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D. Patterson

Re: The Political Compass

Legg inn av D. Patterson » 29 aug 2006 17:01:34

La N wrote:

"D. Patterson" <nye@fidalgo.net> wrote in message
news:44F45FA5.7060201@fidalgo.net...


La N wrote:


"D. Patterson" <nye@fidalgo.net> wrote in message
news:44F42D85.9030802@fidalgo.net...


La N wrote:



"D. Patterson" <nye@fidalgo.net> wrote in message
news:44F42992.2010205@fidalgo.net...



La N wrote:




"hippo" <hippo@south-sudan.net> wrote in message
news:12f7g4anj5v8227@corp.supernews.com...




"La N" wrote in message





"hippo" wrote in message




"Grey Satterfield" wrote in message





What fascinates me about Spencer and, dare I say it, I mostly
enjoy the
exchanges I have with him, is that I regard his pompous gas bag
mode as a
shtick, which he usually takes no more seriously than I do. He
goes wrong,
though, when he feels his ego threatened. Then he can get
painfully
personal and offensive. That's a big mistake, it seems to be but,
what the
hell, this is Usenet. :)




You'd be wrong about the shtick. What little humor he owns is
ponderous and so out of place it is obvious. No, he really thinks
he is a superior being and resents that his abilities are
constantly being ignored or denigrated by envious inferiors and
inferior superiors. His sort make excellent field commanders in
war. They are totally goal oriented and are willing to sacrifice
themselves, and all of their men, to attain them. In peacetime they
are tyrants in the workplace, and bullying husbands, fathers, and
neighbors. -the Troll





If he were my neighbour, there would be no fence high enough to keep
his prodding gossipy old nose out of my business! Anyway, Hipster,
you pretty much described a person with an exaggerated sense of
entitlement - dare I say it - narcissistic personality disorder.




Rather than a disorder it is a personality type. The problem is all
of their social skills are learned, usually from a father or admired
adult. They have no sense of why they are doing something, only that
their father did it or held similar values. They stick to these
learned behavioral patterns even when they are inappropriate,
unsuited to them, or have become outdated, often to their own
disadvantage. At base is a complete lack of understanding of both
themselves and the people around them. It varies in intensity, of
course. General Patton's infamous public gaffes are an example.
Patton and Rommel were both of this type. -the Troll





You are a wise man, oh Hipmeister, and a keen observer of human
nature. Furthermore, I think *you* are the one qualified to be a
headshrinker ... you scare me .... %)

- nilita



Do you have any idea where flatterers liek you are doomed to go when
they are cast into Dante's inferno?




Probably to a place called Malbowges with the rest of Hippo's fan club
...

- nilita


Eighth Circle. The fraudulent--those guilty of deliberate, knowing
evil--are located in a circle named Malebolge ("Evil Pockets"), divided
into ten ditches, with bridges spanning the ditches:

Ditch 1: Panderers and seducers walk in separate lines in opposite
directions, whipped by demons. (Canto XVIII)
Dante's guide rebuffs Malacoda and his fiends between ditches five and
six in the eighth circle of Inferno, Canto 21.

Ditch 2: Flatterers are steeped in human excrement.

Ditch 9: A sword-wielding devil hacks at the sowers of discord. As they
make their rounds the wounds heal, only to have the devil tear apart
their bodies again. Muhammad tells Dante to warn the schismatic and
heretic Fra Dolcino. (Cantos XXVIII and XXIX)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dante's_Inferno




Yeah yeah yeah ... Patterson, I gathered some months ago you didn't like
me. My heart shall go on, and you will continue to hump my posts coming
up with newer and more creative insults.

- nilita



ANNE BARBEAU GARDINER. The Teaching of Ethics through Literature and
Dante's Inferno. IT SEEMS absurd to give college students checklists of
factual information that they should know for cultural literacy when they
lack a much more crucial foundation for civilized living. The knowledge of
what vice and virtue consist of seems more necessary to a citizen than the
exact memory of the dates of a war...Yet if the art of justice, or
moderation, or compassion for the oppressed is what we truly admire, then
we ought to help citizens acquire these skills from their earliest
years...Recently, while completing a study of Dante's Inferno with a
class, I thought I might devise a way of helping the students make the
moral application from the scheme of vices in this medieval picture of
hell to contemporary examples drawn from newspapers. I thought they might
find it useful to judge contemporary conduct through the eyes of a great
Florentine moralist of 1300 AD. This merging of Dante and our times was so
acceptable to them that some who had previously been tongue-tied suddenly
became articulate, discussing with ardor what Dante would have thought
about a certain modern offender...The 1980s through Dante's Eyes: Name the
Circle, Ditch, and Punishment Reserved for These Wrongdoers...I found that
students had no trouble exercising their moral imagination and, after
putting themselves in Dante's place, assigning an appropriate level of
punishment to each offender. Some examples caused a good deal of
discussion, but since the students were looking through Dante's eyes, they
came to a consensus quite readily. Stepping back to a vantage point in
another age seemed an exhilarating exercise for them. A light-hearted mood
prevailed in the class as one sinner after another was sent down to an
appropriate place in the inferno...Later, after the term was over, another
student informed me that he had "changed his life-style" as a result of
reading Dante's Inferno . He stated that Dante had literally scared him
out of his vices...The author is Professor of English at John Jay College
of Criminal Justice, City University of New York.
http://www.mla.org/ade/bulletin/n093/093022.htm





Well, here's the deal. I don't consider admiring and complimenting
Hippo-troll (that which you have insinuated to be a hell-deserving sin of
idol flattery) to be a vice.

I'm guessing yer jes' jellus.

HTH

- nilita




Second Circle. Those overcome by lust are punished in this circle. These
souls are blown about to and fro by a violent storm, without hope of
rest. This symbolizes the power of lust to blow one about needlessly and
aimlessly.

Eighth Circle. The fraudulent--those guilty of deliberate, knowing
evil--are located in a circle named Malebolge ("Evil Pockets"), divided
into ten ditches, with bridges spanning the ditches:...Ditch 10: Groups
of various sorts of falsifiers (alchemists, counterfeiters, perjurers,
and impersonators) are afflicted with different types of diseases.

La N

Re: The Political Compass

Legg inn av La N » 29 aug 2006 17:04:26

"hippo" <hippo@south-sudan.net> wrote in message
news:12f8p30990p0f2a@corp.supernews.com...
"Renia" wrote in message

[.]

It's the Meme effect. Copying by example.

In a way. It's the reason for it that is important. The extreme of the
personality type lack internal evaluative systems for personal/human
relationships so everything must be adopted/learned from outside. Another
way to look at it is they entirely lack empathy and instead work from
mental behavioral lists by trying to match them up with situations. It's a
very shallow, single dimensional arrangement of which they are unaware.
Having no real understanding of themselves or other people, they think all
of us operate the same way. -the Troll


IOW self-absorbed egocentric *control* freaks Bleaaaghhh .... <shiver>
.........

- nil

La N

Re: The Political Compass

Legg inn av La N » 29 aug 2006 17:06:31

"D. Patterson" <nye@fidalgo.net> wrote in message
news:44F464DE.8030005@fidalgo.net...

La N wrote:

"D. Patterson" <nye@fidalgo.net> wrote in message
news:44F45FA5.7060201@fidalgo.net...


La N wrote:


"D. Patterson" <nye@fidalgo.net> wrote in message
news:44F42D85.9030802@fidalgo.net...


La N wrote:



"D. Patterson" <nye@fidalgo.net> wrote in message
news:44F42992.2010205@fidalgo.net...



La N wrote:




"hippo" <hippo@south-sudan.net> wrote in message
news:12f7g4anj5v8227@corp.supernews.com...




"La N" wrote in message





"hippo" wrote in message




"Grey Satterfield" wrote in message





What fascinates me about Spencer and, dare I say it, I mostly
enjoy the
exchanges I have with him, is that I regard his pompous gas bag
mode as a
shtick, which he usually takes no more seriously than I do. He
goes wrong,
though, when he feels his ego threatened. Then he can get
painfully
personal and offensive. That's a big mistake, it seems to be
but, what the
hell, this is Usenet. :)




You'd be wrong about the shtick. What little humor he owns is
ponderous and so out of place it is obvious. No, he really thinks
he is a superior being and resents that his abilities are
constantly being ignored or denigrated by envious inferiors and
inferior superiors. His sort make excellent field commanders in
war. They are totally goal oriented and are willing to sacrifice
themselves, and all of their men, to attain them. In peacetime
they are tyrants in the workplace, and bullying husbands,
fathers, and neighbors. -the Troll





If he were my neighbour, there would be no fence high enough to
keep his prodding gossipy old nose out of my business! Anyway,
Hipster, you pretty much described a person with an exaggerated
sense of entitlement - dare I say it - narcissistic personality
disorder.




Rather than a disorder it is a personality type. The problem is all
of their social skills are learned, usually from a father or
admired adult. They have no sense of why they are doing something,
only that their father did it or held similar values. They stick to
these learned behavioral patterns even when they are inappropriate,
unsuited to them, or have become outdated, often to their own
disadvantage. At base is a complete lack of understanding of both
themselves and the people around them. It varies in intensity, of
course. General Patton's infamous public gaffes are an example.
Patton and Rommel were both of this type. -the Troll





You are a wise man, oh Hipmeister, and a keen observer of human
nature. Furthermore, I think *you* are the one qualified to be a
headshrinker ... you scare me .... %)

- nilita



Do you have any idea where flatterers liek you are doomed to go when
they are cast into Dante's inferno?




Probably to a place called Malbowges with the rest of Hippo's fan club
...

- nilita


Eighth Circle. The fraudulent--those guilty of deliberate, knowing
evil--are located in a circle named Malebolge ("Evil Pockets"), divided
into ten ditches, with bridges spanning the ditches:

Ditch 1: Panderers and seducers walk in separate lines in opposite
directions, whipped by demons. (Canto XVIII)
Dante's guide rebuffs Malacoda and his fiends between ditches five and
six in the eighth circle of Inferno, Canto 21.

Ditch 2: Flatterers are steeped in human excrement.

Ditch 9: A sword-wielding devil hacks at the sowers of discord. As they
make their rounds the wounds heal, only to have the devil tear apart
their bodies again. Muhammad tells Dante to warn the schismatic and
heretic Fra Dolcino. (Cantos XXVIII and XXIX)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dante's_Inferno




Yeah yeah yeah ... Patterson, I gathered some months ago you didn't like
me. My heart shall go on, and you will continue to hump my posts coming
up with newer and more creative insults.

- nilita



ANNE BARBEAU GARDINER. The Teaching of Ethics through Literature and
Dante's Inferno. IT SEEMS absurd to give college students checklists of
factual information that they should know for cultural literacy when they
lack a much more crucial foundation for civilized living. The knowledge
of what vice and virtue consist of seems more necessary to a citizen than
the exact memory of the dates of a war...Yet if the art of justice, or
moderation, or compassion for the oppressed is what we truly admire, then
we ought to help citizens acquire these skills from their earliest
years...Recently, while completing a study of Dante's Inferno with a
class, I thought I might devise a way of helping the students make the
moral application from the scheme of vices in this medieval picture of
hell to contemporary examples drawn from newspapers. I thought they might
find it useful to judge contemporary conduct through the eyes of a great
Florentine moralist of 1300 AD. This merging of Dante and our times was
so acceptable to them that some who had previously been tongue-tied
suddenly became articulate, discussing with ardor what Dante would have
thought about a certain modern offender...The 1980s through Dante's Eyes:
Name the Circle, Ditch, and Punishment Reserved for These Wrongdoers...I
found that students had no trouble exercising their moral imagination
and, after putting themselves in Dante's place, assigning an appropriate
level of punishment to each offender. Some examples caused a good deal of
discussion, but since the students were looking through Dante's eyes,
they came to a consensus quite readily. Stepping back to a vantage point
in another age seemed an exhilarating exercise for them. A light-hearted
mood prevailed in the class as one sinner after another was sent down to
an appropriate place in the inferno...Later, after the term was over,
another student informed me that he had "changed his life-style" as a
result of reading Dante's Inferno . He stated that Dante had literally
scared him out of his vices...The author is Professor of English at John
Jay College of Criminal Justice, City University of New York.
http://www.mla.org/ade/bulletin/n093/093022.htm





Well, here's the deal. I don't consider admiring and complimenting
Hippo-troll (that which you have insinuated to be a hell-deserving sin of
idol flattery) to be a vice.

I'm guessing yer jes' jellus.

HTH

- nilita

Second Circle. Those overcome by lust are punished in this circle. These
souls are blown about to and fro by a violent storm, without hope of rest.
This symbolizes the power of lust to blow one about needlessly and
aimlessly.

Eighth Circle. The fraudulent--those guilty of deliberate, knowing
evil--are located in a circle named Malebolge ("Evil Pockets"), divided
into ten ditches, with bridges spanning the ditches:...Ditch 10: Groups of
various sorts of falsifiers (alchemists, counterfeiters, perjurers, and
impersonators) are afflicted with different types of diseases.


yeah ... yeah ... yeah ... i'm doomed .... <yawn>

And I still like and admire Hippo-troll. I deserve Hell!.

TOliver

Re: The Political Compass

Legg inn av TOliver » 29 aug 2006 17:07:02

"hippo" <hippo@south-sudan.net> wrote in message
news:12f8ml6oj7pq630@corp.supernews.com...
"a.spencer3" wrote in message

"hippo" wrote in message

You'd be wrong about the shtick. What little humor he owns is ponderous
and
so out of place it is obvious. No, he really thinks he is a superior
being
and resents that his abilities are constantly being ignored or
denigrated
by
envious inferiors and inferior superiors. His sort make excellent field
commanders in war. They are totally goal oriented and are willing to
sacrifice themselves, and all of their men, to attain them. In peacetime
they are tyrants in the workplace, and bullying husbands, fathers, and
neighbors. -the Troll


But didn't he also muck up his attempts at war-from-a-distance also?

They make good subordinate field commanders, not overall commanders. If
old Georgie Patton had been in overall command in Europe we'd have been at
war with all our allies long before Germany was finished off. A new theory
has been floated over here that Patton's accident was no accident, but
rather choreographed by Stalin. -the Troll
No, the British......


TMO

Peter Skelton

Re: The Political Compass

Legg inn av Peter Skelton » 29 aug 2006 17:07:15

On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 15:58:27 GMT, "TOliver"
<toliverjrFIX@Hot.rr.com> wrote:

"Grey Satterfield" <gsatterfield@cox.net> wrote et...

"hippo" <hippo@south-sudan.net> wrote:


His ego, of which he is mostly composed, is wounded. He thrashes and
blows
like a harpooned whale. It comes, as you say, from taking Usenet far too
seriously.

What irritates me most is thinking that the Brits, Canadians, and others
posting here might think he is typical of Americans and Republicans. -the
Troll

What fascinates me about Spencer and, dare I say it, I mostly enjoy the
exchanges I have with him, is that I regard his pompous gas bag mode as a
shtick, which he usually takes no more seriously than I do. He goes
wrong,
though, when he feels his ego threatened. Then he can get painfully
personal and offensive. That's a big mistake, it seems to be but, what
the
hell, this is Usenet. :)


I must admit to enjoying a substantial amount of the material, from mostly
misinterpreted to outright balderdash, which Spencer posts. I marvel at his
perspective of the world and that anyone could be (today especially, with
Usenet a constant companion) self-isolated. I've no trouble in
comprehending the "Leftish" perspective and opinions of most academics,
living so close to so many, although some - especially them - would rightly
claim that Baylor's "academics" have less freedom to wander philosophically,
while the reality of the matter is that many of my acquaintance could form
an echo-chamber choir for Viknce or John Mullen, as Liberal in view in the
tight little island of a Southern Baptist place than they would be down in
Austin, maybe even more so, just to make a point - meanwhile, the Law School
has changed to become more a bastion of conservatism than a breeding ground
for litigators as it once was. Spencer in his way is as removed from the
world as are so many of the Ivory Tower dwellers who abound on Usenet.

Just as I find Vikcne's incalculable offensiveness in his standard and
repeated fallback of accusing (or intimating that) all with views contrary
to his are more than dabbling their feet in the fountain of Fascism, I find
it difficult to stomach Spencer's all too easy and oft resort to nasty
insult (which in his case, a man entirely devoid, apparently, of anything
resembling a sense of humor) is simple self-destruction.

I'm little better in the sense that I'm quick to attempt to fling irrational
harpoons at posts, no matter the philosophy of the poster, that I see as
irrational or simply abject and open admissions of both prejudice and
ignorance, but I consistently attempt to at least cloak them in humor.

Spencer and Vince share a common ("joint") fault, a kinship neither would
care to admit, an absolute inability to laugh at themselves, an offense for
which one establishes self-guilt and for which there seems little cure or
even palliative. I suspect that there is a punitive side to the fault,
however, the inevitable self-punishment which descends upon the most
narcissist of us during some random glance at the mirror.

You had me with you to there, but you just flew off to cloud

cookoo land, irrationality beyond any hope of redemption.

Bye Olkivers

<s>


Peter Skelton

La N

Re: The Political Compass

Legg inn av La N » 29 aug 2006 17:10:06

"Peter Skelton" <skeltonp@cogeco.ca> wrote in message
news:gap8f2hjg7pghnu31coev33vhuu4qq85e0@4ax.com...
On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 15:58:27 GMT, "TOliver"
toliverjrFIX@Hot.rr.com> wrote:


"Grey Satterfield" <gsatterfield@cox.net> wrote et...

"hippo" <hippo@south-sudan.net> wrote:


His ego, of which he is mostly composed, is wounded. He thrashes and
blows
like a harpooned whale. It comes, as you say, from taking Usenet far
too
seriously.

What irritates me most is thinking that the Brits, Canadians, and
others
posting here might think he is typical of Americans and
Republicans. -the
Troll

What fascinates me about Spencer and, dare I say it, I mostly enjoy the
exchanges I have with him, is that I regard his pompous gas bag mode as
a
shtick, which he usually takes no more seriously than I do. He goes
wrong,
though, when he feels his ego threatened. Then he can get painfully
personal and offensive. That's a big mistake, it seems to be but, what
the
hell, this is Usenet. :)


I must admit to enjoying a substantial amount of the material, from mostly
misinterpreted to outright balderdash, which Spencer posts. I marvel at
his
perspective of the world and that anyone could be (today especially, with
Usenet a constant companion) self-isolated. I've no trouble in
comprehending the "Leftish" perspective and opinions of most academics,
living so close to so many, although some - especially them - would
rightly
claim that Baylor's "academics" have less freedom to wander
philosophically,
while the reality of the matter is that many of my acquaintance could form
an echo-chamber choir for Viknce or John Mullen, as Liberal in view in the
tight little island of a Southern Baptist place than they would be down in
Austin, maybe even more so, just to make a point - meanwhile, the Law
School
has changed to become more a bastion of conservatism than a breeding
ground
for litigators as it once was. Spencer in his way is as removed from the
world as are so many of the Ivory Tower dwellers who abound on Usenet.

Just as I find Vikcne's incalculable offensiveness in his standard and
repeated fallback of accusing (or intimating that) all with views contrary
to his are more than dabbling their feet in the fountain of Fascism, I
find
it difficult to stomach Spencer's all too easy and oft resort to nasty
insult (which in his case, a man entirely devoid, apparently, of anything
resembling a sense of humor) is simple self-destruction.

I'm little better in the sense that I'm quick to attempt to fling
irrational
harpoons at posts, no matter the philosophy of the poster, that I see as
irrational or simply abject and open admissions of both prejudice and
ignorance, but I consistently attempt to at least cloak them in humor.

Spencer and Vince share a common ("joint") fault, a kinship neither would
care to admit, an absolute inability to laugh at themselves, an offense
for
which one establishes self-guilt and for which there seems little cure or
even palliative. I suspect that there is a punitive side to the fault,
however, the inevitable self-punishment which descends upon the most
narcissist of us during some random glance at the mirror.

You had me with you to there, but you just flew off to cloud
cookoo land, irrationality beyond any hope of redemption.

Bye Olkivers

s



From reading his last post myself, I'm guessing TMO was ghost writer for The
Seven Pillars of Wisdom.

- nil

hippo

Re: The Political Compass

Legg inn av hippo » 29 aug 2006 17:14:07

"La N" wrote in message

"hippo" wrote in message

"Renia" wrote in message

[.]

It's the Meme effect. Copying by example.

In a way. It's the reason for it that is important. The extreme of the
personality type lack internal evaluative systems for personal/human
relationships so everything must be adopted/learned from outside. Another
way to look at it is they entirely lack empathy and instead work from
mental behavioral lists by trying to match them up with situations. It's
a very shallow, single dimensional arrangement of which they are unaware.
Having no real understanding of themselves or other people, they think
all of us operate the same way. -the Troll


IOW self-absorbed egocentric *control* freaks Bleaaaghhh .... <shiver

Yup, that's exactly how they present, but it isn't their fault. They think
we are all egocentric control freaks too but less good at it than they are.
Would you want to change places with one of them? I didn't think so. -the
Troll

Grey Satterfield

Re: The Political Compass

Legg inn av Grey Satterfield » 29 aug 2006 17:15:32

On 8/29/06 10:17 AM, in article 12f8ml6oj7pq630@corp.supernews.com, "hippo"
<hippo@south-sudan.net> wrote:
They make good subordinate field commanders, not overall commanders. If old
Georgie Patton had been in overall command in Europe we'd have been at war
with all our allies long before Germany was finished off. A new theory has
been floated over here that Patton's accident was no accident, but rather
choreographed by Stalin. -the Troll

There was no Soviet conspiracy unless Stalin had control over the 2.5 ton US
Army truck and its American driver that turned in front of Patton's car and
caused the accident. Further, Patton's injury was a freak accident. He was
thrown forward in the back seat of a Cadillac limousine, hit the hard
partition between the front and back seats, and broke his neck. Neither of
the other occupants of the car, the driver and another general officer, was
injured.

