Blount-Ayala
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Gjest
Re: William Brenchley
In a message dated 5/30/06 8:35:25 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
charcsmith@verizon.net writes:
<< She also mentions that Sir Thomas Kayell be preferred to the sale of her
home. Could this be Thomas Cralle, her kinsman
According to the archives she mentions her son Richard Brenschley and
evidently he was deceased before his mother. Also probably a son John, but they
must of have predeceased her. >>
Again in the will posted, there is no mention of any Kayell (Cralle) and no
mention of a Richard Brenchley.
Will Johnson
charcsmith@verizon.net writes:
<< She also mentions that Sir Thomas Kayell be preferred to the sale of her
home. Could this be Thomas Cralle, her kinsman
According to the archives she mentions her son Richard Brenschley and
evidently he was deceased before his mother. Also probably a son John, but they
must of have predeceased her. >>
Again in the will posted, there is no mention of any Kayell (Cralle) and no
mention of a Richard Brenchley.
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: William Brenchley
In a message dated 5/30/06 8:35:25 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
charcsmith@verizon.net writes:
<< Thomas de Codyng, whose son John married Joan, daughter of Wm
Batisfod(and subsequently
wife of Sr Wm Brenchlly) and died before 1382, when the reversion of that
moiety, then held for life by Wm Batisford, was conveyed to Roger Ashburnham(
Fleet of F sussex Mich6 rich II. The manor they are discussing is the manor
of BuckholtThis was sent to me by Ana Luppertz who published abut the manor
of Knelle and had this reference.
from British archives AMSS5789/50 dated 2 July 1370
Witness: William de Etchyngham, andew peverell, John Walays, Thomas
Lewkenore, john de St. Clere, Edard Dalyngrigg knights; John wardeduex of Bodiam,
William de Batisford, John de Coundenne, ralphe atte Levere, John Farenburgh
same: witness Wartling; William de St. Legere son of John de St.
Legere of coudenne(Cowden in Wartling) to Thomas de hoo lord of Wartling These
are in reference to the sale and quitclaim of arms. >>
This 1370 document seems too early to be discussing Joan who left a will in
1453
Even her alledged marriage "before 1382" is awfully early. I'm just not
seeing that this is possible with the documentation you've stated so far.
Will
charcsmith@verizon.net writes:
<< Thomas de Codyng, whose son John married Joan, daughter of Wm
Batisfod(and subsequently
wife of Sr Wm Brenchlly) and died before 1382, when the reversion of that
moiety, then held for life by Wm Batisford, was conveyed to Roger Ashburnham(
Fleet of F sussex Mich6 rich II. The manor they are discussing is the manor
of BuckholtThis was sent to me by Ana Luppertz who published abut the manor
of Knelle and had this reference.
from British archives AMSS5789/50 dated 2 July 1370
Witness: William de Etchyngham, andew peverell, John Walays, Thomas
Lewkenore, john de St. Clere, Edard Dalyngrigg knights; John wardeduex of Bodiam,
William de Batisford, John de Coundenne, ralphe atte Levere, John Farenburgh
same: witness Wartling; William de St. Legere son of John de St.
Legere of coudenne(Cowden in Wartling) to Thomas de hoo lord of Wartling These
are in reference to the sale and quitclaim of arms. >>
This 1370 document seems too early to be discussing Joan who left a will in
1453
Even her alledged marriage "before 1382" is awfully early. I'm just not
seeing that this is possible with the documentation you've stated so far.
Will
-
Gjest
Re: Brenchley
In a message dated 5/30/06 11:24:59 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
charcsmith@verizon.net writes:
<< VCH Sussex, hastings ape, the Manor of Buckholt John Assheby,
cousin and heir of John Haket, granted the manor in 1365 to Wm Batisford. In 1423
the manor was held by Joan Brenchesle,(Suss Arch Coll X 144,Feudal Aids)
daughter and heir of Wm Batisford. Joan lived until 1453 and the next year
possession of the manor was disputed between >>
I have found a document in A2A which disputes this descent, and I present it
below.
Will Johnson
----------------------------------------------
East Sussex Record Office: Archive of the Norton and Owens of Families of Rye
ARCHIVE OF THE NORTON AND OWENS FAMILIES OF RYE
Catalogue Ref. NOR
Creator(s): Norton family of Rye, East Sussex
Owens family of Rye, East Sussex
Papers relating to the administration of the Powell estate
The manors of Bodiam and Ewhurst
The manor of Ewhurst
Accounts
[from Administrative History] The two accounts from the 1380s (NOR/18/3,
NOR/4) relate to a period when the manor was held in moieties by William de
Batsford and Roger Ashburnham. The expenditure sections of both accounts are
divided, the first part consisting of sums for which Ashburnham, the accountant's
lord, is responsible for a moiety only. The third account, which refers to
payments made to the lady at Buckholt in Bexhill, shows that the division remained
in effect in 1426, since the lady in question must be William Batsford's
daughter Joan Brenchley. This does not accord with the descent offered by VCH. By
1444-1445, the date of the fourth account, both moieties were in the hands of
the Ashburnham family, and indeed its recital of the grant of annuity of £9 to
Joan Brenchley in the latter year suggests that the purchase was made at that
date. The possession of the manor was the subject of litigation (for which see
NOR/18/7-11), which probably accounts for the survival of these documents.
FILE - Account of William Mot, beadle - ref. NOR/18/5 - date: 29 Sep 1426 -
29 Sep 1427
[from Scope and Content] The account includes payments made to the lady [Joan
Brenchley] at Buckholt [in Bexhill]
charcsmith@verizon.net writes:
<< VCH Sussex, hastings ape, the Manor of Buckholt John Assheby,
cousin and heir of John Haket, granted the manor in 1365 to Wm Batisford. In 1423
the manor was held by Joan Brenchesle,(Suss Arch Coll X 144,Feudal Aids)
daughter and heir of Wm Batisford. Joan lived until 1453 and the next year
possession of the manor was disputed between >>
I have found a document in A2A which disputes this descent, and I present it
below.
Will Johnson
----------------------------------------------
East Sussex Record Office: Archive of the Norton and Owens of Families of Rye
ARCHIVE OF THE NORTON AND OWENS FAMILIES OF RYE
Catalogue Ref. NOR
Creator(s): Norton family of Rye, East Sussex
Owens family of Rye, East Sussex
Papers relating to the administration of the Powell estate
The manors of Bodiam and Ewhurst
The manor of Ewhurst
Accounts
[from Administrative History] The two accounts from the 1380s (NOR/18/3,
NOR/4) relate to a period when the manor was held in moieties by William de
Batsford and Roger Ashburnham. The expenditure sections of both accounts are
divided, the first part consisting of sums for which Ashburnham, the accountant's
lord, is responsible for a moiety only. The third account, which refers to
payments made to the lady at Buckholt in Bexhill, shows that the division remained
in effect in 1426, since the lady in question must be William Batsford's
daughter Joan Brenchley. This does not accord with the descent offered by VCH. By
1444-1445, the date of the fourth account, both moieties were in the hands of
the Ashburnham family, and indeed its recital of the grant of annuity of £9 to
Joan Brenchley in the latter year suggests that the purchase was made at that
date. The possession of the manor was the subject of litigation (for which see
NOR/18/7-11), which probably accounts for the survival of these documents.
FILE - Account of William Mot, beadle - ref. NOR/18/5 - date: 29 Sep 1426 -
29 Sep 1427
[from Scope and Content] The account includes payments made to the lady [Joan
Brenchley] at Buckholt [in Bexhill]
-
Nathaniel Taylor
Re: OT: 2006 Brayton/Reed book
In article
<FB076C5E4E4A5F4981628F6C6530397E0A4B5B@iu-mssg-mbx105.ads.iu.edu>,
jduvall@iupui.edu ("JDUVALL") wrote:
A me too post. I don't see it on line anywhere. Can you provide
publication / access details, and some hint of scope of contents?
Should be welcome here, especially if the work evaluates paths to
medieval ancestry.
Nat Taylor
a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/
<FB076C5E4E4A5F4981628F6C6530397E0A4B5B@iu-mssg-mbx105.ads.iu.edu>,
jduvall@iupui.edu ("JDUVALL") wrote:
Tony Hoskins wrote:
... some of you may
be aware of this already by virtue of _English Origins of Virginia
Tidewater Families_, 2006, by John Anderson and Paul C. Reed.
I know that this OT and will probably drive at least some members of the
list batty, but ... I'm quite
curious to find out more about this new (2006) publication Tony Hoskins
mentioned in his post on Dorothy Beresford Brodnax (*English Origins of
Virginia Tidewater Families*) by John Anderson Brayton and Paul C. Reed.
When was it published (it's not in WorldCat)? Is there a list of the
families included in the book posted somewhere?
A me too post. I don't see it on line anywhere. Can you provide
publication / access details, and some hint of scope of contents?
Should be welcome here, especially if the work evaluates paths to
medieval ancestry.
Nat Taylor
a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/
-
JDUVALL
RE: OT: 2006 Brayton/Reed book
I know that this OT and will probably drive at least some members of the
list batty, but as someone with more than a few ancestors who settled
(or appeared, at any rate) in Virginia in the 17th century, I'm quite
curious to find out more about this new (2006) publication Tony Hoskins
mentioned in his post on Dorothy Beresford Brodnax (*English Origins of
Virginia Tidewater Families*) by John Anderson Brayton and Paul C. Reed.
When was it published (it's not in WorldCat)? Is there a list of the
families included in the book posted somewhere?
Thanks
Jeff Duvall
-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Hoskins [mailto:hoskins@sonoma.lib.ca.us]
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 5:18 PM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: New 17th century American "Royal Gateway": Dorothy
(Beresford)Brodnax
Dorothy (Beresford) Brodnax (d. aft 23 July 1657) of Godmersham, Kent
and York County, Virginia.
Unsure whether this has been discussed already. If not, some of you may
be aware of this already by virtue of _English Origins of Virginia
Tidewater Families_, 2006, by John Anderson and Paul C. Reed. But,
perhaps this news might be more widely disseminated. As
Secretary-Treasurer of the "Royal Bastards" ["Descendants of the
Illegitimate Sons and Daughters of the Kings of Britain"], we recently
accepted a lineage based on this new work.
Leo's site shows Dorothy (Beresford) Brodnax' ancestry:
http://www.genealogics.org/ahnentafel.p ... ree=LEO&pa
rentset=0&generations=8
Tony
Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404
707/545-0831, ext. 562
list batty, but as someone with more than a few ancestors who settled
(or appeared, at any rate) in Virginia in the 17th century, I'm quite
curious to find out more about this new (2006) publication Tony Hoskins
mentioned in his post on Dorothy Beresford Brodnax (*English Origins of
Virginia Tidewater Families*) by John Anderson Brayton and Paul C. Reed.
When was it published (it's not in WorldCat)? Is there a list of the
families included in the book posted somewhere?
Thanks
Jeff Duvall
-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Hoskins [mailto:hoskins@sonoma.lib.ca.us]
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 5:18 PM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: New 17th century American "Royal Gateway": Dorothy
(Beresford)Brodnax
Dorothy (Beresford) Brodnax (d. aft 23 July 1657) of Godmersham, Kent
and York County, Virginia.
Unsure whether this has been discussed already. If not, some of you may
be aware of this already by virtue of _English Origins of Virginia
Tidewater Families_, 2006, by John Anderson and Paul C. Reed. But,
perhaps this news might be more widely disseminated. As
Secretary-Treasurer of the "Royal Bastards" ["Descendants of the
Illegitimate Sons and Daughters of the Kings of Britain"], we recently
accepted a lineage based on this new work.
Leo's site shows Dorothy (Beresford) Brodnax' ancestry:
http://www.genealogics.org/ahnentafel.p ... ree=LEO&pa
rentset=0&generations=8
Tony
Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404
707/545-0831, ext. 562
-
Douglas Richardson
Royal Ancestry of Dorothy (Beresford) Brodnax
Dear Jeff ~
I submitted the new Dorothy (Beresford) Brodnax line to Gary Boyd
Roberts for inclusion in his newly revised book, Royal Descents of 600
Immigrants. I just checked my copy of Roberts' book and found Dorothy
listed on page 860, with connecting ancestry on page 282. My research
on the Brodnax line was done for two of my clients, Dr. Dykes and Mr.
Johnson.
Mr. Johnson has since joined the well known hereditary society,
Descendants of the Illegitimate Sons and Daughters of the Kings of
Britain (a/k/a Royal Bastards) through his descent from Dorothy
(Beresford) Brodnax. If anyone is interested in joining this
organization, I suggest they contact Tony Hoskins offlist about
membership at (707) 545-0831, ext. 562.
The ancestral line of Dorothy (Beresford) Brodnax is one of the best
documented royal descents that I've ever encountered.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www. royalancestry. net
"JDUVALL" wrote:
< I know that this OT and will probably drive at least some members of
the
< list batty, but as someone with more than a few ancestors who settled
< (or appeared, at any rate) in Virginia in the 17th century, I'm quite
< curious to find out more about this new (2006) publication Tony
Hoskins
< mentioned in his post on Dorothy Beresford Brodnax (*English Origins
of
< Virginia Tidewater Families*) by John Anderson Brayton and Paul C.
Reed.
< When was it published (it's not in WorldCat)? Is there a list of the
< families included in the book posted somewhere?
<
< Thanks
<
< Jeff Duvall
I submitted the new Dorothy (Beresford) Brodnax line to Gary Boyd
Roberts for inclusion in his newly revised book, Royal Descents of 600
Immigrants. I just checked my copy of Roberts' book and found Dorothy
listed on page 860, with connecting ancestry on page 282. My research
on the Brodnax line was done for two of my clients, Dr. Dykes and Mr.
Johnson.
Mr. Johnson has since joined the well known hereditary society,
Descendants of the Illegitimate Sons and Daughters of the Kings of
Britain (a/k/a Royal Bastards) through his descent from Dorothy
(Beresford) Brodnax. If anyone is interested in joining this
organization, I suggest they contact Tony Hoskins offlist about
membership at (707) 545-0831, ext. 562.
The ancestral line of Dorothy (Beresford) Brodnax is one of the best
documented royal descents that I've ever encountered.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www. royalancestry. net
"JDUVALL" wrote:
< I know that this OT and will probably drive at least some members of
the
< list batty, but as someone with more than a few ancestors who settled
< (or appeared, at any rate) in Virginia in the 17th century, I'm quite
< curious to find out more about this new (2006) publication Tony
Hoskins
< mentioned in his post on Dorothy Beresford Brodnax (*English Origins
of
< Virginia Tidewater Families*) by John Anderson Brayton and Paul C.
Reed.
< When was it published (it's not in WorldCat)? Is there a list of the
< families included in the book posted somewhere?
<
< Thanks
<
< Jeff Duvall
-
Tony Hoskins
Re: OT (bigtime): "Ancestor Envy"
Hello Nat,
Afraid I know nothing of young Granger's family. But, I can see a new
hereditary group forming. But, what to call it?:
By-blows of Buggers?
Scions of Sodomites?
I'll stop now.
But, along these lines. I have a friend descending from a certain Mr.
Johnson of New York City who, if memory serves, in mid-to-late 17th
century New York City - as a fairly newly-married father of an infant
child - was caught in sodomitical congress (!) with another man and was
executed in a most curious way: sewn into a burlap bag and dropped into
the Hudson River.
Tony
Speaking of early colonial 'undesirables': further off-topic, but has
anyone systematically looked into the connections and ancestry of those
convicted of bestial sodomy in 17th-century New England? Aside from
Thomas Granger, the teenager executed in 1642 for buggering a mare, a
cow, two goats, five sheep, two calves and a turkey (!), and who has
descendants through a sister, there were two other teenage boys
executed
in the 1640s (one at Salem, one at New Haven), for unnatural acts with
cattle. Kinship with them does not yet have the cachet of descent from
witchcraft victims, but maybe someone can start a trend?
Nat Taylor
a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/
my children's 17th-century American immigrant ancestors:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltay ... rantsa.htm
Afraid I know nothing of young Granger's family. But, I can see a new
hereditary group forming. But, what to call it?:
By-blows of Buggers?
Scions of Sodomites?
I'll stop now.
But, along these lines. I have a friend descending from a certain Mr.
Johnson of New York City who, if memory serves, in mid-to-late 17th
century New York City - as a fairly newly-married father of an infant
child - was caught in sodomitical congress (!) with another man and was
executed in a most curious way: sewn into a burlap bag and dropped into
the Hudson River.
Tony
Nathaniel Taylor <nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net> 05/31/06 08:00AM
From: <roger.tansey@post.harvard.edu
Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 1:08 AM
Subject: Re: OT (bigtime): "Ancestor Envy"
| Indeed. It was fun to know I was descended from Gov. William
Bradford
| of Plymouth Colony. But it was more fun to discover a descent
from
| John Billington - who was sentenced to death by Bradford for
committing
| the first murder!
Speaking of early colonial 'undesirables': further off-topic, but has
anyone systematically looked into the connections and ancestry of those
convicted of bestial sodomy in 17th-century New England? Aside from
Thomas Granger, the teenager executed in 1642 for buggering a mare, a
cow, two goats, five sheep, two calves and a turkey (!), and who has
descendants through a sister, there were two other teenage boys
executed
in the 1640s (one at Salem, one at New Haven), for unnatural acts with
cattle. Kinship with them does not yet have the cachet of descent from
witchcraft victims, but maybe someone can start a trend?
Nat Taylor
a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/
my children's 17th-century American immigrant ancestors:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltay ... rantsa.htm
-
Tony Hoskins
Re: OT (bigtime): "Ancestor Envy"
"None of my Southern ancestors (half my ancestry) ever lived
any further west than the Charlotte, NC, area, and they managed to do
all right."
Interesting issue. All my slave-owning ancestors had divested
themselves of slaves by the Civil War - either (the New Yorkj ones
through legislation) or (the southern ones) by manumission.
Tony
Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404
707/545-0831, ext. 562
any further west than the Charlotte, NC, area, and they managed to do
all right."
Interesting issue. All my slave-owning ancestors had divested
themselves of slaves by the Civil War - either (the New Yorkj ones
through legislation) or (the southern ones) by manumission.
Tony
Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404
707/545-0831, ext. 562
-
Gjest
Re: Brenchley/will of Joan
In a message dated 5/31/2006 9:44:40 AM Pacific Standard Time,
charcsmith@verizon.net writes:
As to the statements in the "Windows of Nettlestead church" they say. Sir
Wm Brenchley resided in Brenchley and in the church there the arms of
Brenclhey impaling Batisford, formerly appeared, as also those of the late father in
law and mother in law (Batisford impaling Peplesham) and those of his
brother in law and sister in law (Etchingham impaling Batisford)
But it's an assumption isn't it?
How does the author know these arms were of this specific person or that one?
Probably the most we can say, stripped down, is that some person put up arms
in a window, that imply that some Brenchley married some Batisford at some
time before 1900.
Will
charcsmith@verizon.net writes:
As to the statements in the "Windows of Nettlestead church" they say. Sir
Wm Brenchley resided in Brenchley and in the church there the arms of
Brenclhey impaling Batisford, formerly appeared, as also those of the late father in
law and mother in law (Batisford impaling Peplesham) and those of his
brother in law and sister in law (Etchingham impaling Batisford)
But it's an assumption isn't it?
How does the author know these arms were of this specific person or that one?
Probably the most we can say, stripped down, is that some person put up arms
in a window, that imply that some Brenchley married some Batisford at some
time before 1900.
Will
-
Patricia Junkin
Re: Brenchley/will of Joan
Charlotte,
I am curious about the name Kayell and the connection of the families we
have previously discussed: Lewknor, Hoo, Gage and Bysshe. In a very early
document which I have previously posted (for translation help which was
generously given) John de la Bysse had apparently owed homage to Osbert de
Kaylly at Worth. According to Daniel Power, Osbert de Cailly died 1189-1198.
His daughter, Petronilla who was dead by 1202 married Geoffrey de Bosco.
Could this Thomas be a descendant of Osbert?
Thanks,
Pat
----------
I am curious about the name Kayell and the connection of the families we
have previously discussed: Lewknor, Hoo, Gage and Bysshe. In a very early
document which I have previously posted (for translation help which was
generously given) John de la Bysse had apparently owed homage to Osbert de
Kaylly at Worth. According to Daniel Power, Osbert de Cailly died 1189-1198.
His daughter, Petronilla who was dead by 1202 married Geoffrey de Bosco.
Could this Thomas be a descendant of Osbert?
Thanks,
Pat
----------
From: charlotte smith <charcsmith@verizon.net
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Brenchley/will of Joan
Date: Wed, 31, 2006, 12:44 PM
A copy of the will for Joan Brenchley(Brenschesle) is printed in the book
"The church of Sts Peter and Paul, Bexhill on page 80-81. The will found on
the Kent Archaeology page is not a complete transcription of the will and
therefore the name John de Codying are not listed, but it is on the
original. She also mentions that sir Thomas Kayell (maybe Cralle?) of the
property in Brenchesle. she also mentions Elizabeth Lewknore, Thomas Hoo ,
squire in the original will. I will send a copy of the original will to
anyone interested.
As to the statements in the "Windows of Nettlestead church" they say.
Sir Wm Brenchley resided in Brenchley and in the church there the arms of
Brenclhey impaling Batisford, formerly appeared, as also those of the late
father in law and mother in law (Batisford impaling Peplesham) and those
of his brother in law and sister in law (Etchingham impaling Batisford)
charlotte c smith
-
Gjest
Re: OT (bigtime): "Ancestor Envy"
Dear Hal, Tony, Mary and others,
Aaah, those delightfully
wicked ancestors, I have a fellow (at least one) who was fined for selling
intoxicating spirits to the local Indians, One famous minister ancestor Reverend
Stephen Batchelder at one point was guilty of bigamy, having one wife in
England and one in New England, a Great Grandfather and a Great Great Grandfather
were involved in bootlegging in turn of the century Maine and a second Great
Grandfather may have transported some of the illicit alchohol for those two. I
have a " witch' ancestress who was much given to cursing -people She didn`t
like... She was hanged at Salem. I have a number of mariners in my ancestry,
including one who was at once a patriot and accused of toryism. late in his life
He apparently had problems with diabetes, but when told He had to give up
liquor or lose his eyesight, He poured himself a glass , said " Good bye eyes"
and downed it. Oh and as for King John of England, He died after consuming a
large amount of new cider and eating too many green apples,
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
Aaah, those delightfully
wicked ancestors, I have a fellow (at least one) who was fined for selling
intoxicating spirits to the local Indians, One famous minister ancestor Reverend
Stephen Batchelder at one point was guilty of bigamy, having one wife in
England and one in New England, a Great Grandfather and a Great Great Grandfather
were involved in bootlegging in turn of the century Maine and a second Great
Grandfather may have transported some of the illicit alchohol for those two. I
have a " witch' ancestress who was much given to cursing -people She didn`t
like... She was hanged at Salem. I have a number of mariners in my ancestry,
including one who was at once a patriot and accused of toryism. late in his life
He apparently had problems with diabetes, but when told He had to give up
liquor or lose his eyesight, He poured himself a glass , said " Good bye eyes"
and downed it. Oh and as for King John of England, He died after consuming a
large amount of new cider and eating too many green apples,
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
-
Juanita Hoffman
RE: Re: OT (bigtime): "Ancestor Envy"
Hello Nat!
I just scanned through your email and was pleased to find the you are descended from John Billington. I too am descended through him by his daughter Mary Billington b. abt. 1640, married Samuel Sabin also b. abt. 1640.
Would love to exchange information.
Juanita
Wisconsin
ican immigrant ancestors:> http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/
leaves/immigrantsa.htm >
_________________________________________________________________
Join the next generation of Hotmail and you could win the adventure of a lifetime
http://www.imagine-msn.com/minisites/sw ... ister.aspx
I just scanned through your email and was pleased to find the you are descended from John Billington. I too am descended through him by his daughter Mary Billington b. abt. 1640, married Samuel Sabin also b. abt. 1640.
Would love to exchange information.
Juanita
Wisconsin
Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 09:30:32 -0700> From: hoskins@sonoma.lib.ca.us> Subject: Re: OT (bigtime): "Ancestor Envy"> To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com> > Hello Nat,> > Afraid I know nothing of young Granger's family. But, I can see a new> hereditary group forming. But, what to call it?:> > By-blows of Buggers?> Scions of Sodomites?> > I'll stop now.> > But, along these lines. I have a friend descending from a certain Mr.> Johnson of New York City who, if memory serves, in mid-to-late 17th> century New York City - as a fairly newly-married father of an infant> child - was caught in sodomitical congress (!) with another man and was> executed in a most curious way: sewn into a burlap bag and dropped into> the Hudson River.> > Tony> > >>> Nathaniel Taylor <nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net> 05/31/06 08:00AM> >>>> > From: <roger.tansey@post.harvard.edu>> > Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 1:08 AM> > Subject: Re: OT (bigtime): "Ancestor Envy"> > > > | Indeed. It was fun to know I was des!
cended from Gov. William> Bradford> > | of Plymouth Colony. But it was more fun to discover a descent> from> > | John Billington - who was sentenced to death by Bradford for> committing> > | the first murder!> > Speaking of early colonial 'undesirables': further off-topic, but has > anyone systematically looked into the connections and ancestry of those> > convicted of bestial sodomy in 17th-century New England? Aside from > Thomas Granger, the teenager executed in 1642 for buggering a mare, a > cow, two goats, five sheep, two calves and a turkey (!), and who has > descendants through a sister, there were two other teenage boys> executed > in the 1640s (one at Salem, one at New Haven), for unnatural acts with> > cattle. Kinship with them does not yet have the cachet of descent from> > witchcraft victims, but maybe someone can start a trend?> > Nat Taylor> > a genealogist's sketchbook:> http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/ > > my children's 17th-century Amer!
ican immigrant ancestors:> http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/
leaves/immigrantsa.htm >
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-
charlotte smith
re: Kent wills and Criol
according to my research and also the research of Dr Nigel Saul in his "Scenes from Provinical Life, Knightly families of Sussex 1280-1400" Elizabeth Croil is the wife of Wm Echyngham and maybe the second wife as accroding to Barrys Sussex History, he probably had the first wife as Marie Shoyswell.. The arms of Shoyswell /echyngham are on the tomb of this William and on church windows. This was before his grandson has "supposedly" married a Shoyswell which no proof can be found, except that Stuart Hall states so in his book Echyngham of Echyngham, without a source.
According to Nigel Saul, Wm Echyngham fought in two campaignes in 1359-60 in the company of Sir John de Croill(Pro C 76/37 m.t)
Robert Echyngham was the brother of William and they were both sons of James Echyngham. Robert married Joan Atta Gate and they settled at Great Dixter.
charlotte c smith
According to Nigel Saul, Wm Echyngham fought in two campaignes in 1359-60 in the company of Sir John de Croill(Pro C 76/37 m.t)
Robert Echyngham was the brother of William and they were both sons of James Echyngham. Robert married Joan Atta Gate and they settled at Great Dixter.
charlotte c smith
-
Nathaniel Taylor
Re: OT (bigtime): "Ancestor Envy"
In article <BAY119-W2973BBCA7ACF30BD3E47FB1930@phx.gbl>,
familyhistory93@hotmail.com ("Juanita Hoffman") wrote:
No, that was Roger Tansey.
Nat Taylor
familyhistory93@hotmail.com ("Juanita Hoffman") wrote:
Hello Nat!
I just scanned through your email and was pleased to find the you are
descended from John Billington.
No, that was Roger Tansey.
Nat Taylor
-
Gjest
Re: Kent Wills and the CRIOLS
In a message dated 5/31/06 4:07:23 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
caramut@bigpond.com writes:
<< 1. John Criol d. 1376 m1 ?, m2 Letice d. 1408 (she m1? Brikelesworth)
2. Nicholas Criol d. 1379 (son of 1st wife?) m. Elizabeth
Nicholas leaves 20 marks to Elizabeth Echyngham and makes William
Ecchyngham Knight and Robert of Ecchyngham two of his executors.
William Ecchyngham Knight is presumably Sir William Echyngham who died
18 Jan 1388. Elizabeth Echynham mentioned in the will is, I assume, his
wife Elizabeth >>
Here is a direct link to the will of Nicholas "Cryel"
dated 25 sep 1379, proved 8 Feb 1379[/1380]
I have two William Ecchyngham's in my database, either one could have been
the one above, but the one in the will is called Sir and Knight. Was the elder
William, apart from this reference known to have been a Knight? The younger
one was per MCA.
Will
caramut@bigpond.com writes:
<< 1. John Criol d. 1376 m1 ?, m2 Letice d. 1408 (she m1? Brikelesworth)
2. Nicholas Criol d. 1379 (son of 1st wife?) m. Elizabeth
Nicholas leaves 20 marks to Elizabeth Echyngham and makes William
Ecchyngham Knight and Robert of Ecchyngham two of his executors.
William Ecchyngham Knight is presumably Sir William Echyngham who died
18 Jan 1388. Elizabeth Echynham mentioned in the will is, I assume, his
wife Elizabeth >>
Here is a direct link to the will of Nicholas "Cryel"
dated 25 sep 1379, proved 8 Feb 1379[/1380]
I have two William Ecchyngham's in my database, either one could have been
the one above, but the one in the will is called Sir and Knight. Was the elder
William, apart from this reference known to have been a Knight? The younger
one was per MCA.
