Blount-Ayala
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Gjest
Re: William FitzWilliam d 1534
I have found another document which touches on whether the various
FitzWilliam families are related to each other. Although this extract doesn't give
those exact details, it certainly seems like the very thing a person trying to
prove should examine. Note the various places named for the FitzWilliams listed:
Sprotbrogh, Lincolne, Bentley, Milton, Gaines Park [aka Gayespark and
Gainspark], Kingesley [in Hamshier], Plomtre, Kingshed, Fenton, Haddelsaye, Sawndbie
Will Johnson
--------------------------------
Northamptonshire Record Office: Fitzwilliam (Milton) Rolls, Estate and Family
FITZWILLIAM (MILTON) ROLLS, ESTATE AND FAMILY
ROLLS: PEDIGREES, ARMS, ETC. - ref. F(M) roll/434-462
FILE [no title] - ref. F(M) roll/434 - date: 1564
[from Scope and Content] At the foot are declarations signed by " (1) Hugh
Fitzwilliame of Sprotbrogh, (2) W Fitzwilliam de Lincolne, (3) Gearvis
Fitzwilliam, of Bentley, (4) John Fytzwyllyam, of Milton, (5) Bryan Fytzwylliam, of
Gaines Park in Essex, (6) William Fitzwilliam the eldest son to John Fitzwilliam
of Kingesley in Hamshier, (7) William Fytzwilliam, of Plomtre, (8) John
Fitzwilliam son and heyre to Richard Fytzwilliam, of Kingshed, (9) Thomas
Fitzwilliam eldest son to Frauncis lord of Fenton, (10) George Fitzwilliam of
Haddelsaye. (11) Charles Fytzwylliam de Sawndbie in Com.Nott., (12) John Fitzwilliam, of
Bentley, and (13) William Fitzwilliam, son and heir of Sir William
Fitzwilliam of Mylton; - and by the following Heralds, etc. "Will.Hervy, Clarencieulx,
G.Dethicke als. Garter, Principall King of Armes, Ro.Cooke Alias Chester Herald
of Armes, Wylliam Flower alias Norroy Roy d'armes, Nicholas Dethick
als.Blumantell, Rugecrosse als.Cotgrave and Edmond Knyght als.Rouge Dragon".
FitzWilliam families are related to each other. Although this extract doesn't give
those exact details, it certainly seems like the very thing a person trying to
prove should examine. Note the various places named for the FitzWilliams listed:
Sprotbrogh, Lincolne, Bentley, Milton, Gaines Park [aka Gayespark and
Gainspark], Kingesley [in Hamshier], Plomtre, Kingshed, Fenton, Haddelsaye, Sawndbie
Will Johnson
--------------------------------
Northamptonshire Record Office: Fitzwilliam (Milton) Rolls, Estate and Family
FITZWILLIAM (MILTON) ROLLS, ESTATE AND FAMILY
ROLLS: PEDIGREES, ARMS, ETC. - ref. F(M) roll/434-462
FILE [no title] - ref. F(M) roll/434 - date: 1564
[from Scope and Content] At the foot are declarations signed by " (1) Hugh
Fitzwilliame of Sprotbrogh, (2) W Fitzwilliam de Lincolne, (3) Gearvis
Fitzwilliam, of Bentley, (4) John Fytzwyllyam, of Milton, (5) Bryan Fytzwylliam, of
Gaines Park in Essex, (6) William Fitzwilliam the eldest son to John Fitzwilliam
of Kingesley in Hamshier, (7) William Fytzwilliam, of Plomtre, (8) John
Fitzwilliam son and heyre to Richard Fytzwilliam, of Kingshed, (9) Thomas
Fitzwilliam eldest son to Frauncis lord of Fenton, (10) George Fitzwilliam of
Haddelsaye. (11) Charles Fytzwylliam de Sawndbie in Com.Nott., (12) John Fitzwilliam, of
Bentley, and (13) William Fitzwilliam, son and heir of Sir William
Fitzwilliam of Mylton; - and by the following Heralds, etc. "Will.Hervy, Clarencieulx,
G.Dethicke als. Garter, Principall King of Armes, Ro.Cooke Alias Chester Herald
of Armes, Wylliam Flower alias Norroy Roy d'armes, Nicholas Dethick
als.Blumantell, Rugecrosse als.Cotgrave and Edmond Knyght als.Rouge Dragon".
-
Gjest
Re: William FitzWilliam d 1534 and A2A correction
I have found a document, new to me, that makes the children of William, also
VAUX descendents.
My corrective note, is attached at the end.
Will Johnson
Northamptonshire Record Office: Fitzwilliam (Milton) Rolls, Estate and Family
ROLLS: PEDIGREES, ARMS, ETC. - ref. F(M) roll/434-462
FILE [no title] - ref. F(M) roll/452 - date: Undated
[from Scope and Content] Roll of arms emblazoned, (somewhat similar to F(M)
roll 451) displaying the quarterings of descendants of (a) Robert, Duke of
Normandy through the Earls of Chester and Arundel to Rauf Cromwell, lord of
Tattershall (ob.1398) who married Maud Bernack; - (b) the Fitzwilliams of
Sprotborough from William the Earl Marshal to Sir William Fitzwilliam, of Gaines Park
and Milton, who married Anne. daughter of Sir John Hawes; - (c) the Nevilles,
from Gilbert Neville, Lord Admiral to William the Conqueror, showing the
connection of that family with the Fitzwilliams through the marriage of "Sir William
Fitzwilliam, of Gaines Park and Milton" with Anne Sabercotes, granddaughter of
Nicholas, Lord Vaux (whose mother was Alice, dau.of Richard Neville, Earl of
Salisbury)
-- Note by Will Johnson, the above should be modified to read that Nicholas'
FIRST WIFE Elizabeth FitzHugh is the one who had the "mother ... Alice, dau of
Richard Neville, Earl of Salisbury" - wjhonson@aol.com, June 2006
VAUX descendents.
My corrective note, is attached at the end.
Will Johnson
Northamptonshire Record Office: Fitzwilliam (Milton) Rolls, Estate and Family
ROLLS: PEDIGREES, ARMS, ETC. - ref. F(M) roll/434-462
FILE [no title] - ref. F(M) roll/452 - date: Undated
[from Scope and Content] Roll of arms emblazoned, (somewhat similar to F(M)
roll 451) displaying the quarterings of descendants of (a) Robert, Duke of
Normandy through the Earls of Chester and Arundel to Rauf Cromwell, lord of
Tattershall (ob.1398) who married Maud Bernack; - (b) the Fitzwilliams of
Sprotborough from William the Earl Marshal to Sir William Fitzwilliam, of Gaines Park
and Milton, who married Anne. daughter of Sir John Hawes; - (c) the Nevilles,
from Gilbert Neville, Lord Admiral to William the Conqueror, showing the
connection of that family with the Fitzwilliams through the marriage of "Sir William
Fitzwilliam, of Gaines Park and Milton" with Anne Sabercotes, granddaughter of
Nicholas, Lord Vaux (whose mother was Alice, dau.of Richard Neville, Earl of
Salisbury)
-- Note by Will Johnson, the above should be modified to read that Nicholas'
FIRST WIFE Elizabeth FitzHugh is the one who had the "mother ... Alice, dau of
Richard Neville, Earl of Salisbury" - wjhonson@aol.com, June 2006
-
Gjest
Re: Children of John Butler, 6th Earl of Ormond:Thoughts
Dear Will,
Sorry about the Anne (Agnes), there was to have been a question mark
after the Agnes, I had seen Anne several times but Agnes only once and
so thought to include it even if it were wrong just in case one was
right and other 3 were wrong, has been known to happen, repeat
something wrong enough times and it becomes fact. The other post that
disappeared into nether-land had the question mark.
Best as Always,
Emmett L. Butler
WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
Sorry about the Anne (Agnes), there was to have been a question mark
after the Agnes, I had seen Anne several times but Agnes only once and
so thought to include it even if it were wrong just in case one was
right and other 3 were wrong, has been known to happen, repeat
something wrong enough times and it becomes fact. The other post that
disappeared into nether-land had the question mark.
Best as Always,
Emmett L. Butler
WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 6/21/06 6:10:26 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
butlergrt@aol.com writes:
son: Sir William FitzWilliam b. 1526 - d. 1599 Lord Deputy of Ireland
occasional Lord Justice of Ireland between 1560-1594
mar.
Anne (Agnes) Sidney
son:
Sir William FitzWilliam b. ?- d. 1618
It appears that her name being Agnes, might be an error. Here is the
document in which she is not only called Anne, but her parents specified which
ensures little possibility that she is a different person.
Will
Northamptonshire Record Office: Fitzwilliam (Milton) Charters [F(M)
Charter/1660 - F(M) Charter/2630]
MILTON
FILE [no title] - ref. F(M) Charter/2308 - date: 18 July, 4 James I [1606]
[from Scope and Content] COVENANT between Sir William Fitzwilliam, of Milton,
Knt. and William Fitzwilliam, esq. his son and heir apparent by Winnyfrid his
wife, daughter "to that grave and worthie Counsellor of Estate [Walter?]
Mildmaie of Apthorp, Knt." of the one part and Richard Chichestre, of London,
gent. late attendant to Sir William Fitzwilliam late of Milton, "five tymes Lorde
Justice and twice Lorde Deputie of Ireland", deceased, and Dame Anne his wife
daughter of Sir William Sidney of Pencehurst, also deceased, of the other part
- that whereas Sir William Fitzwilliam lord deputy of Ireland and William his
son by deed dated 5 July 37 Eliz I [1595] granted to the said Richard
Chichestre, for his good services, an annuity of £20 to issue from the manor, etc. of
Milton - Now the aforesaid William Fitzwilliam "the sonne, then Esquire nowe
Knight" and William Fitzwilliam, esq. his son and heir, grant to the said
Richard Chichestre, an annuity of £6.13sh.4d. to issue from the manor etc. of
Milton, in addition to the abovesaid annuity of £20, to be paid yearly at "the
porche or doore which standeth on the south side of the parishe church of
Milton", on the F.of St. Michael and the F.of the Annunciation.
-
Gjest
Re: Children of John Butler, 6th Earl of Ormond:Thoughts
In a message dated 6/21/06 6:10:26 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
butlergrt@aol.com writes:
<< He was later made 1st Baronet was courtier-treasurer and
High Chamberlain to Cardinal Wolsely who made him a member of HenryVIII
council. Uk Archives >>
That he was a baronet appears to be in error. I have found a few dozen
documents where he is named, from the first in 1502 until around his death in 1534.
He is never called a baronet. Sometime between 1502 and 1519 he was
knighted, as I have a 1519 document where he is called Knt, however when he purchased
Milton he was "Merchant, of London"
Will Johnson
butlergrt@aol.com writes:
<< He was later made 1st Baronet was courtier-treasurer and
High Chamberlain to Cardinal Wolsely who made him a member of HenryVIII
council. Uk Archives >>
That he was a baronet appears to be in error. I have found a few dozen
documents where he is named, from the first in 1502 until around his death in 1534.
He is never called a baronet. Sometime between 1502 and 1519 he was
knighted, as I have a 1519 document where he is called Knt, however when he purchased
Milton he was "Merchant, of London"
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: Children of John Butler, 6th Earl of Ormond:Thoughts
In a message dated 6/21/06 6:10:26 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
butlergrt@aol.com writes:
<< son: Sir William FitzWilliam b. 1526 - d. 1599 Lord Deputy of Ireland
occasional Lord Justice of Ireland between 1560-1594
mar.
Anne (Agnes) Sidney
son:
Sir William FitzWilliam b. ?- d. 1618 >>
It appears that her name being Agnes, might be an error. Here is the
document in which she is not only called Anne, but her parents specified which
ensures little possibility that she is a different person.
Will
Northamptonshire Record Office: Fitzwilliam (Milton) Charters [F(M)
Charter/1660 - F(M) Charter/2630]
MILTON
FILE [no title] - ref. F(M) Charter/2308 - date: 18 July, 4 James I [1606]
[from Scope and Content] COVENANT between Sir William Fitzwilliam, of Milton,
Knt. and William Fitzwilliam, esq. his son and heir apparent by Winnyfrid his
wife, daughter "to that grave and worthie Counsellor of Estate [Walter?]
Mildmaie of Apthorp, Knt." of the one part and Richard Chichestre, of London,
gent. late attendant to Sir William Fitzwilliam late of Milton, "five tymes Lorde
Justice and twice Lorde Deputie of Ireland", deceased, and Dame Anne his wife
daughter of Sir William Sidney of Pencehurst, also deceased, of the other part
- that whereas Sir William Fitzwilliam lord deputy of Ireland and William his
son by deed dated 5 July 37 Eliz I [1595] granted to the said Richard
Chichestre, for his good services, an annuity of £20 to issue from the manor, etc. of
Milton - Now the aforesaid William Fitzwilliam "the sonne, then Esquire nowe
Knight" and William Fitzwilliam, esq. his son and heir, grant to the said
Richard Chichestre, an annuity of £6.13sh.4d. to issue from the manor etc. of
Milton, in addition to the abovesaid annuity of £20, to be paid yearly at "the
porche or doore which standeth on the south side of the parishe church of
Milton", on the F.of St. Michael and the F.of the Annunciation.
butlergrt@aol.com writes:
<< son: Sir William FitzWilliam b. 1526 - d. 1599 Lord Deputy of Ireland
occasional Lord Justice of Ireland between 1560-1594
mar.
Anne (Agnes) Sidney
son:
Sir William FitzWilliam b. ?- d. 1618 >>
It appears that her name being Agnes, might be an error. Here is the
document in which she is not only called Anne, but her parents specified which
ensures little possibility that she is a different person.
Will
Northamptonshire Record Office: Fitzwilliam (Milton) Charters [F(M)
Charter/1660 - F(M) Charter/2630]
MILTON
FILE [no title] - ref. F(M) Charter/2308 - date: 18 July, 4 James I [1606]
[from Scope and Content] COVENANT between Sir William Fitzwilliam, of Milton,
Knt. and William Fitzwilliam, esq. his son and heir apparent by Winnyfrid his
wife, daughter "to that grave and worthie Counsellor of Estate [Walter?]
Mildmaie of Apthorp, Knt." of the one part and Richard Chichestre, of London,
gent. late attendant to Sir William Fitzwilliam late of Milton, "five tymes Lorde
Justice and twice Lorde Deputie of Ireland", deceased, and Dame Anne his wife
daughter of Sir William Sidney of Pencehurst, also deceased, of the other part
- that whereas Sir William Fitzwilliam lord deputy of Ireland and William his
son by deed dated 5 July 37 Eliz I [1595] granted to the said Richard
Chichestre, for his good services, an annuity of £20 to issue from the manor, etc. of
Milton - Now the aforesaid William Fitzwilliam "the sonne, then Esquire nowe
Knight" and William Fitzwilliam, esq. his son and heir, grant to the said
Richard Chichestre, an annuity of £6.13sh.4d. to issue from the manor etc. of
Milton, in addition to the abovesaid annuity of £20, to be paid yearly at "the
porche or doore which standeth on the south side of the parishe church of
Milton", on the F.of St. Michael and the F.of the Annunciation.
-
Gjest
Re: Children of John Butler, 6th Earl of Ormond:Thoughts
In a message dated 6/21/06 6:10:26 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
butlergrt@aol.com writes:
<< Mar. 2nd from above beginning
Mildred Sackville b. ?- d. 1534
dau.
Mary FitzWilliam
mar.
John Shelly >>
On this dau Mary, his DNB article does not include her. What source did you
use to find her? The DNB states "By his first wife he had Sir William, his
heir...Richard, Elizabeth and Ann; by his second wife, Christopher, Francis and
Thomas....buried at Marholm."
Will Johnson
butlergrt@aol.com writes:
<< Mar. 2nd from above beginning
Mildred Sackville b. ?- d. 1534
dau.
Mary FitzWilliam
mar.
John Shelly >>
On this dau Mary, his DNB article does not include her. What source did you
use to find her? The DNB states "By his first wife he had Sir William, his
heir...Richard, Elizabeth and Ann; by his second wife, Christopher, Francis and
Thomas....buried at Marholm."
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: SP Correction: Alan, earl of Menteith (d.ca. 1308) and t
In a message dated 6/21/06 5:40:29 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Therav3 writes:
<< This identification presents chronological difficulties, given her
reputed birthdate (1234), the reported birth date of her son Colban
MacDuff [by first husband Malcolm, Earl of Fife] ca. 1250 and
additional children by Donald, Earl of Mar from ca. 1272 onward[5] >>
Is the source for this 1234 birthdate also Fordun?
There doesn't appear to be a chronologic problem with believing this date,
the additional six children she had by Donald Earl of Mar could have all been
born by 1275 or 80
Will
<< This identification presents chronological difficulties, given her
reputed birthdate (1234), the reported birth date of her son Colban
MacDuff [by first husband Malcolm, Earl of Fife] ca. 1250 and
additional children by Donald, Earl of Mar from ca. 1272 onward[5] >>
Is the source for this 1234 birthdate also Fordun?
There doesn't appear to be a chronologic problem with believing this date,
the additional six children she had by Donald Earl of Mar could have all been
born by 1275 or 80
Will
-
Gjest
Re: SP Correction: Alan, earl of Menteith (d.ca. 1308) and t
About Margaret Graham you wrote,
In a message dated 6/21/06 5:40:29 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Therav3 writes:
<< she m. 1stly Sir John de Moravia [Murray],
2ndly Thomas, Earl of Mar (divorced bef Feb 1358/9),
3rdly (as 2nd wife) Sir John Drummond, >>
John Moray, Lord Bothwell ?
Or not lord ?
Thanks
Will Johnson
In a message dated 6/21/06 5:40:29 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Therav3 writes:
<< she m. 1stly Sir John de Moravia [Murray],
2ndly Thomas, Earl of Mar (divorced bef Feb 1358/9),
3rdly (as 2nd wife) Sir John Drummond, >>
John Moray, Lord Bothwell ?
Or not lord ?
Thanks
Will Johnson
-
Kelly Leighton
correction Re: De Lovetot, De Normanville, D'Eyville connect
Researchers,
Correction to my post in that I DO NOT believe Denise was daughter of Robert
and Denise D'Eyville. As John R. had pointed out, the timeline did not fit.
I think I tried to cram too much into one post. Although I don't think much
is actually new.
I believe that Denise was the daughter of John De Lovetot's first wife
Margaret, who I believe was a daughter of Robert and Denise D'Eyville. This
is what I think is new and what I'm specifically requesting comment on (in
addition to De Lovetot material). Does anyone have any data to support or
reject this contention. I know John was comfortable with the D'Eyville
connection (again, on the force of Blore's Seal for Denise having the arms
of D'Eyville). One thing I'd like to point out is that the arms for Robert
D'Eyville don't appear to be known. We have them for his son and possibly
his grandson. This may explain the difference in numbers of Fleur De Lis.
I think the John D'Eyville connections that appear in a couple of land
dealings (The Yorkshire Archeological and Topographical Journal vol. X
c.1889 pp 258-9 accessed via googlebooks has this connection, as well as
the ) with John de Lovetot over the church of Adlingflete may be because
they were brothers-in-law.
Additionally, J. E Newman, in his article Greater and Lesser Landowners and
Parochial Patronage: Yorkshire in the Thirteenth Century in The English
Historical Review vol. 92, number 363 (Apr 1977) pg 296 footnote d states
that "[John] D'Eyville sold the church [Adlingfleet] to [Richard De] Clare
[ for 153li, 8s, 6d in 1256] with a provision that right of presentation
granted it in dower, after Richard's death, to his widow Maud. D'Eyville
claimed this invalidated the original sale, and he and Maud were engaged in
litigation over the church until 1286 when Maud withdrew. In the meantime,
D'Eyville had sold the church again to a kinsman of the Clares, John De
Lovetot, and the latter gained posession of the church (Michael Altschul, A
Baronial Family in Medieval England, The Clares, 1217-1314 (Baltimore,
1965), pp. 183-4). The Taxio of 1291 (P. 298) lists Adlingfleet as being
appropriated to the abbot of Selby, apparently by gift or sale of John De
Lovetot. Nevertheless John's widow claimed the church and in 1315, the abbot
had to pay her 50li to settle her claims (Coucher Book of Selby Abbey, ii.
[YAS, xiii], 330). For John D'Eyville, see Peerage, iv, 130-2, R.F.
Treharne, The Baronial Plan of Reform 1258-1263 (New York, 1971), pp. 140,
251, 262-3, 313, 326; Michael Prestwich, War, Politics and Finance under
Edward I (Totowa, New Jersey, 1972), pp. 24-25, 49."
The onl;y one of the references Newman used that I have is Altschul. While
it does mention the church business, it does not give any basis for Newman's
claim that John De Lovetot was kin to the Clares. I do suspect, however,
that, as I said, John De Lovetot was kin to John D'Eyville through
D'Eyville's sister Margaret.
As John had indicated, CP IV pg 131 states that Robert D'Eyvill died after
June 1242. John De Lovetot was born somewhere around 1235. Haven't seen
anything making this a hard and fast, so it is an estimate. If we say that
his wife Margaret was born around 1240, things seem to work out alright.She
names a daughter for her mother Denise (wife of Robert) and her daughter
Denise names TWO of her daughters Margaret (one in each marriage as
otherwise stated).
The timeline fits, there were obviously family ties, the Seal data fits, and
the naming patterns (admittedly two common names, Dionisia and variants much
more so in the CPR than I expected to find).
I think the prevailing wisdom is that John D'Eyville, son of Robert and
Denise was born around 1235 also (he was active in 1260 according to CP) so
1240 seems to fit.
Hope this clears up some of the confusion for those patient and dedicated
souls who haven't turned off on this thread yet.
Kelly in RI
Correction to my post in that I DO NOT believe Denise was daughter of Robert
and Denise D'Eyville. As John R. had pointed out, the timeline did not fit.
I think I tried to cram too much into one post. Although I don't think much
is actually new.
I believe that Denise was the daughter of John De Lovetot's first wife
Margaret, who I believe was a daughter of Robert and Denise D'Eyville. This
is what I think is new and what I'm specifically requesting comment on (in
addition to De Lovetot material). Does anyone have any data to support or
reject this contention. I know John was comfortable with the D'Eyville
connection (again, on the force of Blore's Seal for Denise having the arms
of D'Eyville). One thing I'd like to point out is that the arms for Robert
D'Eyville don't appear to be known. We have them for his son and possibly
his grandson. This may explain the difference in numbers of Fleur De Lis.
I think the John D'Eyville connections that appear in a couple of land
dealings (The Yorkshire Archeological and Topographical Journal vol. X
c.1889 pp 258-9 accessed via googlebooks has this connection, as well as
the ) with John de Lovetot over the church of Adlingflete may be because
they were brothers-in-law.
Additionally, J. E Newman, in his article Greater and Lesser Landowners and
Parochial Patronage: Yorkshire in the Thirteenth Century in The English
Historical Review vol. 92, number 363 (Apr 1977) pg 296 footnote d states
that "[John] D'Eyville sold the church [Adlingfleet] to [Richard De] Clare
[ for 153li, 8s, 6d in 1256] with a provision that right of presentation
granted it in dower, after Richard's death, to his widow Maud. D'Eyville
claimed this invalidated the original sale, and he and Maud were engaged in
litigation over the church until 1286 when Maud withdrew. In the meantime,
D'Eyville had sold the church again to a kinsman of the Clares, John De
Lovetot, and the latter gained posession of the church (Michael Altschul, A
Baronial Family in Medieval England, The Clares, 1217-1314 (Baltimore,
1965), pp. 183-4). The Taxio of 1291 (P. 298) lists Adlingfleet as being
appropriated to the abbot of Selby, apparently by gift or sale of John De
Lovetot. Nevertheless John's widow claimed the church and in 1315, the abbot
had to pay her 50li to settle her claims (Coucher Book of Selby Abbey, ii.
[YAS, xiii], 330). For John D'Eyville, see Peerage, iv, 130-2, R.F.
Treharne, The Baronial Plan of Reform 1258-1263 (New York, 1971), pp. 140,
251, 262-3, 313, 326; Michael Prestwich, War, Politics and Finance under
Edward I (Totowa, New Jersey, 1972), pp. 24-25, 49."
The onl;y one of the references Newman used that I have is Altschul. While
it does mention the church business, it does not give any basis for Newman's
claim that John De Lovetot was kin to the Clares. I do suspect, however,
that, as I said, John De Lovetot was kin to John D'Eyville through
D'Eyville's sister Margaret.
As John had indicated, CP IV pg 131 states that Robert D'Eyvill died after
June 1242. John De Lovetot was born somewhere around 1235. Haven't seen
anything making this a hard and fast, so it is an estimate. If we say that
his wife Margaret was born around 1240, things seem to work out alright.She
names a daughter for her mother Denise (wife of Robert) and her daughter
Denise names TWO of her daughters Margaret (one in each marriage as
otherwise stated).
The timeline fits, there were obviously family ties, the Seal data fits, and
the naming patterns (admittedly two common names, Dionisia and variants much
more so in the CPR than I expected to find).
I think the prevailing wisdom is that John D'Eyville, son of Robert and
Denise was born around 1235 also (he was active in 1260 according to CP) so
1240 seems to fit.
Hope this clears up some of the confusion for those patient and dedicated
souls who haven't turned off on this thread yet.
Kelly in RI
-
Gjest
Re: Eudes la Zouche, senior and junior: a conjecture
In a message dated 6/21/06 10:40:23 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
pajunkin@cox.net writes:
<< Syston seems to have been Ferrers property, nevertheless, descended to the
de Quincys. I would wish more documentation since Milicent has presented a
challenge in explanation of Lubbesthorpe and lands possessed by the de
Boscos. >>
Can you expand on the idea that Syston was the property of the Ferrers ?
Thanks
Will Johnson
pajunkin@cox.net writes:
<< Syston seems to have been Ferrers property, nevertheless, descended to the
de Quincys. I would wish more documentation since Milicent has presented a
challenge in explanation of Lubbesthorpe and lands possessed by the de
Boscos. >>
Can you expand on the idea that Syston was the property of the Ferrers ?
Thanks
Will Johnson
-
Kelly Leighton
Re: correction Re: De Lovetot, De Normanville, D'Eyville con
All,
I might add that while page 260 of the Archeological reference I cited also
has some De "Eyville/De Lovetot connections (and thus should have been in
the previous post), it might also add to the recent discussion regarding a
relationship between John D'Eyville and Roger De Mowbray. The source says
John D'Eyville acquired Athlingfleet from Roger De Mowbray, as I read it.
Kelly in RI
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kelly Leighton" <kleigh1@cox.net>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2006 10:21 PM
Subject: correction Re: De Lovetot, De Normanville, D'Eyville connections?
I might add that while page 260 of the Archeological reference I cited also
has some De "Eyville/De Lovetot connections (and thus should have been in
the previous post), it might also add to the recent discussion regarding a
relationship between John D'Eyville and Roger De Mowbray. The source says
John D'Eyville acquired Athlingfleet from Roger De Mowbray, as I read it.
Kelly in RI
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kelly Leighton" <kleigh1@cox.net>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2006 10:21 PM
Subject: correction Re: De Lovetot, De Normanville, D'Eyville connections?
Researchers,
Correction to my post in that I DO NOT believe Denise was daughter of
Robert
and Denise D'Eyville. As John R. had pointed out, the timeline did not
fit.
I think I tried to cram too much into one post. Although I don't think
much
is actually new.
I believe that Denise was the daughter of John De Lovetot's first wife
Margaret, who I believe was a daughter of Robert and Denise D'Eyville.
This
is what I think is new and what I'm specifically requesting comment on (in
addition to De Lovetot material). Does anyone have any data to support or
reject this contention. I know John was comfortable with the D'Eyville
connection (again, on the force of Blore's Seal for Denise having the arms
of D'Eyville). One thing I'd like to point out is that the arms for Robert
D'Eyville don't appear to be known. We have them for his son and possibly
his grandson. This may explain the difference in numbers of Fleur De Lis.
I think the John D'Eyville connections that appear in a couple of land
dealings (The Yorkshire Archeological and Topographical Journal vol. X
c.1889 pp 258-9 accessed via googlebooks has this connection, as well as
the ) with John de Lovetot over the church of Adlingflete may be because
they were brothers-in-law.
Additionally, J. E Newman, in his article Greater and Lesser Landowners
and
Parochial Patronage: Yorkshire in the Thirteenth Century in The English
Historical Review vol. 92, number 363 (Apr 1977) pg 296 footnote d states
that "[John] D'Eyville sold the church [Adlingfleet] to [Richard De] Clare
[ for 153li, 8s, 6d in 1256] with a provision that right of presentation
granted it in dower, after Richard's death, to his widow Maud. D'Eyville
claimed this invalidated the original sale, and he and Maud were engaged
in
litigation over the church until 1286 when Maud withdrew. In the meantime,
D'Eyville had sold the church again to a kinsman of the Clares, John De
Lovetot, and the latter gained posession of the church (Michael Altschul,
A
Baronial Family in Medieval England, The Clares, 1217-1314 (Baltimore,
1965), pp. 183-4). The Taxio of 1291 (P. 298) lists Adlingfleet as being
appropriated to the abbot of Selby, apparently by gift or sale of John De
Lovetot. Nevertheless John's widow claimed the church and in 1315, the
abbot
had to pay her 50li to settle her claims (Coucher Book of Selby Abbey, ii.
[YAS, xiii], 330). For John D'Eyville, see Peerage, iv, 130-2, R.F.
Treharne, The Baronial Plan of Reform 1258-1263 (New York, 1971), pp. 140,
251, 262-3, 313, 326; Michael Prestwich, War, Politics and Finance under
Edward I (Totowa, New Jersey, 1972), pp. 24-25, 49."
The onl;y one of the references Newman used that I have is Altschul. While
it does mention the church business, it does not give any basis for
Newman's
claim that John De Lovetot was kin to the Clares. I do suspect, however,
that, as I said, John De Lovetot was kin to John D'Eyville through
D'Eyville's sister Margaret.
As John had indicated, CP IV pg 131 states that Robert D'Eyvill died after
June 1242. John De Lovetot was born somewhere around 1235. Haven't seen
anything making this a hard and fast, so it is an estimate. If we say that
his wife Margaret was born around 1240, things seem to work out
alright.She
names a daughter for her mother Denise (wife of Robert) and her daughter
Denise names TWO of her daughters Margaret (one in each marriage as
otherwise stated).
The timeline fits, there were obviously family ties, the Seal data fits,
and
the naming patterns (admittedly two common names, Dionisia and variants
much
more so in the CPR than I expected to find).
I think the prevailing wisdom is that John D'Eyville, son of Robert and
Denise was born around 1235 also (he was active in 1260 according to CP)
so
1240 seems to fit.
Hope this clears up some of the confusion for those patient and dedicated
souls who haven't turned off on this thread yet.
Kelly in RI
-
Gjest
Re: John Brenchley (the Elder) possible probate date.
