Blount-Ayala

Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper

Svar
Marc Archer

Re: Russian ancestors of early modern English nobility

Legg inn av Marc Archer » 04 aug 2006 02:15:02

To all,
Yes, it was Agath of Hungary, wife of Eadweard and mother of Edgar
Atheling and St. Margaret of England, b. 1045.
Any many thanks Leo for the quick responce, and I kindly accept your
instructions and will try to be more clear. I had meant to add who she was
wife of, but wasn't sure if Eadweard was correct, nor if it was the same as
Edward, so thought I'd by-pass the issue. Thanks for checking for me.

Best,

Marc

----- Original Message -----
From: "Leo van de Pas" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au>
To: "Marc Archer" <marcher51@sbcglobal.net>; <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 7:48 PM
Subject: Re: Russian ancestors of early modern English nobility


Dear Marc,

Someway to prevent 'nasty' replies, is to ask a clear question. With Agath
of Hungary do you mean Agatha, the wife of Edward Atheling? As far as I
know, nothing has been accepted in regards to her parentage. Like you and
me, many people would just love to have this puzzle solved.

I have looked but I cannot find another Agath/Agathe of Hungary.
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

----- Original Message -----
From: "Marc Archer" <marcher51@sbcglobal.net
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 9:42 AM
Subject: Re: Russian ancestors of early modern English nobility


Being quite a novice at medieval genealogy, and noticing how
venomous some responders can be, I'm reluctant to ask this, but please
keep in mind my ignorance.
This recent post abt. Russian ancestors of early modern English
nobility, reminded me of hearing that Agath of Hungary was descended from
a Kiev family. Has this been disproven, or remains to be proven?

Thanks,

Marc Archer
Flint, MI






Leo van de Pas

Re: Russian ancestors of early modern English nobility

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 04 aug 2006 02:35:02

I understand that the Atheling went to Hungary where he married "a relative
of the Emperor". If I am not wrong, this may be the reason why she is
referred to as "Agathe/Agath of Hungary". But because she may have lived
there does not make her a member of the Hungarian royal family, this is what
makes it important trying to be precise.
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas

----- Original Message -----
From: "Marc Archer" <marcher51@sbcglobal.net>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 10:13 AM
Subject: Re: Russian ancestors of early modern English nobility


To all,
Yes, it was Agath of Hungary, wife of Eadweard and mother of Edgar
Atheling and St. Margaret of England, b. 1045.
Any many thanks Leo for the quick responce, and I kindly accept your
instructions and will try to be more clear. I had meant to add who she
was wife of, but wasn't sure if Eadweard was correct, nor if it was the
same as Edward, so thought I'd by-pass the issue. Thanks for checking for
me.

Best,

Marc

----- Original Message -----
From: "Leo van de Pas" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au
To: "Marc Archer" <marcher51@sbcglobal.net>; <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 7:48 PM
Subject: Re: Russian ancestors of early modern English nobility


Dear Marc,

Someway to prevent 'nasty' replies, is to ask a clear question. With
Agath of Hungary do you mean Agatha, the wife of Edward Atheling? As far
as I know, nothing has been accepted in regards to her parentage. Like
you and me, many people would just love to have this puzzle solved.

I have looked but I cannot find another Agath/Agathe of Hungary.
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

----- Original Message -----
From: "Marc Archer" <marcher51@sbcglobal.net
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 9:42 AM
Subject: Re: Russian ancestors of early modern English nobility


Being quite a novice at medieval genealogy, and noticing how
venomous some responders can be, I'm reluctant to ask this, but please
keep in mind my ignorance.
This recent post abt. Russian ancestors of early modern English
nobility, reminded me of hearing that Agath of Hungary was descended
from a Kiev family. Has this been disproven, or remains to be proven?

Thanks,

Marc Archer
Flint, MI









Peter Stewart

Re: Russian ancestors of early modern English nobility

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 04 aug 2006 04:49:25

""Marc Archer"" <marcher51@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:037c01c6b756$7770f600$bd90fea9@Phama...
Being quite a novice at medieval genealogy, and noticing how venomous
some responders can be, I'm reluctant to ask this, but please keep in mind
my ignorance.
This recent post abt. Russian ancestors of early modern English
nobility, reminded me of hearing that Agath of Hungary was descended from
a Kiev family. Has this been disproven, or remains to be proven?

I hope you will be encouraged by the response to ask whatever questions you
wish as these occur to you. Marc.

Clarifying the problems that novices encounter, and gaining the benefit of
fresh perspectives from people new to the subject, are amongst the most
important functions of this newsgroup.

Most of the venom here is directed at people who offer answers rather than
questions, who impose on novices by pretending to knowledge and expertise
that turn out to be bogus. For some reason, medieval genealogy attracts more
than its share of frauds and nincompoops, but luckily it also provides an
interest for a great many new and casual enquirers.

Peter Stewart

Gjest

Re: John Arderne (d. 1392) of Nether Darwen & William de Lev

Legg inn av Gjest » 04 aug 2006 22:16:02

_RootsWeb: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L Re: John Arderne (d. 1392) of Nether Darwen &
William de Lever of Great Lever_
(http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GE ... 1154637620)


Sorry it's taken a little while to get back on this, Will and Rosie.

Will, I have no further information on the identity of the Richard Stafford
who was mentioned in the marriage settlement from the previous post. The
editor of VCH Lancaster does not mention William de Lever's marriage to Joan
only his to Alice. Rosie was kind enough to provide further information on the
Levers and Byroms (-rons) in her post which helps narrow down the time frame
of the marriages between William de Lever and Alice as well as with John Byrom
with William's daughter. What the editor of VCH Lancaster does spell out,
based on the Lever chartulary, was that John Byrom's wife was a daughter of
William de Lever. That's all that's definite. The editor then makes a
comment that William de Lever's elder sons were illegitimate. He doesn't say they
are his elder sons but it's apparent from the rest of the article on them.
His younger son Adam by his wife Alice was his legal heir.
Rosie says I made an unsound genealogical conclusion, which is her choice.
At this point I'm just trying to make sense of the records that I have access
to that make reference to these families. I am not trying to present any
grand sweeping statements on these families now or probably in the future.
What I am doing is asking for assistance from the readers of this list to help
me understand what I have come across as well as provide other sources.
I have seen another instance in a medieval family when children of a first
marriage were made bastards by the separation of their parents, so this seemed
plausible given the limited scope of what I had on them from the IPMs of John
Arderne and the article on the Levers in VCH Lancaster.
Even if there is no connection to John Arderne of Nether Darwen through the
Levers I am still interested in finding his identity if anyone can help with
that. Thanks for the assistance from both of you, Will and Rosie.

Todd Whitesides

Gjest

Re: Alboynus son of King Harold

Legg inn av Gjest » 05 aug 2006 00:16:02

Dear Mike,
I have a Genealogical Chart of the Kings and Queens of
Great Britain produced in 1976 by John Bartholomew and Son, Ltd. and by Crown
Publishing of New York for Anne Taute , John Brooke-Little MVO MA FSA Richmond
Herald of Arms and drawn by Don -Pottinger MA (HONS) DA Unicorn Pursuiavant of
Arms. I am guessing Anne Taute was responsible for making sense of which names
went where. At any rate, 7 children are listed for King Harold II, 6 by his
mistress Edith (Eadgyth) Swan neck, who ultimately identified his body, these
being Godwine, Eadmund, Magnus, Ulf, Gytha (who is shown with a ? on the chart,
is said to have married Vladimir II Monomachos, Prince of Kief, and been
mother of some of his children including Mstislav I, who recieved (? Roman)
baptism with the name Harold. another daughter Gunnhild who was a nun at Wilton. by
his wife Edith, daughter of Aelfgar, Earl of Mercia and his wfe Aelfgifu
(Alfgiva). Aelfgar, Earl of Mercia is said to be the son of Earl Leofric of Mercia
and the famous Godgifu (Godiva) Edith and Harold II had one son Harold who
didn`t survive long.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

Gjest

Re: Alboynus son of King Harold

Legg inn av Gjest » 05 aug 2006 00:41:02

In a message dated 8/4/06 3:13:48 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Jwc1870@aol.com
writes:

<< Gytha (who is shown with a ? on the chart,
is said to have married Vladimir II Monomachos, Prince of Kief, >>

On the alledged marriage of Gytha to Vladimir, "Heraldry of the Royal
Families of Europe" is silent, but it does name this Prince as "Vladimir II Monomakh,
Grand Duke of /Kiev/ d 1125" on Table 135, with no wife named.

I have so far collected nine children for him and his wife. I have marriages
however for only three of those:
1) Euphemia of Kiev d 1139 mar Koloman, King of /Hungary/ in 1095 d 1114,
having Boris d 1155, unknown if there are further descents;
2) Mstislav I, Grand Duke of /Kiev/ d 1132, mar an unknown woman and had at
least six children with further descents;
3) Yuri I Dolgoruki of /Kiev/ d 1157 mar an unknown woman and had at least
eight children with further descents.

Will Johnson

Leo van de Pas

Re: Alboynus son of King Harold

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 05 aug 2006 01:46:02

Will,
Do you mean this superb book by Jiri Louda and Michael Maclagan? Don't
forget this book is mainly about heraldry.

ES Volume II Tafel 135, identifies Gytha as daughter of King Harold II of
England and wife of Vladimir Monomakh. This Tafel also shows that Vladimir
had three wives, (1) Gytha, mother of six of his children (2) NN mother of
five children (3) NN of Polowczen no children.

Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia


----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2006 8:37 AM
Subject: Re: Alboynus son of King Harold


In a message dated 8/4/06 3:13:48 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
Jwc1870@aol.com
writes:

Gytha (who is shown with a ? on the chart,
is said to have married Vladimir II Monomachos, Prince of Kief,

On the alledged marriage of Gytha to Vladimir, "Heraldry of the Royal
Families of Europe" is silent, but it does name this Prince as "Vladimir
II Monomakh,
Grand Duke of /Kiev/ d 1125" on Table 135, with no wife named.

I have so far collected nine children for him and his wife. I have
marriages
however for only three of those:
1) Euphemia of Kiev d 1139 mar Koloman, King of /Hungary/ in 1095 d 1114,
having Boris d 1155, unknown if there are further descents;
2) Mstislav I, Grand Duke of /Kiev/ d 1132, mar an unknown woman and had
at
least six children with further descents;
3) Yuri I Dolgoruki of /Kiev/ d 1157 mar an unknown woman and had at least
eight children with further descents.

Will Johnson


Gjest

re: Eupheme de Brus

Legg inn av Gjest » 05 aug 2006 06:51:02

Saturday, 5 August 2006


Dear Frank,

The following partial pedigree links Eupheme (or Euphemia)
de Brus to her brother Robert (d. bef 27 Aug 1237), Lord of
Annandale and great-grandfather of Robert 'the Bruce'.

Cheers,

John *




1 William de Brus
----------------------------------------
Death: 16 Jun 1212[1],[2],[3]
Occ: Lord of Annandale
Father: Robert de Brus (-?1193)
Mother: Eufemia de Aumale

of Hartlepool, co. Durham
Lord of Annandale [Scot.]

'William de Brus', witness [with Bernard de Brus and others] to
charter of Robert de Brus * granted Elton, near Stockton, to
William de Humetz, before 1184 [EYC II:4, no. 650 -note 3; cites
Brit. Mus., Cott. ch. xviii, 50][3]

grant of a messuage in Hartlepool to the monks of Durham by
father Robert de Brus witnessed by sons,
'Roberto, Willelmo et Bernardo filiis meis,..' and others,
ca. 1170-1190 [EYC II:8, no. 658][3]

record of an assessment, 1194-5:
' 229. Cumberland: -
For the scutage of knights in Cumberland after the
K.'s [Richard's] second coronation..... William de Brus
accounts for 10s. '
[Cal. Doc. Scotland I:35[1], cites Pipe Roll 6 Ric. I, Rot. 9]

had charters for a market [mercatum] and fair, granted 1201 by
King John to William de Brus; ' William owed 20m. for having
a market and a fair lasting three days ' (PR, 3 John,
pp. 249–50)[2]

* called Robert II de Brus (more likely, the father of William)


Re: his wife Christian, or Cristina:

her dower included a third of the manor of Hartlepool, co.
Durham, as evidenced by agreement with her son and heir Robert
de Brus:
' On 11 Nov 1218, an agreement between Robert Brus and Patrick,
earl of Dunbar and C. the countess, records that Patrick was
to retain one third of the market (Calendar of Documents
relating to Scotland, i, 1108–1272, p. 123, no. 700). '[2]

identified by Andrew B. W. MacEwen as Christian/Christina le
Stewart, daughter of Walter fitz Alan[4],[5]

she m. 1stly William de Brus,
2ndly Patrick, earl of Dunbar[6]

Spouse: Christian 'filia Walter'
Father: Walter fitz Alan (-1177)
Mother: Eschina of Huntlaw

Children: Euphemia (-ca1267)
Robert (-<1237)
NN, m. Fearcher, earl of Ross
NN, a son


1.1 Euphemia de Brus
----------------------------------------
Death: ca 1267[6],[7]

' Euphemia, married Patrick, sixth Earl of Dunbar '
[ SP I:12, which gives her in error as daughter of Walter
fitz Alan the Steward; also, III:256-7, sub Dunbar, Earl
of Dunbar[6] ]

she had the manor of Birkynside, co. Lauderdale as her maritagium:
' The earl had with her in marriage the lands of Birkenside in
Lower Lauderdale, which had been granted to the first Stewart by
Malcolm IV. It was from the firm of those lands, that the Earl,
her husband, granted an annuity to the canons of Dryburgh. After
her husband's death, "Domina Euphemia comitissa sponse quondum
Patricii com. de Dunbar nunc in sua viduatate existen.," confirmed
to those canons the same annuity, "a firmis terrarum mearum
matrimonalium de Birkenside." ' [Chalmers p. 242[8] note (f),
cites Chart. Dryb., No. 85. Also SP III:256, cites Registrum
de Dryburgh, 84, 85[6] ]

~ identification as Euphemia de Brus (correction of account in SP
which shows her as a daughter of Walter le Stewart) by Andrew
B. W. MacEwen[4]
[ previously thought to have been possibly a 2nd wife, as Patrick,
7th Earl of Dunbar was b. say 1213 (SP III:257), evidently older
than Alexander le Stewart, supposed brother of Euphemia[6] {now
disproved}]

' Euphemia de Brus ', widow of the Earl of Dunbar, confirmed
a grant after 1248 [TG IX:231[7], cites Thompson, Northumberland
Pleas p. 215, no. 652]

Spouse: Patrick, Earl of Dunbar
Death: aft 14 Apr 1248, Marseilles (en route to Crusade)[6],[9]
Birth: ca 1185[7]
Father: Patrick of Dunbar (1152-1232)
Mother: Ada of Scotland (-1200)

Children: Patrick (<1213-1289)
Waldeve, rector of Dunbar
Isabel, m. (1) Roger fitz John, of Warkworth


1.2 Robert de Brus
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 27 Aug 1237[10]
Occ: Lord of Annandale

of Hartlepool, co. Durham

he had succeeded his father before 13 June 1213, on which date his
younger brother (unnamed) was a hostage of the King of Scotland
for him, and was then residing with his cousin Peter de Brus.
A similar letter to the following, written
' to Peter de Brus concerning the brother of Robert de Brus '
[unidentified] a hostage of the King of Scotland placed with
Peter for safekeeping, to be transferred to the King of England's
custody, 13 June 1213 :
' 574. Concerning the K. of Scotland's hostages. The K. to S[aher]
earl of Winchester. Commands him on receipt, immediately to send
the K. by good and safe messengers, Reginald his own son, and the
son of William de Veteripont, hostages of the K. of Scotland, who
are in his custody by the K.'s order; so that they may be with the
K. at Portsmouth on the vigil of St. John Baptist instant.
Beaulieu. ' [Bain I:100-101[1], cites Foedera I:113; and Close
Roll 15 John, p. 1, m. 4]

' On 26 Jun 1215, Philip de Ulecot was notified that K John had
granted Robert de Brus, son and heir of William de Brus, a Wed
market [ and a fair on f+2 Laurence (10 Aug)] as it was set out
in the charter (RLC, i, p. 217). On 11 Nov 1218, an agreement
between Robert Brus and Patrick, earl of Dunbar and C. the
countess, records that Patrick was to retain one third of the
market (Calendar of Documents relating to Scotland, i, 1108–1272,
p. 123, no. 700). '[2][see also Bain, Cal. Docs. Scotland I:110,
No. 624 dated 26 June 1215[1]]


Re: his wife Isabel:

2nd daughter of Earl David, and coheiress of her brother, John,
Earl of Chester

had the manors of Hatfield Regis and Writtle, Essex as her
share of the Chester inheritance (or in lieu thereof), 1238
[acc. to Sanders, held ' for the service of 1 knight's fee in
exchange for her share of the Chester estates', p. 102[12]]

also held to have received possession of Great Baddow,
Essex, 1243 (Farrer, HKF II: 47)[13]

'Her manors of Writtle and Hatfield (Broad Oak), Essex and the
1/2 hundred pertaining to Hatfield, were taken into the King's
hand before 20 Mar 1251/52, and her son did homage therefor in
Apr. or May. These manors, &c., had been granted to her, 16 Oct.
1241, in exchange for her share of the inheritance of John, Earl
of Chester, in that Earldom.'[10]

Spouse: Isabel of Huntingdon
Death: bef 20 Mar 1251[10]
Father: David of Scotland, Earl of Huntingdon (-1219)
Mother: Maud of Chester (1171-ca1233)

Children: Robert (1210-1295)


1.2.1a Robert de Brus*
----------------------------------------
Birth: 1210[14]
Death: 31 Mar 1295, Lochmaben Castle[10],[14]
Burial: 17 Apr 1295, Guisborough Priory[10]
Occ: Lord of Annandale

Lord of Annandale
[England] of Hartlepool, co. Durham, Writtle and Hatfield, Essex
& c.[10]

A charter of King Alexander II granted to Norinus, son of Norman
de Lesslyn, ' at the instance of Isabel de Brus and Robert de Brus
her son ' [" ad instanciam Isobile de Bruiss et Roberti de Bruiss
filii sui "], witnessed by William, earl of Mar, Alexander the son
of Walter the Steward ["Alexandero filio Walteri Senescallo"],
John Comyn and Nicholas de Soulis, dated at Edinburgh, 4 Dec 1248
[Leslie p. 152, Appendix VI[15], citing original charter in the
Charter-room of the Earls of Rothes at Leslie House]

allegedly designated successor of Alexander II, c. 1251[14]

' Robertus de Brus ', one of the Regents of Scotland and
guardians of Alexander III, appointed 20 September 1255[10]

supporter of King Henry III in England, April 1264 at Nottingham;

fought at Battle of Lewes, 14 May 1264 and captured by de
Montfort's forces, together with John Comyn of Badenoch and
John Baliol [Flores Historiarum II:496, as cited by Anderson,
p. 380[9]] - ransomed by son Robert[14]

his son Richard de Brus had grant of the marriage and custody of
the lands of Ralph de Tosny, 8 August 1265 * [probable as reward
for support of King Henry III at Evesham and before - originally
granted to Humphrey de Bohun and Edmund of Lancaster, 12 May
1264][10]

* order for William de St. Omer to delivery him to
'Richard' de Brus, 19 Sept 1265 [CP Vol. XII/I,
Tony, p. 773 and note b, citing Cal. Patent Rolls and
Close Rolls][10]



' Robertus de Bruse, dominus vallis Anandaie ', together with his
sons Robert snd Richard, entered into a bond with Patrick, earl of
Dunbar, Walter, earl of Menteith and others at Turnberry, 20 Sept
1286 'to adhere to the party of Richard de Burgh, earl of Ulster
and Sir Thomas de Clare ' [Red Book of Menteith II: 219-220,
citing Historical Docs. Scotland, i:22[17] ]

' Robert de Brus, sire de Val de Anant', one of the barons of
Scotland [listed first] attending the Parliament at Brigham who
confirmed the Treaty of Salisbury with England, 14 Mar 1289/90
[Stevenson I:129-130, No. XCII[18]]

' Brus dominus Vallis Anandie, Robertus de (Robert de
Brus feignor du Val Danant). ' - swore allegiance to King
Edward I at Berwick, 1291 [Ragman Roll[19] ]

competitor for the Scottish succession, 1292[6]


he m. 1stly Isabel de Clare,
2ndly Christiana _____

Spouse: Isabel de Clare[6]
Birth: 8 Nov 1226[10]
Death: bef 10 May 1275[10]
Father: Gilbert de Clare, Earl of Gloucester and Hertford (-1230)
Mother: Isabel le Marshal (1200-1239)
Marr: abt 1240

Children: Robert (1243-<1304)
Richard (-1287)
John
Alicia [Aloysia]
Isabel
Mary (->1282)
Bernard (-<1269)

Other Spouses Christiana de Ireby


1.2.1a.1a Robert de Brus*
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 4 Apr 1304[14],[10]
Birth: Jul 1243[10]
Occ: Earl of Carrick de jure uxoris; Lord Brus

