly a good marriage). Hammond's guesses are as
good as we're going to get, given the tenure of the earldom of
Atholl in the 13th century.

Cheers

John


NOTES

[1] Matthew Hammond, The Durward family in the thirteenth century,
in Steve Boardman and Alasdair Ross, eds., The Exercise
of Power in Medieval Scotland (Dublin: Four Courts Press,
2003), pp. 127-8.
The following are some of Hammond's notes:

<68> Arbroath Liber, no. 128.
<69> Holyrood Liber, no. 93; RRS, v, no. 346; Arbroath Liber,
no. 102; Moray Reg., no. 114; RRS, vi, no. 49. Duncan's
notion that Alan was the earl of Atholl who witnessed
a 1237 letter from the barons to the pope is surely
mistaken. Alan witnessed six royal charters between
7 July 1235 and 20 Oct. 1237. In none of these does he
call himself earl (cf. Mort. Reg., i, xxxv, App. 3; Moray
Reg., no. 37 and at Carte Originales, no. 11; Glas. Reg.,
no. 174 and 175; Dunf. Reg., no. 75).
<70> C. A. Rent., no. 37. The late breviary, which sometimes
has difficulties with medieval names, mistakenly copies
Conan as 'Cumingi.'
<71> Lind. Cart., no. 73. John de Hastings, father of the
later earl of Atholl David de Hastings, is a witness
to this charter......






WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 11/2/06 4:40:13 PM Pacific Standard Time, Jwc1870@aol.com
writes:

Colin Durward, the youngest brother of Alan
was referred to as nephew by Earl Henry of Atholl, Isabel`s father.
hopefully
It is clearer then a statement that Colin was Henry`s cognatus.

The turn of phrase you've used here however is stronger than that posted by
John who was quoting ONE of the versions supplied by SP which Matthew Hammond
felt most likely. The situation is not clear-cut but rather built on arguments
about who was who.

1) Earl Henry refers to his nephew Colin
2) A Sir Colin de Lundin exists, at a later date, as a witness to a charter
by Conan the son of Earl Henry.

If in fact Colin (1) is the same person as Colin (2) then Colin and Conan
would be apparently first cousins. However you'd still have to make that
assumption and also that Henry would not refer to the *husband* of a niece as a
"nephew". And perhaps a few more assumptions.

But the issue still remains that if assuming Conan is dead v.p., and that
Alan was "usurping" the Earldom, then what happened to Countess Isabel and her
sister Forblaith ?

As I posted, electricscotland states that Alan "assumed" the title or styled
himself, if you will. Doesn't really sound very clean and neat, sounds like
maybe it was messy and confrontational.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: SP Correction: the issue of Duncan, earl of Fife (d. 120

Legg inn av Gjest » 03 nov 2006 03:44:02

Dear John,
What about Aufrica whom you gave in a earlier post as wife
of either Gilbert of Galloway or his son Duncan, Earl of Carrick ? Or was She a
daughter of Duncan II`s father Earl Duncan I of Fife?
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

John P. Ravilious

Re: SP Correction: the issue of Duncan, earl of Fife (d. 120

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 03 nov 2006 03:50:19

Dear James,

Aufrica was a sister of Earl Duncan (d. 1204), and daughter of
Earl Duncan 'the elder' (d. 1154). She was married (2ndly) to Gilbert,
earl of Carrick: her son Duncan, earl of Carrick (born ca. 1170
according to Andrew MacEwen) was a contemporary of his Fife cousins,
Malcolm, Duncan, et al.

Cheers,

John



Jwc1...@aol.com wrote:
Dear John,
What about Aufrica whom you gave in a earlier post as wife
of either Gilbert of Galloway or his son Duncan, Earl of Carrick ? Or was She a
daughter of Duncan II`s father Earl Duncan I of Fife?
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

Gjest

Re: Sir Walter Stewart 3rd High Steward of Scotland

Legg inn av Gjest » 03 nov 2006 03:52:54

Thanks John for that long extract. I would say it's reading too much at
parts and too little at parts :)

For example, say the king grants Atholl to his Doreward as a male descendent.
Why was it taken away a few years alter and granted to Patrick? The
Doreward was still alive and not feeble, it doesn't make a lot of sense without a
context that the king was displeased with him in some way.

Also stating that Conan was "presumably" illegitimate is, I fear, circular
based on his non-inheritence of Atholl.

And I'm just not sure I see anything against the counter-argument that
perhaps Alan married Isabel and that Colin instead of being a blood nephew was a
nephew by marriage to a daughter of Henry's. Or some other arrangement.

But maybe there is some reasonable explanation for why the Doreward would
just bow out of Atholl in favor of a first cousin once removed who had already
been dispossessed of it (to a modern view).

Alan the Doreward was a ambitious and grasping fellow, I can't believe he'd
abandon it like that.

Will

Gjest

Re: SP Correction: the issue of Duncan, earl of Fife (d. 120

Legg inn av Gjest » 03 nov 2006 04:05:03

Dear John , Thank You for straightening that out.
Sincerely,

James W Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA

Douglas Richardson

Re: Kinsfolk of Blanche of Navarre: Brabant, Vermandois, Bau

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 03 nov 2006 05:16:20

Dear Stewart ~

Thank you for your post. Much appreciated.

I had the opportunity to go to the Family History Library today and was
able to check the volume of Knetsch available on microfilm.

Unfortunately page 18 was not microfilmed with the volume, so I was
unable to check the desired page. I did find a chart elsewhere in the
book which identified Ida, first wife of Duke Godfrey I, as daughter of
Albert III, Count of Namur.

Although page 18 was missing, I did find something else. Looking at
later generations, I noticed that Ida's descendant, Henry I, Duke of
Lorraine and Brabant (died 1235), married (2nd) in 1213 Marie of
France, widow of Henry's cousin, Philip, Count of Namur. Checking
their respective ancestries, it seems that Duke Henry I and Count
Philip would be related in the 4th and 4th degrees of kindred, if Duke
Henry I's great-grandmother, Ida, was the daughter of Albert III, Count
of Namur as stated by Knetsch. And, they would be related in the 4th
and 3rd degrees of kindred, if Duke Henry's great-grandmother, Ida, was
the daughter of Godfrey, Count of Namur, as suggested here on the
newsgroup by Hans Vogel. Either set of kinship would have required a
dispensation for Duke Henry I to marry Count Philip's widow, Marie of
France.

I had limited time today but I quickly checked the shelf for Patrick
van Kerrebrouck's book, Les Capétians 987-1328, to see if he
mentioned if Mary of France obtained a dispensation to marry Duke Henry
I. Unfortunately the Kerrebrouck volume was not on the shelf.