Will
-
Louise Staley
Re: Kent Wills and the CRIOLS
Will Johnson wrote:
Louise Staley wrote:
1. John Criol d. 1376 m1 ?, m2 Letice d. 1408 (she m1? Brikelesworth)
2. Nicholas Criol d. 1379 (son of 1st wife?) m. Elizabeth
Nicholas leaves 20 marks to Elizabeth Echyngham and makes William
Ecchyngham Knight and Robert of Ecchyngham two of his executors.
William Ecchyngham Knight is presumably Sir William Echyngham who died
18 Jan 1388. Elizabeth Echynham mentioned in the will is, I assume, his
wife Elizabeth
Here is a direct link to the will of Nicholas "Cryel"
dated 25 sep 1379, proved 8 Feb 1379[/1380]
I have two William Ecchyngham's in my database, either one could have been
the one above, but the one in the will is called Sir and Knight. Was the elder
William, apart from this reference known to have been a Knight? The younger
one was per MCA.
Will
Good question, to which I don't know the answer. I thought he was a
knight but I don't have a specific reference that says he was. However,
given the date is 1379 it seems to early for William the younger to have
been knighted.
My broader point is here is another primary source, to add to the ones
we already have in building a picture of the Echynghams. On that note
the wills of Sir William Rykhill (Book 23, page 342) and his wife Rosa
Medlan (Book 21, page 94) are also in the Kent Wills collection however
they do not appear to add any more information to the Echyngham line.
Louise
-
Leo van de Pas
Dorothy Beresford Brodnax was Re: OT: 2006 Brayton/Reed boo
My website shows that I touched the details for Dorothy Beresford Brodnax on
12 January 2006 and that the source for this information is the book by John
Anderson Brayton and Paul C. Reed mentioned below.
The information, giving royal ancestors to Dorothy, was supplied to me by
Paul Reed and he requested that the source was to be shown (as I would have
anyway). He advised me that the book would be published later in 2006 and so
we have to wait for "English Origins of Virginia Tidewater Families".
However, what is not clear is that apparently this is a series of books, not
just one volume.
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
----- Original Message -----
From: "JDUVALL" <jduvall@iupui.edu>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 12:25 AM
Subject: RE: OT: 2006 Brayton/Reed book
12 January 2006 and that the source for this information is the book by John
Anderson Brayton and Paul C. Reed mentioned below.
The information, giving royal ancestors to Dorothy, was supplied to me by
Paul Reed and he requested that the source was to be shown (as I would have
anyway). He advised me that the book would be published later in 2006 and so
we have to wait for "English Origins of Virginia Tidewater Families".
However, what is not clear is that apparently this is a series of books, not
just one volume.
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
----- Original Message -----
From: "JDUVALL" <jduvall@iupui.edu>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 12:25 AM
Subject: RE: OT: 2006 Brayton/Reed book
I know that this OT and will probably drive at least some members of the
list batty, but as someone with more than a few ancestors who settled
(or appeared, at any rate) in Virginia in the 17th century, I'm quite
curious to find out more about this new (2006) publication Tony Hoskins
mentioned in his post on Dorothy Beresford Brodnax (*English Origins of
Virginia Tidewater Families*) by John Anderson Brayton and Paul C. Reed.
When was it published (it's not in WorldCat)? Is there a list of the
families included in the book posted somewhere?
Thanks
Jeff Duvall
-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Hoskins [mailto:hoskins@sonoma.lib.ca.us]
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 5:18 PM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: New 17th century American "Royal Gateway": Dorothy
(Beresford)Brodnax
Dorothy (Beresford) Brodnax (d. aft 23 July 1657) of Godmersham, Kent
and York County, Virginia.
Unsure whether this has been discussed already. If not, some of you may
be aware of this already by virtue of _English Origins of Virginia
Tidewater Families_, 2006, by John Anderson and Paul C. Reed. But,
perhaps this news might be more widely disseminated. As
Secretary-Treasurer of the "Royal Bastards" ["Descendants of the
Illegitimate Sons and Daughters of the Kings of Britain"], we recently
accepted a lineage based on this new work.
Leo's site shows Dorothy (Beresford) Brodnax' ancestry:
http://www.genealogics.org/ahnentafel.p ... ree=LEO&pa
rentset=0&generations=8
Tony
Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404
707/545-0831, ext. 562
-
Gjest
Re: Eleanor Fitzalan and Thomas Browne
In a message dated 5/30/06 5:39:53 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
ADRIANCHANNING@aol.com writes:
<< [004 RICHARD (c1306?-24 Jan 1375/6 Arundel bur Lewes [149 Will requests
bur
in Chapter Ho there next to his wife] [and is probably the altar tomb with
his wife, now in Chichester Cathedral] Will 5 Dec 1375 in 149 pp 94-5);
FITZ
ALAN; s&h; 10/3Er; aka Copped Hat; In 1330/1 restored inc to Arundel
Castle; In
1334 cr Justiciar of N Wales for life] [048 In 1335 cr gov of Chirke
Castle,
co Denbigh; >>
I have a note that Richard "came of age in 1334" but nothing further on that.
Can someone suggest what my source was ?
It seems a little odd that he
was restored to Arundel Castle 3 to 4 years before he was of age.
Thanks
Willl
ADRIANCHANNING@aol.com writes:
<< [004 RICHARD (c1306?-24 Jan 1375/6 Arundel bur Lewes [149 Will requests
bur
in Chapter Ho there next to his wife] [and is probably the altar tomb with
his wife, now in Chichester Cathedral] Will 5 Dec 1375 in 149 pp 94-5);
FITZ
ALAN; s&h; 10/3Er; aka Copped Hat; In 1330/1 restored inc to Arundel
Castle; In
1334 cr Justiciar of N Wales for life] [048 In 1335 cr gov of Chirke
Castle,
co Denbigh; >>
I have a note that Richard "came of age in 1334" but nothing further on that.
Can someone suggest what my source was ?
was restored to Arundel Castle 3 to 4 years before he was of age.
Thanks
Willl
-
Gjest
Re: Eleanor Fitzalan and Thomas Browne
In a message dated 5/30/06 5:39:53 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
ADRIANCHANNING@aol.com writes:
<<
ISSUE OF RICHARD by m1 Isabel le Despenser
1. [004 EDMUND (c1327->1377) knt (1352): made ill’ by parents annulment;
m<Jul 1349 Sibyl d of WILLIAM MONTAGU 1Er of SALISBURY by Katherine d of
WILLIAM
de GRANDISON 1Bn >>
What of Mary the wife of John, 4th Lord Strange of Blakemere (d 1361),
parents of Ankeret who m Richard, Lord Talbot. Is not this Mary also the dau of
Richard FitzAlan and Isabel Despencer ?
Thanks
Will
ADRIANCHANNING@aol.com writes:
<<
ISSUE OF RICHARD by m1 Isabel le Despenser
1. [004 EDMUND (c1327->1377) knt (1352): made ill’ by parents annulment;
m<Jul 1349 Sibyl d of WILLIAM MONTAGU 1Er of SALISBURY by Katherine d of
WILLIAM
de GRANDISON 1Bn >>
What of Mary the wife of John, 4th Lord Strange of Blakemere (d 1361),
parents of Ankeret who m Richard, Lord Talbot. Is not this Mary also the dau of
Richard FitzAlan and Isabel Despencer ?
Thanks
Will
-
Louise Staley
Re: Kent Wills and the CRIOLS
WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
father Simon) so born about 1333. To me this would make William born
after 1350, when his father was 17, but as late as 1360. So I suppose if
William was born in 1350, and so aged 29 in 1379 he could have been
knighted by then. Part of the problem here is we don't actually know who
William the father married. It looks like Elizabeth Criol was his wife
in 1379 but we don't know if she was the first wife, the mother of the
children, or when they were married.
Louise
In a message dated 5/31/06 4:52:58 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
caramut@bigpond.com writes:
Good question, to which I don't know the answer. I thought he was a
knight but I don't have a specific reference that says he was. However,
given the date is 1379 it seems to early for William the younger to have
been knighted.
Actually I have no useful primary documentation to pinpoint Williams' birth
much, but enough leeway, that he could have been in his late 30s by this date.
Have you got something that makes him younger?
His father was described as 16 and more in 1349 (on the death of his
father Simon) so born about 1333. To me this would make William born
after 1350, when his father was 17, but as late as 1360. So I suppose if
William was born in 1350, and so aged 29 in 1379 he could have been
knighted by then. Part of the problem here is we don't actually know who
William the father married. It looks like Elizabeth Criol was his wife
in 1379 but we don't know if she was the first wife, the mother of the
children, or when they were married.
Louise
-
Gjest
Re: Kent Wills and the CRIOLS
In a message dated 5/31/06 4:52:58 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
caramut@bigpond.com writes:
<< Good question, to which I don't know the answer. I thought he was a
knight but I don't have a specific reference that says he was. However,
given the date is 1379 it seems to early for William the younger to have
been knighted. >>
Actually I have no useful primary documentation to pinpoint Williams' birth
much, but enough leeway, that he could have been in his late 30s by this date.
Have you got something that makes him younger?
caramut@bigpond.com writes:
<< Good question, to which I don't know the answer. I thought he was a
knight but I don't have a specific reference that says he was. However,
given the date is 1379 it seems to early for William the younger to have
been knighted. >>
Actually I have no useful primary documentation to pinpoint Williams' birth
much, but enough leeway, that he could have been in his late 30s by this date.
Have you got something that makes him younger?
-
Patricia Junkin
Re: Eudes la Zouche, senior and junior: a conjecture
All,
I do appreciate being included in this discussion. I do have some
observations that place my suppositions somewhat at variance. Pat
John wrote:
there is a piece of evidence (actually 2 parts) that i noted in a post of
doug's from january 2006 (see below).
1. "12 march 1280/1. - letters patent of milicent de monte alto, widow,"
which named among her household "thomas la zusche, then steward of her
household."
was this thomas really the son of milicent?
the conundrum that surrounds milicent encompasses the relationship with the
de boscos, the timeline of her marriage to eudo and the grant of
lubbesthorpe-- nothing easily explained.
without question, william la zouche (who married maude lovell, daughter of
isabel de bois/bosco) is named her heir and is assumed to be her eldest. i
find bequests to william and her daughters, elinor, eve and elizabeth.
i have a few reservations concerning the possibility this thomas was her
son. the following presents a conundrum: 1262, 25 december ... the king is
sending alan la zuche [s/o roger and margaret], justice of the
forest on this side trent, to the said march commands the justice [orreby]
to deliver the castles of edward, the king's son, to wit, chester, beston
and shotwik, to eudo la zuche[i], brother of the said alan, without delay to
keep in the name of the said alan until his arrival. [calendar of patent
rolls, 1258-66, p.238: 47 henry iii - part 1, m.19] [chester, beeston and
shotwick are in the ipm of the eudo, son of alan and elena de quincy, who
married
milicent de cantilupo. the brother cannot be the son. one source states that
in 1253 eudo la zouche granted benefit of marriage of agatha, d/o william de
feraris. certainly this eudo would have been born circa 1233 or before. at
about the same time, 1262, grant to William la Zuche of the marriage of the
heirs of Isabel late wife of Reynold de Mohun for 200 marks or for so much
as any other shall offer within a year of this grant [46-7 H 3]; on
condition there be allowed in the said fine his yearly fee of 40 marks
until the said fine be paid.. Isabel was the daughter of William de Ferraris
]
1. milicent married john de montaldt before 1255.
2. milicent 's father, william de cantilupe died 1255 assigning "all the
rents of 19 hides were
assigned to sir william de cantilupo to john de montealto, with his
daughter..."
3. between 1255 and 1267 john de montaldt died.
4. 1263 eudo la zouche summoned to windsor and william la zouche appointed
justice of chester.
5. 1269 sirs ivo (eudo) and alan la zouche witness the confirmation of
roger la zouche, father, to the sisters at maiden bradley.
6. 1265 after the battle of evesham, eudo la zuches' servant is awarded
"the michaelmas
rent of 6 1/2d"
7. 1268, before most records indicate a marriage with eudo: william la
zouche, lobesthorp. "service of third of knight's fee of the gift of
millicent de montealto in 52 hen iii."
is, as john suggests below, milicent awarding lubbesthorpe to william of
essex and for what reason?
i find notes for a william la zouce in surrey and sussex by about 1200. in
1209 a william la tuche witnessed a deed of peter de toleworth to johannes
de la bisse. although there appears to be a family of tuche, the name is
often corrupted from that of zuche. a 1250 grant is witnessed by sir alan la
tuch the justiciar of chester, sir william la tuche, most certainly these
men were zouche. in 1221, william la zuche vs. william de wylburnham and his
wife emma in sheres. pedes finium surrey. after 1174: west sussex 12th c by
(a) alan la scuche and alice de belmeis his wife to (b) william de alta
ripa for homage and on remission to (a) of the right which (b) had in (a)'s
woods (nemoribus) of forsistnd' (sic) [comment; john barttelot, married
katherina de alta ripa. arms
‹dexter : barttelot, stopham, lewknor, etchingham, and tregoz. sinister :
dawtrey (alta ripa).1267 Confirmation of the restitution by William la Zuche
to William de Alta Ripa of his lands, which the king gave to the former on
occasion of the trespasses of the later in the time of the disturbance of
the realm, the former having acknowledged before the king that the latter
had redeemed his lands from him according to the form of the award of
Kenilworth.
i do not think this william is the william of essex who married maud
howbridge, perhaps the william of blaketoriton. manor of stopham was held
in 1242 by ralph stopham of alan la zouche who held of percy, who held of
the earl of arundel who held of the king in chief . 1314 alan la zouche
ipm devon. inq. 5 may 7 e ii [1314] blaketoriton. the manor held by emery
la zuche by knights service. [1289 emery (almaricus) son and heir of
william de la zusche alias la zouche] alan la zouche in sussex:treve,
stopham, lynch, chitlington.
and....there is a Richard la Zouche in the mid thireenth century.1267 To
William la Susche and Richard de Suche--Because the king has appointed them
to keep the peace in the counties of Essex and Hertford, and to take and
aggrieve the king's enemies and rebels impeding the peace; the king commands
them, of they find any such, to cause judgment to be done upon them, if they
find any such, to cause judgment to be done upon them, as is fitting
according to the custom of the realm of England, giving them the same power
in this behalf as though he were present in person.
8. 1292, a suit took place between william de bois [bosco}, plaintiff, and
peter helewell and john la zuche, defendants, concerning the manors of thorp
ernauld, brentingby, bushby, belgrave and stretton and two knights fees in
great peatling, aylmerthorpe, kyleby, and croston co. leicester, and divers
lands in weston, wibtoft &c. co. warwick.1295 edw. i gives leave for william
de bois (who held of him in capite) to enfeoff milicent de montalt (who also
held of him in capite) in a moiety of the manor of thorpe-ernauld, to the
use of her and her heirs, and their assigns. was this john also thought to
be milicent's son. certainly he was claiming an interest in her properties.
who, also, was sir maula suche who with sir ernulf de bosco, sir wm. de
medburn, sir wm. de beurnais [belmeis/beaumis?] and sir wm. de charneley,
kts. witnessed a settlement at osberton, notts.?
9. 1313 listed among the adherents of thomas, earl of lancaster implicated
in the death of piers gaveston: fulk de penebrugge, grandson of alice la
zouche]; william la zouche of haryngsworth, thomas la zusche, john du boys
[bosco] nicholas de vespont, robert de conestable of flainesborgh, simon le
conestable and thomas le conestable of holderness, william de cantilou. john
comyn, william la zusche, william de sondford, aumary la zusche, nicholas de
audele, henry de percy, euon le filz williame le filz eoun la zouche
.. doug noted re: this individual, "this thomas la zouche is surely the same
person as thomas son of eudes la zouche who in 1307 was owed a debt in
northamptonshire," together with other details.
10. where is the debt owed? in 1330 john la zouche is a witness in a kirby,
northamptonshire
document . william la zouche of harryngsworth is sued by ralph de crombwelle
in 1344 at basford, nothamptonshire. in 1307 which Eudes are you assuming
is his father? and, is this from an eyre or a secondary source?
"i would agree that this is likely the same individual, and that he could
not have been the son of millicent de cantilupo (given she married eudes la
zouche in 1273 or shortly before). i would in fact suggest he was the son
of 'the elder eudes la zouche', and was a younger brother of eudes la zouche
of harringworth, husband of millicent.
11. when did milicent have these children in a six year marriage to Eudes
and when she was 30 plus: william, 1277; Elizabeth, Eleanor, Eve? The Inq.
of Millicent de Cantilupe del la Zouche de Monte Alto was taken 27 Edw. I
(1299) naming her son William, age 22 [b. 1277-Millicent almost 40], her
heir. Eudes, her busband, died ca. 1279.
We have a reference her to Thomas in 1307. Where does he fit among her
children?
i have created an incomplete chart of the zouche family, displaying this
alleged relationship. if this thomas la zouche is a single individual and
not a conflation, this appears to be the logical answer to the 'eudes la
zouche' conundrum.
cheers,
john *
[note: this chart reflects known and conjectured relationships]
[NOTE: this chart reflects known and conjectured relationships]
Sir Roger la Zouche = Margaret Bisset
I
__________________________I_________________________________
I I I I I
Sir Alan Sir William = Alice = Eudes Lora
d. 1270 of Norton Sir William I = Gilbert
m. bef 1242 & Hobrugge de Harcourt I de Sanford
Ellen de = 1) Maud de 'ca. 1250' I m. bef 1249
Quincy I Hobrugge I
I = 2) Joan I
___________I I________ ________I_______
I I I I I
Joyce William Sir Roger Eudes Thomas
= Robert (dsp) of Lubbesthorpe d. bef 25 'steward' to
de Mortimer d. bef 30 Sept Jun 1279 Millicent,
d. 1287 1302 = bef Dec 12 March 1280/1
____I___________ = Juliana 1273
I I I Millicent de Cantilupo
I I ___I___________________
I I I I I I
Hugh Sir William Sir Roger Eudo Alan Ralph
de la Zouche of
Mortimer Mortimer Lubbesthorpe
of Ashby
* john p. ravilious"
======================================
from: "douglas richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com> subject: c.p.
addition/correction: zouche (revised post) date: 8 jan 2006 23:18:20 -0800
references: <29f.362b18b.30f31874@aol.com> in-reply-to:
<29f.362b18b.30f31874@aol.com>
..............
Douglas wrote:
in regards to your comments about roger la zouche, of lubbesthorpe,
leicestershire, you're quite correct that there is most likely an error in
the transcript of the charter dated 1289-1296 in which milicent de mohaut,
widow of sir eudes la zouche, granted the manor of lubbesthorpe,
leicestershire to "richard" la zouche, son of sir william la zouche. as you
have noted, this manor was actually granted to roger la zouche, son of sir
william la zouche.
that roger, not richard, la zouche was the grantee of lubbesthorpe is
directly stated in another zouche family charter that i've found published
elsewhere:
"3 may 1406. - grant by monsieur william la zouche, "seigneur" de
harringworth, to thomas assheby, of the custody, during the minority of
robert, son and heir of monsieur marmaduke constable, of a third part of the
manor, it [i.e. the manor] having been held of the grantor in chief by
marmduke, together with robert seint andrew and thomas assheby, severally
and in purparty, for estates in tail, by the service of one knight - they
being the heirs of roger son of william la zouche, to whom the manor had
been granted for an estate tail by milicent de montalt; the ultimate
remainder in default of their issue belonging to the grantor. - dated at
london, 2 may, 7 henry iv. in french. very fine remains of his seal of arms
- bezantée (ten shewing), a canton ermine; the shield (which is perfect and
fine) couchée from helm surmounted by crest - out of a coronet a mule's
head; to the dexter side of the helm (the other side is missing), an eagle
rising. [legend:] ............ de haryngworth." [reference: report on the
mss of reginald rawdon hastings, esq. 1 (hist. mss comm. 78) (1928): 60].
there is also in print a transcript of another charter in which milicent de
mohaut, widow of sir eudes la zouche, specifically addresses roger la
zouche, who she calls "her beloved and faithful":
does this necessarily indicate a son? isn't she also calling sir john de
harigworte, chaplain, her beloved and faithful"?
"12 march 1280/1. - letters patent of milicent de monte alto, widow,
acknowledging that "her beloved and faithful" roger la zusche had returned
his account, before her and "her beloved and faithful" sir john de
harigworte, chaplain, and william de kaune, clerk, and before thomas la
zusche, then steward of her household, comprising all his receipts and
expenses from the first day of his employment to the feast of the
purification, 9 edward i; and releasing him from the said account. witnesses
- "the said auditors, sir richard de geytynton, chaplain, william de
harigworthe, clerk, john de houdeyng, then bailiff, and others. - st.
gregory the pope, 9 edward i. her very fine and nearly perfect pointed oval
seal, in green wax - her full-length figure in long empire dress and cloak,
the dress charged with rows of roundles nearly to the bottom, the lining of
the cloak charged with vair spots; square flat head dress; in either hand
she holds a shield, that to the dexter is charged with a lion rampant, that
to the sinister defaced, but suggestive of three leopards' faces inverted
jessant de lys. legend: s' milisente .........to." [reference: report on the
mss of reginald rawdon hastings, esq. 1 (hist. mss comm. 78) (1928): 143].
birch gives a similar seal for milicent de mohaut in his work, catalogue of
seals in the british museum, 2 (1892): 393:
pointed oval. in tightly-fitting dress, fur cloak, in each hand a shield of
arms. standing on a carved corbel. arms: right hand a lion rampant, montalt;
left hand three leopards' heads jessants-de-lis, cantelowe. in the field on
each side a wavy sprig of foliage).
we see above that a thomas la zouche was acting as milicent de mohaut's
steward in 1281. this thomas la zouche is surely the same person as thomas
son of eudes la zouche who in 1307 was owed a debt in northamptonshire. in
1313 thomas was pardoned for his involvement in the death of peter de
gavaston, earl of cornwall. in 1324 he was pardoned for acquiring without
license of king edward i (prior to 1307) five messuages and lands in
basford, nottinghamshire for life from william la zouche [presumably his
brother] [references: j. throsby thoroton's hist. of nottinghamshire, 2:
227; calendar of patent rolls, 1321-1324 (1904): 393; c. moor knights of
edward i 5: 225].
if the same thomas la zouche is involved in all of these records, it seems
obvious that thomas la zouche was very likely the step-son of milicent de
mohaut, he being the son of sir eudes la zouche (died 1279), by an unknown
1st wife or mistress. it seems possible that thomas la zouche was a
legitimate son of eudes la zouche. as best i know, all of eudes la zouche's
known land holdings were derived from his wife, milicent's extensive
cantelowe inheritance; if eudes had a son by a priior marriage, it would be
obscured by the passage of all of eudes' wife's lands to their son, william
la zouche. there appears to have been no inquisition post mortem taken
following sir eudes la zouche's death.
with respect to the identity of sir william la zouche, father of roger la
zouche of lubbesthorpe, he is undoubtedly the sir william la zouche, knt.
(died 1272), of king's nympton, devon, farleigh wallop, hampshire, and
norton, northamptonshire, which individual was the brother of milicent de
mohaut's husband, sir eudes la zouche. complete peerage 12 pt. 2 (1959): 957
(sub zouche) states that sir william la zouche was survived by a sole
daughter and heiress, joyce la zouche, wife of robert de mortimer, but this
is not correct. my research indicates that sir william la zouche was
actually survived by a son and heir, william la zouche the younger. upon the
death of the younger william, the family estates fell to his full sister,
joyce la zouche, widow of ncholas de whelton, and then wife of robert de
mortimer. it appears that roger la zouche, later of lubbesthorpe, was
excluded from the zouche family inheritance, he being a brother of the half
blood to william la zouche the younger.
i cannot yet make this leap, doug, and would very much to be guided to the
resource on which you have based your connection of William of Essex with
Farleigh Wallop since I find other possibilities. I just believe we have
more Williams of the same time to conclude the discussion.l
furthermore, given that milicent de mohaut addresses roger la zouche of
lubbesthorpe as "her beloved and faithful," and not otherwise, i believe
this is fatal to the theory that roger la zouche was married to an hitherto
unknown daughter of milicent de mohaut's 1st marriage to john de mohaut. had
roger la zouche been married to milicent de mohaut's daughter, or contracted
to marry her daughter, this would likely have been mentioned in either the
charter that i have copied above, or the one you cited in your post.
I do appreciate being included in this discussion. I do have some
observations that place my suppositions somewhat at variance. Pat
John wrote:
there is a piece of evidence (actually 2 parts) that i noted in a post of
doug's from january 2006 (see below).
1. "12 march 1280/1. - letters patent of milicent de monte alto, widow,"
which named among her household "thomas la zusche, then steward of her
household."
was this thomas really the son of milicent?
the conundrum that surrounds milicent encompasses the relationship with the
de boscos, the timeline of her marriage to eudo and the grant of
lubbesthorpe-- nothing easily explained.
without question, william la zouche (who married maude lovell, daughter of
isabel de bois/bosco) is named her heir and is assumed to be her eldest. i
find bequests to william and her daughters, elinor, eve and elizabeth.
i have a few reservations concerning the possibility this thomas was her
son. the following presents a conundrum: 1262, 25 december ... the king is
sending alan la zuche [s/o roger and margaret], justice of the
forest on this side trent, to the said march commands the justice [orreby]
to deliver the castles of edward, the king's son, to wit, chester, beston
and shotwik, to eudo la zuche[i], brother of the said alan, without delay to
keep in the name of the said alan until his arrival. [calendar of patent
rolls, 1258-66, p.238: 47 henry iii - part 1, m.19] [chester, beeston and
shotwick are in the ipm of the eudo, son of alan and elena de quincy, who
married
milicent de cantilupo. the brother cannot be the son. one source states that
in 1253 eudo la zouche granted benefit of marriage of agatha, d/o william de
feraris. certainly this eudo would have been born circa 1233 or before. at
about the same time, 1262, grant to William la Zuche of the marriage of the
heirs of Isabel late wife of Reynold de Mohun for 200 marks or for so much
as any other shall offer within a year of this grant [46-7 H 3]; on
condition there be allowed in the said fine his yearly fee of 40 marks
until the said fine be paid.. Isabel was the daughter of William de Ferraris
]
1. milicent married john de montaldt before 1255.
2. milicent 's father, william de cantilupe died 1255 assigning "all the
rents of 19 hides were
assigned to sir william de cantilupo to john de montealto, with his
daughter..."
3. between 1255 and 1267 john de montaldt died.
4. 1263 eudo la zouche summoned to windsor and william la zouche appointed
justice of chester.
5. 1269 sirs ivo (eudo) and alan la zouche witness the confirmation of
roger la zouche, father, to the sisters at maiden bradley.
6. 1265 after the battle of evesham, eudo la zuches' servant is awarded
"the michaelmas
rent of 6 1/2d"
7. 1268, before most records indicate a marriage with eudo: william la
zouche, lobesthorp. "service of third of knight's fee of the gift of
millicent de montealto in 52 hen iii."
is, as john suggests below, milicent awarding lubbesthorpe to william of
essex and for what reason?
i find notes for a william la zouce in surrey and sussex by about 1200. in
1209 a william la tuche witnessed a deed of peter de toleworth to johannes
de la bisse. although there appears to be a family of tuche, the name is
often corrupted from that of zuche. a 1250 grant is witnessed by sir alan la
tuch the justiciar of chester, sir william la tuche, most certainly these
men were zouche. in 1221, william la zuche vs. william de wylburnham and his
wife emma in sheres. pedes finium surrey. after 1174: west sussex 12th c by
(a) alan la scuche and alice de belmeis his wife to (b) william de alta
ripa for homage and on remission to (a) of the right which (b) had in (a)'s
woods (nemoribus) of forsistnd' (sic) [comment; john barttelot, married
katherina de alta ripa. arms
‹dexter : barttelot, stopham, lewknor, etchingham, and tregoz. sinister :
dawtrey (alta ripa).1267 Confirmation of the restitution by William la Zuche
to William de Alta Ripa of his lands, which the king gave to the former on
occasion of the trespasses of the later in the time of the disturbance of
the realm, the former having acknowledged before the king that the latter
had redeemed his lands from him according to the form of the award of
Kenilworth.
i do not think this william is the william of essex who married maud
howbridge, perhaps the william of blaketoriton. manor of stopham was held
in 1242 by ralph stopham of alan la zouche who held of percy, who held of
the earl of arundel who held of the king in chief . 1314 alan la zouche
ipm devon. inq. 5 may 7 e ii [1314] blaketoriton. the manor held by emery
la zuche by knights service. [1289 emery (almaricus) son and heir of
william de la zusche alias la zouche] alan la zouche in sussex:treve,
stopham, lynch, chitlington.
and....there is a Richard la Zouche in the mid thireenth century.1267 To
William la Susche and Richard de Suche--Because the king has appointed them
to keep the peace in the counties of Essex and Hertford, and to take and
aggrieve the king's enemies and rebels impeding the peace; the king commands
them, of they find any such, to cause judgment to be done upon them, if they
find any such, to cause judgment to be done upon them, as is fitting
according to the custom of the realm of England, giving them the same power
in this behalf as though he were present in person.