Earl of Carrick, de jure uxoris
[England] of Hartlepool, co. Durham, and Writtle, Baddow,
Hatfield Broadoak and Broomshawbury, Essex[10]

' Robertus de Brus comes de Carryke ', together with his father
and brother Richard, entered into a bond with Patrick, earl of
Dunbar, Walter, earl of Menteith and others at Turnberry, 20 Sept
1286 'to adhere to the party of Richard de Burgh, earl of Ulster
and Sir Thomas de Clare ' [Red Book of Menteith II: 219-220,
citing Historical Docs. Scotland, i:22[17] ]

Confirmation dated at Bronsho 6 Kal. Jan. 16 Ed. 1 [27 Dec.1287]
{copy, undated: 15th century}:
' 1. Lord Robert de Brus, Earl of Carryk, son of
Lord Robert de Brus, Lord Wallanand'
2.a. Matthew son of Roger Draparii of Braunketre
b. Amicia his wife.
Hatfeld Regis, [Essex]: messuage formerly of Richard son
of Godfrey, father of 2b.; and a croft called
Godyeveleye. Consideration: £20; rent 20s. p.a.
Witnesses: Lord Oliver Morell, Lord Wyscard Ledet, Lord John
de la Mare, Lord John de Merk, kts., Nicolas de
Baryngton, Peter de Haselingefeld, etc. John de
Bledelowe, steward, and others. ' [Endorsement:
"Copia carte privileg' pro E.Froddesham".] - A2A,
London Metropolitan Archives: The Corporation of the
Sons of the Clergy [A/CSC/537 - A/CSC/2627], Hatfield
Broad Oak Estate, Essex; Brainstris and Hempstalls:
DATED DEEDS, A/CSC/1279[20]

' Robert de Carrike ', one of the Earls of Scotland attending the
Parliament at Brigham, which confirmed the Treaty of Salisbury
with England, 14 Mar 1289/90 [Stevenson I:129-130, No. XCII[18]]

' Brus comes de Carryk, Robertus de ' - swore allegiance to King
Edward I at Berwick, 1291 [Ragman Roll[19] ]

performed homage and had livery of his father's English lands,
4 Jul 1295
summoned to attend the King at Shrewsbury, 28 June 1283 by
writ directed 'Roberto de Brus comiti de Carrik'[10]

' In 1293, Robert de Brus had a market in Hartlepool, within
the liberties of the bp of Durham (QW, p. 604).'[2]

summoned to Parliament (England) from 24 June 1295 by writ directed
'Roberto de Brus', held thereby to have become Lord Brus[10]

Earl of Carrick in right of his wife; resigned Earldom to son,
9 Nov 1292; Lord of Annandale 1292-1304[14]

' Robert Bruce, Earl of Carrick ', knight
: his arms are recorded ca. 1285 as
' Or a saltire and a chief gules ' (St. George's Roll E93[21])

Spouse: Marjorie, countess of Carrick
Death: bef 9 Nov 1292[14]
Father: Neil, Earl of Carrick (ca1230-1256)
Mother: Isabel
Marr: 1271[10]

Children: Robert I, King of Scots [ 'Robert the Bruce' ]
Edward (~1276-1318)
Christian (-ca1356)
Maud (->1323)
Mary
Isabella
Neil (-1306)
Thomas (-1306)
Alexander (-1306)
Margaret



1. Joseph Bain, ed., "Calendar of Documents relating to Scotland,"
Edinburgh: Her Majesty's General Register House, 1881 (Vol. I),
full title: Calendar of Documents relating to Scotland,
Preserved in Her Majesty's Public Record Office, London.
2. "Gazetteer of Markets and Fairs to 1516,"
http://www.histparl.ac.uk/cmh/gaz/
3. William Farrer, Hon.D.Litt., Editor, "Early Yorkshire Charters,"
Ballantyne, Hanson & Co., Edinburgh, 1915-1916, Vol. II (1915)
Vol. III (1916), Vol. XII [the family of Constable of
Flamborough], courtesy Rosie Bevan, Vol. V [Manfield fee,
pp. 53-58 ], courtesy Rosie Bevan, <Re: Avice de Tanfield,
wife of Robert Marmion>, SGM, 26 Feb 2002.
4. Andrew B. W. MacEwen, "telephone conference re: (1) Isabel
de Dunbar, wife of Roger fitz John of Warkworth," (2) Christina
Stewart, countess of Dunbar; (3) Cecilia, dau. of John fitz
Robert of Wark, reference made to his publications on The Seven
Countesses, and 1999 article on Alexander Sutherland of Dunbeath
and his mistress, Catherine Chalmers, 28 October 2004, notes,
library of John P. Ravilious.
5. Andrew B. W. MacEwen, "SEVEN SCOTTISH COUNTESSES: A MISCELLANY,
III. Cristina de Brus, Countess of Dunbar," The Genealogist,
Fall 2003 (Volume 17, No. 2), pp. 223-233, identifieds Christina
Stewart, countess of Dunbar, part of a series on 'the Seven
Scottish Countesses', per telephone conference 28 October 2004,
notes, library of John P. Ravilious.
6. Sir James Balfour Paul, ed., "The Scots Peerage," Edinburgh:
David Douglas, 1904-1914 (9 volumes).
7. Andrew B. W. MacEwen, "A Clarification of the Dunbar Pedigree,"
The Genealogist, Vol. 9, No. 2, 1991, pp. 229-241, cites Joseph
Stevenson, ed., Cronica de Mailros, E Codice Unico in
Bibliotheca Cottoniana Servato (Edinburgh, 1835), and other
sources.
8. George Chalmers, "Caledonia, Or, A Historical and Topographical
Account of North Britain."
9. Alan O. Anderson, "Scottish Annals from English Chroniclers,
A.D. 500 to 1286," London: David Nutt, 1908.
10. G. E. Cokayne, "The Complete Peerage," 1910 - [microprint,
1982 (Alan Sutton) ], The Complete Peerage of England Scotland
Ireland Great Britain and the United Kingdom.
11. Edward Bateson, "A History of Northumberland," London: Simpkin,
Marshall, Hamilton, Kent, & Company, Limited, 1895, Vol.
II - Embleton parish (Rennington and Broxfield), pp. 151-153),
images, courtesy Ancestry.com.
12. I. J. Sanders, "English Baronies: A Study of Their Origin and
Descent, 1086-1327," Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1960.
13. William Farrer, Litt.D., "Honors and Knights' Fees," London:
Spottiswoode, Ballantyne & Co., Ltd., 1924 (3 vols.), Vol I:,
Vol II: Chester; Huntingdon, Vol III: Arundel, Eudes the Sewer,
Warenne.
14. G. W. S. Barrow, "Robert Bruce and the Community of the Realm
of Scotland," Edinburgh University Press, 1976 (2nd ed.).
15. Charles J. Leslie, "Historical Records of the Family of
Leslie," Edinburgh: Edmonston and Douglas, 1869, .pdf image
files provided by Genealogy.com http://www.genealogy.com.
16. William Paley Baildon, F.S.A., "Notes on the Religious and
Secular Houses of Yorkshire, Vol. I," The Yorkshire
Archaeological Society Record Series, Vol. XVII, Printed for the
Society, 1894.
17. William Fraser, "The Red Book of Menteith," Edinburgh: 1880,
.pdf image files provided by Genealogy.com
http://www.genealogy.com, history and evidences concerning the
Earls and Earldom of Mentieth.
18. Joseph Stevenson, "Documents illustrative of the history of
Scotland from the death of King Alexander the Third to the
Accession of Robert Bruce," Edinburgh: H. M. General Register
House, 1870 (Vol. I).
19. "Clan Stirling,"
http://www.clanstirling.org/uploads/ragmanrolls.pdf
provides .pdf file of the names of those who swore allegiance
to Edward I of England at Berwick, 1296 (the 'Ragman Rolls').
20. "Access to Archives," http://www.a2a.pro.gov.uk/
21. Brian Timms, "St George's Roll," College of Arms, London, MS
Vincent 164 ff 1-21b., http://www.briantimms.com/rolls/
Dated c1285. Painted, containing 677 shields., Source: Gerard J
Brault, Rolls of Arms of Edward I, Boydell & Brewer, 1997.


* John P. Ravilious

Gjest

Re: Eilika von Lengenfeld and 'related' questions

Legg inn av Gjest » 05 aug 2006 14:31:02

Dear Leo,

Thanks for your replies, and your notation below.

See also Peter Stewart's reply on both issues; I will
be correcting my database, and making notations as to
the issues involved.

Cheers,

John

Gjest

Re: Russian ancestors of early modern English nobility

Legg inn av Gjest » 05 aug 2006 16:21:02

Dear Will,
The details are at Genealogics.org , Charles Evans did " The
Counts of Oldenburg: the Paternal Ancstry of the Prince of Wales " in TAG
many years ago plus It`s covered in The Genealogist magazine`s on-going
Medieval Heritage: the Ancestry of Charles II, King of Great Britain by Neil D
Thompson and Charles M Hansen, a index (pedigree) of which can be found at the
Foundation for Medieval Genealogy site. In breif, Margaret of Denmark, Queen of
Scots` Great Great Grandparents were Conrad I, Count of Oldenburg-Oldenburg,
Ingeborg of Holstein- Plon , Dietrich V, of Honstein- Heringen, Sophie of
Brunswick, Henry II, Count of Holstein-Rendsburg , Ingeborg of Mecklenburg-
Schwerin, Magnus II, Duke of Brunswick- Luneburg, Katarina of Anhalt-Bernburg (note
Evans gave her mother as Agnes of Saxe-Wittenburg, Misters Thompson and
Hansen give Matilda of Anhalt-Zerbst as her mother. Bernhard III, Prince of
Anhalt- Bernburg was her father.), Frederick V, Burgrave of Nurnburg Elisabeth of
Meissen, Frederick, Duke of Bavaria-Landshut, Maddalena Visconti , Wenceslas,
Electoral Prince of Saxony, Cecilia di Carrara , Rupert I, Duke of
Silesia-Liegnitz, Agnes of Silesia-Glogau
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

Gjest

Re: Russian ancestors of early modern English nobility

Legg inn av Gjest » 05 aug 2006 19:41:02

Dear Will and Others,
Wouldn`t You know it, I goofed !

Rupert I, Duke of Silesia-Leignitz was married not to Agnes of Glogau (her
aunt, wife of Duke Louis I of Breig - Luben) but to Jadwiga of Silesia-
Sagan,daughter of Henry V ( III), Duke of Silesia- Sagan- Glogau by his wife Anna of
Plock.
Wladyslaw II, breifly King of Poland d 1159 married Agnes, daughter
of Leopold III, Duke of Austria by Agnes of Germany, daughter of Emperor Henry
IV.
Wladyslaw II was the eldest son of King Boleslaw III of Poland by his 1st
wife Zbyslawa, daughter of Grand Duke Sviatopolk II of Kief and was given the
title of Duke of Silesia after abdication/deposition, Wladyslaw II split
Silesia into Upper Silesia for his son Boleslaw I d1201 who married Adelaide,
daughter of Count Berengar III of Sulzbach and Mszieko I who was Duke of Lower
Silesia.
Boleslaw I who made his capital at Wroclaw
was succeeded by his son Henry I d 1238 who married Hedwig of Andechs, their
son Henry II, Duke of Silesia- Wroclaw was killed in a battle with the Mongols
in 1241. He married Anna, daughter of Premysl Otakar I, Duke, then King of
Bohemia by Constance of Hungary
Henry II, Duke of Silesia-Wroclaw and Anna of Bohemia had at least three
sons, Henry III d 1266 m 1st Judith of Mazovia, 2nd Helen of Saxony, Duke of
Breslau`s line ended with his son Henry IV, Duke of Breslau d 1290, the 2nd son
Boleslaw II was Duke of Silesia- Liegnitz d 1278 and was father of Henry V,
Duke of Breslau d 1296 who married Elisabeth of Great Poland who had Henry VI,
Duke of Breslau d 1335 m Agnes of Austria and Boleslaw III, Duke of Liegnitz-
Breig d 1352 who married Margaret of Bohemia and had Waclaw I, Duke of
Liegnitz-Luben who married Anna of Silesia- Tschen (a descendant of Mszieko I of Lower
Silesia) and were parents of Duke Rupert I of Liegnitz- Luben who married
Jadwiga of Sagan (mentioned above) Boleslaw III of Leignitz- Breig was also
father by Margaret of Bohemia of Ludwik (Louis I) who married Agnes of Glogau,
daughter of Henry IV (II) , Duke of Silesia- Glogau -Sagan by Matilda of
Brandenburg, They were parents of Margaret of Breig who married Count Albert I of
Holland and had a daughter Margaret, wife of John the Fearless, Duke of Burgundy
and parents of Mary of Burgundy, wife of Adolf I, Duke of Cleve, parents of
Catherine of Cleve, wife of Arnold of Egmond, Duke of Guelders, parents of Mary
of Guelders, wife of James II, King of Scots, Boleslaw I, Duke of Upper
Silesia`s 3rd son was Conrad I, Duke of SIlesia-Glogau d 1273 married Salome of
Great Poland and had Henry III (I), Duke of Silesia- Glogau d 1309 married
Matilda of Brunswick, had Henry IV (II) Duke of Silesia- Glogau- Sagan d 1342
married Matilda of Brandenburg, had Henry V (III), Duke of Silesia- Glogau- Sagan
married Anna of Plock, parents of Jadwiga of Silesia- Glogau- Sagan, wife of
Rupert I, Duke of Liegnitz_ Luben. Henry I (III), Duke of Glogau and Matilda of
Brunswick were also the parents of Duke Louis IV of Bavaria, later Emperor
Louis IV`s 1st wife Beatrice of Glogau (They had among others Stefan III, Duke
of Bavaria-Landshut who married Elizabeth of Sicily and had Fredrick, Duke of
Bavaria- Landshut who married Maddlena, daughter of Bernabo Visconti, Lord of
Milan by Beatrice Della Scala) Louis IV married 2nd Margaret of Holland, sister
of Philippa of Hainault, Queen of England and by her was father of Albert I,
Duke of Bavaria-Straubing and Count of Holland who married Louis I, Duke of
Breig - Luben`s daughter Margaret of Breig.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
(Sorces: In Part Pedigrees of some of the Emperor Charlemagne`s descendants
I by M D von Redlich, Poland , Bohemia, Hungary tables in Heraldy of the
Royal Families of Europe, various notes I took years ago)

Tony Hoskins

Re: Lashbrook/Lashbrooks - Locherbroc - Lacherbrok

Legg inn av Tony Hoskins » 05 aug 2006 20:56:02

Seems likely to be an English "West Country" family- from Devon and
Cornwall.

http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/ ... _form=true

Ginny Wagner

William de Bec

Legg inn av Ginny Wagner » 05 aug 2006 23:25:02

In a list of the monks at St. Neot's priory, according to G.
C. Gorham, page 95, William de Bec (otherwise, William
Letteron), a Monk of Bec, received the vacant office, on 30,
June 1302, on the recommendation of Gibbert, last Earl of
Glouceter, to the Abbot of Bec [Institution Rolls and
Registers, Lincoln Cathedral].

Ginny Wagner

"If still in images we see
When shall we grasp reality?"
-- Peter the Deacon

Lockehead

Re: Eupheme de Brus

Legg inn av Lockehead » 06 aug 2006 04:25:37

Thank you for the prompt response. I thought that the relationship
would be closer than that.

Frank
Therav3@aol.com wrote:
Saturday, 5 August 2006


Dear Frank,

The following partial pedigree links Eupheme (or Euphemia)
de Brus to her brother Robert (d. bef 27 Aug 1237), Lord of
Annandale and great-grandfather of Robert 'the Bruce'.

Cheers,

John *




1 William de Brus
----------------------------------------
Death: 16 Jun 1212[1],[2],[3]
Occ: Lord of Annandale
Father: Robert de Brus (-?1193)
Mother: Eufemia de Aumale

of Hartlepool, co. Durham
Lord of Annandale [Scot.]

'William de Brus', witness [with Bernard de Brus and others] to
charter of Robert de Brus * granted Elton, near Stockton, to
William de Humetz, before 1184 [EYC II:4, no. 650 -note 3; cites
Brit. Mus., Cott. ch. xviii, 50][3]

grant of a messuage in Hartlepool to the monks of Durham by
father Robert de Brus witnessed by sons,
'Roberto, Willelmo et Bernardo filiis meis,..' and others,
ca. 1170-1190 [EYC II:8, no. 658][3]

record of an assessment, 1194-5:
' 229. Cumberland: -
For the scutage of knights in Cumberland after the
K.'s [Richard's] second coronation..... William de Brus
accounts for 10s. '
[Cal. Doc. Scotland I:35[1], cites Pipe Roll 6 Ric. I, Rot. 9]

had charters for a market [mercatum] and fair, granted 1201 by
King John to William de Brus; ' William owed 20m. for having
a market and a fair lasting three days ' (PR, 3 John,
pp. 249-50)[2]

* called Robert II de Brus (more likely, the father of William)


Re: his wife Christian, or Cristina:

her dower included a third of the manor of Hartlepool, co.
Durham, as evidenced by agreement with her son and heir Robert
de Brus:
' On 11 Nov 1218, an agreement between Robert Brus and Patrick,
earl of Dunbar and C. the countess, records that Patrick was
to retain one third of the market (Calendar of Documents
relating to Scotland, i, 1108-1272, p. 123, no. 700). '[2]

identified by Andrew B. W. MacEwen as Christian/Christina le
Stewart, daughter of Walter fitz Alan[4],[5]

she m. 1stly William de Brus,
2ndly Patrick, earl of Dunbar[6]

Spouse: Christian 'filia Walter'
Father: Walter fitz Alan (-1177)
Mother: Eschina of Huntlaw

Children: Euphemia (-ca1267)
Robert (-<1237)
NN, m. Fearcher, earl of Ross
NN, a son


1.1 Euphemia de Brus
----------------------------------------
Death: ca 1267[6],[7]

' Euphemia, married Patrick, sixth Earl of Dunbar '
[ SP I:12, which gives her in error as daughter of Walter
fitz Alan the Steward; also, III:256-7, sub Dunbar, Earl
of Dunbar[6] ]

she had the manor of Birkynside, co. Lauderdale as her maritagium:
' The earl had with her in marriage the lands of Birkenside in
Lower Lauderdale, which had been granted to the first Stewart by
Malcolm IV. It was from the firm of those lands, that the Earl,
her husband, granted an annuity to the canons of Dryburgh. After
her husband's death, "Domina Euphemia comitissa sponse quondum
Patricii com. de Dunbar nunc in sua viduatate existen.," confirmed
to those canons the same annuity, "a firmis terrarum mearum
matrimonalium de Birkenside." ' [Chalmers p. 242[8] note (f),
cites Chart. Dryb., No. 85. Also SP III:256, cites Registrum
de Dryburgh, 84, 85[6] ]

~ identification as Euphemia de Brus (correction of account in SP
which shows her as a daughter of Walter le Stewart) by Andrew
B. W. MacEwen[4]
[ previously thought to have been possibly a 2nd wife, as Patrick,
7th Earl of Dunbar was b. say 1213 (SP III:257), evidently older
than Alexander le Stewart, supposed brother of Euphemia[6] {now
disproved}]

' Euphemia de Brus ', widow of the Earl of Dunbar, confirmed
a grant after 1248 [TG IX:231[7], cites Thompson, Northumberland
Pleas p. 215, no. 652]

Spouse: Patrick, Earl of Dunbar
Death: aft 14 Apr 1248, Marseilles (en route to Crusade)[6],[9]
Birth: ca 1185[7]
Father: Patrick of Dunbar (1152-1232)
Mother: Ada of Scotland (-1200)

Children: Patrick (<1213-1289)
Waldeve, rector of Dunbar
Isabel, m. (1) Roger fitz John, of Warkworth


1.2 Robert de Brus
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 27 Aug 1237[10]
Occ: Lord of Annandale

of Hartlepool, co. Durham

he had succeeded his father before 13 June 1213, on which date his
younger brother (unnamed) was a hostage of the King of Scotland
for him, and was then residing with his cousin Peter de Brus.
A similar letter to the following, written
' to Peter de Brus concerning the brother of Robert de Brus '
[unidentified] a hostage of the King of Scotland placed with
Peter for safekeeping, to be transferred to the King of England's
custody, 13 June 1213 :
' 574. Concerning the K. of Scotland's hostages. The K. to S[aher]
earl of Winchester. Commands him on receipt, immediately to send
the K. by good and safe messengers, Reginald his own son, and the
son of William de Veteripont, hostages of the K. of Scotland, who
are in his custody by the K.'s order; so that they may be with the
K. at Portsmouth on the vigil of St. John Baptist instant.
Beaulieu. ' [Bain I:100-101[1], cites Foedera I:113; and Close
Roll 15 John, p. 1, m. 4]

