Blount-Ayala

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Gjest

Re: Complete Peerage CD

Legg inn av Gjest » 15 okt 2006 15:52:08

I'm a day late to reply directly to Mr. Milne's announcement in
rec.healdry of a free update of his Complete Peerage CD for those who
had bought the unindexed version. I recently received the CD and
think, but am not sure, that I got the "indexed" version. While the
version I have received is not, as Mr. Milne acknowledges,
"searchable," "indexed" is both too much and too little to describe the
disk's contents. I guess by "by title" he means name of peerage, e.g.
"Dacre" or "Lyttleton," and if so, the "index" although less than an
index of names is much more than an index of titles because it
consists of a frame of bookmarks (links) in each volume which can be
called up to the left-hand side of the screen and used to go directly
to the title clicked. This beats all to hell the awkward process of
going to an index volume, searching for a title, and then going back to
the volume cited and scrolling down to tne page cited..
I'm curious to know why Mr. Milne's posting was only to rec.heraldry,
and not to soc.genealogy.medieval where the lack of searchability and
insuperable difficulty of creating a full index in the traditional
ssense were discussed just last August. I only came across this item
by accident when I forgot to specify a group in an advanced Google
search.
I'll have more to write about the CD in GEN-MEDIEVAL, since I have zero
interest in heraldry and intense interest in genealogy.

Graham Milne wrote:
Sorry, should have said sales@abc-publications.co.uk

"Graham Milne" <graham@gmilne.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:eee2r9$9kr$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk...
For anyone who has purchased the above from ABC Publications, a new
indexed version is available free of charge. By indexed I mean that there
is an index of each volume by title; it does not mean that CP is word
searchable. Just E-Mail sales@abc-publications and I will send you a new
copy. It might take several weeks to arrive so please be patient.



Gjest

Re: Mauleverer 1100-1300

Legg inn av Gjest » 17 okt 2006 01:20:02

In a message dated 10/15/06 1:45:58 PM Pacific Daylight Time, therav3@aol.com
writes:

<< Calendar of Close Rolls, dated at York, 26 Aug. 1327 - which
relates indirectly to the land in Yorkshire in dispute above.

' Enrolment of indenture made between Sir William de Kyme
and Sir Richard Waleys at York, on 17 August, 1 Edward
III., witnessing that whereas Richard has made two
recognisances to William in chancery, one for 400l. and
the other for 300l., William grants that the recognisance
for the former sum shall be cancelled if Richard enfeoff
Stephen, his son and heir, and Annora (Anore), daughter of
Richard de Umframvill, late earl of Anegos, of the manor
of Burghwaleys before Christmas next >>

I got stuck here. Who is "Richard Umfraville, Earl of Angus" ? (Anegos is
supposed to be the same word as Angus)

I'm not finding this person on stirnet
http://www.stirnet.com/HTML/genie/briti ... ville1.htm
unless maybe "Robert" is meant here, or there is another brother who
succeeded or preceded Robert briefly

Thanks
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Mauleverer 1100-1300

Legg inn av Gjest » 17 okt 2006 01:35:04

In a message dated 10/16/06 1:58:50 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
rbevan@paradise.net.nz writes:

<< From him the descent was in
the male line to Richard Mauleverer of Beamsley, living in 1399, who
died without issue, his eventual heirs being his sisters Alice, wife of
John Middleton of Stockeld, and Thomasine, wife of William Moore of
Otterburn, whose daughter and coheir Elizabeth married Thomas Clapham,
ancestor of the Claphams of Beamsley." >>

Another source on this
http://books.google.com/books?vid=LCCN0 ... 287&lpg=PA
287&dq=%22Moore+of+Otterburn%22

Gjest

Re: Kendal, Gospatric, Samlesbury

Legg inn av Gjest » 17 okt 2006 21:10:04

However when there is *conflict* you have to *throw out* the opinions of
*well-respected members of this list* and go to the primary documents
themselves. This family could stand a web-page laying out exactly what the primary
sources say, and what they don't say, similar to the way the Henry Project is
being done.

The persons on this list, are in general, in no particular superior
position, to any other author, editor, compiler, or layperson floating about with
contrary opinions.

I certainly accept the opinions of well-respected members of this list, in
situations where there is no conflict, but the family(ies) discussed in this
thread, are not in that camp. Rather the opinions of members of this list are
in diametric opposition on many details.

They are in the camp of requiring exact quotes from primary sources, with
full bibliographic citations. As, it seems, in my *opinion* that the majority
of all previous commentators have gotten the details wrong.

Will Johnson

Dr. Richard L. Hall

Re: What type of car do you drive, a white one?

Legg inn av Dr. Richard L. Hall » 17 okt 2006 22:54:50

Of course, if every car in the United States were white, we'd be a white
car-nation.

Richard

"AT" <anthropologically2006@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1160822277.866734.283160@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
Get classified at the skadi forum:

http://forum.skadi.net/forumdisplay.php?f=238

Gjest

Re: Was Richard the eldest son of William Comyn, Earl of Buc

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 okt 2006 00:00:04

Dear Alex,
Richard Comyn was in all probability,the eldest son, but
the Patent Rolls between 1233-1244/49 don`t mention him and Walter, Earl of
Mentieth is only mentioned twice. Unfortunately I don`t have access to the plea
rolls, fine rolls , Chancery rolls or the Scottish documents. John Comyn the
Red # 1 and his widow Amabilia / Alice (de Roos) had estates in Ireland as well
as England and Scotland. John`s grandson the second Red Comyn was ordered to
return to England from Ireland by Edward I in September of 1296 and when He
surrendered to Edward I on 9 February 1304 Comyn specificily asked that He not be
imprisoned nor have to give up any of his estates in Scotland, England and
Ireland. Perhaps John Comyn the Red I`s 1st wife Eva was a member of an Irish
noble house and likewise his mother. Richard had at least two more children ,
Richard Comyn who signed a treaty in 1258 along with his brother William Comyn
are identified as John`s brothers.Richard was captured (? by Henry III`s
supporters) in 1264 and Queen Margaret (Henry`s daughter) asked her father to
secure his release and send him back to Scotland.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

Tony Hoskins

Re: Looking for Russian gateway (Ignatieff)

Legg inn av Tony Hoskins » 18 okt 2006 00:41:02

Dear Brent:

I for one would be most grafeul for a look at Michael Ignatieff's AT.

Thanks.

Tony Hoskins

Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404

707/545-0831, ext. 562

Joe Roberts

Re: What type of car do you drive, a white one?

Legg inn av Joe Roberts » 18 okt 2006 03:30:31

.... And the classic (genealogy-related) pun:

If Shirley Temple Black had married Tyrone Power ...

... she'd be Shirley Temple Black Power.

- -

Joe

Liz_in_Calgary

Re: What type of car do you drive, a white one?

Legg inn av Liz_in_Calgary » 18 okt 2006 05:39:07

On Tue, 17 Oct 2006 22:32:00 GMT, in alt.genealogy
melsonr@aragorn.rgmhome.net (Robert Melson) wrote :

Thank you, Richard, for taking it u-PUN yourself to PUNish
us with that top-posted groaner. My return volley, off topic,
is: whadda ya call a guy with no arms and no legs water skiing?
drum roll, please


Skip



Sophomoric Ol' Bob

lol

Bob, you ol' buoy.

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: Was Richard the eldest son of William Comyn, Earl of Buc

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 18 okt 2006 13:09:27

In message of 17 Oct, Jwc1870@aol.com wrote:

Richard Comyn was in all probability,the eldest son, but the Patent
Rolls between 1233-1244/49 don`t mention him and Walter, Earl of
Mentieth is only mentioned twice. Unfortunately I don`t have access to
the plea rolls, fine rolls , Chancery rolls or the Scottish documents.

The Scots Peerage, in the article on the lords of Badenoch vol 1, p. 505
gives William Comyn's children by his first marriage:

1. Richard, numbered the VIth lord of Badenoch.
2. Walter, earl of Mentieth, who dsp.
3. Jean m. William, earl of Ross.

John Comyn the Red # 1 and his widow Amabilia / Alice (de Roos) had
estates in Ireland as well as England and Scotland.

SP does not know her surname but CP XI, 94, note (i) states it was Ros.

John`s grandson the second Red Comyn was ordered to return to England
from Ireland by Edward I in September of 1296 and when He surrendered
to Edward I on 9 February 1304 Comyn specificily asked that He not be
imprisoned nor have to give up any of his estates in Scotland, England
and Ireland. Perhaps John Comyn the Red I`s 1st wife Eva was a member
of an Irish noble house and likewise his mother.

SP gives no mention of a first wife Eva.

Richard had at least two more children , Richard Comyn who signed a
treaty in 1258 along with his brother William Comyn are identified as
John`s brothers.

SP gives Richard three sons:

1. Sir John, the Red Comyn.
2. William
3. Richard

Richard

The third son of Richard

was captured (? by Henry III`s supporters) in 1264 and Queen Margaret
(Henry`s daughter) asked her father to secure his release and send him
back to Scotland.

SP confirms this.

CP has no account of the lords of Badenoch; presumably this means they
did recognise them as Lords of Parliament (S).

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/

John P. Ravilious

Re: Was Richard the eldest son of William Comyn, Earl of Buc

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 18 okt 2006 15:01:45

Dear Tim, Alex, James, et al.,

The mother of John Comyn, lord of Badenoch (d. ca. 1303) was
named Eva. She is called ' domine Eve matris mee ' in a charter of her
son John Comyn granting a quitclaim to Coupar priory of his claim to
the land of Hynwyrwac in Athol, 24 Apr 1289 [Easson, Charters of the
Abbey of Coupar I:134-5, No. LXII].

A brief chart of the family:

1. Richard Comyn
1. John Comyn, d. ca. 1273
= [1] Eva
1. John Comyn, d. ca. 1303
= Eleanor/Alianore de Baliol
2. William Comyn
3. Alexander Comyn
4. NN, a dau.,
= Alasdair mac Dubhgaill [Alexander mac Dougal,
of Lorn]
= [2] Alice de Ros
5. Sir John Comyn, of Ulceby
6. Robert Comyn
7. Alicia Comyn

Who Eva was, or whether she brought Irish lands to her marriage,
are two questions which I fear remain outstanding (and unanswered).

Cheers,

John





Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote:
In message of 17 Oct, Jwc1870@aol.com wrote:

Richard Comyn was in all probability,the eldest son, but the Patent
Rolls between 1233-1244/49 don`t mention him and Walter, Earl of
Mentieth is only mentioned twice. Unfortunately I don`t have access to
the plea rolls, fine rolls , Chancery rolls or the Scottish documents.

The Scots Peerage, in the article on the lords of Badenoch vol 1, p. 505
gives William Comyn's children by his first marriage:

1. Richard, numbered the VIth lord of Badenoch.
2. Walter, earl of Mentieth, who dsp.
3. Jean m. William, earl of Ross.

John Comyn the Red # 1 and his widow Amabilia / Alice (de Roos) had
estates in Ireland as well as England and Scotland.

SP does not know her surname but CP XI, 94, note (i) states it was Ros.

John`s grandson the second Red Comyn was ordered to return to England
from Ireland by Edward I in September of 1296 and when He surrendered
to Edward I on 9 February 1304 Comyn specificily asked that He not be
imprisoned nor have to give up any of his estates in Scotland, England
and Ireland. Perhaps John Comyn the Red I`s 1st wife Eva was a member
of an Irish noble house and likewise his mother.

SP gives no mention of a first wife Eva.

Richard had at least two more children , Richard Comyn who signed a
treaty in 1258 along with his brother William Comyn are identified as
John`s brothers.

SP gives Richard three sons:

1. Sir John, the Red Comyn.
2. William
3. Richard

Richard

The third son of Richard

was captured (? by Henry III`s supporters) in 1264 and Queen Margaret
(Henry`s daughter) asked her father to secure his release and send him
back to Scotland.

SP confirms this.

CP has no account of the lords of Badenoch; presumably this means they
did recognise them as Lords of Parliament (S).

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/

Gjest

Re: Google Books hint

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 okt 2006 18:41:02

In a message dated 10/18/2006 8:59:04 AM Pacific Standard Time,
starbuck95@hotmail.com writes:

Somebody just mentioned to me that viewable pdfs can still be
downloaded for books whose pages have recently been showing "Image not
available."


Yes one problem being older systems and dial-up connections which make PDF
viewing really really annoying ;)

Will

John Brandon

Re: Google Books hint

Legg inn av John Brandon » 18 okt 2006 20:06:44

Yes one problem being older systems and dial-up connections which make PDF
viewing really really annoying ;)

The great Wil Jhonson still uses dial-up?!

John Brandon

Re: Google Books hint

Legg inn av John Brandon » 18 okt 2006 20:35:29

I have dial-up at home, and DSL in my office.

How do you ever get any work done, fiddling with genealogy all day?

John Brandon

Re: Google Books hint

Legg inn av John Brandon » 18 okt 2006 21:09:22

Genealogy is what I do for a living.

Oh .... that 'splains a lot ...

Gjest

Re: Google Books hint

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 okt 2006 21:20:02

In a message dated 10/18/2006 12:14:07 PM Pacific Standard Time,
starbuck95@hotmail.com writes:

The great Wil Jhonson still uses dial-up?!


At times :)
I have dial-up at home, and DSL in my office.
Will "the great" Johnson

Gjest

Re: Google Books hint

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 okt 2006 21:50:02

In a message dated 10/18/2006 12:43:52 PM Pacific Standard Time,
starbuck95@hotmail.com writes:

How do you ever get any work done, fiddling with genealogy all day?


Genealogy is what I do for a living.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: IPM relating to Nottinghamshire

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 okt 2006 00:35:02

Would the William Deincourt, mentioned here as under-age (10 Nov 1376) be the
same person as William, 3rd Lord Deincourt married Alice Neville (d 20 Jun
1433) and were the parents of John Deincourt of Granby (28 Feb 1382 - 11 May
1406)

I'm showing this William Deincourt with an Est Birth by Leo of 1357.
I wonder if his marriage was arranged by the King ?

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: IPM relating to Nottinghamshire

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 okt 2006 00:40:03

Robert Jorce is mentioned, in Nottingham in the Close Rolls here
http://books.google.com/books?vid=0UxkU ... PA437&lpg=
PA437&dq=%22Robert+Jorce%22

Gjest

Re: IPM relating to Nottinghamshire

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 okt 2006 00:45:03

Thank you Will for that link to the CCR. The earliest dates on Robert Jorce
can be pushed back a little further here
http://books.google.com/books?vid=06RTZ ... &q=%22Robe
rt+Jorce%22&dq=%22Robert+Jorce%22&pgis=1

Noting that he was Sheriff of Nottinghamshire 1331-3

Leo van de Pas

Re: IPM relating to Nottinghamshire

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 19 okt 2006 02:05:02

Dear Will,

His estimated birth comes from CP Volume IV page 122, which gives his date
of baptism.
Leo

----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 8:29 AM
Subject: Re: IPM relating to Nottinghamshire


Would the William Deincourt, mentioned here as under-age (10 Nov 1376) be
the
same person as William, 3rd Lord Deincourt married Alice Neville (d 20 Jun
1433) and were the parents of John Deincourt of Granby (28 Feb 1382 - 11
May
1406)

I'm showing this William Deincourt with an Est Birth by Leo of 1357.
I wonder if his marriage was arranged by the King ?

Will Johnson


Jacques

Re: IPM relating to Nottinghamshire

Legg inn av Jacques » 19 okt 2006 09:10:57

<WJhonson@aol.com> a écrit dans le message : c1f.71ff7a1.32680766@aol.com...
Thank you Will for that link to the CCR. The earliest dates on Robert
Jorce
can be pushed back a little further here

http://books.google.com/books?vid=06RTZ ... AJ&q=%22Ro

be
rt+Jorce%22&dq=%22Robert+Jorce%22&pgis=1

Noting that he was Sheriff of Nottinghamshire 1331-3

His uncle was a dominican Thomas de Jorz (1260-1310) the english cardinal.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14695b.htm

Jacques.

Gjest

Re: Ancestry of William Girlington (also Wray, Farrar, Asfor

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 okt 2006 13:41:03

Thursday, 19 October, 2006


Dear John,

Thanks for your post of this morning (OZ time), with the details
from the varied (and varying) Catterick pedigrees.

I have made a more detailed extraction of William Brown's article
below, although there are few more relevant details (other than the
extended pedigree) than I offered in the earlier posts [1]. I note
that the Catterick pedigree in Hunter's provides interesting details
on the earlier generations, but that (comparing same to Brown, HSP
and Surtees Soc. 146) it appears this pedigree conflates two John
Cattericks: (A) the father, m. Lucy Burgh or Borough, whose IPM was
dated 1478, and (B) the son, who evidently m. Grace Lambert. I also
wonder about the HSP statement that the son 'died aged 30': this may
an erroneous statement drawn from the father's IPM wherein it was
stated that the son was then aged 30. John Catterick the son died
in 1509 or before, as his IPM is dated 24 Hen. VII (1508/09). It
appears the herald may have somehow taken 1478 as a birth date
for the younger John, giving an apparent age at death (1508) of 30.
This certainly is an error.

I have altered the chart I posted previously (shown below) to
reflect certain chronological data, some documented and some
conjectured. The dates related to the IPM of John Catterick (1478)
and the life events of William Girlington, Katherine Hildyard and
their children are the most certain: others are obvious suppositions.


Sir Christopher = Helena
Conyers I Rolleston
b. ca. 1380 (?) I
d. 6 Aug 1444 I
I
I
William Burgh = Elizabeth Conyers
d. 1492 I
I________
I
John Catterick = Lucy Burgh
b. say 1420/30 I b. say 1422/32
d. 6 Oct 1478 I m. say 1437/47
_____________I___________________
I I
Nicholas Girlington = NN Catterick John Catterick
b. say 1440/55 I b. say 1445/60 b. 1448 or before
I (ae 30, 6 Oct 1478)
_______________I________________ = Grace Lambert
I I
Nicholas = Margery William = Katherine
Girlington I Monford Girlington I Hildyard
I b. say 1460/75 I b. say 1465/75
I d. aft 4 Jul 1514, but I d. bef 5 Apr 1540
I before 1518 I (date will proved)
V _______________________I_____
I I
Nicholas Girlington Isabel Girlington
b. say 1490-1500 b. say 1495-1500
d. ca. 1551 d. bef 1 Feb 1559-60
= NN Grenville = 1) 1516 to Christopher
I Kelke (murdered
V 2 Feb 1523/4)
= 2) Sir William Tyrwhitt
I I
V V

The Catterick pedigree appears solid from William Catterick (died
30 Sept 1551, IPM 65 Apr 1552) onward. Compared to the above, this
provides no chronological proof or disproof, but also appears
reasonable: Katherine (Hildyard) (Haldenby) Girlington, the widow of
William Catterick's first cousin (William Girlington) died in 1539 or
1540, and was probably near in age to William Catterick (again,
supporting documentation lacking on this point).

Additional documentation is certainly welcome and desirable, but
it does appear from the above that the descent as presented is
chronologically reasonable.