8. 1292, a suit took place between william de bois [bosco}, plaintiff, and
peter helewell and john la zuche, defendants, concerning the manors of thorp
ernauld, brentingby, bushby, belgrave and stretton and two knights fees in
great peatling, aylmerthorpe, kyleby, and croston co. leicester, and divers
lands in weston, wibtoft &c. co. warwick.1295 edw. i gives leave for william
de bois (who held of him in capite) to enfeoff milicent de montalt (who also
held of him in capite) in a moiety of the manor of thorpe-ernauld, to the
use of her and her heirs, and their assigns. was this john also thought to
be milicent's son. certainly he was claiming an interest in her properties.
who, also, was sir maula suche who with sir ernulf de bosco, sir wm. de
medburn, sir wm. de beurnais [belmeis/beaumis?] and sir wm. de charneley,
kts. witnessed a settlement at osberton, notts.?
9. 1313 listed among the adherents of thomas, earl of lancaster implicated
in the death of piers gaveston: fulk de penebrugge, grandson of alice la
zouche]; william la zouche of haryngsworth, thomas la zusche, john du boys
[bosco] nicholas de vespont, robert de conestable of flainesborgh, simon le
conestable and thomas le conestable of holderness, william de cantilou. john
comyn, william la zusche, william de sondford, aumary la zusche, nicholas de
audele, henry de percy, euon le filz williame le filz eoun la zouche
.. doug noted re: this individual, "this thomas la zouche is surely the same
person as thomas son of eudes la zouche who in 1307 was owed a debt in
northamptonshire," together with other details.
10. where is the debt owed? in 1330 john la zouche is a witness in a kirby,
northamptonshire
document . william la zouche of harryngsworth is sued by ralph de crombwelle
in 1344 at basford, nothamptonshire. in 1307 which Eudes are you assuming
is his father? and, is this from an eyre or a secondary source?
"i would agree that this is likely the same individual, and that he could
not have been the son of millicent de cantilupo (given she married eudes la
zouche in 1273 or shortly before). i would in fact suggest he was the son
of 'the elder eudes la zouche', and was a younger brother of eudes la zouche
of harringworth, husband of millicent.
11. when did milicent have these children in a six year marriage to Eudes
and when she was 30 plus: william, 1277; Elizabeth, Eleanor, Eve? The Inq.
of Millicent de Cantilupe del la Zouche de Monte Alto was taken 27 Edw. I
(1299) naming her son William, age 22 [b. 1277-Millicent almost 40], her
heir. Eudes, her busband, died ca. 1279.
We have a reference her to Thomas in 1307. Where does he fit among her
children?
i have created an incomplete chart of the zouche family, displaying this
alleged relationship. if this thomas la zouche is a single individual and
not a conflation, this appears to be the logical answer to the 'eudes la
zouche' conundrum.
cheers,
john *
[note: this chart reflects known and conjectured relationships]
[NOTE: this chart reflects known and conjectured relationships]
Sir Roger la Zouche = Margaret Bisset
I
__________________________I_________________________________
I I I I I
Sir Alan Sir William = Alice = Eudes Lora
d. 1270 of Norton Sir William I = Gilbert
m. bef 1242 & Hobrugge de Harcourt I de Sanford
Ellen de = 1) Maud de 'ca. 1250' I m. bef 1249
Quincy I Hobrugge I
I = 2) Joan I
___________I I________ ________I_______
I I I I I
Joyce William Sir Roger Eudes Thomas
= Robert (dsp) of Lubbesthorpe d. bef 25 'steward' to
de Mortimer d. bef 30 Sept Jun 1279 Millicent,
d. 1287 1302 = bef Dec 12 March 1280/1
____I___________ = Juliana 1273
I I I Millicent de Cantilupo
I I ___I___________________
I I I I I I
Hugh Sir William Sir Roger Eudo Alan Ralph
de la Zouche of
Mortimer Mortimer Lubbesthorpe
of Ashby
* john p. ravilious"
======================================
from: "douglas richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com> subject: c.p.
addition/correction: zouche (revised post) date: 8 jan 2006 23:18:20 -0800
references: <29f.362b18b.30f31874@aol.com> in-reply-to:
<29f.362b18b.30f31874@aol.com>
..............
Douglas wrote:
in regards to your comments about roger la zouche, of lubbesthorpe,
leicestershire, you're quite correct that there is most likely an error in
the transcript of the charter dated 1289-1296 in which milicent de mohaut,
widow of sir eudes la zouche, granted the manor of lubbesthorpe,
leicestershire to "richard" la zouche, son of sir william la zouche. as you
have noted, this manor was actually granted to roger la zouche, son of sir
william la zouche.
that roger, not richard, la zouche was the grantee of lubbesthorpe is
directly stated in another zouche family charter that i've found published
elsewhere:
"3 may 1406. - grant by monsieur william la zouche, "seigneur" de
harringworth, to thomas assheby, of the custody, during the minority of
robert, son and heir of monsieur marmaduke constable, of a third part of the
manor, it [i.e. the manor] having been held of the grantor in chief by
marmduke, together with robert seint andrew and thomas assheby, severally
and in purparty, for estates in tail, by the service of one knight - they
being the heirs of roger son of william la zouche, to whom the manor had
been granted for an estate tail by milicent de montalt; the ultimate
remainder in default of their issue belonging to the grantor. - dated at
london, 2 may, 7 henry iv. in french. very fine remains of his seal of arms
- bezantée (ten shewing), a canton ermine; the shield (which is perfect and
fine) couchée from helm surmounted by crest - out of a coronet a mule's
head; to the dexter side of the helm (the other side is missing), an eagle
rising. [legend:] ............ de haryngworth." [reference: report on the
mss of reginald rawdon hastings, esq. 1 (hist. mss comm. 78) (1928): 60].
there is also in print a transcript of another charter in which milicent de
mohaut, widow of sir eudes la zouche, specifically addresses roger la
zouche, who she calls "her beloved and faithful":
does this necessarily indicate a son? isn't she also calling sir john de
harigworte, chaplain, her beloved and faithful"?
"12 march 1280/1. - letters patent of milicent de monte alto, widow,
acknowledging that "her beloved and faithful" roger la zusche had returned
his account, before her and "her beloved and faithful" sir john de
harigworte, chaplain, and william de kaune, clerk, and before thomas la
zusche, then steward of her household, comprising all his receipts and
expenses from the first day of his employment to the feast of the
purification, 9 edward i; and releasing him from the said account. witnesses
- "the said auditors, sir richard de geytynton, chaplain, william de
harigworthe, clerk, john de houdeyng, then bailiff, and others. - st.
gregory the pope, 9 edward i. her very fine and nearly perfect pointed oval
seal, in green wax - her full-length figure in long empire dress and cloak,
the dress charged with rows of roundles nearly to the bottom, the lining of
the cloak charged with vair spots; square flat head dress; in either hand
she holds a shield, that to the dexter is charged with a lion rampant, that
to the sinister defaced, but suggestive of three leopards' faces inverted
jessant de lys. legend: s' milisente .........to." [reference: report on the
mss of reginald rawdon hastings, esq. 1 (hist. mss comm. 78) (1928): 143].
birch gives a similar seal for milicent de mohaut in his work, catalogue of
seals in the british museum, 2 (1892): 393:
pointed oval. in tightly-fitting dress, fur cloak, in each hand a shield of
arms. standing on a carved corbel. arms: right hand a lion rampant, montalt;
left hand three leopards' heads jessants-de-lis, cantelowe. in the field on
each side a wavy sprig of foliage).
we see above that a thomas la zouche was acting as milicent de mohaut's
steward in 1281. this thomas la zouche is surely the same person as thomas
son of eudes la zouche who in 1307 was owed a debt in northamptonshire. in
1313 thomas was pardoned for his involvement in the death of peter de
gavaston, earl of cornwall. in 1324 he was pardoned for acquiring without
license of king edward i (prior to 1307) five messuages and lands in
basford, nottinghamshire for life from william la zouche [presumably his
brother] [references: j. throsby thoroton's hist. of nottinghamshire, 2:
227; calendar of patent rolls, 1321-1324 (1904): 393; c. moor knights of
edward i 5: 225].
if the same thomas la zouche is involved in all of these records, it seems
obvious that thomas la zouche was very likely the step-son of milicent de
mohaut, he being the son of sir eudes la zouche (died 1279), by an unknown
1st wife or mistress. it seems possible that thomas la zouche was a
legitimate son of eudes la zouche. as best i know, all of eudes la zouche's
known land holdings were derived from his wife, milicent's extensive
cantelowe inheritance; if eudes had a son by a priior marriage, it would be
obscured by the passage of all of eudes' wife's lands to their son, william
la zouche. there appears to have been no inquisition post mortem taken
following sir eudes la zouche's death.
with respect to the identity of sir william la zouche, father of roger la
zouche of lubbesthorpe, he is undoubtedly the sir william la zouche, knt.
(died 1272), of king's nympton, devon, farleigh wallop, hampshire, and
norton, northamptonshire, which individual was the brother of milicent de
mohaut's husband, sir eudes la zouche. complete peerage 12 pt. 2 (1959): 957
(sub zouche) states that sir william la zouche was survived by a sole
daughter and heiress, joyce la zouche, wife of robert de mortimer, but this
is not correct. my research indicates that sir william la zouche was
actually survived by a son and heir, william la zouche the younger. upon the
death of the younger william, the family estates fell to his full sister,
joyce la zouche, widow of ncholas de whelton, and then wife of robert de
mortimer. it appears that roger la zouche, later of lubbesthorpe, was
excluded from the zouche family inheritance, he being a brother of the half
blood to william la zouche the younger.
i cannot yet make this leap, doug, and would very much to be guided to the
resource on which you have based your connection of William of Essex with
Farleigh Wallop since I find other possibilities. I just believe we have
more Williams of the same time to conclude the discussion.l
furthermore, given that milicent de mohaut addresses roger la zouche of
lubbesthorpe as "her beloved and faithful," and not otherwise, i believe
this is fatal to the theory that roger la zouche was married to an hitherto
unknown daughter of milicent de mohaut's 1st marriage to john de mohaut. had
roger la zouche been married to milicent de mohaut's daughter, or contracted
to marry her daughter, this would likely have been mentioned in either the
charter that i have copied above, or the one you cited in your post.
-
Gjest
Re: New Royal Gateway for Amiot Descendants
In a message dated 5/31/06 6:37:24 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
dulongd@habitant.org writes:
<< Perhaps French Canadians are
suffering from "royal gateway fatigue"? >>
For some reason, even though I've posted simply enormous masses of my
Quebecois descents in my online tree, I get very very few responses on those.
I have only participated in two, yes two email groups discussing any of those
lines, in the past ten years, even though they really make up the
overwhelming bulk of my own personal tree.
I get most of my responses, from my data, about southern families. Arkansas,
Alabama, Texas, Missouri, Tennessee.... go figure.
Will
dulongd@habitant.org writes:
<< Perhaps French Canadians are
suffering from "royal gateway fatigue"? >>
For some reason, even though I've posted simply enormous masses of my
Quebecois descents in my online tree, I get very very few responses on those.
I have only participated in two, yes two email groups discussing any of those
lines, in the past ten years, even though they really make up the
overwhelming bulk of my own personal tree.
I get most of my responses, from my data, about southern families. Arkansas,
Alabama, Texas, Missouri, Tennessee.... go figure.
Will
-
Gjest
Re: Kent Wills and the CRIOLS
In a message dated 5/31/06 6:07:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
caramut@bigpond.com writes:
<< His father was described as 16 and more in 1349 (on the death of his
father Simon) so born about 1333. >>
You have the IPM for Simon? I haven't seen that quote yet, can you post what
you have on that? The brass in the church of Echyngham that was posted a
while ago here, stated that William's father was James.
So if you have this proof that Simon had a William as well, that would
indicate great doubt on the issue that Marie Shoyswell was the first wife of William
who d 18 Jan 1387/8
Thanks
Will
caramut@bigpond.com writes:
<< His father was described as 16 and more in 1349 (on the death of his
father Simon) so born about 1333. >>
You have the IPM for Simon? I haven't seen that quote yet, can you post what
you have on that? The brass in the church of Echyngham that was posted a
while ago here, stated that William's father was James.
So if you have this proof that Simon had a William as well, that would
indicate great doubt on the issue that Marie Shoyswell was the first wife of William
who d 18 Jan 1387/8
Thanks
Will
-
Gjest
Re: Sir William Brenchley
In a message dated 5/31/06 5:54:06 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
caramut@bigpond.com writes:
<< I would also note at this point that the excerpt from Hasted's History
of Kent makes Sir William Brenchley, chief justice of the common pleas.
This does not appear to be correct, see the Wikipedia list of all chief >>
I had found that also. I'd already changed him in my database to remove
"Chief" and just have him as a Justice
I also ran through A2A looking for Richard Wakehurst. He has a few more
documents, but nothing jumps out as useful to my eye.
Will
caramut@bigpond.com writes:
<< I would also note at this point that the excerpt from Hasted's History
of Kent makes Sir William Brenchley, chief justice of the common pleas.
This does not appear to be correct, see the Wikipedia list of all chief >>
I had found that also. I'd already changed him in my database to remove
"Chief" and just have him as a Justice
I also ran through A2A looking for Richard Wakehurst. He has a few more
documents, but nothing jumps out as useful to my eye.
Will
-
Todd A. Farmerie
Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England
WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
His grandmother is said by historical sources to be a Mercian royal, but
no precise connection is given. Further, (as with Wessex before
Ecgbert) the Mercian succession had fallen into a chaos of individuals
of unrecorded or dubious connections to the historical dynasty, or
outright usurpers, making it all the harder to rationalize any specific
connection.
It has been speculated that many of the Wessex Ealdormen were derived
from one or another of these royal clans brought into the Wessex power
structure at the highest level, but to go from there to saying that a
specific Ealdorman did . . . .
That Morcar was father of Edward AEtheling is again speculative, based
on a sequence of identifications of individuals in various sources, but
far from certain.
taf
Okay Leo I have that Edward King of England 901-24 was also a great-grandson
of Coenwulf, King of Mercia.
His grandmother is said by historical sources to be a Mercian royal, but
no precise connection is given. Further, (as with Wessex before
Ecgbert) the Mercian succession had fallen into a chaos of individuals
of unrecorded or dubious connections to the historical dynasty, or
outright usurpers, making it all the harder to rationalize any specific
connection.
I wonder if Ealdorman Ordgar of Devonshire has any connection back to any of
these royal houses?
It has been speculated that many of the Wessex Ealdormen were derived
from one or another of these royal clans brought into the Wessex power
structure at the highest level, but to go from there to saying that a
specific Ealdorman did . . . .
Then you have also Morcar of Northumbria, grandfather of Edward "Atheling" d
1057
That Morcar was father of Edward AEtheling is again speculative, based
on a sequence of identifications of individuals in various sources, but
far from certain.
taf
-
Todd A. Farmerie
Re: Alberto Azzo II
WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
not "also"
When studied over a century ago there were numerous alternative
reconstructions - that Paula, daughter of Herbert married Lancelin and
was mother of Jean de la Fleche, that that Paula was wife of Jean, or
that Jean's wife was granddaughter of Herbert (and unavoidably, some
make Lancelin marry the aunt, and their son Jean marry the niece - why
choose one solution, when you can choose both). It was at that time
concluded that it was most likely that Jean de la Fleche, son of
Lancelin, married Paula, daughter of Herbert. I don't know if any more
recently discovered charters shed light on this question.
taf
In a message dated 5/25/06 10:14:57 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
ginnywagner@austin.rr.com writes:
Gersende was a daughter of Herbert I, Count of Maine, whose
father, Hugh I, was the first Count of Le Mans, from which
town the county took its name. Herbert I had also a son,
Hugh II, whose only son, Herbert II, died c.1063, s.p.
Gersende's sisters were Biotte, ctss of Mayenne, and Paule,
who married Lancelin I of Beaugency.
Did not this Paula also marry Jean, Seigneur de La Fleche and thereby have a
not "also"
child Helias (Elias) Count of Maine who, he, married Matilda and then Agnes of
Aquitaine
When studied over a century ago there were numerous alternative
reconstructions - that Paula, daughter of Herbert married Lancelin and
was mother of Jean de la Fleche, that that Paula was wife of Jean, or
that Jean's wife was granddaughter of Herbert (and unavoidably, some
make Lancelin marry the aunt, and their son Jean marry the niece - why
choose one solution, when you can choose both). It was at that time
concluded that it was most likely that Jean de la Fleche, son of
Lancelin, married Paula, daughter of Herbert. I don't know if any more
recently discovered charters shed light on this question.
taf
-
Todd A. Farmerie
Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England
WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
The documented children of Canute have no recorded children of their
own. There may have been unrecognized/undocumented children or
grandchildren, but being such, there can be no documented descent.
taf
In a message dated 5/26/06 1:51:58 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
renia@DELETEotenet.gr writes:
King Canute ascended the English throne in 1016 and reigned for 19
years. Harthacanute, his son, died 1042.
I'm not sure that Canute has any descendents today
I'm showing three children for him, none of which had themselves any
grandchildren.
Gunhild who m Henry III, HR Emperor had a daughter Beatrice, Abbess of
Quedlimburg, but that's it.
If anyone has descendents from Canute I'd like to hear about them.
The documented children of Canute have no recorded children of their
own. There may have been unrecognized/undocumented children or
grandchildren, but being such, there can be no documented descent.
taf
-
Todd A. Farmerie
Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England
Jwc1870@aol.com wrote:
Such a daughter is speculative, not documented.
taf
Dear Will,
According to David Williamson`s Kings and Queens of Britain
Appendix B Table 2 The Kings of Kent
Egbert II, King
of Kent abt 765-abt 780, Eadbert II Praen, King of Kent 796-798 and a daughter
married to Ealhmund of Wessex, Sub King of Kent in 784, parents of Egbert,
King of Wessex who shortly after his ascension in 802 also became King of Kent
Such a daughter is speculative, not documented.
taf
-
Louise Staley
Re: Kent Wills and the CRIOLS
WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
Sorry, you are right, the William who died 18 Jan 1388 father's name is
James and I can't find the reference that says William was 16 and more
in 1349, I will look a bit harder and see if it turns up
In a message dated 5/31/06 6:07:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
caramut@bigpond.com writes:
His father was described as 16 and more in 1349 (on the death of his
father Simon) so born about 1333.
You have the IPM for Simon? I haven't seen that quote yet, can you post what
you have on that? The brass in the church of Echyngham that was posted a
while ago here, stated that William's father was James.
Sorry, you are right, the William who died 18 Jan 1388 father's name is
James and I can't find the reference that says William was 16 and more
in 1349, I will look a bit harder and see if it turns up
So if you have this proof that Simon had a William as well, that would
indicate great doubt on the issue that Marie Shoyswell was the first wife of William
who d 18 Jan 1387/8
Thanks
Will
-
Gjest
Re: Brenchley/Echyngham
In a message dated 5/31/2006 9:04:43 PM Pacific Standard Time,
charcsmith@verizon.net writes:
WJhonson asked the above qiestion about the Brenchley /Echynghammaerial. A
Mr Hayley in 1740 went to the church and copied down all that he saw and
published it and so we have a history of what was in the church at that time.
some of the brass and material had been removed even then, but we have his
report of what it looked like in the 1700's and less there now. A first hand
report of what a person saw.
What is your source?
charcsmith@verizon.net writes:
WJhonson asked the above qiestion about the Brenchley /Echynghammaerial. A
Mr Hayley in 1740 went to the church and copied down all that he saw and
published it and so we have a history of what was in the church at that time.
some of the brass and material had been removed even then, but we have his
report of what it looked like in the 1700's and less there now. A first hand
report of what a person saw.
What is your source?
-
Gjest
Re: Echyngham/Batisford/Brenchesle
In a message dated 5/31/2006 9:19:42 PM Pacific Standard Time,
charcsmith@verizon.net writes:
James d 1349 and his heir was William d 1389, who built the church at
Echyngham and married maybe first Marie Shoyswell, 2nd Elizabeth Croil. He built
the church and was buried in the church. Shoyswell arms and croil arms on his
tomb. His brother John was an academican and received a Doctorate from
Oxford His brother Robert married Joan atta Gate of Dixter,. William d1412. was
the son of William d 1389 / William 1412 married lst Alice Batisford and
2nd Joan Fitzalan
But you say all this as if it's a fact and we haven't been debating it for
the past year. I'd say the evidence you've presented is in favor of the
William who married Shoyswell not being the William who married Crioll for one
thing.
Also I think you need to quote us where the Crioll arms on on William's
tomb. What you quoted in the past didn't say that at all.
charcsmith@verizon.net writes:
James d 1349 and his heir was William d 1389, who built the church at
Echyngham and married maybe first Marie Shoyswell, 2nd Elizabeth Croil. He built
the church and was buried in the church. Shoyswell arms and croil arms on his
tomb. His brother John was an academican and received a Doctorate from
Oxford His brother Robert married Joan atta Gate of Dixter,. William d1412. was
the son of William d 1389 / William 1412 married lst Alice Batisford and
2nd Joan Fitzalan
But you say all this as if it's a fact and we haven't been debating it for
the past year. I'd say the evidence you've presented is in favor of the
William who married Shoyswell not being the William who married Crioll for one
thing.
Also I think you need to quote us where the Crioll arms on on William's
tomb. What you quoted in the past didn't say that at all.
-
Gjest
Re: Kent Wills and the CRIOLS
In a message dated 5/31/2006 10:07:20 PM Pacific Standard Time,
caramut@bigpond.com writes:
Sorry, you are right, the William who died 18 Jan 1388 father's name is
James and I can't find the reference that says William was 16 and more
in 1349, I will look a bit harder and see if it turns up
I still think we're off.
The idea that the father of that William was James is an assumption based on
a few isolated facts. I think that's perhaps the crux of the problem.
Seperating the two William's might show that one married Shoyswell while the
other married Crioll and solve all the issues at once.
caramut@bigpond.com writes:
Sorry, you are right, the William who died 18 Jan 1388 father's name is
James and I can't find the reference that says William was 16 and more
in 1349, I will look a bit harder and see if it turns up
I still think we're off.
The idea that the father of that William was James is an assumption based on
a few isolated facts. I think that's perhaps the crux of the problem.
Seperating the two William's might show that one married Shoyswell while the
other married Crioll and solve all the issues at once.
-
Gjest
Re: Bertrada de Blanchminster
Thanks to the University of Iowa and Prof. Boynton there, I was able to come
up with the following from the CPR:-
CPR 1260, June 30th
Whereas, after the decease of William de Albo Monasterio,
between John de Warenna, asserting that the castle of
Whitchurch belonged to him as chief lord, and James de
Aldithley, a dispute arose over the keeping of the castle,
and the king, to pacify the dispute, ordered the castle
to be delivered to H.le Bygod, as above mentioned, and it
now appears that the said William held it of the said John
by knight service, it has been provided in the presence of
the said John and James by the council that seisin thereof
be given to the said John, to wit, such seisin as belongs
to the chief lord of the fee upon the death of a tenant so
that Bertreia the eldest born and one of the daughters and
heirs of the said William, who is of full age, and who
after the death of her father kept herself in the said
castle, shall remain therein in the same seisin in which
she was when it was delivered to the said justiciary
[le Bygod], and that the said John do for the said Bertreya
and her co-heirs, as regards the inheritance which the said
William held of him, swift justice according to law and the
custom of the realm. And that no prejudice may arise to the
said John or his heirs by reason of the king's taking the
said castle into his hands, the king has caused these
letters patent to be made for the said John.
CPR 1280, June 2nd
Ratification of a demise made by Ralph de Sanwyco, king's
steward, to Eleanor, late the wife of Roger Lestrange, of
a fourth part of the manor of Oswestry (de Albo Monasterio),
co. Salop, late of William de Albo Monasterio (which fourth
part fell to the purparty of Bertreda, daughter and one of
the heirs of the said William, and is in the king's hands
because she is non compos, to hold at will at a rent of £17.12s
Mandate to the said justiciary to cause the said castle to
be delivered to the said John.
I'm puzzled by the identification of the Album Monasterium as Oswestry.
Was it not Whitchurch, as indicated by the first of the above citations?
MM
up with the following from the CPR:-
CPR 1260, June 30th
Whereas, after the decease of William de Albo Monasterio,
between John de Warenna, asserting that the castle of
Whitchurch belonged to him as chief lord, and James de
Aldithley, a dispute arose over the keeping of the castle,
and the king, to pacify the dispute, ordered the castle
to be delivered to H.le Bygod, as above mentioned, and it
now appears that the said William held it of the said John
by knight service, it has been provided in the presence of
the said John and James by the council that seisin thereof
be given to the said John, to wit, such seisin as belongs
to the chief lord of the fee upon the death of a tenant so
that Bertreia the eldest born and one of the daughters and
heirs of the said William, who is of full age, and who
after the death of her father kept herself in the said
castle, shall remain therein in the same seisin in which
she was when it was delivered to the said justiciary
[le Bygod], and that the said John do for the said Bertreya
and her co-heirs, as regards the inheritance which the said
William held of him, swift justice according to law and the
custom of the realm. And that no prejudice may arise to the
said John or his heirs by reason of the king's taking the
said castle into his hands, the king has caused these
letters patent to be made for the said John.
CPR 1280, June 2nd
Ratification of a demise made by Ralph de Sanwyco, king's
steward, to Eleanor, late the wife of Roger Lestrange, of
a fourth part of the manor of Oswestry (de Albo Monasterio),
co. Salop, late of William de Albo Monasterio (which fourth
part fell to the purparty of Bertreda, daughter and one of
the heirs of the said William, and is in the king's hands
because she is non compos, to hold at will at a rent of £17.12s
Mandate to the said justiciary to cause the said castle to
be delivered to the said John.
I'm puzzled by the identification of the Album Monasterium as Oswestry.
Was it not Whitchurch, as indicated by the first of the above citations?
MM
-
Gjest
Re: Eleanor Fitzalan and Thomas Browne
In a message dated 5/30/06 5:39:53 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
ADRIANCHANNING@aol.com writes:
<<
ISSUE OF RICHARD by m1 Isabel le Despenser
1. [004 EDMUND (c1327->1377) knt (1352): made ill’ by parents annulment;
m<Jul 1349 Sibyl d of WILLIAM MONTAGU 1Er of SALISBURY by Katherine d of
WILLIAM
de GRANDISON 1Bn >>
Will replied,
parents of Ankeret who m Richard, Lord Talbot. Is not this Mary also the
dau of
Richard FitzAlan and Isabel Despencer ?
Thanks
Will
Probably not, see
<_http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/cp/arundel.shtml_
(http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/cp/arundel.shtml) >
Adrian
ADRIANCHANNING@aol.com writes:
<<
ISSUE OF RICHARD by m1 Isabel le Despenser
1. [004 EDMUND (c1327->1377) knt (1352): made ill’ by parents annulment;
m<Jul 1349 Sibyl d of WILLIAM MONTAGU 1Er of SALISBURY by Katherine d of
WILLIAM
de GRANDISON 1Bn >>
Will replied,
What of Mary the wife of John, 4th Lord Strange of Blakemere (d 1361),
parents of Ankeret who m Richard, Lord Talbot. Is not this Mary also the
dau of
Richard FitzAlan and Isabel Despencer ?
Thanks
Will
Probably not, see
<_http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/cp/arundel.shtml_
(http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/cp/arundel.shtml) >
Adrian
-
Gjest
Re: Eudes la Zouche, senior and junior: a conjecture
Dear Pat, et al.,
Having limited time today, I noted your post and wanted to
make one quick correction.
My theory is not that Thomas la Zouche was a son of
Millicent de Cantilupo, but rather her brother-in-law. If you
closely review the chart I posted earlier (repeated below), it
indicates that there is a conjectured 'Eudes the elder', father
of Eudes (husband of Millicent) and Thomas. This would make
Eudes (husband of Millicent) a first cousin of the first Sir
Roger la Zouche of Lubbesthorpe (as conjectured), and of the
issue of Sir Alan la Zouche, instead of being Alan's brother.
[NOTE: this chart reflects known and conjectured relationships]
Sir Roger la Zouche = Margaret Bisset
I
__________________________I_________________________________
I I I I I
Sir Alan Sir William = Alice = Eudes Lora
d. 1270 of Norton Sir William I = Gilbert
m. bef 1242 & Hobrugge de Harcourt I de Sanford
Ellen de = 1) Maud de 'ca. 1250' I m. bef 1249
Quincy I Hobrugge I
I = 2) Joan I
___________I I________ ________I_______
I I I I I
Joyce William Sir Roger Eudes Thomas
= Robert (dsp) of Lubbesthorpe d. bef 25 'steward' to
de Mortimer d. bef 30 Sept Jun 1279 Millicent,
d. 1287 1302 = bef Dec 12 March 1280/1
____I___________ = Juliana 1273
I I I Millicent de Cantilupo
I I ___I___________________
I I I I I I
Hugh Sir William Sir Roger Eudo Alan Ralph
de la Zouche of
Mortimer Mortimer Lubbesthorpe
of Ashby
Chronologically, this would also work well with the 1250's record
of a Eudes la Zouche having given away his right to marry one Agatha
to Hugh de Mortimer.
