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Gjest

Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England

Legg inn av Gjest » 27 mai 2006 10:53:02

Will, I have the following offspring for King Eadbald of Kent (570-640) and
Emma of Austrasia:

King Eormenred of Kent
Spouse: Oslava
Children:
Ethelred of Kent
Ethelbert of Kent
Ermenburga of Kent (married Merewald)

Abbess/Saint Eanswyth of Folkestone

King Earconbert/Erkinbert of Kent (d. 664)
Spouse: Sexburga of East Anglia (dau of King Anna & Saewara)
Children:
King Egbert I of Kent (d. 673)
King Hlothere of Kent (d. 685)
Princess Earcongota
Princess Eormengild (married King Wulfhere of Mercia)
_______________________________

King Egbert I of Kent (d. 673)
Spouse:
Children:
King Eadric of Kent (d. 687)
King Wihtred of Kent (d. 725)

_______________________________

King Wihtred of Kent (d. 725)
Spouse: Aethelburga
Children:
Princess Aethelburga of Wessex (675-718)

_______________________________

Princess Aethelburga
Spouse: Inglid of Wessex, son of Cenred
Children:
Eoppa of Wessex (706-758)
King Aethelheard of Wessex

Etc., etc.

I hope this information is helpful.

Mardi

Gjest

Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England

Legg inn av Gjest » 27 mai 2006 21:55:19

Dear Will, Ford, David and Mardi,
If Wihtred, King of
Kent`s daughter Aethelburga is known to be wife of the Aetheling Ingild of Wessex
and she is mother of the Aetheling Eoppa, grandmother of the Aetheling Eafa and
great grandmother of Ealhmund, sub King of Kent, it strikes me as a bit
unlikely that Ealhmund gained his possession in Kent through marriage to his Great
Grandmother`s elder half brother`s daughter (i-e by marrying his
grandfather`s own cousin. So apparently one of these (probably the conjectural daughter
theory) in incorrect.
Sincerely
James
W Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA
PS Isn`t there a theory that Eoppa and Eafa are the same person ?

Gjest

Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England

Legg inn av Gjest » 27 mai 2006 22:01:19

Dear Ford, David, Leo, Mardi , Will and others,
Another
example of a matronymic is Duncan mac Bethoc nighean Malcolm. The Scots King
also known as Duncan mac Crinan.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

Ginny Wagner

William Marshall

Legg inn av Ginny Wagner » 27 mai 2006 22:21:02

Here is an interesting essay about William Marshall with
some great pictures. The bibliography is excellent,
although statements in the essay aren't specifically
footnoted.

http://www.castlewales.com/mar_chld.html


Ginny
ginnywagner@austin.rr.com

Gjest

Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England

Legg inn av Gjest » 27 mai 2006 23:36:02

Dear David and others,
According to David Williamson`s " Kings and
Queens of Britain " Appendix B Table 2 (pg 213) Hengist, King of Kent abt
455-488 was father of Aesc, King of Kent abt 488- 512 and a daugher married to
Vortigern, King of the Britons. Aesc had Octa , King of Kent abt 512-abt
542, Octa had Eormenric , King of Kent abt 540-abt 560, Eormenric was the
father of Aethelbert I, King of Kent abt 560-616 who married twice 1st Bertha,
daughter of Charibert I, King of Paris, 2nd unknown woman and Ricula, wife of
Sledda, King of Essex
Aethelbert I, King of Kent was the father of Eadbald,
King of Kent 616- 640 who married 1st his father`s widow and 2nd Emma, daughter
of Theodebert II, King of Austrasia and Ethelburga d 647, wife of Eadwine, King
of Northumbria
Eadbald, King of Kent and his first wife had Mildred
(Milmade), Abbess of Lyninge, by Emma He had the subking Eormenred who by wife
Olava had Eormenburga, wife of Merewald, and the Aethelings Ethelbert and
Ethelred, Eadbald had further Eorconbert, King of Kent 640-664 who married
Seaxburga, daughter of Anna, King of East Anglica and a daughter St Eanwythe,
Abbess of Folkestone.
see prior posts for issue from Eorconbert, King of Kent.
According to The Encyopedia of World History Peter Stearns editor (2001) (p
170) Table of Merovingian Kings
1Clovis I 488-511 married St Clothild, daughter of
King Gondebaud of Burgundy
2 Clotaire I 511- 561, King of Soissons, later King
of the Franks m Ingund
3 Sigebert I 561- 575, King of Austrasia
assassinated m Brunhilda, daughter of Athanagild, King of the Visigoths by his wife
Goiswintha
4 Childebert II 575-595, King of Austrasia, King of
Burgundy as well from 593 married Faileuba
5 Theodebert II 595-612 King of Austrasia deposed
and murdeed m Bilchild
6 Emma m Eadbald, King of Kent (note: Eadbald`s
wife is not identified as a daughter of Theodebert II of Austrasia at some sites
on the web)
3 Charibert I m Ingoberg
4 Adelberg (also called Bertha) m Ethelbert I, King
of Kent
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

Gjest

Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England

Legg inn av Gjest » 27 mai 2006 23:38:59

A patronymic always refers to the father, but a matronymic refers to
the mother.

W David Samuelsen

Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England

Legg inn av W David Samuelsen » 27 mai 2006 23:56:02

<http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2006-05/1148672763>

Isn't Canute who ascended to English throne also the same person who
ruled Denmark - known as Canute the Great, on death of Sweyn Forkbeard
of Denmark on 30 Nov 1016 and died 12 Nov 1035, buried in Winchester
Cathedral, Winchester England. He ascended to Danish throne 1018 or 1019
on death of his older brother Harold II.

ruled English, Denmark and Norway as king and was overlord of Schleswig
and Pomerania

had children: Harold, Hardacanute, Sweyn and Cunigunde (Gunhilda).
Gunhilda married Henry, son of Konrad II, Emperor of Holy Roman Empire

Hardacanute suceeded as King of Denmark, as Canute III
Harold I succeeded as King of England as Harold I Harefoot. Never
married and no descendants, succeeded by Hardacanute as Canute the
Hardy, who was succeeded by his half brother Edward the Confessor.
Magnus the Noble succeeded as King of Norway

Not much is known about Sweyn after ouster by Magnus the Great of Norway.

David Samuelsen

Ford Mommaerts-Browne

Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England

Legg inn av Ford Mommaerts-Browne » 28 mai 2006 00:08:02

----- Original Message -----
From: <Jwc1870@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2006 3:55 PM
Subject: Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England


| Dear Will, Ford, David and Mardi,
| If Wihtred, King of Kent`s daughter
| Aethelburga is known to be wife of the Aetheling Ingild of | Wessex and she is mother of the Aetheling Eoppa,
| grandmother of the Aetheling Eafa and
| great-grandmother of Ealhmund, sub King of Kent,
| it strikes me as a bit unlikely that Ealhmund gained his possession in Kent through marriage to his Great-
| Grandmother`s elder half-brother`s daughter, (i-e by marrying his
| grandfather`s own cousin. So apparently one of these (probably the conjectural daughter
| theory) in incorrect.
|
| Sincerely,
| James
| W Cummings
|
| Dixmont, Maine USA



Which daughter are you taking as conjectural?

I don't know whence Mardi got her suggestion, but I suspect that is may be from the ¶ under Fig. 2, 'Rulers of Kent', on p. 409, of my aforementioned article in _Foundations_, I:6. I did not name her; and I suggested that she married Eoppa, Ingilding. I opposed this to Dave Kelley's suggestion of a marriage of Æþelbeorht II's daughter to Eahlmund Eaffing. I touched on the supposition that Sigebeorht, King of Wessex, 756-757, was the brother of Sigeread, King of Kent, 759-763; (both being sons of Eoppa Ingilding, and brothers of Eaffa Eopping). Thus this would, I pointed out, explain the apparent earlier link 'twixt Kent & Wessex than would be the case with the later union.
Ingild 'Conrading', I should suggest, wed an East Saxon princess, probably daughter of K. Sæbbi, thus explaing the East Saxon names of the royal brothers. This, I suggest, is only one way in which the East Saxon dynasty, the Æscwingas, continued beyond the amalgam of their kingdom into the greater Anglo-Saxon polity. For others, one could see the suggestions in my article, or go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Anglo-Sax ... logy/files.


| PS Isn`t there a theory that Eoppa and Eafa are the same person ?
|

I have seen the theory. I don't accept it - it wouldn't fit well chronologically, and Eoppa and Eaffa are not similar enough to be a duplication. BUT I have an open mind on't.

Ford

'Don't judge those who try, and fail. Judge only those who fail to try.'

'Life may not be the party we hoped for... but while we are here we might as well dance !'

'The end is what the means have made it.'
--John Morley, Critical Miscellanies

Gjest

Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England

Legg inn av Gjest » 28 mai 2006 01:26:02

In a message dated 5/26/2006 11:07:29 PM Pacific Standard Time,
FordMommaerts@Cox.net writes:

Suggest checking http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Anglo-Sax ... ogy/files/.
These are primarily what I have been able to piece together. I try to
change them if anything new is introduced, or comes to light. But, if no-one
shares, nothing gets changed, unless I stumble on it. The group has been kind
of quiet, lately; but maybe something will come from this discussion.
Personally, I've had other life-issues this past fortnight, and haven't had time to
check through all of the posts on this thread.
Any suggestions, changes or updates to the charts are welcome. That's why I
drew and posted them.
Ford


Yahoo Groups is a bad place to put files that you want a lot of comments on.
They require you to join the group and then they are an awfully slow web
service.

Would you consider putting your files on someplace like rootsweb ?

I find Yahoo Groups to be non-intuitive to navigate. It always takes me
several attempts just to find how you're supposed to join and once you join how
you're supposed to contribute or view what's there.

Will

Merilyn Pedrick

Re: William Marshall

Legg inn av Merilyn Pedrick » 28 mai 2006 02:25:02

Dear Ginny
Thanks for that - it's fascinating, and the photos bring it all to life.
Merilyn Pedrick

-------Original Message-------

From: Ginny Wagner
Date: 05/28/06 05:48:57
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: William Marshall

Here is an interesting essay about William Marshall with
some great pictures. The bibliography is excellent,
although statements in the essay aren't specifically
footnoted.

http://www.castlewales.com/mar_chld.html


Ginny
ginnywagner@austin.rr.com

Stewart Baldwin

Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England

Legg inn av Stewart Baldwin » 28 mai 2006 04:06:42

On Sat, 27 May 2006 22:06:39 +0000 (UTC), FordMommaerts@Cox.net ("Ford
Mommaerts-Browne") wrote:


I don't know whence Mardi got her suggestion, but
I suspect that is may be from the ¶ under Fig. 2,
'Rulers of Kent', on p. 409, of my aforementioned
article in _Foundations_, I:6. I did not name her;
and I suggested that she married Eoppa, Ingilding.
I opposed this to Dave Kelley's suggestion of a
marriage of Æþelbeorht II's daughter to Eahlmund
Eaffing. I touched on the supposition that
Sigebeorht, King of Wessex, 756-757, was the brother
of Sigeread, King of Kent, 759-763; (both being sons
of Eoppa Ingilding, and brothers of Eaffa Eopping).
Thus this would, I pointed out, explain the apparent
earlier link 'twixt Kent & Wessex than would be the
case with the later union.
Ingild 'Conrading', I should suggest, wed an East
Saxon princess, probably daughter of K. Sæbbi, thus
explaing the East Saxon names of the royal brothers.
This, I suggest, is only one way in which the East
Saxon dynasty, the Æscwingas, continued beyond the
amalgam of their kingdom into the greater Anglo-Saxon
polity. For others, one could see the suggestions in
my article, or go to
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Anglo-Sax ... logy/files.


According to John ["Florence"] of Worcester, king Sigeberht of Wessex
was the son of a certain Sigeric. Sigeberht also had a brother named
Cyneheard [same source]. Since Sigeberht and his father both had
names that also appear among the East Saxon kings, and Cyneheard
appears to be a West Saxon name (the prefix Cyne- being common in that
family), it seems more likely that Sigeberht's father was an East
Saxon, and that his mother was a member of the West Saxon dynasty. I
see no reason to reject the evidence of John of Worcester (who was
using a version of the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle no longer available to
us) and make Sigeberht a son of Eoppa.

Stewart Baldwin

Ford Mommaerts-Browne

Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England

Legg inn av Ford Mommaerts-Browne » 28 mai 2006 04:09:01

----- Original Message -----
From: <paulvheath@gmail.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2006 7:38 PM
Subject: Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England


| A patronymic always refers to the father, but a matronymic refers to
| the mother.

Is there really such a word as 'matronymic'? And I thought that I coined it for this discussion. Ah well, just another burst bubble in the scrub-pail of life. :o(

Gjest

Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England

Legg inn av Gjest » 28 mai 2006 04:26:02

Dear Ford,
I have no idea if the term matronymic existed before You
used it or not, but it certainly makes sense to me. We have Patralineal and
Matralineal so why not matronymic to go with patronymic ?
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

David Teague

Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England

Legg inn av David Teague » 28 mai 2006 04:55:02

Brian Sykes used "matronymic" when discussing the derivation of the surname
Dyson in his book _Adam's Curse_.

