Blount-Ayala

Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper

Svar
John Higgins

Re: Fw: Daughters of Sir Robert MARKHAM

Legg inn av John Higgins » 26 sep 2006 23:00:02

This is an interesting note from DNB on the Markhams. The two Markham
sources I noted both say that it was Sir Robert the nephew of Sir John the
Chief Justice who was made KB at the coronation of Edward IV. But upon
further review, it appears that they both confused the careers of Sir Robert
the younger (the nephew) and Sir Robert the elder (the brother).

And I must have been seriously distracted last night when I wrote that Sir
Robert the younger died in 1476 - it's apparernt that he died 1 Sept 1495
[although one source says 1496]. I don't know where I came up with the 1476
date - I don't know that it can necessarily be applied to his father Sir
Robert the elder (brother of the CJ).

I still am uncertain as the proper parentage of the daughters of one or the
other of these Sir Roberts - but I don't think I'll muddy the waters with
any further conjectures on that matter....sorry for further confusing this
question.

----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 12:07 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: Daughters of Sir Robert MARKHAM


In a message dated 9/25/06 10:39:46 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
jthiggins@sbcglobal.net writes:

Despite the fact that both of these works indicate that all the
daughters
were by the elder Sir Robert and Elizabeth Burdon, I'm inclined, for
chronological reasons, to believe that the visitation pedigrees are right
in this case
in assigning the daughters to the younger Sir Robert and Joan Daubeney.
This
is because the elder Sir Robert probably died in the 1430s (or possibly
even
earlier), while the spouses of the three daughters died 60 to 95 years
later.

John, thank you for your excellent post.
In the [old] DNB article on John Markham, Chief Justice (d 1479) it states
that he and his elder brother Robert (the one you think died in the 1430s)
were
made KB at the coronation of Edward IV. That would have been 1461 I
believe.

Will

Peter Stewart

Re: Otgiva of Luxemburg

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 26 sep 2006 23:19:51

"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
news:Kr5Sg.36328$rP1.1849@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
"Birds" <h.vogels6@chello.nl> wrote in message
news:1159252206.036843.81570@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
That would explain why Hlawitschka does not mention this later attested
custom. As a historical en genealogical researcher he is quite well
informed so he can't be taken lightly.

Thus Hlawitschka sees in the Heinrich of 964 a person of age, not a
baby or todler.

But then again a marriage around 949/950 for Siegfried would seem quite
early with regards to the children born from this union and their
marriages.

I agree, Hans - the best point of reference for this generation may be the
marriage ca May/June 1000 of Kunigunde to Heinrich of Bavaria, soon to be
German king & later emperor, who was born in May 973. She is not likely to
have been still unmarried at that time unless she was somewhat younger
than her husband's 27 years. Say she was born ca 980, this makes it
scarcely plausible that she had a full sibling born more than about 20
years earlier.

The consequence would be that Heinric was only an infant or young child on
17 September 964 when he first occurs, and his brothers who do not appear
at the same time would presumably have been born afterwards. On the other
hand if Heinric was 14 in 964 his sister Kunigunde would apparently have
been born when he was ca 30 years old, and for all we know she may not
have been the youngest sibling. If the two churchmen amongst them became
bishops at the age of eligibility, Thierry of Metz would have been born by
965/6 and Adalbero of Trier by 968.

My arithmetic gets worse by the day - this should read "Thierry of Metz
would have been born by 975/6 and Adalbero of Trier by 978".

Peter Stewart

Gjest

re: Thomas Wombwell / Catherine Ingleby

Legg inn av Gjest » 27 sep 2006 00:51:02

Recently Brad Verity mentioned that pedigrees of Ingleby are deficient in
placing Catherine (Ingleby) Wombwell.

While perusing another line, I chanced to come upon tudorplace.com.ar stating
that this Catherine was executor to her mother's will of 12 oct 1478

If true, this could cement the relationship of Catherine (Ingleby) Wombwell
to Jane (Stapleton) Ingleby, which is the relationship they state.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Otgiva of Luxemburg

Legg inn av Gjest » 27 sep 2006 00:52:02

Dear Stewart and others,
Edgiva / Otgiva, Queen of Charles III
of France was the niece of Count Baldwin II of Flanders wife Aethelthyrth,
who was the daughter of King Alfred and so 1st cousin of Count Arnulf I of
Flanders
Hedwig if Edgiva`s daughter was 2nd cousin to Count Baldwin III
Otgiva herself was 3rd cousin to Count Arnulf II and 3rd once removed to her
husband Count Baldwin IV.
Apparently, according to eu.webgenealogy Otto I `s
1st wife Edith, sister of Edgiva, Queen of France died without issue ? In the
past several genealogical tables and articles in Encyclopedias and history
books indicated that Liudolf, Otto I`s oldest son who rebelled againest him was
Empress Edith`s son. Additionally, Hugues, Duke of the Franks` wife Edhilda,
also a sister and daughter of King Edward the Elder is indicated to have died
without surviving children.
Sincerely,
James W
Cummings
Dixmont,
Maine USA

Gjest

Re: Whipple family

Legg inn av Gjest » 27 sep 2006 01:01:02

In a message dated 9/26/06 2:06:10 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
familyhistorian@kc.rr.com writes:

<< I have found a Matthew Whipple married to an Anna Hawkins but all the
dates
from here are about 100 years off. Where did I mess up? >>

Be aware that many dates submitted to the IGI as "records submitted by a
patron" for instance can be very widely off-the-mark. Many times, complete
guesses generated by applying 20 or 30 years per generation with no documentation.

So the source of the dates is very important to note, in your database, and
to us as well.

Will

hippo

Re: David Cameron's Wife -- Royal Genealogy?

Legg inn av hippo » 27 sep 2006 01:28:25

"a.spencer3" wrote in message

"hippo" wrote in message

"William Black" wrote in message

He's descended from Elizabeth FitzClarance, the acknowledged bastard
of
William IV, and his mistress Dorothy Jordan.

I'm descended from Edward III through John of Gaunt and Henry Cardinal
Beaufort. Does that make me a despised aristocrat? How far back does the
onus of aristocracy extend? -the Troll


Oh Gawd, the Beauforts were our local Lords of the Manor in 1437! You was
probably conceived in my front garden!
Look, just 'cos my Greats clobbered your Greats in Glamorgan way back,
there's no need to get all (or more) bitter & twisted.
You might like the following - a new one for me accidently Googled up
recently.
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/GLA/Lewis1833Gla.html

Trust me, my people were far removed from the majesty of the Beauforts. My
relation is through the bastard daughter of the good Cardinal, himself a
bastard, who was married off to a provincial knight as far away from the
seats of power as possible. Glamorganshire in those days was not at the
forefront of fashion. My family was native Welsh in the paternal line,
although gentrified early on. -the Troll

Gjest

Re: Cony of Bassingbourne

Legg inn av Gjest » 27 sep 2006 03:10:03

In a message dated 9/26/06 2:58:06 PM Pacific Daylight Time, tim@powys.org
writes:

<< > In a message dated 9/26/06 2:26:27 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
roconnor@es.co.nz writes:

Alumuni Oxonsenses records that this Thomas was in fact a fellow of All
Souls College in 1621. Also that he was aged 15 when he matriculated on
4
May 1621. He was thus born circa 1605/6.

He was made a fellow at age 15 ?
That statement seems particularly suspicious to me.

Quite. But I have just had a (virtual) thumb through Alumni Oxoniensis
for 1500 to 1714 and simply cannot find the chap. There is a Thomas
Coney but he was 180 years later. Anyone got any suggestions on what
the name might have been? >>


Sorry Tim, this thread went way off track ;)
The person in question is Thomas HARRINGTON
son of William Harrington of Witham-on-the-Hill "living in 1625" by his wife
Dorothy Chichley, dau of Thomas Chicheley, Esq of Wimpole, Cambridge (by his
wife said to be Anne Bourne)

Further on this family, the IGI gives a list of children which approximate
dates, so presumably taken from some kind of document that didn't give them
ages: Thomas, William, John, Henry, Anne, Hannah, Frances, and Mary

The approximate birthyears for these children go from 1600 to 1612 in the IGI

So far I haven't found anything to back this up or comment on it.

Will Johnson

Peter Stewart

Re: Otgiva of Luxemburg

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 27 sep 2006 04:36:48

<Jwc1870@aol.com> wrote in message news:3b8.966e577.324b065f@aol.com...
Dear Stewart and others,
Edgiva / Otgiva, Queen of Charles
III
of France was the niece of Count Baldwin II of Flanders wife
Aethelthyrth,
who was the daughter of King Alfred and so 1st cousin of Count Arnulf I of
Flanders
Hedwig if Edgiva`s daughter was 2nd cousin to Count Baldwin III
Otgiva herself was 3rd cousin to Count Arnulf II and 3rd once removed to
her
husband Count Baldwin IV.

Elsewhere in this thread the proposal that Hedwig might have been the
daughter of Louis IV and therefore granddaughter of Queen Eadgifu is
discussed: if a possibility at all this is a very remote one indeed - but
there is no possibility that Hedwig could have been a daughter of Charless
III and Eadgfu, whose only child was born in 920/1. Hedwig's children, as
also discussed elsewhere in the thread, were born ca 960-ca980. Mysterious
as he may be in some respects, Hedwig's husband could have been
brother-in-law to King Louis IV, and nor for that matter would the name
Hedwig have occurred out of the blue in the Caroloingian family.

Apparently, according to eu.webgenealogy Otto I `s
1st wife Edith, sister of Edgiva, Queen of France died without issue ?
In the
past several genealogical tables and articles in Encyclopedias and history
books indicated that Liudolf, Otto I`s oldest son who rebelled againest
him was
Empress Edith`s son. Additionally, Hugues, Duke of the Franks` wife
Edhilda,
also a sister and daughter of King Edward the Elder is indicated to have
died
without surviving children.

Otto and Edith married in September 929 and were parents of at least two,
perhaps three, children: Liudolf as noted above and his sister Liutgard
(wife of Konrad the Red, duke of Lotharingia). There may also have been a
daughter named Hedwig who died on a 16 August according to the necrology of
Echternach ("Hatawich, filia regis Ottonis"). Winfrid Glocker suggested that
the king's name may be an error for "Heinrici", so that the notice refers to
Otto the Great's sister Hedwig who was the wife of Hugo Magnus, duke of the
Franks. However, this lady's death is recorded on 9 January in the
necrologies of Saint-German des Prés and Saint-Denis, and it is unlikely
that the wife of the Frankish duke would be noted only as daughter of a
foreign king - especially the wrong one - instead of being identified by her
own title and/or linked to her husband. An otherwise unknown daughter of
Otto is more plausible, perhaps one who died young. No such daughter is
mentioned in the life of his second wife Adelais of Burgundy, that is
comprehensive on her descendants, so that a child of his first marriage
would seem to be indicated.

Eadhild, the second wife of Duke Hugo Magnus, died childless about ten years
after their marriage.

Peter Stewart

Peter Stewart

Re: Otgiva of Luxemburg

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 27 sep 2006 04:38:42

"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
news:klmSg.37016$rP1.26830@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
Jwc1870@aol.com> wrote in message news:3b8.966e577.324b065f@aol.com...
Dear Stewart and others,
Edgiva / Otgiva, Queen of Charles
III
of France was the niece of Count Baldwin II of Flanders wife
Aethelthyrth,
who was the daughter of King Alfred and so 1st cousin of Count Arnulf I
of
Flanders
Hedwig if Edgiva`s daughter was 2nd cousin to Count Baldwin III
Otgiva herself was 3rd cousin to Count Arnulf II and 3rd once removed to
her
husband Count Baldwin IV.

Elsewhere in this thread the proposal that Hedwig might have been the
daughter of Louis IV and therefore granddaughter of Queen Eadgifu is
discussed: if a possibility at all this is a very remote one indeed - but
there is no possibility that Hedwig could have been a daughter of Charless
III and Eadgfu, whose only child was born in 920/1. Hedwig's children, as
also discussed elsewhere in the thread, were born ca 960-ca980. Mysterious
as he may be in some respects, Hedwig's husband could have been
brother-in-law to King Louis IV, and nor for that matter would the name
Hedwig have occurred out of the blue in the Caroloingian family.

Another lapse - this should read "Mysterious as he may be in some respects,
Hedwig's husband could not have been brother-in-law to King Louis IV".

Peter Stewart

Brad Verity

Re: Mauleverer - additions to RPA/PA3 and MCA?

Legg inn av Brad Verity » 27 sep 2006 05:14:42

Dear John, Matthew & Will,

Thank you for all the dates, and the sources. I had forgotten about
the Tudor Place website. Using just the dates provided by that, the
chronology of the possible line becomes clearer.

Edward III
1) Joan Beaufort, Countess of Westmorland (c.1379-1440), had
2) Elizabeth Ferrers, Lady Greystoke (1393-1434), who had
3) Anne Greystoke (d. 1477) m. Sir Ralph Bigod of Settrington
(1410-1461), and had
4) Agnes Bigod (b. 1442; living 1510; m. 2nd, Marmaduke Vavasour) m. 1)
Thomas
Stillington of Acaster Selby, Yorkshire (d. by 1500), and had
5) Katherine Stillington (d. 1500) m. Sir William Ingleby of Ripley
(1455-1501)
6) Agnes Ingleby (d. 1534) m. Richard Goldesborough of Goldesborough,
and had
7) Thomas Goldesborough m. Jane Boynton, and had
8) Eleanor Goldesborough m. Richard Aldburgh, and had
9) Eleanor Aldburgh (1553-1642) m. William Mauleverer of Wothersome

Tudor Place gives birthdates of 1472 and 1477 for two of the other
children of Katherine Stillington and Sir William Ingleby. This would
put Sir William at age 17 when the elder of these was born, and even
assuming the 1472 date is just an estimate on the part of Tudor Place,
other evidence seems to point to the three surviving children of the
couple being born during the 1470s. Katherine Stillington could not
then have been much younger than her husband, so born by 1457 at the
latest. This would preclude, on chronological grounds, Agnes Bigod (b.
1442) being her mother. So the Stillington pedigree would seem to be
correct in making Katherine the sister-in-law, not the daughter, of
Agnes Bigod, with Agnes's husband Thomas likely being several years
older than his sister Katherine.

The line above then fails at Generation 5, and Eleanor Aldburgh's sole
descent from Edward III is the one John Higgins posted - thru her
paternal grandmother Joan Mauleverer.

Thanks Again and Cheers, --------Brad

Brad Verity

Re: Thomas Wombwell / Catherine Ingleby

Legg inn av Brad Verity » 27 sep 2006 05:25:39

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

Recently Brad Verity mentioned that pedigrees of Ingleby are deficient in
placing Catherine (Ingleby) Wombwell.

While perusing another line, I chanced to come upon tudorplace.com.ar stating
that this Catherine was executor to her mother's will of 12 oct 1478

If true, this could cement the relationship of Catherine (Ingleby) Wombwell
to Jane (Stapleton) Ingleby, which is the relationship they state.

Dear Will,

Many thanks for this - it confirms the information given in the
Wombwell pedigree - that Catherine was the daughter of "William
Ingleby", and helps a great deal with Wombwell chronology. It does
remove the descent of Sir Martin Frobisher from Edward I, but he
certainly, with his rich and adventurous life, didn't suffer at all
from the lack of it. The Wombwells get a Edward I descent starting
with the children of Henry Wombwell of Wombwell, whose wife Catherine
Mauleverer, daughter of Sir William Mauleverer and Anne Conyers, was a
descendant of Edward III.

Cheers, --------Brad

a.spencer3

Re: David Cameron's Wife -- Royal Genealogy?

Legg inn av a.spencer3 » 27 sep 2006 10:09:31

"hippo" <hippo@south-sudan.net> wrote in message
news:12hjhdbtk9aanf8@corp.supernews.com...
"a.spencer3" wrote in message

"hippo" wrote in message

"William Black" wrote in message

He's descended from Elizabeth FitzClarance, the acknowledged bastard
of
William IV, and his mistress Dorothy Jordan.

I'm descended from Edward III through John of Gaunt and Henry Cardinal
Beaufort. Does that make me a despised aristocrat? How far back does
the
onus of aristocracy extend? -the Troll


Oh Gawd, the Beauforts were our local Lords of the Manor in 1437! You
was
probably conceived in my front garden!
Look, just 'cos my Greats clobbered your Greats in Glamorgan way back,
there's no need to get all (or more) bitter & twisted.
You might like the following - a new one for me accidently Googled up
recently.
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/GLA/Lewis1833Gla.html

Trust me, my people were far removed from the majesty of the Beauforts. My
relation is through the bastard daughter of the good Cardinal, himself a
bastard, who was married off to a provincial knight as far away from the
seats of power as possible. Glamorganshire in those days was not at the
forefront of fashion. My family was native Welsh in the paternal line,
although gentrified early on. -the Troll


Well, they thrived better than one branch of my lot who were 'banished

beyond the Welsh' for treason - a fate indeed!!
That was the start of 'Little England' in Pembrokeshire ........