More later (when time allows).
Cheers,
John
Having limited time today, I noted your post and wanted to
make one quick correction.
My theory is not that Thomas la Zouche was a son of
Millicent de Cantilupo, but rather her brother-in-law. If you
closely review the chart I posted earlier (repeated below), it
indicates that there is a conjectured 'Eudes the elder', father
of Eudes (husband of Millicent) and Thomas. This would make
Eudes (husband of Millicent) a first cousin of the first Sir
Roger la Zouche of Lubbesthorpe (as conjectured), and of the
issue of Sir Alan la Zouche, instead of being Alan's brother.
[NOTE: this chart reflects known and conjectured relationships]
Sir Roger la Zouche = Margaret Bisset
I
__________________________I_________________________________
I I I I I
Sir Alan Sir William = Alice = Eudes Lora
d. 1270 of Norton Sir William I = Gilbert
m. bef 1242 & Hobrugge de Harcourt I de Sanford
Ellen de = 1) Maud de 'ca. 1250' I m. bef 1249
Quincy I Hobrugge I
I = 2) Joan I
___________I I________ ________I_______
I I I I I
Joyce William Sir Roger Eudes Thomas
= Robert (dsp) of Lubbesthorpe d. bef 25 'steward' to
de Mortimer d. bef 30 Sept Jun 1279 Millicent,
d. 1287 1302 = bef Dec 12 March 1280/1
____I___________ = Juliana 1273
I I I Millicent de Cantilupo
I I ___I___________________
I I I I I I
Hugh Sir William Sir Roger Eudo Alan Ralph
de la Zouche of
Mortimer Mortimer Lubbesthorpe
of Ashby
Chronologically, this would also work well with the 1250's record
of a Eudes la Zouche having given away his right to marry one Agatha
to Hugh de Mortimer.
More later (when time allows).
Cheers,
John
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: Eleanor Arundel and Thomas Browne
Dear Will ~
Complete Peerage, 1 (1910): 242-244 (sub Arundel) states that Richard
de Arundel (incorrectly called Fitz Alan), 3rd Earl of Arundel (died
1376), had three children by his first marriage to Isabel le Despenser.
However, a close examination of the various papal petitions regarding
the dissolution of this marriage proves this couple had only one child,
Edmund de Arundel.
The other two children assigned to Isabel le Despenser by Complete
Peerage are as follows:
(1) Philippe, wife of Sir Richard Sergeaux. This woman was actually
one of the daughters and co-heirs of Edmund de Arundel, and thus was a
granddaughter of Isabel le Despenser. For proof of Philippe's
parentage, see Calendar of Close Rolls, 1396-1399 (published 1929), pp.
72, 84; Samuel E. Thorne, ed., Year Books of Richard II, 1382-1383
(Ames Foundation, vol. 2) (1996): 66-69.
(2) Isabel, wife of John le Strange. This woman was actually named
Mary and she was the wife of John le Strange, Lord Strange of
Blackmere. Mary was the sister of Richard de Arundel, 3rd Earl of
Arundel, as proved by her papal petition found in the following source:
W. H. Bliss, ed. Cal. Papal Registers: Petitions, 1342-1419, 1 (1896):
484. Other helpful sources include Desc. Cat. of Ancient Deeds, 3
(1900): 324-325 (Deed C.3059, where Mary's son, John le Strange, is
styled "nephew" to Richard, Earl of Arundel [died 1376]); Margaret
Aston, Thomas Arundel (1967), chart following page 431.
For instances of Richard, 3rd Earl of Arundel (died 1376), using the
Arundel surname, see Cal. Fine Rolls, 1327-1337 (1913): 181, 218;
Cal. Close Rolls, 1330-1333 (1898): 81, 381. I find that the Fitz
Alan surname was dropped by this family in favor of the surname, (de)
Arundel, about the year, 1313. For a detailed discussion of the change
in surnames, see Douglas Richardson, Plantagenet Ancestry (2004) and
Douglas Richardson, Magna Carta Ancestry (2005).
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
Complete Peerage, 1 (1910): 242-244 (sub Arundel) states that Richard
de Arundel (incorrectly called Fitz Alan), 3rd Earl of Arundel (died
1376), had three children by his first marriage to Isabel le Despenser.
However, a close examination of the various papal petitions regarding
the dissolution of this marriage proves this couple had only one child,
Edmund de Arundel.
The other two children assigned to Isabel le Despenser by Complete
Peerage are as follows:
(1) Philippe, wife of Sir Richard Sergeaux. This woman was actually
one of the daughters and co-heirs of Edmund de Arundel, and thus was a
granddaughter of Isabel le Despenser. For proof of Philippe's
parentage, see Calendar of Close Rolls, 1396-1399 (published 1929), pp.
72, 84; Samuel E. Thorne, ed., Year Books of Richard II, 1382-1383
(Ames Foundation, vol. 2) (1996): 66-69.
(2) Isabel, wife of John le Strange. This woman was actually named
Mary and she was the wife of John le Strange, Lord Strange of
Blackmere. Mary was the sister of Richard de Arundel, 3rd Earl of
Arundel, as proved by her papal petition found in the following source:
W. H. Bliss, ed. Cal. Papal Registers: Petitions, 1342-1419, 1 (1896):
484. Other helpful sources include Desc. Cat. of Ancient Deeds, 3
(1900): 324-325 (Deed C.3059, where Mary's son, John le Strange, is
styled "nephew" to Richard, Earl of Arundel [died 1376]); Margaret
Aston, Thomas Arundel (1967), chart following page 431.
For instances of Richard, 3rd Earl of Arundel (died 1376), using the
Arundel surname, see Cal. Fine Rolls, 1327-1337 (1913): 181, 218;
Cal. Close Rolls, 1330-1333 (1898): 81, 381. I find that the Fitz
Alan surname was dropped by this family in favor of the surname, (de)
Arundel, about the year, 1313. For a detailed discussion of the change
in surnames, see Douglas Richardson, Plantagenet Ancestry (2004) and
Douglas Richardson, Magna Carta Ancestry (2005).
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
-
John Brandon
Re: Dorothy Beresford Brodnax was Re: OT: 2006 Brayton/Reed
anyway). He advised me that the book would be published later in 2006 and so
we have to wait for "English Origins of Virginia Tidewater Families".
Of course--as with all of Paul's promises--we should not be surprised
if it never actually materializes!
-
Bob Turcott
Re: New Royal Gateway for Amiot Descendants
If you compare to the Gueret-Dumont line, for example, which
appeared in this newsgroup but didn't make it to journals yet,
you will see there is indeed limited interest, even if you may
add 1,000 or 10,000 ancestors with those royal lines.
Denis, I get about 1 or 2 inquirys per month from my websites of Meherenc
(Gueret-Dumont line).
There are lots of fascinating artifacts of new information that is becoming
available from some very formative authorities that know french protestant
noble families inside and out. New information
is becoming available because of my websites, however this information is
shared privately at this time with other researchers. A new Journal for this
line is certain, I wont author it or publish it online because it will spoil
the big surpise when completed. I have no plans to publish the journal, but
others may. My websites will give some information as a teaser but act as a
magnet for new information.
_________________________________________________________________
On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to
get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement
-
JDUVALL
RE: Dorothy Beresford Brodnax was Re: OT: 2006 Brayton/Reed
Leo,
Thanks for clearing this up. It was a bit of a puzzle, since there
appeared to be no record of such a work anywhere else, and it seems like
something a number of us would be interested in. Hopefully something
will be posted somewhere to indicate the scope and contents of the
volume (or series of volumes).
Thanks again.
Jeff Duvall
-----Original Message-----
From: Leo van de Pas [mailto:leovdpas@netspeed.com.au]
Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 6:49 PM
To: JDUVALL; GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Dorothy Beresford Brodnax was Re: OT: 2006 Brayton/Reed book
My website shows that I touched the details for Dorothy Beresford
Brodnax on
12 January 2006 and that the source for this information is the book by
John
Anderson Brayton and Paul C. Reed mentioned below.
The information, giving royal ancestors to Dorothy, was supplied to me
by
Paul Reed and he requested that the source was to be shown (as I would
have
anyway). He advised me that the book would be published later in 2006
and so
we have to wait for "English Origins of Virginia Tidewater Families".
However, what is not clear is that apparently this is a series of books,
not
just one volume.
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
----- Original Message -----
From: "JDUVALL" <jduvall@iupui.edu>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 12:25 AM
Subject: RE: OT: 2006 Brayton/Reed book
Thanks for clearing this up. It was a bit of a puzzle, since there
appeared to be no record of such a work anywhere else, and it seems like
something a number of us would be interested in. Hopefully something
will be posted somewhere to indicate the scope and contents of the
volume (or series of volumes).
Thanks again.
Jeff Duvall
-----Original Message-----
From: Leo van de Pas [mailto:leovdpas@netspeed.com.au]
Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 6:49 PM
To: JDUVALL; GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Dorothy Beresford Brodnax was Re: OT: 2006 Brayton/Reed book
My website shows that I touched the details for Dorothy Beresford
Brodnax on
12 January 2006 and that the source for this information is the book by
John
Anderson Brayton and Paul C. Reed mentioned below.
The information, giving royal ancestors to Dorothy, was supplied to me
by
Paul Reed and he requested that the source was to be shown (as I would
have
anyway). He advised me that the book would be published later in 2006
and so
we have to wait for "English Origins of Virginia Tidewater Families".
However, what is not clear is that apparently this is a series of books,
not
just one volume.
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
----- Original Message -----
From: "JDUVALL" <jduvall@iupui.edu>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 12:25 AM
Subject: RE: OT: 2006 Brayton/Reed book
I know that this OT and will probably drive at least some members of
the
list batty, but as someone with more than a few ancestors who settled
(or appeared, at any rate) in Virginia in the 17th century, I'm quite
curious to find out more about this new (2006) publication Tony
Hoskins
mentioned in his post on Dorothy Beresford Brodnax (*English Origins
of
Virginia Tidewater Families*) by John Anderson Brayton and Paul C.
Reed.
When was it published (it's not in WorldCat)? Is there a list of the
families included in the book posted somewhere?
Thanks
Jeff Duvall
-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Hoskins [mailto:hoskins@sonoma.lib.ca.us]
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 5:18 PM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: New 17th century American "Royal Gateway": Dorothy
(Beresford)Brodnax
Dorothy (Beresford) Brodnax (d. aft 23 July 1657) of Godmersham, Kent
and York County, Virginia.
Unsure whether this has been discussed already. If not, some of you
may
be aware of this already by virtue of _English Origins of Virginia
Tidewater Families_, 2006, by John Anderson and Paul C. Reed. But,
perhaps this news might be more widely disseminated. As
Secretary-Treasurer of the "Royal Bastards" ["Descendants of the
Illegitimate Sons and Daughters of the Kings of Britain"], we recently
accepted a lineage based on this new work.
Leo's site shows Dorothy (Beresford) Brodnax' ancestry:
http://www.genealogics.org/ahnentafel.p ... ree=LEO&pa
rentset=0&generations=8
Tony
Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404
707/545-0831, ext. 562
-
Gjest
Re: Bertrada de Blanchminster
Millerfairfield@aol.com schrieb:
Confusingly, it appears that both Oswestry and Whitchurch were known as
Album Monasterium/Blanc(h)minster etc. Both had castles as well.
MA-R
I'm puzzled by the identification of the Album Monasterium as Oswestry.
Was it not Whitchurch, as indicated by the first of the above citations?
Confusingly, it appears that both Oswestry and Whitchurch were known as
Album Monasterium/Blanc(h)minster etc. Both had castles as well.
MA-R
-
Matt Tompkins
Re: Sir William Brenchley
WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
Hello Will,
Sure - it's in the first volume from Richard II's reign. The earliest
references can be found easily by using the online Patent Roll site
mentioned by John Watson (http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/) and
searching against << Br*nch* r2v1 >>
Matt
Would you be willing to quote the earliest reference ? Or at least the exact
location of it in the online patent rolls ?
Hello Will,
Sure - it's in the first volume from Richard II's reign. The earliest
references can be found easily by using the online Patent Roll site
mentioned by John Watson (http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/) and
searching against << Br*nch* r2v1 >>
Matt
-
Gjest
Re: Sir William Brenchley
In a message dated 6/1/06 5:54:09 AM Pacific Daylight Time, mllt1@le.ac.uk
writes:
<< The Calendar of Patent
Rolls shows him serving on commissions of the peace, of gaol delivery,
for sea walls etc etc from 1377, initially in Kent but later in other
southern counties. Since he does not appear in the Patent Rolls before
1377 I think that may have been roughly the time of his call to the
coif. >>
Would you be willing to quote the earliest reference ? Or at least the exact
location of it in the online patent rolls ?
Reviewing again the extract of the information on Benenden, I find it
unlikely that Margaret (Brenchley) Moore could be even the granddaughter of Sir
William d 1406 on chronological grounds.
The idea that she inherited the manor of Benenden as daughter of John
Brenchley obviously speaks to the manor passing through the maternal line at some
point, but what point? If her ancestress was Joan "Batisford" then where did
Benenden come in?
I'm going to tentatively add another generation between John Brenchley and
William, but is it known in fact whether William had children ? That his wife
was *at least* 15 if not 25 years his junior, which we now known from his
citations in the patent rolls in addition to her own long life, makes it relatively
clear that she was a later wife.
So that would mean that perhaps William had a *first wife* of Joan Benenden.
Would Benenden then have been settled on a son at his marriage? Possibly.
Perhaps the Manor of Benenden can be found in the Patent Rolls as well in some
fashion that could tell us more about who was in charge of it in the time
period say 1370 to 1450. I don't feel its likely to have been the later wife Joan
Batisford, otherwise it would not be as obscure.
Will Johnson
writes:
<< The Calendar of Patent
Rolls shows him serving on commissions of the peace, of gaol delivery,
for sea walls etc etc from 1377, initially in Kent but later in other
southern counties. Since he does not appear in the Patent Rolls before
1377 I think that may have been roughly the time of his call to the
coif. >>
Would you be willing to quote the earliest reference ? Or at least the exact
location of it in the online patent rolls ?
Reviewing again the extract of the information on Benenden, I find it
unlikely that Margaret (Brenchley) Moore could be even the granddaughter of Sir
William d 1406 on chronological grounds.
The idea that she inherited the manor of Benenden as daughter of John
Brenchley obviously speaks to the manor passing through the maternal line at some
point, but what point? If her ancestress was Joan "Batisford" then where did
Benenden come in?
I'm going to tentatively add another generation between John Brenchley and
William, but is it known in fact whether William had children ? That his wife
was *at least* 15 if not 25 years his junior, which we now known from his
citations in the patent rolls in addition to her own long life, makes it relatively
clear that she was a later wife.
So that would mean that perhaps William had a *first wife* of Joan Benenden.
Would Benenden then have been settled on a son at his marriage? Possibly.
Perhaps the Manor of Benenden can be found in the Patent Rolls as well in some
fashion that could tell us more about who was in charge of it in the time
period say 1370 to 1450. I don't feel its likely to have been the later wife Joan
Batisford, otherwise it would not be as obscure.
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: Sir William Brenchley
By the way, this also corrects the following things which must be errors.
1) Joan Benenden d.s.p. -- Confusion with Joan Batisford the second wife who
did d.s.p in 1453. Joan Batisford may even have married William Brenchley
2) That the Manor of Benenden passed directly (or is implied to have) from
William Brenchley to his granddaughter or great-granddaughter Margaret
(Brenchley) Moore must be an error as they could not have been contemporaneous.
Will Johnson
1) Joan Benenden d.s.p. -- Confusion with Joan Batisford the second wife who
did d.s.p in 1453. Joan Batisford may even have married William Brenchley
2) That the Manor of Benenden passed directly (or is implied to have) from
William Brenchley to his granddaughter or great-granddaughter Margaret
(Brenchley) Moore must be an error as they could not have been contemporaneous.
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: Bertrada de Blanchminster
In a message dated 6/1/06 3:32:21 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
Millerfairfield@aol.com writes:
<< CPR 1260, June 30th
Whereas, after the decease of William de Albo Monasterio,
between John de Warenna, >>
Is this John Warenne, the Earl of Surrey ?
Or is there some other John Warenne who was an adult in 1260 ?
Thanks
Will Johnson
Millerfairfield@aol.com writes:
<< CPR 1260, June 30th
Whereas, after the decease of William de Albo Monasterio,
between John de Warenna, >>
Is this John Warenne, the Earl of Surrey ?
Or is there some other John Warenne who was an adult in 1260 ?
Thanks
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: Eleanor Fitzalan and Thomas Browne
In a message dated 6/1/06 3:55:02 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
ADRIANCHANNING@aol.com writes:
<<
Probably not, see
<_http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/cp/arundel.shtml_
(http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/cp/arundel.shtml) >
Adrian >>
I'm confused by this reference to a new placement for Mary FitzAlan, wife of
John, 4th Lord Strange of Blackmere
First it states that " Mary was a daughter of Edmund, the 9th earl, not
Richard, the 10th (see further details below). "
This would place Mary as a sister to Richard the 10th Earl
But then immediately below this it states that "Edmund, SON of Richard, 10th
earl of Arundel, had at least three daughters" [my emphasis] and then gives
them and ADDS this Mary in that location.
I think this last part is a mistake. Mary should not be a daughter of
Edmund, son of Richard, but rather, an aunt to this Edmund, which would match the
first statement and the remaining argument.
Will Johnson
ADRIANCHANNING@aol.com writes:
<<
Probably not, see
<_http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/cp/arundel.shtml_
(http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/cp/arundel.shtml) >
Adrian >>
I'm confused by this reference to a new placement for Mary FitzAlan, wife of
John, 4th Lord Strange of Blackmere
First it states that " Mary was a daughter of Edmund, the 9th earl, not
Richard, the 10th (see further details below). "
This would place Mary as a sister to Richard the 10th Earl
But then immediately below this it states that "Edmund, SON of Richard, 10th
earl of Arundel, had at least three daughters" [my emphasis] and then gives
them and ADDS this Mary in that location.
I think this last part is a mistake. Mary should not be a daughter of
Edmund, son of Richard, but rather, an aunt to this Edmund, which would match the
first statement and the remaining argument.
Will Johnson
-
Hal Bradley
Re: Bertrada de Blanchminster
Will,
This most likely is the earl of Surrey. John and William were second cousins once removed with a common descent from William II de Warenne and Isabel de Vermandois.
Hal Bradley
This most likely is the earl of Surrey. John and William were second cousins once removed with a common descent from William II de Warenne and Isabel de Vermandois.
Hal Bradley
From: WJhonson@aol.com
Date: Thu Jun 01 15:31:12 CDT 2006
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Bertrada de Blanchminster
In a message dated 6/1/06 3:32:21 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
Millerfairfield@aol.com writes:
CPR 1260, June 30th
Whereas, after the decease of William de Albo Monasterio,
between John de Warenna,
Is this John Warenne, the Earl of Surrey ?
Or is there some other John Warenne who was an adult in 1260 ?
Thanks
Will Johnson
-
Matt Tompkins
Re: Sir William Brenchley
WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
It means "Richard II, volume 1". If you just search against Br*nch*
you will get all occurrences of Brenchley, Bryncehley, Brencheslee (and
'branches') in every single volume. But if you add "r2v1" you only get
occurrences in the volume covering 1377-1381. This is explained on the
search page, in the box on the right headed "Search examples".
Matt
John Watson (http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/) and
searching against << Br*nch* r2v1
I don't understand. What does this "r2v1" mean?
It means "Richard II, volume 1". If you just search against Br*nch*
you will get all occurrences of Brenchley, Bryncehley, Brencheslee (and
'branches') in every single volume. But if you add "r2v1" you only get
occurrences in the volume covering 1377-1381. This is explained on the
search page, in the box on the right headed "Search examples".
Matt
-
Gjest
Re: Wills of Kent and Croil wills
In a message dated 5/31/06 11:22:49 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
caramut@bigpond.com writes:
<< And, as for the document you allude to, I assume you are referring to
this document below, which, as you say, you have posted before and
described as part of John Rykhill's 1415 IPM. In passing I note that
John Rykhill's mother, Rosa, mentions John as alive in her 1418 will so
either the 1415 date is incorrect or this is not his IPM but some other
document referring to him. >>
Louise, another interpretation is that this John is not that John.
Perhaps John of the 1415 IPM (if we can confirm this is actually the date and
that it's actually his IPM) is the father of William or the brother of
William.
Will Johnson
caramut@bigpond.com writes:
<< And, as for the document you allude to, I assume you are referring to
this document below, which, as you say, you have posted before and
described as part of John Rykhill's 1415 IPM. In passing I note that
John Rykhill's mother, Rosa, mentions John as alive in her 1418 will so
either the 1415 date is incorrect or this is not his IPM but some other
document referring to him. >>
Louise, another interpretation is that this John is not that John.
Perhaps John of the 1415 IPM (if we can confirm this is actually the date and
that it's actually his IPM) is the father of William or the brother of
William.
Will Johnson
-
Matt Tompkins
Re: Sir William Brenchley
WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
If he was born in 1350 then he became a Justice of the Common Pleas at
the age of 48 or 49, had probably become a sergeant at law when aged
about 35, possibly even younger, and was certainly sitting as a justice
on various commissions at the age of 27. This is also stretching it a
bit, especially when you consider the career path I outlined in my
posting about King's Sergeants. I think 1340 is the latest likely date
for his birth.
There is an online DNB biography of the Chief Justice he served under,
William Thirning, which might provide a comparative career path.
Unfortunately I can't access it from home.
Matt
I can't cotton to that. Can we make him maybe born in 1350 ?
I could see maybe a man marrying a woman 15 to 25 years his junior.
But when you get to 25 to 35 years... that's a bit of a stretch.
Certainly you'd think it would be gossiped about and show up somewhere before
now.
If he was born in 1350 then he became a Justice of the Common Pleas at
the age of 48 or 49, had probably become a sergeant at law when aged
about 35, possibly even younger, and was certainly sitting as a justice
on various commissions at the age of 27. This is also stretching it a
bit, especially when you consider the career path I outlined in my
posting about King's Sergeants. I think 1340 is the latest likely date
for his birth.
There is an online DNB biography of the Chief Justice he served under,
William Thirning, which might provide a comparative career path.
Unfortunately I can't access it from home.
Matt
-
Gjest
Re: Sir William Brenchley
In a message dated 6/1/06 2:08:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time, mllt1@le.ac.uk
writes:
<< John Watson (http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/) and
searching against << Br*nch* r2v1 >> >>
I don't understand. What does this "r2v1" mean?
writes:
<< John Watson (http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/) and
searching against << Br*nch* r2v1 >> >>
I don't understand. What does this "r2v1" mean?
-
Gjest
Re: Sir William Brenchley
In a message dated 6/1/06 2:09:20 PM Pacific Daylight Time, mllt1@le.ac.uk
writes:
<< Anyway, if he was 45 when he became a sergeant, and he became a
sergeant in 1385, then he would have been born in 1340, or earlier.
But that's a very rough guess. >>
I can't cotton to that. Can we make him maybe born in 1350 ?
I could see maybe a man marrying a woman 15 to 25 years his junior.
But when you get to 25 to 35 years... that's a bit of a stretch.
Certainly you'd think it would be gossiped about and show up somewhere before
now.
Will
writes:
<< Anyway, if he was 45 when he became a sergeant, and he became a
sergeant in 1385, then he would have been born in 1340, or earlier.
But that's a very rough guess. >>
I can't cotton to that. Can we make him maybe born in 1350 ?
I could see maybe a man marrying a woman 15 to 25 years his junior.
But when you get to 25 to 35 years... that's a bit of a stretch.
Certainly you'd think it would be gossiped about and show up somewhere before
now.
Will
-
Gjest
Re: Wills of Kent and Croil wills
In a message dated 5/31/06 11:22:49 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
caramut@bigpond.com writes:
<< A construction, I note, which fits
with Alice Batisford dying s.p. before 21 January 1406 so her sister's
son, Sir Roger Fiennes, could be the sole heir of his grandmother
Margery Peplesham. >>
Ahhh thank you again. I'm going to also add this under Sir William Brenchley
which would tie in to my idea that Joan Batisford was a second wife and that
the Manor of Benenden descended from a first wife to a son or grandson of
that first union.
Will Johnson
caramut@bigpond.com writes:
<< A construction, I note, which fits
with Alice Batisford dying s.p. before 21 January 1406 so her sister's
son, Sir Roger Fiennes, could be the sole heir of his grandmother
Margery Peplesham. >>
Ahhh thank you again. I'm going to also add this under Sir William Brenchley
which would tie in to my idea that Joan Batisford was a second wife and that
the Manor of Benenden descended from a first wife to a son or grandson of
that first union.
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: Eudes la Zouche, senior and junior: a conjecture
In a message dated 5/31/06 6:30:58 PM Pacific Daylight Time, pajunkin@cox.net
writes:
<< 8. 1292, a suit took place between william de bois [bosco}, plaintiff, and
peter helewell and john la zuche, defendants, concerning the manors of thorp
ernauld, brentingby, bushby, belgrave and stretton and two knights fees in
great peatling, aylmerthorpe, kyleby, and croston co. leicester, and divers
lands in weston, wibtoft &c. co. warwick.1295 edw. i gives leave for william
de bois (who held of him in capite) to enfeoff milicent de montalt (who also
held of him in capite) in a moiety of the manor of thorpe-ernauld, to the
use of her and her heirs, and their assigns. was this john also thought to
be milicent's son. certainly he was claiming an interest in her properties.
I don't think he is sueing his mother.
It's more likely this is a brother to her dead husband Eudes in my opinion.
Or a more remote first cousin perhaps.
Will
writes:
<< 8. 1292, a suit took place between william de bois [bosco}, plaintiff, and
peter helewell and john la zuche, defendants, concerning the manors of thorp
ernauld, brentingby, bushby, belgrave and stretton and two knights fees in
great peatling, aylmerthorpe, kyleby, and croston co. leicester, and divers
lands in weston, wibtoft &c. co. warwick.1295 edw. i gives leave for william
de bois (who held of him in capite) to enfeoff milicent de montalt (who also
held of him in capite) in a moiety of the manor of thorpe-ernauld, to the
use of her and her heirs, and their assigns. was this john also thought to
be milicent's son. certainly he was claiming an interest in her properties.
I don't think he is sueing his mother.
It's more likely this is a brother to her dead husband Eudes in my opinion.
Or a more remote first cousin perhaps.
Will
-
Gjest
Re: Eudes la Zouche, senior and junior: a conjecture
In a message dated 5/31/06 6:30:58 PM Pacific Daylight Time, pajunkin@cox.net
writes:
<< 11. when did milicent have these children in a six year marriage to Eudes
and when she was 30 plus: william, 1277; Elizabeth, Eleanor, Eve? The Inq.
of Millicent de Cantilupe del la Zouche de Monte Alto was taken 27 Edw. I
(1299) naming her son William, age 22 [b. 1277-Millicent almost 40], her
heir. Eudes, her busband, died ca. 1279.
We have a reference her to Thomas in 1307. Where does he fit among her
children? >>
I don't know how you know that Millicent was almost 40
I have a range of dates for her of 1239/1251 so she could have been as young
as 26. From your brackets, it appears that "almost 40" is your comment. But
based on what?
Thanks
Will Johnson
writes:
<< 11. when did milicent have these children in a six year marriage to Eudes
and when she was 30 plus: william, 1277; Elizabeth, Eleanor, Eve? The Inq.
of Millicent de Cantilupe del la Zouche de Monte Alto was taken 27 Edw. I
(1299) naming her son William, age 22 [b. 1277-Millicent almost 40], her
heir. Eudes, her busband, died ca. 1279.
We have a reference her to Thomas in 1307. Where does he fit among her
children? >>
I don't know how you know that Millicent was almost 40
I have a range of dates for her of 1239/1251 so she could have been as young
as 26. From your brackets, it appears that "almost 40" is your comment. But
based on what?
Thanks
Will Johnson
-
Ye Old One
Re: Re: Wills of Kent and Croil wills
On Thu, 1 Jun 2006 21:27:37 +0000 (UTC), WJhonson@aol.com enriched
this group when s/he wrote:
I've found something on the lands Joan controlled after
http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/h ... ge0419.pdf
June 14 1440, Westminster.
Its too long to retype here but it is worth a look as the lands
mentioned may act as pointers.
--
Bob.
this group when s/he wrote:
In a message dated 5/31/06 11:22:49 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
caramut@bigpond.com writes:
A construction, I note, which fits
with Alice Batisford dying s.p. before 21 January 1406 so her sister's
son, Sir Roger Fiennes, could be the sole heir of his grandmother
Margery Peplesham.
Ahhh thank you again. I'm going to also add this under Sir William Brenchley
which would tie in to my idea that Joan Batisford was a second wife and that
the Manor of Benenden descended from a first wife to a son or grandson of
that first union.
Will Johnson
I've found something on the lands Joan controlled after
http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/h ... ge0419.pdf
June 14 1440, Westminster.
Its too long to retype here but it is worth a look as the lands
mentioned may act as pointers.
--
Bob.