Grey Satterfield

hippo

Re: The Political Compass

Legg inn av hippo » 29 aug 2006 17:26:18

"a.spencer3" wrote in message

"hippo" wrote in message

"a.spencer3" wrote in message

Rommel?

Yup, apparently Rommel was a perfect bastard to work for. His long
suffering
staff had to resort to subterfuge to get sleep and eat. He expected to be
informed about what was going on but didn't reciprocate, often leaving
them
in the dark as to where he was and what his plans were. His cavalier
attitude infuriated his boss Kesselring in Rome. -the Troll


I knew he was a hard driver, but never thought of him as erratic.
Must pay more attention!

He wasn't erratic by his lights. He learned from his boss in the first war
the necessity of staying up with a retreating enemy. That's a good thing. It
didn't help his poor staff keep up with events as he expected them to do.
Failure was failure to Rommel and success success. There was no in between.
It's one if the reasons he collapsed once winning was no longer possible
with the pitiful remnant of good troops he had left after the first
Alamein. -the Troll

hippo

Re: The Political Compass

Legg inn av hippo » 29 aug 2006 17:35:28

"D. Patterson" wrote in message

hippo wrote:

[.]

They make good subordinate field commanders, not overall commanders. If
old Georgie Patton had been in overall command in Europe we'd have been
at war with all our allies long before Germany was finished off. A new
theory has been floated over here that Patton's accident was no accident,
but rather choreographed by Stalin. -the Troll

I've long suspected he was being used in the same role in which he was
used as commander of FUSAG.

As a make-believe threat to the Soviets? -the Troll

hippo

Re: The Political Compass

Legg inn av hippo » 29 aug 2006 17:37:17

"TOliver" wrote in message

"hippo" wrote in message

[.]

They make good subordinate field commanders, not overall commanders. If
old Georgie Patton had been in overall command in Europe we'd have been
at war with all our allies long before Germany was finished off. A new
theory has been floated over here that Patton's accident was no accident,
but rather choreographed by Stalin. -the Troll

No, the British......

Chuckle, shame on you. :^) -the Troll

Eve McLaughlin

Re: The Political Compass

Legg inn av Eve McLaughlin » 29 aug 2006 17:39:18

In a

IOW self-absorbed egocentric *control* freaks

And why this sudden attack on inhabitants of the Isle of Wight?- who are
the usual admixture of good and bad, clever and stupid, but not, to my
knowledge, anything like little Hines at all, so the description should
be withdrawn..

--
Eve McLaughlin

Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians
Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society

hippo

Re: The Political Compass

Legg inn av hippo » 29 aug 2006 17:43:32

"Grey Satterfield" wrote in message

in article "hippo" wrote:

They make good subordinate field commanders, not overall commanders. If
old
Georgie Patton had been in overall command in Europe we'd have been at
war
with all our allies long before Germany was finished off. A new theory
has
been floated over here that Patton's accident was no accident, but rather
choreographed by Stalin. -the Troll

There was no Soviet conspiracy unless Stalin had control over the 2.5 ton
US
Army truck and its American driver that turned in front of Patton's car
and
caused the accident. Further, Patton's injury was a freak accident. He
was
thrown forward in the back seat of a Cadillac limousine, hit the hard
partition between the front and back seats, and broke his neck. Neither
of
the other occupants of the car, the driver and another general officer,
was
injured.

I know, but it is an interesting idea just the same. -the Troll

Grey Satterfield

Re: The Political Compass

Legg inn av Grey Satterfield » 29 aug 2006 17:48:49

On 8/29/06 11:07 AM, in article gap8f2hjg7pghnu31coev33vhuu4qq85e0@4ax.com,
"Peter Skelton" <skeltonp@cogeco.ca> wrote:

On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 15:58:27 GMT, "TOliver"
toliverjrFIX@Hot.rr.com> wrote:


"Grey Satterfield" <gsatterfield@cox.net> wrote et...

"hippo" <hippo@south-sudan.net> wrote:


His ego, of which he is mostly composed, is wounded. He thrashes and
blows
like a harpooned whale. It comes, as you say, from taking Usenet far too
seriously.

What irritates me most is thinking that the Brits, Canadians, and others
posting here might think he is typical of Americans and Republicans. -the
Troll

What fascinates me about Spencer and, dare I say it, I mostly enjoy the
exchanges I have with him, is that I regard his pompous gas bag mode as a
shtick, which he usually takes no more seriously than I do. He goes
wrong,
though, when he feels his ego threatened. Then he can get painfully
personal and offensive. That's a big mistake, it seems to be but, what
the
hell, this is Usenet. :)


I must admit to enjoying a substantial amount of the material, from mostly
misinterpreted to outright balderdash, which Spencer posts. I marvel at his
perspective of the world and that anyone could be (today especially, with
Usenet a constant companion) self-isolated. I've no trouble in
comprehending the "Leftish" perspective and opinions of most academics,
living so close to so many, although some - especially them - would rightly
claim that Baylor's "academics" have less freedom to wander philosophically,
while the reality of the matter is that many of my acquaintance could form
an echo-chamber choir for Viknce or John Mullen, as Liberal in view in the
tight little island of a Southern Baptist place than they would be down in
Austin, maybe even more so, just to make a point - meanwhile, the Law School
has changed to become more a bastion of conservatism than a breeding ground
for litigators as it once was. Spencer in his way is as removed from the
world as are so many of the Ivory Tower dwellers who abound on Usenet.

Just as I find Vikcne's incalculable offensiveness in his standard and
repeated fallback of accusing (or intimating that) all with views contrary
to his are more than dabbling their feet in the fountain of Fascism, I find
it difficult to stomach Spencer's all too easy and oft resort to nasty
insult (which in his case, a man entirely devoid, apparently, of anything
resembling a sense of humor) is simple self-destruction.

I'm little better in the sense that I'm quick to attempt to fling irrational
harpoons at posts, no matter the philosophy of the poster, that I see as
irrational or simply abject and open admissions of both prejudice and
ignorance, but I consistently attempt to at least cloak them in humor.

Spencer and Vince share a common ("joint") fault, a kinship neither would
care to admit, an absolute inability to laugh at themselves, an offense for
which one establishes self-guilt and for which there seems little cure or
even palliative. I suspect that there is a punitive side to the fault,
however, the inevitable self-punishment which descends upon the most
narcissist of us during some random glance at the mirror.

You had me with you to there, but you just flew off to cloud
cookoo land, irrationality beyond any hope of redemption.

Bye Olkivers

s

That "Olkivers" was mean man, real mean! :) I confess that Tom's
witheringly psychoanalytical post made me laugh out loud -- and Viknce is my
friend. I guess this proves that you don't have to approve of an entire
post for it to be entertaining.

Grey Satterfield

D. Patterson

Re: The Political Compass

Legg inn av D. Patterson » 29 aug 2006 18:10:40

hippo wrote:

"D. Patterson" wrote in message


hippo wrote:


[.]


They make good subordinate field commanders, not overall commanders. If
old Georgie Patton had been in overall command in Europe we'd have been
at war with all our allies long before Germany was finished off. A new
theory has been floated over here that Patton's accident was no accident,
but rather choreographed by Stalin. -the Troll


I've long suspected he was being used in the same role in which he was
used as commander of FUSAG.


As a make-believe threat to the Soviets? -the Troll







Yes, a threat, make-believe or not. There were a number of American POWs
moving with and/or behind the Soviet frontlines and who were not
detained by the Soviet forces as were thousands of others elsewhere.
After returing to Allied lines, many of them reported a remarkably
consistent experience of having Soviet officers matter of factly telling
the American POWs that the Soviet forces were to continue on and
"liberate" the rest of Western Europe from their former allies just as
soon as the Germans surrendered. Of course, for many good and sufficient
reasons, such an event never occurred. However, there are many reports
which appear to indicate that some of the Soviet armies had been given
reason to believe they were to continue their offensives into Western
Europe against the Americans, British, and French. It is this Soviet
posture of anticipated belligerance which also played such a key role in
a variety of other incidents in the months preceding and following the
German surrender, including the Soviet detention of thousands of
American and British Commonwealth POWs detained in the Soviet zones. The
incident with Patton making a provocative telephone call which he
absolutely had to know was being recorded by Soviet intelligence seems
to have been quite a good opportunity to send a signal to Stalin while
retaining plausible deniability for diplomatic purposes. Patton had
always relished his role as an actor, and this incident could have been
perhaps his final, most useful and successful, and most unselfish and
unsung role as an actor and a general.

D. Spencer Hines

Re: ROYAL BASTARDS LIVING TODAY?

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 29 aug 2006 18:19:20

There are many Brits, millions of them, and Americans as well -- who are
DESCENDANTS of Bastards -- but NOT bastards THEMSELVES.

For Example:

Millions of folks are descendants of William de Longespee, Earl of
Salisbury, who was a bastard of King Henry II. William was born circa 1170
and died in 1226 and was a famous warrior and very competent fellow.

Presidents George Washington and Franklin Delano Roosevelt are both
descendants of William de Longespee.

Washington is a 16th great-grandson of William de Longespee, FDR is a 21st
great-grandson ---- and Queen Elizabeth II is a 22nd great-granddaughter.

Stockdill, _au contraire_, has the notable distinction of being a Real
Bastard, as he himself has told us ---- and that makes him a horse
[correction: a horse's arse] of an entirely different color.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_de ... _Salisbury

The story of William de Longespee and the rat is a charming one --
delightfully British and outré.

Vide infra.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Vires et Honor

""Roy Stockdill"" <roy.stockdill@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:44F4444D.2054.F85993@localhost...

But, if you'll forgive me for saying so...

No.

<remaining detritus and balderdash mercifully snipped>

DSH

Peter Skelton

Re: The Political Compass

Legg inn av Peter Skelton » 29 aug 2006 18:27:21

On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 11:48:49 -0500, Grey Satterfield
<gsatterfield@cox.net> wrote:

On 8/29/06 11:07 AM, in article gap8f2hjg7pghnu31coev33vhuu4qq85e0@4ax.com,
"Peter Skelton" <skeltonp@cogeco.ca> wrote:

On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 15:58:27 GMT, "TOliver"
toliverjrFIX@Hot.rr.com> wrote:


"Grey Satterfield" <gsatterfield@cox.net> wrote et...

"hippo" <hippo@south-sudan.net> wrote:


His ego, of which he is mostly composed, is wounded. He thrashes and
blows
like a harpooned whale. It comes, as you say, from taking Usenet far too
seriously.

What irritates me most is thinking that the Brits, Canadians, and others
posting here might think he is typical of Americans and Republicans. -the
Troll

What fascinates me about Spencer and, dare I say it, I mostly enjoy the
exchanges I have with him, is that I regard his pompous gas bag mode as a
shtick, which he usually takes no more seriously than I do. He goes
wrong,
though, when he feels his ego threatened. Then he can get painfully
personal and offensive. That's a big mistake, it seems to be but, what
the
hell, this is Usenet. :)


I must admit to enjoying a substantial amount of the material, from mostly
misinterpreted to outright balderdash, which Spencer posts. I marvel at his
perspective of the world and that anyone could be (today especially, with
Usenet a constant companion) self-isolated. I've no trouble in
comprehending the "Leftish" perspective and opinions of most academics,
living so close to so many, although some - especially them - would rightly
claim that Baylor's "academics" have less freedom to wander philosophically,
while the reality of the matter is that many of my acquaintance could form
an echo-chamber choir for Viknce or John Mullen, as Liberal in view in the
tight little island of a Southern Baptist place than they would be down in
Austin, maybe even more so, just to make a point - meanwhile, the Law School
has changed to become more a bastion of conservatism than a breeding ground
for litigators as it once was. Spencer in his way is as removed from the
world as are so many of the Ivory Tower dwellers who abound on Usenet.

Just as I find Vikcne's incalculable offensiveness in his standard and
repeated fallback of accusing (or intimating that) all with views contrary
to his are more than dabbling their feet in the fountain of Fascism, I find
it difficult to stomach Spencer's all too easy and oft resort to nasty
insult (which in his case, a man entirely devoid, apparently, of anything
resembling a sense of humor) is simple self-destruction.

I'm little better in the sense that I'm quick to attempt to fling irrational
harpoons at posts, no matter the philosophy of the poster, that I see as
irrational or simply abject and open admissions of both prejudice and
ignorance, but I consistently attempt to at least cloak them in humor.

Spencer and Vince share a common ("joint") fault, a kinship neither would
care to admit, an absolute inability to laugh at themselves, an offense for
which one establishes self-guilt and for which there seems little cure or
even palliative. I suspect that there is a punitive side to the fault,
however, the inevitable self-punishment which descends upon the most
narcissist of us during some random glance at the mirror.

You had me with you to there, but you just flew off to cloud
cookoo land, irrationality beyond any hope of redemption.

Bye Olkivers

s

That "Olkivers" was mean man, real mean! :) I confess that Tom's
witheringly psychoanalytical post made me laugh out loud -- and Viknce is my
friend. I guess this proves that you don't have to approve of an entire
post for it to be entertaining.


I didn't say I didn't enjoy his post, he's entertaining even when
I'm the target. On occasion, he leads with his chin.

Peter Skelton

D. Spencer Hines

Re: The Political Compass

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 29 aug 2006 18:33:47

People who constantly carp, wheedle and whine about "Control Freaks" are
simply low-ranking members of the Poguenoscenti who resent the managers
above them in the World of Work, who control their lives.

John Ford was a "Control Freak" too and made Great Films.

George Washington, Theodore Roosevelt, Abraham Lincoln and Franklin
Roosevelt were ALL "Control Freaks" -- and four of our Greatest Presidents.

'Nuff Said.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

celia

Re: ROYAL BASTARDS LIVING TODAY?

Legg inn av celia » 29 aug 2006 19:03:02

D. Spencer Hines wrote:
There are many Brits, millions of them, and Americans as well -- who are
DESCENDANTS of Bastards -- but NOT bastards THEMSELVES.

For Example:

Millions of folks are descendants of William de Longespee, Earl of
Salisbury, who was a bastard of King Henry II. William was born circa 1170
and died in 1226 and was a famous warrior and very competent fellow.

Presidents George Washington and Franklin Delano Roosevelt are both
descendants of William de Longespee.

Washington is a 16th great-grandson of William de Longespee, FDR is a 21st
great-grandson ---- and Queen Elizabeth II is a 22nd great-granddaughter.

Stockdill, _au contraire_, has the notable distinction of being a Real
Bastard, as he himself has told us ---- and that makes him a horse
[correction: a horse's arse] of an entirely different color.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_de ... _Salisbury

The story of William de Longespee and the rat is a charming one --
delightfully British and outré.

Ten minutes ago a friend told me that she is illegitimate.
I can't see that it makes an iota of difference to who she
is or how I feel about her.
It's the 21st. c., the sins of the fathers are no longer visited upon
the children.

Celia

La N

Re: The Political Compass

Legg inn av La N » 29 aug 2006 19:52:03

"hippo" <hippo@south-sudan.net> wrote in message
news:12f8puhhg1621cb@corp.supernews.com...
"La N" wrote in message

"hippo" wrote in message

"Renia" wrote in message

[.]

It's the Meme effect. Copying by example.

In a way. It's the reason for it that is important. The extreme of the
personality type lack internal evaluative systems for personal/human
relationships so everything must be adopted/learned from outside.
Another way to look at it is they entirely lack empathy and instead work
from mental behavioral lists by trying to match them up with situations.
It's a very shallow, single dimensional arrangement of which they are
unaware. Having no real understanding of themselves or other people,
they think all of us operate the same way. -the Troll


IOW self-absorbed egocentric *control* freaks Bleaaaghhh .... <shiver

Yup, that's exactly how they present, but it isn't their fault. They think
we are all egocentric control freaks too but less good at it than they
are. Would you want to change places with one of them? I didn't think
so. -the Troll

I neither like the idea of being controlled or that I could control
somebody. Or, otherwise stated, I don't like to be told how to think or
feel, what I should be thinking or feeling, nor would I expect others to
have to think or feel such as I do. Ick.

- nil

Renia

Re: The Political Compass

Legg inn av Renia » 29 aug 2006 20:28:23

hippo wrote:

"Renia" wrote in message

[.]


It's the Meme effect. Copying by example.


In a way. It's the reason for it that is important. The extreme of the
personality type lack internal evaluative systems for personal/human
relationships so everything must be adopted/learned from outside. Another
way to look at it is they entirely lack empathy and instead work from mental
behavioral lists by trying to match them up with situations. It's a very
shallow, single dimensional arrangement of which they are unaware. Having no
real understanding of themselves or other people, they think all of us
operate the same way. -the Troll

Sounds like Asperger's, or autism, to some extent. "Normal" people learn
their culture by copying what everyone else does, primarly at first,
their parents and elder siblings, later, their peers. Presumably,
"normal" people have the benefit of evaluation why, and in what
circumstances they do or say particular things, even if subconsciously.
Perhaps the autistic lack this internal evaluative system, which hinders
the value of the copying mechanism they need in order to get on in life.

Renia

Re: The Political Compass

Legg inn av Renia » 29 aug 2006 20:31:28

D. Spencer Hines wrote:

People who constantly carp, wheedle and whine about "Control Freaks" are
simply low-ranking members of the Poguenoscenti who resent the managers
above them in the World of Work, who control their lives.

Not all control freaks operate in a managerial environment. Far from it.
Most of them are "little" people who try and big themselves up by
manipulating others to pander to their will.

Vince

Re: The Political Compass

Legg inn av Vince » 29 aug 2006 21:38:49

Spencer and Vince share a common ("joint") fault, a kinship neither would
care to admit, an absolute inability to laugh at themselves,




I offer viKnce in refutation

ask Mr skelton

I'm a poor typing poor spelling pedantic academic. One of my students
wrote that That I had "dilutions" of grandeur



Viknce

hippo

Re: The Political Compass

Legg inn av hippo » 29 aug 2006 21:46:29

"La N" wrote in message

"hippo" wrote in message

[.]

I neither like the idea of being controlled or that I could control
somebody. Or, otherwise stated, I don't like to be told how to think or
feel, what I should be thinking or feeling, nor would I expect others to
have to think or feel such as I do. Ick.

I'm the same. -the Troll

Renia

Re: The Political Compass

Legg inn av Renia » 29 aug 2006 21:54:37

Vince wrote:

Spencer and Vince share a common ("joint") fault, a kinship neither
would care to admit, an absolute inability to laugh at themselves,





I offer viKnce in refutation

ask Mr skelton

I'm a poor typing poor spelling pedantic academic. One of my students
wrote that That I had "dilutions" of grandeur

That's a good one.




Viknce

hippo

Re: The Political Compass

Legg inn av hippo » 29 aug 2006 21:59:00

"Renia" wrote in message

hippo wrote:

"Renia" wrote in message

[.]

It's the Meme effect. Copying by example.


In a way. It's the reason for it that is important. The extreme of the
personality type lack internal evaluative systems for personal/human
relationships so everything must be adopted/learned from outside. Another
way to look at it is they entirely lack empathy and instead work from
mental behavioral lists by trying to match them up with situations. It's
a very shallow, single dimensional arrangement of which they are unaware.
Having no real understanding of themselves or other people, they think
all of us operate the same way. -the Troll

Sounds like Asperger's, or autism, to some extent. "Normal" people learn
their culture by copying what everyone else does, primarly at first, their
parents and elder siblings, later, their peers. Presumably, "normal"
people have the benefit of evaluation why, and in what circumstances they
do or say particular things, even if subconsciously. Perhaps the autistic
lack this internal evaluative system, which hinders the value of the
copying mechanism they need in order to get on in life.

One I know asked his senior employee (a woman I knew) why he had a 200
percent employee turnover in a single year. He truly didn't understand that
he was an uncaring bastard to work for. -the Troll

Paul C

Re: ROYAL BASTARDS LIVING TODAY?

Legg inn av Paul C » 29 aug 2006 22:32:31

On 29 Aug 2006 11:03:02 -0700, "celia" <c_a_blay@hotmail.com> wrote:
Ten minutes ago a friend told me that she is illegitimate.
I can't see that it makes an iota of difference to who she
is or how I feel about her.
It's the 21st. c., the sins of the fathers are no longer visited upon
the children.

The only person who truly cares is D Spencer Hines.

Methinks he doth protest too much.

Turenne

Re: Two Maud Banesters

Legg inn av Turenne » 29 aug 2006 22:56:08

I noticed a reference to Banaster heraldry on the following:
http://www.heraldsnet.org/saitou/parker/Jpindex.htm I don't know if
it is of any interest - or relevence.
How does Banastre Tarleton fit in to the family you are researching?

Ken Ozanne wrote:
James, John, others,
Scots Peerage Vol 1 p 504 identifies the two Mauds. Is there a website
for corrections?

Best,
Ken

On 28/8/2006 12:29, "GEN-MEDIEVAL-D-request@rootsweb.com"
GEN-MEDIEVAL-D-request@rootsweb.com> wrote:

From: Jwc1870@aol.com
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 09:43:13 EDT
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Two Maud Banesters ? wifes of William Comyn and William Hastings

Dear John R, Claudius, Will, Douglas and others,
In
Carl Boyer III`s book Medieval English Ancestors of Certain Americans p 58 He
indicates that William Comyn died before 1140 and his wife Maud, daughter of
Thurstan Banester or Basset married 2nd William de Hastings. She is known to
have
had four sons of this marriage, William, Richard, Osbert and Walter Comyn. We
know Richard recieved a grant of land in about 1144 (Northallerton Castle)
perhaps in conjunction with his marriage to Hextilda of Tynedale. As He
recieved
a grant of land, We know He was born not later than 1123. If He were the
oldest son or a twin, then his mother was born not later than 1109. In Douglas
Richardson`s Magna Carta Ancestry under Elsing, We find William de Hastings
b
abt 1163 -d 1226, son of William Hastings and Maud, daughter of Thurstan
Banister recieved livery of his mother`s manor of Aston. Warwickshire in 1222.
If
the lady had just died, She could be no less than 113 years old, which is
incredibly unlikely. Unless Maud Banester the wife of Comyn was the aunt of
Maud
Banester the wife of Hastings, each the daughter of a successive Thurston
Banester, it`s unlikely the two familes were closely related.
Sincerely,

James W Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA

hippo

Re: The Political Compass

Legg inn av hippo » 29 aug 2006 23:02:16

"D. Patterson" wrote in message

hippo wrote:

[.]