Cheers,

John



NOTES

[1] William Brown, "The Catterick Brass," The Yorkshire
Archaeological Journal (Leeds: John Whitehead & Sons,
1907), XIX:74-75 (pedigree, p. 76). This portion of
the article states re: Elizabeth Tempest:

' The descent of her husband, Anthony Catterick, is not so
clear. Plantagenet Harrison [Hist. of Yorkshire, i. 498] says
that William de Cateryck, a citizen and mercer of York,
purchased the manor of Stanwigges before 1 Hen. IV (1399-1400).
No authority is given for this statement, and it seems to be
contradicted by the inquisition [Add. MS. No. 26722, fo. 113],
made after the death of John Catterick, who died on Oct. 6,
18 Edw. IV. (1478), leaving a son, John, aged thirty and
upwards. From this inquisition it would appear that Catterick
was only seised of a messuage and carucate of land in
"Standwyll", worth ten marks a year, and held of the prior of
St. John of Jerusalem, and did not possess the manor.
The inq. post mortem of the younger John Catterick was
taken in 24 Henry VII (1508-9) [Chancery Inq. p.m., 24 Henry
VII., No. 5 (Vol. xx. Series 2.)] It is very difficult to
read, but appears to give the same information as that
contained in his father's.
.......

John Catterick, of Stanwick. Died 1478. = Lucy Borough.
_______________________________________I
I
John Catterick. Died 1508-9. = Grace Lambert.
____________________________I
I
William Catterick. Died 1550. = Margaret Saltmarshe.
____________________________I
I
Anthony Catterick. Died 1585. = Elizabeth Tempest. Died 1591.
____________________________I______________________
I I I I I
Thomas. Died without issue. I
Margery = Roger Meynell. I
Grace = Robert Lambert. I
Dorothy = Francis Scrope. I
__________________________________________________I
I
George Catterick. Died 1592. = Margaret, dau. of Anthony
____________________________I Eltoft, of Farnhill in Craven
I
Anthony Catterick. Aged 21 = Joyce Pennington.
in 1585. Living in 1617 I
__________________________I
I
Anthony Catterick. Died 1644. = Isabella, dau. of Sir Ralph
____________________________I Gray, of Chillingham, knt.
I
John Catterick. Living in 1667. = Margaret.
_______________________________I
I
Mary.



* John P. Ravilious

Alex Maxwell Findlater

Re: Mauleverer 1100-1300

Legg inn av Alex Maxwell Findlater » 19 okt 2006 14:37:56

Who is "Richard Umfraville, Earl of Angus" ? (Anegos is
supposed to be the same word as Angus)

Robert de Umphraville, last Scottish and later nominal (English) Earl

of Angus, born 1277, died March 1324/25, married to Lucy, daughter and
eventual heiress of Sir Philip de Kyme, Ist Lord Kyme according to the
Victorian doctrine, leaving a son, Gilbert, born 1310, dsps 6 Jan
1380/81, married to Joan d Sir Robert 1st Lord Willoughby, with issue
Sir Robert, b ca 1340, dvpsp, thus the end of the line.

The Umphravilles were Northumberland gentry who inherited the earldom
through the heiress. They were not great mates of Robert Bruce. After
the treaty of 1328 they became one of the "dispossessed" families.
John Stewart of Bonkyl was created Earl of Angus by King Robert in 1329.

Alex Maxwell Findlater

Re: Kendal, Gospatric, Samlesbury

Legg inn av Alex Maxwell Findlater » 19 okt 2006 14:47:09

The major source for the early history of this family is the Cartulary
of Holm Cultram and I have given the address for the on-line copy
earlier in the thread. Might I suggest that people consult this. I
know the Cartulary isn't a transcript, but it has always commanded
respect for its scholarship.

Gjest

Re: Ancestry of William Girlington (also Wray, Farrar, Asfor

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 okt 2006 15:00:05

Thursday, 19 October, 2006


Dear John,

Thanks also for noting that Prince William is a descendant of
William Girlington and Katherine Hildyard, in addition to his
elder brother Nicholas Girlington. This is one of many
interesting descents from Isabel (Girlington) (Kelke) Tyrwhitt by
her second marriage.

There are a number of interesting non-emigrant descents from
Isabel's Kelke issue. I am continuing to compile data on these
descents, but would like to note that these currently are known
to include

- Sir James Alan Barlow, 4th Baronet Barlow of Wimpole Street
- Sir Anthony Thomas Farrer, 5th Baron Farrer of Abinger
- the author James Anson Farrer
- the noted gardener Reginald Farrer
- Francis-Hawkesworth Fawkes, Esq. of Farnley,
- John MacLeod, 29th Chief of MacLeod
- John Stafford Northcote, 5th Earl of Iddesleigh
- the issue of Godfrey Wentworth, Esq., of Woolley Park and
his wife Amelia Farrer

More to follow.

Cheers,

John

John Higgins

Re: Ancestry of William Girlington (also Wray, Farrar, Asfor

Legg inn av John Higgins » 19 okt 2006 21:41:02

Thanks for posting this additional information on the Caterrick line. I
agree that, based on the information we have available, the descent appears
to make chronological sense. Given the problems in the "Hunter's Pedigrees"
version of the family in conflating two Johns and possibly duplicating a
William and a John, I'm inclined to discount the earlier generations it
offers without further proof.

I still am a bit bemused by the apparent intermarriage on the Burgh side of
this family, which seems to play out as below:
William Burgh m. Maud Lascells
Maud Burgh m. John Saltmarsh
Margaret Saltmarsh m. William Catterick

William Burgh m. Maud Lascells
William Burgh m. Elizabeth Conyers
Lucy Burgh m. John Catterick
John Catterick m. Grace Lambert
William Catterick m. Margaret Saltmarsh

If this is correct, William Catterick married his grandmother's first
cousin - possible I suppose but suspicious on the basis of both chronology
and consanguinity.

BTW, my earlier note said the William Girlington's wife was a Catterick - in
fact, as John R's note points out, it was his mother (not his wife) that was
a Catterick.

----- Original Message -----
From: <Therav3@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 4:36 AM
Subject: Re: Ancestry of William Girlington (also Wray, Farrar, Asfordby &
c.)


Thursday, 19 October, 2006


Dear John,

Thanks for your post of this morning (OZ time), with the details
from the varied (and varying) Catterick pedigrees.

I have made a more detailed extraction of William Brown's article
below, although there are few more relevant details (other than the
extended pedigree) than I offered in the earlier posts [1]. I note
that the Catterick pedigree in Hunter's provides interesting details
on the earlier generations, but that (comparing same to Brown, HSP
and Surtees Soc. 146) it appears this pedigree conflates two John
Cattericks: (A) the father, m. Lucy Burgh or Borough, whose IPM was
dated 1478, and (B) the son, who evidently m. Grace Lambert. I also
wonder about the HSP statement that the son 'died aged 30': this may
an erroneous statement drawn from the father's IPM wherein it was
stated that the son was then aged 30. John Catterick the son died
in 1509 or before, as his IPM is dated 24 Hen. VII (1508/09). It
appears the herald may have somehow taken 1478 as a birth date
for the younger John, giving an apparent age at death (1508) of 30.
This certainly is an error.

I have altered the chart I posted previously (shown below) to
reflect certain chronological data, some documented and some
conjectured. The dates related to the IPM of John Catterick (1478)
and the life events of William Girlington, Katherine Hildyard and
their children are the most certain: others are obvious suppositions.


Sir Christopher = Helena
Conyers I Rolleston
b. ca. 1380 (?) I
d. 6 Aug 1444 I
I
I
William Burgh = Elizabeth Conyers
d. 1492 I
I________
I
John Catterick = Lucy Burgh
b. say 1420/30 I b. say 1422/32
d. 6 Oct 1478 I m. say 1437/47
_____________I___________________
I I
Nicholas Girlington = NN Catterick John Catterick
b. say 1440/55 I b. say 1445/60 b. 1448 or before
I (ae 30, 6 Oct 1478)
_______________I________________ = Grace Lambert
I I
Nicholas = Margery William = Katherine
Girlington I Monford Girlington I Hildyard
I b. say 1460/75 I b. say 1465/75
I d. aft 4 Jul 1514, but I d. bef 5 Apr 1540
I before 1518 I (date will proved)
V _______________________I_____
I I
Nicholas Girlington Isabel Girlington
b. say 1490-1500 b. say 1495-1500
d. ca. 1551 d. bef 1 Feb 1559-60
= NN Grenville = 1) 1516 to Christopher
I Kelke (murdered
V 2 Feb 1523/4)
= 2) Sir William Tyrwhitt
I I
V V

The Catterick pedigree appears solid from William Catterick (died
30 Sept 1551, IPM 65 Apr 1552) onward. Compared to the above, this
provides no chronological proof or disproof, but also appears
reasonable: Katherine (Hildyard) (Haldenby) Girlington, the widow of
William Catterick's first cousin (William Girlington) died in 1539 or
1540, and was probably near in age to William Catterick (again,
supporting documentation lacking on this point).

Additional documentation is certainly welcome and desirable, but
it does appear from the above that the descent as presented is
chronologically reasonable.

Cheers,

John



NOTES

[1] William Brown, "The Catterick Brass," The Yorkshire
Archaeological Journal (Leeds: John Whitehead & Sons,
1907), XIX:74-75 (pedigree, p. 76). This portion of
the article states re: Elizabeth Tempest:

' The descent of her husband, Anthony Catterick, is not so
clear. Plantagenet Harrison [Hist. of Yorkshire, i. 498] says
that William de Cateryck, a citizen and mercer of York,
purchased the manor of Stanwigges before 1 Hen. IV (1399-1400).
No authority is given for this statement, and it seems to be
contradicted by the inquisition [Add. MS. No. 26722, fo. 113],
made after the death of John Catterick, who died on Oct. 6,
18 Edw. IV. (1478), leaving a son, John, aged thirty and
upwards. From this inquisition it would appear that Catterick
was only seised of a messuage and carucate of land in
"Standwyll", worth ten marks a year, and held of the prior of
St. John of Jerusalem, and did not possess the manor.
The inq. post mortem of the younger John Catterick was
taken in 24 Henry VII (1508-9) [Chancery Inq. p.m., 24 Henry
VII., No. 5 (Vol. xx. Series 2.)] It is very difficult to
read, but appears to give the same information as that
contained in his father's.
.......

John Catterick, of Stanwick. Died 1478. = Lucy Borough.
_______________________________________I
I
John Catterick. Died 1508-9. = Grace Lambert.
____________________________I
I
William Catterick. Died 1550. = Margaret Saltmarshe.
____________________________I
I
Anthony Catterick. Died 1585. = Elizabeth Tempest. Died 1591.
____________________________I______________________
I I I I I
Thomas. Died without issue. I
Margery = Roger Meynell. I
Grace = Robert Lambert. I
Dorothy = Francis Scrope. I
__________________________________________________I
I
George Catterick. Died 1592. = Margaret, dau. of Anthony
____________________________I Eltoft, of Farnhill in Craven
I
Anthony Catterick. Aged 21 = Joyce Pennington.
in 1585. Living in 1617 I
__________________________I
I
Anthony Catterick. Died 1644. = Isabella, dau. of Sir Ralph
____________________________I Gray, of Chillingham, knt.
I
John Catterick. Living in 1667. = Margaret.
_______________________________I
I
Mary.



* John P. Ravilious

Gjest

Re: Was Richard the eldest son of William Comyn, Earl of Buc

Legg inn av Gjest » 20 okt 2006 00:01:02

Dear John,
Who witnessed the 1289 charter for John Comyn the Black # 1
? Any de Blares for instance ? I highly doubt the Strathbogie Earl of Athol
was present as his ancestor David died 1269 lodged a complaint with King
Aleander III about that old robber John the Red Comyn # 1 building Blair Atholl
castle on the Earl`s property while He (the Earl ) was in England in that same
year.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Most Brits Are Actually Spanish

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 21 okt 2006 19:14:25

Deeeeeelightful!

And:

Hilarious!

This should serve to put the Brits in their place and stop them from
referring to the Spanish, as well as other Latin Peoples, as their
inferiors.

But it won't...

Because of Congenital & Engrained British Ignorance, Prejudice & Sloth.

DSH
--------------------------------------------------------

"A team from Oxford University has discovered that the Celts, Britain's
indigenous people, are descended from a tribe of Iberian fishermen who
crossed the Bay of Biscay 6,000 years ago. DNA analysis reveals they
have an almost identical genetic "fingerprint" to the inhabitants of
coastal regions of Spain, whose own ancestors migrated north between
4,000 and 5,000 BC.

The discovery, by Bryan Sykes, professor of human genetics at Oxford
University, will herald a change in scientific understanding of
Britishness.

People of Celtic ancestry were thought to have descended from tribes of
central Europe. Professor Sykes, who is soon to publish the first DNA
map of the British Isles, said: "About 6,000 years ago Iberians
developed ocean-going boats that enabled them to push up the Channel.
Before they arrived, there were some human inhabitants of Britain but
only a few thousand in number. These people were later subsumed into a
larger Celtic tribe... The majority of people in the British Isles are
actually descended from the Spanish."

Professor Sykes spent five years taking DNA samples from 10,000
volunteers in Britain and Ireland, in an effort to produce a map of our
genetic roots.

Research on their "Y" chromosome, which subjects inherit from their
fathers, revealed that all but a tiny percentage of the volunteers were
originally descended from one of six clans who arrived in the UK in
several waves of immigration prior to the Norman conquest.

Deeeelightful! -- DSH

The most common genetic fingerprint belongs to the Celtic clan, which
Professor Sykes has called "Oisin". After that, the next most
widespread originally belonged to tribes of Danish and Norse Vikings.
Small numbers of today's Britons are also descended from north African,
Middle Eastern and Roman clans.

These DNA "fingerprints" have enabled Professor Sykes to create the
first genetic maps of the British Isles, which are analysed in Blood of
the Isles, a book published this week. The maps show that Celts are
most dominant in areas of Ireland, Scotland and Wales. But, contrary to
popular myth, the Celtic clan is also strongly represented elsewhere in
the British Isles.

"Although Celtic countries have previously thought of themselves as
being genetically different from the English, this is emphatically not
the case," Professor Sykes said.

"This is significant, because the idea of a separate Celtic race is
deeply ingrained in our political structure, and has historically been
very divisive. Culturally, the view of a separate race holds water. But
from a genetic point of view, Britain is emphatically not a divided
nation."

Although the Romans ruled from AD 43 until 410, they left a tiny
genetic footprint. For the first 200 years occupying forces were
forbidden from marrying locally.

Don't tell the locals, but the hordes of British holidaymakers who
visited Spain this summer were, in fact, returning to their ancestral
home."

ElGaucho

Re: Most Brits Are Actually Spanish

Legg inn av ElGaucho » 21 okt 2006 21:27:07

"D. Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:bst_g.32

Deeeeeelightful!

And:

Hilarious!

This should serve to put the Brits in their place and stop them from
referring to the Spanish, as well as other Latin Peoples, as their
inferiors.

Not only is this fact, a theory, yes, but it is also something that makes
much sense.

Now, I have also noticed a similarity in the "accent" of some proud, pure
Scots and some Spanish pronounciations (from Spain)... I have told some
....'you know, you do sound to me as a Spaniard speaking in English, same
RRR's, same manerisms in the speech, other things'... of course, they never
take too kindly to such comments, but they are true.

There was a time when I wasn't that used to sounds from Scotland, yet quite
used to many Spanish accents, that I really thought they were gallegos
trying to speak English...'cause their English was quite "strange" and they
did sound like some Spaniards.

One might think some info like this could be a start, the possibility of a
change in their attitudes towards other cultures... The English, I mean,
but...man, that'd be impossible. King or Queen and Empire...even in ruins.
The pride goes on.

Oscar


But it won't...

Because of Congenital & Engrained British Ignorance, Prejudice & Sloth.

DSH
--------------------------------------------------------

"A team from Oxford University has discovered that the Celts, Britain's
indigenous people, are descended from a tribe of Iberian fishermen who
crossed the Bay of Biscay 6,000 years ago. DNA analysis reveals they
have an almost identical genetic "fingerprint" to the inhabitants of
coastal regions of Spain, whose own ancestors migrated north between
4,000 and 5,000 BC.

The discovery, by Bryan Sykes, professor of human genetics at Oxford
University, will herald a change in scientific understanding of
Britishness.

People of Celtic ancestry were thought to have descended from tribes of
central Europe. Professor Sykes, who is soon to publish the first DNA
map of the British Isles, said: "About 6,000 years ago Iberians
developed ocean-going boats that enabled them to push up the Channel.
Before they arrived, there were some human inhabitants of Britain but
only a few thousand in number. These people were later subsumed into a
larger Celtic tribe... The majority of people in the British Isles are
actually descended from the Spanish."

Professor Sykes spent five years taking DNA samples from 10,000
volunteers in Britain and Ireland, in an effort to produce a map of our
genetic roots.

Research on their "Y" chromosome, which subjects inherit from their
fathers, revealed that all but a tiny percentage of the volunteers were
originally descended from one of six clans who arrived in the UK in
several waves of immigration prior to the Norman conquest.

Deeeelightful! -- DSH

The most common genetic fingerprint belongs to the Celtic clan, which
Professor Sykes has called "Oisin". After that, the next most
widespread originally belonged to tribes of Danish and Norse Vikings.
Small numbers of today's Britons are also descended from north African,
Middle Eastern and Roman clans.

These DNA "fingerprints" have enabled Professor Sykes to create the
first genetic maps of the British Isles, which are analysed in Blood of
the Isles, a book published this week. The maps show that Celts are
most dominant in areas of Ireland, Scotland and Wales. But, contrary to
popular myth, the Celtic clan is also strongly represented elsewhere in
the British Isles.

"Although Celtic countries have previously thought of themselves as
being genetically different from the English, this is emphatically not
the case," Professor Sykes said.

"This is significant, because the idea of a separate Celtic race is
deeply ingrained in our political structure, and has historically been
very divisive. Culturally, the view of a separate race holds water. But
from a genetic point of view, Britain is emphatically not a divided
nation."

Although the Romans ruled from AD 43 until 410, they left a tiny
genetic footprint. For the first 200 years occupying forces were
forbidden from marrying locally.

Don't tell the locals, but the hordes of British holidaymakers who
visited Spain this summer were, in fact, returning to their ancestral
home."

Mad Dog ||((*/_*))||

Re: Most Brits Are Actually Spanish

Legg inn av Mad Dog ||((*/_*))|| » 21 okt 2006 22:15:01

ElGaucho wrote:
|| "D. Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote in message
|| news:bst_g.32
||
||| Deeeeeelightful!
||
||| And:
||
||| Hilarious!
||
||| This should serve to put the Brits in their place and stop them from
||| referring to the Spanish, as well as other Latin Peoples, as their
||| inferiors.
||
|| Not only is this fact, a theory, yes, but it is also something that
|| makes much sense.
||
|| Now, I have also noticed a similarity in the "accent" of some proud,
|| pure Scots and some Spanish pronounciations (from Spain)... I have
|| told some ...'you know, you do sound to me as a Spaniard speaking in
|| English, same RRR's, same manerisms in the speech, other things'...
|| of course, they never take too kindly to such comments, but they are
|| true.
||
|| There was a time when I wasn't that used to sounds from Scotland,
|| yet quite used to many Spanish accents, that I really thought they
|| were gallegos trying to speak English...'cause their English was
|| quite "strange" and they did sound like some Spaniards.
||
|| One might think some info like this could be a start, the
|| possibility of a change in their attitudes towards other cultures...
|| The English, I mean, but...man, that'd be impossible. King or Queen
|| and Empire...even in ruins. The pride goes on.
||
|| Oscar
||

Oh yes you pair of shitehawkes the British really look like Spaniard don't
they, how could we have been so stupid not to have noticed all these years.
We have so much in common like torturing bulls and donkey's, and all the
women in Britain dress in black and sit on their arse's all day don't they.

Also I hope you are a Spaniard giving us a lecture on Empire after the
misery you lot caused around the world with your genocide. It was for the
sake of humanity that we had to give you a good hiding and take your gold
off you.