' On 26 Jun 1215, Philip de Ulecot was notified that K John had
granted Robert de Brus, son and heir of William de Brus, a Wed
market [ and a fair on f+2 Laurence (10 Aug)] as it was set out
in the charter (RLC, i, p. 217). On 11 Nov 1218, an agreement
between Robert Brus and Patrick, earl of Dunbar and C. the
countess, records that Patrick was to retain one third of the
market (Calendar of Documents relating to Scotland, i, 1108-1272,
p. 123, no. 700). '[2][see also Bain, Cal. Docs. Scotland I:110,
No. 624 dated 26 June 1215[1]]


Re: his wife Isabel:

2nd daughter of Earl David, and coheiress of her brother, John,
Earl of Chester

had the manors of Hatfield Regis and Writtle, Essex as her
share of the Chester inheritance (or in lieu thereof), 1238
[acc. to Sanders, held ' for the service of 1 knight's fee in
exchange for her share of the Chester estates', p. 102[12]]

also held to have received possession of Great Baddow,
Essex, 1243 (Farrer, HKF II: 47)[13]

'Her manors of Writtle and Hatfield (Broad Oak), Essex and the
1/2 hundred pertaining to Hatfield, were taken into the King's
hand before 20 Mar 1251/52, and her son did homage therefor in
Apr. or May. These manors, &c., had been granted to her, 16 Oct.
1241, in exchange for her share of the inheritance of John, Earl
of Chester, in that Earldom.'[10]

Spouse: Isabel of Huntingdon
Death: bef 20 Mar 1251[10]
Father: David of Scotland, Earl of Huntingdon (-1219)
Mother: Maud of Chester (1171-ca1233)

Children: Robert (1210-1295)


1.2.1a Robert de Brus*
----------------------------------------
Birth: 1210[14]
Death: 31 Mar 1295, Lochmaben Castle[10],[14]
Burial: 17 Apr 1295, Guisborough Priory[10]
Occ: Lord of Annandale

Lord of Annandale
[England] of Hartlepool, co. Durham, Writtle and Hatfield, Essex
& c.[10]

A charter of King Alexander II granted to Norinus, son of Norman
de Lesslyn, ' at the instance of Isabel de Brus and Robert de Brus
her son ' [" ad instanciam Isobile de Bruiss et Roberti de Bruiss
filii sui "], witnessed by William, earl of Mar, Alexander the son
of Walter the Steward ["Alexandero filio Walteri Senescallo"],
John Comyn and Nicholas de Soulis, dated at Edinburgh, 4 Dec 1248
[Leslie p. 152, Appendix VI[15], citing original charter in the
Charter-room of the Earls of Rothes at Leslie House]

allegedly designated successor of Alexander II, c. 1251[14]

' Robertus de Brus ', one of the Regents of Scotland and
guardians of Alexander III, appointed 20 September 1255[10]

supporter of King Henry III in England, April 1264 at Nottingham;

fought at Battle of Lewes, 14 May 1264 and captured by de
Montfort's forces, together with John Comyn of Badenoch and
John Baliol [Flores Historiarum II:496, as cited by Anderson,
p. 380[9]] - ransomed by son Robert[14]

his son Richard de Brus had grant of the marriage and custody of
the lands of Ralph de Tosny, 8 August 1265 * [probable as reward
for support of King Henry III at Evesham and before - originally
granted to Humphrey de Bohun and Edmund of Lancaster, 12 May
1264][10]

* order for William de St. Omer to delivery him to
'Richard' de Brus, 19 Sept 1265 [CP Vol. XII/I,
Tony, p. 773 and note b, citing Cal. Patent Rolls and
Close Rolls][10]



' Robertus de Bruse, dominus vallis Anandaie ', together with his
sons Robert snd Richard, entered into a bond with Patrick, earl of
Dunbar, Walter, earl of Menteith and others at Turnberry, 20 Sept
1286 'to adhere to the party of Richard de Burgh, earl of Ulster
and Sir Thomas de Clare ' [Red Book of Menteith II: 219-220,
citing Historical Docs. Scotland, i:22[17] ]

' Robert de Brus, sire de Val de Anant', one of the barons of
Scotland [listed first] attending the Parliament at Brigham who
confirmed the Treaty of Salisbury with England, 14 Mar 1289/90
[Stevenson I:129-130, No. XCII[18]]

' Brus dominus Vallis Anandie, Robertus de (Robert de
Brus feignor du Val Danant). ' - swore allegiance to King
Edward I at Berwick, 1291 [Ragman Roll[19] ]

competitor for the Scottish succession, 1292[6]


he m. 1stly Isabel de Clare,
2ndly Christiana _____

Spouse: Isabel de Clare[6]
Birth: 8 Nov 1226[10]
Death: bef 10 May 1275[10]
Father: Gilbert de Clare, Earl of Gloucester and Hertford (-1230)
Mother: Isabel le Marshal (1200-1239)
Marr: abt 1240

Children: Robert (1243-<1304)
Richard (-1287)
John
Alicia [Aloysia]
Isabel
Mary (->1282)
Bernard (-<1269)

Other Spouses Christiana de Ireby


1.2.1a.1a Robert de Brus*
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 4 Apr 1304[14],[10]
Birth: Jul 1243[10]
Occ: Earl of Carrick de jure uxoris; Lord Brus

Earl of Carrick, de jure uxoris
[England] of Hartlepool, co. Durham, and Writtle, Baddow,
Hatfield Broadoak and Broomshawbury, Essex[10]

' Robertus de Brus comes de Carryke ', together with his father
and brother Richard, entered into a bond with Patrick, earl of
Dunbar, Walter, earl of Menteith and others at Turnberry, 20 Sept
1286 'to adhere to the party of Richard de Burgh, earl of Ulster
and Sir Thomas de Clare ' [Red Book of Menteith II: 219-220,
citing Historical Docs. Scotland, i:22[17] ]

Confirmation dated at Bronsho 6 Kal. Jan. 16 Ed. 1 [27 Dec.1287]
{copy, undated: 15th century}:
' 1. Lord Robert de Brus, Earl of Carryk, son of
Lord Robert de Brus, Lord Wallanand'
2.a. Matthew son of Roger Draparii of Braunketre
b. Amicia his wife.
Hatfeld Regis, [Essex]: messuage formerly of Richard son
of Godfrey, father of 2b.; and a croft called
Godyeveleye. Consideration: £20; rent 20s. p.a.
Witnesses: Lord Oliver Morell, Lord Wyscard Ledet, Lord John
de la Mare, Lord John de Merk, kts., Nicolas de
Baryngton, Peter de Haselingefeld, etc. John de
Bledelowe, steward, and others. ' [Endorsement:
"Copia carte privileg' pro E.Froddesham".] - A2A,
London Metropolitan Archives: The Corporation of the
Sons of the Clergy [A/CSC/537 - A/CSC/2627], Hatfield
Broad Oak Estate, Essex; Brainstris and Hempstalls:
DATED DEEDS, A/CSC/1279[20]

' Robert de Carrike ', one of the Earls of Scotland attending the
Parliament at Brigham, which confirmed the Treaty of Salisbury
with England, 14 Mar 1289/90 [Stevenson I:129-130, No. XCII[18]]

' Brus comes de Carryk, Robertus de ' - swore allegiance to King
Edward I at Berwick, 1291 [Ragman Roll[19] ]

performed homage and had livery of his father's English lands,
4 Jul 1295
summoned to attend the King at Shrewsbury, 28 June 1283 by
writ directed 'Roberto de Brus comiti de Carrik'[10]

' In 1293, Robert de Brus had a market in Hartlepool, within
the liberties of the bp of Durham (QW, p. 604).'[2]

summoned to Parliament (England) from 24 June 1295 by writ directed
'Roberto de Brus', held thereby to have become Lord Brus[10]

Earl of Carrick in right of his wife; resigned Earldom to son,
9 Nov 1292; Lord of Annandale 1292-1304[14]

' Robert Bruce, Earl of Carrick ', knight
: his arms are recorded ca. 1285 as
' Or a saltire and a chief gules ' (St. George's Roll E93[21])

Spouse: Marjorie, countess of Carrick
Death: bef 9 Nov 1292[14]
Father: Neil, Earl of Carrick (ca1230-1256)
Mother: Isabel
Marr: 1271[10]

Children: Robert I, King of Scots [ 'Robert the Bruce' ]
Edward (~1276-1318)
Christian (-ca1356)
Maud (->1323)
Mary
Isabella
Neil (-1306)
Thomas (-1306)
Alexander (-1306)
Margaret



1. Joseph Bain, ed., "Calendar of Documents relating to Scotland,"
Edinburgh: Her Majesty's General Register House, 1881 (Vol. I),
full title: Calendar of Documents relating to Scotland,
Preserved in Her Majesty's Public Record Office, London.
2. "Gazetteer of Markets and Fairs to 1516,"
http://www.histparl.ac.uk/cmh/gaz/
3. William Farrer, Hon.D.Litt., Editor, "Early Yorkshire Charters,"
Ballantyne, Hanson & Co., Edinburgh, 1915-1916, Vol. II (1915)
Vol. III (1916), Vol. XII [the family of Constable of
Flamborough], courtesy Rosie Bevan, Vol. V [Manfield fee,
pp. 53-58 ], courtesy Rosie Bevan, <Re: Avice de Tanfield,
wife of Robert Marmion>, SGM, 26 Feb 2002.
4. Andrew B. W. MacEwen, "telephone conference re: (1) Isabel
de Dunbar, wife of Roger fitz John of Warkworth," (2) Christina
Stewart, countess of Dunbar; (3) Cecilia, dau. of John fitz
Robert of Wark, reference made to his publications on The Seven
Countesses, and 1999 article on Alexander Sutherland of Dunbeath
and his mistress, Catherine Chalmers, 28 October 2004, notes,
library of John P. Ravilious.
5. Andrew B. W. MacEwen, "SEVEN SCOTTISH COUNTESSES: A MISCELLANY,
III. Cristina de Brus, Countess of Dunbar," The Genealogist,
Fall 2003 (Volume 17, No. 2), pp. 223-233, identifieds Christina
Stewart, countess of Dunbar, part of a series on 'the Seven
Scottish Countesses', per telephone conference 28 October 2004,
notes, library of John P. Ravilious.
6. Sir James Balfour Paul, ed., "The Scots Peerage," Edinburgh:
David Douglas, 1904-1914 (9 volumes).
7. Andrew B. W. MacEwen, "A Clarification of the Dunbar Pedigree,"
The Genealogist, Vol. 9, No. 2, 1991, pp. 229-241, cites Joseph
Stevenson, ed., Cronica de Mailros, E Codice Unico in
Bibliotheca Cottoniana Servato (Edinburgh, 1835), and other
sources.
8. George Chalmers, "Caledonia, Or, A Historical and Topographical
Account of North Britain."
9. Alan O. Anderson, "Scottish Annals from English Chroniclers,
A.D. 500 to 1286," London: David Nutt, 1908.
10. G. E. Cokayne, "The Complete Peerage," 1910 - [microprint,
1982 (Alan Sutton) ], The Complete Peerage of England Scotland
Ireland Great Britain and the United Kingdom.
11. Edward Bateson, "A History of Northumberland," London: Simpkin,
Marshall, Hamilton, Kent, & Company, Limited, 1895, Vol.
II - Embleton parish (Rennington and Broxfield), pp. 151-153),
images, courtesy Ancestry.com.
12. I. J. Sanders, "English Baronies: A Study of Their Origin and
Descent, 1086-1327," Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1960.
13. William Farrer, Litt.D., "Honors and Knights' Fees," London:
Spottiswoode, Ballantyne & Co., Ltd., 1924 (3 vols.), Vol I:,
Vol II: Chester; Huntingdon, Vol III: Arundel, Eudes the Sewer,
Warenne.
14. G. W. S. Barrow, "Robert Bruce and the Community of the Realm
of Scotland," Edinburgh University Press, 1976 (2nd ed.).
15. Charles J. Leslie, "Historical Records of the Family of
Leslie," Edinburgh: Edmonston and Douglas, 1869, .pdf image
files provided by Genealogy.com http://www.genealogy.com.
16. William Paley Baildon, F.S.A., "Notes on the Religious and
Secular Houses of Yorkshire, Vol. I," The Yorkshire
Archaeological Society Record Series, Vol. XVII, Printed for the
Society, 1894.
17. William Fraser, "The Red Book of Menteith," Edinburgh: 1880,
.pdf image files provided by Genealogy.com
http://www.genealogy.com, history and evidences concerning the
Earls and Earldom of Mentieth.
18. Joseph Stevenson, "Documents illustrative of the history of
Scotland from the death of King Alexander the Third to the
Accession of Robert Bruce," Edinburgh: H. M. General Register
House, 1870 (Vol. I).
19. "Clan Stirling,"
http://www.clanstirling.org/uploads/ragmanrolls.pdf
provides .pdf file of the names of those who swore allegiance
to Edward I of England at Berwick, 1296 (the 'Ragman Rolls').
20. "Access to Archives," http://www.a2a.pro.gov.uk/
21. Brian Timms, "St George's Roll," College of Arms, London, MS
Vincent 164 ff 1-21b., http://www.briantimms.com/rolls/
Dated c1285. Painted, containing 677 shields., Source: Gerard J
Brault, Rolls of Arms of Edward I, Boydell & Brewer, 1997.


* John P. Ravilious

John P. Ravilious

Re: Eupheme de Brus

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 06 aug 2006 05:00:20

Dear Frank,

You're more than welcome.

One chronological note which does underscore the relationship
as indicated: Patrick, earl of Dunbar and son of Euphemia de Brus, was
born before 13 Dec 1213 (CP IV:565). Robert de Brus, Lord of Annandale
('the Competitor' and grandfather of Robert _the_ Bruce) and son of
Robert, brother of Euphemia, was born in 1210 (acc. to G.W.S. Barrow,
and repeated widely although I've not seen contemporaneous
documentation as of yet). As first cousins, Patrick and Robert were
evidently born fairly close together, which as eldest sons of two
siblings is certainly reasonable.

Cheers,

John



Lockehead wrote:
Thank you for the prompt response. I thought that the relationship
would be closer than that.

Frank
Therav3@aol.com wrote:
Saturday, 5 August 2006


Dear Frank,

The following partial pedigree links Eupheme (or Euphemia)
de Brus to her brother Robert (d. bef 27 Aug 1237), Lord of
Annandale and great-grandfather of Robert 'the Bruce'.

Cheers,

John *




1 William de Brus
----------------------------------------
Death: 16 Jun 1212[1],[2],[3]
Occ: Lord of Annandale
Father: Robert de Brus (-?1193)
Mother: Eufemia de Aumale

of Hartlepool, co. Durham
Lord of Annandale [Scot.]

'William de Brus', witness [with Bernard de Brus and others] to
charter of Robert de Brus * granted Elton, near Stockton, to
William de Humetz, before 1184 [EYC II:4, no. 650 -note 3; cites
Brit. Mus., Cott. ch. xviii, 50][3]

grant of a messuage in Hartlepool to the monks of Durham by
father Robert de Brus witnessed by sons,
'Roberto, Willelmo et Bernardo filiis meis,..' and others,
ca. 1170-1190 [EYC II:8, no. 658][3]

record of an assessment, 1194-5:
' 229. Cumberland: -
For the scutage of knights in Cumberland after the
K.'s [Richard's] second coronation..... William de Brus
accounts for 10s. '
[Cal. Doc. Scotland I:35[1], cites Pipe Roll 6 Ric. I, Rot. 9]

had charters for a market [mercatum] and fair, granted 1201 by
King John to William de Brus; ' William owed 20m. for having
a market and a fair lasting three days ' (PR, 3 John,
pp. 249-50)[2]

* called Robert II de Brus (more likely, the father of William)


Re: his wife Christian, or Cristina:

her dower included a third of the manor of Hartlepool, co.
Durham, as evidenced by agreement with her son and heir Robert
de Brus:
' On 11 Nov 1218, an agreement between Robert Brus and Patrick,
earl of Dunbar and C. the countess, records that Patrick was
to retain one third of the market (Calendar of Documents
relating to Scotland, i, 1108-1272, p. 123, no. 700). '[2]

identified by Andrew B. W. MacEwen as Christian/Christina le
Stewart, daughter of Walter fitz Alan[4],[5]

she m. 1stly William de Brus,
2ndly Patrick, earl of Dunbar[6]

Spouse: Christian 'filia Walter'
Father: Walter fitz Alan (-1177)
Mother: Eschina of Huntlaw

Children: Euphemia (-ca1267)
Robert (-<1237)
NN, m. Fearcher, earl of Ross
NN, a son


1.1 Euphemia de Brus
----------------------------------------
Death: ca 1267[6],[7]

' Euphemia, married Patrick, sixth Earl of Dunbar '
[ SP I:12, which gives her in error as daughter of Walter
fitz Alan the Steward; also, III:256-7, sub Dunbar, Earl
of Dunbar[6] ]

she had the manor of Birkynside, co. Lauderdale as her maritagium:
' The earl had with her in marriage the lands of Birkenside in
Lower Lauderdale, which had been granted to the first Stewart by
Malcolm IV. It was from the firm of those lands, that the Earl,
her husband, granted an annuity to the canons of Dryburgh. After
her husband's death, "Domina Euphemia comitissa sponse quondum
Patricii com. de Dunbar nunc in sua viduatate existen.," confirmed
to those canons the same annuity, "a firmis terrarum mearum
matrimonalium de Birkenside." ' [Chalmers p. 242[8] note (f),
cites Chart. Dryb., No. 85. Also SP III:256, cites Registrum
de Dryburgh, 84, 85[6] ]

~ identification as Euphemia de Brus (correction of account in SP
which shows her as a daughter of Walter le Stewart) by Andrew
B. W. MacEwen[4]
[ previously thought to have been possibly a 2nd wife, as Patrick,
7th Earl of Dunbar was b. say 1213 (SP III:257), evidently older
than Alexander le Stewart, supposed brother of Euphemia[6] {now
disproved}]

' Euphemia de Brus ', widow of the Earl of Dunbar, confirmed
a grant after 1248 [TG IX:231[7], cites Thompson, Northumberland
Pleas p. 215, no. 652]

Spouse: Patrick, Earl of Dunbar
Death: aft 14 Apr 1248, Marseilles (en route to Crusade)[6],[9]
Birth: ca 1185[7]
Father: Patrick of Dunbar (1152-1232)
Mother: Ada of Scotland (-1200)

Children: Patrick (<1213-1289)
Waldeve, rector of Dunbar
Isabel, m. (1) Roger fitz John, of Warkworth


1.2 Robert de Brus
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 27 Aug 1237[10]
Occ: Lord of Annandale

of Hartlepool, co. Durham

he had succeeded his father before 13 June 1213, on which date his
younger brother (unnamed) was a hostage of the King of Scotland
for him, and was then residing with his cousin Peter de Brus.
A similar letter to the following, written
' to Peter de Brus concerning the brother of Robert de Brus '
[unidentified] a hostage of the King of Scotland placed with
Peter for safekeeping, to be transferred to the King of England's
custody, 13 June 1213 :
' 574. Concerning the K. of Scotland's hostages. The K. to S[aher]
earl of Winchester. Commands him on receipt, immediately to send
the K. by good and safe messengers, Reginald his own son, and the
son of William de Veteripont, hostages of the K. of Scotland, who
are in his custody by the K.'s order; so that they may be with the
K. at Portsmouth on the vigil of St. John Baptist instant.
Beaulieu. ' [Bain I:100-101[1], cites Foedera I:113; and Close
Roll 15 John, p. 1, m. 4]

' On 26 Jun 1215, Philip de Ulecot was notified that K John had
granted Robert de Brus, son and heir of William de Brus, a Wed
market [ and a fair on f+2 Laurence (10 Aug)] as it was set out
in the charter (RLC, i, p. 217). On 11 Nov 1218, an agreement
between Robert Brus and Patrick, earl of Dunbar and C. the
countess, records that Patrick was to retain one third of the
market (Calendar of Documents relating to Scotland, i, 1108-1272,
p. 123, no. 700). '[2][see also Bain, Cal. Docs. Scotland I:110,
No. 624 dated 26 June 1215[1]]


Re: his wife Isabel:

2nd daughter of Earl David, and coheiress of her brother, John,
Earl of Chester

had the manors of Hatfield Regis and Writtle, Essex as her
share of the Chester inheritance (or in lieu thereof), 1238
[acc. to Sanders, held ' for the service of 1 knight's fee in
exchange for her share of the Chester estates', p. 102[12]]

also held to have received possession of Great Baddow,
Essex, 1243 (Farrer, HKF II: 47)[13]

'Her manors of Writtle and Hatfield (Broad Oak), Essex and the
1/2 hundred pertaining to Hatfield, were taken into the King's
hand before 20 Mar 1251/52, and her son did homage therefor in
Apr. or May. These manors, &c., had been granted to her, 16 Oct.
1241, in exchange for her share of the inheritance of John, Earl
of Chester, in that Earldom.'[10]