I've long suspected he was being used in the same role in which he was
used as commander of FUSAG.


As a make-believe threat to the Soviets? -the Troll

Yes, a threat, make-believe or not. There were a number of American POWs
moving with and/or behind the Soviet frontlines and who were not detained
by the Soviet forces as were thousands of others elsewhere. After returing
to Allied lines, many of them reported a remarkably consistent experience
of having Soviet officers matter of factly telling the American POWs that
the Soviet forces were to continue on and "liberate" the rest of Western
Europe from their former allies just as soon as the Germans surrendered.
Of course, for many good and sufficient reasons, such an event never
occurred. However, there are many reports which appear to indicate that
some of the Soviet armies had been given reason to believe they were to
continue their offensives into Western Europe against the Americans,
British, and French. It is this Soviet posture of anticipated belligerance
which also played such a key role in a variety of other incidents in the
months preceding and following the German surrender, including the Soviet
detention of thousands of American and British Commonwealth POWs detained
in the Soviet zones. The incident with Patton making a provocative
telephone call which he absolutely had to know was being recorded by
Soviet intelligence seems to have been quite a good opportunity to send a
signal to Stalin while retaining plausible deniability for diplomatic
purposes. Patton had always relished his role as an actor, and this
incident could have been perhaps his final, most useful and successful,
and most unselfish and unsung role as an actor and a general.

Hmmm, a Soviet attitude I hadn't heard before, thanks.

I don't see Georgie intentionally in the role you suggest. He had been
careless enough in the past and his attitude towards the Soviets was well
enough known without the phone call. -the Troll

Tony Hoskins

Re: Descendants of the Illegitimate Sons and Daughters of th

Legg inn av Tony Hoskins » 29 aug 2006 23:35:04

Hello Tim,

"I wonder, does William the Bastard come under the heading of Royal
Bastards?"

No, the prerequisite is descent from a bastard child or grandchild of a
monarch of Britain. Monarchs themselves (unless one were to be also a
bastard of another) are ineligible. But, Henry I's multitude, Henry
II's, Charles II's etc., etc., would be ideal. Also, the Beauforts, as
born illegitimate grandchildren of Edward III, would be fine.

Tony

Gjest

Re: 1479 Dispensation, Edmund Hastings and Mary Greystoke

Legg inn av Gjest » 29 aug 2006 23:41:02

In a message dated 8/29/06 2:10:22 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Therav3 writes:

<< 15 Katherine Stafford. Born in 1370. >>

What is the source for this exact birthyear ?
Thanks
Will

Gjest

Re: 1479 Dispensation, Edmund Hastings and Mary Greystoke

Legg inn av Gjest » 29 aug 2006 23:55:03

Dear Will,

The 1370 date is a working estimate (intended to have been deleted from
the AT before posting - dispensa mea). We know Edmund Stafford (a younger but
not youngest son) was born 2 March 1377/78, and on the flip side we know
Katherine Stafford's 2nd son William was born 16 Oct 1396.

I have Michael de la Pole and Katherine Stafford being married (or
contracted to be married) before 23 Nov 1383. I think she might have been born
somewhat before 1370, and not much later than 1370. The date is a conjecture,
and should read "ca. 1370" (or better, should be blank, for the moment).

Cheers,

John

Gjest

Re: 1479 Dispensation, Edmund Hastings and Mary Greystoke

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 aug 2006 00:00:03

In a message dated 8/29/06 2:50:21 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Therav3 writes:

<< I have Michael de la Pole and Katherine Stafford being married (or
contracted to be married) before 23 Nov 1383. I think she might have been born
somewhat before 1370, and not much later than 1370. >>

As boundaries on her age, all I have is that her father Hugh was born 1341/2
and died 10 Oct 1386, but his wife predeceased him and was died by 6 Apr 1386.
This wife, Philippa de Beaumont, has no useful boundaries on her age to help
in this respect but she was certainly born by 1351.

Katherine's husband Michael de la Pole was born in 1367 per Leo.

I don't have anything else that helps us pin down Katherine's birth, so right
now I have the rather wide and unuseful 1358/82.

Will

Turenne

Re: Two Maud Banesters ? wifes of William Comyn and William

Legg inn av Turenne » 30 aug 2006 00:03:14

I noticed a reference to Banaster heraldry on the following:
http://www.heraldsnet.org/saitou/parker/Jpindex.htm I don't know if
it is of any interest - or relevence.
How does Banastre Tarleton fit in, (if at all) to the family you are
researching?

John P. Ravilious wrote:
Dear Tim,

Thanks for your post, and the detailed feedback re: KSB K-R's
text (especially as regards William 'III' de Hastings).

Overall, she gives many more details in certain areas than I
show in my database,, which are of course welcome. I will look later
into the apparent chronology based on her 'version' vs. mine, esp. as
regards casting William 'VI' de Hastings as a descendant of William
'III'.

Cheers,

John




Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote:
In message of 28 Aug, Therav3@aol.com wrote:

The problem appears to be that the office of hereditary steward of St.
Edmundsbury (and that of despenser, evidently appended to it) did not pass in
anything approaching a direct line, at least until the death of William de
Hastings (d. bef 28 Jan 1226; husband of Margaret le Bigod). Following his
death, his son Henry de Hastings held Ashill by serjeanty of the king's
despenser [1226/8 and 1236, as given in DD 507, citing Fees, 387, 402, 592].

The following chart reflects the relationships of the 'hereditary'
stewards of St. Edmundsbury, starting with Maurice fitz Walter. He was
succeeded by his nephew Ralph de Hastings <2>, then successively by HIS
nephew William (fitz William fitz Robert, <III> below), HIS cousin William
(fitz Hugh de Hastings, <IV> below), and then HIS nephew Henry de
Hastings <V>. I mark Thomas de Hastings with the number <V> in the chart
below, as he was involved in securing his nephew Henry's rights as steward:
according to my notes,

" On 1 April 1182 Thomas de Hastings appeared before the Abbot of
St. Edmund's, leading 'his nephew Henry de Hastings', who was not
yet a knight, and demanded for him his hereditary office of dapifer
of the Abbey . " [Kay Allen, citing Jocelin de Brakelond; Eyton;
and Clark]

I will provide a more detailed pedigree in a followup post, providing the
documentation I have to date on the matter.

Cheers,

John *



Walter fitz Other = Beatrice
castellan of Windsor, d. aft 1099 I
tenant at Domesday, 1086> I
________________________________________I_______________________________
I I I I I ___________ I
William Gerald Rainald I I I I I
constable castellan _____I Maurice = Edith Robert (fitz = NN
of of Windsor I I Walter) de I
Windsor = Nesta Hugh I Hastings I
I ________I of Little Easton I
I I I
V Robert ____________________I
___________________________I_____________
I I I
Ralph de Hastings William de Hastings Hugh de Hastings
II> despenser and steward of Little Easton of Eston Flamville
d.s.p. aft 1158 = 1) NN = 2) Juliana = Erneburga
______________I I de Flamville
I ________I__ _______I________
I I I I I I
Robert de Hastings William <sisters> William Thomas
of Little Easton <III> <IV> <V
d. ca. 1190 despenser despenser I
I fl. 1164/5 and steward I
I = Maud de V
I Banastre a quo
2) Godfrey = Alice ______________I_____ HASTINGS
de Louvain I I I of
Gissing
I Henry William
V <V> <VI
a quo steward steward
LOVAINE d.s.p. 1194 I
of Little Easton I
V
a quo
HASTINGS
of Elsing


Obviously the above may well be right, nut it then means that one or two
bits in Keats-Rohan's Domesday Descendants are wrong. Here is the full
text she wrote about the William (III) Dispencer above:

Son of William fitz Robert of Hastings, lord of Little Easton
(d.c.1162). Heir of his uncle Ralph de Hastings (d.c.1163). Royal
dispencer to Henry, who, in 1164/5, confirmed him in the office of his
paternal uncle (patruus) Ralph I of Hastings as steward of Bury St
Edmunds, an office the said Ralph had inherited from his maternal
uncle (avunculus) Maurice of Windsor. In 1166 he held five fees of
Bury St Edmunds, and half a fee de novo at Compton, Surrey, of his
kinsman William of Windsor. In 1200 William de Hastings held five
fees of Bury at Lidgate, Blunham (Bedfordshire), West Harling,
Tibenham and Gissing, in Norfolk (Jocelyn of Brakelond, 120). Before
1162 it is difficult to distinguish William from his father in public
records. Around 1224 his _descendant_ [my emphasis] William de
Hastings held the serjeanty of the king's dispencer ('tenet per
sergentiam dispensarie regis') in Norfolk and Suffolk (Fees, 346). In
1226/8 and 1236 Henry de Hastings answered for the same serjeanty at
Ashill in Wayland hundred, Norfolk (Fees, 387, 402, 593)

She concluded with this list of references: (I have had to alter the
layout slightly as she uses italics a lot in this section for which I
have substituted quote marks)

Douglas, 'Feudal Documents from Bury St Edmunds', no 89; Gervers,
'Cartulary of Knights St John', II (1996), no 10, Pipe Roll 10 Henry
II, 10-sm; Pipe Roll 11 Henry II, 63-dssm, 64-dssm, 70-ox, 75-bk; Pipe
Roll 12 Henry II, 99-dssm; 'Red Book of the Exchequer', ed Hall
(1897), pp. 315-16, 392-94, 403-7; Stenton, 'Documents illustrative of
Danelaw' (1920), no. 63.

While she does have, as in my earlier post, articles on William IV and
his father Hugo, nowhere does she say that William IV was dispencer nor
that Hugo was the son of Robert of Hastings.

Further she has separately a William de Hastings who m. Juliana daughter
of John fitz Waleran. This William she says was the son of Robert of
Hastings. She does not give any wife to the above William the
Dispensator who held that office from 1164/5 to sometime after 1200.

The William de Hastings of Little Easton, son of Robert fitz Walter, she
gives as having married Helewis de Guerres and having at least these
children (citing Cal. of Ancient Deeds, A. 13694):

Robert of Hastings
William of Hastings
Ralph of Hastings
Alexander
John
Beatrice m. (1) Gilbert Carbonel, (2) Wm de Goldingham

She says he was probably also father of Amabilis de Hastings, sister of
William [the Dispensator] and wife successively of Richard fitz Robert
Foliot and of Ralph of Exeter.

Finally she says that Helewis de Guerres m. (2) Gilbert de Picquigny and
then (3) (another) William fitz Robert (Fees, 282) and she was still
alive in the early thirteenth century.

It seems that Eyton and Keats-Rohan give very different pictures of the
various Hastingses. In view of Eyton living very much earlier and thus
with probably much less access to all the documents that are now made
public, I wonder if Eyton can still be relied on. Certainly Keats-Rohan
does not mention Eyton in her account of the Hastingses. She does
mention Sanders, of whom usually she is a great fan and says 'he is
unreliable on this family'.

I have nothing more to offer as I do not have convenient access to the
primary source material that she cites, let alone could I read it in
other then translation.

E&OE for the transcriptions.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/

John P. Ravilious

Re: Proudly Porcine Descendants of Ulf the Swineherd - PPDUS

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 30 aug 2006 01:52:57

Dear Tony, Leo, James, et al.,

In general, as has been pointed out already, the odds of
tracing a peasant-to-peasant descent (outside the rare pedigree given
in a Plea roll, of course) down to the present day ranges between the
impossible to the highly unlikely. Godgifu strength to make the
effort........

That being said, there are some well-known descents from the
not-highly-placed to the present day. The best example I can think of
is Herleve (or Arletta), and her father [allegedly, Fulbert the
'tanner' - possibly, undertaker] of Falaise. Her son William (and her
other issue, esp. Robert of Mortain) have been quite successful in
spreading her descendants across Europe, and elsewhere.

Any other candidates for required membership in the '
Worldwide Order of Numerous Descendants of European Riff-Raff ' ? If
you find one, you too can gain admission, and be recognized as a
W.O.N.D.E.R.

Cheers,

John



"Leo van de Pas" wrote:
Dear Tony,

The other frustrating reason has to be the lack of records of Ulf the
Swineherd and his descendants.
Also better medical attention bestowed upon the higher classes, the higher
classes able to move away when a plague or war approaches, poor Ulf and his
descendants must have been pretty sturdy to have produced at least some
descendants to the present.

I would love it could I find my "Ulf" living around 1300 at the same time, I
would not ignore Edward III, if I could find him. Sadly, I am sure (99%)
that I will find neither for myself.
Leo

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Hoskins" <hoskins@sonoma.lib.ca.us
To: <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au>; <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 9:58 AM
Subject: Re: Proudly Porcine Descendants of Ulf the Swineherd - PPDUS


"You think the descendants of Ulf the Swineherd are more intermarried
with their own kind, than those of Edward III?"

Excellent question, Leo, and one that in fact forces me to confess that
I think Ulf's descendants are bound, on the contrary, to be remarkably
fewer than Edward III's. Over the years I've observed that the upper
classes reproduced more "successfully" (more children lived to beget
their own children) than did the lower classes - on average. Cases in
point: the canard that since in sheer numbers indentured servants and
criminals transported to colonial Virginia were far, far more numerous
than the English gentry who settled and owned the land there, that
Americans of colonial Virginian descent are much more likely to have
humble ancestry. I say canard because, to my experience and observation,
descents from the Virginia gentry are if anything *more* common than
descents from the poor indentured and criminal classes. It's only
logical, too, to realize that in colonial Virginia during the earlier
generations men far outnumbered women; i.e. the richer men had better
odds to have a wife. Hence richer men (of higher class) probably
reproduced more numerously/successfully.

Tony

Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404

707/545-0831, ext. 562

Gjest

Re: Proudly Porcine Descendants of Ulf the Swineherd - PPDUS

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 aug 2006 02:06:06

Dear Tony, Leo and others,
Ah Yes, I recall Ulf the Swineherd.
He was married to Aethelreda , daughter of Oswin in about 1004 and had Ecgric
the Lazy, Aethelreda , Oswin the Simple, Sweyn the bald headed (from whom
most of the descents come, Aethelreda had been raped by Yngvar Skull-splitter, a
sub commander in one of King Sweyn`s hordes), Gytha , Eadgyth, Aelfric the
plougher, and Malcolm (reputedly the son of one Maelduin, a youth taken in by Ulf
at the age of 13 while wounded in an attack on the village by Malcolm II,
King of the Picts and Scots), Godgifa the lovely, raped 20 times from the age of
11. Who says beauty is not a curse ? and Hussa the over-sexed aka Hussa the
warrior, who slept his way into a third part of a manor.
Sincerely,
James W
Cummings
Dixmont,
Maine USA

Tony Hoskins

Re: Proudly Porcine Descendants of Ulf the Swineherd - PPDUS

Legg inn av Tony Hoskins » 30 aug 2006 02:07:03

"You think the descendants of Ulf the Swineherd are more intermarried
with their own kind, than those of Edward III?"

Excellent question, Leo, and one that in fact forces me to confess that
I think Ulf's descendants are bound, on the contrary, to be remarkably
fewer than Edward III's. Over the years I've observed that the upper
classes reproduced more "successfully" (more children lived to beget
their own children) than did the lower classes - on average. Cases in
point: the canard that since in sheer numbers indentured servants and
criminals transported to colonial Virginia were far, far more numerous
than the English gentry who settled and owned the land there, that
Americans of colonial Virginian descent are much more likely to have
humble ancestry. I say canard because, to my experience and observation,
descents from the Virginia gentry are if anything *more* common than
descents from the poor indentured and criminal classes. It's only
logical, too, to realize that in colonial Virginia during the earlier
generations men far outnumbered women; i.e. the richer men had better
odds to have a wife. Hence richer men (of higher class) probably
reproduced more numerously/successfully.

Tony

Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404

707/545-0831, ext. 562

Tony Hoskins

Re: Proudly Porcine Descendants of Ulf the Swineherd - PPDUS

Legg inn av Tony Hoskins » 30 aug 2006 02:16:02

Laughing out loud, John !! Very funny! Thanks. Poor Godgifa, though!

Tony

Jwc1870@aol.com> 08/29/06 05:03PM
Dear Tony, Leo and others,

Ah Yes, I recall Ulf the
Swineherd.
He was married to Aethelreda , daughter of Oswin in about 1004 and had
Ecgric
the Lazy, Aethelreda , Oswin the Simple, Sweyn the bald headed (from
whom
most of the descents come, Aethelreda had been raped by Yngvar
Skull-splitter, a
sub commander in one of King Sweyn`s hordes), Gytha , Eadgyth, Aelfric
the
plougher, and Malcolm (reputedly the son of one Maelduin, a youth taken
in by Ulf
at the age of 13 while wounded in an attack on the village by Malcolm
II,
King of the Picts and Scots), Godgifa the lovely, raped 20 times from
the age of
11. Who says beauty is not a curse ? and Hussa the over-sexed aka
Hussa the
warrior, who slept his way into a third part of a manor.
Sincerely,
James
W
Cummings

Dixmont,
Maine USA

Leo van de Pas

Re: Proudly Porcine Descendants of Ulf the Swineherd - PPDUS

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 30 aug 2006 02:21:02

Dear Tony,

The other frustrating reason has to be the lack of records of Ulf the
Swineherd and his descendants.
Also better medical attention bestowed upon the higher classes, the higher
classes able to move away when a plague or war approaches, poor Ulf and his
descendants must have been pretty sturdy to have produced at least some
descendants to the present.

I would love it could I find my "Ulf" living around 1300 at the same time, I
would not ignore Edward III, if I could find him. Sadly, I am sure (99%)
that I will find neither for myself.
Leo

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Hoskins" <hoskins@sonoma.lib.ca.us>
To: <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au>; <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 9:58 AM
Subject: Re: Proudly Porcine Descendants of Ulf the Swineherd - PPDUS


"You think the descendants of Ulf the Swineherd are more intermarried
with their own kind, than those of Edward III?"

Excellent question, Leo, and one that in fact forces me to confess that
I think Ulf's descendants are bound, on the contrary, to be remarkably
fewer than Edward III's. Over the years I've observed that the upper
classes reproduced more "successfully" (more children lived to beget
their own children) than did the lower classes - on average. Cases in
point: the canard that since in sheer numbers indentured servants and
criminals transported to colonial Virginia were far, far more numerous
than the English gentry who settled and owned the land there, that
Americans of colonial Virginian descent are much more likely to have
humble ancestry. I say canard because, to my experience and observation,
descents from the Virginia gentry are if anything *more* common than
descents from the poor indentured and criminal classes. It's only
logical, too, to realize that in colonial Virginia during the earlier
generations men far outnumbered women; i.e. the richer men had better
odds to have a wife. Hence richer men (of higher class) probably
reproduced more numerously/successfully.

Tony

Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404

707/545-0831, ext. 562

Gjest

Re: Proudly Porcine Descendants of Ulf the Swineherd - PPDUS

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 aug 2006 02:25:03

Dear Tony,
Yes, indeed. Poor Godgifu, Viking plunderers, village boys,
milord and his sons, Scots marauders and the monks that were less than serious
about their vows and not actively gay... and frankly her own brothers with
too much beer in their bellies, especially Hussa.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

Tony Hoskins

Re: Proudly Porcine Descendants of Ulf the Swineherd - PPDUS

Legg inn av Tony Hoskins » 30 aug 2006 02:40:04

"especially Hussa."

Not the lurker down at the Mangled Helm known as
"Hussa-the-Hussies-Hussar"?

Gjest

Re: Proudly Porcine Descendants of Ulf the Swineherd - PPDUS

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 aug 2006 03:01:02

Dear Tony,
No. Hussa the Over-sexed Aka Hussa the warrior. He impressed
milord so much with his skill with a quarterstaff that He was allowed to
become one of the manor`s men-at -arms. He got more time to drink and carouse
than did his brothers.

Sincerely,

James W Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA

La N

Re: The Political Compass

Legg inn av La N » 30 aug 2006 04:26:46

"hippo" <hippo@south-sudan.net> wrote in message
news:12f99t7l2h5o82d@corp.supernews.com...
"La N" wrote in message

"hippo" wrote in message

[.]

I neither like the idea of being controlled or that I could control
somebody. Or, otherwise stated, I don't like to be told how to think or
feel, what I should be thinking or feeling, nor would I expect others to
have to think or feel such as I do. Ick.

I'm the same. -the Troll


That's the Hipster I've come to know and lurv! Don't ever change.

And ... a High-Five!

- nil

hippo

Re: The Political Compass

Legg inn av hippo » 30 aug 2006 05:45:45

"La N" wrote in message

"hippo" wrote in message

[.]

I neither like the idea of being controlled or that I could control
somebody. Or, otherwise stated, I don't like to be told how to think or
feel, what I should be thinking or feeling, nor would I expect others to
have to think or feel such as I do. Ick.

I'm the same. -the Troll


That's the Hipster I've come to know and lurv! Don't ever change.

And ... a High-Five!

Chuckle, thanks and the same back to ya. :^) -the Troll

D. Patterson

Re: The Political Compass

Legg inn av D. Patterson » 30 aug 2006 07:03:57

hippo wrote:

"D. Patterson" wrote in message


hippo wrote:


[.]