However what goes around comes around I suppose as we are giving you all our
fucking hard earned money through that great gobshite the E.U. Don't bite
the hand that feeds you swarthy ignorant fuckweeds.

--
"A horse a horse my kingdom for a horse, I haven't had a winner in six
months".

MD

Gjest

Re: Reliability of IPMs (Eylesford)

Legg inn av Gjest » 21 okt 2006 22:20:03

I was gobsmacked at the PRO on Friday last, studying the IPMs of members of
the Eylesford family of Tillington, Hds, Westbury, Glos, etc. A particular
problem was posed by the two IPMs of Isabel de la Mare, former wife of John
Eylesford of Tillington, Hds, both included in the national archives at
C138/58/40, but also printed in [I think accurate] translation in the published
calendar, available on the open shelves in the Map Reading room at Kew, 2nd floor.

Isabel de la Mare, wife of Richard, and former wife of Sir John de
Eylesford, has two IPMs in C/138/58/40 (1422)- one in Hds and one in Glos. I was able
to see the original writs (both referring to her as the wife of Richard de la
Mare and "nuper uxor" of John Eynesford [sic]of Tolyngton[sic]), and the IPMs
(in latin). The PRO also holds a modern printed translation, which I can
confirm as substantially correct.
I could not find a Shropshire IPM, although we know from the Calendar of
Patent Rolls that the Eylesfords acquired the manors of Buildwas and Isenbrigg,
both in Shropshire, held in chief, by the service of keeping the forests of
Shropshire, as well as the manor of Brimfield, Hds, from the Boulewas family.
But, alas, the VCH for Shropshire gives no details of the descent of the
Shriopshire manors

The Hds one shows her as dying 24th Sept 1421, and as holding:-
The manor of Brimfield in chief, by the service of keeping the Forest of Morf
Muryvale? and Tyberton (not held in chief)
Howton manor, by grant of Sir John de Ellesford [sic] and his wife Margaret
- Fine in CP25/1/83/51- reversion to R. de la Mare, remainder to John de
Mellesbourne, kinsman of John de Mellesbourne Kt: the manor held of John Merbury
and his wife Agnes
1/3 of the manor of Tillington, as dower, held of the Lord of Berkeley
Heir William Bourghull, aged 40 et amplius

The Gloucester one, showing her as dying 17th Sept 1421, and as holding:-
1/3 of the manor of Westbury, with reversion to John Merbury, John Brugge
and John Vyntier, esqs, by grant made by John Mellebourne, son of Peter
Mellebourne, to Isabel and her husband Richard de la Mare. On Isabel's death
Merbury, Brugge and Vyntier entered and granted Isabel's share of the manor to John
Mellebourne and his wife Elizabeth.
Also a messuage at Bollow, held in chief as of the Duchy of Lancaster
Heir ["consanguineus et heres eiusdem"] John Barre, son of Thomas Barre
junior, knight, "aet octo annorum et amplius".

Here then we have some serious problems, which I have shared with Michael
Andrews-Reading (mjcar). He agrees that they are worth airing on SGM.

I offer the following notes on the above documents:-
1. There is plenty of evidence that the manor of Tillington (in the parish
of Burghill, Hds)
eventually descended through the Milborne family to the philoprogenitive
Simon Milborne (died 1522, IPM at Kew). Burghill church contains a rather
battered monument to his father John Milborne in armour, and in the church there is
exhibited a note that this John was the husband of Elizabeth Devereux,
daughter of the Devereux killed at the battle of Pilleth
2. Simon Milborne's daughters' marriages, and many of their descendants,
have been extensively discussed on SGM
3. The Bourghull/Burghill family, and their dealings with the Berkeley
family, are copiously referred to to the Berkeley Castle archives in
_www.a2a.org.uk_ (http://www.a2a.org.uk)
4. The IPM of Sir John Eylesford of Tillington is in the national archives,
dated 1396, and shows his heir- by a somewhat remote collateral descent- as
being Sir John Eylesford the younger. The IPM does however present an entirely
plausible descent of the two cousins, from their common ancestors, sons of
William de E and his Furnival wife. The Eylesfords mentioned in the Calendar of
Close Rolls for the period include Gerald, Richard, Edmund, John, John and
Hugh
5. The older Sir John E (died 1396, many times Knight of the shire of
Hereford, and King's Knight to Edward III and Richard II) is not known to have had
any other wife than the Isabel (parentage unknown) who died in September
1421. I think it possible that she may have been a Burghhill, which might account
for her husband having acquired Tillington. And of course that would also
explain the finding in PRO C138/58/40 that her heir was Walter de Bourghull.
But this Sir John and his wife Isabel cannot have had any children by their
marriage, since if they had had children those children would have been his
heirs to the exclusion of the younger Sir John, his heir, and also his wife's
heirs to the exclusion of this otherwise (to me) unknown Walter Bourghull
6. The younger Sir John, heir of the elder Sir John, is known to have
married as her second husband Margaret Swillington, heiress of Bolley and of the
hundred of Framland. But her heir was a Cromwell, who did not inherit any of
the Eylesford properties, so it seems that she could not have had issue by her
second husband
7. There is the possibility that the younger Sir John E had been married
before his marriage to Margaret Swillington
8. Some traditions have it that one of the Sir John Eylesfords was married
to an Isabel de la Barre. But it seems clear that this Isabel cannot have
been the lady who died in 1421, or the wife of the younger Sir John, since he
had already been married long before then to Margaret Swillington. However the
Herefordshire IPM of Isabel, showing her heir as the infant de la Barre boy,
does suggest that one of the Eylesford knights had indeed married a de la
Barre. Did Sir John E the elder perhaps marry an Isabel de la Barre? If there
was such a marriage it must have been childless, or else Isabel's heir would
have been one of her children

Anyway, in these mists of antiquity, I find myself totally baffled.
All guidance welcomed
MM

ElGaucho

Re: Most Brits Are Actually Spanish

Legg inn av ElGaucho » 21 okt 2006 22:45:41

"Mad Dog ||((*/_*))||" <r.anthonybaldone@hotmail.com> wrote in message

Oh yes you pair of shitehawkes the British really look like Spaniard don't
they, how could we have been so stupid not to have noticed all these
years.

They do. But you have to be an observer, not part of the scenery, of course.

We have so much in common like torturing bulls and donkey's, and all the
women in Britain dress in black and sit on their arse's all day don't
they.

Not at all! Bulls are too big and risky. You guys reserve all the torturing
for those little animals, the wee, quite inoffensive...foxes, isn't it?

The proving of the brave youth, the "bloodying" ceremony, quite a feat, I
say!

Also I hope you are a Spaniard giving us a lecture on Empire after the
misery you lot caused around the world with your genocide. It was for the
sake of humanity that we had to give you a good hiding and take your gold
off you.

Should we talk about genocides? You can't raise that issue, y'know?

However what goes around comes around I suppose as we are giving you all
our fucking hard earned money through that great gobshite the E.U. Don't
bite the hand that feeds you swarthy ignorant fuckweeds.

That swarthy part is not reserved only for the Spanish. Just open your
fucking eyes! And not only from bloody bastards, like you lot, but bastards
from unknown Spanish fathers, so many of yous!

Up your ass! Take'em nice 'n easy as usual, fuckface!

Oscar

The Highlander

Re: Most Brits Are Actually Spanish

Legg inn av The Highlander » 21 okt 2006 23:04:43

On Sat, 21 Oct 2006 19:14:25 +0100, "D. Spencer Hines"
<poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote:

<snipped unwanted foreign chitchat>


SEANN EACHDRAIDH LEÒDHAIS
le Iain N. MacLeoid

'S anns 's a' bhliadhna 1098, tha chiad iomradh againn air eilean
Leòdhais ann an eachdraidh, mar eadar-dhealaichte bho an h-Innse-Ghall
eile. 'S a' bhliadhna sin chiosnaich rìgh Manus á Lochlunn na
h-Eileanan an Iar cho buileach 's gu 'm bheil bàrd na cùirte rioghail
aig an àm ag ràdh "gu'n robh deatach an léir-sgrios a' ruigheachd na
nèamhan os cionn Ljódhhús."

'S e so an t-ainm Lochlunnach a bh' air Leòdhas aig an àm, agus tha 'n
t-Ollamh Macbheathain de 'n bheachd gu 'm bheil an t-aon chiall aig
Lódóse 's an t-Suain. Cha' n' eil luchd-mineachaidh ro-chòirdte
timchioll air brìgh an fhocail, agus mar sin 's co math dhuinn gun
deasbaireachd a dheanamh mu 'n chùis.

Tha beul-aithis Eirionnach ag ràdh gu 'n robh Conall Cearnach, sonn
treun à Ullaidh a' toigail cìse an Leòdhas 's a' bhliadhna h-aon, agus
na 'm biodh dearbhadh. cinnteach air sin 's iomadh linn a chuireadh e
ri aois eachdraidh an eilein.

Cha' n' eil teagamh nach ann á Eirinn a thainig na Gàidheil do na
h-Eileanan an Iar timchioll air an t-seathamh linn. 'N uair a thainig
na Ceilteich do dh' Alba ann an Aois an Iaruinn fhuair iad dà threubh
romhpa na Lubrachain agus treubh na h-umha. 'S e daoine beaga dubha le
cinn fhada bha 's na Lubrachain.

'S iad a thog na dùin sheòmrachail agus mullaichean cruinn orra, agus
faodaidh sinn a chreidsinn gur h-ann do Aois na Cloiche 'bhuineadh iad
a reir na sgile leis an do thog iad na seòmraichean sin. A stigh air
criochaibh na treibh sin thainig treubh na h-umha, daoine móra,
garbha, le aodainn fhada, cholgach, cinn mhóra chruinne agus failt
bàn.

Tha luchd-rannsachaidh a' deanamh a mach gur h-iad a thog na
Tursaichean ainmeil a th' aig Callanis agus àitean eile. Tha cuid de
'n bheachd gu 'm b' e teampuill no tighean-aoraidh a bha anns na
Tursaichean so, agus gu 'n robh na righrean treuna a thuiteadh 's a'
bhlàr air an tòrradh annta, agus iobairtean de gach seorsa air an
toirt suas mar onair dhoibh. Tha fhios againn gu 'n d' fhuaradh
cisteachan-cloiche iomadh uair aig na Tursaichean so, agus cnàmhan
ainmhidhean agus dhaoine a nochdadh gur dòcha gu 'n robh 'n treubh
borb ud, ag iòbradh eadhon an gineal airson sàsachaidh a thoirt do
agartasan an diathan.

Cha do dh' fhàg na Lochlunnaich móran de eachdraidh sgriobhte as an
déidh. Cha b' ann air sgriobhadh an eachdraidh a bha 'n aire ach air
mortadh agus marbhadh agus togail cheach, ach a dh' aindeoin sin uile
dh' fhàg iad an làrach anns gach ceum de 'n eilean anns an d' imich
iad, oir 's gann gu 'm bheil cnoc, abhuinn, òb no caol an Eilean an
Fhraoich nach do bhaist iad 'n an cànain mu 'n d' fhàg iad. Tha
ceithir ainmean Lochlunnach an Leòdhas mu choinneamh gach ainm
Gàidhealach no Ceilteach a th' ann. Tha cuid eadhon a' deanamh a mach
gur h-ann an déidh ionnsaidh nan Lochlunnach a dh' eirich am beagan
ainmean Gàidhlig a th' ann, agus le sin tha e coltach, nach mór nach
do sguabadh gu buileach na Ceiltich á Leòdhas tràth 's an naodhamh
linn.

'S ann a thogail chreach a thainig na Lochlunnaich an toiseach do na
h-Eileanan an Iar, ach 'n uair a bha 'n gnothuch a' còrdadh riutha cho
math bha sgaoth a' fuireach bliadhna 'n déidh bliadhna.

Mu dheireadh an deicheamh linn tha iomradh againn air Maccus no
Macharailt a' chiad rìgh a chuir na Lochlunnaich os cionn nan Eileanan
an Iar, a bha uile fo 'n spòig bho Arcamh a dh' ionasuidh an Eilean
Mhanainneich. Tha sin a' sealltuinn dhuinn cho mór agus cho
éifeachdach 's a bha cumhachd nan Lochlunnach air na h-Eileanan sin.

An déidh bhàis an rìgh sin, chuir rìgh Lochluinn uachdar, an thairis
air na h-Eileanan, ach mharbhadh an Leòdhas e am feadh 's a bha e
togail chreach an sin. 'S ann an uair sin a rinn rìgh Manus suas
inntinn nach fhàgadh e tigh tioram gun chiosnachadh 's na h-Eileanan
an Iar. Thainig e le cabhlach threun 's a' bhliadhna 1098, agus rinn e
sgrios iomlan air Leòdhas, Uidhist, an t-Eilean Sgiathanach, Tiriodh,
Muile agus Ile, ach choinnich a nàmhaid fhéin ri Manus an Eirinn, agus
mharbhadh e.

Cha do dh' eirich cumhachd nan Lochlunnach na b' àirde na sin, ged
nach do dh' fhàg iad na h-Eileanan gus am b' éigin dhoibh an déidh
blàir na Leargaidh Ghallda 's a' bhliadhna 1263. Rinn leir-sgrios
Mhanuis làrach mór air cridheachan nan eileanach fad iomadh bliadhna.
Rachadh iad anns an fhaochaig na 'n cluinneadh iad eadhon 'ainm.


Tha cuid de bhàrdachd Oisein a' luaidh air a' churaidh sin, agus tha
'm far-ainm a bh' air "Manus a' ghlùin-rùisgte" a nochadh gu 'n robh e
cleachdadh an fhèilidh agus a' bhreacain, 's dòcha mar chuimhneachan
orra-san a chuir e gu bàs.

Chaidh cùisean air aghaidh mar sin gu carraideach - rìgh an déidh rìgh
a' tighinn thairis à Lochlunn, agus a togail leis gach ni nach robh
ro-thròm no ro-theith. agus a' fagail fhàrdaichean 'n gual 'n a
dhéidh. Rinn Alasdair a Trì, rìgh Alba, suas inntinn gu 'n cuireadh
esan stad air brùidealachd nan Lochlunnach, agus gu 'n ciosnaicheadh e
na h-Eileanan an Iar dha fhéin.

'S a bhliadhna 1263, chuir e tairgse-còmhraig gu Haco rìgh Lochluinn,
bha Haco ro-dheònach, agus ann a' mios no dhà thainig e le trì chiad
bìrlinn agus dh' acraich e faisg air an Leargaidh Ghallda.

Tha fhios againn uile mar thachair, rinn stoirmean agus doinninn na
Lùnasdail an gnothuch air cabhlach Haco, bhriseadh iad 'n am mìle clàr
air cladaichean a' Chuain an Iar, thug e fhéin suas an deò 'n ath
bhliadha, agus cheannaich rìgh Alasdair na h-Eileanan an Iar bho làimh
Lochluinn 's a' bhliadhna 1266, an déidh dhoibh a bhi fo 'n cìs fad
chóig ciad bliadhna.

Cha 'n e mhàin gu 'n do dh' fhàg na Lochlunnaich an làrach air ainmean
nan àitheachan an Leòdhas, ach dh' fhàg iad an sliochd 'n an déidh
cuideachd. Tha 'n t-Ollamh Beddoes, a rinn móran rannsachaidh air
freumh gach tréibh ag ràdh mar so:

"Coinnichidh tri seorsachan dhaoine ruinn an Leòdhas. Tha na
Lochlunnaich ann, daoine móra, foghainteach, fínealta, le falt
buidhe-bhàn agus sùilean gorma. Tha muinntir Nis gu léir de'n treubh
so.

"Tha daoine beaga tiugh ann, le srón chutach, falt dubh, agus air
uairibh sùilean dubha, agus tha 'n àite-còmhnuidh am Barabhas, agus
aig an treas seorsa tha pearsachan calma, gun a bhi ro àrd, aodann
fada, mórchnàmhach, sròn fhada charach bhiorach, sùilean liatha agus
falt dubh. 'S e mo bheachd gur h-e siol nan Lochlunnach a tha fhathast
timchioll Steòrnabhaigh ged a bhàthadh an cànain leis a' Ghàidhlig bho
chionn iomadh ann".

Tha sinn de 'n bheachd gu 'n deanadh cùnntas an Ollaimh so mu
threubhan Leòdhais an gnothuch glé mhath airson aoin sam bith de na
h-Eileanan an Iar, ged is dòcha nach 'eil an aon uibhir de fhuil nan
Lochlunnach 's gach aon diubh.

'N uair a rinn righrean Albainn agus Lochluinn an cùmhnant ceannaich
airson na h-Eileanan an Iar, thugadh a dha roghainn do gach
Lochlunnach a bha ann an seilbh air còir sam bith 's na h-Elleanan an
uair sinn - dh' fhaodadh e dol dhachaidh gu Lochlunn, agus a chuid
uile 'thoirt leis, air neo fuireach far an robh e agus tighinn gu
sìtheil fo riaghladh Rìgh Alasdair, le maitheanas saor airson
ar-a-mach sam bith a rinn e roimhe sin.

Thugadh Leòdhas agus an t-Eilean Sgiathanach do Uilleam, Iarla Rois a
Dhà, agus chum esan iad fo chìs do Rìgh Alba.

Bha Eilean Leòdhais ré chiad gu leth bliadhna 'na dhéidh sin fo
riaghlidh Iarlan Rois. Cha 'n fhaic sinn a' bheag sam bith ann an
eachdraidh timchioll air na bliadhnaibh sin. Bha Ghàidhlig a'
buadhachadh gach bliadhna, bha 'n eaglais a nis Ceilteach, agus thug
sin adhartas nach bu bheag do 'n chànain.

Bha Iarlan Rois glé chumhachdach. Bha 'n daingneach laidir ann am
Baile-dhuthaich 's bha móran iochdaran aca, mar bha clann 'Icleoid
Leòdhais 's na h-Earradh, a bha 'n ùghdarras air Asaint bho Thuath
agus Glinn-eilge.

An déidh sin 'n uair a bha Tighearnais Leòdhais ag atharrachadh bho
Chlann an t-Sagairt gu Clann Dhomhnuill, Stiubhartaich, Clann an
Fhleisdeir, agus a ris gu Clann Dhomhnuill, b' e Clann 'Icleoid a bha
'n an cinn-cinnidh air an Eilean. Faodaidh sinn eadhon a ràdh gur
h-ann an Leòdhas a chinnich Clann 'Icleoid. Tha móran de 'n bbeachd
gur h-ann á Lochlunn a thainig iad an toiseach.

Tha'n eachdraidh chumanta aca 'g ràdh gu 'n d' thainig an cinneadh bho
dhithis bhràthrean, Torcull agus Tormod, Clann Leoid, a bha beò 's an
treas linn diag. B' e Leod so mac Olaibh Dhuibh rìgh an Eilein
Mhanainneich agus nan Eileanan eile, a phòs Nicrailt Armuinn leis an
d'fhuair a Dùnbheagain mar thochradh, far am bheil ceann-cinnidh
Chloinn 'Icleoid aig an latha 'n diugh.

Bha Leod 'n a uachdaran air Leòdhas agus air an Eilean Sgiathanach,
agus 'n uair a chaochail e roinneadh 'oighreachd eadar a dhithis mhac.
Fhuair Torcull Leòdhas, agus Tormod an t-Eilean Sgiathanach agus mar
sin 's e clann an dithis bhràithrean a tha 'n Clann 'Icleoid Leòdhais,
siol Thorcuill, agus Clann 'Icleoid an Eilein Sgiathanaich, siol
Thormoid.