-
Louise Staley
Re: Bertrada de Blanchminster
Millerfairfield@aol.com wrote:
snip
that Bertreia the eldest born and one of the daughters and
heirs of the said William, who is of full age,
snip
CPR 1280, June 2nd
Ratification of a demise made by Ralph de Sanwyco, king's
steward, to Eleanor, late the wife of Roger Lestrange, of
a fourth part of the manor of Oswestry (de Albo Monasterio),
co. Salop, late of William de Albo Monasterio (which fourth
part fell to the purparty of Bertreda, daughter and one of
the heirs of the said William, and is in the king's hands
because she is non compos, to hold at will at a rent of £17.12s
Mandate to the said justiciary to cause the said castle to
be delivered to the said John.
Thanks for posting these, I'm interested that there were four co-heirs
of William. Bertraya Blancminster died s.p., I thought about 1280 but it
may have been later.
Does anyone have any information about the other daughters?
Louise
-
Gjest
Re: Dorothy (Beresford) Brodnax' line to Edward III?
In a message dated 6/1/06 4:25:59 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
hoskins@sonoma.lib.ca.us writes:
<< I wonder if Leo or anyone else can supply the identification of Rose
(Knyvett) Beresford, daughter of a John Knyvett, as the daughter of
*the* John Knyvett of Ashwellthorpe, in question. >>
Stirnet posits this link as well
http://www.stirnet.com/HTML/genie/briti ... yvett2.htm
hoskins@sonoma.lib.ca.us writes:
<< I wonder if Leo or anyone else can supply the identification of Rose
(Knyvett) Beresford, daughter of a John Knyvett, as the daughter of
*the* John Knyvett of Ashwellthorpe, in question. >>
Stirnet posits this link as well
http://www.stirnet.com/HTML/genie/briti ... yvett2.htm
-
Louise Staley
Re: Wills of Kent and Croil wills
Ye Old One wrote:
On Thu, 1 Jun 2006 21:27:37 +0000 (UTC), WJhonson@aol.com enriched
this group when s/he wrote:
In a message dated 5/31/06 11:22:49 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
caramut@bigpond.com writes:
A construction, I note, which fits
with Alice Batisford dying s.p. before 21 January 1406 so her sister's
son, Sir Roger Fiennes, could be the sole heir of his grandmother
Margery Peplesham.
Ahhh thank you again. I'm going to also add this under Sir William Brenchley
which would tie in to my idea that Joan Batisford was a second wife and that
the Manor of Benenden descended from a first wife to a son or grandson of
that first union.
Will Johnson
I've found something on the lands Joan controlled after
http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/h ... ge0419.pdf
June 14 1440, Westminster.
Its too long to retype here but it is worth a look as the lands
mentioned may act as pointers.
Very interesting Bob,
I see the eventual remainderman is Richard Brenchesle, is this a son
from a previous marriage or her son or someone else entirely? It looks
to me that he would be a son from a first marriage (or other heir)
making provision for the dower of the second wife.
However, if it is her son this is proof she is not the daughter of
Margery Peplesham as he would have been a co-heir, along with Roger Fiennes.
Louise
-
Tony Hoskins
Re: Dorothy (Beresford) Brodnax' line to Edward III?
"Stirnet posits this link as well".
Yes, thanks, I saw that. But, so far, I have found no citation to
documentation. The fact that Rose (Knyvett) Beresford's would-be father
also had a sister Rose (Knyvett) Reymes is indeed telling, but is
insufficient to make the connection.
Tony
Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404
707/545-0831, ext. 562
Yes, thanks, I saw that. But, so far, I have found no citation to
documentation. The fact that Rose (Knyvett) Beresford's would-be father
also had a sister Rose (Knyvett) Reymes is indeed telling, but is
insufficient to make the connection.
Tony
Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404
707/545-0831, ext. 562
-
Ken Ozanne
Re: Piddington
Linda,
Buckinghamshire Genealogical Society claims to have transcripts of
Cuddington marriages 1590-1812.
Bucks FHS has for sale the 1524 subsidy transcript for Buckingham. I
found no record for Piddington in the Buckinghamshire Visitations. There may
well be muster rolls preserved as well. But these two societies are probably
your best bet for further progress.
Best,
Ken
On 24/5/06 08:51, "GEN-MEDIEVAL-D-request@rootsweb.com"
<GEN-MEDIEVAL-D-request@rootsweb.com> wrote:
Buckinghamshire Genealogical Society claims to have transcripts of
Cuddington marriages 1590-1812.
Bucks FHS has for sale the 1524 subsidy transcript for Buckingham. I
found no record for Piddington in the Buckinghamshire Visitations. There may
well be muster rolls preserved as well. But these two societies are probably
your best bet for further progress.
Best,
Ken
On 24/5/06 08:51, "GEN-MEDIEVAL-D-request@rootsweb.com"
<GEN-MEDIEVAL-D-request@rootsweb.com> wrote:
From: "Chris Dickinson" <chris@dickinson.uk.net
Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 22:45:12 +0100
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Medieval records in England
Linda Hansen wrote:
I have been lurking for quite some time trying to find some help for my
dilemma researching my Piddington family in Cuddington, Bucks, England. I
am now beyond parish register time and have a couple of wills.
Presumably, since your date below is 1622, you mean that are now beyond
parish register time in that particular parish?
The first
belongs to Elizabeth Piddington d. 1622 who names her children but does not
indicate who her husband may be. The other two wills are of earlier time
1540 and 1559 respectively.
From reading recent posts it sounds like I may be out of luck trying to
determine who Elizabeth's husband may be and how he may connect to the
earlier Piddingtons. Is there a good place for me to look beyond parish
registers and wills?
This is pre-modern advice, not medieval!
A lot depends on the resources available for this family and place.
First of all, it's absolutely necessary to keep your horizons broad. Don't
says wills, say probate. Don't say Piddington, say Cuddington!
Has local probate been filmed by the LDS? If it has, get the film that
covers Piddington and any film that covers other family names of similar
status. Then sit down and skim through each reel - you'll start to find all
sorts of hints - people who leave things to Piddingtons in their wills
(often giving their family relationships); Piddingtons who are witnesses to
wills; debts to and from Piddingtons in inventories; inventory prizers who
are Piddingtons; bondsmen who are Piddingtons.
If the name is rare, and you discover a unknown male Piddington in any
context c.1610/20, then he is probably your Elizabeth's husband.
The four other main sources that might provide you with something are:
(1)
Items that have survived at a family or manorial level - admissions to
tenements, manorial courts, indentures. Some might already be listed on A2A,
others may not yet have been indexed.
(2)
Property conveyances that are stored at TNA. You may find, for instance,
that there is an index to Feet of Fines for your area.
(3)
Court of Chancery. This can take you back (if you are lucky) two or three
generations if there is a meaty land dispute.
(4)
Moving up a social level - Visitations, Victoria County Histories and the
like.
And ask on soc.genealogy.britain & Bucks-L. A significant contributer on
both lists, Eve McLaughlin, is Britain's best known genealogist.
Chris
-
Louise Staley
BRENCHLEY/BATISFORD (was: Wills of Kent and Croil)
Louise Staley wrote:
In answering my own question, I offer the following grant (DYK/12) from
the A2A database which says Richard was the son of William Brenchley and
Joan.
However I still think we are not yet out of the woods with this because
a later record (DYK/13) is a grant to Richard Brenchley on the same day
which suggest Joan was dead. We are possibly dealing with two Joans here
(Benenden and Batisford) which may be clouding it. Any thoughts?
As I noted above though, if Joan Batisford is the mother of Richard
Brenchley then she cannot be the daughter of Margery Peplesham as either
she or her son Richard would have been Margery's co-heir.
Louise
East Sussex Record Office: Archive of the Dyke family of Frant, Waldron
and Kent and the Penkherst family of Mayfield and Buxted
Reference: DYK/12
Grant
Creation dates: 18 Aug 1406
William Makenade, William Arderne, clerk, John Hall, Robert Suryndenne,
Thomas Wallere, John Brok, Richard Huntyngdon and William Champeneys, to
Joan, widow of William Brenchesle, kt
5 messuages, 100 acres of land, 16 acres of meadow, 50 acres of pasture,
32 acres of wood, 10s. 3d. of rent and the rent of 2 hens in Frant; 3s.
10d. and 5 farthings rent, and the rent of 5 hens in Pembury, Kent,
which they had of the gift of William Brenchesle, kt, which he had by a
fine from William Sunnynglegh and wife Margaret
To be held by JB for the term of her life and afterwards by her son
Richard Brenchesle
Seals: Seven, with fragment of an eighth, on tags, red wax; 1 the letter
R bound with hay; 2 a bird; 3 the letter M; 4 a crowned letter T; 5 a
stringed bugle-horn; 6 a talbot's head erased, with legend Iohn Hall
Reference: DYK/13
Grant
Creation dates: 18 Aug 1406
William Makenade and Thomas Norpynton, clerk, to Richard Brenchesle and
his heirs
Rent of 3 messuages, 200 acres land, 4 acres meadow, 100 acres pasture,
100 acres wood and 10d. of rent in Frant, Wadhurst and Mayfield which
were held by Joan, wife of William Brenchesle, kt for the term of her life
Recites that lands were granted by William Sunnynglegh to WM and
Nicholas and John Potyn, now deceased, and demised to Joan Brenchesle
Seals: two on tags, red wax; 1 the letter R; 2 a bird feeding another
Ye Old One wrote:
On Thu, 1 Jun 2006 21:27:37 +0000 (UTC), WJhonson@aol.com enriched
this group when s/he wrote:
In a message dated 5/31/06 11:22:49 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
caramut@bigpond.com writes:
A construction, I note, which fits
with Alice Batisford dying s.p. before 21 January 1406 so her sister's
son, Sir Roger Fiennes, could be the sole heir of his grandmother
Margery Peplesham.
Ahhh thank you again. I'm going to also add this under Sir William Brenchley
which would tie in to my idea that Joan Batisford was a second wife and that
the Manor of Benenden descended from a first wife to a son or grandson of
that first union.
Will Johnson
I've found something on the lands Joan controlled after
http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/h ... ge0419.pdf
June 14 1440, Westminster.
Its too long to retype here but it is worth a look as the lands
mentioned may act as pointers.
Very interesting Bob,
I see the eventual remainderman is Richard Brenchesle, is this a son
from a previous marriage or her son or someone else entirely? It looks
to me that he would be a son from a first marriage (or other heir)
making provision for the dower of the second wife.
However, if it is her son this is proof she is not the daughter of
Margery Peplesham as he would have been a co-heir, along with Roger Fiennes.
Louise
In answering my own question, I offer the following grant (DYK/12) from
the A2A database which says Richard was the son of William Brenchley and
Joan.
However I still think we are not yet out of the woods with this because
a later record (DYK/13) is a grant to Richard Brenchley on the same day
which suggest Joan was dead. We are possibly dealing with two Joans here
(Benenden and Batisford) which may be clouding it. Any thoughts?
As I noted above though, if Joan Batisford is the mother of Richard
Brenchley then she cannot be the daughter of Margery Peplesham as either
she or her son Richard would have been Margery's co-heir.
Louise
East Sussex Record Office: Archive of the Dyke family of Frant, Waldron
and Kent and the Penkherst family of Mayfield and Buxted
Reference: DYK/12
Grant
Creation dates: 18 Aug 1406
William Makenade, William Arderne, clerk, John Hall, Robert Suryndenne,
Thomas Wallere, John Brok, Richard Huntyngdon and William Champeneys, to
Joan, widow of William Brenchesle, kt
5 messuages, 100 acres of land, 16 acres of meadow, 50 acres of pasture,
32 acres of wood, 10s. 3d. of rent and the rent of 2 hens in Frant; 3s.
10d. and 5 farthings rent, and the rent of 5 hens in Pembury, Kent,
which they had of the gift of William Brenchesle, kt, which he had by a
fine from William Sunnynglegh and wife Margaret
To be held by JB for the term of her life and afterwards by her son
Richard Brenchesle
Seals: Seven, with fragment of an eighth, on tags, red wax; 1 the letter
R bound with hay; 2 a bird; 3 the letter M; 4 a crowned letter T; 5 a
stringed bugle-horn; 6 a talbot's head erased, with legend Iohn Hall
Reference: DYK/13
Grant
Creation dates: 18 Aug 1406
William Makenade and Thomas Norpynton, clerk, to Richard Brenchesle and
his heirs
Rent of 3 messuages, 200 acres land, 4 acres meadow, 100 acres pasture,
100 acres wood and 10d. of rent in Frant, Wadhurst and Mayfield which
were held by Joan, wife of William Brenchesle, kt for the term of her life
Recites that lands were granted by William Sunnynglegh to WM and
Nicholas and John Potyn, now deceased, and demised to Joan Brenchesle
Seals: two on tags, red wax; 1 the letter R; 2 a bird feeding another
-
Gjest
Re: Brenchley/Brenchesle
In a message dated 6/1/06 5:02:20 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
charcsmith@verizon.net writes:
<< DYK 13 18 Aug 1406
to be held by JB(Joan Brenchesle) for the term of her life and afterward
by her son Richard Brenchesle (they had mentioned Joan a widow of
William Brenchesle, kt in the paragraph before)
file lease for 7 yars at an annual rent of 8 marke ref DYK /13 118 Aug
1496
William Makenade and Thomas Norpynton clerk, to RAchard Brenchesle and his
heirs.
File Quitclaim DYK 15 29 May 1408
Thomas Brenchesle of Brenchesle, brother of William Brenchesle, kt, to
Joan, widow of William Brenchesle kt and Thomas Waltere
Note that we have a name of a son of Joan and William Brenchesle--Richard
The problem being that Louise has stated that Roger Fiennes was the only heir
of his grandmother Margery (Pepelsham) Batisford. She d 21 Jan 1406, so if
this is true, that would mean that Richard Brenchley above, son of Joan was not
a grandson of Margery Pepelsham.
So where does that leave us?
Will
charcsmith@verizon.net writes:
<< DYK 13 18 Aug 1406
to be held by JB(Joan Brenchesle) for the term of her life and afterward
by her son Richard Brenchesle (they had mentioned Joan a widow of
William Brenchesle, kt in the paragraph before)
file lease for 7 yars at an annual rent of 8 marke ref DYK /13 118 Aug
1496
William Makenade and Thomas Norpynton clerk, to RAchard Brenchesle and his
heirs.
File Quitclaim DYK 15 29 May 1408
Thomas Brenchesle of Brenchesle, brother of William Brenchesle, kt, to
Joan, widow of William Brenchesle kt and Thomas Waltere
Note that we have a name of a son of Joan and William Brenchesle--Richard
The problem being that Louise has stated that Roger Fiennes was the only heir
of his grandmother Margery (Pepelsham) Batisford. She d 21 Jan 1406, so if
this is true, that would mean that Richard Brenchley above, son of Joan was not
a grandson of Margery Pepelsham.
So where does that leave us?
Will
-
Patricia Junkin
Re: Eudes la Zouche, senior and junior: a conjecture
Sorry, Will, I don't follow here. It is a suit between William de Bosco and
Helewell and Zouche. He isn't suing his mother.
----------
Helewell and Zouche. He isn't suing his mother.
----------
From: WJhonson@aol.com
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Eudes la Zouche, senior and junior: a conjecture
Date: Thu, 1, 2006, 5:50 PM
In a message dated 5/31/06 6:30:58 PM Pacific Daylight Time, pajunkin@cox.net
writes:
8. 1292, a suit took place between william de bois [bosco}, plaintiff, and
peter helewell and john la zuche, defendants, concerning the manors of thorp
ernauld, brentingby, bushby, belgrave and stretton and two knights fees in
great peatling, aylmerthorpe, kyleby, and croston co. leicester, and divers
lands in weston, wibtoft &c. co. warwick.1295 edw. i gives leave for william
de bois (who held of him in capite) to enfeoff milicent de montalt (who also
held of him in capite) in a moiety of the manor of thorpe-ernauld, to the
use of her and her heirs, and their assigns. was this john also thought to
be milicent's son. certainly he was claiming an interest in her properties.
I don't think he is sueing his mother.
It's more likely this is a brother to her dead husband Eudes in my opinion.
Or a more remote first cousin perhaps.
Will
-
Gjest
Re: Eudes la Zouche, senior and junior: a conjecture
In a message dated 6/1/06 7:43:42 PM Pacific Daylight Time, pajunkin@cox.net
writes:
<< Based on the record that she was married to John Montaldt by 1255 per her
father's gift (refer to post-Cal. Misc. Inq)..so at least 15, say, by that
date and possibly more, born 1240 or before. Her brother, George was born in
1251. Even if we use the 1240 date, Milicent had her heir, William, at
37....... >>
I'm not sure it's safe to assume that she was of a certain age when she
married. There are other examples of females being married while quite young.
Will
writes:
<< Based on the record that she was married to John Montaldt by 1255 per her
father's gift (refer to post-Cal. Misc. Inq)..so at least 15, say, by that
date and possibly more, born 1240 or before. Her brother, George was born in
1251. Even if we use the 1240 date, Milicent had her heir, William, at
37....... >>
I'm not sure it's safe to assume that she was of a certain age when she
married. There are other examples of females being married while quite young.
Will
-
Todd A. Farmerie
Re: Bertrada de Blanchminster
Hal Bradley wrote:
The Whitchurch Warennes appear not to relate this closely. Clay, in his
Early Yorkshire Charters, showed that there were Warennes in Whitchurch
back to the time of Domesday. Still, The Surrey Warenne Earls were the
immediate feudal overlords of the Whitchurch Warennes, so it still is
most likely that this John de Warenne was the earl.
taf
This most likely is the earl of Surrey. John and William were second cousins once removed with a common descent from William II de Warenne and Isabel de Vermandois.
The Whitchurch Warennes appear not to relate this closely. Clay, in his
Early Yorkshire Charters, showed that there were Warennes in Whitchurch
back to the time of Domesday. Still, The Surrey Warenne Earls were the
immediate feudal overlords of the Whitchurch Warennes, so it still is
most likely that this John de Warenne was the earl.
taf
-
Ye Old One
Re: Re: Wills of Kent and Croil wills
On Fri, 02 Jun 2006 00:42:29 GMT, Louise Staley <caramut@bigpond.com>
enriched this group when s/he wrote:
This just get more and more complicated every time I look at it.
I started out a few weeks ago with Sir Wm as an isolated individual on
the tree. Other than his and Joan's wills I knew nothing whatsoever
about them. I also had John Brenchley (with varied dates given) who
ended up as Lord of the Manor of Benenden, m Margaret Golding, father
of Margaret Brenchley who married William Moore (again with different
dates from different sources).
Apart from Richard Brenchley - born about 1440 and died 1514 - who is
my direct ancestor, Sir William and John were the oldest Brenchleys
I'de found.
Now there are coming out of the woodwork in rapid order.
My head hurts, I'm going to lie down for a while
--
Bob.
enriched this group when s/he wrote:
Ye Old One wrote:
On Thu, 1 Jun 2006 21:27:37 +0000 (UTC), WJhonson@aol.com enriched
this group when s/he wrote:
In a message dated 5/31/06 11:22:49 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
caramut@bigpond.com writes:
A construction, I note, which fits
with Alice Batisford dying s.p. before 21 January 1406 so her sister's
son, Sir Roger Fiennes, could be the sole heir of his grandmother
Margery Peplesham.
Ahhh thank you again. I'm going to also add this under Sir William Brenchley
which would tie in to my idea that Joan Batisford was a second wife and that
the Manor of Benenden descended from a first wife to a son or grandson of
that first union.
Will Johnson
I've found something on the lands Joan controlled after
http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/h ... ge0419.pdf
June 14 1440, Westminster.
Its too long to retype here but it is worth a look as the lands
mentioned may act as pointers.
Very interesting Bob,
I see the eventual remainderman is Richard Brenchesle, is this a son
from a previous marriage or her son or someone else entirely? It looks
to me that he would be a son from a first marriage (or other heir)
making provision for the dower of the second wife.
However, if it is her son this is proof she is not the daughter of
Margery Peplesham as he would have been a co-heir, along with Roger Fiennes.
Louise
This just get more and more complicated every time I look at it.
I started out a few weeks ago with Sir Wm as an isolated individual on
the tree. Other than his and Joan's wills I knew nothing whatsoever
about them. I also had John Brenchley (with varied dates given) who
ended up as Lord of the Manor of Benenden, m Margaret Golding, father
of Margaret Brenchley who married William Moore (again with different
dates from different sources).
Apart from Richard Brenchley - born about 1440 and died 1514 - who is
my direct ancestor, Sir William and John were the oldest Brenchleys
I'de found.
Now there are coming out of the woodwork in rapid order.
My head hurts, I'm going to lie down for a while
--
Bob.
-
Chris Phillips
Re: Eleanor Fitzalan and Thomas Browne
Will Johnson wrote:
Sorry if the layout on that page is confusing. The first part, stating that
Mary was a daughter of Edmund, 9th earl, and that Edmund son of Richard had
at least three daughters, is meant to be a short summary of the corrections
to the quoted passage in CP, and then further details are given under
subheadings for these two points. So the three known daughters of Edmund son
of Richard are just Elizabeth, Philippa and Katherine - there's not meant to
be an implication that Mary was a fourth daughter.
Chris Phillips
Probably not, see
_http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/cp/arundel.shtml_
(http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/cp/arundel.shtml)
Adrian
I'm confused by this reference to a new placement for Mary FitzAlan, wife
of
John, 4th Lord Strange of Blackmere
First it states that " Mary was a daughter of Edmund, the 9th earl, not
Richard, the 10th (see further details below). "
This would place Mary as a sister to Richard the 10th Earl
But then immediately below this it states that "Edmund, SON of Richard,
10th
earl of Arundel, had at least three daughters" [my emphasis] and then
gives
them and ADDS this Mary in that location.
I think this last part is a mistake. Mary should not be a daughter of
Edmund, son of Richard, but rather, an aunt to this Edmund, which would
match the
first statement and the remaining argument.
Sorry if the layout on that page is confusing. The first part, stating that
Mary was a daughter of Edmund, 9th earl, and that Edmund son of Richard had
at least three daughters, is meant to be a short summary of the corrections
to the quoted passage in CP, and then further details are given under
subheadings for these two points. So the three known daughters of Edmund son
of Richard are just Elizabeth, Philippa and Katherine - there's not meant to
be an implication that Mary was a fourth daughter.
Chris Phillips
-
Gjest
Re: Beatrice, The Wife of William Briwere
Friday, 2 June, 2006
Dear Doug, Todd, John, et al.,
It would appear most likely that Beatrice de Valle (or de
Vaux), mistress of Reginald, earl of Cornwall (d. 1 Jul 1175) and
wife of Sir William de Briwerre (d. 1226) was the daughter of
Hubert de Vaux of Gilsland, Cumbs. and his wife Grace (or Grecia),
and not of their son Ranulf de Vaux (d. 1198):
1. The chronology concerning Beatrice makes this more likely
than not. Beatrice had at least 1 son (William) and 5
daughters (Grace, Isabel, Joan, Alice and Margery) by Sir
William. Of these, the third daughter Joan was the first
wife of Sir William de Percy (fl. ca. 1193 - 1245) whom we
might reasonably guess was born say 1190-1205, and most
likely say 1195-1200. Certainly placing at least two
births (Grace and Isabel) and possibly more between the
death of Earl Reginald and a point 15 years (1190) or later
does not strain the possibilities, although one might
wonder how many births or pregnancies might have also
occurred during the period and not been recorded.
Beatrice was most likely born some time before 1160, and
likely say 1155 (if not before), given the above, and the
fact that she had a son (Henry) by Earl Reginald (d. 1175).
Ranulf de Vaux (younger son and eventual heir of Hubert)
had a son and heir Robert de Vaux, who was born
sometime after 1177 (CP IX:406 according to my notes). It
is possible without further chronological detail that
Ranulf de Vaux could have had a daughter born some 20 years
or more earlier than Robert, but the likelihood is that
Beatrice was the sister of Ranulf de Vaux, and not his
daughter.
2. That Beatrice de Vaux belonged to this family is supported
by onomastic evidence. Her eldest daughter (Grace,
best known as first wife of Reginald de Braose)
was evidently named for Grace (or Grecia), wife of Hubert
de Vaux and mother (or grandmother by the Ranulf conjecture)
of Beatrice de Vaux.
Interestingly, as a minor Sir Reynold de Mohun of Dunster
(d. 1257/8), son of Alice de Briwere (4th daughter of Sir William
de Briwere and Beatrice de Vaux) had his wardship granted to Henry
FitzCount (now known to have been his uncle) in 1213, and then to
his grandfather William Briwere in 1222 (see CP IX:20). This
confirms other details as already discussed re: this family, and
provides further chronological evidence, if not proof, in this
matter.
Cheers,
John
Dear Doug, Todd, John, et al.,
It would appear most likely that Beatrice de Valle (or de
Vaux), mistress of Reginald, earl of Cornwall (d. 1 Jul 1175) and
wife of Sir William de Briwerre (d. 1226) was the daughter of
Hubert de Vaux of Gilsland, Cumbs. and his wife Grace (or Grecia),
and not of their son Ranulf de Vaux (d. 1198):
1. The chronology concerning Beatrice makes this more likely
than not. Beatrice had at least 1 son (William) and 5
daughters (Grace, Isabel, Joan, Alice and Margery) by Sir
William. Of these, the third daughter Joan was the first
wife of Sir William de Percy (fl. ca. 1193 - 1245) whom we
might reasonably guess was born say 1190-1205, and most
likely say 1195-1200. Certainly placing at least two
births (Grace and Isabel) and possibly more between the
death of Earl Reginald and a point 15 years (1190) or later
does not strain the possibilities, although one might
wonder how many births or pregnancies might have also
occurred during the period and not been recorded.
Beatrice was most likely born some time before 1160, and
likely say 1155 (if not before), given the above, and the
fact that she had a son (Henry) by Earl Reginald (d. 1175).
Ranulf de Vaux (younger son and eventual heir of Hubert)
had a son and heir Robert de Vaux, who was born
sometime after 1177 (CP IX:406 according to my notes). It
is possible without further chronological detail that
Ranulf de Vaux could have had a daughter born some 20 years
or more earlier than Robert, but the likelihood is that
Beatrice was the sister of Ranulf de Vaux, and not his
daughter.
2. That Beatrice de Vaux belonged to this family is supported
by onomastic evidence. Her eldest daughter (Grace,
best known as first wife of Reginald de Braose)
was evidently named for Grace (or Grecia), wife of Hubert
de Vaux and mother (or grandmother by the Ranulf conjecture)
of Beatrice de Vaux.
Interestingly, as a minor Sir Reynold de Mohun of Dunster
(d. 1257/8), son of Alice de Briwere (4th daughter of Sir William
de Briwere and Beatrice de Vaux) had his wardship granted to Henry
FitzCount (now known to have been his uncle) in 1213, and then to
his grandfather William Briwere in 1222 (see CP IX:20). This
confirms other details as already discussed re: this family, and
provides further chronological evidence, if not proof, in this
matter.
Cheers,
John
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: Dorothy (Beresford) Brodnax' line to Edward III?
Dear Will ~
I contacted "Mr. Stirnet" and asked him about Rose (Knyvet) Beresford.
He was unable to produce any documentation or source to prove that Rose
(Knyvet) Beresford was the daughter of John Knyvet, Esq., of
Ashwellthorpe, Norfolk, by Agnes Harcourt. I also contacted a Knyvet
family historian and he said he had never heard of Rose (Knyvet)
Beresford.
As Tony said, I wonder if anyone can supply the identification of Rose
(Knyvett) Beresford, daughter of a John Knyvett, as the daughter of
*the* John Knyvett of Ashwellthorpe, in question. If the line is
unsound, it should be removed from Leo's website.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www. royalancestry. net
WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
I contacted "Mr. Stirnet" and asked him about Rose (Knyvet) Beresford.
He was unable to produce any documentation or source to prove that Rose
(Knyvet) Beresford was the daughter of John Knyvet, Esq., of
Ashwellthorpe, Norfolk, by Agnes Harcourt. I also contacted a Knyvet
family historian and he said he had never heard of Rose (Knyvet)
Beresford.
As Tony said, I wonder if anyone can supply the identification of Rose
(Knyvett) Beresford, daughter of a John Knyvett, as the daughter of
*the* John Knyvett of Ashwellthorpe, in question. If the line is
unsound, it should be removed from Leo's website.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www. royalancestry. net
WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 6/1/06 4:25:59 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
hoskins@sonoma.lib.ca.us writes:
I wonder if Leo or anyone else can supply the identification of Rose
(Knyvett) Beresford, daughter of a John Knyvett, as the daughter of
*the* John Knyvett of Ashwellthorpe, in question.
Stirnet posits this link as well
http://www.stirnet.com/HTML/genie/briti ... yvett2.htm
-
Gjest
Re: Eleanor Fitzalan and Thomas Browne
In a message dated 6/2/2006 2:52:54 AM Pacific Standard Time,
cgp@medievalgenealogy.org.uk writes:
Sorry if the layout on that page is confusing. The first part, stating that
Mary was a daughter of Edmund, 9th earl, and that Edmund son of Richard had
at least three daughters, is meant to be a short summary of the corrections
to the quoted passage in CP, and then further details are given under
subheadings for these two points. So the three known daughters of Edmund son
of Richard are just Elizabeth, Philippa and Katherine - there's not meant to
be an implication that Mary was a fourth daughter.