David Teague


From: Jwc1870@aol.com
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England
Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 22:23:43 EDT

Dear Ford,
I have no idea if the term matronymic existed before You
used it or not, but it certainly makes sense to me. We have Patralineal and
Matralineal so why not matronymic to go with patronymic ?
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

Ford Mommaerts-Browne

Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England

Legg inn av Ford Mommaerts-Browne » 28 mai 2006 05:02:01

-----Original Message-----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2006 8:24 PM
Subject: Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England


|
| In a message dated 5/26/2006 11:07:29 PM Pacific Standard Time,
| FordMommaerts@Cox.net writes:
|
| Suggest checking http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Anglo-Sax ... ogy/files/.
| These are primarily what I have been able to piece together. I try to
| change them if anything new is introduced, or comes to light. But, if no-one
| shares, nothing gets changed, unless I stumble on it. The group has been kind
| of quiet, lately; but maybe something will come from this discussion.
| Personally, I've had other life-issues this past fortnight, and haven't had time to
| check through all of the posts on this thread.
| Any suggestions, changes or updates to the charts are welcome. That's why I
| drew and posted them.
| Ford
|
|
| Yahoo Groups is a bad place to put files that you want a lot of comments on.
| They require you to join the group and then they are an awfully slow web
| service.
|
| Would you consider putting your files on someplace like rootsweb ?
|
| I find Yahoo Groups to be non-intuitive to navigate. It always takes me
| several attempts just to find how you're supposed to join and once you join how
| you're supposed to contribute or view what's there.
|
| Will

Funny that you say that, Will! I was just writing to Gordon Banks about the various lists which I hosted, owned, moderated, facilitated, coached, whatever. Here is an excerpt:

Byzantine Genealogy had been on MSN, but Yahoo! offers more.
On RootsWeb, I had, also, ASIAN-ROYALTY, and ARAB-AND-MOSLEM - but they were taken away at the same time as GEN-ANCIENT[, when I was having PC and connectivity issues]. Their new owners managed to let them die, w/o [angering] everyone off; so Rootsweb let them keep them. The woman at GEN-ANCIENT for those few months [angered] so many that Joseph Uphoff started http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Ancient_Genealogy; and now that gets all of the Gen-A stuff. Rootsweb isn't too sharp at responsible, (or responsive), management, (or 'managerment', as my employer spells it). IF they would allow gating, they could, at least, resurrect Ancient genealogical studies, and maybe Oriental. They claim that it would violate their privacy policy, even though there is unanimous desire for it among the lists involved. Thus, they thwart the very studies which they claim to promote!

That said, (since you, more or less, raised the issue), I wouldn't have a problem with posting my little 'objets d'art généalogique' anywhere where there would be an interest. BUT: (HUGE WARNUNG follows) they are intended as starting points, to be amended as warranted. I need to redo my Anastasii chart, as is, (due to information shared by Chr. Settipani). I have to go to the library to do this, as I've essentially 'maxxed-out' my RAM, and can't afford to expand it right now. Would Rootsweb be accessible for alterations and updates?

On related comments: I find Yahoo fairly easy to navigate. Certainly more intuitive than Wikicities, Geocities, (also Yahoo!) or FortuneCity, (IIRC, Lycos/AngelFire), and even slightly more so than MSN or SmartGroups.
For joining, I've learned a little trick. When you arrive at the homepage, (e.g: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Rabbi-Rabbi/, just type 'join', after the final slash (/). This works even for groups on other language Yahoo!s, (i.e., on does not need to translate the word 'join' into the respective vernacular).

Ford


'Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there wondering, fearing,
Doubting, dreaming dreams no mortal ever dared to dream before;
But the silence was unbroken, and the stillness gave no token,
And the only word there spoken was the whispered word, "Lenore!"
This I whispered, and an echo murmured back the word, "Lenore!"--
Merely this, and nothing more.'

Paul K Davis

Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England

Legg inn av Paul K Davis » 28 mai 2006 05:27:01

But the problem is, when we see a name of the "son of ..." or "daughter of
...." sort, we frequently cannot tell whether it is a patronymic or a
matronymic. It is usually assumed to be a patronymic because they are much
more common, but then we may discover that what we have been referring to
as a patronymic was really a matronymic.

I have also seen matronymics in medieval Welsh genealogies, not
distinguished from patronymics. In fact, I have seen the same person, in
one genealogy given his or her patronymic, and in another the matronymic.

-- PKD [Paul K Davis, pkd-gm@earthlink.net]


[Original Message]
From: <paulvheath@gmail.com
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Date: 5/27/2006 3:52:12 PM
Subject: Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England

A patronymic always refers to the father, but a matronymic refers to
the mother.

Gjest

Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England

Legg inn av Gjest » 28 mai 2006 06:00:03

In a message dated 5/27/2006 8:01:45 PM Pacific Standard Time,
FordMommaerts@Cox.net writes:

On RootsWeb, I had, also, ASIAN-ROYALTY, and ARAB-AND-MOSLEM - but they were
taken away at the same time as GEN-ANCIENT[, when I was having PC and
connectivity issues]. Their new owners managed to let them die, w/o [angering]
everyone off; so Rootsweb let them keep them. The woman at GEN-ANCIENT for
those few months [angered] so many that Joseph Uphoff started
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Ancient_Genealogy


I'm not talking about message groups however, but only about FTP file
repositories.
That is, each page, is indexed, and viewable seperate from any group or
discussion about it.

Rootsweb allows any person to request space and they give you your own FTP
site. They state "unlimited space", I haven't really pushed it, but so far
I've found no limits to the amount of material I can load to my site. And I've
loaded a few hundred megabytes at least.
Will

Gjest

Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England

Legg inn av Gjest » 28 mai 2006 06:02:02

In a message dated 5/27/2006 8:01:45 PM Pacific Standard Time,
FordMommaerts@Cox.net writes:

Would Rootsweb be accessible for alterations and updates?




I answered this tangentially, but I'll answer it more directly now.
Essentially one of the services that Rootsweb offers is individual FTP space
for anything genealogy related. They give any person requesting space,
their own individual FTP location. So I have a site called
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~wjhonson for example. You just need a FTP program and
you can upload or download your stuff all day long.

Once google runs through it, it will start appearing in the google index.
But even before that you can certainly give people links to your stuff.

Will

Ford Mommaerts-Browne

Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England

Legg inn av Ford Mommaerts-Browne » 28 mai 2006 06:21:01

----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 28, 2006 12:57 AM
Subject: Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England


|
| In a message dated 5/27/2006 8:01:45 PM Pacific Standard Time,
| FordMommaerts@Cox.net writes:
|
| On RootsWeb, I had, also, ASIAN-ROYALTY, and ARAB-AND-MOSLEM - but they were
| taken away at the same time as GEN-ANCIENT[, when I was having PC and
| connectivity issues]. Their new owners managed to let them die, w/o [angering]
| everyone off; so Rootsweb let them keep them. The woman at GEN-ANCIENT for
| those few months [angered] so many that Joseph Uphoff started
| http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Ancient_Genealogy
|
|
| I'm not talking about message groups however, but only about FTP file
| repositories.
| That is, each page, is indexed, and viewable seperate from any group or
| discussion about it.
|
| Rootsweb allows any person to request space and they give you your own FTP
| site. They state "unlimited space", I haven't really pushed it, but so far
| I've found no limits to the amount of material I can load to my site. And I've
| loaded a few hundred megabytes at least.
| Will

Thanks. I'll check into this. You can expect personal correspondence if I have any questions.

davids

Re: Brok line - Mary Countess of Buckingham --> William Bass

Legg inn av davids » 28 mai 2006 15:37:13

"John Higgins" wrote:
The assignment of Mary Basset, wife of William Beaumont of Cole Orton, to
the Blore Bassets is based on an extensive pedigree of most of the Basset
branches in Nichols' Leics, vol. 4. Nichols cites as sources an MS of Sir
William Dugdale as well as an MSS collection of Sampson Erdeswicke.
Although the pedigree is quite extensive, it likely is incomplete (for
example, it does not include the Fledburgh branch at all), and I would
consider the identification of Mary's parents to perhaps be tentative at
this point.

The pedigree in Farnham referenced by "The Beaumonts in History" is not a
full pedigree of the family but simply an outline of the descent of the Cole
Orton branch from the Maureward family. My copy of the pedigree in Farnham
doesn't show any sources for the pedigree, in particular the statement that
William Beaumont mar. Mary, dau. of Thomas Basset of Fledburgh, Notts. I
suspect, however, that this may have come from the visitations of Nottingham
(published as Harleian Society vol. 4) where an unnamed daughter of "Thomas
Bassett of Fledborough" and his wife Margaret Meering is said to have mar.
an unnamed Beaumont of Cole Orton. So, we have another example of one set
of information in Nichols and another, conflicting, set in a visitation
pedigree.

If anyone has better sources on the various Basset branches and their
connections to one another, they would be welcome....

----- Original Message -----
From: "Louise Staley" <caramut@bigpond.com
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2006 1:51 AM
Subject: Re: Brok line - Mary Countess of Buckingham --> William Basset
(Fledburgh)


John Higgins wrote:
If this is based on what's in Genealogics, it's almost certainly another
Paget error. Mary Basset the mother of Anthony Beaumont of Glenfield is
more likely the daughter of William Basset of Blore [not Fledburgh} (d.
1497
or 1498) and Joan Byron, not William Basset of Fledburgh (d. before
1442)
and Catherine Stanhope, as Paget has it.

I am very interested in this idea that Mary Basset is actually from the
Blore Bassets rather than the Fledburgh ones and was the daughter of
William of Blore. Could you provide a source for this statement?

Interestingly "The Beaumonts in History" p125 says she was the daughter
of Sir Thomas Basset of Blore and cites Farnham, Leic. Pedigrees for
this gem. While Beaumont is a very variable source, and has completely
confused the Devon and Cornish Beaumonts, it is much better on the
Leicestershire ones. Having not seen Farnham I don't know if this is an
accurate representation of what he says.

Moral: Don't trust Paget without first checking other sources....

Will Johnson wrote:

In the old DNB entry for "Villiers, Edward" it remarks that
Mary [Beaumont], the Countess of Buckingham died 19 Apr 1632 and buried
aged 63 in St Edmund's Chapel, Westminster Abbey

The Beaumont book cites her MI which says she was 62 years, 11 months
and 19 days old at death, so born 30 April 1569

Here we have an opposite problem to the last one I posed.
1) d aged 63
2) dau of Anthony Beaumont of Glenfield
3) son of Mary Basset who d 6 Jul 1539
4) dau of William Basset of Fledburgh who d "bef 1442" as Leo has it.

4 implies that Mary Basset was born by 1442.
Yet 1 implies her granddaughter was born 1568/9

That isn't possible in my opinion.

Either we have two Mary Basset's, one the dau of William d bef 1442
and one much younger, or the wife of William Beaumont of Cole-Orton
was not named Mary Basset

Will Johnson


davids

Re: Brok line - Mary Countess of Buckingham --> William Bass

Legg inn av davids » 28 mai 2006 15:48:49

In the Bassets of Blore line there are only two knights: Sir John
Basset of Cheadle and Blore and Sir William Bassett of Blore and
Langley no Sir Thomas

Thomas one of three sons of Sir John Bassett and his wife Joan
Brailsford inherited the Brailsford Estate. He married Margaret
Mering and their daughter Joan married Ralph Shirley thus the
Brailsford Estate passed to the Shirleys.

However Stemmata Shirleanna says "Thomas Bassett of Blore and
Fledburgh". Tilley "Old Halls (of Derbyshire)" says Richard Basset
Sheriff of the county 1512 from the Basset Pedigree We take this
gentleman to be Richard Basset of Fledburgh co. Notts son of Thomas
Basset and his wife Margeria daughter of William and married to
Elizabeth daughter of John Denham vide Glovers visitation of Staffs
1503. In Derby Local Studies in the deeds room under "visitations" by
Challinor 1613 ref 6341 referreed to as "of Fledburgh". Nicholls
Bassetts of Blore pedigree shows Margaret of married Beaumont of Cole
Orton. According to an IPM dated 1477 Katherine Tunstall was seised
of Fledburgh and mention is made of Thomas Basset aged 34.

I have made a pretty thorough study of the Bassets of Blore and am
currently revising and re-writing my work but have never established a
relationship between Blore and Fledburgh.
Davids

John Brandon

Re: Brok line - Mary Countess of Buckingham --> William Bass

Legg inn av John Brandon » 28 mai 2006 17:08:52

"John Higgins" wrote:
consider the identification of Mary's parents to perhaps be tentative at
this point.

Remember not to split your infinitives ...

Doug McDonald

Re: Galla Placida

Legg inn av Doug McDonald » 28 mai 2006 19:39:36

(http://www.wrightsonline.net/tng/descen ... 01&tree=WS)

has that William the Conqueror is one descendent.



of somebody

But did you see the PATH??? Look at it! And laugh. This is
one the best laughs I've had in weeks.

Doug McDonald

Gjest

Re: Galla Placida

Legg inn av Gjest » 28 mai 2006 19:58:02

In a message dated 5/27/2006 6:15:18 AM Pacific Standard Time,
OlivierGuionneau@gmail.com writes:

Have Galla Placida, daughter of Roman emperor, any descendant who live
in the 21st century ?


This site
_http://www.wrightsonline.net/tng/descend.php?personID=I9101&tree=WS_
(http://www.wrightsonline.net/tng/descen ... 01&tree=WS)

has that William the Conqueror is one descendent.

