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Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: A tight chronology for Agnes (Bulstrode) Brudenell

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 18 sep 2006 23:54:33

In message of 18 Sep, WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 9/18/06 2:40:32 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
mjcar@btinternet.com writes:

Dr Charles Croke, son of the latter couple was Rector of Amersham,
Bucks, until he was ejected during the Civil War for refusing to give
up using the Prayer Book; he died in Ireland before the Restoration.

Thank you. He has a DNB entry as well and they add
1) Third Son
2) Student of Christ Church, Oxford in 1604 (thus a hint to his age)

Here's another gotcha: Student's at Ch Ch are lecturers in any other
language and, even, professors in American-English.


--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/

alden@mindspring.com

Re: A Domesday Descent: Hay of Aughton, and of Spaldington

Legg inn av alden@mindspring.com » 19 sep 2006 00:36:26

Hi John

I am curious to know where one can find the Hay of Aughton descent. I
am not familiar with it. Haye of Spaldington as you have posted online
is more obvious but still contains gaps.

Doug

Gjest

Re: A tight chronology for Agnes (Bulstrode) Brudenell

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 sep 2006 00:46:02

In a message dated 9/18/06 2:40:32 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
mjcar@btinternet.com writes:

<< Dr Charles Croke, son of the latter couple was Rector of Amersham,
Bucks, until he was ejected during the Civil War for refusing to give
up using the Prayer Book; he died in Ireland before the Restoration. >>

Thank you. He has a DNB entry as well and they add
1) Third Son
2) Student of Christ Church, Oxford in 1604 (thus a hint to his age)
3) died 10 Apr 1657 at Carlow [I assume this is in Ireland]

They don't mention any spouse or children for him, but the fourth brother
Unton Croke is mentioned who married an heiress Anne Hore dau of Richard Hore and
had aother Unton Croke "barrister of the Inner Temple in 1653"

Will Johnson

John P. Ravilious

Re: A Domesday Descent: Hay of Aughton, and of Spaldington

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 19 sep 2006 00:56:58

Dear Doug,

I've not seen the Aughton pedigree assembled to date; that is
(hopefully) one of the end results of the current effort.

Cheers,

John


alden@mindspring.com wrote:
Hi John

I am curious to know where one can find the Hay of Aughton descent. I
am not familiar with it. Haye of Spaldington as you have posted online
is more obvious but still contains gaps.

Doug

Gjest

Re: Marriage of Robert Bankworth + Mary Busbridge

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 sep 2006 01:05:05

Is Margaret Reeves, wife of Francis West, Deputy Governor of /Virginia/
1627-9 in your database of the Reve family ?

Thanks
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: A Domesday Descent: Hay of Aughton, and of Spaldington

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 sep 2006 01:50:03

Monday, 18 September, 2006


Dear Tim, Doug, et al.,

Thanks to Doug for those items from Domesday Descendants re:
the various Williams (fitz Anschetil/Anketin). I agree, there
is insufficient detail at first glance to try and identify which
William is 'our' William.

With regard to the matter of the Spaldington line, Clay noted
the holdings in Spaldington of German de la Haye in 1284-5, and
said further,

' The mention of Spaldington suggests a connexion with the
family of de la Hay of that place; but this has not been
traced (E.Y.C., xii, p. 88). William son of Peter held an
interest there (ibid., no. 72). ' [1]

It is interesting in particular that there is material in
Early Yorkshire Charters indicating that William fitz Peter
(uncle of the spouses of Thomas de la Haye's children: see
first post in this thread) held an interest in Spaldington.
This is what Britton noted in his discussion (with minimal
details) of the passage of Spaldington from William fitz
Peter to the de la Hayes of Spaldington (quote also given
in first post of this thread).

The earliest record of tenure in Spaldington that I find
is that given in the IPM of Robert de Greystoke (extent dated
15 May 1254), which states that ' Sir (D'ns) Peter de la Haye
holds half a fee in Spaldington of the Barony of Mubraye, and
pays yearly 6s. 8d. That land is worth five marcs. ' [3] This
is evidently the same holding that (Sir) Peter de la Haye
(probably grandson of the 1254 tenant) held at of the Mowbray
fee at the time of Kirkby's Inquest in 1284-5, and still (if
slightly reduced in size) in 1302-3 [see note 2 below].

Should anyone have access to the details of William fitz
Peter's holding in Spaldington, that may well answer the
question as to the source of Peter de la Haye's Spaldington
lands, and will give a better idea (if not proof) as to the
validity of the relationship as set forth by Britton.

Cheers,

John




NOTES

[1] Clay, Early Yorkshire Families, p. 42, note (3), citing
Feudal Aids, vi, 45-6 and other sources (given in
quote above).
The portion of the text on p. 42 relevant to this question,
to which note (3) relates, is as follows:

' At the death of Peter de Mauley II in 1279 German Hay held
1 1/2 fees in Aughton; and in 1284-85 he was a tenant of the
Mauley fee in Spaldington, Laytham, Aughton, Huggate,
Everthorpe and North Cave <3>. '
' In 1319 Roger Hay of Aughton was a tenant of Peter de Mauley
IV....... and in an extent of lands made in 1384 after the
death of Peter de Mauley VI 14 carucates in Everthorpe, Cave,
Goodmanham, Laytham and Aughton were held by the heirs of
German del Haye be the service of a knight's fee <6>.'


[2] Kirkby's Inquest, dated 1284-5

Wapentake of Harthill, East Riding (p. 83):

' Spaldington. Item idue Petrus [de Mauley] habet in
Spaldington iij car. et j bov. et di. in feodo; unde
Russell (sic), Walterus Bathell, et haer' Johannis
del Hay tenent totum de Germano le Hay, et Germanus
le Hay del Maulay. '

Knights' Fees in Yorkshire, dated 1302-3:

Spaldington (p. 252):

' De feodo de Moubrai iiij car. terrae vij bov. di.
Osbertus de Spaldington tenet j car ij bov. di.,
Custancia de la Haie iiij bov., Philippus de la Haie
di. car., Petrus de la Haie residuum, - unde xviij
car. terrae faciunt feod.
De feodo de Mortuo Mari iij car. terrae j bov.
Rogerus de Spaldington tenet ij car. di. j bov.,
Osbertus de Spaldington di. car., - under xvj faciunt
feod.
De feodo de Malo Lacu ij car. et vj bov.
Petrus de la Haie tenet di. car., Osbertus de
Spaldington di. car., Johannes Malurer v bov., Johannes
filius Thomae vj bov., haeredes Walteri le Bacheler
iiij bov., - under xvj faciunt feod. '


[3] William Brown, ed., Yorkshire Inquisitions, I:37.


* John P. Ravilious

alden@mindspring.com

Re: Parents of Thomas Rotherham, Archbishop of York +1500

Legg inn av alden@mindspring.com » 19 sep 2006 02:05:08

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
I can't seem to find an Anthony Lord Grey of Ruthyn. I have seen her
called a daughter of Sir John Grey, 8th Baron Grey of Wilton but I can't find the
ref. at the moment.

Anthony, Lord Grey of Ruthvyn d between 15 May and 26 Jun 1480 after marrying
Joan Widville dau of the Earl Rivers by his wife Jacquetta, Duchess of Bedford

Will Johnson

Hi Will

But if he died 1480 (sp and vp, per CP VII: 165-6, XIV: 408) and his
father, Sir Edmund Grey was the 4th Lord and died in 1490, was not Sir
Anthony's brother George (also married to a Woodville) the 5th Lord? I
show that Sir Antony dsp.

Doug

Gjest

Re: Parents of Thomas Rotherham, Archbishop of York +1500

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 sep 2006 02:51:02

<< >I can't seem to find an Anthony Lord Grey of Ruthyn. I have seen her
called a daughter of Sir John Grey, 8th Baron Grey of Wilton but I can't find the
ref. at the moment. >>

Anthony, Lord Grey of Ruthvyn d between 15 May and 26 Jun 1480 after marrying
Joan Widville dau of the Earl Rivers by his wife Jacquetta, Duchess of Bedford

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Parents of Thomas Rotherham, Archbishop of York +1500

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 sep 2006 03:35:03

In a message dated 9/18/06 6:10:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
alden@mindspring.com writes:

<< But if he died 1480 (sp and vp, per CP VII: 165-6, XIV: 408) and his
father, Sir Edmund Grey was the 4th Lord and died in 1490, was not Sir
Anthony's brother George (also married to a Woodville) the 5th Lord? I
show that Sir Antony dsp.

Doug >>

Yes I agree it speaks against putting Catharine in that slot, although
chronologically there's no problem. So either CP is wrong that Anthony d.s.p. or
Catherine isn't "dau of Anthony" as this is the only Lord Anthony available to
be her father.

Will

Gjest

Re: Another child for Jervase Gibbons and Grisell Roberts

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 sep 2006 05:13:17

Following up on my posting, I find on familysearch
1) Christening of Grissell Gibbons dau of Jervase [also spelt Gervase, Jervis
and Jarvyce] 14 Nov 1594 Parish Church of Benenden, Kent
2) Marriage of Grissell Gibbons to John Lawrance 25 Jun 1609 Saint John,
Hackney, London
3) Marriage of Grysell Roberts to Jervase Gibbons 15 Apr 1591 Cranbrook, Kent
4) Christening of Frances Gibbons 13 Feb 1592 Parish Church of Benenden, Kent

On Ancestry I find
5) England: Canterbury - Wills Proved in the Prerogative Court of Canterbury
1595 Gibbons, Jarvis, gent., Bennenden, Rolvenden, Kent; Iden, Sussex 25 Scott

Back to familysearch and find
6) Marriage of Grissell GIBBON to George Price 14 Nov 1597 Saint John,
Hackney, London

Noting that we know what the document I posted in my previous message that
Grissell (Gibbons) Lawrence is a daughter of Gervase Gibbons and now I've found
both the christening and marriage for her. And noting that SHE was married at
Saint John. And noting that her father "Jarvis" died in 1595 of Bennenden.
COULD the 1597 marriage for "Grissell GIBBON" be her mother remarrying ?

Comments appreciated.
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Marriage of Robert Bankworth + Mary Busbridge

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 sep 2006 06:03:11

sorry, no. do you know where she was from?

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
Is Margaret Reeves, wife of Francis West, Deputy Governor of /Virginia/
1627-9 in your database of the Reve family ?

Thanks
Will Johnson

John Brandon

Re: Another child for Jervase Gibbons and Grisell Roberts

Legg inn av John Brandon » 19 sep 2006 13:47:34

COULD the 1597 marriage for "Grissell GIBBON" be her mother
remarrying ?


Yes. See the HOP sketches of Gregory Price and Sir John Poyntz
(Grissel's third husband).

Gjest

Re: Cony of Bassingbourne

Legg inn av Gjest » 20 sep 2006 03:55:03

The chrological argument starts with William Harrington of
Witham-on-the-Hill, Lincs. having a son Thomas Harrington who was a "Fellow of All Souls
College" in 1627

William Harrington and his wife Dorothy Chicheley had at least three more
children, baptised at Bourne
John 8 May 1585
Susan 13 Jun 1587
Robert 3 Feb 1588/9

William must be the eldest son and heir to his father Robert Harrington of
Witham-on-the-Hill and thus it should be fairly certain that this Robert was
born by 1550

And are not Frances, Mary and Ellen co-heirs ? That would mean that Robert
must be a son by John Harrington of Bourne's next marriage to Judith Brudenell.
So that that marriage must have occurred by 1550. Thus Rose Winter must
have died by 1550 as well.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: King Henry I's bastard daughter, ?Mabel, wife of Guillau

Legg inn av Gjest » 20 sep 2006 23:00:05

In a message dated 9/20/06 1:40:37 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
p_m_stewart@msn.com writes:

<< She entered Fontrevaud after being widowed a second time, and her
death was probably notified from there as duchess of Apulia rather than as
dame of Montmirail. >>

But Guillaume Gouet is also styled "Baron of Perche-Gouet" isn't he?
So wouldn't she be called Baroness or Countess or something like that because
of this ?

Gjest

Re: King Henry I's bastard daughter, ?Mabel, wife of Guillau

Legg inn av Gjest » 20 sep 2006 23:15:04

In a message dated 9/20/06 8:40:52 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:

<< After the death of his uncle
Henry I (King of England 1100-1135), Count Theobald was chosen as his
successor, but a coup d'état by his younger brother Stephen deprived
him of the throne. On 22 December 1135 >>

But it was Matilda who had been, during the lifetime of Henry, designated as
his heir.

Gjest

Re: Additional Royal Descents For Anne Mauleverer & Richard

Legg inn av Gjest » 21 sep 2006 00:26:02

In a message dated 9/20/06 2:49:49 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au writes:

<< > 6) Anne Conyers (d. before 1522) m. abt 1492 Sir William Mauleverer of
Wothersome (d. 1551), who had
=======Cahiers de Saint Louis Page 921 gives this Anne Conyers as not

married. There is a sources list but I cannot tell which source applies to
her. See further below

7) Robert Mauleverer (d. 1541) m. 1524 Alice Markenfield (d. 1553), and
was ancestor of Richard Saltonstall of Mass. & Anne Mauleverer of N.J.

I agree with Leo that this section, that is Robert Mauleverer as a son to
Anne Conyers and then married to Alice Markenfield and thus parents to Dorothy
Markenfield, is possibly problematic. I'd like to see better documentation on
it.

As it stands, we have a situation where a woman marries for the first time
well into her 30s if not 40s to a man at least 10 if not 20 years her junior.

If Alice Markenfield is to be the daughter of Ninian Markenfield of
Markenfield Hall, Ripon, Yorks. by his purported wife Dorothy Gascoigne who, Dorothy,
died 4 Mar 1585/6.

Ninian outlived his wife by some 27 years and I don't wonder that he may have
been married again and that Alice just might be a daughter by a later
marriage.

Again Robert Mauleverer may be a son of William's by an earlier marriage.

Will Johnson

Brad Verity

Re: Additional Royal Descents For Anne Mauleverer & Richard

Legg inn av Brad Verity » 21 sep 2006 03:48:13

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

If Alice Markenfield is to be the daughter of Ninian Markenfield of
Markenfield Hall, Ripon, Yorks. by his purported wife Dorothy Gascoigne who, Dorothy,
died 4 Mar 1585/6.

Dear Will,

The death date of Dorothy Gascoigne is not known. We do know her son
Thomas Markenfield was age 14 and more at the death of his father Sir
Ninian Markenfield in 1528, so born about 1513/14, and that Sir Ninian
received dispensation to marry his second wife Eleanor Clifford on 18
May 1526. So Dorothy Gascoigne, Dame Markenfield died at some point
between 1513 and 1526.

Ninian outlived his wife by some 27 years and I don't wonder that he may have
been married again and that Alice just might be a daughter by a later
marriage.

The only wives Sir Ninian mentions in his will, dated 1 October 1527,
is his late wife Dorothy and his living wife Eleanor. Since the
marriage settlement of Sir Ninian's daughter Alice Markenfield to
Robert Mauleverer was dated 16 October 1524 (with the provision that
they should marry by February 2nd), and Sir Ninian did not marry his
second wife Eleanor Clifford until 1526, Alice had to have been the
daughter of Sir Ninian's first wife Dorothy Gascoigne.

Dorothy was one of the younger, if not the youngest, daughter of Sir
William Gascoigne and Margaret Percy. In the Gascoigne pedigree of the
1480-1500 Visitation of the North, only two daughters (Margaret and
Eleanor) and two sons (William and Thomas) are given to the couple, yet
they apparently had three more daughters (Elizabeth, Anne and Dorothy)
who survived infancy, implying that these other girls were born after
the pedigree was drawn up. Dorothy's eldest brother, Sir William
Gascoigne, was age 18 and more in his father's IPM taken on 26 Nov.
1487, so born about 1469. Dorothy was likely born close to the end of
her father's life, in the mid-1480s.

Sir Ninian Markenfield's birthdate is difficult to determine, as is the
date of his marriage to Dorothy. He had an elder brother Thomas
Markenfield who was married to Elizabeth Scrope (she married 2ndly, by
1493, Sir Ralph FitzRandall of Spennithorne), daughter of Thomas, 5th
Lord Scrope of Masham & Elizabeth Greystoke. In the Markenfield
pedigree of the 1480-1500 Visitation of the North, Thomas is described
as dead, and neither his sister Anne or younger brother Ninian are
married (Ninian's marriage to Dorothy Gascoigne was added in by a later
hand). Anne Markenfield received licence to marry Christopher Conyers
of Sockburn (that family again) on 21 November 1487, so we know her
elder brother Thomas was dead by that date. Ninian would not have
married until he became heir after his brother's death, which is
consistent with a birthdate in the 1480s for his wife Dorothy. So Sir
Ninian was likely several (possibly as much as a dozen) years older
than his first wife, and they probably did not marry before 1500.
Dorothy's sister Anne Gascoigne, Dame Fairfax, likely close in age, had
her eldest son in about 1499.

Hope this helps clarify the chronology.

Cheers, --------Brad

Gjest

Re: Additional Royal Descents For Anne Mauleverer & Richard

Legg inn av Gjest » 21 sep 2006 07:16:02

I see what has occurred. Someone has placed her birthdate, into her death
date and added a hundred years on OneWorldTree. I'll have to update my
database.

I had mentioned to OWT some time ago that they really need to be able to
understand BEF, AFT, ABT, etc, but so far it's just not working right.

Will

Gjest

Re: Additional Royal Descents For Anne Mauleverer & Richard

Legg inn av Gjest » 21 sep 2006 07:17:02

Also see this thread
_http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2000-04/0955677849_
(http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GE ... 0955677849)

Gjest

Re: Additional Royal Descents For Anne Mauleverer & Richard

Legg inn av Gjest » 21 sep 2006 07:18:01

Also see this tree
That date 4 Mar 1485/6 seems to be used for everything, birth, death,
marriage.
Oddness.

Will

Peter Stewart

Re: King Henry I's bastard daughter, ?Mabel, wife of Guillau

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 21 sep 2006 07:50:09

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 9/20/06 1:40:37 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
p_m_stewart@msn.com writes:

She entered Fontrevaud after being widowed a second time, and her
death was probably notified from there as duchess of Apulia rather than as
dame of Montmirail.

But Guillaume Gouet is also styled "Baron of Perche-Gouet" isn't he?
So wouldn't she be called Baroness or Countess or something like that because
of this ?

The title most commonly used in Latin documents for a seigneur is
"dominus" in the 12th century - "baron" came into use later. Guillaume
Gouet IV's wife would have been called "domina" (dame) if she had not
chosen to remain "ducissa" (duchess).

Baron is not a higher title than seigneur, and definitely not
equivalent to count. The ranking of nobility then was the same as
today, only less rigid in application:

Duke, duchess (dux, ducissa)
Marquis, marchioness (marchio, marchionissa)
Count, countess (comes, comitissa)
Viscount, viscountess (vicecomes, vicecomitissa)
Seigneur, dame (dominus, domina).