Be that as it may, perhaps someone familiar with the French royal
family can tell us if Kerrebrouck or another source mentions if there
was a dispensation for the marriage of Henry and Marie. If such a
dispensation exists, it would help prove the place of Duke Henry I's
great-grandmother, Ida, in the Namur family. And that would be great
news!

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

95 Thesen

Re: Death date of Queen Bérengère of England, widow of King

Legg inn av 95 Thesen » 03 nov 2006 09:22:01

Douglas Richardson wrote:
Dear Newsgroup ~

There is a full length modern biography of Queen Bérengère of
Navarre, widow of King Richard the Lionheart of England, available in
print which is entitled "Berengaria: In Search of Richard the
Lionheart's Queen" (1999), by Ann Trindade. Ms. Trindade indicates
that Queen Bérengère resided at Le Mans for the last thirty years of
her life. In 1216 Bérengère founded a chapel of religious
hospitaliers of Jerusalem at Thorée in Maine. In 1230 she founded a
Cistercian abbey at l'Epau, near Le Mans. She died 23 December 1230,
and was buried at at l'Épau Abbey.

The first two chapters of Ms. Trindade's book can be found at the
following website:

http://www.ctv.es/USERS/sagastibelza/be ... ndade2.htm

Ms. Trindade confronts the long standing myth about Queen Bérengère
being "a passive female who allowed herself to be buffeted around by
the winds of circumstance and never raise a finger on her own behalf."
After thoroughly researching the records of life of Queen Bérengère,
Mr. Trindade concludes:

"In reality, those long years of widowhood reveal, on the basis of the
record, a strong, courageous woman, independent, solitary, battling
against difficult political and economic circumstances, with little
interest in the trappings of a courtly existence, sustained by her
faith in Christ and her royalty to the See of St Peter, not afraid to
assert her rights against powerful enemies, both lay and clerical. All
this was with no sons to champion her cause, no father to protect her
interests, with only the support of her sister and perhaps of her
reclusive brother several hundred miles away whose steadily
deteriorating health made him an unlikely source of assistance. Even
now, the reputation of the dead husband cast a long shadow over his
widow: as an innocent relict of Angevin power she was an embarrassment
to the French and their local clients, including the many opportunists
who had changed sides, and a potential financial liability to her
brother-in-law, King John, and his successor." END OF QUOTE.

For an interesting online account of Queen Bérengère's beautiful
tomb, newsgroup readers may wish to visit the following weblink:

http://www.ctv.es/USERS/sagastibelza/be ... _tumba.htm

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Was there not a British P & O passenger steamship called the
Berengaria ?

David H
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Andrew Chaplin

Re: Death date of Queen Bérengère of England, widow of King

Legg inn av Andrew Chaplin » 03 nov 2006 12:01:30

"95 Thesen" <dcholiman@ev1.net> wrote in message
news:1162542121.810648.322190@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...

Douglas Richardson wrote:
Dear Newsgroup ~

There is a full length modern biography of Queen Bérengère of
Navarre, widow of King Richard the Lionheart of England, available in
print which is entitled "Berengaria: In Search of Richard the
Lionheart's Queen" (1999), by Ann Trindade. Ms. Trindade indicates
that Queen Bérengère resided at Le Mans for the last thirty years of
her life. In 1216 Bérengère founded a chapel of religious
hospitaliers of Jerusalem at Thorée in Maine. In 1230 she founded a
Cistercian abbey at l'Epau, near Le Mans. She died 23 December 1230,
and was buried at at l'Épau Abbey.

The first two chapters of Ms. Trindade's book can be found at the
following website:

http://www.ctv.es/USERS/sagastibelza/be ... ndade2.htm

Ms. Trindade confronts the long standing myth about Queen Bérengère
being "a passive female who allowed herself to be buffeted around by
the winds of circumstance and never raise a finger on her own behalf."
After thoroughly researching the records of life of Queen Bérengère,
Mr. Trindade concludes:

"In reality, those long years of widowhood reveal, on the basis of the
record, a strong, courageous woman, independent, solitary, battling
against difficult political and economic circumstances, with little
interest in the trappings of a courtly existence, sustained by her
faith in Christ and her royalty to the See of St Peter, not afraid to
assert her rights against powerful enemies, both lay and clerical. All
this was with no sons to champion her cause, no father to protect her
interests, with only the support of her sister and perhaps of her
reclusive brother several hundred miles away whose steadily
deteriorating health made him an unlikely source of assistance. Even
now, the reputation of the dead husband cast a long shadow over his
widow: as an innocent relict of Angevin power she was an embarrassment
to the French and their local clients, including the many opportunists
who had changed sides, and a potential financial liability to her
brother-in-law, King John, and his successor." END OF QUOTE.

For an interesting online account of Queen Bérengère's beautiful
tomb, newsgroup readers may wish to visit the following weblink:

http://www.ctv.es/USERS/sagastibelza/be ... _tumba.htm

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Was there not a British P & O passenger steamship called the
Berengaria ?

David H
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

She was a Cunarder, but was actually launched as the HAPAG ship IMPERATOR,
turned over after the war to make up for the sunk LUSITANIA.
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)

Bob Turcott

Re: More Medieval Kinsfolk: King Henry I of England's kinsma

Legg inn av Bob Turcott » 03 nov 2006 17:57:45

Doug,

Slightly off topic:

Can you shed any light on Robert the magnificent William the Conqueror's
father?
Sometimes folks refer to Robert as Robert The Devil and some call him Robert
the Magnificent.

I was told That sometimes folks can get mixed up with another Medieval
person refered to as the Devil, who is the other person sometimes refered to
as the Devil other than Robert The Magnificent?

I would like to learn about this if I can.

Bob


From: royalancestry@msn.com
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: More Medieval Kinsfolk: King Henry I of England's kinsman,Pope
Calixtus II
Date: 3 Nov 2006 08:10:26 -0800

Dear Newsgroup ~

As a followup to my earlier posts, I can now report that King Henry I
of England's near kinship to Pope Calixtus II was directly addressed by
the chronicler Orderic Vitalis. Orderic wrote the following regarding
the meeting of King Henry I and Pope Calixtus II at Gisors in 1119:

"In November [1119] Pope Calixtus came into Normandy, and discussed the
restoration of peace with the king [Henry I] at Gisors. The great king
received him honourably and, falling prostrate at his feet, showed him
respect and reverence, acknowledging him to be the shepherd of the
whole Church and his own kinsman. When he had humbled himself the Pope
raised him kindly, blessed him in the name of the Lord, and gave him
the kiss of peace, after which they embraced each other joyfully."
[Reference: Marjorie Chibnall, The Ecclesiastical History of Orderic
Vitalis, 6 (1980): 282-283].