Surreyman

a.spencer3

Re: David Cameron's Wife -- Royal Genealogy?

Legg inn av a.spencer3 » 27 sep 2006 10:11:46

"hippo" <hippo@south-sudan.net> wrote in message
news:12hjhdbtk9aanf8@corp.supernews.com...
"a.spencer3" wrote in message

"hippo" wrote in message

"William Black" wrote in message

He's descended from Elizabeth FitzClarance, the acknowledged bastard
of
William IV, and his mistress Dorothy Jordan.

I'm descended from Edward III through John of Gaunt and Henry Cardinal
Beaufort. Does that make me a despised aristocrat? How far back does
the
onus of aristocracy extend? -the Troll


Oh Gawd, the Beauforts were our local Lords of the Manor in 1437! You
was
probably conceived in my front garden!
Look, just 'cos my Greats clobbered your Greats in Glamorgan way back,
there's no need to get all (or more) bitter & twisted.
You might like the following - a new one for me accidently Googled up
recently.
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/GLA/Lewis1833Gla.html

Trust me, my people were far removed from the majesty of the Beauforts. My
relation is through the bastard daughter of the good Cardinal, himself a
bastard, who was married off to a provincial knight as far away from the
seats of power as possible. Glamorganshire in those days was not at the
forefront of fashion. My family was native Welsh in the paternal line,
although gentrified early on. -the Troll


And, of course, we had both.

It's not impossible that my Lewises were in their mudhuts below the
Spencers' Caerphilly Castle - a family joke that continues to this day!

Surreyman

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: Cony of Bassingbourne

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 27 sep 2006 14:23:38

In message of 27 Sep, WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 9/26/06 2:58:06 PM Pacific Daylight Time, tim@powys.org
writes:

In a message dated 9/26/06 2:26:27 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
roconnor@es.co.nz writes:

Alumuni Oxonsenses records that this Thomas was in fact a fellow of All
Souls College in 1621. Also that he was aged 15 when he matriculated on
4
May 1621. He was thus born circa 1605/6.

He was made a fellow at age 15 ?
That statement seems particularly suspicious to me.

Quite. But I have just had a (virtual) thumb through Alumni Oxoniensis
for 1500 to 1714 and simply cannot find the chap. There is a Thomas
Coney but he was 180 years later. Anyone got any suggestions on what
the name might have been?


Sorry Tim, this thread went way off track ;)
The person in question is Thomas HARRINGTON
son of William Harrington of Witham-on-the-Hill "living in 1625" by his wife
Dorothy Chichley, dau of Thomas Chicheley, Esq of Wimpole, Cambridge (by his
wife said to be Anne Bourne)

The entry definitely says he matriculated and became a fellow in 1621
aged 15. This has to be rubbish. But Foster's handwriting is known to
have been rather cryptic.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/

hippo

Re: David Cameron's Wife -- Royal Genealogy?

Legg inn av hippo » 27 sep 2006 16:07:38

"a.spencer3" wrote in message

"hippo" wrote in message

Oh Gawd, the Beauforts were our local Lords of the Manor in 1437! You
was
probably conceived in my front garden!
Look, just 'cos my Greats clobbered your Greats in Glamorgan way back,
there's no need to get all (or more) bitter & twisted.
You might like the following - a new one for me accidently Googled up
recently.
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/GLA/Lewis1833Gla.html

Trust me, my people were far removed from the majesty of the Beauforts.
My
relation is through the bastard daughter of the good Cardinal, himself a
bastard, who was married off to a provincial knight as far away from the
seats of power as possible. Glamorganshire in those days was not at the
forefront of fashion. My family was native Welsh in the paternal line,
although gentrified early on. -the Troll


And, of course, we had both.
It's not impossible that my Lewises were in their mudhuts below the
Spencers' Caerphilly Castle - a family joke that continues to this day!

It was the same with my people except the castle was St. Donats, held by the
distaff line, while the male line lived outside and tilled the fields. By
the 14th century they no longer lived in a mud hut:

http://www.llantwitmajorvale.co.uk/hist ... house2.htm


....but remained no more than provincial landed gentry. Generations before,
the family were clas clergy and believed themselves to have been descended
from St. Iltud (born c. 480). I have got to get over there and spend a few
weeks in the place I believe my people to have inhabited for at least 400
years and maybe even since the 5th century and earlier. Maybe this
year... -the Troll

a.spencer3

Re: David Cameron's Wife -- Royal Genealogy?

Legg inn av a.spencer3 » 27 sep 2006 17:03:30

"hippo" <hippo@south-sudan.net> wrote in message
news:12hl4tthel0h1b7@corp.supernews.com...
"a.spencer3" wrote in message

"hippo" wrote in message

Oh Gawd, the Beauforts were our local Lords of the Manor in 1437! You
was
probably conceived in my front garden!
Look, just 'cos my Greats clobbered your Greats in Glamorgan way
back,
there's no need to get all (or more) bitter & twisted.
You might like the following - a new one for me accidently Googled up
recently.
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/GLA/Lewis1833Gla.html

Trust me, my people were far removed from the majesty of the Beauforts.
My
relation is through the bastard daughter of the good Cardinal, himself
a
bastard, who was married off to a provincial knight as far away from
the
seats of power as possible. Glamorganshire in those days was not at the
forefront of fashion. My family was native Welsh in the paternal line,
although gentrified early on. -the Troll


And, of course, we had both.
It's not impossible that my Lewises were in their mudhuts below the
Spencers' Caerphilly Castle - a family joke that continues to this day!

It was the same with my people except the castle was St. Donats, held by
the
distaff line, while the male line lived outside and tilled the fields. By
the 14th century they no longer lived in a mud hut:

http://www.llantwitmajorvale.co.uk/hist ... house2.htm


...but remained no more than provincial landed gentry. Generations before,
the family were clas clergy and believed themselves to have been descended
from St. Iltud (born c. 480). I have got to get over there and spend a few
weeks in the place I believe my people to have inhabited for at least 400
years and maybe even since the 5th century and earlier. Maybe this
year... -the Troll


Which brick is 1300s! :-))

I've heard that the oldest part of Caerphilly below the castle was
relatively recently demolished for a supermarket or some xxxxxx thing.
I remember the old buildings (but their dates didn't impinge in my youth).
Can't really believe it, and don't know the facts.
My mother's family's cottage in which she first lived in a nearby village is
still there - but that's a mere late 1700s.

Surreyman

D. Spencer Hines

Re: David Cameron's Wife -- Royal Genealogy?

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 27 sep 2006 17:43:17

Yes, I've been saying for years that Horsellman Rarebit is obviously a
crabbed "Little Englander" himself.

DSH

"a.spencer3" <a.spencer3@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:fdrSg.47255$7D6.44719@newsfe2-win.ntli.net...

Well, they thrived better than one branch of my lot who were 'banished
beyond the Welsh' for treason - a fate indeed!!
That was the start of 'Little England' in Pembrokeshire ........

Surreyman

a.spencer3

Re: David Cameron's Wife -- Royal Genealogy?

Legg inn av a.spencer3 » 27 sep 2006 17:56:42

"D. Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:NSxSg.495$B16.4837@eagle.america.net...
Yes, I've been saying for years that Horsellman Rarebit is obviously a
crabbed "Little Englander" himself.

DSH


Do you have any idea at all what we're discussing?

Twit.

Virginia was enjoyed!

Surreyman

hippo

Re: David Cameron's Wife -- Royal Genealogy?

Legg inn av hippo » 27 sep 2006 21:26:49

"a.spencer3" wrote in message

"hippo" wrote in message

It was the same with my people except the castle was St. Donats, held by
the
distaff line, while the male line lived outside and tilled the fields. By
the 14th century they no longer lived in a mud hut:

http://www.llantwitmajorvale.co.uk/hist ... house2.htm


...but remained no more than provincial landed gentry. Generations
before,
the family were clas clergy and believed themselves to have been
descended
from St. Iltud (born c. 480). I have got to get over there and spend a
few
weeks in the place I believe my people to have inhabited for at least 400
years and maybe even since the 5th century and earlier. Maybe this
year... -the Troll


Which brick is 1300s! :-))

I dunno. The castle was added to right up to recent times (by Randolph
Hurst) and so was Ty Mawr, the old house, which looks mostly later Tudor.

I've heard that the oldest part of Caerphilly below the castle was
relatively recently demolished for a supermarket or some xxxxxx thing.
I remember the old buildings (but their dates didn't impinge in my youth).
Can't really believe it, and don't know the facts.
My mother's family's cottage in which she first lived in a nearby village
is
still there - but that's a mere late 1700s.

A ha, snag the cottage and live there instead of roasting in the Spanish sun
and being daily poisoned by rot gut rojo and rubbery octopus tentacles. -the
Troll

Gjest

Re: Tempest of Staynforth & kinship with Lacy of Cromwellbot

Legg inn av Gjest » 27 sep 2006 21:55:03

Wednesday, 27 September, 2006


Hello All,

The following is a fragmentary pedigree as I now have it of the Talbots
of Bashall, down to Mary (wife of Sir Richard Tempest) and following the
Tempest descent to Sir Robert Tempest of Staynforth. This adds little to past
discussions of the Talbots of Bashall, except (1) the addition of John Talbot, son
and successor of the first Edmund Talbot (1310/11), and (2) reflecting
certain landholdings in the 14th century the history of which may assist in
resolving the relationships between the Tempests of Bashall (and possibly the Talbots)
and the Lacys of Cromwellbotham.

A followup post will deal with the Lacys, at least as they now stand.

Cheers,

John




1 Sir Robert de Holand[1]
----------------------------------------

Spouse: Elizabeth de Samlesbury[1]

Children: Sir Robert de Holand, Lord Holand (-1328)

Joan

1.1 Joan de Holand
----------------------------------------

' Joan who was the wife of Edmund Talbot held 2 ploughlands in
Risseton [Rishton] by the service of the 4th part of a knight's
fee and renders 12d. yearly at the same term [feast of St. Giles],
and does suit at the aforesaid court [of Clitheroe]. '
IPM of Henry de Lacy, earl of Lincoln, dated 26 Feb 1310/11
[Farrer, Lancashire Inquests p. 11[2]]

a moiety of the manor of Hapton, Lancs. was (apparently) her
maritagium:
record of the extent of the lands of Thomas, earl of Lancaster, 1322:
' Of Nicholas Deuias, farmer of the manor of Samlesbury, which
was Robert de Holand's, t. Easter and Michaelmas L32; of William
de Chaydok, farmer of 2 parts of the tenements which were the
said Robert's at le Ewod, t. St. Giles, 15s.; of Adam del Clogh,
farmer of 2 parts of the manor of Hapton which was in the said
Robert's hand by reason of the minority of the heir of Edmund
Talbot, same t. L6s. 6s. 8d., which said manor and tenements
were let to farm by John Travers and Robert de Nottingham by
the king's writ from Michaelmas 16th year for 3 years next
following. ' [Farrer, Lancashire Inquests p. 202[2]]
_____________________

re: her husband:
of Bashall, co. Yorks.

he d. before 26 Feb 1310/11:
' The heir of Sir Edmund Talbot held one ploughland in Hapton
by the service of the 8th part of a knight's fee, and renders
13d. yearly at Midsummer and doe suit at the court of Clidrehowe
from three weeks to three weeks. ' IPM of Henry de Lacy, earl of
Lincoln, dated 26 Feb 1310/11 [Farrer, Lancashire Inquests, II:10[2]]

Spouse: Sir Edmund Talbot, of Bashall, co. Yorks.
Death: bef 26 Feb 1310[2],[3]

Children: John (>1305->1328)
Sir Thomas (-<1366)


1.1.1 John Talbot
----------------------------------------
Birth: aft 22 Jul 1305[3]
Death: aft 1328, d.s.p.[3]

of Bashall, co. Yorks. and Hapton, co. Lancs.

' The heir of Sir Edmund Talbot held one ploughland in Hapton
by the service of the 8th part of a knight's fee, and renders
13d. yearly at Midsummer and doe suit at the court of Clidrehowe
from three weeks to three weeks.
Henry de Lacy of Crumbewelle [-bothum] held the hamlet of
Brydestwysel [Birtwistle], namely half a ploughland by homage
and the service of 4s. yearly at the same term, and by doing
suit at the aforesaid court. ' IPM of Henry de Lacy, earl of
Lincoln, dated 26 Feb 1310/11 [Farrer, Lancashire Inquests, II:10[2]]

following the release of the castle and manor of Clitheroe,
Blackburn, etc. by Alicia de Lacy on 9 July 1322, a record was
made of " The Names of those who are Distrained to make their
Homage to the King According to the Tenour of the King's Writ ",
including:
' Brian de Thornhill who holds in Folrigge one ploughland for the
9th part of a knight's fee.
John Talbot, who is of about 18 years of age, holds in Rissheton
2 ploughlands for the 10th part of a kinght's fee; and the town
of Hapton, now being in the king's hand by reason of wardship, for
the 3rd part of a knight's fee.
Robert de Shireburn and Alice his wife, as of the right of the
same Alice, Agnes du Lee, and Thomas D'Ardern, coparceners of
Wysewalle hold in the same 2 ploughlands for the 9th part of
a knight's fee. ' [Farrer, Lancashire Inquests pp. 133-4[2]]


IPM of Henry de Shuttleworth (dated at Clitheroe, 22 Jul 1326)
stated that he
' held certain lands and tenements in Shuttleworth of John Talbot,
son and heir of Edmund Talbot [who was] under age ' [ "dicunt
quod Henricus de Shuttleworth tenuit quasdam terras et quedam
ten: in Shutleworth de Johanne Talbot filio et hered: Edmundi
Talbot infra etat: ... " ] [Towneley, Abs. IPM II:152[3]; also
Farrer, Lancashire Inquests p. 220, no. CXLV[2]]


1.1.2 Sir Thomas Talbot
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1366[4]

of Bashall, co. Yorks. and Hapton, co. Lancs.

succeeded his brother John

Children: Mary
Edmund Talbot, of Bashall (-1372)


1.1.2.1 Mary Talbot
----------------------------------------

Spouse: Sir Richard Tempest, of Bracewell, co. Yorks.
Father: Sir John Tempest (->1354)
Mother: Katherine (->1354)

Children: Sir Richard (ca1356-<1430)


1.1.2.1.1 Sir Richard Tempest
----------------------------------------
Birth: ca 1356
Death: bef 30 Sep 1430

of Bracewell, co. Yorks.

Spouse: Margaret de Stainforth
Father: Robert de Stainforth (->1390)

Children: Sir Piers
Sir Robert
Roger
John
Richard


1.1.2.1.1.1 Sir Robert Tempest
----------------------------------------

of Staynforth
younger (probably 2nd) son

record of dispenstion for her marriage, dated 7 Jan 1407/8:
' Dispensation for Robert, son of Sir Richard Tempest, domicellus,
and Alice, dau. of John Lacy, domicella, in the diocese of York,
to marry, although twice related in the 4th degree. Ibid. 11. '
[Testa. Ebor III:319[5]]

Spouse: Alice Lacy
Father: [Probable] John Lacy, of Cromwellbotham, co. Yorks. (->1442)
Mother: [Probable] Emmota (->1442)
Marr: aft 7 Jan 1407[5]

Children: Sir Richard Tempest of Staynforth


1. Frederick L. Weis, Th. D., "The Magna Carta Sureties, 1215,"
Baltimore: Gen Pub Co., 5th ed., 1997 (W. L. Sheppard Jr & David
Faris).
2. William Farrer, ed., "Lancashire Inquests, Extents, and Feudal
Aids, A.D. 1205 - A.D. 1307," The Record Society for the
Publication of Original Documents relating to Lancashire and
Cheshire, Vol. XLVIII, Liverpool: W. Barton and Co., 1903,
courtesy Googlebooks.
3. Christopher Towneley, "Towneley's Abstracts of Inquisitions
post Mortem," London: printed for the Chetham Society,
Vol. XCIX (vol. II of Abstracts), 1875.
4. John R. Schuerman and Douglas Hickling, "Tempest Wives and
Daughters in the Late Medieval Period," Medieval English
Genealogy, courtesy Chris Phillips,
http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk
5. "Testamenta Eboracensia [A Selection of Wills from the
Registry at York]," The Surtees Society, Andrews & Co.,
Durham, Vol. III (1865).