Other titles used in France (such as advocate - almost obsolete by the
12th century - vidame and comtor) fitted in around seigneur in this
hierarchy. However, there could be a vast difference between the power
of some great lords who were nevertheless only seigneurs and some
others who maybe held a higher title but less land and/or wealth.

Basically the top three ranks _might_ be roughly equal in these
respects, and so _might_ the bottom three - in other words, a count
could be a very grand personage indeed, or in a few instances virtually
a nobody.

Peter Stewart

Gjest

Re: A Domesday Descent: Hay of Aughton, and of Spaldington

Legg inn av Gjest » 21 sep 2006 13:11:03

Thursday, 21 September, 2006


Hello All,

Thanks in particular to Rosie Bevan, I have been able to
reconstruct the pedigree of the de la Hayes of Spaldington. A
skeletal outline is given below, with a detailed pedigree to
follow.

This effort is by no means complete. Should anyone note
further individuals, connections or relevant documentation (after
perusing the forthcoming pedigree post), please advise.

Cheers,

John *



Ralph de la Haye
of Spaldington (fl. 1182)
I
____I__________________________
I I
Richard Philip
fl. ca. 1185-1200
I
___I_______________________________
I I
Philip = Agnes le Sir Peter
(dvp ?) Constable d. aft 12 May 1254
I
I
John
d. before 1285
I
_____________________________I___________
I I I
Peter = Cecilia John James
b. bef 7 May 1271/2 I fl. 1310 clerk
d. bef 31 Oct 1347 I fl. 1317
I
______________________I____________________
I I I I I I
John Elizabeth Joan Katherine I Thomas = Agnes
d. 1393 prioress _________I d. aft I le
I of Thickhed I 21 Dec I Botiller
I Margaret 1379 I
Isabel I
_______________I
I
1) Joan = Peter = 2) Elizabeth
3) Elizabeth d. bef I
Woodruff 11 Apr I
1431 I
I
___________________________I_________
I I I I
Thomas Peter Robert Elizabeth
dvp aft 1 Jul 1426 = John Wortley
= Agnes le Botiller of Wortley
I I
I V
I
________I_______________________________________
I I I I I
Isabel Katherine Elizabeth Alice Dorothy
= John = Robert = John = Thomas nun, of
le Hildyard Knyght Thwaites Swine
Vavasour Esq. I
I I I
V V V





* John P. Ravilious

alden@mindspring.com

Re: A Domesday Descent: Hay of Aughton, and of Spaldington

Legg inn av alden@mindspring.com » 21 sep 2006 13:28:41

Therav3@aol.com wrote:
Thursday, 21 September, 2006


Hi John

snip snip
___________________________I_________
I I I I
Thomas Peter Robert Elizabeth
= John

Wortley
dvp aft 1 Jul 1426

= Agnes le Botiller should be [Joan or Elizabeth Babthorpe] ??
I I
I V
I
snip

Doug

Gjest

Re: A Domesday Descent: Hay of Aughton, and of Spaldington

Legg inn av Gjest » 21 sep 2006 13:50:03

Thursday, 21 September, 2006


Hello All,

Following are the notes to the prior post.

Cheers,

John



1. William Farrer, Hon.D.Litt., Editor, "Early Yorkshire Charters,"
Ballantyne, Hanson & Co., Edinburgh, 1915-1916, Vol. II (1915)
Vol. III (1916), Vol. XII [the family of Constable of Flamborough],
courtesy Rosie Bevan, Vol. V [Manfield fee, pp. 53-58 ], courtesy
Rosie Bevan, <Re: Avice de Tanfield, wife of Robert Marmion>,
SGM, 26 Feb 2002.
2. William Brown, B.A., ed., "Yorkshire Inquisitions," The Yorkshire
Archaeological Society, Record Series), various dates:, Vol. I
(Record series vol. XII) - 1892, Vol. II(Record series vol. XXIII)
- 1898, Vol. III (Record series vol. XXXI) - 1902, Vol. IV (Record
series vol. XXXVII) - 1906.
3. John de Kirkby, "The survey of the county of York taken by John
de Kirkby, commonly called Kirkby's Inquest," also inquisitions
of knights' fees, the Nomina villarum for Yorkshire, and an
appendix of illustrative documents, Durham: Pub. for the Society
by Andrews and Co., 1867.
4. "Testamenta Eboracensia [Selection of Wills, Reg. at York]," The
Surtees Society, Andrews & Co., Durham (J. B. Nichols & Sons,
London), Vol. IV, Pt. I: 1869, IV:50-52, will of Isabella
Deincourt (wife of Sir William fitz William) d. 1348, IV:97-99,
will of Marmaduke Constable (d. 1378), see pp. 100-101 for will
of Sir Martin de la See, IV:418-419, will of Isabella Salvayn,
URL http://www.uiowa.edu/~c030149a/northern ... rktext.pdf
5. Gaillard Thomas Lapsley, "The County Palatine of Durham: A Study
in Constitutional History," New York: Longmans, Green, and Co.,
1900, Vol. VIII, Harvard Historical Studies.
6. "Calendar of the Close Rolls," Edw III (1327-1330), London: Printed
for His Majesty's Stationery Office by Eyre and Spottiswoode, 1896.
7. "Calendar of the Close Rolls," Edw III (1330-1333), London: Printed
for His Majesty's Stationery Office by Mackie & Co., LD., 1898.
8. "Testamenta Eboracensia, or Wills Registered at York," The Surtees
Society, London: J. B. Nichols & Son, 1836 (Part I - Vol. 4 of
Surtees Society publications), p. 12 will of Peter de la Hay
(1345), URL
http://www.uiowa.edu/~c030149a/northern ... rktext.pdf
9. Sir William Dugdale, "Monasticon Anglicanum," London: Harding &
Lepard; and Longman Rees... Green, 1830, Vol. VI, Pt. 1 - Austin
Abbey of Wigmore, in Herefordshire, pp. 348-356 [Fundationis et
Fundatorum Historia], Vol. VI, Pt. 2 - Priory of Bullington, co.
Lincs., pp. 951-954, URL

http://monasticmatrix.usc.edu/bibliogra ... il&id=2659
10. Rev. R. V. Taylor, "Ribston and the Knights Templar," The
Yorkshire Archaeological and Topographical Journal, Vol. VIII
(1884), London: printed for the Association by Bradbury, Agnew
and Co., Whitefriars, E.C., pp. 259 et seq.
11. "Access to Archives," http://www.a2a.pro.gov.uk/
12. W. Paley Baildon, "The Butlers of Skelbrook and Kirk Sandal,"
Yorkshire Archaeological Journal, Vol. 29 (1929), pp. 68-88,
text provided by David Hepworth, <BUTLER OF SKELBROOK AND KIRK
SANDAL>, SGM, 11 January 2005, email davidbhepworth@hotmail.com.
13. George Poulson, Esq., "The History and Antiquities of the Seigniory
of Holderness," Hull: Thomas Topping, and W. Pickering, 1840
(Vol I) 1841 (Vol II), pp. 197-198, pedigree of Hilton of Swine.
14. Richard Holmes, "Wapentake of Osgoldcross," The Yorkshire
Archaeological Journal, Vol. XII (1893), London: printed for the
Association by Bradbury, Agnew and Co., Whitefriars, E.C.
15. Rev. R. V. Taylor, "Rolls of the Collectors in the West-Riding
of the Lay-Subsidy (Poll Tax) 2 Richard II., Wapentake of
Osgodcrosse," The Yorkshire Archaeological and Topographical
Journal, Vol. VI (1881), London: printed for the Association by
Bradbury, Agnew and Co., Whitefriars, E.C., pp. 1 et seq.
16. Rev. William Greenwell, ed., "Bishop Hatfield's Survey, A Record
of the Possessions of the See of Durham," Durham: published for
the Society by George Andrews, 1857, Surtees Soc. Vol. XXXII.
17. "Calendar of the Patent Rolls," preserved in the Public Record
Office, London: Printed for His Majesty's Stationery Office by the
Hereford Times Co., Ltd., 1910, (Henry III, A.D. 1258-1266), p. 435,
grant to Richard de Brus of the custody of the heir of Roger de Tony,
(Henry III, A.D. 1266-1272), (Richard II, A.D. 1377-1381), Vol. 1,
p. 524, presentation to the church of Southpole, 3 July 1380,
(Richard II, A.D. 1391-1396), Vol. V, p. 3, election of Sibyl de
Montagu as prioress of Amesbury, (Richard II, A.D. 1396-1399),
Vol. VI, p. 34, (Henry IV, A.D. 1399-1401), Vol. I, pp. 268-9,
controversy re: Sibyl de Montagu, prioress of Amesbury,
(Henry VII, A.D. 1485 - 1494), Vol. 1, pp. 36-37, grant to
Robert Skerne, Esq., Vol. 2, p. 52 (commissions of array).
18. William Brown, F.S.A., ed., "Yorkshire Deeds," The Yorkshire
Archaeological Society, Record Series, 1909, Record series
vol. XXXIX - for the year 1907.
19. "Durham University Library Archives & Special Collections,"
Medieval seals (based on Greenwell & Blair's catalogue),
http://flambard.dur.ac.uk:6336/dynaweb/ ... 6726;pt=43
338
20. "The National Archives," URL
http://www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/
21. J. T. Fowler, ed., "Extracts from the Account Rolls of the Abbey
of Durham," Durham: Andrews & Co., 1898, Surtees Soc. , Vol. XCIX.
22. "Calendar of the Patent Rolls," preserved in the Public Record
Office, Henry IV: A.D. 1405-1408, London: for the Public Record
Office.
23. "Calendar of the Patent Rolls," preserved in the Public Record
Office, Henry IV: A.D. 1408-1413, London: for the Public Record
Office.
24. "Calendar of the Patent Rolls," preserved in the Public Record
Office, Henry V: A.D. 1413-1416, London: for the Public Record
Office.
25. William Paley Baildon, F.S.A., "Notes on the Religious and Secular
Houses of Yorkshire, Vol. I," The Yorkshire Archaeological Society
Record Series, Vol. XVII, Printed for the Society, 1894.
26. Alfred S. Ellis, "Yorkshire Deeds," The Yorkshire Archaeological
Journal, Vol. XII (1893), London: printed for the Association by
Bradbury, Agnew and Co., Whitefriars, E.C.
27. "Calendar of the Patent Rolls," preserved in the Public Record
Office, Henry VI: A.D. 1422-1429, London: for the Public Record
Office.
28. William Page, ed., "The Certificates of the Commissioners Appointed
to Survey the Chantries, Guilds, Hospitals, Etc., in the County of
York," Durham: Andrews & Co., 1894, Surtees Soc. , Vol. XCI (Part I).
29. "Testamenta Eboracensia [A Selection of Wills from the Registry at
York]," The Surtees Society, Durham: Andrews & Co., 1855 - Part II
(Vol. 30, Surtees Society publications), pp. 11-12 will of Peter de
la Hay, proved 11 Apr 1431, URL
http://www.uiowa.edu/~c030149a/northern ... rktext.pdf
30. "Genealogics," website by Leo van de Pas, http://www.genealogics.com
31. Douglas Richardson, "Heirs of Thomas de la Haye, Esquire, of
Spaldington, Yorkshire," 31 August 2005, GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com,
cites Sir Henry Vavasour, The Proceedings of the Society of
Antiquaries 2nd ser. 4 (1869): 79, and other sources.
32. "Pedigrees of the County Families of Yorkshire," compiled by
Joseph Foster, London: W. Wilfred Head, 1874 (2 Vols.).
33. W. H. Bliss, ed., "Calendar of Entries in the Papal Registers
Relating to Great Britain and Ireland," Papal Letters, Vol.
II (A.D. 1305 - 1342), London: for the Public Record Office,
1895, (reprinted 1971, Kraus-Thomson, Liechtenstein).

John P. Ravilious

Re: A Domesday Descent: Hay of Aughton, and of Spaldington

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 21 sep 2006 14:02:48

Dear Doug,

Right you are.

Not only is the error in question (Thomas de la Haye marrying
his grandmother, Agnes le Botiller) wrong, it likely would never have
received a papal dispensation.

The detailed pedigree has it correct......fortunately. Thanks
for catching that.

Cheers,

John



alden@mindspring.com wrote:
Therav3@aol.com wrote:
Thursday, 21 September, 2006


Hi John

snip snip
___________________________I_________
I I I I
Thomas Peter Robert Elizabeth
= John
Wortley
dvp aft 1 Jul 1426

= Agnes le Botiller should be [Joan or Elizabeth Babthorpe] ??
I I
I V
I
snip

Doug

John P. Ravilious

Re: A Domesday Descent: Hay of Aughton, and of Spaldington

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 21 sep 2006 14:27:42

Thursday, 21 September, 2006


Hello All,

Following is a detailed pedigree of the de la Haye family of
Spaldington, reflecting the details and corrections derived from
Early Yorkshire Charters and other records lately found.

There are a number of questions concerning this family which
still lack answers. Peter de la Haye's tenure of Streatlam, co.
Durham will be dealt with in a separate post to the thread
commenced on that issue. Constance, wife of Robert le Butiler
(or Botiller) and great-great grandmother of Agnes le Botiller
(wife of Thomas de la Haye) has been found to be a de la Haye
herself, and a separate post will be made shortly. There may
be an early connection (before 1182) between the de la Hayes of
Spaldington and the Aughton family, but that has not yet been
found. There is still a good possibility that the alleged
marriage of Sir Peter de la Haye (not a son of Thomas de la
Haye of Aughton, as earlier thought) to a niece of William
fitz Peter was the source of certain Spaldington holdings,
but that determination awaits additional evidence.

The additions and corrections this provides to the received
(and hitherto conjectured) de la Haye pedigree would not have been
possible without the contributions of Rosie Bevan, to whom any
credit, and my thanks, are due. Additional documentation or
comment is welcome, as always.

Cheers,

John *


1 Ralph de la Haye
----------------------------------------

of Spaldington, co. Yorks.

' In 1182 a certain Richard son of Anthony owed 10 marks for the right
of 10 carucates and one bovate in [Kirk or West] Ella and Spaldington
against Ralph de Haya and Reginald Rosel; but he had not the right. '
[EYC XII:88[1], cites "Pipe Roll 28 Hen. II, p. 45. The debt
continued
and was paid in 1185 (ibid. 31 Hen. II, p. 65)."]

" Radulfus de la Haie ", record of a gift to Swine priory, 1188 or
before:
" 65. Notification by the chapter of Swine priory that Ralph de la
Hay, with the consent of his heirs Richard and Philip, had given
in frankalmoign 9 bovates of land and a dwelling in Spaldingtonk,
and in lieu of 3 other dwellings belonging thereto 12 acres in his
woodland for making granges, namely a fifth of his land in
Spaldington of the fee of Roger de Mowbray, the priory doing a
proportionate amount of the forinsec service due; with pasture
for 100 cows, 100 pigs, of which 60 would be free of pannage,
400 sheep, and 220 unbroken mares with their foals; the fifth part
being in the donor's woodland lying next the hermitage of
Spaldingholme and the 12 acres adjacent, extending to the
boundary between the donor's woodland and that of Howden.
[ante 1189] " [EYC XII:89-90, no. 65[1] - Original Charer, B.M. Add.
Charter 26108. Farrer, wrote, 'The latest date for this charter,
issued in the lifetime of Roger de Mowbray, is 1188.']

Children: Richard
Philip


1.1 Richard de la Haye
----------------------------------------

of Spaldington, co. Yorks.

gift to Swine priory by his father, 1188 or before, made with his
assent and that of his brother Philip [" concedentibus heredibus
suis Ricardo et Philippo...." ] [EYC XII:89-90, no. 65[1] -
Original Charer, B.M. Add. Charter 26108]

' Ricardo de la Hay', witness to a charter of Robert le Constable
dated before 1208:
" Robertus constabularius de Fleynesburgh et Willelmus filius suus ",
granted a charter to North Ormsby priory of pasture in Holme upon
Spalding Moor for specified numbers of animals and 11 acres of land,
for 10 marks of silver and 44d. yearly, before 1208. Witnesses,
William fitz Peter of Goodmanham, Richard de la Hay [" Willelmo
filio Petri de Gudmundham, Ricardo de la Hay,..."] and others.
[EYC XII:94-95, no. 70, cites Transcripts of Gilbertine Charters, p.
65]

" Ricardus de la Hai ", granted a charter to North Ormsby priory of
land in Spaldington, witnessed by William le Bachelor [" Willelmo
Baceler "] and others. [EYC XII:95, no. 71[1], cites Transcripts
of Gilbertine Charters, p. 66]

Children: Philip
Sir Peter (->1254)


1.1.1 Philip de la Haye
----------------------------------------

probably succeeded his father, but possibly d.v.p. * :
reference made to his land in Spaldington, concerning which Farrer
wrote,
' Another gift of land [to North Ormsby priory] in the territory of
Spaldington was made by Sir Peter de Haya son of Richard de Haya
of Spaldington, mentioning land formerly belonging to Philip de
Haya ' [EYC XII:95[1]]

' 72. Confirmation by Peter de la Hay of Spaldington to Ellerton
priory of reasonable estovers by the view of his forester through-
out the wood which had been of the fee of William son of Peter
[de Goodmanham] in Spaldington [" quod fuit de feodo Willelmi filii
Petri in Spaldingtun "], for the purposes of the tofts
which the priory had of the gifts of Robert son of William, William
Bacheler, Philip de la Hay ["" de dono Philippi de la Hay "], and
Osbert [de Spaldington] and
Lecia his wife; and to the men of the priory dwelling in the
tofts of sufficient pasture for their beasts and for 36 pigs free of
pannage in the time of pannage; in accordance with the charter
of William son of Peter, except for the restriction of freedom of
pannage as specified. [ ante 1228 ] "
[EYC XII:95-97, no. 72[1], cites MS. Dodsworth vii,
f. 333v - witnessed by Roger Hay, Philip de la Hay
(" Rogero Hay,..., Philippo de la Hay,..." ) and others.]

~ ' The previous charter in the Dodsworth MS. is the one by which
William son of Peter had given the estovers throughout all his wood
of Spaldington in almost identical terms,....
... there is a warranty clause, and the witnesses are Alan de Wilton,
Richard de la Haye, Oliver de Gunnebi, William son of Adam de Garton,
William Battaile, Robert son of William de Spaldington, and William
Bacheler.... The last date for Peter's confirmation can be taken as
1228,
when Oliver de Gunby was apparently dead. ' [1]

* Note: a charter of his brother Sir Peter was witnessed by
' Philippo de la Hay ' [EYC XII:95-97, no. 72[1]] -
a son of Philip, or of Peter?

