Blount-Ayala
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Gjest
Re: Rhys Mechyll and Maud de Braose redux
In a message dated 9/2/2006 5:01:10 AM Pacific Standard Time, tim@powys.org
writes:
ODNB will accept corrections, indeed that have accepted a couple of
mine, so it is worthwhile getting some evidence together and passing it
on to them.
On this score, I recently got a message saying they had gone through my
corrections site, and recorded all the corrections and they would be in the next
update. Very interesting.
Will Johnson
writes:
ODNB will accept corrections, indeed that have accepted a couple of
mine, so it is worthwhile getting some evidence together and passing it
on to them.
On this score, I recently got a message saying they had gone through my
corrections site, and recorded all the corrections and they would be in the next
update. Very interesting.
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: William Cummin of Snitterfield, Warwickshire
Dear Tim,
I found the index to a paper presented on Snitterfield by John
Shelby MA FSA " An Eighteenth century Warwickshire- Snitterfield a
Warwickshire Local History Society Occasional paper NO. 6 1986 which refers to John
de Cantelou`s wife twice, once as Margerie and once as Margaret Comyn. Also an
intriging reference to a 1236 dispute between John Comyn and Maud Giffard.
(remember the marriage between John Comyn and the daughter of Adam Giffard of
Fonthill, Wilts. ?)
This Comyn family may also be responsible for Newbold Comyn, Warwickshire.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
I found the index to a paper presented on Snitterfield by John
Shelby MA FSA " An Eighteenth century Warwickshire- Snitterfield a
Warwickshire Local History Society Occasional paper NO. 6 1986 which refers to John
de Cantelou`s wife twice, once as Margerie and once as Margaret Comyn. Also an
intriging reference to a 1236 dispute between John Comyn and Maud Giffard.
(remember the marriage between John Comyn and the daughter of Adam Giffard of
Fonthill, Wilts. ?)
This Comyn family may also be responsible for Newbold Comyn, Warwickshire.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
-
hippo
Re: The Political Compass
"Fred J. McCall" wrote in message
Chuckle, I figured that out. The kids use PP all the time. I have it but
have no idea how why to use it. -the Troll
"hippo" wrote:
The phrase "PowerPoint Warrior" is often used these days to refer to
the types that work in buildings with too many sides (for example).
Chuckle, I figured that out. The kids use PP all the time. I have it but
have no idea how why to use it. -the Troll
-
La N
Re: The Political Compass
"hippo" <hippo@south-sudan.net> wrote in message
news:12fmfqc438do332@corp.supernews.com...
I agree with at least *one* business / management consultant who says that
PowerPoint should be done away with. It makes for boring passionless
presentations that nobody remembers. Plus the PP Samurais themselves spend
*way* too much valuable time fiddling around with fonts, colours,
backgrounds, etc., they get downright anal!
- nilita
news:12fmfqc438do332@corp.supernews.com...
"Fred J. McCall" wrote in message
"hippo" wrote:
The phrase "PowerPoint Warrior" is often used these days to refer to
the types that work in buildings with too many sides (for example).
Chuckle, I figured that out. The kids use PP all the time. I have it but
have no idea how why to use it. -the Troll
I agree with at least *one* business / management consultant who says that
PowerPoint should be done away with. It makes for boring passionless
presentations that nobody remembers. Plus the PP Samurais themselves spend
*way* too much valuable time fiddling around with fonts, colours,
backgrounds, etc., they get downright anal!
- nilita
-
Gjest
Re: The Comyns and the House of Galloway: a prior Connection
Dear John,
While I doubt any actual connection, I did come across an
Australian website which claims that Uchtred, husband of Bethoc ingen Domnall
Ban was a brother of Maud, wife of Simon de St Liz and David I, King of Scots
and of Alice , wife of Ralph IV de Toeni, lord of Flamstead and son of
Waltheof II, Earl of Northumberland by Judith of Lens.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
While I doubt any actual connection, I did come across an
Australian website which claims that Uchtred, husband of Bethoc ingen Domnall
Ban was a brother of Maud, wife of Simon de St Liz and David I, King of Scots
and of Alice , wife of Ralph IV de Toeni, lord of Flamstead and son of
Waltheof II, Earl of Northumberland by Judith of Lens.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
-
hippo
Re: The Political Compass
"La N" wrote in message
Army officers hate it too, but it seems to have become essential for
presentations for the boss. -the Troll
I agree with at least *one* business / management consultant who says that
PowerPoint should be done away with. It makes for boring passionless
presentations that nobody remembers. Plus the PP Samurais themselves
spend *way* too much valuable time fiddling around with fonts, colours,
backgrounds, etc., they get downright anal!
Army officers hate it too, but it seems to have become essential for
presentations for the boss. -the Troll
-
Alex Maxwell Findlater
Re: The Comyns and the House of Galloway: a prior Connection
This Uchtred is normally treated as being a son of Waltheof of
Tynedale. I think it is pretty clear that Maud and Alice were
co-heiresses. The history of the earldom of Northumberland was so
important as to be recorded in contemporary and near contemporary
chronicles.
Tynedale. I think it is pretty clear that Maud and Alice were
co-heiresses. The history of the earldom of Northumberland was so
important as to be recorded in contemporary and near contemporary
chronicles.
-
Gjest
Re: Menteith of Kerse: a reexamination
Monday, 4 September, 2006
Hello All,
Following is the promised pedigree (down to 1508 anyway) of
Menteith of Kerse. Any additional documentation, comment or
correction is welcome, as always.
Cheers,
John
1 Walter le Steward
----------------------------------------
Death: 1241[1]
Occ: seneschal and justiciar of Scotia
Father: Alan le Steward (-1204)
Spouse: B____ [possibly Bethoc]
Children: Alexander le Stewart (1214-1283)
John (-1249)
Walter (1219-<1296)
1.1 Walter le Steward
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 28 Apr 1296[7],[8],[1]
Birth: 1219[9]
Burial: Inchmahome priory, Menteith[10]
Occ: Earl of Mentieth
Earl of Menteith de jure uxoris
3rd son
' Walter le Senescallus ', one of the Regents of Scotland and
guardians of Alexander III, appointed 20 September 1255[11]
'Hugh de Abyrnethine', received grant of £ 20 lands in Aberfoyle,
Menteith from Isabella, (deprived) countess of Menteith, before
Jan 1261/2 [Red Book of Menteith I:37, II:213, citing grant in
Douglas charter chest[12] ]
' Waltero senescallo ', witness (together with Alexander Comyn,
earl of Buchan and justiciar of Scotia, Patrick, earl of Dunbar,
Aymer de Maxwell the chamberlain, and Hugh de Abernethy) to a
charter of King Alexander III granting a yearly market 'at the
feast of St. John the Baptist, lasting for fifteen following
days' to the Burgh of Ayr, dated at Traquair, 12 Dec 1261
[Chart. Ayr pp. 18-19, No. 11[13]]
he was recognized as Earl of Menteith after the 12 Dec 1261 charter,
but before 19 Jan 1261/2:
' Walterus Senescallus, comes de Menthet ' renewed and confirmed
a grant of the church of Kilcolmanel in Kintyre to the abbey of
Paisley on that date [Red Book of Menteith II:216, citing
Registrum Monasterii de Passelet, p. 121[12] ]
fought at the Battle of Largs, 1263[9]
witness to the marriage contract of Margaret of Scotland and
King Eric of Norway, dated Roxburgh, 25 July 1281 [Cowan p. 94[9] ]
'Walterus Senescallus comes de Menethe ', together with his
sons Alexander and John, entered into a bond with Robert de
Brus, Walter, earl of Menteith and others at Turnberry, 20
Sept 1286 'to adhere to the party of Richard de Burgh, earl
of Ulster and Sir Thomas de Clare ' [Red Book of Menteith
II: 219-220, citing Historical Docs. Scotland, i:22[12] ]
' Gauter de Menetehe ', one of the Earls of Scotland attending
the Parliament at Brigham, which confirmed the Treaty of
Salisbury with England, 14 Mar 1289/90 [Stevenson I:129-130,
No. XCII[14]]
supporter of Bruce the Competitor for the Scots crown, 1291
(Barrow p. 388)[7]:
'Walter, earl of Menteith', one of the auditors for the claim
of Bruce at Berwick, 2 June 1292 [Crawfurd p. 20[15] ]
' Meneteth (Meinteth), comes de, Walterus, (Wautier comte de
Meinteth). ' - swore allegiance to King Edward I at Berwick,
1291 [Ragman Roll[16] ]
' Terra Comitis de Menteth de Knapedal ', his lands in Knapdale
included in the Sheriffdom of Lorne under the ordinance of 1293
[Campbell p. 45[17]]
Spouse: Mary of Menteith
Death: bef 1286[12]
Father: Maelmure 'Og', Earl of Menteith (-1230)
Children: Alexander, Earl of Menteith (-ca1306)
Sir John (-ca1323)
1.1.1 Sir John de Menteith
----------------------------------------
Death: ca 1323
Occ: laird of Ruskie
of Ruskie
' Johannes ', together with his father and brother, entered
into a bond with Robert de Brus, Walter, earl of Menteith and
others at Turnberry, 20 Sept 1286 'to adhere to the party of
Richard de Burgh, earl of Ulster and Sir Thomas de Clare '
[Red Book of Menteith II: 219-220, citing Historical Docs.
Scotland, i:22[12] ]
fought against the English, and captured either at the siege
of Dunbar (1296) or the campaign leading up to the siege:
order dated at Canterbury, 6 June 1297:
' To the sheriff of Nottingham. Whereas the king lately
ordered Walter de Gousill, late sheriff of that county, to
cause Edmund Comyn of Kilbride, John de Meneteth, knights,
Michael Miggel, Walter de Bosevill, William Curry and Robert
de Lecheham, esquires, prisoners lately taken in the castle
of Dumbar in Scotland and in the conflict there and
imprisoned in Notingham castle, to have their wages, to wit
each knight 4d. a day, each squire 3d. a day and 3d. a day
for each of their keepers, until otherwise ordered: the
king orders the sheriff to cause the prisoners and their
keepers to have the wages aforesaid. '
[CCR (Edw. I, 1296-1302) IV:34[18]]
supporter of King Edward I of England in his claims over
Scotland: petitioner for the lands of the Earl of Lennox
[Barrow, p. 448[7]]
'Earl of Lennox' as designated by Edward I of England
captor of Sir William Wallace, 1305
record of his heraldic seal, dated ca. 1305:
' MENTEITH, Sir John, of Rusky, younger son of Walter Stewart,
fifth Earl of Menteith. This was probably the betrayer of
Wallace. He died c. A.D. 1325. A shield of arms: A fess
chequy with a label of five points in chief surmounted of a
bend charged with three [alerions]. Shield on the breast
of an eagle displayed with two heads. Legend (caps.):
SIGILL' IOHANNIS DE MENETET. Beaded borders.
Diam. 7/8 in. Laing, ii. 722. Record Off., c. 1305,
detached seal ll; Bain, ii. pl. i. fig. 11. Red Book
of Menteith, ii. 461, fig. 3. ' [Stevenson, II:503[19]]
received as returned loyal subject by Robert the Bruce -
attended the Scots Parliament at St. Andrews, March 1308/9
(Barrow p. 265)[7]
an envoy of King Robert, together with Sir Neil Campbell: had
a letter of safe conduct from King Edward II of England in
order to treat with Richard de Burgh, Earl of Ulster, August
1309 [Campbell, I:68[17]]
' Sir John de Menteith ', witness [ together with Malcolm,
Earl of Lennox, Sir Neil Campbell - "Testibus Domino
Bernardo Cancellario nostro . Malcolmo Comite de Leuenox .
Johanne de Meneteth et Nigello Cambel militibus "] to
charter of King Robert I to William, thane of Cawdor,
dated at 'Lochbren', 8 Aug 1310 [Cawdor, pp. 3-4[20]]
'John Menteith, tutor of the earldom of Menteith', Surety of
the Arbroath Declaration, 6 April 1320 (Barrow pp. 424-8)[7]
Spouse: NN
Children: Helen, m. Sir Colin Campbell
Joanna, m. lstly Malise, Earl of Strathearn,
2ndly John Campbell, Earl of Athol,
3rdly Maurice Murray,
4thly (as 2nd wife) William, Earl of Sutherland
Walter
Sir John, lord of Knapdale and Arran
1.1.1.1 Walter de Menteith
----------------------------------------
Occ: laird of Ruskie
laird of Ruskie[12]
' domino Waltero de Menetheth ', had a charter from his cousin
Murdoch, earl of Menteith for the lands of Thom and Lanarkynys
in Menteith, and fishing rights in the river Teith, ca. 1330
[Red Book of Menteith II:225-7[12]]
Children: Sir Alexander Menteith of Ruskie
John (-<1382)
Walter
Malcolm
William
1.1.1.1.1 John Menteith
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 22 Oct 1382[12],[21]
laird of Kerse (de jure uxoris)
Sheriff of Clackmannan:
' dominum Willelmum comitem de Sotheyrland, et dominam Johannam
comitissam, sponsam suam, comitissam, videlicet, de
Stratheryn ', granted certain lands to William Murray of
Tullibody - grant of ward by John de Menteith, her kinsman,
as sheriff of Clackmannan, 31 May 1352 [Red Book of Menteith
II:234, no. 25[12] ]
re: his wife:
' David II, by charter dated January 25, in the twenty-eighth
year of his reign (1357), restored Marjory and John to her
offices and estates, to be held by them and the heirs of their
marriage, whom failing, the lawful heirs of Marjory, in the
same way as John de Strevylyn, her father, held the same.
' King Robert II confirmed a resignation made at Scone, in the
Parliament held there on October 22, 1382, by Marjory Stirling,
daughter and heiress of the late John de Stirling, to William
Monteith, her son and heir and Elizabeth, his spouse, of the
said offices and estates and also the tenantries of Ochiltree
and Pardovane, in the barony of West Kerse, reserving the
life rent of Marjory.' [Sterling, p. 29[21] ]
charter of confirmation by King David II:
‘12.- To John Monteith and Marjorie de Striveling, daughter to John
Stirling, vic. de Clackmannan et dominum de Cars et de Striveling
et Aluethe, of the said lands, by resignation of his said spouse in
the King’s hands, in favour of her spouse. ‘ [Robertson's Index,
p. 30, no. 12[22]]
Spouse: Mary Stirling
Death: aft 22 Oct 1382[21]
Father: Sir John Stirling of Kerse (-<1356)
Marr: bef 25 Jan 1356[12],[10]
Children: Sir William (<1361->1411)
NN (-<1382), m. Sir John Livingston of Callendar
1.1.1.1.1.1 Sir William Menteith
----------------------------------------
Birth: bef 22 Oct 1361[12]
Death: aft 16 May 1411[12]
Occ: laird of Kerse
laird of Kerse[10]
evidently b. before 22 Oct 1361, as he was evidently of age (i.e.
aged 21 or more) when he received lands of Kerse & c. on the
resignation of his mother on 22 Oct 1382:
' King Robert II confirmed a resignation made at Scone, in the
Parliament held there on October 22, 1382, by Marjory Stirling,
daughter and heiress of the late John de Stirling, to William
Monteith, her son and heir and Elizabeth, his spouse, of the
said offices and estates and also the tenantries of Ochiltree
and Pardovane, in the barony of West Kerse, reserving the
life rent of Marjory.' [Sterling, p. 29[21] ]
re: his wife:
"Elizabeth, spouse of William 'Monteith' " , named in resignation
by Marjory Stirling, mother of William at Scone, October 22,
1382 - Sterling, p. 29[21]
Fraser identified her as
' Elizabeth, daughter of Graham ' [Red Book of Menteith, I:461[12]]
~ she evidently was a dau. of Sir David de Graham and Helen of
Strathearn (m. bef 9 Oct 1353). Her great-grandson Sir William
Menteith had dispensation to marry Euphemia Graham, related to
him in the 4th and 4th degrees (i.e. 3rd cousins). She was a
great-granddaughter of Elizabeth Graham's brother, Sir Patrick
Graham).
Spouse: Elizabeth Graham
Father: Sir David de Graham (<1324->1373)
Mother: Helen of Strathearn
Marr: bef 22 Oct 1382[21]
Children: William (<1390-)
1.1.1.1.1.1.1 William Menteith
----------------------------------------
Birth: bef 16 May 1390[12]
laird of Kerse
he was evidently b. before 16 May 1390, as he was of age (i.e. age 21
or more) when he had a charter for the lands resigned by his father,
dated 16 May 1411: Fraser described him as William Menteith,
' Who had, on his father's resignation on 16th May 1411, a charter
from Robert, Duke of Albany, Regent of Scotland, of the baronies
of Wester Kerse and Alva. ' [Red Book of Menteith, I:461] [12]
Fraser conflated him with his son William Menteith (who m. Helen
Livingston) [Red Book of Menteith, I:461] [12]
Children: Sir William (->1448)
1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 Sir William Menteith
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 17 Dec 1448[19]
Occ: laird of Kerse
laird of Kerse[23],[10]
sheriff of Clackmannan
' He married Helen, a daughter of Sir Alexander Livingston of
Callendar, by whom he had issue. ' [Red Book of Menteith, I:461[12]]
record of his heraldic seal:
' MENTEITH, Sir William, knight, sheriff of Clackmannan.
A shield of arms couche: On a bend three buckles. Crest: On
a helmet with mantling and wreath, a swan with wings elevated.
Legend (l.c.): ..... Diam. 15/16 in.
Mar Ch., 17 Dec. 1448, p. 3. 10 - Cast. ' [Stevenson, II:504[19]]
Spouse: Helen Livingston
Father: Sir Alexander Livingston of Callendar(-<1451)
Mother: NN Dundas
Children: Elizabeth
Sir William
Archibald
Alexander
John
1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 Elizabeth Menteith
----------------------------------------
Spouse: John Bruce
Death: 1483, murdered (d.v.p.)[23],[24]
Father: Alexander Bruce (-<1487)
Mother: Janet
Children: Sir Robert Bruce of Airth (<1467-ca1519)
Thomas
James
Helen
Elizabeth
1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.2a Sir William Menteith*
----------------------------------------
Occ: laird of Kerse
laird of Kerse[25]
sheriff of Clackmannan
dispensation for his (2nd) marriage to Euphemia Graham:
' 1474, May 12. - Edinburgh. Dispensation by Patrick,
Archbishop of St. Andrew's and legate a latere, for the
marriage of William de Menteith, of the diocese of Dunblane,
and Euphemia Grahame, of the diocese of St. Andrew's, who
are related in the fourth and fourth degrees of consanguinity.
Dated in the third year of Pope Sixtus IV., and the tenth year
of his own consecration. ' [Mar MSS., p. 8[26]]
implicated in the murder of his brother-in-law, John Bruce
of Stanehouse, 1483 [Armstrong, pp. 12-13[23]]
' Jan. 28, 1488-9. - William Menteth of the Kerse, Archibald
of Menteth, his brother, Alex'r M.t for thaim, thair kyn,
and frendis on the ta parte, and Robert Broisse of Arthe,
Alexander, Lucas, and Robert Broisse, for thaim and brether,
kyne, and frendis one the tother parte, bound themselves to
abide by the Sentence of the Lordis of Council, tuiching the
making of amendis for the Slauchter of umquhile Johne, the
Broise of Arthe, and tuiching the making of amite, luf, and
tendirnes to be haid betuix the pairties, in tyme to come. '
[Pitcairn, p. 98[24]]
'William Menteth of the Cars, knt.', party to the concord with his
nephew Robert Bruce (and incl. his brother Archibald Menteith)
concerning the murder of Robert's father John Bruce (in 1483),
as appointed by the Lords of Council at Edinburgh, 18 Oct 1490
[Armstrong, pp. xi-xii[23] ]
he m. 1stly NN,
2ndly Euphemia Graham
Spouse: NN [1st wife]
Children: William Menteith of Kerse (dvp before 1508)
1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.2b Sir William Menteith* (See above)
----------------------------------------
Spouse: Euphemia Graham [2nd wife]
Father: Malise Graham, Earl of Menteith (-<1490)
Mother: Unknown [Anne de Vere, or possibly Marion Campbell]
Marr: ca 1474
1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.3 Archibald Menteith
----------------------------------------
implicated in the murder of his brother-in-law, John Bruce of
Stanehouse, 1483 [Armstrong, pp. 12-13[23]]
' Jan. 28, 1488-9. - William Menteth of the Kerse, Archibald
of Menteth, his brother, Alex'r M.t for thaim, thair kyn,
and frendis on the ta parte, and Robert Broisse of Arthe,
Alexander, Lucas, and Robert Broisse, for thaim and brether,
kyne, and frendis one the tother parte, bound themselves to
abide by the Sentence of the Lordis of Council, tuiching the
making of amendis for the Slauchter of umquhile Johne, the
Broise of Arthe, and tuiching the making of amite, luf, and
tendirnes to be haid betuix the pairties, in tyme to come. '
[Pitcairn, p. 98[24]]
1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.4 Alexander Menteith
----------------------------------------
cf. Pitcairn, p. 98[24]
1. Sir James Balfour Paul, ed., "The Scots Peerage," Edinburgh:
David Douglas, 1904-1914 (9 volumes).
2. William Fraser, ed., "Memoirs of the Maxwells of Pollok,"
Edinburgh, 1863, .pdf image files provided by Genealogy.com
http://www.genealogy.com.
3. "Banff charters, A.D. 1232-1703," London: Oxford University
Press, H. Milford, 1915, courtesy Genealogy.com.
4. Ebenezer Henderson, LL.D, "The Annals of Dunfermline and
Vicinity, from the Earliest Authentic Period to the Present
Time, A.D. 1069 - 1878," Glasgow: John Tweed, 1879, text
available courtesy of Electric Scotland,
http://www.electricscotland.com/history/dunfermline/
5. James Dennistoun, ed., "Cartularium Comitatus de Levenax,"
ab initio seculo decimi tertii usque at annum M.CCC.XCVIII.,
Edinburgh, 1833.
6. Sir Norman Lamont of Knockdow, Bart., F.S.A. (Scot.), "An
Inventory of Lamont Papers, 1231-1897," Presented to the
Scottish Record Society, Edinburgh: J. Skinner & Company,
Ltd., 1914.
7. G. W. S. Barrow, "Robert Bruce and the Community of the Realm
of Scotland," Edinburgh University Press, 1976 (2nd ed.).
8. Leo van de Pas, "Stewart Saga - One," Dec 12, 1998,
GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com.
9. Samuel Cowan, "Three Celtic Earldoms : Atholl, Strathearn,
Menteith," Edinburgh: N. Macleod, 1909, .pdf image files
provided by Genealogy.com http://www.genealogy.com.
10. G. Harvey Johnston, "The Heraldry of the Stewarts,"
Edinburgh: W. & A.K. Johnston, 1906, .pdf image files
provided by Genealogy.com http://www.genealogy.com, p. 64,
Menteith.
11. G. E. Cokayne, "The Complete Peerage," 1910 - [microprint,
1982 (Alan Sutton) ], The Complete Peerage of England Scotland
Ireland Great Britain and the United Kingdom.
12. William Fraser, "The Red Book of Menteith," Edinburgh: 1880,
.pdf image files provided by Genealogy.com http://www.genealogy.com,
history and evidences concerning the Earls and Earldom of Mentieth.
13. "Charters of the Royal Burgh of Ayr," Edinburgh: printed
for The Ayr and Wigton Archaeological Association, 1883.
14. Joseph Stevenson, "Documents illustrative of the history of
Scotland from the death of King Alexander the Third to the
Accession of Robert Bruce," Edinburgh: H. M. General Register
House, 1870 (Vol. I), 1870 (Vol. II).
15. George Crawfurd, "The History of the Shire of Renfrew,"
Paisley: Printed and sold by Alex. Weir, 1782, (originally,
Edinburgh : Printed by James Watson, 1710), [also as cited
by Burke; and Paisley Herald article, F of Barrochan],
' containing a genealogical history of the royal house of
Stewart,..'.
16. "Clan Stirling,"
http://www.clanstirling.org/uploads/ragmanrolls.pdf
provides .pdf file of the names of those who swore
allegiance to Edward I of England at Berwick, 1296
(the 'Ragman Rolls').
17. Alastair Campbell of Airds, "A History of Clan Campbell,"
Edinburgh: Polygon [an imprint of Edinburgh University Press
Ltd.], 2000, Vol. I: From Origins to Flodden.
18. "Calendar of the Close Rolls," Edw I, vol. IV (1296-1302),
London: Printed for His Majesty's Stationery Office by Mackie
& Co., LD., 1906.
19. John Horne Stevenson, K.C. and Marguerite Wood, Ph.D.,
Scottish Heraldic Seals: Royal, Official, Ecclesiastical,
Collegiate, Burghal, Personal, Glasgow: printed by Robert
MacLehose & Coy., Limited at the University Press, 1940
(Vol. II).
20. John Frederick Vaughan Campbell Cawdor, "The Book of the
Thanes of Cawdor: a series of papers selected from the Charter
Room at Cawdor, 1236-1742," Edinburgh: T. Constable, Printer
to Her Majesty, for The Spalding Club, 1859, courtesy
Googlebooks.
21. Albert M. Sterling, "The Sterling Genealogy," New York:
Grafton Press, 1909, .pdf image files provided by
Genealogy.com http://www.genealogy.com.
22. William Robertson, Esq., " An index, drawn up about the
year 1629, of many records of charters, granted by the
different sovereigns of Scotland between the years 1309 and
1413,...," Edinburgh: Printed by Murray & Cochrane, 1798,
full title: An index, drawn up about the year 1629, of many
records of charters, granted by the different sovereigns of
Scotland between the years 1309 and 1413, most of which
records have been long missing., With an introduction,
giving a state, founded on authentic documents still preserved,
of the ancient records of Scotland, which were in that kingdom
in the year 1292., To which are subjoined, indexes of the
persons and places mentioned in those charters, alphabetically
arranged.
23. Major William Bruce Armstrong, "The Bruces of Airth and Their
Cadets," Edinburgh: privately printed, 1892.
24. Robert Pitcairn, Esq., "Criminal Trials in Scotland, From A.D.
M.CCCC.LXXXVIII to A.D. M.DC.XXIV," Vol. I, Part 1, Edinburgh:
William Tait (and London: Longman, Rees, Orme, Brown, Green,
and Longman), 1833.
25. Edwin Brockholst Livingston, "The Livingstons of Callendar and
their Principal Cadets: The history of an old Stirlingshire
family," Edinburgh: T. and A. Constable, 1920, .pdf images
provided by Genealogy.com, http://www.genealogy.com/ re:
the Livingstons of Kilsyth (cf. Chapter IX, THE LIVINGSTONS,
VISCOUNTS OF KILSYTH), pp. 210 et seq.
26. Historical Manuscripts Commission, "Report on the Manuscripts
of the Earl of Mar and Kellie: Preserved at Alloa House, N.B.,"
London: Printed for Her Majesty's Stationery Office, by Ben
Johnson and Company, York, 1904.
* John P. Ravilious
Hello All,
Following is the promised pedigree (down to 1508 anyway) of
Menteith of Kerse. Any additional documentation, comment or
correction is welcome, as always.
Cheers,
John
1 Walter le Steward
----------------------------------------
Death: 1241[1]
Occ: seneschal and justiciar of Scotia
Father: Alan le Steward (-1204)
Spouse: B____ [possibly Bethoc]
Children: Alexander le Stewart (1214-1283)
John (-1249)
Walter (1219-<1296)
1.1 Walter le Steward
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 28 Apr 1296[7],[8],[1]
Birth: 1219[9]
Burial: Inchmahome priory, Menteith[10]
Occ: Earl of Mentieth
Earl of Menteith de jure uxoris
3rd son
' Walter le Senescallus ', one of the Regents of Scotland and
guardians of Alexander III, appointed 20 September 1255[11]
'Hugh de Abyrnethine', received grant of £ 20 lands in Aberfoyle,
Menteith from Isabella, (deprived) countess of Menteith, before
Jan 1261/2 [Red Book of Menteith I:37, II:213, citing grant in
Douglas charter chest[12] ]
' Waltero senescallo ', witness (together with Alexander Comyn,
earl of Buchan and justiciar of Scotia, Patrick, earl of Dunbar,
Aymer de Maxwell the chamberlain, and Hugh de Abernethy) to a
charter of King Alexander III granting a yearly market 'at the
feast of St. John the Baptist, lasting for fifteen following
days' to the Burgh of Ayr, dated at Traquair, 12 Dec 1261
[Chart. Ayr pp. 18-19, No. 11[13]]
he was recognized as Earl of Menteith after the 12 Dec 1261 charter,
but before 19 Jan 1261/2:
' Walterus Senescallus, comes de Menthet ' renewed and confirmed
a grant of the church of Kilcolmanel in Kintyre to the abbey of
Paisley on that date [Red Book of Menteith II:216, citing
Registrum Monasterii de Passelet, p. 121[12] ]
fought at the Battle of Largs, 1263[9]
witness to the marriage contract of Margaret of Scotland and
King Eric of Norway, dated Roxburgh, 25 July 1281 [Cowan p. 94[9] ]
'Walterus Senescallus comes de Menethe ', together with his
sons Alexander and John, entered into a bond with Robert de
Brus, Walter, earl of Menteith and others at Turnberry, 20
Sept 1286 'to adhere to the party of Richard de Burgh, earl
of Ulster and Sir Thomas de Clare ' [Red Book of Menteith
II: 219-220, citing Historical Docs. Scotland, i:22[12] ]
' Gauter de Menetehe ', one of the Earls of Scotland attending
the Parliament at Brigham, which confirmed the Treaty of
Salisbury with England, 14 Mar 1289/90 [Stevenson I:129-130,
No. XCII[14]]
supporter of Bruce the Competitor for the Scots crown, 1291
(Barrow p. 388)[7]:
'Walter, earl of Menteith', one of the auditors for the claim
of Bruce at Berwick, 2 June 1292 [Crawfurd p. 20[15] ]
' Meneteth (Meinteth), comes de, Walterus, (Wautier comte de
Meinteth). ' - swore allegiance to King Edward I at Berwick,
1291 [Ragman Roll[16] ]
' Terra Comitis de Menteth de Knapedal ', his lands in Knapdale
included in the Sheriffdom of Lorne under the ordinance of 1293
[Campbell p. 45[17]]
Spouse: Mary of Menteith
Death: bef 1286[12]
Father: Maelmure 'Og', Earl of Menteith (-1230)
Children: Alexander, Earl of Menteith (-ca1306)
Sir John (-ca1323)
1.1.1 Sir John de Menteith
----------------------------------------
Death: ca 1323
Occ: laird of Ruskie
of Ruskie
' Johannes ', together with his father and brother, entered
into a bond with Robert de Brus, Walter, earl of Menteith and
others at Turnberry, 20 Sept 1286 'to adhere to the party of
Richard de Burgh, earl of Ulster and Sir Thomas de Clare '
[Red Book of Menteith II: 219-220, citing Historical Docs.
Scotland, i:22[12] ]
fought against the English, and captured either at the siege
of Dunbar (1296) or the campaign leading up to the siege:
order dated at Canterbury, 6 June 1297:
' To the sheriff of Nottingham. Whereas the king lately
ordered Walter de Gousill, late sheriff of that county, to
cause Edmund Comyn of Kilbride, John de Meneteth, knights,
Michael Miggel, Walter de Bosevill, William Curry and Robert
de Lecheham, esquires, prisoners lately taken in the castle
of Dumbar in Scotland and in the conflict there and
imprisoned in Notingham castle, to have their wages, to wit
each knight 4d. a day, each squire 3d. a day and 3d. a day
for each of their keepers, until otherwise ordered: the
king orders the sheriff to cause the prisoners and their
keepers to have the wages aforesaid. '
[CCR (Edw. I, 1296-1302) IV:34[18]]
supporter of King Edward I of England in his claims over
Scotland: petitioner for the lands of the Earl of Lennox
[Barrow, p. 448[7]]
'Earl of Lennox' as designated by Edward I of England
captor of Sir William Wallace, 1305
record of his heraldic seal, dated ca. 1305:
' MENTEITH, Sir John, of Rusky, younger son of Walter Stewart,
fifth Earl of Menteith. This was probably the betrayer of
Wallace. He died c. A.D. 1325. A shield of arms: A fess
chequy with a label of five points in chief surmounted of a
bend charged with three [alerions]. Shield on the breast
of an eagle displayed with two heads. Legend (caps.):
SIGILL' IOHANNIS DE MENETET. Beaded borders.
Diam. 7/8 in. Laing, ii. 722. Record Off., c. 1305,
detached seal ll; Bain, ii. pl. i. fig. 11. Red Book
of Menteith, ii. 461, fig. 3. ' [Stevenson, II:503[19]]
received as returned loyal subject by Robert the Bruce -
attended the Scots Parliament at St. Andrews, March 1308/9
(Barrow p. 265)[7]
an envoy of King Robert, together with Sir Neil Campbell: had
a letter of safe conduct from King Edward II of England in
order to treat with Richard de Burgh, Earl of Ulster, August
1309 [Campbell, I:68[17]]
' Sir John de Menteith ', witness [ together with Malcolm,
Earl of Lennox, Sir Neil Campbell - "Testibus Domino
Bernardo Cancellario nostro . Malcolmo Comite de Leuenox .