Bob there's at least some good news here.
I posted to OLD-ENGLISH-L and got back one helpful reply which said this
document is dated (in English)
" the xviij day of Novembr' the yere of the reigne of Kyngi Harry the sext-
xxxiij ti"
My interpretation being... the 17th day of November 33 Henry 6
so that should be 1456 I think, or maybe 1455. I'm not quite sure how those
dates work yet. Something more to learn.
So that fits in just fine with the idea that Walter, John and Robert
Brenchley were all sons of John Brenchley "the elder" and gives us a maximum date for
when John Brenchley the elder died since they are in Chancery about his will.
Will Johnson
I posted to OLD-ENGLISH-L and got back one helpful reply which said this
document is dated (in English)
" the xviij day of Novembr' the yere of the reigne of Kyngi Harry the sext-
xxxiij ti"
My interpretation being... the 17th day of November 33 Henry 6
so that should be 1456 I think, or maybe 1455. I'm not quite sure how those
dates work yet. Something more to learn.
So that fits in just fine with the idea that Walter, John and Robert
Brenchley were all sons of John Brenchley "the elder" and gives us a maximum date for
when John Brenchley the elder died since they are in Chancery about his will.
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: John Brenchley (the Elder) possible probate date.
Bob it is a will. The person who did the work is asking to remain anonymous,
but I will go ahead and post their transcription and translation and hey you
can put it up on your web site!
Will Johnson
Subj: Re: John Brenchesle senior (draft - will work on later in the week)
Date: 6/21/06 8:04:36 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: [anonymous by request]
To: WJhonson@aol.com
[About http://www.brenchley.org/Image00001.jpg] - The latin with translation
3] Hec est ultima voluntas Joh[ann]is Brenchesle seniori videl[ice]t q[uo]d
Marg[er]ia ux[or] eius post decessum eius heret om[n]ia t[er]ras & ten[ementa]
infra paroch' de Benynden' Roluend' seu alibi infra Com[itatu] Kanc' ad
t[er]minu[m] vite sue
This is the last will of John Brenchesle senior namely that Margery his wife
after his death inherits all the lands and tenements within the parish of
Benyden', Rolvend' or elsewhere within the county of Kent for the term of her life
4] - post eius decessum unu[m] ten[ementum] vocat[um] Forsham cum [omn]ib[us]
t[er]ris suis infra paroch' de Roluend' except' uno p[ra]to vocato Holmede
remaneret Walt[er]o Brenchesle fil[io] suo sibi & hered[ibus] suis
imp[er]p[etu]m It[e]m Johanni fil[io] suo
after his death one tenement called Forsham with all its lands within the
parish of Rolvend' with the exception of one meadow called Holmede which is to
remain to Walter Brenchesle his son, to him and his heirs forever Item to John
his son
5] omnia t[er]ras & ten[ementa] cum om[n]ib[us] suis p[er]tin[enciis] infra
paroch' de Benynden' except[o] uno mesuag[io] vocat[o] Mapisden Bectilte &
Trotohole sibi & here[dibus] imp[er]p[etuu]m It[e]m voluit q[uo]d Rob[er]tus
fil[ius] suus esset apprenticius
all the lands and tenements with their appurtenances within the parish of
Benyden with the exception of one messuage called Map-sden Bectilte and Trotohole
to him and his heirs forever. Item he willed that Robert his son was to be an
apprentice
6] london' & q[uo]d heret unu[m] mesuagiu[m] vocatu[m] Mapisden Rectilte in
Benynden' p[re]dict' & unu[m] p[ra]tu[m] vocatum Holwyche in Roluende-' ---
sibi hered[ibus] suis imp[er]p[etuu]m & c[er]tum reddit[um] ad sum[m]am
quinq[ue] marcar[tas]
---and that he inherits one messuage called Mapsiden Rectitle in Benyden
aforesaid and one meadow called Holwyche in Rolverdem to him and to his heirs
forever and a fixed rent to the sum of five marks
7] -e Sect' reddit' de tenentib[us] infra paroch' de Benynden' Rowlonden'
Sandhurst & Newenden' sup[er] hac responsione p[re]d[i]c[t]us Joh[ann]es
Som[er]by p[er] consider[acionem] Cur' dismiss' est de Cur' I--et' Ju-et'
within the parish of Benynden, Rowlonden, Sandhurst and Neweden upon this
response the aforesaid John Somerby for the consideration of the Court was
dismissed by the Court ------
8] --e die
-- day
but I will go ahead and post their transcription and translation and hey you
can put it up on your web site!
Will Johnson
Subj: Re: John Brenchesle senior (draft - will work on later in the week)
Date: 6/21/06 8:04:36 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: [anonymous by request]
To: WJhonson@aol.com
[About http://www.brenchley.org/Image00001.jpg] - The latin with translation
3] Hec est ultima voluntas Joh[ann]is Brenchesle seniori videl[ice]t q[uo]d
Marg[er]ia ux[or] eius post decessum eius heret om[n]ia t[er]ras & ten[ementa]
infra paroch' de Benynden' Roluend' seu alibi infra Com[itatu] Kanc' ad
t[er]minu[m] vite sue
This is the last will of John Brenchesle senior namely that Margery his wife
after his death inherits all the lands and tenements within the parish of
Benyden', Rolvend' or elsewhere within the county of Kent for the term of her life
4] - post eius decessum unu[m] ten[ementum] vocat[um] Forsham cum [omn]ib[us]
t[er]ris suis infra paroch' de Roluend' except' uno p[ra]to vocato Holmede
remaneret Walt[er]o Brenchesle fil[io] suo sibi & hered[ibus] suis
imp[er]p[etu]m It[e]m Johanni fil[io] suo
after his death one tenement called Forsham with all its lands within the
parish of Rolvend' with the exception of one meadow called Holmede which is to
remain to Walter Brenchesle his son, to him and his heirs forever Item to John
his son
5] omnia t[er]ras & ten[ementa] cum om[n]ib[us] suis p[er]tin[enciis] infra
paroch' de Benynden' except[o] uno mesuag[io] vocat[o] Mapisden Bectilte &
Trotohole sibi & here[dibus] imp[er]p[etuu]m It[e]m voluit q[uo]d Rob[er]tus
fil[ius] suus esset apprenticius
all the lands and tenements with their appurtenances within the parish of
Benyden with the exception of one messuage called Map-sden Bectilte and Trotohole
to him and his heirs forever. Item he willed that Robert his son was to be an
apprentice
6] london' & q[uo]d heret unu[m] mesuagiu[m] vocatu[m] Mapisden Rectilte in
Benynden' p[re]dict' & unu[m] p[ra]tu[m] vocatum Holwyche in Roluende-' ---
sibi hered[ibus] suis imp[er]p[etuu]m & c[er]tum reddit[um] ad sum[m]am
quinq[ue] marcar[tas]
---and that he inherits one messuage called Mapsiden Rectitle in Benyden
aforesaid and one meadow called Holwyche in Rolverdem to him and to his heirs
forever and a fixed rent to the sum of five marks
7] -e Sect' reddit' de tenentib[us] infra paroch' de Benynden' Rowlonden'
Sandhurst & Newenden' sup[er] hac responsione p[re]d[i]c[t]us Joh[ann]es
Som[er]by p[er] consider[acionem] Cur' dismiss' est de Cur' I--et' Ju-et'
within the parish of Benynden, Rowlonden, Sandhurst and Neweden upon this
response the aforesaid John Somerby for the consideration of the Court was
dismissed by the Court ------
8] --e die
-- day
-
Tim Powys-Lybbe
Re: Children of John Butler, 6th Earl of Ormond:Thoughts
In message of 22 Jun, WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
Quite right. Baronets were not invented in England until 1611.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
In a message dated 6/21/06 6:10:26 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
butlergrt@aol.com writes:
He was later made 1st Baronet was courtier-treasurer and
High Chamberlain to Cardinal Wolsely who made him a member of
Henry VIII council. Uk Archives
That he was a baronet appears to be in error. I have found a few
dozen documents where he is named, from the first in 1502 until around
his death in 1534.
He is never called a baronet. Sometime between 1502 and 1519 he was
knighted, as I have a 1519 document where he is called Knt, however
when he purchased Milton he was "Merchant, of London"
Quite right. Baronets were not invented in England until 1611.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
-
Tim Powys-Lybbe
Re: William FitzWilliam d 1534 and A2A correction
In message of 22 Jun, WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
I know DNB 1st edition has him knighted but his will, under "John Hawe,
Mercer" on Documents-On-Line does not have him knighted. Any further
evidence?
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
Anne. daughter of Sir John Hawes
I know DNB 1st edition has him knighted but his will, under "John Hawe,
Mercer" on Documents-On-Line does not have him knighted. Any further
evidence?
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
-
Ye Old One
Re: John Brenchley (the Elder) possible probate date.
On Thu, 22 Jun 2006 03:05:28 +0000 (UTC), WJhonson@aol.com enriched
this group when s/he wrote:
Mmmm. Interesting. 1454 does seem a bit late because I now have him
dying before William, most likeley in 1397. However, that date is
taken from the citation I gave the other day to his will in probate -
and I still can't find a link to that so I can order a copy.
But I do agree, it now looks certain that the three brothers are
confirmed as sons of John Brenchley the Elder. Whish is a major step
in its own right
--
Bob.
this group when s/he wrote:
Bob there's at least some good news here.
I posted to OLD-ENGLISH-L and got back one helpful reply which said this
document is dated (in English)
" the xviij day of Novembr' the yere of the reigne of Kyngi Harry the sext-
xxxiij ti"
My interpretation being... the 17th day of November 33 Henry 6
so that should be 1456 I think, or maybe 1455. I'm not quite sure how those
dates work yet. Something more to learn.
So that fits in just fine with the idea that Walter, John and Robert
Brenchley were all sons of John Brenchley "the elder" and gives us a maximum date for
when John Brenchley the elder died since they are in Chancery about his will.
Will Johnson
Mmmm. Interesting. 1454 does seem a bit late because I now have him
dying before William, most likeley in 1397. However, that date is
taken from the citation I gave the other day to his will in probate -
and I still can't find a link to that so I can order a copy.
But I do agree, it now looks certain that the three brothers are
confirmed as sons of John Brenchley the Elder. Whish is a major step
in its own right
--
Bob.
-
Ye Old One
Re: John Brenchley (the Elder) possible probate date.
On Thu, 22 Jun 2006 03:13:21 +0000 (UTC), WJhonson@aol.com enriched
this group when s/he wrote:
Wow!!! Fantastic. Pease pass on my most sincere thanks to the
translator. If there is anything I can ever so for him
--
Bob.
this group when s/he wrote:
Bob it is a will. The person who did the work is asking to remain anonymous,
but I will go ahead and post their transcription and translation and hey you
can put it up on your web site!
Will Johnson
Wow!!! Fantastic. Pease pass on my most sincere thanks to the
translator. If there is anything I can ever so for him
--
Bob.
-
Ye Old One
Re: Re: John Brenchley (the Elder) possible probate date.
On Thu, 22 Jun 2006 03:05:28 +0000 (UTC), WJhonson@aol.com enriched
this group when s/he wrote:
Forgot to say, there is a good Regnal year calculator at
http://www.albion.edu/english/calendar/regnal.htm
I find it invaluable.
--
Bob.
this group when s/he wrote:
" the xviij day of Novembr' the yere of the reigne of Kyngi Harry the sext-
xxxiij ti"
My interpretation being... the 17th day of November 33 Henry 6
so that should be 1456 I think, or maybe 1455. I'm not quite sure how those
dates work yet. Something more to learn.
Forgot to say, there is a good Regnal year calculator at
http://www.albion.edu/english/calendar/regnal.htm
I find it invaluable.
--
Bob.
-
Alex Maxwell Findlater
Re: SP Correction: Alan, earl of Menteith (d.ca. 1308) and t
He was John de Moravia, Dominus de Bothwell and many other places, also
Panetarius to the King.
His great great uncle Sir William, known as Dives for his wealth,
sighed the Ragman Roll as Willielmus de Moravia Dominus de Bothwell.
Sir John died before 1352 without issue and his brother Sir Thomas in
1361 probably of the plague in London, on an embassy. Both brothers
married heirs of earldoms and had both had issue, the Murrays would
have presented as powerful a family as earlier did the Comyns and later
the Douglases.
Panetarius to the King.
His great great uncle Sir William, known as Dives for his wealth,
sighed the Ragman Roll as Willielmus de Moravia Dominus de Bothwell.
Sir John died before 1352 without issue and his brother Sir Thomas in
1361 probably of the plague in London, on an embassy. Both brothers
married heirs of earldoms and had both had issue, the Murrays would
have presented as powerful a family as earlier did the Comyns and later
the Douglases.
-
Matt Tompkins
Re: John Brenchley (the Elder) possible probate date.
WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
Line 8 is sine die, ie 'without a day', meaning the case is adjourned
indefinitely, with no date set for the next hearing.
The last word in line 7 is quiet', and consider' here probably means
judgement or decision, so the document ends 'by the judgement of the
court was dismissed by the court quit [of all liability], without a
day.'
The opening words of line 7 seem to mean 'from the suit rent from the
tenants' , or perhaps 'the suit rendered by the tenants' (ie the 5
marks rent mentioned in the previous line issues from the suit owed by
the tenants). This is slightly odd wording, since suit was the
obligation to attend at court, not a rent or payment, but I suppose it
meant the 5 marks were to come from payments associated with that suit,
probably the profits of the court or, perhaps, from the collective
"cert" fine which the suitors paid at Views of Frankpledge (if that is
the meaning of certum reddit' in line 6). Though 5 marks would be an
unusually large cert fine.
The last word of line 6 extends to 'marcarum'.
Matt Tompkins
6] london' & q[uo]d heret unu[m] mesuagiu[m] vocatu[m] Mapisden Rectilte in
Benynden' p[re]dict' & unu[m] p[ra]tu[m] vocatum Holwyche in Roluende-' ---
sibi hered[ibus] suis imp[er]p[etuu]m & c[er]tum reddit[um] ad sum[m]am
quinq[ue] marcar[tas]
---and that he inherits one messuage called Mapsiden Rectitle in Benyden
aforesaid and one meadow called Holwyche in Rolverdem to him and to his heirs
forever and a fixed rent to the sum of five marks
7] -e Sect' reddit' de tenentib[us] infra paroch' de Benynden' Rowlonden'
Sandhurst & Newenden' sup[er] hac responsione p[re]d[i]c[t]us Joh[ann]es
Som[er]by p[er] consider[acionem] Cur' dismiss' est de Cur' I--et' Ju-et'
within the parish of Benynden, Rowlonden, Sandhurst and Neweden upon this
response the aforesaid John Somerby for the consideration of the Court was
dismissed by the Court ------
8] --e die
-- day
Line 8 is sine die, ie 'without a day', meaning the case is adjourned
indefinitely, with no date set for the next hearing.
The last word in line 7 is quiet', and consider' here probably means
judgement or decision, so the document ends 'by the judgement of the
court was dismissed by the court quit [of all liability], without a
day.'
The opening words of line 7 seem to mean 'from the suit rent from the
tenants' , or perhaps 'the suit rendered by the tenants' (ie the 5
marks rent mentioned in the previous line issues from the suit owed by
the tenants). This is slightly odd wording, since suit was the
obligation to attend at court, not a rent or payment, but I suppose it
meant the 5 marks were to come from payments associated with that suit,
probably the profits of the court or, perhaps, from the collective
"cert" fine which the suitors paid at Views of Frankpledge (if that is
the meaning of certum reddit' in line 6). Though 5 marks would be an
unusually large cert fine.
The last word of line 6 extends to 'marcarum'.
Matt Tompkins
-
Ye Old One
Re: John Brenchley (the Elder) possible probate date.
On Thu, 22 Jun 2006 14:04:52 +0000 (UTC), WJhonson@aol.com enriched
this group when s/he wrote:
Me? I'm confident of nothing - when I get confident I've got it worked
out someone always points out how very wrong I can get
However, I've a gut feeling that John was the oldest of the
John/William/Thomas brothers. Proving it is another matter.
--
Bob.
this group when s/he wrote:
In a message dated 6/22/2006 12:40:01 AM Pacific Standard Time,
usenet@mcsuk.net writes:
Mmmm. Interesting. 1454 does seem a bit late because I now have him
dying before William, most likeley in 1397. However, that date is
taken from the citation I gave the other day to his will in probate -
and I still can't find a link to that so I can order a copy.
You know I'd say that the first one with a wife Margery died in 1397, then
something *new* occurred in the 1450s that made these three guys go to court
about it. Maybe some line died out and these were the residual heirs.
The other possibility is that the 1397 is not a date? Are you and Louise
confident that it's a year and not something else?
Me? I'm confident of nothing - when I get confident I've got it worked
out someone always points out how very wrong I can get
However, I've a gut feeling that John was the oldest of the
John/William/Thomas brothers. Proving it is another matter.
--
Bob.
-
Gjest
Re: William FitzWilliam d 1534 and A2A correction
In a message dated 6/22/2006 12:15:32 AM Pacific Standard Time,
tim@powys.org writes:
I know DNB 1st edition has him knighted but his will, under "John Hawe,
Mercer" on Documents-On-Line does not have him knighted. Any further
evidence?
Tim I haven't done the Hawe (Hawes) family yet, so DNB is all I have. I
haven't tried to do anything yet to carry them back. Can you specify the date
of the will?
Thanks
Will
tim@powys.org writes:
Anne. daughter of Sir John Hawes
I know DNB 1st edition has him knighted but his will, under "John Hawe,
Mercer" on Documents-On-Line does not have him knighted. Any further
evidence?
Tim I haven't done the Hawe (Hawes) family yet, so DNB is all I have. I
haven't tried to do anything yet to carry them back. Can you specify the date
of the will?
Thanks
Will
-
Tim Powys-Lybbe
Re: William FitzWilliam d 1534 and A2A correction
In message of 22 Jun, WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
No I did not write that
I did write that.
And you wrote the previous paragraph.
Can I ask that you (a) include 'headers' (I know they aren't the real
headers) for all the people that you include with participating parts in
a discussion and (b) show the different contributions by quote marks for
each particpant using the rule of one quote mark for paragraphs of the
latest, two for the one before that and three for the one before that.
(And after that it is probably unintelligible and needs snipping
anyhow!)
The site <http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/>, which
anyone can look up, gives a date of 16th May 1516 which I would guess to
be the probate date.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
In a message dated 6/22/2006 12:15:32 AM Pacific Standard Time,
tim@powys.org writes:
Anne. daughter of Sir John Hawes
No I did not write that
I know DNB 1st edition has him knighted but his will, under "John Hawe,
Mercer" on Documents-On-Line does not have him knighted. Any further
evidence?
I did write that.
Tim I haven't done the Hawe (Hawes) family yet, so DNB is all I have.
I haven't tried to do anything yet to carry them back. Can you
specify the date of the will? Thanks Will
And you wrote the previous paragraph.
Can I ask that you (a) include 'headers' (I know they aren't the real
headers) for all the people that you include with participating parts in
a discussion and (b) show the different contributions by quote marks for
each particpant using the rule of one quote mark for paragraphs of the
latest, two for the one before that and three for the one before that.
(And after that it is probably unintelligible and needs snipping
anyhow!)
The site <http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/>, which
anyone can look up, gives a date of 16th May 1516 which I would guess to
be the probate date.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
-
Gjest
Re: John Brenchley (the Elder) possible probate date.
In a message dated 6/22/2006 12:40:01 AM Pacific Standard Time,
usenet@mcsuk.net writes:
Mmmm. Interesting. 1454 does seem a bit late because I now have him
dying before William, most likeley in 1397. However, that date is
taken from the citation I gave the other day to his will in probate -
and I still can't find a link to that so I can order a copy.
You know I'd say that the first one with a wife Margery died in 1397, then
something *new* occurred in the 1450s that made these three guys go to court
about it. Maybe some line died out and these were the residual heirs.
The other possibility is that the 1397 is not a date? Are you and Louise
confident that it's a year and not something else?
usenet@mcsuk.net writes:
Mmmm. Interesting. 1454 does seem a bit late because I now have him
dying before William, most likeley in 1397. However, that date is
taken from the citation I gave the other day to his will in probate -
and I still can't find a link to that so I can order a copy.
You know I'd say that the first one with a wife Margery died in 1397, then
something *new* occurred in the 1450s that made these three guys go to court
about it. Maybe some line died out and these were the residual heirs.
The other possibility is that the 1397 is not a date? Are you and Louise
confident that it's a year and not something else?
-
Patricia Junkin
Re: Eudes la Zouche, senior and junior: a conjecture
A2A
Berkeley Castle Muniments
Berkeley Castle Muniments
Catalogue Ref. BCM
These given extensive descriptions of the de Quincy and Ferrers lands and
inheritance. I believe William de Ferrers had the advowson of the church at
Syston but it is among these references.
Pat
----------
Berkeley Castle Muniments
Berkeley Castle Muniments
Catalogue Ref. BCM
These given extensive descriptions of the de Quincy and Ferrers lands and
inheritance. I believe William de Ferrers had the advowson of the church at
Syston but it is among these references.
Pat
----------
From: WJhonson@aol.com
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Eudes la Zouche, senior and junior: a conjecture
Date: Wed, 21, 2006, 10:42 PM
In a message dated 6/21/06 10:40:23 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
pajunkin@cox.net writes:
Syston seems to have been Ferrers property, nevertheless, descended to the
de Quincys. I would wish more documentation since Milicent has presented a
challenge in explanation of Lubbesthorpe and lands possessed by the de
Boscos.
Can you expand on the idea that Syston was the property of the Ferrers ?
Thanks
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: Complete Peerage Correction: Ancestry of Fitzwilliam fam
Actually I have to take back what I said earlier.
I didn't actually do "the FitzWilliams" what I did was the "FitzWilliams of
MILTON"
I have *every* single A2A document naming FitzWilliam and Milton now sorted
among the various actors. Hopefully correct. I still need to find some
primary proofs for when a few of them died. I'm not satisfied with using
tudorplace.ar on some of these, as that site does carry some errors.
Will
I didn't actually do "the FitzWilliams" what I did was the "FitzWilliams of
MILTON"
I have *every* single A2A document naming FitzWilliam and Milton now sorted
among the various actors. Hopefully correct. I still need to find some
primary proofs for when a few of them died. I'm not satisfied with using
tudorplace.ar on some of these, as that site does carry some errors.
Will
-
Patricia Junkin
Re: Caldecotis (Bruce-Vipont)
Alex,
1310 Helen de V.i born. Married perhaps Robert Bruce. She was the daughter
of Alan de. Vipont.
Alan Vipont had held Lochleven Castle for the Scots. The Surnames of
Scotland; George F. Black; 1993 Edn
Alan is descended from the Viponts who remained in Scotland, King David
gave to William, the progenitor, Boulton, Carriden and Langton between
1147-50. William de Bosco was witness to a charter of Ivo Vipont sometime
between 1153 and 1177.
Descendants of the Viponts were witness to deeds relating to Edenhall held
by Robert Brus of Edenhall.
I cannot verify any of the following at this time but am searching for
verification.
1)This information was copied from Florence Van Rensselaer: "The Livingston
Family in America and Its Scottish Origins", New York, 1949 pages 58-59 and
46.
Generation One
1.Sir Robert Bruce, Earl of Ross
Died on August 11, 1332 at the Battle of Dupplin.
2.Sir Robert Bruce, a natural son of King Robert the Bruce, was created
Earl of Ross by his elder half brother King David II.
3. Sir Robert Bruce, Earl of Ross, married Helen Vipont, daughter of
Captain Allan Vipont of Lochleven, and they had a son:
* Sir Robert Bruce
http://www3.sympatico.ca/robert.sewell/airth.html
2)Edward Bruce, brother of King Robert, left descendants surnamed Brucevia
an illegitimate son (the Bruces of Clackmannan traditionally trace their
descent via this line) Bruces of Clackmannan. ntaylor@fas.harvard.edu
(through 1551) are covered in *Scots Peerage. The Scots Peerage has to
say:vol. I, pp. 436-437
"[re: Edward Bruce] He is generally said to have left three illegitimate
sons, Robert, Alexander, and Thomas, who successively became Earls of
Carrick, but this is a mistake. Robert never existed, or has been confounded
with a son of King Robert of that name; Alexander did become Earl of
Carrick, as will be mentioned hereafter,but Thomas never held the title,
while it is not certain that he was a son of Edward, though there can be no
reasonable doubt that he was the progenitor of the Bruces of Clackmannan."
<smd49@*!*its.canterbury.ac.nz
Pat
----------
1310 Helen de V.i born. Married perhaps Robert Bruce. She was the daughter
of Alan de. Vipont.
Alan Vipont had held Lochleven Castle for the Scots. The Surnames of
Scotland; George F. Black; 1993 Edn
Alan is descended from the Viponts who remained in Scotland, King David
gave to William, the progenitor, Boulton, Carriden and Langton between
1147-50. William de Bosco was witness to a charter of Ivo Vipont sometime
between 1153 and 1177.
Descendants of the Viponts were witness to deeds relating to Edenhall held
by Robert Brus of Edenhall.
I cannot verify any of the following at this time but am searching for
verification.
1)This information was copied from Florence Van Rensselaer: "The Livingston
Family in America and Its Scottish Origins", New York, 1949 pages 58-59 and
46.
Generation One
1.Sir Robert Bruce, Earl of Ross
Died on August 11, 1332 at the Battle of Dupplin.
2.Sir Robert Bruce, a natural son of King Robert the Bruce, was created
Earl of Ross by his elder half brother King David II.
3. Sir Robert Bruce, Earl of Ross, married Helen Vipont, daughter of
Captain Allan Vipont of Lochleven, and they had a son:
* Sir Robert Bruce
http://www3.sympatico.ca/robert.sewell/airth.html
2)Edward Bruce, brother of King Robert, left descendants surnamed Brucevia
an illegitimate son (the Bruces of Clackmannan traditionally trace their
descent via this line) Bruces of Clackmannan. ntaylor@fas.harvard.edu
(through 1551) are covered in *Scots Peerage. The Scots Peerage has to
say:vol. I, pp. 436-437
"[re: Edward Bruce] He is generally said to have left three illegitimate
sons, Robert, Alexander, and Thomas, who successively became Earls of
Carrick, but this is a mistake. Robert never existed, or has been confounded
with a son of King Robert of that name; Alexander did become Earl of
Carrick, as will be mentioned hereafter,but Thomas never held the title,
while it is not certain that he was a son of Edward, though there can be no
reasonable doubt that he was the progenitor of the Bruces of Clackmannan."
<smd49@*!*its.canterbury.ac.nz
Pat
----------
From: "Alex Maxwell Findlater" <maxwell@findlater.org.uk
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Caldecotis
Date: Wed, 21, 2006, 2:03 AM
You'll have to fill me in about this suspected marriage.
Looking at the seals, it is obvious that the Caldicottis seal is based
on the Bruce of Annandale arms, viz, Or a saltire and chief Gules.
Many Bruce knights used these arms in some form or other, eg Boys,
Kirkpatrick, Moffat (Montalt), Johnstone, Jardine, Murray of Cockpool
(ancient), Tweedie and now Caldicote. Most of these families stayed in
the Annandale area, but Tweedie moved east to Drumelzier (mid Borders)
and Caldicote appears at Simprin in Berwickshire (very easterly).
However Caldicote of Hutton is presumably in the west given the
alliances with Craufurd and Boys. I do not know where Hutton is, but
people were often called by different estates in those days, depending
on the purpose of the deed. The most glaring example are the two
charters of Sir William Murray to Glasgow Cathedral both in 1292, one
as Panetarius, the other as Lord of Bothwell.
-
Matt Tompkins
Re: John Brenchley (the Elder) possible probate date.
Ye Old One wrote:
There is something odd about that reference. On its face it is saying
that the will of John Brenchesle sen. can be found in the Calendar of
Wills and Administrations now preserved in the Probate Registry at
Canterbury, and it gives what may be a date of 1.9.1397 (if it isn't a
reference number - though it seems not to be a PRO reference).
The calendar it refers to is presumably:
Index of wills proved in the Prerogative Court of Canterbury, and now
preserved in the principal Probate Registry, Somerset House, London.
Vol.1, 1383-1558 [Testators A - J], British Record Society Index
Library v. 10 (1893).
Unfortunately I've just had a look in that calendar and it contains no
mention of this John Brenchesle. The only Brenchley will it lists is
that of William Brynchele als. atte Lee, St Michael Crooked Lane,
London, 1402.
Matt Tompkins
County: General
Country: England
Brencheley, Brenchesle, John, sen., Benenden C. 1 9 1397
England: Canterbury - Wills and Administrations in the Probate
Registry at Canterbury, 1396-1558 and 1640-1650
Calendar of Wills and Administrations now preserved in the Probate
Registry at Canterbury, 1396-1558
Haven't been able to find it yet.
Bob.
There is something odd about that reference. On its face it is saying
that the will of John Brenchesle sen. can be found in the Calendar of
Wills and Administrations now preserved in the Probate Registry at
Canterbury, and it gives what may be a date of 1.9.1397 (if it isn't a
reference number - though it seems not to be a PRO reference).
The calendar it refers to is presumably:
Index of wills proved in the Prerogative Court of Canterbury, and now
preserved in the principal Probate Registry, Somerset House, London.
Vol.1, 1383-1558 [Testators A - J], British Record Society Index
Library v. 10 (1893).
Unfortunately I've just had a look in that calendar and it contains no
mention of this John Brenchesle. The only Brenchley will it lists is
that of William Brynchele als. atte Lee, St Michael Crooked Lane,
London, 1402.
Matt Tompkins
-
Ye Old One
Re: John Brenchley (the Elder) possible probate date.
On 22 Jun 2006 08:33:36 -0700, "Matt Tompkins" <mllt1@le.ac.uk>
enriched this group when s/he wrote:
Mmmmm. I'm fairly sure the entry came from Ancestry.co.uk but I don't
have access to be able to check it.
If I do a search for John Brenchesle it claims three hits under
"British Chancery Records, 1386-1558". (plus one entry each for Jane,
Richard, Robert, Walter and William)
Anyone with Ancestry access who can check what the entries say?
--
Bob.
enriched this group when s/he wrote:
Ye Old One wrote:
County: General
Country: England
Brencheley, Brenchesle, John, sen., Benenden C. 1 9 1397
England: Canterbury - Wills and Administrations in the Probate
Registry at Canterbury, 1396-1558 and 1640-1650
Calendar of Wills and Administrations now preserved in the Probate
Registry at Canterbury, 1396-1558
Haven't been able to find it yet.
Bob.
There is something odd about that reference. On its face it is saying
that the will of John Brenchesle sen. can be found in the Calendar of
Wills and Administrations now preserved in the Probate Registry at
Canterbury, and it gives what may be a date of 1.9.1397 (if it isn't a
reference number - though it seems not to be a PRO reference).