Spouse: Agnes le Constable
Father: Robert le Constable of Flamborough (-<1208)
Mother: Eufemia


1.1.2 Sir Peter de la Hay
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 15 May 1254[2]

knt., of Spaldington, co. Yorks.

concerning his father, Farrer wrote:
' His successor appears to have been his son Peter, who confirmed
to Ellerton priory estovers in his wood of Spaldington (no. 72),
and who as Peter son of Richard de la Hay of Spaldiington gave to
the same house a toft and croft in Holme on the Wolds. <6> Peter
de hay witnessed the agreement between William de Vescy and Robert
Constable on 24 February 1246-7 (no. 52) ' [EYC XII:88[1]]

' Another gift of land [to North Ormsby priory] in the territory of
Spaldington was made by Sir Peter de Haya son of Richard de Haya
of Spaldington, mentioning land formerly belonging to Philip de
Haya ' [EYC XII:95[1]]

" Petrus de la Hay de Spaldington ", confirmed certain grants to
Ellerton priory, before 1228:
' 72. Confirmation by Peter de la Hay of Spaldington to Ellerton
priory of reasonable estovers by the view of his forester through-
out the wood which had been of the fee of William son of Peter
[de Goodmanham] in Spaldington [" quod fuit de feodo Willelmi filii
Petri in Spaldingtun "], for the purposes of the tofts
which the priory had of the gifts of Robert son of William, William
Bacheler, Philip de la Hay ["" de dono Philippi de la Hay "], and
Osbert [de Spaldington] and
Lecia his wife; and to the men of the priory dwelling in the
tofts of sufficient pasture for their beasts and for 36 pigs free of
pannage in the time of pannage; in accordance with the charter
of William son of Peter, except for the restriction of freedom of
pannage as specified. [ ante 1228 ] "
[EYC XII:95-97, no. 72[1], cites MS. Dodsworth vii,
f. 333v - witnessed by Roger Hay, Philip de la Hay
(" Rogero Hay,..., Philippo de la Hay,..." ) and others.]

~ ' The previous charter in the Dodsworth MS. is the one by which
William son of Peter had given the estovers throughout all his wood
of Spaldington in almost identical terms,....
... there is a warranty clause, and the witnesses are Alan de Wilton,
Richard de la Haye, Oliver de Gunnebi, William son of Adam de Garton,
William Battaile, Robert son of William de Spaldington, and William
Bacheler.... The last date for Peter's confirmation can be taken as
1228,
when Oliver de Gunby was apparently dead. '


' Sir (D'ns) Peter de la Haye holds half a fee in Spaldington of the
Barony of Mubraye, and pays yearly 6s. 8d. That land is worth five
marcs. ' IPM of Robert de Greystoke, son of William, extent dated
15 May 1254 [Yorks. Inq. I:37[2]]

: Peter de la Haye (evidently his grandson) held the same land,
1302-03 [Kirkby's Inquest, p. 252[3]]


" Petrus de la Hay miles ", granted land in Spaldington to Ellerton
priory, and his body for interment, witnessed by ' John my son and
heir ', Roger de Linton in Lathom, and others:
' 73. Gift by Sir Peter de la Hay, knt, to Ellerton priory with his
body for burial, of 3 acres of arable land in the field of
Spaldington, abutting on the headland of Gribthorpe towards
the north. ' [middle 13th cent.] [EYC XII:97, no. 73[1], cites
MS. Dodsworth vii, f. 334]

Children: John (-<1285)


1.1.2.1 John de la Hay
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1285[3]

of Spaldington, co. Yorks.

" Johanne filio et herede meo ", witnessed gift by his father of land
in Spaldington to Ellerton priory, and his body for interment
(witnessed by ' John my son and heir ', Roger de Linton in Lathom,
and others):
' 73. Gift by Sir Peter de la Hay, knt, to Ellerton priory with his
body
for burial, of 3 acres of arable land in the field of Spaldington,
abutting on the headland of Gribthorpe towards the north. ' [middle
13th cent.] [EYC XII:97, no. 73[1], cites MS. Dodsworth vii, f. 334]

possibly the 'John del Hay' who [together with William de Flamborough,
Richard de Lacy and others] took the extent of the lands of Gilbert de
Gant, 7 Feb 1273/4 - IPM of Gilbert de Gaunt, writ dated Westminster,
26 Jan 2 Edw. I [1273/4] [Yorks. Inq. I:137[2]]

he was evidently the ' John del Hay' of Spaldington who d. before 1285,
when his heir was recorded as a tenant of German del Hay in
Spaldington
for land in the Mauley fee:
' Spaldington. Item idue Petrus [de Mauley] habet in
Spaldington iij car. et j bov. et di. in feodo; unde
Russell (sic), Walterus Bathell, et haer' Johannis
del Hay tenent totum de Germano le Hay, et Germanus
le Hay del Maulay. ' [Kirkby's Inquest, Wapentake of Harthill,
East Riding (p. 83)[3]]


Children: Peter (<1271-<1347)
John
James


1.1.2.1.1 Peter de la Hay
----------------------------------------
Birth: bef 7 Mar 1271[1]
Death: bef 31 Oct 1347[4]

of Spaldington, co. Yorks.

he was born before 7 Mar 1271/2 [see below, EYC XII:88-89[1]]

he evidently succeeded his father as a minor before 1284-5, when as
' the heir of John del Hay' he was recorded as a tenant of German
(de) la Hay:
' Spaldington. Item idue Petrus [de Mauley] habet in
Spaldington iij car. et j bov. et di. in feodo; unde
Russell (sic), Walterus Bathell, et haer' Johannis
del Hay tenent totum de Germano le Hay, et Germanus
le Hay del Maulay. ' [Kirkby's Inquest, Wapentake of Harthill,
East Riding (p. 83)[3]]

' Petrus de la Haie ', held 1/2 carucate in Spaldington of Piers de
Mauley, and 2 1/2 carucates in Spaldington of the honour of Mowbray,
1302-03:
Spaldington:
' De feodo de Moubrai iiij car. terrae vij bov. di.
Osbertus de Spaldington tenet j car ij bov. di.,
Custancia de la Haie iiij bov., Philippus de la Haie
di. car., Petrus de la Haie residuum, - unde xviij
car. terrae faciunt feod.
De feodo de Mortuo Mari iij car. terrae j bov.
Rogerus de Spaldington tenet ij car. di. j bov.,
Osbertus de Spaldington di. car., - under xvj faciunt
feod.
De feodo de Malo Lacu ij car. et vj bov.
Petrus de la Haie tenet di. car., Osbertus de
Spaldington di. car., Johannes Malurer v bov., Johannes
filius Thomae vj bov., haeredes Walteri le Bacheler
iiij bov., - under xvj faciunt feod. ' [Knights' Fees in Yorkshire,
dated 1302-3, Kirkby's Inquest p. 252[3]]


reference to an interest in the manor of Streatlam, in comparison to
a separate case in Rot. Parl. 2 Edw. III:
' See also the interesting case of Peter de la Haye, in 1316 (Calendar
of Close Rolls, 1313-1318, p. 360). The king's interest ws involved
here, because the manor of Streatlam, which Peter sought to recover,
was a member of the seignory of Barnard Castle; and Barnard Castle,
owing to certain particular reasons, was at that time in the king's
hands (see above, $5, and cf. Surtees, Durham, iv. 100-101). '
Lapsley, p. 214[5]

' Peter de la Haye ', witness to enrollment dated at Westminster,
2 Feb 1326/7:
' Enrolment of grant by John son of John de Metham, knight (militis),
to Sir William de Ousthorp, clerk, of all his lands, rents, etc.,
in the town of Estrington. Witnesses: Sir Roger de Dayvill and Sir
Peer de Salso Marisco, knights; John de Caynel, Nicholas de
Portyngton, Peter de la Haye, Thomas de Cave of Hithe, John de
Greynayk, William de Bellasise, William de Warewyk. Dated at
London, 2 February 1326[-7].' [ CCR Edw III (1327-1330), 1
Edw III, p. 88, mem. 28d[6]]

order of King Edward III, dated at Westminster, 21 Dec 1330:
' To the treasurer and barons of the exchequer and to the
chamberlains. Peter de la Haye of Spaldyngton and Thomas Bachiler
of Spaldyngton, have shewn the king, by petition before him and
his council in parliament, that the king is indebted to them in
52s. 6d. for oats bought from them for his use, as appears by bills
of the wardrobe in their possession, and they have besought the
king to order payment thereof to them: the king therefore orders
the treasurer and barons and chamberlains to see the bills aforesaid,
and they are to cause it to be paid to them out of the treasury, or
to cause them to have an assignment thereof. '
[CCR Edw III (1330-1333), 4 Edw. III, mem. 10, p. 94[7]]

concerning Peter de la Hay, Farrer wrote:
' A later Peter de la Hay held land in Spaldington both of the
Mowbray and Mauley fees in 1302-03, as noted above. He was born
not later than 1272, as in the proof of age of John son and heir
of John of York made on 7 March 1331-2 he gave his own age as
sixty years and more, stating that John was born at Spaldington
in the house of Peter del Hay on 25 September 1310 and baptised
at Bubwith on the same day, John son of Peter del Hay lifting
him from the font; and this he knew as he had a daughter Margaret
born at Spaldington on 18 September of the same year. '
[EYC XII:88-89[1]; note (1) cites, ' Cal. Inq. p.m., vii, no. 485.']


will of Peter de la Hay, dated feast of St. Valentine, 14 Feb 1344/5
(proved 31 Oct 1347) [Test. Ebor. I:12-13[8]]

Spouse: Cecilia

Children: John (-<1393)
Elizabeth
Joan
Katherine
Thomas (->1379)
Margaret (1310-)


[ Part II of pedigree to follow ]

John P. Ravilious

Re: A Domesday Descent: Hay of Aughton, and of Spaldington

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 21 sep 2006 14:33:00

Thursday, 21 September, 2006


Hello All,

Following is Part II of the detailed pedigree (the original post
was too large for Google's purposes, evidently).

The notes to the pedigree are to be found in the second post to
this thread (as Google has it currently arranged).

Cheers,

John


PART II:


1.1.2.1.1.1 John de la Hay
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 31 Dec 1393[4]

' Johanne filio meo ', executor of his father's will, together
with his mother Cecilia and brother Thomas (will of Peter de la
Hay, dated feast of St. Valentine, 1345 (proved 31 Oct 1347)
[Test. Ebor. I:12-13[4]])

will of John de la Hay, of Spaldington, dated 23 June 1391, proved
31 Dec 1393 [Test. Ebor. I:155-6[4]]

Children: Isabel


1.1.2.1.1.2 Elizabeth de la Hay
----------------------------------------
Occ: Prioress of Thickheved

nun, of Thickhed priory, 1345

Prioress of Thickhed, 6 May 1335

' Elizabethae filiae meae moniali in prioratissa de Thikhede ',
had bequest of 20s. in her father's will (will of Peter de la
Hay, dated feast of St. Valentine, 1345 (proved 31 Oct 1347)
[Test. Ebor. I:12-13[4]])

cf. Mon. Angl. IV:385[9]
Taylor, YAJ VIII:269, note (84)[10]


1.1.2.1.1.3 Joan de la Hay
----------------------------------------

' Johannae filiae meae manenti in Swyn', had bequest of 6s. 8d.
in her father's will (will of Peter de la Hay, dated feast of
St. Valentine, 1345 (proved 31 Oct 1347) [Test. Ebor. I:12-13[4]])


1.1.2.1.1.4 Katherine de la Hay
----------------------------------------

'Katerinae filiae meae', will of her father Peter de la Hay,
dated feast of St. Valentine, 1345 (proved 31 Oct 1347) [Test.
Ebor. I:12-13[4]])


1.1.2.1.1.5 Thomas de la Hay
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 21 Dec 1379[11]

of Spaldington, East Riding, co.Yorks.

' Thoma filio meo ', executor of his father's will, together with
his mother Cecilia and brother John (will of Peter de la Hay, dated
feast of St. Valentine, 1345 (proved 31 Oct 1347) [Test. Ebor.
I:12-13[4]])


' 1365, Michaelmas - Fine between John Fitz William, knt., and
Elizabeth his wife, plaintiffs, and Thomas del Haye and Agnes his wife,
deforciants, of the fourth part of the manor of Darthynton [Darrington]
near Pontefract; to hold to John and Elizabeth and the heirs of John.
Warranty by Thomas and Agnes for themselves and the heirs of Agnes
..'[12]


' 1365-6, Hilary Term - Fine between Robert de Staynton, chivaler,
plaintiff, and Thomas de la Haye of Spaldington and Agnes his wife,
deforciant, of the manor of Skelbrooke and of 3 messuages, lands and
rent and ¼ of 5 messuages, lands and rent in Pontefract, Preston
[Purstan Jaglin], Ferrybridge, Stapleton, South Elmsall, Campsall,
[Kirk] Bramwith, Burgwallis, Skellow and Carcroft; to hold to Robert
for life, of Thomas and Agnes and the heirs of Agnes, paying yearly 10
marks to them, and doing service to the chief lords; reversion to
Thomas and Agnes and the heirs of Agnes . '[12]

he evidently d. after 21 Dec 1379 (date of a grant and quitclaim by
his son, in which he calls himself " Peter, son and heir of Thomas
de la Haye of Spaldington ") :

' Thomas de la Haye of Spaldington ', father of Peter, grant and
quitclaim dated 21 Dec 1379 [ A2A, Manchester University, John
Rylands Library: Phillips Charters - STAINTON-WITH-STREATLAM
(Co. Durham), PHC/254[11]]

Spouse: Agnes le Botiller
Death: aft 1365[12]
Father: John le Botiller (-<1347)
Mother: Joan de Sutton (-<1366)

Children: Peter (-<1431)


1.1.2.1.1.5.1a Peter de la Hay*
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 11 Apr 1431[4]

of Spaldington, E. R., and Skelbrook, W.R., co.Yorks.[13]

lord of Skelbrook by 1378, during his father's lifetime:
' In the Poll Tax of 1378 24 taxpayers were enrolled, only one of
whom, Peter del Hay, serjeant, paid more than 4d. The charge on
him was 6s. 8d. ' [Holmes, Wapentake of Osgoldcross, YAJ XII:68[14]]

: Holmes cites YAJ VI:31, for 'Villata de Skelbrok ' :
" Petrus del Hay & Johanna vx ejus, Serigant.... dimid. marc. "
[YAJ VI:31[15]]

record dated 21 Dec 1379:
' Grant and quitclaim made before the Corporation of the city of
York, by Peter, son and heir of Thomas de la Haye of Spaldington,
to William de Bowes, of his rights on the manor of Streatlam and
Stainton. ' [Seals missing.] - A2A, Manchester University, John
Rylands Library: Phillips Charters - STAINTON-WITH-STREATLAM
(Co. Durham), PHC/254[11]

he evidently succeeded his father after December 1379.

'Petrus del Hay', held a manor called 'Faderlesfeld' (in the parish
of Newton cum Boldon, consisting of 46 acres, ca. 1382) of William
Gategang, who held of the Bishop of Durham, ca. 1377-1385:
' Petrus del Hay ten. j placeam, voc. Faderlesfeld, cont. xlvj acr.
terrae, quondam Willelmi Gategang, et red. p. a. 26s. 10d. '
[Surtees Soc. XXXII:98[16]]

' Peter de la Hay ', together with John Heliard and John Brun,
alienated in mortmain to the abbot and convent of Selby '
15 tofts, 12 1/2 acres of land and a moiety of one toft with
appurtenances in Selby ', evidenced by licence to Selby priory
dated at Westminster, 12 Oct 1397 [CPR 21 Ric. II (1396-1399), mem.
5, p. 219[17]]

' Peter de la Hay of Spaldyngton ', witness to a grant dated at
Saltmarsh, Saturday, the feast of St. Matthew the Apostle, 22
Richard II. (Sept. 21, 1398):
' Grant by Robert de Bolton, prebendary of the prebend of
Saltmersshe (in Howden Church), Henry del Sandes, chaplain,
William de Lodyngton, William Rosselyn, John de Wylbirfosse,
and William de Waldeby of Portyngton, to Elizabeth, daughter
of Thomas de Saltmersshe, of a yearly rent of four marks for
her life from the manors of Saltmersshe and Eppilleby in
Rychemondshire, and from lands etc., in the vills of Beverley,
South Cave, Blaketoft, Laxton, Skelton by Houedene, and Houeden,
which they had of the grant of Thomas, her father, payable half
yearly at Whitsuntide and Martinmas, on condition that if
Thomas, son of Thomas de Saltmersshe, should die without issue
the annuity was to cease. Power of distraint during the life
of the said Thomas, son of Thomas.
Witnesses, Thomas de Metham, knt., Gerard de Usflete, knt.,
Gerard Salvayn, knt., Peter de la Hay of Spaldyngton, Thomas
Dayville, Thomas de Portyngton, Nicholas de Bernhille. '
[YAS XXXIX:147, no. 408[18]]

' Peter del Hay of Spaldington, guardian of the heirs of Thomas
of Claxton ',
1221 1398-1403:
Hay, Peter del
Styled Peter del Hay of Spaldington, guardian of the heirs of
Thomas of Claxton
Description: Octagonal signet, an escallop shell.
Size: 13 mm.
Inscription: sig petri : d : hay :
5.4.Elemos.6; Misc.Ch. 6541*, 6542[19]

record of a grant to the prioress of Swine of lands in Skirlaw
and Thirkleby, 3 Hen IV (1401/2):
C 143/432/9
Walter, bishop of Durham, Richard Holme, clerk, and Peter del Haye
to grant messuages and land in South Skirlaugh and Thirtleby
(Thurkilby) to the prioress and convent of Swine, retaining
land in Bubwith and elsewhere. York.
3 HENRY IV. '[20]

from the account roll of the chantry of Bishop Walter Skirlaw
at Durham, dated between 1 Nov 1402 and 1 Nov 1403:
' Recept. Et de 40s. 4d. rec. de terris et tenementis in Wolueston
de terminis Martini et Pentecostes infra hunc compotum. Et de 50s.
rec. per manus Petri del Hay apud Aukland. Et de 10s. rec. de
terra in Monketon infra hunc compotum. ' [Surtees Soc. XCIX:lix[21]]

' Peter de la Hay, esquire ', executor [together with Thomas Weston
and Richard Holm, clerks] of the will of W., late bishop of Durham
[grant by the king's Council dated at Westminster, 30 June 1406
- CPR 7 Hen IV (1405-1408), mem. 15, p. 205[22]]

Commission of array to 'Peter de la Hay' [together with "Robert
Hilton,'chivaler', the elder, Peter de Bukton, 'chivaler',
Alexander Lounde, 'chivaler', John de Hothom, 'chivaler', John
de Pygot, 'chivaler', Alexander de Metham, 'chivaler', Peter de
la Hay, John de Neusom, Thomas Seyntquyntyn, Thomas Raventhorpe
and the sheriff] 'in the East Riding in the county of York', for
defence against the Scots, granted at Westminster, 5 July 1410
[CPR 11 Hen. IV (1408-1413[23]), mem. 24d, pp. 223-4]

' Commission de walliis et fossatis to Richard Norton, William
Lodyngton, Peter de la Hay, John Dronsfeld, John Elond, Robert
Barneby, William Shirewode, Thomas Saynpole and Nicholas de
Brayton from Little Smeton to the water of Donne in the county
of York. ' granted at Westminster, 10 July 1413 [CPR 1 Hen. V
(1413-1416), mem. 44d., p. 110[24]]