Johanne de Meneteth et Nigello Cambel militibus "] to
charter of King Robert I to William, thane of Cawdor,
dated at 'Lochbren', 8 Aug 1310 [Cawdor, pp. 3-4[20]]
'John Menteith, tutor of the earldom of Menteith', Surety of
the Arbroath Declaration, 6 April 1320 (Barrow pp. 424-8)[7]
Spouse: NN
Children: Helen, m. Sir Colin Campbell
Joanna, m. lstly Malise, Earl of Strathearn,
2ndly John Campbell, Earl of Athol,
3rdly Maurice Murray,
4thly (as 2nd wife) William, Earl of Sutherland
Walter
Sir John, lord of Knapdale and Arran
1.1.1.1 Walter de Menteith
----------------------------------------
Occ: laird of Ruskie
laird of Ruskie[12]
' domino Waltero de Menetheth ', had a charter from his cousin
Murdoch, earl of Menteith for the lands of Thom and Lanarkynys
in Menteith, and fishing rights in the river Teith, ca. 1330
[Red Book of Menteith II:225-7[12]]
Children: Sir Alexander Menteith of Ruskie
John (-<1382)
Walter
Malcolm
William
1.1.1.1.1 John Menteith
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 22 Oct 1382[12],[21]
laird of Kerse (de jure uxoris)
Sheriff of Clackmannan:
' dominum Willelmum comitem de Sotheyrland, et dominam Johannam
comitissam, sponsam suam, comitissam, videlicet, de
Stratheryn ', granted certain lands to William Murray of
Tullibody - grant of ward by John de Menteith, her kinsman,
as sheriff of Clackmannan, 31 May 1352 [Red Book of Menteith
II:234, no. 25[12] ]
re: his wife:
' David II, by charter dated January 25, in the twenty-eighth
year of his reign (1357), restored Marjory and John to her
offices and estates, to be held by them and the heirs of their
marriage, whom failing, the lawful heirs of Marjory, in the
same way as John de Strevylyn, her father, held the same.
' King Robert II confirmed a resignation made at Scone, in the
Parliament held there on October 22, 1382, by Marjory Stirling,
daughter and heiress of the late John de Stirling, to William
Monteith, her son and heir and Elizabeth, his spouse, of the
said offices and estates and also the tenantries of Ochiltree
and Pardovane, in the barony of West Kerse, reserving the
life rent of Marjory.' [Sterling, p. 29[21] ]
charter of confirmation by King David II:
‘12.- To John Monteith and Marjorie de Striveling, daughter to John
Stirling, vic. de Clackmannan et dominum de Cars et de Striveling
et Aluethe, of the said lands, by resignation of his said spouse in
the King’s hands, in favour of her spouse. ‘ [Robertson's Index,
p. 30, no. 12[22]]
Spouse: Mary Stirling
Death: aft 22 Oct 1382[21]
Father: Sir John Stirling of Kerse (-<1356)
Marr: bef 25 Jan 1356[12],[10]
Children: Sir William (<1361->1411)
NN (-<1382), m. Sir John Livingston of Callendar
1.1.1.1.1.1 Sir William Menteith
----------------------------------------
Birth: bef 22 Oct 1361[12]
Death: aft 16 May 1411[12]
Occ: laird of Kerse
laird of Kerse[10]
evidently b. before 22 Oct 1361, as he was evidently of age (i.e.
aged 21 or more) when he received lands of Kerse & c. on the
resignation of his mother on 22 Oct 1382:
' King Robert II confirmed a resignation made at Scone, in the
Parliament held there on October 22, 1382, by Marjory Stirling,
daughter and heiress of the late John de Stirling, to William
Monteith, her son and heir and Elizabeth, his spouse, of the
said offices and estates and also the tenantries of Ochiltree
and Pardovane, in the barony of West Kerse, reserving the
life rent of Marjory.' [Sterling, p. 29[21] ]
re: his wife:
"Elizabeth, spouse of William 'Monteith' " , named in resignation
by Marjory Stirling, mother of William at Scone, October 22,
1382 - Sterling, p. 29[21]
Fraser identified her as
' Elizabeth, daughter of Graham ' [Red Book of Menteith, I:461[12]]
~ she evidently was a dau. of Sir David de Graham and Helen of
Strathearn (m. bef 9 Oct 1353). Her great-grandson Sir William
Menteith had dispensation to marry Euphemia Graham, related to
him in the 4th and 4th degrees (i.e. 3rd cousins). She was a
great-granddaughter of Elizabeth Graham's brother, Sir Patrick
Graham).
Spouse: Elizabeth Graham
Father: Sir David de Graham (<1324->1373)
Mother: Helen of Strathearn
Marr: bef 22 Oct 1382[21]
Children: William (<1390-)
1.1.1.1.1.1.1 William Menteith
----------------------------------------
Birth: bef 16 May 1390[12]
laird of Kerse
he was evidently b. before 16 May 1390, as he was of age (i.e. age 21
or more) when he had a charter for the lands resigned by his father,
dated 16 May 1411: Fraser described him as William Menteith,
' Who had, on his father's resignation on 16th May 1411, a charter
from Robert, Duke of Albany, Regent of Scotland, of the baronies
of Wester Kerse and Alva. ' [Red Book of Menteith, I:461] [12]
Fraser conflated him with his son William Menteith (who m. Helen
Livingston) [Red Book of Menteith, I:461] [12]
Children: Sir William (->1448)
1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 Sir William Menteith
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 17 Dec 1448[19]
Occ: laird of Kerse
laird of Kerse[23],[10]
sheriff of Clackmannan
' He married Helen, a daughter of Sir Alexander Livingston of
Callendar, by whom he had issue. ' [Red Book of Menteith, I:461[12]]
record of his heraldic seal:
' MENTEITH, Sir William, knight, sheriff of Clackmannan.
A shield of arms couche: On a bend three buckles. Crest: On
a helmet with mantling and wreath, a swan with wings elevated.
Legend (l.c.): ..... Diam. 15/16 in.
Mar Ch., 17 Dec. 1448, p. 3. 10 - Cast. ' [Stevenson, II:504[19]]
Spouse: Helen Livingston
Father: Sir Alexander Livingston of Callendar(-<1451)
Mother: NN Dundas
Children: Elizabeth
Sir William
Archibald
Alexander
John
1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 Elizabeth Menteith
----------------------------------------
Spouse: John Bruce
Death: 1483, murdered (d.v.p.)[23],[24]
Father: Alexander Bruce (-<1487)
Mother: Janet
Children: Sir Robert Bruce of Airth (<1467-ca1519)
Thomas
James
Helen
Elizabeth
1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.2a Sir William Menteith*
----------------------------------------
Occ: laird of Kerse
laird of Kerse[25]
sheriff of Clackmannan
dispensation for his (2nd) marriage to Euphemia Graham:
' 1474, May 12. - Edinburgh. Dispensation by Patrick,
Archbishop of St. Andrew's and legate a latere, for the
marriage of William de Menteith, of the diocese of Dunblane,
and Euphemia Grahame, of the diocese of St. Andrew's, who
are related in the fourth and fourth degrees of consanguinity.
Dated in the third year of Pope Sixtus IV., and the tenth year
of his own consecration. ' [Mar MSS., p. 8[26]]
implicated in the murder of his brother-in-law, John Bruce
of Stanehouse, 1483 [Armstrong, pp. 12-13[23]]
' Jan. 28, 1488-9. - William Menteth of the Kerse, Archibald
of Menteth, his brother, Alex'r M.t for thaim, thair kyn,
and frendis on the ta parte, and Robert Broisse of Arthe,
Alexander, Lucas, and Robert Broisse, for thaim and brether,
kyne, and frendis one the tother parte, bound themselves to
abide by the Sentence of the Lordis of Council, tuiching the
making of amendis for the Slauchter of umquhile Johne, the
Broise of Arthe, and tuiching the making of amite, luf, and
tendirnes to be haid betuix the pairties, in tyme to come. '
[Pitcairn, p. 98[24]]
'William Menteth of the Cars, knt.', party to the concord with his
nephew Robert Bruce (and incl. his brother Archibald Menteith)
concerning the murder of Robert's father John Bruce (in 1483),
as appointed by the Lords of Council at Edinburgh, 18 Oct 1490
[Armstrong, pp. xi-xii[23] ]
he m. 1stly NN,
2ndly Euphemia Graham
Spouse: NN [1st wife]
Children: William Menteith of Kerse (dvp before 1508)
1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.2b Sir William Menteith* (See above)
----------------------------------------
Spouse: Euphemia Graham [2nd wife]
Father: Malise Graham, Earl of Menteith (-<1490)
Mother: Unknown [Anne de Vere, or possibly Marion Campbell]
Marr: ca 1474
1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.3 Archibald Menteith
----------------------------------------
implicated in the murder of his brother-in-law, John Bruce of
Stanehouse, 1483 [Armstrong, pp. 12-13[23]]
' Jan. 28, 1488-9. - William Menteth of the Kerse, Archibald
of Menteth, his brother, Alex'r M.t for thaim, thair kyn,
and frendis on the ta parte, and Robert Broisse of Arthe,
Alexander, Lucas, and Robert Broisse, for thaim and brether,
kyne, and frendis one the tother parte, bound themselves to
abide by the Sentence of the Lordis of Council, tuiching the
making of amendis for the Slauchter of umquhile Johne, the
Broise of Arthe, and tuiching the making of amite, luf, and
tendirnes to be haid betuix the pairties, in tyme to come. '
[Pitcairn, p. 98[24]]
1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.4 Alexander Menteith
----------------------------------------
cf. Pitcairn, p. 98[24]
1. Sir James Balfour Paul, ed., "The Scots Peerage," Edinburgh:
David Douglas, 1904-1914 (9 volumes).
2. William Fraser, ed., "Memoirs of the Maxwells of Pollok,"
Edinburgh, 1863, .pdf image files provided by Genealogy.com
http://www.genealogy.com.
3. "Banff charters, A.D. 1232-1703," London: Oxford University
Press, H. Milford, 1915, courtesy Genealogy.com.
4. Ebenezer Henderson, LL.D, "The Annals of Dunfermline and
Vicinity, from the Earliest Authentic Period to the Present
Time, A.D. 1069 - 1878," Glasgow: John Tweed, 1879, text
available courtesy of Electric Scotland,
http://www.electricscotland.com/history/dunfermline/
5. James Dennistoun, ed., "Cartularium Comitatus de Levenax,"
ab initio seculo decimi tertii usque at annum M.CCC.XCVIII.,
Edinburgh, 1833.
6. Sir Norman Lamont of Knockdow, Bart., F.S.A. (Scot.), "An
Inventory of Lamont Papers, 1231-1897," Presented to the
Scottish Record Society, Edinburgh: J. Skinner & Company,
Ltd., 1914.
7. G. W. S. Barrow, "Robert Bruce and the Community of the Realm
of Scotland," Edinburgh University Press, 1976 (2nd ed.).
8. Leo van de Pas, "Stewart Saga - One," Dec 12, 1998,
GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com.
9. Samuel Cowan, "Three Celtic Earldoms : Atholl, Strathearn,
Menteith," Edinburgh: N. Macleod, 1909, .pdf image files
provided by Genealogy.com http://www.genealogy.com.
10. G. Harvey Johnston, "The Heraldry of the Stewarts,"
Edinburgh: W. & A.K. Johnston, 1906, .pdf image files
provided by Genealogy.com http://www.genealogy.com, p. 64,
Menteith.
11. G. E. Cokayne, "The Complete Peerage," 1910 - [microprint,
1982 (Alan Sutton) ], The Complete Peerage of England Scotland
Ireland Great Britain and the United Kingdom.
12. William Fraser, "The Red Book of Menteith," Edinburgh: 1880,
.pdf image files provided by Genealogy.com http://www.genealogy.com,
history and evidences concerning the Earls and Earldom of Mentieth.
13. "Charters of the Royal Burgh of Ayr," Edinburgh: printed
for The Ayr and Wigton Archaeological Association, 1883.
14. Joseph Stevenson, "Documents illustrative of the history of
Scotland from the death of King Alexander the Third to the
Accession of Robert Bruce," Edinburgh: H. M. General Register
House, 1870 (Vol. I), 1870 (Vol. II).
15. George Crawfurd, "The History of the Shire of Renfrew,"
Paisley: Printed and sold by Alex. Weir, 1782, (originally,
Edinburgh : Printed by James Watson, 1710), [also as cited
by Burke; and Paisley Herald article, F of Barrochan],
' containing a genealogical history of the royal house of
Stewart,..'.
16. "Clan Stirling,"
http://www.clanstirling.org/uploads/ragmanrolls.pdf
provides .pdf file of the names of those who swore
allegiance to Edward I of England at Berwick, 1296
(the 'Ragman Rolls').
17. Alastair Campbell of Airds, "A History of Clan Campbell,"
Edinburgh: Polygon [an imprint of Edinburgh University Press
Ltd.], 2000, Vol. I: From Origins to Flodden.
18. "Calendar of the Close Rolls," Edw I, vol. IV (1296-1302),
London: Printed for His Majesty's Stationery Office by Mackie
& Co., LD., 1906.
19. John Horne Stevenson, K.C. and Marguerite Wood, Ph.D.,
Scottish Heraldic Seals: Royal, Official, Ecclesiastical,
Collegiate, Burghal, Personal, Glasgow: printed by Robert
MacLehose & Coy., Limited at the University Press, 1940
(Vol. II).
20. John Frederick Vaughan Campbell Cawdor, "The Book of the
Thanes of Cawdor: a series of papers selected from the Charter
Room at Cawdor, 1236-1742," Edinburgh: T. Constable, Printer
to Her Majesty, for The Spalding Club, 1859, courtesy
Googlebooks.
21. Albert M. Sterling, "The Sterling Genealogy," New York:
Grafton Press, 1909, .pdf image files provided by
Genealogy.com http://www.genealogy.com.
22. William Robertson, Esq., " An index, drawn up about the
year 1629, of many records of charters, granted by the
different sovereigns of Scotland between the years 1309 and
1413,...," Edinburgh: Printed by Murray & Cochrane, 1798,
full title: An index, drawn up about the year 1629, of many
records of charters, granted by the different sovereigns of
Scotland between the years 1309 and 1413, most of which
records have been long missing., With an introduction,
giving a state, founded on authentic documents still preserved,
of the ancient records of Scotland, which were in that kingdom
in the year 1292., To which are subjoined, indexes of the
persons and places mentioned in those charters, alphabetically
arranged.
23. Major William Bruce Armstrong, "The Bruces of Airth and Their
Cadets," Edinburgh: privately printed, 1892.
24. Robert Pitcairn, Esq., "Criminal Trials in Scotland, From A.D.
M.CCCC.LXXXVIII to A.D. M.DC.XXIV," Vol. I, Part 1, Edinburgh:
William Tait (and London: Longman, Rees, Orme, Brown, Green,
and Longman), 1833.
25. Edwin Brockholst Livingston, "The Livingstons of Callendar and
their Principal Cadets: The history of an old Stirlingshire
family," Edinburgh: T. and A. Constable, 1920, .pdf images
provided by Genealogy.com, http://www.genealogy.com/ re:
the Livingstons of Kilsyth (cf. Chapter IX, THE LIVINGSTONS,
VISCOUNTS OF KILSYTH), pp. 210 et seq.
26. Historical Manuscripts Commission, "Report on the Manuscripts
of the Earl of Mar and Kellie: Preserved at Alloa House, N.B.,"
London: Printed for Her Majesty's Stationery Office, by Ben
Johnson and Company, York, 1904.
* John P. Ravilious
-
Gjest
Re: Menteith of Kerse: a reexamination
In a message dated 9/4/06 12:52:59 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Therav3 writes:
<< It is interesting that the above dispensation
was not noted by Fraser: it is possible the marriage never took
place. Euphemia is known to have married Sir William Stewart of
Dalswinton, and to have been alive in October 1495 [4]. >>
I also have this same Euphemia Graham married to "Robert Vaux of Barnbarroch"
Is this correct? And if so would Robert be her third husband? Or second?
Thanks
Will
<< It is interesting that the above dispensation
was not noted by Fraser: it is possible the marriage never took
place. Euphemia is known to have married Sir William Stewart of
Dalswinton, and to have been alive in October 1495 [4]. >>
I also have this same Euphemia Graham married to "Robert Vaux of Barnbarroch"
Is this correct? And if so would Robert be her third husband? Or second?
Thanks
Will
-
Gjest
Re: Menteith of Kerse: a reexamination
In a message dated 9/4/06 1:03:02 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Therav3 writes:
<< 1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 Sir William Menteith
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 17 Dec 1448[19]
laird of Kerse[23],[10]
sheriff of Clackmannan
' He married Helen, a daughter of Sir Alexander Livingston of
Callendar, by whom he had issue. ' [Red Book of Menteith, I:461[12]] >>
Wasn't she his second-cousin ?
Helen dau of Alexander son of John and Miss Menteith dau of John
Menteith/Margery Stirling
William Menteith son of William son of William son of John Menteith/Margery
Stirling
<< 1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 Sir William Menteith
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 17 Dec 1448[19]
laird of Kerse[23],[10]
sheriff of Clackmannan
' He married Helen, a daughter of Sir Alexander Livingston of
Callendar, by whom he had issue. ' [Red Book of Menteith, I:461[12]] >>
Wasn't she his second-cousin ?
Helen dau of Alexander son of John and Miss Menteith dau of John
Menteith/Margery Stirling
William Menteith son of William son of William son of John Menteith/Margery
Stirling
-
Gjest
Re: Amy (Kempe) Skipwith
In a message dated 9/4/06 7:31:11 PM Pacific Daylight Time, mhollick@mac.com
writes:
<< The Amie (sic) Kempe baptised on 7 October 1576 at Dartford, Kent, died
on 12 October 1576 there, according to the parish registers.
Thank you that is a great relief
Will
writes:
<< The Amie (sic) Kempe baptised on 7 October 1576 at Dartford, Kent, died
on 12 October 1576 there, according to the parish registers.
Thank you that is a great relief
Will
-
Gjest
Re: Menteith of Kerse: a reexamination
Dear Will,
According to our friends at "Stirnet", this would appear to be correct.
I am not certain about the documentation concerning the alleged Vaux (or
'Vans') marriage; also, as I stated in the original post,
' It is interesting that the above dispensation
was not noted by Fraser: it is possible the marriage
never took place. '
What the numeration of the marriages were in fact for Euphemia Graham
certainly deserves further consideration.
Cheers,
John
According to our friends at "Stirnet", this would appear to be correct.
I am not certain about the documentation concerning the alleged Vaux (or
'Vans') marriage; also, as I stated in the original post,
' It is interesting that the above dispensation
was not noted by Fraser: it is possible the marriage
never took place. '
What the numeration of the marriages were in fact for Euphemia Graham
certainly deserves further consideration.
Cheers,
John
-
Gjest
Re: Menteith of Kerse: a reexamination
Dear Will,
Yes, based on the traditional Livingston pedigree and my revised
Menteith pedigree, they were 2nd cousins * .
This would certainly have required a dispensation. With a
large amount of luck, this may eventually be noted.
Cheers,
John
* Not proof in either direction, but the Menteith pedigree as
accepted to date places the relationship as 1st cousins 1x
removed (i.e., 2nd and 3rd degree).
Yes, based on the traditional Livingston pedigree and my revised
Menteith pedigree, they were 2nd cousins * .
This would certainly have required a dispensation. With a
large amount of luck, this may eventually be noted.
Cheers,
John
* Not proof in either direction, but the Menteith pedigree as
accepted to date places the relationship as 1st cousins 1x
removed (i.e., 2nd and 3rd degree).
-
Gjest
Re: Lorette de Dover, wife of William Marmion
In a message dated 9/5/06 12:59:31 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
sysite@swbell.net writes:
<< The CP, Vol 8 at 518, includes the following: He [William Marmion] m.,
... 1248 Lorette, da. of Royce, da. and h. of Robert de Dover. >>
Perhaps there was more than one "Royce".
Living Descendents of Blood Royal, Vol 2, "Evans", pg 330-334, Count
d'Angerville; World Nobility, London. 1962
Citing CP II, 127
says that Richard FitzRoy m Rohese, d 1264/5, dau of FULBERT of Dover
instead of the "Robert" you have above.
Will
sysite@swbell.net writes:
<< The CP, Vol 8 at 518, includes the following: He [William Marmion] m.,
... 1248 Lorette, da. of Royce, da. and h. of Robert de Dover. >>
Perhaps there was more than one "Royce".
Living Descendents of Blood Royal, Vol 2, "Evans", pg 330-334, Count
d'Angerville; World Nobility, London. 1962
Citing CP II, 127
says that Richard FitzRoy m Rohese, d 1264/5, dau of FULBERT of Dover
instead of the "Robert" you have above.
Will
-
Symonds
Re: Lorette de Dover, wife of William Marmion
Thank you, Will, for your reply. In checking the citation to CP II at
127, I found: "He [Maurice de Berkeley] m., before 12 July 1247, Isabel,
da. of Richard Fitzroy (illegit. s. of King John), by Rohese, da. and h.
of ROBERT of Dover." Citing G. J. Turner in The Genealogist, Oct. 1905.
I did not find any mention of FULBERT of Dover.
On first impression, it appears that there perhaps are indeed two or
more persons named Royce or Rohese.
Marilyn
127, I found: "He [Maurice de Berkeley] m., before 12 July 1247, Isabel,
da. of Richard Fitzroy (illegit. s. of King John), by Rohese, da. and h.
of ROBERT of Dover." Citing G. J. Turner in The Genealogist, Oct. 1905.
I did not find any mention of FULBERT of Dover.
On first impression, it appears that there perhaps are indeed two or
more persons named Royce or Rohese.
Marilyn
sysite@swbell.net writes:
The CP, Vol 8 at 518, includes the following: He [William Marmion] m.,
... 1248 Lorette, da. of Royce, da. and h. of Robert de Dover.
Perhaps there was more than one "Royce".
Living Descendents of Blood Royal, Vol 2, "Evans", pg 330-334, Count
d'Angerville; World Nobility, London. 1962
Citing CP II, 127
says that Richard FitzRoy m Rohese, d 1264/5, dau of FULBERT of Dover
instead of the "Robert" you have above.
Will
-
Gjest
Re: Lorette de Dover, wife of William Marmion
In a message dated 9/5/06 12:59:31 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
sysite@swbell.net writes:
<< Subj: Lorette de Dover, wife of William Marmion
Date: 9/5/06 12:59:31 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: sysite@swbell.net (Symonds)
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
The CP, Vol 8 at 518, includes the following: He [William Marmion] m.,
... 1248 Lorette, da. of Royce, da. and h. of Robert de Dover. The
citation is to Pytchley at 48, stating that by the charter of 1248 Royce
de Dover granted her manor of Luddington to William Marmion, son of
Robert Marmyon the younger, and her da. Lorette, his wife. >>
By the way, can anyone clarify which Robert Marmion this refers to ?
I have
1) Robert Marmion d bef 1218 son of Robert Marmion d bef 1181 by Maud
Beauchamp
2) Robert Marmion d bef 1181 son of Robert Marion by Millicent of Rethel
3) Robert Marmion d 1241/3 married Juliane de Vassy
Thanks
Will
sysite@swbell.net writes:
<< Subj: Lorette de Dover, wife of William Marmion
Date: 9/5/06 12:59:31 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: sysite@swbell.net (Symonds)
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
The CP, Vol 8 at 518, includes the following: He [William Marmion] m.,
... 1248 Lorette, da. of Royce, da. and h. of Robert de Dover. The
citation is to Pytchley at 48, stating that by the charter of 1248 Royce
de Dover granted her manor of Luddington to William Marmion, son of
Robert Marmyon the younger, and her da. Lorette, his wife. >>
By the way, can anyone clarify which Robert Marmion this refers to ?
I have
1) Robert Marmion d bef 1218 son of Robert Marmion d bef 1181 by Maud
Beauchamp
2) Robert Marmion d bef 1181 son of Robert Marion by Millicent of Rethel
3) Robert Marmion d 1241/3 married Juliane de Vassy
Thanks
Will
-
Symonds
Re: Lorette de Dover, wife of William Marmion
The CP, Vol. 8 at 507, chart:
Robert Marmion (d.c. 1241-43) m. Juliane de Vassy, was son of Robert
Marmion (dead 1218) and wife Maud de Beauchamp, but this Robert Marmion
(dead 1218) married secondly Philippe and had son Robert Marmion (d.c.
1241) who married Avice, da. of Gernegan, s. of Hugh de Tanfield, living
1284.
Parents of Robert Marmion (dead 1218):
Robert Marmion, (d.c. 1181) and ?Elizabeth, da. of Gervase, s. of Hugh,
Count of Rethel).
Parents of Robert Marmion (d. c. 1181):
Robert Marmion (d. 1143-44) and Milicent (also married Richard de Canville)
Parents of Robert Marmion (d. 1143-44):
Roger Marmion (d. c. 1130) and ?da. of Urse d'Abetot
Parents of Roger Marmion believed to be:
Robert Marmion (d.c. 1106) and Hawise
Marilyn
WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
Robert Marmion (d.c. 1241-43) m. Juliane de Vassy, was son of Robert
Marmion (dead 1218) and wife Maud de Beauchamp, but this Robert Marmion
(dead 1218) married secondly Philippe and had son Robert Marmion (d.c.
1241) who married Avice, da. of Gernegan, s. of Hugh de Tanfield, living
1284.
Parents of Robert Marmion (dead 1218):
Robert Marmion, (d.c. 1181) and ?Elizabeth, da. of Gervase, s. of Hugh,
Count of Rethel).
Parents of Robert Marmion (d. c. 1181):
Robert Marmion (d. 1143-44) and Milicent (also married Richard de Canville)
Parents of Robert Marmion (d. 1143-44):
Roger Marmion (d. c. 1130) and ?da. of Urse d'Abetot
Parents of Roger Marmion believed to be:
Robert Marmion (d.c. 1106) and Hawise
Marilyn
WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 9/5/06 12:59:31 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
sysite@swbell.net writes:
Subj: Lorette de Dover, wife of William Marmion
Date: 9/5/06 12:59:31 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: sysite@swbell.net (Symonds)
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
The CP, Vol 8 at 518, includes the following: He [William Marmion] m.,
... 1248 Lorette, da. of Royce, da. and h. of Robert de Dover. The
citation is to Pytchley at 48, stating that by the charter of 1248 Royce
de Dover granted her manor of Luddington to William Marmion, son of
Robert Marmyon the younger, and her da. Lorette, his wife.
By the way, can anyone clarify which Robert Marmion this refers to ?
I have
1) Robert Marmion d bef 1218 son of Robert Marmion d bef 1181 by Maud
Beauchamp
2) Robert Marmion d bef 1181 son of Robert Marion by Millicent of Rethel
3) Robert Marmion d 1241/3 married Juliane de Vassy
Thanks
Will
-
John P. Ravilious
Re: The Comyn / Athol connection: A Hypothesis
Message re-sent [apparent problems again between AOL and Rootsweb]
Subj: Re: The Comyn / Athol connection : A Hypothesis
Date: 9/5/2006 11:31:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time
From: Therav3
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com, Jwc1870
Dear James,
Thanks for your post re: Patrick, Earl of Athol.
When we last left Henry, Earl of Athol, I believe there is
some chronological discomfort over placing him as a son of
Hextilda of Tynedale (by Malcolm, Earl of Athol). However, the
connection between Henry's grandson Patrick and Walter Comyn,
Earl of Menteith was evidently one by blood, and not by Walter's
marriage to Isabel of Menteith.
As mentioned by Chris Phillips a while back, and myself on
17 August (thread on Odinel and Simon Comyn), reference was made
to Alexander Comyn of Buchan and John Comyn (evidently of
Badenoch) as 'cognati' [kinsmen on his mother's side] of Earl
Patrick. There is no known relationship between the Earls of
Menteith and these two branches of the Comyn families of which
I am aware:
Richard Comyn = Hextilda of Tyndale = Malcolm of Athol
______I I
I I
1) Sarah = William = 2) Marjory Henry of Athol
I I of Buchan = Margaret
____I_________ I___________ ___I____________
I I I I I
Richard Walter Alexander Isabel Forbflaith
Comyn E of Menteith E of = Thomas
I Buchan of Galloway
I I
I I
John Comyn Patrick
E of Athol
* Note also: Patrick's father was Thomas, a younger son of
Roland (formerly Lachlan), Lord of Galloway and younger brother
of the well-known Alan of Galloway.
The one link I still see (hanging perhaps by a genealogical
thread) is through Hextilda of Tynedale.
Cheers,
John
Subj: The Comyn / Athol connection : A Hypothesis
Date: 9/5/2006 7:24:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time
From: Jwc1870@aol.com
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
CC: Jwc1870@AOL..com
Dear John and others,
As We know now, Patrick of Galloway,
Earl of
Athol (murdered 1242) was apparently not a great grandson of Hextilda
of
Tynedale, successively wife of Richard Comyn, Lord of Northallerton
(and Bedrule
jure uxoris) d bet 1179-82 and of Malcolm, 2nd Earl of Athol d bet
1186-1198. Likewise there is no apparent connection to the Lords of
Galloway.
So William Comyn and Henry were step
brothers
and both married after the joint donation of Malcolm, Earl of Athol
and
William Comyn in 1182 to the Church of Saint Cuthbert in Durham,
England. The
fact that it was made together underscores the fact that William and
Malcolm got
along well together. It is likely that William and Henry had a similar
relationship. Henry, Earl of Athol married one Margaret whom John
Ravilious suspects
to be a daughter of Alwyn II, Earl of Lennox, whom according to CP VII:
589
was married to Eve, daughter of Gilchrist, Earl of Menteith and sister
of his
sons Maelmure I Mor and Maelmure II Og, successive Earls of Menteith.
Maelmure I was dispossessed for unknown reasons (perhaps illegitimacy?)
and Maelmure
II had two daughters Isabel and Mary. Isabel married before 1235 Walter
Comyn
jure uxoris Earl of Menteith. If Margaret were Eve`s daughter, She was
a
cousin to Maelmure II, Menteith`s daughters Isabel and Mary and thus
considered to
be the cousin of their husbands, respectively Walter Comyn and John
Russell
as well as Walter Stewart , all jure uxoris Earl of Menteith. Margaret
and
Henry, Earl of Athol had daughters Isabel and Fernelith.Walter appears
to have
aided Margaret or perhaps Isabel in some fashion after their husband
(Henry or
Thomas of Galloway died) If the latter, it was just prior to becoming
Earl of
Menteith.
Sincerely,
James W
Cummings
Dixmont,
Maine USA
Subj: Re: The Comyn / Athol connection : A Hypothesis
Date: 9/5/2006 11:31:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time
From: Therav3
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com, Jwc1870
Dear James,
Thanks for your post re: Patrick, Earl of Athol.
When we last left Henry, Earl of Athol, I believe there is
some chronological discomfort over placing him as a son of
Hextilda of Tynedale (by Malcolm, Earl of Athol). However, the
connection between Henry's grandson Patrick and Walter Comyn,
Earl of Menteith was evidently one by blood, and not by Walter's
marriage to Isabel of Menteith.
As mentioned by Chris Phillips a while back, and myself on
17 August (thread on Odinel and Simon Comyn), reference was made
to Alexander Comyn of Buchan and John Comyn (evidently of
Badenoch) as 'cognati' [kinsmen on his mother's side] of Earl
Patrick. There is no known relationship between the Earls of
Menteith and these two branches of the Comyn families of which
I am aware:
Richard Comyn = Hextilda of Tyndale = Malcolm of Athol
______I I
I I
1) Sarah = William = 2) Marjory Henry of Athol
I I of Buchan = Margaret
____I_________ I___________ ___I____________
I I I I I
Richard Walter Alexander Isabel Forbflaith
Comyn E of Menteith E of = Thomas
I Buchan of Galloway
I I
I I
John Comyn Patrick
E of Athol
* Note also: Patrick's father was Thomas, a younger son of
Roland (formerly Lachlan), Lord of Galloway and younger brother
of the well-known Alan of Galloway.
The one link I still see (hanging perhaps by a genealogical
thread) is through Hextilda of Tynedale.
Cheers,
John
Subj: The Comyn / Athol connection : A Hypothesis
Date: 9/5/2006 7:24:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time
From: Jwc1870@aol.com
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
CC: Jwc1870@AOL..com
Dear John and others,
As We know now, Patrick of Galloway,
Earl of
Athol (murdered 1242) was apparently not a great grandson of Hextilda
of
Tynedale, successively wife of Richard Comyn, Lord of Northallerton
(and Bedrule
jure uxoris) d bet 1179-82 and of Malcolm, 2nd Earl of Athol d bet
1186-1198. Likewise there is no apparent connection to the Lords of
Galloway.