Spouse: Isabel of Huntingdon
Death: bef 20 Mar 1251[10]
Father: David of Scotland, Earl of Huntingdon (-1219)
Mother: Maud of Chester (1171-ca1233)

Children: Robert (1210-1295)


1.2.1a Robert de Brus*
----------------------------------------
Birth: 1210[14]
Death: 31 Mar 1295, Lochmaben Castle[10],[14]
Burial: 17 Apr 1295, Guisborough Priory[10]
Occ: Lord of Annandale

Lord of Annandale
[England] of Hartlepool, co. Durham, Writtle and Hatfield, Essex
& c.[10]

A charter of King Alexander II granted to Norinus, son of Norman
de Lesslyn, ' at the instance of Isabel de Brus and Robert de Brus
her son ' [" ad instanciam Isobile de Bruiss et Roberti de Bruiss
filii sui "], witnessed by William, earl of Mar, Alexander the son
of Walter the Steward ["Alexandero filio Walteri Senescallo"],
John Comyn and Nicholas de Soulis, dated at Edinburgh, 4 Dec 1248
[Leslie p. 152, Appendix VI[15], citing original charter in the
Charter-room of the Earls of Rothes at Leslie House]

allegedly designated successor of Alexander II, c. 1251[14]

' Robertus de Brus ', one of the Regents of Scotland and
guardians of Alexander III, appointed 20 September 1255[10]

supporter of King Henry III in England, April 1264 at Nottingham;

fought at Battle of Lewes, 14 May 1264 and captured by de
Montfort's forces, together with John Comyn of Badenoch and
John Baliol [Flores Historiarum II:496, as cited by Anderson,
p. 380[9]] - ransomed by son Robert[14]

his son Richard de Brus had grant of the marriage and custody of
the lands of Ralph de Tosny, 8 August 1265 * [probable as reward
for support of King Henry III at Evesham and before - originally
granted to Humphrey de Bohun and Edmund of Lancaster, 12 May
1264][10]

* order for William de St. Omer to delivery him to
'Richard' de Brus, 19 Sept 1265 [CP Vol. XII/I,
Tony, p. 773 and note b, citing Cal. Patent Rolls and
Close Rolls][10]



' Robertus de Bruse, dominus vallis Anandaie ', together with his
sons Robert snd Richard, entered into a bond with Patrick, earl of
Dunbar, Walter, earl of Menteith and others at Turnberry, 20 Sept
1286 'to adhere to the party of Richard de Burgh, earl of Ulster
and Sir Thomas de Clare ' [Red Book of Menteith II: 219-220,
citing Historical Docs. Scotland, i:22[17] ]

' Robert de Brus, sire de Val de Anant', one of the barons of
Scotland [listed first] attending the Parliament at Brigham who
confirmed the Treaty of Salisbury with England, 14 Mar 1289/90
[Stevenson I:129-130, No. XCII[18]]

' Brus dominus Vallis Anandie, Robertus de (Robert de
Brus feignor du Val Danant). ' - swore allegiance to King
Edward I at Berwick, 1291 [Ragman Roll[19] ]

competitor for the Scottish succession, 1292[6]


he m. 1stly Isabel de Clare,
2ndly Christiana _____

Spouse: Isabel de Clare[6]
Birth: 8 Nov 1226[10]
Death: bef 10 May 1275[10]
Father: Gilbert de Clare, Earl of Gloucester and Hertford (-1230)
Mother: Isabel le Marshal (1200-1239)
Marr: abt 1240

Children: Robert (1243-<1304)
Richard (-1287)
John
Alicia [Aloysia]
Isabel
Mary (->1282)
Bernard (-<1269)

Other Spouses Christiana de Ireby


1.2.1a.1a Robert de Brus*
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 4 Apr 1304[14],[10]
Birth: Jul 1243[10]
Occ: Earl of Carrick de jure uxoris; Lord Brus

Earl of Carrick, de jure uxoris
[England] of Hartlepool, co. Durham, and Writtle, Baddow,
Hatfield Broadoak and Broomshawbury, Essex[10]

' Robertus de Brus comes de Carryke ', together with his father
and brother Richard, entered into a bond with Patrick, earl of
Dunbar, Walter, earl of Menteith and others at Turnberry, 20 Sept
1286 'to adhere to the party of Richard de Burgh, earl of Ulster
and Sir Thomas de Clare ' [Red Book of Menteith II: 219-220,
citing Historical Docs. Scotland, i:22[17] ]

Confirmation dated at Bronsho 6 Kal. Jan. 16 Ed. 1 [27 Dec.1287]
{copy, undated: 15th century}:
' 1. Lord Robert de Brus, Earl of Carryk, son of
Lord Robert de Brus, Lord Wallanand'
2.a. Matthew son of Roger Draparii of Braunketre
b. Amicia his wife.
Hatfeld Regis, [Essex]: messuage formerly of Richard son
of Godfrey, father of 2b.; and a croft called
Godyeveleye. Consideration: £20; rent 20s. p.a.
Witnesses: Lord Oliver Morell, Lord Wyscard Ledet, Lord John
de la Mare, Lord John de Merk, kts., Nicolas de
Baryngton, Peter de Haselingefeld, etc. John de
Bledelowe, steward, and others. ' [Endorsement:
"Copia carte privileg' pro E.Froddesham".] - A2A,
London Metropolitan Archives: The Corporation of the
Sons of the Clergy [A/CSC/537 - A/CSC/2627], Hatfield
Broad Oak Estate, Essex; Brainstris and Hempstalls:
DATED DEEDS, A/CSC/1279[20]

' Robert de Carrike ', one of the Earls of Scotland attending the
Parliament at Brigham, which confirmed the Treaty of Salisbury
with England, 14 Mar 1289/90 [Stevenson I:129-130, No. XCII[18]]

' Brus comes de Carryk, Robertus de ' - swore allegiance to King
Edward I at Berwick, 1291 [Ragman Roll[19] ]

performed homage and had livery of his father's English lands,
4 Jul 1295
summoned to attend the King at Shrewsbury, 28 June 1283 by
writ directed 'Roberto de Brus comiti de Carrik'[10]

' In 1293, Robert de Brus had a market in Hartlepool, within
the liberties of the bp of Durham (QW, p. 604).'[2]

summoned to Parliament (England) from 24 June 1295 by writ directed
'Roberto de Brus', held thereby to have become Lord Brus[10]

Earl of Carrick in right of his wife; resigned Earldom to son,
9 Nov 1292; Lord of Annandale 1292-1304[14]

' Robert Bruce, Earl of Carrick ', knight
: his arms are recorded ca. 1285 as
' Or a saltire and a chief gules ' (St. George's Roll E93[21])

Spouse: Marjorie, countess of Carrick
Death: bef 9 Nov 1292[14]
Father: Neil, Earl of Carrick (ca1230-1256)
Mother: Isabel
Marr: 1271[10]

Children: Robert I, King of Scots [ 'Robert the Bruce' ]
Edward (~1276-1318)
Christian (-ca1356)
Maud (->1323)
Mary
Isabella
Neil (-1306)
Thomas (-1306)
Alexander (-1306)
Margaret



1. Joseph Bain, ed., "Calendar of Documents relating to Scotland,"
Edinburgh: Her Majesty's General Register House, 1881 (Vol. I),
full title: Calendar of Documents relating to Scotland,
Preserved in Her Majesty's Public Record Office, London.
2. "Gazetteer of Markets and Fairs to 1516,"
http://www.histparl.ac.uk/cmh/gaz/
3. William Farrer, Hon.D.Litt., Editor, "Early Yorkshire Charters,"
Ballantyne, Hanson & Co., Edinburgh, 1915-1916, Vol. II (1915)
Vol. III (1916), Vol. XII [the family of Constable of
Flamborough], courtesy Rosie Bevan, Vol. V [Manfield fee,
pp. 53-58 ], courtesy Rosie Bevan, <Re: Avice de Tanfield,
wife of Robert Marmion>, SGM, 26 Feb 2002.
4. Andrew B. W. MacEwen, "telephone conference re: (1) Isabel
de Dunbar, wife of Roger fitz John of Warkworth," (2) Christina
Stewart, countess of Dunbar; (3) Cecilia, dau. of John fitz
Robert of Wark, reference made to his publications on The Seven
Countesses, and 1999 article on Alexander Sutherland of Dunbeath
and his mistress, Catherine Chalmers, 28 October 2004, notes,
library of John P. Ravilious.
5. Andrew B. W. MacEwen, "SEVEN SCOTTISH COUNTESSES: A MISCELLANY,
III. Cristina de Brus, Countess of Dunbar," The Genealogist,
Fall 2003 (Volume 17, No. 2), pp. 223-233, identifieds Christina
Stewart, countess of Dunbar, part of a series on 'the Seven
Scottish Countesses', per telephone conference 28 October 2004,
notes, library of John P. Ravilious.
6. Sir James Balfour Paul, ed., "The Scots Peerage," Edinburgh:
David Douglas, 1904-1914 (9 volumes).
7. Andrew B. W. MacEwen, "A Clarification of the Dunbar Pedigree,"
The Genealogist, Vol. 9, No. 2, 1991, pp. 229-241, cites Joseph
Stevenson, ed., Cronica de Mailros, E Codice Unico in
Bibliotheca Cottoniana Servato (Edinburgh, 1835), and other
sources.
8. George Chalmers, "Caledonia, Or, A Historical and Topographical
Account of North Britain."
9. Alan O. Anderson, "Scottish Annals from English Chroniclers,
A.D. 500 to 1286," London: David Nutt, 1908.
10. G. E. Cokayne, "The Complete Peerage," 1910 - [microprint,
1982 (Alan Sutton) ], The Complete Peerage of England Scotland
Ireland Great Britain and the United Kingdom.
11. Edward Bateson, "A History of Northumberland," London: Simpkin,
Marshall, Hamilton, Kent, & Company, Limited, 1895, Vol.
II - Embleton parish (Rennington and Broxfield), pp. 151-153),
images, courtesy Ancestry.com.
12. I. J. Sanders, "English Baronies: A Study of Their Origin and
Descent, 1086-1327," Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1960.
13. William Farrer, Litt.D., "Honors and Knights' Fees," London:
Spottiswoode, Ballantyne & Co., Ltd., 1924 (3 vols.), Vol I:,
Vol II: Chester; Huntingdon, Vol III: Arundel, Eudes the Sewer,
Warenne.
14. G. W. S. Barrow, "Robert Bruce and the Community of the Realm
of Scotland," Edinburgh University Press, 1976 (2nd ed.).
15. Charles J. Leslie, "Historical Records of the Family of
Leslie," Edinburgh: Edmonston and Douglas, 1869, .pdf image
files provided by Genealogy.com http://www.genealogy.com.
16. William Paley Baildon, F.S.A., "Notes on the Religious and
Secular Houses of Yorkshire, Vol. I," The Yorkshire
Archaeological Society Record Series, Vol. XVII, Printed for the
Society, 1894.
17. William Fraser, "The Red Book of Menteith," Edinburgh: 1880,
.pdf image files provided by Genealogy.com
http://www.genealogy.com, history and evidences concerning the
Earls and Earldom of Mentieth.
18. Joseph Stevenson, "Documents illustrative of the history of
Scotland from the death of King Alexander the Third to the
Accession of Robert Bruce," Edinburgh: H. M. General Register
House, 1870 (Vol. I).
19. "Clan Stirling,"
http://www.clanstirling.org/uploads/ragmanrolls.pdf
provides .pdf file of the names of those who swore allegiance
to Edward I of England at Berwick, 1296 (the 'Ragman Rolls').
20. "Access to Archives," http://www.a2a.pro.gov.uk/
21. Brian Timms, "St George's Roll," College of Arms, London, MS
Vincent 164 ff 1-21b., http://www.briantimms.com/rolls/
Dated c1285. Painted, containing 677 shields., Source: Gerard J
Brault, Rolls of Arms of Edward I, Boydell & Brewer, 1997.


* John P. Ravilious

Gjest

Re: Eupheme de Brus

Legg inn av Gjest » 06 aug 2006 06:20:03

In a message dated 8/4/06 9:47:15 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Therav3@aol.com
writes:

<< Spouse: Patrick, Earl of Dunbar
Death: aft 14 Apr 1248, Marseilles (en route to Crusade)[6],[9] >>

After 14 Apr but also before 13 Dec as your below note
Will Johnson
-----------------------------------------------------
Subj: Dunbar dilemmas: Patrick, [8th] Earl of Dunbar
Date: 8/4/05 8:07:31 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: Therav3 * John P. Ravilious
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com

his father d. before 13 Dec 1248:
' #1750. Dec. 13, 1248.
The king has taken the homage of Patric earl of Dunbar for all the lands and
tenements that Patric his father held of the king in capite, and to which he
succeeds in heritage; and the Sheriff of Northumberland is commanded to give
him seizin, and to cause all the earl's men in the bailliary to be intentive
and answerable to him as their lord. Windsor. [Patent Rolls, 33 Henry III,
m.9].'[4]

Source 4. MichaelAnne Guido, "Re: Magna Carta line of Eufemia (was Eufemia
wife of William Comyn of Kilbride), " 22 October 2004, email ClaudiusI0@aol.com
cites Calendar of Documents pertaining to Scotland preserved in her majestys
public Record office, London edited by Joseph Bain, Vol. I 1108-1272, #2302.
May 19, 1262.

Gjest

Re: Boudica

Legg inn av Gjest » 06 aug 2006 22:10:03

In a message dated 8/6/2006 12:44:39 PM Pacific Standard Time,
paulvheath@gmail.com writes:

"Pea" does not mean mountain; it means "pea" (as in peacock).


When you say "Pea" ...means "pea" do you mean
"a small round green vegetable" ?

Renia

Re: Boudica

Legg inn av Renia » 06 aug 2006 22:30:55

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 8/6/2006 12:44:39 PM Pacific Standard Time,
paulvheath@gmail.com writes:

"Pea" does not mean mountain; it means "pea" (as in peacock).


When you say "Pea" ...means "pea" do you mean
"a small round green vegetable" ?

A peacock is a beatiful male blue bird with exhuberant plumage.

A pea is a small green vegetable.

There is no recent genealogical relationship between the two.

Renia

Re: Boudica

Legg inn av Renia » 07 aug 2006 00:52:31

Leo van de Pas wrote:

----- Original Message ----- From: "Renia" <renia@DELETEotenet.gr
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Monday, August 07, 2006 7:30 AM
Subject: Re: Boudica


WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 8/6/2006 12:44:39 PM Pacific Standard Time,
paulvheath@gmail.com writes:

"Pea" does not mean mountain; it means "pea" (as in peacock).


When you say "Pea" ...means "pea" do you mean
"a small round green vegetable" ?


A peacock is a beatiful male blue bird with exhuberant plumage.

A pea is a small green vegetable.

There is no recent genealogical relationship between the two.

What if the peacock eats the pea, then there is some relationship I
would think :-)

Sometimes it is interesting to use a dictionary. In mine, the Pea and
the Peacock each have their own entry.
Pea - a new singular formed from pease (Pease is there also with same
description)
there is quite a lot with all kinds of peas (plants)
Pea - (separate entry) a pea fowl ec.
Peacock - genus (Pavo) of large birds of the pheasant kind

I cannot find any reference to Peabody. Could it be tall tale told,
later taken literally?
Leo

I don't know. But in Sussex, there is a village called Pease Pottage.
For many years, the roadsigns were spellt Peas Pottage, and some local
wag used to rush out with his paintbrush, and add the extra "e". Now,
the signs all say Pease Pottage, with the "e".

Leo van de Pas

Re: Boudica

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 07 aug 2006 01:27:01

----- Original Message -----
From: "Renia" <renia@DELETEotenet.gr>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, August 07, 2006 7:30 AM
Subject: Re: Boudica


WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 8/6/2006 12:44:39 PM Pacific Standard Time,
paulvheath@gmail.com writes:

"Pea" does not mean mountain; it means "pea" (as in peacock).


When you say "Pea" ...means "pea" do you mean
"a small round green vegetable" ?

A peacock is a beatiful male blue bird with exhuberant plumage.

A pea is a small green vegetable.

There is no recent genealogical relationship between the two.

What if the peacock eats the pea, then there is some relationship I would

think :-)

Sometimes it is interesting to use a dictionary. In mine, the Pea and the
Peacock each have their own entry.
Pea - a new singular formed from pease (Pease is there also with same
description)
there is quite a lot with all kinds of peas (plants)
Pea - (separate entry) a pea fowl ec.
Peacock - genus (Pavo) of large birds of the pheasant kind

I cannot find any reference to Peabody. Could it be tall tale told, later
taken literally?
Leo

Gjest

Re: Boudica

Legg inn av Gjest » 07 aug 2006 03:20:03

Dear Will, Leo, Renia and others,
I believe Peabody is a
relatively recent spelling of the name. In the seventeenth century a more common
form was Pabodie.

Sincerely,

James W Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA

Gjest

Re: Complete Peerage CD

Legg inn av Gjest » 07 aug 2006 23:41:02

It seems possible, although labor intensive to
1) Printscreen each image
2) Load the *picture* into OCR software
3) Create your own text version of the image.

I wonder if someone else doing this, on this CD would violate some copyright ?

Gjest

Re: Gytha of England / Vladimir, Grand Duke of Kiev

Legg inn av Gjest » 08 aug 2006 04:06:04

In a message dated 8/7/06 3:44:09 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
paulvheath@gmail.com writes:

<< After the Battle of Hastings, Edward the Exile's daughter Margaret fled
to Scotland and married Malcolm III, King of Scots. >>

Thank you Paul. Not only did Malcolm marry Margaret, but Malcolm's sister,
also Margaret married Edward. per the writeup at wikipedia.

Will

Todd A. Farmerie

Re: Gytha of England / Vladimir, Grand Duke of Kiev

Legg inn av Todd A. Farmerie » 08 aug 2006 04:15:48

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 8/7/06 3:44:09 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
paulvheath@gmail.com writes:

After the Battle of Hastings, Edward the Exile's daughter Margaret fled
to Scotland and married Malcolm III, King of Scots.

Thank you Paul. Not only did Malcolm marry Margaret, but Malcolm's sister,
also Margaret married Edward. per the writeup at wikipedia.

(Edgar, you mean)

I think this is the result of confusion. I know of no source that
provides any origin for Edgar's wife. (The Manteyer speculation that
made "Queen Matilda" wife of Guigues of Viennois a daughter of Edgar had
his wife a member of the Northumberland kindred.) Likewise, I know of
no evidence for any daughters of Duncan.

It looks like there is a good bit of cleaning up to do. Agatha is
called "Agatha of Bulgaria", either daughter of Yaroslav or niece of
Henry III on Edward's page (which makes one ask, why "of Bulgaria"?).
Then her own page just gives the Bulgarian solution without mentioning
the controversy in the least, and it looks like it has been put together
by someone who didn't understand the language in which the original was
written, giving what I take to have been descriptions (e.g., "a
hungarian princess") as if that was the given name of the individual,
and it calls Agatha a cousin of Stephen, while the description it gives
would make her niece. [How do you even correct a page, the very title of
which assumes one possible answer to a question that is probably
unanswerable?]

taf

Todd A. Farmerie

Re: Gytha of England / Vladimir, Grand Duke of Kiev

Legg inn av Todd A. Farmerie » 08 aug 2006 06:22:23

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
Here is the offending text: ". . . . The next year Malcolm married Edgar's sister
Margaret, and agreed to support Edgar in his attempt to claim the English
crown. In exchange, Edgar married Malcolm's sister, another Margaret.


Yes, but on what basis did the contributor decide this was the case? I
suspect that either directly or indirectly, it results from one of two
occurances - either someone somehow got confused over a statement that
Edgar and Malcolm were brothers-in-law and who married whose sister
Margaret, or that someone simply decided without the basis of evidence
that Edgar must have married Malcolm's sister.

taf

Gjest

Re: Gytha of England / Vladimir, Grand Duke of Kiev

Legg inn av Gjest » 08 aug 2006 06:46:02

Here is the offending text: "William treated Edgar well. Seeing political
advantage, he kept him in his custody and eventually took him back to his court
in _Normandy_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normandy) . However, Edgar
joined in the rebellion of the earls Edwin and Morcar in 1068 and, though
defeated, he fled to the court of _Malcolm III of Scotland_
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malcolm_III_of_Scotland) . The next year Malcolm married Edgar's sister
Margaret, and agreed to support Edgar in his attempt to claim the English
crown. In exchange, Edgar married Malcolm's sister, another Margaret. Edgar now
made common cause with _Sweyn Estridson_
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweyn_Estridson) , the king of _Denmark_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denmark) and
nephew of Canute, who believed he was the rightful king of England."
_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgar_Atheling_
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgar_Atheling)

Leo van de Pas

Re: Gytha of England / Vladimir, Grand Duke of Kiev

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 08 aug 2006 07:51:02

Dear Will,

Wicked-pedia gives Malcolm III a sister Margaret?