Pope Calixtus II and King Henry I of England were related in the 3rd
and 3rd degrees of kindred (or if you prefer 2nd cousins), by virtue of
their common descent from Richard II, Duke of Normandy (died 1027), as
set forth below:

1. Richard II, Duke of Normandy, died 1027.
2. Adeliza of Normandy, married Renaud I, Count of Burgundy.
3. Guillaume I, Count of Burgundy, died 1087.
4. Pope Calixtus II (Guy of Burgundy), died 1124.

1. Richard II, Duke of Normandy, died 1027.
2. Robert, Duke of Normandy, died 1035.
3. William the Conqueror, King of England, died 1087.
4. King Henry I of England, died 1135.

Special thanks go to Ginny Wagner for providing me a copy of the two
pages in question from Orderic Vitalis. Much appreciated, Ginny.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah


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_________________________________________________________________
Add a Yahoo! contact to Windows Live Messenger for a chance to win a free
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Gjest

Re: John Tyrrell 1478 parentage

Legg inn av Gjest » 03 nov 2006 22:51:03

In a message dated 11/3/06 7:00:55 AM Pacific Standard Time, tnewcomb@aol.com
writes:

<< Has there been any suggestion of the parentage of John Tyrrell, born
around 1478 in Little Warley, and who married Ann Norreys? I can't
help but wonder if he is the son of Humphry Tyrrell (born about 1444)
of Little Warley and probably his first wife Isabel Helion. >>

What is your source for saying that Humphrey was born about 1444 ?
Thanks
Will Johnson

Paul K Davis

RE: 1698 marriage of Moses Hawks and 'Mrs.' Margerit Cogeswe

Legg inn av Paul K Davis » 03 nov 2006 23:37:21

I have seen, from this period of time, birth entries in parish registers in
Shropshire giving the child the title "mrs." I believe it did not have the
modern connotation of a married woman, but was rather an indication of
social rank - something like "lady".

-- PKD [Paul K Davis, pkd-gm@earthlink.net]


[Original Message]
From: John Brandon <starbuck95@hotmail.com
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Date: 10/25/2006 7:51:02 AM
Subject: 1698 marriage of Moses Hawks and 'Mrs.' Margerit Cogeswell


http://books.google.com/books?vid=OCLC0 ... RA2-PA177&

lpg=RA2-PA177&dq=elizabeth+cogswell+hawkes
Margaret Cogswell, eldest daughter (and eldest child) of John and
Margaret Gifford Cogswell, is here given the title of "Mrs."
Interestingly, my ancestress, her sister Elizabeth, who married Moses
Hawks' half-brother Ebenezer, was not called "Mrs." in *her* marriage
record (shown on the same page).


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quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Peter Stewart

Re: Kinsfolk of Blanche of Navarre: Brabant, Vermandois, Bau

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 04 nov 2006 01:33:02

"Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1162527380.360048.47210@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Dear Stewart ~

Thank you for your post. Much appreciated.

I had the opportunity to go to the Family History Library today and was
able to check the volume of Knetsch available on microfilm.

Unfortunately page 18 was not microfilmed with the volume, so I was
unable to check the desired page. I did find a chart elsewhere in the
book which identified Ida, first wife of Duke Godfrey I, as daughter of
Albert III, Count of Namur.

Although page 18 was missing, I did find something else. Looking at
later generations, I noticed that Ida's descendant, Henry I, Duke of
Lorraine and Brabant (died 1235), married (2nd) in 1213 Marie of
France, widow of Henry's cousin, Philip, Count of Namur. Checking
their respective ancestries, it seems that Duke Henry I and Count
Philip would be related in the 4th and 4th degrees of kindred, if Duke
Henry I's great-grandmother, Ida, was the daughter of Albert III, Count
of Namur as stated by Knetsch. And, they would be related in the 4th
and 3rd degrees of kindred, if Duke Henry's great-grandmother, Ida, was
the daughter of Godfrey, Count of Namur, as suggested here on the
newsgroup by Hans Vogel. Either set of kinship would have required a
dispensation for Duke Henry I to marry Count Philip's widow, Marie of
France.

I had limited time today but I quickly checked the shelf for Patrick
van Kerrebrouck's book, Les Capétians 987-1328, to see if he
mentioned if Mary of France obtained a dispensation to marry Duke Henry
I. Unfortunately the Kerrebrouck volume was not on the shelf.

Be that as it may, perhaps someone familiar with the French royal
family can tell us if Kerrebrouck or another source mentions if there
was a dispensation for the marriage of Henry and Marie. If such a
dispensation exists, it would help prove the place of Duke Henry I's
great-grandmother, Ida, in the Namur family. And that would be great
news!

This is not the kind of information that Kerrebrouck could be relied on to
give, if there was such a dispensation. (And of course it is preposterous
anyway to suppose that such evidence would have been overlooked by countless
scholars.)

You were already consulting the work that should provide a reference of this
kind, Knetsch. Obviously it would not have been on the missing page 18, so
why did you neglect to look for it in the appropriate place after proceeding
to later generations?

Is your German perhaps as poor as your French and Latin? If so, why not at
least try to prepare yourself minimally before tackling European
scholarship?

Peter Stewart

Gjest

Re: Queen Elizabeth, a descendent of Richard Cecil

Legg inn av Gjest » 04 nov 2006 06:10:03

In fourteen generations as follows
Elizabeth b 1926, II, Queen of England 1952-
Elizabeth Angela Marguerite /Bowes-Lyon/ b 1900
Nina Cecilia /Cavendish-Bentinck/ 1862-1938
Charles /Cavendish-Bentin/ 1817-65
William Charles /Cavendish-Bentinck/ d 1826
Dorothy /Cavendish/ 1750-94
William Cavendish 1720-64, 4th Duke of /Devonshire/
William Cavendish 1698-1755, 3rd Duke of /Devonshire/
William Cavendish 1672-1729, 2nd Duke of /Devonshire/
William Cavendish 1641-1707, 4th Earl and 1st Duke of /Devonshire/
Elizabeth /Cecil/ 1620-89
William Cecil 1591-1668, 2nd Earl of /Salisbury/
Robert Cecil 1563-1612, 1st Earl of /Salisbury/ 1605-
William Cecil 1520-1598, Knt 1551 , 1st Baron /Burghley/ 1571-1598
Richard /Cecil/ d 19 Mar 1552/3 Esq, of Burghley, Northamptonshire


Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: A Plantagenet Ancestry for William Wentworth of NH ?

Legg inn av Gjest » 04 nov 2006 07:08:01

In a message dated 11/3/2006 4:53:51 PM Pacific Standard Time,
terryjbooth@sbcglobal.net writes:

14. [was 12]. Richard Sotehill = Agnes ------

15. [was 13]. Isabel Sotehill = Oliver Wentworth

16. [was 14]. William Wentworth = Ellen Gilby


The back of my mind is saying there's a flaw in this section, but all my
notes are at my office. I was just today working on Oliver Wentworth too.
Strange how that works.