I've long suspected he was being used in the same role in which he was
used as commander of FUSAG.


As a make-believe threat to the Soviets? -the Troll


Yes, a threat, make-believe or not. There were a number of American POWs
moving with and/or behind the Soviet frontlines and who were not detained
by the Soviet forces as were thousands of others elsewhere. After returing
to Allied lines, many of them reported a remarkably consistent experience
of having Soviet officers matter of factly telling the American POWs that
the Soviet forces were to continue on and "liberate" the rest of Western
Europe from their former allies just as soon as the Germans surrendered.
Of course, for many good and sufficient reasons, such an event never
occurred. However, there are many reports which appear to indicate that
some of the Soviet armies had been given reason to believe they were to
continue their offensives into Western Europe against the Americans,
British, and French. It is this Soviet posture of anticipated belligerance
which also played such a key role in a variety of other incidents in the
months preceding and following the German surrender, including the Soviet
detention of thousands of American and British Commonwealth POWs detained
in the Soviet zones. The incident with Patton making a provocative
telephone call which he absolutely had to know was being recorded by
Soviet intelligence seems to have been quite a good opportunity to send a
signal to Stalin while retaining plausible deniability for diplomatic
purposes. Patton had always relished his role as an actor, and this
incident could have been perhaps his final, most useful and successful,
and most unselfish and unsung role as an actor and a general.


Hmmm, a Soviet attitude I hadn't heard before, thanks.

I don't see Georgie intentionally in the role you suggest. He had been
careless enough in the past and his attitude towards the Soviets was well
enough known without the phone call. -the Troll




Which is exactly why using Patton in such a role to bluff the Soviets
would have been quite believeable to the Soviets, just as FUSAG had been
believable to the Germans. The Soviets and the Germans were great
believers in elaborate duplicity. When Patton was relieved of command of
the Third Army, the Soviets could see the general officer who most
worried them with regard to intent was no longer in a position to
immediately lead an offensive against them with the single largest and
most powerful U.S. field army in Europe. If the Soviets did not moderate
their posture sufficiently to stand down from an immediate offensive
role, Patton could have been returned to command the Third Army or
placed in command of the 12th Army Group in the eyes of the Soviet
leadership. Using Patton to play a role and bluff by simply espousing
his already public views can only be convincing from the Soviet
viewpoint, which was too suspicious to accept the idea that the
Anglo-American leadership would distrust Patton enough to discard his
services. Stalin had to decide between rejecting the appearance of an
American overture for peaceful relations and proceed with the invasion
of Western Europe with all of the great hazards it obviously entailed,
or Stalin had to consider the possiblity the Americans were hinting at
the hazard of a total war as described by Patton in the event Soviet
forces proceeded with further preparations for an invasion of Western
Europe despite all othe risks and hazards such an invasion would entail.

Fred J. McCall

Re: The Political Compass

Legg inn av Fred J. McCall » 30 aug 2006 07:34:01

Grey Satterfield <gsatterfield@cox.net> wrote:

:On 8/28/06 2:01 PM, in article 65HIg.452$15.5009@eagle.america.net, "D.
:Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote:
:> "hippo" <hippo@south-sudan.net> wrote in message
:> news:12f6e4h65oe8s5f@corp.supernews.com...
:>>
:>> "D. Spencer Hines" wrote in message
:>>
:>>> The chart doesn't even MEASURE "Conservatism" -- you cretin.
:>>>
:>>> Learn To Read Charts Instead Of Babbling Uniformed Gibberish About
:>>> Them -- Sans Benefit Of Understanding & Savvy.
:>
:> <baldersnip>
:>
:
:> "Hippo" The Dense STILL doesn't understand the chart.
:>
:> It measures _Neo-Liberalism_ in the Upper Right Quadrant, as defined in the
:> instructions and analysis for the test -- NOT "Conservatism".
:>
:> <http://www.politicalcompass.org/>
:>
:> The test was designed by BRITS.
:>
:> "Hippo" needs to study GLADSTONE.
:>
:> But "Hippo" is so stupid he runs to a dictionary to try to wriggle out of
:> his Egregious Gaffe, rather than just carefully reading and comprehending
:> [hard for him] the instructions and analysis for the test -- written by its
:> CREATORS.
:>
:> This is what I mean by "The Uneducated Person". "Hippo" is a poster boy for
:> them -- even though he did scrape through college ---- late in years, after
:> Army service as a technician.
:>
:> He is ALSO so wobbly and indecisive that he ORIGINALLY said the test had
:> gotten him pegged just right -- but NOW says it's a bad test, because he is
:> not RELIGIOUS.

We were talking about two different tests, you fucking imbecile. If
you can't count above one, try taking off your shoes next time.

:> What An Imbecile!
:>
:> No wonder the Rampant Pogue "Hippo" got pushed out of the senior management
:> of the Export-Import Company he TELLS us he and his family founded.
:>
:> Hilarious!
:
:To think that when I wrote about Spencer having tried WAY to hard in
:responding to one of hippo's posts, I had not yet seen the foregoing.
:Goodness, it doesn't get any better than this, Esmeralda (or something like
:that)! :)

Yeah. It's pretty bad when the best thing that can be said about the
most illustrious part of someone's career is "fucking ANALyst!", which
is the ultimate sin to someone who has to actually accomplish
something.

If you ain't an operator, you ain't shit.

--
"Most people don't realize it, but ninety percent of morality is based
on comfort. Incinerate hundreds of people from thirty thousand feet
up and you'll sleep like a baby afterward. Kill one person with a
bayonet and your dreams will never be sweet again."
-- John Rain, "Rain Storm"

hippo

Re: The Political Compass

Legg inn av hippo » 30 aug 2006 07:36:03

"D. Patterson" wrote in message

hippo wrote:

[.]

Hmmm, a Soviet attitude I hadn't heard before, thanks.

I don't see Georgie intentionally in the role you suggest. He had been
careless enough in the past and his attitude towards the Soviets was well
enough known without the phone call. -the Troll

Which is exactly why using Patton in such a role to bluff the Soviets
would have been quite believeable to the Soviets, just as FUSAG had been
believable to the Germans. The Soviets and the Germans were great
believers in elaborate duplicity. When Patton was relieved of command of
the Third Army, the Soviets could see the general officer who most worried
them with regard to intent was no longer in a position to immediately lead
an offensive against them with the single largest and most powerful U.S.
field army in Europe. If the Soviets did not moderate their posture
sufficiently to stand down from an immediate offensive role, Patton could
have been returned to command the Third Army or placed in command of the
12th Army Group in the eyes of the Soviet leadership. Using Patton to play
a role and bluff by simply espousing his already public views can only be
convincing from the Soviet viewpoint, which was too suspicious to accept
the idea that the Anglo-American leadership would distrust Patton enough
to discard his services. Stalin had to decide between rejecting the
appearance of an American overture for peaceful relations and proceed with
the invasion of Western Europe with all of the great hazards it obviously
entailed, or Stalin had to consider the possiblity the Americans were
hinting at the hazard of a total war as described by Patton in the event
Soviet forces proceeded with further preparations for an invasion of
Western Europe despite all othe risks and hazards such an invasion would
entail.

Very interesting but Stalin knew we had the bomb even before Yalta and the
long range bombers to deliver them. I don't think he seriously entertained
the idea of continuing the war. -the Troll

Billzz

Re: The Political Compass

Legg inn av Billzz » 30 aug 2006 07:46:18

"D. Patterson" <nye@fidalgo.net> wrote in message
news:44F52A4D.5050607@fidalgo.net...

hippo wrote:

"D. Patterson" wrote in message


hippo wrote:


[.]


I've long suspected he was being used in the same role in which he was
used as commander of FUSAG.


As a make-believe threat to the Soviets? -the Troll


Yes, a threat, make-believe or not. There were a number of American POWs
moving with and/or behind the Soviet frontlines and who were not detained
by the Soviet forces as were thousands of others elsewhere. After
returing to Allied lines, many of them reported a remarkably consistent
experience of having Soviet officers matter of factly telling the
American POWs that the Soviet forces were to continue on and "liberate"
the rest of Western Europe from their former allies just as soon as the
Germans surrendered. Of course, for many good and sufficient reasons,
such an event never occurred. However, there are many reports which
appear to indicate that some of the Soviet armies had been given reason
to believe they were to continue their offensives into Western Europe
against the Americans, British, and French. It is this Soviet posture of
anticipated belligerance which also played such a key role in a variety
of other incidents in the months preceding and following the German
surrender, including the Soviet detention of thousands of American and
British Commonwealth POWs detained in the Soviet zones. The incident with
Patton making a provocative telephone call which he absolutely had to
know was being recorded by Soviet intelligence seems to have been quite a
good opportunity to send a signal to Stalin while retaining plausible
deniability for diplomatic purposes. Patton had always relished his role
as an actor, and this incident could have been perhaps his final, most
useful and successful, and most unselfish and unsung role as an actor and
a general.


Hmmm, a Soviet attitude I hadn't heard before, thanks.

I don't see Georgie intentionally in the role you suggest. He had been
careless enough in the past and his attitude towards the Soviets was well
enough known without the phone call. -the Troll

Which is exactly why using Patton in such a role to bluff the Soviets
would have been quite believeable to the Soviets, just as FUSAG had been
believable to the Germans. The Soviets and the Germans were great
believers in elaborate duplicity. When Patton was relieved of command of
the Third Army, the Soviets could see the general officer who most worried
them with regard to intent was no longer in a position to immediately lead
an offensive against them with the single largest and most powerful U.S.
field army in Europe. If the Soviets did not moderate their posture
sufficiently to stand down from an immediate offensive role, Patton could
have been returned to command the Third Army or placed in command of the
12th Army Group in the eyes of the Soviet leadership. Using Patton to play
a role and bluff by simply espousing his already public views can only be
convincing from the Soviet viewpoint, which was too suspicious to accept
the idea that the Anglo-American leadership would distrust Patton enough
to discard his services. Stalin had to decide between rejecting the
appearance of an American overture for peaceful relations and proceed with
the invasion of Western Europe with all of the great hazards it obviously
entailed, or Stalin had to consider the possiblity the Americans were
hinting at the hazard of a total war as described by Patton in the event
Soviet forces proceeded with further preparations for an invasion of
Western Europe despite all othe risks and hazards such an invasion would
entail.

Well, I'm unsure that Stalin paid any attention to any general. He did not
believe his own generals, when they told him that Germany was attacking the
Soviet Union, and he waited a long time to react, based upon other input.
Russia, historically, has been a few people, in a large land, attacked by
outsiders. Their post-war strategy was to encircle themselves with
satellites. People who know something (not me) say they had a pure
defensive strategy. Offense, to carry communism, was to be done by client
states, well away from the USSR. WWII Marshall Stalin, even knowing who
General Patton was? Probably not.

Vince

Re: The Political Compass

Legg inn av Vince » 30 aug 2006 12:47:27

hippo wrote:
"D. Patterson" wrote in message

hippo wrote:

[.]

Hmmm, a Soviet attitude I hadn't heard before, thanks.

I don't see Georgie intentionally in the role you suggest. He had been
careless enough in the past and his attitude towards the Soviets was well
enough known without the phone call. -the Troll

Which is exactly why using Patton in such a role to bluff the Soviets
would have been quite believeable to the Soviets, just as FUSAG had been
believable to the Germans. The Soviets and the Germans were great
believers in elaborate duplicity. When Patton was relieved of command of
the Third Army, the Soviets could see the general officer who most worried
them with regard to intent was no longer in a position to immediately lead
an offensive against them with the single largest and most powerful U.S.
field army in Europe. If the Soviets did not moderate their posture
sufficiently to stand down from an immediate offensive role, Patton could
have been returned to command the Third Army or placed in command of the
12th Army Group in the eyes of the Soviet leadership. Using Patton to play
a role and bluff by simply espousing his already public views can only be
convincing from the Soviet viewpoint, which was too suspicious to accept
the idea that the Anglo-American leadership would distrust Patton enough
to discard his services. Stalin had to decide between rejecting the
appearance of an American overture for peaceful relations and proceed with
the invasion of Western Europe with all of the great hazards it obviously
entailed, or Stalin had to consider the possiblity the Americans were
hinting at the hazard of a total war as described by Patton in the event
Soviet forces proceeded with further preparations for an invasion of
Western Europe despite all othe risks and hazards such an invasion would
entail.

Very interesting but Stalin knew we had the bomb even before Yalta and the
long range bombers to deliver them. I don't think he seriously entertained
the idea of continuing the war. -the Troll

Worth remembering that he had already gotten almost everything out of
the war that he could have hoped for. He ahd eaten a big meal and was
trying to digest it.

Vince

Fred J. McCall

Re: The Political Compass

Legg inn av Fred J. McCall » 30 aug 2006 15:33:50

"hippo" <hippo@south-sudan.net> wrote:

:You'd be wrong about the shtick. What little humor he owns is ponderous and
:so out of place it is obvious. No, he really thinks he is a superior being
:and resents that his abilities are constantly being ignored or denigrated by
:envious inferiors and inferior superiors. His sort make excellent field
:commanders in war.

Poppycock! He's a fucking ANALyst.

:They are totally goal oriented and are willing to
:sacrifice themselves,

No.

:and all of their men,

Yes. And this mix is why they're typically lousy field commanders.
Their men don't respect them and, when it comes down to it, won't
follow them.

--
Wheresoe’er ye be death will overtake you,
though ye were in lofty towers. -- Koran

La N

Re: The Political Compass

Legg inn av La N » 30 aug 2006 15:35:01

"Fred J. McCall" <fmccall@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:v88bf2tr6luns4fugqtfvlo8frtt22500m@4ax.com...
"hippo" <hippo@south-sudan.net> wrote:

:You'd be wrong about the shtick. What little humor he owns is ponderous
and
:so out of place it is obvious. No, he really thinks he is a superior
being
:and resents that his abilities are constantly being ignored or denigrated
by
:envious inferiors and inferior superiors. His sort make excellent field
:commanders in war.

Poppycock! He's a fucking ANALyst.

:They are totally goal oriented and are willing to
:sacrifice themselves,

No.

:and all of their men,

Yes. And this mix is why they're typically lousy field commanders.
Their men don't respect them and, when it comes down to it, won't
follow them.


Sounds like he was lucky he wasn't fragged.

- nilita

Brad Verity

Re: 1479 Dispensation, Edmund Hastings and Mary Greystoke

Legg inn av Brad Verity » 30 aug 2006 16:35:49

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

As boundaries on her age, all I have is that her father Hugh was born 1341/2
and died 10 Oct 1386, but his wife predeceased him and was died by 6 Apr 1386.
This wife, Philippa de Beaumont, has no useful boundaries on her age to help
in this respect but she was certainly born by 1351.

Dear Will,

Philippa Beauchamp, countess of Stafford, was born by 1343. She was
the third daughter of Thomas Beauchamp, 11th Earl of Warwick, and his
four eldest daughters were born by the following year.

From Kenneth B. McFarlane, 'Nobility of Later Medieval England'
(Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1973), p. 196: "In 1344, having no cash to

spare, he [Earl Thomas] made an enfeoffment of lands to trustees to
raise some f2,700 to provide portions for his four eldest daughters--in
descending amounts. The eldest, Elizabeth, was to have f1,200, Maud
and Philippa 1,000 marks each, and Katherine a mere f200. Yet in 1353
when he actually contracted to give Philippa in marriage to the Earl of
Stafford's heir, instead of 1,000 marks he offered f2,000, exactly
three times as much. Crecy and Calais had intervened."

Cheers, -------Brad

hippo

Re: The Political Compass

Legg inn av hippo » 30 aug 2006 17:06:29

"Vince" wrote in message

hippo wrote:

[.]

Very interesting but Stalin knew we had the bomb even before Yalta and
the long range bombers to deliver them. I don't think he seriously
entertained the idea of continuing the war. -the Troll

Worth remembering that he had already gotten almost everything out of the
war that he could have hoped for. He ahd eaten a big meal and was trying
to digest it.

Yup. -the Troll

hippo

Re: The Political Compass

Legg inn av hippo » 30 aug 2006 17:11:37

"Fred J. McCall" wrote in message

"hippo" wrote:

:You'd be wrong about the shtick. What little humor he owns is ponderous
and
:so out of place it is obvious. No, he really thinks he is a superior
being
:and resents that his abilities are constantly being ignored or denigrated
by
:envious inferiors and inferior superiors. His sort make excellent field
:commanders in war.

Poppycock! He's a fucking ANALyst.

I'm talking about the type, not DSH here. I agree about the caps.

:They are totally goal oriented and are willing to
:sacrifice themselves,

No.

History say differently.

:and all of their men,

Yes. And this mix is why they're typically lousy field commanders.
Their men don't respect them and, when it comes down to it, won't
follow them.

Patton and Rommel were both respected if not loved because they almost
always won. Soldiers respect a winner, even if they are pricks to work
for. -the Troll

Patricia Junkin

Re: More on the Zouche Baron's

Legg inn av Patricia Junkin » 30 aug 2006 18:00:03

1570 EDWARD LA ZOUCHE or ZOWCHE College: TRINITY Entered: Easter, 1570
Born: 1556 More Information: Matric. Fell.-Com. from TRINITY , Easter,
1570. Doubtless s. and h. of George, 10th Baron Zouche, of Harringworth. B.
1556. M.A. (Hon.) 1571. Succeeded as 11th Baron Zouche, June 30, 1569. Adm.
at Gray's Inn, 1575. Lived abroad, 1587-93. Envoy extraordinary to James VI
of Scotland, 1593-4. Deputy-Governor of Guernsey, 1600-1. President of
Wales, 1602-15. Commissioner for the Treasury, 1612. Member of the Council
of Virginia, 1609, and of New England, 1620. Lord Warden of the Cinque
Ports, 1615-24. Patron of Ben Jonson and other poets. Married (1) Eleanor,
dau. of Sir John Zouche; (2) Sarah, dau. of Sir James Harington, of Exton.
Died Aug. 1625, s.p.m. (D.N.B.; Nichols, III. 1146.) ..
Cambridge University Alumni, 1261-1900
http://search.ancestry.com

This Edward lost a fortune in a venture to America.


According to a record I copied in England from "The Minutes of the Evidence
Given Before the Committee of Privileges to Whom the Petition of Sir Cecil
Bishop of Parham Park in Co. of Sussex" George is probably the son of
Richard sum to Parliam; rolls of 5E6

Pat
----------
From: WJhonson@aol.com
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: More on the Zouche Baron's
Date: Tue, 29, 2006, 9:57 PM


In a book "The Notices of the family of Welby", which is in google books, I
read that John, 8the Baron Zouche of Harryngworth had married as his second
wife Susan Welby dau of William Welby of Halsted, co Lincoln

They next state that John's grandson George Zouche married Margaret Welby dau
of William Welby, Esq of Molton, co Lincoln

They don't give a specific father to George, and they don't mention how, or
if, Margaret Welby is related to Susan Welby.

So I went fishing.

Leo's website is silent on any "George Zouche" but
http://www.tudorplace.com.ar
tells us that George, 10th Baron Zouche of Harryngworth who married Margeret
Welby, was the son of Richard the 9th Baron Zouche d 22 Jul 1552

George b abt 1526 Harryngworth d 19 Jun 1569
and had married Margaret about 1554

Their son was Edward 11th Baron Zouche of Harryngworth b 6 Jun 1556 d 18 Aug
1625 Bramshill House who married Eleanor Zouche dau of Sir John Zouche of
Codnor by his wife Eleanor Whalley

After his first wife Eleanor died (stinnet tells us she was buried 3 May
1611), this Edward Zouche married secondly Oct 1611 to Susan Harrington dau of
Sir
James Harrington of Eton

Leo DOES have descendents from this family, as he is showing the very
curiously-named "Zouche Tate". Checking stirnet
http://www.stirnet.com/HTML/genie/briti ... ouche2.htm
we see that Zouche Tate was the son of Sir William Tate by his wife Elizabeth
Zouche, herself dau of Edward 11th Baron Zouche of Harryngworth by his wife
Eleanor Zouche.

Hopefully this addition to Leo's database can lead to some interesting new
ancestors for this American-immigrant family.

Will Johnson

Peter

Re: The Political Compass

Legg inn av Peter » 30 aug 2006 18:43:40

On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 15:58:27 GMT, "TOliver" <toliverjrFIX@Hot.rr.com>
wrote:


I must admit to enjoying a substantial amount of the material, from mostly
misinterpreted to outright balderdash, which Spencer posts.

Many others don't find themselves able to share your enjoyment at the
drivel Hines pollutes a large number of NG's with.

I find it difficult to stomach Spencer's all too easy and oft resort to nasty
insult (which in his case, a man entirely devoid, apparently, of anything
resembling a sense of humor) is simple self-destruction.

I suspect he is a psycopath. Do you agree?

Spencer and Vince share a common ("joint") fault, a kinship neither would
care to admit, an absolute inability to laugh at themselves, an offense for
which one establishes self-guilt and for which there seems little cure or
even palliative. I suspect that there is a punitive side to the fault,
however, the inevitable self-punishment which descends upon the most
narcissist of us during some random glance at the mirror.

Hines, self guilt? - I think not
In Spencer's case, as quick as he is to retort/riposte etc., to criticism of
some matters, he's desperately silent in the face of dozens of quite
offensive (and likely largely inaccurate) posts concerning his naval
service.

What leads you to say what has been posted about Hines naval "Career"
is inaccurate - what has been posted may be offensive (to Hines), but
that doesn't make the posts inaccurate. Do you have first hand
knowledge of Hines naval career?