Fhuair Ruairidh Macleoid Eilean Leòdhais 'n a làmhan fhéin an uair a
thainig cumhachd Tighearna nan Eileanan gu neo-ni, agus bha
'theaghlach a' riaghladh an eilein ciad bliadhna. An deireadh a latha
bha e ann an sith ris an righ, oir tha cunntas againn an eachdraidh,
gu 'n chuir e làmh ri cùmhnant a thug an rìgh do Iarla
Earra-ghàidheil.

An uair a chaochail e, ghabh a mhac Torcull 'àite, agus anns a'
bhliadhna sin fhéin fhuair e 'n a bhàillidh air Tròtairnis agus
Dùnthuilm 's an Eilean Sgiathanach. Phòs e nighean Iarla
Earra-ghàidheil agus mar sin rinn e taobh mór ri Domhnull Dubh, mac
peathar na mnà aige, agus oighre Tighearna nan Eileanan.

Bha Domhnull Dubh 'n a phriosanach fad a bheatha gus an dotheich e do
Leòdhas 's a' bhliadhna l5Ol. Cbaidh priomh-chinnidhean nan eilean fo
bhratach Dhomhnuill, agus thòisich an cogadh mar b' àbhaist. Rinn na
naimhdean ionnsaidh air caisteal Steòrnabhaigh 's a' bhliadhna 1506,
agus ghabh iad sealbh air, agus cha 'n fhaic sinn an còrr mu Thorcull
an eachdraidh.

Fhuair a bhràthair Calum, cùmhnant sgriobhte air Leòdhas cóig bliadhna
'n déidh sin, leis an d' aisigeadh dha, cha 'n a mhàin Leòdhas, ach
Bhatairnis, Asaint bho Thuath, agus a' Choigeach, le caisteal
Steòrnabhaigh mar phriomh-lùchairt.

Tha ùghdarras Chloinn 'Icleoid air Leòdhas a nise tighinn gu crich,
agus mar a ghabhas e creidsinn, cha b' ann gun mhort no gun mhilleadh
a leig iad às an gréim.

Phòs Ruairidh Macleoid, Triath Leòdhais, Seonaid. nighean Iain
Mhicchoinnich, Chinntàile. B' e Torcull Con nach a mhac 'oighre, ach
tha e coltach nach robh e gabhail ris mar oighre dligheach, agus mar
sin rinn e oighre do Thorcull Dubh, mac an treas mnà, nighean Mhic
'Illeathain Dhubbairt. Thòisich an sin cogadh agus aimhreit eadar
Torcull Conanach agus Torcull Dubh, agus fad iomadh bliadhna bha
Leòdhas ann an staid bhrònach agus bhuaireasach.

'S a' bhliadhna 1568, ghlacadh Ruairidh le Torcull Conanach, agus rinn
e priosanach dheth ré cheithir bliadhna, Thug a sin e air beulaobh
comhairle na rioghachd, agus thug e air gu 'n gheall e gu 'n deanadh e
oighre dheth. Rinn Ruairidh sin ach tharruing e air ais a ris a chionn
gu 'm b' ann bho phéin a' bhàis a thugadh air a dheanamh. Ma bha
teaghlach riamh roinnte 'n an aghaidh fhéin b' e sud iad.

Bha cóignear ghillean aig Ruairidh Macleoid. Bha triuir dhiubh air
taobh an athar, agus lean dithis dhiubh ri 'n leth bhràthair, Torcull
Conanach. B' e Niall Macleoid a' fear bu chumhachdaiche dhiubh so. Bha
esan an toiseach le 'athair, ach an déidh làimhe thaobh e ri Torcull
Dubh, agus mur biodh treubhantas Neill tha sinn a' creidsinn nach robh
e comasach do' Thorcull sealbh a chumail air Leòdhas cho fada.

Chaidh Torcull Conanach do 'n Choigeich, agus shuidhich e e fhéin 'n a
uachdaran air sin, air dha cuideachadh fhaighinn bho Chloinn
Mhicchoinnich, Chinntàile. Timchioll air a' bhliadhna 1595, thug
Torcull Dubh ionnsaidh air a bhràthair, an Conanach ann an
Strath-choigeach, agus cha d' fhàg e mart no each, duine no bean no
leanabh, aig Clann 'Icchoinnich Lochbhraoin nach do mharbh e.

Airson an ar-a-mach so, bha'n tòir air Torcull Dubh, agus air do
bhràthair gréim fhaighinn air, chuir e gu bàs e fhéin agus a
luchd-leanmhuinn, 's a' bhliadhna 1597. Bha mhac Torcull, le
cuideachadh Neill, 'n a uachdaran air Leòdhas an déidh sin.

Aig an àm so, chaochail dithis mhac Thorcuill Chonanaich. B' e a
nighean mar sin a b' oighre. Phòs ise bràthair Mhicchoinnich,
Tighearna Chinntàile, agus le sin thug an Conanach suas gach còir a
bh' aige 'n Leòdhas do Thriath Chinntàile. 'S ann air an dòigh sin a
fhuair Clann Mhicchoinnich còir air Leòdhas, ged nach do chuir iad an
còir an cleachdadh gus a' bhliadhna 1610.

'S a' bhliadhna 1596, thainig òrdugh bho 'n Chrùn gu 'm feumadh gach
ceann-cinnidh Gàidhealach an còir dhligheach air an oighreachdan
thoirt am follais don Rìgh, air neo gu 'n d' thoirte uatha iad. Cha d'
rinn Clann 'Icleoid Leòdhais so, agus mar sin-thugadh an t-eilean
uatha, agus thugadh e do na Fiofaich.

Thug na h-uachdarain ùra so ionnsaidh gharbh air an eilean, agus fad
iomadh bliadhna chath iad fhéin agus na Leodaich gu cruaidh, agus bha
brùidealachd thar tomhais 'g a dheanamh air duine agus ainmhidh. Chuir
Niall Macleoid 'n an aghaidh, agus a dh' aindeoin gach ionnsaidh
chumhachdaich a rinneadh air, cha d' thug e suas a dhaingneach. Bha
Triath Chinntàile cuideachd a' cath an aghaidh nam Fiofach, a chionn
gu 'n robh shùil fhéin air an eilean.

Mu dheireadh thall, 'n uair nach robh 'chùis a' dol leis na Fiofaich
cho math 's bu mhath leotha, ghabh iad blas a' chrogain do Leòdhas,
agus bha iad glé thoilichte 'n còir air an eilean a' reic do
Mhacchoinnich, Triath Chinntàile, agus mar sin 's a' bhliadhna 1610,
chaidh an Ridire Ruairidh Macchoinnich, bràthair Triath Chinntàile do
Leòdhas le arm cumhachdach.

Bha móran de threun-fhir nan Leodach air a mort 's a' chath roimhe so,
agus mar sin cha robh iad ach lag fann airson coinneachadh ris na
Sàileich chumhachdach, ach bha ar caraid Niall Macleoid cho treun 's a
bha e riamh, agus rinn e suas inntinn nach leigeadh e as a ghréim air
Leòdhas fhads' a bhiodh an t-anam ann.

'N uair a dh' fhairtlich gach gnothuch air, rinn e a dhaingneach
làidir an eilean Bhearnaraidh, far an do chuir e cruinn stòras mór de
bhiadh agus de dheoch, agus fad thri bliadhna thug e dùbhlan do
chloinn Mhicchoinnich.

Mu dheireadh thad ghoid Ruairidh Chinntàile móran de na mnathan agus
de 'n cloinn a bh' aig Niall am Bearnmaraidh, agus chuir e iad aig
muir tràigh air eilean Bheireiseidh agus bhòidich e gu 'm fàgadh e an
sin iad gus am bàite iad mur géilleadh Niall agus a chuideachd. airson
beatha nam mnathan agus na cloinne shàbhaladh ghéill Niall, agus leis
a' gheilleadh sin thug Clann 'Icleoid suas an còir. gu bràth air
eilean Leòdhais.

Fhuair Niall Macleoid a shaorsa, agus ghabh e fasgadh aig an Ridire
Ruairidh Macleoid, Dhunbheagain, Dh' fhiach Ruairidh ri thoirt an
làthair an rìgh airson maitheanais fhaotainn, ach air a shlighe gu
Sasuinn, fhuaradh a mach gu 'n robh Niall 'n a chuideachd agus
ghlacadh e, airson a thoirt suas do 'n Chrùn. Chrochadh Niall treun am
baile Dhuneideann 's a' bhliadhna 1613. Cha robh aon de'n chinneadh an
Leòdhas riamh a bu treuna, 's a bu dìlse na Niall còir agus tha deagh
chuimhne air an Leòdhas fhathast.

'S e linn charraideach, bhuaireasach fhuileachdach a bha 's na ciad
bliadhna air an robh sinn a' bruidheann. Bha na Leodaich a' cogadh an
aghaidh an naimhdean, agus timchioll an teallaichean fhéin cha robh
sìth no sonas a' riaghladh. 'N uair a ghabh Clann Mhicchoinnich
Chinntàile sealbh air Leòdhas 's a' bhliadhna 1610, fhuair iad gu 'n
robh spiorad agus cumhachd an t-soisgeil marbh.

Chuir iad mar sin 's a' bhliadhna sin fhéin an t-Urr. Fearchar
Macrath, do Leòdhas, airson searmonachaidh an t-soisgeil. Tha e
coltach gu 'm b' e duine iomchuidh a bha so, agus fo theagasg thainig
an t-eilean air aghaidh ann an eolas an Sgriobtuir.

Ged a chaidh Clann 'Icleoid Leòdhais a chur fo chìs le Macchoinnich
Shi-phort, bha iad 'n an sgolb 's an fheoil dha fad iomadh bliadhna.
Gach uair a rachadh airm a' Chrùin do Leòdhas, bhitheadh Clann
'Icleoid a' dol fo 'm bratach an aghaidh Shi-phort, agus bha so a'
cumail suas spiorad na ceannairc a' meagg nan eileanach.

Bha Iarla Shi-phort dìleas do chùis Thearlaich a Dhà an còmhnuidh,
agus cheannaich a chuid fearainn agus a shluagh air sin. Chan 'eil
móran sam bith an eachdraidh mu chùisean Leòdhais bho 1644 gu 1660,
ach tha 'n cùnntas beag a leanas air a thoirt dhuinn leis an Ollamh
Macbheathain, agus tha e coltach gur h-ann an seann leabhar-latha dh'
fhàg neach eigin a fhuair e fhéin e.

"Air an deicheamh latha de 'n Lunasdail 1653, ghabh Còirneal Cobbet le
arm Chromwell, sealbh air an tairbeart (peninsula) air am bheil baile
Steòrnabhaigh air a thogail an diugh, agus air do gach inneal airm a
bha 's an àite bhi air an toirt suas dha, dhaingnich e 'n rudha, agus
dh' fhàg e Maidsear Crispe 'n a uachdaran air Leòdhas le ceithir
reiseamaidean shaighdeirean, dà ghunna-mhór agus ceithir
chroinn-tabhaill.

Air an là mu dheireadh de 'n Fhaoilteach 1654, chuireadh sgeul neònach
do Dhuneideann, gu 'n d' thug Shi-phort le ceithir chiad diag fear,
ionnsaidh air daingneach Steòrnabhaigh agus gun do ghlac e am baile.
Ach air a' cheathramh latha diag de 'n Ghearran 1654, chaidh an sgeul
a dhaingneachadh mar so.

Chaidh Tormod Macleoid air tìr aig Loch Seil, an Leòdhas, le cóig ciad
saighdear, agus air dha bhi am feall - fholach ré cheithir là, an
àit'-éigin, thainig e as am faireachadh air ar saighdeirean a bha air
taobh a muigh na daingnich an Steòrnabhagh, agus mharbh e dusan
dhiubh: chuir reiseamaid a bha 's an daingneach ruaig orra so, thug
iad cobhair do chàch, chuir iad am, biodh do 'n daingneach agus loisg
iad na tighean.

Aig deireadh a' Mhàrt thainig naidheachd gu Dailché gu 'n do mharbh na
saighdeirean a bha 's an daingneach an dream a lean bratach Shi-phort,
chath na Leodaich air aobh an airm againne, agus rinn na sgaraidhean
sin móran dolaidh anns na criochaibh."

Sin ann am beagan bhriathran, neo-iomlan agus cearbach cunntas goirid
air cuid de sheann eachdraidh eilein Leòdhais. 'N uair a smaoinicheas
sinn air cor buaireasach an eilein an uair ud - cor a bha fior mu na
Ghàidhealtachd air fad aig an àm, bu chòir dhuinn a bhi taingeil do 'n
Fhreasdal gu bheil ar beatha-ne ann an linn as sitheile agus as
soirbheachaile.

'S anns 's a' bhliadhna 1098, tha chiad iomradh againn air Eilean
Leòdhais ann an eachdraidh, mar eadar-dhealaichte bho an h-Innse-Ghall
eile.


The Highlander

Faodaidh nach ionann na beachdan anns
an post seo agus beachdan a' Ghàidheil.
The views expressed in this post are
not necessarily those of The Highlander.

Mad Dog ||((*/_*))||

Re: Most Brits Are Actually Spanish

Legg inn av Mad Dog ||((*/_*))|| » 21 okt 2006 23:13:56

ElGaucho wrote:
|| "Mad Dog ||((*/_*))||" <r.anthonybaldone@hotmail.com> wrote in
|| message
||
||| Oh yes you pair of shitehawkes the British really look like
||| Spaniard don't they, how could we have been so stupid not to have
||| noticed all these years.
||
|| They do. But you have to be an observer, not part of the scenery, of
|| course.
||
||| We have so much in common like torturing bulls and donkey's, and
||| all the women in Britain dress in black and sit on their arse's all
||| day don't they.
||
|| Not at all! Bulls are too big and risky. You guys reserve all the
|| torturing for those little animals, the wee, quite
|| inoffensive...foxes, isn't it?
||
|| The proving of the brave youth, the "bloodying" ceremony, quite a
|| feat, I say!
||
||| Also I hope you are a Spaniard giving us a lecture on Empire after
||| the misery you lot caused around the world with your genocide. It
||| was for the sake of humanity that we had to give you a good hiding
||| and take your gold off you.
||
|| Should we talk about genocides? You can't raise that issue, y'know?
||
||| However what goes around comes around I suppose as we are giving
||| you all our fucking hard earned money through that great gobshite
||| the E.U. Don't bite the hand that feeds you swarthy ignorant
||| fuckweeds.
||
|| That swarthy part is not reserved only for the Spanish. Just open
|| your fucking eyes! And not only from bloody bastards, like you lot,
|| but bastards from unknown Spanish fathers, so many of yous!
||
|| Up your ass! Take'em nice 'n easy as usual, fuckface!
||
|| Oscar

Up your own ass like your ancestors took it off the North Africans, fillern off
from here it's bad enough we have to subsidize your economy and hence your
standard of living at our expense. One bomb on a train and your left wing
Government shit their trousers and pulled your soldiers out of Iraq. Do you
know how many bombs were dropped on this country by your former friends.

Thank God for Effingham, Drake and Frobisher who kicked your black arseholes
all the way around the coast.

I dare you to take Gibraltar and while I am on the subject how can you claim
Gib when you have Cueta ?

--
"A horse a horse my kingdom for a horse, I haven't had a winner in six
months".

MD

ElGaucho

Re: Most Brits Are Actually Spanish

Legg inn av ElGaucho » 21 okt 2006 23:47:10

"The Highlander" <micheil@shaw.ca> wrote in message

SEANN EACHDRAIDH LEÒDHAIS
le Iain N. MacLeoid

'S anns 's a' bhliadhna 1098, tha chiad iomradh againn air eilean
Leòdhais ann an eachdraidh, mar eadar-dhealaichte bho an h-Innse-Ghall
eile. 'S a' bhliadhna sin chiosnaich rìgh Manus á Lochlunn na
h-Eileanan an Iar cho buileach 's gu 'm bheil bàrd na cùirte rioghail
aig an àm ag ràdh "gu'n robh deatach an léir-sgrios a' ruigheachd na
nèamhan os cionn Ljódhhús."

Ifrinn! Gaelic, mo charaid? (what a gowk!)

Tempora mutantur nos et mutamur in illis

And don't forget Culloden Field..

Slainte mhath y saludos,
Oscar

Brad Verity

Re: Reliability of IPMs (Eylesford)

Legg inn av Brad Verity » 22 okt 2006 00:00:15

Dear MM,

Comments interspersed.

Millerfairfield@aol.com wrote:

I was gobsmacked at the PRO on Friday last, studying the IPMs of members of
the Eylesford family of Tillington, Hds, Westbury, Glos, etc. A particular
problem was posed by the two IPMs of Isabel de la Mare, former wife of John
Eylesford of Tillington, Hds, both included in the national archives at
C138/58/40, but also printed in [I think accurate] translation in the published
calendar, available on the open shelves in the Map Reading room at Kew, 2nd floor.

I know that corner of the map room at the National Archives very well,
and have used the CIPM series there quite a bit. I'm eagerly awaiting
for the series, currently in the first half of the reign of Henry VI,
to complete itself and catch up to Henry VII.

Isabel de la Mare, wife of Richard, and former wife of Sir John de
Eylesford, has two IPMs in C/138/58/40 (1422)- one in Hds and one in Glos. I was able
to see the original writs (both referring to her as the wife of Richard de la
Mare and "nuper uxor" of John Eynesford [sic]of Tolyngton[sic]), and the IPMs
(in latin). The PRO also holds a modern printed translation, which I can
confirm as substantially correct.

Thanks for this post - I've been tracking Richard de la Mare (aka
Delamare), sheriff of Herefordshire, for a couple years now, as he was
the second husband of Alice Talbot, younger sister of the 1st Earl of
Shrewsbury. I knew he had a first wife Isabel, it's great now to know
her identity and more of her chronology.

I could not find a Shropshire IPM, although we know from the Calendar of
Patent Rolls that the Eylesfords acquired the manors of Buildwas and Isenbrigg,
both in Shropshire, held in chief, by the service of keeping the forests of
Shropshire, as well as the manor of Brimfield, Hds, from the Boulewas family.

Check the Calendar of Fine Rolls to see if a writ of diem clausit
extremum was issued to the escheator of Shropshire following Isabel
Delamare's death. If so, then the resulting IPM has been lost (or was
never undertaken). If not so, then either a) the Eylesford Shropshire
properties were not held of the king in chief, or b) by the time of her
death, Isabel Delamare held no interest in them.

But, alas, the VCH for Shropshire gives no details of the descent of the
Shriopshire manors

That's curious. Are the manors covered at all?

The Hds one shows her as dying 24th Sept 1421, and as holding:-
The manor of Brimfield in chief, by the service of keeping the Forest of Morf
Muryvale? and Tyberton (not held in chief)
Howton manor, by grant of Sir John de Ellesford [sic] and his wife Margaret
- Fine in CP25/1/83/51- reversion to R. de la Mare, remainder to John de
Mellesbourne, kinsman of John de Mellesbourne Kt: the manor held of John Merbury
and his wife Agnes

The fine regarding Howton manor was Isabel and her second husband
negotiating with the kinsman and heir (John Eylesford the younger) of
Isabel's first husband (John Eylesford the elder). She may have
exchanged other properties that were hers by right of dower (the
Shropshire ones?) for Howton. The fact that the manor would pass to
John de Mellesbourne (aka Milborne) after the death of Isabel and her
husband Richard Delamare, could indicate that John Milborne had a
kinship with the Eylesfords and/or Isabel, but it doesn't mean he HAD
to have had one. He could have been a loyal friend, attorney, etc.
whom the two childless couples (John and Margaret Eylesford, Isabel and
Richard Delamare) wished to reward in such a manner.