And then from him, you get.. everyone.

Will Johnson

jlucsoler

Re: Galla Placida

Legg inn av jlucsoler » 28 mai 2006 21:30:43

some years ago we were told here that Galla Placidia Had one only boys know
and surely another one with Athaulf and those children died in childhood
without posterity

the line to the north and the"vickings" is fantasy...

now is there a link with Valentinian III ?

maybe.... i think Stanford and Christian could emit hypothesis...

But nothing of course is proven!!!



"Doug McDonald" <mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu> a écrit dans le message de
news: e5cqpl$k02$1@news.ks.uiuc.edu...
(http://www.wrightsonline.net/tng/descen ... 01&tree=WS) has
that William the Conqueror is one descendent.



of somebody

But did you see the PATH??? Look at it! And laugh. This is one the best
laughs I've had in weeks.

Doug McDonald

Ford Mommaerts-Browne

Re: Galla Placida

Legg inn av Ford Mommaerts-Browne » 29 mai 2006 04:11:02

----- Original Message -----
From: "jlucsoler" <jlucsoler@modulonet.fr>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 28, 2006 5:30 PM
Subject: Re: Galla Placida


| some years ago we were told here that Galla Placidia Had one only boys know
| and surely another one with Athaulf and those children died in childhood
| without posterity
|
| the line to the north and the"vickings" is fantasy...
|
| now is there a link with Valentinian III ?
|
| maybe.... i think Stanford and Christian could emit hypothesis...
|
| But nothing of course is proven!!!


Here's one possibility:

Galla Placidia, m. 2) Fl. Constantius III, Emp. 421
Valentinian III, Emp. 425-455, m. Eudoxia
Placidia, m. (455) Anicius Olybrius, Emp. 472
Anicia Juliana, m. Fl. Areobinda Dagalaiphus, cos. 434
Fl. Anicius Olybrius, cos. 491, m. Eirene of Constantinople
Proba, m. Probus of Constantinople
Juliana, m. 2?) Anastasius of Constantinople
Placidia, m. Ioannes Mystakon, Gen. ca. 585
anonymus Arshakunik
Manuel Arshakunik, magister
anonyma, m. Smbat V Bagratid, Pr. Bagratids,
spatharokandidatos, drongarios, & kyropalates

Gjest

Re: OT In Memoriam (a poem)

Legg inn av Gjest » 29 mai 2006 14:01:02

Dear Merilyn,
Thank You for the kind words. I wrote this some few years
ago now and actually, I discovered I skipped a couple of lines ; It should
read

The Young , the old, the cautious, the proud
Fought each other in Battle loud
Land, Money and Thought
The Reasons these Wars were fought
Never will there be a moratorium
We recall these men and women only in memorium

Sincerely,
James William Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

Gjest

Re: Ancestry of Thomas Hutton of Dry Drayton (d 1552)

Legg inn av Gjest » 29 mai 2006 16:39:03

WJhonson@aol.com schrieb:

In a case like this where a Manor descends to a minor, would the mother's new
husband normally be considered the "guardian" and appointed explicitely ?

Could the guardian then decide to sell that manor and just hold the money in
trust for the minor ?

There were cases where manors were illegally diverted away from the
rightful heir by a guardian, but it is unlikely in a case under
discussion.

Firstly, as a minor inheritor of a tenancy in chief, Thomas Hutton
would have become a ward of the King, and the King would (usually) have
sold the wardship on pronto; guardianships of minors could be
lucrative, as they gave the guardian the right to an estate's income
until the heir reached majority. I do not know who obtained Thomas
Hutton's wardship - possibly his uncle the Archdeacon purchased it; his
mother remarried by 1503 (having been widowed in 1501), but I don't
know exactly when. She was herself a tenant in chief, so her marriage
was technically also in the King's gift (i.e. someone could purchase
it).

Secondly, an additional safeguard had been availed of by the Childs and
Huttons, because the main landholding had been placed in the hands of
feoffees. This similar to a modern trust, whereby the feofees held the
property and received its income for the benefit of the beneficial
owner. This would have made it harder for a crooked step-father to
have his way with the property - or at least, this was one of the
intentions of the arrangement.

MA-R

Gjest

Re: C.P. Addition: Marriage date of Ranulph de Neville and E

Legg inn av Gjest » 29 mai 2006 16:44:02

Monday, 29 May, 2006


Dear Will, John (Watson), et al.,

John, many thanks for the URL you posted yesterday for Bob
Boynton's website [1].

Will, following is the text from the CPR concerning the lands
'late of Margaret de Ferrariis', which (given their extent) would
not appear to apply to a lesser individual than Margaret (de
Quincy) de Ferrers, Countess of Derby.

Cheers,

John




' March 12. Appointment, during pleasure, of Richard Fukeram
Down Ampney to the custody of all the lands late of Margaret
de Ferrariis, tenant in chief, so that he cultivate
and sow them and answer for the issues at the
Exchequer.
Mandate in pursuance to the sheriffs of Northampton,
Leicester, Lincoln, Derby, Essex, Stafford, Bedford
and Nottingham. ' [2]




NOTES

[1] http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/search.html


[1] CPR 9 Edward I (membrane 25), p. 427. URL for same:

url:/patentrolls/e1v1/body/Edward1vol1page0427.pdf

Gjest

Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England

Legg inn av Gjest » 29 mai 2006 18:26:06

Jwc1870@aol.com wrote:
Dear Ford,
I have no idea if the term matronymic existed before You
used it or not, but it certainly makes sense to me. We have Patralineal and
Matralineal so why not matronymic to go with patronymic ?
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

The Oxford English Dictionary says it was first used in print in 1794,
modelled on patronymic...

Cheers,

Tom Green

Doug McDonald

Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England

Legg inn av Doug McDonald » 29 mai 2006 18:35:27

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 5/29/2006 9:07:07 AM Pacific Standard Time,
paulvheath@gmail.com writes:

Woden was a god, not a person, and he wasn't the father of anyone.



Later yes. But there is a theory that there was a real Woden, in the dim
past, who was the chief of his people. And that he later was developed into a
God.

Will

and if it is true, there is a good chance that I am his

all-male-line descendant

And there is actually some chance that DNA tests can decide
the truth, though of course all depends on luck and the
DNA preserving qualities of permafrost burials.

Doug McDonald

Gjest

Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England

Legg inn av Gjest » 29 mai 2006 18:51:02

In a message dated 5/29/2006 9:07:07 AM Pacific Standard Time,
paulvheath@gmail.com writes:

Woden was a god, not a person, and he wasn't the father of anyone.



Later yes. But there is a theory that there was a real Woden, in the dim
past, who was the chief of his people. And that he later was developed into a
God.

Will

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 29 mai 2006 19:02:36

In message of 29 May, WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 5/29/2006 9:07:07 AM Pacific Standard Time,
paulvheath@gmail.com writes:

Woden was a god, not a person, and he wasn't the father of anyone.

Later yes. But there is a theory that there was a real Woden, in the
dim past, who was the chief of his people. And that he later was
developed into a God.

This is certainly how the Egyptian gods developed and I would not be
surprised if some of that theology had not rubbed off on the later
Scandanavians, particularly as it was so attractive to the rulers.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

Mary Jane Battaglia

Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England

Legg inn av Mary Jane Battaglia » 29 mai 2006 20:01:01

Now, that does sound familiar. No doubt this concept can be applied to
numerous other deities.
mjbattaglia
----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, May 29, 2006 9:50 AM
Subject: Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England


In a message dated 5/29/2006 9:07:07 AM Pacific Standard Time,
paulvheath@gmail.com writes:

Woden was a god, not a person, and he wasn't the father of anyone.



Later yes. But there is a theory that there was a real Woden, in the dim
past, who was the chief of his people. And that he later was developed
into a
God.

Will


David Teague

Re: Galla Placida

Legg inn av David Teague » 29 mai 2006 20:14:01

According to Peter Heather's recent book, _The Fall of the Roman Empire: A
New History of Rome and the Barbarians_ (quite an interesting read, BTW),
Galla Placidia and Athaulf had only the one son, Theodosius, who died soon
after birth (p. 240). After Athaulf's death in 415, "Wallia gave in to Roman
pressure, and returned Placidia, now widowed and childless" (p. 241).

On 1 Jan. 417, Galla Placidia married the Roman general Flavius Constantius
(who was raised to the purple as the co-Emperor Constantius III on 8 Feb.
421). To them was born, c. 418, "the strong-minded princess Iusta Grata
Honoria" (p. 251), who later conceived an illegitimate child by her business
manager Eugenius, was removed from public life and returned to her mother's
custody and "betrothed to a dull senator by the name of Herculianus" -- and
then supposedly wrote to Atilla the Hun to offer herself as his bride, along
with 1/2 of the Western Empire as a dowry (p. 335). According to Heather,
"We don't know what ultimately happened to Honoria" (p. 336).

The other child of Galla Placidia and Constantius III was, of course,
Valentinian III, b. in July 419.

David Teague


From: "Ford Mommaerts-Browne" <FordMommaerts@Cox.net
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Galla Placida
Date: Sun, 28 May 2006 23:18:52 -0300

----- Original Message -----
From: "jlucsoler" <jlucsoler@modulonet.fr
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Sunday, May 28, 2006 5:30 PM
Subject: Re: Galla Placida


| some years ago we were told here that Galla Placidia Had one only boys
know
| and surely another one with Athaulf and those children died in childhood
| without posterity
|
| the line to the north and the"vickings" is fantasy...
|
| now is there a link with Valentinian III ?
|
| maybe.... i think Stanford and Christian could emit hypothesis...
|
| But nothing of course is proven!!!


Here's one possibility:

Galla Placidia, m. 2) Fl. Constantius III, Emp. 421
Valentinian III, Emp. 425-455, m. Eudoxia
Placidia, m. (455) Anicius Olybrius, Emp. 472
Anicia Juliana, m. Fl. Areobinda Dagalaiphus, cos. 434
Fl. Anicius Olybrius, cos. 491, m. Eirene of Constantinople
Proba, m. Probus of Constantinople
Juliana, m. 2?) Anastasius of Constantinople
Placidia, m. Ioannes Mystakon, Gen. ca. 585
anonymus Arshakunik
Manuel Arshakunik, magister
anonyma, m. Smbat V Bagratid, Pr. Bagratids,
spatharokandidatos, drongarios, & kyropalates


Gjest

Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England

Legg inn av Gjest » 29 mai 2006 20:15:08

The falsity of that theory is easily demonstrated: "only three
generations separate the fifth century humans Hengest and Horsa from
the god Woden, who was worshipped at least as early as the first
century A.D." (W. A. Chaney "The Cult of Kingship" 1970).

Woden's alleged son Vecta is a Roman name for the Isle of Wight
(found in two Roman sources and Bede). No man nor god can begat an
island, nor can an island be the grandfather of a couple of horses.

Ford Mommaerts-Browne

Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England

Legg inn av Ford Mommaerts-Browne » 29 mai 2006 20:25:02

----- Original Message -----
From: <hrothgar_cyning@hotmail.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, May 29, 2006 2:26 PM
Subject: Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England


|
| Jwc1870@aol.com wrote:
| > Dear Ford,
| > I have no idea if the term matronymic existed before You
| > used it or not, but it certainly makes sense to me. We have Patralineal and
| > Matralineal so why not matronymic to go with patronymic ?
| > Sincerely,
| > James W Cummings
| > Dixmont, Maine USA
|
| The Oxford English Dictionary says it was first used in print in 1794,
| modelled on patronymic...
|
| Cheers,
|
| Tom Green

Bubble-burster!

Ford Mommaerts-Browne

Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England

Legg inn av Ford Mommaerts-Browne » 29 mai 2006 20:27:02

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mary Jane Battaglia" <mjbatt@mindspring.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, May 29, 2006 3:00 PM
Subject: Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England


| Now, that does sound familiar. No doubt this concept can be applied to
| numerous other deities.
| mjbattaglia




The entire corpus of Early Irish, and a good chunk of early Welsh pedigrees.




| ----- Original Message -----
| From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
| To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
| Sent: Monday, May 29, 2006 9:50 AM
| Subject: Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England
|
|
| >
| > In a message dated 5/29/2006 9:07:07 AM Pacific Standard Time,
| > paulvheath@gmail.com writes:
| >
| > Woden was a god, not a person, and he wasn't the father of anyone.
| >
| >
| >
| > Later yes. But there is a theory that there was a real Woden, in the dim
| > past, who was the chief of his people. And that he later was developed
| > into a
| > God.
| >
| > Will
| >
| >
|
|

Gjest

Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England

Legg inn av Gjest » 29 mai 2006 20:41:46

According to the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, if you are a male line
descendant of Woden, then you are also a male line descendant of Adam:

"And Ethelwulf was the son of
Egbert, Egbert of Ealhmund, Ealhmund of Eafa, Eafa of Eoppa,
Eoppa of Ingild; Ingild was the brother of Ina, king of the
West-Saxons, who held that kingdom thirty-seven winters, and
afterwards went to St. Peter, where he died. And they were the
sons of Cenred, Cenred of Ceolwald, Ceolwald of Cutha, Cutha of
Cuthwin, Cuthwin of Ceawlin, Ceawlin of Cynric, Cynric of Creoda,
Creoda of Cerdic, Cerdic of Elesa, Elesa of Esla, Esla of Gewis,
Gewis of Wig, Wig of Freawine, Freawine of Frithugar, Frithugar
of Brond, Brond of Balday, Balday of Woden, Woden of Frithuwald,
Frithuwald of Freawine, Freawine of Frithuwualf, Frithuwulf of
Finn, Finn of Godwulf, Godwulf of Great, Great of Taetwa, Taetwa
of Beaw, Beaw of Sceldwa, Sceldwa of Heremod, Heremod of Itermon,
Itermon of Hathra, Hathra of Hwala, Hwala of Bedwig, Bedwig of
Sceaf; that is, the son of Noah, who was born in Noah's ark:
Laznech, Methusalem, Enoh, Jared, Malalahel, Cainion, Enos, Seth,
Adam the first man, and our Father, that is, Christ. Amen."