--
Peter

D Spencer Hines est a deficio miles militis quod stultus

La N

Psychopath? Re: The Political Compass

Legg inn av La N » 30 aug 2006 20:32:48

"Peter" <usenetINVALID@nidum.plus.com> wrote in message
news:h0jbf21h510btg6l2tssc08iffuumvrlib@4ax.com...
On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 15:58:27 GMT, "TOliver" <toliverjrFIX@Hot.rr.com
wrote:


I must admit to enjoying a substantial amount of the material, from mostly
misinterpreted to outright balderdash, which Spencer posts.

Many others don't find themselves able to share your enjoyment at the
drivel Hines pollutes a large number of NG's with.

I find it difficult to stomach Spencer's all too easy and oft resort to
nasty
insult (which in his case, a man entirely devoid, apparently, of anything
resembling a sense of humor) is simple self-destruction.

I suspect he is a psycopath. Do you agree?



Now, that's an interesting idea. Let's see if your assessment of Hines as
psychopath bears some consideration. Does the following describe our Hines?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopath
What is a psychopath?
A psychopath is defined as having no concern for the feelings of others and
a complete disregard for any sense of social obligation. They seem
egocentric and lacking insight and any sense of responsibility or
consequence. Their emotions are thought to be superficial and shallow, if
they exist at all. They are considered callous, manipulative and incapable
of forming lasting relationships, let alone of any kind of love. It is
thought that any emotions which the true psychopath exhibits are the fruits
of watching and mimicking other people's emotions. They show poor impulse
control and a low tolerance for frustration and aggression. They have no
empathy, remorse, anxiety or guilt in relation to their behavior. In short,
they truly are devoid of conscience.

Most studies of the psychopath have taken place among prison populations,
though it has often been suggested that the psychopath is just as likely to
sit on a Board of Directors as behind bars, concealing his true nature
behind a well crafted "Mask of Sanity" (also the title of the one of the
first definitive studies of psychopathy, written by Hervey M. Cleckley in
1941.)

Cleckley defined psychopathy thus:[7]

1.. Superficial charm and average intelligence.
2.. Absence of delusions and other signs of irrational thinking.
3.. Absence of nervousness or neurotic manifestations.
4.. Unreliability.
5.. Untruthfulness and insincerity.
6.. Lack of remorse or shame.
7.. Antisocial behavior without apparent compunction.
8.. Poor judgement and failure to learn from experience.
9.. Pathological egocentricity and incapacity to love.
10.. General poverty in major affective reactions.
11.. Specific loss of insight.
12.. Unresponsiveness in general interpersonal relations.
13.. Fantastic and uninviting behavior with drink, and sometimes without.
14.. Suicide threats rarely carried out.
15.. Sex life impersonal, trivial, and poorly integrated.
16.. Failure to follow any life plan.
It has been shown that punishment and behavior modification techniques do
not improve the behavior of a psychopath. They have been regularly observed
to respond to both by becoming more cunning and hiding their behavior
better. It has been suggested that traditional therapeutic approaches
actually make them, if not worse, then far more adept at manipulating others
and concealing their behavior. They are generally considered to be not only
incurable but also untreatable.

Psychopaths also have a markedly distorted sense of the potential
consequences of their actions, not only for others, but also for themselves.
They do not, for example, deeply recognize the risk of being caught,
disbelieved or injured as a result of their behaviour

Brad Verity

Re: 1479 Dispensation, Edmund Hastings and Mary Greystoke

Legg inn av Brad Verity » 30 aug 2006 20:33:47

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

Living Descendents of Blood Royal, Vol 2, "Duncan", pg 305-307
Count d'Angerville; World Nobility, London. 1962
Calls this wife "Anne Ogle"

She is called 'Anne' in the Ogle pedigree in the 1563 Visitation of
Yorkshire, but the dispensation for her marriage to William Heron shows
that her first name was actually 'Elizabeth'.

They were the parents of Elizabeth Heron b 1422 who married 11 Jul 1438
Sir John Heron, Knt d 29 Mar 1461

Yes.

Brad thanks for this interesting quote.
On this 1353 date Leo has
"Bef 1 Mar 1351"

That date in 1351 marks the start of the negotiations for the marriage.

Cheers, ---------Brad

Gjest

Re: 1479 Dispensation, Edmund Hastings and Mary Greystoke

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 aug 2006 20:51:01

In a message dated 8/29/06 9:46:02 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
royaldescent@hotmail.com writes:

<< but her parents were Sir John
Middelton of Belsay, Northumberland (d. 1464/7) and Elizabeth Ogle,
widow of Sir William Heron of Ford (d. 1 September 1425), and eldest
daughter of Sir Robert Ogle and Maud Gray. >>

Living Descendents of Blood Royal, Vol 2, "Duncan", pg 305-307
Count d'Angerville; World Nobility, London. 1962
Calls this wife "Anne Ogle"

They were the parents of Elizabeth Heron b 1422 who married 11 Jul 1438
Sir John Heron, Knt d 29 Mar 1461

Will Johnson

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: 1479 Dispensation, Edmund Hastings and Mary Greystoke

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 30 aug 2006 20:53:20

In message of 30 Aug, WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 8/29/06 9:46:02 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
royaldescent@hotmail.com writes:

but her parents were Sir John
Middelton of Belsay, Northumberland (d. 1464/7) and Elizabeth Ogle,
widow of Sir William Heron of Ford (d. 1 September 1425), and eldest
daughter of Sir Robert Ogle and Maud Gray.

Living Descendents of Blood Royal, Vol 2, "Duncan", pg 305-307
Count d'Angerville; World Nobility, London. 1962
Calls this wife "Anne Ogle"

As does CP VI 488 but cites Tests Ebor (Surtees Soc) vol iii, p. 321 and
adds a notes that 'His wife here is named Elizabeth'. No correction in
XIV.

However Chris Phillips' CP Corrigenda site supports the Elizabeth name
with evidence provided by ... Brad Verity. See:

http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/cp/heron.shtml

They were the parents of Elizabeth Heron b 1422 who married 11 Jul 1438
Sir John Heron, Knt d 29 Mar 1461

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/

Peter

Re: Psychopath? Re: The Political Compass

Legg inn av Peter » 30 aug 2006 21:09:59

On Wed, 30 Aug 2006 19:32:48 GMT, "La N" <nilita2004NOSPAM@yahoo.com>
wrote:

"Peter" <usenetINVALID@nidum.plus.com> wrote in message
news:h0jbf21h510btg6l2tssc08iffuumvrlib@4ax.com...
On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 15:58:27 GMT, "TOliver" <toliverjrFIX@Hot.rr.com
wrote:


I must admit to enjoying a substantial amount of the material, from mostly
misinterpreted to outright balderdash, which Spencer posts.

Many others don't find themselves able to share your enjoyment at the
drivel Hines pollutes a large number of NG's with.

I find it difficult to stomach Spencer's all too easy and oft resort to
nasty
insult (which in his case, a man entirely devoid, apparently, of anything
resembling a sense of humor) is simple self-destruction.

I suspect he is a psycopath. Do you agree?



Now, that's an interesting idea. Let's see if your assessment of Hines as
psychopath bears some consideration. Does the following describe our Hines?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopath
What is a psychopath?
A psychopath is defined as having no concern for the feelings of others and
a complete disregard for any sense of social obligation. They seem
egocentric and lacking insight and any sense of responsibility or
consequence. Their emotions are thought to be superficial and shallow, if
they exist at all. They are considered callous, manipulative and incapable
of forming lasting relationships, let alone of any kind of love. It is
thought that any emotions which the true psychopath exhibits are the fruits
of watching and mimicking other people's emotions. They show poor impulse
control and a low tolerance for frustration and aggression. They have no
empathy, remorse, anxiety or guilt in relation to their behavior. In short,
they truly are devoid of conscience.

Most studies of the psychopath have taken place among prison populations,
though it has often been suggested that the psychopath is just as likely to
sit on a Board of Directors as behind bars, concealing his true nature
behind a well crafted "Mask of Sanity" (also the title of the one of the
first definitive studies of psychopathy, written by Hervey M. Cleckley in
1941.)

Cleckley defined psychopathy thus:[7]

1.. Superficial charm and average intelligence.
2.. Absence of delusions and other signs of irrational thinking.
3.. Absence of nervousness or neurotic manifestations.
4.. Unreliability.
5.. Untruthfulness and insincerity.
6.. Lack of remorse or shame.
7.. Antisocial behavior without apparent compunction.
8.. Poor judgement and failure to learn from experience.
9.. Pathological egocentricity and incapacity to love.
10.. General poverty in major affective reactions.
11.. Specific loss of insight.
12.. Unresponsiveness in general interpersonal relations.
13.. Fantastic and uninviting behavior with drink, and sometimes without.
14.. Suicide threats rarely carried out.
15.. Sex life impersonal, trivial, and poorly integrated.
16.. Failure to follow any life plan.
It has been shown that punishment and behavior modification techniques do
not improve the behavior of a psychopath. They have been regularly observed
to respond to both by becoming more cunning and hiding their behavior
better. It has been suggested that traditional therapeutic approaches
actually make them, if not worse, then far more adept at manipulating others
and concealing their behavior. They are generally considered to be not only
incurable but also untreatable.

Psychopaths also have a markedly distorted sense of the potential
consequences of their actions, not only for others, but also for themselves.
They do not, for example, deeply recognize the risk of being caught,
disbelieved or injured as a result of their behaviour


Hilarious!

Deeeeeelightful & Reassuring!

Life Is Sweet!

What An Imbecile!

How Sweet It Is!

Deucedly Quintessential...

It is MOST AMUSING

BINGO!

Aah, Bingo indeed

--
Peter

D Spencer Hines est a deficio miles militis quod stultus

Gjest

Re: 1479 Dispensation, Edmund Hastings and Mary Greystoke

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 aug 2006 21:10:10

In a message dated 8/30/06 8:46:03 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
royaldescent@hotmail.com writes:

<< Yet in 1353
when he actually contracted to give Philippa in marriage to the Earl of
Stafford's heir, instead of 1,000 marks he offered f2,000, exactly
three times as much. Crecy and Calais had intervened." >>

Brad thanks for this interesting quote.
On this 1353 date Leo has
"Bef 1 Mar 1351"

Gjest

Re: More on the Zouche Baron's

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 aug 2006 21:21:02

In a message dated 8/30/06 8:57:06 AM Pacific Daylight Time, pajunkin@cox.net
writes:

<< 1570 EDWARD LA ZOUCHE or ZOWCHE College: TRINITY Entered: Easter, 1570
Born: 1556 More Information: .... Married (1) Eleanor, dau. of Sir John
Zouche; (2) Sarah, dau. of Sir James Harington, of Exton. Died Aug. 1625,
s.p.m. (D.N.B.; Nichols, III. 1146.) .. Cambridge University Alumni, 1261-1900
http://search.ancestry.com >>

Pat thank you for your helpful post.
Yes s.p.m. he apparently had two daughters
Elizabeth mar Sir William Tate of Delapre, his father I don't know, but his
paternal grandparents are called "Bartholomew Tate and Anne Saunders"

They are the parents of the Zouche Tate 1606-51 who married Katherine
Alington a 4th generation descendent of Richard Cecil

The other daughter Mary Zouche bap1582 bur1652 married Thomas Leighton on 4
Mar 1602/3 and later William Connard but appears to have possibly d.s.p. I'm
not sure

This information is present on both stirnet and tudorplace
stirnet.com/HTML/genie/british/xyz/zouche2.htm

It's likely that the Tate family has some interesting connections but I
haven't yet connected them myself.


Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: CP Addition: Elizabeth, wife of Roger de Lascelles, Lord

Legg inn av Gjest » 31 aug 2006 03:30:03

Wednesday, 30 August, 2006


Hello All,

Following is a 5-generation pedigree, from William fitz Ranulf
(de Greystoke) to his great-great grandchildren, including the
coheiresses of Roger de Lascelles, Lord Lascelles (d. ca. 1300) and
his wife Elizabeth.

Please note, the identification of Elizabeth as a daughter of
William fitz Ranulf and his wife Joan de Greystoke is not proven, but
is rather strongly indicated as set forth in the prior post. I note
also some weak onomastic support, as the eldest Lascelles daughter
(Joan, wife of Thomas de Colwen) appears to have been named for her
maternal grandmother, Joan de Greystoke. The second daughter, Avice
(wife of Robert le Constable of Halsham) appears most likely to have
been named for her paternal grandmother, Avice de Lascelles.

Cheers,

John *



1 William fitz Ranulf
----------------------------------------
Death: 1209[1],[2],[3]
Father: Ranulf fitz Walter (-ca1190)
Mother: [Probable] Amabel

of Greystoke, Cumberland

' In 1207 William son of Ranulf made an acknowledgment that he
would render yearly to Gilbert de Gant one sor goshawk healthy
and sound, to be delivered yearly...... in respect of one
ploughland which he held of Gilbert at Ellerton, near
Pocklington ('Yorkshire Fines,' 110). He died early in
1209, holding in Cumberland two vills in demesne and two in
service for a cornage rent of 4l. per annum. ' [Notes and
Queries, p. 82]

The text of the fine, in Pedes Finium Ebor.:
' Ibid. a die Paschae n unum mensem (April 22-May 20, 1207),
Inter Gilbertum de Grant pet., per Johannem Clericum positum
loco suo etc., et Willelmum filium Rannulphi deforciantem,
de annuo servitio duorum osturcorum, quod exegit ab eo de
una car. terrae cum pert. in Elreton, quod servitium ei non
cognovit. Et unde recognitio magnae assisae summonita fuit
etc., scil. quod predictus Gilbertus remisit etc. de se et
her. suis eidem Willelmo et her. suis totum clamium etc. in
uno predictorum osturcorum. Et pro hac quieta clamantia
idem Willelmus.... ' [Pedes Finium Ebor. pp. 110-1[4]]


3rd husband of Hawise de Stuteville[5] (2nd, per R. Borthwick)[6]

Spouse: Hawise de Stuteville[1]
Death: 1228[6],[2]
Father: Robert de Stuteville, of Cottingham, co. Yorks. (-1183)
Mother: Hawise (->1183)

Children: Thomas (>1202-<1247)


1.1 Thomas de Greystoke
----------------------------------------
Birth: aft 1202
Death: bef 20 Jun 1247[7],[1],[3]

of Greystoke, Cumberland
also styled Thomas fitz William[8]

'In 1209 Robert de Vipont owed 500 marks and 5 palfreys for the
custody of the land and heirs of William and the marriage of
his widow.'[2]

had grants for a market and fair at Greystoke ('Craystock'),
Cumberland dated 28 Oct 1245
' ...by K[ing] Hen III to Thomas son of William de Craystock.
To be held at the manor. Mandate in pursuance to the sh of
Cumberland (CChR, 1226–57, p. 288).'[9]

he d. before 20 June 1247, when ' the King took the homage of
Robert de Craystock, son and heir of Thomas Fitz William,
for all the lands and tenements which the same Thomas held
of the King in chief. ' [Yorks. Inq. I:36, note (b)[7], cites
Excerpta e Rotulis Finium vol. ii, p. 14]

Spouse: Christian de Vipont[1]
Father: Robert de Vipont, of Appleby, Westmoreland (-1228)
Mother: Idonea de Builly (-1242)

Children: Robert (-<1254)
William (<1224-1289)
Thomas
Joan


1.1.1 Robert de Greystoke
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 4 May 1254, d.s.p.[7],[3]

of Greystoke, Cumberland

' On 20 June, 1247, the King took the homage of Robert de
Craystock, son and heir of Thomas Fitz William, for all the
lands and tenements which the same Thomas held of the King in
chief. ' [Yorks. Inq. I:36, note (b)[7], cites Excerpta e
Rotulis Finium vol. ii, p. 14]

' Roberti filii Thomae de Craystoke', benefactor of Newminster
priory, bef 1255 [Mon. Angl. V:400, Num. V[10]]

IPM of Robert, son of Thomas de Craystoke, dated Friday before
the ascension of our Lord, 38 Hen III (15 May 1254; writ dated
at Westminster, 4 May 1254) [Yorks. Inqs. I:36-37, no. XXXIX[7]]

Spouse: Elena


1.1.2 William de Greystoke
----------------------------------------
Birth: bef 15 May 1224[7],[11]
Death: 17 Apr 1289[1]

of Greystoke, Cumberland

mandate issued at Westminster, 7 May 1275:
' Mandate to Guichard de Charrun to make, by juries of the
counties of York and Leicester, an extent of certain fees held
of Roger de Merlay, lately deceased (tenant in chief, which,
however, he did not hold of the king), to wit, as well those
fees which were assigned in dower to Isabella, late the wife
of the said Roger, as of others in dispute, and to make a
partition thereof between William son of Thomas de Creystok
and Mary his wife, the elder daughter and one of the heirs
of the aforesaid Roger, and Robert de Somervill and Isabella
his wife, the other daughter and heir of the said Roger, the
said parties being unable to agree. ' [CPR 3 Edw I (1272-1281),
mem. 25, pp. 87-88[12]]

heir of his brother Robert (Sanders, p. 50)[3]

Spouse: Mary de Merlay
Birth: bef 4 Dec 1241[7]
Father: Roger de Merlay, of Morpeth (<1218-<1265)
Mother: Isabel de Ros
Marr: 1256[13]

Children: John fitz William (-1306)
William (d.s.p. -<1328)
Margaret (d.s.p. -ca 1327)


1.1.2.1 John fitz William de Greystoke
----------------------------------------
Death: 2 Sep 1306, d.s.p.[8]

of Greystoke, Cumberland

as 'John de Craystok, son of the grantee' [actually grandson],
held a market and fair at Greystoke, Cumbs. in 1292[9]

his heir was his cousin Ralph fitz William (Sanders, p. 50)[3]


1.1.3 Thomas de Greystoke
----------------------------------------

cf. Collectanea V:314[14]

Children: Elizabeth
Alice


1.1.3.1 Elizabeth de Greystoke
----------------------------------------

coheir of her cousin Margaret de Greystoke, ca. 1327

cf. Collectanea V:314[14]

Spouse: Thomas Pickering


1.1.3.2 Alice de Greystoke
----------------------------------------

mother of Pter Bekard, coheir of her cousin Margaret de
Greystoke, ca. 1327

cf. Collectanea V:314[14]

Spouse: NN Bekard

Children: Peter


1.1.3.2.1 Peter Bekard
----------------------------------------

coheir of his cousin Margaret de Greystoke, ca. 1327

cf. Collectanea V:314[14]


1.1.4 Joan de Greystoke
----------------------------------------

re: her husband:

knight, of Grimthorpe and Hildreskelf, co. York[8]

Spouse: William fitz Ralph
Death: aft Jun 1269[8]

Children: Sir Ralph (<1256-1316)
Gilbert (-<1296)
Elizabeth (-<1323)


1.1.4.1a Sir Ralph fitz William*
----------------------------------------
Birth: bef 17 Jul 1256[8]
Death: 11 Feb 1316[8]
Occ: Lord FitzWilliam

of Greystoke, Cumberland and Grimthorpe, co. York

b. before 17 Jul 1256 [aged 40 and more, IPM of brother Gilbert,
Yorks., 17 Jul 1296 - CP V:513, note (i)[8]]

enfeoffed by John fitz William of Greystoke of the manor and whole
barony of Greystoke, manors of Dufton, Westmoreland, Ulgham, and
John's purparty of the manor of Morpeth, Northumberland,
Crossthwaite, co.York and Coniscliffe, co Durham, under license
17 Aug 1297 [had livery of same lands after death of John, 2 Sept
1306][8]

fought at battle of Falkirk, 22 Jul 1298
summoned to Parliament from 24 June 1295 to 16 Oct 1315 by writs
directed 'Radulpho filio Willelmi', whereby held to have become
Lord FitzWilliam[8]

summoned to Parliament as Lord Greystoke[1]

he m. 1stly NN,
2ndly Margery de Bolebec [CP V:514, note (g)[8]]

cf. CP V:514 [8]
VCH East Riding III:164-170 [sub _Fangfoss_[15]]

Spouse: NN

Children: William (d.v.p. -<1297)
Robert, 2nd Lord FitzWilliam (<1280-<1317)


1.1.4.2 Elizabeth 'filia Willielmi'[8]
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 25 May 1323[8],[16]

'Isabel' (Knights I:233)[16]

received the manor of Ellerton-on-Derwent as her maritagium[8]:
Kirkby's Inquest, p. 89, note <q> states as follows:

' 7-9 Edward I. On a plea of Quo Warranto before John de
Vaux and others, Roger de Lasceles
"dicit quod tenet manerium suum de Hellerton, ut liberum
maritagium Elizabethae uxoris suae, de Willelmo [filio]
Thomae, qui ipsum inde defendit et acquietet contra
omnes homines " (Plac. de Quo Warr., 200). '


cf. VCH III:20[15]

Spouse: Roger de Lascelles
Death: ca 1300[8]
Father: Thomas de Maunby (-<1238)
Mother: Avice de Lascelles (-<1261)

Children: Joan
Avice (->1356)
Maud (-1343)
Theophania (-<1323)


1.1.4.2.1 Joan de Lascelles
----------------------------------------

eldest daughter and coheiress
inherited Scruton, co. Yorks (alienated to Sir Simon Ward)[8]

Agreement concerning the division of the inheritance, dated 27 June 1302:
' Agreement between Joan widow of Thomas de Colewynne, Sir Robert de
Tylyolle and wife Matilda, Sir Ralph Fitz Ranulph and wife Theophila,
and Robert le Constable and wife Avice (daughters and heirs of Sir
Roger de Lascelles) on the division of Sir Roger's fees in Yorks.,
Westmorland and Lincs.
property homage, service and fees of free towns of [...]
Sournta' and Estkryke, co. Yorks., to remain to Joan de C.
All in Yorks to remain to Robert and Avice le C.
All others in Lincs. and in Westmorland to remain to Robert
and Matilda de T. and Ralph and Theophila Fitz R.
Given at Eskryke, Wed. after Nat. St. John baptist. 30 Ed. I. '
- A2A, East Riding of Yorkshire Archives and Records Service:
Chichester-Constable Family [DDCC/111 - DDCC/135], DDCC/135/51[18]

cf. VCH III:20[15]