1/3 of the manor of Tillington, as dower, held of the Lord of Berkeley
Heir William Bourghull, aged 40 et amplius

Since Tillington was held by Isabel in dower, and was then an Eylesford
property, I would guess that William Bourghull was the Eylesford heir
in 1421. Do you know if John Eylesford the younger was dead by that
date?

The Gloucester one, showing her as dying 17th Sept 1421, and as holding:-
1/3 of the manor of Westbury, with reversion to John Merbury, John Brugge
and John Vyntier, esqs, by grant made by John Mellebourne, son of Peter
Mellebourne, to Isabel and her husband Richard de la Mare. On Isabel's death
Merbury, Brugge and Vyntier entered and granted Isabel's share of the manor to John
Mellebourne and his wife Elizabeth.

So John Milborne was clearly important to the childless Isabel, as she
made him, through fines, the heir to two Eylesford properties. That
this had to be done through fines indicates he was not the immediate
Eylesford heir (probably William Bourghull was).

Also a messuage at Bollow, held in chief as of the Duchy of Lancaster
Heir ["consanguineus et heres eiusdem"] John Barre, son of Thomas Barre
junior, knight, "aet octo annorum et amplius".

This more than likely is the key to Isabel's parentage: she was a Barre
of Barr's Court, Herefordshire, the daughter (or possibly sister) of
Thomas Barre 'Senior' (d. 1421), and sister (or possibly aunt) of Sir
Thomas Barre, Junior, the father of 8-year-old John Barre, Isabel's
nephew and heir. If a woman died childless, her next heir of blood
would be her eldest brother or his issue.

It also helps explain the second marriage of Alice Talbot and Richard
Delamare - they were surviving spouses of two siblings, Thomas Barre
'Junior' and his sister Isabel Barre Eylesford.

Here then we have some serious problems, which I have shared with Michael
Andrews-Reading (mjcar). He agrees that they are worth airing on SGM.

I offer the following notes on the above documents:-
1. There is plenty of evidence that the manor of Tillington (in the parish
of Burghill, Hds)
eventually descended through the Milborne family to the philoprogenitive
Simon Milborne (died 1522, IPM at Kew). Burghill church contains a rather
battered monument to his father John Milborne in armour, and in the church there is
exhibited a note that this John was the husband of Elizabeth Devereux,
daughter of the Devereux killed at the battle of Pilleth

Tillington, though, likely did not become the property of John
Milborne, husband of Elizabeth Devereux, through inheritance, but
rather through the process of fines (a form of purchase, in a way). I
imagine that once he negotiated the third of the manor that Isabel held
in dower, he proceeded to negotiate gaining the remaining two-thirds
from whoever the Eylesford heir was (John Eylesford the Younger, or
after him, William Bourghill?).

2. Simon Milborne's daughters' marriages, and many of their descendants,
have been extensively discussed on SGM
3. The Bourghull/Burghill family, and their dealings with the Berkeley
family, are copiously referred to to the Berkeley Castle archives in
_www.a2a.org.uk_ (http://www.a2a.org.uk)

Were there any marriages between the two families?

4. The IPM of Sir John Eylesford of Tillington is in the national archives,
dated 1396, and shows his heir- by a somewhat remote collateral descent- as
being Sir John Eylesford the younger. The IPM does however present an entirely
plausible descent of the two cousins, from their common ancestors, sons of
William de E and his Furnival wife. The Eylesfords mentioned in the Calendar of
Close Rolls for the period include Gerald, Richard, Edmund, John, John and
Hugh

If they had to go so far back to a distant cousin when Sir John
Eylesford the Elder died in 1396, it may explain why his widow Isabel
and heir John Eylesford the Younger were willing to alienate the lands
to John Milborne.

5. The older Sir John E (died 1396, many times Knight of the shire of
Hereford, and King's Knight to Edward III and Richard II) is not known to have had
any other wife than the Isabel (parentage unknown) who died in September
1421.

If Isabel was a daughter of Thomas Barre 'Senior' then she was likely
young when married to Sir John Eylesford the Elder, and married fairly
soon before his death. Thomas Barre 'Junior' married Anne Talbot in
1411.

I think it possible that she may have been a Burghhill, which might account
for her husband having acquired Tillington. And of course that would also
explain the finding in PRO C138/58/40 that her heir was Walter de Bourghull.

Yet the Gloucestershire IPM called young John Barre, Isabel's "kinsman"
("consanguineus") as well as heir, with Burghill only being described
(apparently) as heir in the Herefordshire IPM. This would seem to
indicate Barre was her heir of blood while Burghill was the heir to the
properties (which were Eylesford ones).

But this Sir John and his wife Isabel cannot have had any children by their
marriage, since if they had had children those children would have been his
heirs to the exclusion of the younger Sir John, his heir, and also his wife's
heirs to the exclusion of this otherwise (to me) unknown Walter Bourghull

Correct.

6. The younger Sir John, heir of the elder Sir John, is known to have
married as her second husband Margaret Swillington, heiress of Bolley and of the
hundred of Framland. But her heir was a Cromwell, who did not inherit any of
the Eylesford properties, so it seems that she could not have had issue by her
second husband

Correct. So it also seems likely that Sir John Eylesford the Younger
also died without issue, which would explain a Burghull as heir. This
works if the younger Sir John died before Isabel. I would imagine,
though, there would have been an IPM for him.

7. There is the possibility that the younger Sir John E had been married
before his marriage to Margaret Swillington

Yes, and either John Milburne or William Burghull could have been a
nephew, son-in-law, etc.

8. Some traditions have it that one of the Sir John Eylesfords was married
to an Isabel de la Barre. But it seems clear that this Isabel cannot have
been the lady who died in 1421, or the wife of the younger Sir John, since he
had already been married long before then to Margaret Swillington. However the
Herefordshire IPM of Isabel, showing her heir as the infant de la Barre boy,
does suggest that one of the Eylesford knights had indeed married a de la
Barre. Did Sir John E the elder perhaps marry an Isabel de la Barre? If there
was such a marriage it must have been childless, or else Isabel's heir would
have been one of her children

It would appear that Sir John Eylesford the Elder did indeed marry
Isabel Barre, and died, as you have researched, childless, as also did
Isabel, despite her second marriage to Richard Delamare.

Anyway, in these mists of antiquity, I find myself totally baffled.
All guidance welcomed

Not totally baffled, by any means. You've deduced most of it. The
connection of William Burghull to these Eylesford properties needs to
be more firmly established, and if Sir John Eylesford the Younger,
husband of Margaret Swillington, died after 1421, then things do get
rather complicated, as in that case he would have been the heir to all
of the properties Isabel held on behalf of her Eylesford first
marriage, and should appear so on her IPMs.

I hope this is of some assistance and look forward to your further
research.

Cheers, -------------Brad

ElGaucho

Re: Most Brits Are Actually Spanish

Legg inn av ElGaucho » 22 okt 2006 00:07:03

"Mad Dog ||((*/_*))||" <r.anthonybaldone@hotmail.com> wrote in message

Up your own ass like your ancestors took it off the North Africans, fillern
off from here it's bad enough we have to subsidize your economy and hence
your standard of living at our expense.

Tsk Tsk tsk... Bad beginnings, asswipe. My ancentors...mine gave yours such
a beating you had to leave with your tail between your legs.. But, that was
in the deep South of SA, where I was born. By the way, you didn't notice
I'm writing to you from BC in Canada. I KNOW your sort, fuckface.

*One bomb on a train and your left wing
Government shit their trousers and pulled your soldiers out of Iraq. Do
you

Which government stopped being part of the horrible mess you made in Iraq,
you bloody ignorant fool!

You know how many bombs were dropped on this country by your former
friends.

Evidently, not enough...somehow you came afloat like the smelly turd you
are.

Thank God for Effingham, Drake and Frobisher who kicked your black
arseholes all the way around the coast.

Blah blah blah....Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

I dare you to take Gibraltar and while I am on the subject how can you
claim Gib when you have Cueta ?

With all the shit I hear that's going on in Gibraltar, I doubt the Spanish
government would want to touch that smelly place. I hear you think it's
yours, but really, that's the place your betters created to hide and launder
their money. Money they steal from you lot, every single day.

Ha!
Oscar

Gurriato

Re: Most Brits Are Actually Spanish

Legg inn av Gurriato » 22 okt 2006 00:17:22

"ElGaucho" <gamo@vcn.bc.ca> wrote in message


Ifrinn! Gaelic, mo charaid? (what a gowk!)

Tempora mutantur nos et mutamur in illis

And don't forget Culloden Field..

Slainte mhath y saludos,


Pog mo thón, Gauchito.

LA BESTIA

ElGaucho

Re: Most Brits Are Actually Spanish

Legg inn av ElGaucho » 22 okt 2006 01:20:14

"Gurriato" <patanegra@netnitco.net> wrote in message
news:XPqdnRol94PrN6fYnZ2dnUVZ_rCdnZ2d@netnitco.net...
"ElGaucho" <gamo@vcn.bc.ca> wrote in message


Ifrinn! Gaelic, mo charaid? (what a gowk!)

Tempora mutantur nos et mutamur in illis

And don't forget Culloden Field..

Slainte mhath y saludos,


Pog mo thón, Gauchito.

LA BESTIA

Téigh trasna ort féin, Gurris, encanto.

EL BAGUAL

Earle Horton

Re: Most Brits Are Actually Spanish

Legg inn av Earle Horton » 22 okt 2006 01:36:17

Maybe this does demonstrate some common ancestry. Tsk, tsk.

Saludos,

Earle

"ElGaucho" <gamo@vcn.bc.ca> wrote in message
news:ehe974$jc8$1@luna.vcn.bc.ca...
"Mad Dog ||((*/_*))||" <r.anthonybaldone@hotmail.com> wrote in message

Up your own ass like your ancestors took it off the North Africans, fillern
off from here it's bad enough we have to subsidize your economy and
hence
your standard of living at our expense.

Tsk Tsk tsk... Bad beginnings, asswipe. My ancentors...mine gave yours
such
a beating you had to leave with your tail between your legs.. But, that
was
in the deep South of SA, where I was born. By the way, you didn't notice
I'm writing to you from BC in Canada. I KNOW your sort, fuckface.

*One bomb on a train and your left wing
Government shit their trousers and pulled your soldiers out of Iraq. Do
you

Which government stopped being part of the horrible mess you made in Iraq,
you bloody ignorant fool!

You know how many bombs were dropped on this country by your former
friends.

Evidently, not enough...somehow you came afloat like the smelly turd you
are.

Thank God for Effingham, Drake and Frobisher who kicked your black
arseholes all the way around the coast.

Blah blah blah....Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

I dare you to take Gibraltar and while I am on the subject how can you
claim Gib when you have Cueta ?

With all the shit I hear that's going on in Gibraltar, I doubt the Spanish
government would want to touch that smelly place. I hear you think it's
yours, but really, that's the place your betters created to hide and
launder
their money. Money they steal from you lot, every single day.

Ha!
Oscar





--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Gjest

Re: Kunigunda Rostislavna, Queen of Bohemia: Rurikid gateway

Legg inn av Gjest » 22 okt 2006 02:45:03

Dear Anthony,
Kunigunde was also an ancestress of all the Stewart
rulers after James II died 1460 whose queen, Mary of Guelders was a great
granddaughter of John, Duke of Burgundy who was a grandson of John II, King of
France by Bonne / Jutta of Bohemia-Luxembourg. (Philip II, Duke of Burgundy was
their son and John`s father) (See Genealogics)
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

The Highlander

Re: Most Brits Are Actually Spanish

Legg inn av The Highlander » 22 okt 2006 04:15:27

On Sat, 21 Oct 2006 15:47:10 -0700, "ElGaucho" <gamo@vcn.bc.ca> wrote:

"The Highlander" <micheil@shaw.ca> wrote in message

SEANN EACHDRAIDH LEÒDHAIS
le Iain N. MacLeoid

'S anns 's a' bhliadhna 1098, tha chiad iomradh againn air eilean
Leòdhais ann an eachdraidh, mar eadar-dhealaichte bho an h-Innse-Ghall
eile. 'S a' bhliadhna sin chiosnaich rìgh Manus á Lochlunn na
h-Eileanan an Iar cho buileach 's gu 'm bheil bàrd na cùirte rioghail
aig an àm ag ràdh "gu'n robh deatach an léir-sgrios a' ruigheachd na
nèamhan os cionn Ljódhhús."

Ifrinn! Gaelic, mo charaid? (what a gowk!)

Tempora mutantur nos et mutamur in illis

And don't forget Culloden Field..

Slainte mhath y saludos,
Oscar

Uell, uell, uell! Tha Gàidhlig agad-sa! Agus a'fuirich ann an B.C.!


Ca bheil thu - ann an Bhancuibhear no ait' eile?

"What a gowk!" is not the friendliest thing you could say about me.
You must be a big powerful fellow, full of piss and vinegar, to say
that to a Highlander who lives so close to you...

The Highlander

Faodaidh nach ionann na beachdan anns
an post seo agus beachdan a' Ghàidheil.
The views expressed in this post are
not necessarily those of The Highlander.

Gurriato

Re: Most Brits Are Actually Spanish

Legg inn av Gurriato » 22 okt 2006 05:49:45

"The Highlander" <micheil@shaw.ca> wrote:

You must be a big powerful fellow, full of piss and vinegar, to say
that to a Highlander who lives so close to you...

And you must be an idiot from Brigadoon (and probably an alcoholic),
suckling vigorously from the udder of Englishness all the while protesting
that you are Scottish, really (cosa que a un servidor le importa un huevo
de pato, como podrás suponer)

I don't care about your Goddamned tribal gibberish. I am no Scotologist and
I believe that Gaelic speakers are perverts with post-ejaculatory sexual
obsession disorder.

Besides you suffer from the disease called "Scot scrotum", a medical
condition causing the scrotum to swell and turn purple (similar to a large
aubergene, eggplant or berenjena) which can be brought on by wearing a
kilt in january in the Highlands.

Que te folle un pez.

LA BESTIA IBERICA

The Highlander

Re: Most Brits Are Actually Spanish

Legg inn av The Highlander » 22 okt 2006 08:14:34

On Sat, 21 Oct 2006 23:49:45 -0500, "Gurriato"
<patanegra@netnitco.net> wrote:

"The Highlander" <micheil@shaw.ca> wrote:

You must be a big powerful fellow, full of piss and vinegar, to say
that to a Highlander who lives so close to you...

And you must be an idiot from Brigadoon (and probably an alcoholic),
suckling vigorously from the udder of Englishness all the while protesting
that you are Scottish, really (cosa que a un servidor le importa un huevo
de pato, como podrás suponer)

I don't care about your Goddamned tribal gibberish. I am no Scotologist and
I believe that Gaelic speakers are perverts with post-ejaculatory sexual
obsession disorder.

Besides you suffer from the disease called "Scot scrotum", a medical
condition causing the scrotum to swell and turn purple (similar to a large
aubergene, eggplant or berenjena) which can be brought on by wearing a
kilt in january in the Highlands.

Que te folle un pez.

LA BESTIA IBERICA

I look forward to visiting you.



The Highlander

Faodaidh nach ionann na beachdan anns
an post seo agus beachdan a' Ghàidheil.
The views expressed in this post are
not necessarily those of The Highlander.

dwilcox

Re: Most Brits Are Actually Spanish

Legg inn av dwilcox » 22 okt 2006 08:43:06

"D. Spencer Hines" wrote:
Deeeeeelightful!

And it looks like most Yanks will soon be mexican..
--
Search for over 400,000 Black Sheep, Police, Railways, Mining, Wills and
WWI & II at: http://www.lightage.demon.co.uk

Mad Dog ||((*/_*))||

Re: Most Brits Are Actually Spanish

Legg inn av Mad Dog ||((*/_*))|| » 22 okt 2006 10:31:36

ElGaucho wrote:
|| "Mad Dog ||((*/_*))||" <r.anthonybaldone@hotmail.com> wrote in
|| message
||
||| Up your own ass like your ancestors took it off the North Africans,
||| fillern off from here it's bad enough we have to subsidize your
||| economy and hence your standard of living at our expense.
||
|| Tsk Tsk tsk... Bad beginnings, asswipe. My ancentors...mine gave
|| yours such a beating you had to leave with your tail between your
|| legs.. But, that was in the deep South of SA, where I was born. By
|| the way, you didn't notice I'm writing to you from BC in Canada. I
|| KNOW your sort, fuckface.
||
|| *One bomb on a train and your left wing
||| Government shit their trousers and pulled your soldiers out of
||| Iraq. Do you
||
|| Which government stopped being part of the horrible mess you made in
|| Iraq, you bloody ignorant fool!
||
I could not care less where you are posting from shitehawk, take your
effluent back from whence it came and shove it up your black arsehole.

--
"A horse a horse my kingdom for a horse, I haven't had a winner in six
months".

MD

Gjest

Re: Eylesford and Boulewas/Buildwas

Legg inn av Gjest » 22 okt 2006 13:15:04

On 22nd October, in a post on which Brad Verity has since commented very
fully and helpfully (thanks, Brad), I wrote:

I could not find a Shropshire IPM, although we know from the Calendar of
Patent Rolls that the Eylesfords acquired the manors of Buildwas and
Isenbrigg,
both in Shropshire, held in chief, by the service of keeping the forests
of
Shropshire, as well as the manor of Brimfield, Hds, from the Boulewas
family.



Here is the explanation, from the Patent Rolls, available on line thanks to
Professor Boynton of the University of Iowa
(_http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/_ (http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/) ):-
"1396 March 29, York. Licence for 20s paid to the King by Isabel, late the
wife of John Eyllesford, knight, for her to enfeoff Robert, bishop of London,
Edward Hamdene, John Hervey and Hugh Harper, clerk, of the manors of Boulewas
and Isumbrigge, co. Salop and Bremfeld, co. Hereford, held in chief, and for
the feoffees, after seisin had, to re-enfeoff her of the premises for life,
with remainder, in fee, to Gerard Braybrooke the younger, knight."
Perhaps there was no need for an IPM to be taken in Shropshire, since her
only estate there was a life estate, and Gerald Braybrooke or his sucessors
could enter as of right on her death.

It may be helpful that I should set out two earlier entries from the Patent
Rolls, which show how the Eylesfords had originally acquired these Shropshire
properties:-

"1362 Oct. 26, at Westminster. On the petition of John
de Eylesford showing that, whereas the manors of Boulewas and Isenbrugg by
pretext of a recognisance of 1,000l.. made by John de Bolewas, knight, deceased,
to John de Burley, knight, Adam Esgare, clerk, of Frome, and Thomas de
Barre, by process in the king's court made against John, son and heir of the said
John de Bolewas, and Thomas Cotes were delivered to the said John, Adam and
Thomas to hold until they were satisfied of the said 1,000l.. and they
afterwards delivered the manors to Pernell late the wife of the said John de
Boulewas to hold in form aforesaid, the said Pernell subsequently granted her estate
in the manors to him but the manors which are held in chief have been taken
into the king's hand on account of an alienation of them by the said John,
the son, to the said Thomas Cotes made without the king's licence ; the king,
in consideration of the good service done by the petitioner, has granted the
manors to him, to hold with the issues from the time of the taking of them
into the king's hand, for such time as they remain in his hand on this account,
without rendering anything for them, saving the fine to be made with the king
on account of the said trespass, which made the manors shall be delivered to
him to hold as before.