The calendar it refers to is presumably:
Index of wills proved in the Prerogative Court of Canterbury, and now
preserved in the principal Probate Registry, Somerset House, London.
Vol.1, 1383-1558 [Testators A - J], British Record Society Index
Library v. 10 (1893).
Unfortunately I've just had a look in that calendar and it contains no
mention of this John Brenchesle. The only Brenchley will it lists is
that of William Brynchele als. atte Lee, St Michael Crooked Lane,
London, 1402.
Matt Tompkins
Mmmmm. I'm fairly sure the entry came from Ancestry.co.uk but I don't
have access to be able to check it.
If I do a search for John Brenchesle it claims three hits under
"British Chancery Records, 1386-1558". (plus one entry each for Jane,
Richard, Robert, Walter and William)
Anyone with Ancestry access who can check what the entries say?
--
Bob.
-
Ye Old One
Re: Re: William FitzWilliam d 1534 and A2A correction
On Thu, 22 Jun 2006 16:44:14 +0000 (UTC), WJhonson@aol.com enriched
this group when s/he wrote:
Sorry to report the HTML is broken Will
--
Bob.
this group when s/he wrote:
I've extraced all the A2A documents which appear to touch on the life of
William FitzWilliam of Milton who d 1534 and posted them here
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com ... illiam.txt
For anyone so interested in reviewing them.
Will Johnson
Sorry to report the HTML is broken Will
--
Bob.
-
Alex Maxwell Findlater
Re: Caldecotis (Bruce-Vipont)
The Alexander Bruce, born after 1394, who probably married the Airth
heiress was a son of Robert Bruce of Clackmannan, whose wife is said to
be a Scrimgeour, and is later than the people you are looking at, I
think. Anyway, he was the first of Stenhouse and Airth.
There were no Bruces created Earls of Ross. The ancient Ross Earls of
Ross continued on until the title was lost in the 1400s. The Scots
Peerage says that the story about a son of King Robert I being an Earl
of Ross can be positively disproved.
The first Bruce who can be proved to be in possession of Clackmannan
was Thoams Bruce, married to Marjorie Charteris and died in 1348
leaving a son & heir Robert, still a minor.
The traditional descent for the Clackmannan Bruces is from John a
probably fourth son of Robert Bruce of Annandale the Competitor. There
was also a suggestion in the C19 that Edward Bruce, presumably the earl
of Carrick, was the father of this Thomas.
heiress was a son of Robert Bruce of Clackmannan, whose wife is said to
be a Scrimgeour, and is later than the people you are looking at, I
think. Anyway, he was the first of Stenhouse and Airth.
There were no Bruces created Earls of Ross. The ancient Ross Earls of
Ross continued on until the title was lost in the 1400s. The Scots
Peerage says that the story about a son of King Robert I being an Earl
of Ross can be positively disproved.
The first Bruce who can be proved to be in possession of Clackmannan
was Thoams Bruce, married to Marjorie Charteris and died in 1348
leaving a son & heir Robert, still a minor.
The traditional descent for the Clackmannan Bruces is from John a
probably fourth son of Robert Bruce of Annandale the Competitor. There
was also a suggestion in the C19 that Edward Bruce, presumably the earl
of Carrick, was the father of this Thomas.
-
Gjest
Re: William FitzWilliam d 1534 and A2A correction
I've extraced all the A2A documents which appear to touch on the life of
William FitzWilliam of Milton who d 1534 and posted them here
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com ... illiam.txt
For anyone so interested in reviewing them.
Will Johnson
William FitzWilliam of Milton who d 1534 and posted them here
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com ... illiam.txt
For anyone so interested in reviewing them.
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: William FitzWilliam d 1534 and A2A correction
In a message dated 6/22/06 9:55:12 AM Pacific Daylight Time, usenet@mcsuk.net
writes:
<< Sorry to report the HTML is broken Will
>>
works fine for me
are you using IE ?
writes:
<< Sorry to report the HTML is broken Will
works fine for me
are you using IE ?
-
Ye Old One
Re: William FitzWilliam d 1534 and A2A correction
On Thu, 22 Jun 2006 16:58:30 +0000 (UTC), WJhonson@aol.com enriched
this group when s/he wrote:
No way. I value the security of my computer.I'm using Firefox.
One point though you named it as a .txt file - it should be .htm to
work.
--
Bob.
this group when s/he wrote:
In a message dated 6/22/06 9:55:12 AM Pacific Daylight Time, usenet@mcsuk.net
writes:
Sorry to report the HTML is broken Will
works fine for me
are you using IE ?
No way. I value the security of my computer.I'm using Firefox.
One point though you named it as a .txt file - it should be .htm to
work.
--
Bob.
-
Ye Old One
Re: William FitzWilliam d 1534 and A2A correction
On Thu, 22 Jun 2006 19:06:58 +0000 (UTC), WJhonson@aol.com enriched
this group when s/he wrote:
It reads them exactly as it should, as a text file.
--
Bob.
this group when s/he wrote:
In a message dated 6/22/06 11:10:07 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
usenet@mcsuk.net writes:
No way. I value the security of my computer.I'm using Firefox.
One point though you named it as a .txt file - it should be .htm to
work
Bizarre! Firefox can't read text files? IE has no problem with them
It reads them exactly as it should, as a text file.
--
Bob.
-
Gjest
Re: William FitzWilliam d 1534 and A2A correction
In a message dated 6/22/06 11:10:07 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
usenet@mcsuk.net writes:
<< No way. I value the security of my computer.I'm using Firefox.
One point though you named it as a .txt file - it should be .htm to
work >>
Bizarre! Firefox can't read text files? IE has no problem with them
usenet@mcsuk.net writes:
<< No way. I value the security of my computer.I'm using Firefox.
One point though you named it as a .txt file - it should be .htm to
work >>
Bizarre! Firefox can't read text files? IE has no problem with them
-
Alex Maxwell Findlater
Re: Eudes la Zouche, senior and junior: a conjecture
Since Milicent's IPM she is styled as Milicent Montaldt and names HER heir
as William b. 1273-6 and the majority of the lands listed here were hers, is
it possible Eudo named another heir if his IPM exists?
I believe that these IPMs are based on feudal tenure and therefore the
heir was pre-determined by the rules of feudal inheritance. If there
was an entail, perhaps that might affect who was the heir. Does anyone
have direct knowledge of an entail at this period?
-
Bob Turcott
Re: Lady Godiva [fl. 1040-1080]?
Hmmm, I wonder if this Lady godiva is related to the Godiva Chocolate
company
From: MardiM2@aol.com
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Lady Godiva [fl. 1040-1080]?
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 12:43:19 EDT
_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/o ... direct/01/
company
From: MardiM2@aol.com
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Lady Godiva [fl. 1040-1080]?
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 12:43:19 EDT
David H wrote:
Going back to topic, I wonder if British science is advanced enough
to secure DNA from Lady Godiva's crypt and to create a clone. Then
we can see for ourselves if her hair can grow long enough to cover
those areas forbidden by the Quran.
Though you will never know for sure, I can say that it's quite possible.
My
own hair is five and a half feet long, and I'm five foot eight.
Mardi
_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/o ... direct/01/
-
Gjest
Re: Complete Peerage Correction: Ancestry of Fitzwilliam fam
In a message dated 6/21/06 11:15:40 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:
<< "For waging this war, he [Hugh] collected many evidences; and in 1565
he compiled a detailed genealogy, the basis of all subsequent
pedigrees. To attest the authority of this record, Hugh procured the
signature of eleven members of the house of Fitzwilliam, including the
Milton family." [Reference: Finch, Five Northamptonshire Fams.
(Northamptonshire Rec. Soc. 19) (1956): 188-189]. >>
The A2A entry which I posted the other day actually uses the word
"declarations" not signatures.
It would seem possible that, rather than simply signing, each signatory made
some sort of statement as well.
Will Johnson
royalancestry@msn.com writes:
<< "For waging this war, he [Hugh] collected many evidences; and in 1565
he compiled a detailed genealogy, the basis of all subsequent
pedigrees. To attest the authority of this record, Hugh procured the
signature of eleven members of the house of Fitzwilliam, including the
Milton family." [Reference: Finch, Five Northamptonshire Fams.
(Northamptonshire Rec. Soc. 19) (1956): 188-189]. >>
The A2A entry which I posted the other day actually uses the word
"declarations" not signatures.
It would seem possible that, rather than simply signing, each signatory made
some sort of statement as well.
Will Johnson
-
Ye Old One
Re: John Brenchley (the Elder) possible probate date.
On Thu, 22 Jun 2006 19:55:19 +0000 (UTC), fairthorne@breathe.com
enriched this group when s/he wrote:
Ok, that seems to be showing the entry I got, and as I know Richard of
Bicknor did die in 1514-5 it does point towards the John date being
1397.
Now - the big question - where the hell do we find the document?
Yes, come across ye olde Colepepers before, they lived in Brenchley
but are not of the Brenchley family.
Thanks for looking.
--
Bob.
enriched this group when s/he wrote:
Ye Old One writes:
Anyone with Ancestry access who can check what the entries say?
Ancestry gives the following for John Brenschesle (I didn't check other
spellings)
England: Canterbury - Wills and Administrations in the Probate Registry at
Canterbury, 1396-1558 and 1640-1650
Calendar of Wills and Administrations now preserved in the Probate Registry
at Canterbury, 1396-1558
Brencheley, Brenchesle, John, sen., Benenden C. 1 9 1397
Brencheley, Brenchesle, Richard, Bicknor A. 12 360 1514-5
Ok, that seems to be showing the entry I got, and as I know Richard of
Bicknor did die in 1514-5 it does point towards the John date being
1397.
Now - the big question - where the hell do we find the document?
England, Scotland, Ireland: Musgrave's Obituaries Prior to 1800, parts 1 & 2
Brenchesle, Rich. de, Archdn. Huntdn. 1337. (Neve's Fasti, 159.)
________________________________________
British Chancery Records, 1386-1558 Record
about John Brenchesle
Name: John Brenchesle
Place: Kent
Date: 1442-1450
Volume: 1
Page: 118
Bundle: 13
Name: John Brenchesle
Place: Kent
Date: 1453-1455
Volume: 1
Page: 224
Bundle: 24
Name: John Brenchesle
Place: Unknown
Date: 1449-1453
Volume: 1
Page: 197
Bundle: 19
and in a world tree
Thomas Colepeper de Brenchesle was born in Bayhill,Pembury
County,Kent,England, and died AFT 1309 in England. He was the son of John
Colepeper and Johanna.
?.
Children of ? and Thomas Colepeper de Brenchesle are:
i. Thomas Culpepper was born ABT 1262. He married Margery Bayhall ABT
1299. She was born ABT 1265.
ii. Nicholas Colepeper de Brenchesle was born ABT 1264, and died AFT
1323.
iii. Colepeper de Brenchesle.
iv. John Colepeper de Brenchesle was born ABT 1274, and died AFT 1337. He
married Joanna (?).
v. Walter Colepeper de Brenchesle was born ABT 1275, and died 1321. He
married Joane Bayhall 1300.
suspect not much help
cheers
Simon
Yes, come across ye olde Colepepers before, they lived in Brenchley
but are not of the Brenchley family.
Thanks for looking.
--
Bob.
-
Gjest
Re: Complete Peerage Correction: Ancestry of Fitzwilliam fam
In a message dated 6/21/06 11:15:40 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:
<< In the will of Lady Parr dated
20 May 1529, proved 14 Dec. 1531, she specifically states: "....and
if it that chaunce happen that all my said childerne dye, then my
cousin Sir William FitzWilliam knight to have oon hundrith
poundes...") [Reference: Nichols, Wills from Doctors' Commons
(Camden Soc. 83) (1863): 9-20]. Lady Parr is perhaps better known to
most British genealogists as the mother of Queen Katherine Parr, wife
of King Henry VIII of England. >>
Can we speculate that "Thomas Greene of Norton Davy" and Eleanor Greene (the
wife of John FitzWilliam) were siblings? Could Norton Davy and "Greene's"
Norton be the same place ?
Will
royalancestry@msn.com writes:
<< In the will of Lady Parr dated
20 May 1529, proved 14 Dec. 1531, she specifically states: "....and
if it that chaunce happen that all my said childerne dye, then my
cousin Sir William FitzWilliam knight to have oon hundrith
poundes...") [Reference: Nichols, Wills from Doctors' Commons
(Camden Soc. 83) (1863): 9-20]. Lady Parr is perhaps better known to
most British genealogists as the mother of Queen Katherine Parr, wife
of King Henry VIII of England. >>
Can we speculate that "Thomas Greene of Norton Davy" and Eleanor Greene (the
wife of John FitzWilliam) were siblings? Could Norton Davy and "Greene's"
Norton be the same place ?
Will
-
Gjest
Re: William FitzWilliam d 1534 and A2A correction
Ye Old One writes:
thanks Will
cheers
Simon
On Thu, 22 Jun 2006 16:44:14 +0000 (UTC), WJhonson@aol.com enriched
this group when s/he wrote:
I've extraced all the A2A documents which appear to touch on the life of
William FitzWilliam of Milton who d 1534 and posted them here
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com ... illiam.txt
For anyone so interested in reviewing them.
Will Johnson
works fine for me , IE and keeping .txt
thanks Will
cheers
Simon
Sorry to report the HTML is broken Will
--
Bob.
-
Gjest
Re: John Brenchley (the Elder) possible probate date.
Ye Old One writes:
Ancestry gives the following for John Brenschesle (I didn't check other
spellings)
England: Canterbury - Wills and Administrations in the Probate Registry at
Canterbury, 1396-1558 and 1640-1650
Calendar of Wills and Administrations now preserved in the Probate Registry
at Canterbury, 1396-1558
Brencheley, Brenchesle, John, sen., Benenden C. 1 9 1397
Brencheley, Brenchesle, Richard, Bicknor A. 12 360 1514-5
England, Scotland, Ireland: Musgrave's Obituaries Prior to 1800, parts 1 & 2
Brenchesle, Rich. de, Archdn. Huntdn. 1337. (Neve's Fasti, 159.)
________________________________________
British Chancery Records, 1386-1558 Record
about John Brenchesle
Name: John Brenchesle
Place: Kent
Date: 1442-1450
Volume: 1
Page: 118
Bundle: 13
Name: John Brenchesle
Place: Kent
Date: 1453-1455
Volume: 1
Page: 224
Bundle: 24
Name: John Brenchesle
Place: Unknown
Date: 1449-1453
Volume: 1
Page: 197
Bundle: 19
and in a world tree
Thomas Colepeper de Brenchesle was born in Bayhill,Pembury
County,Kent,England, and died AFT 1309 in England. He was the son of John
Colepeper and Johanna.
?.
Children of ? and Thomas Colepeper de Brenchesle are:
i. Thomas Culpepper was born ABT 1262. He married Margery Bayhall ABT
1299. She was born ABT 1265.
ii. Nicholas Colepeper de Brenchesle was born ABT 1264, and died AFT
1323.
iii. Colepeper de Brenchesle.
iv. John Colepeper de Brenchesle was born ABT 1274, and died AFT 1337. He
married Joanna (?).
v. Walter Colepeper de Brenchesle was born ABT 1275, and died 1321. He
married Joane Bayhall 1300.
suspect not much help
cheers
Simon
Anyone with Ancestry access who can check what the entries say?
Ancestry gives the following for John Brenschesle (I didn't check other
spellings)
England: Canterbury - Wills and Administrations in the Probate Registry at
Canterbury, 1396-1558 and 1640-1650
Calendar of Wills and Administrations now preserved in the Probate Registry
at Canterbury, 1396-1558
Brencheley, Brenchesle, John, sen., Benenden C. 1 9 1397
Brencheley, Brenchesle, Richard, Bicknor A. 12 360 1514-5
England, Scotland, Ireland: Musgrave's Obituaries Prior to 1800, parts 1 & 2
Brenchesle, Rich. de, Archdn. Huntdn. 1337. (Neve's Fasti, 159.)
________________________________________
British Chancery Records, 1386-1558 Record
about John Brenchesle
Name: John Brenchesle
Place: Kent
Date: 1442-1450
Volume: 1
Page: 118
Bundle: 13
Name: John Brenchesle
Place: Kent
Date: 1453-1455
Volume: 1
Page: 224
Bundle: 24
Name: John Brenchesle
Place: Unknown
Date: 1449-1453
Volume: 1
Page: 197
Bundle: 19
and in a world tree
Thomas Colepeper de Brenchesle was born in Bayhill,Pembury
County,Kent,England, and died AFT 1309 in England. He was the son of John
Colepeper and Johanna.
?.
Children of ? and Thomas Colepeper de Brenchesle are:
i. Thomas Culpepper was born ABT 1262. He married Margery Bayhall ABT
1299. She was born ABT 1265.
ii. Nicholas Colepeper de Brenchesle was born ABT 1264, and died AFT
1323.
iii. Colepeper de Brenchesle.
iv. John Colepeper de Brenchesle was born ABT 1274, and died AFT 1337. He
married Joanna (?).
v. Walter Colepeper de Brenchesle was born ABT 1275, and died 1321. He
married Joane Bayhall 1300.
suspect not much help
cheers
Simon
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: Green's Norton and Norton Davy
Dear Will ~
I believe this arrangement of the Greene family is correct. Lady Maud
(Greene) Parr evidently knew Sir William Fitzwilliam quite well, as
they both derived from the same parish, Green's Norton,
Northamptonshire. I suspect that Sir William's father, John
Fitzwilliam, served as steward or bailiff for his kinsmen, the various
Thomas Greenes of Green's Norton. If so, it would explain John
Fitzwilliam's residence in that parish.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www. royalancestry. net
WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
I believe this arrangement of the Greene family is correct. Lady Maud
(Greene) Parr evidently knew Sir William Fitzwilliam quite well, as
they both derived from the same parish, Green's Norton,
Northamptonshire. I suspect that Sir William's father, John
Fitzwilliam, served as steward or bailiff for his kinsmen, the various
Thomas Greenes of Green's Norton. If so, it would explain John
Fitzwilliam's residence in that parish.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www. royalancestry. net
WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
Thanks Alex for that note!
Douglas had speculated that the connection between Maud (Greene) Parr
(1493-1532) and William FitzWilliam (d 1534) must be through the Greene family and I
had suggested that perhaps Eleanor Greene, grandmother of William was a
sibling to Thomas gggrandfather of Maud.
The chronology however is touchy. And Alex's recent note that in 1355 Sir
Henry Greene AND his son Thomas had a license to purchase, made me realize there
must be another Thomas and Henry.
So now my speculation is that the connection on the Greene line would be
Sir Henry Greene
1) Thomas Greene of Green's Norton
1.1) Thomas Greene of Green's Norton d 1417
1.1.1) Thomas Greene 1400 - 18 Jan 1462
1.1.1.1) Thomas Greene d 9 Sep 1462
1.1.1.1.1) Thomas Greene of Green's Norton d 9 Nov 1506
1.1.1.1.1.1) Maud Greene m Parr
2) Henry Greene of Drayton d 2 sep 1399
2.1) Eleanor Greene d 1420/2
2.1.1) John FitzWilliam "junior" m Ellen Villiers
2.1.1.1) William FitzWilliam d 8 Sep 1534
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: Green's Norton and Norton Davy
Thanks Alex for that note!
Douglas had speculated that the connection between Maud (Greene) Parr
(1493-1532) and William FitzWilliam (d 1534) must be through the Greene family and I
had suggested that perhaps Eleanor Greene, grandmother of William was a
sibling to Thomas gggrandfather of Maud.
The chronology however is touchy. And Alex's recent note that in 1355 Sir
Henry Greene AND his son Thomas had a license to purchase, made me realize there
must be another Thomas and Henry.
So now my speculation is that the connection on the Greene line would be
Sir Henry Greene
1) Thomas Greene of Green's Norton
1.1) Thomas Greene of Green's Norton d 1417
1.1.1) Thomas Greene 1400 - 18 Jan 1462
1.1.1.1) Thomas Greene d 9 Sep 1462
1.1.1.1.1) Thomas Greene of Green's Norton d 9 Nov 1506
1.1.1.1.1.1) Maud Greene m Parr
2) Henry Greene of Drayton d 2 sep 1399
2.1) Eleanor Greene d 1420/2
2.1.1) John FitzWilliam "junior" m Ellen Villiers
2.1.1.1) William FitzWilliam d 8 Sep 1534
Will Johnson
Douglas had speculated that the connection between Maud (Greene) Parr
(1493-1532) and William FitzWilliam (d 1534) must be through the Greene family and I
had suggested that perhaps Eleanor Greene, grandmother of William was a
sibling to Thomas gggrandfather of Maud.
The chronology however is touchy. And Alex's recent note that in 1355 Sir
Henry Greene AND his son Thomas had a license to purchase, made me realize there
must be another Thomas and Henry.
So now my speculation is that the connection on the Greene line would be
Sir Henry Greene
1) Thomas Greene of Green's Norton
1.1) Thomas Greene of Green's Norton d 1417
1.1.1) Thomas Greene 1400 - 18 Jan 1462
1.1.1.1) Thomas Greene d 9 Sep 1462
1.1.1.1.1) Thomas Greene of Green's Norton d 9 Nov 1506
1.1.1.1.1.1) Maud Greene m Parr
2) Henry Greene of Drayton d 2 sep 1399
2.1) Eleanor Greene d 1420/2
2.1.1) John FitzWilliam "junior" m Ellen Villiers
2.1.1.1) William FitzWilliam d 8 Sep 1534
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: A Strangeness: Death(s) of John Butler, 6th E of Ormonde
In a message dated 6/22/06 2:25:11 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:
<< My research indicates that Thomas was a legatee in the 1435 will of his
maternal grandmother, Joan de Beauchamp, Lady Bergavenny [Reference:
Reg. of Henry Chichele, 2 (Canterbury & York Soc. 42) (1937):
534-539]. Thomas married his first wife, Anne Hankford, before 11
July 1445.
So, Thomas Butler was definitely of age at the time of the Battle of
Towton in 1461. >>
Perhaps also definitive is that Joan de Beauchamp his mother died "abt 3 Aug
1430"
My source is
Living Descendents of Blood Royal, Vol 2, "Whitehead", pg 805-808
Count d'Angerville; World Nobility, London. 1962
HIS source appear to be CP X 119-121 although the citation is not specified
on this exact person, but rather on the predecessor in this line. And he does
not cite "(Ibid)" just a blank, so I'm not sure.
Will Johnson
royalancestry@msn.com writes:
<< My research indicates that Thomas was a legatee in the 1435 will of his
maternal grandmother, Joan de Beauchamp, Lady Bergavenny [Reference:
Reg. of Henry Chichele, 2 (Canterbury & York Soc. 42) (1937):
534-539]. Thomas married his first wife, Anne Hankford, before 11
July 1445.
So, Thomas Butler was definitely of age at the time of the Battle of
Towton in 1461. >>
Perhaps also definitive is that Joan de Beauchamp his mother died "abt 3 Aug
1430"
My source is
Living Descendents of Blood Royal, Vol 2, "Whitehead", pg 805-808
Count d'Angerville; World Nobility, London. 1962
HIS source appear to be CP X 119-121 although the citation is not specified
on this exact person, but rather on the predecessor in this line. And he does
not cite "(Ibid)" just a blank, so I'm not sure.
Will Johnson
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: Complete Peerage Correction: Ancestry of Fitzwilliam fam
WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
< In a message dated 6/22/06 4:10:33 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
< royalancestry@msn.com writes:
<
< << Jane, late the wife of William Fytzwilliam, knight, formerly of
Edward
< Grevyll, knight, and before that of Thomas Dynham, knight.:
Petitions
< to examine Anthony Babyngton, knight, and others as to title to the
< manor of Ethorpe in Waddesdon (Etheropp).: Buckingham. >>
<
< COULD this be Edward Greville of Milcote ? He made a will 21 June
1528 proved 1 Oct
< 1529 and those dates could fit a second husband for Joan Ormonde....
Dear Will ~
It's almost certainly the right man. I only show one marriage for him
to Anne Denton. If he left a wife, Jane (or Joan), it should be stated
in his will proved in the PCC.
DR
< In a message dated 6/22/06 4:10:33 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
< royalancestry@msn.com writes:
<
< << Jane, late the wife of William Fytzwilliam, knight, formerly of
Edward
< Grevyll, knight, and before that of Thomas Dynham, knight.:
Petitions
< to examine Anthony Babyngton, knight, and others as to title to the
< manor of Ethorpe in Waddesdon (Etheropp).: Buckingham. >>
<
< COULD this be Edward Greville of Milcote ? He made a will 21 June
1528 proved 1 Oct
< 1529 and those dates could fit a second husband for Joan Ormonde....
Dear Will ~
It's almost certainly the right man. I only show one marriage for him
to Anne Denton. If he left a wife, Jane (or Joan), it should be stated
in his will proved in the PCC.
DR
-
Gjest
Re: Complete Peerage Correction: Ancestry of Fitzwilliam fam
In a message dated 6/22/06 4:10:33 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:
<< Jane, late the wife of William Fytzwilliam, knight, formerly of Edward
Grevyll, knight, and before that of Thomas Dynham, knight.: Petitions
to examine Anthony Babyngton, knight, and others as to title to the
manor of Ethorpe in Waddesdon (Etheropp).: Buckingham. >>
COULD this be Edward Greville of Milcote ?
He made a will 21 June 1528 proved 1 Oct 1529
and those dates could fit a second husband for Joan Ormonde....
Will
royalancestry@msn.com writes:
<< Jane, late the wife of William Fytzwilliam, knight, formerly of Edward
Grevyll, knight, and before that of Thomas Dynham, knight.: Petitions
to examine Anthony Babyngton, knight, and others as to title to the
manor of Ethorpe in Waddesdon (Etheropp).: Buckingham. >>
COULD this be Edward Greville of Milcote ?
He made a will 21 June 1528 proved 1 Oct 1529
and those dates could fit a second husband for Joan Ormonde....
Will
-
Gjest
Re: Cave of Stanford
Dear Will,
Susannah Cave, daugter of Sir Thomas Cave and Elizabeth Danvers, married Sir
John Bowes of Elford (Source: various Bowes and Heveningham pedigrees, of
which I can give further info on) and their daughter Elizabeth Cave is said to
have married Sir Humphrey Stafford of Bletherwick (Source : Burkes Peerage,
1880).
I also have details of the issue of Susannah Cave and Sir John Bowes, of
whom I am a descendant.
Hope this is of help.
Kind regards,
Rose
Epsom Downs/UK
Susannah Cave, daugter of Sir Thomas Cave and Elizabeth Danvers, married Sir
John Bowes of Elford (Source: various Bowes and Heveningham pedigrees, of
which I can give further info on) and their daughter Elizabeth Cave is said to
have married Sir Humphrey Stafford of Bletherwick (Source : Burkes Peerage,
1880).
I also have details of the issue of Susannah Cave and Sir John Bowes, of
whom I am a descendant.
Hope this is of help.
Kind regards,
Rose
Epsom Downs/UK
-
Gjest
Re: Cave of Stanford
Dear Will,
Also from Burkes Peerage, 1880 edition . . .
Issue of Sir Thomas Cave and Elizabeth Danvers :
Son, Sir Roger Cave married Margaret Cecil sister of Lord Burghley
Dau. Amicia Cave married John Hunt of Lindon, Rutland
Dau. Mary Cave married William Skeffington of Skeffington
Dau. Margaret Cave married Sir William Meringe of Nottinghamshire
Dau. Alice Cave married John Skeffington, esq., of Stafford
Of course, I cannot confirm any of the above source but the earlier editions
of Burkes are supposed to have been much more accurate than the later ones.
I only have details of seven of their issue so I would like to see details
of the other three, if you have them.
Rose
Epsom Downs/UK
Also from Burkes Peerage, 1880 edition . . .
Issue of Sir Thomas Cave and Elizabeth Danvers :
Son, Sir Roger Cave married Margaret Cecil sister of Lord Burghley
Dau. Amicia Cave married John Hunt of Lindon, Rutland
Dau. Mary Cave married William Skeffington of Skeffington
Dau. Margaret Cave married Sir William Meringe of Nottinghamshire
Dau. Alice Cave married John Skeffington, esq., of Stafford
Of course, I cannot confirm any of the above source but the earlier editions
of Burkes are supposed to have been much more accurate than the later ones.
I only have details of seven of their issue so I would like to see details
of the other three, if you have them.
Rose
Epsom Downs/UK
-
Gjest
Re: Cave of Stanford
Burke's lifted the list of children and their spouses from the Visitations
of Oxford
I have that list, ten children, with their spouses, and where their spouses
where "of". What I'm looking for, before I start looking into the records
and doing a long tedious search .... is if anyone can identify the parents *of*
those spouses.
That way I can connect them with the rest of their families.
Thanks
Will Johnson
of Oxford
I have that list, ten children, with their spouses, and where their spouses
where "of". What I'm looking for, before I start looking into the records
and doing a long tedious search .... is if anyone can identify the parents *of*
those spouses.
That way I can connect them with the rest of their families.
Thanks
Will Johnson
-
Tim Powys-Lybbe
Re: Cave of Stanford
In message of 23 Jun, WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In the British Library they have there some of the correspondence
between Burke and the punters for one of his volumes, of around 1840-50.
I have examined this correspondence. In it Burke asked the punters to
give him information about their families and specifically to let him
have sight of any pedigree they owned; there was no sign of Burke doing
any research himself, though at that time the Harleian Society had not
started to publish its visitation books.
To the best of my knowledge the modern-day Burke organisation still
follows the same practice: they rely on the families concerned to check
the entries and to provide the information.
Burke's skill was and remains the mellifluous prose that makes it all
sound so important.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
Burke's lifted the list of children and their spouses from the
Visitations of Oxford
In the British Library they have there some of the correspondence
between Burke and the punters for one of his volumes, of around 1840-50.
I have examined this correspondence. In it Burke asked the punters to
give him information about their families and specifically to let him
have sight of any pedigree they owned; there was no sign of Burke doing
any research himself, though at that time the Harleian Society had not
started to publish its visitation books.
To the best of my knowledge the modern-day Burke organisation still
follows the same practice: they rely on the families concerned to check
the entries and to provide the information.
Burke's skill was and remains the mellifluous prose that makes it all
sound so important.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
-
Gjest
Re: Cave of Stanford
Will,
Yes, I can give you the pedigree of the parents of Sir John Bowes husband of
Susannah Cave. Let me know if you are interested.
Rose
Epsom Downs/UK
Yes, I can give you the pedigree of the parents of Sir John Bowes husband of
Susannah Cave. Let me know if you are interested.
Rose
Epsom Downs/UK
-
Gjest
Re: Cave of Stanford
In a message dated 6/23/2006 9:19:41 AM Pacific Standard Time,
Maytree4@aol.com writes:
Yes, I can give you the pedigree of the parents of Sir John Bowes husband
of
Susannah Cave. Let me know if you are interested.
yes please
Maytree4@aol.com writes:
Yes, I can give you the pedigree of the parents of Sir John Bowes husband
of
Susannah Cave. Let me know if you are interested.
yes please
-
Gjest
Re: Edward Greville's brother-in-law, Sir Edmund Tame
Douglas great post.