* John P. Ravilious

Gjest

Re: Tempest of Staynforth & kinship with Lacy of Cromwellbot

Legg inn av Gjest » 28 sep 2006 01:10:03

In a message dated 9/27/06 7:35:17 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Therav3 writes:

<< Sir Richard Tempest d. bef 30 Sept 1430 >>

On this date for his death terminus
j-schuerman@uchicago.edu (John)
posted here on 6/25/06
that
"EBT believes he died in 1428, citing non-payment of an annuity due to him
"because he is dead" (quoting Duchy of Lancaster Minister's accounts No. 8352,
bdl. 524 and accounts of the Priory of Finchale for May 1429 to May 1430,
Surtees Soc. Pub., v. 6, p. cciii)."

At the least, if "he is dead" by the terminal date of the PoF records May
1430, then this should say
"d bef 31 May 1430"

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Tempest of Staynforth & kinship with Lacy of Cromwellbot

Legg inn av Gjest » 28 sep 2006 01:30:03

In a message dated 9/27/06 12:39:35 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Therav3 writes:

<< 1.1.2.1 Mary Talbot
----------------------------------------

Spouse: Sir Richard Tempest, of Bracewell, co. Yorks.
Father: Sir John Tempest (->1354)
Mother: Katherine (->1354)

Children: Sir Richard (ca1356-<1430) >>


Is the above couple that one where John is called a son of John Tempest of
Bracewell by his wife Margaret Holand ?
And then the above John married a Katherine said-to-be Shurburne?
Thanks
Will

Gjest

Re: Sir Adam Fitz John, of Ermesthorp: Ancestor of Sir Walte

Legg inn av Gjest » 28 sep 2006 01:40:03

In a message dated 9/27/06 8:13:28 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:

<< 2. John Fitz Hugh, Knt., of Rippingale and Kirkby Underwood,
Lincolnshire, occurs c. 1243-1259, died before 1262. He married Amabel
_____, living 1281. They had two sons, John Fitz John, Knt., and Adam
Fitz John. >>


You had posted previously that he "presented to the church of Rippingale
before 1235"

so shouldn't he occur "c 1235-1259" ? instead of 1243 ?
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Kendall, Gospatrick, Samlesbury

Legg inn av Gjest » 28 sep 2006 01:50:03

In a message dated 9/27/06 8:59:36 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
designeconomic@yahoo.com writes:

<< Gospatric (son) Orm 1110-1179 held his father's
estates, Lord of Workington and included lands of
Copeland and Westmoreland of the Lancasters (Gilbert
Lancaster being brother of Orm), and several manors
within Barony of Egremont >>

I'm not sure what documentation is being used to set his birthyear as 1110.
In a recent discussion here where we hashed and re-hashed to death all the
relevant document (I believe) no information on exactly when he was born was
presented.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Thomas Wombwell / Catherine Ingleby

Legg inn av Gjest » 28 sep 2006 06:15:03

In a message dated 9/26/06 9:27:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
royaldescent@hotmail.com writes:

<< It does
remove the descent of Sir Martin Frobisher from Edward I, but he
certainly, with his rich and adventurous life, didn't suffer at all
from the lack of it. >>

Funny Brad that you should mention Martin Frobisher.
I only the other day, found the indication that the Martin Frobisher who was
so famous is the same Martin I had married to Dorothy Wentworth dau of Thomas
Baron Wentworth by his wife Margaret Fortesque.

Martin Frobisher had married firstly to Isabel Richard
and Dorothy Wentworth had married firstly to Sir William Widmerpoole who died
in 1579

She was widowed for a while as combining wikipedia with tudorplace.com.ar
says they married in 1591

Martin Frobisher died 22 Nov 1594 at Plymouth, England after which Dorothy
married for the third and last time to Sir John Saville of Methley sometime
before her own death 3 Jan 1601

I have an almost complete five generation chart for Dorothy except I do not
yet know who the parents of
John Fortescue of Ponsbourne (Sheriff of Cornwall 1471, Sheriff of Hertford
1481) were. He married Alice Boleyn, daughter of Geoffrey, Lord Mayor of
London 1458 by his wife Anne Hoo

I also don't have any children for any of Dorothy's marriages yet. I'm not
sure if there were any. Certainly by the time she married Martin she was about
48 so its unlikely they had any.

Martin Frobisher does have a descent from William the Conqueror through the
Wombwell/Ingleby marriage as far as I'm showing it right now.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Mauleverer - additions to RPA/PA3 and MCA?

Legg inn av Gjest » 28 sep 2006 06:16:02

In a message dated 9/26/06 9:17:17 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
royaldescent@hotmail.com writes:

<< 4) Agnes Bigod (b. 1442; living 1510; m. 2nd, Marmaduke Vavasour) m. 1)
Thomas
Stillington of Acaster Selby, Yorkshire (d. by 1500), and had >>

Brad above you say Agnes living 1510. This item which you posted

C 1/940/15-16 William ALKOCKE, provost of the college of Acaster, and the
fellows of the same, v. Marmaduke VAVASOR, husband of Agnes, late the wife of
Thomas Styllyngton, and William CARTE alias Tayte.: Detention of deeds relating
to land in Acaster Selby.: YORK. 1538-1544


To me this says that Agnes is alive right now. Marmaduke is listed as her
husband, not "late the husband" and she is listed as "deceased" or anything of
that sort. So to me it's saying, he is her husband right now. And the deeds
are dated 1538-44.

Will Johnson

John Higgins

Re: Thomas Wombwell / Catherine Ingleby

Legg inn av John Higgins » 28 sep 2006 07:15:02

A small note to fill your Fortescue gap:

The parents of Sir John Fortescue of Ponsbourne, who mar. Alice Boleyn,
were Sir Richard Fortescue of Ponsbourne (d. 1455, battle of St. Albans) and
Agnes, dau. of Sir Walter Windsor of Devon.

Source: Lord Clermont's "History of the Family of Fortescue"

----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 9:09 PM
Subject: Re: Thomas Wombwell / Catherine Ingleby


In a message dated 9/26/06 9:27:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
royaldescent@hotmail.com writes:

It does
remove the descent of Sir Martin Frobisher from Edward I, but he
certainly, with his rich and adventurous life, didn't suffer at all
from the lack of it.

Funny Brad that you should mention Martin Frobisher.
I only the other day, found the indication that the Martin Frobisher who
was
so famous is the same Martin I had married to Dorothy Wentworth dau of
Thomas
Baron Wentworth by his wife Margaret Fortesque.

Martin Frobisher had married firstly to Isabel Richard
and Dorothy Wentworth had married firstly to Sir William Widmerpoole who
died
in 1579

She was widowed for a while as combining wikipedia with tudorplace.com.ar
says they married in 1591

Martin Frobisher died 22 Nov 1594 at Plymouth, England after which Dorothy
married for the third and last time to Sir John Saville of Methley
sometime
before her own death 3 Jan 1601

I have an almost complete five generation chart for Dorothy except I do
not
yet know who the parents of
John Fortescue of Ponsbourne (Sheriff of Cornwall 1471, Sheriff of
Hertford
1481) were. He married Alice Boleyn, daughter of Geoffrey, Lord Mayor of
London 1458 by his wife Anne Hoo

I also don't have any children for any of Dorothy's marriages yet. I'm
not
sure if there were any. Certainly by the time she married Martin she was
about
48 so its unlikely they had any.

Martin Frobisher does have a descent from William the Conqueror through
the
Wombwell/Ingleby marriage as far as I'm showing it right now.

Will Johnson

Erkki A Tikkanen

Re: OT - Finland

Legg inn av Erkki A Tikkanen » 28 sep 2006 11:15:52

Hi,
Finland has nobility of it´s own also. We have a common history with Sweden
to year 1808, that is why we have also common noble families.
This is a link to our Ritarihuone/Riddarhuset/House of Nobility. The
language is only Finnish or Swedish, that is a pity, but there are links to
the Finnish noble families. http://www.riddarhuset.fi/fi/index.php?id=13
If someone have any questions about Finnish noble families, I can try to
help.

http://www.riddarhuset.fi/fi/index.php?id=11

Erkki

Finland's aristocracy is very much part of the Swedish nobility.
Leo

----- Original Message -----
From: <paulvheath@gmail.com
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 5:03 AM
Subject: Re: OT - Finland


Jwc1870@aol.com wrote:

Does Finland have nobility ?


http://bayimages.net/helsinki/buildings ... /i379.html


a.spencer3

Re: David Cameron's Wife -- Royal Genealogy?

Legg inn av a.spencer3 » 28 sep 2006 11:19:47

"hippo" <hippo@south-sudan.net> wrote in message
news:12hlnkbijl6rl98@corp.supernews.com...
"a.spencer3" wrote in message

"hippo" wrote in message

It was the same with my people except the castle was St. Donats, held
by
the
distaff line, while the male line lived outside and tilled the fields.
By
the 14th century they no longer lived in a mud hut:

http://www.llantwitmajorvale.co.uk/hist ... house2.htm


...but remained no more than provincial landed gentry. Generations
before,
the family were clas clergy and believed themselves to have been
descended
from St. Iltud (born c. 480). I have got to get over there and spend a
few
weeks in the place I believe my people to have inhabited for at least
400
years and maybe even since the 5th century and earlier. Maybe this
year... -the Troll


Which brick is 1300s! :-))

I dunno. The castle was added to right up to recent times (by Randolph
Hurst) and so was Ty Mawr, the old house, which looks mostly later Tudor.

I've heard that the oldest part of Caerphilly below the castle was
relatively recently demolished for a supermarket or some xxxxxx thing.
I remember the old buildings (but their dates didn't impinge in my
youth).
Can't really believe it, and don't know the facts.
My mother's family's cottage in which she first lived in a nearby
village
is
still there - but that's a mere late 1700s.

A ha, snag the cottage and live there instead of roasting in the Spanish
sun
and being daily poisoned by rot gut rojo and rubbery octopus
tentacles. -the
Troll


Have you ever seen Welsh 1800s mining terraces in the rain!

Surreyman

Bryn

Re: David Cameron's Wife -- Royal Genealogy?

Legg inn av Bryn » 28 sep 2006 13:02:53

In message <7lNSg.34950$TF5.29433@newsfe1-win.ntli.net>, a.spencer3
<a.spencer3@ntlworld.com> writes
"hippo" <hippo@south-sudan.net> wrote in message
news:12hlnkbijl6rl98@corp.supernews.com...

"a.spencer3" wrote in message

"hippo" wrote in message

It was the same with my people except the castle was St. Donats, held
by
the
distaff line, while the male line lived outside and tilled the fields.
By
the 14th century they no longer lived in a mud hut:

http://www.llantwitmajorvale.co.uk/hist ... house2.htm


...but remained no more than provincial landed gentry. Generations
before,
the family were clas clergy and believed themselves to have been
descended
from St. Iltud (born c. 480). I have got to get over there and spend a
few
weeks in the place I believe my people to have inhabited for at least
400
years and maybe even since the 5th century and earlier. Maybe this
year... -the Troll


Which brick is 1300s! :-))

I dunno. The castle was added to right up to recent times (by Randolph
Hurst) and so was Ty Mawr, the old house, which looks mostly later Tudor.

I've heard that the oldest part of Caerphilly below the castle was
relatively recently demolished for a supermarket or some xxxxxx thing.
I remember the old buildings (but their dates didn't impinge in my
youth).
Can't really believe it, and don't know the facts.
My mother's family's cottage in which she first lived in a nearby
village
is
still there - but that's a mere late 1700s.

A ha, snag the cottage and live there instead of roasting in the Spanish
sun
and being daily poisoned by rot gut rojo and rubbery octopus
tentacles. -the
Troll


Have you ever seen Welsh 1800s mining terraces in the rain!


Yes, in January. Bl Festinigog (sp), we were going to move there, but
in June we noticed that the nettles and the foxgloves where about 6
inches high and in full flower...

And there is a huge rock poised over the village, held in place by a
single rusting chain.

The people were lovely...


--
Bryn

My wife has ruined my 'elf!
I think she sat on him..

Erkki A Tikkanen

Re: OT - Finland

Legg inn av Erkki A Tikkanen » 28 sep 2006 14:14:52

Here is something more in English:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_nobility

Erkki

hippo

Re: David Cameron's Wife -- Royal Genealogy?

Legg inn av hippo » 28 sep 2006 16:26:08

"a.spencer3" wrote in message

[.]

My mother's family's cottage in which she first lived in a nearby
village
is
still there - but that's a mere late 1700s.

A ha, snag the cottage and live there instead of roasting in the Spanish
sun
and being daily poisoned by rot gut rojo and rubbery octopus
tentacles.

Have you ever seen Welsh 1800s mining terraces in the rain!

While the mines were open I suspect most of South Wales was covered with a
film of coal dust and smelled of it. By now the place must have almost
returned to the garden spot it was before. By terraces, I presume you mean
houses butting up against one another.

My friends in Northern Ireland have a stone cottage not quite as old. It is
a thoroughly nifty place to live with thick granite walls and old blackened
beamed ceilings. -the Troll

Turenne

Re: Mauleverer - additions to RPA/PA3 and MCA?

Legg inn av Turenne » 28 sep 2006 16:30:46

As you are no doubt aware, a descendant (I think) exists today in the
person of Marmaduke Hussey, Baron Hussey of North Bradley (b.1923) who
was at one time Chairman of Governors of the BBC. He married Lady Susan
Hussey, (a Woman Of the Bedchamber to The Queen), a daughter of the
12th Earl Waldegrave who in turn is descended from the 1st Baron
Waldegrave who married Henrietta Fitzjames, a natural daughter of James
II and Arabella Churchill.

Richard Lichten
WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 9/26/06 12:27:57 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk writes:

Probably useless, as I've- naturally!- forgotten the source, but I've
got the dates 1455-1501 down for Sir William Ingleby, and his wife
Catherine Stillington as d.1500. Their daughter Joan/Jane married Sir
Robert Constable whose dates are (estimated by DNB?) 1478?-1537. The
son John Ingleby (d.1502) married a sister of Constable's, Eleanor
(d.1525, afterwards married to Lord Berkeley), their father Marmaduke
Constable's dates per new DNB being 1456/7?-1518.


Robert Constable's death date is 8 June 1537 he was executed at Beverley
Gate, Hull, Yorkshire
His birth year of 1478
(http://bz.llano.net/gowen/hussey_millen ... s_003.html and also http://www.tudorplace.com.ar)
Tudorplace.com.ar gives Jane a birth of 1472 which isn't entirely implausible.
I show three children: Anne, Catherine and Marmaduke all born between 1495
and 1503

For John Ingleby we're restricted above and below. Tudorplace states his
*son* William was born in 1494 and we know his *father* William was born in 1455
so that's fairly limiting isn't it? John's birth is given as 1477 and died 27
Aug 1502 at Ripley, Yorkshire again by tudorplace.com.ar

Agnes or Anne who married Richard Goldesborough is the wild card. I have
nothing to indicate when she was born or died.

Will

Brad Verity

Re: Mauleverer - additions to RPA/PA3 and MCA?

Legg inn av Brad Verity » 28 sep 2006 17:04:28

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

Brad above you say Agnes living 1510. This item which you posted

C 1/940/15-16 William ALKOCKE, provost of the college of Acaster, and the
fellows of the same, v. Marmaduke VAVASOR, husband of Agnes, late the wife of
Thomas Styllyngton, and William CARTE alias Tayte.: Detention of deeds relating
to land in Acaster Selby.: YORK. 1538-1544

To me this says that Agnes is alive right now. Marmaduke is listed as her
husband, not "late the husband" and she is listed as "deceased" or anything of
that sort. So to me it's saying, he is her husband right now. And the deeds
are dated 1538-44.

Will,

I think if Agnes were still alive when that lawsuit was filed, she
would have been named as a defendant along with her husband Vavasour.
The fact that it is just Vavasour who is named indicates Agnes had died
by that point, and Vavasour was in possession of deeds relating to the
college of Acaster. That college, by the way, had been founded by
Robert Stillington, bishop of Bath and Wells, uncle of Agnes's first
husband Thomas Stillington. So Agnes had those deeds in her possession
as Thomas's widow, then Vavasour held them in his possession as widower
of Agnes. The dates 1538-1544 indicate the period that the National
Archives believes the lawsuit dates from - the deeds themselves
relating to the land in Acaster Selby could have been of a much earlier
date.

Cheers, ------Brad

a.spencer3

Re: David Cameron's Wife -- Royal Genealogy?