" 1369 March 16, at Westminster. Whereas the manors of Boulewas
and Isenbrugge and the advowson of the church of the first-named manor, held in
chief, had been taken into the king's hand because of an alienation made
thereof by John son of John de Boulewas, knight (militis), to Thomas Cotes,
without his licence, and while they were in his hand, the said John son of John
intruded himself into them over the king's seisin and Thomas remitted
all right therein to him, without the king's licence, whereby the manors and
advowson have been seized again in to the king's hand, and the keeping
thereof committed to John de Eylesford, knight; the king, for 80l. to be paid to
him by the said John son of John, has pardoned the trespasses in the premises,
and granted that John son of John shall retain the manors and advowson; he
has also granted licence for him to grant the same and the reversion of the
manor of Brymfeld co. Hereford, likewise held in chief, expectant on the demise
of Pernell late the wife of the said John de Boulewas, to Hugh de Monyton,
Thomas de Burghope, John de Stretton, Roger Partrich and their heirs, and for
them to grant the manors, advowson and reversion to him in tail, with
remainder to the said John de Eylesford and Esabel his wife, in fee. Be it
remembered that this pardon was first granted by the chancellor by fine of 100l. and
afterwards the council reduced the fine by 20l. as being
excessive."

These entries do not make it clear whether there was any family relationship
between the Boulwas family and Sir John Eylesford or his wife Isabel. Nor
indeed is it clear whether this couple are identical with the Sir John "the
elder" (IPM 1396) and his widow Isabel, remarried to Richard Delamere. But I
believe that they are identical, on the strength of the following document which
I reproduce from the National Archives:-

"
SC/8/215/10730 [1377-1399]
Scope and content Petitioners: John de Eylisford [sic].
Addressees: King and council.
Places mentioned: Buildwas, Shropshire; Isombridge, Shropshire; Brimfield,
Herefordshire.
Other people mentioned: John [de Buildwas], son of John de Buildwas; John de
Boulewas (Buildwas); Isabel [de Eylisford], wife of the petitioner.
Nature of request: Eylisford recounts that the manors of Buildwas,
Isombridge and Brimfield are held, and always have been held, of the King by the
services of keeping all the King's forests and hays in Shropshire, and it was
found by inquest in the time of the King's grandfather that John de Buildwas
the son held these manors at his death and died without an heir so that the
remainder went to the petitioner and Isabel, his wife, and their heirs by the
said services, but the office of keeping all the King's forests and hays in
Shropshire was seised into the hand of the King's grandfather and remains in
the King's hand. Eylisford
requests that he have delivery of the said office or that a writ of scire
facias be granted to the office's current tenant.
Endorsement: This bill should be sent to the Chancery and the justice of the
forest, the King's serjeants and others named in the bill summoned so that
justice can be done."

This document certainly implies that neither Sir John nor Isabel was heir to
John de Buildwas: but either of them could have been heir to Pernell, or to
another member of the Boulewas/Buildwas family

MM

William Black

Re: The Last of the Neanderthal

Legg inn av William Black » 22 okt 2006 13:22:59

"The Spanish Paranoia" <laparanoia@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1161519060.610933.288960@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

If two small nations like Spain and Britain had agreed to join their
forces, they will now control Planet Earth.
Instead they chose to fight each other.
Typically Neandertalish.

------------------------------------

Actually at one point they tried.

When Mary I married Philip of Spain.

However Spanish insistence that English traders be excluded from the New
World 'because the Pope said so' killed that one stone dead and we went back
to looting ships.

I think the term I'm looking for here is 'Priest ridden'.


--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

ElGaucho

Re: Most Brits Are Actually Spanish

Legg inn av ElGaucho » 22 okt 2006 13:34:42

"Mad Dog ||((*/_*))||" <r.anthonybaldone@hotmail.com> wrote in message

I could not care less where you are posting from shitehawk, take your
effluent back from whence it came and shove it up your black arsehole.

Far be it from me any trying to keep you from your delightful pastime,
faggot cockgobbler. Enjoy life!

Birds

Re: Reliability of IPMs (Eylesford)

Legg inn av Birds » 22 okt 2006 13:37:59

Millerfairfield@aol.com schreef:

I was gobsmacked

Gobsmacked? That's a new expression for me. Care to enlighten me?

Hans Vogels

ElGaucho

Re: Most Brits Are Actually Spanish

Legg inn av ElGaucho » 22 okt 2006 14:04:16

"The Highlander" <micheil@shaw.ca> wrote in message

Uell, uell, uell! Tha Gàidhlig agad-sa! Agus a'fuirich ann an B.C.!

Ca bheil thu - ann an Bhancuibhear no ait' eile?

Vancouver, mo charaid. And don't tax me with Gaelic, I learned a bit playing
soccer with fellows from the Isles, many moons ago.

"What a gowk!" is not the friendliest thing you could say about me.
You must be a big powerful fellow, full of piss and vinegar, to say
that to a Highlander who lives so close to you...

I know. Just wanted to know if it still carried the same punch :-)
Oscar

Gjest

Re: Reliability of IPMs (Eylesford)

Legg inn av Gjest » 22 okt 2006 16:05:03

Birds writes:

Millerfairfield@aol.com schreef:

I was gobsmacked

Gobsmacked? That's a new expression for me. Care to enlighten me?

Hans Vogels

gob = slang for mouth, such as "shut your gob" = stop talking


gobsmacked - you are so astounded by sheer cheek / outrageousness /
affrontery of something that you are unable to reply

Frankie Howerd would say that his gob had never been so smacked

cheers

Simon

William Marshall

Re: Kunigunda Rostislavna, Queen of Bohemia: Rurikid gateway

Legg inn av William Marshall » 22 okt 2006 16:08:04

Peter Stewart wrote:
According to Nicolas de Baumgarten [G€n€alogies et mariages occidentaux des
Rurikides du Xe au XIIIe si€cle, _Orientalia Christiana_ 9/1 (1927), table
8], his father Svjatoslav (exiled in 1129) was the sixth son of Vseslav I of
Polotsk, grand prince of Kiev 1068-1069 (died 14 April 1101), by an unknown
wife. Vseslav I was son of Briacheslav of Polotsk (died 1044), son of
Isjaslav (died 1001), son of St Vladimir the Great by his wife Rognieda.

Should this be treated as a correction to ES II-127, where it
shows Isjaslaw as son of Rogneida by her first husband, an unknown
Jarl in Sweden? Was he instead a son of St Vladimir?

Bill Marshall
wtm@research.att.com

Gjest

Re: The Last of the Neanderthal

Legg inn av Gjest » 22 okt 2006 18:46:02

Dear Laparanoia,
For some time now I`ve been convinvced that the
Neanderthal peoples have interbred with the Cro Magnons on a large scale. I
further suggess that Grendel and his mother of the Beowulf legend were in fact
Neanderthal and Ibn Khaldun who explored the Scandanavian area around 922 also
encountered some pure Neanderthals (See the book / film " The Thirteenth Warrior"
by Michael Crichton or better Ibn Khaldun`s own account.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

Birds

Re: Reliability of IPMs (Eylesford)

Legg inn av Birds » 22 okt 2006 19:28:33

Thanks Simon.

My dictonary kept me in the dark. I thought that from the context it
had to be something like stunned or baffled.

Hans

fairthorne@breathe.com schreef:

Birds writes:


Millerfairfield@aol.com schreef:

I was gobsmacked

Gobsmacked? That's a new expression for me. Care to enlighten me?

Hans Vogels

gob = slang for mouth, such as "shut your gob" = stop talking

gobsmacked - you are so astounded by sheer cheek / outrageousness /
affrontery of something that you are unable to reply

Frankie Howerd would say that his gob had never been so smacked

cheers

Simon

D. Spencer Hines

Re: James Graham [1612-1650] 1st Marquis of Montrose

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 22 okt 2006 19:56:44

Of course anyone who is closely related to James Graham, 1st Marquis of
Montrose, is also closely related to the Scottish Kings, Robert The Bruce et
alii -- because the Marquis is a descendant of James IV of Scotland -- and
also of Edward III of England.

So, that's tens of millions of us too.

No Big Deal -- But Charming, Intriguing & Provocative -- one of the many
charms of British Genealogy.

It gives us folks from the past -- to whom we are closely related, or
actually descended from, and whom we can read about and study -- not just
faceless ancestors of whom we know little.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Veritas Vos Liberabit

Peter

Re: James Graham [1612-1650] 1st Marquis of Montrose

Legg inn av Peter » 22 okt 2006 20:28:02

On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 19:56:44 +0100, "D. Spencer Hines"
<poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote:

Of course anyone who is closely related to James Graham, 1st Marquis of
Montrose, is also closely related to the Scottish Kings, Robert The Bruce et
alii -- because the Marquis is a descendant of James IV of Scotland -- and
also of Edward III of England.

So, that's tens of millions of us too.

No Big Deal -- But Charming, Intriguing & Provocative -- one of the many
charms of British Genealogy.

It gives us folks from the past -- to whom we are closely related, or
actually descended from, and whom we can read about and study -- not just
faceless ancestors of whom we know little.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Veritas Vos Liberabit


You would be far better off wirting to the Kennel Club for details of
your ancestors.

--
Peter

D Spencer Hines est a deficio miles militis quod stultus

The Highlander

Re: Most Brits Are Actually Spanish

Legg inn av The Highlander » 22 okt 2006 21:19:11

On Sat, 21 Oct 2006 23:49:45 -0500, "Gurriato"
<patanegra@netnitco.net> wrote:

"The Highlander" <micheil@shaw.ca> wrote:

You must be a big powerful fellow, full of piss and vinegar, to say
that to a Highlander who lives so close to you...

And you must be an idiot from Brigadoon (and probably an alcoholic),
suckling vigorously from the udder of Englishness all the while protesting
that you are Scottish, really (cosa que a un servidor le importa un huevo
de pato, como podrás suponer)

I don't care about your Goddamned tribal gibberish. I am no Scotologist and
I believe that Gaelic speakers are perverts with post-ejaculatory sexual
obsession disorder.

Besides you suffer from the disease called "Scot scrotum", a medical
condition causing the scrotum to swell and turn purple (similar to a large
aubergene, eggplant or berenjena) which can be brought on by wearing a
kilt in january in the Highlands.

Que te folle un pez.

LA BESTIA IBERICA

What a charming interlude in my otherwise humdrum day.

The Highlander

Faodaidh nach ionann na beachdan anns
an post seo agus beachdan a' Ghàidheil.
The views expressed in this post are
not necessarily those of The Highlander.

The Highlander

Re: Most Brits Are Actually Spanish

Legg inn av The Highlander » 22 okt 2006 21:21:42

On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 06:04:16 -0700, "ElGaucho" <gamo@vcn.bc.ca> wrote:

"The Highlander" <micheil@shaw.ca> wrote in message

Uell, uell, uell! Tha Gàidhlig agad-sa! Agus a'fuirich ann an B.C.!

Ca bheil thu - ann an Bhancuibhear no ait' eile?

Vancouver, mo charaid. And don't tax me with Gaelic, I learned a bit playing
soccer with fellows from the Isles, many moons ago.

"What a gowk!" is not the friendliest thing you could say about me.
You must be a big powerful fellow, full of piss and vinegar, to say
that to a Highlander who lives so close to you...

I know. Just wanted to know if it still carried the same punch :-)
Oscar

I don't care to be characterized as 'it' when querying my ability to

take out a Latino armed with a mere shiv.

The Highlander

Faodaidh nach ionann na beachdan anns
an post seo agus beachdan a' Ghàidheil.
The views expressed in this post are
not necessarily those of The Highlander.

Earle Horton

Re: Most Brits Are Actually Spanish

Legg inn av Earle Horton » 22 okt 2006 23:00:43

"Gurriato" <patanegra@netnitco.net> wrote in message
news:Gredndk7bO8ffabYnZ2dnUVZ_oGdnZ2d@netnitco.net...
"ElGaucho" <gamo@vcn.bc.ca> wrote in message
news:ehglbo$dhh$1@luna.vcn.bc.ca...

Let's go, Mac. Loser buys the beer.

No matter if we win or lose this game, we will still be winners,
because when this McIdiot waken up tomorrow he'll still be
UN PUTO ESCOCES and we won't.

According to what that Bryan Sykes fellow says, you and he are the

next best thing to cousins.

"wakes up tomorrow"

Saludos,

Earle




--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Gurriato

Re: Most Brits Are Actually Spanish

Legg inn av Gurriato » 22 okt 2006 23:08:45

"Earle Horton" <anglocapitalista@usa.com> wrote in message
news:453bdd23$0$19691$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...
"Gurriato" <patanegra@netnitco.net> wrote in message
news:Gredndk7bO8ffabYnZ2dnUVZ_oGdnZ2d@netnitco.net...

"ElGaucho" <gamo@vcn.bc.ca> wrote in message
news:ehglbo$dhh$1@luna.vcn.bc.ca...

Let's go, Mac. Loser buys the beer.

No matter if we win or lose this game, we will still be winners,
because when this McIdiot waken up tomorrow he'll still be
UN PUTO ESCOCES and we won't.

According to what that Bryan Sykes fellow says, you and he are the
next best thing to cousins.

Sí, pero yo no tengo caspa en los zapatos como él ni me alimento con gachas
de avena.

GURRITEMBERG

Peter Stewart

Re: Kunigunda Rostislavna, Queen of Bohemia: Rurikid gateway

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 22 okt 2006 23:13:17

"William Marshall" <wtm@research.att.com> wrote in message
news:200610221331.k9MDVt4l9556314@chips.research.att.com...
Peter Stewart wrote:
According to Nicolas de Baumgarten [GÂ?nÂ?alogies et mariages occidentaux
des
Rurikides du Xe au XIIIe siÂ?cle, _Orientalia Christiana_ 9/1 (1927),
table
8], his father Svjatoslav (exiled in 1129) was the sixth son of Vseslav I
of
Polotsk, grand prince of Kiev 1068-1069 (died 14 April 1101), by an
unknown
wife. Vseslav I was son of Briacheslav of Polotsk (died 1044), son of
Isjaslav (died 1001), son of St Vladimir the Great by his wife Rognieda.

Should this be treated as a correction to ES II-127, where it
shows Isjaslaw as son of Rogneida by her first husband, an unknown
Jarl in Sweden? Was he instead a son of St Vladimir?

More likely the other way round, ES was apparently proposing a correction to
Baumgarten - perhaps a different interpretation of the same evidence,
although it may be just a conjecture.

The only reference for this connection given by Baumgarten was Mikhail
Pogodin, and presumably both of these major modern authorities would have
been taken into account by ES.

Peter Stewart

Mad Dog ||((*/_*))||

Re: Most Brits Are Actually Spanish

Legg inn av Mad Dog ||((*/_*))|| » 23 okt 2006 00:38:53

ElGaucho wrote:
|| "The Highlander" <micheil@shaw.ca> wrote in message
||
|||| I know. Just wanted to know if it still carried the same punch :-)
|||| Oscar
||
||| I don't care to be characterized as 'it' when querying my ability to
||| take out a Latino armed with a mere shiv.
||
|| Characterized as "it"? Your ability to "take out" a Latino armed
|| with what? a shiv? Okay-dockey....
||
|| Weel, chum... I did try to be affable. Yes, sir. But, I assure you
|| that it's not my style to query anybody's ability if I detect they
|| are thinking in terms of taking out ?? anybody.
||
|| Hell! I don't take out people, I'm not even armed.... but giving
|| them a bloody nose, or making them lose a few teeth, that always
|| gladdens and warms me heart, boyo!
||
|| Would you like to try?? We're are not that far away, after all
|| (are we?? Main and 40th. here There's always an empty field behind a
|| school or something.
||
|| Let's go, Mac. Loser buys the beer.
|| Oscar

Hey Gecko you a linguist translate this from the most commonly spoken
language in Uruguay.

Per piacere, quanto
|| vecchie sono le vostre sorelle? Lasci qualcun'altro del vostro
|| villaggio uso il computer, non dimenticar di guardare le capre.

--
"A horse a horse my kingdom for a horse, I haven't had a winner in six
months".

MD

Begoluna

Re: Most Brits Are Actually Spanish

Legg inn av Begoluna » 23 okt 2006 01:32:45

"Mad Dog ||\(\(*/_*\)\)||" <r.anthonybaldone@hotmail.com> wrote in --

MD

¿Eres chihuahua o pitbull?? :-)

=.=
RN
=.=

The Highlander

Re: Most Brits Are Actually Spanish

Legg inn av The Highlander » 23 okt 2006 03:42:16

On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 13:46:33 -0700, "ElGaucho" <gamo@vcn.bc.ca> wrote:

"The Highlander" <micheil@shaw.ca> wrote in message

I know. Just wanted to know if it still carried the same punch :-)
Oscar

I don't care to be characterized as 'it' when querying my ability to
take out a Latino armed with a mere shiv.

Characterized as "it"? Your ability to "take out" a Latino armed with what?
a shiv? Okay-dockey....

Weel, chum... I did try to be affable. Yes, sir. But, I assure you that it's
not my style to query anybody's ability if I detect they are thinking in
terms of taking out ?? anybody.

Hell! I don't take out people, I'm not even armed.... but giving them a
bloody nose, or making them lose a few teeth, that always gladdens and warms
me heart, boyo!

Would you like to try?? We're are not that far away, after all (are we??
Main and 40th. here There's always an empty field behind a school or
something.

Let's go, Mac. Loser buys the beer.
Oscar

Not in our culture he doesn't, the winner calls an ambulance and

leaves before the cops arrive. And as for a bloody nose or a few teeth
missing - in Scotland men fight with knives - in fact the government
just passed a law there forbidding people to buy swords as that seems
to be the weapon of choice these days - I agree, it's a bit too much.





The Highlander

Faodaidh nach ionann na beachdan anns
an post seo agus beachdan a' Ghàidheil.
The views expressed in this post are
not necessarily those of The Highlander.

The Highlander

Re: Most Brits Are Actually Spanish

Legg inn av The Highlander » 23 okt 2006 04:36:10

On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 16:20:24 -0500, "Gurriato"
<patanegra@netnitco.net> wrote:

"ElGaucho" <gamo@vcn.bc.ca> wrote in message
news:ehglbo$dhh$1@luna.vcn.bc.ca...

Let's go, Mac. Loser buys the beer.

No matter if we win or lose this game, we will still be winners, because
when this McIdiot waken up tomorrow he'll still be UN PUTO ESCOCES and we
won't.

GURRIATEMBERG

Jesus God, if you're already talking about losing, you'd better sit

down and think over what you're getting yourselves into. I take this
sort of thing very seriously; Ive had far too many heroes have a go at
me ever to fool around. I'd like you to note out that I'm still here,
alive, well and fit.

As for my teeth, they were kicked out years ago, so that's no big
deal. I'll even demonstrate the famous Glasgow Kiss for you!


The Highlander

Faodaidh nach ionann na beachdan anns
an post seo agus beachdan a' Ghàidheil.
The views expressed in this post are
not necessarily those of The Highlander.