This new find that Joan Ormonde, widow of Sir Thomas Dinham of Eythorpe,
Bucks (d 1519), married secondly Sir Edward Greville of Milcote (d 1529)
Is just simply amazing. I'm [evidently almost] speechless.
This will have a significant effect on my own research as Sir Edward Greville
had a Cecil Number of 9 previously and now has a 6.
Suddenly two hundred or more people are brought into my sights by this.
Will Johnson
This new find that Joan Ormonde, widow of Sir Thomas Dinham of Eythorpe,
Bucks (d 1519), married secondly Sir Edward Greville of Milcote (d 1529)
Is just simply amazing. I'm [evidently almost] speechless.
This will have a significant effect on my own research as Sir Edward Greville
had a Cecil Number of 9 previously and now has a 6.
Suddenly two hundred or more people are brought into my sights by this.
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: Edward Greville's brother-in-law, Sir Edmund Tame
In a message dated 6/23/06 8:14:17 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:
<< [by document dated 1 October 1442] .... Grandborough, Calcutt,
Birdingbury & Rawdon were to descend
to Thomas Stafford, one of the sons of Humphrey, at age 18, with successive
remainders in default of male issue to his other sons Humphrey, Ralph,
Richard and John; Leamington [Hastings], Burton, Hopsford[Hall] and Broadwell were
to pass to Humphrey at 21 with similar remainders to the other sons. Thomas
and Richard predeceased their father; Ralph and John died without issue and
all the estates passed therefore to Humphrey, father of Sir Humphrey (subject
of the
IPM) to whom they in turn descended. >>
But this would mean that Sir William Stafford d 18 Jun 1450 m Katherine
Chidiock is not a son of Humphrey Stafford of Grafton and Alianor Aylesbury...
wouldn't it ?
Thanks
Will Johnson
royalancestry@msn.com writes:
<< [by document dated 1 October 1442] .... Grandborough, Calcutt,
Birdingbury & Rawdon were to descend
to Thomas Stafford, one of the sons of Humphrey, at age 18, with successive
remainders in default of male issue to his other sons Humphrey, Ralph,
Richard and John; Leamington [Hastings], Burton, Hopsford[Hall] and Broadwell were
to pass to Humphrey at 21 with similar remainders to the other sons. Thomas
and Richard predeceased their father; Ralph and John died without issue and
all the estates passed therefore to Humphrey, father of Sir Humphrey (subject
of the
IPM) to whom they in turn descended. >>
But this would mean that Sir William Stafford d 18 Jun 1450 m Katherine
Chidiock is not a son of Humphrey Stafford of Grafton and Alianor Aylesbury...
wouldn't it ?
Thanks
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: Edward Greville's brother-in-law, Sir Edmund Tame
I find at
http://content.ancestry.com/browse/book ... GenMono003
452-00165-1&desc=Edmund+Tame
that Edmund Tame was a witness at the marriage of Anne Stradling to John
Danvers in 1487
Memorials of the Danvers family (of Dauntsey and Culworth) : their ancestors
and descendants from the conquest till the termina
Author: Macnamara, F. N. Date of Publication: 1895
page 265
Will Johnson
http://content.ancestry.com/browse/book ... GenMono003
452-00165-1&desc=Edmund+Tame
that Edmund Tame was a witness at the marriage of Anne Stradling to John
Danvers in 1487
Memorials of the Danvers family (of Dauntsey and Culworth) : their ancestors
and descendants from the conquest till the termina
Author: Macnamara, F. N. Date of Publication: 1895
page 265
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: Edward Greville's brother-in-law, Sir Edmund Tame
I find at
http://content.ancestry.com/Browse/Book ... GenMono005
352-00147-1
The Ligon family and connections
Author: Ligon, William D. Date of Publication: 1947
page 245
that John Tame purchased Fairford from the crown in 1498, and obit 1500
his wife Alice obit 1471 both having memorial in St Mary's, Fairford
This work states, it was "his *grandson* Edmund who succeeded to the manor,
and who, left three sisters and coheirs.
BUT Fairford was held in jointure by Catherine, his relict, twice married
after his decease, to Sir Walter Buckler, knight who procured from Queen
Elizabeth a father [farther?] confirmation of the demesnes; and lastly to Roger Lygon,
Esq"
END OF QUOTE
This Katherine which this work called "Dennys, dau of William Dennys esq of
Pucklechurch" has some sort of memorial in this church "erected in 1590" to
herself and her last husband Roger Lygon, Esq
I'm not clear reading this, exactly when they died, but apparently it was
before 1590 at least.
Does any of that help us figure out the exact nature of how this Edmund or
perhaps his father or uncle was "brother-in-law" to Edward Greville ?
Will Johnson
http://content.ancestry.com/Browse/Book ... GenMono005
352-00147-1
The Ligon family and connections
Author: Ligon, William D. Date of Publication: 1947
page 245
that John Tame purchased Fairford from the crown in 1498, and obit 1500
his wife Alice obit 1471 both having memorial in St Mary's, Fairford
This work states, it was "his *grandson* Edmund who succeeded to the manor,
and who, left three sisters and coheirs.
BUT Fairford was held in jointure by Catherine, his relict, twice married
after his decease, to Sir Walter Buckler, knight who procured from Queen
Elizabeth a father [farther?] confirmation of the demesnes; and lastly to Roger Lygon,
Esq"
END OF QUOTE
This Katherine which this work called "Dennys, dau of William Dennys esq of
Pucklechurch" has some sort of memorial in this church "erected in 1590" to
herself and her last husband Roger Lygon, Esq
I'm not clear reading this, exactly when they died, but apparently it was
before 1590 at least.
Does any of that help us figure out the exact nature of how this Edmund or
perhaps his father or uncle was "brother-in-law" to Edward Greville ?
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: Cave of Stanford
Below I present the ten children of Thomas Cave and his wife Elizabeth
Danvers.
This is the list from which I'm intending to link each spouse to his or
her parents if possible.
I have copied it exactly as I found it, only formatting the children by
adding numerals and carriage returns in various places.
Will Johnson
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Turner, William Henry. The Publications of the Harleian Society Volume 5: The
Visitation of the County of Oxford Take in the Years 1566 By William Harvey,
Clarencieux; 1574 By Richard Lee, Portcullis; and in 1634 By John Philpott,
Somerset, and William Ryley, Bluemantle Together with The Gatherings of
Oxfordshire, Collected by Richard Lee in 1574. London, England: Taylor & Co., 1871.
online here
http://content.ancestry.com/iexec/?htx= ... Oxfrd-1566
-OXFRD0169&rc=673,1017,809,1049;836,1016,921,1049;785,1781,922,1813;940,1781,1
026,1813&fn=thomas&ln=cave&pid=170
"Richard Cave, of Stanford, Com Northamp. son'e and heire to Thomas maried
to his 2nd wife, Margaret, Daugh to ... Saxtye, and by her had issue Sr
Thomas Cave, Knt. eldest son'e; Ffraunces, 2d son'e; Anthony, 3d son'e; Sr Ambrose
Cave, Kt 4th son'e; Bryand, 5th son'e; by his 2nd wife.
"Sr Thom Cave, of Stanford, Kt. eldest son'e by his 2nd wife, maried
Elizab. one of ye Daugh & heirs of John Danvers, of Waterstocke, Com Oxon. Esquir,
son'e of Sr Will. Danvers, Kt & of Anne his wife, Daugh & heire of Sr Will.
Purye, of Chamberhowse, Com. Barks. Kt which Sr Will was ye son'e of John
Danvers of Cothrope, Com. Oxon. Esqr. which
"Thom. Cave & Elizab. his wife had issue
1) Rich. Cave, his eldest son'e, who had issue one daugh. maried to Edw.
Gates, son'e & heire to Sr Hen. Gates, of Semar, com. Ebor., Knt.;
2) Roger Cave, 2nd son'e;
3) Edw. 3rd son'e;
4) Anne, maried to John Hunt, of Lyndon, com. Rutland, Gent;
5) Mary, maried to Will. Skefington, of Skefington, Com Leicest. Esqr;
6) Margaret, maried to Sr Will Mering, of Mering, Com Nott Kt;
7) Elizab. maried to Sr Humfrey Stafford of Bladerwike, Com Northamp Kt;
Margery, maried to John Ffarnham of Quarne, com Leicestr gent;
9) Alice maried to John Skevington of Ffysherwyke, Com Staff Gent;
10) Susan, maried to John Bawes, of Olford, Com Staff Gent (Wood.)
Edward Cave, of Waterstocke, in the Countye of Oxford, Esqr, third son'e
to Sr Thomas Cave, maryed Elizabeth, Daughtr to Sr John Conwaye, of Arrowe, in
the Countye of Warwick, knight, and had yssue Ffoulk, his sonne and heire
apparaunt.
Danvers.
This is the list from which I'm intending to link each spouse to his or
her parents if possible.
I have copied it exactly as I found it, only formatting the children by
adding numerals and carriage returns in various places.
Will Johnson
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Turner, William Henry. The Publications of the Harleian Society Volume 5: The
Visitation of the County of Oxford Take in the Years 1566 By William Harvey,
Clarencieux; 1574 By Richard Lee, Portcullis; and in 1634 By John Philpott,
Somerset, and William Ryley, Bluemantle Together with The Gatherings of
Oxfordshire, Collected by Richard Lee in 1574. London, England: Taylor & Co., 1871.
online here
http://content.ancestry.com/iexec/?htx= ... Oxfrd-1566
-OXFRD0169&rc=673,1017,809,1049;836,1016,921,1049;785,1781,922,1813;940,1781,1
026,1813&fn=thomas&ln=cave&pid=170
"Richard Cave, of Stanford, Com Northamp. son'e and heire to Thomas maried
to his 2nd wife, Margaret, Daugh to ... Saxtye, and by her had issue Sr
Thomas Cave, Knt. eldest son'e; Ffraunces, 2d son'e; Anthony, 3d son'e; Sr Ambrose
Cave, Kt 4th son'e; Bryand, 5th son'e; by his 2nd wife.
"Sr Thom Cave, of Stanford, Kt. eldest son'e by his 2nd wife, maried
Elizab. one of ye Daugh & heirs of John Danvers, of Waterstocke, Com Oxon. Esquir,
son'e of Sr Will. Danvers, Kt & of Anne his wife, Daugh & heire of Sr Will.
Purye, of Chamberhowse, Com. Barks. Kt which Sr Will was ye son'e of John
Danvers of Cothrope, Com. Oxon. Esqr. which
"Thom. Cave & Elizab. his wife had issue
1) Rich. Cave, his eldest son'e, who had issue one daugh. maried to Edw.
Gates, son'e & heire to Sr Hen. Gates, of Semar, com. Ebor., Knt.;
2) Roger Cave, 2nd son'e;
3) Edw. 3rd son'e;
4) Anne, maried to John Hunt, of Lyndon, com. Rutland, Gent;
5) Mary, maried to Will. Skefington, of Skefington, Com Leicest. Esqr;
6) Margaret, maried to Sr Will Mering, of Mering, Com Nott Kt;
7) Elizab. maried to Sr Humfrey Stafford of Bladerwike, Com Northamp Kt;
9) Alice maried to John Skevington of Ffysherwyke, Com Staff Gent;
10) Susan, maried to John Bawes, of Olford, Com Staff Gent (Wood.)
Edward Cave, of Waterstocke, in the Countye of Oxford, Esqr, third son'e
to Sr Thomas Cave, maryed Elizabeth, Daughtr to Sr John Conwaye, of Arrowe, in
the Countye of Warwick, knight, and had yssue Ffoulk, his sonne and heire
apparaunt.
-
John P. Ravilious
Re: Question Regarding Wife of Madog ap Gruffudd Maelawr (d.
Dear Todd,
Thanks for your post, and the details from Seebohm.
It is certainly possibly that Madog ap Gruffydd (d. 1236) was
married twice. I have his wife as a daughter (unnamed) of William de
Braose (d. 1211) and Maud de St. Valery, based in part on Janet
Meisel's documentation identifying Madog's daughter Angharad as a niece
of Walter de Lacy (d. bef 24 Feb 1240/1), Lord of Meath:
' There are two surviving letters from this period, one from Fulk
[FitzWarin] and one from Walter de Lacy, asking the justiciar,
Hubert de Burgh, to forward the marriage of Fulk's son and the
daughter of Madoc ap Griffin, the prince of South Wales....
Walter began by asking Hubert to expedite the marriage of his
niece, Angareth ( Walter's wife and Madoc's wife were sisters),
and Fulk, son of Fulk Fitz Warin - a marriage which Llewellyn
was trying to prevent.' [Meisel, Barons of the Welsh Frontier, p. 43]
If Ysota/Isolde can be identified as this daughter, that would be
a nice fit.
Cheers,
John
ToddWhitesides@aol.com wrote:
Thanks for your post, and the details from Seebohm.
It is certainly possibly that Madog ap Gruffydd (d. 1236) was
married twice. I have his wife as a daughter (unnamed) of William de
Braose (d. 1211) and Maud de St. Valery, based in part on Janet
Meisel's documentation identifying Madog's daughter Angharad as a niece
of Walter de Lacy (d. bef 24 Feb 1240/1), Lord of Meath:
' There are two surviving letters from this period, one from Fulk
[FitzWarin] and one from Walter de Lacy, asking the justiciar,
Hubert de Burgh, to forward the marriage of Fulk's son and the
daughter of Madoc ap Griffin, the prince of South Wales....
Walter began by asking Hubert to expedite the marriage of his
niece, Angareth ( Walter's wife and Madoc's wife were sisters),
and Fulk, son of Fulk Fitz Warin - a marriage which Llewellyn
was trying to prevent.' [Meisel, Barons of the Welsh Frontier, p. 43]
If Ysota/Isolde can be identified as this daughter, that would be
a nice fit.
Cheers,
John
ToddWhitesides@aol.com wrote:
_RootsWeb: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L Re: Question Regarding Wife of Madog ap Gruffudd
Maelawr (d. 1236) of Powys Fadog_
(http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GE ... 1149434088)
Carl~
Both J.Y.W. LLoyd in his work The History of the Princes...of Powys Fadog
(1881) [vol. I, p. 162] and Frederic Seebohm in his work The Tribal System in
Wales (1904) [pp. 151-152, A105] contradict Bartrum's later work by stating
Madog's wife was Isotta ferch Ithel. Seebohm in his Appendix D [pp. A101-A105]
provides documentation to support this lady's given name as Ysota, a variant
of Isolde. On those pages he reproduced in full the 1270 IPM concerning the
lands of Griffini fil Madocii de Brumfeld [Chancery Inquisition post Mortem,
5 Edw. I., No. 78, PRO], and this document clearly identifies Gruffudd ap
Madog's mother as Lady Isotta, "dna Ysota." Neither of these sources (Lloyd &
Seebohm) provide documentation for identifying her as a daughter of Ithel ap
Rhys ab Ifor of Cantref Selyf (styled 'Frenin Gwent'), but they both accepted
her as such.
Regarding Emma de Aldithelegh, wife successively of Henry Tuchet and
Gruffudd ap Madog, Cokayne in Complete Peerage (1959) [XII:56] stated that her first
husband died shortly before 8 Jan. 1241/2, and that she was alive as late as
Feb. 1264/5. From the Patent Rolls we can add that she had married her
second husband by 1 Jul. 1244 [Henry III, 3:430] and that she was alive as late
as Nov. 1278 [Edw. I, 1:282-283]. Also the 1270 IPM cited by Seebohm clearly
identifies her as a legitimate daughter of Henry de Aldethelig'. Transcripts
of the Welsh Rolls reproduced on pp. 182-188 of vol. I of his opus, confirm
her presence in Maelor Saesneg in 1278. At that time she seems to have
retired to England, Edward I having granted her rents from the farm of the town of
Derby, Claverle manor, Shropshire, and Tottenhale manor, Staffordshire.
A little biographical note overlooked by Lloyd is that the brother of
Gruffudd ap Madog (d. 1269) named Hywel ap Madog was a priest at Myddle,
Shropshire, who was favored by Henry III. See the 1232 charter transcribed in Patent
Rolls, Henry III, 2:457-458 where he is desribed as "Hoheli filio Maddoc filii
Griffini de Bromfeld, persone de Mudle..."
-
Gjest
Re: Question Regarding Wife of Madog ap Gruffudd Maelawr (d.
_RootsWeb: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L Re: Question Regarding Wife of Madog ap Gruffudd
Maelawr (d. 1236) of Powys Fadog_
(http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GE ... 1149434088)
Carl~
Both J.Y.W. LLoyd in his work The History of the Princes...of Powys Fadog
(1881) [vol. I, p. 162] and Frederic Seebohm in his work The Tribal System in
Wales (1904) [pp. 151-152, A105] contradict Bartrum's later work by stating
Madog's wife was Isotta ferch Ithel. Seebohm in his Appendix D [pp. A101-A105]
provides documentation to support this lady's given name as Ysota, a variant
of Isolde. On those pages he reproduced in full the 1270 IPM concerning the
lands of Griffini fil Madocii de Brumfeld [Chancery Inquisition post Mortem,
5 Edw. I., No. 78, PRO], and this document clearly identifies Gruffudd ap
Madog's mother as Lady Isotta, "dna Ysota." Neither of these sources (Lloyd &
Seebohm) provide documentation for identifying her as a daughter of Ithel ap
Rhys ab Ifor of Cantref Selyf (styled 'Frenin Gwent'), but they both accepted
her as such.
Regarding Emma de Aldithelegh, wife successively of Henry Tuchet and
Gruffudd ap Madog, Cokayne in Complete Peerage (1959) [XII:56] stated that her first
husband died shortly before 8 Jan. 1241/2, and that she was alive as late as
Feb. 1264/5. From the Patent Rolls we can add that she had married her
second husband by 1 Jul. 1244 [Henry III, 3:430] and that she was alive as late
as Nov. 1278 [Edw. I, 1:282-283]. Also the 1270 IPM cited by Seebohm clearly
identifies her as a legitimate daughter of Henry de Aldethelig'. Transcripts
of the Welsh Rolls reproduced on pp. 182-188 of vol. I of his opus, confirm
her presence in Maelor Saesneg in 1278. At that time she seems to have
retired to England, Edward I having granted her rents from the farm of the town of
Derby, Claverle manor, Shropshire, and Tottenhale manor, Staffordshire.
A little biographical note overlooked by Lloyd is that the brother of
Gruffudd ap Madog (d. 1269) named Hywel ap Madog was a priest at Myddle,
Shropshire, who was favored by Henry III. See the 1232 charter transcribed in Patent
Rolls, Henry III, 2:457-458 where he is desribed as "Hoheli filio Maddoc filii
Griffini de Bromfeld, persone de Mudle..."
Maelawr (d. 1236) of Powys Fadog_
(http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GE ... 1149434088)
Carl~
Both J.Y.W. LLoyd in his work The History of the Princes...of Powys Fadog
(1881) [vol. I, p. 162] and Frederic Seebohm in his work The Tribal System in
Wales (1904) [pp. 151-152, A105] contradict Bartrum's later work by stating
Madog's wife was Isotta ferch Ithel. Seebohm in his Appendix D [pp. A101-A105]
provides documentation to support this lady's given name as Ysota, a variant
of Isolde. On those pages he reproduced in full the 1270 IPM concerning the
lands of Griffini fil Madocii de Brumfeld [Chancery Inquisition post Mortem,
5 Edw. I., No. 78, PRO], and this document clearly identifies Gruffudd ap
Madog's mother as Lady Isotta, "dna Ysota." Neither of these sources (Lloyd &
Seebohm) provide documentation for identifying her as a daughter of Ithel ap
Rhys ab Ifor of Cantref Selyf (styled 'Frenin Gwent'), but they both accepted
her as such.
Regarding Emma de Aldithelegh, wife successively of Henry Tuchet and
Gruffudd ap Madog, Cokayne in Complete Peerage (1959) [XII:56] stated that her first
husband died shortly before 8 Jan. 1241/2, and that she was alive as late as
Feb. 1264/5. From the Patent Rolls we can add that she had married her
second husband by 1 Jul. 1244 [Henry III, 3:430] and that she was alive as late
as Nov. 1278 [Edw. I, 1:282-283]. Also the 1270 IPM cited by Seebohm clearly
identifies her as a legitimate daughter of Henry de Aldethelig'. Transcripts
of the Welsh Rolls reproduced on pp. 182-188 of vol. I of his opus, confirm
her presence in Maelor Saesneg in 1278. At that time she seems to have
retired to England, Edward I having granted her rents from the farm of the town of
Derby, Claverle manor, Shropshire, and Tottenhale manor, Staffordshire.
A little biographical note overlooked by Lloyd is that the brother of
Gruffudd ap Madog (d. 1269) named Hywel ap Madog was a priest at Myddle,
Shropshire, who was favored by Henry III. See the 1232 charter transcribed in Patent
Rolls, Henry III, 2:457-458 where he is desribed as "Hoheli filio Maddoc filii
Griffini de Bromfeld, persone de Mudle..."
-
Doug Thompson
Re: Question Regarding Wife of Madog ap Gruffudd Maelawr (d.
On 24/6/06 18:23, in article
1151169787.925926.281080@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com, "John P. Ravilious"
<therav3@aol.com> wrote:
John
I find this difficult to believe. William and Maud de Braose's sixteen!
children are fairly well documented and there isn't a spare daughter going
that I can see.
Could Madog's wife have been a sister of Walter de Lacy?
Doug Thompson
--
http://freespace.virgin.net/doug.thomps ... /stage.htm
1151169787.925926.281080@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com, "John P. Ravilious"
<therav3@aol.com> wrote:
It is certainly possibly that Madog ap Gruffydd (d. 1236) was
married twice. I have his wife as a daughter (unnamed) of William de
Braose (d. 1211) and Maud de St. Valery, based in part on Janet
Meisel's documentation identifying Madog's daughter Angharad as a niece
of Walter de Lacy (d. bef 24 Feb 1240/1), Lord of Meath:
John
I find this difficult to believe. William and Maud de Braose's sixteen!
children are fairly well documented and there isn't a spare daughter going
that I can see.
Could Madog's wife have been a sister of Walter de Lacy?
Doug Thompson
--
http://freespace.virgin.net/doug.thomps ... /stage.htm
-
Gjest
Re: Question Regarding Wife of Madog ap Gruffudd Maelawr (d.
_RootsWeb: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L Re: Question Regarding Wife of Madog ap Gruffudd
Maelawr (d. 1236) of Powys F..._
(http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GE ... 1149443455)
James~
Madog, the legitimate son of Gruffudd ap Madog (d. 1269) by Emma de
Aldithelegh, was lord of Maelor Gymraeg (Bromfield), Ial (Yale), Chirk, and
Nanheudwy; he died in 1277, leaving his wife Margaret, and two infant sons, Llywelyn
and Gruffudd. These two children were drowned in 1281 by their Norman
guardians in the river Dee under the bridge of Caer Leonis (Holt Castle). See
J.Y.W. Lloyd's The History of the Princes, the Lords Marcher, and the Ancient
Nobility of Powys Fadog...(1881), vol. I.
Maelawr (d. 1236) of Powys F..._
(http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GE ... 1149443455)
James~
Madog, the legitimate son of Gruffudd ap Madog (d. 1269) by Emma de
Aldithelegh, was lord of Maelor Gymraeg (Bromfield), Ial (Yale), Chirk, and
Nanheudwy; he died in 1277, leaving his wife Margaret, and two infant sons, Llywelyn
and Gruffudd. These two children were drowned in 1281 by their Norman
guardians in the river Dee under the bridge of Caer Leonis (Holt Castle). See
J.Y.W. Lloyd's The History of the Princes, the Lords Marcher, and the Ancient
Nobility of Powys Fadog...(1881), vol. I.
-
John P. Ravilious
Re: Question Regarding Wife of Madog ap Gruffudd Maelawr (d.
Dear Doug,
It's certainly feasible (I don't have a note as to Meisel's
underlying documentation for this statement). Another possibility
would be, that William de Braose had an illegitimate daughter (not
aware of another marriage).
The Lacy family certainly had it's own Welsh and marcher
connections: hopefully someone has Meisel to hand, which hopefully
provides her source(s).
Cheers,
John
Doug Thompson wrote:
It's certainly feasible (I don't have a note as to Meisel's
underlying documentation for this statement). Another possibility
would be, that William de Braose had an illegitimate daughter (not
aware of another marriage).
The Lacy family certainly had it's own Welsh and marcher
connections: hopefully someone has Meisel to hand, which hopefully
provides her source(s).
Cheers,
John
Doug Thompson wrote:
On 24/6/06 18:23, in article
1151169787.925926.281080@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com, "John P. Ravilious"
therav3@aol.com> wrote:
It is certainly possibly that Madog ap Gruffydd (d. 1236) was
married twice. I have his wife as a daughter (unnamed) of William de
Braose (d. 1211) and Maud de St. Valery, based in part on Janet
Meisel's documentation identifying Madog's daughter Angharad as a niece
of Walter de Lacy (d. bef 24 Feb 1240/1), Lord of Meath:
John
I find this difficult to believe. William and Maud de Braose's sixteen!
children are fairly well documented and there isn't a spare daughter going
that I can see.
Could Madog's wife have been a sister of Walter de Lacy?
Doug Thompson
--
http://freespace.virgin.net/doug.thomps ... /stage.htm
-
Perfect Tommy
Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England
In article <43e.24e1653.31acb5df@aol.com>, <WJhonson@aol.com> wrote:
I find in amusing, as well as offensive, that the same archaeologists
who proudly anounced they had found the tomb of the person later
worshiped as Ra are the same ones who dismiss the very existence of
Odin on the basis that he was worshiped as a god. They swear some king
of Uruk is real because he is on a list as ruling for 1300 years, yet
King Aun is myth because he lived to be more than 120.
The Woden many genealogies trace back to is not the god Odin, he is the
4th century Woden whose wife was named Frigg, hence the confusion. Of
course, they thought they were linking to the god, yet the dating
doesn't work. Of the 14 ways I am supposedly descended from Odin, only
2 actually seem possible. The rest try to squeeze 100 generations into
200 years to connect with Woden, or they try to stretch 10 generation
over 700 years to connect with Odin.
Was Odin real? I believe so. I also believe he was completely insane;
if the stories are based even remotely on fact. I also believe he was a
Scythian. That would explain the disappearance of Asgard (the Scythians
were nomadic so their camp would not be in the same place long, though
possibly in the same place at the same time every year), his claim to
be a god (the Scythians were known to claim divinity as a way of
securing loyatly from conquered peoples), the crusifixion tale of how
he aquired the runes, and the claim that the kings of Sweden had
relatives in the middle-east (the Scythians had conquered part of
Persia and left a group behind to rule).
Many historians try to dismiss ancient Scandinavian stories simply
because the names of the people are the same as that of other things,
mostly in nature (snow, mountains, shore). I guess my sister, whose
name means "meadow", isn't real, along with anyone named Autumn, Poppy
Montgomery and her sisters, anyone named Brooke (Brooke Shields doesn't
exist), etc. I think you get my point.
But I'm no expert.
In a message dated 5/29/06 12:22:23 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
paulvheath@gmail.com writes:
Woden's alleged son Vecta is a Roman name for the Isle of Wight
(found in two Roman sources and Bede). No man nor god can begat an
island, nor can an island be the grandfather of a couple of horses.
The island was named for the person. Simple enough
Will
I find in amusing, as well as offensive, that the same archaeologists
who proudly anounced they had found the tomb of the person later
worshiped as Ra are the same ones who dismiss the very existence of
Odin on the basis that he was worshiped as a god. They swear some king
of Uruk is real because he is on a list as ruling for 1300 years, yet
King Aun is myth because he lived to be more than 120.
The Woden many genealogies trace back to is not the god Odin, he is the
4th century Woden whose wife was named Frigg, hence the confusion. Of
course, they thought they were linking to the god, yet the dating
doesn't work. Of the 14 ways I am supposedly descended from Odin, only
2 actually seem possible. The rest try to squeeze 100 generations into
200 years to connect with Woden, or they try to stretch 10 generation
over 700 years to connect with Odin.
Was Odin real? I believe so. I also believe he was completely insane;
if the stories are based even remotely on fact. I also believe he was a
Scythian. That would explain the disappearance of Asgard (the Scythians
were nomadic so their camp would not be in the same place long, though
possibly in the same place at the same time every year), his claim to
be a god (the Scythians were known to claim divinity as a way of
securing loyatly from conquered peoples), the crusifixion tale of how
he aquired the runes, and the claim that the kings of Sweden had
relatives in the middle-east (the Scythians had conquered part of
Persia and left a group behind to rule).
Many historians try to dismiss ancient Scandinavian stories simply
because the names of the people are the same as that of other things,
mostly in nature (snow, mountains, shore). I guess my sister, whose
name means "meadow", isn't real, along with anyone named Autumn, Poppy
Montgomery and her sisters, anyone named Brooke (Brooke Shields doesn't
exist), etc. I think you get my point.
But I'm no expert.
-
Gjest
Re: Question Regarding Wife of Madog ap Gruffudd Maelawr (d.
_RootsWeb: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L Re: Question Regarding Wife of Madog ap Gruffudd
Maelawr (d. 1236) of Powys Fado_
(http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GE ... 1151169787)
John~
In your citation you stated called Madog ap Gruffudd (d. 1236), prince of
SOUTH Wales. The Madog I am referring to was regarded by the Welsh as a prince
of Powys Fadog, which is now part of Denbighshire and Flintshire in NORTHERN
Wales. In English records he is only ever called lord though.
Todd Whitesides
Maelawr (d. 1236) of Powys Fado_
(http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GE ... 1151169787)
John~
In your citation you stated called Madog ap Gruffudd (d. 1236), prince of
SOUTH Wales. The Madog I am referring to was regarded by the Welsh as a prince
of Powys Fadog, which is now part of Denbighshire and Flintshire in NORTHERN
Wales. In English records he is only ever called lord though.
Todd Whitesides
-
Todd A. Farmerie
Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England
Perfect Tommy wrote:
You should find it unbelievable, as it would be entirely different sets
of archaeologists researching a tomb in ancient Egypt and ancient
Scandinavian mythology - more the work of an anthropologist.
Just assertion. There is no evidence that a 4th century individual of
this name existed.
Of
It is unclear how the dating of a connection to a god can not work, as
they are generally believed by believers to be immortal - there is no
date at which a god could not have a child, and no number of generations
too many or too few (e.g. there is a religion you may have heard of that
believes the same deity created a man and a woman in 4004 BC and then
fathered a son 4000 years later).
Of the 14 ways I am supposedly descended from Odin, only
That is two more than can be supported by a critical analysis of
surviving documentation.