Commission of array for defence of the realm during the king's
absence in foreign parts to " Robert Hilton, 'chivaler', John
de Aske, Peter de la Hay, Robert Rustane and Guy de Roweclyf,
in the East Riding in the county of York.' dated at Westminster,
14 Oct 1417 [CPR Hen. V (1416-1422[23]), mem. 15d, p. 144]

Commission of array 'for defence of the realm while the king is
in foreign parts for the recovery of the inheritance and rights
of the crown' to " The earl of Northumberland, John Routhe,
'chivaler', John de Ask, Richard de Hayton, Robert de Rudstan,
Peter de la Hay, John Ellerker and the sheriff, in the East
Riding in the county of York. ' , dated at Westminster, 1 Apr
1418 [CPR 6 Hen. V (1416-1422[23]), mem. 31d, p. 196]

' A.D. 1423. - Peter de Hay of Spaldyng v. Richard, Prior of
Hautempryse [Haltemprice], 14 marks debt. ' [YAS XVII:83, No.
11, cites De Banco, East. 1 Hen. VI. m. 142[25]]

record of a power of attorney dated between Sept. 1423 and Sept.
1424 [2 Hen. VI]:
' Power of attorney by Peter de Hay, esq., John Carleton, clk.
and Thos. Sutton, to Robt. del Gare of York, and Wm. Wryght of
Dyke to deliver seisin of a messuage, 3 tofts and 26 acres in
Neweland by Estryngton to Ralf de Medilton, esq. of Lincolnshire
and Hugh de Medilton his son. Neweland, ____, 2 Hen. VI.
[ B. 133.] ' [Ellis, Yorkshire Deeds, p. 246[26]]

escheator in the county of York, 1425 [CPR 5 Hen VI (1422-1429),
mem. 14, p. 417[27]]

founded a chantry at St. Mary's York, 16 Apr 1426:
' 9. The Chaunterye at th'aulter of Seynt Cuthbert in the said
Church of Yorke.
William Garnett, incumbent. The same is of the fundacion
of Walter Skyrlowe, sometyme busshope of Durham, and Peter de
la Haye of Yorke, esquire, being bounde to saye masses and other
suffrages for the soules of the founders and all Crysten soules,
and to be in his habyte all principall and double feestes,
Sondayes and nyne lessons, at mattens, masse, evynsong, and
processions to helpe the mayntenance of the servyce of God,
and to rede lessons, begynne antems and to execute at the high
aulter, as is appoynted to hym by th'officers in the quyer, as
apperyth by fundacion dated the xvjth daye of Aprill, the yere
of our Lord God MCCCCXXVJ.
The same chaunterye is wythyn the metropolitane church of
York. The necessitie thereof is to helpe in executyng divine
servyce in the same churche. And the fundacion is observyd and
kept accordynglye. Ther is no landes solde sithens the iiijth
day of February anno regni Regis Henrici viiij'vi., xxvij'mo. '
[Surtees Soc. XCI:189-190, no. 52[28]]

will of Peter de la Hay, dated 8 Aug 1426 (proved 11 Apr 1431)
[Test. Ebor. II:11-12[29]])
___________________________

possible ancestor or relation (?):
' Pg 85 Inrollment of Charter of Sir Thomas Delahay of 38 ac waste
in Lindby, as overleaf ' - A2A, Nottinghamshire Archives: Savile
of Rufford: Deeds and Estate Papers [DD/SR/13 - DD/SR/205],
DD/SR/20/33[11]

Spouse: Joan [1st wife]
Marr: bef 1378


1.1.2.1.1.5.1b Peter de la Hay* (See above)
----------------------------------------

Spouse: Elizabeth [2nd wife]
Death: bef 8 Aug 1426[29]

Children: Thomas (->1426)
Peter
Robert (-<1448)
Elizabeth


1.1.2.1.1.5.1b.1 Thomas de la Hay[13]
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 1 Jul 1426, d.v.p.[29]

of Spaldington, East Riding, co.Yorks.

a beneficiary of the will of Walter Skirlaw, Bishop of Durham,
dated 7 Mar 1403/4:
' Thoma et Petro filiis Petri del Hay,... ' [Test. Ebor. I:313[4]]

in re: the will of his father, the editor of Testamenta Eboracensia
wrote,
' (Sir) Thomas De la Hay, the eldest son of the testator, married
a daughter of Sir William Babthorpe of Babthorpe, by whom he left
five daughters and coheirs, who carried the representation of his
house into the families of Vavasour, Hildyard, Knight, and Thwaites.
From the date of his own will, and the absence of his name in the
present document, he probably had died just before the date of
his father's will. By his will, dated July 1, 1426, in which he
calls himself Thomas del Hay, son of Peter del Hay de Spaldyngton,
he directs his body to be buried in the conventual church of
Ellerton, near Elizabeth his mother. He mentions his brother
Robert del Hay, and Joan his own wife, and his children. '
[Test. Ebor. II:11, note[29]]

evidently d.v.p. before 8 Aug 1426 [Test. Ebor. II:11-12[29]]

GENEALOGICS I00198971[30]
_______________________

concerning the family of Thomas de la Hay, Douglas Richardson
provided the following extract:
"Deed whereby Robert Hilyerd knight, son and heir of Katerine one of
the daughters and heirs of Thomas de la Haye, esquire, Elezabeth
Knyght, widow, the third of the daughters and heirs of Thomas, and
Alice Thwaytes widow, fourth daughter and heir of Thomas, release and
quit-claim to John Vavasour junior, serjeant-at-law, and his heirs, all

their right in the manor of Spaldyngton and Willytofte, and 20 acres of

land in Holme. Habendum to releases in fee, with warranty. Last day
of August, 21 Edward IV. (1481)." [The Proceedings of the Society of
Antiquaries 2nd ser. 4 (1869): 79]. [31]

Spouse: Joan Babthorpe
Death: aft 6 Oct 1433[4]
Father: Sir William (or Ralph) Babthorpe
Mother: [possibly] Maud Hildyard

Children: Isabel (-<1481), m. John le Vavasour
Katherine (-<1481), m. Robert Hildyard
Elizabeth, m. John Knyght
Alice (-1485), m. Thomas Thwaites
Dorothy, nun


1.1.2.1.1.5.1b.2 Peter de la Hay
----------------------------------------

a beneficiary of the will of Walter Skirlaw, Bishop of Durham, dated
7 Mar 1403/4:
' Thoma et Petro filiis Petri del Hay,... ' [Test. Ebor. I:313[4]]'
[Test. Ebor. I:313[4]]


1.1.2.1.1.5.1b.3 Robert de la Hay
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 8 Jan 1448[29]

rector of Brantingham, co. Yorks.

'Robertum del Hay filium meum', beneficiary and executor of the
will of his father Peter de la Hay, dated 8 Aug 1426 (proved 11
Apr 1431) [Test. Ebor. II:11-12[29]])

named in the will of his brother Thomas [Test. Ebor. II:11, note[29]]

cf. Test. Ebor.II:11, notes[29]


1.1.2.1.1.5.1b.4 Elizabeth de la Hay
----------------------------------------

' Elizabeth (1st wife), daughter of Sir Peter de la Hay, Knt. '
[Foster I: pedigree of Wortley of Wortley[32]]

evidently a beneficiary of the will of Walter Skirlaw, Bishop of
Durham, dated 7 Mar 1403/4:
' Item Elizabethae del Hay unam ollam argenti et unum ciphum
deauratum. ' [Test. Ebor. I:313[4]]

Spouse: John Wortley, of Wortley

Children: Sir Nicholas Wortley, of Wortley


1.1.2.1.1.5.1c Peter de la Hay* (See above)
----------------------------------------

Spouse: Elizabeth Woodruff [3rd wife]
Death: bef 3 Aug 1434[29]
Marr: bef 8 Aug 1426[29]


1.1.2.1.1.6 Margaret de la Hay
----------------------------------------
Birth: 18 Sep 1310, Spaldington, co. Yorks.[1]


1.1.2.1.2 John de la Hay
----------------------------------------

' John son of Peter del Hay ', godfather of John of York who
" was born at Spaldington in the house of Peter del Hay on
25 September 1310 and baptised at Bubwith on the same day,
John son of Peter del Hay lifting him from the font "
[EYC XII:88-89[1]; note (1) cites, ' Cal. Inq. p.m., vii, no. 485.']



1.1.2.1.3 James de la Hay
----------------------------------------

clerk

record dated at Avignon, 7 Kal. April [27 March] 1317:
" To James called 'Hay', of Spaldington, of the diocese of
York. Reservation of a benefice in that of Lincoln, value
50 marks. " [Papal Letters II:146[33]]



[see notes in followup post]


* John P. Ravilious

Gjest

Re: A Domesday Descent: Hay of Aughton, and of Spaldington

Legg inn av Gjest » 21 sep 2006 22:20:04

In a message dated 9/21/06 4:43:11 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Therav3 writes:

<< Children: John (-<1393)
Elizabeth
Joan
Katherine
Thomas (->1379)
Margaret (1310-) >>


Also the above John de la Haye should be marked as "Born Before 1304" at
least since in 1310 he "lifted [a baby] from the font" a baptismal font. I have
no idea how old you'd have to be to do this, but at least say .... seven ?

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Pope family ancestral to Coombes of New England

Legg inn av Gjest » 22 sep 2006 00:06:02

In a message dated 9/21/06 6:40:20 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
starbuck95@hotmail.com writes:

<<
http://books.google.com/books?vid=OCLC0 ... e+hangings >>


Thanks to John for this link.
The described Sir Thomas Pope was the founder of Trinity College, oxford. He
died 29 jan 1559 Clerkenwell and is buried at St Stephen's

In 1547 the manor of Tyttenhanger was granted to Sir Thomas Pope and his wife
Elizabeth Bount who had married in 1540 per http://www.tudorplace.com.ar

She is called dau of "Walter /Blount/ of Blount's Hall, Staffordshire" in
Dictionary of National Biography, "Paulet, Hugh" online at http://www.ancestry.com

but I don't otherwise know otherthing about this Blount family.

As this implies, Elizabeth married secondly to
Hugh /Paulet/ ,Knt., Governor of Jersey 1550-1574

This Hugh died 6 Dec 1573 Hinton, St. George, Somerset, England

He was the son of Laura of Kellaway by Amias Paulet, Knt (1457-1538) who also
has a DNB entry

The William Pope who is mentioned in the link was later Earl of Downe created
in 1628 and had married Anne Hopton in 1595, dau of Sir Owen Hopton d 1595 by
his wife Anne Itchingham

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: A Domesday Descent: Hay of Aughton, and of Spaldington

Legg inn av Gjest » 22 sep 2006 05:16:02

Thursday, 21 September, 2006


Dear Will,

Actually, the John de la Haye in question ([1.1.2.1.2, the
godfather of John of York) was the son of John, and uncle of
the John (1.1.2.1.1.1, son of Peter who d. 1347 or before) you
mentioned.

For ease (or easier ease) of reference, I have replicated
the (corrected) skeleton pedigree below, and put the reference
numbers from the detailed pedigree in place to illustrate.

Cheers,

John




Ralph de la Haye
of Spaldington (fl. 1182)
I
____I__________________________
I I
Richard Philip
fl. ca. 1185-1200
I
___I_______________________________
I I
Philip = Agnes le Sir Peter
(dvp ?) Constable d. aft 12 May 1254
I
I
John
d. before 1285
I
_____________________________I___________
I I I
Peter = Cecilia John James
b. bef 7 May 1271/2 I fl. 1310 clerk
d. bef 31 Oct 1347 I 1.1.2.1.2 fl. 1317
1.1.2.1.1 I 1.1.2.1.3
I
______________________I_________________________
I I I I I I
John Elizabeth Joan Katherine I Thomas = Agnes
d. 1393 prioress __________I d. aft I le
1.1.2.1.1.1 of Thickhed I 21 Dec I Botiller
I Margaret 1379 I
Isabel I
_____________________I
I
1) Joan = Peter = 2) Elizabeth
3) Elizabeth d. bef I
Woodruff 11 Apr I
1431 I
I
___________________________I_________
I I I I
Thomas Peter Robert Elizabeth
dvp aft 1 Jul 1426 = John Wortley
= Joan Babthorpe of Wortley
I I
I V
I
________I_______________________________________
I I I I I
Isabel Katherine Elizabeth Alice Dorothy
= John = Robert = John = Thomas nun, of
le Hildyard Knyght Thwaites Swine
Vavasour Esq. I
I I I
V V V

Gjest

Re: A Domesday Descent: Hay of Aughton, and of Spaldington

Legg inn av Gjest » 22 sep 2006 05:17:02

In a message dated 9/21/06 7:23:25 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Therav3 writes:

<< Actually, the John de la Haye in question ([1.1.2.1.2, the
godfather of John of York) was the son of John, and uncle of
the John (1.1.2.1.1.1, son of Peter who d. 1347 or before) you
mentioned. >>


If John the godfather, was the "son of John" then why in your quote does it
say "John son of Peter del Hay lifting him from the font;"

John son of Peter lifted him.... not John son of John. Right? or wrong? I'm
quoting what you sent.

Will

Gjest

Re: A Domesday Descent: Hay of Aughton, and of Spaldington

Legg inn av Gjest » 22 sep 2006 05:40:02

Dear Will,

Chronologically, I like my version better, but if you want to be
particular and stick with the document, well,......

' John son of Peter ' [and no. 1.1.2.1.1.1.] it is. Now, whether 1304
or earlier is the best date to use, I am not certain, but this clearly makes
John rather well aged when he wrote his will [23 June 1391]. The only actual
date we have for a sibling of his is for his sister Margaret, stated by their
father Peter as being born at Spaldington on 18 Sept 1310.

Thanks for the catch.

Cheers,

John

Gjest

Re: Book: Who's who in Tudor England

Legg inn av Gjest » 22 sep 2006 07:51:01

Thanks to Leo for turning me on to this book. It arrived today.

I've taken the liberty of posting to wikipedia, a "table of contents" which
I created myself by leafing through the book and typing in each heading.

That then gives a list of everyone who has a biography in the book.

Will

Gjest

Re: Book: Who's who in Tudor England

Legg inn av Gjest » 22 sep 2006 07:55:03

Here is a direct link to what I did

_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who%27s_Who_in_Tudor_England_1485-1603_
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who's_Who_ ... _1485-1603)

Merilyn Pedrick

Re: Book: Who's who in Tudor England

Legg inn av Merilyn Pedrick » 22 sep 2006 09:05:05

Oops - forget I spoke - I've just seen your next e-mail with the link.
Merilyn

-------Original Message-------

From: WJhonson@aol.com
Date: 09/22/06 15:18:38
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Book: Who's who in Tudor England

Thanks to Leo for turning me on to this book. It arrived today.

I've taken the liberty of posting to wikipedia, a "table of contents" which
I created myself by leafing through the book and typing in each heading.

That then gives a list of everyone who has a biography in the book.

Will

Merilyn Pedrick

Re: Book: Who's who in Tudor England

Legg inn av Merilyn Pedrick » 22 sep 2006 09:06:02

Hi Will
Any chance you could provide a link to the book?
Thanks.
Merilyn Pedrick


-------Original Message-------

From: WJhonson@aol.com
Date: 09/22/06 15:18:38
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Book: Who's who in Tudor England

Thanks to Leo for turning me on to this book. It arrived today.

I've taken the liberty of posting to wikipedia, a "table of contents" which
I created myself by leafing through the book and typing in each heading.

That then gives a list of everyone who has a biography in the book.

Will

Gjest

Re: Kendal, Gospatrick, Samlesbury

Legg inn av Gjest » 22 sep 2006 18:46:01

In a message dated 9/22/2006 9:30:21 AM Pacific Standard Time,
designeconomic@yahoo.com writes:

Information derived from a number of sources and
authorities that may or may not be correct.



And that's the rub isn't it? I remember discussing this family to death
several months ago and the final upshot was, we need more documents. What's out
there doesn't allow a clear recreation.
Will

Gjest

Re: The Family Hotman

Legg inn av Gjest » 22 sep 2006 19:52:02

In a message dated 9/22/2006 10:17:15 AM Pacific Standard Time,
WJhonson@aol.com writes:

At any rate, in a footnote in this new book they say something I've never
seen before. In discussing how certain letters got collected together they
say
"Jean Hotman's grandson(?) Vincent Hotman d 1683, seigneur de Fontenay (son
of T. Hotman, "treasurer of France"), who married Marguerite Colbert, sister
of Louis XIV's minister".


Just another note. There appear to be dueling sources on who Vincent's
parents were.
Some of the sources are saying "Timoleon" and some are saying it was
Francois Hotman de la Tour who had married Madeleine de Brosse (in 1634).

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: William de Fresney, father-in-law of Robert Aguillon

Legg inn av Gjest » 22 sep 2006 21:55:17

WJhonson@aol.com schrieb:

The only chronology I can currently hang on the family is that Leo is showing
that Batholomew, 1st Baron Badlesmere and son of Joan "FitzBernard" (or Filia
Ralph), herself the daughter of this Joan Aquillon you mentioned, was,
Bartholomew, born in 1275.

But maybe these deeds you cited have associated dates?

Not on PROCAT, sadly.

ODNB gives a birthdate of circa 1210 for Giles Argentein, husband of
Margery Aguillon, and a birthdate of circa 1241 for their son and heir
Reginald (who was thus the first cousin of Lord Badlesmere's mother).

Gjest

Re: William de Fresney, father-in-law of Robert Aguillon

Legg inn av Gjest » 22 sep 2006 22:12:48

Ther...@aol.com schrieb:

Friday, 22 September, 2006


Dear Michael, John et al.,

The de Fresney (de Fraxino) family was probably fairly
widespread in England (as well as in France) in the early
13th century. There was an Odo 'Rufus' de Fraxineto who
witnessed a charter of William I, ca. 1080 (Bates, RRAN p.
802), and several individuals of that name for whom quite a
bit of research may lead to connections.

I did note one in the Hundred Rolls that William de
Fraxino, and Reynold (a brother, or father ?) having made
gifts to the abbey of Biddlesdon (Bucks.) of lands in
Thornborough, Bucks. before 1278:

' Again the same abbot holds of the gift of Roger
Foliot a half hide and a virgate, and Roger himself held
of Reynold de Fraxino, and Reynold held of John son of
Alan, and he of the lord the King in chief.
' Againk the same abbot holds of the gift of William
de Fraxino and his ancestors a hide of land, and they held
of John son of Alan, and he of the lord the King in
chief. ' [1]


I should also note, re: Duncan de Lascelles and his wife
Christiana, she was evidently misidentified by Dugdale. She
was a daughter and coheir of Waldeve fitz Gospatric, of
Bolton and Bassenthwaite: her lands included Bassenthwaite
and Bolton, co. Cumbs. [cf. SP III:245]

Chronologically, there is some potential here. Duncan
de Lasceles did live in the early 13th century, as shown in
the following extract from Bain:

Notes & Queries provides much further information, but notes
Christiana's apparent links with the de Windsors (she refers to her
brother as Walter de Windsor):

nq.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/issue_pdf/frontmatter_pdf/s10-II/39.pdf

VCH Bucks has further material, sub Burnham, noting that Walter Fitz
Other's manor there passed to Duncan & Christiana de Lascelles equally
with Ralph Hodeng (citing the Pipe Roll of 13 John). This division is
said to have taken place on the death of the younger William de Windsor
circa 1204.