(There are some variants.)

Chris Bennett

Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England

Legg inn av Chris Bennett » 29 mai 2006 20:56:39

"Tim Powys-Lybbe" <tim@powys.org> wrote in message
news:81fdba2e4e.tim@south-frm.demon.co.uk...
In message of 29 May, WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 5/29/2006 9:07:07 AM Pacific Standard Time,
paulvheath@gmail.com writes:

Woden was a god, not a person, and he wasn't the father of anyone.

Later yes. But there is a theory that there was a real Woden, in the
dim past, who was the chief of his people. And that he later was
developed into a God.

This is certainly how the Egyptian gods developed and I would not be
surprised if some of that theology had not rubbed off on the later
Scandanavians, particularly as it was so attractive to the rulers.


I think you've been reading too much Roger Zelazny ("Creatures of Light and
Darkness" -- great book).

Where did you get the idea that the Egyptian gods are euhemerisations? And
how exactly is that idea supposed to have travelled from pre-dynastic Egypt
to Viking Scandinavia??

Chris

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

Paul K Davis

Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England

Legg inn av Paul K Davis » 29 mai 2006 22:35:03

The facts that Woden was a god and Vecta was an island does not prove that
there were not also people of these names. Some believe there was a
historical Woden, who was named after the god or who was the prototype of
the god. I have an open mind until further evidence should arise.

-- PKD [Paul K Davis, pkd-gm@earthlink.net]


[Original Message]
From: <paulvheath@gmail.com
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Date: 5/29/2006 9:07:27 AM
Subject: Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England

Woden was a god, not a person, and he wasn't the father of anyone.

Vecta is the Isle of Wight, and that isn't the grandfather of anybody.

Unfortunately, Anglo-Saxon genealogies are full of falsehoods.

Gjest

Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England

Legg inn av Gjest » 29 mai 2006 22:39:03

In a message dated 5/29/06 12:52:22 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
paulvheath@gmail.com writes:

<< And they were the
sons of Cenred, Cenred of Ceolwald, Ceolwald of Cutha, Cutha of
Cuthwin, Cuthwin of Ceawlin, Ceawlin of Cynric, Cynric of Creoda,
Creoda of Cerdic, Cerdic of Elesa, Elesa of Esla, Esla of Gewis,
Gewis of Wig, Wig of Freawine, Freawine of Frithugar, Frithugar
of Brond, Brond of Balday, Balday of Woden, Woden of Frithuwald,
Frithuwald of Freawine, Freawine of Frithuwualf, Frithuwulf of
Finn, Finn of Godwulf, Godwulf of Great, Great of Taetwa, Taetwa
of Beaw, Beaw of Sceldwa, Sceldwa of Heremod, Heremod of Itermon,
Itermon of Hathra, Hathra of Hwala, Hwala of Bedwig, Bedwig of
Sceaf; that is, the son of Noah, who was born in Noah's ark:
Laznech, Methusalem, Enoh, Jared, Malalahel, Cainion, Enos, Seth,
Adam the first man, and our Father, that is, Christ. Amen." >>

Of course we need to be aware that this descent is much much too short to be
literal and complete.
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England

Legg inn av Gjest » 29 mai 2006 22:40:03

In a message dated 5/29/06 12:22:23 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
paulvheath@gmail.com writes:

<< Woden's alleged son Vecta is a Roman name for the Isle of Wight
(found in two Roman sources and Bede). No man nor god can begat an
island, nor can an island be the grandfather of a couple of horses. >>

The island was named for the person. Simple enough :)
Will

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 29 mai 2006 22:57:41

In message of 29 May, "Chris Bennett" <cjbennett@sbcglobal.net> wrote:


"Tim Powys-Lybbe" <tim@powys.org> wrote in message
news:81fdba2e4e.tim@south-frm.demon.co.uk...
In message of 29 May, WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 5/29/2006 9:07:07 AM Pacific Standard Time,
paulvheath@gmail.com writes:

Woden was a god, not a person, and he wasn't the father of anyone.

Later yes. But there is a theory that there was a real Woden, in the
dim past, who was the chief of his people. And that he later was
developed into a God.

This is certainly how the Egyptian gods developed and I would not be
surprised if some of that theology had not rubbed off on the later
Scandanavians, particularly as it was so attractive to the rulers.


I think you've been reading too much Roger Zelazny ("Creatures of Light and
Darkness" -- great book).

Where did you get the idea that the Egyptian gods are euhemerisations? And
how exactly is that idea supposed to have travelled from pre-dynastic Egypt
to Viking Scandinavia??

The ideas came from two books, first Carter's on his exploration in the
Valley of the Kings and second Zahi Hawass' (Secretary general of
Egypt's Supreme Council of Antiquities) on the Tutankhamun discoveries
and what we know of their history, culture and religion.

Tutankhamun was around at 1330 BC. Their religion was highly
theocratic and with an identification between the gods and the rulers.
This must have been both enormously powerful in encouraging obedience
from the ruled and a set of doctrines to appeal to any other ruler.

There was plenty of time for something of this to get to Scandinavia by,
perhaps 500 AD.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

Gjest

Re: William FitzWilliam of Milton d 8 Sep 1534

Legg inn av Gjest » 29 mai 2006 23:58:02

In a message dated 5/27/06 2:52:19 AM Pacific Daylight Time, tim@powys.org
writes:

<< The Lincolshire pedigrees, pub Harleian Soc in 1903, Vol II, p. 730
show a Beatrix, dau of John Cooke of Gidea Hall, Essex who was an
executrix in 1556 and who married Richard Ogle of Pinchbeck, who d. 25
Nov 1555 and was son of Richard Ogle and Mary FitzWilliam. >>


Tim thanks for looking this up, that helps.
Tudorplace.ar calls this daughter "Catherine" but perhaps that's a mistake.

Placing her as dau to John Cooke of Gidea Hall (and thus Alice Saunders)
means that the Beatrice Cooke who m Nicholas Rawson of Aveley, was her aunt. This
older Beatrice and her brother John Cooke of Gidea Hall (d 1515) children of
Sir Philip Cooke, Knt of Gidea "Park" [as found], Essex (d 1503) and his wife
Elizabeth Belknap d 1517.

I don't know how Philip got Gidea {also Giddy) Park or Hall in the first
place however. His father-in-law is called "Esq, of Crofton, Kent"

Will

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: William FitzWilliam of Milton d 8 Sep 1534

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 30 mai 2006 00:17:43

In message of 29 May, WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

<On the Cookes of Gidea Hall>

I don't know how Philip got Gidea {also Giddy) Park or Hall in the
first place however. His father-in-law is called "Esq, of Crofton,
Kent"

DNB first edition for his grandfather Sir Thos Cooke (d. c. May 1478)
says:

"In 1467 Cooke began to build a mansion called Gidea Hall, near
Romford in Essex, and obtained a license for fortifying and
embattling it; but on account of his subsequent misfortunes he
completed only the front, the remaining sides of the quadrangle being
built by Sir Anthony Cooke [q.v.]."

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

Gjest

Re: Identity of Isabella (d. 1364), Mother of Margaret Danye

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 mai 2006 00:20:03

In a message dated 5/27/06 4:52:13 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk writes:

<< And the deforciant further granted that the one-third part of the manor,
which Isabella widow of Richard de Vernon, chivaler, held in dower; and the
one-third part of the said two parts, which John de Molyneux, chivaler, and
Clementia, his wife, held in dower, >>

I present two items and then a statement
-----------
Item 1:
Subj: Re: King's Kinsfolk: Richard II's kinsman, Edmund Staffiord
Date: 9/1/05 9:34:08 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: rbevan@paradise.net.nz (Rosie Bevan)
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
<snip>
In 1346 Henry de la Pole sued Joan formerly wife of William Vernon of Nether
Haddon [Wm Salt 12:58]
-------------
Item 2:
Subj: Identity of Isabella (d. 1364), Mother of Margaret Danyers, Heiress
of Clifton
Date: 5/25/06 8:45:26 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: ToddWhitesides@aol.com (Todd Whitesides)
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com

<snip>
1. Roger de Chedle married twice: to Joan and to Matilda. By Joan he was
the father of two daughters and co-heiresses:
1-A. Clemence de Chedle who married first to William de Baggelegh, and then
to John de Molyneux, Kt.
1-B. Agnes de Chedle, wife of Richard de Bulkelegh.

The only heirs of Clemence de Chedle (1-A) were three children by her second
husband John de Molyneux, Kt.: (1-A-1) Robert de Molyneux (d.s.p.), (1-A-2)
Joan de Molyneux (d.s.p.), and (1-A-3) Isabella de Molyneux.
-----------------
Could the wife Joan of William de Vernon who is not certain to have had
children (although some show this), be this Joan de Molyneux ? This would tie the
Vernon's into the Molyneux possibly explaining how Isabella de Vernon widow
and Clementia Molyneux come to be sharing a manor ?

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Identity of Isabella (d. 1364), Mother of Margaret Danye

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 mai 2006 00:50:03

Below I present two items and then a statement.
Will Johnson
------------------------------
Item ONE:
In a message dated 5/29/06 3:52:27 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk writes:
<snipped>
<< [QUOTE] An inquisition concerning the land of Thomas Danyers, otherwise
Daniel, made in February, 1349-50, shows .... Thomas died on the feast of
St. Bartholomew (August 12th), 1349. Isabella survived him, but had since died
in another county, the jury did not know where. The heir was their daughter,
Margaret, aged 3 years and more (Cal. Inq. p.m., 24 Edward III, p.175). >>
----------------------------------
Item TWO
Subj: Identity of Isabella (d. 1364), Mother of Margaret Danyers, Heiress
of Clifton
Date: 5/25/06 8:45:26 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: ToddWhitesides@aol.com (Todd Whitesides)
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com

<snipped> As far as I know the 1364 IPM of "Isabella quae fuit ux' Thomae
Danyers" only identifies her deceased husband and her daughter "Margar' ux'
Johis de Radclif.
-----------------------------------

How is it that an IPM was conducted on Isabella at least 14 years AFTER her
death?
Thanks
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Identity of Isabella (d. 1364), Mother of Margaret Danye

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 mai 2006 00:57:02

In a message dated 5/27/06 2:37:02 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk writes:

<< > One candidate for the former might be John Radcliffe of Chadderton,
Yorkshire, son of Robert and Margaret Shoreworth of Radcliffe. He was alive after
1362 and had a wife named Margaret, but as Robert Radcliffe died
before 1309, John would have been significantly older than Margaret Danyers
and quite possibly too old to be under consideration.

Dear Hap and Todd,
Here is the section of the Rockcliff article that features the Radcliffes.
It shows that John Radciffe was son of another John, and had a brother Richard-

[QUOTE] There was an order, on November 5th, 1362, to cause John, son
of John de Radcliff, and his wife, Margaret, daughter and heir of
Thomas and Isabella Danyers, >>

In light of this, the idea that the elder John's wife was also named
Margaret, now needs to be reviewed.
In addition to the idea that the elder John survived to 1362. Apparently, it
seems, this is in reference to the order, which is above-said to be for his
son actually.

Or am I reading this wrong? When they say "John, son of John de Radcliff,
and his wife Margaret..." are they implying Margaret is the wife of the
first-stated John? or the second-stated John?

Thanks
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Identity of Isabella (d. 1364), Mother of Margaret Danye

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 mai 2006 01:03:02

In a message dated 5/29/06 3:52:27 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk writes:

<< So, Isabella Danyers, whose IPM is dated 1364, was apparently dead in
1349/50? And Margaret, given as born in 1348, was aged "3 years and
more" in 1349/50, and proved her age in 1362. Just a few more variables
to add to the equation! >>

Something seems amiss here.
Could we be dealing with two seperate Thomas Danyers who both married
Isabella's ?

John P. Ravilious

Re: C.P. Addition: Marriage date of Ranulph de Neville and E

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 30 mai 2006 01:58:42

Dear Will,

When lands were "late of" so-and-so, what is meant is, they were
no longer the lands of that person. Usually as a result of death, but
possibly the result of forfeiture. I see no evidence of such a
forfeiture, but

The dating of the document appears certain (you may wish to
consult CPR directly, using the URL I provided). Is this foolproof?
Good question. But, the CPR dating seems certain on the part of the
editors: whence comes the uncertain date "1283-86?" , and what level of
certainty should be derived from an uncertain date?