So William Comyn and Henry were step
brothers
and both married after the joint donation of Malcolm, Earl of Athol
and
William Comyn in 1182 to the Church of Saint Cuthbert in Durham,
England. The
fact that it was made together underscores the fact that William and
Malcolm got
along well together. It is likely that William and Henry had a similar
relationship. Henry, Earl of Athol married one Margaret whom John
Ravilious suspects
to be a daughter of Alwyn II, Earl of Lennox, whom according to CP VII:
589
was married to Eve, daughter of Gilchrist, Earl of Menteith and sister
of his
sons Maelmure I Mor and Maelmure II Og, successive Earls of Menteith.
Maelmure I was dispossessed for unknown reasons (perhaps illegitimacy?)
and Maelmure
II had two daughters Isabel and Mary. Isabel married before 1235 Walter
Comyn
jure uxoris Earl of Menteith. If Margaret were Eve`s daughter, She was
a
cousin to Maelmure II, Menteith`s daughters Isabel and Mary and thus
considered to
be the cousin of their husbands, respectively Walter Comyn and John
Russell
as well as Walter Stewart , all jure uxoris Earl of Menteith. Margaret
and
Henry, Earl of Athol had daughters Isabel and Fernelith.Walter appears
to have
aided Margaret or perhaps Isabel in some fashion after their husband
(Henry or
Thomas of Galloway died) If the latter, it was just prior to becoming
Earl of
Menteith.
Sincerely,
James W
Cummings
Dixmont,
Maine USA
-
Symonds
Re: Lorette de Dover, wife of William Marmion
I suspect that Lorette (wife of William Marmion (dead 1276) and Isabel
(wife of Maurice de Berkeley (d. 4 Apr 1281) were both daughters of
Richard Fitzroy (illegit. s. of King John), and Rohese (Royce), and
further that Rohese (Royce) was the daughter and heir of Robert de
Dover. According to Chris Phillips' CP Corrections, Isabel was the widow
of Ralph de Plaiz.
Marilyn
(wife of Maurice de Berkeley (d. 4 Apr 1281) were both daughters of
Richard Fitzroy (illegit. s. of King John), and Rohese (Royce), and
further that Rohese (Royce) was the daughter and heir of Robert de
Dover. According to Chris Phillips' CP Corrections, Isabel was the widow
of Ralph de Plaiz.
Marilyn
Subj: Lorette de Dover, wife of William Marmion
Date: 9/5/06 12:59:31 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: sysite@swbell.net (Symonds)
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
The CP, Vol 8 at 518, includes the following: He [William Marmion] m.,
... 1248 Lorette, da. of Royce, da. and h. of Robert de Dover. The
citation is to Pytchley at 48, stating that by the charter of 1248 Royce
de Dover granted her manor of Luddington to William Marmion, son of
Robert Marmyon the younger, and her da. Lorette, his wife.
-
Robert Forrest
DNB Bio of Sir Anthony Wagner
DNB Online, bio. sketch of the day:
Wagner, Sir Anthony Richard (1908-1995), herald, was born on 6 September 1908 at 90 Queen's Gate, South Kensington, London, the elder child and only son of Orlando Henry Wagner (1867-1956), schoolmaster, and his wife, Monica (1878-1970), daughter of George Edward Bell, vicar of Henley in Arden, Warwickshire. He was educated at his father's private day school for young boys, in Queen's Gate, and after the First World War at Beaudesert Park, Minchinhampton, Gloucestershire. In 1921 he won a king's scholarship to Eton College, which he later saw as the pivotal event in his life, though he always believed his schoolmaster father to have been his best teacher. Eton implanted in him a love of old buildings and a keen sense of tradition and ceremonial; he was school captain in 1925-6. From there he went as a Robin Hollway scholar to Balliol College, Oxford, where he met the medieval historian V. H. Galbraith, who was to become a lifelong friend.
From an early age Wagner was fascinated by family trees, copying out the pedigrees of various royal houses of Europe and learning them by heart. In the library at Eton he discovered many books on heraldry and genealogy. Having graduated with a third-class degree in literae humaniores in 1931 he entered the College of Arms as Portcullis pursuivant, the start of a long and distinguished career as an officer of arms. During the Second World War he worked as a temporary civil servant, first in the War Office (1939-43) and then in the Ministry of Town and Country Planning (1943-6), where he was private secretary to the minister, William Shepherd Morrison (1944-5). Later he helped to set up the historic buildings section (1945-6), writing the guidelines on the listing of buildings; he subsequently served as a member of the advisory committee on buildings of special architectural or historic interest (1947-66). In 1946 he returned full-time to the College of Arms, having been promo!
ted Richmond herald in 1943. In 1961 he became Garter principal king of arms and was promoted KCVO, having been made CVO in 1953. He retired as Garter in 1978, at the traditional age of seventy, though he was never convinced by this rule; on his retirement he was made a KCB and took on the less demanding position of Clarenceux king of arms, which he held for life, despite the onset of blindness in 1984. On 26 February 1953 he married Gillian Mary Millicent (b. 1927), eldest daughter of Major Henry Archibald Roger Graham, an officer in the Grenadier Guards. She was a distinguished public servant and authority on social care, and was appointed OBE in 1977 and DBE in 1994. They had two sons, Roger Henry Melchior and Mark Anthony, and a daughter, Lucy Elizabeth Millicent.
As a junior pursuivant Wagner led the procession at George V's funeral, and as Garter he was responsible (under the duke of Norfolk) for the state funeral of Winston Churchill in 1965 and the investiture of the prince of Wales in 1969. He engaged in a number of long-term projects. From 1940 until his death he was general editor of the Society of Antiquaries' Dictionary of British Arms, the first volume of which appeared in 1992. He also launched a project to list and describe the existing English medieval rolls of arms, contributing the first volume in 1950, and initiated the cataloguing of the college manuscripts, beginning with his own Records and Collections of the College of Arms (1952). He was the founder and first director of the Heralds' Museum (1978-83), which displayed some of the college's heraldic treasures. He also established the College of Arms Trust, thus helping to put the college on a sound financial footing.
Wagner's greatest legacy, however, was his wide-ranging and knowledgeable work on heraldry and genealogy, which did much to ensure their acceptance as valuable tools for the study of history as well as being subjects worthy of serious academic study in their own right. His English Genealogy (1960) and Pedigree and Progress (1975) greatly added to the understanding of English social mobility. Heralds and Heraldry in the Middle Ages (1939) was an early seminal study drawing upon numerous primary sources, and his much larger Heralds of England (1967) became the standard work on the subject. In 1957 he was awarded the Oxford degree of DLitt in recognition of his prolific and scholarly publications. He also built up a fine collection of heraldic manuscripts, including several medieval rolls of arms.
Wagner was a tall man who learned to carry himself well in heraldic tabard. He was donnish and shy, sometimes appearing aloof to acquaintances who did not know him well. He disliked having to make speeches or leading ceremonies. His financial acumen, though serving the college well, was not always appreciated by all, but he generously supported those whom he felt were genuinely interested in genealogy and heraldry. He was conservative in outlook and a strong supporter of the hereditary principle. He was fond of the institutions and organizations to which he was attached, such as the Society of Antiquaries, the Chelsea Society, the Georgian Group, and various London clubs; he was particularly pleased to be made an honorary fellow of Balliol in 1979. He died in London on 5 May 1995 and was survived by his wife, Gillian, and their three children. The oration at his funeral service in St Benet Paul's Wharf, opposite the College of Arms, was given by his old friend Enoch Powell. !
Following a secondary service in the parish church he was buried at Aldeburgh on 12 May 1995. An engraved memorial (one of a series to past Garters) was later installed in St Benet's.
Adrian Ailes
Sources A. Wagner, A herald's world (1988) + H. Chesshyre and A. Ailes, Heralds of today: a biographical list of the officers of the College of Arms, London, 1987-2001 (2001) + WWW, 1991-5 + Wagner pedigree, Coll. Arms, Norfolk MS 42 + E. Lemon, ed., The Balliol College register, 1916-1967, 4th edn (privately printed, Oxford, 1969) + policy of appointing Garter, 1961, PRO, HO 286/47 + P. Howard, 'The king who stands out from the pack', The Times (4 Nov 1981) + The Times (11 May 1995) + The Independent (10 May 1995) + The Independent (16 May 1995) + Daily Telegraph (10 May 1995) + Society of Antiquaries annual report: proceedings (1996) + private information (2004) [Gillian Wagner, wife]
Archives Bodl. Oxf., corresp. and papers + S. Antiquaries, Lond., notes and papers | Helmingham Hall, Stowmarket, corresp. relating to Tollemache armorial + PRO NIre., letters to Lady Brookeborough + W. Sussex RO, corresp. with Oswald Barron, incl. article on heraldry FILM BFI NFTVA
Likenesses H. Riviere, oils, 1925-6, Eton, provost's lodge; repro. in Wagner, A herald's world · Elliott & Fry, photograph, 1952, NPG [see illus.] · photograph, 1961, repro. in The Independent (10 May 1995) · photograph, c.1970, repro. in Wagner, A herald's world · photograph, 1970, repro. in Daily Telegraph · H. D. Marsh, silhouette, 1974, repro. in P. Begent and H. Chesshyre, The most noble order of the Garter: 650 years (1999), 143 · H. A. Freeth, oils, c.1979, Coll. Arms · H. Riviere, group portrait, oils (with officers), Coll. Arms; repro. in Wagner, A herald's world · photograph, repro. in The Times
Wealth at death 760,001: probate, 4 Oct 1995, CGPLA Eng. & Wales
Wagner, Sir Anthony Richard (1908-1995), herald, was born on 6 September 1908 at 90 Queen's Gate, South Kensington, London, the elder child and only son of Orlando Henry Wagner (1867-1956), schoolmaster, and his wife, Monica (1878-1970), daughter of George Edward Bell, vicar of Henley in Arden, Warwickshire. He was educated at his father's private day school for young boys, in Queen's Gate, and after the First World War at Beaudesert Park, Minchinhampton, Gloucestershire. In 1921 he won a king's scholarship to Eton College, which he later saw as the pivotal event in his life, though he always believed his schoolmaster father to have been his best teacher. Eton implanted in him a love of old buildings and a keen sense of tradition and ceremonial; he was school captain in 1925-6. From there he went as a Robin Hollway scholar to Balliol College, Oxford, where he met the medieval historian V. H. Galbraith, who was to become a lifelong friend.
From an early age Wagner was fascinated by family trees, copying out the pedigrees of various royal houses of Europe and learning them by heart. In the library at Eton he discovered many books on heraldry and genealogy. Having graduated with a third-class degree in literae humaniores in 1931 he entered the College of Arms as Portcullis pursuivant, the start of a long and distinguished career as an officer of arms. During the Second World War he worked as a temporary civil servant, first in the War Office (1939-43) and then in the Ministry of Town and Country Planning (1943-6), where he was private secretary to the minister, William Shepherd Morrison (1944-5). Later he helped to set up the historic buildings section (1945-6), writing the guidelines on the listing of buildings; he subsequently served as a member of the advisory committee on buildings of special architectural or historic interest (1947-66). In 1946 he returned full-time to the College of Arms, having been promo!
ted Richmond herald in 1943. In 1961 he became Garter principal king of arms and was promoted KCVO, having been made CVO in 1953. He retired as Garter in 1978, at the traditional age of seventy, though he was never convinced by this rule; on his retirement he was made a KCB and took on the less demanding position of Clarenceux king of arms, which he held for life, despite the onset of blindness in 1984. On 26 February 1953 he married Gillian Mary Millicent (b. 1927), eldest daughter of Major Henry Archibald Roger Graham, an officer in the Grenadier Guards. She was a distinguished public servant and authority on social care, and was appointed OBE in 1977 and DBE in 1994. They had two sons, Roger Henry Melchior and Mark Anthony, and a daughter, Lucy Elizabeth Millicent.
As a junior pursuivant Wagner led the procession at George V's funeral, and as Garter he was responsible (under the duke of Norfolk) for the state funeral of Winston Churchill in 1965 and the investiture of the prince of Wales in 1969. He engaged in a number of long-term projects. From 1940 until his death he was general editor of the Society of Antiquaries' Dictionary of British Arms, the first volume of which appeared in 1992. He also launched a project to list and describe the existing English medieval rolls of arms, contributing the first volume in 1950, and initiated the cataloguing of the college manuscripts, beginning with his own Records and Collections of the College of Arms (1952). He was the founder and first director of the Heralds' Museum (1978-83), which displayed some of the college's heraldic treasures. He also established the College of Arms Trust, thus helping to put the college on a sound financial footing.
Wagner's greatest legacy, however, was his wide-ranging and knowledgeable work on heraldry and genealogy, which did much to ensure their acceptance as valuable tools for the study of history as well as being subjects worthy of serious academic study in their own right. His English Genealogy (1960) and Pedigree and Progress (1975) greatly added to the understanding of English social mobility. Heralds and Heraldry in the Middle Ages (1939) was an early seminal study drawing upon numerous primary sources, and his much larger Heralds of England (1967) became the standard work on the subject. In 1957 he was awarded the Oxford degree of DLitt in recognition of his prolific and scholarly publications. He also built up a fine collection of heraldic manuscripts, including several medieval rolls of arms.
Wagner was a tall man who learned to carry himself well in heraldic tabard. He was donnish and shy, sometimes appearing aloof to acquaintances who did not know him well. He disliked having to make speeches or leading ceremonies. His financial acumen, though serving the college well, was not always appreciated by all, but he generously supported those whom he felt were genuinely interested in genealogy and heraldry. He was conservative in outlook and a strong supporter of the hereditary principle. He was fond of the institutions and organizations to which he was attached, such as the Society of Antiquaries, the Chelsea Society, the Georgian Group, and various London clubs; he was particularly pleased to be made an honorary fellow of Balliol in 1979. He died in London on 5 May 1995 and was survived by his wife, Gillian, and their three children. The oration at his funeral service in St Benet Paul's Wharf, opposite the College of Arms, was given by his old friend Enoch Powell. !
Following a secondary service in the parish church he was buried at Aldeburgh on 12 May 1995. An engraved memorial (one of a series to past Garters) was later installed in St Benet's.
Adrian Ailes
Sources A. Wagner, A herald's world (1988) + H. Chesshyre and A. Ailes, Heralds of today: a biographical list of the officers of the College of Arms, London, 1987-2001 (2001) + WWW, 1991-5 + Wagner pedigree, Coll. Arms, Norfolk MS 42 + E. Lemon, ed., The Balliol College register, 1916-1967, 4th edn (privately printed, Oxford, 1969) + policy of appointing Garter, 1961, PRO, HO 286/47 + P. Howard, 'The king who stands out from the pack', The Times (4 Nov 1981) + The Times (11 May 1995) + The Independent (10 May 1995) + The Independent (16 May 1995) + Daily Telegraph (10 May 1995) + Society of Antiquaries annual report: proceedings (1996) + private information (2004) [Gillian Wagner, wife]
Archives Bodl. Oxf., corresp. and papers + S. Antiquaries, Lond., notes and papers | Helmingham Hall, Stowmarket, corresp. relating to Tollemache armorial + PRO NIre., letters to Lady Brookeborough + W. Sussex RO, corresp. with Oswald Barron, incl. article on heraldry FILM BFI NFTVA
Likenesses H. Riviere, oils, 1925-6, Eton, provost's lodge; repro. in Wagner, A herald's world · Elliott & Fry, photograph, 1952, NPG [see illus.] · photograph, 1961, repro. in The Independent (10 May 1995) · photograph, c.1970, repro. in Wagner, A herald's world · photograph, 1970, repro. in Daily Telegraph · H. D. Marsh, silhouette, 1974, repro. in P. Begent and H. Chesshyre, The most noble order of the Garter: 650 years (1999), 143 · H. A. Freeth, oils, c.1979, Coll. Arms · H. Riviere, group portrait, oils (with officers), Coll. Arms; repro. in Wagner, A herald's world · photograph, repro. in The Times
Wealth at death 760,001: probate, 4 Oct 1995, CGPLA Eng. & Wales
-
Tim Powys-Lybbe
Re: Lorette de Dover, wife of William Marmion
In message of 6 Sep, sysite@swbell.net (Symonds) wrote:
There is also an article on the family of Douvres in The Genealogist NS,
vol XXII of 1929, pp. 105-110. And another by G Andrews Moriarty in the
New England Hist and Gen Review, vol cv of 1951, pp 36-42.
Further CP Vol XIV pp. 46, 60 and 87 add morsels.
And I think you'll find many of the references at:
/http://www.southfarm.plus.com/pl_tree/ps05/ps05_084.htm
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/
I suspect that Lorette (wife of William Marmion (dead 1276) and Isabel
(wife of Maurice de Berkeley (d. 4 Apr 1281) were both daughters of
Richard Fitzroy (illegit. s. of King John), and Rohese (Royce), and
further that Rohese (Royce) was the daughter and heir of Robert de
Dover. According to Chris Phillips' CP Corrections, Isabel was the widow
of Ralph de Plaiz.
There is also an article on the family of Douvres in The Genealogist NS,
vol XXII of 1929, pp. 105-110. And another by G Andrews Moriarty in the
New England Hist and Gen Review, vol cv of 1951, pp 36-42.
Further CP Vol XIV pp. 46, 60 and 87 add morsels.
Subj: Lorette de Dover, wife of William Marmion
Date: 9/5/06 12:59:31 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: sysite@swbell.net (Symonds)
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
The CP, Vol 8 at 518, includes the following: He [William Marmion] m.,
... 1248 Lorette, da. of Royce, da. and h. of Robert de Dover. The
citation is to Pytchley at 48, stating that by the charter of 1248 Royce
de Dover granted her manor of Luddington to William Marmion, son of
Robert Marmyon the younger, and her da. Lorette, his wife.
And I think you'll find many of the references at:
/http://www.southfarm.plus.com/pl_tree/ps05/ps05_084.htm
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/
-
Symonds
Re: Lorette de Dover, wife of William Marmion
Tim, these are very much appreciated. Thank you for some serious help
with these families.
Marilyn
Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote:
with these families.
Marilyn
Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote:
In message of 6 Sep, sysite@swbell.net (Symonds) wrote:
I suspect that Lorette (wife of William Marmion (dead 1276) and Isabel
(wife of Maurice de Berkeley (d. 4 Apr 1281) were both daughters of
Richard Fitzroy (illegit. s. of King John), and Rohese (Royce), and
further that Rohese (Royce) was the daughter and heir of Robert de
Dover. According to Chris Phillips' CP Corrections, Isabel was the widow
of Ralph de Plaiz.
There is also an article on the family of Douvres in The Genealogist NS,
vol XXII of 1929, pp. 105-110. And another by G Andrews Moriarty in the
New England Hist and Gen Review, vol cv of 1951, pp 36-42.
Further CP Vol XIV pp. 46, 60 and 87 add morsels.
Subj: Lorette de Dover, wife of William Marmion
Date: 9/5/06 12:59:31 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: sysite@swbell.net (Symonds)
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
The CP, Vol 8 at 518, includes the following: He [William Marmion] m.,
... 1248 Lorette, da. of Royce, da. and h. of Robert de Dover. The
citation is to Pytchley at 48, stating that by the charter of 1248 Royce
de Dover granted her manor of Luddington to William Marmion, son of
Robert Marmyon the younger, and her da. Lorette, his wife.
And I think you'll find many of the references at:
/http://www.southfarm.plus.com/pl_tree/ps05/ps05_084.htm
-
Gjest
Re: Lorette de Dover, wife of William Marmion
Marilyn Symonds, has sent me a jpg scan of a page from CP vol 8 which, after
reviewing Leo's great website here
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.ph ... 9&tree=LEO
allowed me to post an update to him, that links the Skipwith American
immigrant family to this line as well. Which per that, adds this family to my
research database on Richard Cecil.
Will Johnson
reviewing Leo's great website here
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.ph ... 9&tree=LEO
allowed me to post an update to him, that links the Skipwith American
immigrant family to this line as well. Which per that, adds this family to my
research database on Richard Cecil.
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: Anne Burgoyne, wife of Sir Richard St George
WJhon...@aol.com schrieb:
No, unfortunately.
It states that Katherine [presumably named for her father's mother,
Katherine Maningham] and ?Ide [named for her putative
great-grandmother, the wife of Sir John Maningham] and Ann each had
children of their own, and names Katherine's daughter Agnes H---
(looked like HYRLY in the poor microfilm copy I was deciphering under
trying circumstances, sp possibly Hurley is intended).
Richard Huntington (who has a squiggle before his name that I interpret
as Sir, but could possibly be Mr) is named as her son-in-law, which I
would think does NOT mean step-son in this case, as Dame Anne is only
known to have had one husband. In a few quick searches since, I
haven't identified this Richard Huntington - perhaps he is a clue to
the marriage of at least one daughter.
So far as I know, the daughters are not mentioned in any other
published source.
Michael
In a message dated 9/6/06 7:14:18 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
mjcar@btinternet.com writes:
Thomas St George, her apparently
unmarried daughter Elizabeth, her married daughters Katherine, Anne and
Ide (if I am reading the script properly; assuming this is the case,
this could be further evidence that the family was related to the
Cokayns of Cokayn Hatley).
Does the will give the surnames of the married daughters ?
Will
No, unfortunately.
It states that Katherine [presumably named for her father's mother,
Katherine Maningham] and ?Ide [named for her putative
great-grandmother, the wife of Sir John Maningham] and Ann each had
children of their own, and names Katherine's daughter Agnes H---
(looked like HYRLY in the poor microfilm copy I was deciphering under
trying circumstances, sp possibly Hurley is intended).
Richard Huntington (who has a squiggle before his name that I interpret
as Sir, but could possibly be Mr) is named as her son-in-law, which I
would think does NOT mean step-son in this case, as Dame Anne is only
known to have had one husband. In a few quick searches since, I
haven't identified this Richard Huntington - perhaps he is a clue to
the marriage of at least one daughter.
So far as I know, the daughters are not mentioned in any other
published source.
Michael
-
Gjest
Re: gen-medieval gateway
If whoever manages the gateway, could remember to now remove the "-L" as
rootsweb has changed its lists.
Old name: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
New Name: GEN-MEDIEVAL@rootsweb.com
Will Johnson
rootsweb has changed its lists.
Old name: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
New Name: GEN-MEDIEVAL@rootsweb.com
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: Some additional early Docwra wills from Cambridgeshire
WJhonson@aol.com schrieb:
Most certainly. A bad time to be a Docwra in Little Abington, it
seems.
MA-R
mjcar@btinternet.com writes:
(1) Consistory Court of Ely, Gilbert Docwra of Little Abington proved
1522
Dated 31 August 1522; I Gilbert Docwray in whole mind; body to be
buried in the chancel of the church at Abyngton the less; various
religious bequests, including "3s 3d for 10masses of the five wounds of
our Lord for me and Alys my kinswoman"; lease of the farm of the
parsonage at Little Abyngton to Sir William Wynter, Robert Emylton and
John Byldock of Abyngton the greater; woollen cloth to Annes Thriston
of Cambridge, and to John Dawson, and to William Docwray's children.
3s 3d to Margaret Charleton, and the same to a "woman that keepeth
William Dockwray my brother"; 20 to brother William Docwray; to "Johan
Docwray and to either of my brother's children", a calf; wool to Annes
Radforth.
(2) Consistory Court of Ely, William Docwra of Little Abington, proved
12.12.1522
Dated 25 August 1522: I William Dockery of Litell Abyngton, being of
whole mind and perfect memory make this my last will and testament;
body to be buried in the churchyard of Little Abington; religious
bequests; "unto my children, that is to say Gilbert Dockwray, Alin,
William, Richard and Alys Dockery, my house" at Great Abington "which I
lately bought"; all goods "to my four (sic) children"; brother Gilbert
to be supervisor.
Is it your opinion that the above two wills are the wills of two brothers?
That's my first impression. The wills were created about a week apart, and
each names the other apparently.
Most certainly. A bad time to be a Docwra in Little Abington, it
seems.
MA-R
-
Gjest
Re: Lorette de Dover, wife of William Marmion
In addition, I have just discovered that these families connect to the
Wentworths of Wentworth-Woodhouse
The descent goes as
1) William Marmion married Lorette (Filia RichardFitzRoy)
2) John, 1st Lord Marmion married Isabel
3) John, 2nd Lord Marion married Maud de Furnival
4) Joan Marmion married John Bernake, Knt
5) Maud Bernake married Ralph, 1st Lord Cromwell
6) Elizabeth Cromwell married John de Clifton, 1st Lord Buckingham
7) Catherine Clifton married Edmund FitzWilliam of Wadworth
Richard FitzWilliam married Elizabeth Clarell
9) Isabel FitzWilliam married William Wentworth of Wentworth
10) Sir Thomas Wentworth married Beatrice Woodruffe
11) Thomas Wentworth married Grace Gascoigne
Previously at this point, some people show a daughter Mary Wentworth marrying
to Thomas Brewster and coming to American on the Mayflower. This last
connection has been challenged and should not be presented as fact without better
documentation. I have updated my database to reflect this.
Will Johnson
Wentworths of Wentworth-Woodhouse
The descent goes as
1) William Marmion married Lorette (Filia RichardFitzRoy)
2) John, 1st Lord Marmion married Isabel
3) John, 2nd Lord Marion married Maud de Furnival
4) Joan Marmion married John Bernake, Knt
5) Maud Bernake married Ralph, 1st Lord Cromwell
6) Elizabeth Cromwell married John de Clifton, 1st Lord Buckingham
7) Catherine Clifton married Edmund FitzWilliam of Wadworth
9) Isabel FitzWilliam married William Wentworth of Wentworth
10) Sir Thomas Wentworth married Beatrice Woodruffe
11) Thomas Wentworth married Grace Gascoigne
Previously at this point, some people show a daughter Mary Wentworth marrying
to Thomas Brewster and coming to American on the Mayflower. This last
connection has been challenged and should not be presented as fact without better
documentation. I have updated my database to reflect this.
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: Anne Burgoyne, wife of Sir Richard St George
In a message dated 9/6/06 7:14:18 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
mjcar@btinternet.com writes:
<< Thomas St George, her apparently
unmarried daughter Elizabeth, her married daughters Katherine, Anne and
Ide (if I am reading the script properly; assuming this is the case,
this could be further evidence that the family was related to the
Cokayns of Cokayn Hatley). >>
Does the will give the surnames of the married daughters ?
Will
mjcar@btinternet.com writes:
<< Thomas St George, her apparently
unmarried daughter Elizabeth, her married daughters Katherine, Anne and
Ide (if I am reading the script properly; assuming this is the case,
this could be further evidence that the family was related to the
Cokayns of Cokayn Hatley). >>
Does the will give the surnames of the married daughters ?
Will
-
Gjest
Re: Some additional early Docwra wills from Cambridgeshire
In a message dated 9/6/06 7:17:15 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
mjcar@btinternet.com writes:
<< (1) Consistory Court of Ely, Gilbert Docwra of Little Abington proved
1522
Dated 31 August 1522; I Gilbert Docwray in whole mind; body to be
buried in the chancel of the church at Abyngton the less; various
religious bequests, including "3s 3d for 10masses of the five wounds of
our Lord for me and Alys my kinswoman"; lease of the farm of the
parsonage at Little Abyngton to Sir William Wynter, Robert Emylton and
John Byldock of Abyngton the greater; woollen cloth to Annes Thriston
of Cambridge, and to John Dawson, and to William Docwray's children.
3s 3d to Margaret Charleton, and the same to a "woman that keepeth
William Dockwray my brother"; 20 to brother William Docwray; to "Johan
Docwray and to either of my brother's children", a calf; wool to Annes
Radforth.
VC8:83
************
(2) Consistory Court of Ely, William Docwra of Little Abington, proved
12.12.1522
Dated 25 August 1522: I William Dockery of Litell Abyngton, being of
whole mind and perfect memory make this my last will and testament;
body to be buried in the churchyard of Little Abington; religious
bequests; "unto my children, that is to say Gilbert Dockwray, Alin,
William, Richard and Alys Dockery, my house" at Great Abington "which I
lately bought"; all goods "to my four (sic) children"; brother Gilbert
to be supervisor.
VC8:91 >>
Is it your opinion that the above two wills are the wills of two brothers?
That's my first impression. The wills were created about a week apart, and
each names the other apparently.
Will
mjcar@btinternet.com writes:
<< (1) Consistory Court of Ely, Gilbert Docwra of Little Abington proved
1522
Dated 31 August 1522; I Gilbert Docwray in whole mind; body to be
buried in the chancel of the church at Abyngton the less; various
religious bequests, including "3s 3d for 10masses of the five wounds of
our Lord for me and Alys my kinswoman"; lease of the farm of the
parsonage at Little Abyngton to Sir William Wynter, Robert Emylton and
John Byldock of Abyngton the greater; woollen cloth to Annes Thriston
of Cambridge, and to John Dawson, and to William Docwray's children.
3s 3d to Margaret Charleton, and the same to a "woman that keepeth
William Dockwray my brother"; 20 to brother William Docwray; to "Johan
Docwray and to either of my brother's children", a calf; wool to Annes
Radforth.
VC8:83
************
(2) Consistory Court of Ely, William Docwra of Little Abington, proved
12.12.1522
Dated 25 August 1522: I William Dockery of Litell Abyngton, being of
whole mind and perfect memory make this my last will and testament;
body to be buried in the churchyard of Little Abington; religious
bequests; "unto my children, that is to say Gilbert Dockwray, Alin,
William, Richard and Alys Dockery, my house" at Great Abington "which I
lately bought"; all goods "to my four (sic) children"; brother Gilbert
to be supervisor.
VC8:91 >>
Is it your opinion that the above two wills are the wills of two brothers?
That's my first impression. The wills were created about a week apart, and
each names the other apparently.
Will
-
Alex Maxwell Findlater
Re: The Comyns and the House of Galloway: a prior Connection
I was really trying to point out that Waldeve, lord of Tynedale was not
the same person as Waldeve earl of Northumberland. Waldeve was quite a
common name in those days.
the same person as Waldeve earl of Northumberland. Waldeve was quite a
common name in those days.
-
Gjest
Re: The Comyns and the House of Galloway: a prior Connection
Dear Alex,
Who was Waldeve / Waltheof, lord of Tynedale ? I know
Uchtred of Tynedale`s father was named Waldeve /Waltheof and that He was known as
lord of Tynedale, but David I , King of Scots took possession of Tynedale in
1135 and was granted right to it by Empress Maud in 1139. In 1147 Henry Fitz
empress (later Henry II, King of England) acknowledged his great uncle`s right to
the north of England, but changed his tune in the 1160s. So David had
possession of Tynedale and may well have granted a large part of it to Uchtred.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
Who was Waldeve / Waltheof, lord of Tynedale ? I know
Uchtred of Tynedale`s father was named Waldeve /Waltheof and that He was known as
lord of Tynedale, but David I , King of Scots took possession of Tynedale in
1135 and was granted right to it by Empress Maud in 1139. In 1147 Henry Fitz
empress (later Henry II, King of England) acknowledged his great uncle`s right to
the north of England, but changed his tune in the 1160s. So David had
possession of Tynedale and may well have granted a large part of it to Uchtred.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
-
Gjest
Re: Some more notes on Docwra connections
While browsing the A2A I found several documents for Docwra of Putteridge.
At first it was a bit confusing but I think that
Thomas Docwra, Esq of Putteridge, Offley married twice
By his first wife Helen married before 1594 he had a daughter Jane who was
born by 27 Apr 1594
This Helen must have died by 1599 as he is then married to a Jane who is also
his will in his will and lives at least two more years after his death in
1621.
The children by this marriage appear to be
John, Periam, Henry, Elizabeth and Ann at least
This Elizabeth Docwra by marriage settlement dated 14 Feb 1623 marries Thomas
Estofte, Esq son and heir of John Estofte
Henry "youngest son" but born by 1600, lives to at least 18 Feb 1636/7 and
has a wife Ann
Going fishing in search of a place to plug this family it appears that the
second wife Jane must be Jane Periam (Peryam) b 1572 dau of Sir William Peryam,
Judge by his second wife Anne Parker.
William Peryam 1534-1604 and Anne Parker had four daughters
1) Mary the eldest married Sir William Pole 1561-1635 of Colcombe
2) Elizabeth married Sir Robert Basset of Heanton-Punchardon
3) Jane married first Thomas Poyntz and second Thomas Docwra of Putteridge
4) Anne married William Williams of Herringstone
William Peryam married as his third wife "Elizabeth Bacon dau of Nicholas
Lord Keeper" per his DNB biography
Furthermore "his widow in 1620 endowed a fellowship at Balliol College"
As far as I know now, "Betty" Bacon had no children, either by William Peryam
or her first husband Sir Henry Neville Knt 1520-93
Comments appreciated.