Well, you can certainly believe this if you want. The lack of
supporting evidence makes anything possible. However, you might want to
ask yourself why you find this particular set of beliefs more
comfortable than, say, that the pedigree is invented and that he was not
a historical person.
You wouldn't be able to name any would you? I doubt there are any that
"dismiss ancient Scandinavian stories" for this reason and this reason
alone.
taf
I find in amusing, as well as offensive, that the same archaeologists
who proudly anounced they had found the tomb of the person later
worshiped as Ra are the same ones who dismiss the very existence of
Odin on the basis that he was worshiped as a god.
You should find it unbelievable, as it would be entirely different sets
of archaeologists researching a tomb in ancient Egypt and ancient
Scandinavian mythology - more the work of an anthropologist.
The Woden many genealogies trace back to is not the god Odin, he is the
4th century Woden whose wife was named Frigg, hence the confusion.
Just assertion. There is no evidence that a 4th century individual of
this name existed.
Of
course, they thought they were linking to the god, yet the dating
doesn't work.
It is unclear how the dating of a connection to a god can not work, as
they are generally believed by believers to be immortal - there is no
date at which a god could not have a child, and no number of generations
too many or too few (e.g. there is a religion you may have heard of that
believes the same deity created a man and a woman in 4004 BC and then
fathered a son 4000 years later).
Of the 14 ways I am supposedly descended from Odin, only
2 actually seem possible.
That is two more than can be supported by a critical analysis of
surviving documentation.
Was Odin real? I believe so. I also believe he was completely insane;
if the stories are based even remotely on fact. I also believe he was a
Scythian.
Well, you can certainly believe this if you want. The lack of
supporting evidence makes anything possible. However, you might want to
ask yourself why you find this particular set of beliefs more
comfortable than, say, that the pedigree is invented and that he was not
a historical person.
Many historians try to dismiss ancient Scandinavian stories simply
because the names of the people are the same as that of other things,
You wouldn't be able to name any would you? I doubt there are any that
"dismiss ancient Scandinavian stories" for this reason and this reason
alone.
taf
-
John P. Ravilious
Re: Question Regarding Wife of Madog ap Gruffudd Maelawr (d.
Dear Todd,
Actually, Janet Meisel was the author(ess) of the text in
question. My own notes re: Madog ap Gruffydd (abbreviated as they are)
follow:
" Lord of Northern Powys (called Powys Fadog after him) 1191 - 1236
(ruled jointly with brother Owain, 1191-1197)
joined Llywelyn ap Iorwerth in league against England, 1212 [Brut y
Tywysogion]
'Maddoc filius et heres Griffini de Suttun', held lands
of Sutton in co. Salop.:
he fined in 1221 to have the lands of his father
in Shropshire [Excerpta e Rotulis Finium I:59] "
We are in fact speaking of the same Madog; at present only the
wife (-ives) is (are) in question.
Cheers,
John
ToddWhitesides@aol.com wrote:
Actually, Janet Meisel was the author(ess) of the text in
question. My own notes re: Madog ap Gruffydd (abbreviated as they are)
follow:
" Lord of Northern Powys (called Powys Fadog after him) 1191 - 1236
(ruled jointly with brother Owain, 1191-1197)
joined Llywelyn ap Iorwerth in league against England, 1212 [Brut y
Tywysogion]
'Maddoc filius et heres Griffini de Suttun', held lands
of Sutton in co. Salop.:
he fined in 1221 to have the lands of his father
in Shropshire [Excerpta e Rotulis Finium I:59] "
We are in fact speaking of the same Madog; at present only the
wife (-ives) is (are) in question.
Cheers,
John
ToddWhitesides@aol.com wrote:
_RootsWeb: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L Re: Question Regarding Wife of Madog ap Gruffudd
Maelawr (d. 1236) of Powys Fado_
(http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GE ... 1151169787)
John~
In your citation you stated called Madog ap Gruffudd (d. 1236), prince of
SOUTH Wales. The Madog I am referring to was regarded by the Welsh as a prince
of Powys Fadog, which is now part of Denbighshire and Flintshire in NORTHERN
Wales. In English records he is only ever called lord though.
Todd Whitesides
-
Gjest
Re: Cave of Stanford / Bowes / Huddleston
Details of Bowes of Elford as promised.. .
Sir John Bowes (b. abt1530 d. Jan 1607/8) m. 1st Anne Huddleston dau. of
Richard Huddleston, esq., of Elford and his wife, Margery Smyth. Sir John Bowes
m. 2nd. Susannah Cave, dau of Sir Thomas Cave of Stamford, Northamptonshire
and hise wife, Elizabeth Danvers. Sir John Bowes and Susannah Cave had an
only dau. Elizabeth who was buried at Elford 18 December 1580 and who married
Nicholas Heveningham, Esq., of Aston, Staffordshire.
Sir John Bowes was the eldest son of John Bowes, Esq., (d. abt. 1552) of the
manor of Okeley, in Staffordshire and Hackney in London and his wife,
Dorothy Markham the dau. of Jerome Markham of Sedgebrook, Lincolnshire and his
wife, Unknown de Longvilliers. Other issue of Sir John Bowes and Dorothy Markham
are :
1. Sir Ralph Bowes (b. bef 1554) of the manor of Eggleston, Durham and also
of London
2. Robert Bowes
3. Sir Jerome Bowes of Eggleston and of St. Martin in the Field, London.
Buried 1616 Hackney. Ambassador to Russia during the Reign of Elizabeth I.
4. Sir Edward Bowes of the manor of Lowleham(?)
5. Thomas Bowes
6. Anne Bowes
7. Elizabeth Bowes m. Sir George Harte of Lullingstone Castle, Kent.
John Bowes, Esq., (d. abt 1552) was the son John Bowes, gent., said to be a
younger son of the Bowes of Streathlam, Durham family and his wife, Anne
Gunvile of Gorleston, Suffolk dau. of John Gunvyle and Maud Stoneham. The
Gunvyles were descended from Edmund Gunvyle the founder of Gonville College,
Cambridge in 1348. This John Bowes, Esq., is POSSIBLY a younger son of Sir
William Bowes (d.1466) and Maud Fitzhugh, his wife OR the son of their son Sir
Ralph Bowes and his wife, Margery Conyers.
Sources:
Visitations of London 1568
PCC Ref: PROB 11/36 - Will of John Bowes of Okeley 1554
PCC Ref: PROB 11/21 - Will of John Bowes 1523
Visitation of Staffordshire, 1583
Birmingham City Archives : Elford Hall Collection Catalogue Ref. MS 3878
Many various references from the National Archives, Kew (of which further
details can be supplied).
Hope this helps.
Rose
Epsom Downs/UK
Sir John Bowes (b. abt1530 d. Jan 1607/8) m. 1st Anne Huddleston dau. of
Richard Huddleston, esq., of Elford and his wife, Margery Smyth. Sir John Bowes
m. 2nd. Susannah Cave, dau of Sir Thomas Cave of Stamford, Northamptonshire
and hise wife, Elizabeth Danvers. Sir John Bowes and Susannah Cave had an
only dau. Elizabeth who was buried at Elford 18 December 1580 and who married
Nicholas Heveningham, Esq., of Aston, Staffordshire.
Sir John Bowes was the eldest son of John Bowes, Esq., (d. abt. 1552) of the
manor of Okeley, in Staffordshire and Hackney in London and his wife,
Dorothy Markham the dau. of Jerome Markham of Sedgebrook, Lincolnshire and his
wife, Unknown de Longvilliers. Other issue of Sir John Bowes and Dorothy Markham
are :
1. Sir Ralph Bowes (b. bef 1554) of the manor of Eggleston, Durham and also
of London
2. Robert Bowes
3. Sir Jerome Bowes of Eggleston and of St. Martin in the Field, London.
Buried 1616 Hackney. Ambassador to Russia during the Reign of Elizabeth I.
4. Sir Edward Bowes of the manor of Lowleham(?)
5. Thomas Bowes
6. Anne Bowes
7. Elizabeth Bowes m. Sir George Harte of Lullingstone Castle, Kent.
John Bowes, Esq., (d. abt 1552) was the son John Bowes, gent., said to be a
younger son of the Bowes of Streathlam, Durham family and his wife, Anne
Gunvile of Gorleston, Suffolk dau. of John Gunvyle and Maud Stoneham. The
Gunvyles were descended from Edmund Gunvyle the founder of Gonville College,
Cambridge in 1348. This John Bowes, Esq., is POSSIBLY a younger son of Sir
William Bowes (d.1466) and Maud Fitzhugh, his wife OR the son of their son Sir
Ralph Bowes and his wife, Margery Conyers.
Sources:
Visitations of London 1568
PCC Ref: PROB 11/36 - Will of John Bowes of Okeley 1554
PCC Ref: PROB 11/21 - Will of John Bowes 1523
Visitation of Staffordshire, 1583
Birmingham City Archives : Elford Hall Collection Catalogue Ref. MS 3878
Many various references from the National Archives, Kew (of which further
details can be supplied).
Hope this helps.
Rose
Epsom Downs/UK
-
Gjest
Re: Cave of Stanford / Bowes / Huddleston
Maytree4@aol.com schrieb:
Rose
Very interesting post, thanks. Would I be right in conjecturing that
this Richard Hudleston was of the Sawston family? You once mentioned
that you had some particulars of the Sawston line - I would be very
interested to see any data that you may feel able to share.
Kind regards, Michael
Details of Bowes of Elford as promised.. .
Sir John Bowes (b. abt1530 d. Jan 1607/8) m. 1st Anne Huddleston dau. of
Richard Huddleston, esq., of Elford and his wife, Margery Smyth.
Rose
Very interesting post, thanks. Would I be right in conjecturing that
this Richard Hudleston was of the Sawston family? You once mentioned
that you had some particulars of the Sawston line - I would be very
interested to see any data that you may feel able to share.
Kind regards, Michael
-
Gjest
Re: Cave of Stanford / Bowes / Huddleston
mjcar@btinternet.com wrote:
Michael,
Yes, you are quite correct this Richard Huddleston is of the Sawston
branch. He was the son of Lady Isabel de Neville and Sir William
Huddleston of Sawston. He married Margery Smythe the dau. of Sir
William Smythe of Elford and his wife, Anne Staunton. Sir William
Smythe's 2nd wife was Lady Isabel Neville, wife of Sir William
Huddleston. This Lady Isabel Neville was the daughter of John Neville
and Isabel de Ingoldesthorpe.
On her mother's side, Margery Smythe goes back to the Stanley of Elford
line.
Rose
********@aol.com schrieb:
Details of Bowes of Elford as promised.. .
Sir John Bowes (b. abt1530 d. Jan 1607/8) m. 1st Anne Huddleston dau. of
Richard Huddleston, esq., of Elford and his wife, Margery Smyth.
Rose
Very interesting post, thanks. Would I be right in conjecturing that
this Richard Hudleston was of the Sawston family? You once mentioned
that you had some particulars of the Sawston line - I would be very
interested to see any data that you may feel able to share.
Kind regards, Michael
Michael,
Yes, you are quite correct this Richard Huddleston is of the Sawston
branch. He was the son of Lady Isabel de Neville and Sir William
Huddleston of Sawston. He married Margery Smythe the dau. of Sir
William Smythe of Elford and his wife, Anne Staunton. Sir William
Smythe's 2nd wife was Lady Isabel Neville, wife of Sir William
Huddleston. This Lady Isabel Neville was the daughter of John Neville
and Isabel de Ingoldesthorpe.
On her mother's side, Margery Smythe goes back to the Stanley of Elford
line.
Rose
-
Gjest
Re: Cave of Stanford / Bowes / Huddleston
hevenyng...@aol.com schrieb:
Rose
Much appreciated - thanks again.
Best wishes, Michael
Very interesting post, thanks. Would I be right in conjecturing that
this Richard Hudleston was of the Sawston family? You once mentioned
that you had some particulars of the Sawston line - I would be very
interested to see any data that you may feel able to share.
Kind regards, Michael
Michael,
Yes, you are quite correct this Richard Huddleston is of the Sawston
branch. He was the son of Lady Isabel de Neville and Sir William
Huddleston of Sawston. He married Margery Smythe the dau. of Sir
William Smythe of Elford and his wife, Anne Staunton. Sir William
Smythe's 2nd wife was Lady Isabel Neville, wife of Sir William
Huddleston. This Lady Isabel Neville was the daughter of John Neville
and Isabel de Ingoldesthorpe.
On her mother's side, Margery Smythe goes back to the Stanley of Elford
line.
Rose
Much appreciated - thanks again.
Best wishes, Michael
-
Gjest
Re: Hudleston of Whittington
In a message dated 6/24/06 3:25:47 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
mjcar@btinternet.com writes:
<< Some further particulars of the Hudlestons of Whittington, Lancs, taken
largely from VCH Lancashire, Vol 8:
1. Sir John de Hudleston, son and heir of Sir Richard de Hudleston;
summoned as a baron, 1297; >>
In an earlier post you had said :
Date: 5/30/06 8:22:45 AM Pacific Daylight Time
From: mjcar@btinternet.com
1b. John Hudleston, living 1251, younger brother of Richard de Hudleston of
Hudleston; died circa 1252 (see Trans. CWAAS NS iii 86-7), married Joan,
daughter and heir of Adam de Boyvill, of Millom. Issue:
2a. Sir John de Hudleston, son and heir ff 1292-1311; summoned as a baron,
1297>>
This John summoned as a baron in 1297 , was he son of Richard as the post at
top? Or son of John as the post at bottom ?
Thanks
Will Johnson
mjcar@btinternet.com writes:
<< Some further particulars of the Hudlestons of Whittington, Lancs, taken
largely from VCH Lancashire, Vol 8:
1. Sir John de Hudleston, son and heir of Sir Richard de Hudleston;
summoned as a baron, 1297; >>
In an earlier post you had said :
Date: 5/30/06 8:22:45 AM Pacific Daylight Time
From: mjcar@btinternet.com
1b. John Hudleston, living 1251, younger brother of Richard de Hudleston of
Hudleston; died circa 1252 (see Trans. CWAAS NS iii 86-7), married Joan,
daughter and heir of Adam de Boyvill, of Millom. Issue:
2a. Sir John de Hudleston, son and heir ff 1292-1311; summoned as a baron,
1297>>
This John summoned as a baron in 1297 , was he son of Richard as the post at
top? Or son of John as the post at bottom ?
Thanks
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: Edward Greville's brother-in-law, Sir Edmund Tame
In a message dated 6/23/06 7:10:31 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
JohnH4999@hotmail.com writes:
<< I show in my wife's Greville tree, that an Agnes Greville was married to
Sir
Edmund Tame
and said Agnes was sister of Sir Edward Greville.
Both being children of John Greville and Lady Ann (nee Forster).
regards John H >>
John what is the source for
1) naming Edmund's wife Agnes and
2) making her a Greville?
Thanks
Will Johnson
JohnH4999@hotmail.com writes:
<< I show in my wife's Greville tree, that an Agnes Greville was married to
Sir
Edmund Tame
and said Agnes was sister of Sir Edward Greville.
Both being children of John Greville and Lady Ann (nee Forster).
regards John H >>
John what is the source for
1) naming Edmund's wife Agnes and
2) making her a Greville?
Thanks
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: Edward Greville's brother-in-law, Sir Edmund Tame
In a message dated 6/23/06 6:55:22 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
JohnH4999@hotmail.com writes:
<< re Robert Greville mentioned above:
Upon Marriage to Margaret (nee Arle), he gained Arle Court. Eventually it
passed to his brother William (Judge of Common Pleas) Approx 1520, Sir
Edward Greville transferred the Charlton Kings and Ashley Manor properties
to Robert. Will dated 7/2/1548 and was proved before 25th March 1548 (GRO
1548/76) Buried inside of Parish church Charlton Kings although there was a
family vault at Cheltenham.(CK 1548/9) Surname also shown as "Grevyle" on
will. >>
With such an early property transfer, this Robert must be his brother ?
Thanks
Will Johnson
JohnH4999@hotmail.com writes:
<< re Robert Greville mentioned above:
Upon Marriage to Margaret (nee Arle), he gained Arle Court. Eventually it
passed to his brother William (Judge of Common Pleas) Approx 1520, Sir
Edward Greville transferred the Charlton Kings and Ashley Manor properties
to Robert. Will dated 7/2/1548 and was proved before 25th March 1548 (GRO
1548/76) Buried inside of Parish church Charlton Kings although there was a
family vault at Cheltenham.(CK 1548/9) Surname also shown as "Grevyle" on
will. >>
With such an early property transfer, this Robert must be his brother ?
Thanks
Will Johnson
-
John
Re: Tempest and Hudleston
Douglas Hickling and I have written a piece concerning the Tempest
women in the late medieval period, which Chris Phillips has kindly
consented to post on his Medieval Genealogy website. We understand it
will appear in his next update. Our article touches on some issues
raised in this thread.
Our article takes as its framework a manuscript written by Eleanor
Blanche Tempest (hereafter "EBT") in the 1910s and early 1920s. The
manuscript Tempest Pedigrees is in the British Library (Add. MS
40,670). It is a large folio document of 22 sheets, each about 24 by
20 inches, with dense small script. It begins with Roger Tempest in
the early 12th Century. It is meticulously documented with many
references to primary sources in the Public Record office, the British
Museum, the Bodleian, and public and private collections in Yorkshire
and Lancashire. We have consulted many of these sources for the
individuals we were concerned with, but not all. Her work is
invaluable, but it is clearly not infallible, as I note below. It is
quite evident that Roskell, the various Burke's volumes (e.g., Landed
Gentry, Family Records, and Peerage and Baronetage), the Genealogics
website, Whitaker's Whalley and Craven, and other authorities are
deficient in their treatment of the Tempests.
We have not studied EBT's materials on the Bowling (Bolling)
connection. However, she shows Bowling as entering the Tempest family
no earlier than the late 15th Century when Sir Richard Tempest (b.
1474) married Rosamund, d & h of Tristram Bolling of Bolling. Sir
Richard was son of Nicholas Tempest and Margaret Pilkington and
Nicholas was the son of John Tempest and Alice Sherburne. EBT shows
Catherine Tempest, daughter of Sir Richard Tempest and Mary Talbot (see
below) as the wife of John Huddleston of Millum, co. Cumberland,
married about 1391, giving as a reference Bentham's [? she may be
referring to Betham, which I have not consulted] Baronetage, v. 1, p.
673, note. Evidently this reference refers to Sir Richard Tempest as
of "Bolling" and EBT corrects this to "Bracewell." She also cites a
writ of assize of novel disseisin in May 1377 involving Sir John
Huddleston and Catherine his wife in 32 Dep. Keeper's Rep., p. 348 [?
page number not clear].
With regard to other issues raised in this exchange, EBT shows the
following sequence:
Richard Tempest d.1297
Sir John Tempest, b. 1283 d. shortly after 1356 m. Margaret Holand
Sir John Tempest b. ca 1313 m. Katherine Sherburne
Sir Richard Tempest b. ca 1334, d. 1390 m. Mary Talbot
Sir Richard Tempest b. 1356, d. 1428 m. Margaret Stainforth
We believe this is correct, except as noted below. As has been
observed in this thread, it is difficult to keep the Tempest Johns and
Richards straight during this period. Note that there are only two
Johns in this sequence, the second John did not have a son John.
Evidence of the first John's birth date, 24 August 1283, is a proof of
age in Cal. of Inq. P.M., v. 4, p. 171 (see also Yorkshire Inquisitions
III in Yorkshire Arch. Soc. Rec. Ser., v. 37 pp. 92-93). The last
evidence EBT or we have found for him is a grant of land in Elsack to
which he was a witness 25 June 1356 (Coll. Top. et Gen. v. 6, p. 143).
EBT believes he died shortly after that.
The only other birth date we know with relative certainty in the above
sequence is that of Sir Richard, b. 1356, from his testimony in the
Scrope and Grosvenor trial (Nicholas, v. 1, pp. 198-99, v. 2, pp.
473-74) in which he said in October 1386 that he was 30 years old
(Nicholas suggests two possibilities for Richard's father, both of
which are clearly wrong). Richard made his will 26 August 1427 and it
was proved by his son Roger 30 September 1430 (Test. Ebor., v. 1, pp.
412-13). EBT believes he died in 1428, citing non-payment of an
annuity due to him "because he is dead" (quoting Duchy of Lancaster
Minister's accounts No. 8352, bdl. 524 and accounts of the Priory of
Finchale for May 1429 to May 1430, Surtees Soc. Pub., v. 6, p. cciii).
As noted in this thread, many authorities, including EBT, show Margaret
Holand, daughter of Sir Robert Holand and Maud la Zouche, as the wife
of the first John Tempest. Richardson in Plantagenet Ancestry (pp.
400-01) shows Margaret's husband as John la Warre but notes the
possibility that Margaret was also married to John Tempest. The
sources of this alleged marriage appear to be a manuscript by Roger
Dodsworth (Dodsw. 6, f. 54 in the Bodleian Library, this is the source
for a pedigree in Harleian 6136, f. 53 in the British Library, see also
Harleian 4630, f. 388) and the Visitation of Devon 1562 (Harleian 5185
and the printed version of this by Frederick Thomas Colby, 1881).
We believe that we have shown that John Tempest could not have been
married to Margaret Holand or to any other daughter of Robert and Maud.
Our full argument may be found in the above referenced article, but
the basic ideas are as follows. The marriage of Sir Robert Holand and
Maud la Zouche and Maud's birth in about 1290 are established by the
inquests at the death of her father, Alan la Zouche (Cal. Inq. P.M. v.
5, pp. 255-59) the first dated 27 March 1314 in which Maud is
identified as the wife of Sir Robert Holand and as age 24. Complete
Peerage (v. 6, p. 530) says that Robert and Maud were married in 1311.
The marriage could have taken place earlier, say as early as 1305,
although that is unlikely. We do not know the exact dates of birth of
the second John Tempest or his son Richard, but we do know the birth
date of Richard b. 1356 and it appears impossible that Maud could have
been his great great grandmother. There is also the problem noted in
this thread that a marriage of John Tempest and Margaret Holand would
lead to an impermissible consanguinity in the next generation: the
marriage of Sir John with Katherine Sherburne, since Katherine was the
great granddaughter of Robert Holand and Elizabeth de Samlesbury, the
parents of the Robert Holand who married Maud la Zouche, leading to a
relationship in the second and third degree. We have not found a
permission for such a marriage in the Calendar of Papal Registers or in
the published registers of the Archbishop of York, William Melton
(Canterbury and York Soc., vols. 70, 71, 76, 85, 93, but note that not
all of Melton's registers have been published, they are at the
Borthwick Institute of the University of York). Finally, there is the
matter of a Papal Indult in June 1344 to John Tempest, knight, and
Isabel his wife to select their confessors at the hour of their deaths
(Cal. Papal Registers, Papal Letters, v. 3, p. 179). We know of no one
who has adequately accounted for this Isabel. Of course, it might be
useful to examine the original of this Papal indult to determine if it
has been accurately transcribed, if it can be found.
A marriage between the first Sir John Tempest and a daughter of Robert
Holand and Elizabeth de Samlesbury would fit better on chronological
grounds. Robert and Elizabeth appear to have had two daughters, Joan
and Margaret. However, this Margaret is known to have had three
marriages, to John de Blackburn, Robert de Hepdale, and Adam Banester.
And Joan was also married three times, to Edmund Talbot, Hugh Dutton,
and John Radcliffe. So it appears unlikely that Sir John Tempest was
married to a Holand daughter, at least in this line. We conclude that
the identity of his wife is yet unknown.
There remains, however, another consanguinity problem, that of the
marriage of Richard Tempest and Mary Talbot. Mary Talbot was the
granddaughter of Edmund Talbot and Joan Holand and the great
granddaughter of Robert Holand and Elizabeth de Samlesbury. Richard
Tempest was the great grandson of Robert and Elizabeth, so they are
related in the third and third degrees. We have not found a
dispensation for this marriage in the Cal. of Papal Registers or in
Melton's published registers. However, as noted above, not all of
Melton's registers have been published and failure to find a
dispensation is not definitive evidence, although it would be nice if
it could be found.
The Clitheroe connection, found in Whitaker and other places, is
completely specious, as is the claimed de Gras connection with this
branch of the Tempests. Richard, b. 1356, had an uncle Richard who was
married to Isabel, daughter of Sir John le Gras of Studley, and these
Richards are often confused.
I might note that our concern has been with the ancestry of Isabel
Tempest who married Laurence Hamerton. Isabel's parentage is often
confused in the literature, often shown as a daughter of a John
Tempest. EBT shows Isabel as the daughter of Sir Richard, b. 1356, and
in our article we conclude that she was right. For reasons we detail
there, we cannot be sure that her mother was Margaret Stainforth.
One more point: I have as the wives of Nicholas Harrington Isabel
English and Margaret Latham d. of Thomas Latham. The sources I have
for Margaret Latham are Whitaker's History of Richmondshire (1823,
chart fol. p. 250), Baines History of Lancaster (1888, v. 5, chart p.
74), and Ian Grimble, Harington Family (1957, p. 27), but I have not
examined these recently. I do not have primary sources for this part
of the Harrington line.
We are grateful to Chris Phillips for his assistance in locating,
translating, and interpreting original documents at the National
Archives, British Library, and College of Arms. We thank the Borthwick
Institute and the College of Arms for locating and translation services
and the British Library and Bodleian Library for providing us with
photocopies of various documents.
John Schuerman
Chicago
women in the late medieval period, which Chris Phillips has kindly
consented to post on his Medieval Genealogy website. We understand it
will appear in his next update. Our article touches on some issues
raised in this thread.
Our article takes as its framework a manuscript written by Eleanor
Blanche Tempest (hereafter "EBT") in the 1910s and early 1920s. The
manuscript Tempest Pedigrees is in the British Library (Add. MS
40,670). It is a large folio document of 22 sheets, each about 24 by
20 inches, with dense small script. It begins with Roger Tempest in
the early 12th Century. It is meticulously documented with many
references to primary sources in the Public Record office, the British
Museum, the Bodleian, and public and private collections in Yorkshire
and Lancashire. We have consulted many of these sources for the
individuals we were concerned with, but not all. Her work is
invaluable, but it is clearly not infallible, as I note below. It is
quite evident that Roskell, the various Burke's volumes (e.g., Landed
Gentry, Family Records, and Peerage and Baronetage), the Genealogics
website, Whitaker's Whalley and Craven, and other authorities are
deficient in their treatment of the Tempests.
We have not studied EBT's materials on the Bowling (Bolling)
connection. However, she shows Bowling as entering the Tempest family
no earlier than the late 15th Century when Sir Richard Tempest (b.
1474) married Rosamund, d & h of Tristram Bolling of Bolling. Sir
Richard was son of Nicholas Tempest and Margaret Pilkington and
Nicholas was the son of John Tempest and Alice Sherburne. EBT shows
Catherine Tempest, daughter of Sir Richard Tempest and Mary Talbot (see
below) as the wife of John Huddleston of Millum, co. Cumberland,
married about 1391, giving as a reference Bentham's [? she may be
referring to Betham, which I have not consulted] Baronetage, v. 1, p.
673, note. Evidently this reference refers to Sir Richard Tempest as
of "Bolling" and EBT corrects this to "Bracewell." She also cites a
writ of assize of novel disseisin in May 1377 involving Sir John
Huddleston and Catherine his wife in 32 Dep. Keeper's Rep., p. 348 [?
page number not clear].
With regard to other issues raised in this exchange, EBT shows the
following sequence:
Richard Tempest d.1297
Sir John Tempest, b. 1283 d. shortly after 1356 m. Margaret Holand
Sir John Tempest b. ca 1313 m. Katherine Sherburne
Sir Richard Tempest b. ca 1334, d. 1390 m. Mary Talbot
Sir Richard Tempest b. 1356, d. 1428 m. Margaret Stainforth
We believe this is correct, except as noted below. As has been
observed in this thread, it is difficult to keep the Tempest Johns and
Richards straight during this period. Note that there are only two
Johns in this sequence, the second John did not have a son John.
Evidence of the first John's birth date, 24 August 1283, is a proof of
age in Cal. of Inq. P.M., v. 4, p. 171 (see also Yorkshire Inquisitions
III in Yorkshire Arch. Soc. Rec. Ser., v. 37 pp. 92-93). The last
evidence EBT or we have found for him is a grant of land in Elsack to
which he was a witness 25 June 1356 (Coll. Top. et Gen. v. 6, p. 143).
EBT believes he died shortly after that.
The only other birth date we know with relative certainty in the above
sequence is that of Sir Richard, b. 1356, from his testimony in the
Scrope and Grosvenor trial (Nicholas, v. 1, pp. 198-99, v. 2, pp.
473-74) in which he said in October 1386 that he was 30 years old
(Nicholas suggests two possibilities for Richard's father, both of
which are clearly wrong). Richard made his will 26 August 1427 and it
was proved by his son Roger 30 September 1430 (Test. Ebor., v. 1, pp.
412-13). EBT believes he died in 1428, citing non-payment of an
annuity due to him "because he is dead" (quoting Duchy of Lancaster
Minister's accounts No. 8352, bdl. 524 and accounts of the Priory of
Finchale for May 1429 to May 1430, Surtees Soc. Pub., v. 6, p. cciii).
As noted in this thread, many authorities, including EBT, show Margaret
Holand, daughter of Sir Robert Holand and Maud la Zouche, as the wife
of the first John Tempest. Richardson in Plantagenet Ancestry (pp.
400-01) shows Margaret's husband as John la Warre but notes the
possibility that Margaret was also married to John Tempest. The
sources of this alleged marriage appear to be a manuscript by Roger
Dodsworth (Dodsw. 6, f. 54 in the Bodleian Library, this is the source
for a pedigree in Harleian 6136, f. 53 in the British Library, see also
Harleian 4630, f. 388) and the Visitation of Devon 1562 (Harleian 5185
and the printed version of this by Frederick Thomas Colby, 1881).
We believe that we have shown that John Tempest could not have been
married to Margaret Holand or to any other daughter of Robert and Maud.
Our full argument may be found in the above referenced article, but
the basic ideas are as follows. The marriage of Sir Robert Holand and
Maud la Zouche and Maud's birth in about 1290 are established by the
inquests at the death of her father, Alan la Zouche (Cal. Inq. P.M. v.
5, pp. 255-59) the first dated 27 March 1314 in which Maud is
identified as the wife of Sir Robert Holand and as age 24. Complete
Peerage (v. 6, p. 530) says that Robert and Maud were married in 1311.