Another thought: take a look at her IPM, cited in Complete
Peerage as "Ch. Inq. p.m. (on Margaret de Ferrers, Countess of Derby),
Edw. I, file 28, no. 17 " [1]. Under the account of her younger son,
Sir William de Ferrers of Groby, G. W. Watson wrote concerning the
manors of Woodham, Stebbing and others:

" Betwen four and five years afterwards [from the date 12 Dec
1251], before he was of age, he had livery of these lands;
subsequently, he exchanged them with his mother for lands in Scotland
and Galloway, but he again had entry thereto, with her consent, 16 days
before her death, i.e., in Feb. 1280/1. " [2]

" After her death, he had livery of Woodham Ferris, Stebbing, St.
Osyth, and Fairsted, 11 May 1281. ' [3]

Cheers,

John


NOTES

[1] CP V:340, sub _Ferrers of Groby_.

[2] Ibid.

[3] Ibid., V:341



WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 5/29/06 7:42:23 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Therav3 writes:

' March 12. Appointment, during pleasure, of Richard Fukeram
Down Ampney to the custody of all the lands late of Margaret
de Ferrariis, tenant in chief, so that he cultivate
and sow them and answer for the issues at the Exchequer.
Mandate in pursuance to the sheriffs of Northampton,
Leicester, Lincoln, Derby, Essex, Stafford, Bedford and Nottingham. ' [2]




NOTES
[1] http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/search.htm
[2] CPR 9 Edward I (membrane 25), p. 427. URL for same:
url:/patentrolls/e1v1/body/Edward1vol1page0427.pdf

Could a document like this issue within the lifetime of Margaret ?
Does late always imply "dead" or can it merely imply "used to be" ?
And then this relies on how sure the editors are that this document is 9
Edward I doesn't it?
Thanks
Will

Gjest

Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 mai 2006 02:24:57

Dear Tim and others , while the Egyptian gods Ra , Amun and Aten are quite
possibly all traceable to Yahweh/Allah, the gods User (greek Osirius) and Iset
(greek Isis) more likely than not do refer directly to the Egyptian King and
Queen, several other gods are apparently of a totemic origin (such as Sutekh,
Sebek, Hor, Bastet and Hathor) there were other deified humans Imhetep and
Ptahhetep as well.
Sincerely,

James W Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA

norenxaq

Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England

Legg inn av norenxaq » 30 mai 2006 02:32:54

Jwc1870@aol.com wrote:

Dear Tim and others , while the Egyptian gods Ra , Amun and Aten are quite
possibly all traceable to Yahweh/Allah,

traceable how????

Gjest

Re: Brok line - Mary Countess of Buckingham --> William Bass

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 mai 2006 03:31:19

In a message dated 5/28/06 7:52:20 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
davidswinscoe29@aol.com writes:

<< Thomas one of three sons of Sir John Bassett and his wife Joan
Brailsford inherited the Brailsford Estate. He married Margaret
Mering and their daughter Joan married Ralph Shirley thus the
Brailsford Estate passed to the Shirleys. >>

Other than Joan, did they also have a daughter Catherine who m Thomas Sutton
of Aram and having issue Henry Sutton of Aram who m Alice Harrington and
having issue Anne Sutton who m Henry Brooke of Cobham (d abt 10 Nov 1612).

Thanks
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: C.P. Addition: Marriage date of Ranulph de Neville and E

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 mai 2006 03:37:19

In a message dated 5/29/06 7:42:23 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Therav3 writes:

<< ' March 12. Appointment, during pleasure, of Richard Fukeram
Down Ampney to the custody of all the lands late of Margaret
de Ferrariis, tenant in chief, so that he cultivate
and sow them and answer for the issues at the Exchequer.
Mandate in pursuance to the sheriffs of Northampton,
Leicester, Lincoln, Derby, Essex, Stafford, Bedford and Nottingham. ' [2]




NOTES
[1] http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/search.htm
[2] CPR 9 Edward I (membrane 25), p. 427. URL for same:
url:/patentrolls/e1v1/body/Edward1vol1page0427.pdf >>

Could a document like this issue within the lifetime of Margaret ?
Does late always imply "dead" or can it merely imply "used to be" ?
And then this relies on how sure the editors are that this document is 9
Edward I doesn't it?
Thanks
Will

Gjest

Re: Brok line - Mary Countess of Buckingham --> William Bass

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 mai 2006 05:34:02

In a message dated 5/29/06 8:01:49 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
jthiggins@sbcglobal.net writes:

<< FWIW, the sequence you show below, from Bassett of Fledburgh through Sutton
of Aram to Brooke of Cobham, does show up in visitation pedigrees -
specifically the Visitation of Notts (HSP 4). >>

Does the Visitation make it specific that the Basset's were "of Fledburgh" ?
because a recent post on this thread, said that this line of Basset's were not.
Thanks
Will

Gjest

Re: Sir William Brenchley (d1406)

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 mai 2006 05:42:29

In a message dated 5/29/06 1:15:24 PM Pacific Daylight Time, usenet@mcsuk.net
writes:

<< I'm looking for information on Sir William Brenchley, Justice of the
Common Pleas, who died in 1406. I have him married to Johanne (or
Joan) Batisford who died in 1453.

Does anyone have any more information on this pair? >>

I don't have him died in 1406, but rather "bef 26 May 1406"
Joan Brenchley left a will

Louise Staley in a post here 2/17/06 mentions that " Joan Brenchley's will
mentions Elizabeth Lewkenor, daughter of Sir William Echynham and her son Thomas
Hoo, again suggesting the families were closely tied."

However "...* the IPM of Margery Peplesham in 1406 lists her heir as her
grandson Roger Fiennes, son of her daughter Elizabeth"

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 mai 2006 05:57:04

Dear fellow Listers,
in Ancient Egyptian, the sun god Ra`s name
apparently meant creator, Amun meant "the hidden one' and Aten meant "renewing
one" Yahweh / Allah is considered the creator who can`t be seen by human eyes and
who is the renewer of life. As to the deified King and Queen reference Us er
means throne ruler ( or occupier) and Is et (throne renewer) the letters a,
e, i , o and u are generally considered interchangable.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

John Higgins

Re: Brok line - Mary Countess of Buckingham --> William Bass

Legg inn av John Higgins » 30 mai 2006 06:01:36

FWIW, the sequence you show below, from Bassett of Fledburgh through Sutton
of Aram to Brooke of Cobham, does show up in visitation pedigrees -
specifically the Visitation of Notts (HSP 4).

----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, May 29, 2006 5:30 PM
Subject: Re: Brok line - Mary Countess of Buckingham --> William Basset
(Fledburgh)


In a message dated 5/28/06 7:52:20 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
davidswinscoe29@aol.com writes:

Thomas one of three sons of Sir John Bassett and his wife Joan
Brailsford inherited the Brailsford Estate. He married Margaret
Mering and their daughter Joan married Ralph Shirley thus the
Brailsford Estate passed to the Shirleys.

Other than Joan, did they also have a daughter Catherine who m Thomas
Sutton
of Aram and having issue Henry Sutton of Aram who m Alice Harrington and
having issue Anne Sutton who m Henry Brooke of Cobham (d abt 10 Nov 1612).

Thanks
Will Johnson


John Higgins

Re: Brok line - Mary Countess of Buckingham --> William Bass

Legg inn av John Higgins » 30 mai 2006 06:23:02

As mentioned earlier in this thread, the Bassett pedigrees in the Notts
visitation do explicitly refer to Thomas Bassett "of Fledborough" and his
wife Margaret Meering. [not called SIR Thomas]

The earlier posts do not say that this line was not "of Fledburgh" but
rather that the connection between the Fledburgh line and the other Bassetts
cannot be firmly determined - which I think is still true. One earlier post
suggested that this Thomas Bassett was the one otherwise said to be "of
Brailsford" and thus son of Sir John of Chedle, ancestor of the Blore
Bassetts. The Notts visitations give another hypothesis, that the Fledburgh
Bassetts were descended from an uncle of Sir Ralph Bassett of Sapcote, who
was summoned to Parliaments in 1371 and 1372 and thus deemed by later
peerage compilers to be Lord Basset of Sapcote [se CP 2:8]. But the
visitation pedigrees, while outlining a purported Bassett of Fledburgh
descent for a few generations, show a gap before our Thomas and do not
explicitly connect him to the earlier ones, while still calling him "of
Fledborough".

FWIW, there's a note in CP 2:7 that R. E. Chester Waters, "The Family of
Chester of Chicheley", pp. 197-9, has "much valuable information respecting
the family of Basset of Sapcote" and thus might shed some light if there is
in fact a connection between the Sapcote and Fledburgh Bassetts.

This line, and specifically the Fledburgh connection, continues to be a
mystery to me....

----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, May 29, 2006 8:32 PM
Subject: Re: Brok line - Mary Countess of Buckingham --> William Basset
(Fledburgh)


In a message dated 5/29/06 8:01:49 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
jthiggins@sbcglobal.net writes:

FWIW, the sequence you show below, from Bassett of Fledburgh through
Sutton
of Aram to Brooke of Cobham, does show up in visitation pedigrees -
specifically the Visitation of Notts (HSP 4).

Does the Visitation make it specific that the Basset's were "of Fledburgh"
?
because a recent post on this thread, said that this line of Basset's were
not.
Thanks
Will


Ford Mommaerts-Browne

Re: Euhemerisation

Legg inn av Ford Mommaerts-Browne » 30 mai 2006 07:03:02

I have been having an extremely difficult time seeing a connection between Osiris & Isis, and the Anglo-Saxons, kings or no'.

----- Original Message -----
From: <Jwc1870@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, May 29, 2006 11:56 PM
Subject: Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England


| Dear fellow Listers,
| in Ancient Egyptian, the sun god Ra`s name
| apparently meant creator, Amun meant "the hidden one' and Aten meant "renewing
| one" Yahweh / Allah is considered the creator who can`t be seen by human eyes and
| who is the renewer of life. As to the deified King and Queen reference Us er
| means throne ruler ( or occupier) and Is et (throne renewer) the letters a,
| e, i , o and u are generally considered interchangable.
| Sincerely,
| James W Cummings
| Dixmont, Maine USA
|

norenxaq

Re: Euhemerisation

Legg inn av norenxaq » 30 mai 2006 07:11:01

Ford Mommaerts-Browne wrote:

I have been having an extremely difficult time seeing a connection between Osiris & Isis, and the Anglo-Saxons, kings or no'.



there probably is none

----- Original Message -----
From: <Jwc1870@aol.com
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Monday, May 29, 2006 11:56 PM
Subject: Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England


| Dear fellow Listers,
| in Ancient Egyptian, the sun god Ra`s name
| apparently meant creator, Amun meant "the hidden one' and Aten meant "renewing
| one" Yahweh / Allah is considered the creator who can`t be seen by human eyes and
| who is the renewer of life. As to the deified King and Queen reference Us er
| means throne ruler ( or occupier) and Is et (throne renewer) the letters a,
| e, i , o and u are generally considered interchangable.
| Sincerely,
| James W Cummings
| Dixmont, Maine USA
|



Louise Staley

Re: Sir William Brenchley (d1406)

Legg inn av Louise Staley » 30 mai 2006 07:31:18

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 5/29/06, usenet@mcsuk.net wrote:

I'm looking for information on Sir William Brenchley, Justice of the
Common Pleas, who died in 1406. I have him married to Johanne (or
Joan) Batisford who died in 1453.

Does anyone have any more information on this pair?

I don't have him died in 1406, but rather "bef 26 May 1406"
Joan Brenchley left a will

Louise Staley in a post here 2/17/06 mentions that " Joan Brenchley's will
mentions Elizabeth Lewkenor, daughter of Sir William Echynham and her son Thomas
Hoo, again suggesting the families were closely tied."

However "...* the IPM of Margery Peplesham in 1406 lists her heir as her
grandson Roger Fiennes, son of her daughter Elizabeth"

Will Johnson

My working hypothesis, based on the above two items is that Joan

Batisford was not the daughter of Margery Peplesham, but of a later,
unknown, wife of William Batisford. However, I am open to other
interpretations. Apart from the fact Joan was not an heir of Margery,
there is also the problem of her death in 1453 compared to her supposed
sisters Elizabeth (d. 1405) and (maybe) Alice (on my construction, s.p.
bef. 1406). I also note that Joan Brenchley's will does not provide any
relationships.

Louise

Gjest

Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 mai 2006 12:18:50

"Ford Mommaerts-Browne" wrote:

| The Oxford English Dictionary says it was first used in print in 1794,
| modelled on patronymic...
|
| Cheers,
|
| Tom Green

Bubble-burster!

Sorry :-) But you still have DFA, I seem to recall...

Tom

Gjest

Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 mai 2006 12:36:02

"Ford Mommaerts-Browne" wrote:

| Now, that does sound familiar. No doubt this concept can be applied to
| numerous other deities.
| mjbattaglia

The entire corpus of Early Irish, and a good chunk of early Welsh pedigrees.