You'll probably get an answer before I can get back to my notes, but perhaps
if you try to assign some dates to these people you might see something
amiss.

Will Johnson

Nathaniel Taylor

Re: A Plantagenet Ancestry for William Wentworth of NH ?

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 04 nov 2006 07:30:43

In article <mailman.74.1162620368.32209.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>,
WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 11/3/2006 4:53:51 PM Pacific Standard Time,
terryjbooth@sbcglobal.net writes:

14. [was 12]. Richard Sotehill = Agnes ------

15. [was 13]. Isabel Sotehill = Oliver Wentworth

16. [was 14]. William Wentworth = Ellen Gilby


The back of my mind is saying there's a flaw in this section, but all my
notes are at my office. I was just today working on Oliver Wentworth too.
Strange how that works.

You'll probably get an answer before I can get back to my notes, but perhaps
if you try to assign some dates to these people you might see something
amiss.

We're all ears.

Nat Taylor
http://www.nltaylor.net

Terry J Booth

Re: A Plantagenet Ancestry for William Wentworth of NH ?

Legg inn av Terry J Booth » 04 nov 2006 16:02:32

Will,

It is great to hear you are working on the Wentworths and that we can expect
you to provide more of your always valuable research and comments.

The generations you note are actually after the interim generations 9-12
bridge my posting added to the existing PA and RD600 genealogy. In this
instance it is a potential RD600 problem. I would suggest adding generation
13 (------ Percehay/Pereshay = Sir Gerard Sotehill) to your list as well,
since I suspect there may be a missing Sotehill generation between Sir
Gerard and Isabel based on the chronology. That may perhaps be your
chronology problem as well. As you know, the Sotehill pedigrees are
notoriously misleading and often incomplete, one major reason being they
reuse the same names (Henry, Gerard etc) so much it is difficult to tell if
the persons referenced are of the same or a different generation.

You are no doubt aware of Weis' MCS comment on page 95 (online in
ancestry.com library,
http://content.ancestry.com/browse/book ... eties-0119)
which has always baffled me. While MCS shows generation 17 William as the
son of generation 16 Oliver Wentworth, there is this odd comment between
them "The parentage of William [Wentworth] . . . has not been determined."
This despite the existence of a will for Oliver. Why show a line if it is
questionable?

I expect your involvement in checking into these critical generations will
prove invaluable either to suggest a change is needed to existing views, or
to improve upon those views. While the Wentworths will still have some
royalty via the Marburys (I tentatively show Henry I, William the Conqueror,
Alfred the Great and of course Charlemagne), it greatly reduces their
involvement with many interesting landed gentry in between.

Terry Booth
Illinois

----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 04, 2006 12:05 AM
Subject: Re: A Plantagenet Ancestry for William Wentworth of NH ?


In a message dated 11/3/2006 4:53:51 PM Pacific Standard Time,
terryjbooth@sbcglobal.net writes:

14. [was 12]. Richard Sotehill = Agnes ------

15. [was 13]. Isabel Sotehill = Oliver Wentworth

16. [was 14]. William Wentworth = Ellen Gilby


The back of my mind is saying there's a flaw in this section, but all my
notes are at my office. I was just today working on Oliver Wentworth
too.
Strange how that works.

You'll probably get an answer before I can get back to my notes, but
perhaps
if you try to assign some dates to these people you might see something
amiss.

Will Johnson

-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message


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John Brandon

Re: 1698 marriage of Moses Hawks and 'Mrs.' Margerit Cogeswe

Legg inn av John Brandon » 04 nov 2006 18:18:49

I have seen, from this period of time, birth entries in parish registers in
Shropshire giving the child the title "mrs." I believe it did not have the
modern connotation of a married woman, but was rather an indication of
social rank - something like "lady".

Yes, she seems to have been called this on account of her mother, who
was also called "Mrs." in _her_ marriage record.

Douglas Richardson

Re: Kinsfolk of Blanche of Navarre: Brabant, Vermandois, Bau

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 04 nov 2006 18:40:27

Dear Newsgroup ~

As a followup to my earlier post regarding Wauters, I had the
opportunity to go to the Family History Library again yesterday. I
decided to check Père Anselme for any reference to a possible
dispensation for the marriage of Duke Henry I of Lorraine & Brabant and
his 2nd wife, Marie of France. As stated in my last post, if such a
dispensation existed, it might shed some light on Duke Henry I's exact
kinship to the Namur family, as Marie of France's 1st husband was
descended from the Namur family.

Anselme made no mention of any dispensation for this marriage under
either his France account or his Brabant account. However, checking
his comments regarding Duke Henry I's great-grandparents, Duke Godfrey
I and his 1st wife, Ida, I noted that Anselme identified Ida as the
daughter of Albert III, Count of Namur, thus agreeing with Wauters.
Anselme cited as his source: Butkens, Preuves.

I checked the card catalog and found that the library has an original
copy of Butkens on the shelf in the oversized collection. The exact
title of Butkens' work is: Trophées tant sacres que prohanes de la
duché de Brabant. The work was published in 1637. The author's name
is: F. Christopre Butkens.

Butkens included a long biography of Duke Godfrey I in the front
section of volume 1, and a large selection of abstracts of original
documents in a section at the end called "Preuves." In Volume 1, pp.
106-107, as expected, Butkens identified Duke Godfrey's first wife,
Ida, as the daughter of Albert III, Count of Namur. Butkens discussed
at length the evidence for Ida's parentage, including a piece of
evidence that we've already encountered, namely that Ida and her
brother, Bishop Alberon, were stated to be of the "prosopia" [family,
lineage] of Namur. This information comes from two sources, not one:
the chronicle of a contemporary individual, Chanoine Nicolas of Liège,
who wrote "Le Triomphe de S. Lambert à`Boüillon" and a chronicler
named Alberic, presumably Alberic de Trois-Fontaines. Because Alberic
de Trois-Fontaines' comments were made later and were so similar to
Chanoine Nicolas, I assume Alberic obtained his material from Chanoine
Nicolas. Butkens then adds one additional piece of evidence not
discussed here on the newsgoup. He states that in a marginal note
reported by I. de Chappeauville under the year 1142, that reference is
made to a war between the said Bishop Alberon and his nephew, Henry
Count of Namur.