This is a right mess - just like the rest of the de Windsor/Hastings
business. Perhaps we might hope that this offers some further clues to
that great conundrum?

Gjest

Re: William de Fresney, father-in-law of Robert Aguillon

Legg inn av Gjest » 22 sep 2006 22:41:02

The only chronology I can currently hang on the family is that Leo is showing
that Batholomew, 1st Baron Badlesmere and son of Joan "FitzBernard" (or Filia
Ralph), herself the daughter of this Joan Aquillon you mentioned, was,
Bartholomew, born in 1275.

But maybe these deeds you cited have associated dates?
Thanks
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: William de Fresney, father-in-law of Robert Aguillon

Legg inn av Gjest » 22 sep 2006 23:01:02

Friday, 22 September, 2006


Dear Michael, John et al.,

The de Fresney (de Fraxino) family was probably fairly
widespread in England (as well as in France) in the early
13th century. There was an Odo 'Rufus' de Fraxineto who
witnessed a charter of William I, ca. 1080 (Bates, RRAN p.
802), and several individuals of that name for whom quite a
bit of research may lead to connections.

I did note one in the Hundred Rolls that William de
Fraxino, and Reynold (a brother, or father ?) having made
gifts to the abbey of Biddlesdon (Bucks.) of lands in
Thornborough, Bucks. before 1278:

' Again the same abbot holds of the gift of Roger
Foliot a half hide and a virgate, and Roger himself held
of Reynold de Fraxino, and Reynold held of John son of
Alan, and he of the lord the King in chief.
' Againk the same abbot holds of the gift of William
de Fraxino and his ancestors a hide of land, and they held
of John son of Alan, and he of the lord the King in
chief. ' [1]


I should also note, re: Duncan de Lascelles and his wife
Christiana, she was evidently misidentified by Dugdale. She
was a daughter and coheir of Waldeve fitz Gospatric, of
Bolton and Bassenthwaite: her lands included Bassenthwaite
and Bolton, co. Cumbs. [cf. SP III:245]

Chronologically, there is some potential here. Duncan
de Lasceles did live in the early 13th century, as shown in
the following extract from Bain:

' 379. Cumberland:- Roger de Lasci, constable of Chester
(Walter Marshall for him) renders his account. New
oblations:- Duncan de Laceles accounts for 2 marks, as
it was recognosced that he arrained from the last
presentation of the church of Boultona, taken before
Roger constable of Chester at Carlisle. He has
delivered into the Treasury 1 mark, and he owes
1 mark. ' [2]


This could be very interesting indeed....

Cheers,

John




NOTES

[1] Bland, English Economic History: Select Documents,
p. 29 (cites Rotuli Hundredorum, II, 350).
See the text at
http://books.google.com/books?vid=0XuzI ... RA1-PA29&l
pg=RA1-PA29&dq=fraxino&ie=ISO-8859-1


[2] Bain, Cal. Docs. Scotland I:63, cites Pipe Roll 7 John,
Rot. 25.

Gjest

Re: William de Fresney, father-in-law of Robert Aguillon

Legg inn av Gjest » 22 sep 2006 23:55:03

In a message dated 9/22/06 2:10:40 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
mjcar@btinternet.com writes:

<< ODNB gives a birthdate of circa 1210 for Giles Argentein, husband of
Margery Aguillon, and a birthdate of circa 1241 for their son and heir
Reginald (who was thus the first cousin of Lord Badlesmere's mother). >>

Thanks for this. Looking into it, helped me connect up the FitzWarin family
through the Argentines and then to the deVeres Earls of Oxford and eventually
to fix a nasty chronologic problem I had placing Hawise de Quincy as daughter
to Saire.

Someone had asked me in passing if they could examine what I had in my
database.
My database is online in the Ancestral World Tree (aka Rootsweb World
Connect) project, the database name is
wjroyals

Will Johnson

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: William de Fresney, father-in-law of Robert Aguillon

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 23 sep 2006 00:51:21

In message of 22 Sep, WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

The only chronology I can currently hang on the family is that Leo is showing
that Batholomew, 1st Baron Badlesmere and son of Joan "FitzBernard" (or Filia
Ralph), herself the daughter of this Joan Aquillon you mentioned, was,
Bartholomew, born in 1275.

And I have a note from CP vol XIV, p. 57, that said Bartholomew was NOT
the son of any Joan FitzBernard.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/

Gjest

Re: Another Plantagenet Descent for Sir Martin Frobisher

Legg inn av Gjest » 23 sep 2006 03:40:03

In a message dated 9/22/06 4:55:58 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
royaldescent@hotmail.com writes:

<< 9) Catherine Ingleby* m. Thomas Wombwell of Wombwell, and had
10) Roger Wombwell of Wombwell (d. 1506-07) m. Catherine Radcliffe, and
had
11) Catherine Wombwell m. Nicholas Drax of Woodhall, and had
12) Katherine Drax m. John Frobisher of Altofts (d. 1543), and had
13) Barnard Frobisher (d. 1542) m. Anne Yorke (d. 1549), and had
14) Sir Martin Frobisher (1535-1594) >>


This is tight but possible
9 Catherine Ingleby born 1443/58
10 Roger Wombwell born 1456/71
11 Catherine Wombwell born 1473/88
12 Katherine Drax born 1486/1501
13 Barnard Frobisher born 1499/1518
14 Martin Frobisher born IN 1535

Thats pretty darn tight!
Will Johnson

Matt Tompkins

Re: William de Fresney, father-in-law of Robert Aguillon

Legg inn av Matt Tompkins » 23 sep 2006 16:49:35

Therav3@aol.com wrote:
I did note one in the Hundred Rolls that William de
Fraxino, and Reynold (a brother, or father ?) having made
gifts to the abbey of Biddlesdon (Bucks.) of lands in
Thornborough, Bucks. before 1278:

' Again the same abbot holds of the gift of Roger
Foliot a half hide and a virgate, and Roger himself held
of Reynold de Fraxino, and Reynold held of John son of
Alan, and he of the lord the King in chief.
' Againk the same abbot holds of the gift of William
de Fraxino and his ancestors a hide of land, and they held
of John son of Alan, and he of the lord the King in
chief. ' [1]


There is a pedigree of this family (de Freyne, Fraxino of Thornborough,
Bucks) in GR Elvey (ed.), Luffield Priory Charters, Pt II,
Buckinghamshire and Northamptonshire Record Societies (1975), p.
lxxiii, along some comments on them in the Introduction and the texts
of a number of documents referring to them.

The pedigree starts with Henry del Freine, fl. 1166, and passes through
Hugh, William (d. 1232), Reginald (d. 1253), William, Ralph and ends
with Henry and Richard, brothers, fl. 1329. The occasional wife and
sibling are added.

Matt Tompkins

Gjest

Re: William de Fresney, father-in-law of Robert Aguillon

Legg inn av Gjest » 23 sep 2006 18:05:55

Matt Tompkins schrieb:

There is a pedigree of this family (de Freyne, Fraxino of Thornborough,
Bucks) in GR Elvey (ed.), Luffield Priory Charters, Pt II,
Buckinghamshire and Northamptonshire Record Societies (1975), p.
lxxiii, along some comments on them in the Introduction and the texts
of a number of documents referring to them.

The pedigree starts with Henry del Freine, fl. 1166, and passes through
Hugh, William (d. 1232), Reginald (d. 1253), William, Ralph and ends
with Henry and Richard, brothers, fl. 1329. The occasional wife and
sibling are added.

Thanks Matt - good find! This seems to show that we can say that
William de Fresney, father of Idonea and Margery, is a different person
to William de Fresney of Thornborough (d 1232), as the latter left a
son and remoter male issue.

Regards, Michael

Robert Forrest

William de Fresney, father-in-law of Robert Aguillon

Legg inn av Robert Forrest » 23 sep 2006 19:20:03

I have not been following this thread, but these notes of mine for Robert Fitz Walter de Hastings and Helewise de Guerres may contain something of interest, in particular Keats-Rohan's comments about Sanders and Round.
Bob Forrest
= = =
Domesday Descendants, Keats-Rohan:
p. 506--
de Hastings, Robert--
Son of William fitz Robert of Hastings and Helewise de Guerres; succeeded his father as lord of Little Easton, Essex, c1162. He d. c1190 leaving a daughter and heiress Alice by his wife Matilda, sister of Hugh de Flamville. Alice m. (1) Ralph of Cornhill (d.s.p. 1199) and (2) Godfrey, brother of the duke of Louvain (PR 13 John, 124), by whom she had issue Matthew de Louvain, who succ. in 1226. Sanders, 130, is unreliable on this family, as are most commentators, especially J. H. Round in Ancestor 2:93. Cf. L. Landon, "The barony of Little Easton and the family of Hastings", TEAS [Trans. Essex Arch. Soc.] 19:174-9.
Red Book of the Exch., 358-9; Round, Ancient Charters, no. 31.
= = =
Sanders, Baronies, p. 130:
Little Easton, Essex--
This manor was held at Domesday by Walter the Deacon. It passed, for reasons unknown, to Robert, younger son of Walter fitz Other, lord of Eton, Bucks (3). Robert d. c1128 leaving William d. 1162-6 (4). William may have left a dau. and h. Isabel.
Isabel m. Robert de Hastings d. c1190 leaving a dau. and h. Alice (5).
Alice m. (1) bef. May 1191 Ralph de Cornhill d. 1199. She m. (2) by 1200 Godfrey de Louvain d. 1226 (6). Matthew I d. 1261 leaving his son Matthew II d. 1302. Thomas, son of Matthew II, d. 1345 (7).
- - - - -
(3) VCH Essex 1:548; RRRAN 2, no. 1556; L. Landon, "The barony of Little Easton and the family of Hastings', in Essex. Arch. Trans. 19:174-9.
(4) RRAN 2:no. 1556. 1159 the sheriff answered for 10 knights' fees of William fitz Robert while in 1162 William paid for 9 and was excused 1. 1166 Robert de Hastings answered for 10 knights' fees de veteri and for 2 1/2 de novo. Later scutages were paid on 10 knights' fees (Pipe Roll 5H2, p. 5; idem, 8H2, p. 71; idem, 13 John, p. 124; Pipe Roll, E. 372/68, Essex and Herts.; idem, E 372/123, Essex and Herts.; Red Book, pp. 29, 358-9).
(5) The records gave no evidence of the way by which these lands passed to Robert de Hastings. It is assumed that William's lands passed to a dau. Isabel as Robert Hastings and Isabel his wife are mentioned 1158-62 (C.D. Fr., no. 186). Alice, dau. and h. of Robert, seems to have been in control of the lands in May 1191 (Feet of Fines H2 and R1, P.R. Soc. 17, no. 8; CRR 1:61).
(6) Feet of Fines, loc. cit.; Ex. F.R. 1:141; Pipe Roll 1 John p. 104; idem, 2 John, pp. 48, 51; Pipe Roll E 372/70, Essex and Herts. Matthew I was charged L50 relief. See note 7...
7. Ex. F. R. ii, 362; CIPM 1:523; idem, 4:97; idem, 8:585...Matthew I held Little Easton of the king by barony...
= = =
Monasticon Anglicanum 6:972:
Priory of Malton, in Yorkshire--
Num. XI.
Confirmatio Hugonis de Flamvill, filii praefati Rogeri, de eadem.
Cunctis Christi fidelibus Hugo de Flamvill salutem...quam ecclesiam pater meus eidem loco antea dedit, et carta sua confirmavit, in puram et perpetuam elemosinam; et quam etiam ecclesiam ego ipse concessi et confirmavi praedictae elemosinariae antequam sororem meam Matildem Flamvill Roberto de Hastinges in matrimonium dederam, ut habeant perpetuoque possideant in liberam et perpetuam elemosinam, pro salute animae meae, et omnium antecessorum meorum...
==========================

Gjest

Re: use of word, "pretender"

Legg inn av Gjest » 24 sep 2006 16:00:03

Dear David , Diana and others,
The Perkin Warbeck case is
especially interesting. "Richard IV" caused quite a large ruckus, was recieved by
King James IV of the Scots and Emperor Maximilian I. He was taken in battle and
Henry VII has him admit publicly that He is a false claimant and puts him to
work in the royal kitchens. So, as with many things about the Tudor period,
what was the truth and what was the lie ? Henry VII fudged "the truth"
concerning his right as the Beauforts through whom He claimed the throne had been
legitimated for all purposes save that of succession, yet this Welsh weasel managed
to convince a large number of people to support him anyway and after narrowly
escaping death at King Richard III`s hands at Bosworth, his men killed that
King and Henry retrieved the crown and after a fashion convinced King Edward
IV`s daughter to legitimate his tenuous hold on the crown and began beheading
the other claimants. Yet Warbeck was never executed. I doubt Henry VII`s great
mercy had much to do with it, as I doubt He possessed any. So probably the
Queen convinced him (or /and her brother)that it would be best for him if Richard
took the name Perkin Warbeck and were sent to the kitchens.
Sincerely,

James W Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA

Peter Stewart

Re: Otgiva of Luxemburg

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 25 sep 2006 13:53:15

<Therav3@aol.com> wrote in message news:564.66106e1.32492111@aol.com...
Monday, 25 September, 2006


Dear Stewart, Peter, et al.,

In addition to the evidence you cite concerning the likely
descent of Otgiva of Luxembourg from Eadgifu, there was a citation
provided some time ago by Hans Vogels which provides further
indirect support for this relationship:

"Id. cec. dom. Hadewich comitissa, mater Chunigundis
imperatoricis. Agnes imperatrix ejus consanguinea." [1]

Other descents have been postulated to explain this relationship. Hadwig may
have been a Saxon lady, perhaps from the Ottonian family. Depoin speculated
that she was daughter of Duke Giselbert of Lorrain & Gerberga of Saxony,
though this was refuted by Renn. Another suggestion is that she was daughter
of Count Everard II of Hamaland by his wife Amalrada, again with imperial
connections.

If Hedwig, wife of Siegfried, mother of the empress Cunigunda
and apparent grandmother of Otgiva (whether Otgiva was the daughter
of Frederick or Giselbert) was a descent of Eadgifu, she would have
been closely related to Agnes of Poitou (wife of the emperor Henry
III) as shown below [the conjectured descent of Hedwig shown
.......]. An interesting possibility also arises: that the name
Hedwig (already current in the Ottonian family of Gerberga) was
used/conflated with Eadgifu to leave us with the rendering
Odgiva/Otgiva, as suggested below.

This is an unnecessary stretch - no woman named Hadwig occurs as "Odvisa" as
far as I'm aware, but rather as Advisa, and there is no linguistic warrant
for either the substitution of initial O for (H)A or the reversal of order
with the consonants g and w/v in these names. Queen Eadgifu was called
"Orgiva" (by Witger) and "Eadgiva" (by a continuator of Ado of Vienne), so
that O(t)giva represent no stretch from these variants.

Charles III 'the Simple' = Ædgiva/EADGIFU of England
I________________
I
1) Giselbert = Gerberga = 2) [939] Louis IV
D of Lorraine I of Saxony : fl. 921-954
k. 939 I :
____________I :......
I :
Alberada = Raynald :
______I C of Roucy :
I :
Ermentrude = 2) Otto-William HEDWIG [ "Odgiva" ? ]
I C of Mâcon = Siegfried of Luxembourg
________I ______I_________________
I I I I
Agnes = Guillaume V Giselbert Frederick CUNIGUNDA
I D of Aquitaine : : = Henry II
____I :...........:
I :
AGNES ODGIVA
'imperatrix' = Baldwin IV
= Henry III of Flanders


There is no other close Carolingian ancestry in common between
Agnes of Poitou and Cunigunda: a common descent from Gerberga of
Saxony is the sole apparent answer to the relationship between
these two.

The chronology would be a bit less tight if Hedwig, wife of
Siegfried of Luxembourg were a daughter (and not a granddaughter)
of Louis IV. I show there was a daughter of Louis IV not otherwise
accounted for [see ES I Tafel 6]. The absence of Carolingian or
Ottonian names amongst the progeny of Siegfried and Hedwig is
somewhat bothersome - only the name Henry reflects a connection.
At the same time, I note among the issue of Matilda and Conrad
'the Pacific', besides Matilda only the name Gerberga (Matilda's
mother) was given to a child of theirs.

Apart from other considerations - especially the extreme unlikelihood of
such a Carolingian princess going missing - the chronology could only work
if Hedwig was a daughter of King Louis IV: the one not otherwise accounted
for (presumably because she died as an infant or child) was baptised in the
summer of 948, and must have been born a few monthes earlier to allow for
her brother Louis to be born in December of the same year. Count Sigfrid
and Hedwig were having children by ca 960 - their son Heinric occurs in 964
and their daughter Liutgard was married ca 980. (I don't have time to check
the marriages of her descendants, but would be surprised if there isn't a
problem of consanginity with this proposal about Hedwig's origin further
down the lineage.)

Peter Stewart

Gjest

Re: Otgiva of Luxemburg

Legg inn av Gjest » 25 sep 2006 14:20:05

Monday, 25 September, 2006


Dear Stewart, Peter, et al.,

In addition to the evidence you cite concerning the likely
descent of Otgiva of Luxembourg from Eadgifu, there was a citation
provided some time ago by Hans Vogels which provides further
indirect support for this relationship:

"Id. cec. dom. Hadewich comitissa, mater Chunigundis
imperatoricis. Agnes imperatrix ejus consanguinea." [1]

If Hedwig, wife of Siegfried, mother of the empress Cunigunda
and apparent grandmother of Otgiva (whether Otgiva was the daughter
of Frederick or Giselbert) was a descent of Eadgifu, she would have
been closely related to Agnes of Poitou (wife of the emperor Henry
III) as shown below [the conjectured descent of Hedwig shown
.......]. An interesting possibility also arises: that the name
Hedwig (already current in the Ottonian family of Gerberga) was
used/conflated with Eadgifu to leave us with the rendering
Odgiva/Otgiva, as suggested below.


Charles III 'the Simple' = Ædgiva/EADGIFU of England
I________________
I
1) Giselbert = Gerberga = 2) [939] Louis IV
D of Lorraine I of Saxony : fl. 921-954
k. 939 I :
____________I :......
I :
Alberada = Raynald :
______I C of Roucy :
I :
Ermentrude = 2) Otto-William HEDWIG [ "Odgiva" ? ]
I C of Mâcon = Siegfried of Luxembourg
________I ______I_________________
I I I I
Agnes = Guillaume V Giselbert Frederick CUNIGUNDA
I D of Aquitaine : : = Henry II
____I :...........:
I :
AGNES ODGIVA
'imperatrix' = Baldwin IV
= Henry III of Flanders


There is no other close Carolingian ancestry in common between
Agnes of Poitou and Cunigunda: a common descent from Gerberga of
Saxony is the sole apparent answer to the relationship between
these two.