Indeed. You're probably already familiar with these, but they are
worth a wider audience, I think, for demonstrating both the process
under discussion here and continuity in oral tradition between the
pre-Roman Iron Age and medieval oral and literary traditions:

Koch, J.T. 1990, 'Brân, Brennos: An Instance of Early
Gallo-Brittonic History and Mythology' in _Cambridge Medieval Celtic
Studies_ 20 (Winter), pp.1-20 [argues that Bran, who probably
functioned as the Brittonic god of death, was actually the historical
Brennos -- see for example
http://www.celtnet.org.uk/gods_b/brennos.html on Brennos]

Koch, J.T. 1987, 'A Welsh Window on the Iron Age: Manawydan,
Mandubracios' in _Cambridge Medieval Celtic Studies_ 14 (Winter),
pp.17-52 [argues that Manawydan map Llyr, the Welsh cognate of the
Irish sea-god Manannán mac Lir, was actually the pre-Roman British
King Mandubracios of the Trinovantes]

Simon Young gave a brief summary of Koch's ideas in 'Celtic Myths,
Celtic History?' in _History Today_, April 2002, 52.4

Cheers,

Tom Green

Ye Old One

Re: Re: Sir William Brenchley (d1406)

Legg inn av Ye Old One » 30 mai 2006 13:41:31

On Tue, 30 May 2006 02:42:29 +0000 (UTC), WJhonson@aol.com enriched
this group when s/he wrote:

In a message dated 5/29/06 1:15:24 PM Pacific Daylight Time, usenet@mcsuk.net
writes:

I'm looking for information on Sir William Brenchley, Justice of the
Common Pleas, who died in 1406. I have him married to Johanne (or
Joan) Batisford who died in 1453.

Does anyone have any more information on this pair?

I don't have him died in 1406, but rather "bef 26 May 1406"
Joan Brenchley left a will

Louise Staley in a post here 2/17/06 mentions that " Joan Brenchley's will
mentions Elizabeth Lewkenor, daughter of Sir William Echynham and her son Thomas
Hoo, again suggesting the families were closely tied."

However "...* the IPM of Margery Peplesham in 1406 lists her heir as her
grandson Roger Fiennes, son of her daughter Elizabeth"

Will Johnson

I have the text of Sir William's will as follows:

=================================================================================
Medieval Kent Wills at Lambeth - Book 23 Page 333a


William BRENCHESLE, Will 19 June 1406


A translation into English from Latin / French transcriptions made by
Leland L. Duncan

WILLIAM BRENCHESLE, Knight, Wednesday the Vigil of the Lord’ Ascension
1406. To be buried in the church of the Prior of Christ Church
Canterbury. I leave to the Prior and Convent of the same a competent
sum to pray for my soul as my executors may see fit. Residue to
Johanne my wife, whom with Master John Graue, clerk, William Makenade
and Wm. Cheyne of Sussex I make executors.
Proved 26 May 1406 and administration to William Cheyne Esquire
(scutifer) executor with powers reserved for others. (231a Arundel I).

=================================================================================

That being taken from:
http://www.kentarchaeology.org.uk/Resea ... 20333a.htm

Now I must say I've often wondered why the will is shown as 19th June
1406 while the proving is given as 26th May 1406 - anyone any idea on
that?

Anyway, his wife's will reads as follows:

=================================================================================
Medieval Kent Wills at Lambeth - Book 21 Page 25

Lady Johanna BRENCHESLE, Will 6th August 1453


A translation into English from Latin / French transcriptions made by
Leland L. Duncan

Lady JOHANNA BRENCHISLE late wife of William Brenchesle Knight. Monday
6 August 1453. To be buried in the Cathedral church of the Holy
Trinity Canterbury under the marble stone where the body of the said
William late my husband lieth buried. To the high altar of the church
of Byxle [???] 13s. 4. To the reparation of the body or Nave of the
said church 13s. 4d. To the shrine (feretrosive capse) of St. Richard
of Chichester 13s. 4d. To Denyse Fynche 100 marcs. To Edward Fynche
£20. To Richard Lolle if he is in my service when I die 6s. 8d. To
James Thomas 10 marcs, Edmund Thomas 10 marcs. To each of my poor
tenents 4d. Residue to my executors to dispose for my soul. I
constitute Lady Elizabeth Lewkenore, Thomas Hoo Esquire and Alexr.
Altham clerk, executors.
Proved 7 November 1453. (310b Kempe).
=================================================================================

Taken from:
http://www.kentarchaeology.org.uk/Resea ... %20025.htm


I've also been quoted this by someone on another group:

=================================================================================

"If we can believe Edward Hasted's History of Kent (1793), the manor
of Benenden was passed on via a female heiress, Joane de Benenden (who
died without issue in 1453), she having married Sir William Brenchley,
chief justice of common pleas (d. 1446). It thereafter passed to
Margaret, the daughter and coheir of John Brenchley, esq., by Margaret
Golding, his wife (she being the daughter and heiress of Richard
Golding). Margaret Brenchley married William Moore (during the 21st
year of King Henry VI) and the manor thereafter continued for some
time in the Moore/More/de la More family."

=================================================================================

Notice that here William's death is given as 1446 not 1406.

Can anyone make sense of all this and maybe confirm some of the dates?

--
Bob.

Gjest

Re: Identity of Isabella (d. 1364), Mother of Margaret Danye

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 mai 2006 13:41:31

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk writes:

So, Isabella Danyers, whose IPM is dated 1364, was apparently dead in
1349/50? And Margaret, given as born in 1348, was aged "3 years and
more" in 1349/50, and proved her age in 1362. Just a few more variables
to add to the equation!

Something seems amiss here.
Could we be dealing with two seperate Thomas Danyers who both married
Isabella's ?

If so, both couples left an only child called Margaret; and it seems
that both those Margarets married a John de Radcliffe. So, it looks
unlikely, although not yet impossible.

The differences in the documents don't seem totally insurmountable- it
would be interesting to know whether the 1364 IPM stated any date of
death for Isabella Danyers, i.e., 14 years previously or not. Perhaps
the late date could have been connected with Margaret's coming of age
in 1362, and needing more evidence to estabish her title to her
mother's inheritance?

MLS

RE: Galla Placida Two more lines of descent

Legg inn av MLS » 30 mai 2006 14:06:02

Dear Ford and Jean Luc,

At this link
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/i ... na_Valenti
nia_%2811613%29_to_duke_and_marquis_don_Marco_II_Lupis.jpg I posted TO
MORE lines of descent fron Galla Placidia to myself, VIA Valentinian
III.

What do you think about it?

Wait to read your thoughts

Marco



-----Original Message-----
From: Ford Mommaerts-Browne [mailto:FordMommaerts@Cox.net]
Sent: Monday, May 29, 2006 4:19 AM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Galla Placida


----- Original Message -----
From: "jlucsoler" <jlucsoler@modulonet.fr>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 28, 2006 5:30 PM
Subject: Re: Galla Placida


| some years ago we were told here that Galla Placidia Had one only boys

| know
| and surely another one with Athaulf and those children died in
childhood
| without posterity
|
| the line to the north and the"vickings" is fantasy...
|
| now is there a link with Valentinian III ?
|
| maybe.... i think Stanford and Christian could emit hypothesis...
|
| But nothing of course is proven!!!


Here's one possibility:

Galla Placidia, m. 2) Fl. Constantius III, Emp. 421
Valentinian III, Emp. 425-455, m. Eudoxia
Placidia, m. (455) Anicius Olybrius, Emp. 472
Anicia Juliana, m. Fl. Areobinda Dagalaiphus, cos. 434
Fl. Anicius Olybrius, cos. 491, m. Eirene of Constantinople Proba, m.
Probus of Constantinople Juliana, m. 2?) Anastasius of Constantinople
Placidia, m. Ioannes Mystakon, Gen. ca. 585 anonymus Arshakunik Manuel
Arshakunik, magister anonyma, m. Smbat V Bagratid, Pr. Bagratids,
spatharokandidatos, drongarios, & kyropalates




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Gjest

Re: Identity of Isabella (d. 1364), Mother of Margaret Danye

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 mai 2006 14:19:37

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk writes:
[Hap Sutliff wrote:]
One candidate for the former might be John Radcliffe of Chadderton,
Yorkshire, son of Robert and Margaret Shoreworth of Radcliffe. He was alive after
1362 and had a wife named Margaret, but as Robert Radcliffe died
before 1309, John would have been significantly older than Margaret Danyers
and quite possibly too old to be under consideration.

Here is the section of the Rockcliff article that features the Radcliffes.
It shows that John Radciffe was son of another John, and had a brother Richard-

There was an order, on November 5th, 1362, to cause John, son
of John de Radcliff, and his wife, Margaret, daughter and heir of
Thomas and Isabella Danyers,

In light of this, the idea that the elder John's wife was also named
Margaret, now needs to be reviewed.
In addition to the idea that the elder John survived to 1362. Apparently, it
seems, this is in reference to the order, which is above-said to be for his
son actually.

Interesting point, I hadn't noticed the repetition of 1362- it does
look like there could be a connection; and if so, then a review might
be in order, as you suggest.

Or am I reading this wrong? When they say "John, son of John de Radcliff,
and his wife Margaret..." are they implying Margaret is the wife of the
first-stated John? or the second-stated John?

It must be the younger John who married Margaret; otherwise, she would
be proving her age only for her parents' land to be granted directly to
her son, who could by definition only be an infant himself. In fact, it
seems clear that her proof of age means that the couple are now free to
enjoy her inheritance. Whether the mention of the elder John proves
that he was then living, I don't know.

Gjest

Re: Identity of Isabella (d. 1364), Mother of Margaret Danye

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 mai 2006 14:52:17

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk writes:

And the deforciant further granted that the one-third part of the manor,
which Isabella widow of Richard de Vernon, chivaler, held in dower; and the
one-third part of the said two parts, which John de Molyneux, chivaler, and
Clementia, his wife, held in dower,

I present two items and then a statement
-----------
Item 1:
Subj: Re: King's Kinsfolk: Richard II's kinsman, Edmund Staffiord
Date: 9/1/05 9:34:08 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: rbevan@paradise.net.nz (Rosie Bevan)
snip
In 1346 Henry de la Pole sued Joan formerly wife of William Vernon of Nether
Haddon [Wm Salt 12:58]
-------------
Item 2:
Subj: Identity of Isabella (d. 1364), Mother of Margaret Danyers, Heiress
of Clifton
Date: 5/25/06 8:45:26 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: ToddWhitesides@aol.com (Todd Whitesides)

snip
1. Roger de Chedle married twice: to Joan and to Matilda. By Joan he was
the father of two daughters and co-heiresses:
1-A. Clemence de Chedle who married first to William de Baggelegh, and then
to John de Molyneux, Kt.
1-B. Agnes de Chedle, wife of Richard de Bulkelegh.

The only heirs of Clemence de Chedle (1-A) were three children by her second
husband John de Molyneux, Kt.: (1-A-1) Robert de Molyneux (d.s.p.), (1-A-2)
Joan de Molyneux (d.s.p.), and (1-A-3) Isabella de Molyneux.
-----------------
Could the wife Joan of William de Vernon who is not certain to have had
children (although some show this), be this Joan de Molyneux ? This would tie the
Vernon's into the Molyneux possibly explaining how Isabella de Vernon widow
and Clementia Molyneux come to be sharing a manor ?

It seems chronologically possible, but doesn't really explain why
Clementia would then have dower rights in the manor though. The Vernons
certainly had the mesne manor in 1294, and we can deduce they still
held the whole manor at the death of Richard the elder c.1330, as his
widow Isabella later held a third in dower. Between 1330 and 1347/8 the
manor must have passed out of the known Vernon line; the implication
would be that William de Baggiley, or another unknown husband of
Clemence, somehow acquired it, Isabella de Vernon's life interest
notwithstanding; and after his death Clemence was holding dower there
with her new husband. It's quite possible that Clemence's daughter Joan
was the Vernon widow, even with this scenario; there may not have been
a marriage involved in the manor's original passage from the Vernons,
it could have been by gift or purchase. But Joan is too common a name
to really draw any conclusion, and as you say there is no proof either
way that Joan Vernon had no issue.

-Matthew

jlucsoler

Re: Galla Placida Two more lines of descent

Legg inn av jlucsoler » 30 mai 2006 16:46:19

sorry for makhir... the zimmerman thesis was proven false by for example Nat
Taylor..... for hildis it is a dream ....

Gjest

Re: Galla Placida Two more lines of descent

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 mai 2006 16:51:02

In a message dated 5/30/2006 5:05:42 AM Pacific Standard Time,
cannalonga@email.it writes:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/i ... na_Valenti
nia_%2811613%29_to_duke_and_marquis_don_Marco_II_Lupis.jpg


I am still not able to view this link. There is something wrong with it.
I get "404 File Not Found"
Will

Todd A. Farmerie

Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England

Legg inn av Todd A. Farmerie » 30 mai 2006 17:04:03

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 5/26/06 4:26:43 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Jwc1870@aol.com
writes:

Yes , Sweyn II Estrithson, King of Denmark in the same as
Sweyn Ulfson.

That's odd. I had had him in my database with a father, hopefully called
"Estrith" not it turns out that was his mother. Was that common? That they
could be known as the "son" of either parent? I just assumed the patrynomic (is
that what it's called?) was always in reference to the father.

The best analogy is King Henry II of England, called Henry Fitz Empress
to highlight his claim, not Henry Fitz Geoffrey.