Sam Sloan

Re: Robert Honywood (1525-1576) and Mary Atwater (1527-1620)

Legg inn av Sam Sloan » 23 okt 2006 06:19:22

It would not bother me one bit if it turns out that this genealogy is
false. I consider it more noble to be the son of a horse thief:

http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Index.asp?mid=13SAUh2
The best genealogical software you can getRelationship Chart

Samuel Howard Sloan is the 7th Cousin 5 times removed of 9th President
William Henry Harrison

Common Ancestor

* Robert Honywood
(1525-1576)
* Mary Atwater
(1527-1620)
Married Feb 1543
|
--------------------------------------------
| |
| |
William Henmarsh George Woodward
(About 1541- ) (About 1554-
)
* Katherine Honywood * Elizabeth
Honywood
(1546- ) (1561-1631)
Married About 1566
| |
| |
Richard Willis James Bacon
(Before 1607- ) (1595-1649)
* Jane Henmarsh * Martha Honeywood
Woodward
(About 1603-Between 1635) (1597-1670)
Married About 1624 Married 1619
| |
| |
* Thomas Willis Anthony Smith
(About 1625-1668) (1630-1662)
Mary Bentley * Martha Bacon
(About 1633-1684) (1634- )
Married About 1654 Married Before
1656
| |
| |
Robert Aldin Major Lewis Burwell,
II
(About 1649-1720) (1653-1711)
* Ellianor Willis * Abigail Smith
(1655-About 1737) (1656-1692)
Married About 1680 Married 1674
| |
| |
Martin Nalle Benjamin III
Harrison
(Circa 1675-Between 1728) (1673-1710)
* Mary Jane Aldin * Elizabeth
Burwell
(1681-1734) (1675-1734)
Married About 1702 Married 1698
| |
| |
* Martin Nalle, Jr * Colonel Benjamin
Harrison, IV
(About 1707-1788) (1693-1745)
Isabelle Anne Carter
(About 1710-1788) (1696-1743)
Married About 1730 Married About 1722
| |
| |
Job Popham * Gov. Benjamin
Harrison
(1709-1781) (1726-1791)
* Ann Nall Elizabeth Bassett
(1738-1825) (1730-1792)
Married 1758 Married 1748
| |
| |
* Humphrey Popham * 9th President William
Henry
Harrison
(1763- ) (1773-1841)
Elizabeth Betsey Hawkins
(1762-After 1826)
Married 2 Nov 1788
|
|
William M Graham
(1801-1882)
* Jane Popham
(1809-1893)
Married 13 Mar 1835
|
|
* Samuel Allison Graham
(1848-1931)
Elizabeth Grace Thomson
(1851-1932)
Married 3 Jun 1869
|
|
Wesley Peter Jacobson
(1877-1963)
* Mary Elizabeth Graham
(1879-1956)
Married 2 Jun 1909
|
|
Leroy Bayfield Sloan
(1910-1986)
* Dr. Helen Marjorie Jacobson
(1910- )
Married 27 Jun 1937
|
|
* Samuel Howard Sloan
(1944- )

Sam Sloan

Re: Royal Family of Europe

Legg inn av Sam Sloan » 23 okt 2006 06:24:30

On Sun, 4 Nov 2001 12:05:41 -0500, "A Tsar Is Born"
<enchante@herodotus.com> wrote:

"Gary Holtzman" <gholtzmn@bellatlantic.net> wrote in message
news:20011031224547.764$Po@newsreader.com...
sloan@ishipress.com (Sam Sloan) writes:

Just wondering: How does one die of grief when he is only 30 years
old?

Perhaps he killed himself.

Yes, I sometimes wonder whether this "died of grief" diagnosis which
appears in
medieval and early modern chronicles is a euphemism (or, perhaps, an
insightful
description) for suicide. Other times I wonder whether the medievals
simply
recognized a very real cause of death that modern medicine does not.

James had lived a very full life in a very bad climate, and had indulged
himself excessively in sexual behavior at a time when syphilis was brand
new, very fatal, very rampant. There were all sorts of other ailments.
Porphyria ran in his family.

It beats me, sometimes, how anyone lived to 30 before Louis Pasteur's day.
All sorts of things could and did kill everybody.

Jean Coeur de Lapin
atsarisborn@hotmail.com

Yes, syphilis was brand new. King James V of Scotland died in 1542. It
has been conclusively established that syphilis did not exist in
Europe until after Columbus returned from America in 1492. By digging
up old skeletons, it has been established that the American Indians
has syphilis prior to 1492 and Europeans did not. Syphilis swept
Europe as an epidemic killing millions in the early 1500s. I believe
that this is what brought on the Protestant Reformation and the
Puritan Ethic. Apparently, free love reigned in Europe until Columbus
and his men returned from Ameica.

The Europeans believed at that time that they had gotten syphilis from
America, and it has now been proven that they were right.

King James V of Scotland was married twice and had at least ten
different mistresses that we know of and probably some that we do not
know of. We know that he had at least ten mistresses because he had at
least one child by each of them. Obviously, he was a prime candidate
for syphilis.

Sam Sloan
http://www.ishipress.com

Frank R.A.J. Maloney

Re: Royal Family of Europe

Legg inn av Frank R.A.J. Maloney » 23 okt 2006 07:05:20

Sam Sloan wrote:
On Sun, 4 Nov 2001 12:05:41 -0500, "A Tsar Is Born"
enchante@herodotus.com> wrote:

"Gary Holtzman" <gholtzmn@bellatlantic.net> wrote in message
news:20011031224547.764$Po@newsreader.com...
sloan@ishipress.com (Sam Sloan) writes:

Just wondering: How does one die of grief when he is only 30 years
old?

Perhaps he killed himself.

Yes, I sometimes wonder whether this "died of grief" diagnosis
which appears in medieval and early modern chronicles is a
euphemism (or, perhaps, an insightful description) for suicide.
Other times I wonder whether the medievals simply recognized a very
real cause of death that modern medicine does not.

James had lived a very full life in a very bad climate, and had
indulged himself excessively in sexual behavior at a time when
syphilis was brand new, very fatal, very rampant. There were all
sorts of other ailments. Porphyria ran in his family.

It beats me, sometimes, how anyone lived to 30 before Louis
Pasteur's day. All sorts of things could and did kill everybody.

Jean Coeur de Lapin
atsarisborn@hotmail.com

Yes, syphilis was brand new. King James V of Scotland died in 1542. It
has been conclusively established that syphilis did not exist in
Europe until after Columbus returned from America in 1492. By digging
up old skeletons, it has been established that the American Indians
has syphilis prior to 1492 and Europeans did not. Syphilis swept
Europe as an epidemic killing millions in the early 1500s. I believe
that this is what brought on the Protestant Reformation and the
Puritan Ethic. Apparently, free love reigned in Europe until Columbus
and his men returned from Ameica.

The Europeans believed at that time that they had gotten syphilis from
America, and it has now been proven that they were right.

King James V of Scotland was married twice and had at least ten
different mistresses that we know of and probably some that we do not
know of. We know that he had at least ten mistresses because he had at
least one child by each of them. Obviously, he was a prime candidate
for syphilis.


It is by no means proven that syphilis came from the New World. It is a
mutated form of yaws, which had always been found in the Old World and
syphilis-like symptoms seem to be referred to in Hippocrates and Exodus.
There is some evidence of outbreaks in 13th and 14th century Europe.

To me what is particularly interesting is the the fast-acting, highly
virulent syphilis of the epidemic which started in Naples in 1494 mutated
into the form we know today by 1546, a mere half-century later.

Of course, the so-called Columbian Exchange theory still has many
proponents, but none of this is cut and dried yet.

--
Frank in Seattle
____

Frank Richard Aloysius Jude Maloney
"Millennium hand and shrimp."

A. Sharp

Re: The Last of the Neanderthal

Legg inn av A. Sharp » 23 okt 2006 08:05:13

James
For some time now I`ve been convinvced
that the Neanderthal peoples have interbred with the Cro Magnons
on a large scale. I further suggess that Grendel and his mother
of the Beowulf legend were in fact Neanderthal and Ibn Khaldun
who explored the Scandanavian area around 922 also encountered
some pure Neanderthals (See the book / film " The Thirteenth Warrior"
by Michael Crichton or better Ibn Khaldun`s own account.

Ann:
Does the current state of Neanderthal/Cro Magnon DNA comparison
support this theory? Have I missed some new discovery?

L.P.H.,

Ann

ElGaucho

Re: Most Brits Are Actually Spanish

Legg inn av ElGaucho » 23 okt 2006 15:37:43

"The Highlander" <micheil@shaw.ca> wrote in message

As for my teeth, they were kicked out years ago, so that's no big
deal. I'll even demonstrate the famous Glasgow Kiss for you!

D'ye think I don't know it? I ken it well, friend. Got it a few times,
gave it a few times. Remember I said I used to play soccer (and a bit of
Australian rules when I first came to Canada)... I know you guys very well.
But if you want a kiss, well, yes, of course, anytime, anyplace..Yesterday
if I could....not if I have to travel, of course. Let's see where I can
make you stick that long tongue of yours. Gaelic and all.

As I said, let's go, Mac. Loser buys the beer.

Oscar

ElGaucho

Re: Most Brits Are Actually Spanish

Legg inn av ElGaucho » 23 okt 2006 15:43:46

"The Highlander" <micheil@shaw.ca> wrote in message

As for my teeth, they were kicked out years ago, so that's no big
deal. I'll even demonstrate the famous Glasgow Kiss for you!

No need to demonstrate how hard-heided you are. I ken the salute verra well,
mo charaid. Got it a few times, gave a few times -remember I said I used to
play soccer..and Austr rules with fellows like you?? But if you want a
'kiss', sure thing!! Right now, later, tomorrow.. anytime, anyplace..no
travelling, of course. A kiss, and let's see where that long tongue of
yours ends up. Gaelic and all.

Let's go Mac, loser buys the beer.
Oscar

ElGaucho

Re: Most Brits Are Actually Spanish

Legg inn av ElGaucho » 23 okt 2006 15:54:53

"The Highlander" <micheil@shaw.ca> wrote in message

Not in our culture he doesn't, the winner calls an ambulance and
leaves before the cops arrive. And as for a bloody nose or a few teeth
missing - in Scotland men fight with knives - in fact the government
just passed a law there forbidding people to buy swords as that seems
to be the weapon of choice these days - I agree, it's a bit too much.

Well, that shows how backwards yous is. In Uruguay a fight is a nothing,
provided there's no dead people left. A knife fight is a more serious thing,
of course, but I would be ashamed of calling myself Uruguayan if I dinna
know how to fight with a knife as well. I also have traditions, mo charaid,
and I'm not one to shame them.

Broadswords couldn't be those in Scotland, could it? They were banned many
moons ago.

Oscar

Gjest

Re: Royal Family of Europe

Legg inn av Gjest » 23 okt 2006 16:03:02

In a message dated 10/22/2006 10:44:39 PM Pacific Standard Time,
sloan@ishipress.com writes:

The Europeans believed at that time that they had gotten syphilis from
America, and it has now been proven that they were right.


For one source on this see
_http://www.archaeology.org/9701/newsbriefs/syphilis.html_
(http://www.archaeology.org/9701/newsbri ... hilis.html)

Will Johnson

ElGaucho

Re: Most Brits Are Actually Spanish

Legg inn av ElGaucho » 23 okt 2006 16:03:07

"Mad Dog ||((*/_*))||" <r.anthonybaldone@hotmail.com> wrote in message

Hey Gecko you a linguist translate this from the most commonly spoken
language in Uruguay.

Per piacere, quanto
|| vecchie sono le vostre sorelle? Lasci qualcun'altro del vostro
|| villaggio uso il computer, non dimenticar di guardare le capre.

OK, doggie. Do you have a sister? Is she so skillful to give head as you
are? All Mad Dogs are faggots who practice pedophelia. All Faggot Dogs who
don't practice pedo, get their kicks getting butt-fucked by goats.

I think that's more or less a pretty good translations.

Call again....in 100 years.

Oscar

Doug McDonald

Re: Most Brits Are Actually Spanish

Legg inn av Doug McDonald » 23 okt 2006 16:17:05

D. Spencer Hines wrote:
Deeeeeelightful!

"A team from Oxford University has discovered that the Celts, Britain's
indigenous people, are descended from a tribe of Iberian fishermen who
crossed the Bay of Biscay 6,000 years ago. DNA analysis reveals they
have an almost identical genetic "fingerprint" to the inhabitants of
coastal regions of Spain, whose own ancestors migrated north between
4,000 and 5,000 BC.

The discovery, by Bryan Sykes, professor of human genetics at Oxford
University, will herald a change in scientific understanding of
Britishness.


You really should follow the Rootsweb mailing list
genealogy-dna.

They, the accumulated people on that list, are THE authority
on European DNA migration pattern interpretation, NOT Bryan
Sykes, nor any other academic. Especially not Bryan Sykes.

Sykes's interpretation is exceedingly controversial. In
particular, its writing predates the discovery of several
important new SNP markers inside R1b, especially the "S"
series.

Doug McDonald

Begoluna

Re: Most Brits Are Actually Spanish

Legg inn av Begoluna » 23 okt 2006 16:53:49

"ElGaucho" <gamo@vcn.bc.ca> wrote in news:ehikfj$131$1@luna.vcn.bc.ca:

Let's go Mac, loser buys the beer.

¿Pee cerveza? :-D

=.=.=.=.=
Begorda
=.=.=.=

ElGaucho

Re: Most Brits Are Actually Spanish

Legg inn av ElGaucho » 23 okt 2006 17:26:32

"Begoluna" <begolun@no.spam> wrote in message
news:j6WdnWQztcgQeKHYnZ2dnUVZ_rmdnZ2d@comcast.com...
"ElGaucho" <gamo@vcn.bc.ca> wrote in news:ehikfj$131$1@luna.vcn.bc.ca:

Let's go Mac, loser buys the beer.

¿Pee cerveza? :-D

Now, that is recycled beer that one leaves for others... There are some who
like that type of beer, you know? I think I said just that in one of my
famous poems...Don't remember now.

Y leí que caminastes ayer? OK. muy bien. Mirá que habemos varios que te
tenemos "cortita" y no mientas, que eso no vale, tamo?

Oscar

Begoluna

Re: Most Brits Are Actually Spanish

Legg inn av Begoluna » 23 okt 2006 17:35:23

"ElGaucho" <gamo@vcn.bc.ca> wrote in news:ehiqg9$2mb$1@luna.vcn.bc.ca:
"Begoluna" <begolun@no.spam> wrote in message
"ElGaucho" <gamo@vcn.bc.ca> wrote in

Let's go Mac, loser buys the beer.

¿Pee cerveza? :-D

Now, that is recycled beer that one leaves for others... There are

¿Es better to be "pissed off" o "pissed on"?? :-D

Y leí que caminastes ayer? OK. muy bien. Mirá que habemos varios que
te tenemos "cortita" y no mientas, que eso no vale, tamo?

I went to SuperTarget... all the way, round trip!! ¡Hurra!! No pain, no
gain--but my butt still looks muy grande. :-D

Seventy-five more pounds (no inglesas) to go!!

=.=.=.==
Begorda
=.=.=.=.

Gjest

Re: Most Brits Are Actually Spanish

Legg inn av Gjest » 23 okt 2006 21:27:40

Interesting. Is there a consesus at genealogy-dna on whether Stephen
Oppenheimer or Bryan Sykes gives the better overview of the genetic
history of the British Isles? I've just started on Oppenheimer's "The
Origins of the British".

Thanks,

Mark Bridge


Doug McDonald wrote:

You really should follow the Rootsweb mailing list
genealogy-dna.

They, the accumulated people on that list, are THE authority
on European DNA migration pattern interpretation, NOT Bryan
Sykes, nor any other academic. Especially not Bryan Sykes.

Sykes's interpretation is exceedingly controversial. In
particular, its writing predates the discovery of several
important new SNP markers inside R1b, especially the "S"
series.

Doug McDonald

Gurriato

Re: Most Brits Are Actually Spanish

Legg inn av Gurriato » 23 okt 2006 22:55:26

"The Highlander" <micheil@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:ajknj2lenhc28nnf0d0ol8ra7qr47f0hlf@4ax.com...
On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 06:04:16 -0700, "ElGaucho" <gamo@vcn.bc.ca> wrote:


"The Highlander" <micheil@shaw.ca> wrote in message

Uell, uell, uell! Tha Gàidhlig agad-sa! Agus a'fuirich ann an B.C.!

Ca bheil thu - ann an Bhancuibhear no ait' eile?

Vancouver, mo charaid. And don't tax me with Gaelic, I learned a bit
playing
soccer with fellows from the Isles, many moons ago.

"What a gowk!" is not the friendliest thing you could say about me.
You must be a big powerful fellow, full of piss and vinegar, to say
that to a Highlander who lives so close to you...

I know. Just wanted to know if it still carried the same punch :-)
Oscar

I don't care to be characterized as 'it' when querying my ability to
take out a Latino armed with a mere shiv.

Did you know this limerick?

An Uruguayan Gaucho named Bruno
Said sex is one thing I do know
Women are fine
And sheep are divine
But llamas are numero uno!

GURRIATO

Mad Dog anti-re-cycling

Re: Most Brits Are Actually Spanish

Legg inn av Mad Dog anti-re-cycling » 23 okt 2006 22:57:46

ElGaucho wrote:
|| "Mad Dog ||((*/_*))||" <r.anthonybaldone@hotmail.com> wrote in
|| message
||
||| Hey Gecko you a linguist translate this from the most commonly
||| spoken language in Uruguay.
||
||| Per piacere, quanto
||||| vecchie sono le vostre sorelle? Lasci qualcun'altro del vostro
||||| villaggio uso il computer, non dimenticar di guardare le capre.
||
|| OK, doggie. Do you have a sister? Is she so skillful to give head
|| as you are? All Mad Dogs are faggots who practice pedophelia. All
|| Faggot Dogs who don't practice pedo, get their kicks getting
|| butt-fucked by goats.
||
|| I think that's more or less a pretty good translations.
||
|| Call again....in 100 years.
||
|| Oscar

Talking of goats there is a lot of previous form regarding the shafting of
the goat in rural South America.

--
"A horse a horse my kingdom for a horse, I haven't had a winner in six
months".

MD

Gjest

Re: The Last of the Neanderthal

Legg inn av Gjest » 23 okt 2006 23:13:02

Dear Ann,
No. Just a thought. I am certainly no DNA expert, though our
group does have a couple of those, including co-list owner Todd Farmerie.Yet if
the Neanderthal`s are not intregrated into the genetic main stream by this
time, where are They ? I doubt that their genetic structure was so dissimilar
that They all died off. Now and again one sees persons of whatever race with
brow ridges such as the Neanderthals had.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine
USA

\"kls\"

Re: Most Brits Are Actually Spanish

Legg inn av \"kls\" » 23 okt 2006 23:18:58


The Highlander

Re: Most Brits Are Actually Spanish

Legg inn av The Highlander » 23 okt 2006 23:23:45

On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 07:54:53 -0700, "ElGaucho" <gamo@vcn.bc.ca> wrote:

"The Highlander" <micheil@shaw.ca> wrote in message

Not in our culture he doesn't, the winner calls an ambulance and
leaves before the cops arrive. And as for a bloody nose or a few teeth
missing - in Scotland men fight with knives - in fact the government
just passed a law there forbidding people to buy swords as that seems
to be the weapon of choice these days - I agree, it's a bit too much.

Well, that shows how backwards yous is. In Uruguay a fight is a nothing,
provided there's no dead people left. A knife fight is a more serious thing,
of course, but I would be ashamed of calling myself Uruguayan if I dinna
know how to fight with a knife as well. I also have traditions, mo charaid,
and I'm not one to shame them.

I think it's unlikely that you know as much about knives as you think
you do. As it happens, edged weapons were my speciality in my
soldiering days. I have a scar on my arm to remind me never to be
overly confident again. Why do you think Scots talk all the time about
slitting throats? To amuse ourselves? Have you never heard of the
razor gangs?

Broadswords couldn't be those in Scotland, could it? They were banned many
moons ago.

Wrong. Back in 1746 they were, but that law was repealed forty years
later. We had a houseful of them on the walls.
Oscar





The Highlander

Faodaidh nach ionann na beachdan anns
an post seo agus beachdan a' Ghàidheil.
The views expressed in this post are
not necessarily those of The Highlander.