Will Johnson
At first it was a bit confusing but I think that
Thomas Docwra, Esq of Putteridge, Offley married twice
By his first wife Helen married before 1594 he had a daughter Jane who was
born by 27 Apr 1594
This Helen must have died by 1599 as he is then married to a Jane who is also
his will in his will and lives at least two more years after his death in
1621.
The children by this marriage appear to be
John, Periam, Henry, Elizabeth and Ann at least
This Elizabeth Docwra by marriage settlement dated 14 Feb 1623 marries Thomas
Estofte, Esq son and heir of John Estofte
Henry "youngest son" but born by 1600, lives to at least 18 Feb 1636/7 and
has a wife Ann
Going fishing in search of a place to plug this family it appears that the
second wife Jane must be Jane Periam (Peryam) b 1572 dau of Sir William Peryam,
Judge by his second wife Anne Parker.
William Peryam 1534-1604 and Anne Parker had four daughters
1) Mary the eldest married Sir William Pole 1561-1635 of Colcombe
2) Elizabeth married Sir Robert Basset of Heanton-Punchardon
3) Jane married first Thomas Poyntz and second Thomas Docwra of Putteridge
4) Anne married William Williams of Herringstone
William Peryam married as his third wife "Elizabeth Bacon dau of Nicholas
Lord Keeper" per his DNB biography
Furthermore "his widow in 1620 endowed a fellowship at Balliol College"
As far as I know now, "Betty" Bacon had no children, either by William Peryam
or her first husband Sir Henry Neville Knt 1520-93
Comments appreciated.
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: Some more notes on Docwra connections
WJhonson@aol.com schrieb:
Will
I can't say much, other than that your reconstruction is pretty much
spot on. I will send you a copy of the stemma I have drawn up, which
has a few additional details.
Michael
While browsing the A2A I found several documents for Docwra of Putteridge.
At first it was a bit confusing but I think that
Thomas Docwra, Esq of Putteridge, Offley married twice
By his first wife Helen married before 1594 he had a daughter Jane who was
born by 27 Apr 1594
This Helen must have died by 1599 as he is then married to a Jane who is also
his will in his will and lives at least two more years after his death in
1621.
The children by this marriage appear to be
John, Periam, Henry, Elizabeth and Ann at least
This Elizabeth Docwra by marriage settlement dated 14 Feb 1623 marries Thomas
Estofte, Esq son and heir of John Estofte
Henry "youngest son" but born by 1600, lives to at least 18 Feb 1636/7 and
has a wife Ann
Going fishing in search of a place to plug this family it appears that the
second wife Jane must be Jane Periam (Peryam) b 1572 dau of Sir William Peryam,
Judge by his second wife Anne Parker.
William Peryam 1534-1604 and Anne Parker had four daughters
1) Mary the eldest married Sir William Pole 1561-1635 of Colcombe
2) Elizabeth married Sir Robert Basset of Heanton-Punchardon
3) Jane married first Thomas Poyntz and second Thomas Docwra of Putteridge
4) Anne married William Williams of Herringstone
William Peryam married as his third wife "Elizabeth Bacon dau of Nicholas
Lord Keeper" per his DNB biography
Furthermore "his widow in 1620 endowed a fellowship at Balliol College"
As far as I know now, "Betty" Bacon had no children, either by William Peryam
or her first husband Sir Henry Neville Knt 1520-93
Comments appreciated.
Will
I can't say much, other than that your reconstruction is pretty much
spot on. I will send you a copy of the stemma I have drawn up, which
has a few additional details.
Michael
-
Tim Powys-Lybbe
Re: Some more notes on Docwra connections
In message of 7 Sep, WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
If you can find John Prince's "Worthies of Devon", pub Rees & Curtis in
1810, it has a three page account of W. Peryam on pp. 626-8.
Jane Peryam died on 15 Mar 1645-6 from John Maclean's "The Family of
Poyntz" and just happens to be one of my 45 known 10th gt-grandmothers.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/
While browsing the A2A I found several documents for Docwra of
Putteridge. At first it was a bit confusing but I think that
Thomas Docwra, Esq of Putteridge, Offley married twice
By his first wife Helen married before 1594 he had a daughter Jane who
was born by 27 Apr 1594
This Helen must have died by 1599 as he is then married to a Jane who
is also his will in his will and lives at least two more years after
his death in 1621.
The children by this marriage appear to be
John, Periam, Henry, Elizabeth and Ann at least
This Elizabeth Docwra by marriage settlement dated 14 Feb 1623 marries
Thomas Estofte, Esq son and heir of John Estofte
Henry "youngest son" but born by 1600, lives to at least 18 Feb 1636/7 and
has a wife Ann
Going fishing in search of a place to plug this family it appears that the
second wife Jane must be Jane Periam (Peryam) b 1572 dau of Sir
William Peryam, Judge by his second wife Anne Parker.
William Peryam 1534-1604 and Anne Parker had four daughters
1) Mary the eldest married Sir William Pole 1561-1635 of Colcombe
2) Elizabeth married Sir Robert Basset of Heanton-Punchardon
3) Jane married first Thomas Poyntz and second Thomas Docwra of Putteridge
4) Anne married William Williams of Herringstone
William Peryam married as his third wife "Elizabeth Bacon dau of
Nicholas Lord Keeper" per his DNB biography
Furthermore "his widow in 1620 endowed a fellowship at Balliol College"
As far as I know now, "Betty" Bacon had no children, either by William
Peryam or her first husband Sir Henry Neville Knt 1520-93
If you can find John Prince's "Worthies of Devon", pub Rees & Curtis in
1810, it has a three page account of W. Peryam on pp. 626-8.
Jane Peryam died on 15 Mar 1645-6 from John Maclean's "The Family of
Poyntz" and just happens to be one of my 45 known 10th gt-grandmothers.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/
-
Gjest
Re: CP Correction: Helisant 'du Perche', wife of Matthew de
Thursday, 7 September, 2006
Hello All,
Following is the promised 9 generation pedigree, tracing
the descent of Alianore de Lovaine and her grandchildren
from Henry II of England and Eleanor of Aquitaine.
Cheers,
John *
1 Henry II 'Curtmantle' of England
----------------------------------------
Birth: 5 Mar 1132, Le Mans, Maine[1]
Death: 6 Jul 1189, Chinon, Touraine[1]
Burial: Fontevraud-L'Abbaye, Anjou
Occ: King of England 1154-1189
Father: Geoffrey 'Plantagenet' of Anjou (1113-1151)
Mother: Matilda of England (1102-1167)
Spouse: Eleanor of Aquitaine
Birth: abt 1122, Chateau de Belin-Beliet, Gironde[3]
Death: 31 Mar 1204, Fontevrault, Anjou[4]
Father: Guillaume X of Aquitaine (1099-1137)
Mother: Anor of Chatellerault (1103->1130)
Marr: 18 May 1152, Bordeaux[5]
Children: William (1153-<1156)
Henry (1155-1183), 'the Young King'
Matilda (<1156-1189)
Richard 'Coeur-de Lion' (1157-1199), King of England
Geoffrey (1158-1186), Duke of Brittany
Eleanor (1162-1214), m. Alfonso VIII of Castile
Joan (1165-1199), m. William of Sicily
John 'Lackland' (1167-1216), King of England
1.1 Matilda of England
----------------------------------------
Birth: bef Jul 1156, London[6],[7]
Death: 28 Jun 1189, Brunswick[7]
born London, June 1156 or shortly before (Eyton p. 18[6])
2nd wife of Henry the Lion, Duke of Saxony (later
of Bavaria)
cf. ES I Tafel 18[7]
Spouse: Henry 'the Lion' of Bavaria
Birth: ca 1132[7]
Death: 6 Aug 1195[7]
Father: Henry, Duke of Bavaria (1108-1139)
Mother: Gertrude of Supplinburg
Marr: 1 Feb 1168[7]
Children: Matilda (1171-<1213)
Henry, Count Palatine of the Rhine (ca1174-1227)
Lothar (ca1175-1190)
Otto IV, King of Germany (ca1177-1218)
NN (1182-)
William, Duke of Brunswick (1184-1213)
1.1.1 Matilda of Bavaria
----------------------------------------
Birth: 1171[8]
Death: bef May 1213[9]
Occ: Countess of Perche
Countess of Perche
baptized as Richenza:
' Matilda was the eldest child of the marriage between Henry the
Lion, duke of Bavaria and Saxony and his second wife, Matilda,
eldest daughter of King Henry II of England, duke of Normandy
and count of Anjou. Like her mother, she might have been given
her paternal grandmother's name, but Henry the Lion already
had a daughter by his first marriage and his mother's name,
Gertrude, was borne by the daughter of that marriage. For his
new daughter Duke Henry looked further back in his family tree,
choosing Richenza, and she used this name until the family
came in exile to the Anglo-Norman realm in the 1180s19. From
then on Duke Henry's daughter used her mother's name, Matilda,
which was also that of her maternal great grandmother, the
Empress Matilda.'[8]
foundress of the priory of les Clairets (near Nogent-le-Rotrou),
1204
cf. Shadis, p. 190[9]
Thompson, pp. 69-88[8]
Spouse: Geoffrey III, Count of Perche
Death: Apr 1202[8],[10]
Father: Rotrou III, Count of Perche (-1191)
Mother: Maud of Blois
Marr: Jul 1189[8],[9]
Children: Geoffrey (dvp -<1202)
Thomas (ca1193-1217)
1.1.1.1a Thomas of Perche*
----------------------------------------
Birth: ca 1193[8]
Death: 20 May 1217, Battle of Lincoln[8]
Occ: Count of Perche
Count of Perche 1202-1217
confirmed the gifts of his mother 'to the nuns of le Clairets,
of the Cistercian order.'
supporter of Prince Louis of France, he fought for the Prince
in England;
slain in the Battle of Lincoln.
Thomas, count of Perche, was married to Helisende of Rethel
when he was slain at Lincoln in 1217. She was alive in
1224, by which date she had consented to 2 charters
of William, count of Perche (and bishop of Chalons).
Her seal has also been identified on a charter dated 1231,
found in the archives of l'Yonne.
cf. Shadis, p. 190[9]
Thompson, p. 70[8]
Genealogics I00330955[11] [cites ES III/4 689]
Debut de l'Histoirce de Mauves, cites charters granting
property to the abbey of la Trappe. URL:
http://mauves-huisne.com/components.php ... revolution
Vicomte de Souance et l'Abbe Ch. Metais, eds.,
Saint-Denis de Nogent-le-Rotrou, 1031-1789: Histoire
et Cartulaire (Vannes: Imprimerie et Librairie
LaFoyle, 1899), p. lxix. This source indicates that
Thomas had a first wife, Marguerite: she must have
died quite young, given that Thomas was aged about
24 (and married to Helisende) at the time he was
slain at Lincoln.
Spouse: Margaret [evidently, 1st wife]
1.1.1.1b Thomas of Perche* (See above)
----------------------------------------
Spouse: Helisende de Rethel [2nd wife]
Father: Hugh II, Count of Rethel (-ca1227)
Mother: Felicite de Broyes
Children: Thomas (<1215-)
1.1.1.1b.1 Thomas du Perche
----------------------------------------
Birth: bef 20 Mar 1215[11]
Bapt: 20 Mar 1215, Nogent-le-Rotrou[11]
cf. Genealogics I00330957[11] [cites ES III/4 689]
Thomas, the son, has been identified (or assumed) to
be illegitimate [11], probably due to the succession of William
(his great-uncle) as Count in 1217. Thomas was residing
in England by 1244, as he is found in London on 6 March
1243/4, marrying one Catherine Lesmayes. This
marriage is shown as producing a son Joseph (or Joseph
Thomas). Given the proximity of Thomas' birth to the
death of his father, while still married to Helisende of
Rethel, it appears that he was the legitimate son of
Thomas and Helisende, and the father of Henry III's
kinswoman Helisant (or Helisende).
Spouse: Catherine Lesmaye
Marr: 6 Mar 1243[11]
Children: Helisant
Joseph [Joseph Thomas ?]
1.1.1.1b.1.1 Helisant 'de Perche'[12]
----------------------------------------
'kinswoman of Henry III', as identified in account of her
husband Matthew de Lovaine:
' He m., 1stly, on or before 31 May 1268, Helisant,
a kinswoman of Henry III, who gave 300 marks as her
marriage portion. ' [CP VIII:180, and note (f).[13]]
re: her husband:
of Little Easton, Essex and Bildeston, Suffolk
steward of Eye[12]
IPM of Matthew de Lovayn, at Malton, co. Yorks. 9 June 1302
(writ dated Westminster 24 May 1302) [Yorks. Inqs. IV:18-19[14]]
Spouse: Matthew de Lovaine
Birth: bef 26 Nov 1237[13]
Death: bef 24 May 1302[14],[15]
Father: Matthew de Lovaine (-<1258)
Mother: Muriel (->1274)
Marr: bef 1 Jun 1268[13]
Children: Alianore (->1326)
1.1.1.1b.1.1.1a Alianore de Lovaine*
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 3 May 1326[13]
Burial: Dunmow priory
given the manors of Stebbing and Woodham to hold in tenancy until
her dower was assigned, 20 January 1287/88.[13]
her dower included the manor of Frating, Essex [identified in
Inq.p.m. 28 Nov 1308] - CP V:342n[13]
she was abducted by Sir William Douglas before 28 January 1288/89
(married after fine of £100 assessed 18 February 1290/91)[13]
Sir William Douglas was mprisoned (for abducting Alianore de
Lovaine) at Leeds Castle - he was released 15 May 1290, and
his manor of Fawdon restored to him[13]
he was arrested for failure to give hostages in connection with
a pardon in July 1297, and committed to the Tower of London[13]:
order dated Oct. 12, 1297, Westminster:
' To Ralph de Sandwyco, constable of the Tower of London. Order
to receive William de Douglas, Thomas de Morham and John de
Fortore of Scotland, whom John de Warenna, earl of Surrey, will
deliver to him, and to cause them to be kept safely in the Tower
until otherwise ordered. ' [CCR (Edw. I, 1296-1302) IV:67[16]]
licence granted by King Edward I, dated at Kildrummy, Scotland,
9 Oct 1303:
' Licence for Eleanor, late the wife of William de Ferar[iis],
tenant in chief, to marry John de Wysham, king's yeoman, if she
so desires. ' [CPR 31 Edw. I, mem. 11, p. 161[17]]
by a fine dated 1313, William de Bagot (third husband) and
Alianore his wife conveyed tenements in co. Stafford to
themselves and heirs of their bodies, with remainder to
Archibald, son of Alianore (CP V:342n)[13]
m. lstly Sir William de Ferrers (his second wife)
2ndly Sir William Douglas ( his second wife)
3rdly Sir William Bagot
Spouse: Sir William de Ferrers, of Groby, co. Leics. [1st husband]
Birth: abt 1240[13]
Death: bef 20 Dec 1287[13]
Father: William de Ferrers, Earl of Derby (-<1254)
Mother: Margaret de Quincy (-<1280)
1.1.1.1b.1.1.1b Alianore de Lovaine* (See above)
----------------------------------------
Spouse: Sir William de Douglas [2nd husband]
Death: bef 24 Jan 1298, Tower of London[13]
Birth: aft 24 Apr 1235[18]
Father: Sir William de Douglas (->1269)
Mother: Constance de Bataille
Marr: aft 18 Feb 1290[13]
Children: Archibald 'the Tyneman' (>1290-1333)
Hugh (>1294-)
1.1.1.1b.1.1.1b.1 Archibald 'the Tyneman' de Douglas
----------------------------------------
Death: 19 Jul 1333, Battle of Halidon Hill
Birth: aft 18 Feb 1290[13]
Occ: lord of Liddesdale
lord of Liddesdale
* parentage proven by fine dated 1313, William de Bagot
(his stepfather) and Alianore his wife conveyed tenements
in co. Stafford to themselves and heirs of their bodies,
with remainder to Archibald, son of Alianore. (CP V:342n)[13]
his English lands were forfeited:
grant dated at Gloucester, 20 June 1330:
' Grant, for life, at the request of Roger de Mortuo Mari,
earl of March, to Richard de Burgh of a messuage, a carucate
of land, 10 acres of wood, and 4s. in rent in Wylbrighton,
co. Stafford, which escheated to the late king by the
forfeiture of Archibald Duglas. By p.s. '
[ CPR 4 Edw III (1327-1330), mem. 13, p. 535[19]]
Spouse: Beatrix de Lindsay
Death: bef 6 Mar 1355[20],[21]
Father: Sir Alexander de Lindsay (>1258-)
Children: William (-1384)
Eleanora, m. 1) Alexander Bruce, E of Carrick
2) James Sandilands
3) Sir Patrick Hepburn
[possibly others]
1.1.1.1b.1.1.1b.1.1a William Douglas*
----------------------------------------
Death: May 1384[13]
Occ: Earl of Douglas
1st Earl of Douglas
fought in the French army at Poitiers, 19 Sept 1356[5]
[commander of the 1st division, with the Dauphin Charles]
injured in the cavalry charge on the English left, together
with Arnoul d'Audrehem [Sumption, pp. 238-9[22]]
" Sir William de Douglas, Earl of Mar, our cousin "
[ ' domino Willielmo de Douglas et de Marr consanguineo
nostro ' ], witness [together with John Stewart, Earl
of Carrick and his brother Robert Stewart of Fife and
Menteith, Sir James Lindsay, Sir Kentigern de Lindsay
and Sir Alexander de Lindsay ] to a charter of King
Robert II dated at Edinburgh, 10 Dec 1380 [Chart. Ayr
pp. xxxv-xxxvi[23]]
Spouse: Margaret of Mar
Death: aft 5 Dec 1389[13]
Father: Donald, Earl of Mar (-1332)
Mother: Isabel
Marr: bef 13 Nov 1357[13]
Children: James Douglas, Earl of Douglas(-1388)
Isabel, m. 1) Malcolm Drummond,
m. 2) Alexander Stewart, earl of Mar
1.1.1.1b.1.1.1b.1.1b William Douglas* (See above)
----------------------------------------
Associated with: Margaret Stewart, Countess of Angus
Father: Thomas Stewart, Earl of Angus (-1361)
Mother: Margaret Sinclair
Children: George Douglas, 1st Earl of Angus (-ca1402)
1.1.1.1b.1.1.1c Alianore de Lovaine* (See above)
----------------------------------------
Spouse: Sir William Bagot [3rd husband]
Marr: aft 8 Apr 1305[17]
1. W. L. Warren, "Henry II," University of California Press, 1973,
[English Monarchs Series].
2. Rene de la Croix, duc de Castries, "The Lives of the Kings and
Queens of France," New York: Alfred A. Knopf, Inc., 1979.
3. Christian Settipani, "Trente-Deux Quartiers Ahnenreihe for Eleanor
of Aquitaine," 6 Sept 1998, GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com,
rootsweb.com (rsponse to D.Spencer Hines, same subject, 2
Sept 1998.
4. David Faris, "Plantagenet Ancestry of Seventeenth-Century
Colonists," Boston: New England Historic Genealogical Society,
1999, (2nd edition, 1999).
5. David Faris, "Plantagenet Ancestry of 17th Century Colonists,"
Baltimore: the Genealogical Pub. Company, 1st ed.
6. Robert William Eyton, "Court, Household, and Itinerary of King
Henry II," London: Taylor, 1878.
7. Detlev Schewennicke, "Europäische Stammtafeln: Neue Folge,"
[ " European Family Trees: Family Trees for the History of
European States, New Series " ], Frankfurt am Main: Vittorio
Klostermann, 1998 [4th series], Band I.1 [Tafel 3 - Die
Arnulfinger -751-771 Konige der Franken ], First series by
Wilhelm Karl, Prinz zu Isenburg, continued second series by
Frank, Baron Freytag von Loringhoven.
8. Kathleen Thompson, "Matilda, countess of the Perche
(1171-1210): the expression of authority in name, style and
seal," Tabularia e Etudes, no. 3, 2003, pp. 69-88, URL
http://www.unicaen.fr/mrsh/crahm/revue/ ... mpson.html
email Kathleen.Thompson@shu.ac.uk,
Honorary Research Fellow, University of Sheffield.
9. Miriam Shadis and Constance Hoffman Berman, "A Taste of
the Feast: Reconsidering Eleanor of Aquitaine's Female
Descendants," Bonnie Wheeler and John Carmi Parsons, eds.,
"Eleanor of Aquitaine: Lord and Lady," New York: Palgrave
Macmillan, 2002, Chapter 8 (pp. 177-211).
10. Adrian Channing, "Re: ROYAL BASTARDS/HENRY I," Sept 10, 1998,
GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com, cites Bradenstoke Cartulary, 655
[1144 x 1191] and 235 [1191 x 1202].
11. "Genealogics," website by Leo van de Pas,
http://www.genealogics.com,
cites Europäische Stammtafeln, J.A. Stargardt Verlag Marburg.,
Detlev Schwennicke, Editor, [ES], and other sources.
13. G. E. Cokayne, "The Complete Peerage," 1910 - [microprint,
1982 (Alan Sutton) ], The Complete Peerage of England Scotland
Ireland Great Britain and the United Kingdom.
14. William Brown, B.A., ed., "Yorkshire Inquisitions," The
Yorkshire Archaeological Society, Record Series), various
dates:, Vol. I (Record series vol. XII) - 1892, Vol.
II(Record series vol. XXIII) - 1898, Vol. III (Record series
vol. XXXI) - 1902, Vol. IV (Record series vol. XXXVII) - 1906.
15. I. J. Sanders, "English Baronies: A Study of Their Origin and
Descent, 1086-1327," Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1960.
16. "Calendar of the Close Rolls," Edw I, vol. IV (1296-1302),
London: Printed for His Majesty's Stationery Office by Mackie
& Co., LD., 1906.
17. "Calendar of the Patent Rolls," preserved in the Public Record
Office, Edward I. A.D. 1301-1307, London: for the Public
Record Office, 1898, (reprinted 1971, Kraus-Thomson,
Liechtenstein).
18. MichaelAnne Guido, "Ancestry of Beatrice, wife of Robert
Hauley - Part Two," 14 January 2005, email
ClaudiusI0@aol.com, cites Calendar of Documents pertaining
to Scotland preserved in her majestys public Record office,
London edited by Joseph Bain, Vol. I 1108-1272, #2047.
April 24, 1256; also #1420. Dec. 30, 1303.
19. "Calendar of the Close Rolls," Edw III (1327-1330), London:
Printed for His Majesty's Stationery Office by Eyre and
Spottiswoode, 1896.
20. W. H. Bliss, B.C.L. and C. Johnson, M.A., "Calendar of Entries
in the Papal Registers Relating to Great Britain and Ireland,"
Papal Letters, Vol. III (A.D. 1342-1362), London: for the
Public Record Office, 1897, (reprinted 1971, Kraus-Thomson,
Liechtenstein).
21. D. E. Easson, ed., "Charters of the Abbey of Coupar Angus,"
Edinburgh: T. and A. Constable, Ltd., for the Scottish
History Society, 1947.
22. Jonathan Sumption, "The Hundred Years War," Philadelphia:
University of Pennsylvania Press, 1999, Vol. II: Trial by Fire.
23. "Charters of the Royal Burgh of Ayr," Edinburgh: printed for
The Ayr and Wigton Archaeological Association, 1883.
Hello All,
Following is the promised 9 generation pedigree, tracing
the descent of Alianore de Lovaine and her grandchildren
from Henry II of England and Eleanor of Aquitaine.
Cheers,
John *
1 Henry II 'Curtmantle' of England
----------------------------------------
Birth: 5 Mar 1132, Le Mans, Maine[1]
Death: 6 Jul 1189, Chinon, Touraine[1]
Burial: Fontevraud-L'Abbaye, Anjou
Occ: King of England 1154-1189
Father: Geoffrey 'Plantagenet' of Anjou (1113-1151)
Mother: Matilda of England (1102-1167)
Spouse: Eleanor of Aquitaine
Birth: abt 1122, Chateau de Belin-Beliet, Gironde[3]
Death: 31 Mar 1204, Fontevrault, Anjou[4]
Father: Guillaume X of Aquitaine (1099-1137)
Mother: Anor of Chatellerault (1103->1130)
Marr: 18 May 1152, Bordeaux[5]
Children: William (1153-<1156)
Henry (1155-1183), 'the Young King'
Matilda (<1156-1189)
Richard 'Coeur-de Lion' (1157-1199), King of England
Geoffrey (1158-1186), Duke of Brittany
Eleanor (1162-1214), m. Alfonso VIII of Castile
Joan (1165-1199), m. William of Sicily
John 'Lackland' (1167-1216), King of England
1.1 Matilda of England
----------------------------------------
Birth: bef Jul 1156, London[6],[7]
Death: 28 Jun 1189, Brunswick[7]
born London, June 1156 or shortly before (Eyton p. 18[6])
2nd wife of Henry the Lion, Duke of Saxony (later
of Bavaria)
cf. ES I Tafel 18[7]
Spouse: Henry 'the Lion' of Bavaria
Birth: ca 1132[7]
Death: 6 Aug 1195[7]
Father: Henry, Duke of Bavaria (1108-1139)
Mother: Gertrude of Supplinburg
Marr: 1 Feb 1168[7]
Children: Matilda (1171-<1213)
Henry, Count Palatine of the Rhine (ca1174-1227)
Lothar (ca1175-1190)
Otto IV, King of Germany (ca1177-1218)
NN (1182-)
William, Duke of Brunswick (1184-1213)
1.1.1 Matilda of Bavaria
----------------------------------------
Birth: 1171[8]
Death: bef May 1213[9]
Occ: Countess of Perche
Countess of Perche
baptized as Richenza:
' Matilda was the eldest child of the marriage between Henry the
Lion, duke of Bavaria and Saxony and his second wife, Matilda,
eldest daughter of King Henry II of England, duke of Normandy
and count of Anjou. Like her mother, she might have been given
her paternal grandmother's name, but Henry the Lion already
had a daughter by his first marriage and his mother's name,
Gertrude, was borne by the daughter of that marriage. For his
new daughter Duke Henry looked further back in his family tree,
choosing Richenza, and she used this name until the family
came in exile to the Anglo-Norman realm in the 1180s19. From
then on Duke Henry's daughter used her mother's name, Matilda,
which was also that of her maternal great grandmother, the
Empress Matilda.'[8]
foundress of the priory of les Clairets (near Nogent-le-Rotrou),
1204
cf. Shadis, p. 190[9]
Thompson, pp. 69-88[8]
Spouse: Geoffrey III, Count of Perche
Death: Apr 1202[8],[10]
Father: Rotrou III, Count of Perche (-1191)
Mother: Maud of Blois
Marr: Jul 1189[8],[9]
Children: Geoffrey (dvp -<1202)
Thomas (ca1193-1217)
1.1.1.1a Thomas of Perche*
----------------------------------------
Birth: ca 1193[8]
Death: 20 May 1217, Battle of Lincoln[8]
Occ: Count of Perche
Count of Perche 1202-1217
confirmed the gifts of his mother 'to the nuns of le Clairets,
of the Cistercian order.'
supporter of Prince Louis of France, he fought for the Prince
in England;
slain in the Battle of Lincoln.
Thomas, count of Perche, was married to Helisende of Rethel
when he was slain at Lincoln in 1217. She was alive in
1224, by which date she had consented to 2 charters
of William, count of Perche (and bishop of Chalons).
Her seal has also been identified on a charter dated 1231,
found in the archives of l'Yonne.
cf. Shadis, p. 190[9]
Thompson, p. 70[8]
Genealogics I00330955[11] [cites ES III/4 689]
Debut de l'Histoirce de Mauves, cites charters granting
property to the abbey of la Trappe. URL:
http://mauves-huisne.com/components.php ... revolution
Vicomte de Souance et l'Abbe Ch. Metais, eds.,
Saint-Denis de Nogent-le-Rotrou, 1031-1789: Histoire
et Cartulaire (Vannes: Imprimerie et Librairie
LaFoyle, 1899), p. lxix. This source indicates that
Thomas had a first wife, Marguerite: she must have
died quite young, given that Thomas was aged about
24 (and married to Helisende) at the time he was
slain at Lincoln.
Spouse: Margaret [evidently, 1st wife]
1.1.1.1b Thomas of Perche* (See above)
----------------------------------------
Spouse: Helisende de Rethel [2nd wife]
Father: Hugh II, Count of Rethel (-ca1227)
Mother: Felicite de Broyes
Children: Thomas (<1215-)
1.1.1.1b.1 Thomas du Perche
----------------------------------------
Birth: bef 20 Mar 1215[11]
Bapt: 20 Mar 1215, Nogent-le-Rotrou[11]
cf. Genealogics I00330957[11] [cites ES III/4 689]
Thomas, the son, has been identified (or assumed) to
be illegitimate [11], probably due to the succession of William
(his great-uncle) as Count in 1217. Thomas was residing
in England by 1244, as he is found in London on 6 March
1243/4, marrying one Catherine Lesmayes. This
marriage is shown as producing a son Joseph (or Joseph
Thomas). Given the proximity of Thomas' birth to the
death of his father, while still married to Helisende of
Rethel, it appears that he was the legitimate son of
Thomas and Helisende, and the father of Henry III's
kinswoman Helisant (or Helisende).
Spouse: Catherine Lesmaye
Marr: 6 Mar 1243[11]
Children: Helisant
Joseph [Joseph Thomas ?]
1.1.1.1b.1.1 Helisant 'de Perche'[12]
----------------------------------------
'kinswoman of Henry III', as identified in account of her
husband Matthew de Lovaine:
' He m., 1stly, on or before 31 May 1268, Helisant,
a kinswoman of Henry III, who gave 300 marks as her
marriage portion. ' [CP VIII:180, and note (f).[13]]
re: her husband:
of Little Easton, Essex and Bildeston, Suffolk
steward of Eye[12]
IPM of Matthew de Lovayn, at Malton, co. Yorks. 9 June 1302
(writ dated Westminster 24 May 1302) [Yorks. Inqs. IV:18-19[14]]
Spouse: Matthew de Lovaine
Birth: bef 26 Nov 1237[13]
Death: bef 24 May 1302[14],[15]
Father: Matthew de Lovaine (-<1258)
Mother: Muriel (->1274)
Marr: bef 1 Jun 1268[13]
Children: Alianore (->1326)
1.1.1.1b.1.1.1a Alianore de Lovaine*
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 3 May 1326[13]
Burial: Dunmow priory
given the manors of Stebbing and Woodham to hold in tenancy until
her dower was assigned, 20 January 1287/88.[13]
her dower included the manor of Frating, Essex [identified in
Inq.p.m. 28 Nov 1308] - CP V:342n[13]
she was abducted by Sir William Douglas before 28 January 1288/89
(married after fine of £100 assessed 18 February 1290/91)[13]
Sir William Douglas was mprisoned (for abducting Alianore de
Lovaine) at Leeds Castle - he was released 15 May 1290, and
his manor of Fawdon restored to him[13]
he was arrested for failure to give hostages in connection with
a pardon in July 1297, and committed to the Tower of London[13]:
order dated Oct. 12, 1297, Westminster:
' To Ralph de Sandwyco, constable of the Tower of London. Order
to receive William de Douglas, Thomas de Morham and John de
Fortore of Scotland, whom John de Warenna, earl of Surrey, will
deliver to him, and to cause them to be kept safely in the Tower
until otherwise ordered. ' [CCR (Edw. I, 1296-1302) IV:67[16]]
licence granted by King Edward I, dated at Kildrummy, Scotland,
9 Oct 1303:
' Licence for Eleanor, late the wife of William de Ferar[iis],
tenant in chief, to marry John de Wysham, king's yeoman, if she
so desires. ' [CPR 31 Edw. I, mem. 11, p. 161[17]]
by a fine dated 1313, William de Bagot (third husband) and
Alianore his wife conveyed tenements in co. Stafford to
themselves and heirs of their bodies, with remainder to
Archibald, son of Alianore (CP V:342n)[13]
m. lstly Sir William de Ferrers (his second wife)
2ndly Sir William Douglas ( his second wife)
3rdly Sir William Bagot
Spouse: Sir William de Ferrers, of Groby, co. Leics. [1st husband]
Birth: abt 1240[13]
Death: bef 20 Dec 1287[13]
Father: William de Ferrers, Earl of Derby (-<1254)
Mother: Margaret de Quincy (-<1280)
1.1.1.1b.1.1.1b Alianore de Lovaine* (See above)
----------------------------------------
Spouse: Sir William de Douglas [2nd husband]
Death: bef 24 Jan 1298, Tower of London[13]
Birth: aft 24 Apr 1235[18]
Father: Sir William de Douglas (->1269)
Mother: Constance de Bataille
Marr: aft 18 Feb 1290[13]
Children: Archibald 'the Tyneman' (>1290-1333)
Hugh (>1294-)
1.1.1.1b.1.1.1b.1 Archibald 'the Tyneman' de Douglas
----------------------------------------
Death: 19 Jul 1333, Battle of Halidon Hill
Birth: aft 18 Feb 1290[13]
Occ: lord of Liddesdale
lord of Liddesdale
* parentage proven by fine dated 1313, William de Bagot
(his stepfather) and Alianore his wife conveyed tenements
in co. Stafford to themselves and heirs of their bodies,
with remainder to Archibald, son of Alianore. (CP V:342n)[13]
his English lands were forfeited:
grant dated at Gloucester, 20 June 1330:
' Grant, for life, at the request of Roger de Mortuo Mari,
earl of March, to Richard de Burgh of a messuage, a carucate
of land, 10 acres of wood, and 4s. in rent in Wylbrighton,
co. Stafford, which escheated to the late king by the
forfeiture of Archibald Duglas. By p.s. '
[ CPR 4 Edw III (1327-1330), mem. 13, p. 535[19]]
Spouse: Beatrix de Lindsay
Death: bef 6 Mar 1355[20],[21]
Father: Sir Alexander de Lindsay (>1258-)
Children: William (-1384)
Eleanora, m. 1) Alexander Bruce, E of Carrick
2) James Sandilands
3) Sir Patrick Hepburn
[possibly others]
1.1.1.1b.1.1.1b.1.1a William Douglas*
----------------------------------------
Death: May 1384[13]
Occ: Earl of Douglas
1st Earl of Douglas
fought in the French army at Poitiers, 19 Sept 1356[5]
[commander of the 1st division, with the Dauphin Charles]
injured in the cavalry charge on the English left, together
with Arnoul d'Audrehem [Sumption, pp. 238-9[22]]
" Sir William de Douglas, Earl of Mar, our cousin "
[ ' domino Willielmo de Douglas et de Marr consanguineo
nostro ' ], witness [together with John Stewart, Earl
of Carrick and his brother Robert Stewart of Fife and
Menteith, Sir James Lindsay, Sir Kentigern de Lindsay
and Sir Alexander de Lindsay ] to a charter of King
Robert II dated at Edinburgh, 10 Dec 1380 [Chart. Ayr
pp. xxxv-xxxvi[23]]
Spouse: Margaret of Mar
Death: aft 5 Dec 1389[13]
Father: Donald, Earl of Mar (-1332)
Mother: Isabel
Marr: bef 13 Nov 1357[13]
Children: James Douglas, Earl of Douglas(-1388)
Isabel, m. 1) Malcolm Drummond,
m. 2) Alexander Stewart, earl of Mar
1.1.1.1b.1.1.1b.1.1b William Douglas* (See above)
----------------------------------------
Associated with: Margaret Stewart, Countess of Angus
Father: Thomas Stewart, Earl of Angus (-1361)
Mother: Margaret Sinclair
Children: George Douglas, 1st Earl of Angus (-ca1402)
1.1.1.1b.1.1.1c Alianore de Lovaine* (See above)
----------------------------------------
Spouse: Sir William Bagot [3rd husband]
Marr: aft 8 Apr 1305[17]
1. W. L. Warren, "Henry II," University of California Press, 1973,
[English Monarchs Series].