I know of a few other examples of a matronymic (if you will). Robert
Fitz Wymarch comes immediately to mind. In the Scandinavian world, "the
sons of Lothbrok" which appears on an Orkney monument seems (based on
grammar) to be a reference to their mother, and I have sean it
speculated that Earl Siward's father, Bjorn 'Bearson" might have been
Berasson, Bera being his mother's name (this original prominance of the
mother, and hence lack of knowledge later on of the father, may also
have given rise to the National Enquirer-like story of his beastial
paternity).

taf

MLS

RE: Galla Placida Two more lines of descent

Legg inn av MLS » 30 mai 2006 17:05:01

Link address correct is

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/i ... na_Valenti
nia_%2811613%29_to_duke_and_marquis_don_Marco_II_Lupis.jpg



-----Original Message-----
From: WJhonson@aol.com [mailto:WJhonson@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 4:50 PM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Galla Placida Two more lines of descent



In a message dated 5/30/2006 5:05:42 AM Pacific Standard Time,
cannalonga@email.it writes:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/i ... na_Valenti
nia_%2811613%29_to_duke_and_marquis_don_Marco_II_Lupis.jpg


I am still not able to view this link. There is something wrong with
it. I get "404 File Not Found" Will



--
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MLS

RE RE: Galla Placida Two more lines of descent

Legg inn av MLS » 30 mai 2006 17:18:02

Oh my God!

I try to re-type the address: you must copy-paste ALL the line

"http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/it/a/a9/From_Galla_Justina_Valent
inia_%2811613%29_to_duke_and_marquis_don_Marco_II_Lupis.jpg"

Marco


-----Original Message-----
From: MLS [mailto:cannalonga@email.it]
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 5:03 PM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: RE: Galla Placida Two more lines of descent


Link address correct is

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/i ... na_Valenti
nia_%2811613%29_to_duke_and_marquis_don_Marco_II_Lupis.jpg



-----Original Message-----
From: WJhonson@aol.com [mailto:WJhonson@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 4:50 PM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Galla Placida Two more lines of descent



In a message dated 5/30/2006 5:05:42 AM Pacific Standard Time,
cannalonga@email.it writes:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/i ... na_Valenti
nia_%2811613%29_to_duke_and_marquis_don_Marco_II_Lupis.jpg


I am still not able to view this link. There is something wrong with
it. I get "404 File Not Found" Will



--
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G.J.Fox

RE: Galla Placida Two more lines of descent

Legg inn av G.J.Fox » 30 mai 2006 17:37:02

Try this version of the URL:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/i ... _Lupis.jpg

Regards
Gerald Johnson Fox

Gjest

Re: Galla Placida Two more lines of descent

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 mai 2006 17:38:02

In a message dated 5/30/2006 8:35:33 AM Pacific Standard Time,
foxgjohnson@gjfox.demon.co.uk writes:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/i ... alentinia_%2
811613%29_to_duke_and_marquis_don_Marco_II_Lupis.jpg



Thanks. This one worked!
Will

Todd A. Farmerie

Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England

Legg inn av Todd A. Farmerie » 30 mai 2006 17:53:29

paulvheath@gmail.com wrote:
The falsity of that theory is easily demonstrated: "only three
generations separate the fifth century humans Hengest and Horsa from
the god Woden, who was worshipped at least as early as the first
century A.D." (W. A. Chaney "The Cult of Kingship" 1970).

It should perhaps be noted that Hengist appears in another context -
'The Fight at Finnsberg' (a heroic poem that is told by a bard in
Beowulf, and, fortunately, a fragment of the original is also preserved).

The Wessex royal descent from Woden has also been definitively demolished.

taf

Gjest

Re: CP Omission? - Hodleston

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 mai 2006 20:21:45

WJhonson@aol.com schrieb:

In a message dated 5/30/06 8:22:45 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
mjcar@btinternet.com writes:

7a. Agnes Hudleston, married William Greene; parents of Thomas Greene
of Gressingham, Lancs (Vis. Herts); ancestors inter alia of the Docwras
of Putteridge, Herts

Does someone have the specifics on how these Greenes descend to the Docwras
of Putteridge? Thanks.
Will Johnson

Coincidentally, I do :)

1. Agnes Hudleston married William Greene (possibly the one of that
name in the Agincourt rolls), and had issue:

2. Thomas Greene, of Gressingham, Lancashire; had issue:

3. Alice Greene, married Richard Docwra; had issue:

4a. Sir Thomas Docwra, Prior of the Knights of St John in England

4b. James Docwra, of Hitchen, Herts, died circa 1497; married Catherine
Haselden; had issue:

5. John Docwra, of Temple Dinsley; died 1531; married Anne St George;
had issue:

6. Thomas Docwra (1519-1602), of Putteridge.

Gjest

Re: CP Omission? - Hodleston

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 mai 2006 20:24:15

WJhonson@aol.com schrieb:

In a message dated 5/30/06 8:22:45 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
mjcar@btinternet.com writes:

7c. Sir John Hudleston, MP for Cumberland, 7 Edward IV; monument in
Millom Church; died at an advanced age; IPM 1495; married [?Joan].
Issue:

That she is Joan Stapleton dau of Katherine de la Pole by Miles Stapleton
is stated in
Living Descendents of Blood Royal, Vol 2, "Volborth", pg 786-789, Count
d'Angerville; World Nobility, London. 1962

Actually, I believe that Joan, daughter of Miles Stapleton, married Sir
John Hudleston the younger (d 1512), the son of Sir John Hudleston MP
(d 1495).

Gjest

Re: Brenchley?peplesham/

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 mai 2006 20:28:02

In a message dated 5/30/06 9:33:38 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
charcsmith@verizon.net writes:

<< Margery Peplesham Cralle Batisford left her heir as grandson Roger
Fiennes, son of daughter Elizabeth . Elizabeth is a Cralle and 1/2 sister to the
Batisford girls. Later there is a legal document between Roger Fiennes and Joan
Batisford Brenchley. >>

What is the proof that Elizabeth is a Cralle ?
Thanks
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: CP Omission? - Hodleston

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 mai 2006 20:48:02

In a message dated 5/30/06 8:22:45 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
mjcar@btinternet.com writes:

<< 2a. Sir John de Hudleston, son and heir; ff 1292-1311; summoned as a
baron, 1297; served in the Scottish campaigns of Edward I (see Knights
of Edward I); married Sibyl, daughter of Sir Lawrence FitzRichard de
Cornwall (illegitimate son of Richard, Earl of Cornwall, himself
younger son of King John). Issue: >>

Was this Lawrence FitzRichard de Cornwall the uterine brother of Richard de
Cornwall of Thunnock ?

Thanks
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: CP Omission? - Hodleston

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 mai 2006 20:52:25

WJhonson@aol.com schrieb:

In a message dated 5/30/06 8:22:45 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
mjcar@btinternet.com writes:

2a. Sir John de Hudleston, son and heir; ff 1292-1311; summoned as a
baron, 1297; served in the Scottish campaigns of Edward I (see Knights
of Edward I); married Sibyl, daughter of Sir Lawrence FitzRichard de
Cornwall (illegitimate son of Richard, Earl of Cornwall, himself
younger son of King John). Issue:

Was this Lawrence FitzRichard de Cornwall the uterine brother of Richard de
Cornwall of Thunnock ?

(My original reply to this appears to have disappeared...)

Lawrence's maternity is unknown, although Annette Hudleston Harwood
alerted me to a contemporary reference which may have a clue: according
to the Cockersands Cartulary, he was called a kinsman by one 'William
de Arundel'.

MA-R

Gjest

Re: CP Omission? - Hodleston

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 mai 2006 21:04:02

In a message dated 5/30/06 8:22:45 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
mjcar@btinternet.com writes:

<< 7a. Agnes Hudleston, married William Greene; parents of Thomas Greene
of Gressingham, Lancs (Vis. Herts); ancestors inter alia of the Docwras
of Putteridge, Herts >>

Does someone have the specifics on how these Greenes descend to the Docwras
of Putteridge? Thanks.
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: CP Omission? - Hodleston

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 mai 2006 21:06:41

In a message dated 5/30/06 8:22:45 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
mjcar@btinternet.com writes:

<< 7c. Sir John Hudleston, MP for Cumberland, 7 Edward IV; monument in
Millom Church; died at an advanced age; IPM 1495; married [?Joan].
Issue: >>

That she is Joan Stapleton dau of Katherine de la Pole by Miles Stapleton
is stated in
Living Descendents of Blood Royal, Vol 2, "Volborth", pg 786-789, Count
d'Angerville; World Nobility, London. 1962

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: CP Omission? - Hodleston

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 mai 2006 21:21:41

WJhonson@aol.com schrieb:

In a message dated 5/30/06 8:22:45 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
mjcar@btinternet.com writes:

2a. Sir John de Hudleston, son and heir; ff 1292-1311; summoned as a
baron, 1297; served in the Scottish campaigns of Edward I (see Knights
of Edward I); married Sibyl, daughter of Sir Lawrence FitzRichard de
Cornwall (illegitimate son of Richard, Earl of Cornwall, himself
younger son of King John). Issue:

Was this Lawrence FitzRichard de Cornwall the uterine brother of Richard de
Cornwall of Thunnock ?

Lawrence's maternity is unknown, although a clue may be offered in a
contemporary document in which he is called "kinsman" by 'William de
Arundel'; Annette Hudleston Harwood, who provided this reference (as
well as much of the material on which my posted pedigree is based),
cites it as "Records of Kendal, Vol II, p 419", and "Chart[ulary] of
Cockersand (Chetham Soc 973)" [sic].

MA-R

Ford Mommaerts-Browne

Re: Galla Placida Two more lines of descent

Legg inn av Ford Mommaerts-Browne » 30 mai 2006 21:22:01

This is not the correct link. IF people are going to give wikilinks, one needs to actually go to the site, not use the link that shows when they have completed the upload.

----- Original Message -----
From: "MLS" <cannalonga@email.it>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 9:04 AM
Subject: RE: Galla Placida Two more lines of descent


| Dear Ford and Jean Luc,
|
| At this link
| http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/i ... na_Valenti
| nia_%2811613%29_to_duke_and_marquis_don_Marco_II_Lupis.jpg I posted TO
| MORE lines of descent fron Galla Placidia to myself, VIA Valentinian
| III.
|
| What do you think about it?
|
| Wait to read your thoughts
|
| Marco
|
|
|
| -----Original Message-----
| From: Ford Mommaerts-Browne [mailto:FordMommaerts@Cox.net]
| Sent: Monday, May 29, 2006 4:19 AM
| To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
| Subject: Re: Galla Placida
|
|
| ----- Original Message -----
| From: "jlucsoler" <jlucsoler@modulonet.fr>
| To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
| Sent: Sunday, May 28, 2006 5:30 PM
| Subject: Re: Galla Placida
|
|
| | some years ago we were told here that Galla Placidia Had one only boys
|
| | know
| | and surely another one with Athaulf and those children died in
| childhood
| | without posterity
| |
| | the line to the north and the"vickings" is fantasy...
| |
| | now is there a link with Valentinian III ?
| |
| | maybe.... i think Stanford and Christian could emit hypothesis...
| |
| | But nothing of course is proven!!!
|
|
| Here's one possibility:
|
| Galla Placidia, m. 2) Fl. Constantius III, Emp. 421
| Valentinian III, Emp. 425-455, m. Eudoxia
| Placidia, m. (455) Anicius Olybrius, Emp. 472
| Anicia Juliana, m. Fl. Areobinda Dagalaiphus, cos. 434
| Fl. Anicius Olybrius, cos. 491, m. Eirene of Constantinople Proba, m.
| Probus of Constantinople Juliana, m. 2?) Anastasius of Constantinople
| Placidia, m. Ioannes Mystakon, Gen. ca. 585 anonymus Arshakunik Manuel
| Arshakunik, magister anonyma, m. Smbat V Bagratid, Pr. Bagratids,
| spatharokandidatos, drongarios, & kyropalates
|
|
|
|
| --
| Email.it, the professional e-mail, gratis per te: http://www.email.it/f
|
| Sponsor:
| Conto Arancio: 3.50% per tutto il 2006! Scopri come
| Clicca qui: http://adv.email.it/cgi-bin/foclick.cgi?mid=5043&d=30-5
|
|

Gjest

Re: CP Omission? - Hodleston

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 mai 2006 21:22:14

WJhonson@aol.com schrieb:

In a message dated 5/30/06 12:22:06 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
mjcar@btinternet.com writes:

4b. James Docwra, of Hitchen, Herts, died circa 1497; married Catherine
Haselden; had issue:

5. John Docwra, of Temple Dinsley; died 1531; married Anne St George;
had issue:


Tudorplace.Ar gives "abt 1446" for the birth of James Docwra of Hitchen's
mother-in-law Elizabeth (Cheney) Hasilden

If that can be trusted then James Docwra of Hitchen was perhaps born in the
period 1440/1480. Do you have anything that can pin his age down better?

Only that his brother, Sir Thomas Docwra, was active in the Order of St
John before 1494, and possibly as early as 1480. I have the following
tentative dates:

1. Sir Richard Hudleston, born circa 1380
2. Agnes Hudleston, born circa 1400-1410
3. Thomas Greene, born circa 1418-1430
4. Alice Greene, born circa 1440-1450
5. Thomas & James Docwra, born circa 1458-1475

James Docwra's widow, Catherine, remarried Ralph Lane, and was living
in 1531, when she was named in her son's will.