Spouse: Thomas de Colwen
Death: bef 27 Jun 1302[18]


1.1.4.2.2 Avice de Lascelles
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 9 May 1356[18]

2nd daughter and coheiress
received manor of Thrintoft, co. York on her marriage; inherited
manor of Maunby

Agreement concerning the division of the inheritance, dated 27 June 1302
- A2A, East Riding of Yorkshire Archives and Records Service:
Chichester-Constable Family [DDCC/111 - DDCC/135], DDCC/135/51[18]

acquired the whole of the manor of Kirby Knowle by 1339[8] ,
agreement dated 12 March 1324/25:
' Gift: Matilda widow of Sir Robert de Tilliol to Sir Robert le
Constable of Holdernesse and his wife Dame Avice property
all her share of the manor of Kirby-underknoll, With 1 messuage,
1 bovate, 46½ ac. 1r. 10 p., and rents of 4s. 8¾d. and 1 lb. of
pepper in Eskryk
(Reserving a fourth part of the manor of the town and of the advowson
of Estkryk) ie the messuage William Foster holds at will, a bovate
Henry Pechard sometime held, 31 ac. 1r. 10 p. in Prestring, 2½ ac. in
Robriding, 3 ac. in Martinriding, 3 ac., 2s. 8¾d yearly from Matilda
de Eskryk for a messuage and 2 bovates, and 2s. and 1 lb. pepper
yearly from Emma de Sellis for a messuage and 2 bovates.
........
In exchange for all their property in the manor of Ellerton super
Derwent
Witn. Sir William de Thweng or Tweng, John de Sutton, William
de la Tower, Thomas de Pyke, Walter de Fauconbridge, Roger de la Hay.
Given at Halsham in Holdernesse, St. Gregory 1324. ' - A2A, East
Riding of Yorkshire Archives and Records Service:
Chichester-Constable Family [DDCC/111 - DDCC/135], DDCC/135/51[18]

aged 40 at mother's death (Knights I:233)[16]

' Letter of Attorney: John Bardolph, lord of Wyrmegeye and his wife
Dame Elizabeth to their knight John de Lasseles relating to deliver
seisin to Dame Avice wife of Robert Constable of Halsham, of a
fourth part of the manor of Kirby-under-Knolle Given at Wirmegeye
Mon. in/St. Nicholas 30 Ed. III (Translation). (9 May 1356) '
- A2A, East Riding of Yorkshire Archives and Records Service:
Chichester-Constable Family [DDCC/111 - DDCC/135] , "Records
and Deeds mentioned in the large Pedigree of the Constables":
DDCC/135/51, #31[18]

Letter of attorney, her nephew John de Lascelles to give seisin
in Kirkby under Knowle to his aunt, Avicia, dated 9 May 1356 :
' Letter of Attorney:
John Bardolph, lord of Wyrmegeye and his wife
Dame Elizabeth to their knight John de Lasseles relating to deliver
seisin to Dame Avice wife of Robert Constable of Halsham, of a fourth
part of the manor of Kirby-under-Knolle Given at Wirmegeye Mon. in/St.
Nicholas 30 Ed. III (Translation). ' - A2A, East Riding of Yorkshire
Archives and Records Service: Chichester-Constable Family
[DDCC/111 - DDCC/135], DDCC/135/51[18]

evidently 2nd wife of Robert le Constable[18]

Spouse: Robert le Constable, of Halsham [8]
Death: bef 9 Jan 1336[19]
Father: Sir Simon le Constable (-<1294)
Mother: Katherine (->1294)
Marr: aft 19 Apr 1282[18]


1.1.4.2.3a Maud de Lascelles*
----------------------------------------
Death: 1343[20],[21]

3rd daughter and coheiress with her sisters[8]

Agreement concerning the division of the inheritance, dated 27 June 1302:
- A2A, East Riding of Yorkshire Archives and Records Service:
Chichester-Constable Family [DDCC/111 - DDCC/135], DDCC/135/51[18]

exchanged her share of Kirby Knowle, co. Yorks to sister Avice for
an additional share of Ellerton-on-Derwent, co. Yorks[8], dated 12
March 1324/25:
' Gift: Matilda widow of Sir Robert de Tilliol to Sir Robert le
Constable of Holdernesse and his wife Dame Avice property
all her share of the manor of Kirby-underknoll, With 1 messuage,
1 bovate, 46½ ac. 1r. 10 p., and rents of 4s. 8¾d. and 1 lb. of
pepper in Eskryk
(Reserving a fourth part of the manor of the town and of the advowson
of Estkryk) ie the messuage William Foster holds at will, a bovate
Henry Pechard sometime held, 31 ac. 1r. 10 p. in Prestring, 2½ ac. in
Robriding, 3 ac. in Martinriding, 3 ac., 2s. 8¾d yearly from Matilda
de Eskryk for a messuage and 2 bovates, and 2s. and 1 lb. pepper
yearly from Emma de Sellis for a messuage and 2 bovates.
........
In exchange for all their property in the manor of Ellerton super
Derwent
Witn. Sir William de Thweng or Tweng, John de Sutton, William
de la Tower, Thomas de Pyke, Walter de Fauconbridge, Roger de la Hay.
Given at Halsham in Holdernesse, St. Gregory 1324. ' - A2A, East
Riding of Yorkshire Archives and Records Service:
Chichester-Constable Family [DDCC/111 - DDCC/135], DDCC/135/51[18]

held Swine in dower - 'Robertus Tyliol' was lord of Swine {of
the dower of his wife} [Kirkby's Inquest, p. 305 - 'Nomina
Villarum' for Yorkshire, 9 Edw. II (1316)[17]]

she m. 1stly William de Hilton,
2ndly Robert de Tiliol[8]

Spouse: Sir William de Hilton, of Swine and Winestead [1st husband]
Death: ca 1291, d.v.p.[8]
Father: Sir Robert de Hilton, Lord Hilton (->1308)
Mother: Joan le Breton
Marr: 1288[8]

Children: Sir Robert de Hilton (ca1290-ca1351)


1.1.4.2.3b Maud de Lascelles* (See above)
----------------------------------------

Spouse: Sir Robert de Tiliol[21] [2nd husband]
Death: bef 12 Mar 1324[18]
Marr: ca 1292[19]

Children: Sir Peter de Tiliol (-ca1350)


1.1.4.2.4 Theophania de Lascelles[22]
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1323[15]

4th daughter and coheiress with her sisters[8]
also called Tiffany;
inherited manor of Escrick and Ellerton-on-Derwent[8]

Agreement concerning the division of the inheritance, dated 27 June 1302:
- A2A, East Riding of Yorkshire Archives and Records Service:
Chichester-Constable Family [DDCC/111 - DDCC/135], DDCC/135/51[18]

Spouse: Ralph fitz Ranulf, of Spennithorne
Death: bef 1316[22]
Father: Ralph Fitz Ranulf (-<1270)
Mother: Bertrama

Children: Sir Ralph (->1343)


1. Alan B. Wilson, "Lords of Greystoke," Apr 10, 1999,
GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com, sources cited incl. CP, Early
Yorkshire Families (Clay) and English Baronies (Sanders).
2. Rosie Bevan, "Ancestry of Margery de Stuteville, wife of Sir
Richard Foliot," August 31, 2002, paper copy: library of John
P. Ravilious, citations from Rosie Bevan :
rbevan@paradise.net.nz, cites Clay, Early Yorkshire Charters,
Sanders, English Baronies; K. Keats-Rohan, Domesday Descendants.
3. I. J. Sanders, "English Baronies: A Study of Their Origin and
Descent, 1086-1327," Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1960.
4. "Pedes Finium Ebor. Regnante Johanne A.D. MCXCIX. - A.D. MCCXIV.,"
The Surtees Society, Durham: Andrews & Co., 1897, Surtees series
Vol. XCIV.
5. Rosie Bevan, "Ancestry of Margery de Stuteville," August 8, 2002,
paper copy: library of John P. Ravilious, citations from Rosie
Bevan : rbevan@paradise.net.nz, cites Clay, Early Yorkshire
Charters; Sanders, English Baronies; K.Keats-Rohan, Domesday
Descendants.
6. Richard Borthwick, "Researching de Brus and Descendants," Aug 21,
1999, GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com, also from Rosie Bevan (Re:
Roger, Earl of Warwick, Feb 12, 2001).
7. William Brown, B.A., ed., "Yorkshire Inquisitions," The Yorkshire
Archaeological Society, Record Series), various dates:, Vol. I
(Record series vol. XII) - 1892, Vol. II(Record series vol. XXIII)
- 1898, Vol. III (Record series vol. XXXI) - 1902, Vol. IV
(Record series vol. XXXVII) - 1906.
8. G. E. Cokayne, "The Complete Peerage," 1910 - [microprint,
1982 (Alan Sutton) ], The Complete Peerage of England Scotland
Ireland Great Britain and the United Kingdom.
9. "Gazetteer of Markets and Fairs to 1516,"
http://www.histparl.ac.uk/cmh/gaz/
10. Sir William Dugdale, "Monasticon Anglicanum," London: Harding &
Lepard; and Longman Rees... Green, 1830, Vol. VI, Pt. 1 - Austin
Abbey of Wigmore, in Herefordshire, pp. 348-356 [Fundationis et
Fundatorum Historia], Vol. VI, Pt. 2 - Priory of Bullington, co.
Lincs., pp. 951-954, URL

http://monasticmatrix.usc.edu/bibliogra ... il&id=2659
11. William Dugdale, Norroy King of Arms, "The Baronage of England,"
Tho. Newcomb [reprint Georg Verlag, New York], London, 1675
[reprint New York, 1977].
12. "Calendar of the Patent Rolls," preserved in the Public Record
Office, Edward I. A.D. 1272-1281, London: for the Public Record
Office.
13. Douglas Richardson, "C.P. Addition: Parentage of Isabel de Roos,
wife of Roger de Merlay and Adam de Everingham," 18 November 2005,
GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com, cites James Wilson, "Some Extinct
Cumberland Families, IV: The Greystokes" The Ancestor, 6
(1903):121-134.
14. "Collectanea Topographica et Genealogica," London: John Bowyer
Nichols and Son, 1838, Vol. V.
15. K. J. Allison, ed., "A History of the County of York, East Riding,"
Oxford: published for the Institute of Historical Research, Oxford
Univ. Press, 1969, Vol. III.
16. Rev. Charles Moor, D.D., F.S.A., "Knights of Edward I," Pubs. of
the Harleian Society, 1929-1930, 3 Vols. (Vols. 80-83 in series).
17. John de Kirkby, "The survey of the county of York taken by John de
Kirkby, commonly called Kirkby's Inquest," also inquisitions of
knights' fees, the Nomina villarum for Yorkshire, and an appendix
of illustrative documents, Durham: Pub. for the Society by Andrews
and Co., 1867.
18. "Access to Archives," http://www.a2a.pro.gov.uk/
19. A. Gooder, Ph.D., "The Parliamentary Representation of the County
of York, 1258-1832, Vol. I," The Yorkshire Archaeological Society,
Record Series, Vol. XCI (1935), Wakefield: Printed for the Society,
1935.
20. G. H. R. Kent, ed., "A History of the County of York, East Riding,"
Oxford: published for the Institute of Historical Research, Oxford
Univ. Press, 2002, Vol. VII, online available, courtesy British
History Online, URL:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report ... mpid=16147
21. George Poulson, Esq., "The History and Antiquities of the
Seigniory of Holderness," Hull: Thomas Topping, and W. Pickering,
1840 (Vol I) 1841 (Vol II), pp. 197-198, pedigree of Hilton of
Swine.
22. Frederick L. Weis, Th. D., "The Magna Carta Sureties, 1215,"
Baltimore: Gen Pub Co., 5th ed., 1997 (W. L. Sheppard Jr &
David Faris).


* John P. Ravilious

D. Patterson

Re: The Political Compass

Legg inn av D. Patterson » 31 aug 2006 08:14:51

hippo wrote:

"D. Patterson" wrote in message


hippo wrote:


[.]


Hmmm, a Soviet attitude I hadn't heard before, thanks.

I don't see Georgie intentionally in the role you suggest. He had been
careless enough in the past and his attitude towards the Soviets was well
enough known without the phone call. -the Troll


Which is exactly why using Patton in such a role to bluff the Soviets
would have been quite believeable to the Soviets, just as FUSAG had been
believable to the Germans. The Soviets and the Germans were great
believers in elaborate duplicity. When Patton was relieved of command of
the Third Army, the Soviets could see the general officer who most worried
them with regard to intent was no longer in a position to immediately lead
an offensive against them with the single largest and most powerful U.S.
field army in Europe. If the Soviets did not moderate their posture
sufficiently to stand down from an immediate offensive role, Patton could
have been returned to command the Third Army or placed in command of the
12th Army Group in the eyes of the Soviet leadership. Using Patton to play
a role and bluff by simply espousing his already public views can only be
convincing from the Soviet viewpoint, which was too suspicious to accept
the idea that the Anglo-American leadership would distrust Patton enough
to discard his services. Stalin had to decide between rejecting the
appearance of an American overture for peaceful relations and proceed with
the invasion of Western Europe with all of the great hazards it obviously
entailed, or Stalin had to consider the possiblity the Americans were
hinting at the hazard of a total war as described by Patton in the event
Soviet forces proceeded with further preparations for an invasion of
Western Europe despite all othe risks and hazards such an invasion would
entail.


Very interesting but Stalin knew we had the bomb even before Yalta and the
long range bombers to deliver them. I don't think he seriously entertained
the idea of continuing the war. -the Troll


On the contrary, it was the Soviet intelligence reports about the atomic
bomb which gave a measure of urgency to a Soviet seizure of Western
Europe following the German surrender.

In the early months of 1945 and before the German surrender, Soviets
were telling the American POWs they were going to take Western Europe.
In this period of time, no one yet knew whether or not the Americans
could succeed in designing and constructing a working atomic bomb.
Soviet intelligence was receving reports from informants inside the
MANHATTAN PROJECT which reported there was as yet no triggering
mechanism for a bomb, and the fissionable materials were still some
months away from becoming available in sufficient quantities to build
even the first atomic bomb. Even if the Americans succeeded in building
a single atomic bomb or a few atomic bombs, one or more of them were
expected by the Soviets to be expended upon Japanese targets. The
Soviets expected there could not be sufficient weapons grade
fissionables to construct the number of atomic bombs necessary to deter
a massive Soviet offensive in Europe. The longer a Soviet offensive in
Europe was delayed, the United States was going to have more and more of
an opportunity to amass a number of atomic bombs sufficient to stem a
broad Soviet offinsive into Western Europe. By comparison to the later
nuclear weapons face-off of the subsequent Cold War, the Soviet Union
forces in Europe faced the least nuclear weapons threat in the period
1945-1946. Never again would the Soviet forces have an opportunity to
invade Western Europe with conventional field armies while facing ony a
few or a few dozen nuclear weapons. The opportunity passed without being
exploited, because Stalin faced other risks like his logistics dilemna
and the U.S. Third Army which were more decisive and intractable than
the small number of atomic bombs opposing him in 1945.

D. Patterson

Re: The Political Compass

Legg inn av D. Patterson » 31 aug 2006 09:22:21

Billzz wrote:

"D. Patterson" <nye@fidalgo.net> wrote in message
news:44F52A4D.5050607@fidalgo.net...


hippo wrote:


"D. Patterson" wrote in message



hippo wrote:


[.]



I've long suspected he was being used in the same role in which he was
used as commander of FUSAG.



As a make-believe threat to the Soviets? -the Troll


Yes, a threat, make-believe or not. There were a number of American POWs
moving with and/or behind the Soviet frontlines and who were not detained
by the Soviet forces as were thousands of others elsewhere. After
returing to Allied lines, many of them reported a remarkably consistent
experience of having Soviet officers matter of factly telling the
American POWs that the Soviet forces were to continue on and "liberate"
the rest of Western Europe from their former allies just as soon as the
Germans surrendered. Of course, for many good and sufficient reasons,
such an event never occurred. However, there are many reports which
appear to indicate that some of the Soviet armies had been given reason
to believe they were to continue their offensives into Western Europe
against the Americans, British, and French. It is this Soviet posture of
anticipated belligerance which also played such a key role in a variety
of other incidents in the months preceding and following the German
surrender, including the Soviet detention of thousands of American and
British Commonwealth POWs detained in the Soviet zones. The incident with
Patton making a provocative telephone call which he absolutely had to
know was being recorded by Soviet intelligence seems to have been quite a
good opportunity to send a signal to Stalin while retaining plausible
deniability for diplomatic purposes. Patton had always relished his role
as an actor, and this incident could have been perhaps his final, most
useful and successful, and most unselfish and unsung role as an actor and
a general.


Hmmm, a Soviet attitude I hadn't heard before, thanks.

I don't see Georgie intentionally in the role you suggest. He had been
careless enough in the past and his attitude towards the Soviets was well
enough known without the phone call. -the Troll

Which is exactly why using Patton in such a role to bluff the Soviets
would have been quite believeable to the Soviets, just as FUSAG had been
believable to the Germans. The Soviets and the Germans were great
believers in elaborate duplicity. When Patton was relieved of command of
the Third Army, the Soviets could see the general officer who most worried
them with regard to intent was no longer in a position to immediately lead
an offensive against them with the single largest and most powerful U.S.
field army in Europe. If the Soviets did not moderate their posture
sufficiently to stand down from an immediate offensive role, Patton could
have been returned to command the Third Army or placed in command of the
12th Army Group in the eyes of the Soviet leadership. Using Patton to play
a role and bluff by simply espousing his already public views can only be
convincing from the Soviet viewpoint, which was too suspicious to accept
the idea that the Anglo-American leadership would distrust Patton enough
to discard his services. Stalin had to decide between rejecting the
appearance of an American overture for peaceful relations and proceed with
the invasion of Western Europe with all of the great hazards it obviously
entailed, or Stalin had to consider the possiblity the Americans were
hinting at the hazard of a total war as described by Patton in the event
Soviet forces proceeded with further preparations for an invasion of
Western Europe despite all othe risks and hazards such an invasion would
entail.


Well, I'm unsure that Stalin paid any attention to any general. He did not
believe his own generals, when they told him that Germany was attacking the
Soviet Union, and he waited a long time to react, based upon other input.
Russia, historically, has been a few people, in a large land, attacked by
outsiders. Their post-war strategy was to encircle themselves with
satellites. People who know something (not me) say they had a pure
defensive strategy. Offense, to carry communism, was to be done by client
states, well away from the USSR. WWII Marshall Stalin, even knowing who
General Patton was? Probably not.




Stalin was very well acquainted with precisely who George S. Patton was
and had been for at least two decades. Patton was world famous as a
pioneer of tanks and tank warfare from the First World War. Stalin was
responsible in part for adopting Walter Christie's tank designs as a
basis for the development of the BT-2 and other Soviet tanks, and Stalin
knew Patton collaborated in Walter Christie's works on those tank
designs. Patton was world famous among military officers for his
military works, especially those regarding the tank armies studied by
Guderian, Rommel, and Stalin. Stalin named Patton in his complaints
about the offensives of Patton's Third Army into Czechoslovakia in the
last days of the Second World War. Yes, Stalin knew exactly who Patton
was and the potential threat Patton represented.

Anyone who claims Soviet strategy was purely defensive with offensives
carried solely by clients is is clearly wrong and badly so. Although
most Soviet offensives were necessarily conducted against adjacent
territories due to the lack of a carrier-amphibious capable naval fleet
of global reach, the Soviets did conduct offensive campaigns and had
more offensive campaigns aborted due to deterrence. From China in the
1930s to Finland in the 1940s to Korea in the 1950s to Angola in the
1970s to Afghanistan in the 1980s, the Soviets have directly conducted
offensives.

Robert O'Connor

Re: More on the Zouche Baron's

Legg inn av Robert O'Connor » 31 aug 2006 09:37:23

<WJhonson@aol.com> wrote in message news:c1d.2a28f1d.32273e94@aol.com...
In a message dated 8/30/06 8:57:06 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
pajunkin@cox.net
writes:

snip

Pat thank you for your helpful post.
Yes s.p.m. he apparently had two daughters
Elizabeth mar Sir William Tate of Delapre, his father I don't know, but
his
paternal grandparents are called "Bartholomew Tate and Anne Saunders"

They are the parents of the Zouche Tate 1606-51 who married Katherine
Alington a 4th generation descendent of Richard Cecil

The father of Sir William Tate was:

BARTHOLOMEW TATE, M.P., J.P., of Delapre, in the Parish of Hardingstone, Co.
Northants., & Whitley, near Coventry, Co. Warw., Born c. 1525. Escheator
of Co. Northants., 1560-62. M.P. for Coventry, 1572. Mentioned in the will
of his mother-in-law, Bridget Tanfield, 11 Jan. 1578/9. Described as
"Bartholomew Tate of Whitley in the city of Coventry, Esq" he purchased from
his 1st cousin "Sir Christopher Hatton, knight, Vice Treasurer & one of the
Queen's Privy Councillors" "the cemetery & church hall of Stivichall, Co.
Warw", 12 April 1579. J.P. for Co. Northants., 1582. Sheriff of Co.
Northants., 1585/6. He received a grant of the rectory & manor of Cotton,
in the Parish of Hardingstone by Queen Elizabeth I, 1590. M 1st before 20
Dec. 1550 his 2nd cousin once removed Eleanor or Elizabeth (Born c. 1533.
She was mentioned in the will of her great uncle Sir Richard Tate as
"Elizabeth Tate daughter of my nephew Richard Pauncefote Esquire", 20 Dec.
1550. Died c. 1556), d. of Richard Pauncefote, Esq., of Hasfield, Co.
Glouc. & his wife Dorothy, d. of John Ashfield, Esq., of Heythrope, Co.
Oxford (See PAUNCEFOTE). M 2nd c. 1557 Dorothy (Bur. 21 Oct. 1591 at
Hardingstone, Co. Northants.), d. of Francis Tanfield, Esq., of Gayton, Co.
Northants. & his wife Bridget, d. of Richard Cave, Esq., of Stanford, Co.
Northants. (See TANFIELD). Died 23 April 1601. Bur. 6 May 1601 at
Hardingstone, Co. Northants. I.P.M., 1601.