The chronology would be a bit less tight if Hedwig, wife of
Siegfried of Luxembourg were a daughter (and not a granddaughter)
of Louis IV. I show there was a daughter of Louis IV not otherwise
accounted for [see ES I Tafel 6]. The absence of Carolingian or
Ottonian names amongst the progeny of Siegfried and Hedwig is
somewhat bothersome - only the name Henry reflects a connection.
At the same time, I note among the issue of Matilda and Conrad
'the Pacific', besides Matilda only the name Gerberga (Matilda's
mother) was given to a child of theirs.

There is the matter of consanguinity between Siegfried and a
daughter of Louis IV (3rd-3rd degree) or a granddaughter of Louis
IV (3rd-4th degree). This relationship would likely not have
escaped notice, and certainly deserves further discussion.

Cheers,

John



NOTES

[1] Hans Vogels, <Re: Siegfried of Luxembourg>, SGM, 24 April
2003, citing MGH (Monumenta Germaniae Historica) SS IV, p. 791.

Gjest

Re: Kendal, Gospatrick, Samlesbury

Legg inn av Gjest » 25 sep 2006 18:36:02

In a message dated 9/25/2006 9:26:23 AM Pacific Standard Time,
maxwellfindlater@hotmail.com writes:

He had many sons, but two, Thomas of Colvend and Gilbert of Southwick
are those which seem to matter. They were the progenitors of the
Curwen family (from Colvend), but they returned to Cumbria when England
and Scotland fell out, so losing Colvend and Southwick.


So you mean that this family has no proven descendents today?
That they vanished?

D. Spencer Hines

Re: David Cameron's Wife -- Royal Genealogy?

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 25 sep 2006 19:54:46

So you don't know that she is descended from a specific Royal Bastard -- you
just made that up.

David Cameron's wife.

DSH

"William Black" <william.black@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:ef95qv$3c3$2@news.freedom2surf.net...
"D. Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:vXTRg.408$B16.4156@eagle.america.net...

What's her Royal Genealogy look like?

Who cares?

Which Royal Bastard?

There are so many, especially with that particular king...

High Tory -- Hmmmmmm...So He's A Real Brit.

I really wouldn't describe a member of the 'Bullingdon' as that.

'A degenerate over-privileged tosser' would be closer to the truth.

--
William Black

John Brandon

Re: David Cameron's Wife -- Royal Genealogy?

Legg inn av John Brandon » 25 sep 2006 20:23:08

D. Spencer Hines wrote:
So you don't know that she is descended from a specific Royal Bastard -- you
just made that up.

Spencer, stop being a fool (not to mention all this lousy
cross-posting). David Cameron himself is known to be a descendant of
either George IV or William IV. Think before you "insert foot here."

William Black

Re: David Cameron's Wife -- Royal Genealogy?

Legg inn av William Black » 25 sep 2006 20:33:01

"D. Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:5CVRg.417$B16.4023@eagle.america.net...
So you don't know that she is descended from a specific Royal Bastard --
you
just made that up.

David Cameron's wife.

She isn't you ignorant imbecile.

He is.

He's descended from Elizabeth FitzClarance, the acknowledged bastard of
William IV, and his mistress Dorothy Jordan.

I though you were supposed to know something about the psudo science of
genealogy.

You obviously don't know how to do a basic search on the net because it took
me less than two minutes.

--
William Black

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

Birds

Re: Otgiva of Luxemburg

Legg inn av Birds » 25 sep 2006 21:02:41

Peter Stewart schreef:

[snip]
Apart from other considerations - especially the extreme unlikelihood of
such a Carolingian princess going missing - the chronology could only work
if Hedwig was a daughter of King Louis IV: the one not otherwise accounted
for (presumably because she died as an infant or child) was baptised in the
summer of 948, and must have been born a few monthes earlier to allow for
her brother Louis to be born in December of the same year. Count Sigfrid
and Hedwig were having children by ca 960 - their son Heinric occurs in 964
and their daughter Liutgard was married ca 980. (I don't have time to check
the marriages of her descendants, but would be surprised if there isn't a
problem of consanginity with this proposal about Hedwig's origin further
down the lineage.)

Peter Stewart

Eduard Hlawitschka, "War Graf Siegfried I. von Luxemburg ein Sohn
Herzog Giselberts van Lothringen? Ein Diskussionsbeitrag", in:
Forschungsbeiträge der Geisteswissenschaftlichen Klasse. Schriften der
Sudetendeutschen Akademie der Wisschaften und Künste, Band 23,
München 2002, wrote a nice demolition of an theory proposed by René
Klein in 1998. This theory was previously discussed here on the
newsgroup.

Hlawitschka mentions the fact that in 964 Siegfried, his wife Hadwig
and their son Heinrich are mentioned. Heinrich was at that time surely
no longer a small child. He could easily have reached the age of
maturity and therefore been born around 950.

So far Hlawitschka. Heinrich could have been fourteen but need not have
been. His minimal age at that time could have been at least seven
years. Seven being the minimal age when children could confirm actions
when their father, mother or gardian made deeds and gifts or made other
decisions important for them. Drs. T. Klaversma points out that this
fase started when the children were no longer "infans", so minimaly
seven years of age, the time when they came to the years of
distinction/discretion.

The Dutchman Klaversma - in a dicussion with the German Severin Corsten
- points to a charter of 1173 in which duke Godfried III of Brabant and
his sons Hendrik and Albert made a memorial donation for their wife and
mother. As it is known that Hendrik was born in 1265 he could have been
eight and his brother seven years at most. This and more can be read in
his paper "Wassenberg en de hertogen van Limburg in de twaalfde eeuw",
in: De Maasgouw jrg. CVII (1988), 41-47.

That puts the birth of Heinrich minimaly at 957. Counts Siegfrieds
older brother Friedrich got engaged in 951 and married 954 Beatrix
daughter of Hugh of Francia. Siegfried being the youngest brother
(having and older brother Giselbert) might have thus have married in
the period between 951 and 957.

Hans Vogels

Birds

Re: Otgiva of Luxemburg

Legg inn av Birds » 25 sep 2006 21:23:31

Correction:
The Dutchman Klaversma - in a dicussion with the German Severin Corsten
- points to a charter of 1173 in which duke Godfried III of Brabant and
his sons Hendrik and Albert made a memorial donation for their wife and
mother. As it is known that Hendrik was born in 1165 he could have been
eight and his brother seven years at most. This and more can be read in
his paper "Wassenberg en de hertogen van Limburg in de twaalfde eeuw",
in: De Maasgouw jrg. CVII (1988), 41-47.

Addition:
With a marriage for count Siegfried in the mid fifties, his son count
Giselbert (+ 1004) could be older then previously presumed.

As one certainly knows the name Konrad pops up in a younger Luxemburger
generation. Konrad (1059 - + 1088), son of Giselbert (1035 - 1057),
son of Friedrich + 1019, son of count Siegfried + 988.

Hans Vogels


Birds schreef:

Peter Stewart schreef:

[snip]

Apart from other considerations - especially the extreme unlikelihood of
such a Carolingian princess going missing - the chronology could only work
if Hedwig was a daughter of King Louis IV: the one not otherwise accounted
for (presumably because she died as an infant or child) was baptised in the
summer of 948, and must have been born a few monthes earlier to allow for
her brother Louis to be born in December of the same year. Count Sigfrid
and Hedwig were having children by ca 960 - their son Heinric occurs in 964
and their daughter Liutgard was married ca 980. (I don't have time to check
the marriages of her descendants, but would be surprised if there isn't a
problem of consanginity with this proposal about Hedwig's origin further
down the lineage.)

Peter Stewart

Eduard Hlawitschka, "War Graf Siegfried I. von Luxemburg ein Sohn
Herzog Giselberts van Lothringen? Ein Diskussionsbeitrag", in:
Forschungsbeiträge der Geisteswissenschaftlichen Klasse. Schriften der
Sudetendeutschen Akademie der Wisschaften und Künste, Band 23,
München 2002, wrote a nice demolition of an theory proposed by René
Klein in 1998. This theory was previously discussed here on the
newsgroup.

Hlawitschka mentions the fact that in 964 Siegfried, his wife Hadwig
and their son Heinrich are mentioned. Heinrich was at that time surely
no longer a small child. He could easily have reached the age of
maturity and therefore been born around 950.

So far Hlawitschka. Heinrich could have been fourteen but need not have
been. His minimal age at that time could have been at least seven
years. Seven being the minimal age when children could confirm actions
when their father, mother or gardian made deeds and gifts or made other
decisions important for them. Drs. T. Klaversma points out that this
fase started when the children were no longer "infans", so minimaly
seven years of age, the time when they came to the years of
distinction/discretion.

The Dutchman Klaversma - in a dicussion with the German Severin Corsten
- points to a charter of 1173 in which duke Godfried III of Brabant and
his sons Hendrik and Albert made a memorial donation for their wife and
mother. As it is known that Hendrik was born in 1265 he could have been
eight and his brother seven years at most. This and more can be read in
his paper "Wassenberg en de hertogen van Limburg in de twaalfde eeuw",
in: De Maasgouw jrg. CVII (1988), 41-47.

That puts the birth of Heinrich minimaly at 957. Counts Siegfrieds
older brother Friedrich got engaged in 951 and married 954 Beatrix
daughter of Hugh of Francia. Siegfried being the youngest brother
(having and older brother Giselbert) might have thus have married in
the period between 951 and 957.

Hans Vogels

Birds

Re: Otgiva of Luxemburg

Legg inn av Birds » 25 sep 2006 21:44:49

Hi John,

Eduard Hlawitschka assumes that Hadwig, wife of count Siegfried is the
key to the Saxon possessions of the younger Luxemburgers, "einen
bezeichnenden Hinweis auf die Herkumft Hadewigs, von der bisher
überhaubt nichts bekannt ist".

See:
Eduard Hlawitschka, "War Graf Siegfried I. von Luxemburg ein Sohn
Herzog Giselberts van Lothringen? Ein Diskussionsbeitrag", in:
Forschungsbeiträge der Geisteswissenschaftlichen Klasse. Schriften der
Sudetendeutschen Akademie der Wisschaften und Künste, Band 23,
München 2002.

Several German researchers have tried to tie Hadwig to a Saxon dynasty
like for instance Northeim.
See:
http://www.genealogie-mittelalter.de/
luxemburger/hadwig_von_lothringen_graefin_993/hadwig_von_lothringen_graefin_von_luxemburg_+_993.html

I guess that a decision will remain open.

Hans Vogels


Therav3@aol.com schreef:

Monday, 25 September, 2006


Dear Stewart, Peter, et al.,

In addition to the evidence you cite concerning the likely
descent of Otgiva of Luxembourg from Eadgifu, there was a citation
provided some time ago by Hans Vogels which provides further
indirect support for this relationship:

"Id. cec. dom. Hadewich comitissa, mater Chunigundis
imperatoricis. Agnes imperatrix ejus consanguinea." [1]

If Hedwig, wife of Siegfried, mother of the empress Cunigunda
and apparent grandmother of Otgiva (whether Otgiva was the daughter
of Frederick or Giselbert) was a descent of Eadgifu, she would have
been closely related to Agnes of Poitou (wife of the emperor Henry
III) as shown below [the conjectured descent of Hedwig shown
.......]. An interesting possibility also arises: that the name
Hedwig (already current in the Ottonian family of Gerberga) was
used/conflated with Eadgifu to leave us with the rendering
Odgiva/Otgiva, as suggested below.


Charles III 'the Simple' = Ædgiva/EADGIFU of England
I________________
I
1) Giselbert = Gerberga = 2) [939] Louis IV
D of Lorraine I of Saxony : fl. 921-954
k. 939 I :
____________I :......
I :
Alberada = Raynald :
______I C of Roucy :
I :
Ermentrude = 2) Otto-William HEDWIG [ "Odgiva" ? ]
I C of Mâcon = Siegfried of Luxembourg
________I ______I_________________
I I I I
Agnes = Guillaume V Giselbert Frederick CUNIGUNDA
I D of Aquitaine : : = Henry II
____I :...........:
I :
AGNES ODGIVA
'imperatrix' = Baldwin IV
= Henry III of Flanders


There is no other close Carolingian ancestry in common between
Agnes of Poitou and Cunigunda: a common descent from Gerberga of
Saxony is the sole apparent answer to the relationship between
these two.

The chronology would be a bit less tight if Hedwig, wife of
Siegfried of Luxembourg were a daughter (and not a granddaughter)
of Louis IV. I show there was a daughter of Louis IV not otherwise
accounted for [see ES I Tafel 6]. The absence of Carolingian or
Ottonian names amongst the progeny of Siegfried and Hedwig is
somewhat bothersome - only the name Henry reflects a connection.
At the same time, I note among the issue of Matilda and Conrad
'the Pacific', besides Matilda only the name Gerberga (Matilda's
mother) was given to a child of theirs.

There is the matter of consanguinity between Siegfried and a
daughter of Louis IV (3rd-3rd degree) or a granddaughter of Louis
IV (3rd-4th degree). This relationship would likely not have
escaped notice, and certainly deserves further discussion.

Cheers,

John



NOTES

[1] Hans Vogels, <Re: Siegfried of Luxembourg>, SGM, 24 April
2003, citing MGH (Monumenta Germaniae Historica) SS IV, p. 791.

Gjest

Re: Sir Adam de Gesemuth or Jesmond

Legg inn av Gjest » 25 sep 2006 22:20:03

In a message dated 9/24/06 3:55:53 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
maxwellfindlater@hotmail.com writes:

<< and I read that he
was sheriff and was married to Christina de Ireby, who in 1273 married
Robert Bruce the Competitor on his return from crusade. >>

What is the source for the exact marriage date of Christina to Robert Bruce?
Thanks
Will Johnson

hippo

Re: David Cameron's Wife -- Royal Genealogy?

Legg inn av hippo » 25 sep 2006 22:31:43

"William Black" wrote in message

He's descended from Elizabeth FitzClarance, the acknowledged bastard of
William IV, and his mistress Dorothy Jordan.

I'm descended from Edward III through John of Gaunt and Henry Cardinal
Beaufort. Does that make me a despised aristocrat? How far back does the
onus of aristocracy extend? -the Troll

Simon Pugh

Re: David Cameron's Wife -- Royal Genealogy?

Legg inn av Simon Pugh » 25 sep 2006 22:44:26

In message <ef9as2$6ud$1@news.freedom2surf.net>, William Black
<william.black@hotmail.co.uk> writes
"D. Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:5CVRg.417$B16.4023@eagle.america.net...
So you don't know that she is descended from a specific Royal Bastard --
you
just made that up.

David Cameron's wife.

She isn't you ignorant imbecile.

He is.

He's descended from Elizabeth FitzClarance, the acknowledged bastard of
William IV, and his mistress Dorothy Jordan.

Gillray did a famous cartoon of this called Lubber's Hole or the Crack'd
Jordan. Jordan being slang for chamber pot.

Unfortunately this was the best image I could find quickly.
http://tinyurl.com/lquuc

I though you were supposed to know something about the psudo science of
genealogy.

You obviously don't know how to do a basic search on the net because it took
me less than two minutes.


--
Simon Pugh
Remove X for mail

William Black

Re: David Cameron's Wife -- Royal Genealogy?

Legg inn av William Black » 25 sep 2006 23:15:52

"hippo" <hippo@south-sudan.net> wrote in message
news:12hgim3jk8p7715@corp.supernews.com...
"William Black" wrote in message

He's descended from Elizabeth FitzClarance, the acknowledged bastard of
William IV, and his mistress Dorothy Jordan.

I'm descended from Edward III through John of Gaunt and Henry Cardinal
Beaufort.

No you're not.

Not unless you're very exceptional anyway.

Medieval genealogies are notoriously inaccurate.

"Who's your daddy then?" is not a rhetorical question here...

--
William Black

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

Peter Stewart

Re: Otgiva of Luxemburg

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 25 sep 2006 23:36:41

"Birds" <h.vogels6@chello.nl> wrote in message
news:1159214561.367619.139750@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

Eduard Hlawitschka, "War Graf Siegfried I. von Luxemburg ein Sohn
Herzog Giselberts van Lothringen? Ein Diskussionsbeitrag", in:
Forschungsbeiträge der Geisteswissenschaftlichen Klasse. Schriften der
Sudetendeutschen Akademie der Wisschaften und Künste, Band 23,
München 2002, wrote a nice demolition of an theory proposed by René
Klein in 1998. This theory was previously discussed here on the
newsgroup.

Hlawitschka mentions the fact that in 964 Siegfried, his wife Hadwig
and their son Heinrich are mentioned. Heinrich was at that time surely
no longer a small child. He could easily have reached the age of
maturity and therefore been born around 950.

So far Hlawitschka. Heinrich could have been fourteen but need not have
been. His minimal age at that time could have been at least seven
years. Seven being the minimal age when children could confirm actions
when their father, mother or gardian made deeds and gifts or made other
decisions important for them. Drs. T. Klaversma points out that this
fase started when the children were no longer "infans", so minimaly
seven years of age, the time when they came to the years of
distinction/discretion.

This theory may have come to be applied practically later on, but in the
10th and 11th centuries it was not observed as a rule.

Babies occur gibing assent to charters of their parents and siblings -
assuming they were actually present and that their names were not just added
by a copyist after the fact, the document was held to their touch to signify
assent.

Presumably if the baby flinched and/or howled it was not taken as
registering an objection, because as you say the age of discretion had not
been reached.

Peter Stewart

hippo

Re: David Cameron's Wife -- Royal Genealogy?

Legg inn av hippo » 26 sep 2006 00:01:19

"William Black" wrote in message

"hippo" wrote in message

He's descended from Elizabeth FitzClarance, the acknowledged bastard
of
William IV, and his mistress Dorothy Jordan.

I'm descended from Edward III through John of Gaunt and Henry Cardinal
Beaufort.

No you're not.

Not unless you're very exceptional anyway.

Medieval genealogies are notoriously inaccurate.

"Who's your daddy then?" is not a rhetorical question here...

You are right. What happened to royal wives when they became pregnant while
the boss was out of the country? -the Troll

Gjest

Re: Henry Sothill / Joan FitzWilliam (Sothill Redux)

Legg inn av Gjest » 26 sep 2006 01:16:02

Is this then the corrected line
Henry Sothill d bef 1377 married Dionysia and had issue
Henry Sothill d aft 1410 wife unknown and had issue
Henry Sothill b abt 1365 d 1421 and had issue

Henry Sothill d 1430/56 mar 1413 Joan FitzWilliam dau of William FitzWilliam,
Lord of Emley by his wife Maud Cromwell

and had issue
John Sothill mar Alice Mauleverer and had issue
John Sothill had issue
John Sothill mar Alison Neville and had issue
Alice Sothill mar John Beaumont of Lascelles Hall (d 1541/2)

D. Spencer Hines

Re: David Cameron's Wife -- Royal Genealogy?

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 26 sep 2006 01:25:12

Hilarious!

Wee Willie Black posted this, referring to David Cameron:

He's the son of a stockbroker who married the daughter of a baronet
descended from a royal bastard, educated at Eaton [sic] and Oxford where
he took a first in PPE and was a member of the 'Bullingdon'.

Indicating he felt Cameron's WIFE is descended from a Royal Bastard.