The marriage could have taken place earlier, say as early as 1305,
although that is unlikely. We do not know the exact dates of birth of
the second John Tempest or his son Richard, but we do know the birth
date of Richard b. 1356 and it appears impossible that Maud could have
been his great great grandmother. There is also the problem noted in
this thread that a marriage of John Tempest and Margaret Holand would
lead to an impermissible consanguinity in the next generation: the
marriage of Sir John with Katherine Sherburne, since Katherine was the
great granddaughter of Robert Holand and Elizabeth de Samlesbury, the
parents of the Robert Holand who married Maud la Zouche, leading to a
relationship in the second and third degree. We have not found a
permission for such a marriage in the Calendar of Papal Registers or in
the published registers of the Archbishop of York, William Melton
(Canterbury and York Soc., vols. 70, 71, 76, 85, 93, but note that not
all of Melton's registers have been published, they are at the
Borthwick Institute of the University of York). Finally, there is the
matter of a Papal Indult in June 1344 to John Tempest, knight, and
Isabel his wife to select their confessors at the hour of their deaths
(Cal. Papal Registers, Papal Letters, v. 3, p. 179). We know of no one
who has adequately accounted for this Isabel. Of course, it might be
useful to examine the original of this Papal indult to determine if it
has been accurately transcribed, if it can be found.
A marriage between the first Sir John Tempest and a daughter of Robert
Holand and Elizabeth de Samlesbury would fit better on chronological
grounds. Robert and Elizabeth appear to have had two daughters, Joan
and Margaret. However, this Margaret is known to have had three
marriages, to John de Blackburn, Robert de Hepdale, and Adam Banester.
And Joan was also married three times, to Edmund Talbot, Hugh Dutton,
and John Radcliffe. So it appears unlikely that Sir John Tempest was
married to a Holand daughter, at least in this line. We conclude that
the identity of his wife is yet unknown.
There remains, however, another consanguinity problem, that of the
marriage of Richard Tempest and Mary Talbot. Mary Talbot was the
granddaughter of Edmund Talbot and Joan Holand and the great
granddaughter of Robert Holand and Elizabeth de Samlesbury. Richard
Tempest was the great grandson of Robert and Elizabeth, so they are
related in the third and third degrees. We have not found a
dispensation for this marriage in the Cal. of Papal Registers or in
Melton's published registers. However, as noted above, not all of
Melton's registers have been published and failure to find a
dispensation is not definitive evidence, although it would be nice if
it could be found.
The Clitheroe connection, found in Whitaker and other places, is
completely specious, as is the claimed de Gras connection with this
branch of the Tempests. Richard, b. 1356, had an uncle Richard who was
married to Isabel, daughter of Sir John le Gras of Studley, and these
Richards are often confused.
I might note that our concern has been with the ancestry of Isabel
Tempest who married Laurence Hamerton. Isabel's parentage is often
confused in the literature, often shown as a daughter of a John
Tempest. EBT shows Isabel as the daughter of Sir Richard, b. 1356, and
in our article we conclude that she was right. For reasons we detail
there, we cannot be sure that her mother was Margaret Stainforth.
One more point: I have as the wives of Nicholas Harrington Isabel
English and Margaret Latham d. of Thomas Latham. The sources I have
for Margaret Latham are Whitaker's History of Richmondshire (1823,
chart fol. p. 250), Baines History of Lancaster (1888, v. 5, chart p.
74), and Ian Grimble, Harington Family (1957, p. 27), but I have not
examined these recently. I do not have primary sources for this part
of the Harrington line.
We are grateful to Chris Phillips for his assistance in locating,
translating, and interpreting original documents at the National
Archives, British Library, and College of Arms. We thank the Borthwick
Institute and the College of Arms for locating and translation services
and the British Library and Bodleian Library for providing us with
photocopies of various documents.
John Schuerman
Chicago
-
Gjest
Re: Tempest and Hudleston
John schrieb:
Wow - first class. Many thanks.
MA-R
Douglas Hickling and I have written a piece concerning the Tempest
women in the late medieval period, which Chris Phillips has kindly
consented to post on his Medieval Genealogy website. We understand it
will appear in his next update. Our article touches on some issues
raised in this thread.
Wow - first class. Many thanks.
MA-R
-
Tim Powys-Lybbe
Re: Huddleston Family
In message of 26 Jun, bales14@tpg.com.au ("Peter") wrote:
There is 'd. of Henery ffenwick' in the Hudleston pedigree of the 1615
visitation of Cumberland (copy e-mailed).
Usual warnings about visitation pedigrees of course.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
Just while on this line I have a Huddleston line that currently stops at Sir
John Huddleston (son of Richard) died circ 1493 and who married Mary
Fenwick.
Is this line connected back to the Huddleston's of this thread and can
anybody supply me with the missing ancestors?
There is 'd. of Henery ffenwick' in the Hudleston pedigree of the 1615
visitation of Cumberland (copy e-mailed).
Usual warnings about visitation pedigrees of course.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
-
Peter
Huddleston Family
Just while on this line I have a Huddleston line that currently stops at Sir
John Huddleston (son of Richard) died circ 1493 and who married Mary
Fenwick.
Is this line connected back to the Huddleston's of this thread and can
anybody supply me with the missing ancestors?
Thanks and much appreciated
Peter
Syd Aust
----- Original Message -----
From: <mjcar@btinternet.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, June 26, 2006 3:14 AM
Subject: Re: Cave of Stanford / Bowes / Huddleston
John Huddleston (son of Richard) died circ 1493 and who married Mary
Fenwick.
Is this line connected back to the Huddleston's of this thread and can
anybody supply me with the missing ancestors?
Thanks and much appreciated
Peter
Syd Aust
----- Original Message -----
From: <mjcar@btinternet.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, June 26, 2006 3:14 AM
Subject: Re: Cave of Stanford / Bowes / Huddleston
Maytree4@aol.com schrieb:
Details of Bowes of Elford as promised.. .
Sir John Bowes (b. abt1530 d. Jan 1607/8) m. 1st Anne Huddleston dau. of
Richard Huddleston, esq., of Elford and his wife, Margery Smyth.
Rose
Very interesting post, thanks. Would I be right in conjecturing that
this Richard Hudleston was of the Sawston family? You once mentioned
that you had some particulars of the Sawston line - I would be very
interested to see any data that you may feel able to share.
Kind regards, Michael
______________________________
-
Gjest
Re: Huddleston Family
Hi, Peter,
Sorry, but I can't tell you, I'm getting totally confused over all these
Hudlestons - maybe someone else may be able to help. I thought I had the
line correct going back from my Sir William Hudleston (spouse of Lady Isabella
Neville) whose parents I believed to be Sir John Hudleston and Jane
Stapleton, then I find another contradictory line. I don't think any one line can be
taken as red. I have been looking at the website of Anne Huddleston Harwood
_http://huddleston.bravepages.com/history/lines.html_
(http://huddleston.bravepages.com/history/lines.html) . You might find it of help but I am finding
it contradictory in some of the lines. Good Luck.
Rose
Epsom Downs/UK
Sorry, but I can't tell you, I'm getting totally confused over all these
Hudlestons - maybe someone else may be able to help. I thought I had the
line correct going back from my Sir William Hudleston (spouse of Lady Isabella
Neville) whose parents I believed to be Sir John Hudleston and Jane
Stapleton, then I find another contradictory line. I don't think any one line can be
taken as red. I have been looking at the website of Anne Huddleston Harwood
_http://huddleston.bravepages.com/history/lines.html_
(http://huddleston.bravepages.com/history/lines.html) . You might find it of help but I am finding
it contradictory in some of the lines. Good Luck.
Rose
Epsom Downs/UK
-
Gjest
Re: Salvayn and Roos de Werk Revisited
Monday, 26 June, 2006
Dear James, et al.,
Thanks for those extracts from the CPR. The Patent Rolls are an
essential source of English genealogy of the period, and it is
fortunate that these are available online as well as in reprint form.
The answer to your first question, the 1348 and 1367 documents
are concerning the same individual. Sir Gerard Salvayn (or Salvain),
of North Duffield, Yorks. was evidently born before 5 Oct 1307, and
died probably in 1373, but before 6 Jul 1373 [see abbreviated
pedigree below]. His heir was his grandson, Gerard [another future
Sir Gerard Salvayn], who was aged 16 at his grandfather's IPM, ergo
he was born ca. 1357 - taken with his grandfather's career, he was
clearly not the Gerard Salvayn of the 1367 exemplification.
As to the Grey area of your 2nd question, Sir John de Grey of
Rotherfield was summoned to Parliament from 15 Nov 1338 by writ
directed 'Johanni de Grey de Rotherfeld,' whereby he is held to have
become Lord Grey of Rotherfield. He died 1 Sept 1359. Details are
in the CP article on Grey of Rotherfield, and Doug Richardson's
Plantagenet Ancestry (refered to on SGM as "RPA"), and likely can
be noted in Leo's "Genealogics" website.
Cheers,
John *
1 Robert de Ros
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 5 Mar 1310, d.s.p.m. (probably in Scotland)[1],[2]
Occ: Lord Ros of Wark
Father: Robert de Ros (-<1274)
Mother: Margaret de Brus (-1307)
of Wark on Tweed, Northumberland
summoned to Parliament from 24 June 1295 by writ directed 'Roberto de
Roos de Werke', thereby held to have become Lord Ros of Wark[3]
in support of Scottish cause against Edward I, resisted at Wark and
defeated forces of his brother, March 1296 (subsequently fled to
Scotland)[5] - Wark taken by forces of Edward I of England[6]
~ evidently continued in his Scots holdings, incl. the lordship
of Sanquhar, Nithsdale after his escape to Scotland in 1296
held lands in Scotland as recorded on 27 April 1296, which had been burnt:
" Robertus de Ros tenet villatam de Car ....w, quae combusta 'est'
et jacet vasta, etc. Et nemo praedictas terras tenet
modo. " [Stevenson II:43[7]]
cf. CP XI:122, sub _Ros of Wark[2]
Bain IV:381[4], cites Chancery Miscellaneous Portfolios, No. 41/195
Dugdale, Baronage of England (p. 555, Ros of Werke[8])
Spouse: Laura (probably de Baliol ?)[2]
Father: [CONJECTURED] Alexander de Baliol, lord of Cavers (-<1311)
Mother: [CONJECTURED] Isabel de Chilham (-1291)
Marr: bef 1292[2]
Children: Margaret (ca1292->1321)
Isabel (ca1295-), m. John de Knockes
1.1 Margaret de Ros
----------------------------------------
Birth: ca 1292, Scotland[2],[1]
Death: aft 26 Dec 1321[9]
elder daughter and coheir:
' b. in Scotland ( Rolls of Parl., vol. i., p. 183). The elder
[daughter], Margaret (aet. 15 in 1307, Cal. Inq. p.m. vol.
iv., no. 427) m. John Salveyn (see Surtees' Durham, vol. iv, City
of Durham, p. 118);..' [CP XI:122, note (a)[2]]
record of her petition to King Edward I for the lands of her
father Robert de Ros, 1306-07:
' 1835. (1) John Salvein and Margarete his wife, and Isabele her
sister pray the K.'s grace herein. Margarete de Ros lately held the manor
of Belethre as dower, of the heritage of Robert de Ros father of said
Margarete and Isabele, whose heirs they are. As she is dead, the
petitioners pray for the manor (notwithstanding that Robert their
father held with the Scots), under the peace with Sir John Comyn
and his adherents.
(2) Robert de Bures shews the K. that for his long service, and
in lieu of 100 marks of land, he received lately a charter of lands in
Scotland, since annulled by the peace made with John Comyn, now
dead, and begs a grant of Belestre manor escheated by Robert de
Brus [Ros ?], extended at 31l. yearly....'
(Endorsed) Rex concessit Roberto de Burs manerium de Belestre
ad totam vitam ipsius Roberti et inde habet cartam Regis. ' [Bain
IV:381[4], cites Chancery Miscellaneous Portfolios, No. 41/195]
order of King Edward II, dated at Berwick, 5 March 1310/11:
' 199. The K. to W. bishop of Worcester, the chancellor. As John de
Knockes the husband of Isabella daughter and one of the heirs of
the late Robert de Ros of Werke, has asked his wife's purparty of
her father's lands both in England and Scotland, and the K. hears
that William son of Sir William de Ros of Hamelake is in possession
of the manor of Werke, he commands that the sheriff of
Northumberland be instructed to summon William to appear before
the K. on the morrow of next Ascension Day, to shew cause why he
should not resign the lands to the claimants under the conditions
granted by the late K. to Sir John Comyn and his adherents.
Berwick-on -Tweed. ' [Bain III:39-40[1], cites Privy Seals
(Tower), 4 Edw. II. File 5]
order of King Edward II to give Margaret de Ros and her husband John
Salvayn seisin of half of her father's lands, dated at London, 30
July 1312:
' 292. The K., referring to the conditions on which his late father
received John Comyn of Badenagh and his Scottish adherents to his
peace - that the late Robert de Ros of Werk was among these, and
John Salvayn and John de Knoches, the husbands of Margaret the
firstborn and Isabella the younger (postnata) daughters and heirs
of said Robert, have represented that their wives were under age
and entitled to the conditions of the peace with Comyn, and were
born and baptized in Scotland, as proved before the Chancellor of
Scotland by its laws and customs, and have offerred their
homage - commands the eschaetor ultra Trent to give John Salvayn,
whose homage he has taken, and Margaret his wife, seisin of their
property, being one half of Robert's lands, retaining the other
half of John de Knoches and his wife till further instructions.
London. ' [Bain III:56[1], cites Close 6 Edw. II. m. 29]
re: seeking seisin in the summer of 1312, they were thwarted: record of
John Salvain's complaint,
'His w. Margaret, d. coh. of Rob. de Ros of Werk, a Scottish rebel, was
born in Scotland, and seeks restoration of her lands, the sub-Escheator
having come to give them seisin of Belestre Manor, Northumb., and the
forester of Belestre having prevented him, 28 Sep 1312.'[9]
cf. CP XI:122, sub _Ros of Wark[2]
Bain IV:381[4], cites Chancery Miscellaneous Portfolios, No. 41/195
Dugdale, Baronage of England (p. 555, Ros of Werke[8])
____________________
re: her husband:
John Salvain (or Salvayn), knt., of Belestre, Northumberland (de jure
uxoris)
according to Burke, heir of his father (d.v.p.)[11]
named as husband of Margaret de Ros by Dugdale[8]
Spouse: John Salvain
Death: bef 13 Mar 1320[11],[9]
Father: Robert Salvayn (-<1297)
Mother: Sibilla Beeston, niece of Sir Roger de Thurkilby (->1286)
Children: Sir Gerard (<1307-<1373)
1.1.1a Sir Gerard Salvain*
----------------------------------------
Birth: bef 5 Oct 1307[12],[11],[9]
Death: bef 6 Jul 1373[13],[14],[12],[11],[15]
knt., of North Duffield and Herswell, co. York
b. before 5 Oct 1307 [he proved his age before 5 Oct 1328: YAS
XCI:102[12], cites CCR 1327-30, p. 327. He was known to have been
ae. 12 at his uncle's death, 1320[9]]
heir of his uncle, Sir Gerard Salvain (Inq.p.m. and F.R.)[9]
Sheriff of Yorkshire, Oct 1349 - Oct 1350 [also escheator]
' Sir Gerard Salvayn, then sheriff of York', witness [together with
Sir Thomas Ughtred, Sir Alexander de Nevill, Sir William Plaicz, Sir
Anketin Salvagn and others] of a charter of Sir Ralph de Nevill,
lord of Raby granting lands in Shirrefhoton, ' for the souls of his
said father [Sir Randolf de Nevill], the lady Eufemia, his mother,
the grantor, Alesia, his wife, and his ancestors, heirs and successors',
dated at Shirrefhoton, 20 April 1350 [letters patent of William,
archbishop of York dated at Cawode, 26 May 1350; Inspeximus and
confirmation by King Edward III at Westminster, 9 Feb 1356/7 - CPR
31 Edw III (1354-1358), mem. 22, p. 510[16]]
record of a grant dated 24 Edw III (between 7 Jan 1349/50 and 6 Jan 1350/51):
C 143/298/10
Gerard Salvayn, knight, to grant messuages and land in
Thorpe-le-Street (Parva Thorp juxta Haiton) to the prior and convent
of Ellerton, retaining the manor of North Duffield. York.
24 EDWARD III. '[17]
'knight of the shire', co. Yorks., Parliament of Feb. 1350/51
[ YAS XCI:102-103[12]]
a dispute of his son "John Salvayn, 'chivaler' " with Hugh de Hamby and
other burgesses of Kingston-upon-Hull addressed by King Edward III at
Westminster, 6 June 1351:
' On the petition of the burgesses of the king's town of
Kyngeston-upon-Hull complaining that John Salvayn, 'chivaler',
Gerard de Lound and others taking to themselves the royal power
came armed to the town and took out of the keeping of the king's
bailiffs of the town some malefactors arrested by them..... and
that Gerard Salvayn, 'chivaler', the said John and Gerard and very
many other their accomplices, by confederacy together, are
scheming to surround the town and kill or do other evil to the
extent of their power to Hugh de Hamby, because he made the
attachment of the malefactors, servants of the said John,...
The king has taken the said Hugh, Geoffrey [de Hamby], Robert
[de Saltfletby] and Walter [de Hamby], the mayor, bailiffs, good men
and other lieges in the town under his special protection.... and if
any one hereafter disregard this protection the king will certainly
punish all such of whatsoever condition in such wise that their
punishment shall be a terror to all in those parts.
By K. on the information of Th[omas] de Brembre. '
[CPR 25 Edw III (1350-1354), mem. 27, p. 102[18]]
held the manor of Belestre, Northumberland [of his mother's inheritance]
before 29 Dec 1355, when King Edward III granted same to Queen Philippa:
' Grant to the king's consort Queen Philippa of the manor of Belestre,
lately recovered by the king against Gerard Salvayn, 'chivaler', by
judgement of the king's court, to hold for her life with the issues
from the day of such recovery. By p.s. '
[CPR 29 Edw III (1354-1358), mem. 2, p. 327[16]]
Sheriff of Yorkshire, 1360-62, 1366-67[19]
' Sir Gerard Salvayn ', witness to gift dated 1361:
' Thomas Dysny of Fosham in Holdernesse & William Youngsmith chaplain
to William son of William de Houton property: all their lands,
tenements, rents & serfs in Houton, Ellerker, Ryplyngham, Sywardby,
Warter & Marton.
Witn. Sir Marmaduke Conestable, Sir Gerard Salvayn, John de Meaux
of Houton, Stephan de Sywardby, Nicholas de Clyf, Nicholas de Etton.
Given at Houton, Mon. in Invention of Holy Cross 1361. Seal, armorial,
a bend.' - A2A, East Riding of Yorkshire Archives and Records Service:
Chichester-Constable Family [DDCC/136 - DDCC2/G], DDCC/149/26/Bb9b[20]
concerning a charter granted by King Henry III (8 Jan 1252/3) for a fair
at North Duffield, co. Yorks.:
'On 5 Nov 1363, Gerard Salvayn, kinsman and heir of Gerard, tenant of
the manor, stated that he and his ancestors had not used the fair
since it was granted by K Edw I. K Edw III granted the fair on vfm
Lawrence (10 Aug) again to Gerard (CChR, 1341-1417, p. 178)'[21]
______________________________
recorded of dispute re: the lands formerly of Robert de Ros, grandfather
of Sir Gerard Salvain, dated 28 & 29 Edw III (ca. 1353/4):
' Parties: Rex v Salvayn Subject: Lands of Robert de Roos of Wark County:
Northumb ' [National Archives C 44/2/9 [17]]
'obtained from the crown the manor of Bellester, in Tyndale, county of
York and an exemplification of the pardon and restitution in blood
granted to his mother (for her father the Lord Ros's treason) by patent,
dated 26 June, 41st Edward III [1368].' [Burke's Landed Gentry,
1054-5[22],[11]]
~ The above also given in essence in CP XI:122, sub _Ros of Wark_
(text given under Margaret de Ros, his mother)[2] . The actual text
is given in CPR 41 Edw III (1364-1367), mem. 12, p. 411, dated at
Westminster, 26 June 1367[10]
he d. before 6 July 1373:
commission for inquisition post mortem dated at Westminster, 6 July 1373:
' Commission to the said William [de Fyncheden], Richard de Ravensere,
clerk, and John de Stanes, clerk, to find by inquisition in the county
of York what lands and rents Gerard Salvayn, 'chivaler,' and Robert
Salvayn, his son, held of the king in chief, as well in demesne as
in service, on the days on which they died, and how much of other lords
and by what service, how much the lands and rents are worth, at what
times they died, who is the next heir in each case and of what age,
who has occupied the lands and rents and taken the profits from the
time of their death and by what title, and whether the heir of Gerard
or of Robert has been married and by whom. '
[CPR 47 Edw III (1370-1374), mem. 36d, p. 388[13]]
__________________________
re: his lordship of Herswell and the advowson thereof, a record dated
3-4 Hen. IV (1402/03):
' Yorkshire: Particulars of account for parsonage of Harswell, of which
Gerard Salvayn, grandfather of Gerard Salvayn was lord (temp. Edw. II)
and John Monceux the parson of the church.'
[National Archives E 199/50/4[17] ]
cf. CP XI:122, sub _Ros of Wark[2]
Bain IV:381[4], cites Chancery Miscellaneous Portfolios, No. 41/195
Dugdale, Baronage of England (p. 555, Ros of Werke[8])
Spouse: Alice de Gray[11],[23] [evidently 1st wife]
Father: Thomas de Gray, of Heton (-<1343)
Mother: Agnes
Marr: 1325
Children: Sir John (-<1369)
Gerard
1.1.1a.1 Sir John Salvain
----------------------------------------
Death: bef Aug 1369, d.v.p.[12],[11]
heir of his father (d.v.p.)[11]
a dispute of "John Salvayn, 'chivaler' " with Hugh de Hamby and other
burgesses of Kingston-upon-Hull addressed by King Edward III at
Westminster, 6 June 1351 [CPR 25 Edw III (1350-1354), mem. 27, p. 102[18]]
commission dated at Westminster, 20 Nov 1357:
' Commission of oyer and terminer to Ralph de Nevill, John FitzWilliam,
Marmaduke Conestable, Thomas de Seton, William de Fyncheden and John
de Dyngleye, on complaint by John de Wyginton that John Salvayn,
'chivaler', William de Foston and others, assaulted him at
North duffeld, co. York, and carried away his goods. '
[CPR 31 Edw III (1354-1358), mem. 10d., p. 653[16]]
cf. YAS XCI:102-103[12]
___________________________
Burke's Commoners shows his mother to be Agnes de Mauleverer. Rosie
Bevan has shown this to be in error, and the correct descent
(as shown) is based on her post, 'The Grey Sisters of Heton' as he
was found to be a co-heir of his cousin William de Grey of Heton
(d. 1362):
' His [Sir Gerard Salvain's] son and heir was John Salvayn, the coheir of the
Grey inheritence [sic]. However, the Surtees pedigree shows John's mother
to be Agnes da. of Sir Robert Maleverer, fl. 1347. As John Salvayn was
coheir of William de Grey through his mother, the Maleverer identification
looks erroneous.
' Curiously, in Tonge's Visitation of Yorkshire in 1530, the pedigree of "Sir
Rauff Salven, knyght, of Newbegynge" starts with "Syr John Salven maried
the doughter of Graye of Heton, of Northumberland." So a Salvayn/Grey
of Heton marriage was known to have occurred at some point at
that time.'[23]
Children: Sir Gerard Salvain, of North Duffield (ca1357-<1428)
1.1.1a.2 Gerard Salvain
----------------------------------------
of Burnby [Bruneby], co. York
ancestor of the Salvains of Newbigging[11]
Children: George (-1417)
1.1.1b Sir Gerard Salvain* (See above)
----------------------------------------
Spouse: Agnes Mauleverer [2nd wife]
Father: Sir Robert Mauleverer [11]
Mother: Amicia Trussell
Children: Robert (-<1373)
Richard
1.1.1b.1 Robert Salvain[11]
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 6 Jul 1373[13]
son of Sir Gerard Salvain and '1st' wife Agnes
he d. before 6 July 1373:
commission for inquisition post mortem dated at Westminster, 6 July 1373:
' Commission to the said William [de Fyncheden], Richard de Ravensere,
clerk, and John de Stanes, clerk, to find by inquisition in the county
of York what lands and rents Gerard Salvayn, 'chivaler,' and Robert
Salvayn, his son, held of the king in chief, as well in demesne as
in service, on the days on which they died, and how much of other
lords and by what service, how much the lands and rents are worth,
at what times they died, who is the next heir in each case and of
what age, who has occupied the lands and rents and taken the profits
from the time of their death and by what title, and whether the heir
of Gerard or of Robert has been married and by whom. '
[CPR 47 Edw III (1370-1374), mem. 36d, p. 388[13]]
1.1.1b.2 Richard Salvain[11]
----------------------------------------
son of Sir Gerard Salvain and '1st' wife Agnes
cf. YAS XCI:102-103[12]
1. Joseph Bain, ed., "Calendar of Documents relating to Scotland,"
Edinburgh: Her Majesty's General Register House, 1888 (Vol. III),
full title: Calendar of Documents relating to Scotland, Preserved
in Her Majesty's Public Record Office, London.
2. G. E. Cokayne, "The Complete Peerage," 1910 - [microprint, 1982
(Alan Sutton) ], The Complete Peerage of England Scotland Ireland
Great Britain and the United Kingdom.
3. J. Bernard Burke, "Dormant, Abeyant, Forfeited and Extinct Peerages,"
from Genealogy.com Family History: Notable British Families, p. 460
(Ros).
4. Joseph Bain, ed., "Calendar of Documents relating to Scotland,"
Edinburgh: Her Majesty's General Register House, 1888 (Vol. IV),
full title: Calendar of Documents relating to Scotland, Preserved
in Her Majesty's Public Record Office, London.
5. "Edward I," Michael Prestwich, New Haven: Yale University Press,
1997 [in England, originally 1988 -Methuen], Yale English Monarchs
series.
6. G. W. S. Barrow, "Robert Bruce and the Community of the Realm of
Scotland," Edinburgh University Press, 1976 (2nd ed.).
7. Joseph Stevenson, "Documents illustrative of the history of Scotland
from the death of King Alexander the Third to the Accession of Robert
Bruce," Edinburgh: H. M. General Register House, 1870 (Vol. I).
8. William Dugdale, Norroy King of Arms, "The Baronage of England," Tho.
Newcomb [reprint Georg Verlag, New York], London, 1675 [reprint New
York, 1977].
9. Rev. Charles Moor, D.D., F.S.A., "Knights of Edward I," Pubs. of the
Harleian Society, 1929-1930, 3 Vols. (Vols. 80-83 in series).
10. "Calendar of the Patent Rolls," preserved in the Public Record Office,
Edward III. A.D. 1364-1367, London: for the Public Record Office.
11. John Burke, Esq., "A Genealogical and Heraldic History of the
Commoners of Great Britain and Ireland," Genealogy.com Family Archive
Image (Notable British Families), Vol. I, pp. 533-534 (Salvain), 488
(Dugdale), part of compiled work, Burke's American Families with
British Ancestry, (Baltimore: Genealogical Publishing Company, 1975).
12. A. Gooder, Ph.D., "The Parliamentary Representation of the County of
York, 1258-1832, Vol. I," The Yorkshire Archaeological Society,
Record Series, Vol. XCI (1935), Wakefield: Printed for the Society,
1935.
13. "Calendar of the Patent Rolls," preserved in the Public Record
Office, Edward III. A.D. 1370-1374, London: for the Public Record
Office.
14. Richard le Scrope, "De controversia in curia militari inter Ricardum
Le Scrope et Robertum Grosvenor milites," London: Printed by S.
Bentley, 1832, .pdf image files provided by Genealogy.com
http://www.genealogy.com.
15. Rosie Bevan, "Salvayn of Duffield," April 29, 2002,
GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com, cites pedigree of Salvin of Croxdale,
found in, R. Surtees, History and Antiquities of the County Palatine,
of Durham, vol. 4 pp. 117-119.
16. "Calendar of the Patent Rolls," preserved in the Public Record Office,
Edward III. A.D. 1354-1358, London: for the Public Record Office.
17. "The National Archives," URL
http://www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/
18. "Calendar of the Patent Rolls," preserved in the Public Record Office,
Edward III. A.D. 1350-1354, London: for the Public Record Office.
19. William Farrer, Hon.D.Litt., Editor, "Early Yorkshire Charters,"
Ballantyne, Hanson & Co., Edinburgh, 1915-1916, Vol. II (1915)
Vol. III (1916), Vol. XII [the family of Constable of Flamborough],
courtesy Rosie Bevan, Vol. V [Manfield fee, pp. 53-58 ], courtesy
Rosie Bevan, <Re: Avice de Tanfield, wife of Robert Marmion>, SGM,
26 Feb 2002.
20. "Access to Archives," http://www.a2a.pro.gov.uk/
21. "Gazetteer of Markets and Fairs to 1516," http://www.histparl.ac.uk/cmh/gaz/
22. Sir Bernard Burke, ed., " A Genealogical and Heraldic Dictionary of
the Landed Gentry."
23. Rosie Bevan, "The Grey Sisters of Heton," April 29, 2002,
GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com.
* John P. Ravilious
Dear James, et al.,
Thanks for those extracts from the CPR. The Patent Rolls are an
essential source of English genealogy of the period, and it is
fortunate that these are available online as well as in reprint form.
The answer to your first question, the 1348 and 1367 documents
are concerning the same individual. Sir Gerard Salvayn (or Salvain),
of North Duffield, Yorks. was evidently born before 5 Oct 1307, and
died probably in 1373, but before 6 Jul 1373 [see abbreviated
pedigree below]. His heir was his grandson, Gerard [another future
Sir Gerard Salvayn], who was aged 16 at his grandfather's IPM, ergo
he was born ca. 1357 - taken with his grandfather's career, he was
clearly not the Gerard Salvayn of the 1367 exemplification.
As to the Grey area of your 2nd question, Sir John de Grey of
Rotherfield was summoned to Parliament from 15 Nov 1338 by writ
directed 'Johanni de Grey de Rotherfeld,' whereby he is held to have
become Lord Grey of Rotherfield. He died 1 Sept 1359. Details are
in the CP article on Grey of Rotherfield, and Doug Richardson's
Plantagenet Ancestry (refered to on SGM as "RPA"), and likely can
be noted in Leo's "Genealogics" website.