Burke's Guide to the Royal Family, page 313
King Duncan I The Gracious is given only three sons,
Malcolm III, Donald III Bane and Melmare

ES (Freytag von Loringhoven) Volume II Tafel 67
King Duncan I has only three sons Malcolm III, Donald III and Melmare

ES (Schwennicke) Volume II Tafel 89
King Duncan I has only three sons Malcom III, Donald III and Melmare

Lines of Succession, Jiri Louda
only records Malcolm III and Donald Bane

Have you found any other sources for this Margaret?
Leo


----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 2:43 PM
Subject: Re: Gytha of England / Vladimir, Grand Duke of Kiev


Here is the offending text: "William treated Edgar well. Seeing political
advantage, he kept him in his custody and eventually took him back to his
court
in _Normandy_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normandy) . However, Edgar
joined in the rebellion of the earls Edwin and Morcar in 1068 and, though
defeated, he fled to the court of _Malcolm III of Scotland_
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malcolm_III_of_Scotland) . The next year
Malcolm married Edgar's sister
Margaret, and agreed to support Edgar in his attempt to claim the English
crown. In exchange, Edgar married Malcolm's sister, another Margaret.
Edgar now
made common cause with _Sweyn Estridson_
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweyn_Estridson) , the king of _Denmark_
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denmark) and
nephew of Canute, who believed he was the rightful king of England."
_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgar_Atheling_
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgar_Atheling)


Peter MEAZEY

Re: Peacocks

Legg inn av Peter MEAZEY » 08 aug 2006 09:55:03

"Keane is pronounced "keen" to rhyme with "been" or "bean".
Kayne is pronounce "cane" to rhyme with "pain".
Keane was and is an Irish gentry surname. The pronounciation of Cane (or
Kayne) has a much wider genealogical base."

Sorry, this is just wrong. Many Irish people would pronounce Keane to
rhyme with pain - as they would drink "tay" or even, in the work of Sean
O'Casey, talk of Juno and the Paycock (his spelling).
This use of "ea" pronounced "ay" is not confined to Ireland. My own
family go back to late medieval Oxfordshire (more recently Glamorgan)
and have always been a pronounced "pain".
HTH
Peter Meazey

Renia

Re: Peacocks

Legg inn av Renia » 08 aug 2006 13:24:09

Peter MEAZEY wrote:

"Keane is pronounced "keen" to rhyme with "been" or "bean".
Kayne is pronounce "cane" to rhyme with "pain".
Keane was and is an Irish gentry surname. The pronounciation of Cane (or
Kayne) has a much wider genealogical base."

Sorry, this is just wrong. Many Irish people would pronounce Keane to
rhyme with pain - as they would drink "tay" or even, in the work of Sean
O'Casey, talk of Juno and the Paycock (his spelling).
This use of "ea" pronounced "ay" is not confined to Ireland. My own
family go back to late medieval Oxfordshire (more recently Glamorgan)
and have always been a pronounced "pain".
HTH
Peter Meazey

Thanks for this. To some extent, I think you are right. But I referred
to Keane as an Irish gentry surname, and one spoken without dialect.

Ken Ozanne

Re: GEN-MEDIEVAL-D Digest V06 #638

Legg inn av Ken Ozanne » 08 aug 2006 13:41:02

Marilyn,
The CD is not searchable. The books are, of course, in alphabetical
order.

Best,
Ken

On 8/8/2006 07:32, "GEN-MEDIEVAL-D-request@rootsweb.com"
<GEN-MEDIEVAL-D-request@rootsweb.com> wrote:

From: Symonds <sysite@swbell.net
Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 13:56:53 -0500
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Complete Peerage CD

This CD arrived today, and using Adobe Acrobat Reader 7, I have been
unable to search the disk - using the Edit-Find method and/or the
binoculars button on the Adobe Reader menu bar. I have run a dozen
searches which produced nothing. I also did test searches for names that
I already know are on the CD: e.g. "Deincourt" on Volume VI.

Apparently this CD is either "different" from all the other PDF CD's or
it is damaged. Can anyone advise me as to whether there is another
method of searching?

Marilyn Symonds

Gjest

Re: Complete Peerage CD

Legg inn av Gjest » 08 aug 2006 14:35:03

Really, I don't think you have much to complain about. A few years ago a
complete set of an original 2nd edition would cost you thousands of pounds, my
set was £2,300, and your only search facilities are your own eyes.

You may find you can convert it to recognisable text by using an OCR program
such as OmniPage, which, depending on your PC's memory, can deal with 100
pages or so at a time. I have just about finished doing this for a work which
is just under 5,000 pages (I think CP is around 11,000) even though this
Adobe file was described as un-copiable, although it was not an entirely trouble
free process. (This may well be in breach of copyright, but if it is only
for your own use, I doubt there is a problem)

Adrian

In a message dated 08/08/2006 13:03:14 GMT Standard Time, sysite@swbell.net
writes:

I have had an answer from Graham Senior-Milne regarding my request for a
refund : Denied. His allegation is that there have been only two
complaints on this point in "recent years". Oh well...sometimes the
tutorial is worth more than the product itself. I think I will give it
to the genealogical library here. Although with a user time limit on
each of their computers, I don't know if they will even be interested in
accepting it.

Marilyn

Todd A. Farmerie

Re: Russian ancestors of early modern English nobility

Legg inn av Todd A. Farmerie » 08 aug 2006 16:32:39

[piggybacking, since I missed the original]

Peter Stewart wrote:
""Marc Archer"" <marcher51@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:037c01c6b756$7770f600$bd90fea9@Phama...

Being quite a novice at medieval genealogy, and noticing how venomous
some responders can be, I'm reluctant to ask this, but please keep in mind
my ignorance.
This recent post abt. Russian ancestors of early modern English
nobility, reminded me of hearing that Agath of Hungary was descended from
a Kiev family. Has this been disproven, or remains to be proven?


I hope you will be encouraged by the response to ask whatever questions you
wish as these occur to you. Marc.

Regarding Marc's questions, the answers are no, and yes, in that order.
It has not been disproven, but it remains to be proven, and likely
will remain unproven for the forseeable future.

The problem is that there are no contemporary documents which preserve
record of her origin, and later sources are either ambiguous or
contradictory, sometimes both. (In fact, the conflict among chroniclers
leads one to wonder if any of them had any idea, rather than just
reporting whatever was ginned up by the rumor mill.) This has led to a
range of speculation, the Russian origin being only one of the suggested
possibilities, along with German, Hungarian and Bulgarian. It has in
its favor certain aspects of the known history of her husband's
migrations and political milieu, as well as support from the latest of
the chroniclers to address the question. Likewise, we at least know
that Yaroslav, her hypothesized father, had daughters, information
lacking for the other prospective placements. There are also a range of
less persuasive arguments. On the negative side, it contradicts all of
the other earlier chronicler accounts that mention her origin. Without
the discovery of a novel documentary source, we are left (in my view)
without sufficient late and/or circumstancial evidence to allow any one
argument to be prefered over the alternatives.

taf

Douglas Richardson

Re: Russian ancestors of early modern English nobility

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 08 aug 2006 18:50:19

Todd A. Farmerie wrote:
Likewise, we at least know
that Yaroslav, her hypothesized father, had daughters, information
lacking for the other prospective placements. There are also a range of
less persuasive arguments. On the negative side, it contradicts all of
the other earlier chronicler accounts that mention her origin. Without
the discovery of a novel documentary source, we are left (in my view)
without sufficient late and/or circumstancial evidence to allow any one
argument to be prefered over the alternatives.

taf

The fact that Yaroslav had unidentified daughters is hardly a
"persuavive" argument that one of them might have been Agatha, the
kinswoman of Emperor Henry. Neither Yaroslav nor his wife, Anna, had
any kinship to Emperor Henry.

dr

Todd A. Farmerie

Re: Russian ancestors of early modern English nobility

Legg inn av Todd A. Farmerie » 08 aug 2006 20:42:05

Douglas Richardson wrote:
Todd A. Farmerie wrote:
Likewise, we at least know

that Yaroslav, her hypothesized father, had daughters, information
lacking for the other prospective placements. There are also a range of
less persuasive arguments. On the negative side, it contradicts all of
the other earlier chronicler accounts that mention her origin. Without
the discovery of a novel documentary source, we are left (in my view)
without sufficient late and/or circumstancial evidence to allow any one
argument to be prefered over the alternatives.

The fact that Yaroslav had unidentified daughters is hardly a
"persuavive" argument that one of them might have been Agatha,

Of course not, and I never said it was. (Here is a hint - "less
persuasive" is a relative term. It only indicates that the other
arguments are poorer than the one to which they are being compared.)

the
kinswoman of Emperor Henry. Neither Yaroslav nor his wife, Anna, had
any kinship to Emperor Henry.

Calling her the "kinswoman of Emperor Henry" begs the question. The
whole problem is that surviving sources, none of them contemporary,
place her in different kindreds, and the various testimony cannot be
harmonized. She is called kinswoman of Emperor Henry by some sources,
of the King of Hungary by some, and daughter of the ruler of Russia by
another. You can't just pick one of these arbitrarily and require that
all solutions must conform to this one out of many incompatible
relationships.

taf

Gjest

Re: Gytha of England / Vladimir, Grand Duke of Kiev

Legg inn av Gjest » 08 aug 2006 21:46:03

In a message dated 8/7/06 8:28:48 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
farmerie@interfold.com writes:

<< [How do you even correct a page, the very title of
which assumes one possible answer to a question that is probably
unanswerable?] >>

[Speaking of editing wikipedia pages] Well what I would do, were I to do it,
which I don't feel qualified to, would be to state it in some fashion like
this (which is only an EXAMPLE of how to cite a ref, this REF does not exist,
I'm making it up for the purposes of this example): "her origin is unknown, one
speculation states she was daughter of Vladimir of Kiev<ref>"On Agatha", Peter
Smith, Historia p 12</ref> but no primary document supports this.

And then also on the associated TALK page (every article has a talk page),
you can put more details on the various speculations.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Gytha of England / Vladimir, Grand Duke of Kiev

Legg inn av Gjest » 08 aug 2006 21:51:02

I've flagged the entry with a {{fact}} tag which makes the text "citation
needed" appear as a superscript in the display. Then on the TALK page I've put a
note saying that I'm going to remove this tidbit unless someone can cite a
source.

That's a polite way of noting that something is off. Then I usually wait a
week and then delete the offending pseudo-fact :)

Will

Douglas Richardson

A fatally flawed premise

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 08 aug 2006 22:00:18

Todd A. Farmerie wrote:
You can't just pick one of these arbitrarily and require that
< all solutions must conform to this one out of many incompatible
< relationships.
<
< taf

I doubt any of the proposed solutions entirely "conforms" to the
records which have survived. You saying Jaroslav had an available
daughter, so you're "persuaded" she must be Agatha seems like wishful
thinking to me. As you are well aware, this solution completely
sidesteps the issue of Agatha's kinship to Emperor Henry.

dr

Todd A. Farmerie

Re: Gytha of England / Vladimir, Grand Duke of Kiev

Legg inn av Todd A. Farmerie » 08 aug 2006 22:19:55

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 8/7/06 8:28:48 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
farmerie@interfold.com writes:

[How do you even correct a page, the very title of
which assumes one possible answer to a question that is probably
unanswerable?]

[Speaking of editing wikipedia pages] Well what I would do, were I to do it,
which I don't feel qualified to, would be to state it in some fashion like
this (which is only an EXAMPLE of how to cite a ref, this REF does not exist,
I'm making it up for the purposes of this example): "her origin is unknown, one
speculation states she was daughter of Vladimir of Kiev<ref>"On Agatha", Peter
Smith, Historia p 12</ref> but no primary document supports this.

I really wasn't asking about laying it out the pro and con arguments in
the article, which is simple enough. My question was more along the
lines of what to do with a page called "Agatha of Bulgaria" for a woman
who may instead be Agatha of Hungary or Agatha of Russia, or more
accurately Agatha of Who Knows Where. Just editing the content really
doesn't fully address the problem.

taf

Todd A. Farmerie

Re: A fatally flawed premise

Legg inn av Todd A. Farmerie » 08 aug 2006 23:14:23

Douglas Richardson wrote:
Todd A. Farmerie wrote:
You can't just pick one of these arbitrarily and require that
all solutions must conform to this one out of many incompatible
relationships.

taf

I doubt any of the proposed solutions entirely "conforms" to the
records which have survived. You saying Jaroslav had an available
daughter, so you're "persuaded" she must be Agatha seems like wishful
thinking to me.

And just where did I say this? You either have no shame or no reading
skills. I never said I was "persuaded" (in quotes, as if I actually
used the word) by any of it, NEVER! so quit putting words in my mouth.
I summarized the argument, highlighting both points that have been given
in its favor and where it fails. That somehow makes me persuaded? or
maybe it was when I said that we are left without sufficient data to
enable any conclusion to be drawn that made you think I was "persuaded"?
If you want to play these silly little games of yours, do it with
someone else - I'm not in the mood.

As you are well aware, this solution completely
sidesteps the issue of Agatha's kinship to Emperor Henry.

Perhaps you were too obtuse to twig to the meaning of my sentence, "On
the negative side, it contradicts all of the other earlier chronicler
accounts that mention her origin." In other words I am not only well
aware of it - I specifically made reference to it. Anyhow, this is also
a little white lie of yours. The Yaroslav solution does not sidestep
the Imperial relationship. It addresses it, then dismisses it, plain
and simple. "As you are well aware," every suggested solution MUST
dismiss (or simply ignore) at least one of the stated relationships,
because there is no single solution that allows all of them to be true.
There is nothing special about the Imperial relationship that requires
its fulfillment, while the other contradictory relationships are simply
optional - every one of the suggested solutions sidesteps one or another
relationship. Thus, the failure of this solution or that one to match
this stated relationship or that has no power of distinction - they all
fail the test. By this criterion, ALL SOLUTIONS ARE AS FATALLY FLAWED!

taf

Gjest

Re: Gytha of England / Vladimir, Grand Duke of Kiev

Legg inn av Gjest » 08 aug 2006 23:41:02

In a message dated 8/8/06 2:29:05 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
farmerie@interfold.com writes:

<< My question was more along the
lines of what to do with a page called "Agatha of Bulgaria" for a woman
who may instead be Agatha of Hungary or Agatha of Russia, or more
accurately Agatha of Who Knows Where. Just editing the content really
doesn't fully address the problem. >>

Todd you can also change the title of the page.
That is the MOVE button.
Once you click MOVE, it will show you the current name and then ask for a new
name and a reason.
So you can rename the page to "Agatha wife of Superman" and for reason say
"Cuz I say so" (Of course I'm sure you wouldn't do it exactly that way.)

When you use MOVE, it moves the Talk, and the History, and creates a redirect
link so that pages linked TO this page don't become orphans, i.e. the links
will also follow you to the new page name automatically.


Will

Douglas Richardson

The simple truth

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 08 aug 2006 23:49:17

Dear taf ~

Truth: Yaroslav had no known daughter named Agatha.

Truth: The oldest sources state that Agatha was kinswoman to the Holy
Roman Emperor.

Truth: Neither Yaroslav nor his wife Anna have any known blood tie to
the imperial family.

Conclusion: Yaroslav can not have been Agatha's father.

dr

Gjest

Re: Russian ancestors of early modern English nobility

Legg inn av Gjest » 08 aug 2006 23:51:03

In a message dated 8/5/06 10:39:42 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Jwc1870@aol.com
writes:

<< Wladyslaw II, breifly King of Poland d 1159 married Agnes, daughter
of Leopold III, Duke of Austria by Agnes of Germany, daughter of Emperor
Henry
IV. >>

That's funny, "Heraldry of the Royal Families of Europe", Jiri Louda and
Michael Maclagan. .Clarkson N Potter, New York 1981 has this person on at least
two tables 77 and 132

On 77 they are only noting him as the father of someone else they are
interested in, but there they call him "Duke of Poland d 1159". On Table 132, where
they give his parents Boleslaw III, Duke of Poland in 1102 d 1138 and Ebyslawa
d 1108 dau of Svatolpolk GrandDuke of Kiev (married 1103) they do NOT call
him Duke of Poland, but rather Duke of Cracow and Silesia 1138-46.

It's interesting that his Dukedom ends in 1146 but he lives until 1159. His
half-brother Mieszko III is called Duke of Gt Poland 1138 so I suppose that
there must have been some kind of power struggle when Boleslaw III died in 1138
as to which son would success him.

Gjest

Re: Gytha of England / Vladimir, Grand Duke of Kiev

Legg inn av Gjest » 09 aug 2006 00:31:30

"Leo van de Pas" wrote:
Dear Will,

Wicked-pedia gives Malcolm III a sister Margaret?

Wikipedia should never be used as a source.

There is no possibility that Malcolm III had a sister called Margaret
as that name was introduced to Britain by his wife. She was, of course,
born in Hungary, where her father was exiled, and the name either came
from her mother's family, or (more probably) merely happened to be in
fashion in Hungary at the time of her birth. The Christian name
commemorates an entirely fictitious Saint Margaret, whose adventures
are akin to Pearl White's serial The Perils of Pauline. Among other
stunts, Saint Margaret supposedly survived being eaten by Satan.

Gjest

Re: Gytha of England / Vladimir, Grand Duke of Kiev

Legg inn av Gjest » 09 aug 2006 01:00:04

Dear Will, Todd, Peter, Leo, Douglas and others,

Looking at Leo`s Genealogics page for St Henry II, Holy Roman Emperor who married
Kunigunde of Luxembourg, daughter of Count Siegfried of Luxemburg, it is
interesting how little of his pedigree is known. He had a brother Bruno, Bishop of
Augsburg and two sisters Gisela, wife of St Stephen I , King of Hungary and a
2nd sister Brigette of Germany, Their Parents were Henry II, Duke of Bavaria
and Gisela of Burgundy, daughter of King Conrad I of Burgundy and his 2nd wife
Adelaide of Bellay (see wikipedia for this identification)
I goofed again in naming the parents of certain Russian children
Dobronega Maria , according to Leo belongs to Vladimir I of Kief and his wife , A
daughter of Conrad von Oenningen whom He married after Anna of Byzantium`s
death. Yaroslav I was Vladimir`s son by a previous wife Rogneda of Polock and by
his wife Ingegerd, Daughter of Olaf Skotkonung, King of Sweden by Estrid of the
Oborites He had at least 8 children, 5 sons, Vladimir, Vsvelod I, Isiaslav I
, Sviatoslav I and Igor and 3 daughters Anastasia m Andrew I, King of Hungary,
Elizabeth m Harald III, King of Norway and Anna m Henry I, King of France.
Anastasia and Igor each had a son named David just as Agatha had a grandson of
that name, but given 1 the popularity of the bibical story and 2 the possibly
of kind of getting in the mighty normans` faces by giving his son the name of
a heroic conqueror could have appealed to King Malcolm III and the same idea
with Alexander. rather ironic if it were all just that simple.
Sincerely,
James William Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

Todd A. Farmerie

Re: The (not so) simple (not really the) truth

Legg inn av Todd A. Farmerie » 09 aug 2006 01:53:22

Douglas Richardson wrote:
Dear taf ~

Truth: Yaroslav had no known daughter named Agatha.

Truth: None of the identified candidates for Agatha's parents had a
known daughter named Agatha. Thus this criterion has no power of
distinction among the possibilities. Furthermore, to use this "Truth"
to support your "Conclusion" is to follow one of the more common logical
fallacies - that of equating absence of evidence with evidence of
absence. It in no way contributes to your (invalid) conclusion.

Truth: The oldest sources state that Agatha was kinswoman to the Holy
Roman Emperor.

Truth: the oldest source, when it is still far from contemporary, cannot
automatically be presumed to be accurate. This is particularly the case
when there are other sources nearly as old that give differing
information. In fact, such ranging conflict is sometimes an indication
that they are all guessing: that they may (gasp) all be wrong.

Truth: Neither Yaroslav nor his wife Anna have any known blood tie to
the imperial family.

Truth: Ludolph of West Friesland has no known relationship to King
Stephen of Hungary.

Truth: Gavril of Bulgaria has no known relationship to the Ruler of Kiev.

etc. etc. etc. Each of the proposed solutions fails at least one of the
relational statements used by the non-contemporary chroniclers. Again,
no power of distinction here. (It is like looking at a townhouse and a
condo and saying you don't like the condo because it has no lawn, when
neither does the townhouse.)

Conclusion: Yaroslav can not have been Agatha's father.

Conclusion: When one bases one's conclusion on flawed premises, the
conclusion is flawed. Had you concluded: "IF the oldest source has
accurately stated Agatha's relationship to the Emperor, then Yaroslav
cannot have been Agatha's father", then you would have reached a
perfectly accurate conclusion. But no, just like some royal descents,
such conclusions look a lot prettier if you leave out the important
qualifications necessary to honestly summarize the situation.

taf

Gjest

Re: Gytha of England / Vladimir, Grand Duke of Kiev

Legg inn av Gjest » 09 aug 2006 02:00:03

In a message dated 8/8/06 3:57:46 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Jwc1870@aol.com
writes:

<< Yaroslav I was Vladimir`s son by a previous wife Rogneda of Polock and by
his wife Ingegerd, Daughter of Olaf Skotkonung, King of Sweden by Estrid of
the
Oborites >>

Thank you for the interesting connections. Can this Estrid of the Oborites
be connected with Mitsui or Mieceslas, both called "of the Oborites" as well,
and possibly of the right generation to be her father and brother, or father
and grandfather. Not sure.