2. Rene de la Croix, duc de Castries, "The Lives of the Kings and
Queens of France," New York: Alfred A. Knopf, Inc., 1979.
3. Christian Settipani, "Trente-Deux Quartiers Ahnenreihe for Eleanor
of Aquitaine," 6 Sept 1998, GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com,
rootsweb.com (rsponse to D.Spencer Hines, same subject, 2
Sept 1998.
4. David Faris, "Plantagenet Ancestry of Seventeenth-Century
Colonists," Boston: New England Historic Genealogical Society,
1999, (2nd edition, 1999).
5. David Faris, "Plantagenet Ancestry of 17th Century Colonists,"
Baltimore: the Genealogical Pub. Company, 1st ed.
6. Robert William Eyton, "Court, Household, and Itinerary of King
Henry II," London: Taylor, 1878.
7. Detlev Schewennicke, "Europäische Stammtafeln: Neue Folge,"
[ " European Family Trees: Family Trees for the History of
European States, New Series " ], Frankfurt am Main: Vittorio
Klostermann, 1998 [4th series], Band I.1 [Tafel 3 - Die
Arnulfinger -751-771 Konige der Franken ], First series by
Wilhelm Karl, Prinz zu Isenburg, continued second series by
Frank, Baron Freytag von Loringhoven.
8. Kathleen Thompson, "Matilda, countess of the Perche
(1171-1210): the expression of authority in name, style and
seal," Tabularia e Etudes, no. 3, 2003, pp. 69-88, URL
http://www.unicaen.fr/mrsh/crahm/revue/ ... mpson.html
email Kathleen.Thompson@shu.ac.uk,
Honorary Research Fellow, University of Sheffield.
9. Miriam Shadis and Constance Hoffman Berman, "A Taste of
the Feast: Reconsidering Eleanor of Aquitaine's Female
Descendants," Bonnie Wheeler and John Carmi Parsons, eds.,
"Eleanor of Aquitaine: Lord and Lady," New York: Palgrave
Macmillan, 2002, Chapter 8 (pp. 177-211).
10. Adrian Channing, "Re: ROYAL BASTARDS/HENRY I," Sept 10, 1998,
GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com, cites Bradenstoke Cartulary, 655
[1144 x 1191] and 235 [1191 x 1202].
11. "Genealogics," website by Leo van de Pas,
http://www.genealogics.com,
cites Europäische Stammtafeln, J.A. Stargardt Verlag Marburg.,
Detlev Schwennicke, Editor, [ES], and other sources.
13. G. E. Cokayne, "The Complete Peerage," 1910 - [microprint,
1982 (Alan Sutton) ], The Complete Peerage of England Scotland
Ireland Great Britain and the United Kingdom.
14. William Brown, B.A., ed., "Yorkshire Inquisitions," The
Yorkshire Archaeological Society, Record Series), various
dates:, Vol. I (Record series vol. XII) - 1892, Vol.
II(Record series vol. XXIII) - 1898, Vol. III (Record series
vol. XXXI) - 1902, Vol. IV (Record series vol. XXXVII) - 1906.
15. I. J. Sanders, "English Baronies: A Study of Their Origin and
Descent, 1086-1327," Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1960.
16. "Calendar of the Close Rolls," Edw I, vol. IV (1296-1302),
London: Printed for His Majesty's Stationery Office by Mackie
& Co., LD., 1906.
17. "Calendar of the Patent Rolls," preserved in the Public Record
Office, Edward I. A.D. 1301-1307, London: for the Public
Record Office, 1898, (reprinted 1971, Kraus-Thomson,
Liechtenstein).
18. MichaelAnne Guido, "Ancestry of Beatrice, wife of Robert
Hauley - Part Two," 14 January 2005, email
ClaudiusI0@aol.com, cites Calendar of Documents pertaining
to Scotland preserved in her majestys public Record office,
London edited by Joseph Bain, Vol. I 1108-1272, #2047.
April 24, 1256; also #1420. Dec. 30, 1303.
19. "Calendar of the Close Rolls," Edw III (1327-1330), London:
Printed for His Majesty's Stationery Office by Eyre and
Spottiswoode, 1896.
20. W. H. Bliss, B.C.L. and C. Johnson, M.A., "Calendar of Entries
in the Papal Registers Relating to Great Britain and Ireland,"
Papal Letters, Vol. III (A.D. 1342-1362), London: for the
Public Record Office, 1897, (reprinted 1971, Kraus-Thomson,
Liechtenstein).
21. D. E. Easson, ed., "Charters of the Abbey of Coupar Angus,"
Edinburgh: T. and A. Constable, Ltd., for the Scottish
History Society, 1947.
22. Jonathan Sumption, "The Hundred Years War," Philadelphia:
University of Pennsylvania Press, 1999, Vol. II: Trial by Fire.
23. "Charters of the Royal Burgh of Ayr," Edinburgh: printed for
The Ayr and Wigton Archaeological Association, 1883.
-
Renia
Re: de vanci, de wanci de Waunci, de vancé, de Vanssay
Top-posting and crossposting this to the more relevant newsgroup,
soc.genealogy.medieval.
Katherine Keats-Rohan has published "Domesday People - A Prosopography
of Persons Occurring in English Documents, 1066-1166" It is not a
genealogical work, but it is an academic book of serious study, an
attempt to find the genealogical origins and relationships of as many
Domesday People as possible. There is a second book called "Domesday
Descendants", where Keats-Rohan has ploughed through charters and other
documents for the century or so following the Norman Conquest of 1066.
The spellings, below, are as they appear in the two books.
In Domesday People:
OSBERN DE WANCEIO
Norman, from Wanchy-Capeval, Seine-Martime, cant. Londinieres. held land
in the fief of Richard de Clare in Domesday6 Suffolk that Richard
claimed for the holding of his predecessor Finn. He was perhaps the son
of Hugh de Wanchy, a tenant of William de Warenne, who occurs with his
father and brother in a Castle Acre deed before 1118.
HUGO DE WANCI
Norman, from Wanchy-Capeval, cant. Londinieres, Seine-Maritime. Domesday
tenant of William de Warenne in Suffolk and Norfolk. Occurs as a
benefactor of Castle Acre priory, a 1118, with his sons Osbern and
Ralph. Probably father also of Osmodis, wife of Philip de Candos, alias
de Warenne, of Burnham.
In Domesday Descendants:
HUGO DE WANCY II
Son of Ralph II de Wanchy.
OSBERN DE WANCY II
Acquired land in the fee of Picquigny at Astwell, Northamptonshire, with
his wife Aaliz. His children Robert, William and Christiane confirmed
their parents' figts to Biddleston abbey.
OSMOD DE WANCY
Daughter of Ralph I de Wancy, wife of Philip de Candos.
RADULF DE WANCY
Son of Hugh I de Wancy. He left issue Ralph, Roger, Hugh and Osmod, wife
of Philip de Candos.
RADULF DE WANCY II
Son of Radulf I fitz Hugh I de Wanchy. Made grants to Castle Acre with
his brother Roger. Provably father of Hugh II.
ROBERT DE WANCY
Son of Osbert II de Wanchy. Held one fee of Gilbert de Pinkeny in 1166.
Made a grant of land at Astwell, Northamptonshire, to Biddlesden priory
for the soul of his father, confirmed by his son Robert. In 1242/43
Robert de Wancy held Stone, Buckinghamshire, for half a fee of Henry de
Pinkeny, and another fee elsewhere.
ROGER DE WANCY
Son of Ralph I fitz Hugh I de Wanchy. He was named as his maternal uncle
in a charter of Seher II de Arceles for Bridlington. Mortgaged land at
Stanstead to Bruo the Jew. Michael de Wanchy, son and heir of Roger de
Wanchy, and his brother Osbert occur in a charter of 1178 concerning the
mortgage.
J'espere que vous le comprennez et que c'est d'un petit assistance.
Renia
Vanssay wrote:
soc.genealogy.medieval.
Katherine Keats-Rohan has published "Domesday People - A Prosopography
of Persons Occurring in English Documents, 1066-1166" It is not a
genealogical work, but it is an academic book of serious study, an
attempt to find the genealogical origins and relationships of as many
Domesday People as possible. There is a second book called "Domesday
Descendants", where Keats-Rohan has ploughed through charters and other
documents for the century or so following the Norman Conquest of 1066.
The spellings, below, are as they appear in the two books.
In Domesday People:
OSBERN DE WANCEIO
Norman, from Wanchy-Capeval, Seine-Martime, cant. Londinieres. held land
in the fief of Richard de Clare in Domesday6 Suffolk that Richard
claimed for the holding of his predecessor Finn. He was perhaps the son
of Hugh de Wanchy, a tenant of William de Warenne, who occurs with his
father and brother in a Castle Acre deed before 1118.
HUGO DE WANCI
Norman, from Wanchy-Capeval, cant. Londinieres, Seine-Maritime. Domesday
tenant of William de Warenne in Suffolk and Norfolk. Occurs as a
benefactor of Castle Acre priory, a 1118, with his sons Osbern and
Ralph. Probably father also of Osmodis, wife of Philip de Candos, alias
de Warenne, of Burnham.
In Domesday Descendants:
HUGO DE WANCY II
Son of Ralph II de Wanchy.
OSBERN DE WANCY II
Acquired land in the fee of Picquigny at Astwell, Northamptonshire, with
his wife Aaliz. His children Robert, William and Christiane confirmed
their parents' figts to Biddleston abbey.
OSMOD DE WANCY
Daughter of Ralph I de Wancy, wife of Philip de Candos.
RADULF DE WANCY
Son of Hugh I de Wancy. He left issue Ralph, Roger, Hugh and Osmod, wife
of Philip de Candos.
RADULF DE WANCY II
Son of Radulf I fitz Hugh I de Wanchy. Made grants to Castle Acre with
his brother Roger. Provably father of Hugh II.
ROBERT DE WANCY
Son of Osbert II de Wanchy. Held one fee of Gilbert de Pinkeny in 1166.
Made a grant of land at Astwell, Northamptonshire, to Biddlesden priory
for the soul of his father, confirmed by his son Robert. In 1242/43
Robert de Wancy held Stone, Buckinghamshire, for half a fee of Henry de
Pinkeny, and another fee elsewhere.
ROGER DE WANCY
Son of Ralph I fitz Hugh I de Wanchy. He was named as his maternal uncle
in a charter of Seher II de Arceles for Bridlington. Mortgaged land at
Stanstead to Bruo the Jew. Michael de Wanchy, son and heir of Roger de
Wanchy, and his brother Osbert occur in a charter of 1178 concerning the
mortgage.
J'espere que vous le comprennez et que c'est d'un petit assistance.
Renia
Vanssay wrote:
hello,
First of all excuse me for my poor english! I am looking for
information concerning the family "de wauncy" or "de wancy" a british
part of my family. One of my ancestor, Guillaume (william) de Vancsez
made in 1037 agreement with Foulques of St Calais at about the same
period that Guillaume de St-Calais (William of St Calais, monk in the
same abbaye) was the confessor of William the Conqueror. Later he
became bishop of Durham. Hugo and Osberne de Vanci or Wanci were with
William the Conqueror at Hastings ( in Domesday Book). Several ways to
spell my familiy have existed. Vancé until the XVIIIth century, Vansay
sometimes, and other spelling, and my family, one of the oldest in
France, has kept a lot of archives. In french "w" and "v" are
pronounced in the same way (Wandrille, Wallon...), , except if the word
comes from anglosaxon origin. Vancé is a village still existing close
to St Calais and there was a chateau there that belonged to my familiy
until the XIVth century. The origin of the name should be "Venetiacus"
means the "venete" a nation of Brittany. If we know since many
generations that we participate to Hastings we have no information
about our part of the family in England. I would be very interested in
any information about them. I think that they probably disappear in the
XVth century after having been sheriff in the Sussex.
Their coat of arms is different of ours but many families at this
period had several coat of arms.
Thank you for any information on that topic.
Kind regards,
-
John P. Ravilious
Re: CP Correction: Helisant 'du Perche', wife of Matthew de
Dear Will,
Mr. Costain was quite an enjoyable writer - he certainly
helped feed my interest in the Angevin family in my youth.
However, I enjoy Dan Brown's writing as well: but, in neither
case would I use Costain or Brown as a source concerning any medieval
family (Plantagenet, Sinclair, or otherwise).
Cheers,
John
WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
Mr. Costain was quite an enjoyable writer - he certainly
helped feed my interest in the Angevin family in my youth.
However, I enjoy Dan Brown's writing as well: but, in neither
case would I use Costain or Brown as a source concerning any medieval
family (Plantagenet, Sinclair, or otherwise).
Cheers,
John
WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
Hmmm actually I was going to smugly cite Thomas Costain "The Conquering
Century" but... he.. actually doesn't have this Philip so maybe I'm mistaken that
this person existed.
Will
-
Gjest
Re: CP Correction: Helisant 'du Perche', wife of Matthew de
Hmmm actually I was going to smugly cite Thomas Costain "The Conquering
Century" but... he.. actually doesn't have this Philip so maybe I'm mistaken that
this person existed.
Will
Century" but... he.. actually doesn't have this Philip so maybe I'm mistaken that
this person existed.
Will
-
Gjest
Re: CP Correction: Helisant 'du Perche', wife of Matthew de
In a message dated 9/7/06 5:18:43 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Therav3@aol.com
writes:
<< Children: William (1153-<1156)
Henry (1155-1183), 'the Young King'
Matilda (<1156-1189)
Richard 'Coeur-de Lion' (1157-1199), King of England
Geoffrey (1158-1186), Duke of Brittany
Eleanor (1162-1214), m. Alfonso VIII of Castile
Joan (1165-1199), m. William of Sicily
John 'Lackland' (1167-1216), King of England >>
And "Philip" born 1163/4 died "as an infant"
writes:
<< Children: William (1153-<1156)
Henry (1155-1183), 'the Young King'
Matilda (<1156-1189)
Richard 'Coeur-de Lion' (1157-1199), King of England
Geoffrey (1158-1186), Duke of Brittany
Eleanor (1162-1214), m. Alfonso VIII of Castile
Joan (1165-1199), m. William of Sicily
John 'Lackland' (1167-1216), King of England >>
And "Philip" born 1163/4 died "as an infant"
-
Peter Stewart
Re: CP Correction: Helisant 'du Perche', wife of Matthew de
<WJhonson@aol.com> wrote in message news:239.a559180.3231e61a@aol.com...
According to Andrew Lewis there was a son born 1160/1 or 1163/4 who died in
infancy, but as far as I know there is no warrant for naming him Philip -
see The Birth and Childhood of King John: Some Revisions, _Eleanor of
Aquitaine: Lord and Lady_, edited by John Carmi Parsons & Bonnie Wheeler
(New York & Basingstoke, 2002) p. 161 and n. 10.
Peter Stewart
In a message dated 9/7/06 5:18:43 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
Therav3@aol.com
writes:
Children: William (1153-<1156)
Henry (1155-1183), 'the Young King'
Matilda (<1156-1189)
Richard 'Coeur-de Lion' (1157-1199), King of England
Geoffrey (1158-1186), Duke of Brittany
Eleanor (1162-1214), m. Alfonso VIII of Castile
Joan (1165-1199), m. William of Sicily
John 'Lackland' (1167-1216), King of England
And "Philip" born 1163/4 died "as an infant"
According to Andrew Lewis there was a son born 1160/1 or 1163/4 who died in
infancy, but as far as I know there is no warrant for naming him Philip -
see The Birth and Childhood of King John: Some Revisions, _Eleanor of
Aquitaine: Lord and Lady_, edited by John Carmi Parsons & Bonnie Wheeler
(New York & Basingstoke, 2002) p. 161 and n. 10.
Peter Stewart
-
Gjest
Re: CP Correction: Helisant 'du Perche', wife of Matthew de
In a message dated 9/7/06 3:29:19 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
p_m_stewart@msn.com writes:
<< The deep trouble for this conjecture is the destiny of the Perche and its
countship - when Count Geoffrey III died in 1202 there was no question over
the recognition of his son Thomas, aged around 8, as his successor. >>
The conjecture that Helisent, wife of Matthew Louvain was kin to the King
doesn't necessarily rest on Thomas being legitimate does it?
Helisent, the conjectured gggranddaughter of Matilda (wife of Henry the Lion,
Duke of Saxony) would be related to the King through her Perche ancestry, not
her possibly spurious Rethel ancestry.
Will
p_m_stewart@msn.com writes:
<< The deep trouble for this conjecture is the destiny of the Perche and its
countship - when Count Geoffrey III died in 1202 there was no question over
the recognition of his son Thomas, aged around 8, as his successor. >>
The conjecture that Helisent, wife of Matthew Louvain was kin to the King
doesn't necessarily rest on Thomas being legitimate does it?
Helisent, the conjectured gggranddaughter of Matilda (wife of Henry the Lion,
Duke of Saxony) would be related to the King through her Perche ancestry, not
her possibly spurious Rethel ancestry.
Will
-
Gjest
Re: CP Correction: Helisant 'du Perche', wife of Matthew de
Can you verify the wives of Matthew de Lovaine and which children are
by which wife. Wasn't his second wife NN de Blakenham? If so, how
could he be married thirdly to Helisant du Perche before 1 June 1268
when his son Sir Thomas de Lovaine was born in 1291. This doesn't jive
with previous posts by Doug Richardson or Rosie Bevan. Also see
Ancestral Roots, 8th edition, line 155A.
Therav3@aol.com wrote:
by which wife. Wasn't his second wife NN de Blakenham? If so, how
could he be married thirdly to Helisant du Perche before 1 June 1268
when his son Sir Thomas de Lovaine was born in 1291. This doesn't jive
with previous posts by Doug Richardson or Rosie Bevan. Also see
Ancestral Roots, 8th edition, line 155A.
Therav3@aol.com wrote:
Thursday, 7 September, 2006
SNIPPED.
-
Peter Stewart
Re: CP Correction: Helisant 'du Perche', wife of Matthew de
WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
The "conjecture" is not that Helesent wife of Matthew de Lovaine was a
kinswoman of the king, but that she can be identified as a
granddaughter of Helisende de Rethel. On the ill-founded argument put
forward, she can't.
Peter Stewart
In a message dated 9/7/06 3:29:19 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
p_m_stewart@msn.com writes:
The deep trouble for this conjecture is the destiny of the Perche and its
countship - when Count Geoffrey III died in 1202 there was no question over
the recognition of his son Thomas, aged around 8, as his successor.
The conjecture that Helisent, wife of Matthew Louvain was kin to the King
doesn't necessarily rest on Thomas being legitimate does it?
Helisent, the conjectured gggranddaughter of Matilda (wife of Henry the Lion,
Duke of Saxony) would be related to the King through her Perche ancestry, not
her possibly spurious Rethel ancestry.
The "conjecture" is not that Helesent wife of Matthew de Lovaine was a
kinswoman of the king, but that she can be identified as a
granddaughter of Helisende de Rethel. On the ill-founded argument put
forward, she can't.
Peter Stewart
-
Peter Stewart
Re: CP Correction: Helisant 'du Perche', wife of Matthew de
mhollick@mac.com wrote:
By his first wife, Helesent of unknown family, Matthew de Lovaine had a
daughter Alianore, who married successively (1) William Ferrers, lord
of Groby (died before 20 December 1287); (2) William Douglas (died
before 24 January 1299); and (3) William Bagot, of Pateshull (died
before 3 May 1326).
Thomas de Lovaine was born to Matthew's second wife, a sister of Thomas
Blakenham.
Consequently the case from onomastics for Helesent's connection to the
family of Count Thomas of the Perche is without foundation.
Peter Stewart
Can you verify the wives of Matthew de Lovaine and which children are
by which wife. Wasn't his second wife NN de Blakenham? If so, how
could he be married thirdly to Helisant du Perche before 1 June 1268
when his son Sir Thomas de Lovaine was born in 1291. This doesn't jive
with previous posts by Doug Richardson or Rosie Bevan. Also see
Ancestral Roots, 8th edition, line 155A.
By his first wife, Helesent of unknown family, Matthew de Lovaine had a
daughter Alianore, who married successively (1) William Ferrers, lord
of Groby (died before 20 December 1287); (2) William Douglas (died
before 24 January 1299); and (3) William Bagot, of Pateshull (died
before 3 May 1326).
Thomas de Lovaine was born to Matthew's second wife, a sister of Thomas
Blakenham.
Consequently the case from onomastics for Helesent's connection to the
family of Count Thomas of the Perche is without foundation.
Peter Stewart
-
Peter Stewart
Re: CP Correction: Helisant 'du Perche', wife of Matthew de
WJhon...@aol.com wrote:
She was his second wife, and he already had a son & heir by his first.
I'm not sure what special qualities or qualifications Alianore de
Lovaine can have needed for such a marriage - her father was lord of
Little Easton and steward of Eye, her mother was evidently somehow a
kinswoman of King Henry III, just the kind of connections that second
sons of earls would often have made, I suppose. The notion that she
might have been the unrecognised heiress of the Perche and related of
the dukes of Bavaria and Brunswick is fanciful.
Peter Stewart
In a message dated 9/7/06 6:44:40 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
p_m_stewart@msn.com writes:
By his first wife, Helesent of unknown family, Matthew de Lovaine had a
daughter Alianore, who married successively (1) William Ferrers, lord
of Groby (died before 20 December 1287); (2) William Douglas (died
before 24 January 1299); and (3) William Bagot, of Pateshull (died
before 3 May 1326).
Alianore's first husband William was not just the 1st Baron Ferrers of Groby,
but also the son of the Earl of Derby, although a second (or later) son.
What did Alianore bring to this kind of match that made her an appropriate
wife for an Earl's son ?
She was his second wife, and he already had a son & heir by his first.
I'm not sure what special qualities or qualifications Alianore de
Lovaine can have needed for such a marriage - her father was lord of
Little Easton and steward of Eye, her mother was evidently somehow a
kinswoman of King Henry III, just the kind of connections that second
sons of earls would often have made, I suppose. The notion that she
might have been the unrecognised heiress of the Perche and related of
the dukes of Bavaria and Brunswick is fanciful.
Peter Stewart
-
Gjest
Re: CP Correction: Helisant 'du Perche', wife of Matthew de
In a message dated 9/7/06 6:44:40 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
p_m_stewart@msn.com writes:
<< By his first wife, Helesent of unknown family, Matthew de Lovaine had a
daughter Alianore, who married successively (1) William Ferrers, lord
of Groby (died before 20 December 1287); (2) William Douglas (died
before 24 January 1299); and (3) William Bagot, of Pateshull (died
before 3 May 1326). >>
Alianore's first husband William was not just the 1st Baron Ferrers of Groby,
but also the son of the Earl of Derby, although a second (or later) son.
What did Alianore bring to this kind of match that made her an appropriate
wife for an Earl's son ?
Will Johnson
p_m_stewart@msn.com writes:
<< By his first wife, Helesent of unknown family, Matthew de Lovaine had a
daughter Alianore, who married successively (1) William Ferrers, lord
of Groby (died before 20 December 1287); (2) William Douglas (died
before 24 January 1299); and (3) William Bagot, of Pateshull (died
before 3 May 1326). >>
Alianore's first husband William was not just the 1st Baron Ferrers of Groby,
but also the son of the Earl of Derby, although a second (or later) son.
What did Alianore bring to this kind of match that made her an appropriate
wife for an Earl's son ?
Will Johnson
-
Vanssay
Re: de vanci, de wanci de Waunci, de vancé, de Vanssay
Thank you very much for this very detailed information.
I did not know this possibility of origin.
Do you have any other information with the name "de Waunci" or "de
Wauncy" and if so, is it the same family?
Renia wrote:
I did not know this possibility of origin.
Do you have any other information with the name "de Waunci" or "de
Wauncy" and if so, is it the same family?
Renia wrote:
Top-posting and crossposting this to the more relevant newsgroup,
soc.genealogy.medieval.
Katherine Keats-Rohan has published "Domesday People - A Prosopography
of Persons Occurring in English Documents, 1066-1166" It is not a
genealogical work, but it is an academic book of serious study, an
attempt to find the genealogical origins and relationships of as many
Domesday People as possible. There is a second book called "Domesday
Descendants", where Keats-Rohan has ploughed through charters and other
documents for the century or so following the Norman Conquest of 1066.
The spellings, below, are as they appear in the two books.
In Domesday People:
OSBERN DE WANCEIO
Norman, from Wanchy-Capeval, Seine-Martime, cant. Londinieres. held land
in the fief of Richard de Clare in Domesday6 Suffolk that Richard
claimed for the holding of his predecessor Finn. He was perhaps the son
of Hugh de Wanchy, a tenant of William de Warenne, who occurs with his
father and brother in a Castle Acre deed before 1118.
HUGO DE WANCI
Norman, from Wanchy-Capeval, cant. Londinieres, Seine-Maritime. Domesday
tenant of William de Warenne in Suffolk and Norfolk. Occurs as a
benefactor of Castle Acre priory, a 1118, with his sons Osbern and
Ralph. Probably father also of Osmodis, wife of Philip de Candos, alias
de Warenne, of Burnham.
In Domesday Descendants:
HUGO DE WANCY II
Son of Ralph II de Wanchy.
OSBERN DE WANCY II
Acquired land in the fee of Picquigny at Astwell, Northamptonshire, with
his wife Aaliz. His children Robert, William and Christiane confirmed
their parents' figts to Biddleston abbey.
OSMOD DE WANCY
Daughter of Ralph I de Wancy, wife of Philip de Candos.
RADULF DE WANCY
Son of Hugh I de Wancy. He left issue Ralph, Roger, Hugh and Osmod, wife
of Philip de Candos.
RADULF DE WANCY II
Son of Radulf I fitz Hugh I de Wanchy. Made grants to Castle Acre with
his brother Roger. Provably father of Hugh II.
ROBERT DE WANCY
Son of Osbert II de Wanchy. Held one fee of Gilbert de Pinkeny in 1166.
Made a grant of land at Astwell, Northamptonshire, to Biddlesden priory
for the soul of his father, confirmed by his son Robert. In 1242/43
Robert de Wancy held Stone, Buckinghamshire, for half a fee of Henry de
Pinkeny, and another fee elsewhere.
ROGER DE WANCY
Son of Ralph I fitz Hugh I de Wanchy. He was named as his maternal uncle
in a charter of Seher II de Arceles for Bridlington. Mortgaged land at
Stanstead to Bruo the Jew. Michael de Wanchy, son and heir of Roger de
Wanchy, and his brother Osbert occur in a charter of 1178 concerning the
mortgage.
J'espere que vous le comprennez et que c'est d'un petit assistance.
Renia
Vanssay wrote:
hello,
First of all excuse me for my poor english! I am looking for
information concerning the family "de wauncy" or "de wancy" a british
part of my family. One of my ancestor, Guillaume (william) de Vancsez
made in 1037 agreement with Foulques of St Calais at about the same
period that Guillaume de St-Calais (William of St Calais, monk in the
same abbaye) was the confessor of William the Conqueror. Later he
became bishop of Durham. Hugo and Osberne de Vanci or Wanci were with
William the Conqueror at Hastings ( in Domesday Book). Several ways to
spell my familiy have existed. Vancé until the XVIIIth century, Vansay
sometimes, and other spelling, and my family, one of the oldest in
France, has kept a lot of archives. In french "w" and "v" are
pronounced in the same way (Wandrille, Wallon...), , except if the word
comes from anglosaxon origin. Vancé is a village still existing close
to St Calais and there was a chateau there that belonged to my familiy
until the XIVth century. The origin of the name should be "Venetiacus"
means the "venete" a nation of Brittany. If we know since many
generations that we participate to Hastings we have no information
about our part of the family in England. I would be very interested in
any information about them. I think that they probably disappear in the
XVth century after having been sheriff in the Sussex.
Their coat of arms is different of ours but many families at this
period had several coat of arms.
Thank you for any information on that topic.
Kind regards,
-
Renia
Re: de vanci, de wanci de Waunci, de vancé, de Vanssay
Vanssay wrote:
I do not personally have further information. The books I cited give the
sources for the information in English medieval records. You could
consult the books and the cited records, plus others, for more information.
Renia
Thank you very much for this very detailed information.
I did not know this possibility of origin.
Do you have any other information with the name "de Waunci" or "de
Wauncy" and if so, is it the same family?
I do not personally have further information. The books I cited give the
sources for the information in English medieval records. You could
consult the books and the cited records, plus others, for more information.
Renia
Renia wrote:
Top-posting and crossposting this to the more relevant newsgroup,
soc.genealogy.medieval.
Katherine Keats-Rohan has published "Domesday People - A Prosopography
of Persons Occurring in English Documents, 1066-1166" It is not a
genealogical work, but it is an academic book of serious study, an
attempt to find the genealogical origins and relationships of as many
Domesday People as possible. There is a second book called "Domesday
Descendants", where Keats-Rohan has ploughed through charters and other
documents for the century or so following the Norman Conquest of 1066.
The spellings, below, are as they appear in the two books.
In Domesday People:
OSBERN DE WANCEIO
Norman, from Wanchy-Capeval, Seine-Martime, cant. Londinieres. held land
in the fief of Richard de Clare in Domesday6 Suffolk that Richard
claimed for the holding of his predecessor Finn. He was perhaps the son
of Hugh de Wanchy, a tenant of William de Warenne, who occurs with his
father and brother in a Castle Acre deed before 1118.
HUGO DE WANCI
Norman, from Wanchy-Capeval, cant. Londinieres, Seine-Maritime. Domesday
tenant of William de Warenne in Suffolk and Norfolk. Occurs as a
benefactor of Castle Acre priory, a 1118, with his sons Osbern and
Ralph. Probably father also of Osmodis, wife of Philip de Candos, alias
de Warenne, of Burnham.
In Domesday Descendants:
HUGO DE WANCY II
Son of Ralph II de Wanchy.