Cheers,
John *
1 Robert de Ros
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 5 Mar 1310, d.s.p.m. (probably in Scotland)[1],[2]
Occ: Lord Ros of Wark
Father: Robert de Ros (-<1274)
Mother: Margaret de Brus (-1307)
of Wark on Tweed, Northumberland
summoned to Parliament from 24 June 1295 by writ directed 'Roberto de
Roos de Werke', thereby held to have become Lord Ros of Wark[3]
in support of Scottish cause against Edward I, resisted at Wark and
defeated forces of his brother, March 1296 (subsequently fled to
Scotland)[5] - Wark taken by forces of Edward I of England[6]
~ evidently continued in his Scots holdings, incl. the lordship
of Sanquhar, Nithsdale after his escape to Scotland in 1296
held lands in Scotland as recorded on 27 April 1296, which had been burnt:
" Robertus de Ros tenet villatam de Car ....w, quae combusta 'est'
et jacet vasta, etc. Et nemo praedictas terras tenet
modo. " [Stevenson II:43[7]]
cf. CP XI:122, sub _Ros of Wark[2]
Bain IV:381[4], cites Chancery Miscellaneous Portfolios, No. 41/195
Dugdale, Baronage of England (p. 555, Ros of Werke[8])
Spouse: Laura (probably de Baliol ?)[2]
Father: [CONJECTURED] Alexander de Baliol, lord of Cavers (-<1311)
Mother: [CONJECTURED] Isabel de Chilham (-1291)
Marr: bef 1292[2]
Children: Margaret (ca1292->1321)
Isabel (ca1295-), m. John de Knockes
1.1 Margaret de Ros
----------------------------------------
Birth: ca 1292, Scotland[2],[1]
Death: aft 26 Dec 1321[9]
elder daughter and coheir:
' b. in Scotland ( Rolls of Parl., vol. i., p. 183). The elder
[daughter], Margaret (aet. 15 in 1307, Cal. Inq. p.m. vol.
iv., no. 427) m. John Salveyn (see Surtees' Durham, vol. iv, City
of Durham, p. 118);..' [CP XI:122, note (a)[2]]
record of her petition to King Edward I for the lands of her
father Robert de Ros, 1306-07:
' 1835. (1) John Salvein and Margarete his wife, and Isabele her
sister pray the K.'s grace herein. Margarete de Ros lately held the manor
of Belethre as dower, of the heritage of Robert de Ros father of said
Margarete and Isabele, whose heirs they are. As she is dead, the
petitioners pray for the manor (notwithstanding that Robert their
father held with the Scots), under the peace with Sir John Comyn
and his adherents.
(2) Robert de Bures shews the K. that for his long service, and
in lieu of 100 marks of land, he received lately a charter of lands in
Scotland, since annulled by the peace made with John Comyn, now
dead, and begs a grant of Belestre manor escheated by Robert de
Brus [Ros ?], extended at 31l. yearly....'
(Endorsed) Rex concessit Roberto de Burs manerium de Belestre
ad totam vitam ipsius Roberti et inde habet cartam Regis. ' [Bain
IV:381[4], cites Chancery Miscellaneous Portfolios, No. 41/195]
order of King Edward II, dated at Berwick, 5 March 1310/11:
' 199. The K. to W. bishop of Worcester, the chancellor. As John de
Knockes the husband of Isabella daughter and one of the heirs of
the late Robert de Ros of Werke, has asked his wife's purparty of
her father's lands both in England and Scotland, and the K. hears
that William son of Sir William de Ros of Hamelake is in possession
of the manor of Werke, he commands that the sheriff of
Northumberland be instructed to summon William to appear before
the K. on the morrow of next Ascension Day, to shew cause why he
should not resign the lands to the claimants under the conditions
granted by the late K. to Sir John Comyn and his adherents.
Berwick-on -Tweed. ' [Bain III:39-40[1], cites Privy Seals
(Tower), 4 Edw. II. File 5]
order of King Edward II to give Margaret de Ros and her husband John
Salvayn seisin of half of her father's lands, dated at London, 30
July 1312:
' 292. The K., referring to the conditions on which his late father
received John Comyn of Badenagh and his Scottish adherents to his
peace - that the late Robert de Ros of Werk was among these, and
John Salvayn and John de Knoches, the husbands of Margaret the
firstborn and Isabella the younger (postnata) daughters and heirs
of said Robert, have represented that their wives were under age
and entitled to the conditions of the peace with Comyn, and were
born and baptized in Scotland, as proved before the Chancellor of
Scotland by its laws and customs, and have offerred their
homage - commands the eschaetor ultra Trent to give John Salvayn,
whose homage he has taken, and Margaret his wife, seisin of their
property, being one half of Robert's lands, retaining the other
half of John de Knoches and his wife till further instructions.
London. ' [Bain III:56[1], cites Close 6 Edw. II. m. 29]
re: seeking seisin in the summer of 1312, they were thwarted: record of
John Salvain's complaint,
'His w. Margaret, d. coh. of Rob. de Ros of Werk, a Scottish rebel, was
born in Scotland, and seeks restoration of her lands, the sub-Escheator
having come to give them seisin of Belestre Manor, Northumb., and the
forester of Belestre having prevented him, 28 Sep 1312.'[9]
cf. CP XI:122, sub _Ros of Wark[2]
Bain IV:381[4], cites Chancery Miscellaneous Portfolios, No. 41/195
Dugdale, Baronage of England (p. 555, Ros of Werke[8])
____________________
re: her husband:
John Salvain (or Salvayn), knt., of Belestre, Northumberland (de jure
uxoris)
according to Burke, heir of his father (d.v.p.)[11]
named as husband of Margaret de Ros by Dugdale[8]
Spouse: John Salvain
Death: bef 13 Mar 1320[11],[9]
Father: Robert Salvayn (-<1297)
Mother: Sibilla Beeston, niece of Sir Roger de Thurkilby (->1286)
Children: Sir Gerard (<1307-<1373)
1.1.1a Sir Gerard Salvain*
----------------------------------------
Birth: bef 5 Oct 1307[12],[11],[9]
Death: bef 6 Jul 1373[13],[14],[12],[11],[15]
knt., of North Duffield and Herswell, co. York
b. before 5 Oct 1307 [he proved his age before 5 Oct 1328: YAS
XCI:102[12], cites CCR 1327-30, p. 327. He was known to have been
ae. 12 at his uncle's death, 1320[9]]
heir of his uncle, Sir Gerard Salvain (Inq.p.m. and F.R.)[9]
Sheriff of Yorkshire, Oct 1349 - Oct 1350 [also escheator]
' Sir Gerard Salvayn, then sheriff of York', witness [together with
Sir Thomas Ughtred, Sir Alexander de Nevill, Sir William Plaicz, Sir
Anketin Salvagn and others] of a charter of Sir Ralph de Nevill,
lord of Raby granting lands in Shirrefhoton, ' for the souls of his
said father [Sir Randolf de Nevill], the lady Eufemia, his mother,
the grantor, Alesia, his wife, and his ancestors, heirs and successors',
dated at Shirrefhoton, 20 April 1350 [letters patent of William,
archbishop of York dated at Cawode, 26 May 1350; Inspeximus and
confirmation by King Edward III at Westminster, 9 Feb 1356/7 - CPR
31 Edw III (1354-1358), mem. 22, p. 510[16]]
record of a grant dated 24 Edw III (between 7 Jan 1349/50 and 6 Jan 1350/51):
C 143/298/10
Gerard Salvayn, knight, to grant messuages and land in
Thorpe-le-Street (Parva Thorp juxta Haiton) to the prior and convent
of Ellerton, retaining the manor of North Duffield. York.
24 EDWARD III. '[17]
'knight of the shire', co. Yorks., Parliament of Feb. 1350/51
[ YAS XCI:102-103[12]]
a dispute of his son "John Salvayn, 'chivaler' " with Hugh de Hamby and
other burgesses of Kingston-upon-Hull addressed by King Edward III at
Westminster, 6 June 1351:
' On the petition of the burgesses of the king's town of
Kyngeston-upon-Hull complaining that John Salvayn, 'chivaler',
Gerard de Lound and others taking to themselves the royal power
came armed to the town and took out of the keeping of the king's
bailiffs of the town some malefactors arrested by them..... and
that Gerard Salvayn, 'chivaler', the said John and Gerard and very
many other their accomplices, by confederacy together, are
scheming to surround the town and kill or do other evil to the
extent of their power to Hugh de Hamby, because he made the
attachment of the malefactors, servants of the said John,...
The king has taken the said Hugh, Geoffrey [de Hamby], Robert
[de Saltfletby] and Walter [de Hamby], the mayor, bailiffs, good men
and other lieges in the town under his special protection.... and if
any one hereafter disregard this protection the king will certainly
punish all such of whatsoever condition in such wise that their
punishment shall be a terror to all in those parts.
By K. on the information of Th[omas] de Brembre. '
[CPR 25 Edw III (1350-1354), mem. 27, p. 102[18]]
held the manor of Belestre, Northumberland [of his mother's inheritance]
before 29 Dec 1355, when King Edward III granted same to Queen Philippa:
' Grant to the king's consort Queen Philippa of the manor of Belestre,
lately recovered by the king against Gerard Salvayn, 'chivaler', by
judgement of the king's court, to hold for her life with the issues
from the day of such recovery. By p.s. '
[CPR 29 Edw III (1354-1358), mem. 2, p. 327[16]]
Sheriff of Yorkshire, 1360-62, 1366-67[19]
' Sir Gerard Salvayn ', witness to gift dated 1361:
' Thomas Dysny of Fosham in Holdernesse & William Youngsmith chaplain
to William son of William de Houton property: all their lands,
tenements, rents & serfs in Houton, Ellerker, Ryplyngham, Sywardby,
Warter & Marton.
Witn. Sir Marmaduke Conestable, Sir Gerard Salvayn, John de Meaux
of Houton, Stephan de Sywardby, Nicholas de Clyf, Nicholas de Etton.
Given at Houton, Mon. in Invention of Holy Cross 1361. Seal, armorial,
a bend.' - A2A, East Riding of Yorkshire Archives and Records Service:
Chichester-Constable Family [DDCC/136 - DDCC2/G], DDCC/149/26/Bb9b[20]
concerning a charter granted by King Henry III (8 Jan 1252/3) for a fair
at North Duffield, co. Yorks.:
'On 5 Nov 1363, Gerard Salvayn, kinsman and heir of Gerard, tenant of
the manor, stated that he and his ancestors had not used the fair
since it was granted by K Edw I. K Edw III granted the fair on vfm
Lawrence (10 Aug) again to Gerard (CChR, 1341-1417, p. 178)'[21]
______________________________
recorded of dispute re: the lands formerly of Robert de Ros, grandfather
of Sir Gerard Salvain, dated 28 & 29 Edw III (ca. 1353/4):
' Parties: Rex v Salvayn Subject: Lands of Robert de Roos of Wark County:
Northumb ' [National Archives C 44/2/9 [17]]
'obtained from the crown the manor of Bellester, in Tyndale, county of
York and an exemplification of the pardon and restitution in blood
granted to his mother (for her father the Lord Ros's treason) by patent,
dated 26 June, 41st Edward III [1368].' [Burke's Landed Gentry,
1054-5[22],[11]]
~ The above also given in essence in CP XI:122, sub _Ros of Wark_
(text given under Margaret de Ros, his mother)[2] . The actual text
is given in CPR 41 Edw III (1364-1367), mem. 12, p. 411, dated at
Westminster, 26 June 1367[10]
he d. before 6 July 1373:
commission for inquisition post mortem dated at Westminster, 6 July 1373:
' Commission to the said William [de Fyncheden], Richard de Ravensere,
clerk, and John de Stanes, clerk, to find by inquisition in the county
of York what lands and rents Gerard Salvayn, 'chivaler,' and Robert
Salvayn, his son, held of the king in chief, as well in demesne as
in service, on the days on which they died, and how much of other lords
and by what service, how much the lands and rents are worth, at what
times they died, who is the next heir in each case and of what age,
who has occupied the lands and rents and taken the profits from the
time of their death and by what title, and whether the heir of Gerard
or of Robert has been married and by whom. '
[CPR 47 Edw III (1370-1374), mem. 36d, p. 388[13]]
__________________________
re: his lordship of Herswell and the advowson thereof, a record dated
3-4 Hen. IV (1402/03):
' Yorkshire: Particulars of account for parsonage of Harswell, of which
Gerard Salvayn, grandfather of Gerard Salvayn was lord (temp. Edw. II)
and John Monceux the parson of the church.'
[National Archives E 199/50/4[17] ]
cf. CP XI:122, sub _Ros of Wark[2]
Bain IV:381[4], cites Chancery Miscellaneous Portfolios, No. 41/195
Dugdale, Baronage of England (p. 555, Ros of Werke[8])
Spouse: Alice de Gray[11],[23] [evidently 1st wife]
Father: Thomas de Gray, of Heton (-<1343)
Mother: Agnes
Marr: 1325
Children: Sir John (-<1369)
Gerard
1.1.1a.1 Sir John Salvain
----------------------------------------
Death: bef Aug 1369, d.v.p.[12],[11]
heir of his father (d.v.p.)[11]
a dispute of "John Salvayn, 'chivaler' " with Hugh de Hamby and other
burgesses of Kingston-upon-Hull addressed by King Edward III at
Westminster, 6 June 1351 [CPR 25 Edw III (1350-1354), mem. 27, p. 102[18]]
commission dated at Westminster, 20 Nov 1357:
' Commission of oyer and terminer to Ralph de Nevill, John FitzWilliam,
Marmaduke Conestable, Thomas de Seton, William de Fyncheden and John
de Dyngleye, on complaint by John de Wyginton that John Salvayn,
'chivaler', William de Foston and others, assaulted him at
North duffeld, co. York, and carried away his goods. '
[CPR 31 Edw III (1354-1358), mem. 10d., p. 653[16]]
cf. YAS XCI:102-103[12]
___________________________
Burke's Commoners shows his mother to be Agnes de Mauleverer. Rosie
Bevan has shown this to be in error, and the correct descent
(as shown) is based on her post, 'The Grey Sisters of Heton' as he
was found to be a co-heir of his cousin William de Grey of Heton
(d. 1362):
' His [Sir Gerard Salvain's] son and heir was John Salvayn, the coheir of the
Grey inheritence [sic]. However, the Surtees pedigree shows John's mother
to be Agnes da. of Sir Robert Maleverer, fl. 1347. As John Salvayn was
coheir of William de Grey through his mother, the Maleverer identification
looks erroneous.
' Curiously, in Tonge's Visitation of Yorkshire in 1530, the pedigree of "Sir
Rauff Salven, knyght, of Newbegynge" starts with "Syr John Salven maried
the doughter of Graye of Heton, of Northumberland." So a Salvayn/Grey
of Heton marriage was known to have occurred at some point at
that time.'[23]
Children: Sir Gerard Salvain, of North Duffield (ca1357-<1428)
1.1.1a.2 Gerard Salvain
----------------------------------------
of Burnby [Bruneby], co. York
ancestor of the Salvains of Newbigging[11]
Children: George (-1417)
1.1.1b Sir Gerard Salvain* (See above)
----------------------------------------
Spouse: Agnes Mauleverer [2nd wife]
Father: Sir Robert Mauleverer [11]
Mother: Amicia Trussell
Children: Robert (-<1373)
Richard
1.1.1b.1 Robert Salvain[11]
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 6 Jul 1373[13]
son of Sir Gerard Salvain and '1st' wife Agnes
he d. before 6 July 1373:
commission for inquisition post mortem dated at Westminster, 6 July 1373:
' Commission to the said William [de Fyncheden], Richard de Ravensere,
clerk, and John de Stanes, clerk, to find by inquisition in the county
of York what lands and rents Gerard Salvayn, 'chivaler,' and Robert
Salvayn, his son, held of the king in chief, as well in demesne as
in service, on the days on which they died, and how much of other
lords and by what service, how much the lands and rents are worth,
at what times they died, who is the next heir in each case and of
what age, who has occupied the lands and rents and taken the profits
from the time of their death and by what title, and whether the heir
of Gerard or of Robert has been married and by whom. '
[CPR 47 Edw III (1370-1374), mem. 36d, p. 388[13]]
1.1.1b.2 Richard Salvain[11]
----------------------------------------
son of Sir Gerard Salvain and '1st' wife Agnes
cf. YAS XCI:102-103[12]
1. Joseph Bain, ed., "Calendar of Documents relating to Scotland,"
Edinburgh: Her Majesty's General Register House, 1888 (Vol. III),
full title: Calendar of Documents relating to Scotland, Preserved
in Her Majesty's Public Record Office, London.
2. G. E. Cokayne, "The Complete Peerage," 1910 - [microprint, 1982
(Alan Sutton) ], The Complete Peerage of England Scotland Ireland
Great Britain and the United Kingdom.
3. J. Bernard Burke, "Dormant, Abeyant, Forfeited and Extinct Peerages,"
from Genealogy.com Family History: Notable British Families, p. 460
(Ros).
4. Joseph Bain, ed., "Calendar of Documents relating to Scotland,"
Edinburgh: Her Majesty's General Register House, 1888 (Vol. IV),
full title: Calendar of Documents relating to Scotland, Preserved
in Her Majesty's Public Record Office, London.
5. "Edward I," Michael Prestwich, New Haven: Yale University Press,
1997 [in England, originally 1988 -Methuen], Yale English Monarchs
series.
6. G. W. S. Barrow, "Robert Bruce and the Community of the Realm of
Scotland," Edinburgh University Press, 1976 (2nd ed.).
7. Joseph Stevenson, "Documents illustrative of the history of Scotland
from the death of King Alexander the Third to the Accession of Robert
Bruce," Edinburgh: H. M. General Register House, 1870 (Vol. I).
8. William Dugdale, Norroy King of Arms, "The Baronage of England," Tho.
Newcomb [reprint Georg Verlag, New York], London, 1675 [reprint New
York, 1977].
9. Rev. Charles Moor, D.D., F.S.A., "Knights of Edward I," Pubs. of the
Harleian Society, 1929-1930, 3 Vols. (Vols. 80-83 in series).
10. "Calendar of the Patent Rolls," preserved in the Public Record Office,
Edward III. A.D. 1364-1367, London: for the Public Record Office.
11. John Burke, Esq., "A Genealogical and Heraldic History of the
Commoners of Great Britain and Ireland," Genealogy.com Family Archive
Image (Notable British Families), Vol. I, pp. 533-534 (Salvain), 488
(Dugdale), part of compiled work, Burke's American Families with
British Ancestry, (Baltimore: Genealogical Publishing Company, 1975).
12. A. Gooder, Ph.D., "The Parliamentary Representation of the County of
York, 1258-1832, Vol. I," The Yorkshire Archaeological Society,
Record Series, Vol. XCI (1935), Wakefield: Printed for the Society,
1935.
13. "Calendar of the Patent Rolls," preserved in the Public Record
Office, Edward III. A.D. 1370-1374, London: for the Public Record
Office.
14. Richard le Scrope, "De controversia in curia militari inter Ricardum
Le Scrope et Robertum Grosvenor milites," London: Printed by S.
Bentley, 1832, .pdf image files provided by Genealogy.com
http://www.genealogy.com.
15. Rosie Bevan, "Salvayn of Duffield," April 29, 2002,
GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com, cites pedigree of Salvin of Croxdale,
found in, R. Surtees, History and Antiquities of the County Palatine,
of Durham, vol. 4 pp. 117-119.
16. "Calendar of the Patent Rolls," preserved in the Public Record Office,
Edward III. A.D. 1354-1358, London: for the Public Record Office.
17. "The National Archives," URL
http://www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/
18. "Calendar of the Patent Rolls," preserved in the Public Record Office,
Edward III. A.D. 1350-1354, London: for the Public Record Office.
19. William Farrer, Hon.D.Litt., Editor, "Early Yorkshire Charters,"
Ballantyne, Hanson & Co., Edinburgh, 1915-1916, Vol. II (1915)
Vol. III (1916), Vol. XII [the family of Constable of Flamborough],
courtesy Rosie Bevan, Vol. V [Manfield fee, pp. 53-58 ], courtesy
Rosie Bevan, <Re: Avice de Tanfield, wife of Robert Marmion>, SGM,
26 Feb 2002.
20. "Access to Archives," http://www.a2a.pro.gov.uk/
21. "Gazetteer of Markets and Fairs to 1516," http://www.histparl.ac.uk/cmh/gaz/
22. Sir Bernard Burke, ed., " A Genealogical and Heraldic Dictionary of
the Landed Gentry."
23. Rosie Bevan, "The Grey Sisters of Heton," April 29, 2002,
GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com.
* John P. Ravilious
-
Gjest
Re: Tempest and Hudleston
In a message dated 6/25/06 6:55:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
j-schuerman@uchicago.edu writes:
<< EBT shows
Catherine Tempest, daughter of Sir Richard Tempest and Mary Talbot (see
below) as the wife of John Huddleston of Millum, co. Cumberland,
married about 1391, giving as a reference Bentham's [? she may be
referring to Betham, which I have not consulted] Baronetage, v. 1, p.
673, note. Evidently this reference refers to Sir Richard Tempest as
of "Bolling" and EBT corrects this to "Bracewell." She also cites a
writ of assize of novel disseisin in May 1377 involving Sir John
Huddleston and Catherine his wife in 32 Dep. Keeper's Rep., p. 348 [?
page number not clear]. >>
The "bef May 1377" date should be preferable to the "about 1391" date also
stated above, as in 1398 Richard was a minor but evidently old enough to
participate in a raid at that time. Seven years old would be a little precocious to
be in a raiding party, in my opinion.
Will Johnson
j-schuerman@uchicago.edu writes:
<< EBT shows
Catherine Tempest, daughter of Sir Richard Tempest and Mary Talbot (see
below) as the wife of John Huddleston of Millum, co. Cumberland,
married about 1391, giving as a reference Bentham's [? she may be
referring to Betham, which I have not consulted] Baronetage, v. 1, p.
673, note. Evidently this reference refers to Sir Richard Tempest as
of "Bolling" and EBT corrects this to "Bracewell." She also cites a
writ of assize of novel disseisin in May 1377 involving Sir John
Huddleston and Catherine his wife in 32 Dep. Keeper's Rep., p. 348 [?
page number not clear]. >>
The "bef May 1377" date should be preferable to the "about 1391" date also
stated above, as in 1398 Richard was a minor but evidently old enough to
participate in a raid at that time. Seven years old would be a little precocious to
be in a raiding party, in my opinion.
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: Salvayn and Roos de Werk Revisited
John a great post as always. I have a question. I've snipped two pieces,
and then I have a question at the bottom
SNIP NUMBER ONE
In a message dated 6/26/06 6:01:37 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Therav3@aol.com
writes:
<< 1 Robert de Ros
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 5 Mar 1310, d.s.p.m. (probably in Scotland)[1],[2]>>
SNIP NUMBER TWO
<< 1.1 Margaret de Ros
record of her petition to King Edward I for the lands of her
father Robert de Ros, 1306-07:
' 1835. (1) John Salvein and Margarete his wife, and Isabele her sister
pray the K.'s grace herein. Margarete de Ros lately held the manor of
Belethre as dower, of the heritage of Robert de Ros father of said Margarete and
Isabele, whose heirs they are. As she is dead, the petitioners pray for the
manor (notwithstanding that Robert their father held with the Scots), under the
peace with Sir John Comyn and his adherents. >>
Would not her "record of petition" 1306-7 mean that her father was dead by
that time? That is, by 1307?
Above in Snip one you have "bef 5 Mar 1310"
Thanks
Will Johnson
and then I have a question at the bottom
SNIP NUMBER ONE
In a message dated 6/26/06 6:01:37 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Therav3@aol.com
writes:
<< 1 Robert de Ros
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 5 Mar 1310, d.s.p.m. (probably in Scotland)[1],[2]>>
SNIP NUMBER TWO
<< 1.1 Margaret de Ros
record of her petition to King Edward I for the lands of her
father Robert de Ros, 1306-07:
' 1835. (1) John Salvein and Margarete his wife, and Isabele her sister
pray the K.'s grace herein. Margarete de Ros lately held the manor of
Belethre as dower, of the heritage of Robert de Ros father of said Margarete and
Isabele, whose heirs they are. As she is dead, the petitioners pray for the
manor (notwithstanding that Robert their father held with the Scots), under the
peace with Sir John Comyn and his adherents. >>
Would not her "record of petition" 1306-7 mean that her father was dead by
that time? That is, by 1307?
Above in Snip one you have "bef 5 Mar 1310"
Thanks
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: Huddleston Family
<< In message of 26 Jun, bales14@tpg.com.au ("Peter") wrote:
Is this Mary Fenwick another wife to Sir John Huddleston of Millom who has an
IPM in 1495 ?
Just while on this line I have a Huddleston line that currently stops at
Sir
John Huddleston (son of Richard) died circ 1493 and who married Mary
Fenwick.
Is this line connected back to the Huddleston's of this thread and can
anybody supply me with the missing ancestors
Is this Mary Fenwick another wife to Sir John Huddleston of Millom who has an
IPM in 1495 ?
-
Gjest
Re: Salvayn and Roos de Werk Revisited
Dear Will,
Margaret and Isabel de Roos making the petition could point to
their father being dead or away, John Comyn of Badenagh who died on 10
February 1306 certainly would have been held to have made his peace with King Edward
I of England by that date if not prior to it. Edward I died 7 July 1307 after
which date He didn`t respond to petitions, so the Roos girls and many others
disliking the manner in which Robert I assumed the crown of Scotland in March
of 1306 went to England and made their peace.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
Margaret and Isabel de Roos making the petition could point to
their father being dead or away, John Comyn of Badenagh who died on 10
February 1306 certainly would have been held to have made his peace with King Edward
I of England by that date if not prior to it. Edward I died 7 July 1307 after
which date He didn`t respond to petitions, so the Roos girls and many others
disliking the manner in which Robert I assumed the crown of Scotland in March
of 1306 went to England and made their peace.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
-
Gjest
Re: Salvayn and Roos de Werk Revisited
Dear John R,
Another CPR abstract Edward III Volume 15 p 241 dated
to October 15, 1372 at Westminister
Commission to Thomas de Metham , John Dayvill and Robert Salvayn
to find by Inquistion in the county of York what lands and rents Gerard
Salvayn, chivalier and Robert his son, both deceased held in chief of the King in
demesne and service in that county on the days of their death and of what lords
and by what service and what those lands and rents are worth yearly, when the
said Gerard and Robert died, who is their nearest heir and of what age, who
have occupied the lands and rents and by what title, and whether their heir is
married or not and if so, by whom and when.
Sincerely,
James W
Cummings
Dixmont, Maine
USA
Another CPR abstract Edward III Volume 15 p 241 dated
to October 15, 1372 at Westminister
Commission to Thomas de Metham , John Dayvill and Robert Salvayn
to find by Inquistion in the county of York what lands and rents Gerard
Salvayn, chivalier and Robert his son, both deceased held in chief of the King in
demesne and service in that county on the days of their death and of what lords
and by what service and what those lands and rents are worth yearly, when the
said Gerard and Robert died, who is their nearest heir and of what age, who
have occupied the lands and rents and by what title, and whether their heir is
married or not and if so, by whom and when.
Sincerely,
James W
Cummings
Dixmont, Maine
USA
-
Gjest
Re: Salvayn and Roos de Werk Revisited
In a message dated 6/26/06 3:14:42 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Jwc1870@aol.com
writes:
<< Another CPR abstract Edward III Volume 15 p 241 dated
to October 15, 1372 at Westminister
Commission to Thomas de Metham , John Dayvill and Robert Salvayn
to find by Inquistion in the county of York what lands and rents Gerard
Salvayn, chivalier and Robert his son, both deceased held in chief of the
King in
demesne and service in that county on the days of their death and of what
lords
and by what service and what those lands and rents are worth yearly, when
the
said Gerard and Robert died, who is their nearest heir and of what age, who
have occupied the lands and rents and by what title, and whether their heir
is
married or not and if so, by whom and when. >>
Can this other Robert, part of the commission be a brother to Gerard ?
It doesn't seem very possible for him to be a nephew, chronologically, and
old enough to serve on a commission
Will Johnson
writes:
<< Another CPR abstract Edward III Volume 15 p 241 dated
to October 15, 1372 at Westminister
Commission to Thomas de Metham , John Dayvill and Robert Salvayn
to find by Inquistion in the county of York what lands and rents Gerard
Salvayn, chivalier and Robert his son, both deceased held in chief of the
King in
demesne and service in that county on the days of their death and of what
lords
and by what service and what those lands and rents are worth yearly, when
the
said Gerard and Robert died, who is their nearest heir and of what age, who
have occupied the lands and rents and by what title, and whether their heir
is
married or not and if so, by whom and when. >>
Can this other Robert, part of the commission be a brother to Gerard ?
It doesn't seem very possible for him to be a nephew, chronologically, and
old enough to serve on a commission
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: Salvayn and Roos de Werk Revisited
Dear Will,
That would also be my thought. Robert Salvayn would fit well
as a brother of Gerard and named for his grandfather Robert de Roos of Werk.
Perhaps Robert Salvayn, son of Gerard was a son by his wife Agnes, daughter of
Robert Mauleverer (see John P Ravilious` recent post in this thread) On the
other hand, Gerard Salvayn may have had more than one son named Robert.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
That would also be my thought. Robert Salvayn would fit well
as a brother of Gerard and named for his grandfather Robert de Roos of Werk.
Perhaps Robert Salvayn, son of Gerard was a son by his wife Agnes, daughter of
Robert Mauleverer (see John P Ravilious` recent post in this thread) On the
other hand, Gerard Salvayn may have had more than one son named Robert.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
-
Nathaniel Taylor
Re: Salvayn and Roos de Werk Revisited -- Grey of Heton
In article <555.5586ee.31d13461@aol.com>, Therav3@aol.com wrote:
I just pricked up my ears at John's very useful digest (after having
long forgot Rosie's excellent 2002 work on the Greys of Heton) because I
seem to have a descent from these Salvayns (to William Wentworth, of New
Hampshire), though my own notes did not contain the correction of
Mauleverer to Grey for the mother of Sir John Salvayn. Now, what, if
anything, is known of the ancestry of Thomas de Grey of Heton (d. by
1343)? Presumably he fits among all those many-branched early Yorkshire
Greys somehow--or is his parentage unknown?
Nat Taylor
a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://www.nltaylor.net/sketchbook/
1.1.1a Sir Gerard Salvain*
----------------------------------------
Birth: bef 5 Oct 1307[12],[11],[9]
Death: bef 6 Jul 1373[13],[14],[12],[11],[15]
knt., of North Duffield and Herswell, co. York
snip
Spouse: Alice de Gray[11],[23] [evidently 1st wife]
Father: Thomas de Gray, of Heton (-<1343)
Mother: Agnes
Marr: 1325
Children: Sir John (-<1369)...
I just pricked up my ears at John's very useful digest (after having
long forgot Rosie's excellent 2002 work on the Greys of Heton) because I
seem to have a descent from these Salvayns (to William Wentworth, of New
Hampshire), though my own notes did not contain the correction of
Mauleverer to Grey for the mother of Sir John Salvayn. Now, what, if
anything, is known of the ancestry of Thomas de Grey of Heton (d. by
1343)? Presumably he fits among all those many-branched early Yorkshire
Greys somehow--or is his parentage unknown?
Nat Taylor
a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://www.nltaylor.net/sketchbook/
-
John H
Re: Edward Greville's brother-in-law, Sir Edmund Tame
As I inherited this database and Brother in law (now deceased), didnt write
down his sources in a lot of cases, I can only answer that it appears to
have come from IGI , BUT the only one I see on IGI is an ancestral file,
which are notoriously inaccurate.