ElGaucho

Re: Most Brits Are Actually Spanish

Legg inn av ElGaucho » 23 okt 2006 23:47:16

"The Highlander" <micheil@shaw.ca> wrote in message

Well, that shows how backwards yous is. In Uruguay a fight is a nothing,
provided there's no dead people left. A knife fight is a more serious
thing,
of course, but I would be ashamed of calling myself Uruguayan if I dinna
know how to fight with a knife as well. I also have traditions, mo
charaid,
and I'm not one to shame them.

I think it's unlikely that you know as much about knives as you think
you do. As it happens, edged weapons were my speciality in my

No bullshit now. You're wrong there, I think we come from traditions that
moulded a man in ways we don't see much of, nowadays. What Gurriato told
you about the use of that big knife, the 'facón' where I was born, that was
right. We used to learn as children, with sticks shaped as knives,
somewhere around the age of 11 or 12 I had an uncle who made me learn in a
serious way many of the moves, as if he were teaching me how to box. That
was a serious business, then, and no crying for any little cuts. And the
trainning went on for years. I don't know if this type of custom was a
family business where you come from, but in mine, it was.

Weird as it sounds, I am sort of sorry I didn't continue that tradition with
my sons here in Canada. One doesn't turn into a killer by knowing certain
things, but there's a strange confidence one gains as a man, that goes on
throughout life. They had to content themselves with karate, tae kwan
do....and hockey. Not the same.

Broadswords couldn't be those in Scotland, could it? They were banned
many
moons ago.

Wrong. Back in 1746 they were, but that law was repealed forty years
later. We had a houseful of them on the walls.

Good swords those. I had one in my hands a few years back, in Toronto.
Good balance, they feel 'good' if they are well made.

Gjest

Re: Eltonhead's of Prescot

Legg inn av Gjest » 24 okt 2006 01:46:02

Thanks Doug for responding to this post with some references. While mousing
around looking for something else, I came upon the extracted baptisms in the
IGI of the children of Richard Eltonhead and Ann Sutton

See
http://www.familysearch.org
Region British Isles
Batch P005981
Parish Records of Prescot, St Mary, Lancashire

Which gives us
Katherine 5 Jul 1609
Edward 2 Jul 1610
Richard 30 Aug 1611
John 23 Sep 1612
Elizabeth 30 Sep 1613
Ricus 6 Mar 1617
Barbara 20 Apr 1618
James 16 Sep 1619
Jane 23 Mar 1622
Agatha 10 Feb 1623
Henry 18 Mar 1624


Will Johnson

Earle Horton

Re: Most Brits Are Actually Spanish

Legg inn av Earle Horton » 24 okt 2006 03:40:00

"Gurriato" <patanegra@netnitco.net> wrote in message
news:q9adnU1gkoWwp6DYnZ2dnUVZ_oOdnZ2d@netnitco.net...
....
Did you know this limerick?

An Uruguayan Gaucho named Bruno
Said sex is one thing I do know
Women are fine
And sheep are divine
But llamas are numero uno!

Te equivocas técnicamente

You are technically wrong here

Spanish and English links given
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Llama
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Llama
La llama (Lama glama) es un gran camélido originario de los Andes...

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uruguay
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uruguay
La República Oriental del Uruguay es un estado de América del Sur...

Uruguay está muy lejos de la Cordillera de los Andes, con poquísimos llamas
residentes. Si a los uruguayos les gustan las llamas, será un amor por la
distancia, como el amor sin esperanza el que tú sientes por las ganseritas
de alemania. Pero tú, por ser chapetón por esas partes, no entenderás eso.

Uruguay is very far from the Andes, and has very few resident llamas. This
love that Uruguayans are supposed to feel for llamas would be of the
theoretical kind, much like the love that Gurriato (which means cob knobbler
in Spanish by the way) would feel for German goose maidens. But he would
not understand that because he is a chapetón.

Saludos,

Earle






--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Merilyn Pedrick

Re: The Last of the Neanderthal

Legg inn av Merilyn Pedrick » 24 okt 2006 04:04:02

A bit OT, but I'll never forget the time as a child that I went to the City
Baths in Adelaide and saw an absolute Neanderthal throwback. He was covered
in hair, had the heavy brow ridge and he sloped along with his hands nearly
dragging on the ground! I remember that the friends I was with and I
discussed it at length and were convinced that he was a throwback. Poor
bloke, I bet he was teased unmercifully.
Merilyn Pedrick

-------Original Message-------

From: Jwc1870@aol.com
Date: 10/24/06 06:51:10
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: The Last of the Neanderthal

Dear Ann,
No. Just a thought. I am certainly no DNA expert, though our
group does have a couple of those, including co-list owner Todd Farmerie.Yet
if
the Neanderthal`s are not intregrated into the genetic main stream by this
time, where are They ? I doubt that their genetic structure was so
dissimilar
that They all died off. Now and again one sees persons of whatever race with
brow ridges such as the Neanderthals had.
Sincerely,
James W
Cummings
Dixmont, Maine
USA

Gjest

Re: Rainsford

Legg inn av Gjest » 24 okt 2006 05:16:02

In a message dated 10/22/06 5:44:45 AM Pacific Daylight Time, patol70@aol.com
writes:

<< He was born in Staverton in 1605 and went on to become Lord
Chief Justice to Charles II , albeit briefly . Northampton Record
Office was helpful in producing a tree back to John Rainsford of
Rainsford Hall , Lancs . I have an inherited engraving of this rather
grim-looking chap but , frustratingly , I haven't been able to
establish a downward link with my late husband , John RAINSFORD WALROND
OLIVER . Working up the tree , I have Charles RAINSFORD , possibly born
Lewes,Sussex 27/06/1765 . he died in London on 03/11/1843.

Charles married twice : [1] Letitia HUNT on 10/05/1789 in East >>

Unfortunately you have more than one missing link here.
From a man born in 1605, to a man married firstly in 1789 I'd say you're
looking at, at the very least five generations.

Far too many for a quick answer.
Will

Gjest

Re: Bigamy royal style?

Legg inn av Gjest » 24 okt 2006 05:17:02

In a message dated 10/21/06 5:09:48 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au writes:

<< In ES Volume II Tafel 126
Wladislaw II, King of Hungary and Bohemia.
He married (1) 20 August 1476 Barbara von Brandenburg------------divorced
her 7 April 1500
He married (2) secretly 4 October 1490 Beatrice of Naples----------divorced
her 7 April 1500
He married (3) 6 October 1502 Anne de Foix >>


Leo Heraldry of the Royal Families of Europe, Table 87, Jiri Louda and
Michael Maclagan, Clarkson N Potter, New York 1981

addresses this in saying that Wladislaw was married twice, first to Beatrix
of Naples and secondly to Anne of Foix.

It labels these marriages (1) and (2) indicating that these were the first or
only two.

Will

Gjest

Re: Eylesford and Boulewas/Buildwas

Legg inn av Gjest » 24 okt 2006 05:18:01

The finding that Isabel, wife of John Eylesford was already so 16 Mar 1369 is
chronologically important for her potential placement as a daughter of Thomas
Barre (senior) who d 18 Dec 1419.

In particular, at the time of her mention in 1369, either, she has to be a
child bride, *or* we have to accept the possibilty that Thomas Barre Sr lived
quite probably into his eighties or more.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Reliability of IPMs (Eylesford)

Legg inn av Gjest » 24 okt 2006 05:20:02

In a message dated 10/21/06 4:14:36 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
royaldescent@hotmail.com writes:

<< This more than likely is the key to Isabel's parentage: she was a Barre
of Barr's Court, Herefordshire, the daughter (or possibly sister) of
Thomas Barre 'Senior' (d. 1421), >>

Starting from this note: "Roskell's HOP seems to say that Sir Thomas "senior"
died 18 Dec 1419, not 1420 - before his son, not after. The IPM for Sir
Thomas "senior" was 24 Sept 1420 and established that his son Sir Thomas "junior"
had died between July and September of that year."

which I evidently clipped from this list in the time before I was keeping
better notes and so cannot say who said it.

I would say this Isabel if she is a Barre would be a daughter of Sir Thomas
Barre who (per above) died 18 Dec 1419

And then she would have a great-niece named for her, to wit Isabel (Barre)
Stafford who married Humphrey Stafford the Earl of Devon and secondly Thomas
Bourchier.

Will Johnson

Leo van de Pas

Re: Bigamy royal style?

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 24 okt 2006 05:40:03

Dear Will,

I have Louda and Maclagan's book, but I see that more as a heraldic work.
The interesting part is that ES Freytag von Loringhoven 1975 Volume 1 Tafel
61 has Barbara only with her first husband, Heinrich XI von Glogau who died
22 February 1476.

ES Schwennicke Volume 1.1 Tafel 129 gives her two husbands, Wladislaw II as
the second. What I find puzzling is that the first husband died 22 February
1476 and already 20 August 1476 she marries her second husband. Here is
given she divorced Wladislaw 7 April 1500 in Rome.

Something must be wrong. One thing we should not forget is that Wladislaw II
born born in 1456, became king of Bohemia in 1471 and so must have been in a
hurry to get a son and heir, would he wait until 1490 before he married the
first time?
Leo



----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au>; <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 12:56 PM
Subject: Re: Bigamy royal style?


In a message dated 10/21/06 5:09:48 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au writes:

In ES Volume II Tafel 126
Wladislaw II, King of Hungary and Bohemia.
He married (1) 20 August 1476 Barbara von Brandenburg------------divorced
her 7 April 1500
He married (2) secretly 4 October 1490 Beatrice of
Naples----------divorced
her 7 April 1500
He married (3) 6 October 1502 Anne de Foix


Leo Heraldry of the Royal Families of Europe, Table 87, Jiri Louda and
Michael Maclagan, Clarkson N Potter, New York 1981

addresses this in saying that Wladislaw was married twice, first to
Beatrix
of Naples and secondly to Anne of Foix.

It labels these marriages (1) and (2) indicating that these were the first
or
only two.

Will

Gurriato

Re: Most Brits Are Actually Spanish

Legg inn av Gurriato » 24 okt 2006 06:14:11

"Earle Horton" <anglocapitalista@usa.com> wrote in message
news:453d7016$0$19740$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...

Uruguay is very far from the Andes, and has very few resident llamas.

There are llamas, alpacas, vicuñas, guanacos and all kinds of related
beasts. I can't tell the difference, but el Gauchito likes them all. They
all have beautiful tender eyes and curly eyelashes. They kick and they spit
on you, like women do. Perhaps this is the reason for Gauchito's love of
them. He is a masochist.

This love that Uruguayans are supposed to feel for llamas would be of the
theoretical kind, much like the love that Gurriato (which means cob
knobbler
in Spanish by the way) would feel for German goose maidens.

You're insulting me. A gurriato is a sparrow. What the fillern is a cob
knobbler?


In Indianajuato a cob knobbler is a woman (or man, whatever submerges your
submarine) who gives awful blow jobs. The name originates from Cobzeus, the
Norwegian goddess of corn shucking, who once treated Hermes' penis as a cob
of corn. I think YOU are a cob knobbler

Saludos
GURRIATO

Gjest

Re:Eylesford and Boulewas/Buildwas: also Sir Thomas BARRE

Legg inn av Gjest » 24 okt 2006 09:55:04

WJhonson remarked on "the possibility that Thomas Barre Sr
lived quite probably into his eighties or more".

The following extract from the patent rolls, dated more than 15 years
before Sir Thomas' death, confirms this:-

CPR 3rd March 1404 at Westminster. Exemption for life of Thomas
de la Barre, `chivaler', on account of his great age, from
being charged with being sheriff, escheator, collector of
tenth or fifteenth [etc], and from all labours in person,
provided that he find a competent person to serve the king
in his place and to ride with the king when required.

CPR 5th September 1356 records a Thomas de la Barre as sheriff
of Hereford (interestingly being concerned with the recovery of some
cattle of Sir John FitzHugh de Eylesford, `chivaler'). If this is the same
man, and if we assume he must have been at least 25 years of age to
become a sheriff, then he would have been well over 70 in 1404, and in
his late 80s when he died- doubtless much fortified by the 3 tuns of
wine per annum for life with which he had been rewarded as king's
knight to Richard II.

CPR 7th August 1382 names Sir Thomas' wife as Elizabeth, late the
wife of Edward Hendale [sic, but I perhaps it should read "Kendale".

The Hampshire Record Office preserves a file 1M53 (Coventry of Burgate),
which identifies Sir Thomas' mother as a sister of Sir Richard Pembrugge
(d.1375), and shows that Sir Thomas became entitled to a share of the
manor of Burgate and the hundred of Fordingbridge as coheir of Sir Richard's
son Henry.
MM

Adam Whyte-Settlar

Re: Most Brits Are Actually Spanish

Legg inn av Adam Whyte-Settlar » 24 okt 2006 10:57:55

"ElGaucho" <gamo@vcn.bc.ca> wrote in message
news:ehjgq5$9nk$1@luna.vcn.bc.ca...

Weird as it sounds, I am sort of sorry I didn't continue that tradition
with my sons here in Canada. One doesn't turn into a killer by knowing
certain things, but there's a strange confidence one gains as a man, that
goes on throughout life. They had to content themselves with karate, tae
kwan do....and hockey.

In Hampshire we kids got issued running shoes.

The Highlander

Re: Most Brits Are Actually Spanish

Legg inn av The Highlander » 24 okt 2006 14:44:21

On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 15:47:16 -0700, "ElGaucho" <gamo@vcn.bc.ca> wrote:

"The Highlander" <micheil@shaw.ca> wrote in message

Well, that shows how backwards yous is. In Uruguay a fight is a nothing,
provided there's no dead people left. A knife fight is a more serious
thing,
of course, but I would be ashamed of calling myself Uruguayan if I dinna
know how to fight with a knife as well. I also have traditions, mo
charaid,
and I'm not one to shame them.

I think it's unlikely that you know as much about knives as you think
you do. As it happens, edged weapons were my speciality in my

No bullshit now. You're wrong there, I think we come from traditions that
moulded a man in ways we don't see much of, nowadays. What Gurriato told
you about the use of that big knife, the 'facón' where I was born, that was
right. We used to learn as children, with sticks shaped as knives,
somewhere around the age of 11 or 12 I had an uncle who made me learn in a
serious way many of the moves, as if he were teaching me how to box. That
was a serious business, then, and no crying for any little cuts. And the
trainning went on for years. I don't know if this type of custom was a
family business where you come from, but in mine, it was.

I have some knowledge of those matters, which I really don't care to
discuss. Suffice it to say that I taught my children everything I knew
and it paid off in spades for my daughters when they ran into trouble.

My youngest daughter is a policewoman and came out top in firearms
skills, handling attacks on herself, etc. and on her first week on the
street, took on four drunks wrecking a bar and had them on their faces
on the sidewalk, handcuffed, before her back-up unit arrived, for
which she got a commendation from the Chief Constable. As she is only
5'5" tall; a slim blonde who looks about 20 years old, it must have
been a horrific surprise for the four drunks, who apparently thought
they were going to beat up an easy victim.

The day she started work, four RCMP were murdered in Alberta by a
sniper and she become annoyed with me for calling her every day to
make sure she was okay. She was a bit startled by my pieces of advice;
"If in doubt, fill the bastard full of lead; we can always hire a good
lawyer"; "Don't make me come to your funeral" and "Better to be tried
by twelve than carried by six". The ever-practical Dad.

Teaching one's children such matters can be embarrassing. My older
daughter was groped in a bar by a US Marine and when she shoved him
away, complaing loudly, he punched her in the face and broke her nose.
She told him, "Outside, asshole!" and he swaggered out, sneering at
the crowd, and was promptly beaten senseless by my daughter and taken
away in an ambulance, accompanied by cheers from the watching crowd.

His trial; complete with American Military police wearing white MP
helmets who arrived with him handcuffed to both of them, and started
sniggering when they heard he had been beaten up by a woman; was a
farce.

The judge loved my daughter; the prosecutor did his best to gloss over
what had clearly been a professional beating, and my public outing
came when she was asked what she did after she had knocked the Marine
on his back and she said, pointing at me, "I did what my Dad taught
me; I made sure he didn't get up again by kicking him in the head
until he stopped moving!"

The courtroom turned to look at the Dad, this monster who advocated
extreme violence, while I slid down lower in my chair and the judge
tried to pretend that he hadn't heard her comments. Half a dozen cops
took a long, hard look at me, apparently memorizing my face. So much
for "Honesty is the best policy".

I barely got to see her afterwards, as a riot of policemen was trying
to make dates with her - they seem to like women who can beat men
around. The Marine was sentenced to a prison term here in Canada, with
another following when he was returned to the States where the US
Marines jailed him yet again.

Weird as it sounds, I am sort of sorry I didn't continue that tradition with
my sons here in Canada. One doesn't turn into a killer by knowing certain
things, but there's a strange confidence one gains as a man, that goes on
throughout life. They had to content themselves with karate, tae kwan
do....and hockey. Not the same.



Broadswords couldn't be those in Scotland, could it? They were banned
many
moons ago.

Wrong. Back in 1746 they were, but that law was repealed forty years
later. We had a houseful of them on the walls.

Good swords those. I had one in my hands a few years back, in Toronto.
Good balance, they feel 'good' if they are well made.

That's why they can be used like a rapier, as the basket hilt offsets
the weight of the blade. Unusually in the old days in sabre-style use,
not only did the Highlanders strike with the blade, using a sliding
technique to amputate sword arms or fracture a skull. but they also
used the claymore (lit. sword big) to stab with, a technique unknown
to sabre fighters. Several commentators at Culloden spoke of the
blades flashing above the smoke of battle, then vanishing downwards.
The only point at which the user was vulnerable was when he raised his
sword to create the momentum for striking downwards and exposed the
right hand side of his chest and underarm.

The Duke of Cumberland, the English general, who was a perceptive man,
had noted this weak point and ordered each English soldier not to
defend himself against a Highlander attacking him, but to stab the
Highlander attacking his comrade to his right in the exposed area with
the newly issued bayonet, being used by British troops for the first
time, while, hopefully, his comrade was doing the same for him by
stabbing his attacker.

It has to be acknowledged that the English soldiers showed a lot of
courage in obeying this order, as in general they were terrified of
the Highlanders and the dreadful wounds they inflicted on their
enemies. It was this, in part, that stopped the Highland charge,
although some wiped out the first row of Redcoats, broke through the
second row and even attacked the third row before being bayonetted.

I also wanted to mention that Spain is the only country I have ever
visited which has statues (outside the Plaza de Toros) to Sir
Alexander Fleming, the Scottish discoverer of penicillin, which has
saved the lives of many toreadors who were gored by bulls. I can't
remember which city it was - Ronda? - where there was also a Calle
Doctor Fleming - Doctor Fleming Street. It's nice that someone
remembers him for one of medicine's most important discoveries.

The Highlander

Faodaidh nach ionann na beachdan anns
an post seo agus beachdan a' Ghàidheil.
The views expressed in this post are
not necessarily those of The Highlander.

ElGaucho

Re: Most Brits Are Actually Spanish

Legg inn av ElGaucho » 24 okt 2006 14:46:40

"Adam Whyte-Settlar" <grawillers@westnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:453de3b1@quokka.wn.com.au...
"ElGaucho" <gamo@vcn.bc.ca> wrote in message
news:ehjgq5$9nk$1@luna.vcn.bc.ca...

Weird as it sounds, I am sort of sorry I didn't continue that tradition
with my sons here in Canada. One doesn't turn into a killer by knowing
certain things, but there's a strange confidence one gains as a man, that
goes on throughout life. They had to content themselves with karate, tae
kwan do....and hockey.

In Hampshire we kids got issued running shoes.

Oh, they were invented then?? :-)

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