Checking pg. 32 of the Preuves sections at the end of the book, Butkens
directly quotes from all three sources, Alberic, Chanoine Nicolas, and
I. de Chappeauville (in that order). As stated by Butkens, the first
two sources state that Ida and her brother, Bishop Alberon, were of the
"prosopia" [family, lineage] of Namur. As for Chappeauville, he states
this information is derived from "Annotations de I. de Chappeauville
sur ladicte Histoire, chap. 39." I assume the words "sur ladicte
Histoire" mean that Chappeauville's annotations were made to the
earlier history by Chanoine Nicolas entitled "Triumphe de S. Lambert."
The abstract he provides from Chappeauville agrees with Butkens'
earlier comments. The abstract states that there was a war ["guerra"]
in 1142 between Bishop Alberon and Henry Count of Namur his nephew
["nepotem suum"].

Butkens gives no date for the Annotations of I. de Chappeauville.
However, one presumes he wrote in a later period and was not
contemporary like Chanoine Nicolas. If so, then there are three
assumptions that we must make if we are to trust Chappeauville:

1. We must assume that Chappeauville was fully informed regarding the
identity of Bishop Alberon and his relationship to Count Henry of
Namur.
2. We must assume that Chappeauville, being of later date, used the
Latin word "nepotem" to mean "nephew," and not "kinsman" as it often
did in earlier periods.
3. We must assume that Bishop Alberon living in 1142 is the same person
as Bishop Alberon of Liège. Butkens says he was, but the actual entry
by Chappeauville makes no reference to Liège.

If we're willing to make these three assumptions, then Chappeauville
has basically confirmed that Ida, first wife of Duke Godfrey I, was the
daughter of Albert III, Count of Namur, by his wife, Ida of Saxony.
However, I personally am not willing to use Chappeauville as concluding
evidence. If Chappeauville, for example, quoted from an earlier source
not in view at this time, the word "nepos" could have meant "kinsman"
in the earlier source. If so, then we would know only that Bishop
Alberon was "kinsman" to Count Henry of Namur, and would not know
Bishop Alberon's place in the Namur family.

Finally, in an earlier post, I cited evidence which showed that Queen
Alice (or Aleide) of England, daughter of Duke Godfrey I and his wife
Ida, claimed kinship to Milicent de Rethel, granddaughter of Count
Godfrey I of Namur (son of Count Albert III of Namur). This
information comes from English sources and was not known to Butkens.
Again, this evidence supports a Namur connection between the two
families.

So we now have four sources in play, all of which point to Namur as the
family of origin for Ida, first wife of Duke Godfrey I.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

P.S. Checking Butkens' preuves section, I see that the original
documents he cites refer to Ida's brother as "Albero," "Alberon," and
"Alberonem." In his front section, Butkens refers to the brother as
Alberon II, Bishop of Liège. Butkens evidently prefers the spelling
"Alberon" to "Adelbero."

Douglas Richardson

Re: Kinsfolk of Blanche of Navarre: Brabant, Vermandois, Bau

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 04 nov 2006 20:22:50

Dear Newsgroup ~

There is a lengthy article on the early Dukes of Lorraine and Brabant
in the periodical, L'art de vérifier les dates, vol. 14, Pt. 2,
published in 1819. This article is available online through Google
Book Search at the following weblink:

http://books.google.com/books?vid=OCLC0 ... pg=PA90&dq

On page 90, the author identifies Ida, the first wife of Duke Godfrey
I, as the daughter of Count Albert III of Namur. This agrees with
Butkens, Anselme, and Wauters. However, no primary documentation is
given to support this identification.

On page 91, the author further identifies Duke Godfrey I's son,
Joscelin de Louvain, who came to England, as the son of Duke Godfrey
I's 2nd wife, Clemence of Burgundy. Again, no primary documentation is
provided.

Elsewhere in the same volume, there is a series of interesting
biographies of early Bishops of Liège. On pages 192-194, there is a
biography of Albéron II, Bishop of Liège. Bishop Albéron's
parentage is not stated. Rather, he is said only to be "of the house
of the Counts of Namur" ["de la maison des comtes de Namur."]. The
author states that there was a war in 1140 with Henry, Count of Namur,
which war ended the same year or at the beginning of the next. In
1141 he joined forces with Henry, Count of Namur, and laid siege to the
castle of Bouillon.

This information can be found at the following weblink:

http://books.google.com/books?vid=OCLC0 ... g=PA192&dq

The author makes no comment on the kinship which may have existed
between Bishop Albéron II and Henry, Count of Namur.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Terry J Booth

Re: A Plantagenet Ancestry for William Wentworth of NH ?

Legg inn av Terry J Booth » 04 nov 2006 21:12:18

James,

Thanks for joining in - and thanks for the nice addition which I had not spotted before. It looks good to me.

This additional Wentworth descent is of course only valid if the remainder of the line can be accepted.

The William the Lion ancestry raises an interesting question - which descent would RD600 choose to show as between Henry II or William. It claims to select the "best" royal descents, by which it means (as Nat pointed out) "from the most recent king" (page xiv). This means William should be preferred to Henry II.

But the RD600 Wentworth addendum contradicts of its own definition of 'best' (as a retired CPA I like to see definitions - once adopted - consistently applied). Their new William the Lion descent on page 823 is only 17 generations to William Wentworth of NH. This is SHORTER by 2 generations than the erroneous 19 generation descent from John I as shown on page 399 of the 2004 edition. The 'shorter is best' definition would conclude the new Wentworth line is an improvement. But on page 818, GBR states "Slightly 'lesser' royal descents are presented for William Wentworth of NH . . " The logic in this statement contradicts RD600's own definition of 'best', suggesting instead that shorter is NOT an improvement if a Plantagenet descent is involved.

I tend to prefer the page 818 definition of 'best', but no doubt many would disagree.

Terry Booth
Illinois


----- Original Message -----
From: Jwc1870@aol.com
To: terryjbooth@sbcglobal.net
Cc: Jwc1870@AOL..com
Sent: Saturday, November 04, 2006 8:54 AM
Subject: Re: A Plantagenet Ancestry for William Wentworth of NH ?


Dear Terry,
Richardson`s Magna Carta Ancestry indicates under Fauconberge (p 316) that Walter de Fauconberge, 4th Lord Fauconberge who married Maud Pateshall was the son of John, 3rd Lord Fauconberge by his wife Eve (?Bulmer) and grandson by Isabel de Roos of Walter, 2nd Lord Fauconberge.Isabel was a daughter of Robert de Roos of Hamlake by Isabel Aubenay of Belvoir Castle and She was a great granddaughter of King William the Lion (known to Scots of around his time as William the Rash)
Sincerely,
James William Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA


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Gjest

Re: A Plantagenet Ancestry for William Wentworth of NH ?