Sir William Tate was a child of his father's second marriage.

Sir William Tate's paternal grandfather was:

Sir BARTHOLOMEW TATE, Kt., of Laxton, Co. Northants. & Whitley, near
Coventry, Co. Warw., Mentioned in his father's will as "my younger son", 3
Jan. 1515/6. He became a member of the royal household, & held office in
Calais, probably as Marshall. Knighted by the Duke of Suffolk at
Valenciennes, France, 3 Dec. 1523. M Anne (Born c. 1505. As "my wife Dame
Anne Tate" she was appointed Executrix of her husband's will, 10 May 1532.
She M 2nd Sir Thomas Longueville, Kt., of Little Billing & Wolverton & 3rd
Andrew Wadham, Esq., of Merrifield, Somerset (uncle of the founder of Wadham
College). She was mentioned in her father's will "my daughter Longville",
20 June 1544. She was Bur. 16 Feb. 1564), d. of Laurence Saunders, Esq., of
Harington, Co. Northants. & his wife Alice, d. of Robert Brokesby, Esq., of
Shoby, Co. Leic. (See SAUNDERS). Will dated 10 May 1532 - in which he
states that "I desire my father-in-law Master Lawrence Saunders to assist my
said wife and sole executrix and his daughter". Died 1532. Will Proved at
P.C.C., 1532.

snip


This information is present on both stirnet and tudorplace
stirnet.com/HTML/genie/british/xyz/zouche2.htm

It's likely that the Tate family has some interesting connections but I
haven't yet connected them myself.

The Tate family does have some interesting connections. I would be happy to

send you a copy of my full Tate pedigree to whom ever should like to receive
it. Please contact me privately off group.

Robert O'Connor

D. Patterson

Re: The Political Compass

Legg inn av D. Patterson » 31 aug 2006 09:41:21

hippo wrote:

"Vince" wrote in message


hippo wrote:


[.]


Very interesting but Stalin knew we had the bomb even before Yalta and
the long range bombers to deliver them. I don't think he seriously
entertained the idea of continuing the war. -the Troll

Worth remembering that he had already gotten almost everything out of the
war that he could have hoped for. He ahd eaten a big meal and was trying
to digest it.


Yup. -the Troll






Nope. Stalin wanted to advance into France and Spain, where he already
had a substantial percentage of the populace as Communist supporters
before and during the Second World War.

Fred J. McCall

Re: The Political Compass

Legg inn av Fred J. McCall » 31 aug 2006 10:14:32

"hippo" <hippo@south-sudan.net> wrote:

:
:"Fred J. McCall" wrote in message
:
:> "hippo" wrote:
:>
:> :You'd be wrong about the shtick. What little humor he owns is ponderous and
:> :so out of place it is obvious. No, he really thinks he is a superior being
:> :and resents that his abilities are constantly being ignored or denigrated by
:> :envious inferiors and inferior superiors. His sort make excellent field
:> :commanders in war.
:>
:> Poppycock! He's a fucking ANALyst.
:
:I'm talking about the type, not DSH here. I agree about the caps.

But the 'type' you are describing is *NOT* the 'type' that The Hindest
represents.

:> :They are totally goal oriented and are willing to
:> :sacrifice themselves,
:>
:> No.
:
:History say differently.

Oh? Show when DSH *EVER* fit your 'type'.

:> :and all of their men,
:>
:> Yes. And this mix is why they're typically lousy field commanders.
:> Their men don't respect them and, when it comes down to it, won't
:> follow them.
:
:Patton and Rommel were both respected if not loved because they almost
:always won. Soldiers respect a winner, even if they are pricks to work
:for. -the Troll

My objection isn't to those folks. It's to you characterizing The
Hindest as fitting in that type.

You see, I know his type and that isn't it.

--
"If it's the fool who likes to rush in.
And if it's the angel who never does try.
And if it's me who will lose or win
Then I'll make my best guess and I won't care why.
Come on and get me, you twist of fate.
I'm standing right here, Mr Destiny.
If you want to talk, well then I'll relate.
If you don't, so what? 'Cuz you don't scare me.
-- "Gunfighter", Blues Traveler

D. Patterson

Re: The Political Compass

Legg inn av D. Patterson » 31 aug 2006 11:19:37

La N wrote:

"hippo" <hippo@south-sudan.net> wrote in message
news:12f8puhhg1621cb@corp.supernews.com...

"La N" wrote in message


"hippo" wrote in message

"Renia" wrote in message

[.]


It's the Meme effect. Copying by example.

In a way. It's the reason for it that is important. The extreme of the
personality type lack internal evaluative systems for personal/human
relationships so everything must be adopted/learned from outside.
Another way to look at it is they entirely lack empathy and instead work
from mental behavioral lists by trying to match them up with situations.
It's a very shallow, single dimensional arrangement of which they are
unaware. Having no real understanding of themselves or other people,
they think all of us operate the same way. -the Troll


IOW self-absorbed egocentric *control* freaks Bleaaaghhh .... <shiver

Yup, that's exactly how they present, but it isn't their fault. They think
we are all egocentric control freaks too but less good at it than they
are. Would you want to change places with one of them? I didn't think
so. -the Troll


I neither like the idea of being controlled or that I could control
somebody. Or, otherwise stated, I don't like to be told how to think or
feel, what I should be thinking or feeling, nor would I expect others to
have to think or feel such as I do. Ick.

- nil




Your comment is a sick joke. Your entire personal and political
philosophy and methods of non-discussion is all about passive-aggressive
control of others. Your entire Leftist economic philosophy is about
taking control from individuals and vesting that control in the state or
collectivist authorities in dominance over individuals.

Vince

Re: The Political Compass

Legg inn av Vince » 31 aug 2006 13:57:59

D. Patterson wrote:

hippo wrote:

"Vince" wrote in message


hippo wrote:


[.]


Very interesting but Stalin knew we had the bomb even before Yalta
and the long range bombers to deliver them. I don't think he
seriously entertained the idea of continuing the war. -the Troll

Worth remembering that he had already gotten almost everything out of
the war that he could have hoped for. He ahd eaten a big meal and was
trying to digest it.


Yup. -the Troll





Nope. Stalin wanted to advance into France and Spain, where he already
had a substantial percentage of the populace as Communist supporters
before and during the Second World War.

source?

Vince

hippo

Re: The Political Compass

Legg inn av hippo » 31 aug 2006 16:19:34

"Fred J. McCall" wrote in message

"hippo" wrote:

[.]

:> :You'd be wrong about the shtick. What little humor he owns is
ponderous and
:> :so out of place it is obvious. No, he really thinks he is a superior
being
:> :and resents that his abilities are constantly being ignored or
denigrated by
:> :envious inferiors and inferior superiors. His sort make excellent
field
:> :commanders in war.
:
:> Poppycock! He's a fucking ANALyst.
:
:I'm talking about the type, not DSH here. I agree about the caps.

But the 'type' you are describing is *NOT* the 'type' that The Hindest
represents.

:> :They are totally goal oriented and are willing to
:> :sacrifice themselves,
:
:> No.
:
:History say differently.

Oh? Show when DSH *EVER* fit your 'type'.

:> :and all of their men,
:
:> Yes. And this mix is why they're typically lousy field commanders.
:> Their men don't respect them and, when it comes down to it, won't
:> follow them.
:
:Patton and Rommel were both respected if not loved because they almost
:always won. Soldiers respect a winner, even if they are pricks to work
:for. -the Troll

My objection isn't to those folks. It's to you characterizing The
Hindest as fitting in that type.

You see, I know his type and that isn't it.

OK, you've been dealing with him longer, what is he to you? -the Troll

Fred J. McCall

Re: The Political Compass

Legg inn av Fred J. McCall » 31 aug 2006 19:24:52

"hippo" <hippo@south-sudan.net> wrote:

:
:"Fred J. McCall" wrote in message
:
:> "hippo" wrote:
:
:[.]
:
:> :> :You'd be wrong about the shtick. What little humor he owns is
:> ponderous and
:> :> :so out of place it is obvious. No, he really thinks he is a superior
:> being
:> :> :and resents that his abilities are constantly being ignored or
:> denigrated by
:> :> :envious inferiors and inferior superiors. His sort make excellent
:> field
:> :> :commanders in war.
:> :>
:> :> Poppycock! He's a fucking ANALyst.
:> :
:> :I'm talking about the type, not DSH here. I agree about the caps.
:>
:> But the 'type' you are describing is *NOT* the 'type' that The Hindest
:> represents.
:>
:> :> :They are totally goal oriented and are willing to
:> :> :sacrifice themselves,
:> :>
:> :> No.
:> :
:> :History say differently.
:>
:> Oh? Show when DSH *EVER* fit your 'type'.
:>
:> :> :and all of their men,
:> :>
:> :> Yes. And this mix is why they're typically lousy field commanders.
:> :> Their men don't respect them and, when it comes down to it, won't
:> :> follow them.
:> :
:> :Patton and Rommel were both respected if not loved because they almost
:> :always won. Soldiers respect a winner, even if they are pricks to work
:> :for. -the Troll
:>
:> My objection isn't to those folks. It's to you characterizing The
:> Hindest as fitting in that type.
:>
:> You see, I know his type and that isn't it.
:
:OK, you've been dealing with him longer, what is he to you? -the Troll

You're half right. He is certainly ruthless and willing to sacrifice
those under and around him, often for small things. However, he is
cynical and cowardly at bottom and will do anything to keep from being
a position where HE could get hurt. He's much too important to risk
that way, in his mind. In the field, officers like him have higher
casualties for much less gain than even mediocre leaders.

He WANTS to be a Rommel or a Patton but just can't quite manage it due
to his own flaws. He wants to lead from the rear, not the front. The
people under him recognize this about him and know that they would be
cut off and sacrificed in an instant if The Hindest thought it was
necessary to save himself, or even just to keep him from looking bad
among the crowd whose admiration he so craves. He's still driven by
his childish inability to garner Daddy's attention. This is also
what's behind his spraying half a dozen newsgroups with his spew.
Ordinary rules don't apply to him. He's a legend in his own mind.

When it comes down to it, he's not the guy to lead the stand at the
bridge to slow down the enemy. Instead, he'll detail others to do it
while he escapes.

In other words, he's just a fucking ANALyst who will sacrifice better
men than himself in a heartbeat. Put him in an operator's world and
he'd whine like a whipped puppy.

That's the 'take' I get off him from watching him here.

--
"Then up spoke brave Horatius the captain of the gate,
to every man upon this earth, death comest soon or late,
and what better way for man to die than facing fearful odds,
for the ashes of his fathers and the temples of his gods"

hippo

Re: The Political Compass

Legg inn av hippo » 31 aug 2006 23:40:31

"Fred J. McCall" wrote in message

"hippo" wrote:

[.]


:OK, you've been dealing with him longer, what is he to you? -the Troll

You're half right. He is certainly ruthless and willing to sacrifice
those under and around him, often for small things. However, he is
cynical and cowardly at bottom and will do anything to keep from being
a position where HE could get hurt. He's much too important to risk
that way, in his mind. In the field, officers like him have higher
casualties for much less gain than even mediocre leaders.

He WANTS to be a Rommel or a Patton but just can't quite manage it due
to his own flaws. He wants to lead from the rear, not the front. The
people under him recognize this about him and know that they would be
cut off and sacrificed in an instant if The Hindest thought it was
necessary to save himself, or even just to keep him from looking bad
among the crowd whose admiration he so craves. He's still driven by
his childish inability to garner Daddy's attention. This is also
what's behind his spraying half a dozen newsgroups with his spew.
Ordinary rules don't apply to him. He's a legend in his own mind.

When it comes down to it, he's not the guy to lead the stand at the
bridge to slow down the enemy. Instead, he'll detail others to do it
while he escapes.

In other words, he's just a fucking ANALyst who will sacrifice better
men than himself in a heartbeat. Put him in an operator's world and
he'd whine like a whipped puppy.

That's the 'take' I get off him from watching him here.

Folks like him are often side-tracked during the selection process into jobs
where they can't cause too much trouble. Maybe you're right. -the Troll

La N

Re: The Political Compass

Legg inn av La N » 31 aug 2006 23:59:39

"hippo" <hippo@south-sudan.net> wrote in message
news:12fepb3tj86gj15@corp.supernews.com...
"Fred J. McCall" wrote in message

"hippo" wrote:

[.]


:OK, you've been dealing with him longer, what is he to you? -the Troll

You're half right. He is certainly ruthless and willing to sacrifice
those under and around him, often for small things. However, he is
cynical and cowardly at bottom and will do anything to keep from being
a position where HE could get hurt. He's much too important to risk
that way, in his mind. In the field, officers like him have higher
casualties for much less gain than even mediocre leaders.

He WANTS to be a Rommel or a Patton but just can't quite manage it due
to his own flaws. He wants to lead from the rear, not the front. The
people under him recognize this about him and know that they would be
cut off and sacrificed in an instant if The Hindest thought it was
necessary to save himself, or even just to keep him from looking bad
among the crowd whose admiration he so craves. He's still driven by
his childish inability to garner Daddy's attention. This is also
what's behind his spraying half a dozen newsgroups with his spew.
Ordinary rules don't apply to him. He's a legend in his own mind.

When it comes down to it, he's not the guy to lead the stand at the
bridge to slow down the enemy. Instead, he'll detail others to do it
while he escapes.

In other words, he's just a fucking ANALyst who will sacrifice better
men than himself in a heartbeat. Put him in an operator's world and
he'd whine like a whipped puppy.

That's the 'take' I get off him from watching him here.

Folks like him are often side-tracked during the selection process into
jobs where they can't cause too much trouble. Maybe you're right. -the
Troll

I guess he would be an REMF?

- nilita

hippo

Re: The Political Compass

Legg inn av hippo » 01 sep 2006 03:32:30

"La N" wrote in message

I guess he would be an REMF?

? I can't wait for this one. :^) -the Troll

La N

Re: The Political Compass

Legg inn av La N » 01 sep 2006 04:08:01

"hippo" <hippo@south-sudan.net> wrote in message
news:12ff6u1r4qsp606@corp.supernews.com...
"La N" wrote in message


[ with reference to Spencer Hines service ]

I guess he would be an REMF?

? I can't wait for this one. :^) -the Troll


Umm ... it's a rather naughty term I learned from military people. "Rear
Echelon Mother F*cker".

- nilita

Umm ... it's

a.spencer3

Re: The Political Compass

Legg inn av a.spencer3 » 01 sep 2006 10:15:06

"Fred J. McCall" <fmccall@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:6q9ef2tjabduro7lmvmcfoh8r081afamn4@4ax.com...
"hippo" <hippo@south-sudan.net> wrote:

:
:"Fred J. McCall" wrote in message
:
:> "hippo" wrote:
:
:[.]
:
:> :> :You'd be wrong about the shtick. What little humor he owns is
:> ponderous and
:> :> :so out of place it is obvious. No, he really thinks he is a
superior
:> being
:> :> :and resents that his abilities are constantly being ignored or
:> denigrated by
:> :> :envious inferiors and inferior superiors. His sort make excellent
:> field
:> :> :commanders in war.
:> :
:> :> Poppycock! He's a fucking ANALyst.
:> :
:> :I'm talking about the type, not DSH here. I agree about the caps.
:
:> But the 'type' you are describing is *NOT* the 'type' that The Hindest
:> represents.
:
:> :> :They are totally goal oriented and are willing to
:> :> :sacrifice themselves,
:> :
:> :> No.
:> :
:> :History say differently.
:
:> Oh? Show when DSH *EVER* fit your 'type'.
:
:> :> :and all of their men,
:> :
:> :> Yes. And this mix is why they're typically lousy field commanders.
:> :> Their men don't respect them and, when it comes down to it, won't
:> :> follow them.
:> :
:> :Patton and Rommel were both respected if not loved because they almost
:> :always won. Soldiers respect a winner, even if they are pricks to work
:> :for. -the Troll
:
:> My objection isn't to those folks. It's to you characterizing The
:> Hindest as fitting in that type.
:
:> You see, I know his type and that isn't it.
:
:OK, you've been dealing with him longer, what is he to you? -the Troll

You're half right. He is certainly ruthless and willing to sacrifice
those under and around him, often for small things. However, he is
cynical and cowardly at bottom and will do anything to keep from being
a position where HE could get hurt. He's much too important to risk
that way, in his mind. In the field, officers like him have higher
casualties for much less gain than even mediocre leaders.

He WANTS to be a Rommel or a Patton but just can't quite manage it due
to his own flaws. He wants to lead from the rear, not the front. The
people under him recognize this about him and know that they would be
cut off and sacrificed in an instant if The Hindest thought it was
necessary to save himself, or even just to keep him from looking bad
among the crowd whose admiration he so craves. He's still driven by
his childish inability to garner Daddy's attention. This is also
what's behind his spraying half a dozen newsgroups with his spew.
Ordinary rules don't apply to him. He's a legend in his own mind.

When it comes down to it, he's not the guy to lead the stand at the
bridge to slow down the enemy. Instead, he'll detail others to do it
while he escapes.

In other words, he's just a fucking ANALyst who will sacrifice better
men than himself in a heartbeat. Put him in an operator's world and
he'd whine like a whipped puppy.

That's the 'take' I get off him from watching him here.


And he wasn't worth that many words.
He's a paper warrior.
And a Twit.

Surreyman

Gjest

Re: Rhys Mechyll and Maud de Braose redux

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 sep 2006 13:10:02

Friday, 1 September, 2006


Dear Doug, Matthew (and Brad, Will, Tim, Alex, et al.),

Thanks for your replies, and details from those sources
concerning Rhys Mechyll and his near relations (alleged and
otherwise). It does appear that the Marshal relationship is the
source of the consanguinity between Rhys Mechyll and Ada de
Hastings: certainly, the Brut y Tywysogion makes it apparent
that Maredudd, father of Rhys Mechyll, was the son of Rhys Gryg.
The entry for 1271, the year of Maredudd's death, states as
follows:

' In this year Maredudd ap Rhys Gryg, a brave, powerful man,
died in his own castle at dryslwyn; and his body was
honourably buried in the great Church at Whitland on the
steps in front of the altar. And Rhys Ieuanc ap Rhys
Mechyll died in his castle at Dinefwr; and he was buried in
the monastery of Talley. '[1]

I have amended the previously posted chart to reflect the
relationship between these two, showing the alleged illegitimate
connection from William Marshal 'II' to Rhys Mechyll with a dotted
line (......) :


William Marshal = Eve (Aoife)
E of Pembroke I 'of Leinster'
d. 1219 I
________I______
I I
William de = Eva William ~ NN (not
Braose I Marshal Marshal 'II' : married)
exe. 1230 I E of Pembroke :....
I d. 1231 :
I :
William de = Eve de Maredudd ap Rhys = NN
Cantilupo I Braose d. aft 1270 I (illegitimate)
d. 1254 I I
I I
I I
Joan de = Henry de I
Cantilupo I Hastings I
d. bef June 1271 I d. 1268 I
I________ _______I
I I
Ada de = Rhys 'Mechyll'
Hastings ap Maredudd


I will advise should I note any primary source concerning the
illegitimate issue of William Marshall 'II'. Meanwhile, again my
thanks for this correction.

Cheers,

John *



NOTES

[1] The Chronicle of Ystrad Fflur

Unfortunately, the excellent website for the Tywysogion y Brut
(http://www.webexcel.ndirect.co.uk/gwarn ... /chronicle) is
no longer online. The text of the chronicle (any
relevant footnotes or references otherwise seem abandoned) can
be found (in part) at the following:

http://bestdiplomas.hit.bg/archive-hist/ystrad.htm

http://home.comcast.net/~agronosky/ars_ ... ad_fflur.t
xt


Brut y Tywysogion can be found, courtesy of Googlebooks, at

http://books.google.com/books?vid=ISBN1 ... RA5-PR42&l
pg=RA5-PR42&dq=Brut+y+Tywysogion+chronicle+of+the+princes&ie=ISO-8859-1&sig=Mu
4NLjfHs1qj5XtOwWLDkD6msmo


* John P. Ravilious

hippo

Re: The Political Compass

Legg inn av hippo » 01 sep 2006 15:22:19

"La N" wrote in message

"hippo" wrote in message

[ with reference to Spencer Hines service ]

I guess he would be an REMF?

? I can't wait for this one. :^) -the Troll


Umm ... it's a rather naughty term I learned from military people. "Rear
Echelon Mother F*cker".

Ah, yes, the butt of the spear, in the rear with the gear, chair warming
SOB, safety first, the dugout crew, paper pusher. Wish I could remember
more, there are thousands of them. :^) -the Troll

hippo

Re: The Political Compass

Legg inn av hippo » 01 sep 2006 15:24:08

"a.spencer3" wrote in message

And he wasn't worth that many words.
He's a paper warrior.
And a Twit.

I've taken up your 'twit'. It's very useful.-the Troll

La N

Re: The Political Compass

Legg inn av La N » 01 sep 2006 15:47:10

"hippo" <hippo@south-sudan.net> wrote in message
news:12fgggvjaed47f1@corp.supernews.com...
"La N" wrote in message

"hippo" wrote in message

[ with reference to Spencer Hines service ]

I guess he would be an REMF?