Legg inn av a.spencer3 » 28 sep 2006 17:07:32

"hippo" <hippo@south-sudan.net> wrote in message
news:12hnqcj2qku9v9a@corp.supernews.com...
"a.spencer3" wrote in message

[.]

My mother's family's cottage in which she first lived in a nearby
village
is
still there - but that's a mere late 1700s.

A ha, snag the cottage and live there instead of roasting in the
Spanish
sun
and being daily poisoned by rot gut rojo and rubbery octopus
tentacles.

Have you ever seen Welsh 1800s mining terraces in the rain!

While the mines were open I suspect most of South Wales was covered with a
film of coal dust and smelled of it. By now the place must have almost
returned to the garden spot it was before. By terraces, I presume you mean
houses butting up against one another.

My friends in Northern Ireland have a stone cottage not quite as old. It
is
a thoroughly nifty place to live with thick granite walls and old
blackened
beamed ceilings. -the Troll


Yep, great changes from when I was there in the 40/50s.

Not a single mine is now open, which is unbelievable.
The tips (minor mountains of mine waste) are now largely grassed over.
But the ex-mining built-up valleys are still hardly garden spots.
The cefns between the valleys are of course extremely pleasant - but always
were, and especially were then as an escape. But even my local Caerphilly
Mountain apparently now has modern suburbs spreading up it!
It seemed pretty terrible to outsiders in the mining days, but did have its
own culture, which as a 'visiting insider' I then thoroughly enjoyed. I
still remember my grandfather coming back from the pit, black as xxxxxxxx,
and bathing in a tub in the living room in front of us all - not an urban
legend!
Now, the hardware's still there but without much of the software ......
But don't get me wrong. Outside of the mining areas there are, obviously,
some glorious areas of South Wales. My uncle (recently dead) and cousin live
at the extreme end of the Gower - delightful stuff. And there are the
Brecons, as long as you avoid the SAS! Your lot's bit is still pretty
attractive, too.

Surreyman

a.spencer3

Re: David Cameron's Wife -- Royal Genealogy?

Legg inn av a.spencer3 » 28 sep 2006 17:10:54

"Bryn" <Scotland-the-Brave@finhall.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:512XLsAtn7GFFwLo@finhall.demon.co.uk...
In message <7lNSg.34950$TF5.29433@newsfe1-win.ntli.net>, a.spencer3
a.spencer3@ntlworld.com> writes

"hippo" <hippo@south-sudan.net> wrote in message
news:12hlnkbijl6rl98@corp.supernews.com...

"a.spencer3" wrote in message

"hippo" wrote in message

It was the same with my people except the castle was St. Donats,
held
by
the
distaff line, while the male line lived outside and tilled the
fields.
By
the 14th century they no longer lived in a mud hut:

http://www.llantwitmajorvale.co.uk/hist ... house2.htm


...but remained no more than provincial landed gentry. Generations
before,
the family were clas clergy and believed themselves to have been
descended
from St. Iltud (born c. 480). I have got to get over there and spend
a
few
weeks in the place I believe my people to have inhabited for at
least
400
years and maybe even since the 5th century and earlier. Maybe this
year... -the Troll


Which brick is 1300s! :-))

I dunno. The castle was added to right up to recent times (by Randolph
Hurst) and so was Ty Mawr, the old house, which looks mostly later
Tudor.

I've heard that the oldest part of Caerphilly below the castle was
relatively recently demolished for a supermarket or some xxxxxx
thing.
I remember the old buildings (but their dates didn't impinge in my
youth).
Can't really believe it, and don't know the facts.
My mother's family's cottage in which she first lived in a nearby
village
is
still there - but that's a mere late 1700s.

A ha, snag the cottage and live there instead of roasting in the
Spanish
sun
and being daily poisoned by rot gut rojo and rubbery octopus
tentacles. -the
Troll


Have you ever seen Welsh 1800s mining terraces in the rain!


Yes, in January. Bl Festinigog (sp), we were going to move there, but
in June we noticed that the nettles and the foxgloves where about 6
inches high and in full flower...

And there is a huge rock poised over the village, held in place by a
single rusting chain.

The people were lovely...


Well, that's North Wales and slate - different planet! Great scenery
though - an uncle had a farm just outside Capel Curig up there.

Surreyman

hippo

Re: David Cameron's Wife -- Royal Genealogy?

Legg inn av hippo » 28 sep 2006 18:24:18

"a.spencer3" wrote in message

"hippo" wrote in message

"a.spencer3" wrote in message

[.]

While the mines were open I suspect most of South Wales was covered with
a
film of coal dust and smelled of it. By now the place must have almost
returned to the garden spot it was before. By terraces, I presume you
mean
houses butting up against one another.

My friends in Northern Ireland have a stone cottage not quite as old. It
is
a thoroughly nifty place to live with thick granite walls and old
blackened
beamed ceilings. -the Troll


Yep, great changes from when I was there in the 40/50s.
Not a single mine is now open, which is unbelievable.
The tips (minor mountains of mine waste) are now largely grassed over.
But the ex-mining built-up valleys are still hardly garden spots.
The cefns between the valleys are of course extremely pleasant - but
always
were, and especially were then as an escape. But even my local Caerphilly
Mountain apparently now has modern suburbs spreading up it!
It seemed pretty terrible to outsiders in the mining days, but did have
its
own culture, which as a 'visiting insider' I then thoroughly enjoyed. I
still remember my grandfather coming back from the pit, black as xxxxxxxx,
and bathing in a tub in the living room in front of us all - not an urban
legend!
Now, the hardware's still there but without much of the software ......
But don't get me wrong. Outside of the mining areas there are, obviously,
some glorious areas of South Wales. My uncle (recently dead) and cousin
live
at the extreme end of the Gower - delightful stuff. And there are the
Brecons, as long as you avoid the SAS! Your lot's bit is still pretty
attractive, too.

I have never seen Llantwtt Major, Cowbridge, St. Donats, or Edgewy Brewis
except in pictures. The churchyards there are filled with my ancestors. It's
a deficit I mean to fill. -the Troll

D. Spencer Hines

Re: John Isaac Bates [1598-1666] Gateway Ancestor From Kent

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 28 sep 2006 18:42:11

Well, that then makes you some sort of unfeasibly distant relative of
mine too.
--

Julian Richards
-------------------------------------------------------------------


No, not necessarily true at all.

Julian doesn't understand genealogical relationships.

If A is related to B and also to C that does not mean B and C are
necessarily, indubitably related.

It's about COMMON ANCESTORS.

Just because Hines and Richards have some Common Ancestors and Hines and
Satterfield ALSO have some Common Ancestors does NOT mean that Richards and
Satterfield necessarily and indubitably have Common Ancestors too.

Put your thinking cap on, Julian.

DSH

"Julian Richards" <julian@spam-me-not.co.uk> wrote in message
news:l81oh2ho6s9ng6118stqldlffidduik31b@4ax.com...

On Tue, 26 Sep 2006 15:25:44 -0500, Grey Satterfield
gsatterfield@cox.net> wrote:

I don't recall how I am descended from John Bates. My late wife was a
serious genealogist and knew as much as anyone about the musty old
Satterfield family. While she explained it all to me when she found the
connection I don't remember the details. It does seem, though, that she
found a relationship between Bates and one of my 18th Century ancestors,
Bidwell Satterfield.

That Spencer and I are related is remarkable, indeed. Should I laugh or
cry? Should Spencer? :)

Well, that then makes you some sort of unfeasibly distant relative of
mine too.
--

Julian Richards

Bryn

Re: David Cameron's Wife -- Royal Genealogy?

Legg inn av Bryn » 28 sep 2006 18:47:30

In message <iuSSg.48049$7D6.36971@newsfe2-win.ntli.net>, a.spencer3
<a.spencer3@ntlworld.com> writes
"Bryn" <Scotland-the-Brave@finhall.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:512XLsAtn7GFFwLo@finhall.demon.co.uk...
In message <7lNSg.34950$TF5.29433@newsfe1-win.ntli.net>, a.spencer3
a.spencer3@ntlworld.com> writes

"hippo" <hippo@south-sudan.net> wrote in message
news:12hlnkbijl6rl98@corp.supernews.com...

"a.spencer3" wrote in message

"hippo" wrote in message

It was the same with my people except the castle was St. Donats,
held
by
the
distaff line, while the male line lived outside and tilled the
fields.
By
the 14th century they no longer lived in a mud hut:

http://www.llantwitmajorvale.co.uk/hist ... house2.htm


...but remained no more than provincial landed gentry. Generations
before,
the family were clas clergy and believed themselves to have been
descended
from St. Iltud (born c. 480). I have got to get over there and spend
a
few
weeks in the place I believe my people to have inhabited for at
least
400
years and maybe even since the 5th century and earlier. Maybe this
year... -the Troll


Which brick is 1300s! :-))

I dunno. The castle was added to right up to recent times (by Randolph
Hurst) and so was Ty Mawr, the old house, which looks mostly later
Tudor.

I've heard that the oldest part of Caerphilly below the castle was
relatively recently demolished for a supermarket or some xxxxxx
thing.
I remember the old buildings (but their dates didn't impinge in my
youth).
Can't really believe it, and don't know the facts.
My mother's family's cottage in which she first lived in a nearby
village
is
still there - but that's a mere late 1700s.

A ha, snag the cottage and live there instead of roasting in the
Spanish
sun
and being daily poisoned by rot gut rojo and rubbery octopus
tentacles. -the
Troll


Have you ever seen Welsh 1800s mining terraces in the rain!


Yes, in January. Bl Festinigog (sp), we were going to move there, but
in June we noticed that the nettles and the foxgloves where about 6
inches high and in full flower...

And there is a huge rock poised over the village, held in place by a
single rusting chain.

The people were lovely...


Well, that's North Wales and slate - different planet! Great scenery
though - an uncle had a farm just outside Capel Curig up there.

Its stunning but can be very strange to look at as the light goes..



--
Bryn

My wife has ruined my 'elf!
I think she sat on him..

a.spencer3

Re: David Cameron's Wife -- Royal Genealogy?

Legg inn av a.spencer3 » 28 sep 2006 19:12:30

"hippo" <hippo@south-sudan.net> wrote in message
news:12ho1a5nvg42afe@corp.supernews.com...
"a.spencer3" wrote in message

"hippo" wrote in message

"a.spencer3" wrote in message

[.]

While the mines were open I suspect most of South Wales was covered
with
a
film of coal dust and smelled of it. By now the place must have almost
returned to the garden spot it was before. By terraces, I presume you
mean
houses butting up against one another.

My friends in Northern Ireland have a stone cottage not quite as old.
It
is
a thoroughly nifty place to live with thick granite walls and old
blackened
beamed ceilings. -the Troll


Yep, great changes from when I was there in the 40/50s.
Not a single mine is now open, which is unbelievable.
The tips (minor mountains of mine waste) are now largely grassed over.
But the ex-mining built-up valleys are still hardly garden spots.
The cefns between the valleys are of course extremely pleasant - but
always
were, and especially were then as an escape. But even my local
Caerphilly
Mountain apparently now has modern suburbs spreading up it!
It seemed pretty terrible to outsiders in the mining days, but did have
its
own culture, which as a 'visiting insider' I then thoroughly enjoyed. I
still remember my grandfather coming back from the pit, black as
xxxxxxxx,
and bathing in a tub in the living room in front of us all - not an
urban
legend!
Now, the hardware's still there but without much of the software ......
But don't get me wrong. Outside of the mining areas there are,
obviously,
some glorious areas of South Wales. My uncle (recently dead) and cousin
live
at the extreme end of the Gower - delightful stuff. And there are the
Brecons, as long as you avoid the SAS! Your lot's bit is still pretty
attractive, too.

I have never seen Llantwtt Major, Cowbridge, St. Donats, or Edgewy Brewis
except in pictures. The churchyards there are filled with my ancestors.
It's
a deficit I mean to fill. -the Troll


Still a very pleasant area, I hear.

I believe Cowbridge is now a high class commuting village/town for Cardiff.
It's all right by St. Athan - used to be an RAF station where my uncle was
CO and I stayed several times!

Surreyman

a.spencer3

Re: David Cameron's Wife -- Royal Genealogy?

Legg inn av a.spencer3 » 28 sep 2006 19:47:46

"Bryn" <Scotland-the-Brave@finhall.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:l+wgppByqAHFFwQJ@finhall.demon.co.uk...
In message <iuSSg.48049$7D6.36971@newsfe2-win.ntli.net>, a.spencer3
a.spencer3@ntlworld.com> writes

"Bryn" <Scotland-the-Brave@finhall.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:512XLsAtn7GFFwLo@finhall.demon.co.uk...
In message <7lNSg.34950$TF5.29433@newsfe1-win.ntli.net>, a.spencer3
a.spencer3@ntlworld.com> writes

"hippo" <hippo@south-sudan.net> wrote in message
news:12hlnkbijl6rl98@corp.supernews.com...

"a.spencer3" wrote in message

"hippo" wrote in message

It was the same with my people except the castle was St. Donats,
held
by
the
distaff line, while the male line lived outside and tilled the
fields.
By
the 14th century they no longer lived in a mud hut:

http://www.llantwitmajorvale.co.uk/hist ... house2.htm


...but remained no more than provincial landed gentry.
Generations
before,
the family were clas clergy and believed themselves to have been
descended
from St. Iltud (born c. 480). I have got to get over there and
spend
a
few
weeks in the place I believe my people to have inhabited for at
least
400
years and maybe even since the 5th century and earlier. Maybe
this
year... -the Troll


Which brick is 1300s! :-))

I dunno. The castle was added to right up to recent times (by
Randolph
Hurst) and so was Ty Mawr, the old house, which looks mostly later
Tudor.

I've heard that the oldest part of Caerphilly below the castle was
relatively recently demolished for a supermarket or some xxxxxx
thing.
I remember the old buildings (but their dates didn't impinge in my
youth).
Can't really believe it, and don't know the facts.
My mother's family's cottage in which she first lived in a nearby
village
is
still there - but that's a mere late 1700s.

A ha, snag the cottage and live there instead of roasting in the
Spanish
sun
and being daily poisoned by rot gut rojo and rubbery octopus
tentacles. -the
Troll


Have you ever seen Welsh 1800s mining terraces in the rain!


Yes, in January. Bl Festinigog (sp), we were going to move there, but
in June we noticed that the nettles and the foxgloves where about 6
inches high and in full flower...

And there is a huge rock poised over the village, held in place by a
single rusting chain.

The people were lovely...


Well, that's North Wales and slate - different planet! Great scenery
though - an uncle had a farm just outside Capel Curig up there.

Its stunning but can be very strange to look at as the light goes..


Especially if you're still only half-way up Tryfan!

Surreyman

D. Spencer Hines

Re: John Isaac Bates [1598-1666] Gateway Ancestor From Kent

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 28 sep 2006 20:01:41

Followup To My Last:

Further, Julian Richards and I may not be related either.

Julian has said he is related to Fletcher Christian [1764-1793] Master's
Mate of HMS Bounty.

Hines is also related to Fletcher Christian. Neither Hines nor Richards is
a descendant of Fletcher Christian.

But that doesn't necessarily mean Hines and Richards are related because
THEY must have Common Ancestors to be related -- not just both be related to
Fletcher Christian.

However, with respect to John Isaac Bates [1598-1666], an English emigrant
from Kent to Virginia circa 1623, the postulated situation is quite
different.

Spencer Hines is a descendant of John Isaac Bates, a 10th great-grandson.

Grey Satterfield says his wife told him he is ALSO descended from John Isaac
Bates -- she was the genealogist in the family.

Sadly, Grey's wife is deceased, God Bless Her, and Grey seems to have lost
or destroyed her papers -- so he doesn't seem to be able to tell us HOW he
descends from John Isaac Bates -- if, in truth, he does.

But, if Grey IS a descendant of John Isaac Bates then he and Spencer ARE
related -- because they have a Common Ancestor.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Vires et Honor

D. Spencer Hines

Re: John Isaac Bates [1598-1666] Gateway Ancestor From Kent

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 28 sep 2006 20:10:39

Well, that then makes you some sort of unfeasibly [sic] distant relative
of mine too.
--
Julian Richards

It IS a small world. "The Cousins," indeed. :)

Grey Satterfield
-------------------------------------------------------------------


Hilarious!

Grey doesn't understand Genealogical Relationships either.

See my previous posts in this thread.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Bryn

Re: David Cameron's Wife -- Royal Genealogy?