Legg inn av Gjest » 04 nov 2006 23:35:05

Dear Terry,
True, William the Lion`s reign began 10 years after that of
Henry II and He died 24 years Henry but He did bend the knee to him,
acknowledging him his overlord in 1174 after defeating him in battle. Henry`s consort
Eleanor of Aquitaine was as powerful a personality as He was, unlike Ermengarde
de Beaumont, William the Lion`s wife. Henry II rose above that unfortunate
comment which triggered the murder of Thomas A` Becket, Archbishop of
Canterbury " Shall none rid me of that damn preist ?" and got the Holy See`s blessing
in conquering the usually pious country of Ireland. the Plantagenets for all
their slightly demonic qualities were favorites of the Church. What`s more most
people One ask might say : Scotland had Kings?
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

Peter Stewart

Re: Kinsfolk of Blanche of Navarre: Brabant, Vermandois, Bau

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 05 nov 2006 00:24:03

Ho hum. Richardson is no doubt hoping to elicit a detailed rebuttal of his
shoddy attempt at research and analysis below, in order to get his work done
properly for no cost or real effort on his own part.

At the start of the discussion of the parentage of Duchess Ida and her
brother Bishop Adalbero I pointed out that this has long been a matter of
dispute. Richardson now finds some old stuff that puts one side of the
argument, making them children of Count Albert III of Namur, and fails to
check the sources for this to see exactly what was said and in what context.

In the process he has fallen into several new errors, for instance ascribing
the anonymous Triumphus sancti Lamberti de castro Bullonio as by 'Chanoine
Nicolas of Liège, who wrote "Le Triomphe de S. Lambert à`Boüillon"' - this
was a conjecture of Jean Chapeauville [NB not "Chappeauville"] in the 16th
century. Richardson's claim "We must assume that Chappeauville was fully
informed regarding the identity of Bishop Alberon and his relationship to
Count Henry of Namur" is bunkum. Chapeauville had no inside knowledge about
this, and relying on him is ridiculous anyway since we (but not Richardson)
now know that a continuator of Sigebert's Chronographia was the medieval
source of his marginal note about the strife between Bishop Adalbero of
Liège and Count Henri of Namur.

The work of Christophre (NB not "Christopre") Butkens was of course fully
known to Knetsch and also to Hippolyte Goffinet who published a study of
Bishop Adalbero in 1872 placing him and his sisters in the comital family of
Chiny. As I said, this has long been a point of debate - Knetsch agreed with
Butkens, and disagreed with Goffinet. The evidence is NOT clear enough to
decide this merely on the strength of "de prosapia Namucensi" in Triumphus
sancti Lamberti. Alberic of Troisfontaines elaborates this, using the same
term to describe a group of relatives including "Aaliz vel Alaydis, que
comiti Ottoni de Chisneio comitem Albertum peperit" (Alix, who was mother to
Count Albert by Count Otto of Chiny). There is no certainty that "de
prosapia Namucensi" meant "belonging to the male line of Namur".

Until Richardson wakes up that 16th and 17th century opinions are not the
same as established facts, and do not give a full perspective on this
question, his stumbling around on the problem is wasting everyone's time.
Dredging up _L'art de vérifier les dates_ to repeat a stale error about the
maternity and legitimacy of Adela of Louvain's half-brother Joscelin is
downright unprofessional.

Peter Stewart


"Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1162662027.028643.132230@h54g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Dear Newsgroup ~

As a followup to my earlier post regarding Wauters, I had the
opportunity to go to the Family History Library again yesterday. I
decided to check Père Anselme for any reference to a possible
dispensation for the marriage of Duke Henry I of Lorraine & Brabant and
his 2nd wife, Marie of France. As stated in my last post, if such a
dispensation existed, it might shed some light on Duke Henry I's exact
kinship to the Namur family, as Marie of France's 1st husband was
descended from the Namur family.

Anselme made no mention of any dispensation for this marriage under
either his France account or his Brabant account. However, checking
his comments regarding Duke Henry I's great-grandparents, Duke Godfrey
I and his 1st wife, Ida, I noted that Anselme identified Ida as the
daughter of Albert III, Count of Namur, thus agreeing with Wauters.
Anselme cited as his source: Butkens, Preuves.

I checked the card catalog and found that the library has an original
copy of Butkens on the shelf in the oversized collection. The exact
title of Butkens' work is: Trophées tant sacres que prohanes de la
duché de Brabant. The work was published in 1637. The author's name
is: F. Christopre Butkens.

Butkens included a long biography of Duke Godfrey I in the front
section of volume 1, and a large selection of abstracts of original
documents in a section at the end called "Preuves." In Volume 1, pp.
106-107, as expected, Butkens identified Duke Godfrey's first wife,
Ida, as the daughter of Albert III, Count of Namur. Butkens discussed
at length the evidence for Ida's parentage, including a piece of
evidence that we've already encountered, namely that Ida and her
brother, Bishop Alberon, were stated to be of the "prosopia" [family,
lineage] of Namur. This information comes from two sources, not one:
the chronicle of a contemporary individual, Chanoine Nicolas of Liège,
who wrote "Le Triomphe de S. Lambert à`Boüillon" and a chronicler
named Alberic, presumably Alberic de Trois-Fontaines. Because Alberic
de Trois-Fontaines' comments were made later and were so similar to
Chanoine Nicolas, I assume Alberic obtained his material from Chanoine
Nicolas. Butkens then adds one additional piece of evidence not
discussed here on the newsgoup. He states that in a marginal note
reported by I. de Chappeauville under the year 1142, that reference is
made to a war between the said Bishop Alberon and his nephew, Henry
Count of Namur.

Checking pg. 32 of the Preuves sections at the end of the book, Butkens
directly quotes from all three sources, Alberic, Chanoine Nicolas, and
I. de Chappeauville (in that order). As stated by Butkens, the first
two sources state that Ida and her brother, Bishop Alberon, were of the
"prosopia" [family, lineage] of Namur. As for Chappeauville, he states
this information is derived from "Annotations de I. de Chappeauville
sur ladicte Histoire, chap. 39." I assume the words "sur ladicte
Histoire" mean that Chappeauville's annotations were made to the
earlier history by Chanoine Nicolas entitled "Triumphe de S. Lambert."
The abstract he provides from Chappeauville agrees with Butkens'
earlier comments. The abstract states that there was a war ["guerra"]
in 1142 between Bishop Alberon and Henry Count of Namur his nephew
["nepotem suum"].

Butkens gives no date for the Annotations of I. de Chappeauville.
However, one presumes he wrote in a later period and was not
contemporary like Chanoine Nicolas. If so, then there are three
assumptions that we must make if we are to trust Chappeauville:

1. We must assume that Chappeauville was fully informed regarding the
identity of Bishop Alberon and his relationship to Count Henry of
Namur.
2. We must assume that Chappeauville, being of later date, used the
Latin word "nepotem" to mean "nephew," and not "kinsman" as it often
did in earlier periods.
3. We must assume that Bishop Alberon living in 1142 is the same person
as Bishop Alberon of Liège. Butkens says he was, but the actual entry
by Chappeauville makes no reference to Liège.