? I can't wait for this one. :^) -the Troll


Umm ... it's a rather naughty term I learned from military people. "Rear
Echelon Mother F*cker".

Ah, yes, the butt of the spear, in the rear with the gear, chair warming
SOB, safety first, the dugout crew, paper pusher. Wish I could remember
more, there are thousands of them. :^) -the Troll

A couple or so years ago there was a poster in UMA, a very delightful guy, a
member of the military, who self-effacingly referred to himself as
"PowerPoint Samurai" and used that as his screen name.

- nilita

a.spencer3

Re: The Political Compass

Legg inn av a.spencer3 » 01 sep 2006 18:51:18

"hippo" <hippo@south-sudan.net> wrote in message
news:12fggkd311v8v2f@corp.supernews.com...
"a.spencer3" wrote in message

And he wasn't worth that many words.
He's a paper warrior.
And a Twit.

I've taken up your 'twit'. It's very useful.-the Troll


Yeh, kept meaning to invoice you.


Surreyman

La N

Re: The Political Compass

Legg inn av La N » 01 sep 2006 18:53:48

"a.spencer3" <a.spencer3@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:qq_Jg.1890$TF5.1228@newsfe1-win.ntli.net...
"hippo" <hippo@south-sudan.net> wrote in message
news:12fggkd311v8v2f@corp.supernews.com...

"a.spencer3" wrote in message

And he wasn't worth that many words.
He's a paper warrior.
And a Twit.

I've taken up your 'twit'. It's very useful.-the Troll


Yeh, kept meaning to invoice you.


btw, not to be confused with 'twat' which over in the New World could mean
the same but also something else ..%)

- nilita

Carl Boyer

Re: Rhys Mechyll and Maud de Braose redux

Legg inn av Carl Boyer » 01 sep 2006 19:11:02

I do not see anything in the source you quoted indicating that Rhys Mechyll was son of Maredudd ap Rhys Gryg. In fact, they were brothers, and Rhys Mechyll was the older brother. Rhys Mechyll married Matilda de Braiose (dau. of Reginald de Braiose), was of record in 1227 and died in 1244. Maredudd, who d. 1271, m. a granddau. of William Marshal and Isabel de Clare. Bridgeman's Hist. of Princes of South Wales, 176, noted that Maredudd was called his father's heir in spite of being younger than Rhys Mechyll (and prob. also Iorwerth ap Rhys Gryg, Ieuan ap Rhys Gryg and Llywelyn Ddiriaid), probably because of enmity between Rhys Gryg and Rhys Mechyll. While Bridgeman is hardly primary material, the explanation fits the family.
More detail is in my Medieval Welsh Ancestors of Certain Americans.
Carl Boyer


Therav3@aol.com wrote:
Friday, 1 September, 2006


Dear Doug, Matthew (and Brad, Will, Tim, Alex, et al.),

Thanks for your replies, and details from those sources
concerning Rhys Mechyll and his near relations (alleged and
otherwise). It does appear that the Marshal relationship is the
source of the consanguinity between Rhys Mechyll and Ada de
Hastings: certainly, the Brut y Tywysogion makes it apparent
that Maredudd, father of Rhys Mechyll, was the son of Rhys Gryg.
The entry for 1271, the year of Maredudd's death, states as
follows:

' In this year Maredudd ap Rhys Gryg, a brave, powerful man,
died in his own castle at dryslwyn; and his body was
honourably buried in the great Church at Whitland on the
steps in front of the altar. And Rhys Ieuanc ap Rhys
Mechyll died in his castle at Dinefwr; and he was buried in
the monastery of Talley. '[1]

I have amended the previously posted chart to reflect the
relationship between these two, showing the alleged illegitimate
connection from William Marshal 'II' to Rhys Mechyll with a dotted
line (......) :


William Marshal = Eve (Aoife)
E of Pembroke I 'of Leinster'
d. 1219 I
________I______
I I
William de = Eva William ~ NN (not
Braose I Marshal Marshal 'II' : married)
exe. 1230 I E of Pembroke :....
I d. 1231 :
I :
William de = Eve de Maredudd ap Rhys = NN
Cantilupo I Braose d. aft 1270 I (illegitimate)
d. 1254 I I
I I
I I
Joan de = Henry de I
Cantilupo I Hastings I
d. bef June 1271 I d. 1268 I
I________ _______I
I I
Ada de = Rhys 'Mechyll'
Hastings ap Maredudd


I will advise should I note any primary source concerning the
illegitimate issue of William Marshall 'II'. Meanwhile, again my
thanks for this correction.

Cheers,

John *



NOTES

[1] The Chronicle of Ystrad Fflur

Unfortunately, the excellent website for the Tywysogion y Brut
(http://www.webexcel.ndirect.co.uk/gwarn ... /chronicle) is
no longer online. The text of the chronicle (any
relevant footnotes or references otherwise seem abandoned) can
be found (in part) at the following:

http://bestdiplomas.hit.bg/archive-hist/ystrad.htm

http://home.comcast.net/~agronosky/ars_ ... ad_fflur.t
xt


Brut y Tywysogion can be found, courtesy of Googlebooks, at

http://books.google.com/books?vid=ISBN1 ... RA5-PR42&l
pg=RA5-PR42&dq=Brut+y+Tywysogion+chronicle+of+the+princes&ie=ISO-8859-1&sig=Mu
4NLjfHs1qj5XtOwWLDkD6msmo


* John P. Ravilious








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a.spencer3

Re: The Political Compass

Legg inn av a.spencer3 » 01 sep 2006 19:43:00

"La N" <nilita2004NOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Ms_Jg.2118$0k7.1696@clgrps13...
"a.spencer3" <a.spencer3@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:qq_Jg.1890$TF5.1228@newsfe1-win.ntli.net...

"hippo" <hippo@south-sudan.net> wrote in message
news:12fggkd311v8v2f@corp.supernews.com...

"a.spencer3" wrote in message

And he wasn't worth that many words.
He's a paper warrior.
And a Twit.

I've taken up your 'twit'. It's very useful.-the Troll


Yeh, kept meaning to invoice you.


btw, not to be confused with 'twat' which over in the New World could mean
the same but also something else ..%)


Oh, of course not! That would be too fanny for words!
Twit is perfectly descriptive enough.

Surreyman

Gjest

Re: Rhys Mechyll and Maud de Braose redux

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 sep 2006 20:55:03

Friday, 31 August, 2006


Dear Carl,

Thanks for your response to my earlier posts.

I do in fact (now) show Rhys 'Mechyll' ap Rhys (d. 1244) and Maredudd ap
Rhys as brothers, as opposed to father and son (as in my original post).

Where the confusion now comes from is the name 'Mechyll' being assigned
(apparently in error?) to Rhys ap Maredudd, the husband of Ada de Hastings. I
will see what my notes show as the source for the name, but this is
apparently the result of some earlier conflation with his uncle Rhys ap Rhys.

I do not have a copy of your work on the Medieval Welsh ancestors, but
will look into same (possibly the LOC has a copy) as soon as possible.

Cheers,

John

Gjest

Re: Xtfer C. went into Virginea maried & hath issue.

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 sep 2006 21:50:03

In a message dated 9/1/06 12:15:34 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
starbuck95@hotmail.com writes:

<< Speaking of Touteville, here is the funeral certificate of Sir Henry
Gate's second wife, Katherine Vaughan, which shows she had a third
husband, Robert White ... >>

This is very interesting. There was a recent conversation about Dionysia
Bond who had married Sir Henry Winston, esq of Standish.

This Henry married secondly Elizabeth Vaughan (Visitation of Gloucestershire
1623)

Her father is also named as Watkin Vaughan of Bredwardyn

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Xtfer C. went into Virginea maried & hath issue.

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 sep 2006 22:25:02

In a message dated 8/31/06 7:31:01 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:

<<
http://books.google.com/books?vid=LCCN1 ... q=calthorp >>

Thank you Douglas for this link.
This also represents an update to Genealogics since Leo is not showing this
Anne Barrett "Sister of Edward Viscount Newburgh"

Anne and Edward were both children of Charles Barrett by his wife Christian
Mildmay
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.ph ... 1&tree=LEO

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Rhys Mechyll and Maud de Braose redux

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 sep 2006 00:00:03

Dear John,
I have Eva Marshal the wife of William de Braiose as the
daughter of William Marshal, 3rd Earl of Pembroke by Isabel de Clare, daughter
of Richard de Clare Strongbow, 2nd Earl of Pembroke by Aoife (Eva) of Leinster
(see CP I: 22, IV: 670 chart 3, V: 736, IX: 590, X: 352-364 X : 36, note e
Daughter of William Braiose and Eva Marshal, Eva de Braiose married William de
Cantelou CP II : 129
Sincerely,
James W
Cummings
Dixmont,
Maine USA

Tony Hoskins

Re: Xtfer C. went into Virginea maried & hath issue.

Legg inn av Tony Hoskins » 02 sep 2006 00:25:02

"Or is it common to exclude certain relatives in remainders (i.e., a
sister who was considered to have married particularly "well")?"

As to its being a common occurrence for remainders to exclude some
family members, I can't speak. But it has been my observation that
remainders sometimes do.


Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404

707/545-0831, ext. 562

Gjest

Re: Rhys Mechyll and Maud de Braose redux

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 sep 2006 05:12:43

Funny reading through this post, I noticed I had a disconnected person "Ada
de Hastings" who had married John Strathbogie, 7th Earl of Atholl

Their son David of Strathbogie, 8th Earl of Atholl was born sometime between
1220/50 so I suppose this Ada I have must be a daughter of Henry Hastings by
his wife Ada of Huntingdon ? The chronology seems to allow it.

Will

Gjest

Re: Rhys Mechyll and Maud de Braose redux

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 sep 2006 05:16:02

Dear Will,

This Ada de Hastings was of a different line, and not the daughter (or
near relation as far as I know) of Ada de Huntingdon. Following is a brief
pedigree showing her Hastings ancestry, as well as her mother Forbflaith (aka
'Forflissa'), countess of Athol suo jure.

Cheers,

John



1 John de Hastings
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 25 Jul 1210[1]

of Dun
held lands in the Mearns, ca 1180

'Johanne de Hastinges', witness to charter of King William
'the Lion', 16 Oct 1198 of lands in Allardyce, the Mearns[2]

his son David in the service of King John, 1210:
payment received from King John of England, 5 July 1210:
' 476. Prest made to knights at the meadow under a certain water
called Struthe, in presence of W. earl of Salisbury and R. de
Mariscis. [Among the names are]:- William le Chen, 20s.; David
de Hastinges, 40s. on behalf of John his father; Eustace de
Ballol, 20s. ' [Bain I:81[1], cites Prestita, 12 John, m. 6.]

payment received from King John of England, 25 July 1210:
' 477. Prests to knights at Carrickfergus the day of St. James
the Apostle. Robert de Ros, 40 marks; the Earl of Winchester,
50 marks; Earl David, 30 marks, delivered to Bartholomew de
Mortuo mari; David de Hastinges, 4 marks, for John his father;
Eustace de Vescy, 30 marks; Henry son of Earl David, 2 marks
(and many others). ' [Bain I:81[1], cites Prestita, 12 John, m. 5]

Children: Sir David (-<1248)


1.1 Sir David de Hastings
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 3 Jul 1248[3],[4]

Earl of Athol de jure uxoris[5]

a knight in the service of King John

payment received from King John of England, 5 July 1210
[Bain I:81[1], cites Prestita, 12 John, m. 6.]

payment received from King John of England,
25 July 1210 [Bain I:81[1], cites Prestita, 12 John, m. 5]

'D[ominus]. David Hastinges', witness to charter of Morgund
fitz Albe to his son Michael (text in charter of King James
I, 2 Aug 1428 - RMS p. 21, No. 110[6]]

' Dauid de Hasting Comes Atholie', gave a charter to Coupar
priory [with the consent of his wife] confirming the gift of
Tolach to the priory, dated 1244x1254 [Coupar I:115-6, No. L[4]]

' Domini David de Hasting, Comitis Atholiae, et Forflisae sponsae
suae, Comitissae Atholiae ', named in grant of Ness, physician to
the King, of the lands of Dunfallandy to Coupar priory, dated
1242-1244, ' which the aforesaid Lord David, Earl of Athol, and
Countess Forflissa gave to me for my service and
homage ' [" quam predictus Dominus David, Comes Atholiae,
et Forflissa Comitissa mihi dederunt pro servitio meo et
homagio..." - Banff Charters pp. 7-8, No. 2[3]]

' Fernlleth, Comitisse Atholie ', confirmed the grant by Ness of
the lands of Dunfallandy to Coupar priory, ' for the salvation of
my soul and for the soul of Lord David de Hastings my late lord,
Earl of Athol ' ["pro salute anime mee et pro anima Domini David
de Hastings quondam viri mei, Comitis Atholie"], witnessed by
Lord Gilbert de Hay, Lord Aymer de Maxwell [Domino Aymero de
Machuswell], dated 1244-1247 but before 3 July 1248 [date of
confirmation by King Alexander II] - Banff Charters pp. 8-9,
No. 3[3]]

Spouse: Forbflaith of Athol
Death: aft 1254[5]
Father: Henry, Earl of Athol (-<1211)
Mother: Margaret

Children: Ada


1.1.1 Ada of Athol
----------------------------------------
Occ: Countess of Athol suo jure[5]

Spouse: John of Strathbogie
Father: David of Strathbogie

Children: David (-1270)


1. Joseph Bain, ed., "Calendar of Documents relating to Scotland,"
Edinburgh: Her Majesty's General Register House, 1881 (Vol. I),
full title: Calendar of Documents relating to Scotland, Preserved
in Her Majesty's Public Record Office, London.
2. "BARONS OF ALLARDICE," John Cargile,
http://www.allardice.org/barons/appendix4.htm
cites Source: Regesta Regum Scottorum, I: 389-390
(William I).
3. "Banff charters, A.D. 1232-1703," London: Oxford University Press,
H. Milford, 1915, courtesy Genealogy.com.
4. D. E. Easson, ed., "Charters of the Abbey of Coupar Angus,"
Edinburgh: T. and A. Constable, Ltd., for the Scottish History
Society, 1947.
5. G. E. Cokayne, "The Complete Peerage," 1910 - [microprint,
1982 (Alan Sutton) ], The Complete Peerage of England Scotland
Ireland Great Britain and the United Kingdom.
6. James Balfour Paul, ed., "Registrum Magni Sigilli Regum
Scotorum," The Register of the Great Seal of Scotland,
Edinburgh: H. M. General Register House, 1882 [A.D. 1424-1513].

Alex Maxwell Findlater

Re: William de Caldecotis, and Sir James Douglas of Dalkeith

Legg inn av Alex Maxwell Findlater » 02 sep 2006 08:42:57

Quote from John:

The charter in question is available online, and given the
numerous contractions and gaps in the text I will provide the URL
for same in lieu of providing a poor version in this message [2].
In brief, this is a charter of Sir James Douglas, lord of Dalkeith
(d. 1420) dated 8 May 1388, granting the lands of 'Hutone' in
Annandale to William de Caldecotis and his wife Christiana. These
lands had evidently been held by William's father John de Caldecotis
(called " Jo... de Traune[ ]t p[at]ris d[i]c[t]i Will[ielm]i " in
the text, p. 164). This would appear to be the same land as that
called 'Hutton under the Moor' by Cameron Smith (see note [1] below).

unquote

I have looked at the map, while away for the last 3 weeks. Hutton is
in Annandale on the east side and still exists as a parish, but not as
a village, it is north of Corrie, which is marked on many maps.
Simprin is in the Merse, (Berwickshire) just south of Swinton and west
of Upsettlington, north of Coldstream. However the more interesting
one is that mentioned above, which, looking at the Reg of Morton, I
would call Travernent. The v has a contraction attached to it. If I
am right, my guess is that this is Tranent, near Edinburgh, halfway to
Haddington.

So here we have a family with a holding in Annandale, from which their
arms derive (based on Bruce of Annandale), so probably the earliest,
but also holdings in Berwickshire and East Lothian. Both of these were
known later on as the seats of respected gentry families, although I
cannot remember the names off the top of my head.

The incidental significance is to show how surnames were still flexible
even as late as 1388, and that among the gentry.

Alex Maxwell Findlater

Re: William de Caldecotis, and Sir James Douglas of Dalkeith

Legg inn av Alex Maxwell Findlater » 02 sep 2006 10:27:34

It was the Setons at Tranent, a bit more than gentry! Doh...

hippo

Re: The Political Compass

Legg inn av hippo » 02 sep 2006 12:11:04

"La N" wrote in message

A couple or so years ago there was a poster in UMA, a very delightful guy,
a member of the military, who self-effacingly referred to himself as
"PowerPoint Samurai" and used that as his screen name.

Chuckle, that's way too technical for my era. -the Troll

John P. Ravilious

Re: William de Caldecotis, and Sir James Douglas of Dalkeith

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 02 sep 2006 14:17:20

Dear Alex,

Thanks for the lookups, and your thoughts re: the Caldecote
holdings.

I do think Tranent was correct, although the genealogical
significance (a Caldecote inheritance from an earlier coheiress, with a
possibly collateral Seton link - or possibly a later Seton acquisition
from Caldecote...?) escapes me at present.

As you said,

The incidental significance is to show how surnames were still flexible
even as late as 1388, and that among the gentry.

Designations could change over time in this period, from
generation to generation, and also for one person from one point in
life to another. Sir George Campbell of Loudoun (d. bef 27 Jan 1491/2)
was, in his father's lifetime, seated at Martinharm (or Martinham)
castle. Among, other documents, the dispensation for his marriage to
Elizabeth Stewart, dated 29 March 1466, identifies him as "George
Campbell of Martnaham [Martinharme], layman " [1]. He only became
known as Sir George Campbell of Loudoun following the death of his
father, after 17 December 1476.

There likely is an interesting find, or two, awaiting us
concerning the de Caldecotis (de Tranent ?) family......

Cheers,

John





NOTES

[1] Dispensation to remain in marriage subsequently sought:
1466, March 29.
" It is represented for the part of George Campbell
of Martnaham [Martinharme], layman, and Elizabeth Stewart,
laywoman, spouses, d. Glas., that they, not ignorant that they were
related in third and fourth degree of consanguinity, and that the
father of Elizabeth had baptised [sic] George at the font,
contracted matrimony per verba de presenti and, without any
preceeding banns, solemnised it in the face of the church,
consummated the same and had offspring. But the said spouses are
not able to remain in matrimony without the dispensation of the
apostolic see, and if they should divorce, strife and scandals
would break out. It is therefore supplicated that the Pope
absolve them from excommunication on account of the foregoing,
and give mandate to dispense them to remain in matrimony and
to contract it anew, decreeing offspring born and to be born
legitimate.
Concessum. Rome, St. Mark's. Dispensatio 593.81. (James
Kirk, Roland J. Tanner & the late Annie I. Dunlop, eds.,
Calendar of Scottish Supplications to Rome, Volume V, 1447-1471
Glasgow, p. 332, no. 1114).

charter dated 5 Feb. 1475/6:
' 1225. Apud Edinburgh, 5 Feb.
Rex concessit Georgeo Cambell de Mertinhame, militi, vicecomiti de Are,
et
heredibus ejus,- terras dimedietatis terrarum de Corshill,
Chang-Leithistoune,
Schyr-Donaldstoune, et Broustarland, in dominio de Trarynzeane, co.
Are;- quas
Eufamia de Hammiltoune resignavit:- Test. {ut in carta 1213.} vii.
368. ' [RMS p. 248, No. 1225]

1477, July 13. "Geo. Campbell de Mertname vicecomite de Are..
milit(e)." (RMS, 2:378, no. 1786).







Alex Maxwell Findlater wrote:
Quote from John:

SNIP

hippo

Re: The Political Compass

Legg inn av hippo » 02 sep 2006 14:52:56

"a.spencer3" wrote in message

"hippo" wrote in message

And he wasn't worth that many words.
He's a paper warrior.
And a Twit.

I've taken up your 'twit'. It's very useful.-the Troll


Yeh, kept meaning to invoice you.

It would be worth it. :^) -the Troll

Fred J. McCall

Re: The Political Compass

Legg inn av Fred J. McCall » 02 sep 2006 15:39:51

"hippo" <hippo@south-sudan.net> wrote:

:
:"La N" wrote in message
:
:> A couple or so years ago there was a poster in UMA, a very delightful guy,
:> a member of the military, who self-effacingly referred to himself as
:> "PowerPoint Samurai" and used that as his screen name.
:
:Chuckle, that's way too technical for my era. -the Troll

The phrase "PowerPoint Warrior" is often used these days to refer to
the types that work in buildings with too many sides (for example).

--
"This is a war of the unknown warriors; but let all strive
without failing in faith or in duty...."

-- Winston Churchill

Gjest

Re: Xtfer C. went into Virginea maried & hath issue.

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 sep 2006 19:06:02

In a message dated 8/31/2006 7:31:01 AM Pacific Standard Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:

I might note that Le Neve's interesting volume also includes a pedigree
of the Knyvet family that is ancestral to the New World immigrant,
Muriel (Gurdon) Saltonstall, and possibly Dorothy (Beresford) Brodnax,
of Virginia. Here is the weblink for that pedigree:

_http://books.google.com/books?vid=LCCN10022347&id=ozMEAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA21&dq=cal
thorp_
(http://books.google.com/books?vid=LCCN1 ... q=calthorp)



Here is the Le Neve link that has caused me to spend over a day typing in
data :)
Not just from this link of course, but this link sent me off on a hunt
through Leo's database and the tudorplace.com.ar database to add in details
mentioned from this link's prompting.

Will

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