Legg inn av Bryn » 28 sep 2006 20:24:38

In message <mNUSg.31681$0i4.2668@newsfe4-win.ntli.net>, a.spencer3
<a.spencer3@ntlworld.com> writes
"Bryn" <Scotland-the-Brave@finhall.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:l+wgppByqAHFFwQJ@finhall.demon.co.uk...
In message <iuSSg.48049$7D6.36971@newsfe2-win.ntli.net>, a.spencer3
a.spencer3@ntlworld.com> writes

"Bryn" <Scotland-the-Brave@finhall.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:512XLsAtn7GFFwLo@finhall.demon.co.uk...
In message <7lNSg.34950$TF5.29433@newsfe1-win.ntli.net>, a.spencer3
a.spencer3@ntlworld.com> writes

"hippo" <hippo@south-sudan.net> wrote in message
news:12hlnkbijl6rl98@corp.supernews.com...

"a.spencer3" wrote in message

"hippo" wrote in message

It was the same with my people except the castle was St. Donats,
held
by
the
distaff line, while the male line lived outside and tilled the
fields.
By
the 14th century they no longer lived in a mud hut:

http://www.llantwitmajorvale.co.uk/hist ... house2.htm


...but remained no more than provincial landed gentry.
Generations
before,
the family were clas clergy and believed themselves to have been
descended
from St. Iltud (born c. 480). I have got to get over there and
spend
a
few
weeks in the place I believe my people to have inhabited for at
least
400
years and maybe even since the 5th century and earlier. Maybe
this
year... -the Troll


Which brick is 1300s! :-))

I dunno. The castle was added to right up to recent times (by
Randolph
Hurst) and so was Ty Mawr, the old house, which looks mostly later
Tudor.

I've heard that the oldest part of Caerphilly below the castle was
relatively recently demolished for a supermarket or some xxxxxx
thing.
I remember the old buildings (but their dates didn't impinge in my
youth).
Can't really believe it, and don't know the facts.
My mother's family's cottage in which she first lived in a nearby
village
is
still there - but that's a mere late 1700s.

A ha, snag the cottage and live there instead of roasting in the
Spanish
sun
and being daily poisoned by rot gut rojo and rubbery octopus
tentacles. -the
Troll


Have you ever seen Welsh 1800s mining terraces in the rain!


Yes, in January. Bl Festinigog (sp), we were going to move there, but
in June we noticed that the nettles and the foxgloves where about 6
inches high and in full flower...

And there is a huge rock poised over the village, held in place by a
single rusting chain.

The people were lovely...


Well, that's North Wales and slate - different planet! Great scenery
though - an uncle had a farm just outside Capel Curig up there.

Its stunning but can be very strange to look at as the light goes..


Especially if you're still only half-way up Tryfan!


Or at the top end of Beddgelert...


--
Bryn

My wife has ruined my 'elf!
I think she sat on him..

D. Spencer Hines

Re: John Isaac Bates [1598-1666] Gateway Ancestor From Kent

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 28 sep 2006 20:28:59

Stephen Tarleton [1637-1687], who married Susannah Bates, the daughter of
John Isaac Bates, was quite a pistol.

Do you descend from him, Grey?

Stephen apparently lived a very colorful life, to the detriment of his
reputation, before his marriage to Susannah Bates. In 1659 he was 22 years
old and living in York County, Virginia, where he was an appraiser of
tobacco. He was required to appear in court to answer the deposition of
Mary Gunnell, a servant girl, on 12 April 1660. Mary stated that "Stephen
Torlington got her with child and did use her several times by day and also
by night in her master's hall and also in other places."

Susannah is not mentioned in her father's will. Perhaps he disapproved of
the marriage.

Stephen was living in New Kent County by 1663. He patented 394 acres there.

In 1676, he took part in Bacon's Rebellion against Governor Berkeley. This
Rebellion was led by Nathaniel Bacon (1647-1676) who was an advocate of
unlimited expansion for the European settlers, at the expense of the Native
American Indians.

Bacon died and the group broke apart. Several of the leading instigators
were executed, but Stephen Tarleton petitioned for mercy and a pardon, and
was exonerated. Hmmmm... How could Stephen have been totally "exonerated"
if he admitted guilt, sought mercy and the granting of a pardon? A pardon
is not necessarily an exoneration.

Stephen appears to have still been a pistol however. In 1682 he was part of
the Blissland Parish Grievances, a protest directly to the Crown against the
alleged oppression of the Governor. Additionally, in May 1682 he was taken
into the custody of the Sheriff of York County for "words that greatly
encouraged an uprising in which many tobacco, plants were destroyed in
protest against increased taxes.

Tobacco plants, crops, and stored stockpiles were destroyed by the planters
rather than selling them to the crown's buyers. This uprising was the last
of its kind until the events which led to the American Revolution.
-----------------------------

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

And A Raspberry To King George III

D. Spencer Hines

Re: John Isaac Bates [1598-1666] Gateway Ancestor From Kent

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 28 sep 2006 20:47:18

Recte:

Stephen Tarleton [1637-1687], who married Susannah Bates, the daughter of
John Isaac Bates, was quite a pistol.

Do you descend from him, Grey?

Stephen apparently lived a very colorful life, to the detriment of his
reputation, before his marriage to Susannah Bates. In 1659 he was 22 years
old and living in York County, Virginia, where he was an appraiser of
tobacco. He was required to appear in court to answer the deposition of
Mary Gunnell, a servant girl, on 12 April 1660. Mary stated that "Stephen
Torlington got her with child and did use her several times by day and also
by night in her master's hall and also in other places."

Susannah is not mentioned in her father's will. Perhaps he disapproved of
the marriage.

Stephen was living in New Kent County by 1663. He patented 394 acres there.

In 1676, he took part in Bacon's Rebellion against Governor Berkeley. This
Rebellion was led by Nathaniel Bacon (1647-1676) who was an advocate of
unlimited expansion for the European settlers, at the expense of the Native
American Indians.

Bacon died and the group broke apart. Several of the leading instigators
were executed, but Stephen Tarleton petitioned for mercy and a pardon, and
was exonerated. Hmmmm... How could Stephen have been totally "exonerated"
if he admitted guilt, sought mercy and the granting of a pardon? A pardon
is not necessarily an exoneration.

Stephen appears to have still been a pistol however. In 1682 he was part of
the Blissland Parish Grievances, a protest directly to the Crown against the
alleged oppression of the Governor. Additionally, in May 1682 he was taken
into the custody of the Sheriff of York County for "words that greatly
encouraged an uprising in which many tobacco plants were destroyed in
protest against increased taxes.

Tobacco plants, crops, and stored stockpiles were destroyed by the planters
rather than selling them to the crown's buyers. This uprising was
reportedly the last of its kind until the events which led to the American
Revolution.
-----------------------------

Yes, British East India Company tea in Boston harbor is not American tobacco
in Virginia.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

And A Raspberry To King George III

Julian Richards

Re: John Isaac Bates [1598-1666] Gateway Ancestor From Kent

Legg inn av Julian Richards » 28 sep 2006 20:52:38

On Thu, 28 Sep 2006 20:10:39 +0100, "D. Spencer Hines"
<poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote:

Well, that then makes you some sort of unfeasibly [sic] distant relative
of mine too.
--
Julian Richards

It IS a small world. "The Cousins," indeed. :)

Piggy backing DSH as the message from Grey was missed. I am taking
the idea of a connection between us in that it is possible to draw a
family tree that has all of us in it. Any of the connections are
extremely tenuous at best. Our colonial cousins are very keen on this
type of geneaology. Thus we have:

French writer Paul Bourget wrote, "Life can never be entirely dull to
an American. When he has nothing else to do he can always spend a few
years trying to discover who his grandfather was."

Mark Twain replied:

"Right, your Excellency. But I reckon a Frenchman's got a little
standby for a dull time too; he can turn in and see if he can find out
who his father was."

Grey Satterfield
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Hilarious!

Grey doesn't understand Genealogical Relationships either.

See my previous posts in this thread.

The fact is that no one actually cares that much.
--

Julian Richards

http://www.richardsuk.f9.co.uk
Website of "Robot Wars" middleweight "Broadsword IV"

THIS MESSAGE WAS POSTED FROM SOC.HISTORY.MEDIEVAL

Leticia Cluff

Re: John Isaac Bates [1598-1666] Gateway Ancestor From Kent

Legg inn av Leticia Cluff » 28 sep 2006 20:59:24

On Thu, 28 Sep 2006 20:10:39 +0100, "D. Spencer Hines"
<poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote:

Well, that then makes you some sort of unfeasibly [sic] distant relative
of mine too.
--
Julian Richards

It IS a small world. "The Cousins," indeed. :)

Grey Satterfield
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Hilarious!


http://www.bbc.co.uk/birmingham/stage/2 ... 70x165.jpg
http://www.gamedaze.com/Board-Games/Pla ... 102707.jpg
http://www.phil-fak.uni-duesseldorf.de/ ... arius.html
http://www.kolumbus.fi/timo.kujala/hilarius.jpg
http://www.tk-vertrieb.de/mat/log_hilar_1.jpg


Tish
http://www.leticia-amazonas.gov.co/sitio.shtml

hippo

Re: David Cameron's Wife -- Royal Genealogy?

Legg inn av hippo » 28 sep 2006 20:59:33

"a.spencer3" wrote in message

[.]

Still a very pleasant area, I hear.
I believe Cowbridge is now a high class commuting village/town for
Cardiff.
It's all right by St. Athan - used to be an RAF station where my uncle was
CO and I stayed several times!

I don't care much for the high class part, but it might save the old core
villages. -the Troll

D. Spencer Hines

Re: John Isaac Bates [1598-1666] Gateway Ancestor From Kent

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 28 sep 2006 21:01:36

Two folks are not genealogically RELATED by blood ties unless they have at
least one Common Ancestor.

'Nuff Said.

DSH

Stewart Baldwin

Re: Otgiva of Luxemburg

Legg inn av Stewart Baldwin » 28 sep 2006 21:45:17

On 25 Sep 2006 13:02:41 -0700, "Birds" <h.vogels6@chello.nl> wrote:

Eduard Hlawitschka, "War Graf Siegfried I. von Luxemburg ein Sohn
Herzog Giselberts van Lothringen? Ein Diskussionsbeitrag", in:
Forschungsbeiträge der Geisteswissenschaftlichen Klasse. Schriften der
Sudetendeutschen Akademie der Wisschaften und Künste, Band 23,
München 2002, wrote a nice demolition of an theory proposed by René
Klein in 1998. This theory was previously discussed here on the
newsgroup.

I was also unconvinced by Klein's arguments, but I have not yet seen
the above article by Hlawitschka. I would be especially interested in
knowing if Hlawitschka would still make Siegfried a son of Wigerich.
In particular, does he discuss the statement in the Life of Abbot John
of Gorze that bishop Adalbero I of Metz has several brothers "ex
matre" ("..., quod fratres ei [i.e., of bishop Adalbero] plures ex
matre erant, ..." Vita Iohannis Gorziensis, c. 110, MGH SS 4: 368)?
From this statement, I have a hard time believing that all of
Cunigunde's children were by Wigerich.

Stewart Baldwin

D. Spencer Hines

Re: John Isaac Bates [1598-1666] Gateway Ancestor From Kent

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 28 sep 2006 22:02:49

Hilarious!

The canard about "six degrees of separation" refers to acquaintance NOT
genealogy.

DSH

"Grey Satterfield" <gsatterfield@cox.net> wrote in message
news:C141A1BF.337C0%gsatterfield@cox.net...

On 9/28/06 2:42 PM, in article ra9oh2t9e2t0jbvvdrh28r0prrek6n0799@4ax.com,
"Julian Richards" <julian@spam-me-not.co.uk> wrote:

On Thu, 28 Sep 2006 13:45:56 -0500, Grey Satterfield
gsatterfield@cox.net> wrote:

Indeed, Spencer is known for constantly changing definitions, which are
consistent only in that they are consistently self-serving. Anyway,
welcome
to the "Pogue Club." :)

A club even less select than the DSH "related to" club.
--

Julian Richards

Maybe so but probably not by many. There were just not that many English
folks alive in 1624 in addition to the recently transplanted John Bates
and
far fewer than that in "The Colonies." What is it about "six degrees of
separation"?

Grey Satterfield

celia

Re: David Cameron's Wife -- Royal Genealogy?

Legg inn av celia » 28 sep 2006 22:44:34

hippo wrote:
"a.spencer3" wrote in message

"hippo" wrote in message

Oh Gawd, the Beauforts were our local Lords of the Manor in 1437! You
was
probably conceived in my front garden!
Look, just 'cos my Greats clobbered your Greats in Glamorgan way back,
there's no need to get all (or more) bitter & twisted.
You might like the following - a new one for me accidently Googled up
recently.
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/GLA/Lewis1833Gla.html

Trust me, my people were far removed from the majesty of the Beauforts.
My
relation is through the bastard daughter of the good Cardinal, himself a
bastard, who was married off to a provincial knight as far away from the
seats of power as possible. Glamorganshire in those days was not at the
forefront of fashion. My family was native Welsh in the paternal line,
although gentrified early on. -the Troll


And, of course, we had both.
It's not impossible that my Lewises were in their mudhuts below the
Spencers' Caerphilly Castle - a family joke that continues to this day!

It was the same with my people except the castle was St. Donats, held by the
distaff line, while the male line lived outside and tilled the fields. By
the 14th century they no longer lived in a mud hut:

http://www.llantwitmajorvale.co.uk/hist ... house2.htm


...but remained no more than provincial landed gentry. Generations before,
the family were clas clergy and believed themselves to have been descended
from St. Iltud (born c. 480). I have got to get over there and spend a few
weeks in the place I believe my people to have inhabited for at least 400
years and maybe even since the 5th century and earlier. Maybe this
year... -the Troll

Meet you May Eve at Tinkinswood burial chamber?
Play roulette with fate, madness, death, or the gift
of poetry will result. (Well according to folklore.)

Celia (Welsh descent, castle Shropshire, so that
doesn't quite count)

Martin

Re: David Cameron's Wife -- Royal Genealogy?

Legg inn av Martin » 28 sep 2006 22:51:46

"a.spencer3" <a.spencer3@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:e3ySg.41874$8V4.35001@newsfe5-win.ntli.net...
"D. Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:NSxSg.495$B16.4837@eagle.america.net...
Yes, I've been saying for years that Horsellman Rarebit is obviously a
crabbed "Little Englander" himself.

DSH


Do you have any idea at all what we're discussing?

Twit.

Virginia was enjoyed!

And no longer named that afterward I daresay?

The local Lords of the Manor (in my manor) were connected with Pembrokeshire - a
bunch of Herberts. Despite Warwick the Kingmaker disposing of one particularly
devious and unpleasant one (in the usual fashion, i.e. disconnection of head
from body), they reigned here for ages - until one particular blunderer chose
the wrong side in the Civil War...

Now we have the Local Council, another right bunch of herberts, and far more
difficult to get rid of alas. Oh, for the good old days...
Cheers
Martin

Gjest

Re: Thomas Wombwell / Catherine Ingleby

Legg inn av Gjest » 28 sep 2006 23:35:03

In a message dated 9/27/06 10:14:26 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
jthiggins@sbcglobal.net writes:

<< The parents of Sir John Fortescue of Ponsbourne, who mar. Alice Boleyn,
were Sir Richard Fortescue of Ponsbourne (d. 1455, battle of St. Albans) and
Agnes, dau. of Sir Walter Windsor of Devon.

Source: Lord Clermont's "History of the Family of Fortescue >>


Thanks John
With your prompting I was able to find this in the archives
http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GE ... 0898728604

which gives a number of other generations as well

Will

hippo

Re: David Cameron's Wife -- Royal Genealogy?

Legg inn av hippo » 29 sep 2006 02:31:53

"celia" wrote in message

hippo wrote:

.....I have got to get over there and spend a few
weeks in the place I believe my people to have inhabited for at least 400
years and maybe even since the 5th century and earlier. Maybe this
year... -the Troll

Meet you May Eve at Tinkinswood burial chamber?
Play roulette with fate, madness, death, or the gift
of poetry will result. (Well according to folklore.)

Celia (Welsh descent, castle Shropshire, so that
doesn't quite count)

Take the risk for the gift would ye? It's only one I haven't seen and it
will come soon enough, thanks. -the Troll

Birds

Re: Otgiva of Luxemburg

Legg inn av Birds » 29 sep 2006 07:51:00

Yes, Hlawitschka sees Siegfried as the youngest son of Wigerich and
Kunigunde. The eldest son Adalbero became bishop op Metz in 929.
Therefore (Hlawitschka) he must have been born in the period 900-905
(most likely 905). In note 48 we see that K. Wichmann dates his birth
around 900, H. Renn ca. 904 and M. Parisse about 902-905.