OSBERN DE WANCY II
Acquired land in the fee of Picquigny at Astwell, Northamptonshire, with
his wife Aaliz. His children Robert, William and Christiane confirmed
their parents' figts to Biddleston abbey.
OSMOD DE WANCY
Daughter of Ralph I de Wancy, wife of Philip de Candos.
RADULF DE WANCY
Son of Hugh I de Wancy. He left issue Ralph, Roger, Hugh and Osmod, wife
of Philip de Candos.
RADULF DE WANCY II
Son of Radulf I fitz Hugh I de Wanchy. Made grants to Castle Acre with
his brother Roger. Provably father of Hugh II.
ROBERT DE WANCY
Son of Osbert II de Wanchy. Held one fee of Gilbert de Pinkeny in 1166.
Made a grant of land at Astwell, Northamptonshire, to Biddlesden priory
for the soul of his father, confirmed by his son Robert. In 1242/43
Robert de Wancy held Stone, Buckinghamshire, for half a fee of Henry de
Pinkeny, and another fee elsewhere.
ROGER DE WANCY
Son of Ralph I fitz Hugh I de Wanchy. He was named as his maternal uncle
in a charter of Seher II de Arceles for Bridlington. Mortgaged land at
Stanstead to Bruo the Jew. Michael de Wanchy, son and heir of Roger de
Wanchy, and his brother Osbert occur in a charter of 1178 concerning the
mortgage.
J'espere que vous le comprennez et que c'est d'un petit assistance.
Renia
Vanssay wrote:
hello,
First of all excuse me for my poor english! I am looking for
information concerning the family "de wauncy" or "de wancy" a british
part of my family. One of my ancestor, Guillaume (william) de Vancsez
made in 1037 agreement with Foulques of St Calais at about the same
period that Guillaume de St-Calais (William of St Calais, monk in the
same abbaye) was the confessor of William the Conqueror. Later he
became bishop of Durham. Hugo and Osberne de Vanci or Wanci were with
William the Conqueror at Hastings ( in Domesday Book). Several ways to
spell my familiy have existed. Vancé until the XVIIIth century, Vansay
sometimes, and other spelling, and my family, one of the oldest in
France, has kept a lot of archives. In french "w" and "v" are
pronounced in the same way (Wandrille, Wallon...), , except if the word
comes from anglosaxon origin. Vancé is a village still existing close
to St Calais and there was a chateau there that belonged to my familiy
until the XIVth century. The origin of the name should be "Venetiacus"
means the "venete" a nation of Brittany. If we know since many
generations that we participate to Hastings we have no information
about our part of the family in England. I would be very interested in
any information about them. I think that they probably disappear in the
XVth century after having been sheriff in the Sussex.
Their coat of arms is different of ours but many families at this
period had several coat of arms.
Thank you for any information on that topic.
Kind regards,
-
Gjest
Re: The origins of Redburh or Rædbu rh (a conjecture)
Friday, 8 September, 2006
Dear Peter,
Thanks for your reply yesterday to my post.
My reply of yesterday, concerning the rationale for the
placement of Rædburh in the family of Count Ingram, addressed
(on chronological and other grounds) the questions you raised
concerning my placement of her in "just one family with royal
links using names with the "Chrod-" element", i.e. that of Count
Ingram.
As to your first question:
" For starters, if Rædburh is supposed to be possibly an
Anglo-Saxon rendering of Ruodburga, are there examples of
the name of any Frankish duke, king or other called Ruodbert
becoming "Rædbert" across the Channel?"
There is one early example of Rædbert, that of Eorpwald, son
of Rædbert, a king in East Anglia, who apparently converted to
Christianity in the early 7th century. This is obviously not a
Frankish example, but does indicate that the name Rædbert did in
fact exist before the time of Egbert and Rædburh. The only
subsequent examples I note of a (possibly) pertinent cross-channel
name change are 11th century, where we have assorted Roberts
(including dukes of Normandy) being called Rodbeorht in
Anglo-Saxon records, ca. 1050 and later [1].
To what extent Rædbert and Rodbeorht may, or may not, be
phonetically similar (or, specifically, to a 9th century
Anglo-Saxon ear) I am not certain. Unfortunately, I see no
9th or 10th century examples that would bear directly on the
matter.
Cheers,
John
NOTES
[1] W. G. Searle, Onomasticon Ango-Saxonicum (Cambridge:
Cambridge Univ. Press, 1897), pp. 393, 402.
Dear Peter,
Thanks for your reply yesterday to my post.
My reply of yesterday, concerning the rationale for the
placement of Rædburh in the family of Count Ingram, addressed
(on chronological and other grounds) the questions you raised
concerning my placement of her in "just one family with royal
links using names with the "Chrod-" element", i.e. that of Count
Ingram.
As to your first question:
" For starters, if Rædburh is supposed to be possibly an
Anglo-Saxon rendering of Ruodburga, are there examples of
the name of any Frankish duke, king or other called Ruodbert
becoming "Rædbert" across the Channel?"
There is one early example of Rædbert, that of Eorpwald, son
of Rædbert, a king in East Anglia, who apparently converted to
Christianity in the early 7th century. This is obviously not a
Frankish example, but does indicate that the name Rædbert did in
fact exist before the time of Egbert and Rædburh. The only
subsequent examples I note of a (possibly) pertinent cross-channel
name change are 11th century, where we have assorted Roberts
(including dukes of Normandy) being called Rodbeorht in
Anglo-Saxon records, ca. 1050 and later [1].
To what extent Rædbert and Rodbeorht may, or may not, be
phonetically similar (or, specifically, to a 9th century
Anglo-Saxon ear) I am not certain. Unfortunately, I see no
9th or 10th century examples that would bear directly on the
matter.
Cheers,
John
NOTES
[1] W. G. Searle, Onomasticon Ango-Saxonicum (Cambridge:
Cambridge Univ. Press, 1897), pp. 393, 402.
-
Peter Stewart
Re: The origins of Redburh or Rædburh (a conjecture)
<Therav3@aol.com> wrote in message news:56f.4cbeff3.3232e03f@aol.com...
I must be missing something - an entire post perhaps.
All I can find in your reply yesterday is:
"...using the text without additional inference we should be looking at
Charlemagne or Louis le Debonair. [para] My point: that Louis makes better
sense, chronologically, and his wife was a daughter of Count Ingram.
Ruodburga, or Redburh, makes a nice fit."
Taking the text without additional inference to indicate either Charlemagne
or his son Louis involves narrowing down the chronology to before late 813,
otherwise you must add an additional inference that the author for some
unknown reason wrote of a "king" when he meant an emperor, "of the Franks"
when he meant of the Romans. Charlemange was emperor from December 800,
Louis from August/September 813. Within this timeframe, until July 810
Charlemagne's elder son Pippin was still living, a king and a Frank although
king of the Lombards. If the author in England must be inferred to have
overlooked the higher title of either Charlemagne or Louis, why not the
territorial title of Pippin? The last had a son by a lady name Chrothais,
closely related Adalhard and Wala, abbots of Corbie. Why could she not have
had a sister name Chrotburgis?
It would also bear directly on the matter if you could find any female in
the Robertian lineage who has a name beginning with "Rod-". "Rodbeorht" is
far from "Rædbert" (it is only the first syllable that matters here, of
course).
So far we have absolutely nothing except an impression, without support from
onomastics, linguistics or circumstances, to direct the search in this
particular direction.
Peter Stewart
Friday, 8 September, 2006
Dear Peter,
Thanks for your reply yesterday to my post.
My reply of yesterday, concerning the rationale for the
placement of Rædburh in the family of Count Ingram, addressed
(on chronological and other grounds) the questions you raised
concerning my placement of her in "just one family with royal
links using names with the "Chrod-" element", i.e. that of Count
Ingram.
I must be missing something - an entire post perhaps.
All I can find in your reply yesterday is:
"...using the text without additional inference we should be looking at
Charlemagne or Louis le Debonair. [para] My point: that Louis makes better
sense, chronologically, and his wife was a daughter of Count Ingram.
Ruodburga, or Redburh, makes a nice fit."
Taking the text without additional inference to indicate either Charlemagne
or his son Louis involves narrowing down the chronology to before late 813,
otherwise you must add an additional inference that the author for some
unknown reason wrote of a "king" when he meant an emperor, "of the Franks"
when he meant of the Romans. Charlemange was emperor from December 800,
Louis from August/September 813. Within this timeframe, until July 810
Charlemagne's elder son Pippin was still living, a king and a Frank although
king of the Lombards. If the author in England must be inferred to have
overlooked the higher title of either Charlemagne or Louis, why not the
territorial title of Pippin? The last had a son by a lady name Chrothais,
closely related Adalhard and Wala, abbots of Corbie. Why could she not have
had a sister name Chrotburgis?
As to your first question:
" For starters, if Rædburh is supposed to be possibly an
Anglo-Saxon rendering of Ruodburga, are there examples of
the name of any Frankish duke, king or other called Ruodbert
becoming "Rædbert" across the Channel?"
There is one early example of Rædbert, that of Eorpwald, son
of Rædbert, a king in East Anglia, who apparently converted to
Christianity in the early 7th century. This is obviously not a
Frankish example, but does indicate that the name Rædbert did in
fact exist before the time of Egbert and Rædburh. The only
subsequent examples I note of a (possibly) pertinent cross-channel
name change are 11th century, where we have assorted Roberts
(including dukes of Normandy) being called Rodbeorht in
Anglo-Saxon records, ca. 1050 and later [1].
To what extent Rædbert and Rodbeorht may, or may not, be
phonetically similar (or, specifically, to a 9th century
Anglo-Saxon ear) I am not certain. Unfortunately, I see no
9th or 10th century examples that would bear directly on the
matter
It would also bear directly on the matter if you could find any female in
the Robertian lineage who has a name beginning with "Rod-". "Rodbeorht" is
far from "Rædbert" (it is only the first syllable that matters here, of
course).
So far we have absolutely nothing except an impression, without support from
onomastics, linguistics or circumstances, to direct the search in this
particular direction.
Peter Stewart
-
Gjest
Re: Cony of Bassingthorpe not bourne
In a message dated 9/8/06 5:58:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time, WJhonson@aol.com
writes:
<< Richard was the son, per this source of Thomas Cony of Bassingbourne, by
his
wife Alice Leigh dau of Thomas Leigh, Lord Mayor of London in 1558, which I
already had and so could agree on this point. >>
This of course should be corrected to BassingTHORPE
Will
writes:
<< Richard was the son, per this source of Thomas Cony of Bassingbourne, by
his
wife Alice Leigh dau of Thomas Leigh, Lord Mayor of London in 1558, which I
already had and so could agree on this point. >>
This of course should be corrected to BassingTHORPE
Will
-
Gjest
Philip of England? Was: CP Correction: Helisant 'du Perche'
Here is the discussion by Alison Weir on the topic of this possible son
in "Eleanor of Aquitaine" (pp 160-161)
[the context is that King Henry II is abroad in Poitiers during the
summer of 1161]
QUOTE
Eleanor had remained in Normandy. She was pregnant again, and at
Domfront Castle in September 1161, gave birth to her second daughter by
Henry, who was named Eleanor in her honour and baptised by Cardinal
Henry of Pisa; Robert of Torigni was her godfather. Three years had
elapsed since Eleanor's previous child had been born, and historians
have conjectured why, after bearing four children in as many years,
there was such a gap. It may have occurred because, having presented
Henry with three healthy sons in quick succession, Eleanor felt she
deserved a rest from childbearing. She may simply not have conceived.
Or, as several writers have suggested, she may have had a child whose
birth and early death were not recorded by the chroniclers.
John Speed, the English antiquarian whose "History of Great Britain"
was published in 1611, had access to sources now lost to us, and he
records that Henry and Eleanor had a son named Philip, who was born
between 1158 and 1162, but died young. Yet Francis Sandford, a
genealogist who at the end of the seventeenth century made a detailed
study of the royal line, does not mention him. It is possible that he
existed: mediaeval chroniclers did not always mention royal infants who
died young. Although William, Count of Poitiers, died at the age of
three, he was his father's first born heir and therefore worthy of
note, but a fifth son who died young might have been considered
relatively unimportant. However, the dates of birth of all Eleanor's
other children by Henry are recorded - even the birth of her last
child, John, who is usually accounted her fifth son. Moreover, the
name Philip was an unusual choice, favoured by the French royal line,
but never having been used by the forebears of Henry and Eleanor.
Neither, however, had the name John been used. The name Philip could,
of course, have been chosen as a compliment to Louis [King of France
and Eleanor's first husband], but surely his own name would have been
more appropriate. Since evidence for this prince's existence is found
only in much later sources and the circumstantial evidence is
inconclusive, none of it should be relied upon.
ENDQUOTE
Bruce Hallowell
Peter Stewart wrote:
in "Eleanor of Aquitaine" (pp 160-161)
[the context is that King Henry II is abroad in Poitiers during the
summer of 1161]
QUOTE
Eleanor had remained in Normandy. She was pregnant again, and at
Domfront Castle in September 1161, gave birth to her second daughter by
Henry, who was named Eleanor in her honour and baptised by Cardinal
Henry of Pisa; Robert of Torigni was her godfather. Three years had
elapsed since Eleanor's previous child had been born, and historians
have conjectured why, after bearing four children in as many years,
there was such a gap. It may have occurred because, having presented
Henry with three healthy sons in quick succession, Eleanor felt she
deserved a rest from childbearing. She may simply not have conceived.
Or, as several writers have suggested, she may have had a child whose
birth and early death were not recorded by the chroniclers.
John Speed, the English antiquarian whose "History of Great Britain"
was published in 1611, had access to sources now lost to us, and he
records that Henry and Eleanor had a son named Philip, who was born
between 1158 and 1162, but died young. Yet Francis Sandford, a
genealogist who at the end of the seventeenth century made a detailed
study of the royal line, does not mention him. It is possible that he
existed: mediaeval chroniclers did not always mention royal infants who
died young. Although William, Count of Poitiers, died at the age of
three, he was his father's first born heir and therefore worthy of
note, but a fifth son who died young might have been considered
relatively unimportant. However, the dates of birth of all Eleanor's
other children by Henry are recorded - even the birth of her last
child, John, who is usually accounted her fifth son. Moreover, the
name Philip was an unusual choice, favoured by the French royal line,
but never having been used by the forebears of Henry and Eleanor.
Neither, however, had the name John been used. The name Philip could,
of course, have been chosen as a compliment to Louis [King of France
and Eleanor's first husband], but surely his own name would have been
more appropriate. Since evidence for this prince's existence is found
only in much later sources and the circumstantial evidence is
inconclusive, none of it should be relied upon.
ENDQUOTE
Bruce Hallowell
Peter Stewart wrote:
WJhonson@aol.com> wrote in message news:239.a559180.3231e61a@aol.com...
In a message dated 9/7/06 5:18:43 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
Therav3@aol.com
writes:
Children: William (1153-<1156)
Henry (1155-1183), 'the Young King'
Matilda (<1156-1189)
Richard 'Coeur-de Lion' (1157-1199), King of England
Geoffrey (1158-1186), Duke of Brittany
Eleanor (1162-1214), m. Alfonso VIII of Castile
Joan (1165-1199), m. William of Sicily
John 'Lackland' (1167-1216), King of England
And "Philip" born 1163/4 died "as an infant"
According to Andrew Lewis there was a son born 1160/1 or 1163/4 who died in
infancy, but as far as I know there is no warrant for naming him Philip -
see The Birth and Childhood of King John: Some Revisions, _Eleanor of
Aquitaine: Lord and Lady_, edited by John Carmi Parsons & Bonnie Wheeler
(New York & Basingstoke, 2002) p. 161 and n. 10.
Peter Stewart
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Philip of England? Was: CP Correction: Helisant 'du Per
<hallowellb@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1157775725.367582.267280@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
Not quite. Needless to say, Andrew Lewis was not relying on Alison Weir or
on 17th-century accounts but on a contemporary source that as he noted was
well-placed to know about the matter. This is Ralph de Diceto, dean of St
Paul's, who recorded that Henry had six sons by Alienor of Aquitaine, two of
whom died in childhood ("Henricus rex Anglorum...ex legitimo matrimonio sex
filios sustulit...Ex filiis autem duobus in pueritia sublatis de medio").
The known sons were William, who died aged 3, and Henry, Richard, Geoffrey
and John who all survived to adulthood.
As I said, no warrant is given for naming the otherwise unknown son Philip,
yet the above is good evidence that such a child existed. (In dynastic
terms, the most likely names I suppose would be either Fulk from the Angevin
ancestry or Robert from the Norman - the only known Philip in this family
was a bastard in the next generation).
Lewis took "pueritia", meaning boyhood, to imply that this reference was not
to a twin who had died at birth or as an infant, but to a son born from a
separate pregnancy that could only have come to term in 1160/1 or 1163/4.
Peter Stewart
news:1157775725.367582.267280@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
Here is the discussion by Alison Weir on the topic of this possible son
in "Eleanor of Aquitaine" (pp 160-161)
[the context is that King Henry II is abroad in Poitiers during the
summer of 1161]
QUOTE
Eleanor had remained in Normandy. She was pregnant again, and at
Domfront Castle in September 1161, gave birth to her second daughter by
Henry, who was named Eleanor in her honour and baptised by Cardinal
Henry of Pisa; Robert of Torigni was her godfather. Three years had
elapsed since Eleanor's previous child had been born, and historians
have conjectured why, after bearing four children in as many years,
there was such a gap. It may have occurred because, having presented
Henry with three healthy sons in quick succession, Eleanor felt she
deserved a rest from childbearing. She may simply not have conceived.
Or, as several writers have suggested, she may have had a child whose
birth and early death were not recorded by the chroniclers.
Not quite. Needless to say, Andrew Lewis was not relying on Alison Weir or
on 17th-century accounts but on a contemporary source that as he noted was
well-placed to know about the matter. This is Ralph de Diceto, dean of St
Paul's, who recorded that Henry had six sons by Alienor of Aquitaine, two of
whom died in childhood ("Henricus rex Anglorum...ex legitimo matrimonio sex
filios sustulit...Ex filiis autem duobus in pueritia sublatis de medio").
The known sons were William, who died aged 3, and Henry, Richard, Geoffrey
and John who all survived to adulthood.
As I said, no warrant is given for naming the otherwise unknown son Philip,
yet the above is good evidence that such a child existed. (In dynastic
terms, the most likely names I suppose would be either Fulk from the Angevin
ancestry or Robert from the Norman - the only known Philip in this family
was a bastard in the next generation).
Lewis took "pueritia", meaning boyhood, to imply that this reference was not
to a twin who had died at birth or as an infant, but to a son born from a
separate pregnancy that could only have come to term in 1160/1 or 1163/4.
Peter Stewart
-
Patricia Junkin
Re: Kendal/Lancaster/Samlesbury
Paul,
I have a Cospatric and a Gospatrick.
Under Cospatrick:
Appleby and Burgh taken and Cospatric son of Horm was Constable . 164;
Cospatric was earl of Lothian p. 108: The Annals of the Reign of Malcolm and
William, Kings of Scotland A. D. 1153-1214. Sir Archibald Lawrie. James
MacLehose & Sons. 1910. p. 369.
1119 Thomas son of Cospatric by his charter without date (which was about
the year 1119, in the 20 Hen I.,) gave to God and St. Mary Magdalene and the
canons of Preston of the order of the Praemonstratenses, a portion of his
lands at Preston in Kendal, to build a mansion for the said canons. The
abbey of Shap was transferred hither from Preston in Kendale. Thomas died
Dec. 7, 1152 and was buried in the abbey. Thomas son of the said Thomas
confirmed his father¹s grants. Which Thomas, son of Thomas married a sister,
as it seemeth of the ³first² Robert de Veteriponte. For after the death of
this Thomas son of Thomas, his widow Johanna de Veteripont gave nine acres
of land in the vill of Heppe to the abbot and canons of the vale of
Magdalene in Heppe.
The History and Antiquities of the Counties of Westmoreland and Cumberland.
I do not think these men are the same.
Pat
----------
I have a Cospatric and a Gospatrick.
Under Cospatrick:
Appleby and Burgh taken and Cospatric son of Horm was Constable . 164;
Cospatric was earl of Lothian p. 108: The Annals of the Reign of Malcolm and
William, Kings of Scotland A. D. 1153-1214. Sir Archibald Lawrie. James
MacLehose & Sons. 1910. p. 369.
1119 Thomas son of Cospatric by his charter without date (which was about
the year 1119, in the 20 Hen I.,) gave to God and St. Mary Magdalene and the
canons of Preston of the order of the Praemonstratenses, a portion of his
lands at Preston in Kendal, to build a mansion for the said canons. The
abbey of Shap was transferred hither from Preston in Kendale. Thomas died
Dec. 7, 1152 and was buried in the abbey. Thomas son of the said Thomas
confirmed his father¹s grants. Which Thomas, son of Thomas married a sister,
as it seemeth of the ³first² Robert de Veteriponte. For after the death of
this Thomas son of Thomas, his widow Johanna de Veteripont gave nine acres
of land in the vill of Heppe to the abbot and canons of the vale of
Magdalene in Heppe.
The History and Antiquities of the Counties of Westmoreland and Cumberland.
I do not think these men are the same.
Pat
----------
From: paul bulkley <designeconomic@yahoo.com
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Kendal/Lancaster/Samlesbury
Date: Sat, 9, 2006, 12:18 PM
I have reviewed some rather conflicting information
regarding Gospatrick (son) Orm Kendal. The following
appears correct:
Gospatrick (son) Orm (son) Ketel born 1110 died 1179.
married Egeline de Engaine
children: Thomas of Workington - married Grace
(ancestors of the Curwin family)
Gospatrick inherited Manor of Seaton. Subsequently
obtained estates of Workington and High Ireby through
an exchange of property with cousin William of
Lancaster subject to rent.
1174: Gospatrick surrendered Appleby Castle to William
King of Scotland.
1175/76: King Henry 11, no doubt irritated, fined
Gospatrick 500 M.
Has anyone information or sources of information
addressing the following:
1. Gospatrick die in Workington or Samlesbury?
2. Gospatrick have other children in addition to
Thomas?
3. The 500 M fine was quite substantial. Did King
Henry 11 receive cash or did he seize property?
Anyone interested in the north of England should refer
to the following texts:
Lancashire Pipe Rolls and Early Charters (Farrer)
Land of the Cumbria (Adams)
Whalley Coucher
Paul Bulkley
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
-
Steve Barnhoorn
Re: The origins of Redburh or Rædburh (a conjecture)
In what Anglo Saxon records [be it charters and/or chronicles] does the
name Redburh or Rædburh appear? I noticed it was not written anywhere
in the Anglo Saxon Chronicle or Asser's biography of Alfred the Great.
Does anyone have any idea of any contemporaneous source?
name Redburh or Rædburh appear? I noticed it was not written anywhere
in the Anglo Saxon Chronicle or Asser's biography of Alfred the Great.
Does anyone have any idea of any contemporaneous source?
-
Ginny Wagner
RE: The origins of Redburh or Rædburh (a conjecture)
Steve Barnhoorn wrote:
Possibly you should be looking for Burhred ... I've listed
some webpages that give a Redburh (cited at 241.
Montague-Smith, Royal Line of Succession, p. 28.) then later
we find a Burhred.
If I understand it properly, Redburh was a female, sister of
Mercian king Alfred the Great, then later down the Saxon
line, came Burhred who was the last Saxon king of Mercia,
routed by the Danes and is mentioned in the Anglo Saxon
Chronicles between 768 and 964AD as well as the Gesta Albini
(of St. Albans, Matthew Paris). Around the early 12c,
another Burhred appears in Talbot's translation of the Vitae
of Christina of Markyate.
Page 171 of Keats-Rohan's Domesay People had a Buered, a
Domesday tenant of Robert de Tosny of Stafford. His lands
were held in 1166 by Geoffrey of Coppenhall. Ulger of
Coppenhall occurs c. 1140 (Hist. Coll. Staffs., i. 181,
240-3). i., fol. 249c; i, fol. 249c.
http://members.aol.com/davidwilma/famil ... HTM#subj20
0000000
or tinyurl: http://tinyurl.com/kt8ek
..4E+9. Alpin; King of Scotland, founder of the House of
Alpin; d. 834.241
Known children of Alpin and an unknown spouse were:
..2E+9. i. Kenneth MacAlpin I.
Known children of Egbert and Redburh (see #.4E+9) were as
follows:
..2E+9. i. Ethelwulf.
ii. Athelstan; Under-King of Kent, 839-850.
Known children of Oslac and an unknown spouse were:
..2E+9. i. Osburh.
AND
Generation Twenty-Eight
..2E+9. Kenneth MacAlpin I (Alpin , #.4E+9); King of
Scotland, 839-860.
Known children of Kenneth MacAlpin I and an unknown spouse
were:
..1E+9. i. Constantine II.
Known children of Ethelwulf and Osburh (see #.2E+9) were as
follows:
..1E+9. i. Alfred The Great.
ii. Athelstan.
iii. Ethelbald; King of England 858-860; m. Judith his
stepmother.238
iv. Ethelbert; King of England, 860-866 and Under-King of
Kent, 858-860.
v. Ethelbert; King of England, 866-871.
vi. Ethelswith; m. Brughred;239 d. 888.240
Known children of Ethelred Mucel and Edburh (see #.2E+9)
were:
..1E+9. i. Ealhswith.
at http://www.stirnet.com/HTML/genie/ancie ... xons03.htm
or tinyurl: http://tinyurl.com/fmrha
[with sources listed as The Royal Line of Sucession and
others at the bottom of the page.]
Redburh, sister of king of franks, possibly Charlemagne so
possibly daughter of Pepin the Short, king of the Franks.
who married Egbert, King of Wessex (806-857), son of
Ealhmund, underking of Kent (a 786)
later on the page we find a Burhred:
There was a Burhred who was king of Mercia, married to
Aethelswith (sister of Alfred the Great), was expelled by
the Danes and died in Rome ca. 873. In the Gesta Albini,
Vol. 1, pg 408, Matthaei Parisiensis: Rex Burhredus Romam
profectus obiit ibidem anno domini DCCCLXXIV. He also
occurs in the Anglo Saxon Chronicles ca. 854 and later.
From The Coming of the Vikings at
http://www.roman-britain.org/chase/_vikings.htm
Burhred became king of Mercia in 852 and was witness (among
others) to an agreement between abbot Ceolred of Medhamsted
and Wulfred, possibly an East-Anglian nobleman. The
following year, assisted by king Æthelwulf of Wessex,
Burhred reduced the population of North Wales, later that
year cementing the Mercia-Wessex alliance by marrying
Æthelwulf's daughter; the same year, his new brother-in-law
prince Ælfred was sent by his father Æthelwulf to be
educated in Rome. In 868 Burhred applied to Æthelwulf for
aid against a Danish army which had taken the Mercian town
of Nottingham. He was unable to retake the town, and he held
an unsteady peace with the Danes throughout that winter. The
following year, the Danish army withdrew back to their
capital at Jorvik (York), but the year after that they again
plundered their way south through Mercia, destroying the
Abbey at Medhamsted and taking the town of Thetford, slaying
king Edmund of the East Angles that winter. Burhred made
other peace treaties with the Danes in 872 and 873, but was
finally expelled from his capital at Tamworth in 874,
whereupon he escaped to Rome. The Danes, in the meantime,
gave the government of Mercia into the hands of the Thane
Ceolwulf. Burhred died in exile at Rome and was buried there
in the church of Sancta Maria.
Burhred was effectively the last monarch of the Anglic
kingdom of Mercia, those who followed were descended mainly
from the royal house of Wessex, who treated Mercia as a
petty province within their own Anglish dominion.
Re Talbot's Christina of Markyate:
And in the story of Christina of Markyate, b. ca. 1100:
The bishop [Ralph Flambard], enraged at being deluded by a
mere girl, determined to have his revenge. About 1115 he
persuaded her parents to give her in marriage to a friend of
his named Burhred, ...
hth, Ginny Wagner
In what Anglo Saxon records [be it charters and/or
chronicles] does the
name Redburh or Rædburh appear? I noticed it was
not written anywhere
in the Anglo Saxon Chronicle or Asser's biography
of Alfred the Great.
Does anyone have any idea of any contemporaneous source?
Possibly you should be looking for Burhred ... I've listed
some webpages that give a Redburh (cited at 241.
Montague-Smith, Royal Line of Succession, p. 28.) then later
we find a Burhred.
If I understand it properly, Redburh was a female, sister of
Mercian king Alfred the Great, then later down the Saxon
line, came Burhred who was the last Saxon king of Mercia,
routed by the Danes and is mentioned in the Anglo Saxon
Chronicles between 768 and 964AD as well as the Gesta Albini
(of St. Albans, Matthew Paris). Around the early 12c,
another Burhred appears in Talbot's translation of the Vitae
of Christina of Markyate.
Page 171 of Keats-Rohan's Domesay People had a Buered, a
Domesday tenant of Robert de Tosny of Stafford. His lands
were held in 1166 by Geoffrey of Coppenhall. Ulger of
Coppenhall occurs c. 1140 (Hist. Coll. Staffs., i. 181,
240-3). i., fol. 249c; i, fol. 249c.
http://members.aol.com/davidwilma/famil ... HTM#subj20
0000000
or tinyurl: http://tinyurl.com/kt8ek
..4E+9. Alpin; King of Scotland, founder of the House of
Alpin; d. 834.241
Known children of Alpin and an unknown spouse were:
..2E+9. i. Kenneth MacAlpin I.
Known children of Egbert and Redburh (see #.4E+9) were as
follows:
..2E+9. i. Ethelwulf.
ii. Athelstan; Under-King of Kent, 839-850.
Known children of Oslac and an unknown spouse were:
..2E+9. i. Osburh.
AND
Generation Twenty-Eight
..2E+9. Kenneth MacAlpin I (Alpin , #.4E+9); King of
Scotland, 839-860.
Known children of Kenneth MacAlpin I and an unknown spouse
were:
..1E+9. i. Constantine II.
Known children of Ethelwulf and Osburh (see #.2E+9) were as
follows:
..1E+9. i. Alfred The Great.
ii. Athelstan.
iii. Ethelbald; King of England 858-860; m. Judith his
stepmother.238
iv. Ethelbert; King of England, 860-866 and Under-King of
Kent, 858-860.
v. Ethelbert; King of England, 866-871.
vi. Ethelswith; m. Brughred;239 d. 888.240
Known children of Ethelred Mucel and Edburh (see #.2E+9)
were:
..1E+9. i. Ealhswith.
at http://www.stirnet.com/HTML/genie/ancie ... xons03.htm
or tinyurl: http://tinyurl.com/fmrha
[with sources listed as The Royal Line of Sucession and
others at the bottom of the page.]
Redburh, sister of king of franks, possibly Charlemagne so
possibly daughter of Pepin the Short, king of the Franks.
who married Egbert, King of Wessex (806-857), son of
Ealhmund, underking of Kent (a 786)
later on the page we find a Burhred:
There was a Burhred who was king of Mercia, married to
Aethelswith (sister of Alfred the Great), was expelled by
the Danes and died in Rome ca. 873. In the Gesta Albini,
Vol. 1, pg 408, Matthaei Parisiensis: Rex Burhredus Romam
profectus obiit ibidem anno domini DCCCLXXIV. He also
occurs in the Anglo Saxon Chronicles ca. 854 and later.
From The Coming of the Vikings at
http://www.roman-britain.org/chase/_vikings.htm
Burhred became king of Mercia in 852 and was witness (among
others) to an agreement between abbot Ceolred of Medhamsted
and Wulfred, possibly an East-Anglian nobleman. The
following year, assisted by king Æthelwulf of Wessex,
Burhred reduced the population of North Wales, later that
year cementing the Mercia-Wessex alliance by marrying
Æthelwulf's daughter; the same year, his new brother-in-law
prince Ælfred was sent by his father Æthelwulf to be
educated in Rome. In 868 Burhred applied to Æthelwulf for
aid against a Danish army which had taken the Mercian town
of Nottingham. He was unable to retake the town, and he held
an unsteady peace with the Danes throughout that winter. The
following year, the Danish army withdrew back to their
capital at Jorvik (York), but the year after that they again
plundered their way south through Mercia, destroying the
Abbey at Medhamsted and taking the town of Thetford, slaying
king Edmund of the East Angles that winter. Burhred made
other peace treaties with the Danes in 872 and 873, but was
finally expelled from his capital at Tamworth in 874,
whereupon he escaped to Rome. The Danes, in the meantime,
gave the government of Mercia into the hands of the Thane
Ceolwulf. Burhred died in exile at Rome and was buried there
in the church of Sancta Maria.
Burhred was effectively the last monarch of the Anglic
kingdom of Mercia, those who followed were descended mainly
from the royal house of Wessex, who treated Mercia as a
petty province within their own Anglish dominion.