Do you have Edward Tames wife as someone different or are you just wanting
confirmation of what I posted,
assuming you disagree, then please advise on what basis you disagree, so I
can see details and if necessary change my database to correct data.
regards
John H
<WJhonson@aol.com> wrote in message news:4f6.194765c.31d04e2d@aol.com...
down his sources in a lot of cases, I can only answer that it appears to
have come from IGI , BUT the only one I see on IGI is an ancestral file,
which are notoriously inaccurate.
Do you have Edward Tames wife as someone different or are you just wanting
confirmation of what I posted,
assuming you disagree, then please advise on what basis you disagree, so I
can see details and if necessary change my database to correct data.
regards
John H
<WJhonson@aol.com> wrote in message news:4f6.194765c.31d04e2d@aol.com...
In a message dated 6/23/06 7:10:31 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
JohnH4999@hotmail.com writes:
I show in my wife's Greville tree, that an Agnes Greville was married
to
Sir
Edmund Tame
and said Agnes was sister of Sir Edward Greville.
Both being children of John Greville and Lady Ann (nee Forster).
regards John H
John what is the source for
1) naming Edmund's wife Agnes and
2) making her a Greville?
Thanks
Will Johnson
-
Renia
Re: Hereward (was The Fairy Bride)
You should try soc.genealogy.medieval.
celia wrote:
celia wrote:
I think I might have worked out Hereward's family.
Check this out and see if it fits the facts and makes
sense and if it does I will fill in the references and the
missing bits.
I have long thought Osgod Clappa and Wigod of Wallingford
to be brothers, perhaps twins, this is based mainly on land
holdings and the names of the places they hold.
They appear to be closely related to Cypping, perhaps
another brother.
Osgod's daughter married Ralph the Staller then
Tovi the Proud, it was probably Tovi's second marriage.
Wigod's son was Toki who made the tomb for Cypping's
son Aethelweard and as far as I can recall also worked
at Peterborough as a sculptor.
If the Toki who is the father of Abbot Brand is not Toki
son of Auti the moneyer but Toki son of Wigod then
the details of Hereward's family as given in the various
accounts make sense.
Brand's brothers, and Hereward's father and uncles on
his father's side are Asketil, Siworth, Siric, Godric and
perhaps an unrecorded brother named Leofric who
married a great grandaughter or great neice of Duke Oslac
by the name of Aedina or Aediva.
Hereward is related to Ralph the Staller as suggested
as Ralph married his grandfather's sister.
He is well connected as Tovi and Ralph both married
into the royal family.
I can't see anything in this that contradicts the accounts
or that isn't probable. If it isn't ripped to pieces I will
give references.
Celia
-
John H
Re: Edward Greville's brother-in-law, Sir Edmund Tame
From what I have in my database:
Robert Greville c1465 to 7th Feb 1548, who was transferred the Charlton
Kings & Ashley Manor by Sir Edward
was the son of Richard Greville and Eleanor Herbert, and thus not a brother
of Sir Edward.
re Robert, (Sir Edwards brother).
The Robert who was Sir Edward's brother was the husband of Isabel Wyncott
"this" Robert died ?? Sept. 1549 (Buried in Chancellry of Ebourton/Elberton
GLS, along with his wife Isabel)
Roberts Will dated 4/9/1549 proven (1549/181)
++++++
Now back to Edward & the Robert he transferred the land to:
Firstly Edwards line (as I have it).
1)William Greville (Chipping Campden )died 14012)Ludovic Greville
(buried St Peters Drayton church in Alabaster tomb) died 28/8/1438
3)William Greville (also buried St Peters church Drayton in bell tower area)
died c1440 (Justice of the common pleas)
4)Rafe (Ralph /Rudolph) Greville died 1499 Wroxton, Oxon
5)John Greville (Milcote Warks)died c1503/4
6)Sir Edward Greville died c1528/9 buried West church upon Avon Warks.
(Will made 21/6/1528 proved 1/10/1529 (U269 T246/2)).
Robert's Line to whom above Sir Edward transferred said lands etc.
(according to what I have)
1)William Greville died 1401(Wool merchant, buried & brass in St James
Church Chipping Campden)
2)Ludovic Greville (buried St Peters Drayton church in alabaster
tomb/casket ) died 28/8/1438
3)John Greville died Lymington/Lemington GLS
4)Richard Greville died c1513 Lymington/Lemington GLS
5)Robert Greville died 7th Feb 1548 Charlton Kings GLS (husband of Margaret
Arle)
So at a guess (if I worked it out correctly) that means
Robert is the second cousin once removed of Sir Edward.
OR
Sir Edward is the second cousin of Robert once removed.
regards
John H
<WJhonson@aol.com> wrote in message news:4ee.1db5fb2.31d04dd0@aol.com...
Robert Greville c1465 to 7th Feb 1548, who was transferred the Charlton
Kings & Ashley Manor by Sir Edward
was the son of Richard Greville and Eleanor Herbert, and thus not a brother
of Sir Edward.
re Robert, (Sir Edwards brother).
The Robert who was Sir Edward's brother was the husband of Isabel Wyncott
"this" Robert died ?? Sept. 1549 (Buried in Chancellry of Ebourton/Elberton
GLS, along with his wife Isabel)
Roberts Will dated 4/9/1549 proven (1549/181)
++++++
Now back to Edward & the Robert he transferred the land to:
Firstly Edwards line (as I have it).
1)William Greville (Chipping Campden )died 14012)Ludovic Greville
(buried St Peters Drayton church in Alabaster tomb) died 28/8/1438
3)William Greville (also buried St Peters church Drayton in bell tower area)
died c1440 (Justice of the common pleas)
4)Rafe (Ralph /Rudolph) Greville died 1499 Wroxton, Oxon
5)John Greville (Milcote Warks)died c1503/4
6)Sir Edward Greville died c1528/9 buried West church upon Avon Warks.
(Will made 21/6/1528 proved 1/10/1529 (U269 T246/2)).
Robert's Line to whom above Sir Edward transferred said lands etc.
(according to what I have)
1)William Greville died 1401(Wool merchant, buried & brass in St James
Church Chipping Campden)
2)Ludovic Greville (buried St Peters Drayton church in alabaster
tomb/casket ) died 28/8/1438
3)John Greville died Lymington/Lemington GLS
4)Richard Greville died c1513 Lymington/Lemington GLS
5)Robert Greville died 7th Feb 1548 Charlton Kings GLS (husband of Margaret
Arle)
So at a guess (if I worked it out correctly) that means
Robert is the second cousin once removed of Sir Edward.
OR
Sir Edward is the second cousin of Robert once removed.
regards
John H
<WJhonson@aol.com> wrote in message news:4ee.1db5fb2.31d04dd0@aol.com...
In a message dated 6/23/06 6:55:22 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
JohnH4999@hotmail.com writes:
re Robert Greville mentioned above:
Upon Marriage to Margaret (nee Arle), he gained Arle Court. Eventually it
passed to his brother William (Judge of Common Pleas) Approx 1520, Sir
Edward Greville transferred the Charlton Kings and Ashley Manor
properties
to Robert. Will dated 7/2/1548 and was proved before 25th March 1548 (GRO
1548/76) Buried inside of Parish church Charlton Kings although there was
a
family vault at Cheltenham.(CK 1548/9) Surname also shown as "Grevyle" on
will.
With such an early property transfer, this Robert must be his brother ?
Thanks
Will Johnson
-
Renia
Re: Hereward (was The Fairy Bride)
And again.
celia wrote:
celia wrote:
celia wrote:
I think I might have worked out Hereward's family.
Check this out and see if it fits the facts and makes
sense and if it does I will fill in the references and the
missing bits.
I have long thought Osgod Clappa and Wigod of Wallingford
to be brothers, perhaps twins, this is based mainly on land
holdings and the names of the places they hold.
They appear to be closely related to Cypping, perhaps
another brother.
Osgod's daughter married Ralph the Staller then
Tovi the Proud, it was probably Tovi's second marriage.
Wigod's son was Toki who made the tomb for Cypping's
son Aethelweard and as far as I can recall also worked
at Peterborough as a sculptor.
If the Toki who is the father of Abbot Brand is not Toki
son of Auti the moneyer but Toki son of Wigod then
the details of Hereward's family as given in the various
accounts make sense.
Brand's brothers, and Hereward's father and uncles on
his father's side are Asketil, Siworth, Siric, Godric and
perhaps an unrecorded brother named Leofric who
married a great grandaughter or great neice of Duke Oslac
by the name of Aedina or Aediva.
Hereward is related to Ralph the Staller as suggested
as Ralph married his grandfather's sister.
He is well connected as Tovi and Ralph both married
into the royal family.
I can't see anything in this that contradicts the accounts
or that isn't probable. If it isn't ripped to pieces I will
give references.
Well no one came to my rescue by demolishing
the theory so now I'll have to justify it.
Where are you Jamie when I need you ?
My resources for giving sources are very limited
as I have neither a good private nor a good public library.
This means that this is rather rough and ready and if
it's got any mileage will need more research.
I made use of Hereward the Last Englishman
by Peter Rex and Hereward by Victor Head,
They were particularly useful in saving time when
finding references to Hereward. Peter Rex's book
sees Hereward as a grandson of Toki, son of Auti
and a son of Asketil. Victor Head's book leans
towards Hereward being the son of Earl Leofric.
I will go through the information on Hereward's family
starting with the source then commenting on it and
finally showing how it fits into my theory.
The Gesta Herewardi says that Hereward's
father was Leofric of Bourne as does Historia
Croylandensis. (I know both of these are late
and unreliable but lets see where it leads)
DB shows Hereward owning three estates a
couple of miles from Bourne in Lincs but Bourne
itself is shown as owned by Morcar and there is
no indication that it was ever owned by anyone
named Leofric; indeed there is no indication that
anyone of that name owned land nearby.
Because Hereward's manors are nearby no
alternative is ever considered and this is probably
sensible but there is another Bourn that had the
same name when the DB was written and it is in
the heartland of Hereward's resistance to William
in the forest of Brunneswald (named after it) in Cambs.
In the Cambridgeshire Bourn members of the family
that I propose as Hereward's family own land.
There is an 11th c. castle there and earthworks.
Most of the land around Bourn is owned by Eadgifu
who has two goldsmiths as her 'man (or possibly
men of the same names) and I think is the
widow of that name that married a goldsmith.
Ralph owns land in the hundred as do Esgar, Stigand
and Peter de Valognes, and the abbots of Ramsey and Ely.
Esgar, Stigand and possibly Ralph can be fitted into
Hereward's familt tree, Peter de Valognes took over
some goldsmith land and was entrusted with the
care of the elderly goldsmith Sparhavoc by
Queen Edith, Sparhavoc was possibly related to Stigand
as their histories make sense when viewed together
and there lands are near each other.
My argument doesn't stand or fall by which Bourne
belonged to Hereward's father but I think the other
Bourne is worth considering.
The Gesta says Leofric is the son of Earl Ralf Scalre
Freeman interprets this as Ralf the Staller
Croyland says that Leofric was the 'nepos'
of Radin , earl of Hetford whose wife is Goda,
sister of King Edward.
I have Hereward's father as 'nepos' of Ralf the Staller
who is married to Goda.
The Gesta has Hereward's mother as Aedina,
great, great grandaughter of Duke Oslac.
Croyland has his mother as Aediva,
niece of Duke Oslac.
She couldn't have been Duke Oslac's niece but
at this level of society i see no problem with his
wife being related to Oslac.
I considered if Aediva could be a version of the
widow Eadgifu's name, Eadgifu can be spelled
'Eadgiva', is Eadgifu more English ? I don't know
but several members of this family used more than one
name often a Danish and an English name, sometimes
a Norman one, it gets confusing.
Abbot Brand is said to be Hereward's uncle in Croyland
and Annales Burgo Spaldensis,
"Brand, Abbot of Peterborough, paternal uncle of
the said Hereward"
My family tree shows Brand as Hereward's paternal uncle.
Abbot Brand is known to have had four brothers,
Asketil, Siric, Siworth and Godric. Peter Rex considers
that because of age only Asketil is a candidate for
Hereward's father. There isn' a Leofric known.
It is possible that Leofric isn't recorded but just as
likely is that Peter Rex is right about Asketil being
Hereward's father but that he also went by the
more English sounding name of Leofric.
(Actually i'm not sure that it is English)
Two of Brand's brothers are called 'Toki's son'
in the Black Book of Peterborough and a Ramsey
charter cited by Rex.
If instead of Toki. son of Auti this is Toki ,son of Wiggod
allowing for the minor errors that creep in with time
the accounts of Hereward's family are substantially correct.
I know I've missed bits out but my brain has given up.
celia
-
Renia
Re: 2 quarters of good cats
ADRIANCHANNING@aol.com wrote:
Although the original may have been in Latin, there is probably a
published transcription/translation in English which has suffered from
OCR disease.
Thanks to those who solved my cats query. It would seem "oats" is the
answer. However, although not specifically stated, the original text would seem to
have been in latin, both the errors would perhaps have occurred by the copy
typist or scan, whatever. I wonder how long oats last, this payment was made
in March, I guess that's okay — maybe I will do a little test, the closest I
have to "oats" is my breakfast cereal "Oat Crunches" and my garden shed is
perhaps the closest I can come to medieval storage conditions, so I will put
some out there this harvest time and see what they are like next March, but
how do I keep the mice away?
Adrian
Although the original may have been in Latin, there is probably a
published transcription/translation in English which has suffered from
OCR disease.
-
D. Spencer Hines
Re: Lady Godiva [fl. 1040-1080]?
Anyone descended from Joan The Fair Maid of Kent, wife of the Black Prince,
is allegedly a descendant of Lady Godiva [Godgifu] ---- so that's hundreds
of thousands of us, at the least.
George Walker Bush, who will be 60 on July 6, is also allegedly a
descendant.
Queen Victoria, Edward VII and Queen Elizabeth II -- are some of the most
popular folks at the parties.
Prince Charles and Camilla are both allegedly descendants, of course, as are
the boys.
The Reunion Parties are rather crowded but I usually get in a few
semi-private moments with Great-Grandmother Godiva. Last year I asked her
about the long hair and the stirrups.
<G>
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Semper Fidelis
is allegedly a descendant of Lady Godiva [Godgifu] ---- so that's hundreds
of thousands of us, at the least.
George Walker Bush, who will be 60 on July 6, is also allegedly a
descendant.
Queen Victoria, Edward VII and Queen Elizabeth II -- are some of the most
popular folks at the parties.
Prince Charles and Camilla are both allegedly descendants, of course, as are
the boys.
The Reunion Parties are rather crowded but I usually get in a few
semi-private moments with Great-Grandmother Godiva. Last year I asked her
about the long hair and the stirrups.
<G>
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Semper Fidelis
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: Edward Greville's brother-in-law, Sir Edmund Tame
Dear John ~
I believe there were two Sir Edmund Tames in succession, they being
father and son. I believe the elder Sir Edmund Tame, of Fairford,
Gloucestershire, died in 1534, as per his brass. He was married twice.
He appears to have been survived by a wife named Elizabeth, as
indicated by the Chancery Proceeding item below dated 1544-1551:
C 1/1128/50-51: Thomas, John and Edward, sons of Anthony HUNGREFORD,
knight, and others, v. Thomas BRUDENELL, knight, executor of Elizabeth,
late the wife of Edmund Tame, knight.: Legacies of sheep.: GLOUCESTER.
Date: 1544-1551 [Source: National Archives catalogue,
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/search.asp).
I believe the younger Sir Edmund Tame was married to Katherine Dennis.
The younger Sir Edmund Tame appears to have had no issue. His heir was
his sister, Margaret Tame, who married in 1528 Sir Humphrey Stafford.
I note that Sir Edward Greville's will dated 1528 mentions his sister,
Elizabeth, and his brother-in-law, Sir Edmund Tame. It is tempting to
think that Sir Edward Greville's sister was Elizabeth, wife of Sir
Edmund Tame, named in the Chancery record above. By any chance, do you
have any particulars on Elizabeth, wife of Sir Edmund Tame?
One other question for John: In your posts, you have twice referred to
a source for Sir Edward Greville and his first wife, Anne Denton, which
you have identified only as D1224. What is this source?
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www. royalancestry. net
I believe there were two Sir Edmund Tames in succession, they being
father and son. I believe the elder Sir Edmund Tame, of Fairford,
Gloucestershire, died in 1534, as per his brass. He was married twice.
He appears to have been survived by a wife named Elizabeth, as
indicated by the Chancery Proceeding item below dated 1544-1551:
C 1/1128/50-51: Thomas, John and Edward, sons of Anthony HUNGREFORD,
knight, and others, v. Thomas BRUDENELL, knight, executor of Elizabeth,
late the wife of Edmund Tame, knight.: Legacies of sheep.: GLOUCESTER.
Date: 1544-1551 [Source: National Archives catalogue,
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/search.asp).
I believe the younger Sir Edmund Tame was married to Katherine Dennis.
The younger Sir Edmund Tame appears to have had no issue. His heir was
his sister, Margaret Tame, who married in 1528 Sir Humphrey Stafford.
I note that Sir Edward Greville's will dated 1528 mentions his sister,
Elizabeth, and his brother-in-law, Sir Edmund Tame. It is tempting to
think that Sir Edward Greville's sister was Elizabeth, wife of Sir
Edmund Tame, named in the Chancery record above. By any chance, do you
have any particulars on Elizabeth, wife of Sir Edmund Tame?
One other question for John: In your posts, you have twice referred to
a source for Sir Edward Greville and his first wife, Anne Denton, which
you have identified only as D1224. What is this source?
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www. royalancestry. net
-
Betty Owen
Re: Lady Godiva [fl. 1040-1080]?
Do we know where she is buried?
Betty
----- Original Message -----
From: <MardiM2@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2006 10:43 AM
Subject: Re: Lady Godiva [fl. 1040-1080]?
Betty
----- Original Message -----
From: <MardiM2@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2006 10:43 AM
Subject: Re: Lady Godiva [fl. 1040-1080]?
David H wrote:
Going back to topic, I wonder if British science is advanced enough
to secure DNA from Lady Godiva's crypt and to create a clone. Then
we can see for ourselves if her hair can grow long enough to cover
those areas forbidden by the Quran.
Though you will never know for sure, I can say that it's quite possible.
My
own hair is five and a half feet long, and I'm five foot eight.
Mardi
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Betty Owen
Re: Hereward (was The Fairy Bride)
aCtually,
there is a whole book written on this genealogical theory
It is written by Peter Rex ..
Betty
----- Original Message -----
From: "Renia" <renia@DELETEotenet.gr>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2006 2:42 AM
Subject: Re: Hereward (was The Fairy Bride)
there is a whole book written on this genealogical theory
It is written by Peter Rex ..
Betty
----- Original Message -----
From: "Renia" <renia@DELETEotenet.gr>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2006 2:42 AM
Subject: Re: Hereward (was The Fairy Bride)
And again.
celia wrote:
celia wrote:
I think I might have worked out Hereward's family.
Check this out and see if it fits the facts and makes
sense and if it does I will fill in the references and the
missing bits.
I have long thought Osgod Clappa and Wigod of Wallingford
to be brothers, perhaps twins, this is based mainly on land
holdings and the names of the places they hold.
They appear to be closely related to Cypping, perhaps
another brother.
Osgod's daughter married Ralph the Staller then
Tovi the Proud, it was probably Tovi's second marriage.
Wigod's son was Toki who made the tomb for Cypping's
son Aethelweard and as far as I can recall also worked
at Peterborough as a sculptor.
If the Toki who is the father of Abbot Brand is not Toki
son of Auti the moneyer but Toki son of Wigod then
the details of Hereward's family as given in the various
accounts make sense.
Brand's brothers, and Hereward's father and uncles on
his father's side are Asketil, Siworth, Siric, Godric and
perhaps an unrecorded brother named Leofric who
married a great grandaughter or great neice of Duke Oslac
by the name of Aedina or Aediva.
Hereward is related to Ralph the Staller as suggested
as Ralph married his grandfather's sister.
He is well connected as Tovi and Ralph both married
into the royal family.
I can't see anything in this that contradicts the accounts
or that isn't probable. If it isn't ripped to pieces I will
give references.
Well no one came to my rescue by demolishing
the theory so now I'll have to justify it.
Where are you Jamie when I need you ?
My resources for giving sources are very limited
as I have neither a good private nor a good public library.
This means that this is rather rough and ready and if
it's got any mileage will need more research.
I made use of Hereward the Last Englishman
by Peter Rex and Hereward by Victor Head,
They were particularly useful in saving time when
finding references to Hereward. Peter Rex's book
sees Hereward as a grandson of Toki, son of Auti
and a son of Asketil. Victor Head's book leans
towards Hereward being the son of Earl Leofric.
I will go through the information on Hereward's family
starting with the source then commenting on it and
finally showing how it fits into my theory.
The Gesta Herewardi says that Hereward's
father was Leofric of Bourne as does Historia
Croylandensis. (I know both of these are late
and unreliable but lets see where it leads)
DB shows Hereward owning three estates a
couple of miles from Bourne in Lincs but Bourne
itself is shown as owned by Morcar and there is
no indication that it was ever owned by anyone
named Leofric; indeed there is no indication that
anyone of that name owned land nearby.
Because Hereward's manors are nearby no
alternative is ever considered and this is probably
sensible but there is another Bourn that had the
same name when the DB was written and it is in
the heartland of Hereward's resistance to William
in the forest of Brunneswald (named after it) in Cambs.
In the Cambridgeshire Bourn members of the family
that I propose as Hereward's family own land.
There is an 11th c. castle there and earthworks.
Most of the land around Bourn is owned by Eadgifu
who has two goldsmiths as her 'man (or possibly
men of the same names) and I think is the
widow of that name that married a goldsmith.
Ralph owns land in the hundred as do Esgar, Stigand
and Peter de Valognes, and the abbots of Ramsey and Ely.
Esgar, Stigand and possibly Ralph can be fitted into
Hereward's familt tree, Peter de Valognes took over
some goldsmith land and was entrusted with the
care of the elderly goldsmith Sparhavoc by
Queen Edith, Sparhavoc was possibly related to Stigand
as their histories make sense when viewed together
and there lands are near each other.
My argument doesn't stand or fall by which Bourne
belonged to Hereward's father but I think the other
Bourne is worth considering.
The Gesta says Leofric is the son of Earl Ralf Scalre
Freeman interprets this as Ralf the Staller
Croyland says that Leofric was the 'nepos'
of Radin , earl of Hetford whose wife is Goda,
sister of King Edward.
I have Hereward's father as 'nepos' of Ralf the Staller
who is married to Goda.
The Gesta has Hereward's mother as Aedina,
great, great grandaughter of Duke Oslac.
Croyland has his mother as Aediva,
niece of Duke Oslac.
She couldn't have been Duke Oslac's niece but
at this level of society i see no problem with his
wife being related to Oslac.
I considered if Aediva could be a version of the
widow Eadgifu's name, Eadgifu can be spelled
'Eadgiva', is Eadgifu more English ? I don't know
but several members of this family used more than one
name often a Danish and an English name, sometimes
a Norman one, it gets confusing.
Abbot Brand is said to be Hereward's uncle in Croyland
and Annales Burgo Spaldensis,
"Brand, Abbot of Peterborough, paternal uncle of
the said Hereward"
My family tree shows Brand as Hereward's paternal uncle.
Abbot Brand is known to have had four brothers,
Asketil, Siric, Siworth and Godric. Peter Rex considers
that because of age only Asketil is a candidate for
Hereward's father. There isn' a Leofric known.
It is possible that Leofric isn't recorded but just as
likely is that Peter Rex is right about Asketil being
Hereward's father but that he also went by the
more English sounding name of Leofric.
(Actually i'm not sure that it is English)
Two of Brand's brothers are called 'Toki's son'
in the Black Book of Peterborough and a Ramsey
charter cited by Rex.
If instead of Toki. son of Auti this is Toki ,son of Wiggod
allowing for the minor errors that creep in with time
the accounts of Hereward's family are substantially correct.
I know I've missed bits out but my brain has given up.
celia
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alden@mindspring.com
Re: Edward Greville's brother-in-law, Sir Edmund Tame
For one of the other Tame heiresses see VCH Gloucester, Vol. XI (1976)
pps 264-269:
"The estate later called the manor of UPTON originated as the portion
settled by William de Breuse (d. 1211) on the marriage of his daughter
Bertha to William Beauchamp, lord of Elmley Castle (Worcs.); (fn. 5) in
1221 Reynold de Breuse confirmed a large estate, described as a moiety
of Tetbury manor, to William's son Walter (fn. 6) (d. 1235). It passed
to Walter's son William (d. 1269) and to William's son (fn. 7) William
Beauchamp, earl of Warwick (d. 1298), who sold it to his tenant John de
Thorndon. (fn.
In 1386 Upton manor was held for life by Edith, widow
of a later John de Thorndon, with remainder to Robert of Charlton and
his wife Catherine. (fn. 9) In 1442 Alice Thorndon held it in dower.
(fn. 10) It was later acquired by John Limerick, whose widow Elizabeth
and her husband Henry Ketelby held it in 1499 when John's brother and
heir, William Limerick, sold the reversion to Edmund Tame (fn. 11) of
Fairford. Edmund (d. 1534) left it to his wife Elizabeth (fn. 12) who
died in 1545. (fn. 13) Her son Edmund had died without issue and at a
partition made among his three sisters in 1547 Upton manor was assigned
to Alice, who married Thomas Verney of Compton Verney (Warws.). (fn.
14) Alice died in 1549 and Thomas in 1557, (fn. 15) and the manor
passed to their son Sir Richard Verney (d. 1567) and to Sir Richard's
son George (fn. 16) (d. 1574), whose heir Richard was a minor. (fn. 17)
In 1597 Richard Verney, the elder, and Richard Verney, the younger,
conveyed Upton to George Huntley (fn. 18) of Frocester, later Sir
George, who alienated most of the land. (fn. 19) The manor and the
small estate remaining (fn. 20) descended with Woodchester (fn. 21)
until 1844 when Earl Ducie sold it with Charlton manor and 943 a.,
lying mainly in Charlton, to R. S. Holford of Westonbirt. (fn. 22) The
land was sold by the Westonbirt estate in the mid 1920s (fn. 23) but
the trustees of Sir George Holford were still regarded as lords of the
two manors in 1939. (fn. 24)"
Doug Smith
pps 264-269:
"The estate later called the manor of UPTON originated as the portion
settled by William de Breuse (d. 1211) on the marriage of his daughter
Bertha to William Beauchamp, lord of Elmley Castle (Worcs.); (fn. 5) in
1221 Reynold de Breuse confirmed a large estate, described as a moiety
of Tetbury manor, to William's son Walter (fn. 6) (d. 1235). It passed
to Walter's son William (d. 1269) and to William's son (fn. 7) William
Beauchamp, earl of Warwick (d. 1298), who sold it to his tenant John de
Thorndon. (fn.
of a later John de Thorndon, with remainder to Robert of Charlton and
his wife Catherine. (fn. 9) In 1442 Alice Thorndon held it in dower.
(fn. 10) It was later acquired by John Limerick, whose widow Elizabeth
and her husband Henry Ketelby held it in 1499 when John's brother and
heir, William Limerick, sold the reversion to Edmund Tame (fn. 11) of
Fairford. Edmund (d. 1534) left it to his wife Elizabeth (fn. 12) who
died in 1545. (fn. 13) Her son Edmund had died without issue and at a
partition made among his three sisters in 1547 Upton manor was assigned
to Alice, who married Thomas Verney of Compton Verney (Warws.). (fn.
14) Alice died in 1549 and Thomas in 1557, (fn. 15) and the manor
passed to their son Sir Richard Verney (d. 1567) and to Sir Richard's
son George (fn. 16) (d. 1574), whose heir Richard was a minor. (fn. 17)
In 1597 Richard Verney, the elder, and Richard Verney, the younger,
conveyed Upton to George Huntley (fn. 18) of Frocester, later Sir
George, who alienated most of the land. (fn. 19) The manor and the
small estate remaining (fn. 20) descended with Woodchester (fn. 21)
until 1844 when Earl Ducie sold it with Charlton manor and 943 a.,
lying mainly in Charlton, to R. S. Holford of Westonbirt. (fn. 22) The
land was sold by the Westonbirt estate in the mid 1920s (fn. 23) but
the trustees of Sir George Holford were still regarded as lords of the
two manors in 1939. (fn. 24)"
Doug Smith
-
alden@mindspring.com
Re: Edward Greville's brother-in-law, Sir Edmund Tame
alden@mindspring.com wrote:
Also that Edmund was married to Elizabeth and that their were three
heiresses.
For one of the other Tame heiresses see VCH Gloucester, Vol. XI (1976)
pps 264-269:
"The estate later called the manor of UPTON originated as the portion
settled by William de Breuse (d. 1211) on the marriage of his daughter
Bertha to William Beauchamp, lord of Elmley Castle (Worcs.); (fn. 5) in
1221 Reynold de Breuse confirmed a large estate, described as a moiety
of Tetbury manor, to William's son Walter (fn. 6) (d. 1235). It passed
to Walter's son William (d. 1269) and to William's son (fn. 7) William
Beauchamp, earl of Warwick (d. 1298), who sold it to his tenant John de
Thorndon. (fn.In 1386 Upton manor was held for life by Edith, widow
of a later John de Thorndon, with remainder to Robert of Charlton and
his wife Catherine. (fn. 9) In 1442 Alice Thorndon held it in dower.
(fn. 10) It was later acquired by John Limerick, whose widow Elizabeth
and her husband Henry Ketelby held it in 1499 when John's brother and
heir, William Limerick, sold the reversion to Edmund Tame (fn. 11) of
Fairford. Edmund (d. 1534) left it to his wife Elizabeth (fn. 12) who
died in 1545. (fn. 13) Her son Edmund had died without issue and at a
partition made among his three sisters in 1547 Upton manor was assigned
to Alice, who married Thomas Verney of Compton Verney (Warws.). (fn.
14) Alice died in 1549 and Thomas in 1557, (fn. 15) and the manor
passed to their son Sir Richard Verney (d. 1567) and to Sir Richard's
son George (fn. 16) (d. 1574), whose heir Richard was a minor. (fn. 17)
In 1597 Richard Verney, the elder, and Richard Verney, the younger,
conveyed Upton to George Huntley (fn. 18) of Frocester, later Sir
George, who alienated most of the land. (fn. 19) The manor and the
small estate remaining (fn. 20) descended with Woodchester (fn. 21)
until 1844 when Earl Ducie sold it with Charlton manor and 943 a.,
lying mainly in Charlton, to R. S. Holford of Westonbirt. (fn. 22) The
land was sold by the Westonbirt estate in the mid 1920s (fn. 23) but
the trustees of Sir George Holford were still regarded as lords of the
two manors in 1939. (fn. 24)"
Doug Smith
Also that Edmund was married to Elizabeth and that their were three
heiresses.