Father Wigerich is last seen in 916. He is not present at court in 919
so the consensus is that he must have died between 916-919. This is not
quite necessairy as he might have been ill in 919 and thus detained to
visit the courtday (Hoftag). Therefore he could easily have died a few
years later in 920/921.

His widow Kunigunde could have remarried in 922 with the widower
Richwin of Verdun. Richwin had a near adult son Otto from his previous
marriage. In 923 they tried to gain possesion over the property of
Wigerich and Kunigunde which led to resistance of Adalbero and the
murder of Richwin.

All in all with the result that Siegfried as son of Wigerich and
Kunigunde could have been two to three years younger then previously
was assumed. No children therefore from Kunigundes second marriage. And
no third marriage for Kunigunde.

Adalbero as eldest son was taking care of the wellfare of his younger
brothers and sisters, of whom Siegfried must have been a baby child,
maybe born around 920. That would make Siegfried around 78 at his death
in 998, a not impossible age.

Hans Vogels



Stewart Baldwin schreef:

On 25 Sep 2006 13:02:41 -0700, "Birds" <h.vogels6@chello.nl> wrote:

Eduard Hlawitschka, "War Graf Siegfried I. von Luxemburg ein Sohn
Herzog Giselberts van Lothringen? Ein Diskussionsbeitrag", in:
Forschungsbeiträge der Geisteswissenschaftlichen Klasse. Schriften der
Sudetendeutschen Akademie der Wisschaften und Künste, Band 23,
München 2002, wrote a nice demolition of an theory proposed by René
Klein in 1998. This theory was previously discussed here on the
newsgroup.

I was also unconvinced by Klein's arguments, but I have not yet seen
the above article by Hlawitschka. I would be especially interested in
knowing if Hlawitschka would still make Siegfried a son of Wigerich.
In particular, does he discuss the statement in the Life of Abbot John
of Gorze that bishop Adalbero I of Metz has several brothers "ex
matre" ("..., quod fratres ei [i.e., of bishop Adalbero] plures ex
matre erant, ..." Vita Iohannis Gorziensis, c. 110, MGH SS 4: 368)?
From this statement, I have a hard time believing that all of
Cunigunde's children were by Wigerich.

Stewart Baldwin

Douglas Richardson

Re: Sir Adam Fitz John, of Ermesthorp: Ancestor of Sir Walte

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 29 sep 2006 15:29:28

Dear Will ~

I don't beleve the Dungan family descent from the Hungerford family is
sound. As such, you might want to check the newsgroup archives for
further particulars regarding the Dungan family.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah


WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 9/25/06 10:11:25 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:

For interest's sake, the following is a list of the 17th Century New
World immigrants who descend from Sir Adam Fitz John, of Rippingale,
Lincolnshire, living 1324:

Dorothy Beresford, Humphrey Davie, Anne Humphrey, Mary Launce, Percival
Lowell, John Nelson, Thomas Owsley, Herbert Pelham, Edward Raynsford,
Mary Johanna Somerset, John Stockman, John West, George Yate.


Douglas was not Rev Thomas Dungan 1634-88 who died at Cold Spring, Bucks Co,
PA also of this descent?
Here is what I have on his connection
Rev Thomas Dungan born 1634 London son of
William Dungan 1607-1636 by his wife Frances Latham 1610-1677 she died at
Newport, RI. He was son of
Thomas Dungan, Gent of Lincoln's Inn, son of
John Dungan by his wife Margaret Forster 1555- daughter of
Walter Forster by his wife Margaret Neville 1530- son of
Unknown (to me) Forster by his wife Jane Hungerford daughter of
Sir Anthony Hungerford of Down Ampney -1558 by his second wife Dorothy Danvers
etc.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Sir Adam Fitz John, of Ermesthorp: Ancestor of Sir Walte

Legg inn av Gjest » 29 sep 2006 18:36:02

In a message dated 9/29/2006 7:41:52 AM Pacific Standard Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:

I don't beleve the Dungan family descent from the Hungerford family is
sound. As such, you might want to check the newsgroup archives for
further particulars regarding the Dungan family.


I found a few comments by Doug McDonald, but no documentation.
Otherwise online I find a few people disputing it, but can't find what their
sources are.
There's a reference to a website that is not functioning or no longer exists.
There's an extract from a genealogical article which actually says the
opposite.

I'm still looking.
Will

Gjest

Re: Kendal, Gospatric, Samlesbury

Legg inn av Gjest » 29 sep 2006 19:06:02

In a message dated 9/29/2006 9:32:29 AM Pacific Standard Time,
designeconomic@yahoo.com writes:

A
contributor on the Web claims that he was 64 years of
age 1174 - the source of that information not
revealed. If correct Gospatric's birth would have been
1110.



This however is based on zero sources. In fact it's a backward assertion.
Starting with the date of 1110 they then state he was 64 in 1174. Both
statements are based on nothing.

Will

Gjest

Re: John Isaac Bates [1598-1666] Gateway Ancestor From The C

Legg inn av Gjest » 29 sep 2006 19:42:13

You know, ribbing someone online is not nearly as entertaining to
others as you might find it. If you want to entertain yourself, do so,
but not at the expense of others.


D. Spencer Hines wrote:
Come, come, Grey -- surely you have her papers.

How do you descend from John Isaac Bates? -- Just the first generation or
two from John will do.

I've previously posted mine.

John Isaac Bates [1598-1666] is my 10th Great-Grandfather.

What is he to you?

Do you perhaps descend from Master Bates?

DSH

"Grey Satterfield" <gsatterfield@cox.net> wrote in message
news:C13EF6F8.3358F%gsatterfield@cox.net...

I don't recall how I am descended from John Bates. My late wife was a
serious genealogist and knew as much as anyone about the musty old
Satterfield family. While she explained it all to me when she found the
connection I don't remember the details. It does seem, though, that she
found a relationship between Bates and one of my 18th Century ancestors,
Bidwell Satterfield.

Gjest

Re: Complete Peerage Addition: Usage of Mautravers title

Legg inn av Gjest » 29 sep 2006 20:15:03

In a message dated 9/29/06 10:15:39 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:

<<
I find that the Mautravers title continued to be employed by various
members of the Arundel family and their descendants. The latest use I
have found of this title is a record dated 40 Elizabeth I [i.e.,
1597-1598], which item was located recently in the helpful online
National Archives Catalogue. >>

Douglas thank you for your excellent post.
On the title Mautravers see
http://www.a2a.org.uk/search/documentxs ... esheet=xsl\
A2A_com.xsl&keyword=Lord%20Mautravers&properties=0601

where they state that [Anne Dacre's grandson, a descendent of the Arundel
family] was "(styled Lord Mautravers to 1640)"

This person better known as
Henry Frederick Howard 1608-1652, Earl of /Arundel/
had married Feb 1626
Elizabeth /Stuart/ 1610-74

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Otgiva of Luxemburg

Legg inn av Gjest » 29 sep 2006 23:50:03

Dear Peter, Leo, Hans and others,
Is the name Edith
transliterated in German asa Hedwig?
Sincerely,

James W Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA

Gjest

Re: Baptismal rec. of Boston schoolmaster Philemon Pormort/

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 sep 2006 00:15:02

Dear John B,
Philemon, Phineas and Pericles were not peculiar names,
just Greek. Thomas wanted everyone to at least believe him to be an man of
much education. Consider the West / Pelham /Winslow / White cluster with their
Penelopes for starters. They could have named them Anna, Mary, Elizabeth or
Sarah, but They didn`t Penelope isn`t even found in the Bible, just as Pericles
is not. Phineas is and Philemon I am unsure of, though it had a moderate
following. I seem to recall that Bauchis and Philemon were devoted to each other,
just as Penelope was faithful to Odysseus whose name in it`s latin form Ulysses
came into use, though perhaps a bit later.
Sincerely,

James W Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA

Peter Stewart

Re: Otgiva of Luxemburg

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 30 sep 2006 00:27:36

<Jwc1870@aol.com> wrote in message news:464.7422e4b0.324eee54@aol.com...
Dear Peter, Leo, Hans and others,
Is the name Edith
transliterated in German asa Hedwig?

No, definitely not. German contemporaries wrote the unfamiliar name of Otto
the Great's wife Queen Edith as Edgid, Edit, Etheid, etc, but the name
Hadwig was well known to them, for instance from Otto's paternal
grandmother, in distinctive forms such as Hathui, Hadui(di)s, etc.

Peter Stewart

Gjest

Re: Otgiva of Luxemburg

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 sep 2006 01:45:03

Dear Peter,
Thank You.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

norenxaq

Re: Baptismal rec. of Boston schoolmaster Philemon Pormort/

Legg inn av norenxaq » 30 sep 2006 03:36:01

Penelope isn`t even found in the Bible, just as Pericles
is not. Phineas is and Philemon I am unsure of,



Philemon was the recipient of one of Paul's letters. so it is biblical

Gjest

Re: Tempest of Staynforth & kinship with Lacy of Cromwellbot

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 sep 2006 14:55:03

day, 30 September, 2006


Hello All,

The origins of the Lacys of Cromwellbotham are murky, as are
those of most English families in the 12th century, but there was
likely a near relationship to Roger de Lacy, constable of Chester
(d. 1211). Following Roger's death, there was a writ issued by
King John on 1 June 1212 for inquest into his estate: this inquest
noted among his many grants,

' Roger de Laci gave to Gilbert de Laci with Agnes,
daughter of John de Himerum in marriage, x. bovates of
land and a half, and the third part of half [a bovate]
by xxs. ' [1]

Farrer specifically identified this Gilbert as Gilbert de Lacy
of Cromwellbotham, and identified the above lands held of Roger de
Lacy as being located in Castleton, Spotland and Hundersfield, in
Rochdale, Lancashire.

The actual marriage of Gilbert de Lacy and Agnes de Hipperholme
occurred some time before 4 July 1202. A fine of that date, levied
at Doncaster, involved among other lands ' the third part of the
service of Gilbert de Lasci and Agnes his wife, of 4 bovates in
Hipperholme ' [2].

The descent from Gilbert de Lacy to the 15th century Lacys of
Cromwellbotham is not yet complete, but will be presented as it
currently stands in a followup post.

Cheers,

John *



NOTES

[1] Farrer, Lancashire Inquests, Extents and Feudal Aids,
p. 39.

[2] Ibid. The full text from Farrer, as it pertains to the lands
of Roger de Lacy, constable of Chester after 1 June 1212 [the
Great Inquest of Service under royal writ of that date]
follows. The translated text stands separately, with Farrer's
observations set between chevrons < > .


" [ The Honour of Clitheroe.]

Roger de Laci holds the fee of v. knights of the fee of
Cliderhou, which are in the hand of the King.

< Roger de Lacy, Constable of Chester, died October 1st,
1211, or nearly nine months before the taking of this
inquest. Henry de London, archdeacon of Stafford and
William de Harecurt, two of the King's clerks of the
Exchequer, appear to have acted as escheators during
the period.... >

Hugh de Eland holds iij. carucates and ij. bovates of the
same tenement for xlviijs., to be paid to the same Roger de
Lacy.

< The liberty of lordship of Rochdale was at this time
dependent on the honour of Clitheroe. It was rated at
eight carucates, reduced from the pre-conquest hidage
of two hides, the equivalent of twelve carucates, and
the assized rent or yearly service had been fixed at
6l. or 22 1/2d. for each bovate. It seems probable
that each of the four townships or vills, into which
Rochdale was divided - viz., Hundersfield, Spotland,
Butterworth, and Castleton, had been rated at two
carucates. Hugh de Eland's fee, with the addition of
six bovates given in alms by Roger de Lacy to Stanlaw
Abbey, represented one half of the whole lordship,
the service at a later period being 60s., although
stated at 48s. in this inquest. >

The same Roger gave to Roger de Flainesburch in marriage with
the daughter of Robert de Liuerseg x. bovates of land, and the half
and third part of half [a bovate] by xxs. yearly.
Roger de Thorinton and Thomas de Horbiri hold x. bovates and a
half, and the third part of half [a bovate] by xxs. yearly.
Roger de Laci gave to Gilbert de Laci with Agnes, daughter of
John de Himerum in marriage, x. bovates of land and a half, and the
third part of half [a bovate] by xxs.

< These three estates will be found by addition to represent
one moiety of the lordship, held by the yearly service of
60s. It has been supposed that this division into thirds
was due to partition between three sisters and co-heirs.
Sufficient evidence is not available to elucidate the
matter satisfactorily, but the following points are of
interest - John de Hipperholme (? a younger son of Asolf
of Osgoldcross) appears to have had issue, two, if not
three, daughters. One married Robert de Liversedge, another,
named Agnes, married Gilbert de Lacy of Cromwellbothom,
and possibly a third married another Liversedge. By fine
levied at Doncaster, on Sunday, after the Octave of the
Apostles Peter and Paul, 4 John (July 7th, 1202), William
de Horbury and Roger de Thornton, called to warrant by
Robert de Sandale, against whom Alice, relict of Henry de
Eland was claiming dower, granted to the said Alice 2
bovates in Elande, which Orm de Elande and Henry the
reeve held, the third part of the service of Robert de
Sandale in Crigleston - viz., 12s. 3 1/2d., the third
part of the service of Thomas, son of Adam, of 6 bovates
in Dewsbury, the third part of the service of Robert de
Liversedge of half a carucate in Hipperholme, the third
part of the service of Gilbert de Lasci and Agnes his wife,
of 4 bovates in Hipperholme, and the third part of the
service of Adam, son of Edusa of two bovates of land in
Northovram, to hold to Alice, of the said William and Roger
by 6s. 3d. yearly for all service (Yorks. Fines, Surtees
Soc., xciv, p. 17). Henry de Eland had held his lands of
the said Roger and William, who appear to have been the
respective fathers of Roger de Thornton and Thomas de
Horbury named in this inquest. It is probable that the
latter held the sixth part of Rochdale only for a short
time after the taking of this survey, and subsequently
resigned it to John de Lacy, Constable of Chester. For
although another Robert de Liversedge was in possession
of this sixth part in 1285, and is described as grandson
of Robert de Liversedge, named in this inquest, who
died before it was held, having enfeoffed the Abbot of
Sallay of one moiety of Whitworth (Whalley Coucher, pp.
613, 707, 726), nevertheless Robert de Flaynsburgh
confirmed this grant apparently on the very day it was
made. Therefore it appears that Robert de Liversedge
of 1285 was the successor of Roger, son of this Robert
de Liversedge. Moreover he resigned his sixth part of
Rochdale to Henry de Lacy, Earl of Lincoln, about the
year 1292, as found by inquest taken in the court of
Rochdale, on Thursday after the feast of St. Valentine,
15 Edward II. (Ibid. p. 706). The survey of Rochdale
made in 1311, after the death of the Earl, shows that,
of the families holding this lordship in 1212, only
Eland and Lacy of Cromwellbothom remained, the one
rendering 60s. for half the lordship, the other 20s.
for one-sixth. >

< The following table, mostly derived from the Coucher of
Whalley, offers a key to the tenures of Rochdale at the
date of this inquest: -

Castleton. Butterworth. Spotland. Hundersfield.

Hugh de Eland 8 bov. 8 bov. 8 bov. 8 bov.
Rob. de
Flaynesburgh, 4 " 4 " ... 2 2/3 "
Roger de }
Thornton, }
Thomas de } ... 4 " 4 " 2 2/3 "
Horbury }
Gilb. de
Lacy 4 " ... 4 " 2 2/3 " >


The aforesaid Roger de Laci gave to the monks of Stanlawe vj.
bovates of land in alms. "


* John P. Ravilious

Gjest

Re: Kendal, Gospatrick, Samlesbury

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 sep 2006 19:11:02

In a message dated 9/30/2006 9:17:47 AM Pacific Standard Time,
designeconomic@yahoo.com writes:

The purpose of my recent email was to provide
information substantiating the life span of Gospatric
(son) Orm (son) Ketel.

I am puzzled by the relevance of your response.
Perhaps you would kindly explain.


The relevance being the 1110 date is specious. He might be born 20 years
before or 20 years after for all we know. Giving an exact birthyear gives the
impression that we have any document to support it, and we don't.

Gjest

Re: Robert de Digby and Sibyl de Everingham

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 okt 2006 14:55:03

Sunday, 1 October, 2006


Hello All,

Rosie kindly has looked up the 1320 CR entry (copied below,
see note [1]), which does confirm that Sibyl was the daughter of
Sir Adam de Everingham. Taken together, it is clear that 400 marks
promised by Sir Adam to Sibyl in 1320, " of his lands and chattels
in cos. Lincoln, York and Nottingham " are connected to the
payments made to Sibyl and her husband Robert de Digby in 1327.
The releases recorded are for the manors of Westborough, co. Lincs.
and North Leverton, co. Notts. It is interesting that no mention
is made of the promised Yorkshire property(-ies).....