Will

Nathaniel Taylor

Re: The simple truth

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 09 aug 2006 03:02:46

In article <1155077357.915304.125570@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
"Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com> wrote:

Dear taf ~

Truth: Yaroslav had no known daughter named Agatha.

Truth: The oldest sources state that Agatha was kinswoman to the Holy
Roman Emperor.

Truth: Neither Yaroslav nor his wife Anna have any known blood tie to
the imperial family.

Conclusion: Yaroslav can not have been Agatha's father.

Is this a joke?

If not, allow me, in all seriousness, to suggest Anthony Weston, _A
Rulebook for Arguments_, now in its third edition (Hackett, 2001):
concise, non-condescending, brilliant.

Nat Taylor
http://www.nltaylor.net

pj.evans

Re: Russian ancestors of early modern English nobility

Legg inn av pj.evans » 09 aug 2006 03:38:07

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 8/5/06 10:39:42 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Jwc1870@aol.com
writes:

Wladyslaw II, breifly King of Poland d 1159 married Agnes, daughter
of Leopold III, Duke of Austria by Agnes of Germany, daughter of Emperor
Henry
IV.

That's funny, "Heraldry of the Royal Families of Europe", Jiri Louda and
Michael Maclagan. .Clarkson N Potter, New York 1981 has this person on at least
two tables 77 and 132

On 77 they are only noting him as the father of someone else they are
interested in, but there they call him "Duke of Poland d 1159". On Table 132, where
they give his parents Boleslaw III, Duke of Poland in 1102 d 1138 and Ebyslawa
d 1108 dau of Svatolpolk GrandDuke of Kiev (married 1103) they do NOT call
him Duke of Poland, but rather Duke of Cracow and Silesia 1138-46.

It's interesting that his Dukedom ends in 1146 but he lives until 1159. His
half-brother Mieszko III is called Duke of Gt Poland 1138 so I suppose that
there must have been some kind of power struggle when Boleslaw III died in 1138
as to which son would success him.

Moriarty (p84) has both 'king of Poland' and 'lord of Cracow and
Silesia' attached to this man. IIRC, the kingship sometimes went from
eldest son to the next son, and so on, so it's possible he was both. (I
Am Not An Expert, I just have a library and a memory.)

P J Evans

Peter Stewart

Re: Russian ancestors of early modern English nobility

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 09 aug 2006 07:12:51

pj.evans wrote:
WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 8/5/06 10:39:42 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Jwc1870@aol.com
writes:

Wladyslaw II, breifly King of Poland d 1159 married Agnes, daughter
of Leopold III, Duke of Austria by Agnes of Germany, daughter of Emperor
Henry
IV.

That's funny, "Heraldry of the Royal Families of Europe", Jiri Louda and
Michael Maclagan. .Clarkson N Potter, New York 1981 has this person on at least
two tables 77 and 132

On 77 they are only noting him as the father of someone else they are
interested in, but there they call him "Duke of Poland d 1159". On Table 132, where
they give his parents Boleslaw III, Duke of Poland in 1102 d 1138 and Ebyslawa
d 1108 dau of Svatolpolk GrandDuke of Kiev (married 1103) they do NOT call
him Duke of Poland, but rather Duke of Cracow and Silesia 1138-46.

It's interesting that his Dukedom ends in 1146 but he lives until 1159. His
half-brother Mieszko III is called Duke of Gt Poland 1138 so I suppose that
there must have been some kind of power struggle when Boleslaw III died in 1138
as to which son would success him.

Moriarty (p84) has both 'king of Poland' and 'lord of Cracow and
Silesia' attached to this man. IIRC, the kingship sometimes went from
eldest son to the next son, and so on, so it's possible he was both. (I
Am Not An Expert, I just have a library and a memory.)

He is known as Wladyslaw II the Exile, because that is what happened to
him. he was not a king. From his generation the rulership in Poland
becomes known as the Seniorate, with the title duke of (Great) Poland
passing in general to the next-most senior member of the dynasty.

In 1146 Wladyslaw II was succeeded in Cracow by his brother Boleslaw
IV, of Masovia, who in turn was succeeded at his death in April 1173 by
their younger brother Mieszko III the Old, whose reign in Cracow was
interrupted twice - as noted above, he had been recognised as duke of
Great Poland from 1138.

The passage of titles and aggregation/separation of territories are
very complicated in this family - by no means can an eldest son be
expected to follow his father in simple succession by primogeniture.

Peter Stewart

Rosie Bevan

Re: Sir Robert Peverel of Ashby Castle

Legg inn av Rosie Bevan » 10 aug 2006 00:07:57

Yes. CP II p.1.

I believe this identification is a CP addition.

Rosie


WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 8/9/06 12:44:15 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
rbevan@paradise.net.nz writes:

When Ralph Basset, the elder, died in 1341

Is this Ralph the same person as "Sir Ralph Basset of Great Weldon" born 27
Aug 1300 son of Richard, 1st Baron Basset by his wife Joan de Huntingfield?

Rosie Bevan

Re: Sir Robert Peverel of Ashby Castle

Legg inn av Rosie Bevan » 10 aug 2006 00:11:56

Sorry - that should be page 11, not 1

R

Rosie Bevan wrote:
Yes. CP II p.1.

I believe this identification is a CP addition.

Rosie


WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 8/9/06 12:44:15 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
rbevan@paradise.net.nz writes:

When Ralph Basset, the elder, died in 1341

Is this Ralph the same person as "Sir Ralph Basset of Great Weldon" born 27
Aug 1300 son of Richard, 1st Baron Basset by his wife Joan de Huntingfield?

Gjest

Re: Russian ancestors of early modern English nobility

Legg inn av Gjest » 10 aug 2006 01:00:03

In a message dated 8/8/06 11:14:35 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
p_m_stewart@msn.com writes:

<< He is known as Wladyslaw II the Exile, because that is what happened to
him. he was not a king. From his generation the rulership in Poland
becomes known as the Seniorate, with the title duke of (Great) Poland
passing in general to the next-most senior member of the dynasty. >>

Thank you Peter for your informative reply.
Here is how my source presents the rulership of Poland

Casimir I Duke of Poland 1039 (d 1058)
Boleslaw II Duke of Poland 1058 King of Poland 1076-9 (d 1081)
Wladislaw I Duke of Poland 1080 (d 1102)
Boleslaw III Duke of Poland 1102 (d 1138)
Mieszko III Duke of Gt Poland 1138 (d 1202)
there follows some kind of interruption until
Wladislaw Odonic Duke of Gt Poland 1229 (d 1239)
Przemyslaw I Duke of Gt Poland 1250 (d 1257)
Boleslaw Duke of Gt Poland 1257 (d 1279)
Przemyslaw II Duke of Gt Poland 1279 King of Poland 1295 (d 1296)

From that point each ruler appears to be called King of Poland

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Sir Robert Peverel of Ashby Castle

Legg inn av Gjest » 10 aug 2006 01:05:04

In a message dated 8/9/06 12:44:15 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
rbevan@paradise.net.nz writes:

<< When Ralph Basset, the elder, died in 1341 >>

Is this Ralph the same person as "Sir Ralph Basset of Great Weldon" born 27
Aug 1300 son of Richard, 1st Baron Basset by his wife Joan de Huntingfield?

John Brandon

Re: Marriage settlement of Henry Whitfield--Dorothy Sheafe

Legg inn av John Brandon » 10 aug 2006 23:06:03

Probably Rev. Henry Whitfield's intended first wife (Margaret Hardware)
....

http://books.google.com/books?vid=0COBg ... ild&pgis=1



Peter Stewart

Re: Hildegard of Flanders Re: Louis VI to Charlemagne Fw: Ca

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 10 aug 2006 23:53:25

<WJhonson@aol.com> wrote in message news:bc0.29e94a9.320d0d24@aol.com...
I just want to make sure I'm understanding Peter's position correctly.

Is it that Hildegarde's parentage is unknown ?
Or is it that Hildegarde was of the Flanders nobility but not sure how?

Hildegard's parentage is not stated in any contemporary source. On onomastic
grounds, because two of her sons were given the names Arnulf and Egbert, it
is thought that she may have been a daughter of Count Arnulf I of Flanders,
and this has been bolstered by the interpretation of other evidence that is
equally uncertain.

On the basis that an account of her son as archbishop of Trier describes his
ancestry as British and noble rather than royal, I would suggest that
Countess Hildegard of West Friesland was quite possibly an Anglo-Saxon girl
from a noble family who was brought up by the widowed Countess Elftrude in
Flanders in the 920s, married to Dirk II by ca 940, and that maybe she gave
the names Arnulf and Egbert to her sons out of gratitude & affection for her
foster family, and/or to honour the heirs of her husband's overlord, not
necessarily from a blood link.

Some scholars have tended to make far too much of names as distincly
genealogical rather than more broadly social indicators.

By the way, in my earlier post I meant that the age required for
consummating marriage was 14 for females and 15 for males - marriage could
be contracted at 12 for females and 14 for males, but the sacrament was to
be perfected later. Over time this boundary was pushed, to synchronise with
the ability of girls to enter religious life (as brides of Christ) at 12.

Peter Stewart

Gjest

Re: Hildegard of Flanders Re: Louis VI to Charlemagne Fw: Ca

Legg inn av Gjest » 11 aug 2006 00:20:03

In a message dated 8/9/06 10:13:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
sbaldw@mindspring.com writes:

<< To my knowledge, the only argument that has been given for requiring
an early birth for Hildegarde is that her son Egbert became archbishop
of Treves in 977, so that he would have had to be born by 947 if he
had already attained the canonical age of thirty. >>


This has been a very interesting thread so far.
I just want to point out that if Egbert were a younger son, he couldn't have
been born much earlier than about 951.
I have a hard time believing that Dirk "consummated" his marriage with a girl
of 11 years old, much less that she could have given birth at that age. The
two remaining choices, would be that Egbert indeed became archbishop at an age
of perhaps 25, or that Hildegarde was a daughter of some previous marriage of
Arnulf which was for some reason unrecorded. Perhaps neither choice is very
palatable.

Is it known whether Egbert was younger than Arnulf d 993 ?

Will

Gjest

Re: Hildegard of Flanders Re: Louis VI to Charlemagne Fw: Ca

Legg inn av Gjest » 11 aug 2006 00:30:03

I just want to make sure I'm understanding Peter's position correctly.

Is it that Hildegarde's parentage is unknown ?
Or is it that Hildegarde was of the Flanders nobility but not sure how?

Thanks
Will

Leo van de Pas

Re: Hildegard of Flanders Re: Louis VI to Charlemagne Fw: Ca

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 11 aug 2006 00:46:01

See at the bottom

----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, August 11, 2006 8:15 AM
Subject: Re: Hildegard of Flanders Re: Louis VI to Charlemagne Fw: Capetien
from Charl...


In a message dated 8/9/06 10:13:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
sbaldw@mindspring.com writes:

To my knowledge, the only argument that has been given for requiring
an early birth for Hildegarde is that her son Egbert became archbishop
of Treves in 977, so that he would have had to be born by 947 if he
had already attained the canonical age of thirty.


This has been a very interesting thread so far.
I just want to point out that if Egbert were a younger son, he couldn't
have
been born much earlier than about 951.
I have a hard time believing that Dirk "consummated" his marriage with a
girl
of 11 years old, much less that she could have given birth at that age.
The
two remaining choices, would be that Egbert indeed became archbishop at an
age
of perhaps 25, or that Hildegarde was a daughter of some previous marriage
of
Arnulf which was for some reason unrecorded. Perhaps neither choice is
very
palatable.

Is it known whether Egbert was younger than Arnulf d 993 ?

Will

Dr. AWE Dek, in his book on the Counts of Holland, page 11.


In this whole segment of the family, not one year of birth is given nor any
estimates, but it shows that Dirk II was father of
1.Arnulf, born in Gent in an unknown year, killed in battle 18 Sept. 993
2.Egbert, mentioned 2 October 974, became chancellor of Emperor Otto II in
976, and in 977 Archbishop of Trier, he died 9 December 993 or 994
3.Arlindis

ES Freytag edition Volume II tafel 4
1.Arnulf , here he is murdered 18 September 993
2.Egbert died 0 December 994, Archbishop of Trier 977
3.Herkelinde, Abbess of Egmont and Bennebroek

ES Schwennicke Volume II tafel 2
1.Arnulf, this time killed in battle 18 September 993
2.Egbert, died 8/9 December 993, Chancellor, Archbishop of Trier 977
3.Herlinde Abbess of Egmont, then of Bennebroek

Hope this helps?
With best wishes,
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

Gjest

Re: Hildegard of Flanders Re: Louis VI to Charlemagne Fw: Ca

Legg inn av Gjest » 11 aug 2006 01:46:02

Thanks Peter for your helpful reply. That does make sense.
Will

Gjest

Re: Parentage of Maud Percy, Dame Ryther [Long]

Legg inn av Gjest » 12 aug 2006 04:48:40

Brad, what a great piece of work you've done. I have just finished going
through it and matching it up to what I had on these families (which wasn't much).

I anticipated your argument slightly, once I saw the chronologic difficulty
in making Maud fit into the Percy family in any other way than the way you have
done.

The way you bypassed the argument against Maud, by making her fit into the
period between Bosworth and Henry Percy's murder was simply amazing.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Some random thoughts on the July issue of the NEHGR

Legg inn av Gjest » 12 aug 2006 08:25:51

I know that the parentage given for William Chittenden in Flagg's
Founding of
New England is wrong.
The correct ancestry was found by Charles Banks about 80 years ago,
but it apparently was never widely known.

Leslie


John Brandon wrote:
I thought the article by Martha Lynes on the "Ancestry of William1
Chittenden of Guilford, Connecticut" was quite good, but would have
liked to have seen at least a mention of the Plymouth Colony Chittenden
family (my ancestors)--even if it was only a note stating that they
could not be placed among the Chittendens being treated. See

http://books.google.com/books?vid=LCCN0 ... en+rebecca

As Thomas1 Chittenden of Scituate had a wife Rebecca, it's evident he
must be the Thomas who married Rebecca Bamfort at Wouldham, Kent, 8
Aug. 1621 (from the extracted IGI). So the Scituate family was also
from Kent; perhaps they weren't mentioned because Wouldham is quite
distant from Hawkhurst (?).

Gjest

Re: Some random thoughts on the July issue of the NEHGR

Legg inn av Gjest » 12 aug 2006 22:31:02

Dear John,
Patricia Law Hatcher`s Edmund and Millicent ( ) Marshall
article of of especial interest to me as I appear to descend from James and
Sarah (Marshall) Colman through either Samuel or James Colman Jr. each appear
to have fathered a James Colman. One of them married Rachel Andrews and had
grandchildren who settled in Maine.
Sincerely,

James W Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA

D. Spencer Hines

Carey Descents From Henry VIII?

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 14 aug 2006 01:06:24

Hilarious!

The next thing we know, Stockdill will be claiming descent from Henry VIII
himself.

"Quinten"?

Or Quentin?

DSH

""Roy Stockdill"" <roy.stockdill@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:44DFCB02.9738.2F13AC8@localhost...

From: "Brian Austin" <Brian.Austin@btinternet.com

Er, no. He was refused a papal dispensation to divorce Catherine of
Aragon in order to marry Anne. In fact he had received a papal
dispensation to marry Catherine in the first place despite the fact
that she had been married, albeit briefly, to his brother Arthur and
thus had been "one flesh". When Arthur died suddenly, it was stated
that the marriage had not been consummated and that Henry was free to
marry her. In his recent book "Six Wives", David Starkey suggests that
consummation did take place.

I think you will also find there was another problem in that Henry VIII
had
had a previous relationship with Mary Boleyn, Anne's elder sister, and
that there were supposedly two children of that union who were given
the surname CAREY. This has been well documented, though whether
Henry's paternity has ever been definitely proved I could not say.

One of the alleged descendants of that union is a chap called Guy de la
Bedoyere, a fairly well known TV historian, who wrote an article about it
in a genealogical magazine quite recently. Oddly enough, his father
Quinten [sic] once sold me an insurance policy!

Roy Stockdill
Guild of One-Name Studies: http://www.one-name.org
Newbies' Guide to Genealogy & Family History:
http://www.genuki.org.uk/gs/Newbie.html

"There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about,
and that is not being talked about."
OSCAR WILDE

Gjest

Re: Publishing Genealogical Details Of Living People

Legg inn av Gjest » 14 aug 2006 07:25:03

I agree with Ian and would go even further personally :)

If I can compile data on someone, from public records, they are fair game.
We have left the days of complete anonymity far behind when you can "Find
anyone in the US for $9.99 !!!" and other such sites.

You leave behind you hundreds of paper trails, some public, some
not-quite-so. If an enterprising person can post my land transactions, my directory
listing, and my divorce papers online, well they have a lot of time on their
hands, but those are public data sources, so I really have nothing to complain
about.

Will Johnson

Ye Old One

Re: Re: Publishing Genealogical Details Of Living People

Legg inn av Ye Old One » 14 aug 2006 09:35:54

On Mon, 14 Aug 2006 05:22:08 +0000 (UTC), WJhonson@aol.com enriched
this group when s/he wrote:

I agree with Ian and would go even further personally :)

If I can compile data on someone, from public records, they are fair game.
We have left the days of complete anonymity far behind when you can "Find
anyone in the US for $9.99 !!!" and other such sites.

You leave behind you hundreds of paper trails, some public, some
not-quite-so. If an enterprising person can post my land transactions, my directory
listing, and my divorce papers online, well they have a lot of time on their
hands, but those are public data sources, so I really have nothing to complain
about.

Will Johnson


As usual, a good post Will.

--
Bob.

D. Spencer Hines

Re: "Star Is Descended From Kings -- Of Course, Most People

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 14 aug 2006 18:51:06

Hilarius Magnus Cum Laude!

As I've been saying for years...

However, for millions of folks, PROVING it is another matter entirely.

DSH
------------------------------------------------------

"Star Is Descended From Kings. Of Course, Most People Are"
"Famous Ancestors Adorn Almost All Family Trees"

By Matt Crenson
Associated Press
Sunday, August 13, 2006

"Actress Brooke Shields has a pretty impressive pedigree -- hanging from her
family tree are Catherine de Medici and Lucrezia Borgia, Charlemagne and El
Cid, William the Conqueror and King Harold II, vanquished by William at the
Battle of Hastings.

Shields also descends from five popes, a whole mess of early New England
settlers, and the royal houses of virtually every European country. She
counts Renaissance pundit Niccolo Machiavelli and conquistador Hernando
Cortes as ancestors.

What is it about Brooke Shields? Well, nothing special -- at least
genealogically.

Even without a documented connection to a notable forebear, experts say, the
odds are virtually 100 percent that every person on Earth is descended from
one royal personage or another.

"Millions of people have provable descents from medieval monarchs," said
Mark Humphrys, a genealogy enthusiast and professor of computer science at
Dublin City University in Ireland. "The number of people with unprovable
descents must be massive."

By the same token, for every king in a person's family tree there are
thousands and thousands of people whose births, lives and deaths went
completely unrecorded by history. We'll never know about them, because until
recently vital records were rare for all but the noble classes.

Which is why it's entertaining to trace the Royal and Noble lines. -- DSH

It works the other way, too. Anybody who had children more than a few
hundred years ago is likely to have millions of descendants today, quite a
few of them famous.

Take King Edward III, who ruled England during the 14th century and had nine
children who survived to adulthood. Among his documented descendants are
presidents (George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, John Quincy Adams, Zachary
Taylor, both Roosevelts), authors (Jane Austen, Lord Byron, Alfred Lord
Tennyson, Elizabeth Barrett Browning), generals (Robert E. Lee), scientists
(Charles Darwin) and actors (Humphrey Bogart, Audrey Hepburn, Brooke
Shields). Some experts estimate that 80 percent of England's present
population descends from Edward III. ******

A slight twist of fate could have prevented the existence of all of them. In
1312, the close adviser -- and probably lover -- of Edward II, Piers
Gaveston, was murdered by a group of barons frustrated with their king's
ineffectual rule. Later that year, the beleaguered king's eldest son, Edward
III, was born.

Had Edward II been killed along with Gaveston in 1312 -- a definite
possibility at the time -- Edward III might never have been born. He
wouldn't have produced the lines of descent that ultimately branched out to
include all those presidents, writers and Hollywood stars.

Of course, the only reason we're talking about Edward III is that history
remembers him. For every medieval monarch, there are countless long-dead
individuals whose intrigues, peccadilloes and luck have steered the course
of history simply by determining where, when and with whom they reproduced.

The longer ago somebody lived, the more descendants that person is likely to
have today. Humphrys estimates that Muhammad, the founder of Islam, appears
on the family tree of every person in the Western world.