I figured out after looking at it three or four times, that the reference
there to Mary is supposed to be a sub-head
Maybe if it were seperated by a solid line or underlined or something it
would be set-off more clearly. At any rate, thanks for this page Chris, its
very useful!
Will
cgp@medievalgenealogy.org.uk writes:
Sorry if the layout on that page is confusing. The first part, stating that
Mary was a daughter of Edmund, 9th earl, and that Edmund son of Richard had
at least three daughters, is meant to be a short summary of the corrections
to the quoted passage in CP, and then further details are given under
subheadings for these two points. So the three known daughters of Edmund son
of Richard are just Elizabeth, Philippa and Katherine - there's not meant to
be an implication that Mary was a fourth daughter.
I figured out after looking at it three or four times, that the reference
there to Mary is supposed to be a sub-head
Maybe if it were seperated by a solid line or underlined or something it
would be set-off more clearly. At any rate, thanks for this page Chris, its
very useful!
Will
-
Hal Bradley
RE: Bertrada de Blanchminster
Todd,
Thanks for the ref to Clay. I was following Eyton on this one.
Hal Bradley
Thanks for the ref to Clay. I was following Eyton on this one.
Hal Bradley
-----Original Message-----
From: taf2@dialup-208-157-46-135.mho.net
[mailto:taf2@dialup-208-157-46-135.mho.net]On Behalf Of Todd
A. Farmerie
Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 10:15 PM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Bertrada de Blanchminster
Hal Bradley wrote:
This most likely is the earl of Surrey. John and William
were second cousins once removed with a common descent from
William II de Warenne and Isabel de Vermandois.
The Whitchurch Warennes appear not to relate this closely.
Clay, in his
Early Yorkshire Charters, showed that there were Warennes in
Whitchurch
back to the time of Domesday. Still, The Surrey Warenne Earls
were the
immediate feudal overlords of the Whitchurch Warennes, so it still is
most likely that this John de Warenne was the earl.
taf
-
Gjest
Re: Prince Charles' ancestor Sir Thomas Harris
In a message dated 6/2/06 12:07:32 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
starbuck95@hotmail.com writes:
<< Richard Hall, ofIdlecote, co. Warwick, gent. Marriage settlement of
said Richard and Joyce Hall, and also of Walter Savage, one of the sons
of Anne Daston,widow, wife of Anthony Daston, esquire, deceased, and
formerly the wife of Francis Savage, esquire, also deceased - and
Elizabeth Savage, now wife of the said Walter Savage and one of the
daughters and heiress apparent of the said Richard Hall; Conveyance by
Richard Hall to Anne Daston, William Savage, esquire, and Anthony
Savage, gent., two of the sons of said Anne, and brothers of the said
Walter, of a farm in Swarforde, co. Oxon, called Lyons Place, >>
If this is a marriage settlement, why isn't the place conveyed to the married
couple themselves?
Does this indicate they are under-age ?
Thanks
Will Johnson
starbuck95@hotmail.com writes:
<< Richard Hall, ofIdlecote, co. Warwick, gent. Marriage settlement of
said Richard and Joyce Hall, and also of Walter Savage, one of the sons
of Anne Daston,widow, wife of Anthony Daston, esquire, deceased, and
formerly the wife of Francis Savage, esquire, also deceased - and
Elizabeth Savage, now wife of the said Walter Savage and one of the
daughters and heiress apparent of the said Richard Hall; Conveyance by
Richard Hall to Anne Daston, William Savage, esquire, and Anthony
Savage, gent., two of the sons of said Anne, and brothers of the said
Walter, of a farm in Swarforde, co. Oxon, called Lyons Place, >>
If this is a marriage settlement, why isn't the place conveyed to the married
couple themselves?
Does this indicate they are under-age ?
Thanks
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: Dorothy (Beresford) Brodnax' line to Edward III?
In a message dated 6/2/06 8:37:47 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:
<< I contacted "Mr. Stirnet" and asked him about Rose (Knyvet) Beresford.
He was unable to produce any documentation or source to prove that Rose
(Knyvet) Beresford was the daughter of John Knyvet, Esq., of
Ashwellthorpe, Norfolk, by Agnes Harcourt. I also contacted a Knyvet
family historian and he said he had never heard of Rose (Knyvet)
Beresford. >>
If the Knyvet "family historian" has "never heard of Rose Knyvet"
Then the Knyvet "family historian" should be beaten with a stick, because she
is in the visitation records.
As you know.
Will
royalancestry@msn.com writes:
<< I contacted "Mr. Stirnet" and asked him about Rose (Knyvet) Beresford.
He was unable to produce any documentation or source to prove that Rose
(Knyvet) Beresford was the daughter of John Knyvet, Esq., of
Ashwellthorpe, Norfolk, by Agnes Harcourt. I also contacted a Knyvet
family historian and he said he had never heard of Rose (Knyvet)
Beresford. >>
If the Knyvet "family historian" has "never heard of Rose Knyvet"
Then the Knyvet "family historian" should be beaten with a stick, because she
is in the visitation records.
As you know.
Will
-
Gjest
Re: Dorothy (Beresford) Brodnax' line to Edward III?
In a message dated 6/2/06 12:48:33 PM Pacific Daylight Time, WJhonson@aol.com
writes:
<< If the Knyvet "family historian" has "never heard of Rose Knyvet"
Then the Knyvet "family historian" should be beaten with a stick, because
she
is in the visitation records.
As you know. >>
Well maybe that's a little harsh. Let me quote Douglas Richardson on the
exact documentation that identifies Rose (Knyvet) Beresford. These two items make
clear that such a person did exist. Perhaps what you meant was, which John
was her John? Not questioning that she existed at all.
Will
Subj: Rose Knyvet, wife of Michael Beresford, Esq.
Date: 2/27/06 4:53:01 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: royalancestry@msn.com (Douglas Richardson)
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Michael Beresford, Esq., of Squerries (in Westerham), Kent, died 1608,
married as his first wife, Rose Knyvet, daughter of John Knyvet. This marriage is
indicated by two Kent Visitation records as follows:
1. Philipot, Vis. of Kent 1619-21 (H.S.P. 42) (1898): 172 (1619 Vis.)
(Beresford pedigree: "Michaell Beresford de Squirres in p[aro]chia de Westram in co'
Cantij. = Rosa filia Joh'is Kneute de ....").
2. Benolte & Cooke, Vis. of Kent 1530-1, 1574 & 1592 1 (H.S.P. 74) (1923): 28
(1574 Vis.) (Beresford pedigree: "Mihell Beresford of Oteford in Kent = Rose
daughter of John Kneuitt").
writes:
<< If the Knyvet "family historian" has "never heard of Rose Knyvet"
Then the Knyvet "family historian" should be beaten with a stick, because
she
is in the visitation records.
As you know. >>
Well maybe that's a little harsh. Let me quote Douglas Richardson on the
exact documentation that identifies Rose (Knyvet) Beresford. These two items make
clear that such a person did exist. Perhaps what you meant was, which John
was her John? Not questioning that she existed at all.
Will
Subj: Rose Knyvet, wife of Michael Beresford, Esq.
Date: 2/27/06 4:53:01 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: royalancestry@msn.com (Douglas Richardson)
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Michael Beresford, Esq., of Squerries (in Westerham), Kent, died 1608,
married as his first wife, Rose Knyvet, daughter of John Knyvet. This marriage is
indicated by two Kent Visitation records as follows:
1. Philipot, Vis. of Kent 1619-21 (H.S.P. 42) (1898): 172 (1619 Vis.)
(Beresford pedigree: "Michaell Beresford de Squirres in p[aro]chia de Westram in co'
Cantij. = Rosa filia Joh'is Kneute de ....").
2. Benolte & Cooke, Vis. of Kent 1530-1, 1574 & 1592 1 (H.S.P. 74) (1923): 28
(1574 Vis.) (Beresford pedigree: "Mihell Beresford of Oteford in Kent = Rose
daughter of John Kneuitt").
-
Gjest
Re: Wills of Kent and Croil wills
In a message dated 6/2/06 1:07:56 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
charlotsmith@prodigy.net writes:
<< The 1415 inquisiton by John Rykhill was in answer to this. giving
description of property etc. Inquistion no 503 begins on page `278,John
Rykhill's item is on page 280
It's not an IPM *of* him. It's an IPM in which he is named. "William
Echyingham and his wife had two daughters...."
Could this be an IPM for William ? He d 20 Mar 1412/3. The IPM is perhaps a
little late, being two years afterward, but .... possible ?
Will
charlotsmith@prodigy.net writes:
<< The 1415 inquisiton by John Rykhill was in answer to this. giving
description of property etc. Inquistion no 503 begins on page `278,John
Rykhill's item is on page 280
It's not an IPM *of* him. It's an IPM in which he is named. "William
Echyingham and his wife had two daughters...."
Could this be an IPM for William ? He d 20 Mar 1412/3. The IPM is perhaps a
little late, being two years afterward, but .... possible ?
Will
-
Gjest
Re: Prince Charles' ancestor Sir Thomas Harris
WJhonson@aol.com schrieb:
No; if they were underage, then the husband couldn't have been the
settlor (i.e. the person who provided the property for the settlement).
It was usual for the marriage settlement to be granted to third
parties, usually relatives of the bride, who acted as trustees for her
- remember that in England prior to the Married Women's Property Act,
married women could not own property - all their property belonged to
their husband - so making a settlement on trustees was the way to
safeguard it for the wife. This was still the custome until at least
quite recent times: I have all the paperwork for my Andrews
great-grandparents' marriage settlement in 1895, plus subsequent
changes to the trustees.
MA-R
If this is a marriage settlement, why isn't the place conveyed to the married
couple themselves?
Does this indicate they are under-age ?
No; if they were underage, then the husband couldn't have been the
settlor (i.e. the person who provided the property for the settlement).
It was usual for the marriage settlement to be granted to third
parties, usually relatives of the bride, who acted as trustees for her
- remember that in England prior to the Married Women's Property Act,
married women could not own property - all their property belonged to
their husband - so making a settlement on trustees was the way to
safeguard it for the wife. This was still the custome until at least
quite recent times: I have all the paperwork for my Andrews
great-grandparents' marriage settlement in 1895, plus subsequent
changes to the trustees.
MA-R
-
Gjest
Re: Prince Charles' ancestor Sir Thomas Harris
In a message dated 6/2/06 2:37:57 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
mjcar@btinternet.com writes:
<< No; if they were underage, then the husband couldn't have been the
settlor (i.e. the person who provided the property for the settlement).
It was usual for the marriage settlement to be granted to third
parties, usually relatives of the bride, who acted as trustees for her >>
So these particular two parties must be underage ? Or at least the groom must
be. Is that right?
Thanks
Will
mjcar@btinternet.com writes:
<< No; if they were underage, then the husband couldn't have been the
settlor (i.e. the person who provided the property for the settlement).
It was usual for the marriage settlement to be granted to third
parties, usually relatives of the bride, who acted as trustees for her >>
So these particular two parties must be underage ? Or at least the groom must
be. Is that right?
Thanks
Will
-
Louise Staley
Re: Wills of Kent and Croil wills
WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
Writ of Inquisition Ad Quod Damnum and Inquisition and the comments by
John Rykhill were in answer to this. This is quite important because it
was John Rykhill himself talking about his wife and sister-in-law as
daughters of Joan Fitzalan. To my mind this is even more compelling
evidence than had this been John's IPM. Juries are known to make
mistakes whereas it is unlikely John would not know his own
mother-in-law's name, particularly if the land in question came through her.
Louise
In a message dated 6/2/06 1:07:56 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
charlotsmith@prodigy.net writes:
The 1415 inquisiton by John Rykhill was in answer to this. giving
description of property etc. Inquistion no 503 begins on page `278,John
Rykhill's item is on page 280
It's not an IPM *of* him. It's an IPM in which he is named. "William
Echyingham and his wife had two daughters...."
Could this be an IPM for William ? He d 20 Mar 1412/3. The IPM is perhaps a
little late, being two years afterward, but .... possible ?
Will
Charlotte Smith has just clarified her earlier posts to say it was a
Writ of Inquisition Ad Quod Damnum and Inquisition and the comments by
John Rykhill were in answer to this. This is quite important because it
was John Rykhill himself talking about his wife and sister-in-law as
daughters of Joan Fitzalan. To my mind this is even more compelling
evidence than had this been John's IPM. Juries are known to make
mistakes whereas it is unlikely John would not know his own
mother-in-law's name, particularly if the land in question came through her.
Louise
-
Gjest
Re: Beatrice, The Wife of William Briwere
If as you say Reynold de Mohun of Dunstar had his wardship granted in 1213,
then he was born by 1213.
Second you say that Alice his mother was "fourth daughter" of William de
Briwer and Beatrix de Vaux (or de Valle) and you say that Joan wife of William de
Percy was "third daughter"
but then you give Joan a birthrange of 1190/1205.
This can be corrected further to 1190/1200 as Alice "fourth daughter" had to
be at least age 13 when she gave birth to Reynold and thus Alice herself had
to be born by 1200
Her elder sister Joan, then, had to be born by 1199.
Will Johnson
then he was born by 1213.
Second you say that Alice his mother was "fourth daughter" of William de
Briwer and Beatrix de Vaux (or de Valle) and you say that Joan wife of William de
Percy was "third daughter"
but then you give Joan a birthrange of 1190/1205.
This can be corrected further to 1190/1200 as Alice "fourth daughter" had to
be at least age 13 when she gave birth to Reynold and thus Alice herself had
to be born by 1200
Her elder sister Joan, then, had to be born by 1199.
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: Wills of Kent and Croil wills
In a message dated 6/2/06 1:52:57 AM Pacific Daylight Time, usenet@mcsuk.net
writes:
<< I also had John Brenchley (with varied dates given) who
ended up as Lord of the Manor of Benenden, m Margaret Golding, father
of Margaret Brenchley who married William Moore (again with different
dates from different sources). >>
I think part of the problem with the "varied dates given" is that we are
dealing with more than one John Brenchley. That is evidenced by the Patent Rolls
link which gives John the elder and John the younger on the same page.
Probably someone has tried to merge them. There is still possible an
additional generation before we get to the Margaret Goldring as you had posted that
William Moore and Margaret Brenchley married "21 Henry VI" which would be
1543/4 which is rather late.
Perhaps a better date for "Margaret Goldring dau of Richard" might help.
Will
writes:
<< I also had John Brenchley (with varied dates given) who
ended up as Lord of the Manor of Benenden, m Margaret Golding, father
of Margaret Brenchley who married William Moore (again with different
dates from different sources). >>
I think part of the problem with the "varied dates given" is that we are
dealing with more than one John Brenchley. That is evidenced by the Patent Rolls
link which gives John the elder and John the younger on the same page.
Probably someone has tried to merge them. There is still possible an
additional generation before we get to the Margaret Goldring as you had posted that
William Moore and Margaret Brenchley married "21 Henry VI" which would be
1543/4 which is rather late.
Perhaps a better date for "Margaret Goldring dau of Richard" might help.
Will
-
Gjest
Re: Wills of Kent and Croil wills
In a message dated 6/2/06 6:07:44 PM Pacific Daylight Time, usenet@mcsuk.net
writes:
<< http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/r ... ge0440.pdf
Elizabeth complaining that lands had been seized by the king. >>
Ok this one, this is Elizabeth Crioll mother of
1) William Echyningham d 20 Mar 1412/3 and
2) Robert Echyningham, father-in-law of Richard Wakehurst
Right ?
Will
writes:
<< http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/r ... ge0440.pdf
Elizabeth complaining that lands had been seized by the king. >>
Ok this one, this is Elizabeth Crioll mother of
1) William Echyningham d 20 Mar 1412/3 and
2) Robert Echyningham, father-in-law of Richard Wakehurst
Right ?
Will
-
Louise Staley
Re: Wills of Kent and Croil wills
WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
Echyngham who died 18 Jan 1388, but I have never seen any proof that
Elizabeth was the mother of the children.
Louise
In a message dated 6/2/06 6:07:44 PM Pacific Daylight Time, usenet@mcsuk.net
writes:
http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/r ... ge0440.pdf
Elizabeth complaining that lands had been seized by the king.
Ok this one, this is Elizabeth Crioll mother of
1) William Echyningham d 20 Mar 1412/3 and
2) Robert Echyningham, father-in-law of Richard Wakehurst
Right ?
Will
Ummm, maybe. It appears to be Elizabeth Criol, wife of Sir William
Echyngham who died 18 Jan 1388, but I have never seen any proof that
Elizabeth was the mother of the children.
Louise
-
angcilla
Re: Wills of Kent and Croil wills
2) Robert Echyningham, father-in-law of Richard Wakehurst
Right ?
there has been a good website, but it is not on right now
http://www.greatdixter.co.uk that shows the Great Dixter manor and gives the
history. Here is what it says
Dixrer is first rcorded in 1220/ Most of the owners of he manor are
know from 1340. when it was he home of Hamo at Gate. His daughter Joan
married Robert de Ecingham and after their deaths, the property passed
to Robert's younger brother Richard and his descendants, one of whom
another Robert de Echyngham was in possession by 1411. Robert's daughter
Elizabeth married Richard Wakehurst who built the present house before
his death in 1451. Although Wakehurst had 2 daughters by the marriage
settlement the estate returned to the Etchingham on his widow's death
and from them it passed to Andrew Windsor etc etc/
The picture of the house and the Great hall with Echyngham coats of arms
carved still can be eeen. It is located in Sussex.
charlotte smith
--
Sent via Genealogy Newsgroups
http://www.genealogynewsgroups.com
Right ?
there has been a good website, but it is not on right now
http://www.greatdixter.co.uk that shows the Great Dixter manor and gives the
history. Here is what it says
Dixrer is first rcorded in 1220/ Most of the owners of he manor are
know from 1340. when it was he home of Hamo at Gate. His daughter Joan
married Robert de Ecingham and after their deaths, the property passed
to Robert's younger brother Richard and his descendants, one of whom
another Robert de Echyngham was in possession by 1411. Robert's daughter
Elizabeth married Richard Wakehurst who built the present house before
his death in 1451. Although Wakehurst had 2 daughters by the marriage
settlement the estate returned to the Etchingham on his widow's death
and from them it passed to Andrew Windsor etc etc/
The picture of the house and the Great hall with Echyngham coats of arms
carved still can be eeen. It is located in Sussex.
charlotte smith
--
Sent via Genealogy Newsgroups
http://www.genealogynewsgroups.com
-
John Watson
Re: Beatrice, The Wife of William Briwere
Dear Doug, John, et al,
Thank you all very much for your helpful information concerning
Beatrice.
It still does not answer my original question though, what could la
Raneleisa mean? I thought this might might be a clue to her identity.
Something to do with Rainald perhaps? Rainald soeur?
Regards,
John
Therav3@aol.com wrote:
Thank you all very much for your helpful information concerning
Beatrice.
It still does not answer my original question though, what could la
Raneleisa mean? I thought this might might be a clue to her identity.
Something to do with Rainald perhaps? Rainald soeur?
Regards,
John
Therav3@aol.com wrote:
Friday, 2 June, 2006
Dear Doug, Todd, John, et al.,
It would appear most likely that Beatrice de Valle (or de
Vaux), mistress of Reginald, earl of Cornwall (d. 1 Jul 1175) and
wife of Sir William de Briwerre (d. 1226) was the daughter of
Hubert de Vaux of Gilsland, Cumbs. and his wife Grace (or Grecia),
and not of their son Ranulf de Vaux (d. 1198):
1. The chronology concerning Beatrice makes this more likely
than not. Beatrice had at least 1 son (William) and 5
daughters (Grace, Isabel, Joan, Alice and Margery) by Sir
William. Of these, the third daughter Joan was the first
wife of Sir William de Percy (fl. ca. 1193 - 1245) whom we
might reasonably guess was born say 1190-1205, and most
likely say 1195-1200. Certainly placing at least two
births (Grace and Isabel) and possibly more between the
death of Earl Reginald and a point 15 years (1190) or later
does not strain the possibilities, although one might
wonder how many births or pregnancies might have also
occurred during the period and not been recorded.
Beatrice was most likely born some time before 1160, and
likely say 1155 (if not before), given the above, and the
fact that she had a son (Henry) by Earl Reginald (d. 1175).
Ranulf de Vaux (younger son and eventual heir of Hubert)
had a son and heir Robert de Vaux, who was born
sometime after 1177 (CP IX:406 according to my notes). It
is possible without further chronological detail that
Ranulf de Vaux could have had a daughter born some 20 years
or more earlier than Robert, but the likelihood is that
Beatrice was the sister of Ranulf de Vaux, and not his
daughter.
2. That Beatrice de Vaux belonged to this family is supported
by onomastic evidence. Her eldest daughter (Grace,
best known as first wife of Reginald de Braose)
was evidently named for Grace (or Grecia), wife of Hubert
de Vaux and mother (or grandmother by the Ranulf conjecture)
of Beatrice de Vaux.
Interestingly, as a minor Sir Reynold de Mohun of Dunster
(d. 1257/8), son of Alice de Briwere (4th daughter of Sir William
de Briwere and Beatrice de Vaux) had his wardship granted to Henry
FitzCount (now known to have been his uncle) in 1213, and then to
his grandfather William Briwere in 1222 (see CP IX:20). This
confirms other details as already discussed re: this family, and
provides further chronological evidence, if not proof, in this
matter.
Cheers,
John
-
Ye Old One
Re: Re: Wills of Kent and Croil wills
On Sat, 3 Jun 2006 02:05:03 +0000 (UTC), WJhonson@aol.com enriched
this group when s/he wrote:
I agree. It was only yesterday I discovered there was two of the
buggers lurking in history
Mow all I have to do is sort um out....
--
Bob.
this group when s/he wrote:
In a message dated 6/2/06 1:52:57 AM Pacific Daylight Time, usenet@mcsuk.net
writes:
I also had John Brenchley (with varied dates given) who
ended up as Lord of the Manor of Benenden, m Margaret Golding, father
of Margaret Brenchley who married William Moore (again with different
dates from different sources).
I think part of the problem with the "varied dates given" is that we are
dealing with more than one John Brenchley. That is evidenced by the Patent Rolls
link which gives John the elder and John the younger on the same page.
Probably someone has tried to merge them. There is still possible an
additional generation before we get to the Margaret Goldring as you had posted that
William Moore and Margaret Brenchley married "21 Henry VI" which would be
1543/4 which is rather late.
Perhaps a better date for "Margaret Goldring dau of Richard" might help.
Will
I agree. It was only yesterday I discovered there was two of the
buggers lurking in history
Mow all I have to do is sort um out....
--
Bob.
-
Gjest
Re: Prince Charles' ancestor Sir Thomas Harris
WJhonson@aol.com schrieb:
Er, no, as I stated and explained above, the opposite is true. If the
groom were underage, he could not have conveyed property for the
settlement. Furthermore, no conclusions can be drawn as to the age of
the bride from the terms of the settlement.
MA-R
In a message dated 6/2/06 2:37:57 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
mjcar@btinternet.com writes:
No; if they were underage, then the husband couldn't have been the
settlor (i.e. the person who provided the property for the settlement).
It was usual for the marriage settlement to be granted to third
parties, usually relatives of the bride, who acted as trustees for her
So these particular two parties must be underage ? Or at least the groom must
be. Is that right?
Er, no, as I stated and explained above, the opposite is true. If the
groom were underage, he could not have conveyed property for the
settlement. Furthermore, no conclusions can be drawn as to the age of
the bride from the terms of the settlement.
MA-R
-
Gjest
Re: Beatrice, The Wife of William Briwere
Dear John,
Hard though it might be to believe, maybe it means
Rainald`s liasion. any possibly that Torre was a gift to her from her former lover
rather than from her family ?
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
Hard though it might be to believe, maybe it means
Rainald`s liasion. any possibly that Torre was a gift to her from her former lover
rather than from her family ?
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
-
Gjest
Re: Prince Charles' ancestor Sir Thomas Harris
In a message dated 6/2/2006 12:19:49 PM Pacific Standard Time,
WJhonson@aol.com writes:
Richard Hall, ofIdlecote, co. Warwick, gent. Marriage settlement of
said Richard and Joyce Hall, and also of Walter Savage, one of the sons
of Anne Daston,widow, wife of Anthony Daston, esquire, deceased, and
formerly the wife of Francis Savage, esquire, also deceased - and
Elizabeth Savage, now wife of the said Walter Savage and one of the
daughters and heiress apparent of the said Richard Hall; Conveyance by
Richard Hall to Anne Daston, William Savage, esquire, and Anthony
Savage, gent., two of the sons of said Anne, and brothers of the said
Walter, of a farm in Swarforde, co. Oxon, called Lyons Place,
The groom didn't convey property.
The father of the bride did. Richard Hall, the father of the bride conveyed
property to a group of people, none of which was the groom Walter Savage.
So Walter was under-age ?
WJhonson@aol.com writes:
Richard Hall, ofIdlecote, co. Warwick, gent. Marriage settlement of
said Richard and Joyce Hall, and also of Walter Savage, one of the sons
of Anne Daston,widow, wife of Anthony Daston, esquire, deceased, and
formerly the wife of Francis Savage, esquire, also deceased - and
Elizabeth Savage, now wife of the said Walter Savage and one of the
daughters and heiress apparent of the said Richard Hall; Conveyance by
Richard Hall to Anne Daston, William Savage, esquire, and Anthony
Savage, gent., two of the sons of said Anne, and brothers of the said
Walter, of a farm in Swarforde, co. Oxon, called Lyons Place,
The groom didn't convey property.
The father of the bride did. Richard Hall, the father of the bride conveyed
property to a group of people, none of which was the groom Walter Savage.
So Walter was under-age ?
-
Gjest
Re: Prince Charles' ancestor Sir Thomas Harris
Dear Will,
You must be correct, Richard Hall, the bride Elizabeth`s
father conveyed property to Anne Daston, widow successively of Francis Savage
and William Daston and mther of the groom Walter Savage.
Sincerely,
James W
Cummings
Dixmont,
Maine USA
You must be correct, Richard Hall, the bride Elizabeth`s
father conveyed property to Anne Daston, widow successively of Francis Savage
and William Daston and mther of the groom Walter Savage.
Sincerely,
James W
Cummings
Dixmont,
Maine USA
-
Gjest
Re: Wills of Kent and Croil wills
In a message dated 6/2/2006 9:37:48 PM Pacific Standard Time,
charcsmith@verizon.net writes:
I will send a copy of
the arms to anyone via an attachment. It says S Jacoi de Echingham 7 Ed
III
I would like them, as well as a copy of the will you suggested you'd send to
anyone who wants them.
Will Johnson
charcsmith@verizon.net writes:
I will send a copy of
the arms to anyone via an attachment. It says S Jacoi de Echingham 7 Ed
III
I would like them, as well as a copy of the will you suggested you'd send to
anyone who wants them.
Will Johnson
-
Tony Hoskins
Re: New genealogical publication
"Also the house of Battenberg/Mountbatten."
I don't think so
I believe the chamberlain story 
Leo
Also of Leo's opinion was the late Lord Mountbatten and (secretly)
pretty much all of Europe's royals.
Tony
Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404
707/545-0831, ext. 562
I don't think so
Leo
Also of Leo's opinion was the late Lord Mountbatten and (secretly)
pretty much all of Europe's royals.
Tony
Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404
707/545-0831, ext. 562
-
Gjest
Re: Brittany was Re: William de Mohun's (d Oct 1193) ancesto
Saturday, 3 June, 2006
Dear Leo, et al.,
Following for your review is what I have for Stephen, 'count
of Brittany' (& c.) and his immediate issue. This is not
complete, as I note I have included nothing to date for his
son Henri, for example.
Besides the matter of Stephen's daughter Maud, wife of Walter
de Gant, there is a correction pointed out some time ago re:
Stephen's daughter Aginore (also called Aginore de Penthievre).
She was identified as the wife of Alan de Dinan, not Oliver by
Todd Farmerie (see Todd, Mike Talbot et al., <Vitri>, SGM,
June 24, 1998).
Cheers,
John
1 Stephen of Richmond
----------------------------------------
Death: 21 Apr 1135[1]
Burial: quire of St. Mary's, York
Occ: Lord of Richmond
Father: Eudo of Brittany (-1079)
Mother: NN
lord of the honour of Richmond (succeeded brother Alan by 1098)[1]
Succeeded to Breton lands of Geoffrey Boterel in 1093 or 1098, and
to honour of Richmond on death of brother Alan in 1093.
Benefactor of abbey of St. Mary, York (1125-1135)
founded Augustinian abbey of Ste. Croix and Guingamp, and Cistercian
abbey of Begard in 1130[2]
also styled 'Stephen, count of Brittany' [CP VIII:672][2]
Spouse: Hawisa[1]
Death: aft 1134[2]
Children: Alan 'the Black' (-1146)
Maud
Aginore
Olive (->1162)
1.1 Alan 'the Black' of Richmond
----------------------------------------
Death: 15 Sep 1146[3]
Occ: Lord of the 'Honour of Richmond' - 1146[3]
2nd son; succeeded to the honour of Richmond
Given lands of de Dunstanville in Cornwall by King Stephen,
1140 - assumed title of Earl of Cornwall.