One descent of Sibyl de Everingham is given below. There are
of course other interesting connections of the Everingham family
(that to the Berkeleys of Dursley, for example). With some added
good fortune, further evidence of the possible Everingham ancestry
of the Digbys will come to light.

Many thanks to Rosie for finding the 1320 CR text.

Cheers,

John




Robert = Sibyl
de Tregoz I de Ewyas
of Ewyas Harold I
d.ca.1215 I
______I
I
Robert = Juliana
de Tregoz I de Cantelou
d.ca.1268 I
______I
I
John = Mabel
de Tregoz I FitzWarin
Lord Tregoz I
d. 1300 I
_________________I
I I
Sir Roger = Clarice Sibyl = Sir William
la Warre I de Tregoz I de Grandison
lst Lord I I
La Warre I I
d. 1320 I V
I
_ _ _I_________________________________
I I I
1)Clarice = Sir ADAM de John Roger
I Everingham 2nd Lord
I lst Lord La Warre
I Everingham
I d.ca. 1341
_______I__________________________________
I I I I
Adam John William SIBYL = ROBERT de
2nd Lord Digby
Everingham (m. bef 25
d. Feb 1387/8 May 1327)



NOTES

[1] R. Bevan, email of 1 October 2006 (in part):

The Close Roll entry does exist but does not mention Robert Digby
CR 1318-1322, p.242
July 2 1320, Westminster
"Adam son of Robert de Everingham acknowledges that he owes to Sibyl his
daughter, 400 marks; to be levied, in default of payment, of his lands and
chattels in cos. Lincoln, York and Nottingham. Witness: Aymer de Valence.

Cristopher Nash

Re: Robert de Digby and Sibyl de Everingham

Legg inn av Cristopher Nash » 01 okt 2006 16:35:03

John! Forgive my jumpin in here out of the blue! (or out of the
swamp, more like, of this past year's other work here in the (Y)UK &
abroad)! I'm hoping to get back into geneal succulation and maybe
this is a — hopefully not-too-abortive — skid in that direction?
we'll see!)

Looking at a collateral twig in your sketch below, I'm wondering
whether it means that you're feeling more confident than some of us
were a while ago about an Agnes who m. Thomas Bardolf (who d. 15 Dec
1328) and has sometimes been said to have been a da. of Sybil de
Tregoz and one of the contemporaneous Grandisons? And would it mean,
by the way, that you've some idea of whose grand-i-son this
particular William might be?

I'm thinking in particular of Peter Deloriol's message ——

From: PDeloriol@aol.com
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005
Subject: Re: Sir Otto Grandson

In a message dated 26/01/2005 15:10:41 GMT Standard Time,
c@windsong.u-net.com writes:

Agnes (? de Grandison), d. 11 Dec 1357, who m. Thomas Bardolf,
Ld Bardolf (b. 4 Oct 1282, supposedly Plumpton, Suss, d. 15 Dec
1328)

There is no straight answer to this one! There are several Agnes's
who might fit the bill but none that are mentioned as fitting it
exactly!
1) Agnes + after 1348 x c 1306 Sir john de Northwood, +1317.
She may well have re-married as there is much time between her
husband's death and her own......She was daughter of William Lord
Grandisson and Sybil de Tregoz
(Charriere's ms and Europaische Stammtafeln)
2) Agnes , daughter of Pierre II sire de Grandson* and Blanche de
Savoie, + before 1374, married after 1326 Pierre de la Tour
chatillon - this is the one you may think is married to Ld Bardolf
- But she was definitely married to Pierre de La Tour Chatillon -
they are one of my mnay Grandson ancestors - ther is no mention of
another marriage in any of my sources!
3) there was a bastard Grandson , Jean, living1303,1349 in England
son of theobald , sgr de St Croix, brother of Pierre II* ( above),
who had at least one child , Agnes - but there is no mention of any
marriages for this Agnes!
(sources - Louis de Charrière - les sires de Grandson)
Sorry for this!
Peter

I.e. what's new?

Yours ever — and in the hope you've forgiven (to the point of
forgetting?) my long silence?!

Cris



On 1 Oct 2006, at 13:48, Therav3@aol.com wrote:

Sunday, 1 October, 2006


Hello All,

Rosie kindly has looked up the 1320 CR entry (copied below,
see note [1]), which does confirm that Sibyl was the daughter of
Sir Adam de Everingham. Taken together, it is clear that 400 marks
promised by Sir Adam to Sibyl in 1320, " of his lands and chattels
in cos. Lincoln, York and Nottingham " are connected to the
payments made to Sibyl and her husband Robert de Digby in 1327.
The releases recorded are for the manors of Westborough, co. Lincs.
and North Leverton, co. Notts. It is interesting that no mention
is made of the promised Yorkshire property(-ies).....

One descent of Sibyl de Everingham is given below. There are
of course other interesting connections of the Everingham family
(that to the Berkeleys of Dursley, for example). With some added
good fortune, further evidence of the possible Everingham ancestry
of the Digbys will come to light.

Many thanks to Rosie for finding the 1320 CR text.

Cheers,

John




Robert = Sibyl
de Tregoz I de Ewyas
of Ewyas Harold I
d.ca.1215 I
______I
I
Robert = Juliana
de Tregoz I de Cantelou
d.ca.1268 I
______I
I
John = Mabel
de Tregoz I FitzWarin
Lord Tregoz I
d. 1300 I
_________________I
I I
Sir Roger = Clarice Sibyl = Sir William
la Warre I de Tregoz I de Grandison
lst Lord I I
La Warre I I
d. 1320 I V
I
_ _ _I_________________________________
I I I
1)Clarice = Sir ADAM de John Roger
I Everingham 2nd Lord
I lst Lord La Warre
I Everingham
I d.ca. 1341
_______I__________________________________
I I I I
Adam John William SIBYL = ROBERT de
2nd Lord Digby
Everingham (m. bef 25
d. Feb 1387/8 May 1327)



NOTES

[1] R. Bevan, email of 1 October 2006 (in part):

The Close Roll entry does exist but does not mention Robert Digby
CR 1318-1322, p.242
July 2 1320, Westminster
"Adam son of Robert de Everingham acknowledges that he owes to
Sibyl his
daughter, 400 marks; to be levied, in default of payment, of his
lands and
chattels in cos. Lincoln, York and Nottingham. Witness: Aymer de
Valence.

Gjest

Re: The Comyns after the Murder of Red John in 1306

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 okt 2006 01:26:02

Dear Doug,
Seton02 site at Stirnet claims Alexander, 1st Earl of
Huntly may have married about 1434 for his 2nd wife NN Comyn, the Fair Maid of
Moray, daughter of Thomas Comyn, 3rd of Altyre by his wife Margaret Gordon and
possibly had two daughters by her, Janet, wife of James Innes and Margaret,
wife of Hugh Rose, it stipulates however that CP doesn`t mention any such
marriage. Thomas` elder son, James Comyn, 4th of Altyre married Mary Gordon, daughter
of Alexander and granddaughter of Alexander, 1st Earl of Huntly.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

Gjest

Re: Complete Peerage Addition: Usage of Mautravers title

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 okt 2006 05:30:03

In a message dated 10/1/06 1:15:14 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
mjcar@btinternet.com writes:

<< It would seem most logical that it was his widow, Ann, Lady
Maltravers, who was referred to in the document of 40 Elizabeth, rather
than her nephew's wife the Countess of Arundel & Surrey. >>

Who was buried 10 Jan 1580/1 at Gosfield, Essex per tudorplace.com.ar

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Kendal, Gospatric, Samlesbury

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 okt 2006 05:56:02

In a message dated 10/1/06 10:15:14 AM Pacific Daylight Time, FDP527@aol.com
writes:

<< Item 2: The birth of Gospatric son of Orm was the subject of many SGM
messages in Nov 2005 and was pretty well established as 1100-1110. >>

This should read was *not*.
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Kendal, Gospatric, Samlesbury

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 okt 2006 05:57:01

In a message dated 10/1/06 10:15:14 AM Pacific Daylight Time, FDP527@aol.com
writes:

<< Item 2: The birth of Gospatric son of Orm was the subject of many SGM
messages in Nov 2005 and was pretty well established as 1100-1110. >>

There is absolutely no document whatsoever, that establishes any sort of
dating for Gospatric's birth even within a decade. Nothing. Not one. His name
appears in a record in 1150. So was he 10? 20? 30? 50? We have no idea.
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: The Comyns after the Murder of Red John in 1306

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 okt 2006 06:26:02

In a message dated 10/1/06 3:59:54 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu writes:

<<
This is interesting to me. It is claimed that the wife of
Hugh Rose, 8th of Kilravock, one of my ancestors, had as
wife one Margaret Gordon, whose mother was supposed to be
a Comyn of Altyre, and whose father was the 1st earl of
Huntly. Margaret would have been born very very roughly
1464, as she married in 1484. >>

Illegitimate?
I have that Alexander Seton Gordon, 1st Earl of Huntley had one wife
Elizabeth Crichton married before 18 Mar 1440
and she survived him.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Robert de Digby and Sibyl de Everingham

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 okt 2006 06:35:03

In a message dated 10/1/06 5:48:35 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Therav3 writes:

<< The Close Roll entry does exist but does not mention Robert Digby
CR 1318-1322, p.242
July 2 1320, Westminster
"Adam son of Robert de Everingham acknowledges that he owes to Sibyl his
daughter, 400 marks; to be levied, in default of payment, of his lands and
chattels in cos. Lincoln, York and Nottingham. Witness: Aymer de Valence. >>

Would this indicate that Sibyl was of age ?

Alex Maxwell Findlater

Re: The Comyns after the Murder of Red John in 1306

Legg inn av Alex Maxwell Findlater » 02 okt 2006 08:54:38

I had always taken that any early descent of the Altyre family was
quite conjectural. If you try to construct one, might I suggest that
reference to charters and other probative material is essential.

Douglas Richardson

Re: Kendal, Gospatric, Samlesbury

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 02 okt 2006 09:27:47

Dear Newsgroup ~

Gospatric Fitz Orm issued a charter to St. Bees Priory sometime in the
period, 1138-1157, which charter was witnessed by his first cousin,
Alan Fitz Waltheof, his brothers-in-law, William and Gilbert Engaine,
his wife Elgiva, his mother-in-law, Ebrea [de Trevers], and his three
sons, Thomas, Adam, and Robert [Reference: Register of the Priory of
St. Bees (Surtees Soc. 126) (1915): 60-61]. The charter can be dated
as being 1138-1157, as Alan Fitz Waltheof's father, Waltheof Fitz
Gospatrick, died in 1138, and William Engaine died in 1157 [References:
Sanders, English Baronies (1960): 23; Keats-Rohan, Domesday Descendants
(2002): 246]. If we assume that Gospatric Fitz Orm's sons were of
sufficient age to witness the charter, it means that Thomas his eldest
son was approximately age 20 in or before 1157, or before in or before
1137. We also know from other records that Thomas Fitz Gospatric'
son-in-law, William de Furness (or Fleming), was of age before 1164.
Given this information, it seems likely that Gospatrick Fitz Orm was
born in or before 1110.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Doug McDonald

Re: The Comyns after the Murder of Red John in 1306

Legg inn av Doug McDonald » 02 okt 2006 15:45:26

Jwc1870@aol.com wrote:
Dear Doug,
Seton02 site at Stirnet claims Alexander, 1st Earl of
Huntly may have married about 1434 for his 2nd wife NN Comyn, the Fair Maid of
Moray, daughter of Thomas Comyn, 3rd of Altyre by his wife Margaret Gordon and
possibly had two daughters by her, Janet, wife of James Innes and Margaret,
wife of Hugh Rose, it stipulates however that CP doesn`t mention any such
marriage. Thomas` elder son, James Comyn, 4th of Altyre married Mary Gordon, daughter
of Alexander and granddaughter of Alexander, 1st Earl of Huntly.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA


Yes, I am aware of those things. The problem is that I have
found no reputable evidence for this. There is no or
extremely little question that Alexander, 1st of Huntly,
actually married a Comyn: he didn't. But that does not mean
he didn't have children by one.

It is clear that at some time a herald was convinced that
this Huntly-Rose connection was valid, since the Roses of
Bellivat and their descendants to the present day, including
those in Virginia, have the tokens of Gordon of Huntly
scattered on the border of their arms.

I'd just like some reputable source, especially of the
Altyre connection.

Doug McDonald

Doug McDonald

Re: The Comyns after the Murder of Red John in 1306

Legg inn av Doug McDonald » 02 okt 2006 15:52:22

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 10/1/06 3:59:54 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu writes:


This is interesting to me. It is claimed that the wife of
Hugh Rose, 8th of Kilravock, one of my ancestors, had as
wife one Margaret Gordon, whose mother was supposed to be
a Comyn of Altyre, and whose father was the 1st earl of
Huntly. Margaret would have been born very very roughly
1464, as she married in 1484.

Illegitimate?
I have that Alexander Seton Gordon, 1st Earl of Huntley had one wife
Elizabeth Crichton married before 18 Mar 1440
and she survived him.

Will Johnson


I think that the Comyn-Huntly connect was not a marriage.
Some say "handfast". Others say mistress.

However, Huntly had an earlier wife, one Egidia Hay. See CP
and/or SP.


Doug McDonald

Gjest

Re: Kendal, Gospatric, Samlesbury

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 okt 2006 19:40:03

In a message dated 10/2/2006 1:29:43 AM Pacific Standard Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:

Gospatric Fitz Orm issued a charter to St. Bees Priory sometime in the
period, 1138-1157, which charter was witnessed by his first cousin,
Alan Fitz Waltheof, his brothers-in-law, William and Gilbert Engaine,
his wife Elgiva, his mother-in-law, Ebrea [de Trevers], and his three
sons, Thomas, Adam, and Robert


I'm going to have to *provisionally* dispute this scenario. In the recent
discussion (Nov 2005) of this very charter, there was no mention at all by
Michael Anne and an early date for Thomas, like this would require. I have to
review all my notes again, to make sure I accurately quote her, unless she is
listening.

Will

Gjest

Re: Kendal, Gospatric, Samlesbury

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 okt 2006 21:15:03

In a message dated 10/2/06 1:29:43 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:

<< Gospatric Fitz Orm issued a charter to St. Bees Priory sometime in the
period, 1138-1157, which charter was witnessed by his first cousin,
Alan Fitz Waltheof, his brothers-in-law, William and Gilbert Engaine,
his wife Elgiva, his mother-in-law, Ebrea [de Trevers], and his three
sons, Thomas, Adam, and Robert [Reference: Register of the Priory of
St. Bees (Surtees Soc. 126) (1915): 60-61]. >>

To avoid confusing the issue more, we should stick to the relationships that
the charter actually states.
And maybe you could advise us what the primary source is for making William
Engaine die in 1157 ?
Thanks
Will Johnson

Douglas Richardson

Re: Kendal, Gospatric, Samlesbury

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 02 okt 2006 21:37:19

Dear Will ~

As I stated in my earlier post, the St. Bees Priory charter dates from
the period, 1138-1157. The charter was granted by Gospatrick Fitz Orm
himself, and witnessed by his three sons, Thomas, Adam, and Robert.
On the basis of this charter, I think it is quite reasonable to say
that Gospatrick Fitz Orm was born in or before 1110, and that his son,
Thomas, was born in or before 1137.

As I recall, the editor of the published St. Bees Priory charters did
not assign a date to the charter in question. I imagine this is how
Ms. Guido made her error in chronology. Ms. Guido likewise did not
examine the chronology of Gospatrick Fitz Orm's family in succeeding
generations. If she did, she would have discovered that Thomas Fitz
Gospatrick's son-in-law, William de Furness (or Fleming), was of age
before 1164, or born in or before 1143. Conceivably this information
alone would push back the estimated birthdates I have given for
Gospatrick Fitz Orm and his son, Thomas, by at least ten years.
Regardless, I'm content to leave them as I have stated above.

If you wish to corroborate the date that I've assigned to the St. Bees
charter, I recommend that you consult the two references that I gave
you. I've listed them again below for you.