Problematic. -- DSH

Some people have tried to establish a documented line between Muhammad, who
was born in the 6th century, and the medieval English monarchs and, thus, to
most if not all people of European descent. Nobody has succeeded yet, but
one proposed lineage comes close. Though it has several weak links, the line
illustrates how lines of descent can wander down through the centuries,
connecting famous figures of the past to millions of people living today.

The proposed genealogy runs through Muhammad's daughter Fatima. Her husband
Ali, also a cousin of Muhammad, is considered by Shiite Muslims the
legitimate heir to leadership of Islam.

Ali and Fatima had a son, al-Hasan, who died in the late 7th century. About
three centuries -- 11 generations -- later, his descendant Ismail carried
the line to Europe when he became imam of Seville.

Many genealogists dispute the connection between al-Hasan and Ismail, saying
it includes characters invented by medieval genealogists to link the Abbadid
dynasty, founded by Ismail's son, to Muhammad.

The Abbadid dynasty was celebrated for making Seville a great cultural
center at a time when most of Europe was mired in the Dark Ages. The last
emir in that dynasty is thought to have had a daughter named Zaida, who is
said to have changed her name to Isabel upon converting to Christianity and
to have married Alfonso VI, king of Castile and Leon.

Yet there is no good evidence demonstrating that Isabel, who bore one son by
Alfonso VI, was the same person as Zaida. So the line between Muhammad and
the English monarchs probably breaks at this point.

But if you give the Muhammad-Ismail connection and the Zaida-Isabel story
the benefit of the doubt, the line leads, eight generations later, to
Isabel's descendant Maria de Padilla (though it does encounter yet another
potentially fictional character in the process).

De Padilla married another king of Castile and Leon, Peter the Cruel. Their
great-great-granddaughter was Queen Isabella, who funded the voyages of
Christopher Columbus. Her daughter Juana married a Hapsburg, giving rise to
a Medici, a Bourbon and long line of Italian princes and dukes, spreading
the Muhammadan line of descent all over Europe.

Finally, 43 generations from Muhammad, you reach an Italian princess named
Marina Torlonia.

Her granddaughter is Brooke Shields."
--------------------------------------------------

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Exitus Acta Probat

Renia

Re: Carey Descents From Henry VIII?

Legg inn av Renia » 15 aug 2006 02:40:35

How do you make the leap from a variant (if such it is) spelling of
Quentin for the father of a popular British historian (Guy de la
Bedoyere), to proclaiming that Roy Stockdill will start claiming a Cary
descent?

You're trying to embarrass them both, I suppose, but you only embarrass
yourself, as usual.

Renia

D. Spencer Hines wrote:
Hilarious!

The next thing we know, Stockdill will be claiming descent from Henry VIII
himself.

"Quinten"?

Or Quentin?

DSH

""Roy Stockdill"" <roy.stockdill@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:44DFCB02.9738.2F13AC8@localhost...


From: "Brian Austin" <Brian.Austin@btinternet.com

Er, no. He was refused a papal dispensation to divorce Catherine of
Aragon in order to marry Anne. In fact he had received a papal
dispensation to marry Catherine in the first place despite the fact
that she had been married, albeit briefly, to his brother Arthur and
thus had been "one flesh". When Arthur died suddenly, it was stated
that the marriage had not been consummated and that Henry was free to
marry her. In his recent book "Six Wives", David Starkey suggests that
consummation did take place.

I think you will also find there was another problem in that Henry VIII
had
had a previous relationship with Mary Boleyn, Anne's elder sister, and
that there were supposedly two children of that union who were given
the surname CAREY. This has been well documented, though whether
Henry's paternity has ever been definitely proved I could not say.

One of the alleged descendants of that union is a chap called Guy de la
Bedoyere, a fairly well known TV historian, who wrote an article about it
in a genealogical magazine quite recently. Oddly enough, his father
Quinten [sic] once sold me an insurance policy!

Roy Stockdill
Guild of One-Name Studies: http://www.one-name.org
Newbies' Guide to Genealogy & Family History:
http://www.genuki.org.uk/gs/Newbie.html

"There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about,
and that is not being talked about."
OSCAR WILDE



D. Spencer Hines

Re: Carey Descents From Henry VIII?

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 15 aug 2006 03:12:10

It's good to see that Stockdull is a Tight Little Islander -- one of the
worst variants of ragamuffin Brit -- parochial to the core.

I had always suspected as much.

He's also often tight it more ways than one, I suspect.

DSH

Fortem Posce Animum

Peter MEAZEY

Re: Sire & Sieur (a bit long, in English)

Legg inn av Peter MEAZEY » 15 aug 2006 11:00:03

Denis, Pierre et al.,
Some confusion has crept in here and needs to be sorted.
As has been stated, "sire" was commonly used to adress the holder of a
"seigneurie" (lordship) and the Latin equivalent was "dominus". So far
so good, but this is not the whole story since "seigneur" (lord) covers
a wide range of social and legal conditions right down to what in
England would be "lord of the manor" or "squire". In medieval French
sources the use of "sire" and variant forms (messire, missire) is
usually restricted to the upper level of the nobility. The addition of
mentions such as "haut et puissant" (high and mighty) gives the general
tone, as does the term "chatelain" which implied the right to fortify,
to build a castle, and was strictly limited. A "seigneur chatelain"
normally held all the power locally - typically including justice
right up to the death penalty. He might be adressed as "sire" - your
ordinary lord of the manor would not.

None of this should be confused with the later use of "sieur". A
"sieurie" was a land-holding without rights of lordship: a "sieur" by
definition did not possess any legal jurisdiction or other feudal
rights. "Monsieur" in modern French translates as "Mister" and not as
"My Lord". In the 17th century these "sieurie" names began to be used in
addition to family names and eventually to replace them. Thus the Magon
family of St Malo, prosperous ship-owners of non-noble origin, used "de
la Lande", "de la Chipaudière" etc. and are referred to as "Monsieur de
la Lande Magon" or "Le sieur de la Chipaudière". René Trouin, sieur du
Gué, drifts into Duguay-Trouin, and Pinot du Clos becomes Duclos-Pinot.
This causes great confusion for genealogists unfamiliar with the system
who tend to suppose that a family "de" wherever must be noble. The use
of the particle implies nothing of the sort. In fact a "sieur de" name
may just as well be used by a minor branch of an authentic noble family
as by a newly enriched grocer who has bought a small farm. A given
individual could of course hold several properties, being "seigneur" of
one and "sieur" of another.
HTH
Peter Meazey, Dinan, Brittany

pierre_aronax@hotmail.com

Re: Sire & Sieur (a bit long, in English)

Legg inn av pierre_aronax@hotmail.com » 15 aug 2006 11:55:48

Peter MEAZEY a écrit :

Denis, Pierre et al.,
Some confusion has crept in here and needs to be sorted.

Part of the confusion comes from the fact that I spoke of modern use,
when you are speaking of ancient use!

As has been stated, "sire" was commonly used to adress

It was not only a form of adress, no more than seigneur of which it is
simply a variante.

the holder of a
"seigneurie" (lordship) and the Latin equivalent was "dominus". So far
so good, but this is not the whole story since "seigneur" (lord) covers
a wide range of social and legal conditions right down to what in
England would be "lord of the manor" or "squire".

So for sire which covers the same range of conditions than seigneur.

In medieval French
sources the use of "sire" and variant forms (messire, missire) is
usually restricted to the upper level of the nobility.
The addition of
mentions such as "haut et puissant" (high and mighty) gives the general
tone,

Exactly the same addition can be made before "seigneur", because the
two words are sinonymous.

<...>

None of this should be confused with the later use of "sieur".

None did confuse it.

A
"sieurie" was a land-holding without rights of lordship: a "sieur" by
definition did not possess any legal jurisdiction or other feudal
rights. "Monsieur" in modern French translates as "Mister" and not as
"My Lord". In the 17th century these "sieurie" names began to be used in
addition to family names and eventually to replace them. Thus the Magon
family of St Malo, prosperous ship-owners of non-noble origin, used "de
la Lande", "de la Chipaudière" etc. and are referred to as "Monsieur de
la Lande Magon" or "Le sieur de la Chipaudière". René Trouin, sieur du
Gué, drifts into Duguay-Trouin, and Pinot du Clos becomes Duclos-Pinot.
This causes great confusion for genealogists unfamiliar with the system
who tend to suppose that a family "de" wherever must be noble. The use
of the particle implies nothing of the sort.

Entirely correct but entirely irrelevant to the subject.

In fact a "sieur de" name
may just as well be used by a minor branch of an authentic noble family
as by a newly enriched grocer who has bought a small farm. A given
individual could of course hold several properties, being "seigneur" of
one and "sieur" of another.

I am more than sceptical on the distinctions you make here. You claim
that "Monsieur in modern French translates as Mister and not as My
Lord" and was reserved to tenant of lands who were not seigneuries.
That is clearly wrong: what do you make of "Monsieur de Condé",
"Monsieur de Luxembourg", "Monsieur de Rohan"? Are they also simple
Misters?

You claim that "a 'sieur' by definition did not possess any legal
jurisdiction or other feudal rights". It is wrong since "sieur" can
still be used at the time as an equivalent of "seigneur"(1)

For what is of the use of "sieur" before names in archival documents, I
think it is simply a handy way to designate people who may or may not
have other titles, without referring by that to them as holders of any
kind of land in particular (although of course they can use the name of
that land as their name, but that has no relation to the use of sieur
in the document): I think so because that use still exists and
precisely the only place were "sieur" still survives is in formal
notaries' language. And, of course, that "sieur before name" can be
used in modern France for very high lords(2).

So, IMHO, the only distinction to make is between "sieur" before name
(and Monsieur is only the address deriving from it), used particularly
in the legal language, and "sieur" as an equivalent of "seigneur" of a
land. For me, your purported "sieurie" simply pertain to the first
category: "Monsieur de la Lande Magon" don't sound different from
"Monsieur Dupont", except by the fact the first Monsieur use an estate
name as his patronymic, when the second does not. But they are both
equally Monsieur without relation to any particular land.

Pierre

(1) See for example, from the catalogue of the BNF:
"Déclaration du roi, par laquelle Benjamin de Rohan, sieur de Soubize,
est déclaré criminel de lèse-majesté au premier chef, ses biens
acquis et confisqués, et réunis au domaine de Sa Majesté (15 juill.
1622)" (that person was the brother of the Duke of Rohan).
"Correspondance inédite du duc de Rohan, du cardinal de Richelieu et
de Louis de Montcalm, sieur de Saint-Véran et de Candiac, au sujet de
la paix d'Alais", 1629
(2) Some book titles taken from the catalogue of the BNF:
"Arrest du conseil (d'Estat) portant commission pour la démolition des
tours, forts et forteresses, chasteaux et maisons appartenans au Sieur
de Rohan... " (1629)
"Arrêt du conseil d'état qui fait défenses au sieur Prince
Constantin de Rohan, de percevoir des droits de péage sur les
rivières de Vienne et de Creuse ; et par terre dans la seigneurie de
Nouatre, généralité de Tours" (1759)

Bob Turcott

Re: De Meherenc de Montmirel royal gateway- new

Legg inn av Bob Turcott » 15 aug 2006 20:25:03

To all:

The farm of the Tourailles at Trévières existed since the XIIIe and a man :
Guillaume de Meherenc, sgn des Londes, was one the owner of this farm. You
can see on the picture the chapelle of the XVth century of this farm. Go to
my Meherenc website to see:


http://groups.msn.com/MeherencGenealogy ... vires.msnw

http://groups.msn.com/MeherencGenealogy/

Bob Turcott

_________________________________________________________________
Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm0 ... direct/01/

Gjest

Re: Gray's Inn, London

Legg inn av Gjest » 15 aug 2006 22:16:02

In my experience, entrance to the Inn's of London follows matriculation or a
degree from Oxford or Cambridge. Matriculation as young as 15 is not
uncommon. If you have a name I will check Oxford University

Adrian


In a message dated 15/08/2006 19:54:29 GMT Standard Time,
j.broadbent@juno.com writes:

Dear Listers,

About what age might someone be when admitted to Gray's Inn, London -- in
1634.

Janet

Eve McLaughlin

Re: Carey Descents From Henry VIII?

Legg inn av Eve McLaughlin » 15 aug 2006 23:35:46

In article <ebr8md$grk$1@mouse.otenet.gr>, Renia <renia@DELETEotenet.gr>
writes
How do you make the leap from a variant (if such it is) spelling of
Quentin for the father of a popular British historian (Guy de la
Bedoyere), to proclaiming that Roy Stockdill will start claiming a Cary
descent?

Quintin and Quinten are both used normally.
You're trying to embarrass them both, I suppose, but you only embarrass
yourself, as usual.

If little Hines did embarrassment, he would go away and hide, after his
shameful failure to get on in the navy where his father was a
distinguished officer, because of his own stupid actions.


--
Eve McLaughlin

Author of the McLaughlin Guides for family historians
Secretary Bucks Genealogical Society

Peter Stewart

Re: Young bishops Re: Hildegard of Flanders

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 16 aug 2006 01:44:33

Jwc1870@aol.com wrote:
Dear Peter and others,
Weren`t there also some underaged popes
set up by the Cresentii family in the tenth century ? John XI for instance
appears to have been only 21. Succeeded 931, born abt 910 to Marozia, daughter of
the Patrician Theophylact and his wife Theodora and said to have been the son
of Pope Sergius III.

There were many irregularities in the 10th century Church - the point
is that if we don't know this in a particular case, and in fact the
sources flatly state that a particular man succeeded as bishop without
qualifying this in any way, then the strong presumption must be that he
was qualified for the office under canon law. If a conjecture that
there was an exception is proposed, without evidence, only to back up
another conjecture about the family origin of the bishop's mother then
it is a fairly pointless exercise in speculation. All the more so when
the genealogy proposed for the mother is at odds with at least one
interested source describng her background, and in the absence of any
corroborating evidence apart from the Remiremont list that is
unsatisfactory for the reason plainly illustrated by the contemporary
Reichenau list.

By the way, John XI's birthdate is not known for certain - his nephew
John XII was known to be 21 at the time of his election as pope, and
this came about because the electors had sworn an oath in the reign of
his predecessor to choose him at the next vacancy. This did not alter
canon law.

Peter Stewart

Peter Stewart

Re: Young bishops Re: Hildegard of Flanders

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 16 aug 2006 01:49:44

Peter Stewart wrote:

<snip>

By the way, John XI's birthdate is not known for certain - his nephew
John XII was known to be 21 at the time of his election as pope, and
this came about because the electors had sworn an oath in the reign of
his predecessor to choose him at the next vacancy. This did not alter
canon law.

Apologies for my absent-mindedness: John XII was known to be 18 when
elected pope.

Peter Stewart

Gjest

Re: Young bishops Re: Hildegard of Flanders

Legg inn av Gjest » 16 aug 2006 02:05:03

Dear Peter and others,
Weren`t there also some underaged popes
set up by the Cresentii family in the tenth century ? John XI for instance
appears to have been only 21. Succeeded 931, born abt 910 to Marozia, daughter of
the Patrician Theophylact and his wife Theodora and said to have been the son
of Pope Sergius III.
Sincerely,
James W
Cummings
Dixmont,
Maine USA

Gjest

Re: Patterns of Nobility

Legg inn av Gjest » 16 aug 2006 03:01:02

Dear Leo,
I believe that is correct. However , weren`t English Dukes
confined to the sovereign as Duke of Normandy and Duke of Aquitaine until the
early part of the fourteenth century when The Earl of Lancaster, John of Gaunt`s
father-in-law was created Duke and Margaret, daughter of Thomas, Earl of
Norfolk was created Duchess of Norfolk.
Sincerely,
James W
Cummings
Dixmont,
Maine USA

Leo van de Pas

Re: Patterns of Nobility

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 16 aug 2006 03:21:02

I think it was the Duke of Lancaster who went to Scotland and was the cause
of the two Scottish creations.
Leo

----- Original Message -----
From: <Jwc1870@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 10:59 AM
Subject: Re: Patterns of Nobility


Dear Leo,
I believe that is correct. However , weren`t English Dukes
confined to the sovereign as Duke of Normandy and Duke of Aquitaine until
the
early part of the fourteenth century when The Earl of Lancaster, John of
Gaunt`s
father-in-law was created Duke and Margaret, daughter of Thomas, Earl of
Norfolk was created Duchess of Norfolk.
Sincerely,
James
W
Cummings

Dixmont,
Maine USA


Roger LeBlanc

Re: Young bishops Re: Hildegard of Flanders

Legg inn av Roger LeBlanc » 16 aug 2006 03:36:02

On the subject of young bishops, I am wondering about the case of
Pierre, the son of Sybille d'Anjou and Thierry d'Alsace. Wasn't he
Bishop of Cambrai from 1167-1175? If he were aged 30 in 1167, it follows
his birth was 1137 or earlier. If his parents married in 1134 and he was
not the eldest son, it seems one could estimate the year of his birth
quite closely.

Roger LeBlanc

Gjest

Re: Descendants of Robert Talbot of Worfield and Anne Sheldo

Legg inn av Gjest » 16 aug 2006 04:11:02

In a message dated 8/15/06 1:25:17 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
PrincepsDraconis@aol.com writes:

<< grandparents - John Talbot and Olive Sherrington >>

http://photography.about.com/library/we ... 42902c.htm
Here is a rather humorous anecdote which confirms the existence of this couple

It was then sold to William Sharington for £783 in 1539; he rebuilt it as a
stately tudor mansion, incorporating the thirteenth century chapter house,
sacristy and cloisters.

Sir William Sharington (or Sherrington) had travelled in Europe and took an
interest in architecture. He was one of those to introduce some of the ideas he
had seen in Italy to England. He died in 1553, and as he had no children, the
property passed to his brother Henry.

Henry's young daughter, Olive, fell in love with a Mr John Talbot from
Salwarp; he came from a branch of the noble Talbot family but was virtually
penniless, so her father forbade the couple to meet. Talbot was banned from the house
after the couple were found whispering sweet nothings in a cellar. Olive sent
a letter to John, saying she since she was not allowed out to meet him, she
would talk to him from the roof of the Abbey. When he turned up that evening,
she called from the roof that she would leap down if he would catch her. He,
taking this as an expression of her feelings rather than a promise of action,
replied warmly and positively, inviting her to join him. She did.

Olive jumped accurately, knocking John to the floor, where he lay
unconscious. Thinking he was dead, she screamed loudly and in despair, bringing out her
father and his staff. The old man was so moved by her courage in this desperate
leap (or perhaps so worried about what she might attempt next) that he
immediately changed his mind. They were married in 1574, and John Talbot died in
1581. The house passed to Sherrington Talbot (d 1642), their eldest son who took
his mother's surname as a given name. His eldest son and heir was also named
Sherrington Talbot (d 1677).

Will Johnson

Peter Stewart

Re: Young bishops Re: Hildegard of Flanders

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 16 aug 2006 04:15:04

"Roger LeBlanc" <leblancr@mts.net> wrote in message
news:44E2752C.8010706@mts.net...
On the subject of young bishops, I am wondering about the case of Pierre,
the son of Sybille d'Anjou and Thierry d'Alsace. Wasn't he Bishop of
Cambrai from 1167-1175? If he were aged 30 in 1167, it follows his birth
was 1137 or earlier. If his parents married in 1134 and he was not the
eldest son, it seems one could estimate the year of his birth quite
closely.

In this case it appears that Pierre was elected bishop at the age of ca 23.

According to a continuator of 'Genealogia Comitum Flandriae Bertiniana', MGH
SS IX 307, Pierre was youngest of the sons of Thierry by Sybille - three
are named in the earliest copy, Philippe, Mathieu and Pierre in that order,
while codices from Dijon and Cîteaux add the eldest, Balduin, ahead of these
three. Succession to Flanders would confirm that Philippe was the eldest
surviving son on the death of their father, and he is supposed to have been
born in the summer of 1142 in which case his youngest brother could not have
been born before 1144.

I will check this further when I have time.

Peter Stewart

Gjest

Re: Descendants of Robert Talbot of Worfield and Anne Sheldo

Legg inn av Gjest » 16 aug 2006 05:16:02

On John Talbot / Olive Sherrington
http://www.thepeerage.com/p18374.htm#i183732
gives an incorrect linkage assigning to them a daughter
Dorothy Talbot m John Skrymshire d 1569
by which a son
Thomas Skrymshire d 1594

Obviously by the anecdote previously quoted, Olive Sherrington married in
1574 and so could not be the mother of a woman Dorothy who had to have married by
1569

Will Johnson

Paul Mackenzie

Re: Margaret Nuthill nee Breous

Legg inn av Paul Mackenzie » 16 aug 2006 06:07:22

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 8/14/06 6:44:05 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
paul.mackenzie@ozemail.com.au writes:

Mary was the brother of this late
John de Breouse. John de Breouse the younger was declared an idiot in
1357. According to an enquiry into the sanity of John de Brewes in 1369
he had married Joan sister of Edmund de Cornubia. CIPM 12:255

Then it must be that Mary was the widow of Thomas of Brotherton, Earl of
Norfolk d 1338 ? This Mary, Leo has as "Mary of Ros"

Heraldry of the Royal Families calls her "Mary d of William Lord Ros"

Will Johnson


Genealogists have in the past confused Mary d1326, the wife of William
de Breouse d1290 Lord of Bramber and Gower, and daughter of William de
Ros of Helmsey with Mary de Breouse d1361 widow of Thomas of Brotherton,
Earl of Norfolk and Marshall of England, and daughter of Peter de
Breouse d1312, son of the said William de Breouse,and his wife Mary.