Fought for Stephen at Battle of Lincoln, 2 Feb 1141 (defeated);
captured by Ranulf of Chester, paroled before Christmas 1141[2]
lst husband of Bertha of Brittany[4],[2]
Held to be first Earl of Richmond (CP X:788)[2]
Spouse: Bertha of Brittany
Death: bef 1167[2],[4]
Father: Conan III of Brittany (-1148)
Mother: Maud of England
Children: Conan IV (-1171)
Brian (-<1171)
1.1.1 Conan IV of Brittany
----------------------------------------
Death: 20 Feb 1171, probably Guingamp, Brittany[3],[4]
Occ: Duke of Brittany 1156-1166 and Earl of Richmond
Lord of Richmond, co. York.
Crossed to Brittany Sept 1156, captured Rennes, defeated and
captured his stepfather Eudon of Porhoet - recognized as Duke
of Brittany[2]
In England at the Council of Clarendon, Jan 1164 (ex. charter
at Wilton for Le Mont St. Michel)[2]
Conan, duke of Brittany and earl of Richmond, restored to Torfin fitz
Robert (de Manfield) the forfeited Manfield fee of 2 knights, held
of the honour of Richmond, ca. 1159-1171
' by Hermer his great-grandfather [attavus] and Godreda [Gutherith],
Hermer's daughter. ' [EYF 57, cites EYC V: 55 and the charter of
Duke Conan, EYC IV, no. 55[5]]
~ Note: given that Duke Conan was dispossessed of his honour of
Richmond by Henry II ca. 1166, this charter should be dated
ca. 1159 - 1166.
_______________________
Deposed from his duchy by Henry II: following his return to the
continent in 1166 and the capture of the castle of Fougeres
(July 1166), Henry II
'had decided on a more drastic solution to the problem of
Brittany and the insecurity of the marchlands. He seems to
have held Duke Conan responsible for failing to keep order,
and indeed the intervention of the constable of Normandy in
August 1164 suggests that Conan was either unwilling to
discipline his vassals or incapable of subduing them. Henry
deposed him: his heiress, the infant Constance, was
betrothed to Henry's seven-year-old son Geoffrey, and
Conan retired to his ancestral county of Guingamp.'[4]
1st husband of Margaret of Huntingdon
Spouse: Margaret of Huntingdon
Birth: abt 1150
Death: 1201[2]
Father: Henry of Scotland, Earl of Northumberland (~1115-1152)
Mother: Ada de Warenne (ca1120-1178)
Marr: 1160[2]
Children: Constance (ca1162-1201), Duchess of Brittany
1.1.2 Brian fitz Alan
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1171[5]
held 5 knights' fees of the Honour of Richmond[5]
cf. Clay, Early Yorkshire Families, p. 27[5]
Children: Alan fitz Brian (-ca1187), m. Agnes Haget
1.2 Maud of Brittany[2]
----------------------------------------
had the church and lands of St. Andrew in Swaledale as her
maritagium:
'Matildis filia consulis Stephani Brittaniae, uxor Walteri de
Gaunt', gave the church of St. Andrew in Swaledale to
Bridlington priory, from her maritagium, with the consent
of her lord (husband) Walter [Mon. Angl. VI(1):287, Num. IX[6]]
' Matilda, dau. Stephen, count of Brittany ' [ EYC II:433[7]]
Spouse: Walter de Gant
Death: 1139[2],[8]
Father: Gilbert de Gant (-ca1095)
Mother: Alice de Montfort
Children: Gilbert (ca1120-1156)
Alice
NN
Robert (-1191)
1.2.1 Gilbert de Gant
----------------------------------------
Birth: ca 1120[2]
Death: 1156, d.s.p.m.[2]
Occ: Earl of Lincoln
created Earl of Lincoln ca. 1147; d.s.p.m.[2]
his grant to the monks of Rufford confirmed by Sir Gilbert de Gant,
ca. 1200-1218:
' Confirmation of Grant Gilbert de Gant to Monks of Rufford all
lands in Rufford and lands which Gilbert Count of Lincoln gave
them in Eakring and 30 acres on banks of Trent at Kelham, lands
in Cracela, 2 bovates in Wilgebi which Ralph Selvanus held, land
in Barton ' - A2A, Nottinghamshire Archives: Savile of Rufford:
Deeds and Estate Papers [DD/SR/206 - DD/SR/215], TITLE DEEDS:
Yorkshire, Nottinghamshire, etc: Charters: Rufford,
ref. DD/SR/208/96[9]
Spouse: Rohese de Clare
Death: aft 1156[2]
Father: Richard de Clare (-1136)
Mother: Adeliza of Chester
Children: Alice (-1185), m. Simon III de St. Liz
1.2.2 Alice de Gant
----------------------------------------
manor of Empingham given as her marriage portion in marrying Roger
de Mowbray-cf. CP Vol X (Mowbray), p. 371n[2]
' Aaliz de Gant ', gave lands at 'Litlehage' to Fountains Abbey
[Mon.Angl. V:309, Num. LXXI[6] - confirmation by her son Nigel
de Mowbray]
m. 1stly Ilbert de Lacy,
2ndly Roger de Mowbray[2]
Spouse: Roger de Mowbray
Death: 1188, Palestine (or en route to England)[2]
Father: Nigel d'Aubigny (-ca1129)
Mother: Gundreda de Gournay
Children: Nigel de Mowbray, of Melton Mowbray (-1191)
Robert de Mowbray
NN, a nun at Abbaye des Dames, Caen
1.2.3 NN de Gant[2]
----------------------------------------
sister of Gilbert de Gand, Earl of Lincoln (DP 326)[10]
see CP XII:437, sub _Welles_[2]
Spouse: William fitz Walter, of Wells, co. Lincs.
Death: bef 1198[2]
Father: Walter fitz Ragemer
Children: Robert fitz William, of Welle (-<1207)
Isabel, m. Robert fitz Hugh de Tateshal
1.2.4a Robert de Gant*
----------------------------------------
Death: 1191[8]
2nd husband
Charter, undated [est. c 1155 - 1191]:
' Charter of Robert de Gant reciting that when his brother Earl
Gilbert founded the abbey of Rufford he gave it all his domain
as is recited in the monks' charters, not excepting the church
of Aicringe which is situated in that domain and attesting that
this church belongs to the monks ' - A2A, Nottinghamshire
Archives: Savile of Rufford: Deeds and Estate Papers
[DD/SR/13 - DD/SR/205], DD/SR/102/35[9]
Spouse: Alice Pagnell
Children: Avice, m. Robert fitz Robert ('de Ghent')
1.2.4b Robert de Gant* (See above)
----------------------------------------
Spouse: Gunnor[2]
Children: Sir Gilbert de Gant, of Folkingham (ca1180-<1241)
Stephen
1.3 Aginore of Richmond[11]
----------------------------------------
also called Aginore de Penthievre[11] probably 'Aenor', given
granddaughter 'Eleanor' and her name.
identification as wife of Alan de Dinan, not Oliver by Todd A.
Farmerie (citing CP; versus identification as per K.S.B.
Keats-Rohan, Domesday Descendants p. 434[12])[11]
Spouse: Alan de Dinan[2]
Death: bef 1166[13]
Father: Geoffroi II de Dinan (->1122)
Mother: Orieldis
Children: Emma (-1208)
Roland (-<1190)
1.3.1 Emma de Dinan[2]
----------------------------------------
Death: 18 Dec 1208[11]
Spouse: Robert III de Vitre[2]
Death: ca 1184[11]
Father: Robert II de Vitre (-ca1161)
Mother: Emma de la Guerche
Children: Andre de Vitre
Eleanor, m. 1) William, Earl of 'Salisbury' [Wiltshire]
Alan de Dinan, of Burton, Northants.
1.3.2 Roland de Dinan
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1190, d.s.p.[13],[12]
of Burton, co. Northants.
held lands in Hartland, Devon (lost due to his support of Breton
rebellions against Henry II of England);
justiciar in Brittany for Geoffrey, duke of Brittany
(Henry II's son) [DD 434][12]
tenant of Burton in 1166 and 1173[13]
cf. Chope p. 421[14]
1.4a Olive of Richmond*
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 1162[12]
received manor of Long Bennington, co. Lincoln (maritagium ?) from
her father[3]
benefactor of the abbey of Lucerne together with then-husband
William de St. John and his brother Robert, 1162 (DD 691)[12]
she m. lstly Henry de Fougeres,
2ndly William de St. John[12]
Spouse: Henri de Fougeres [1st husband]
Death: 1154[3]
Father: Raoul de Fougeres (-1124)
Mother: Avice de Bienfaite
Children: Raoul II (-1194)
Clemence
1.4a.1 Raoul II de Fougeres
----------------------------------------
Death: 1194[3]
Occ: seigneur de Fougeres
seigneur de Fougeres
had guardianship of the seigneurie of Dol and the heiress
[evidently Iseulde, daughter of John], at bequest of John
of Dol 1162 (the castle of Dol taken by Henry II of England
in 1162).[4][cf DD 437, cites Robert de Torigny, 214[12]]
He therefore became an early opponent of Henry II:
'While Henry was in England [Jan 1163 - 1166] a league had
been formed among the border barons of Brittany and Maine, led
by Ralph de Fougeres, to resist his lordship.'[4]
castle of Fougeres razed by Henry's forces following its
capture, July 1166[4]
supporter of the Young King in his rebellion against Henry
II, 1173 - captured in 1174, imprisoned until ca 1177
(restored to his lands)[4]
made seneschal of Brittany by Duke Geoffrey, ca 1181[4]
deserted Henry II and joined the side of Philip and
Richard - forfeited for same by Richard, 1189[15]
Spouse: Jeanne de Dol[3]
Father: Geldouin de Dol (-1137)
Mother: Noga de Tinteniac
Children: Guillaume de Fougeres (-1187), m. Agatha de Humez
Margaret, m. Waleran de Meulan
1.4a.2 Clemence de Fougeres
----------------------------------------
'daughter of Henry de Fougeres' [DD 597[12]]
Spouse: Robert 'II' de Montfort
Death: 1178[12]
Father: Hugh de Montfort
Mother: Adeline de Beaumont
Children: Hugh
Robert
Raoul
William
Henry
Aline
1.4b Olive of Richmond* (See above)
----------------------------------------
Spouse: William de St. John [2nd husband]
Death: bef 1195, d.s.p.[12]
Father: Roger de St. John (-ca1130)
Mother: Cecily de la Haie
1. David C. Douglas, "William the Conqueror," University of
California Press (English Monarch Series), 1964.
2. G. E. Cokayne, "The Complete Peerage," 1910 - [microprint,
1982 (Alan Sutton) ], The Complete Peerage of England Scotland
Ireland Great Britain and the United Kingdom.
3. Frederick L. Weis (add/corr, Walter L Sheppard Jr.), "Ancestral
Roots of Certain American Colonists," Baltimore: Genealogical
Pub. Co.
4. W. L. Warren, "Henry II," University of California Press, 1973,
[English Monarchs Series].
5. Sir Charles Clay, ed., "Early Yorkshire Families," The Yorkshire
Archaeological Society, Record Series), 1973, Vol. CXXXV.
6. Sir William Dugdale, "Monasticon Anglicanum," London: Harding &
Lepard; and Longman Rees... Green, 1830, Vol. VI, Pt. 1 - Austin
Abbey of Wigmore, in Herefordshire, pp. 348-356 [Fundationis et
Fundatorum Historia], Vol. VI, Pt. 2 - Priory of Bullington,
co. Lincs., pp. 951-954, URL
http://monasticmatrix.usc.edu/bibliogra ... il&id=2659
7. William Farrer, Hon.D.Litt., Editor, "Early Yorkshire Charters,"
Ballantyne, Hanson & Co., Edinburgh, 1915-1916, Vol. II (1915)
Vol. III (1916), Vol. XII [the family of Constable of
Flamborough], courtesy Rosie Bevan, Vol. V [Manfield fee,
pp. 53-58 ], courtesy Rosie Bevan, <Re: Avice de Tanfield,
wife of Robert Marmion>, SGM, 26 Feb 2002.
8. I. J. Sanders, "English Baronies: A Study of Their Origin and
Descent, 1086-1327," Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1960.
9. "Access to Archives," http://www.a2a.pro.gov.uk/
10. Katherine S. B. Keats-Rohan, "Domesday People," The Boydell Press,
1999, Vol. I: A Prosopography of Persons Occurring in English
Documents 1066-1166, cites Robert de Torigni, Interpolations to
Gesta Normannorum Ducum of Guillaume of Jumieges, (ed. van Houts,
ii, 270) and identification of Gilbert fitzRichard as uncle of
Meen, seigneur de Fougeres (Rouleau Mortuaire du B. Vital abbe
de Savigni, edition phototypique par L. Delisle Paris (1909),
titre no. 182).
11. Mike Talbot, "Vitri," June 24, 1998, GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
additional commentary by Todd A. Farmerie (taf2@po.cwru.edu).
12. K. S. B. Keats-Rohan, "Domesday Descendants," The Boydell Press,
Woodbridge, 2002, cited by Rosie Bevan, 'Re: de Stuteville'
Jul 2, 2002, p. 723 (Osmund de Stuteville), full title: Domesday
Descendants: A Prosopography of Persons, Occurring in English
Documents 1066-1166: Pipe Rolls to Cartae Baronum.
13. Rosie Bevan, "Re: Eleanor de Vitre," August 15, 2002, paper copy:
library of John P. Ravilious, citations from Rosie Bevan :
rbevan@paradise.net.nz, citation from Victoria County History
of Northants., vol. 3, p. 181 [which cites Red Book of Exchequer,
Rolls series, 331-2; Great Roll of the Pipe (Pipe Roll Soc.), xi,
119; xii, 54; xxi, p.53].
14. "R. Pearse Chope," The Early History of the Manor of Hartland,
Report and Transactions of the Devonshire Association for the
Advancement of Science, Literature, and Art, Vol. XXXIV [Vol.
IV, 2nd series], Plymouth: W. Brendon and Son, 1902, pp. 418-449.
15. "Richard I," John Gillingham, New Haven: Yale University Press,
1999, 129, 152 (de Camville), Yale English Monarchs series.
Dear Leo, et al.,
Following for your review is what I have for Stephen, 'count
of Brittany' (& c.) and his immediate issue. This is not
complete, as I note I have included nothing to date for his
son Henri, for example.
Besides the matter of Stephen's daughter Maud, wife of Walter
de Gant, there is a correction pointed out some time ago re:
Stephen's daughter Aginore (also called Aginore de Penthievre).
She was identified as the wife of Alan de Dinan, not Oliver by
Todd Farmerie (see Todd, Mike Talbot et al., <Vitri>, SGM,
June 24, 1998).
Cheers,
John
1 Stephen of Richmond
----------------------------------------
Death: 21 Apr 1135[1]
Burial: quire of St. Mary's, York
Occ: Lord of Richmond
Father: Eudo of Brittany (-1079)
Mother: NN
lord of the honour of Richmond (succeeded brother Alan by 1098)[1]
Succeeded to Breton lands of Geoffrey Boterel in 1093 or 1098, and
to honour of Richmond on death of brother Alan in 1093.
Benefactor of abbey of St. Mary, York (1125-1135)
founded Augustinian abbey of Ste. Croix and Guingamp, and Cistercian
abbey of Begard in 1130[2]
also styled 'Stephen, count of Brittany' [CP VIII:672][2]
Spouse: Hawisa[1]
Death: aft 1134[2]
Children: Alan 'the Black' (-1146)
Maud
Aginore
Olive (->1162)
1.1 Alan 'the Black' of Richmond
----------------------------------------
Death: 15 Sep 1146[3]
Occ: Lord of the 'Honour of Richmond' - 1146[3]
2nd son; succeeded to the honour of Richmond
Given lands of de Dunstanville in Cornwall by King Stephen,
1140 - assumed title of Earl of Cornwall.
Fought for Stephen at Battle of Lincoln, 2 Feb 1141 (defeated);
captured by Ranulf of Chester, paroled before Christmas 1141[2]
lst husband of Bertha of Brittany[4],[2]
Held to be first Earl of Richmond (CP X:788)[2]
Spouse: Bertha of Brittany
Death: bef 1167[2],[4]
Father: Conan III of Brittany (-1148)
Mother: Maud of England
Children: Conan IV (-1171)
Brian (-<1171)
1.1.1 Conan IV of Brittany
----------------------------------------
Death: 20 Feb 1171, probably Guingamp, Brittany[3],[4]
Occ: Duke of Brittany 1156-1166 and Earl of Richmond
Lord of Richmond, co. York.
Crossed to Brittany Sept 1156, captured Rennes, defeated and
captured his stepfather Eudon of Porhoet - recognized as Duke
of Brittany[2]
In England at the Council of Clarendon, Jan 1164 (ex. charter
at Wilton for Le Mont St. Michel)[2]
Conan, duke of Brittany and earl of Richmond, restored to Torfin fitz
Robert (de Manfield) the forfeited Manfield fee of 2 knights, held
of the honour of Richmond, ca. 1159-1171
' by Hermer his great-grandfather [attavus] and Godreda [Gutherith],
Hermer's daughter. ' [EYF 57, cites EYC V: 55 and the charter of
Duke Conan, EYC IV, no. 55[5]]
~ Note: given that Duke Conan was dispossessed of his honour of
Richmond by Henry II ca. 1166, this charter should be dated
ca. 1159 - 1166.
_______________________
Deposed from his duchy by Henry II: following his return to the
continent in 1166 and the capture of the castle of Fougeres
(July 1166), Henry II
'had decided on a more drastic solution to the problem of
Brittany and the insecurity of the marchlands. He seems to
have held Duke Conan responsible for failing to keep order,
and indeed the intervention of the constable of Normandy in
August 1164 suggests that Conan was either unwilling to
discipline his vassals or incapable of subduing them. Henry
deposed him: his heiress, the infant Constance, was
betrothed to Henry's seven-year-old son Geoffrey, and
Conan retired to his ancestral county of Guingamp.'[4]
1st husband of Margaret of Huntingdon
Spouse: Margaret of Huntingdon
Birth: abt 1150
Death: 1201[2]
Father: Henry of Scotland, Earl of Northumberland (~1115-1152)
Mother: Ada de Warenne (ca1120-1178)
Marr: 1160[2]
Children: Constance (ca1162-1201), Duchess of Brittany
1.1.2 Brian fitz Alan
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1171[5]
held 5 knights' fees of the Honour of Richmond[5]
cf. Clay, Early Yorkshire Families, p. 27[5]
Children: Alan fitz Brian (-ca1187), m. Agnes Haget
1.2 Maud of Brittany[2]
----------------------------------------
had the church and lands of St. Andrew in Swaledale as her
maritagium:
'Matildis filia consulis Stephani Brittaniae, uxor Walteri de
Gaunt', gave the church of St. Andrew in Swaledale to
Bridlington priory, from her maritagium, with the consent
of her lord (husband) Walter [Mon. Angl. VI(1):287, Num. IX[6]]
' Matilda, dau. Stephen, count of Brittany ' [ EYC II:433[7]]
Spouse: Walter de Gant
Death: 1139[2],[8]
Father: Gilbert de Gant (-ca1095)
Mother: Alice de Montfort
Children: Gilbert (ca1120-1156)
Alice
NN
Robert (-1191)
1.2.1 Gilbert de Gant
----------------------------------------
Birth: ca 1120[2]
Death: 1156, d.s.p.m.[2]
Occ: Earl of Lincoln
created Earl of Lincoln ca. 1147; d.s.p.m.[2]
his grant to the monks of Rufford confirmed by Sir Gilbert de Gant,
ca. 1200-1218:
' Confirmation of Grant Gilbert de Gant to Monks of Rufford all
lands in Rufford and lands which Gilbert Count of Lincoln gave
them in Eakring and 30 acres on banks of Trent at Kelham, lands
in Cracela, 2 bovates in Wilgebi which Ralph Selvanus held, land
in Barton ' - A2A, Nottinghamshire Archives: Savile of Rufford:
Deeds and Estate Papers [DD/SR/206 - DD/SR/215], TITLE DEEDS:
Yorkshire, Nottinghamshire, etc: Charters: Rufford,
ref. DD/SR/208/96[9]
Spouse: Rohese de Clare
Death: aft 1156[2]
Father: Richard de Clare (-1136)
Mother: Adeliza of Chester
Children: Alice (-1185), m. Simon III de St. Liz
1.2.2 Alice de Gant
----------------------------------------
manor of Empingham given as her marriage portion in marrying Roger
de Mowbray-cf. CP Vol X (Mowbray), p. 371n[2]
' Aaliz de Gant ', gave lands at 'Litlehage' to Fountains Abbey
[Mon.Angl. V:309, Num. LXXI[6] - confirmation by her son Nigel
de Mowbray]
m. 1stly Ilbert de Lacy,
2ndly Roger de Mowbray[2]
Spouse: Roger de Mowbray
Death: 1188, Palestine (or en route to England)[2]
Father: Nigel d'Aubigny (-ca1129)
Mother: Gundreda de Gournay
Children: Nigel de Mowbray, of Melton Mowbray (-1191)
Robert de Mowbray
NN, a nun at Abbaye des Dames, Caen
1.2.3 NN de Gant[2]
----------------------------------------
sister of Gilbert de Gand, Earl of Lincoln (DP 326)[10]
see CP XII:437, sub _Welles_[2]
Spouse: William fitz Walter, of Wells, co. Lincs.
Death: bef 1198[2]
Father: Walter fitz Ragemer
Children: Robert fitz William, of Welle (-<1207)
Isabel, m. Robert fitz Hugh de Tateshal
1.2.4a Robert de Gant*
----------------------------------------
Death: 1191[8]
2nd husband
Charter, undated [est. c 1155 - 1191]:
' Charter of Robert de Gant reciting that when his brother Earl
Gilbert founded the abbey of Rufford he gave it all his domain
as is recited in the monks' charters, not excepting the church
of Aicringe which is situated in that domain and attesting that
this church belongs to the monks ' - A2A, Nottinghamshire
Archives: Savile of Rufford: Deeds and Estate Papers
[DD/SR/13 - DD/SR/205], DD/SR/102/35[9]
Spouse: Alice Pagnell
Children: Avice, m. Robert fitz Robert ('de Ghent')
1.2.4b Robert de Gant* (See above)
----------------------------------------
Spouse: Gunnor[2]
Children: Sir Gilbert de Gant, of Folkingham (ca1180-<1241)
Stephen
1.3 Aginore of Richmond[11]
----------------------------------------
also called Aginore de Penthievre[11] probably 'Aenor', given
granddaughter 'Eleanor' and her name.
identification as wife of Alan de Dinan, not Oliver by Todd A.
Farmerie (citing CP; versus identification as per K.S.B.
Keats-Rohan, Domesday Descendants p. 434[12])[11]
Spouse: Alan de Dinan[2]
Death: bef 1166[13]
Father: Geoffroi II de Dinan (->1122)
Mother: Orieldis
Children: Emma (-1208)
Roland (-<1190)
1.3.1 Emma de Dinan[2]
----------------------------------------
Death: 18 Dec 1208[11]
Spouse: Robert III de Vitre[2]
Death: ca 1184[11]
Father: Robert II de Vitre (-ca1161)
Mother: Emma de la Guerche
Children: Andre de Vitre
Eleanor, m. 1) William, Earl of 'Salisbury' [Wiltshire]
Alan de Dinan, of Burton, Northants.
1.3.2 Roland de Dinan
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1190, d.s.p.[13],[12]
of Burton, co. Northants.
held lands in Hartland, Devon (lost due to his support of Breton
rebellions against Henry II of England);
justiciar in Brittany for Geoffrey, duke of Brittany
(Henry II's son) [DD 434][12]
tenant of Burton in 1166 and 1173[13]
cf. Chope p. 421[14]
1.4a Olive of Richmond*
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 1162[12]
received manor of Long Bennington, co. Lincoln (maritagium ?) from
her father[3]
benefactor of the abbey of Lucerne together with then-husband
William de St. John and his brother Robert, 1162 (DD 691)[12]
she m. lstly Henry de Fougeres,
2ndly William de St. John[12]
Spouse: Henri de Fougeres [1st husband]
Death: 1154[3]
Father: Raoul de Fougeres (-1124)
Mother: Avice de Bienfaite
Children: Raoul II (-1194)
Clemence
1.4a.1 Raoul II de Fougeres
----------------------------------------
Death: 1194[3]
Occ: seigneur de Fougeres
seigneur de Fougeres
had guardianship of the seigneurie of Dol and the heiress
[evidently Iseulde, daughter of John], at bequest of John
of Dol 1162 (the castle of Dol taken by Henry II of England
in 1162).[4][cf DD 437, cites Robert de Torigny, 214[12]]
He therefore became an early opponent of Henry II:
'While Henry was in England [Jan 1163 - 1166] a league had
been formed among the border barons of Brittany and Maine, led
by Ralph de Fougeres, to resist his lordship.'[4]
castle of Fougeres razed by Henry's forces following its
capture, July 1166[4]
supporter of the Young King in his rebellion against Henry
II, 1173 - captured in 1174, imprisoned until ca 1177
(restored to his lands)[4]
made seneschal of Brittany by Duke Geoffrey, ca 1181[4]
deserted Henry II and joined the side of Philip and
Richard - forfeited for same by Richard, 1189[15]
Spouse: Jeanne de Dol[3]
Father: Geldouin de Dol (-1137)
Mother: Noga de Tinteniac
Children: Guillaume de Fougeres (-1187), m. Agatha de Humez
Margaret, m. Waleran de Meulan
1.4a.2 Clemence de Fougeres
----------------------------------------
'daughter of Henry de Fougeres' [DD 597[12]]
Spouse: Robert 'II' de Montfort
Death: 1178[12]
Father: Hugh de Montfort
Mother: Adeline de Beaumont
Children: Hugh
Robert
Raoul
William
Henry
Aline
1.4b Olive of Richmond* (See above)
----------------------------------------
Spouse: William de St. John [2nd husband]
Death: bef 1195, d.s.p.[12]
Father: Roger de St. John (-ca1130)
Mother: Cecily de la Haie
1. David C. Douglas, "William the Conqueror," University of
California Press (English Monarch Series), 1964.
2. G. E. Cokayne, "The Complete Peerage," 1910 - [microprint,
1982 (Alan Sutton) ], The Complete Peerage of England Scotland
Ireland Great Britain and the United Kingdom.
3. Frederick L. Weis (add/corr, Walter L Sheppard Jr.), "Ancestral
Roots of Certain American Colonists," Baltimore: Genealogical
Pub. Co.
4. W. L. Warren, "Henry II," University of California Press, 1973,
[English Monarchs Series].
5. Sir Charles Clay, ed., "Early Yorkshire Families," The Yorkshire
Archaeological Society, Record Series), 1973, Vol. CXXXV.
6. Sir William Dugdale, "Monasticon Anglicanum," London: Harding &
Lepard; and Longman Rees... Green, 1830, Vol. VI, Pt. 1 - Austin
Abbey of Wigmore, in Herefordshire, pp. 348-356 [Fundationis et
Fundatorum Historia], Vol. VI, Pt. 2 - Priory of Bullington,
co. Lincs., pp. 951-954, URL
http://monasticmatrix.usc.edu/bibliogra ... il&id=2659
7. William Farrer, Hon.D.Litt., Editor, "Early Yorkshire Charters,"
Ballantyne, Hanson & Co., Edinburgh, 1915-1916, Vol. II (1915)
Vol. III (1916), Vol. XII [the family of Constable of
Flamborough], courtesy Rosie Bevan, Vol. V [Manfield fee,
pp. 53-58 ], courtesy Rosie Bevan, <Re: Avice de Tanfield,
wife of Robert Marmion>, SGM, 26 Feb 2002.
8. I. J. Sanders, "English Baronies: A Study of Their Origin and
Descent, 1086-1327," Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1960.
9. "Access to Archives," http://www.a2a.pro.gov.uk/
10. Katherine S. B. Keats-Rohan, "Domesday People," The Boydell Press,
1999, Vol. I: A Prosopography of Persons Occurring in English
Documents 1066-1166, cites Robert de Torigni, Interpolations to
Gesta Normannorum Ducum of Guillaume of Jumieges, (ed. van Houts,
ii, 270) and identification of Gilbert fitzRichard as uncle of
Meen, seigneur de Fougeres (Rouleau Mortuaire du B. Vital abbe
de Savigni, edition phototypique par L. Delisle Paris (1909),
titre no. 182).
11. Mike Talbot, "Vitri," June 24, 1998, GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
additional commentary by Todd A. Farmerie (taf2@po.cwru.edu).
12. K. S. B. Keats-Rohan, "Domesday Descendants," The Boydell Press,
Woodbridge, 2002, cited by Rosie Bevan, 'Re: de Stuteville'
Jul 2, 2002, p. 723 (Osmund de Stuteville), full title: Domesday
Descendants: A Prosopography of Persons, Occurring in English
Documents 1066-1166: Pipe Rolls to Cartae Baronum.
13. Rosie Bevan, "Re: Eleanor de Vitre," August 15, 2002, paper copy:
library of John P. Ravilious, citations from Rosie Bevan :
rbevan@paradise.net.nz, citation from Victoria County History
of Northants., vol. 3, p. 181 [which cites Red Book of Exchequer,
Rolls series, 331-2; Great Roll of the Pipe (Pipe Roll Soc.), xi,
119; xii, 54; xxi, p.53].