NOW he's trying to run away from his own gibberish and claim it is CAMERON
himself he was talking about ---- ONLY.

Cameron TOO has a Royal Bastard Descent -- allegedly.

They don't come any more stupid and disingenuous than Wee Willie Black.

He writes poorly too.

One often wonders if English is his first language or whether he would be
more comfortable in German.

DSH

"William Black" <william.black@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:ef9as2$6ud$1@news.freedom2surf.net...
"D. Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:5CVRg.417$B16.4023@eagle.america.net...

So you don't know that she is descended from a specific Royal Bastard --
you just made that up.

David Cameron's wife.

She isn't you ignorant imbecile.

Turns out she indeed IS, reportedly -- from a bastard of CHARLES II --
similar to Diana, Princess of Wales, who had at least TWO such descents,
from different mistresses of Charles II.

Wee Willie Black takes another Massive Pratfall.

KAWHOMP!!!

KERSPLAT!!!

[He's a fatty.]

He is.

He's descended from Elizabeth FitzClarance, [sic] the acknowledged
bastard of William IV, and his mistress Dorothy Jordan.

I though [sic] you were supposed to know something about the psudo [sic]
science of
genealogy.

You obviously don't know how to do a basic search on the net because it
took me less than two minutes.

--
William Black

D. Spencer Hines

Re: David Cameron's Wife -- Royal Genealogy?

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 26 sep 2006 01:29:50

Hilarious!

So, you don't know the specifics either -- about Cameron's wife or him --
you can't even identify the correct King.

But you thought you'd stick your oar and your arse in anyway.

Par For The Course With You.

Any SMART Brits Here Who Know What They Are Talking About?

DSH

"John Brandon" <starbuck95@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1159212188.748249.227350@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...

D. Spencer Hines wrote:

So you don't know that she is descended from a specific Royal Bastard --
you just made that up.

Spencer, stop being a fool (not to mention all this lousy
cross-posting). David Cameron himself is known to be a descendant of
either George IV or William IV. Think before you "insert foot here."

D. Spencer Hines

Re: David Cameron's Wife -- Royal Genealogy?

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 26 sep 2006 01:32:09

Hilarious!

Henry de Beaufort was a bastard of John of Gaunt.

So, "Hippo" has at least one Royal Bastard Descent too -- there are probably
others.

Deeeeelightful!

Abigail Smith Adams [1744-1818], the wife of John Adams, our Second
President of the United States was also a descendant of Henry de Beaufort.

So, she and "Hippo" are related.

Abigail Adams was also the mother of John Quincy Adams -- our Sixth
President.

John and John Quincy were the only other father-son Presidential duo before
Bush 41 and Bush 43.

DSH

"hippo" <hippo@south-sudan.net> wrote in message
news:12hgim3jk8p7715@corp.supernews.com...
"William Black" wrote in message

He's descended from Elizabeth FitzClarance, the acknowledged bastard of
William IV, and his mistress Dorothy Jordan.

I'm descended from Edward III through John of Gaunt and Henry Cardinal
Beaufort. Does that make me a despised aristocrat? How far back does the
onus of aristocracy extend? -the Troll

hippo

Re: David Cameron's Wife -- Royal Genealogy?

Legg inn av hippo » 26 sep 2006 02:00:58

"D. Spencer Hines" wrote in message

Henry de Beaufort was a bastard of John of Gaunt.

So, "Hippo" has at least one Royal Bastard Descent too -- there are
probably
others.

Yup, his illegitimate daughter Jane Beaufort. -the Troll

D. Spencer Hines

Re: David Cameron's Wife -- Royal Genealogy?

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 26 sep 2006 03:00:03

"Hippo's" alleged ancestor, Henry de Beaufort [c. 1375-1447] who was Bishop
of Lincoln 1398, Bishop of Winchester 1405, Cardinal St. Eusebius 1417, and
Lord Chancellor -- was also the principal mentor to and royal trainer of
Henry V, so he could assume his royal duties in the superb fashion which he
demonstrated as one of England's Great Kings and Queens.

Cardinal de Beaufort also participated in the trial of Joan of Arc at Rouen
on 24 May 1431 -- at which she was condemned and then burned at the stake.

No wonder "Hippo" and the French don't get along all that well. <g>

The mother of Cardinal de Beaufort's daughter Joan [Jane], whom "Hippo"
mentions infra was said to have been Alice FitzAlan, wife of John
Cherleton, 4th Lord Cherleton of Powis [1362 - 19 October 1401, sine prole].

Lady Alice was also a 2nd great-granddaughter of Edward I 'Longshanks' of
_Braveheart_ fame -- so "Hippo" has multiple descents from Edward I as well.

"La Nilita" will get a kick out of all this -- and probably more....

Need one say the "O" Word?

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Deus Vult

"hippo" <hippo@south-sudan.net> wrote in message
news:12hguucbfc7f87a@corp.supernews.com...
"D. Spencer Hines" wrote in message

Henry de Beaufort was a bastard of John of Gaunt.

So, "Hippo" has at least one Royal Bastard Descent too -- there are
probably others.

Yup, his illegitimate daughter Jane Beaufort. -the Troll

news.redshift.com

Re: David Cameron's Wife -- Royal Genealogy?

Legg inn av news.redshift.com » 26 sep 2006 04:05:52

Please see: "A Non-Affair to Remember - the Alleged Liaison of Cardinal
Beaufort and Alice of Arundel" by Brad Verity [Foundations: Volume 1, Number
4, July 2004, pp. 246-268] which disproves that Alice of Arundel could have
been mother of Cardinal Beaufort's daughter.

HS

"D. Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:OR%Rg.436$B16.4457@eagle.america.net...
<snip>
The mother of Cardinal de Beaufort's daughter Joan [Jane], whom "Hippo"
mentions infra was said to have been Alice FitzAlan, wife of John
Cherleton, 4th Lord Cherleton of Powis [1362 - 19 October 1401, sine
prole].

Lady Alice was also a 2nd great-granddaughter of Edward I 'Longshanks' of
_Braveheart_ fame -- so "Hippo" has multiple descents from Edward I as
well.

snip

Peter Stewart

Re: Otgiva of Luxemburg

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 26 sep 2006 04:36:05

"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
news:%iQRg.35871$rP1.11809@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
Therav3@aol.com> wrote in message news:564.66106e1.32492111@aol.com...
Monday, 25 September, 2006

<snip>

If Hedwig, wife of Siegfried, mother of the empress Cunigunda
and apparent grandmother of Otgiva (whether Otgiva was the daughter
of Frederick or Giselbert) was a descent of Eadgifu, she would have
been closely related to Agnes of Poitou (wife of the emperor Henry
III) as shown below [the conjectured descent of Hedwig shown
.......]. An interesting possibility also arises: that the name
Hedwig (already current in the Ottonian family of Gerberga) was
used/conflated with Eadgifu to leave us with the rendering
Odgiva/Otgiva, as suggested below.

This is an unnecessary stretch - no woman named Hadwig occurs as "Odvisa"
as far as I'm aware, but rather as Advisa, and there is no linguistic
warrant for either the substitution of initial O for (H)A or the reversal
of order with the consonants g and w/v in these names. Queen Eadgifu was
called "Orgiva" (by Witger) and "Eadgiva" (by a continuator of Ado of
Vienne), so that O(t)giva represent no stretch from these variants.

This should read: Queen Eadgifu was called "Otgiva" (by Witger)....

Peter Stewart

hippo

Re: David Cameron's Wife -- Royal Genealogy?

Legg inn av hippo » 26 sep 2006 04:37:24

"D. Spencer Hines" wrote in message

"Hippo's" alleged ancestor, Henry de Beaufort [c. 1375-1447] who was
Bishop
of Lincoln 1398, Bishop of Winchester 1405, Cardinal St. Eusebius 1417,
and
Lord Chancellor -- was also the principal mentor to and royal trainer of
Henry V, so he could assume his royal duties in the superb fashion which
he
demonstrated as one of England's Great Kings and Queens.

Cardinal de Beaufort also participated in the trial of Joan of Arc at
Rouen
on 24 May 1431 -- at which she was condemned and then burned at the stake.

No wonder "Hippo" and the French don't get along all that well. <g

The mother of Cardinal de Beaufort's daughter Joan [Jane], whom "Hippo"
mentions infra was said to have been Alice FitzAlan, wife of John
Cherleton, 4th Lord Cherleton of Powis [1362 - 19 October 1401, sine
prole].

Lady Alice was also a 2nd great-granddaughter of Edward I 'Longshanks' of
_Braveheart_ fame -- so "Hippo" has multiple descents from Edward I as
well.

*If*, as Sir William rightly mentions, there wasn't a cook or man-at-arms in
the woodpile. -the Troll

Terry J Booth

Re: Henry Sothill / Joan FitzWilliam (Sothill Redux)

Legg inn av Terry J Booth » 26 sep 2006 07:01:02

Will,

I apologize for not showing Henry Sothill, Esq. II's dates in my first
posting, thus causing some confusion.

I have the second Henry Sothill, Esq. b. abt 1380, d. 1430/56, m.1413 Joan
Fitzwilliam dau of William Fitzwilliam, Lord of Emley by his wife Maud
Cromwell and had issue. I cannot disagree this Henry could have been b. as
early as 1365, but it seems more reasonable to have him closer in age to
Joan Fitzwilliam (b. aft 1377, d. aft 1454), and thus under 35 at his 1413
marriage. Using my b. abt 1349 date for his father (based on the earliest
PRO records), a 1380 birthdate for Henry Esq. II is not unreasonable.

Thus there is no third Henry Esq. While the PRO summary states Henry Esq. II
had a will dated 1421, it does not state when it was filed or acted upon. It
was also apparently written at the same time as the grant of Sothill to
William Mirfield and 3 others - no doubt there were legal and other
considerations associated with its date and form. John had to be age 8 or
less when it was written, and still under age in 1431 when his father filed
the attornment. A review of the actual will might clarify what happened.

I cannot comment on who Henry Esq II's son John m., his children or
descendants. My interest is associated with the Beatrice Sothill who m. Sir
Thomas Markenfield, an ancestor of William Wentworth of Dover NH.
Unfortunately this chronology indicates that Henry Esq. I was her father,
missing a Fitzwilliam pedigree.

Terry Booth

----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <terryjbooth@sbcglobal.net>; <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 6:11 PM
Subject: Re: Henry Sothill / Joan FitzWilliam (Sothill Redux)


Is this then the corrected line
Henry Sothill d bef 1377 married Dionysia and had issue
Henry Sothill d aft 1410 wife unknown and had issue
Henry Sothill b abt 1365 d 1421 and had issue

Henry Sothill d 1430/56 mar 1413 Joan FitzWilliam dau of William
FitzWilliam,
Lord of Emley by his wife Maud Cromwell

and had issue
John Sothill mar Alice Mauleverer and had issue
John Sothill had issue
John Sothill mar Alison Neville and had issue
Alice Sothill mar John Beaumont of Lascelles Hall (d 1541/2)


--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.8/455 - Release Date: 9/22/2006


Birds

Re: Otgiva of Luxemburg

Legg inn av Birds » 26 sep 2006 07:30:06

That would explain why Hlawitschka does not mention this later attested
custom. As a historical en genealogical researcher he is quite well
informed so he can't be taken lightly.

Thus Hlawitschka sees in the Heinrich of 964 a person of age, not a
baby or todler.

But then again a marriage around 949/950 for Siegfried would seem quite
early with regards to the children born from this union and their
marriages.

Hans Vogels



Peter Stewart schreef:

"Birds" <h.vogels6@chello.nl> wrote in message
news:1159214561.367619.139750@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

Eduard Hlawitschka, "War Graf Siegfried I. von Luxemburg ein Sohn
Herzog Giselberts van Lothringen? Ein Diskussionsbeitrag", in:
Forschungsbeiträge der Geisteswissenschaftlichen Klasse. Schriften der
Sudetendeutschen Akademie der Wisschaften und Künste, Band 23,
München 2002, wrote a nice demolition of an theory proposed by René
Klein in 1998. This theory was previously discussed here on the
newsgroup.

Hlawitschka mentions the fact that in 964 Siegfried, his wife Hadwig
and their son Heinrich are mentioned. Heinrich was at that time surely
no longer a small child. He could easily have reached the age of
maturity and therefore been born around 950.

So far Hlawitschka. Heinrich could have been fourteen but need not have
been. His minimal age at that time could have been at least seven
years. Seven being the minimal age when children could confirm actions
when their father, mother or gardian made deeds and gifts or made other
decisions important for them. Drs. T. Klaversma points out that this
fase started when the children were no longer "infans", so minimaly
seven years of age, the time when they came to the years of
distinction/discretion.

This theory may have come to be applied practically later on, but in the
10th and 11th centuries it was not observed as a rule.

Babies occur gibing assent to charters of their parents and siblings -
assuming they were actually present and that their names were not just added
by a copyist after the fact, the document was held to their touch to signify
assent.

Presumably if the baby flinched and/or howled it was not taken as
registering an objection, because as you say the age of discretion had not
been reached.

Peter Stewart

Alex Maxwell Findlater

Re: Sir Adam de Gesemuth or Jesmond

Legg inn av Alex Maxwell Findlater » 26 sep 2006 07:52:07

Bruce Charter No 164 on p 227 of Ruth Blakely's book on the Bruces.

Now please, can anyone help me with Sir Adam of Jesmond. Please.

a.spencer3

Re: David Cameron's Wife -- Royal Genealogy?

Legg inn av a.spencer3 » 26 sep 2006 09:10:35

"hippo" <hippo@south-sudan.net> wrote in message
news:12hgim3jk8p7715@corp.supernews.com...
"William Black" wrote in message

He's descended from Elizabeth FitzClarance, the acknowledged bastard of
William IV, and his mistress Dorothy Jordan.

I'm descended from Edward III through John of Gaunt and Henry Cardinal
Beaufort. Does that make me a despised aristocrat? How far back does the
onus of aristocracy extend? -the Troll


Oh Gawd, the Beauforts were our local Lords of the Manor in 1437! You was

probably conceived in my front garden!
Look, just 'cos my Greats clobbered your Greats in Glamorgan way back,
there's no need to get all (or more) bitter & twisted.
You might like the following - a new one for me accidently Googled up
recently.
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/GLA/Lewis1833Gla.html

Surreyman

Peter Stewart

Re: Otgiva of Luxemburg

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 26 sep 2006 09:23:06

"Birds" <h.vogels6@chello.nl> wrote in message
news:1159252206.036843.81570@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
That would explain why Hlawitschka does not mention this later attested
custom. As a historical en genealogical researcher he is quite well
informed so he can't be taken lightly.

Thus Hlawitschka sees in the Heinrich of 964 a person of age, not a
baby or todler.

But then again a marriage around 949/950 for Siegfried would seem quite
early with regards to the children born from this union and their
marriages.

I agree, Hans - the best point of reference for this generation may be the
marriage ca May/June 1000 of Kunigunde to Heinrich of Bavaria, soon to be
German king & later emperor, who was born in May 973. She is not likely to
have been still unmarried at that time unless she was somewhat younger than
her husband's 27 years. Say she was born ca 980, this makes it scarcely
plausible that she had a full sibling born more than about 20 years earlier.

The consequence would be that Heinric was only an infant or young child on
17 September 964 when he first occurs, and his brothers who do not appear at
the same time would presumably have been born afterwards. On the other hand
if Heinric was 14 in 964 his sister Kunigunde would apparently have been
born when he was ca 30 years old, and for all we know she may not have been
the youngest sibling. If the two churchmen amongst them became bishops at
the age of eligibility, Thierry of Metz would have been born by 965/6 and
Adalbero of Trier by 968. Of the sisters, Liutgard was married ca 980, Eva
(Aenza) was evidently married before 1000, and the unnamed wife of Count
Thietmar probably was too since her daughter became an abbess in 1019.

It looks to me as if Kunigunde was younger than all of them except perhaps
Irmentrud, who became an abbess, and they were all seemingly born between ca
960 and ca 980, give or take maybe 5 years at either end.

Peter Stewart

Robert O'Connor

Re: Cony of Bassingbourne

Legg inn av Robert O'Connor » 26 sep 2006 10:18:51

<WJhonson@aol.com> wrote in message news:363.e9f5dd8.3241f8cb@aol.com...
The chrological argument starts with William Harrington of
Witham-on-the-Hill, Lincs. having a son Thomas Harrington who was a
"Fellow of All Souls
College" in 1627


Alumuni Oxonsenses records that this Thomas was in fact a fellow of All
Souls College in 1621. Also that he was aged 15 when he matriculated on 4
May 1621. He was thus born circa 1605/6.

William Harrington and his wife Dorothy Chicheley had at least three more
children, baptised at Bourne
John 8 May 1585
Susan 13 Jun 1587
Robert 3 Feb 1588/9

William must be the eldest son and heir to his father Robert Harrington of
Witham-on-the-Hill and thus it should be fairly certain that this Robert
was
born by 1550

On the basis of the birth of Thomas, mentioned above, in circa 1605/6 this

William must have been born, say 1582. Thus Robert Harington could have
been born as late as, say, 1560.

And are not Frances, Mary and Ellen co-heirs ?

When is it recorded that they were co-heirs? Co-heirs of who?? Is there a
will you are referring to?

That would mean that Robert
must be a son by John Harrington of Bourne's next marriage to Judith
Brudenell.

Certainly that is what is recorded in the Harington pedigree in Lincolnshire
Pedigrees, but what is your basis for that statement?

So that that marriage must have occurred by 1550. Thus Rose Winter must
have died by 1550 as well.

Will Johnson

Thanks

Robert O'Connor

Gjest

Re: John Gordon (1544-1619)

Legg inn av Gjest » 26 sep 2006 17:00:02

For those interested in the Hotman family, I have created an article on John
Gordon here
_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Gordon_%281544%29_
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Gordon_(1544))

which copies the old DNB entry (now out of copyright).

John was the "cousin German" on the marriage contract between Suzanne Hotman
and John Menteith "of the house of the Counts of Menteith and Barons of
Karse" in 1594.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: John Gordon 1544-1619

Legg inn av Gjest » 26 sep 2006 17:55:02

In a message dated 9/26/2006 8:21:48 AM Pacific Standard Time,
AlexStewart17@aol.com writes:

In answer to your question about John Gordon in the new Oxford DNB, it
states, "He was born on 1 September 1544, the natural son of Alexander
Gordon
(c.1516-1575) and Barbara Logie; his parents married, perhaps
clandestinely, only
in 1546, before Alexander obtained ecclesiastical preferment."



Thanks Alex I've updated those details
_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Gordon_%281544%29_
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Gordon_(1544))

Will

Gjest

Re: Mauleverer - additions to RPA/PA3 and MCA?

Legg inn av Gjest » 26 sep 2006 19:56:02

Is that "Genealogist" article the source for stating that Robert (the Bishop
of Bath and Wells 1466, Chancellor 1468, died in captivity 1491 at Windsor),
the brother of this Thomas Stillington?

The old DNB has no article, and neither wikipedia nor tudorplace.com.ar knows
this connection.