If we're willing to make these three assumptions, then Chappeauville
has basically confirmed that Ida, first wife of Duke Godfrey I, was the
daughter of Albert III, Count of Namur, by his wife, Ida of Saxony.
However, I personally am not willing to use Chappeauville as concluding
evidence. If Chappeauville, for example, quoted from an earlier source
not in view at this time, the word "nepos" could have meant "kinsman"
in the earlier source. If so, then we would know only that Bishop
Alberon was "kinsman" to Count Henry of Namur, and would not know
Bishop Alberon's place in the Namur family.

Finally, in an earlier post, I cited evidence which showed that Queen
Alice (or Aleide) of England, daughter of Duke Godfrey I and his wife
Ida, claimed kinship to Milicent de Rethel, granddaughter of Count
Godfrey I of Namur (son of Count Albert III of Namur). This
information comes from English sources and was not known to Butkens.
Again, this evidence supports a Namur connection between the two
families.

So we now have four sources in play, all of which point to Namur as the
family of origin for Ida, first wife of Duke Godfrey I.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

P.S. Checking Butkens' preuves section, I see that the original
documents he cites refer to Ida's brother as "Albero," "Alberon," and
"Alberonem." In his front section, Butkens refers to the brother as
Alberon II, Bishop of Liège. Butkens evidently prefers the spelling
"Alberon" to "Adelbero."

Tony Hoskins

Re: Deighton sisters speculated connection to the Fiennes Cl

Legg inn av Tony Hoskins » 05 nov 2006 00:45:06

"As is well known, the Massachusetts Bay Company [error: should read:
*Colony*] was founded in 1630".

Also, apologies for the OT-ness of the original posting; though
indubitably by implication and innumerable associations it is medieval.
Pardon the stretched pont!

Tony

Roger LeBlanc

Re: William Sinclair of Rossyln, Sheriff of Edinburgh 1264

Legg inn av Roger LeBlanc » 05 nov 2006 00:58:59

Are the names known of any other children (besides William) of Eleanor
of Dreux's two marriages?

Roger LeBlanc

Nathaniel Taylor

Re: A Plantagenet Ancestry for William Wentworth of NH ?

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 05 nov 2006 02:05:08

In article <mailman.95.1162671113.32209.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>,
"Terry J Booth" <terryjbooth@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

The William the Lion ancestry raises an interesting question - which descent
would RD600 choose to show as between Henry II or William. It claims to
select the "best" royal descents, by which it means (as Nat pointed out)
"from the most recent king" (page xiv). This means William should be
preferred to Henry II.

But the RD600 Wentworth addendum contradicts of its own definition of 'best'
(as a retired CPA I like to see definitions - once adopted - consistently
applied). Their new William the Lion descent on page 823 is only 17
generations to William Wentworth of NH. This is SHORTER by 2 generations than
the erroneous 19 generation descent from John I as shown on page 399 of the
2004 edition. The 'shorter is best' definition would conclude the new
Wentworth line is an improvement. But on page 818, GBR states "Slightly
'lesser' royal descents are presented for William Wentworth of NH . . " The
logic in this statement contradicts RD600's own definition of 'best',
suggesting instead that shorter is NOT an improvement if a Plantagenet
descent is involved.

I would have thought (though I don't have either edition of RD600 in
front of me), that Gary meant 'lesser than the disproved King John
descent from the 2004 edition' (though Wm the Lion died only two years
before John), not necessarily lesser than the apparent descent from
Henry II of which Gary is also aware. I think the chronological
definition has been used pretty consistently in Gary's compilations, to
'rank' these descents.

On these lines in general, my understanding was that Paul Reed has
carefully established that (1) the immigrant is the Alford man people
have presumed him to be; and (2) the immediate ancestry, including the
Sothill heiress married to Oliver Wentworth being mother of his children
(as opposed to his later wife Jane, relict in his will), has now been
well established. It is unfortunate that this excellent work has not
yet been published, but I look forward to it when it does appear.
Knowing that the work has been done is one of the reasons I have not
pored over the descent myself, impatient though I may be about it. If
Will Johnson has particular reason to doubt any part of the Wentworth
ancestry which has been discussed here or published, I'd be interested
to hear it.

Nat Taylor
http://www.nltaylor.net

Gjest

Re: Kinsfolk of Blanche of Navarre: Brabant, Vermandois, Bau

Legg inn av Gjest » 05 nov 2006 02:41:02

Dear Douglas,
I`m relatively sure that Ida was a de Chiny rather than
a de Namur and would defend the line far more vigorously, but the honor of
discovery belongs to Leo van de Pas rather than myself, the same with Eleanor
de Vermandois, Countless of Sainte Quinton who He shows on Genealogics.org as
being the daughter of Raoul I, Count of Vermandois by his wife Petronille/
Alix, a daughter of William VIII and X, Count of Poitou and Duke of Aquitaine by
Aenor of Chastellerault and so niece of the famous Queen, Eleanor of Aquitaine.
William X was the son of William IX whose mother Hildegarde was sister to
Queen Constance of Castile. their father being Duke Robert I of France.
The Chiny descent includes Count Godfrey of Namur as Ida and Adalbero`s
uncle as represented in one of your own posts and accounts moreover for a
relationship between Henry I , Duke of Brabant via the Montdidier family as
previously pointed out by Leo and John Ravilious. Also, A War between brothers would
never escape notice.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

Merilyn Pedrick

Re: Death date for Elizabeth

Legg inn av Merilyn Pedrick » 05 nov 2006 03:43:02

Thankyou to Tim, Martin and Charlotte for your answers to my query.
So there still seems to be some difference of opinion as to the parents of
Nicholas Lewknor.
From Tim we see that the 1530 visititation of Sussex give Nicholas's parents
as Sir Thomas Lewknor and Phillipe Dalingrigdge. And the Worcester 1569
visitation gives the same parents to Nicholas.
Martin Hollick quotes Magna Carta Ancestries by Douglas Richardson who says
that the parents of Nicholas were Sir Thomas Lewknor and Elizabeth
Etchingham. He gives a death date for her of before 23 Feb 1464. Goodness
knows where I got 1412 from! But this certainly gives her a more fitting
death date.
However, Genealogics gives the name Elizabeth Carew as both the name of
Nicholas's mother (Sir Thomas Lewknor's wife) and also Sir Thomas's mother,
Nicholas's paternal grandmother.
It seems therefore most probable that Elizabeth Etchingham is the mother of
Nicholas now that Doug provides a better death date for her.
Best wishes
Merilyn

-------Original Message-------

From: Merilyn Pedrick
Date: 11/04/06 17:33:29
To: Gen-Med List
Subject: Death date for Elizabeth

According to my database Thomas Lewknor and his wife Elizabeth de Etchingham
had two children: Joan, who was born after 1421 and Nicholas who was born
about 1430.