MA-R

Gjest

Re: CP Omission? - Hodleston

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 mai 2006 21:31:34

WJhonson@aol.com schrieb:

In a message dated 5/30/06 12:37:27 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
mjcar@btinternet.com writes:

Actually, I believe that Joan, daughter of Miles Stapleton, married Sir
John Hudleston the younger (d 1512), the son of Sir John Hudleston MP
(d 1495).

What they give is that the eldes married Joan Stapleton and the younger
married Joan FitzHugh "daughter of Lord FitzHugh"

But they cite no sources. Reviewing the families, I think I agree that it
makes more sense that it was the younger one who married Joan (Stapleton) the
widow. She was m abt 1367 and had at least four children before Sir Christopher
Harcourt died in 1474. To make her the mother of six more children *after*
that is troubling, but not impossible.
I'm going to change my database to reflect how you have it. In most of
the Living Descendents pedigrees they cite line-item sources, but for some
reason not on this one.

There is much confusion over the names of the various Hudleston wives;
the Visitation pedigrees, for instance, are hopelessly muddled. The
North Country Wills reference that I cite, however, makes it clear that
Joan Stapleton married the younger Sir John Hudleston; this is
confirmed by their arms, which were erected in stone at Hayles Abbey,
and which I saw (and photographed, if anyone is interested) there
earlier this month.

MA-R

Ford Mommaerts-Browne

Re: Matronymics, [was: Anglo-Saxon kings in England]

Legg inn av Ford Mommaerts-Browne » 30 mai 2006 21:36:01

----- Original Message -----
From: "Todd A. Farmerie" <farmerie@interfold.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 1:04 PM
Subject: Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England


| WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
| > In a message dated 5/26/06 4:26:43 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Jwc1870@aol.com
| > writes:
| >
| > << Yes , Sweyn II Estrithson, King of Denmark in the same as
| > Sweyn Ulfson. >>
| >
| > That's odd. I had had him in my database with a father, hopefully called
| > "Estrith" not it turns out that was his mother. Was that common? That they
| > could be known as the "son" of either parent? I just assumed the patrynomic (is
| > that what it's called?) was always in reference to the father.
|
| The best analogy is King Henry II of England, called Henry Fitz Empress
| to highlight his claim, not Henry Fitz Geoffrey.
|
| I know of a few other examples of a matronymic (if you will). Robert
| Fitz Wymarch comes immediately to mind. In the Scandinavian world, "the
| sons of Lothbrok" which appears on an Orkney monument seems (based on
| grammar) to be a reference to their mother, and I have sean it
| speculated that Earl Siward's father, Bjorn 'Bearson" might have been
| Berasson, Bera being his mother's name (this original prominance of the
| mother, and hence lack of knowledge later on of the father, may also
| have given rise to the National Enquirer-like story of his beastial
| paternity).
|
| taf

Actually, Todd, I think that you mean _The Weekly World News_. They are the ones with 'Bat Boy', 'Lizard Baby', Bigfoot's numerous love-children, the offspring of space-aliens and demon-possessed toilet bowls. Oops! That last one isn't genealogical - but it is just too entertaining to pass-up. Must be a great job to have that requires one go in stoned, drunk and high.

Gjest

Re: CP Omission? - Hodleston

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 mai 2006 22:07:02

In a message dated 5/30/06 12:22:06 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
mjcar@btinternet.com writes:

<< 4b. James Docwra, of Hitchen, Herts, died circa 1497; married Catherine
Haselden; had issue:

5. John Docwra, of Temple Dinsley; died 1531; married Anne St George;
had issue: >>


Tudorplace.Ar gives "abt 1446" for the birth of James Docwra of Hitchen's
mother-in-law Elizabeth (Cheney) Hasilden

If that can be trusted then James Docwra of Hitchen was perhaps born in the
period 1440/1480. Do you have anything that can pin his age down better?

Thanks
Will

Gjest

Re: CP Omission? - Hodleston

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 mai 2006 22:14:02

In a message dated 5/30/06 12:37:27 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
mjcar@btinternet.com writes:

<< Actually, I believe that Joan, daughter of Miles Stapleton, married Sir
John Hudleston the younger (d 1512), the son of Sir John Hudleston MP
(d 1495). >>

What they give is that the eldes married Joan Stapleton and the younger
married Joan FitzHugh "daughter of Lord FitzHugh"

But they cite no sources. Reviewing the families, I think I agree that it
makes more sense that it was the younger one who married Joan (Stapleton) the
widow. She was m abt 1367 and had at least four children before Sir Christopher
Harcourt died in 1474. To make her the mother of six more children *after*
that is troubling, but not impossible.
I'm going to change my database to reflect how you have it. In most of
the Living Descendents pedigrees they cite line-item sources, but for some
reason not on this one.

Will

Gjest

Re: Bertrada de Blancminster, daughter of Amice de Audley

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 mai 2006 22:52:02

And is Eva FitzWarin the same named person who was widow of Oliver de Tracy
and secondly of Thomas de London ?

Thanks
Will

Hal Bradley

RE: Bertrada de Blancminster, daughter of Amice de Audley

Legg inn av Hal Bradley » 30 mai 2006 23:19:01

No. They were aunt and niece.

Hal Bradley

-----Original Message-----
From: WJhonson@aol.com [mailto:WJhonson@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 1:50 PM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Bertrada de Blancminster, daughter of Amice de Audley



And is Eva FitzWarin the same named person who was widow of
Oliver de Tracy
and secondly of Thomas de London ?

Thanks
Will

Gjest

Re: Sir William Brenchley (d1406)

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 mai 2006 23:37:02

In a message dated 5/30/06 5:52:35 AM Pacific Daylight Time, usenet@mcsuk.net
writes:

<< "If we can believe Edward Hasted's History of Kent (1793), the manor of
Benenden was passed on via a female heiress, Joane de Benenden (who died
without issue in 1453), she having married Sir William Brenchley, chief justice of
common pleas (d. 1446). It thereafter passed to Margaret, the daughter and
coheir of John Brenchley, esq., by Margaret Golding, his wife (she being the
daughter and heiress of Richard Golding). Margaret Brenchley married
William Moore (during the 21st year of King Henry VI) and the manor thereafter
continued for some time in the Moore/More/de la More family." >>

THIS throws the whole thing topsy-turvy in my view.
Now the possibility arises that Joan with the 1453 is *not* the widow of the
elder William Brenchley but the widow of some younger one, perhaps son of the
older one.

That would allow for the the rather unappetizing idea that she lived a widow
for 47 years while she was still at the most 39 years old and possibly as
young as 30.

So the line needs to be reviewed again with an eye on the primary
documentation to see if there might not be two William de Brenchley's who possibly both
married Joan's.

Will Johnson

Louise Staley

Re: Bertrada de Blancminster, daughter of Amice de Audley

Legg inn av Louise Staley » 30 mai 2006 23:49:53

Hal Bradley wrote:
No. They were aunt and niece.

Hal Bradley

Will Johnson wrote:

And is Eva FitzWarin the same named person who was widow of
Oliver de Tracy
and secondly of Thomas de London ?

Thanks
Will


Dear Will,

From my database, I show the following, (note there may be other
children of these families I do not have):


Descendants of Fulk II Fitzwarine
---------------------------------
1-Fulk II Fitzwarine d. 1197
+Hawis Dinham co-heiress of Westbury Priory d. After 1226
|--2-Sir Fulk III Fitzwarine Knt., of Lambourn, Whittington &
| Alveston b. Bef 1178, d. 1258
| +Maud Vavasour d. Bef 1226
| |--3-Sir Fulk IV Fitzwarine d. 14 May 1264, Lewes, SSX, ENG
| | +Constance Toeni b. Between Jul 1233 and Jan 1237, d. 11 Feb
| | 1266
| | |--4-Sir Fulk V Fitzwarine Baron Fitzwarin 1st b. 14 Sep 1251,
| | | Whittington, SAL, ENG, d. 24 Nov 1315
| |--3-Eva Fitzwarine
| +William Blancminster d. Bef 1260
| |--4-Joan Blancminster co-heiress of Blancminster d. , s.p.
| |--4-Maud Blancminster co-heiress of Blancminster
| |--4-Eleanor Blancminster co-heiress of Blancminster b. Bef
| | 1251, d. 1306, Ercall Magna, SAL, ENG
| +Clarice Auberville heiress d. After 8 Oct 1250
| |--3-Mabel Fitzwarine d. Bef 24 May 1297
| +William Crevecoeur d. Bef 6 Apr 1263, v.p. & s.p.
| +Sir John Tregoz Baron Tregoz 1st b. Abt 1250, d. 21 Aug 1300,
| s.p.m.
| |--4-Clarice Tregoz co-heiress b. Bef Jan 1262
| |--4-Sibyl Tregoz co-heiress b. Between 1270 and 1271, d. 21
| | Oct 1334, (Dore, HEF, ENG)
|--2-Eva Fitzwarine
| +Sir Oliver Tracy d. 1211
| |--3-Eva Tracy
| +Warin Bassingbourne
| +Thomas Londres Lord of Kidwelly d. Bef 1221
| |--3-Hawis Londres d. 1274
| +Walter Breuse d. Bef 14 Jan 1234
| +Henry Truberville Seneschal of Gascony d. 1240
| +Patrick Chaworth Lord of Kempsford d. 1258
| |--4-Eva Chaworth b. 1252, d. Abt 30 Aug 1300
| |--4-Sir Patrick Chaworth Lord of Kempsford b. 1254, d. Bef 7
| | Jul 1283
|--2-Eudo Fitzwarine
| +
|--2-Eugenia Fitzwarine
+Thomas Mauduit of Warminster b. Abt 1183, d. After 28 Jul 1244
|--3-William Mauduit of Warminster d. Abt 4 Apr 1264
+
|--4-Thomas Mauduit of Warminster b. After 1243, d. Abt 1271
---------------------------------

Gjest

Re: Bertrada de Blancminster, daughter of Amice de Audley

Legg inn av Gjest » 31 mai 2006 00:08:02

In a message dated 5/30/06 11:01:04 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
hw.bradley@verizon.net writes:

<< She is also described in several
charters as a daughter of Roger de Albo Monasterio, Sire de Blancmostiers.
For instance, John FitzPhilip granted to Eva, daughter of Roger de Albo
Monasterio, and John de Chetwynd, her son, certain woodlands at Barlaston
between Berryhill and Cokenegge (Cocknage), for which she paid him ten
pounds in silver. ....
<snipped>
There is some confusion in this account as Eve Fitz Warin, widow of
Llywelyn, married William, not Roger de Blancminster. William's mother, Lucy
Toret, was granddaughter of Bertram Haget. Unfortunately, as with most
secondary accounts of this nature, there is little in the way of
documentation. >>

Possibly, but the specific reference to Barlaston and "Roger de Albo
Monasterio" could be traced back to its source presumably. And then we could know if
it really says Roger, and if it really says "daughter"

Will

Gjest

Re: Sir Wm Brenchley

Legg inn av Gjest » 31 mai 2006 00:47:02

In a message dated 5/30/06 3:35:15 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
charcsmith@verizon.net writes:

<< From the article: Stained Glass Windows of Nettlestead Church--Suissex
Arc Soc.
page 329: There are the arms of Sir William Brenchley and his wife Joan,
the daughrer of Sir William Batisford. Sir William Brechley was a Justice of
the Court of Common Pleas. By his marriage he became conneted as shown
above(arms of Brenchley and Batisford) with the families of Cheney, Fiennes and
Etchingham etc >>

So once again we have dueling secondary sources.
Two sources say things which are contradictory.
I'm not sure that the stained glass windows of Nettlestead actually state
themselves who the arms are for, this is probably a supposition by the person who
wrote the book trying to explain the arms they are seeing.

This has to be put aside. The focus should be on the descent of the Manor of
Benenden which descent has a great probability of throwing much light on the
situation. I can't see to find much useful on A2A but I'm not the greatest at
using that service.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Bertrada de Blancminster, daughter of Amice de Audley

Legg inn av Gjest » 31 mai 2006 01:15:02

In a message dated 5/30/06 3:52:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
caramut@bigpond.com writes:

<< | |--3-Mabel Fitzwarine d. Bef 24 May 1297
| +William Crevecoeur d. Bef 6 Apr 1263, v.p. & s.p.
| +Sir John Tregoz Baron Tregoz 1st b. Abt 1250, d. 21 Aug 1300,
| s.p.m.
| |--4-Clarice Tregoz co-heiress b. Bef Jan 1262
| |--4-Sibyl Tregoz co-heiress b. Between 1270 and 1271, d. 21
| | Oct 1334, (Dore, HEF, ENG) >>

Thanks Louise for this data, it helps me sort it all out.
In the above you have one chronologic problem with John Tregoz b abt 1250 and
his daughter Clarice b bef Jan 1262 when he would have been 10 or 11 himself.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: William Brenchley

Legg inn av Gjest » 31 mai 2006 01:31:02

In a message dated 5/30/06 8:35:25 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
charcsmith@verizon.net writes:

<< Joan left a will made 6 Aug 1453 and in it she mentions Dame Elizabeth
Lewknor, and Thomas Hoo , squire, John of Codying the elder and John Codying
the younger. >>

The will of Joan Brenchley which was posted on this thread does not mention
any Codying's. Do you have another version of that will?
Thanks
Will Johnson

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