Thanks
Will

Gjest

Re: de Meriet - de Langeford

Legg inn av Gjest » 26 sep 2006 20:16:01

In a message dated 9/26/06 10:27:52 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
steven333333@hotmail.com writes:

<< >From the Patent Rolls, at Iowa University, Henry 3 vol 4 p 155 (36
Henry III), 27 October 1252 : Ratification of marriages contracted
between John firstborn son of Nicholas de Meriet and Maud daughter of
Richard de Langeford, and between Roger son of the said Richard and
Margaret daughter of the said Nicholas.

Also, from the Patent Rolls, at Iowa University, Henry 3 vol 4 p 501
(40 Henry III), 20 September 1256: Grant to Edward the king's son, in
pursuance of the king's grant to him of wardships to a certain amount,
of the wardship of the lands late of Nicholas de Meriet, tenant in
chief, with the marriage of the heirs. Mandate to the sheriff of
Somerset and the escheator of that county to give the bailiffs of the
said Edward seisin thereof. >>

Reading through this, actually I have another question.
If on 20 Sep 1256 the king's son is being granted the "lands late of Nicholas
de Meriet" after having previously [apparently] been granted the "wardships"
and "marriage of the HEIRS" then since John was Nicholas heir, I have to
assume at some date previous, the "king's son" was granted John's marriage.

However on 27 Oct 1252 John's marriage is confirmed.

Wouldn't that imply either that Nicholas died before 27 Oct 1252, or that
Maud de Langeford died between 27 Oct 1252 and 20 Sep 1256 perhaps and so the
marriage is granted again. But I think I prefer the first explanation, the
second sounds forced.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Sir Adam Fitz John, of Ermesthorp: Ancestor of Sir Walte

Legg inn av Gjest » 26 sep 2006 20:20:03

In a message dated 9/25/06 10:11:25 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:

<< For interest's sake, the following is a list of the 17th Century New
World immigrants who descend from Sir Adam Fitz John, of Rippingale,
Lincolnshire, living 1324:

Dorothy Beresford, Humphrey Davie, Anne Humphrey, Mary Launce, Percival
Lowell, John Nelson, Thomas Owsley, Herbert Pelham, Edward Raynsford,
Mary Johanna Somerset, John Stockman, John West, George Yate. >>


Douglas was not Rev Thomas Dungan 1634-88 who died at Cold Spring, Bucks Co,
PA also of this descent?
Here is what I have on his connection
Rev Thomas Dungan born 1634 London son of
William Dungan 1607-1636 by his wife Frances Latham 1610-1677 she died at
Newport, RI. He was son of
Thomas Dungan, Gent of Lincoln's Inn, son of
John Dungan by his wife Margaret Forster 1555- daughter of
Walter Forster by his wife Margaret Neville 1530- son of
Unknown (to me) Forster by his wife Jane Hungerford daughter of
Sir Anthony Hungerford of Down Ampney -1558 by his second wife Dorothy Danvers
etc.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Sir Adam Fitz John, of Ermesthorp: Ancestor of Sir Walte

Legg inn av Gjest » 26 sep 2006 20:50:03

In a message dated 9/26/06 7:41:45 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:

<< Witnesses: Osbert de Bobi, John Gubbehodm Hugh de Mortona, Ralph de
Mortona, William the chamberlain of Corby, Roger de Hermethorp, Roger
Bastard, William Morant. >>

Douglas I would like to draw your attention back to your original posting
where you describe the manor of "Ermesthorp" and then above we see as a witness,
Roger de "Hermethorp"

I would suggest these two words are the same.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Henry Sothill / Joan FitzWilliam (Sothill Redux)

Legg inn av Gjest » 26 sep 2006 20:51:02

In a message dated 9/25/06 9:57:16 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
terryjbooth@sbcglobal.net writes:

<< John had to be age 8 or
less when it was written, and still under age in 1431 when his father filed
the attornment. A review of the actual will might clarify what happened. >>

Are you saying that John is mentioned in the 1421 will ?

Gjest

Re: Henry Sothill / Joan FitzWilliam (Sothill Redux)

Legg inn av Gjest » 26 sep 2006 20:55:03

In a message dated 9/25/06 9:57:16 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
terryjbooth@sbcglobal.net writes:

<< Joan Fitzwilliam (b. aft 1377, d. aft 1454), >>

Thanks Terry for the corrections.
Btw you can put a terminus on Joan's birth since her father is known to have
died on 8 Apr 1398 (Living Descendents of Blood Royal, Vol 2, "Titcomb", pg
772, Count d'Angerville; World Nobility, London. 1962)

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Fw: Daughters of Sir Robert MARKHAM

Legg inn av Gjest » 26 sep 2006 21:20:04

In a message dated 9/25/06 10:39:46 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
jthiggins@sbcglobal.net writes:

<< Despite the fact that both of these works indicate that all the daughters
were by the elder Sir Robert and Elizabeth Burdon, I'm inclined, for
chronological reasons, to believe that the visitation pedigrees are right in this case
in assigning the daughters to the younger Sir Robert and Joan Daubeney. This
is because the elder Sir Robert probably died in the 1430s (or possibly even
earlier), while the spouses of the three daughters died 60 to 95 years later. >>

John, thank you for your excellent post.
In the [old] DNB article on John Markham, Chief Justice (d 1479) it states
that he and his elder brother Robert (the one you think died in the 1430s) were
made KB at the coronation of Edward IV. That would have been 1461 I believe.

Will

Gjest

Re: Fw: Daughters of Sir Robert MARKHAM

Legg inn av Gjest » 26 sep 2006 21:26:02

In a message dated 9/25/06 10:39:46 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
jthiggins@sbcglobal.net writes:

<< Despite the fact that both of these works indicate that all the daughters
were by the elder Sir Robert and Elizabeth Burdon, I'm inclined, for
chronological reasons, to believe that the visitation pedigrees are right in this case
in assigning the daughters to the younger Sir Robert and Joan Daubeney. This
is because the elder Sir Robert probably died in the 1430s (or possibly even
earlier), while the spouses of the three daughters died 60 to 95 years later.
This spread of dates suggests that, if all the daughters were by a single Sir
Robert, the younger Sir Robert (who died in 1476) is a more likely candidate,
and the Markham family histories were likely confused by the two Roberts.
I.e., a different conjecture than I had originally suggested....

Also above you say the "younger Sir Robert who died in 1476"
I think the younger one died in 1495/6 and it was his father who died in 1476
This then would match the one who was created KB 1461 of course he would have
been rather ancient possibly.

Terry J Booth

Re: Henry Sothill / Joan FitzWilliam (Sothill Redux)

Legg inn av Terry J Booth » 26 sep 2006 21:35:02

Yes.

Here is the PRO entry again

PRO website FILE - [no title] - ref. DD/SR/26/86 - date: 1421
Scope and Content : Will of Henry de Sutyll', esquire, providing inter alia
that the residuum of his goods not bequeathed and the profits of his lands
etc shall be held by William Myrfeld' esquire and the others mentioned in 85
[i.e. DD/SR/26/85] for the use of his children until his son John reaches 21

The related entry ('others in 85') was the grant of Sothill :

PRO website FILE - [no title] - ref. DD/SR/26/85 - date: 9 Hen V [1421-2]
Scope and Content : Grant by Henry de Sutyll', esquire, to William Myrfeld',
esquire, William Scott, perpetual vicar of the church of Dewesbery, Richard
Wyntteworth' of Helmesalle and William Byrton' of Gomersall' of his manor of
Sutyll' (Soothill, Yk) etc

Terry Booth

----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <terryjbooth@sbcglobal.net>; <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 1:37 PM
Subject: Re: Henry Sothill / Joan FitzWilliam (Sothill Redux)


In a message dated 9/25/06 9:57:16 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
terryjbooth@sbcglobal.net writes:

John had to be age 8 or
less when it was written, and still under age in 1431 when his father
filed
the attornment. A review of the actual will might clarify what happened.


Are you saying that John is mentioned in the 1421 will ?


--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.9/456 - Release Date: 9/25/2006


Gjest

Re: Mauleverer - additions to RPA/PA3 and MCA?

Legg inn av Gjest » 26 sep 2006 21:46:02

In a message dated 9/26/06 12:27:57 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk writes:

<< Probably useless, as I've- naturally!- forgotten the source, but I've
got the dates 1455-1501 down for Sir William Ingleby, and his wife
Catherine Stillington as d.1500. Their daughter Joan/Jane married Sir
Robert Constable whose dates are (estimated by DNB?) 1478?-1537. The
son John Ingleby (d.1502) married a sister of Constable's, Eleanor
(d.1525, afterwards married to Lord Berkeley), their father Marmaduke
Constable's dates per new DNB being 1456/7?-1518. >>


Robert Constable's death date is 8 June 1537 he was executed at Beverley
Gate, Hull, Yorkshire
His birth year of 1478
(http://bz.llano.net/gowen/hussey_millen ... s_003.html and also http://www.tudorplace.com.ar)
Tudorplace.com.ar gives Jane a birth of 1472 which isn't entirely implausible.
I show three children: Anne, Catherine and Marmaduke all born between 1495
and 1503

For John Ingleby we're restricted above and below. Tudorplace states his
*son* William was born in 1494 and we know his *father* William was born in 1455
so that's fairly limiting isn't it? John's birth is given as 1477 and died 27
Aug 1502 at Ripley, Yorkshire again by tudorplace.com.ar

Agnes or Anne who married Richard Goldesborough is the wild card. I have
nothing to indicate when she was born or died.

Will

Gjest

Re: Mauleverer - additions to RPA/PA3 and MCA?

Legg inn av Gjest » 26 sep 2006 21:47:02

In a message dated 9/26/06 12:27:57 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk writes:

<< The
son John Ingleby (d.1502) married a sister of Constable's, Eleanor
(d.1525, afterwards married to Lord Berkeley), their father Marmaduke
Constable's dates per new DNB being 1456/7?-1518. >>


Thomas the 5th Lord Berkeley 1472-1532/3
Eleanor Constable had at least one child by her first marriage and then
marrying in 1504 had at least three more children
Leo says that Thomas the 6th Lord, her son, was born in 1505 so that helps to
give Eleanor a range of possible birth.

Will

D. Spencer Hines

Re: John Isaac Bates [1598-1666] Gateway Ancestor From The C

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 26 sep 2006 21:49:00

Come, come, Grey -- surely you have her papers.

How do you descend from John Isaac Bates? -- Just the first generation or
two from John will do.

I've previously posted mine.

John Isaac Bates [1598-1666] is my 10th Great-Grandfather.

What is he to you?

Do you perhaps descend from Master Bates?

DSH

"Grey Satterfield" <gsatterfield@cox.net> wrote in message
news:C13EF6F8.3358F%gsatterfield@cox.net...

I don't recall how I am descended from John Bates. My late wife was a
serious genealogist and knew as much as anyone about the musty old
Satterfield family. While she explained it all to me when she found the
connection I don't remember the details. It does seem, though, that she
found a relationship between Bates and one of my 18th Century ancestors,
Bidwell Satterfield.

D. Spencer Hines

Re: John Isaac Bates [1598-1666] Gateway Ancestor From The C

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 26 sep 2006 21:55:29

"Grey Satterfield" <gsatterfield@cox.net> wrote in message
news:C13EF856.33591%gsatterfield@cox.net...

On 9/26/06 12:49 PM, in article FLdSg.452$B16.4549@eagle.america.net, "D.
Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote:

"Grey Satterfield" <gsatterfield@cox.net> wrote in message
news:C13E97BC.33512%gsatterfield@cox.net...

My guy's name was John Bates. I guessed at the date he came to
Jamestown, which was 1620 something, maybe 1626.

No, it was 1623/1624 -- he arrived at Jamestown, Virginia, in
_Southampton_.

You were correct the FIRST TIME.

Have The Courage Of Your Convictions!

Don't Be A MUGWUMP!

One Man's View:

http://www.level6.com/family-history/ba ... art-I.html

"So, on January 20, 1624, 24 year old John Isaac Bates set foot in
Jamestown after crossing the Atlantic on the Southampton and became
the first Bates family ancestor to come to America. He was one of 21
passengers on the ship that were servants of Abraham Piersey. Piersey's
two daughters aged 11 and 15 were also on board."

It appears that Spencer may be a member of one of the several Bates Family
organizations, as was my wife. As confessed earlier, my knowledge of the
details of my ancestry is spotty.

Grey Satterfield

No, I don't belong to any such organization.

The Basic Data on John Bates is on the web, Grey -- with his descendants.

Which one is yours?

DSH

Gjest

Re: Henry Sothill / Joan FitzWilliam (Sothill Redux)

Legg inn av Gjest » 26 sep 2006 22:25:03

Which would mean that this one

C 1/38/177
William Birton and Johanne his wife, late wife of Henry Southill. v. John
Southill, son of the said Henry and Johanne.: Dower in the manor of Southill.
Outrageous conduct of defendant.: York. [dated roughly 1386-1486 [18]]

Which has a rough date of 1386-1486 should actually be considerably narrowed.
Henry Sothill, per your postings did not die until at least 1430

If John "son of ..." is a defendent here, he must be at least 21 correct?
And he is the product of a 1413 marriage, so this document must be after
1433 at least.

So maybe little John disliked his step-dad and threw them out of the house,
once he became an adult.
It would be interesting to see more of this dispute.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Harrington of Bourne was Cony of Bassingbourne

Legg inn av Gjest » 26 sep 2006 22:26:02

In a recent postings I may have said that William Harrington of
Witham-on-the-Hill and his wife Dorothy Chichley had several children baptised at Bourne,
etc etc.

Now in noticing that I had ZERO sources for that statement, I had to
backtrack and found a parish register of Bourne has been extracted to familysearch.org
Call 0990177 Batch P011781
Item 3 is "Parish Register of Bourne, co Lincoln 1562-1650"

From which we learn that the children I had ascribed to William were
apparently actually the children of his father Robert to wit
John bap 8 Mar 1584/5
Edmond bap 10 Jul 1586
Susan bap 1 Jun 1587
Robert bap 3 Feb 1588/9

These four appear to come in rapid succession and allowing William to still
be the eldest would put him possibly born 1580/4. His sister Frances who
married Nicholas Pell in 1609 is perhaps to be put at the other end, that is born
1590 to say 95.

Will Johnson

Douglas Richardson

Re: Sir Adam Fitz John, of Ermesthorp: Ancestor of Sir Walte

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 26 sep 2006 22:29:55

Dear Will ~

I haven't yet verified that "Ermesthorp" (otherwise Hanthorpe) was a
manor. Hanthorpe is considered a hamlet in Morton by Bourne,
Lincolnshire by the modern source, Genuki. Genuki is presumably
relying on a gazeteer for that information. I don't know what the
holding of Ermesthorp was considered back in the 1300's. If the
property was settled by fine by Sir Adam Fitz John (or by one of his
ancestors), it should be mentioned in a surviving Lincolnshire fine.
If so, the fine should clearly state if Ermesthorp was a manor, a
capital messuage, or something else in the medieval period.

Yes, the witness, Roger de Hermethorp, was almost certainly from
Hanthorpe, Lincolnshire. Hanthorpe lies just south of Rippingale and
Kirkby Underwood, which were the chief holdings of Sir Adam Fitz John
and his family. Hermethorp is a variant spelling of Hanthorpe in the
ancient records.

My guess is that if "Ermesthorp" was held by the Rippingale family, as
I believe is the case, it should figure in the early Rippingale
charters published by G.H. Fowler in the 1930's. The next step is to
examine the Rippingale charters. Fowler was a good historian. He
probably provided a pedigree of the Rippingale family in his article.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 9/26/06 7:41:45 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:

Witnesses: Osbert de Bobi, John Gubbehodm Hugh de Mortona, Ralph de
Mortona, William the chamberlain of Corby, Roger de Hermethorp, Roger
Bastard, William Morant.

Douglas I would like to draw your attention back to your original posting
where you describe the manor of "Ermesthorp" and then above we see as a witness,
Roger de "Hermethorp"

I would suggest these two words are the same.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Cony of Bassingbourne

Legg inn av Gjest » 26 sep 2006 22:30:03

In a message dated 9/26/06 2:26:27 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
roconnor@es.co.nz writes:

<< Alumuni Oxonsenses records that this Thomas was in fact a fellow of All
Souls College in 1621. Also that he was aged 15 when he matriculated on 4
May 1621. He was thus born circa 1605/6. >>

He was made a fellow at age 15 ?
That statement seems particularly suspicious to me.
Will

John Higgins

Re: Mauleverer - additions to RPA/PA3 and MCA?

Legg inn av John Higgins » 26 sep 2006 22:41:01

The pedigree in "The Genealogist [new series]" unfortunately has no dates,
but I'm not aware that there was more than one Robert Stillington who was
Bishop of Bath and Wells, so it's presumably the same man.

Gary Boyd Roberts, in a 1981 article in TG [the American publication, not
the British one mentioned before], cites the Stillington pedigree I
referenced and notes that the same [or an equivalent] pedigree appears in
Foster's edition of Glover's 1584-5 visitation of Yorkshire. In this
pedigree the parents of Bishop Robert and his siblings are listed as John
Stillington of Nether Acaster and Catherine, dau. of John Holthorp. There
were two sister of the Bishop, one noted in the GenNS pedigree and one noted
by GBR and presumably from Foster. The first (unnamed) was the mother of
Richard Nick [or Nykke], the last Catholic bishop of Norwich, while the
second, Julian, mar. Sir Thomas Hampton [and is an ancestor of Princess
Diana, as is Catherine Stillington, the wife of Sir William Ingleby].

As to dates for the Inglebys, the pedigree of the family in Clay's edition
of Dugdale's visitation of Yorkshire (published in vol. 21 of "The
Genealogist [new series]") has a fair number of dates, usually substantiated
by wills or IPMs.

BTW, if you can't get to Salt Lake City, the Sutro Library in San Francisco
has a full run of the British "Genealogist" [new and old series] on
microfilm, and Foster's Yorkshire visitation mentioned above is available at
the LA Central Library.

----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 10:38 AM
Subject: Re: Mauleverer - additions to RPA/PA3 and MCA?


Is that "Genealogist" article the source for stating that Robert (the
Bishop
of Bath and Wells 1466, Chancellor 1468, died in captivity 1491 at
Windsor),
the brother of this Thomas Stillington?

The old DNB has no article, and neither wikipedia nor tudorplace.com.ar
knows
this connection.

Thanks
Will

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: Cony of Bassingbourne

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 26 sep 2006 22:52:01

In message of 26 Sep, WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 9/26/06 2:26:27 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
roconnor@es.co.nz writes:

Alumuni Oxonsenses records that this Thomas was in fact a fellow of All
Souls College in 1621. Also that he was aged 15 when he matriculated on 4
May 1621. He was thus born circa 1605/6.

He was made a fellow at age 15 ?
That statement seems particularly suspicious to me.

Quite. But I have just had a (virtual) thumb through Alumni Oxoniensis
for 1500 to 1714 and simply cannot find the chap. There is a Thomas
Coney but he was 180 years later. Anyone got any suggestions on what
the name might have been?

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/

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