"Rashid Amora" <doosje@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:f0ab9$44b753c9$5038d469$13326@news.chello.nl...
Agnes was know to have 21 children. Since she had 11 eleven well
documented children with Leopold and only four were known by her first
husband (heilika, gertrud, friedrich and konrad) the remaining 7 children
were attested as having been died very young. In the abbey of Lorsch a
document was found with the names of her children by her first husband.
Yes and no.
The extract from the Lorsch abbey source includes the following eleven,
who are evidently siblings in a family group listed probably in order of
birth, given here in their generally accepted identifications along with
the spouses named:
1. 'Hadalwigis seu Heilice comitissae Friderici comitis' [Eilike, who died
after ca 1110, wife of Friedrich, count of Legenfeld]
2. 'Bertrade seu Berthe comitisse Adalberti comitis' [Bertha of Boll, died
after 1120, wife of Adalbert, count of Elchingen]
3. 'Friderici ducis Juditte ducisse Agnetis ducisse' [Friedrich II the
One-Eyed, duke of Swabia, died 4/6 April 1147, married firstly Judith
(died 22 February ca 1130/5), daughter of Heinrich IX the Black, duke of
Bavaria; married secondly Agnes, daughter of Friedrich I, count of
Saarbrücken]
4. 'Hildegardis...' [followed by an illegible word, not known further]
5. 'Cuonradi regis Gertrudis regine item Gertrudis regine' [Konrad III,
German king, died 15 February 1152, married firstly Gertrud (died before
ca 1134/5), daughter of Heinrich, count of Comburg & Rothenburg; married
secondly Gertrud (died 14 April 1140), daughter of Berengar II, count of
Sulzbach]
6. 'Gisilhildis seu Gisile' [Gisela or Gisihild, not known further]
7. 'Henrici pueris' [Heinrich, said to have died ca 1102]
8. 'Beatricis abbatisse' [Beatrix, abbess of an unknown convent, thought
to have died after ca 1130]
9. 'Cunigundis seu Cunisse ducisse' Henrici ducis' [Kunigunde or Cunizza,
died after ca 1120/perhaps before May 1127, whose husband was possibly
HEINRICH X the Proud, duke of Bavaria & Saxony (died 20 October 1139)
10. 'Sophie comitisse Adalberti comitis' [Sophia, wife of a Count Adalbert
who could be any one of several suggested candidates]
11. 'Fidis seu Gertrudis palatine Herimanni palatini' [Fides or Gertrud,
died 1142/9, wife of Hermann III of Stahleck, count palatine of the Rhine,
(died 1158)].
As you can see, there are not seven here who might have died in childhood,
but only three. Also there are only three whose identifications are
undoubted, leading some authorities to ignore the rest - however, no-one
has suggested a plausible alternative to explain their appearance together
in this list.
Peter Stewart
"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> schreef in bericht
news:mmrtg.4375$tE5.1484@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
francisco.tavaresdealmeida@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1152742137.278855.159650@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Mittelalter as indicated by Douglas Richardson seems to give her only
16 on two sources, 17 in both. Hansmartin Decker-Hauff leaves out Uta,
and Karl Lechner leaves out Adalbert the first Austria what is probably
a lapse or a bad transcription.
This was not a lapse, and may or may not have been in error - Lechner
conjectured that St Leopold had another wife before Agnes and that this
lady was mother of his son Adalbert. The rationale for this theory is
that Adalbert referred to a son of Rudolf of Perg as his "cognatus", and
that the best way to explain this term is by making him the son of St
Leopold by Rudolf's sister, who would have been a daughter of Walchun,
lord of Perg. No source confirms even the existence of such a woman,
much less that she was married to St Leopold, and none implies in any
way that Adalbert was other than a full-sibling to the children of
Leopold by Agnes. However, the possibility cannot be dismissed.
But for dates, they say she was born in 1072/3, late 1072 and Summer
1072 (Brandenburg says 1174/5) and her first son was born when she was
16. The only given date for the 1st marriage is 1086 so you should
check where your 1080 came from.
The second marriage was in 1106, when she was 34, Adalbert was born in
1107 and the last one when she was 46.
If he was the son of a first wife, Adalbert was presumably born in 1104
or 1105. The marriage of St Leopold to Agnes did take place in 1106, and
she was in her 34th year (though maybe not yet turned 34) at the time.
You may have noticed that Miroslav's data on the extra 6 of the first
marriage is sparse, almost none. If anything, they could be
illegitimous of Friedrich Hohenstauffen.
On the 2nd marriage, Miroslav adds 7 more without name and that died
young, so 19 children. But, if by the last one, is meant the last one
of those who did not died young, with some three or four pair of twins,
it was not impossible.
Maybe Miroslav Marek took a bad source - or a bad translation and the
first marriage's children were meant - and possibly, as he has
Hohenstauffen and Babenberg separated he just made a mess with Agnes'
children in both tables and did not noticed it.
I don't know how well-attested the seven children who are supposed to
have died young may be. Of St Leopold's offspring whose names are
recorded, all are treated in the sources as if they were full-siblings.
The youngest was apparently Elisabeth who married Count Hermann II of
WInzenburg in 1142, and she is specifically desribed (by her brother
Otto) as the sister of the German king Konrad III - i.e. she must have
been his maternal half-sister and therefore a daughter of Agnes.
The result of combining information from the few available sources is
that Agnes probably had eleven children by her first husband and at
least ten by her second. This sort of fecundity is by no means
unexampled, and I can't see a logical reason why Agnes should not have
been an example of it. Emperors' daughters can be freaks of nature just
like anyone else. If there really were seven other offspring of the
second marriage, most or all of them would surely have been twins with
others who survived childhood and whose names are known, as clearly
there must be a limit to the number of pregnancies to term that a woman
can have after her 34th year.
Peter Stewart