Re Talbot's Christina of Markyate:
And in the story of Christina of Markyate, b. ca. 1100:
The bishop [Ralph Flambard], enraged at being deluded by a
mere girl, determined to have his revenge. About 1115 he
persuaded her parents to give her in marriage to a friend of
his named Burhred, ...
hth, Ginny Wagner
-
Gjest
Re: Kendal/Lancaster/Samlesbury
Good Evening Paul,
I was wondering if you had seen the flurry of earlier postings on the
Lancasters and Gospatricks and Ketel connections etc., from last
winter? Hoo boy... a can or worms!!!
A lot of conflicting data. Best o' luck
Best Regards,
Emmett L. Butler
"Patricia Junkin" wrote:
I was wondering if you had seen the flurry of earlier postings on the
Lancasters and Gospatricks and Ketel connections etc., from last
winter? Hoo boy... a can or worms!!!
A lot of conflicting data. Best o' luck
Best Regards,
Emmett L. Butler
"Patricia Junkin" wrote:
Paul,
I have a Cospatric and a Gospatrick.
Under Cospatrick:
Appleby and Burgh taken and Cospatric son of Horm was Constable . 164;
Cospatric was earl of Lothian p. 108: The Annals of the Reign of Malcolm and
William, Kings of Scotland A. D. 1153-1214. Sir Archibald Lawrie. James
MacLehose & Sons. 1910. p. 369.
1119 Thomas son of Cospatric by his charter without date (which was about
the year 1119, in the 20 Hen I.,) gave to God and St. Mary Magdalene and the
canons of Preston of the order of the Praemonstratenses, a portion of his
lands at Preston in Kendal, to build a mansion for the said canons. The
abbey of Shap was transferred hither from Preston in Kendale. Thomas died
Dec. 7, 1152 and was buried in the abbey. Thomas son of the said Thomas
confirmed his father¹s grants. Which Thomas, son of Thomas married a sister,
as it seemeth of the ³first² Robert de Veteriponte. For after the death of
this Thomas son of Thomas, his widow Johanna de Veteripont gave nine acres
of land in the vill of Heppe to the abbot and canons of the vale of
Magdalene in Heppe.
The History and Antiquities of the Counties of Westmoreland and Cumberland.
I do not think these men are the same.
Pat
----------
From: paul bulkley <designeconomic@yahoo.com
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Kendal/Lancaster/Samlesbury
Date: Sat, 9, 2006, 12:18 PM
I have reviewed some rather conflicting information
regarding Gospatrick (son) Orm Kendal. The following
appears correct:
Gospatrick (son) Orm (son) Ketel born 1110 died 1179.
married Egeline de Engaine
children: Thomas of Workington - married Grace
(ancestors of the Curwin family)
Gospatrick inherited Manor of Seaton. Subsequently
obtained estates of Workington and High Ireby through
an exchange of property with cousin William of
Lancaster subject to rent.
1174: Gospatrick surrendered Appleby Castle to William
King of Scotland.
1175/76: King Henry 11, no doubt irritated, fined
Gospatrick 500 M.
Has anyone information or sources of information
addressing the following:
1. Gospatrick die in Workington or Samlesbury?
2. Gospatrick have other children in addition to
Thomas?
3. The 500 M fine was quite substantial. Did King
Henry 11 receive cash or did he seize property?
Anyone interested in the north of England should refer
to the following texts:
Lancashire Pipe Rolls and Early Charters (Farrer)
Land of the Cumbria (Adams)
Whalley Coucher
Paul Bulkley
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
-
Gjest
Re: Cony of Bassingbourne
In a message dated 9/9/06 1:44:38 AM Pacific Daylight Time, roconnor@es.co.nz
writes:
<< Are you aware that the Haringtons possess a number of royal descents? >>
For Eleanor's great-grandparents I have
8 Sir John Harrington, Knt of Exton, co Rutland d 5 Nov 1524
9 Alice Sothill
10 John Boys of Bourne
11 Alice Walbeef d bet 7 Jan 1534 / 30 Jan 1534 (both dates 1533/4)
I only have further ancestors for the Harrington's at the moment. I'd be
interested in further ancestors of the other 3 surnames. Also I have nothing on
the WINTER family that Rose is supposed to be connected with.
Thanks
Will
writes:
<< Are you aware that the Haringtons possess a number of royal descents? >>
For Eleanor's great-grandparents I have
8 Sir John Harrington, Knt of Exton, co Rutland d 5 Nov 1524
9 Alice Sothill
10 John Boys of Bourne
11 Alice Walbeef d bet 7 Jan 1534 / 30 Jan 1534 (both dates 1533/4)
I only have further ancestors for the Harrington's at the moment. I'd be
interested in further ancestors of the other 3 surnames. Also I have nothing on
the WINTER family that Rose is supposed to be connected with.
Thanks
Will
-
Gjest
Re: Cony of Bassingbourne
In a message dated 9/9/06 7:57:26 PM Central Daylight Time, WJhonson@aol.com
writes:
<< Are you aware that the Haringtons possess a number of royal descents? >>
Are the names Harington and Arington/Arrington just variations on the same
family name?
Jno
writes:
<< Are you aware that the Haringtons possess a number of royal descents? >>
Are the names Harington and Arington/Arrington just variations on the same
family name?
Jno
-
Robert O'Connor
Re: Cony of Bassingbourne
<JKent10581@aol.com> wrote in message news:c16.404fa0a.3234be2d@aol.com...
I have nothing to suggest so.
Robert O'Connor
In a message dated 9/9/06 7:57:26 PM Central Daylight Time,
WJhonson@aol.com
writes:
Are you aware that the Haringtons possess a number of royal descents?
Are the names Harington and Arington/Arrington just variations on the same
family name?
I have nothing to suggest so.
Robert O'Connor
-
Gjest
Re: 100 leading persons of Elizabethan England
I'm looking for a type of "biographical/genealogical dictionary" that would
give me the leading persons who were active during the Elizabethan period.
I'm looking for a work, that would be basically a biographical dictionary or
encyclopaedia if you will, limited to this period (or perhaps a little more)
and also limited to a small number of persons.
Doesn't have to be 100, could be 200 or 300 or 50. Although I *could*
create my own such work by going through DNB or tudorplace.com.ar I was hoping
there was already a print work of this sort of thing, more specific to what I'm
looking for.
I did find something *almost* what I'm interested in, but although it gave
biographical details, it did *not* give things like parents, spouses, children,
which makes it useful, but not so much. Also I'm not really as interested
in their twelth descendents, or only those who had living descendents, but
rather, those who were actually *somebody* during this time period, and *all* of
them. That is, I'm not interested in a work that only lists the
*somebodies* if they have living descendents, or descendents who lived in the
nineteenth century.
So does anyone know of a work, current or past, of this sort ?
Thanks
Will Johnson
give me the leading persons who were active during the Elizabethan period.
I'm looking for a work, that would be basically a biographical dictionary or
encyclopaedia if you will, limited to this period (or perhaps a little more)
and also limited to a small number of persons.
Doesn't have to be 100, could be 200 or 300 or 50. Although I *could*
create my own such work by going through DNB or tudorplace.com.ar I was hoping
there was already a print work of this sort of thing, more specific to what I'm
looking for.
I did find something *almost* what I'm interested in, but although it gave
biographical details, it did *not* give things like parents, spouses, children,
which makes it useful, but not so much. Also I'm not really as interested
in their twelth descendents, or only those who had living descendents, but
rather, those who were actually *somebody* during this time period, and *all* of
them. That is, I'm not interested in a work that only lists the
*somebodies* if they have living descendents, or descendents who lived in the
nineteenth century.
So does anyone know of a work, current or past, of this sort ?
Thanks
Will Johnson
-
Leo van de Pas
Re: 100 leading persons of Elizabethan England
Dear Will,
There is series of books called Who's Who in British History.
It is subdivided into periods
Who is Who in
-Roman Britain and Anglo-Saxon England
-Early Medieval England
-Late Medieval England
-Tudor England
-Stuart Britain
-Early Hanoverian Britain
-Late Hanoverian Britain
-Victorian Britain
I have the Early Medieval one, "First published in North America in 2001 by
Stackpole Books,
5067 Ritter Road
Mechanicsburg, PA 17055
http://www.stackpolebooks.com
My volume, and therefor I presume the whole collection, is mainly
biographical and my volume is pretty good in detail.
Hope this helps.
Leo
----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, September 11, 2006 2:58 PM
Subject: Re: 100 leading persons of Elizabethan England
There is series of books called Who's Who in British History.
It is subdivided into periods
Who is Who in
-Roman Britain and Anglo-Saxon England
-Early Medieval England
-Late Medieval England
-Tudor England
-Stuart Britain
-Early Hanoverian Britain
-Late Hanoverian Britain
-Victorian Britain
I have the Early Medieval one, "First published in North America in 2001 by
Stackpole Books,
5067 Ritter Road
Mechanicsburg, PA 17055
http://www.stackpolebooks.com
My volume, and therefor I presume the whole collection, is mainly
biographical and my volume is pretty good in detail.
Hope this helps.
Leo
----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, September 11, 2006 2:58 PM
Subject: Re: 100 leading persons of Elizabethan England
I'm looking for a type of "biographical/genealogical dictionary" that
would
give me the leading persons who were active during the Elizabethan period.
I'm looking for a work, that would be basically a biographical dictionary
or
encyclopaedia if you will, limited to this period (or perhaps a little
more)
and also limited to a small number of persons.
Doesn't have to be 100, could be 200 or 300 or 50. Although I *could*
create my own such work by going through DNB or tudorplace.com.ar I was
hoping
there was already a print work of this sort of thing, more specific to
what I'm
looking for.
I did find something *almost* what I'm interested in, but although it gave
biographical details, it did *not* give things like parents, spouses,
children,
which makes it useful, but not so much. Also I'm not really as interested
in their twelth descendents, or only those who had living descendents, but
rather, those who were actually *somebody* during this time period, and
*all* of
them. That is, I'm not interested in a work that only lists the
*somebodies* if they have living descendents, or descendents who lived in
the
nineteenth century.
So does anyone know of a work, current or past, of this sort ?
Thanks
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: Beseby, soke of Wautham
If she was the latter widow of Henry FitzRoy, why in 1249 did she still call
herself "Champernowne" after her first husband?
herself "Champernowne" after her first husband?
-
Martin
Re: McLaughlin's Weird, Neurotic Fixation On Foxes & Fox Hun
"D. Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8A%Hg.350$15.4189@eagle.america.net...
No my dear David, missed by a mile as always....
Your pathetic attempts to stir up trouble (between the splendid folk you see as
your 'enemies') will only meet with the derision they deserves.
We have discussed fox hunting... we know where we stand, and who stands where...
we know we will never agree... we respect each others opinion and remain
friends.
A bitter, twisted old fruit like yourself could hardly be expected to
understand, but even so, you should try sometime? It might possibly lead to
someone liking you.... though I'll not be holding my breath.
Besides, why foxes should concern the likes of you, I have no idea? I believe
they are not native to Hawaii. If I am wrong about this, please feel free to buy
some hunting pink and a horse, and ride on!
Cheers
Martin
news:8A%Hg.350$15.4189@eagle.america.net...
On Target
No my dear David, missed by a mile as always....
Your pathetic attempts to stir up trouble (between the splendid folk you see as
your 'enemies') will only meet with the derision they deserves.
We have discussed fox hunting... we know where we stand, and who stands where...
we know we will never agree... we respect each others opinion and remain
friends.
A bitter, twisted old fruit like yourself could hardly be expected to
understand, but even so, you should try sometime? It might possibly lead to
someone liking you.... though I'll not be holding my breath.
Besides, why foxes should concern the likes of you, I have no idea? I believe
they are not native to Hawaii. If I am wrong about this, please feel free to buy
some hunting pink and a horse, and ride on!
Cheers
Martin
" Jill" <news@NOSPAMkintaline.co.uk> wrote in message
news:44f08182$0$3224$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader01.plus.net...
Ye Old One wrote:
On Sat, 26 Aug 2006 14:34:07 +1000, "Farm1" <please@askifyouwannaknow
What is interesting is that there has been no increase in those sorts
of attacks since hunting was banned. I find that very telling.
Yes there has
I sell electric netting to protect poultry -- there have definately been
more attacks
There are more areas where birds have ranged perfectly safely for years
which have been seeing more and more daylight attacks
This will get much worse in the future as the population of foxes declines
in health.
I have also done research in the past on the diet of foxes taken by hunts
and compared that with road kill and other deaths.
My clear observations were that the hunt foxes [and I told them I wanted
them in any state as all I needed was the stomach and guts] were always
clean killed at the hunts I was working with and that the victims were
all, without exception, weak individuals. The difference between them and
random accidental kills was anywhere between 25% to 45% less body
condition and weight. There were plenty of other markers for health that
showed the same results including the diet.
Its these sorts of foxes that are the greatest threat to domestic birds
[and other domestic animals in the long run] as they are that bit more
hungry and more desperate so will ignore the dangers of close contact that
keeps healthy foxes at a fair distance from humans....
Jill Bowis
-
Gjest
Re: Daughters of Sir Robert MARKHAM
The Robert Markham who married Joan d'Aubigny "bef 3 Mar 1444/5" and d 1 Sep
1495, had as father-in-law Giles d'Aubigny b 25 Oct 1395 d 11 Jan 1445/5
Then Margaret Markham by her married to Henry Willoughby, Knt of Wollaton (b
1450/4 d 11 May 1528) had four children (or more): Jane, John, Edward and
Margaret, before her own death by 1495 but not earlier than 1485
I'm not seeing a chronological difficulty in allowing her to be the daughter
of the Robert who d 1495.
Jane married Guiscard Harbottle 1 Jan 1502
John married Anne Grey 2 Oct 1486
Edward married Anne Filoll abt 1519
Margaret married John le Zouche, Knt 1486/94
That's a pretty fair stretch in marriage dates from 1486 to 1519
The marriage date for John is the date of the contract, and probably
indicates he was the eldest son (see genealogics)
Edward is called "second son"
Will Johnson
1495, had as father-in-law Giles d'Aubigny b 25 Oct 1395 d 11 Jan 1445/5
Then Margaret Markham by her married to Henry Willoughby, Knt of Wollaton (b
1450/4 d 11 May 1528) had four children (or more): Jane, John, Edward and
Margaret, before her own death by 1495 but not earlier than 1485
I'm not seeing a chronological difficulty in allowing her to be the daughter
of the Robert who d 1495.
Jane married Guiscard Harbottle 1 Jan 1502
John married Anne Grey 2 Oct 1486
Edward married Anne Filoll abt 1519
Margaret married John le Zouche, Knt 1486/94
That's a pretty fair stretch in marriage dates from 1486 to 1519
The marriage date for John is the date of the contract, and probably
indicates he was the eldest son (see genealogics)
Edward is called "second son"
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: Cole ancestry of Margaret (Locke) (Taylor) (Willoughby)
Regarding the wife of Col William Willoughby at his death
http://users.erols.com/rlward1/ahnentafel.html "Ahnentafel of Robert Leigh
Ward" July 2006
states "Elizabeth Wouller" who survived him and died 15 Sep 1662
Charlestown, Suffolk Co, Massachusetts
having married 3 Nov 1614 Stepney, Middlesex
http://users.erols.com/rlward1/ahnentafel.html "Ahnentafel of Robert Leigh
Ward" July 2006
states "Elizabeth Wouller" who survived him and died 15 Sep 1662
Charlestown, Suffolk Co, Massachusetts
having married 3 Nov 1614 Stepney, Middlesex
-
alden@mindspring.com
Re: Query: That Lucy Hungerford brought Farley Castle as her
WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
I believe she was daughter of William, 1st Lord Sandys who died bef 7
Dec 1540, not of the William who died 29 Sep 1623 (his great grandson).
See:
CP VI: 613-627.
CP XI: 441-446.
DEP, pps 73, 471.
Burke's General Armory, p 897.
Elizabethan Peerage at tudorplace.com
Camden and Fetherston, Vis. of Warwick 1619 (H.S.P. 12) (1877): 133.
Doug Smith
In a message dated 9/9/06 10:46:30 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
jthiggins@sbcglobal.net writes:
The father of Lucy and the half-brother of the elder Sir
Edward, Sir Walter, d. 1596 without surviving sons by either of his wife Ann
Basset or Anne Dormer (not Anne Sandys, who was one of three wives of his
father Sir Walter the executed Lord Hungerford of Heytesbury).
This Alice Sandys is supposed to be the daughter of William, 3rd Baron Sandys
of the Vine who d 29 Sep 1623. If that holds, she could not be the wife of a
man executed in 1540 as she herself could not have yet been born.
Will
I believe she was daughter of William, 1st Lord Sandys who died bef 7
Dec 1540, not of the William who died 29 Sep 1623 (his great grandson).
See:
CP VI: 613-627.
CP XI: 441-446.
DEP, pps 73, 471.
Burke's General Armory, p 897.
Elizabethan Peerage at tudorplace.com
Camden and Fetherston, Vis. of Warwick 1619 (H.S.P. 12) (1877): 133.
Doug Smith
-
Gjest
Re: Query: That Lucy Hungerford brought Farley Castle as her
In a message dated 9/9/06 10:46:30 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
jthiggins@sbcglobal.net writes:
<< The younger Anthony inherited
Farley from his elder half-brother Sir Edward (d. 1648 sp) who WAS a son of
Lucy. >>
Thanks John.
Le Neve here
http://books.google.com/books?vid=LCCN1 ... 34&dq=calt
horp
says both Edward and his wife died in 1629 not 1648 as you posted above, and
like you stating that Edward and Anthony were half-brothers, exactly as you
stated, so making it clear they are speaking of the same persons.
Was 1648 a typo? Or is there another source that is contradicting Le Neve
here? Says both are buried at Hungerford berks. Also says "Ashmole Berks 248"
but I don't know what that means unless it's citing a page number to something.
Will Johnson
jthiggins@sbcglobal.net writes:
<< The younger Anthony inherited
Farley from his elder half-brother Sir Edward (d. 1648 sp) who WAS a son of
Lucy. >>
Thanks John.
Le Neve here
http://books.google.com/books?vid=LCCN1 ... 34&dq=calt
horp
says both Edward and his wife died in 1629 not 1648 as you posted above, and
like you stating that Edward and Anthony were half-brothers, exactly as you
stated, so making it clear they are speaking of the same persons.
Was 1648 a typo? Or is there another source that is contradicting Le Neve
here? Says both are buried at Hungerford berks. Also says "Ashmole Berks 248"
but I don't know what that means unless it's citing a page number to something.
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: Query: That Lucy Hungerford brought Farley Castle as her
In a message dated 9/9/06 10:46:30 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
jthiggins@sbcglobal.net writes:
<< The younger Anthony inherited
Farley from his elder half-brother Sir Edward (d. 1648 sp) who WAS a son of
Lucy. But Sir Edward got Farley because he was the adopted heir of his
great-uncle another Sir Edward (d. 1607 sp) who was the uncle [of the half
blood] of Lucy. >>
Stepping over the elder brother, still living, John Hungerford who himself
got Down Ampney I suppose. I'm assuming that John was the elder as his own son
Anthony Reade Hungerford d 1645 was "of Down Ampney" himself in turn.
Will
jthiggins@sbcglobal.net writes:
<< The younger Anthony inherited
Farley from his elder half-brother Sir Edward (d. 1648 sp) who WAS a son of
Lucy. But Sir Edward got Farley because he was the adopted heir of his
great-uncle another Sir Edward (d. 1607 sp) who was the uncle [of the half
blood] of Lucy. >>
Stepping over the elder brother, still living, John Hungerford who himself
got Down Ampney I suppose. I'm assuming that John was the elder as his own son
Anthony Reade Hungerford d 1645 was "of Down Ampney" himself in turn.
Will
-
Gjest
Re: Query: That Lucy Hungerford brought Farley Castle as her
In a message dated 9/9/06 10:46:30 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
jthiggins@sbcglobal.net writes:
<< The father of Lucy and the half-brother of the elder Sir
Edward, Sir Walter, d. 1596 without surviving sons by either of his wife Ann
Basset or Anne Dormer (not Anne Sandys, who was one of three wives of his
father Sir Walter the executed Lord Hungerford of Heytesbury). >>
This Alice Sandys is supposed to be the daughter of William, 3rd Baron Sandys
of the Vine who d 29 Sep 1623. If that holds, she could not be the wife of a
man executed in 1540 as she herself could not have yet been born.
Will
jthiggins@sbcglobal.net writes:
<< The father of Lucy and the half-brother of the elder Sir
Edward, Sir Walter, d. 1596 without surviving sons by either of his wife Ann
Basset or Anne Dormer (not Anne Sandys, who was one of three wives of his
father Sir Walter the executed Lord Hungerford of Heytesbury). >>
This Alice Sandys is supposed to be the daughter of William, 3rd Baron Sandys
of the Vine who d 29 Sep 1623. If that holds, she could not be the wife of a
man executed in 1540 as she herself could not have yet been born.
Will
-
Gjest
Re: Query: That Lucy Hungerford brought Farley Castle as her
In a message dated 9/11/06 4:18:38 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
alden@mindspring.com writes:
<< I believe she was daughter of William, 1st Lord Sandys who died bef 7
Dec 1540, not of the William who died 29 Sep 1623 (his great grandson).
See:
CP VI: 613-627.
CP XI: 441-446.
DEP, pps 73, 471.
Burke's General Armory, p 897.
Elizabethan Peerage at tudorplace.com
Camden and Fetherston, Vis. of Warwick 1619 (H.S.P. 12) (1877): 133. >>
Thank you Doug for these references, but WHAT an awfully large gaff in Le
Neve!
http://books.google.com/books?vid=LCCN1 ... 33&dq=calt
horp
Here he shows this "Alice dr of Will Lord Sandys of the vine, 2nd w" in the
place I questioned.
It's bizarre he would assign a wife to a great-grandson. Maybe this Alice
was still living in the time of the great-grandson (unlikely but possible I
suppose) and thus the error.
Thanks
Will Johnson
alden@mindspring.com writes:
<< I believe she was daughter of William, 1st Lord Sandys who died bef 7
Dec 1540, not of the William who died 29 Sep 1623 (his great grandson).
See:
CP VI: 613-627.
CP XI: 441-446.
DEP, pps 73, 471.
Burke's General Armory, p 897.
Elizabethan Peerage at tudorplace.com
Camden and Fetherston, Vis. of Warwick 1619 (H.S.P. 12) (1877): 133. >>
Thank you Doug for these references, but WHAT an awfully large gaff in Le
Neve!
http://books.google.com/books?vid=LCCN1 ... 33&dq=calt
horp
Here he shows this "Alice dr of Will Lord Sandys of the vine, 2nd w" in the
place I questioned.
It's bizarre he would assign a wife to a great-grandson. Maybe this Alice
was still living in the time of the great-grandson (unlikely but possible I
suppose) and thus the error.
Thanks
Will Johnson
-
John Higgins
Re: Query: That Lucy Hungerford brought Farley Castle as her
CP says that Sir Edward Hungerford d. sp in 1648, not 1629. The fact that
LeNeve assigns the same death date to both Sir Edward and his wife looks to
to me suspiciously like a typo (or copying error). "Ashmole Berks 248" is
probably a reference to Elias Ashmole's "The Antiquities of Berkshire"
(available at the FHL and on film - maybe even on Google?)
----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, September 11, 2006 3:14 PM
Subject: Re: Query: That Lucy Hungerford brought Farley Castle as her
inheritence ?
lt
LeNeve assigns the same death date to both Sir Edward and his wife looks to
to me suspiciously like a typo (or copying error). "Ashmole Berks 248" is
probably a reference to Elias Ashmole's "The Antiquities of Berkshire"
(available at the FHL and on film - maybe even on Google?)
----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, September 11, 2006 3:14 PM
Subject: Re: Query: That Lucy Hungerford brought Farley Castle as her
inheritence ?
In a message dated 9/9/06 10:46:30 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
jthiggins@sbcglobal.net writes:
The younger Anthony inherited
Farley from his elder half-brother Sir Edward (d. 1648 sp) who WAS a son
of
Lucy.
Thanks John.
Le Neve here
http://books.google.com/books?vid=LCCN1 ... PA34&dq=ca
lt
horp
says both Edward and his wife died in 1629 not 1648 as you posted above,
and
like you stating that Edward and Anthony were half-brothers, exactly as
you
stated, so making it clear they are speaking of the same persons.
Was 1648 a typo? Or is there another source that is contradicting Le Neve
here? Says both are buried at Hungerford berks. Also says "Ashmole Berks
248"
but I don't know what that means unless it's citing a page number to
something.
Will Johnson
-
John Higgins
Re: Query: That Lucy Hungerford brought Farley Castle as her
Actually, LeNeve doesn't specify WHICH William, Lord Sandys is the father of
Alice. So the gaff, if any, is in the interpretation of Le Neve....
----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, September 11, 2006 4:26 PM
Subject: Re: Query: That Lucy Hungerford brought Farley Castle as her
inheritence ?
lt
Alice. So the gaff, if any, is in the interpretation of Le Neve....
----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, September 11, 2006 4:26 PM
Subject: Re: Query: That Lucy Hungerford brought Farley Castle as her
inheritence ?
In a message dated 9/11/06 4:18:38 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
alden@mindspring.com writes:
I believe she was daughter of William, 1st Lord Sandys who died bef 7
Dec 1540, not of the William who died 29 Sep 1623 (his great grandson).
See:
CP VI: 613-627.
CP XI: 441-446.
DEP, pps 73, 471.
Burke's General Armory, p 897.
Elizabethan Peerage at tudorplace.com
Camden and Fetherston, Vis. of Warwick 1619 (H.S.P. 12) (1877): 133.
Thank you Doug for these references, but WHAT an awfully large gaff in Le
Neve!
http://books.google.com/books?vid=LCCN1 ... PA33&dq=ca
lt
horp
Here he shows this "Alice dr of Will Lord Sandys of the vine, 2nd w" in
the
place I questioned.
It's bizarre he would assign a wife to a great-grandson. Maybe this Alice
was still living in the time of the great-grandson (unlikely but possible
I
suppose) and thus the error.
Thanks
Will Johnson
-
John Higgins
Re: Daughters of Sir Robert MARKHAM
I agree that the chronology does not preclude Margaret Markham, wife of Sir
Henry Willoughby, from being dau. of the younger Sir Robert Markham (d.
1496), but it also doesn't preclude the possibility that she was his sister
(although the first alternatibe seems more likely). The other two ladies I
mentioned in my first note seem chronologically more likely to be sisters of
the younger Sir Robert rather than his daughters. But the sources (such as
they are) are in conflict, and that raises the possibility that the three
ladies are not all sisters of one another.
----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, September 11, 2006 2:22 PM
Subject: Re: Daughters of Sir Robert MARKHAM
Henry Willoughby, from being dau. of the younger Sir Robert Markham (d.
1496), but it also doesn't preclude the possibility that she was his sister
(although the first alternatibe seems more likely). The other two ladies I
mentioned in my first note seem chronologically more likely to be sisters of
the younger Sir Robert rather than his daughters. But the sources (such as
they are) are in conflict, and that raises the possibility that the three
ladies are not all sisters of one another.
----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, September 11, 2006 2:22 PM
Subject: Re: Daughters of Sir Robert MARKHAM
The Robert Markham who married Joan d'Aubigny "bef 3 Mar 1444/5" and d 1
Sep
1495, had as father-in-law Giles d'Aubigny b 25 Oct 1395 d 11 Jan 1445/5
Then Margaret Markham by her married to Henry Willoughby, Knt of Wollaton
(b
1450/4 d 11 May 1528) had four children (or more): Jane, John, Edward and
Margaret, before her own death by 1495 but not earlier than 1485
I'm not seeing a chronological difficulty in allowing her to be the
daughter
of the Robert who d 1495.
Jane married Guiscard Harbottle 1 Jan 1502
John married Anne Grey 2 Oct 1486
Edward married Anne Filoll abt 1519
Margaret married John le Zouche, Knt 1486/94
That's a pretty fair stretch in marriage dates from 1486 to 1519
The marriage date for John is the date of the contract, and probably
indicates he was the eldest son (see genealogics)
Edward is called "second son"
Will Johnson
-
John Higgins
Re: Query: That Lucy Hungerford brought Farley Castle as her
I think you've got your Anthonys confused (not difficult in this family).
The younger Anthony (d. 1657) who inherited Farley from his half-brother Sir
Edward (d. 1648) was a son of the elder Anthony (d. 1627) whose first wife
was Lucy H. of Farley and whose elder brother was John H. of Down Ampney.
The selection of Sir Edward (d. 1648) as the adopted heir of Sir Edward (d.
1607) was probably due to his mother's relationship to the elder Sir Edward,
not his father's (which was far more distant), and thus John H. of Down
Ampney wouldn't have been involved at all. When the younger Sir Edward d.
in 1648, his heir was HIS closest relative, his half-brother the younger
Anthony (d. 1657).
----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, September 11, 2006 3:21 PM
Subject: Re: Query: That Lucy Hungerford brought Farley Castle as her
inheritence ?
The younger Anthony (d. 1657) who inherited Farley from his half-brother Sir
Edward (d. 1648) was a son of the elder Anthony (d. 1627) whose first wife
was Lucy H. of Farley and whose elder brother was John H. of Down Ampney.
The selection of Sir Edward (d. 1648) as the adopted heir of Sir Edward (d.
1607) was probably due to his mother's relationship to the elder Sir Edward,
not his father's (which was far more distant), and thus John H. of Down
Ampney wouldn't have been involved at all. When the younger Sir Edward d.
in 1648, his heir was HIS closest relative, his half-brother the younger
Anthony (d. 1657).
----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, September 11, 2006 3:21 PM
Subject: Re: Query: That Lucy Hungerford brought Farley Castle as her
inheritence ?
In a message dated 9/9/06 10:46:30 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
jthiggins@sbcglobal.net writes:
The younger Anthony inherited
Farley from his elder half-brother Sir Edward (d. 1648 sp) who WAS a son
of
Lucy. But Sir Edward got Farley because he was the adopted heir of his
great-uncle another Sir Edward (d. 1607 sp) who was the uncle [of the
half
blood] of Lucy.
Stepping over the elder brother, still living, John Hungerford who himself
got Down Ampney I suppose. I'm assuming that John was the elder as his
own son
Anthony Reade Hungerford d 1645 was "of Down Ampney" himself in turn.
Will
-
Gjest
Re: Query: That Lucy Hungerford brought Farley Castle as her
In a message dated 9/11/06 4:45:16 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
jthiggins@sbcglobal.net writes:
<< Actually, LeNeve doesn't specify WHICH William, Lord Sandys is the father
of
Alice. So the gaff, if any, is in the interpretation of Le Neve.... >>
Yes, but. He DOES specify that she was the 2nd wife of the wrong guy.
That's what I was pointing out.
For Alice to be "dau of William Lord Sandys" you only get a few choices.
He even assigns this marriage two male children who survived.
So it's still a pretty big gaff, not only in the interpretation, but in the
actual fact.
Either she was the second wife, of the guy he states here, or she wasn't.
He did assign her in that position
Will
jthiggins@sbcglobal.net writes:
<< Actually, LeNeve doesn't specify WHICH William, Lord Sandys is the father
of
Alice. So the gaff, if any, is in the interpretation of Le Neve.... >>
Yes, but. He DOES specify that she was the 2nd wife of the wrong guy.
That's what I was pointing out.
For Alice to be "dau of William Lord Sandys" you only get a few choices.
He even assigns this marriage two male children who survived.
So it's still a pretty big gaff, not only in the interpretation, but in the
actual fact.
Either she was the second wife, of the guy he states here, or she wasn't.
He did assign her in that position
Will
-
Gjest
Re: Query: That Lucy Hungerford brought Farley Castle as her
Actually what happend with Edward Hungerford d 1607, was that it hadn't
dawned on me that BOTH sides of the family were Hungerford's. So I went up to
"great-uncle" and plopped him there on the Down Ampney side, instead of putting
him up on the Farley side.
So hopefully it's fixed now. He was a son of Walter executed in 1540?
If so by which of his wifes?
dawned on me that BOTH sides of the family were Hungerford's. So I went up to
"great-uncle" and plopped him there on the Down Ampney side, instead of putting
him up on the Farley side.
So hopefully it's fixed now. He was a son of Walter executed in 1540?
If so by which of his wifes?
-
Gjest
Re: Ancestry of Prince William (via Aldersley of Aldersley)
In a message dated 9/11/06 9:20:21 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Therav3 writes:
<< 1.1b.1.1.1.1.1a Sir Gerard Salvain*
----------------------------------------
Birth: bef 5 Oct 1307[26],[25],[23]
Death: bef 6 Jul 1373[27],[28],[26],[25],[29] >>
Subj: Re: Salvayn and Roos de Werk Revisited
Date: 6/26/06 3:14:42 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: Jwc1870@aol.com (James W Cummings)
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
CPR abstract Edward III Volume 15 p 241 dated to October 15, 1372 at
Westminister
Commission to Thomas de Metham , John Dayvill and Robert Salvayn
to find by Inquistion in the county of York what lands and rents Gerard
Salvayn, chivalier and Robert his son, both deceased held in chief of the King in
demesne and service in that county on the days of their death and of what lords
and by what service and what those lands and rents are worth yearly, when the
said Gerard and Robert died, who is their nearest heir and of what age, who
have occupied the lands and rents and by what title, and whether their heir is
married or not and if so, by whom and when.