However I have their mother Elizabeth's death date as 12 March 1412.

Genealogics has Nicholas as the son of Thomas Lewknor and another wife,
Elizabeth Carew.

Could someone please tell me where I've blundered?

Merilyn Pedrick

Aldgate, South Australia



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Louise Staley

Re: Death date for Elizabeth

Legg inn av Louise Staley » 05 nov 2006 04:59:22

Dear Group,
I have not been watching this thread so please excuse me if this has
already been covered.

Elizabeth Lewkenor's will dated 20 February 1464 is online as ref. PROB
11/5 at http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/docu ... /wills.asp

I haven't seen it's contents but it should help with the question of
whether Elizabeth Echyngham is the mother of Nicholas Lewkenor.

I note Rosie Bevan posted to SGM 29 June 2001 an extract from William
Bayley, Account of the House of D'Oyly, 1845, p.95:

"SIR THOMAS LEWKNOR, aforesaid of Bradhurst, co Sussex & co who had
previously in 5th Hen IV been found heir, through his grandmother Joane
D'Oyly to the extensive estates of the Tregoze family at Goring, co
Sussex, and elsewhere in that county, on the death of John Tregoze of
Goring, son of Sir Henry Tregoze, Knt : on which occasion the jury
returned that "Thomas Lewknor was the cousin and heir of the deceased
(being the son of Roger, the son of Joan, the daughter of Margaret
D'Oyly, sister of Sir Henry Tregoze) and that the said Thomas was 12
years of age. [Esch 5 Hen IV John Tregoze]. Sir Thomas thus acquired
many numerous estates in Sussex ; moved his seat to Goring ; was knight
of the shire for Sussex in 1 Hen VI (1423) and was thrice married. His
first wife was Elizabeth, daughter of his maternal kinsman and guardian
Nicholas Carew of Beddington, co. Surrey (ancestor of the Baronets Carew
of Beddington) by Mary his wife. She died s.p. Sept 1410 and was buried
in Beddington church [Manning's Surrey, II 523-9]. He married secondly
Philippa, relict of Sir Richard Berners, daughter and, by death s.p. of
her brother Richard Dalyngrigge, sole heiress of Walter Dalyngrigge, son
of Sir Roger Dalyngrigge of Bodiam Castle, co. Sussex, and cousin and
heiress of Sir John Dalyngrigge, Knt.

[Bayley goes on to say that Thomas Lewknor's third wife was Catherine
Pelham, but on my copy he has realised his mistake and crossed it out.
In his handwriting he has added "this relates to his grandson" and "his
third wife was Elizabeth Echingham"]"

From this it would seem Elizabeth Carew died s.p. so cannot be the
mother and Philippa Dalyngrigge was an heiress so may have had an IPM
which would mention her heirs.

cheers
Louise

Merilyn Pedrick wrote:
Thankyou to Tim, Martin and Charlotte for your answers to my query.

So there still seems to be some difference of opinion as to the parents of
Nicholas Lewknor.

From Tim we see that the 1530 visititation of Sussex give Nicholas's parents
as Sir Thomas Lewknor and Phillipe Dalingrigdge. And the Worcester 1569
visitation gives the same parents to Nicholas.

Martin Hollick quotes Magna Carta Ancestries by Douglas Richardson who says
that the parents of Nicholas were Sir Thomas Lewknor and Elizabeth
Etchingham. He gives a death date for her of before 23 Feb 1464. Goodness
knows where I got 1412 from! But this certainly gives her a more fitting
death date.

However, Genealogics gives the name Elizabeth Carew as both the name of
Nicholas's mother (Sir Thomas Lewknor's wife) and also Sir Thomas's mother,
Nicholas's paternal grandmother.

It seems therefore most probable that Elizabeth Etchingham is the mother of
Nicholas now that Doug provides a better death date for her.

Best wishes

Merilyn

Douglas Richardson

Re: Kinsfolk of Blanche of Navarre: Brabant, Vermandois, Bau

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 05 nov 2006 05:53:31

Dear Newsgroup ~

At the beginning of this thread, I noted that Blanche of Navarre,
Countess of Champagne, is known to have been kin to several people,
among them Duke Henry I of Lorraine and Brabant, Eleanor de Vermandois,
and Agnes de Baudement, Count of Braine. So far, the exact connections
between Blanche of Navarre and Duke Henry, Eleanor, and Agnes have not
been established. The failure to establish the connection between
Blanche and two of her kinsfolk, Duke Henry I and Eleanor de
Vermandois, is particularly puzzling, as in each case, the major
portion of their respective ancestries is well known.

In the course of my research, I've encountered yet another kinsman of
Duke Henry I of Lorraine and Brabant. It appears that that Duke Henry
I of Lorraine and Brabant (died 1235) was styled "kinsman"
[consanguineus & princeps noster] in a charter by Philip, King of the
Romans (died 1208) [Reference: Butkens, Trophées tant sacres que
prohanes de la duché de Brabant, 1, Preuves, pp. 55-56].

For Duke Henry I's ancestry for four generations, see the following
weblink:

http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bi ... &id=I03632

For Duke Henry I's extended ancestry, see the following weblink:

http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bi ... style=TEXT

For King Philip's ancestry for four generations, see the following
weblink:

http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bi ... &id=I03663

For Emperor Philip II's extended ancestry, see the following weblink:

http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bi ... style=TEXT

Reviewing their respective ancestries, I find that Duke Henry I and
King Philip were related in the 4th and 5th degrees of kindred (or if
you prefer 3rd cousins once removed), by virtue of their common descent
from Henry II, Count of Louvain.

However, inasmuch as this reference to kinship falls before 1225, one
should expect to find a kinship between the two men closer than 4th and
5th degrees. While I find nothing else promising in their received
ancestries, I do find that King Philip and Blanche of Navarre were
related in the 4th and 4th degrees of kindred, by virtue of their
common descent from Guillaume I, Count of Burgundy (died 1087). If a
similar descent from Count Guillaume I could be developed for Duke
Henry I of Brabant, it would explain Duke Henry I's kinship to Blanche
of Navarre and possibly provide an even closer kinship to King Philip.
I'm personally doubtful, however, that Duke Henry I has such a descent
from Count Guillaume I of Burgundy.

In fact, a more natural explanation may well exist for the kinship
between Duke Henry I and King Philip. King Philip has one
great-grandmother, Beatrix, born say 1070, whose parentage is unknown.
Beatrix could easily be a sibling of one of Duke Henry I's
great-grandparents. If so, this would provide a relationship between
the two men of 4th and 4th degrees of kindred, which is more typical of
what I find for acknowledged kinships before 1225.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Svar

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