Sanders, English Baronies (1960): 23; Keats-Rohan, Domesday Descendants
(2002): 246

Good luck in your sleuthing.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 10/2/06 1:29:43 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:

Gospatric Fitz Orm issued a charter to St. Bees Priory sometime in the
period, 1138-1157, which charter was witnessed by his first cousin,
Alan Fitz Waltheof, his brothers-in-law, William and Gilbert Engaine,
his wife Elgiva, his mother-in-law, Ebrea [de Trevers], and his three
sons, Thomas, Adam, and Robert [Reference: Register of the Priory of
St. Bees (Surtees Soc. 126) (1915): 60-61].

To avoid confusing the issue more, we should stick to the relationships that
the charter actually states.
And maybe you could advise us what the primary source is for making William
Engaine die in 1157 ?
Thanks
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Kendal, Gospatric, Samlesbury

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 okt 2006 21:51:02

In a message dated 10/2/06 1:29:43 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:

<< Gospatric Fitz Orm issued a charter to St. Bees Priory sometime in the
period, 1138-1157, which charter was witnessed by his first cousin,
Alan Fitz Waltheof, his brothers-in-law, William and Gilbert Engaine,
his wife Elgiva, his mother-in-law, Ebrea [de Trevers], and his three
sons, Thomas, Adam, and Robert [Reference: Register of the Priory of
St. Bees (Surtees Soc. 126) (1915): 60-61]. >>

To ensure that we're on the same ground, I asked Michael Anne to comment and
she forwarded me the complete text (I only had a part of it), from which I
snipped the relevant potion that shows that actual way the witnesses are named:

"Gospatricus filius Orm omnibus hominibus....Testibus hiis Alano filio
Wallef, Willelmo Engaine, Gilberto fratre ejus, Roberto filio Orm, Micaele fratre
ejus, Gospatricio sacerdote de Keltona, Dolfino presbitero de Camertona,
Waltero presbitero de Witthintona, Osberto capellano ejus, Elgiva uxore ipsius
Gospatricii, Ebrea matre ejus, Ricardo Harel, Gilberto de Croftotona, Thoma
filio Gospatricii, Adam, Roberto fratribus ejus, Acca prefecto de Wirchutona,
Rogero filio Orm multisque aliis."

Will Johnson

Douglas Richardson

Re: Kendal, Gospatric, Samlesbury

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 02 okt 2006 22:37:39

Will ~

You need to read my post again.

I identified William de Furness, born in or before 1143, as the
SON-in-law to Thomas Fitz Gospatrick, not his BROTHER-in-law. William
de Furness would thus be the grandson-in-law to Gospatrick Fitz Orm.

I think any way you slice it or dice it, Gospatrick Fitz Orm was born
in or before 1110. I believe that is a very reasonable estimate of his
birth. Especially since his granddaughter was married to a man born in
or before 1143.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
< In a message dated 10/2/06 1:45:01 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
< royalancestry@msn.com writes:
<
< << If she did, she would have discovered that Thomas Fitz
< Gospatrick's son-in-law, William de Furness (or Fleming), was of age
< before 1164, or born in or before 1143. Conceivably this
information
< alone would push back the estimated birthdates >>
<
< How do you propose, whether William de Furness was of age before 1164
would
< affect the ages of his brother-in-laws exactly ?

Gjest

Re: Kendal, Gospatric, Samlesbury

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 okt 2006 22:50:03

In a message dated 10/2/06 1:45:01 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:

<< I think it is quite reasonable to say
that Gospatrick Fitz Orm was born in or before 1110, and that his son,
Thomas, was born in or before 1137. >>

There is no indication of what age the three were. Suggesting 20 for Thomas
is arbitrary.

Gjest

Re: Kendal, Gospatric, Samlesbury

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 okt 2006 22:55:04

In a message dated 10/2/06 1:45:01 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:

<< If she did, she would have discovered that Thomas Fitz
Gospatrick's son-in-law, William de Furness (or Fleming), was of age
before 1164, or born in or before 1143. Conceivably this information
alone would push back the estimated birthdates >>

How do you propose, whether William de Furness was of age before 1164 would
affect the ages of his brother-in-laws exactly ?

Gjest

Re: Kendal, Gospatric, Samlesbury

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 okt 2006 23:21:02

In a message dated 10/2/06 2:08:43 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
designeconomic@yahoo.com writes:

<< Regardless there would appear to be adequate records
to reject your contention. >>

This should instead say "no records to".
It really does not matter how many times you *state* that I'm wrong.
The primary documentation is all that matters and it does not support pinning
Gospatrick's birth to 1110 in the way you keep advocating, or even to
1105-1110 for that matter.

Gjest

Re: Complete Peerage Addition: Usage of Mautravers title

Legg inn av Gjest » 03 okt 2006 02:46:01

In a message dated 10/2/06 3:00:07 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:

<< I concur with your identification of Anne, Lady Mautravers. The record
in question dated 1597-1598 refers to the land "late of Anne, Lady
Mautravers." >>

Isn't it a little odd to be describing lands as "late" of someone who had
been dead more than a decade? That's the only part that is nagging me.
Will

Gjest

Re: Kendal, Gospatric, Samlesbury

Legg inn av Gjest » 03 okt 2006 02:47:02

In a message dated 10/2/06 2:45:05 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:

<< I think any way you slice it or dice it, Gospatrick Fitz Orm was born
in or before 1110. I believe that is a very reasonable estimate of his
birth. >>

And I'm not saying it's unreasonable. I'm saying it's unwarranted.
The records we have just do not support pinning it to 1110.
A charter that must have been writen by 1157, naming three sons as witnesses
only tells us that
1) The three sons were living, and presumably old enough to be "witness" to a
charter.

If we assume or prove what age a person must be in order to be a witness to a
charter, then we could state the minimum ages the sons must be. We cannot
state the maximum ages they must be, except that their father is living.

Michael Anne informs me that you had to be at least 14 to be a witness. I
can not comment on that. Every so often we debate this issue of "age to be a
witness" and there never seems to be any firm answer, just generalizations.

If we allow Michael Anne to be correct, and very conservatively say the boys
were 16, 15, and 14 then we only get that Gospatric FitzOrm had to be born by
1124 allowing him to be 17 himself at the birth of his eldest son.

Other than the fact that he was fined for engaging in a duel in 1176 (so
presumably he wasn't say 80 years old...) I've seen nothing else to allow us to
pin down any birthyear for him or his sons. Personally I would think a 70 year
old man engaging in a duel would be awfully hot-headed.

Will

Gjest

Re: Accord between John of Lancaster and Philippe of Burgund

Legg inn av Gjest » 03 okt 2006 02:50:02

Dear Douglas,
William III, Count of Holland and Hainault married
Jeanne de Valois and had Philippe of Hainault married Edward III, King of England
and Margaret of Holland who married as his 2nd wife, Louis IV of Bavaria,
Holy Roman Emperor
John, Duke of Lancaster married 1st Blanche of Lancaster was 1st cousin of
Albert I , Duke of Bavaria- Straubing married Margaret, daughter of Louis I,
Duke of Breig- Luben (Poland)
Henry IV, King of England married Mary de Bohun was a 2nd cousin of Margaret
of Bavaria-Straubing who married John the Fearless, Duke of Lancaster
John Plantagenet, Duke of Bedford was thus a 3rd cousin to his wife Anne of
Burgundy
(Sources Louda- Maclagan Heraldry of The Royal Families of Europe,
Genealogics.org
Other shared ancestors, Blanche D`Artois, Queen Consort of Navarre , then
Countess of Lancaster (2 lines of descent to John, Duke of Bedford), France
(through Philippe V, King of France and Isabel, Queen Consort of England)
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

Douglas Richardson

Re: Complete Peerage Addition: Usage of Mautravers title

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 03 okt 2006 03:17:01

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

< Isn't it a little odd to be describing lands as "late" of someone who
had been
<dead more than a decade?

< Will

It's important I think that we allow medieval people speak to us from
their own viewpoint, and not look at them continually through a prism
of our own modern values. To do this, one has to spend time in the
original records. Then and only then does the medieval viewpoint
become more apparent to our modern eyes and sensibilities.

Is it odd that Lady Mautravers was describe as the "late" land owner
when she had been dead a decade? In medieval records, not at all.

DR

Douglas Richardson

Re: Accord between John of Lancaster and Philippe of Burgund

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 03 okt 2006 03:20:37

Dear James ~

Thanks for taking the time and trouble to ferret this information out.
Much appreciated.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Jwc1870@aol.com wrote:
< Dear Douglas,
< William III, Count of Holland and Hainault
married
< Jeanne de Valois and had Philippe of Hainault married Edward III,
King of England
< and Margaret of Holland who married as his 2nd wife, Louis IV of
Bavaria,
< Holy Roman Emperor
< John, Duke of Lancaster married 1st Blanche of Lancaster was 1st
cousin of
< Albert I , Duke of Bavaria- Straubing married Margaret, daughter of
Louis I,
< Duke of Breig- Luben (Poland)
< Henry IV, King of England married Mary de Bohun was a 2nd cousin of
Margaret
< of Bavaria-Straubing who married John the Fearless, Duke of Lancaster
< John Plantagenet, Duke of Bedford was thus a 3rd cousin to his wife
Anne of
< Burgundy
< (Sources Louda- Maclagan Heraldry of The Royal Families of Europe,
< Genealogics.org
< Other shared ancestors, Blanche D`Artois, Queen Consort of Navarre ,
then
< Countess of Lancaster (2 lines of descent to John, Duke of Bedford),
France
< (through Philippe V, King of France and Isabel, Queen Consort of
England)
< Sincerely,
< James W Cummings
< Dixmont, Maine USA

Douglas Richardson

Re: Kendal, Gospatric, Samlesbury

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 03 okt 2006 03:57:19

My comments are interspersed below. DR

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

< And I'm not saying it's unreasonable. I'm saying it's unwarranted.

Someone finds a problem with Will's chronology and he screams
"unwarranted." Mmmm ....

< The records we have just do not support pinning it to 1110.

Read my post again then. Maybe the truth will dawn on you eventually.

< A charter that must have been writen by 1157, naming three sons as
witnesses
< only tells us that
< 1) The three sons were living, and presumably old enough to be
"witness" to a
< charter. Michael Anne informs me that you had to be at least 14 to
be a witness. I
< can not comment on that. Every so often we debate this issue of "age
to be a
< witness" and there never seems to be any firm answer, just
generalizations.

I think we can generally assume that children were at least 14 when
they served as witnesses to their father's charters. That my
impression at least after reading thousands of English medieval
charters. This means that the youngest of Gospatrick Fitz Orm's three
sons was born in or before 1143. That's the end limit of his possible
birth, not an approximate date of birth. He could have been born many
years before that date .... and probably was. I'd shove his estimated
birthdate back at least 5 years. Then subtract another ten to get to
his older brother, Thomas' date of birth. That gives you 1127 for a
date of birth for Thomas Fitz Gospatrick. And that's reasonable.
Particularly when we know Thomas had a son-in-law, William de Furness,
who was born in or before 1143. I know ... don't tell me ... it's
unwarranted that William de Furness should be born as early as 1143.
Well, don't let the unvarnished facts get in the way of your
chronology, Will.

If we allow Michael Anne to be correct, and very conservatively say the boys
were 16, 15, and 14 then we only get that Gospatric FitzOrm had to be born by
1124 allowing him to be 17 himself at the birth of his eldest son.

We need to be reasonable in our estimates, not skew the data, Will.
You're skewing the data.

Other than the fact that he was fined for engaging in a duel in 1176 (so
presumably he wasn't say 80 years old...) I've seen nothing else to allow us to
pin down any birthyear for him or his sons. Personally I would think a 70 year
old man engaging in a duel would be awfully hot-headed.

I know this sounds like an episode of the hit TV series CSI, but it's
important that we let the medieval records (and the dead) speak for
themselves. What you or I think of the people of the medieval period
and their value system is utterly and completely immaterial. When
we're ready to listen, they're ready to speak to us.

Will

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Gjest

Re: Dowrish/Fulford/Courtenay - (was RE: Sir Adam Fitz John,

Legg inn av Gjest » 03 okt 2006 04:00:03

In a message dated 10/2/06 4:30:02 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:

<< These generations are very short, but not impossible, especially in
view of the fact that Alice Fulford was still living after her
grandson, Thomas Dowrish the younger, came of age. That's a good
indication that you have short generations in this family. >>

We don't know that Alice is the grandmother of Thomas.
In fact, the fact that he doesn't specify that might be relevant.
Will

Douglas Richardson

Re: Dowrish/Fulford/Courtenay - (was RE: Sir Adam Fitz John,

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 03 okt 2006 04:02:40

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

< We don't know that Alice is the grandmother of Thomas.
< In fact, the fact that he doesn't specify that might be relevant.
< Will

That's why I've suggested that Mr. Bradley get a copy of the original
visitation records for these families. The visitation records should
show the correct descent. And, for good measure, Mr. Bradley should
also get a copy of the three Chancery suits I provided him, especially
the one between Alice Coterell and her alleged grandson, Thomas
Dowrish.

DR

Gjest

Re: Dowrish/Fulford/Courtenay - (was RE: Sir Adam Fitz John,

Legg inn av Gjest » 03 okt 2006 05:15:03

Speaking of Humphrey Fulford and his wife Florence Bonville, I had had her
parents as John Bonville and Catherine Wingfield but I really didn't know where
this John fit with the other Bonvilles.

Today after reading this message, I went looking for a way to identify this
John Bonville and found it.

Will Johnson
-----------------------------------
Devon Record Office: Petre [123M/TB1 - 123M/Z6]
PETRE
Catalogue Ref. 123M
Creator(s): Petre family of Writtle and Ingatestone Hall, Essex

EARLY TITLE DEEDS
BONVILLE
General

FILE [no title] - ref. 123M/TB513-514 - date: [1493]
[from Scope and Content] To hold to John and Katherine and male issue in
default remainder to Florence wife of Humfrey Fulford esq. and elder daughter of
John Bonevyle and Katherine and heirs of her body, in default remainder to
Elizabeth wife of Thomas West Knight younger daughter of John and Katherine and
heirs of her body, in default ½ properties to right heirs male of body of
Katherine late wife of John Wyke and ½ to right heirs male of body of Elizabeth late
wife of Thomas Carew, in default to the right heirs to William Bonevyle
knight father of Katherine Wyke and Elizabeth Carew and their heirs.
--------------------------
Devon Record Office: Petre [123M/TB1 - 123M/Z6]
PETRE
Catalogue Ref. 123M
Creator(s): Petre family of Writtle and Ingatestone Hall, Essex

EARLY TITLE DEEDS
BONVILLE
General
Arbitration of 1505

FILE [no title] - ref. 123M/TB519 - date: [1502]
[from Scope and Content] Thomas West knight and Humfrey Fulford knight to
Cecilia Marchioness of Dorset.

FILE [no title] - ref. 123M/TB520 - date: [1505]
[from Scope and Content] Henry Stafford knight and Cecilia Marchioness of
Dorset his wife to Thomas West knight and Humfrey Fulford knight.

FILE [no title] - ref. 123M/TB521 - date: [1505]
[from Scope and Content] Reciting that there has been strife between Harry
lord Stafford knight and Cecill Marchioness of Dorset his wife cousin and heir
to Sir William Bonvyle knight, daughter of William son of William son of
William lord Bonvyle son of John son of the said William Bonvyle knight and also
cousin and heir to William late lord Bonvyle on the one part and sir Thomas West
knight and Elizabeth his wife and Sir Humfrey Fulford knight and Florence his
wife, daughters and heirs to John Bonvyle esq. late deceased ie. daughters of
the said John Son of Thomas and (sic) younger brother to the said William lord
Bonvyle on the other part
[from Scope and Content] 1. moneys received as rents from the premises by
John Takill of Honyton, rents not paid or received by the lord Marquis late
husband to the lady, to be divided between the parties ½ to Stafford and Cecill, ½
to Thomas West and Humfrey Fulford.

Gjest

Re: Kendal, Gospatric, Samlesbury

Legg inn av Gjest » 03 okt 2006 05:30:03

In a message dated 10/2/06 7:59:48 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:

<< We need to be reasonable in our estimates, not skew the data, Will.
You're skewing the data. >>

And I think you're forcing it to fit for another reason, which I think those
we've been keeping track know. I'm using what the record actually says,
you're adding things it doesn't say.

Alex Maxwell Findlater

Re: Kendal, Gospatric, Samlesbury

Legg inn av Alex Maxwell Findlater » 03 okt 2006 09:53:28

I think that the order of the witnesses is pertinent. The three sons
of Gospatric might have been expected to appear at the beginning of the
witness list, as having a direct interest in the mortification, whereas
they are quite close to the end. I would suggest, respectfully if that
is necessary, that this would perhaps indicate that they were not of
age, priority being allowed to those who were.

Svar

Gå tilbake til «soc.genealogy.medieval»