<< 1.1b.1.1.1.1.1a Sir Gerard Salvain*
----------------------------------------
Birth: bef 5 Oct 1307[26],[25],[23]
Death: bef 6 Jul 1373[27],[28],[26],[25],[29] >>
Subj: Re: Salvayn and Roos de Werk Revisited
Date: 6/26/06 3:14:42 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: Jwc1870@aol.com (James W Cummings)
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
CPR abstract Edward III Volume 15 p 241 dated to October 15, 1372 at
Westminister
Commission to Thomas de Metham , John Dayvill and Robert Salvayn
to find by Inquistion in the county of York what lands and rents Gerard
Salvayn, chivalier and Robert his son, both deceased held in chief of the King in
demesne and service in that county on the days of their death and of what lords
and by what service and what those lands and rents are worth yearly, when the
said Gerard and Robert died, who is their nearest heir and of what age, who
have occupied the lands and rents and by what title, and whether their heir is
married or not and if so, by whom and when.
-
John Higgins
Re: Query: That Lucy Hungerford brought Farley Castle as her
Take a look at the Hungerford pedigrees at the Stirnet site, which seem to
have it right. Le Neve has got it pretty fouled up....
----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, September 11, 2006 9:29 PM
Subject: Re: Query: That Lucy Hungerford brought Farley Castle as her
inheritence ?
have it right. Le Neve has got it pretty fouled up....
----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, September 11, 2006 9:29 PM
Subject: Re: Query: That Lucy Hungerford brought Farley Castle as her
inheritence ?
Actually what happend with Edward Hungerford d 1607, was that it hadn't
dawned on me that BOTH sides of the family were Hungerford's. So I went
up to
"great-uncle" and plopped him there on the Down Ampney side, instead of
putting
him up on the Farley side.
So hopefully it's fixed now. He was a son of Walter executed in 1540?
If so by which of his wifes?
-
Peter Jason
Re: McLaughlin's Weird, Neurotic Fixation On Foxes & Fox Hun
"Martin" <martin.reboul@spamfuktiscali.co.uk>
wrote in message
news:4505e1df_1@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com...
Come to think of it, riding with the hounds
may be old hat now, what with XBox360,
Playstation etc. There must be Fox Hunts
to be had on the screen, without all the
frosty mornings, rain, mud, sleet and riding
on horseback and blowing one's horn! No
smells, dogbites, headcolds and wacko
enviro-nerds either. And maybe the
fox-on-the-screen can WIN by delivering a
well-placed rabid bite to the jugular!
Sporting, eh wot! Talley Ho.
http://www.rottentomatoes.com/g/playsta ... erview.php
http://www.fortleavenworthmwr.com/fox_hunt.htm
http://marvin3m.com/arcade/sfoxhun.htm
http://www.rpgplanet.com/nexus/screensh ... play&Id=36
And for the intrepid city dweller...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1525177.stm
wrote in message
news:4505e1df_1@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com...
"D. Spencer Hines"
poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8A%Hg.350$15.4189@eagle.america.net...
On Target
No my dear David, missed by a mile as
always....
Your pathetic attempts to stir up trouble
(between the splendid folk you see as
your 'enemies') will only meet with the
derision they deserves.
We have discussed fox hunting... we know
where we stand, and who stands where...
we know we will never agree... we respect
each others opinion and remain
friends.
A bitter, twisted old fruit like yourself
could hardly be expected to
understand, but even so, you should try
sometime? It might possibly lead to
someone liking you.... though I'll not be
holding my breath.
Besides, why foxes should concern the likes
of you, I have no idea? I believe
they are not native to Hawaii. If I am
wrong about this, please feel free to buy
some hunting pink and a horse, and ride on!
Cheers
Martin
Come to think of it, riding with the hounds
may be old hat now, what with XBox360,
Playstation etc. There must be Fox Hunts
to be had on the screen, without all the
frosty mornings, rain, mud, sleet and riding
on horseback and blowing one's horn! No
smells, dogbites, headcolds and wacko
enviro-nerds either. And maybe the
fox-on-the-screen can WIN by delivering a
well-placed rabid bite to the jugular!
Sporting, eh wot! Talley Ho.
http://www.rottentomatoes.com/g/playsta ... erview.php
http://www.fortleavenworthmwr.com/fox_hunt.htm
http://marvin3m.com/arcade/sfoxhun.htm
http://www.rpgplanet.com/nexus/screensh ... play&Id=36
And for the intrepid city dweller...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1525177.stm
-
Gjest
Re: Query: That Lucy Hungerford brought Farley Castle as her
I was still having a problem with the idea that Edward Hungerford d 1648 was
the heir of his great-uncle Edward Hungerford to Farley Castle.
He isn't called "of Farley" but his half-brother Anthony is.
The old version of the DNB has shown why.
In the article on Edward it states that he was the "reversionary" heir, but
that the widow of Edward d 1607 was still living and in fact lived until 1653
and had a "life estate" in that property.
That explains both, why Edward (the younger) is never called "of Farley" AND
why in the article on Anthony it states he got Farley *in* 1653.
Will Johnson
the heir of his great-uncle Edward Hungerford to Farley Castle.
He isn't called "of Farley" but his half-brother Anthony is.
The old version of the DNB has shown why.
In the article on Edward it states that he was the "reversionary" heir, but
that the widow of Edward d 1607 was still living and in fact lived until 1653
and had a "life estate" in that property.
That explains both, why Edward (the younger) is never called "of Farley" AND
why in the article on Anthony it states he got Farley *in* 1653.
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: Query: That Lucy Hungerford brought Farley Castle as her
On Edward Hungerford's (d 1648) one and only wife, his [old] DNB article has
these statements
1) Marriage license 26 Feb 1619/20
2) Dau of William Hollidate or Halliday, Lord Mayor of London
3) Survived her husband until 1672, buried at Farleigh Castle
Will Johnson
these statements
1) Marriage license 26 Feb 1619/20
2) Dau of William Hollidate or Halliday, Lord Mayor of London
3) Survived her husband until 1672, buried at Farleigh Castle
Will Johnson
-
D. Spencer Hines
Re: The Victory of September 11, 1565
Both _DWARFS_ and _DWARVES_ are quite acceptable -- although the
cognoscenti, who can pronounce it properly, often prefer _DWARFS_.
DSH
"Peter Jason" <td@jostle.com> wrote in message
news:ee7jae$ooh$1@otis.netspace.net.au...
cognoscenti, who can pronounce it properly, often prefer _DWARFS_.
DSH
"Peter Jason" <td@jostle.com> wrote in message
news:ee7jae$ooh$1@otis.netspace.net.au...
We have dwarfs here, and we toss them for sport. Like the Scots and the
logs.
Except the dwarfs make a fuss - and nobody listens.
(is it dwarfs or dwarves?) English is an impossible language!
-
D. Spencer Hines
Re: The Victory of September 11, 1565
Both _DWARFS_ and _DWARVES_ are quite acceptable -- although the
cognoscenti, who can pronounce it properly, often prefer _DWARFS_.
DSH
"Peter Jason" <td@jostle.com> wrote in message
news:ee7jae$ooh$1@otis.netspace.net.au...
cognoscenti, who can pronounce it properly, often prefer _DWARFS_.
DSH
"Peter Jason" <td@jostle.com> wrote in message
news:ee7jae$ooh$1@otis.netspace.net.au...
We have dwarfs here, and we toss them for sport. Like the Scots and the
logs.
Except the dwarfs make a fuss - and nobody listens.
(is it dwarfs or dwarves?) English is an impossible language!
-
Patricia Junkin
Re: Kendal/Lancaster/Samlesbury
Paul,
According to the information I sent, Thomas was the son of Cospatrick with a
"C". Nicholson and Burns have cited several Shap/Heppe charters "Thomas
filius Cospatricii." There is no mention here of being the son of Orme.
However, in the same work n the "General View of the Succession to the
Barony of Kendal:
Ivo de Talebois>Eldred>Ketel>Orme>Gospatric>Thomas, &c the Curwen family.
Grant and Stringer in Medieval Scotland, Crown, Lordship and Community,
lists Gilbert son of Cospatric (*of Workington, Cumberland) holding
Southwick in the Galloway feu in the time of Alan of Galloway.
At some point, I seem to remember that these two me are not the same or have
been wrongly assumed to be the same. It certainly bears more research.
Pat
----------
According to the information I sent, Thomas was the son of Cospatrick with a
"C". Nicholson and Burns have cited several Shap/Heppe charters "Thomas
filius Cospatricii." There is no mention here of being the son of Orme.
However, in the same work n the "General View of the Succession to the
Barony of Kendal:
Ivo de Talebois>Eldred>Ketel>Orme>Gospatric>Thomas, &c the Curwen family.
Grant and Stringer in Medieval Scotland, Crown, Lordship and Community,
lists Gilbert son of Cospatric (*of Workington, Cumberland) holding
Southwick in the Galloway feu in the time of Alan of Galloway.
At some point, I seem to remember that these two me are not the same or have
been wrongly assumed to be the same. It certainly bears more research.
Pat
----------
From: paul bulkley <designeconomic@yahoo.com
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Kendal/Lancaster/Samlesbury
Date: Tue, 12, 2006, 11:51 AM
Thankyou Patricia for your information.
I think the Gospatrick quoted by you is Gospatrick 11
the illigitimate son of Gospatrick 1. His sister (not)
illigitimate) married Orm Kendal (s) Ketel (s) Eldred.
Did your Gospatrick have any children other than
Thomas?
Regarding Gospatrick (s) Orm of Kendal, I note two
"Yahoo" correspondents claim that he had a number of
children in addition to Thomas:
Thomas - ancestor of the Curwen family
Orm - High Ireby
Gilbert
Adam
Alexander
Perhaps this information may ring a bell?
Also a few "Yahoo" contributors claimed that
Gospatrick (s) Orm died 1179 age 60 in Samlesbury!
Finally Lancashire Pipe Rolls (Farrer) record
1208/1209 that Eudo de Longvillers was suing Reiner
(s) Peter for 4 oxgang of land in Birtwistle in the
township of Hapton. It mentioned that Thomas (s)
Gospatrick formerly held 20A. As Hapton is in
Blackburnshire not far from Samlesbury, it suggests a
Kendal presence and a possible connection to the
Gospatrick of Samlesbury family.
Best wishes
Paul Bulkley
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
-
Doug McDonald
Re: The Victory of September 11, 1565
D. Spencer Hines wrote:
This is an interesting case of how language changes. For
long "dwarfs" was more accepted. But JRR Tolkien decided he
liked the old-fashioned sounding "dwarves", though in fact
it was never historically dominant (according to his son.)
The great popularity of his books has made the "v" much more
acceptable.
Doug McDonald
Both _DWARFS_ and _DWARVES_ are quite acceptable -- although the
cognoscenti, who can pronounce it properly, often prefer _DWARFS_.
DSH
This is an interesting case of how language changes. For
long "dwarfs" was more accepted. But JRR Tolkien decided he
liked the old-fashioned sounding "dwarves", though in fact
it was never historically dominant (according to his son.)
The great popularity of his books has made the "v" much more
acceptable.
Doug McDonald
-
Eric Stevens
Re: The Victory of September 11, 1565
On Tue, 12 Sep 2006 20:41:41 -0500, Doug McDonald
<mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu> wrote:
To the best of my recollection Tolkien never mentioned either wharfs
or wharves. Something else must be at work.
Eric Stevens
<mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu> wrote:
D. Spencer Hines wrote:
Both _DWARFS_ and _DWARVES_ are quite acceptable -- although the
cognoscenti, who can pronounce it properly, often prefer _DWARFS_.
DSH
This is an interesting case of how language changes. For
long "dwarfs" was more accepted. But JRR Tolkien decided he
liked the old-fashioned sounding "dwarves", though in fact
it was never historically dominant (according to his son.)
The great popularity of his books has made the "v" much more
acceptable.
To the best of my recollection Tolkien never mentioned either wharfs
or wharves. Something else must be at work.
Eric Stevens
-
Gjest
Re: Eve d'Harcourt, Dame de Lisors
In a message dated 9/12/06 6:44:51 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
zzhsoszy@uqconnect.net writes:
<< The above lady is the daughter of Guillaume I
Seigneur d'Harcourt, died 1141/1148, and she is said to have married
Guillaume IV Crispin, Baron du Bec, +1233 and mother of Gullaume V
+ca1263. The chronology appears to make this incorrect, as follows.
Guillaume I bc1100 +1141/1148 >>
I have her married to Guilluame II not IV (d aft 1179) and thus the mother of
Guillaume III m Amicia de Roye
Will Johnson
zzhsoszy@uqconnect.net writes:
<< The above lady is the daughter of Guillaume I
Seigneur d'Harcourt, died 1141/1148, and she is said to have married
Guillaume IV Crispin, Baron du Bec, +1233 and mother of Gullaume V
+ca1263. The chronology appears to make this incorrect, as follows.
Guillaume I bc1100 +1141/1148 >>
I have her married to Guilluame II not IV (d aft 1179) and thus the mother of
Guillaume III m Amicia de Roye
Will Johnson
-
D. Spencer Hines
Re: Renia Stulta & Horsellman Rarebit -- Two Born & Bred Bri
Bingo!
Top People Top Post...
While:
Bottom People Bottom Post.
It's A Class Differentiation.
Brits Should Understand That.
DSH
Fortem Posce Animum
"Renia" <renia@DELETEotenet.gr> wrote in message
news:ee8jja$o53$1@mouse.otenet.gr...
Top People Top Post...
While:
Bottom People Bottom Post.
It's A Class Differentiation.
Brits Should Understand That.
DSH
Fortem Posce Animum
"Renia" <renia@DELETEotenet.gr> wrote in message
news:ee8jja$o53$1@mouse.otenet.gr...
Linz wrote:
Renia wrote:
Why do you post this twice?
Why do you top-post?
For reasy [sic] reading rather than having to trawl all the way to the
bottom...
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Eve d'Harcourt, Dame de Lisors
<WJhonson@aol.com> wrote in message news:314.600dfab.323a1680@aol.com...
As far as I'm aware these two were the only sons recorded - there was also a
daughter who married the seigneur of Livarot.
Peter Stewart
In a message dated 9/13/06 3:59:56 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
p_m_stewart@msn.com writes:
Two of her sons
witnessed a charter with their father in 1190: there is nothing to
indicate
how old they were at the time, or how many children she might have had
before them.
Peter which two? Guillaume and Simon ?
As far as I'm aware these two were the only sons recorded - there was also a
daughter who married the seigneur of Livarot.
Peter Stewart
-
Gjest
Re: Eve d'Harcourt, Dame de Lisors
In a message dated 9/13/06 3:59:56 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
p_m_stewart@msn.com writes:
<< Two of her sons
witnessed a charter with their father in 1190: there is nothing to indicate
how old they were at the time, or how many children she might have had
before them. >>
Peter which two? Guillaume and Simon ?
p_m_stewart@msn.com writes:
<< Two of her sons
witnessed a charter with their father in 1190: there is nothing to indicate
how old they were at the time, or how many children she might have had
before them. >>
Peter which two? Guillaume and Simon ?
-
Gjest
Re: 100 leading persons of Elizabethan England
In a message dated 9/10/06 10:56:44 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au writes:
<< There is series of books called Who's Who in British History.
It is subdivided into periods
-Tudor England >>
Thanks Leo. I found a copy of this, "last one left!" at a bookstore trying
to unload it for ten bucks.
Great discount off the list price of something like twenty-five.
Should have it in a week or so.
Will
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au writes:
<< There is series of books called Who's Who in British History.
It is subdivided into periods
-Tudor England >>
Thanks Leo. I found a copy of this, "last one left!" at a bookstore trying
to unload it for ten bucks.
Great discount off the list price of something like twenty-five.
Should have it in a week or so.
Will
-
Carl H. Jones
RE: OT - Finland
Leo,
Not sure how reliable some here would consider it, but this site may at
least get you started.
http://www8.informatik.uni-erlangen.de/ ... /LANG=engl
/?Europa-3899
-----Original Message-----
From: Leo van de Pas [mailto:leovdpas@netspeed.com.au]
Sent: Sunday, September 17, 2006 8:20 PM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: OT - Finland
Does anyone have access to nobility books covering Finland?
With many thanks
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australi
Not sure how reliable some here would consider it, but this site may at
least get you started.
http://www8.informatik.uni-erlangen.de/ ... /LANG=engl
/?Europa-3899
-----Original Message-----
From: Leo van de Pas [mailto:leovdpas@netspeed.com.au]
Sent: Sunday, September 17, 2006 8:20 PM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: OT - Finland
Does anyone have access to nobility books covering Finland?
With many thanks
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australi
-
Gjest
Re: OT - Finland
Dear Leo,
Does Finland have nobility ?
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
Does Finland have nobility ?
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
-
Gjest
Re: A Domesday Descent: Hay of Aughton, and of Spaldington
Sunday, 17 September, 2006
Dear Tim, Doug, et al.,
Thanks to both Tim and Doug, for the sources and citations
(and observations) of the past two days. Many thanks also to
Rosie Bevan, who kindly provided the necessary details from
Farrer's EYC (and from Early Yorkshire Families) to help resolve
at least some of the uncertainties involved with the Hays (de
la Hayes) of Aughton, and of Spaldington.
I provide below the revised chart showing the relationships
of the individuals as set out in Early Yorkshire Charters
II:422-423, no. 1130 (including the ancestry of William fitz
Peter as described by Farrer in his explanatory note). I will
provide further details once all the extractions from EYC and
EYF are complete, but thought it would be useful to 'lay this
out' meanwhile.
Nigel
I
I
Alured Roger fitz Nigel Anketine
I tenant in North Cave I
I of Fossard, ca. 1135-1156 I
I I I
I I I
Roger fitz Alured Roger fitz Roger William fitz
tenant of Henry de Laci, tenant of William Anketine
1166 Fossard, 1166 I
I _____________I _____________I
I I I
Emma = Thomas 'I' de Peter = Christina
I la Haye I
I d. bef 1191 I
I _____________I_________
I I I
Thomas 'II' de la Haye Agnes = Adam de William
of Aughton, co. Yorks. I Linton fitz Peter
fl. 1197-1200 I fl. 1197-1200
d. bef 1228 I
I I
_________ I _______________________I_____________________
I I I I
I ___I___________________ I _______________ I
I I I I I I
William = Emma Roger = Christina Peter = Oliva
de de la de la I de Linton de la I de
Burland Haye Haye I Haye I Linton
(Linton) d. aft I I
dsp (?) 1243 I I
__________I______ I
I I I
William John Sir Peter
de la Haye de la Haye de la Haye
of Aughton of Aughton of Spaldington
dsp bef 1251 fl. 1251 fl. 1254
I I
V V
a quo a quo
HAY of Aughton de la HAYE
of Spaldington
Of the interesting items that merit further discussion, and
documentation:
1. There may be details in Domesday Descendants re: William
fitz Anketine, grandfather of William fitz Peter, as well
as Anketine (Aschitel/Anketil ?) himself - who might also
appear in Domesday People, for all we currently know.
2. The text of the charter, and notes, from EYC II:422-3
are concerned with Aughton, and Goodmanham, and the
arrangments concerning same (Roger de la Haye m.
Christina de Burland/Linton, and Emma de la Haye m.
William de Burland/Linton). There is no mention of
Spaldington, or other family members of this generation,
but the text makes it apparent there were other sons of
Thomas 'II' de la Haye: ' Rogero filio meo primogenito '
[" Roger, my firstborn son "] is identified as the
beneficiary of the agreement, so we know there were
younger sons.
From whence Britton found the details re: Peter de la
Haye (of Spaldington) as a younger son, and husband of
Oliva de Burland/Linton is not as yet apparent, but this
is from one or more sources outside EYC as it now appears.
The earliest mention I have found to date of this branch
is of Sir Peter de la Haye, who was evidently a son of
the Peter de la Haye and Oliva above:
' Sir (D'ns) Peter de la Haye holds half a fee in
Spaldington of the Barony of Mubraye, and pays yearly
6s. 8d. That land is worth five marcs. ' - IPM of Robert
de Greystoke, son of William, extent dated 15 May 1254
[Yorks. Inq. I:37]
More to follow; meanwhile, my thanks to you all for what has
been resolved to date.
Cheers,
John
Dear Tim, Doug, et al.,
Thanks to both Tim and Doug, for the sources and citations
(and observations) of the past two days. Many thanks also to
Rosie Bevan, who kindly provided the necessary details from
Farrer's EYC (and from Early Yorkshire Families) to help resolve
at least some of the uncertainties involved with the Hays (de
la Hayes) of Aughton, and of Spaldington.
I provide below the revised chart showing the relationships
of the individuals as set out in Early Yorkshire Charters
II:422-423, no. 1130 (including the ancestry of William fitz
Peter as described by Farrer in his explanatory note). I will
provide further details once all the extractions from EYC and
EYF are complete, but thought it would be useful to 'lay this
out' meanwhile.
Nigel
I
I
Alured Roger fitz Nigel Anketine
I tenant in North Cave I
I of Fossard, ca. 1135-1156 I
I I I
I I I
Roger fitz Alured Roger fitz Roger William fitz
tenant of Henry de Laci, tenant of William Anketine
1166 Fossard, 1166 I
I _____________I _____________I
I I I
Emma = Thomas 'I' de Peter = Christina
I la Haye I
I d. bef 1191 I
I _____________I_________
I I I
Thomas 'II' de la Haye Agnes = Adam de William
of Aughton, co. Yorks. I Linton fitz Peter
fl. 1197-1200 I fl. 1197-1200
d. bef 1228 I
I I
_________ I _______________________I_____________________
I I I I
I ___I___________________ I _______________ I
I I I I I I
William = Emma Roger = Christina Peter = Oliva
de de la de la I de Linton de la I de
Burland Haye Haye I Haye I Linton
(Linton) d. aft I I
dsp (?) 1243 I I
__________I______ I
I I I
William John Sir Peter
de la Haye de la Haye de la Haye
of Aughton of Aughton of Spaldington
dsp bef 1251 fl. 1251 fl. 1254
I I
V V
a quo a quo
HAY of Aughton de la HAYE
of Spaldington
Of the interesting items that merit further discussion, and
documentation:
1. There may be details in Domesday Descendants re: William
fitz Anketine, grandfather of William fitz Peter, as well
as Anketine (Aschitel/Anketil ?) himself - who might also
appear in Domesday People, for all we currently know.
2. The text of the charter, and notes, from EYC II:422-3
are concerned with Aughton, and Goodmanham, and the
arrangments concerning same (Roger de la Haye m.
Christina de Burland/Linton, and Emma de la Haye m.
William de Burland/Linton). There is no mention of
Spaldington, or other family members of this generation,
but the text makes it apparent there were other sons of
Thomas 'II' de la Haye: ' Rogero filio meo primogenito '
[" Roger, my firstborn son "] is identified as the
beneficiary of the agreement, so we know there were
younger sons.
From whence Britton found the details re: Peter de la
Haye (of Spaldington) as a younger son, and husband of
Oliva de Burland/Linton is not as yet apparent, but this
is from one or more sources outside EYC as it now appears.
The earliest mention I have found to date of this branch
is of Sir Peter de la Haye, who was evidently a son of
the Peter de la Haye and Oliva above:
' Sir (D'ns) Peter de la Haye holds half a fee in
Spaldington of the Barony of Mubraye, and pays yearly
6s. 8d. That land is worth five marcs. ' - IPM of Robert
de Greystoke, son of William, extent dated 15 May 1254
[Yorks. Inq. I:37]
More to follow; meanwhile, my thanks to you all for what has
been resolved to date.
Cheers,
John
-
Gjest
Re: OT - Finland
Jwc1870@aol.com wrote:
http://bayimages.net/helsinki/buildings ... /i379.html
Does Finland have nobility ?
http://bayimages.net/helsinki/buildings ... /i379.html
-
Gjest
Re: A tight chronology for Agnes (Bulstrode) Brudenell
In a message dated 9/18/06 9:27:10 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
mjcar@btinternet.com writes:
<< Actually, I think the problem here is a confusion between two men named
Richard Bulstrode, separated by several generations. Richard,
grandfather of Agnes was not Richard, comptroller to Edward IV.
See http://www.bolstridge.org.uk/family/tree/i2570.htm >>
Thank you for this link. It caused me to go mousing around on this site
which then caused me to query "Sir John Croke" and find a new connection to these
families.
There were several men named John Croke, but of particular interest to me was
the one who d 1554, after marrying "Prudentia" (Prudence) Cave daughter of
Richard Cave.
Leo has this marriage here
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.ph ... 6&tree=LEO
and I had copied it in, without realizing the significance of this fellow.
His DNB entry add these facts:
1) John Croke d 1554
2) son of Richard Croke of Easington, Buckinghamshire, descended from the
family of Blount or Le Blount
3) Mother named Alicia
4) Educated at Eton, then to Cambridge in 1507
5) Became a clerk in chancery in 1522
6) Purchased an estate at Chilton
7) Died 2 Sep 1554, buried at Chilton Church
Wife Prudentia, third daughter of Richard Cave, and sister of Sir Ambrose
Cave [q.v.] died before him.
9) by her a son John Croke, father of Sir John and Sir George, two judges,
both separately noticed
This son also Sir John 1530-1608 was
High Sheriff of Buckinghamshire, Member of Parliament
and married Elizabeth Unton dau of Alexander Unton by Cicely Bulstrode
Of this marriage there were at least four children: John, Cecily, Henry and
George
The eldest John married Catharine Blount dau of Michael Blount of
Mapledurham, who I assume is the same person who married Mary Moore (d 1592). This same
John was
Knt 1603, Speaker of the House 1601, Justice on the King's Bench 1607
and d 23 Jan 1619/20 (per his own DNB entry)
I have almost a complete five generation chart of the ancestors but am
missing parents for Mary Moore
Prudence Cave has a Cecil number of 4, which now brings all of these persons
into my database
Will Johnson
mjcar@btinternet.com writes:
<< Actually, I think the problem here is a confusion between two men named
Richard Bulstrode, separated by several generations. Richard,
grandfather of Agnes was not Richard, comptroller to Edward IV.
See http://www.bolstridge.org.uk/family/tree/i2570.htm >>
Thank you for this link. It caused me to go mousing around on this site
which then caused me to query "Sir John Croke" and find a new connection to these
families.
There were several men named John Croke, but of particular interest to me was
the one who d 1554, after marrying "Prudentia" (Prudence) Cave daughter of
Richard Cave.
Leo has this marriage here
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.ph ... 6&tree=LEO
and I had copied it in, without realizing the significance of this fellow.
His DNB entry add these facts:
1) John Croke d 1554
2) son of Richard Croke of Easington, Buckinghamshire, descended from the
family of Blount or Le Blount
3) Mother named Alicia
4) Educated at Eton, then to Cambridge in 1507
5) Became a clerk in chancery in 1522
6) Purchased an estate at Chilton
7) Died 2 Sep 1554, buried at Chilton Church
Cave [q.v.] died before him.
9) by her a son John Croke, father of Sir John and Sir George, two judges,
both separately noticed
This son also Sir John 1530-1608 was
High Sheriff of Buckinghamshire, Member of Parliament
and married Elizabeth Unton dau of Alexander Unton by Cicely Bulstrode
Of this marriage there were at least four children: John, Cecily, Henry and
George
The eldest John married Catharine Blount dau of Michael Blount of
Mapledurham, who I assume is the same person who married Mary Moore (d 1592). This same
John was
Knt 1603, Speaker of the House 1601, Justice on the King's Bench 1607
and d 23 Jan 1619/20 (per his own DNB entry)
I have almost a complete five generation chart of the ancestors but am
missing parents for Mary Moore
Prudence Cave has a Cecil number of 4, which now brings all of these persons
into my database
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: A tight chronology for Agnes (Bulstrode) Brudenell
WJhonson@aol.com schrieb:
Dr Charles Croke, son of the latter couple was Rector of Amersham,
Bucks, until he was ejected during the Civil War for refusing to give
up using the Prayer Book; he died in Ireland before the Restoration. I
have the deeds-chest for the Drake Almshouse charity at Amersham and,
recalling that this contained a number of Brudenell deeds for
Chalfont, going back to at least the early 16th century, I have now
hunted through my abstracts but no record of Bulstrodes in there (must
get them to the County Record Office at some stage!)
MA-R
Thank you for this link. It caused me to go mousing around on this site
which then caused me to query "Sir John Croke" and find a new connection to these
families.
There were several men named John Croke, but of particular interest to me was
the one who d 1554, after marrying "Prudentia" (Prudence) Cave daughter of
Richard Cave.
This son also Sir John 1530-1608 was
High Sheriff of Buckinghamshire, Member of Parliament
and married Elizabeth Unton dau of Alexander Unton by Cicely Bulstrode
Of this marriage there were at least four children: John, Cecily, Henry and
George
The eldest John married Catharine Blount dau of Michael Blount of
Mapledurham, who I assume is the same person who married Mary Moore (d 1592). This same
John was
Knt 1603, Speaker of the House 1601, Justice on the King's Bench 1607
and d 23 Jan 1619/20 (per his own DNB entry)
Dr Charles Croke, son of the latter couple was Rector of Amersham,
Bucks, until he was ejected during the Civil War for refusing to give
up using the Prayer Book; he died in Ireland before the Restoration. I
have the deeds-chest for the Drake Almshouse charity at Amersham and,
recalling that this contained a number of Brudenell deeds for
Chalfont, going back to at least the early 16th century, I have now
hunted through my abstracts but no record of Bulstrodes in there (must
get them to the County Record Office at some stage!)
MA-R
-
Leo van de Pas
Re: OT - Finland
Finland's aristocracy is very much part of the Swedish nobility.
Leo
----- Original Message -----
From: <paulvheath@gmail.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 5:03 AM
Subject: Re: OT - Finland
Leo
----- Original Message -----
From: <paulvheath@gmail.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 5:03 AM
Subject: Re: OT - Finland
Jwc1870@aol.com wrote:
Does Finland have nobility ?
http://bayimages.net/helsinki/buildings ... /i379.html
-
Gjest
Re: A tight chronology for Agnes (Bulstrode) Brudenell
In a message dated 9/18/06 9:44:40 AM Pacific Daylight Time, mllt1@le.ac.uk
writes:
<< The contemporary court rolls of the manor of Chalfont St Peter come
frustratingly close to providing the answer. The roll of the court
held on 22 January 1422 contains an entry to the effect that 'Edmund
son of William Brudenell did fealty and acknowledged holding from the
lord all the land and tenement called Boterfeldes late Wakeleyns and
Wodyngfeldes, by what service is not known, therefore he was given a
day to enquire and show his evidences at the next court held here.' >>
Which is problematic chronologically in the placement of Agnes Bulstrode as a
daughter of a couple mentioned as having themselves married "about 1400", per
this site
http://www.bolstridge.org.uk/family/tree/i2570.htm
The "about" can't itself be that far off given the rest of the tree which
chrologically fits those parameters too closely to allow an "Edmund son of " to
be old enough to do fealty in 1422.
Rather it must be that this tree is incorrect in it's placement of Agnes
Bulstrode OR that the above Edmund is not in fact the son of Agnes Bulstrode at all
OR is it that the above Edmund in the uncle of the Edmund who is the son of
Agnes, who by the way, is also referred to as "Edward" ?
Will Johnson
writes:
<< The contemporary court rolls of the manor of Chalfont St Peter come
frustratingly close to providing the answer. The roll of the court
held on 22 January 1422 contains an entry to the effect that 'Edmund
son of William Brudenell did fealty and acknowledged holding from the
lord all the land and tenement called Boterfeldes late Wakeleyns and
Wodyngfeldes, by what service is not known, therefore he was given a
day to enquire and show his evidences at the next court held here.' >>
Which is problematic chronologically in the placement of Agnes Bulstrode as a
daughter of a couple mentioned as having themselves married "about 1400", per
this site
http://www.bolstridge.org.uk/family/tree/i2570.htm
The "about" can't itself be that far off given the rest of the tree which
chrologically fits those parameters too closely to allow an "Edmund son of " to
be old enough to do fealty in 1422.
Rather it must be that this tree is incorrect in it's placement of Agnes
Bulstrode OR that the above Edmund is not in fact the son of Agnes Bulstrode at all
OR is it that the above Edmund in the uncle of the Edmund who is the son of
Agnes, who by the way, is also referred to as "Edward" ?
Will Johnson