The Mary referred to in these documents is the latter, that is the widow
of Thomas de Brotherton. Peter de Breouse d1312 had at least the
following children Thomas, John, Mary and possibly Peter [of Wiston]


Regards


Paul.

Gjest

Re: Margaret Nuthill nee Breous

Legg inn av Gjest » 16 aug 2006 06:31:02

In a message dated 8/14/06 6:44:05 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
paul.mackenzie@ozemail.com.au writes:

<< Mary was the brother of this late
John de Breouse. John de Breouse the younger was declared an idiot in
1357. According to an enquiry into the sanity of John de Brewes in 1369
he had married Joan sister of Edmund de Cornubia. CIPM 12:255 >>

Then it must be that Mary was the widow of Thomas of Brotherton, Earl of
Norfolk d 1338 ? This Mary, Leo has as "Mary of Ros"

Heraldry of the Royal Families calls her "Mary d of William Lord Ros"

Will Johnson

John Matthews

Re: Gray's Inn, London

Legg inn av John Matthews » 16 aug 2006 06:43:01

ADRIANCHANNING@aol.com wrote:
In my experience, entrance to the Inn's of London follows matriculation or a
degree from Oxford or Cambridge. Matriculation as young as 15 is not
uncommon. If you have a name I will check Oxford University

Adrian


In a message dated 15/08/2006 19:54:29 GMT Standard Time,
j.broadbent@juno.com writes:

Dear Listers,

About what age might someone be when admitted to Gray's Inn, London -- in
1634.

Janet

Many people attended one of the Inns after going to Oxford or
Cambridge, but many others didn't go to university. The person I'm
currently researching entered Lincoln's Inn in 1600 when he was 17, but
didn't go to Oxford or Cambridge as far as I can tell. Unlike the
universities, there were no scholarships to the Inns, so entering an
Inn is a good indicator of family wealth and status.

John Matthews

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: Margaret Nuthill nee Breous

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 16 aug 2006 09:05:05

In message of 16 Aug, WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 8/14/06 6:44:05 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
paul.mackenzie@ozemail.com.au writes:

Mary was the brother of this late
John de Breouse. John de Breouse the younger was declared an idiot in
1357. According to an enquiry into the sanity of John de Brewes in 1369
he had married Joan sister of Edmund de Cornubia. CIPM 12:255

Then it must be that Mary was the widow of Thomas of Brotherton, Earl of
Norfolk d 1338 ? This Mary, Leo has as "Mary of Ros"

Heraldry of the Royal Families calls her "Mary d of William Lord Ros"

CP IX, 598 has her father as Piers de Brewes of Tetbury, quoting Cal.
Inq. p. m. vol. viii, no 529 (p. 577) and Cott. MS., Jul., C vii, fo.
174. There is no correction in XIV nor on Chris Phillips' site.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/

David Teague

Re: Young bishops Re: Hildegard of Flanders

Legg inn av David Teague » 16 aug 2006 09:10:02

Am I misremembering, or wasn't Pope Benedict IX in the 11th C. (reigned 3
times between 1032 and 1048) also younger than the canonical age on his
first elevation to the Papacy?

David Teague


From: "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Young bishops Re: Hildegard of Flanders
Date: 15 Aug 2006 17:49:44 -0700


Peter Stewart wrote:

snip

By the way, John XI's birthdate is not known for certain - his nephew
John XII was known to be 21 at the time of his election as pope, and
this came about because the electors had sworn an oath in the reign of
his predecessor to choose him at the next vacancy. This did not alter
canon law.

Apologies for my absent-mindedness: John XII was known to be 18 when
elected pope.

Peter Stewart

Peter Stewart

Re: Young bishops Re: Hildegard of Flanders

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 16 aug 2006 09:25:48

""David Teague"" <davteague@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:BAY101-F7F098431D0B0E3EFA33F8BB4C0@phx.gbl...
Am I misremembering, or wasn't Pope Benedict IX in the 11th C. (reigned 3
times between 1032 and 1048) also younger than the canonical age on his
first elevation to the Papacy?

Radulf Glaber says he was just ten - "puer ferme decennis" - but it is
believed he was closer to double that age when elected. Two of his uncles
were his immediate predecessors, and his father arranged the matter. As
Glaber remarked, at that time gold and silver counted for more than merit in
the Church.

Peter Stewart

Peter MEAZEY

Re: Sire & Sieur

Legg inn av Peter MEAZEY » 16 aug 2006 10:40:03

Pierre,
I would dispute your argument that "seigneur" and "sire" should be
considered as synonyms. While the expression "seigneur" applies to all
levels of French nobility from Royal princes down to the dozen families
that claimed priviledged status in the same parish in the Côtes
d'Armor, the use of "sire" and its variants is usually more limited.
Practise may well have varied over the centuries, and from one region to
another, but as a very rough rule of thumb it seems to me that whereas
the "aristocracy" tend to be treated as "sires", minor country gentry
generally do not. They are all noble - but some carry more weight than
others. So a "sire" is a "seigneur" but a "seigneur" is not necessarily
a "sire".
I take your point about "sieur" being used indiscriminately - the Rohan
example is very clear - but I think you are wrong to suggest that
the word did not also have a specific meaning. At the period many
listers seem to be interested in, the 17th century and "gateway"
ancestors, it is important to understand the difference between those
who were "seigneur de..." and those who were described as "sieur de...".
The first is an indication of noble status, the second is not. I would
suggest that the lower you go down the social scale, the more this
distinction was important. This dividing line became crucial for many
poorer noble families in the context of the Reformation de la Noblesse
in the late 17th century. Of course this did not matter for the upper
reaches of the aristocracy, whose nobility was not in question.
I'm afraid modern-day notarial practise really does have a whiff of the
red herring...
Regards,
Peter Meazey

Walt O'Dowd

Re: Descendants of Robert Talbot of Worfield and Anne Sheldo

Legg inn av Walt O'Dowd » 16 aug 2006 12:15:02

The following does not answer the original query but has information
which might be of interest, especially regarding the Sherringtons
[pedigrees based on visitations] although there is a brief mention [page
359] of "Mr. Sherington Talbot" as Lord of Lacock in 1645.

See [*Book 10 Annals & antiquities of Lacock Abbey, by William Lisle
Bowles, 1838 ]* on the following page:

http://www.wiltshire.gov.uk/community/t ... =&dir=Next

Walt O'Dowd

Gjest

Re: Babington's Portrait

Legg inn av Gjest » 16 aug 2006 19:05:02

In a message dated 8/16/2006 9:58:14 AM Pacific Standard Time,
Jonesgenealogist@aol.com writes:

There is a reference to a portrait of a group of "conspirators" involved in

The Babington Plot of Mary Queen of Scots, the summer of 1586. Does
anyone
know if this portrait is still in existance, or if there is a copy or
record
of its existance? Reference: "Mary Queen of Scots," by Antonia Fraser, p.
487. It is recorded that a motto painted above them read: "Hi mihi sum
comites, quos ipsa pericula dicunt." Thanks, The Jones Genealogist.



Search on Royal Portrait Gallery

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Stockdill Tells Us He Is A Bastard

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 16 aug 2006 19:05:04

Hmmmmmmmm...

Stockdill Tells Us He Is A Bastard -- Literally...

Well, No Surprises There, Victoria.

Perhaps that is why he is so interested in Genealogy -- particularly the
more mundane aspects thereof.

Bastards & Homosexuals Seem To Have A Particular Affinity For Genealogy...

For Quite Obvious Reasons.

Enjoy!

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum
----------------------------------------------------

""Roy Stockdill"" <roy.stockdill@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:44E33982.21081.3BF6F3@localhost...

Thought I would post the following, just to show that hypocrisy certainly
does not reign here entirely. I am a current living person (though my
wife says she sometimes has her doubts!).

I was born on 4th July 1940 at 217 Horton Lane, Bradford, Yorkshire. In
fact, though the address on my birth certificate looks like a private
home, it was in fact St Luke's Hospital where probably half the
population of the city of Bradford was born in those days. However, up
to about 1927/8 it had formerly been the Bradford Union Workhouse and
for donkeys years afterwards the local registrars apparently thought
there was some kind of stigma attached to it, thus they only put the
street address. You see, there was absurd over-sensitivity even in those
days.

My father was Leonard Stockdill, an engineer's clerk at the time who
later became a publican. My mother was Molly Midgley and they weren't
married when I came along because my dad was still legally married to,
though separated from, his first wife.

My birth wasn't actually registered until the following January 1941,
which meant my parents technically committed a criminal offence, since
births are supposed to be registered within 42 days. However, there was
a war on and I expect they were too busy to think about it. They
eventually married in the October of 1942 when my father's divorce had
come through.

So I was born illegitimate in a former workhouse, my parents committed
an offence by registering my birth outside the permitted time and they
weren't married until some two years and three months after I was born.

Why should I worry about telling the world this? Oh - and, BTW, anyone
thinking of ripping off my bank account now that they know my mother's
maiden name would be wasting their time because I don't use it as the
password.

There - why some people feel that having such knowledge made public
is an invasion of their privacy will remain a bit of a mystery to me, I'm
afraid. But there are lots of sensitive little souls around, I suppose.

Peter

Re: Stockdill Tells Us He Is A Bastard

Legg inn av Peter » 16 aug 2006 19:11:38

On Wed, 16 Aug 2006 19:05:04 +0100, "D. Spencer Hines"
<poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote:

Hmmmmmmmm...

Stockdill Tells Us He Is A Bastard -- Literally...

Well, No Surprises There, Victoria.

Perhaps that is why he is so interested in Genealogy -- particularly the
more mundane aspects thereof.

Bastards & Homosexuals Seem To Have A Particular Affinity For Genealogy...

For Quite Obvious Reasons.

Enjoy!

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum

It really is SO ignorant to reply to your own posts - you really are
so stupid aren't you?

I expect your father must have been SO dissappointed

The son of Admiral Wellington T Hines (war hero and pioneer of carrier
based
operations in the US Navy) Baby David's career was all mapped out for
him:
Yale, Officer Training - he was being groomed for a top slot at the
Pentagon.


But as with many great men, the son rarely lives up to expectations.


He was relieved for 'cause' on two separate occasions while serving in
the
United States Navy, the first being while assigned to Naval Security
Group
Activity Misawa, Japan, the second while assigned to CINCPAC's Intel
Division on Oahu.


The latter incident got him reassigned to Pearl Harbor here he assumed
the duties as housing officer, quite a demotion for one whose career
had such glowing promise as a junior officer.


Never endearing, and forever the outcast, this "pompous nautical ass"
laboured hard and doggedly for his promotions up to the rank of
Commander, but he ran into the 'eye of the storm' when he tried to
pull one tantrum after another in disagreement with a very sage
Captain who would go on to become Commander, U.S.Naval Security Group
Command!


He was yanked from his operational duties on the first occasion, and
appointed XO simply for the convenience of being under close scrutiny
by the C.O, and in a position less harassing to the other 700+ members
of the command.


This was NOT a promotion.


He served only as XO while the paperwork for his transfer made it
through
the bureaucratic chain back in Washington. That didn't take all that
long,
and before anyone knew it, D. Spencer Hines and his marvellous wife
(how
she's put up with him for all these years must remain one of the
world's
greatest mysteries), had departed Northern Honshu for the Hawaiian
Islands.


It's one thing to butt heads with a Captain, but when told to cool
your jets by a four-star and you still stand your ground, most wise
men
know that their careers will, at that very moment, gain great
momentum and a natural phenomenon of tailspins that have continued to
this
day!


In summary, in the words of a fellow officer who served with him:


" D Spencer Hines is one of the most arrogant jackasses to ever breath
and
walk upon the face of earth. He hadn't a clue what leadership was all
about,
and in the face of intelligence evaluation, he would always ask for a
point
paper when one's analysis varied from his - and that was often the
case.


"A towering man, of bulk and arrogance, this red headed barbarian is
not worth the grey hairs many of your constituents seem to be letting
themselves in for.


"He is his father's son, but nothing like his father, but rather, more
a quasi-nautical south seas jester at this stage in life whose open
sores apparently continue to ooze and your group are the swabs being
used to absorb all that ails this sick man during his transition to
senior citizenship!"

--
Peter

D Spencer Hines est a deficio miles militis quod stultus

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Stockdill Tells Us He Is A Bastard

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 16 aug 2006 19:26:39

Yes, Good Points.

Well, Stockdill admits he is a bastard.

How many other bastards do we have in these groups?

Step Forward And Tell Us All About It.

Particularly those in SGB and SGM.

It Will Be Good For Your Souls.

Bastards seem to have a particular affinity for Genealogy -- looking for
their ancestors in order to restore some Personal Sense of Legitimacy.

Homosexuals, including Lesbians of course, ALSO have a particular attraction
to Genealogy. Often they realize they will never have any DESCENDANTS -- so
they look BACK to ANCESTORS for personal validation and affirmation.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Exitus Acta Probat

"Vince" <firelaw@firelaw.us> wrote in message
news:S_KdnQV6U4l__X7ZnZ2dnUVZ_rGdnZ2d@comcast.com...

D. Spencer Hines wrote:

Hmmmmmmmm...

Stockdill Tells Us He Is A Bastard -- Literally...

Well, No Surprises There, Victoria.

Enjoy!

DSH

Who can forget The Professionals in which Ralph Bellamy calls Lee Marvin

"you bastard"

And Marvin replies


“Yes sir…in my case, an accident of birth.
But you, you're a self-made man.”)

Both Leonardo Da Vinci and Alexander Hamilton were bastards

So were Bernardo O'Higgins and Desiderius Erasmus.

And Abe Lincoln's Mother

Vince

Peter

Re: Stockdill Tells Us He Is A Bastard

Legg inn av Peter » 16 aug 2006 19:34:32

On Wed, 16 Aug 2006 19:26:39 +0100, "D. Spencer Hines"
<poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote:

Yes, Good Points.

Well, Stockdill admits he is a bastard.

How many other bastards do we have in these groups?

Step Forward And Tell Us All About It.

Particularly those in SGB and SGM.

It Will Be Good For Your Souls.

Bastards seem to have a particular affinity for Genealogy -- looking for
their ancestors in order to restore some Personal Sense of Legitimacy.

Homosexuals, including Lesbians of course, ALSO have a particular attraction
to Genealogy. Often they realize they will never have any DESCENDANTS -- so
they look BACK to ANCESTORS for personal validation and affirmation.

DSH


Were you dropped on your head as a baby?

--
Peter

D Spencer Hines est a deficio miles militis quod stultus

Grey Satterfield

Re: Stockdill Tells Us He Is A Bastard

Legg inn av Grey Satterfield » 16 aug 2006 20:39:45

On 8/16/06 1:11 PM, in article 2rn6e21fi7edmsqm70pb0o8evo2eb04fgq@4ax.com,
"Peter" <usenetINVALID@nidum.plus.com> wrote:
On Wed, 16 Aug 2006 19:05:04 +0100, "D. Spencer Hines"
poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote:
Hmmmmmmmm...

Stockdill Tells Us He Is A Bastard -- Literally...

Well, No Surprises There, Victoria.

Perhaps that is why he is so interested in Genealogy -- particularly the
more mundane aspects thereof.

Bastards & Homosexuals Seem To Have A Particular Affinity For Genealogy...

For Quite Obvious Reasons.

Enjoy!

DSH

It really is SO ignorant to reply to your own posts - you really are
so stupid aren't you?

I expect your father must have been SO dissappointed

The son of Admiral Wellington T Hines (war hero and pioneer of carrier based
operations in the US Navy) Baby David's career was all mapped out for him:
Yale, Officer Training - he was being groomed for a top slot at the Pentagon.

But as with many great men, the son rarely lives up to expectations.

He was relieved for 'cause' on two separate occasions while serving in the
United States Navy, the first being while assigned to Naval Security Group
Activity Misawa, Japan, the second while assigned to CINCPAC's Intel Division
on Oahu.

The latter incident got him reassigned to Pearl Harbor here he assumed
the duties as housing officer, quite a demotion for one whose career
had such glowing promise as a junior officer.

Never endearing, and forever the outcast, this "pompous nautical ass"
laboured hard and doggedly for his promotions up to the rank of
Commander, but he ran into the 'eye of the storm' when he tried to
pull one tantrum after another in disagreement with a very sage
Captain who would go on to become Commander, U.S.Naval Security Group
Command!

He was yanked from his operational duties on the first occasion, and
appointed XO simply for the convenience of being under close scrutiny
by the C.O, and in a position less harassing to the other 700+ members
of the command.

This was NOT a promotion.

He served only as XO while the paperwork for his transfer made it through the
bureaucratic chain back in Washington. That didn't take all that long, and
before anyone knew it, D. Spencer Hines and his marvellous wife (how she's put
up with him for all these years must remain one of the world's greatest
mysteries), had departed Northern Honshu for the Hawaiian Islands.

It's one thing to butt heads with a Captain, but when told to cool your jets
by a four-star and you still stand your ground, most wise men know that their
careers will, at that very moment, gain great momentum and a natural
phenomenon of tailspins that have continued to this day!

In summary, in the words of a fellow officer who served with him:

" D Spencer Hines is one of the most arrogant jackasses to ever breath and
walk upon the face of earth. He hadn't a clue what leadership was all about,
and in the face of intelligence evaluation, he would always ask for a point
paper when one's analysis varied from his - and that was often the case.

"A towering man, of bulk and arrogance, this red headed barbarian is
not worth the grey hairs many of your constituents seem to be letting
themselves in for.

"He is his father's son, but nothing like his father, but rather, more
a quasi-nautical south seas jester at this stage in life whose open
sores apparently continue to ooze and your group are the swabs being
used to absorb all that ails this sick man during his transition to
senior citizenship!"

Disgusting! The foregoing scurrilous screed about D. Spencer Hines by
"Peter" is so personal, so meanspirited, and so out of line, it makes me
sympathize with DSH. "Peter" might want to think about that before telling
us more than we want to know about anybody else.

Oh, yeah: *PLONK!*

Grey Satterfield

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Stockdill Tells Us He Is A Bastard

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 16 aug 2006 20:55:06

"Grey Satterfield" <gsatterfield@cox.net> wrote in message
news:C108DEB1.2F31F%gsatterfield@cox.net...

Disgusting! The foregoing scurrilous screed about D. Spencer Hines by
"Peter" is so personal, so mean-spirited, and so out of line, it makes me
sympathize with DSH. "Peter" might want to think about that before
telling us more than we want to know about anybody else.

Oh, yeah: *PLONK!*

Grey Satterfield
-----------------------------------------------------------------------


Thank you kindly, Grey.

It's also a complete load of ash, trash, codswallop and lies.

"Peter" -- who is a notorious sock puppet -- just likes to retail said
lies -- he's not capable of doing any useful, substantive posting on his
own.

Please recall I only reported what Roy Stockdill reported about HIMSELF. I
don't post lies about people.

This is the sort of abuse I'm used to -- because I use my Real Name.

"Peter" is far too cowardly to use HIS Real Name.

New Subject:

What are your considered opinions about the Administrations of Dwight David
Eisenhower and John Fitzgerald Kennedy?

Successes & Failures -- Strengths & Weaknesses. Comparisons & Contrasts.
Ranking As Presidents?

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Vires et Honor

Peter

Re: Stockdill Tells Us He Is A Bastard

Legg inn av Peter » 16 aug 2006 20:57:14

On Wed, 16 Aug 2006 14:39:45 -0500, Grey Satterfield
<gsatterfield@cox.net> wrote:


Disgusting! The foregoing scurrilous screed about D. Spencer Hines by
"Peter" is so personal, so meanspirited, and so out of line, it makes me
sympathize with DSH. "Peter" might want to think about that before telling
us more than we want to know about anybody else.

Oh, yeah: *PLONK!*

Grey Satterfield


A number of points, which I suppose may be rather superfluous now taht
you've killfiled me (assuming of course you actaully know what "plonk"
means and you haven't buggered off for a quart of electric soup):

1. What I posted above (and what you apparently found so objectionable
you failked to snip any of it) has been posted many times, on many
NG's
2. The halfwit Hines has never contradicted any of it.
3. People that live in glasshouses (or Hawaii) shouldn't throw stones.
4. I wait your rebuttal of the points made. However I shan't hold my
breath

--
Peter

D Spencer Hines est a deficio miles militis quod stultus

Svar

Gå tilbake til «soc.genealogy.medieval»