14. "R. Pearse Chope," The Early History of the Manor of Hartland,
Report and Transactions of the Devonshire Association for the
Advancement of Science, Literature, and Art, Vol. XXXIV [Vol.
IV, 2nd series], Plymouth: W. Brendon and Son, 1902, pp. 418-449.
15. "Richard I," John Gillingham, New Haven: Yale University Press,
1999, 129, 152 (de Camville), Yale English Monarchs series.
-
Patricia Junkin
Re: Eudes la Zouche, senior and junior: a conjecture
Will,
You are correct, there is no positive proof I have found of her birth and
she could have been younger. Eve Braose d. bef. 1255, married after 1238,
William de Cantelou, d. 25 July 1254. The year before he had acquired
Lubbesthorpe. We know Milicent's brother, George, was born ca. 1251. We
believe Milicent was married in 1254 when her father, dying fairly young
conveys rents to John de Montaldt. By 1255, she was marriageable and without
the firm data one could argue her father was gifting in anticipation of a
marriage.
Pat
----------
You are correct, there is no positive proof I have found of her birth and
she could have been younger. Eve Braose d. bef. 1255, married after 1238,
William de Cantelou, d. 25 July 1254. The year before he had acquired
Lubbesthorpe. We know Milicent's brother, George, was born ca. 1251. We
believe Milicent was married in 1254 when her father, dying fairly young
conveys rents to John de Montaldt. By 1255, she was marriageable and without
the firm data one could argue her father was gifting in anticipation of a
marriage.
Pat
----------
From: WJhonson@aol.com
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Eudes la Zouche, senior and junior: a conjecture
Date: Thu, 1, 2006, 11:08 PM
In a message dated 6/1/06 7:43:42 PM Pacific Daylight Time, pajunkin@cox.net
writes:
Based on the record that she was married to John Montaldt by 1255 per her
father's gift (refer to post-Cal. Misc. Inq)..so at least 15, say, by that
date and possibly more, born 1240 or before. Her brother, George was born in
1251. Even if we use the 1240 date, Milicent had her heir, William, at
37.......
I'm not sure it's safe to assume that she was of a certain age when she
married. There are other examples of females being married while quite young.
Will
-
Gjest
Re: Prince Charles' ancestor Sir Thomas Harris
WJhonson@aol.com schrieb:
Ah, I see; I had initially misread the original post, the persons who
are its subject being unknown to me, and confused the roles of Richard
Hall and Walter Savage. Given that the trustees are the groom's mother
and two brothers, your question is a valid one, but I couldn't say more
than that, sorry. It is curious that Joyce Hall (I am guessing that is
Elizabeth Savage's mother) is also named in the settlement.
MA-R
In a message dated 6/2/2006 12:19:49 PM Pacific Standard Time,
WJhonson@aol.com writes:
Richard Hall, ofIdlecote, co. Warwick, gent. Marriage settlement of
said Richard and Joyce Hall, and also of Walter Savage, one of the sons
of Anne Daston, widow, wife of Anthony Daston, esquire, deceased, and
formerly the wife of Francis Savage, esquire, also deceased - and
Elizabeth Savage, now wife of the said Walter Savage and one of the
daughters and heiress apparent of the said Richard Hall; Conveyance by
Richard Hall to Anne Daston, William Savage, esquire, and Anthony
Savage, gent., two of the sons of said Anne, and brothers of the said
Walter, of a farm in Swarforde, co. Oxon, called Lyons Place,
The groom didn't convey property.
The father of the bride did. Richard Hall, the father of the bride conveyed
property to a group of people, none of which was the groom Walter Savage.
So Walter was under-age ?
Ah, I see; I had initially misread the original post, the persons who
are its subject being unknown to me, and confused the roles of Richard
Hall and Walter Savage. Given that the trustees are the groom's mother
and two brothers, your question is a valid one, but I couldn't say more
than that, sorry. It is curious that Joyce Hall (I am guessing that is
Elizabeth Savage's mother) is also named in the settlement.
MA-R
-
Roger LeBlanc
Re: Brittany was Re: William de Mohun's (d Oct 1193) ancesto
I was also not sure who exactly was being discussed in this thread, but
thanks to John's post I have figured out that I have a connection at
this point-
Richmont. Among his children, was there not as well a daughter Constance
who married Alain III Vicomte de Rohan? I had not explored his ancestry,
so I am glad to see this placement.
Roger LeBlanc
thanks to John's post I have figured out that I have a connection at
this point-
1.1 Alan 'the Black' of Richmond
----------------------------------------
Death: 15 Sep 1146[3]
Occ: Lord of the 'Honour of Richmond' - 1146[3]
2nd son; succeeded to the honour of Richmond
Given lands of de Dunstanville in Cornwall by King Stephen,
1140 - assumed title of Earl of Cornwall.
Fought for Stephen at Battle of Lincoln, 2 Feb 1141 (defeated);
captured by Ranulf of Chester, paroled before Christmas 1141[2]
lst husband of Bertha of Brittany[4],[2]
Held to be first Earl of Richmond (CP X:788)[2]
Spouse: Bertha of Brittany
Death: bef 1167[2],[4]
Father: Conan III of Brittany (-1148)
Mother: Maud of England
Children: Conan IV (-1171)
Brian (-<1171)
I know him in my notes as Alain II le Noir de Penthievre, 1st Comte de
Richmont. Among his children, was there not as well a daughter Constance
who married Alain III Vicomte de Rohan? I had not explored his ancestry,
so I am glad to see this placement.
Roger LeBlanc
-
Gjest
Re: Powys Fadog & Arderne Ancestry of Isabell (Radclyffe) Ha
_RootsWeb: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L Re: Powys Fadog & Arderne Ancestry of Isabell
(Radclyffe) Harrington (d. 1518)_
(http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GE ... 1149234388)
Becky, Gordon, Hap, John, Tim & Yvonne~
Thanks very much for your comments and additions.
Also, Tim~
I believe it was Peter Leycester (1614-1678) who was refused access to the
Legh muniments. Ormerod faithfully transcribed many sections of his
multi-volumed Chester series directly from Leycester's Historical
Antiquities...(London, 1672). And Leycester wrote in vol. 2, part IV, p. 301 (sub
Over-Knotsford): "Here fhould follow the Defcent of Legh of Booths: But becaufe I was
denied the Perufal of the Evidences, by Robert Venables Efquire, younger Son of
Peter Venables of Kinderton Efquire, who hath married the Widow of John Legh
late of Booths deceafed, I muft omit the fame; and therefore let Pofterity
blame him for it, and not me."
Thanks also to those of you who caught my slip in calling John Legh's
daughter Elizabeth and not Matilda (Maud). That was a clumsy mistake in my former
post as I clearly have her listed in my notes as Matilda (Maud). Besides the
pedigree in Ormerod's vol. I, pp. 382-383 (sub Legh of Knutsford Booths) I
found support for her marriage to Richard Radclyffe and her grandmother Legh's
identity as Matilda, daughter of John de Arderne, in "Pedigrees From the
Plea Rolls," The Genealogist, n.s., vol. 12, p. 108. From Chester Plea Roll No.
48, 10-11 Edw. III m. 24, Richard, son of John de Radecliff, and his wife
Matilda sued her step-grandmother Isabella, formerly wife of John de Legh
Chivaler, for land in Modberlegh which John de Ardene gave to John de Legh for
life with remainder to John, son of John de Legh, and his wife Matilda, daughter
of the same John de Ardene. The plea roll clearly shows Richard Radclyffe's
wife Matilda to be the daughter of John, son of John de Legh and Matilda de
Ardene.
I omitted detailing the Radclyffes of Ordsall further in my former post for
brevity's sake. I have the VCH Lancaster series in my home library so I have
that to fall back on, but was hoping someone might have access to the IPMs
of these individuals.
If anyone is interested Isabell (Radclyffe) Harrington was a legatee in the
14 Sept. 1459 will of her uncle Thomas Haryngton, miles, who provided her
with a dowery: "Item lego Isabellae filiae Alexandri Radcliff et Agnetis
sororis meae xl. marcas ultra xl. libras quas Alexander Radcliff michi debet, ad
maritagium predictae Isabellae, si ad voluntatem matris suae fuerit maritata."
(See Testamenta Eboracensia, Part II, pp. 249-252.)
Sources used for continuing the Powys Fadog lineage were Michael Powell
Siddons's The Development of Welsh Heraldry (Aberystwyth, 1991), vol. I, pp.
293-294, as well as large portions of J.Y.W. Lloyd's The History of the Princes,
the Lords Marcher, and the Ancient Nobility of Powys Fadog... (London, 1881),
vol. I.
I am pleased no one found any serious breaches in this lineage so far. I
look forward to any further contributions, comments, or corrections on this
line.
Kind Regards,
Todd Whitesides
(Radclyffe) Harrington (d. 1518)_
(http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GE ... 1149234388)
Becky, Gordon, Hap, John, Tim & Yvonne~
Thanks very much for your comments and additions.
Also, Tim~
I believe it was Peter Leycester (1614-1678) who was refused access to the
Legh muniments. Ormerod faithfully transcribed many sections of his
multi-volumed Chester series directly from Leycester's Historical
Antiquities...(London, 1672). And Leycester wrote in vol. 2, part IV, p. 301 (sub
Over-Knotsford): "Here fhould follow the Defcent of Legh of Booths: But becaufe I was
denied the Perufal of the Evidences, by Robert Venables Efquire, younger Son of
Peter Venables of Kinderton Efquire, who hath married the Widow of John Legh
late of Booths deceafed, I muft omit the fame; and therefore let Pofterity
blame him for it, and not me."
Thanks also to those of you who caught my slip in calling John Legh's
daughter Elizabeth and not Matilda (Maud). That was a clumsy mistake in my former
post as I clearly have her listed in my notes as Matilda (Maud). Besides the
pedigree in Ormerod's vol. I, pp. 382-383 (sub Legh of Knutsford Booths) I
found support for her marriage to Richard Radclyffe and her grandmother Legh's
identity as Matilda, daughter of John de Arderne, in "Pedigrees From the
Plea Rolls," The Genealogist, n.s., vol. 12, p. 108. From Chester Plea Roll No.
48, 10-11 Edw. III m. 24, Richard, son of John de Radecliff, and his wife
Matilda sued her step-grandmother Isabella, formerly wife of John de Legh
Chivaler, for land in Modberlegh which John de Ardene gave to John de Legh for
life with remainder to John, son of John de Legh, and his wife Matilda, daughter
of the same John de Ardene. The plea roll clearly shows Richard Radclyffe's
wife Matilda to be the daughter of John, son of John de Legh and Matilda de
Ardene.
I omitted detailing the Radclyffes of Ordsall further in my former post for
brevity's sake. I have the VCH Lancaster series in my home library so I have
that to fall back on, but was hoping someone might have access to the IPMs
of these individuals.
If anyone is interested Isabell (Radclyffe) Harrington was a legatee in the
14 Sept. 1459 will of her uncle Thomas Haryngton, miles, who provided her
with a dowery: "Item lego Isabellae filiae Alexandri Radcliff et Agnetis
sororis meae xl. marcas ultra xl. libras quas Alexander Radcliff michi debet, ad
maritagium predictae Isabellae, si ad voluntatem matris suae fuerit maritata."
(See Testamenta Eboracensia, Part II, pp. 249-252.)
Sources used for continuing the Powys Fadog lineage were Michael Powell
Siddons's The Development of Welsh Heraldry (Aberystwyth, 1991), vol. I, pp.
293-294, as well as large portions of J.Y.W. Lloyd's The History of the Princes,
the Lords Marcher, and the Ancient Nobility of Powys Fadog... (London, 1881),
vol. I.
I am pleased no one found any serious breaches in this lineage so far. I
look forward to any further contributions, comments, or corrections on this
line.
Kind Regards,
Todd Whitesides
-
CE Wood
Re: Brittany was Re: William de Mohun's (d Oct 1193) ancesto
CP X:780 lists Theophania, wife of Rabel de Tancarville, as a daughter
of Stephen and Hawise.
CE Wood
"Gordon and Jane Kirkemo" wrote:
of Stephen and Hawise.
CE Wood
"Gordon and Jane Kirkemo" wrote:
John,
I was comparing your information with what I have on file, and I found a
discrepancy regarding the children of Stephen of Richmond. I cite the
following from DD (page 729) under the heading of "de Tancarville, Rabel":
"Son of William de Tancarville (d.1129) and Matilda of Arques. Held his
father's office of Chamberlain in Normandy. Married first Theophania,
daughter of Stephen of Richmond, by whom he had issue William, his
successor, and Oliva, wife of William Malet of Graville, and secondly Agnes
(Fees, p.1044,for 1242/43, Lincolnshire: 'set est de honore Britannie et
data fuit antiquitus in maritagio cum Theophania filia comitis Stephani, et
iterum data fuit in maritagio cum Oliva sorore Willelmi camerarii de
Tancarvilla'). He died in 1140.
This seems to suggest an additional daughter for Stephen, although the
mother is not named. I hope this is of interest.
Sincerely,
Gordon Kirkemo
-----Original Message-----
From: Therav3@aol.com [mailto:Therav3@aol.com]
Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 9:09 AM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Brittany was Re: William de Mohun's (d Oct 1193) ancestors
Saturday, 3 June, 2006
Dear Leo, et al.,
Following for your review is what I have for Stephen, 'count
of Brittany' (& c.) and his immediate issue. This is not
complete, as I note I have included nothing to date for his
son Henri, for example.
Besides the matter of Stephen's daughter Maud, wife of Walter
de Gant, there is a correction pointed out some time ago re:
Stephen's daughter Aginore (also called Aginore de Penthievre).
She was identified as the wife of Alan de Dinan, not Oliver by
Todd Farmerie (see Todd, Mike Talbot et al., <Vitri>, SGM,
June 24, 1998).
Cheers,
John
1 Stephen of Richmond
- --------------------------------------
Death: 21 Apr 1135[1]
Burial: quire of St. Mary's, York
Occ: Lord of Richmond
Father: Eudo of Brittany (-1079)
Mother: NN
lord of the honour of Richmond (succeeded brother Alan by 1098)[1]
Succeeded to Breton lands of Geoffrey Boterel in 1093 or 1098, and
to honour of Richmond on death of brother Alan in 1093.
Benefactor of abbey of St. Mary, York (1125-1135)
founded Augustinian abbey of Ste. Croix and Guingamp, and Cistercian
abbey of Begard in 1130[2]
also styled 'Stephen, count of Brittany' [CP VIII:672][2]
Spouse: Hawisa[1]
Death: aft 1134[2]
Children: Alan 'the Black' (-1146)
Maud
Aginore
Olive (->1162)
1.1 Alan 'the Black' of Richmond
- --------------------------------------
Death: 15 Sep 1146[3]
Occ: Lord of the 'Honour of Richmond' - 1146[3]
2nd son; succeeded to the honour of Richmond
Given lands of de Dunstanville in Cornwall by King Stephen,
1140 - assumed title of Earl of Cornwall.
Fought for Stephen at Battle of Lincoln, 2 Feb 1141 (defeated);
captured by Ranulf of Chester, paroled before Christmas 1141[2]
lst husband of Bertha of Brittany[4],[2]
Held to be first Earl of Richmond (CP X:788)[2]
Spouse: Bertha of Brittany
Death: bef 1167[2],[4]
Father: Conan III of Brittany (-1148)
Mother: Maud of England
Children: Conan IV (-1171)
Brian (-<1171)
1.1.1 Conan IV of Brittany
- --------------------------------------
Death: 20 Feb 1171, probably Guingamp, Brittany[3],[4]
Occ: Duke of Brittany 1156-1166 and Earl of Richmond
Lord of Richmond, co. York.
Crossed to Brittany Sept 1156, captured Rennes, defeated and
captured his stepfather Eudon of Porhoet - recognized as Duke
of Brittany[2]
In England at the Council of Clarendon, Jan 1164 (ex. charter
at Wilton for Le Mont St. Michel)[2]
Conan, duke of Brittany and earl of Richmond, restored to Torfin fitz
Robert (de Manfield) the forfeited Manfield fee of 2 knights, held
of the honour of Richmond, ca. 1159-1171
' by Hermer his great-grandfather [attavus] and Godreda [Gutherith],
Hermer's daughter. ' [EYF 57, cites EYC V: 55 and the charter of
Duke Conan, EYC IV, no. 55[5]]
~ Note: given that Duke Conan was dispossessed of his honour of
Richmond by Henry II ca. 1166, this charter should be dated
ca. 1159 - 1166.
_______________________
Deposed from his duchy by Henry II: following his return to the
continent in 1166 and the capture of the castle of Fougeres
(July 1166), Henry II
'had decided on a more drastic solution to the problem of
Brittany and the insecurity of the marchlands. He seems to
have held Duke Conan responsible for failing to keep order,
and indeed the intervention of the constable of Normandy in
August 1164 suggests that Conan was either unwilling to
discipline his vassals or incapable of subduing them. Henry
deposed him: his heiress, the infant Constance, was
betrothed to Henry's seven-year-old son Geoffrey, and
Conan retired to his ancestral county of Guingamp.'[4]
1st husband of Margaret of Huntingdon
Spouse: Margaret of Huntingdon
Birth: abt 1150
Death: 1201[2]
Father: Henry of Scotland, Earl of Northumberland (~1115-1152)
Mother: Ada de Warenne (ca1120-1178)
Marr: 1160[2]
Children: Constance (ca1162-1201), Duchess of Brittany
1.1.2 Brian fitz Alan
- --------------------------------------
Death: bef 1171[5]
held 5 knights' fees of the Honour of Richmond[5]
cf. Clay, Early Yorkshire Families, p. 27[5]
Children: Alan fitz Brian (-ca1187), m. Agnes Haget
1.2 Maud of Brittany[2]
- --------------------------------------
had the church and lands of St. Andrew in Swaledale as her
maritagium:
'Matildis filia consulis Stephani Brittaniae, uxor Walteri de
Gaunt', gave the church of St. Andrew in Swaledale to
Bridlington priory, from her maritagium, with the consent
of her lord (husband) Walter [Mon. Angl. VI(1):287, Num. IX[6]]
' Matilda, dau. Stephen, count of Brittany ' [ EYC II:433[7]]
Spouse: Walter de Gant
Death: 1139[2],[8]
Father: Gilbert de Gant (-ca1095)
Mother: Alice de Montfort
Children: Gilbert (ca1120-1156)
Alice
NN
Robert (-1191)
1.2.1 Gilbert de Gant
- --------------------------------------
Birth: ca 1120[2]
Death: 1156, d.s.p.m.[2]
Occ: Earl of Lincoln
created Earl of Lincoln ca. 1147; d.s.p.m.[2]
his grant to the monks of Rufford confirmed by Sir Gilbert de Gant,
ca. 1200-1218:
' Confirmation of Grant Gilbert de Gant to Monks of Rufford all
lands in Rufford and lands which Gilbert Count of Lincoln gave
them in Eakring and 30 acres on banks of Trent at Kelham, lands
in Cracela, 2 bovates in Wilgebi which Ralph Selvanus held, land
in Barton ' - A2A, Nottinghamshire Archives: Savile of Rufford:
Deeds and Estate Papers [DD/SR/206 - DD/SR/215], TITLE DEEDS:
Yorkshire, Nottinghamshire, etc: Charters: Rufford,
ref. DD/SR/208/96[9]
Spouse: Rohese de Clare
Death: aft 1156[2]
Father: Richard de Clare (-1136)
Mother: Adeliza of Chester
Children: Alice (-1185), m. Simon III de St. Liz
1.2.2 Alice de Gant
- --------------------------------------
manor of Empingham given as her marriage portion in marrying Roger
de Mowbray-cf. CP Vol X (Mowbray), p. 371n[2]
' Aaliz de Gant ', gave lands at 'Litlehage' to Fountains Abbey
[Mon.Angl. V:309, Num. LXXI[6] - confirmation by her son Nigel
de Mowbray]
m. 1stly Ilbert de Lacy,
2ndly Roger de Mowbray[2]
Spouse: Roger de Mowbray
Death: 1188, Palestine (or en route to England)[2]
Father: Nigel d'Aubigny (-ca1129)
Mother: Gundreda de Gournay
Children: Nigel de Mowbray, of Melton Mowbray (-1191)
Robert de Mowbray
NN, a nun at Abbaye des Dames, Caen
1.2.3 NN de Gant[2]
- --------------------------------------
sister of Gilbert de Gand, Earl of Lincoln (DP 326)[10]
see CP XII:437, sub _Welles_[2]
Spouse: William fitz Walter, of Wells, co. Lincs.
Death: bef 1198[2]
Father: Walter fitz Ragemer
Children: Robert fitz William, of Welle (-<1207)
Isabel, m. Robert fitz Hugh de Tateshal
1.2.4a Robert de Gant*
- --------------------------------------
Death: 1191[8]
2nd husband
Charter, undated [est. c 1155 - 1191]:
' Charter of Robert de Gant reciting that when his brother Earl
Gilbert founded the abbey of Rufford he gave it all his domain
as is recited in the monks' charters, not excepting the church
of Aicringe which is situated in that domain and attesting that
this church belongs to the monks ' - A2A, Nottinghamshire
Archives: Savile of Rufford: Deeds and Estate Papers
[DD/SR/13 - DD/SR/205], DD/SR/102/35[9]
Spouse: Alice Pagnell
Children: Avice, m. Robert fitz Robert ('de Ghent')
1.2.4b Robert de Gant* (See above)
- --------------------------------------
Spouse: Gunnor[2]
Children: Sir Gilbert de Gant, of Folkingham (ca1180-<1241)
Stephen
1.3 Aginore of Richmond[11]
- --------------------------------------
also called Aginore de Penthievre[11] probably 'Aenor', given
granddaughter 'Eleanor' and her name.
identification as wife of Alan de Dinan, not Oliver by Todd A.
Farmerie (citing CP; versus identification as per K.S.B.
Keats-Rohan, Domesday Descendants p. 434[12])[11]
Spouse: Alan de Dinan[2]
Death: bef 1166[13]
Father: Geoffroi II de Dinan (->1122)
Mother: Orieldis
Children: Emma (-1208)
Roland (-<1190)
1.3.1 Emma de Dinan[2]
- --------------------------------------
Death: 18 Dec 1208[11]
Spouse: Robert III de Vitre[2]
Death: ca 1184[11]
Father: Robert II de Vitre (-ca1161)
Mother: Emma de la Guerche
Children: Andre de Vitre
Eleanor, m. 1) William, Earl of 'Salisbury' [Wiltshire]
Alan de Dinan, of Burton, Northants.
1.3.2 Roland de Dinan
- --------------------------------------
Death: bef 1190, d.s.p.[13],[12]
of Burton, co. Northants.
held lands in Hartland, Devon (lost due to his support of Breton
rebellions against Henry II of England);
justiciar in Brittany for Geoffrey, duke of Brittany
(Henry II's son) [DD 434][12]
tenant of Burton in 1166 and 1173[13]
cf. Chope p. 421[14]
1.4a Olive of Richmond*
- --------------------------------------
Death: aft 1162[12]
received manor of Long Bennington, co. Lincoln (maritagium ?) from
her father[3]
benefactor of the abbey of Lucerne together with then-husband
William de St. John and his brother Robert, 1162 (DD 691)[12]
she m. lstly Henry de Fougeres,
2ndly William de St. John[12]
Spouse: Henri de Fougeres [1st husband]
Death: 1154[3]
Father: Raoul de Fougeres (-1124)
Mother: Avice de Bienfaite
Children: Raoul II (-1194)
Clemence
1.4a.1 Raoul II de Fougeres
- --------------------------------------
Death: 1194[3]
Occ: seigneur de Fougeres
seigneur de Fougeres
had guardianship of the seigneurie of Dol and the heiress
[evidently Iseulde, daughter of John], at bequest of John
of Dol 1162 (the castle of Dol taken by Henry II of England
in 1162).[4][cf DD 437, cites Robert de Torigny, 214[12]]
He therefore became an early opponent of Henry II:
'While Henry was in England [Jan 1163 - 1166] a league had
been formed among the border barons of Brittany and Maine, led
by Ralph de Fougeres, to resist his lordship.'[4]
castle of Fougeres razed by Henry's forces following its
capture, July 1166[4]
supporter of the Young King in his rebellion against Henry
II, 1173 - captured in 1174, imprisoned until ca 1177
(restored to his lands)[4]
made seneschal of Brittany by Duke Geoffrey, ca 1181[4]
deserted Henry II and joined the side of Philip and
Richard - forfeited for same by Richard, 1189[15]
Spouse: Jeanne de Dol[3]
Father: Geldouin de Dol (-1137)
Mother: Noga de Tinteniac
Children: Guillaume de Fougeres (-1187), m. Agatha de Humez
Margaret, m. Waleran de Meulan
1.4a.2 Clemence de Fougeres
- --------------------------------------
'daughter of Henry de Fougeres' [DD 597[12]]
Spouse: Robert 'II' de Montfort
Death: 1178[12]
Father: Hugh de Montfort
Mother: Adeline de Beaumont
Children: Hugh
Robert
Raoul
William
Henry
Aline
1.4b Olive of Richmond* (See above)
- --------------------------------------
Spouse: William de St. John [2nd husband]
Death: bef 1195, d.s.p.[12]
Father: Roger de St. John (-ca1130)
Mother: Cecily de la Haie
1. David C. Douglas, "William the Conqueror," University of
California Press (English Monarch Series), 1964.
2. G. E. Cokayne, "The Complete Peerage," 1910 - [microprint,
1982 (Alan Sutton) ], The Complete Peerage of England Scotland
Ireland Great Britain and the United Kingdom.
3. Frederick L. Weis (add/corr, Walter L Sheppard Jr.), "Ancestral
Roots of Certain American Colonists," Baltimore: Genealogical
Pub. Co.
4. W. L. Warren, "Henry II," University of California Press, 1973,
[English Monarchs Series].
5. Sir Charles Clay, ed., "Early Yorkshire Families," The Yorkshire
Archaeological Society, Record Series), 1973, Vol. CXXXV.
6. Sir William Dugdale, "Monasticon Anglicanum," London: Harding &
Lepard; and Longman Rees... Green, 1830, Vol. VI, Pt. 1 - Austin
Abbey of Wigmore, in Herefordshire, pp. 348-356 [Fundationis et
Fundatorum Historia], Vol. VI, Pt. 2 - Priory of Bullington,
co. Lincs., pp. 951-954, URL
http://monasticmatrix.usc.edu/bibliogra ... ail&id=265
9
7. William Farrer, Hon.D.Litt., Editor, "Early Yorkshire Charters,"
Ballantyne, Hanson & Co., Edinburgh, 1915-1916, Vol. II (1915)
Vol. III (1916), Vol. XII [the family of Constable of
Flamborough], courtesy Rosie Bevan, Vol. V [Manfield fee,
pp. 53-58 ], courtesy Rosie Bevan, <Re: Avice de Tanfield,
wife of Robert Marmion>, SGM, 26 Feb 2002.
8. I. J. Sanders, "English Baronies: A Study of Their Origin and
Descent, 1086-1327," Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1960.
9. "Access to Archives," http://www.a2a.pro.gov.uk/
10. Katherine S. B. Keats-Rohan, "Domesday People," The Boydell Press,
1999, Vol. I: A Prosopography of Persons Occurring in English
Documents 1066-1166, cites Robert de Torigni, Interpolations to
Gesta Normannorum Ducum of Guillaume of Jumieges, (ed. van Houts,
ii, 270) and identification of Gilbert fitzRichard as uncle of
Meen, seigneur de Fougeres (Rouleau Mortuaire du B. Vital abbe
de Savigni, edition phototypique par L. Delisle Paris (1909),
titre no. 182).
11. Mike Talbot, "Vitri," June 24, 1998, GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
additional commentary by Todd A. Farmerie (taf2@po.cwru.edu).
12. K. S. B. Keats-Rohan, "Domesday Descendants," The Boydell Press,
Woodbridge, 2002, cited by Rosie Bevan, 'Re: de Stuteville'
Jul 2, 2002, p. 723 (Osmund de Stuteville), full title: Domesday
Descendants: A Prosopography of Persons, Occurring in English
Documents 1066-1166: Pipe Rolls to Cartae Baronum.
13. Rosie Bevan, "Re: Eleanor de Vitre," August 15, 2002, paper copy:
library of John P. Ravilious, citations from Rosie Bevan :
rbevan@paradise.net.nz, citation from Victoria County History
of Northants., vol. 3, p. 181 [which cites Red Book of Exchequer,
Rolls series, 331-2; Great Roll of the Pipe (Pipe Roll Soc.), xi,
119; xii, 54; xxi, p.53].
14. "R. Pearse Chope," The Early History of the Manor of Hartland,
Report and Transactions of the Devonshire Association for the
Advancement of Science, Literature, and Art, Vol. XXXIV [Vol.
IV, 2nd series], Plymouth: W. Brendon and Son, 1902, pp. 418-449.
15. "Richard I," John Gillingham, New Haven: Yale University Press,
1999, 129, 152 (de Camville), Yale English Monarchs series.
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